Arahants Redefined, or Not - Dhamma Wheel

Arahants redefined, or not?
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nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009
3:11 am

by nathan Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:41 am
P
o
Many
very sincere lay people are under the impression that Arahants are extremely rare
s
extinct
these days and then there are those who think otherwise. Within the buddhist
t
or else
community there are two basic divisions of thought on the subject of those who are awakened.
Those who think it should not be made known and not discussed and those who do. It is not
hard to find those who consider the discussion of fruition taboo, they predominate. Those who
do not are in the minority and among these there are only a handful who are willing to speak
of fruitions and an even smaller group who will speak of themselves as arahants.
If you examine what some of these few publicly self-declared arahants have to say about what
an arahant is and is not it tends to harmonize very well with current philosophical thinking on
non-dualism which has become fairly widely accepted these days within many buddhist and
other circles. On the other hand it does not harmonize well with classical Theravada
conceptualizations of the Arahant or of full awakening. I have a good sense of what these nondualistic, "after awakening, the laundry" folks think about the traditional views of the nature of
the arahant and I am interested to hear what very experienced and very well versed Theravada
practitioners and particularly longstanding monastics would have to say in response.
On the one hand I have no problems with non-dualism per se but on the other hand it does not
seem to be a form of insight which is particularly dependent on dhamma as a whole at all.
While I can see this being an aspect of awakening I cannot see how the more full sort of
liberation or the kind of complete transformation detailed in the abandoning of all of the
taints can simply be dispensed with as mistaken. The sort of awakening described by these
kinds of 'fully awakened people' seems relatively mundane in comparison. There may be
accretions of irrelevant concepts here and there within Theravada but on something as
important as this kind of definition of the nature of arahantship I find it difficult to accept that
the traditional understanding regarding the taints can simply be set aside in favor of stages of
doing away with an internal perception of duality and little else. Perhaps it is so and perhaps
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=716&p=8569[25/8/2558 23:30:50]
Arahants redefined, or not? - Dhamma Wheel
not, it is certainly a POV that is slowly rising to the foreground. I think that those who think
otherwise had better put together a clear and coherent response to this in a way which is at
least as reasonable and insightful as that of those who pose these challenges or I else think this
will inevitably become the predominant view of the nature of full awakening, at least in the
west.
For those who do not know of any examples of this other perspective, have a look in this forum.
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/
I am curious how these challenges to traditional conceptions of the arahant would be answered
from within a mature Theravada outlook. I am not at all interested in reading any negative
personal comments about any of these people so please restrict this to the ideas involved and
do not make any targeted comments about anyone in particular.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of
thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti
115}
o
p
nathan
Posts: 692
3:11 am
Re: Arahants redefined, or not?

by nathan Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:07 pm
P
I'mo not sure how to interpret the silence
s
been
unclear.
t
here so far except that perhaps my questions have
I am all for sound reasoning in conformity with the teachings. The clarity and precision in the
prosaic language of our times has done a lot to foster that. But I also think that the urge to
reinvent or reform things, even dhamma, is more the expression of a restless age which can let
nothing be than it can be the product of awakened minds who both realize and acknowledge
timeless truths.
I suppose the Arahant issues can be looked at in many ways. Expectations regarding Bhikkhu
Arahants should probably be a little different from expectations regarding Lay Arahants. It may
be that some of the conceptualizations of the taints in the Buddha's lifetime were a bit
different from the way we conceptualize the same terms today. But we should be able to sort
some of this out to a fair extent. On the one hand I am all for a more clear understanding of
just what is abandoned and what is not as the four Noble Paths unfold. On the other hand I am
not for a completely secularized dhamma which omits important elements of the teachings,
the practices and the fruitions.
Probably, for me, all of this questioning of the nature of fully awakened beings hinges on the
question of what is and isn't an expression of Disillusionment, Dispassion and Renunciation.
In the sutta's we see some very austere and stoic portrayals of the personalities or characters of
Arahants. Portrayals sometimes so unflinching that they can appear almost inhuman. In our
own times we may encounter those who claim to be or are said to be fully awakened who can
at times seem almost unaltered in terms of how very human and even flawed their behavior
may appear and how fully involved in the world they can seem to be.
There must be a reasonable outlook that includes room for the kinds of diversity of
accomplishments apart from full awakening that are also particular to the capacities and
qualities of the fully awakened. There must also be a reasonable outlook that includes room
for the kinds of diversity in the conditions remaining in the life and being of one who is fully
awakened. At the same time there must be a consistently correct understanding of just how
qualities of disillusionment, dispassion and renunciation which is complete and comprehensive
would be operative in the beings of and expressed in the lives of the fully awakened. If we find
we are unwilling to allow for the ongoing humanity of the still living and fully awakened then I
feel we do everyone a disservice and if we either knowingly or unknowingly misrepresent what
the qualities of disillusionment, dispassion and renunciation actually are and how these
actually function, then we are misleading ourselves as well.
There are some kinds of absolute difference or distinction which should demarcate the fully
awakened from the worldly. Even if these differences are in many respects untraceable, where
there is a meeting with the world and with the worldly we should be able to note some kinds
of observable distinctions in body, speech and mind. It is very difficult to determine the range
of how these inner changes might find external expression but there must be some sort of
common and consistent characteristics that we can make more clear in our own minds than we
often seem to have done at present.
In working towards any goal it is best for us if we can have appropriate aims and expectations
which neither fall short of nor overshoot the real goal which in this case is simply Full
Awakening. It seems entirely reasonable that the fully awakened, although having no false
identifications and delusional impulses with regards to their qualities and functions, still have
many remaining qualities and functions. Feelings and thoughts continue even if a number of
the responses to these have ended. If there is a change in psycho-emotional makeup, it is not
the complete extinction of thoughts and emotion but a change in the makeup of thoughts and
emotions, in how these functions are experienced and in how these faculties are employed by
the awakened.
115}
o
p

by tiltbillings Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:19 pm
P
o
Non-dualism
is a funny thing. I personally think it is not something one should in step in,
s
because
then one will track it all over, stinking up the place. Also, there is nothing more
t
dualistic than someone going on about non-dualism.

tiltbillings
Posts: 21267
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
More importantly to this thread, an experience of what one might think is non-dual can lead to
all sorts of assumptions about what one experienced and about one's level of attainment.
So, the questions are, I think, what is awakening, who has it and how do we know?
.
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should
that mean that it is not real? HPatDH p.723
o
p

nathan
Posts: 692
3:11 am

by nathan Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:46 pm
P
o
s
tiltbillings wrote:
t
Non-dualism is a funny thing. I personally think it is not something one should in step in, because
then one will track it all over, stinking up the place. Also, there is nothing more dualistic than
someone going on about non-dualism.
More importantly to this thread, an experience of what one might think is non-dual can lead to
all sorts of assumptions about what one experienced and about one's level of attainment.
So, the questions are, I think, what is awakening, who has it and how do we know?
Yes these are the central questions and we can define these things according to the texts and
teaching traditions. It may be helpful to do so here. When it comes to how and what we
perceive I think the questions do not center here. For instance, on the one hand we have very
accomplished monks who have been practicing for many long years and according to our
teachings they should have become Arahants within seven of those years. So Arahants of this
sort should therefore be quite abundant, even now. However, even the slightest expression of
emotion or personality by some of these people is regarded as evidence of their still not having
become Arahants. Is this really true? Is this an accurate interpretation of dispassion? And again,
we have those who have practiced very well, who have profound insight and who are willing to
express a complete openness about these processes and who are willing to bring much clarity
to many things. But they can also often be difficult to accept as fully enlightened when their
lives seem to overstep what we may think is possible for Arahants. According to the tradition,
arahants cannot engage in worldly activities to the extent of maintaining marital relations,
worldly employment and so on. So the challenge here is to make certain about what is sound
doctrine and what is mere dogma and delusion.
I am inclining towards the thinking that this all comes down to how renunciation functions as a
quality on the path to arahantship and how renunciation expresses itself after one is an
arahant. If this can be made VERY CLEAR it will serve as a very good guideline to how we
should interpret our perceptions of others, be they worldly or Noble.
115}
o
p

by cooran Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:09 am
P
o
Hello
Nathan,
s
t
cooran
Posts: 8183
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009
11:32 pm
Location: Queensland,
Australia
nathan said: For instance, on the one hand we have very accomplished monks who have been
practicing for many long years and according to our teachings they should have become
Arahants within seven of those years.
Could you point out the Sutta where the Buddha taught this please?
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time-----Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe-----It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --o
p
nathan
Posts: 692
3:11 am

by nathan Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:05 am
P
o
s
Chris wrote:
t
Hello Nathan,
nathan said: For instance, on the one hand we have very accomplished monks who have
been practicing for many long years and according to our teachings they should have
become Arahants within seven of those years.
Could you point out the Sutta where the Buddha taught this please?
metta
Chris
Certainly. I take the following as the assurance of the Buddha that those who are diligent in
this occupation will see the fruits of their labor. Note the use of the terms "any person".
Assurance of Attainment
"O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for
seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge
(arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of nonreturning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment).
"O bhikkhus, let alone seven years. Should a person maintain these Four Arousings of
Mindfulness, in this manner, for six years... for five years... four years... three years... two
years... one year, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: knowledge here
and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.
"O bhikkhus, let alone a year. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness,
in the manner, for seven months, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected:
Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of nonreturning.
"O bhikkhus, let alone seven months. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of
Mindfulness in this manner for six months... five months... four months... three months... two
months... one month... half-a-month, then, by him one of two fruitions is proper to be
expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of
non-returning.
"O bhikkhus, let alone half-a-month. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of
Mindfulness in this manner for a week, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be
expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of
non-returning.
"Because of this was it said: 'This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for
the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for
reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of
Mindfulness."
Thus spoke the Blessed One. Satisfied, the bhikkhus approved of his words.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html
115}
o
p
nathan
Posts: 692
3:11 am

P
o
I suppose
I could have been more precise about some of the differences in degree of fruition
s
but
t still it is said that there will be those who will know the final fruition. I would like to focus
less here on the full awakening directly and the insights involved in the path to wisdom and
focus more on what we understand of other important parts of the process connected with
virtue, sense desire, etc.. Basicly, how we conceive of renunciation, our expectations of how it
should be practiced and what aspects of this renuncation is a natural result of the path as
opposed to that which is a practice of the path. We do not well understand any of the options
available to the Arahant when practice and living have become so fully aligned.
One may say they are free to turn left or right at the crossroads while another may say they are
compelled to only turn right, etc..
"This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow
and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the
attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness."
Often, in discussions about what Arahants are and are not there are very strong views arising
from our conceptions of "the purification of beings" and what this entails. This and "the
overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief" have much to
do with our conceptions regarding the makeup and behavior of the fully awakened.
115}
o
p

by cooran Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:38 am
P
o
Hello
Nathan,
s
t
Thank you. I don't think there is anywhere else in the Canon where the Buddha seems to talk
specifically about Time.
cooran
Posts: 8183
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009
11:32 pm
Location: Queensland,
Australia
I think the clue is in the words "in this manner" - which refers back to the whole of the
preceding Sutta. MN 10. The fact that the Buddha goes down in a sequence to "Should any
person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for a week, then by him
one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of
clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning."
~~~ so ... it is not an easy thing to do, and this would seem to mean that very few can maintain
practice "in this manner" for even two weeks.
And, of course, the Sutta really means that Time doesn't come into it .... for those who
extinguish the Three Poisons by practising in the proper manner, Liberation takes just a
second.
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time-----Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe-----It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it --o
p
nathan
Posts: 692
3:11 am

P
o
s
Chris wrote:
t
Hello Nathan,
Thank you. I don't think there is anywhere else in the Canon where the Buddha seems to talk
specifically about Time.
I think the clue is in the words "in this manner" - which refers back to the whole of the
preceding Sutta. MN 10. The fact that the Buddha goes down in a sequence to "Should any
person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for a week, then by him one
of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging
is yet present, the state of non-returning."
~~~ so ... it is not an easy thing to do, and this would seem to mean that very few can maintain
practice "in this manner" for even two weeks.
And, of course, the Sutta really means that Time doesn't come into it .... for those who
extinguish the Three Poisons by practising in the proper manner, Liberation takes just a second.
metta
Chris
I don't think it is the time involved that is of particular concern so much as one's assurance that
a committed practice will bear fruit in due course, that it will be efficacious work because it is
work. "This manner" is clear and well outlined. It is elsewhere presented in great detail in
many ways throughout the dhamma/vinaya. One may set to it immediately and without
difficulty at any time. If one can maintain themselves in any manner, they can maintain
themselves in this manner.
Yes, the culmination of this maintenance of right mindfulness in the Arahant fruition would be
arrived at in one moment. That the process leading up to it would be especially brief is far
more unlikely than would be the obtaining of a correct understanding of right practice and the
establishment of right practice in short order. I do not think correctly understanding and
maintaining the practice need be difficult at all. It proceeds with ease or with difficulty but it
is like any work under various internal and external conditions in that sense.
Given all of the other things that people choose to commit to these days in contrast to the
potential for a monk or recluse to simply and strictly do this work, there is little doubt that
even a little progress will take a long time. In this context the expectation that realization
would take only a moment is far more of a leap than the expectation that the development of
insights and enlightenment qualities would progress very, very gradually. The Buddha speaks
generally of a graduated process of development within whatever timeframes be these days or
many lifetimes. Perhaps you can find some references this time if you wish to explore this
gradual development process. The path process should be well distinguished from the initial
moment of Arahant fruition. Whenever that moment occurs the same process precedes it.
My interest here is in focusing on how the qualities of purification and renunciation factor into
this process of development both before that final fruition and after. It would be most
beneficial to well understand how we are to practice for our purification and how we are to
practice renunciation for our liberation. Then we will have a well founded understanding of
how this developed or perfected purification and renunciation should manifest both internally
and externally. I would like some help with making this clear in this thread. It would be better
to find my thinking in agreement with the teachings, the learned in the dhamma and with
other committed practitioners than to be found holding to some peculiar notions of purity and
renunciation which are purely my own.
115}
o
p

by retrofuturist Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:23 am
P
o
Greetings
Nathan,
s
t
nathan wrote:
I find it difficult to accept that the traditional understanding regarding the taints can simply be
set aside in favor of stages of doing away with an internal perception of duality and little else.
retrofuturist
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9:52 pm
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Australia
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nathan
Posts: 692
I agree with you - this is nonsense. All this is, is seeing things clearly (i.e. without ignorance)
for a moment... the taints need to be uprooted totally otherwise there will be many moments
in the future where one still has moments of delusion.
Metta,
Retro.
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one
is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but
that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)
I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing,
blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes. (MN 31)
Never again...
o
p

P

3:11 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Greetings Nathan,
nathan wrote:
I find it difficult to accept that the traditional understanding regarding the taints can
simply be set aside in favor of stages of doing away with an internal perception of duality
and little else.
I agree with you - this is nonsense. All this is, is seeing things clearly (i.e. without ignorance) for
a moment... the taints need to be uprooted totally otherwise there will be many moments in
the future where one still has moments of delusion.
Metta,
Retro.
I was not trying to suggest nonsense but roughly indicate two polarities in thinking about our
understanding of awakening and the awakened. Actually, I didn't write 'for a moment' but
rather 'stages of doing away' with misperception and by implication the underlying degrees of
ignorance. Characterizing this on the one hand as little more than entirely non-dualistic
perception and the end of dualistic misconceptions and on the other hand as a restrictive
inhuman stoicism were more like caricatures. A use of imagery for common polarities in our
attitudes about awakening and the nature of the awakened. Sometimes the comments I read
about how arahants are conceived of as being seem very much like cartoons to me. I might
have attempted some more complex or accurate description but I would have to think long and
hard about how to phrase the question in some sort of technically precise way and it is largely
about attitudes and how our thinking about doctrine informs these. We must include what we
know about human beings, even in a mundane sense to be rational as well. The two kinds of
truths about our existence, the mundane wisdom and the supermundane wisdom are not in
opposition but complements, understanding of both kinds is complete understanding.
What I was aiming at exploring is the process of purification and renunciation involved in
leading to the perfection of wisdom equated with full self-liberation. So the real issue here is
not so much perception as action in terms of the efficacy of intentions in leading up to the
first fruition, from the point of first fruition through the stages of the path, prior to and in
terms of it's resultant nature and the natural limits of functioning for the resultant conditions
for intention after the full awakening. Clearly, intent as a quality of being is not gone in the
awakened. They can think discursively and they can make choices and act. They are not robots
with no motivation to live but what can they think or not, what can they feel or not and what
might they do or not. These are the questions that surround our perceptions of those who we
hope to be the accomplished among us, who can wisely advise us and it is important to me to
understand how to recognize both their Noble awakened nature and their still common and
mundane humanity. And to know the difference.
The questions here are not regarding the path to understanding but the path to purification and
liberation in this sense. It is my sense here that there must be not only a liberation from mind
and consciousness but also from feeling and senses so there are conditions for a full release
from becoming. In understanding the nature of this release and the conditions which conform
to this we should be able to understand the parameters of actions for a fully awakened one.
Obviously there are many faculties beyond fully awakening. So there is confusion about how
much ignorance remains and the nature of this ignorance. If we are looking for a model of
perfection we have the Buddha but for those of lesser development we have lower
expectations and it is in this respect that there is much confusion and disagreement.
So, I expect that from those with access to the commentaries and who are learned there should
be some perspective on these questions. In the Tipitaka as variously accessible to us all there
will also be much that can help us to understand correctly.
I see so many silly approaches to this subject in threads which are quite oblique to the key
issues involved such as 'can Arahants cry', laugh or fart or whatever. People have very strong
views about such trivia. What can we know that is important to know? Do people feel that
these things should come down to a matter of personal opinion or are there clear and detailed
doctrines we can explore. If there is no interest I tend to simply look into things more deeply
for myself, but I find it odd that it is usually superficial investigations and misunderstandings
which we have the energy to explore together.
It would be great to know exactly what is meant by "nothing more for this world" when you still
have to brush your teeth every day.
115}
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here so far except that perhaps my questions have

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dualistic than someone going on about non-dualism.

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