Can I Achieve Nirvana When I Don't Believe in Reincarnation

can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel
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can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

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Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010
11:56 am
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe

in Reincarnation
by Nyana Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:52 am
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Goofaholix wrote:
t
I'm afraid in english "pointless" and "no benefit" are pretty much synonyms. so yes this is what
you said.
Again, you're missing the point: There is no possibility of practicing the noble eightfold path
with wrong view, i.e. denying rebirth. It isn't possible. There's no noble path without right
view.
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Reincarnation
by Goofaholix Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:57 am
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a wrote:
t
Again, you're missing the point: There is no possibility of practicing the noble eightfold path with
wrong view, i.e. denying rebirth. It isn't possible. There's no noble path without right view.
Goofaholix
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand
Still waiting for the quote that supplies the smoking gun.
"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is
wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But its difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But
it does not require a great deal of energy. Its relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are
aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11803&p=179067[7/8/2558 11:33:24]
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Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

Reincarnation
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Goofaholix wrote:
t
a wrote:
Again, you're missing the point: There is no possibility of practicing the noble eightfold
path with wrong view, i.e. denying rebirth. It isn't possible. There's no noble path without
right view.
Still waiting for the quote that supplies the smoking gun.
Already addressed. Rebirth is taught throughout the Tipiaka, and denying rebirth is a wrong
view:
a wrote:
But let there be no mistake about it, denying rebirth is indeed a wrong view. MN 117:
And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed.
There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world,
no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives
who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having
directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
Again, it's utterly impossible to engage in the noble eightfold path while holding a wrong view.
This means that it's utterly impossible to attain the path of stream-entry if one denies rebirth.
It's utterly impossible to attain the fruition of stream-entry if one denies rebirth. The same
goes for the higher paths and fruitions.
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Reincarnation
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a wrote:
t
But let there be no mistake about it, denying rebirth is indeed a wrong view. MN 117:
Goofaholix
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009 3:49 am
And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed.
There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world,
no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives
who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having
directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
On the flip side here is evidence how dwelling on past or future lives is wrong view, I belive
such a view is equally as dangerous as the annhialationist;
"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... does not discern what ideas
are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend
to ideas fit for attention, and attends instead to ideas unfit for attention... This is how he
attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How
was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I
not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been
what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate
present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it
bound?'
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I
have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is
precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self
that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self
arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine
the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions is the self of
mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as
eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a
writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-themill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress,
& despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and
what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for
attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... He attends appropriately, This is
stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way
leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are
abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices."
MN 2
The problem in both cases is the fixedness of the views, something the path would have us
abandon.
The eightfold path would have us dismantle the sense of self by seeing the anicca and anatta
nature of the aggregates, to me it's seems counterproductive to take the view that these
aggregates somehow re-aggregate at death to create a new improved me. The point is not
whether or not such a thing does or does not happen the point is whether holding such a view
helps or hinders the process of the eightfold path.
I think it's much more skilful to not fixate on either extreme but admit you don't know, this has
been my experience, but alas a subtlety lost on the true believers.
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admiraljim
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Reincarnation
by admiraljim Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:09 am
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Sorry, but modern science does not and cannot refute rebirth. Empirical science has nothing
meaningful to say on the subject.
Modern science cannot refute the existence of fairies or santa, yet should I believe these
things?
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Reincarnation
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a wrote:
t
and denying rebirth is a wrong view:
Goofaholix
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009 3:49 am
Yes denying rebirth is wrong view, as is blindly believing it.

There is no evidence that you have presented that the middle way between these two views
renders one utterly impossible to engage in the noble eightfold path.
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Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

Reincarnation
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Goofaholix wrote:
t
The eightfold path would have us dismantle the sense of self by seeing the anicca and anatta
nature of the aggregates....
Yes, and this doesn't negate the passage from MN 117 in any way.
Goofaholix wrote:
to me it's seems counterproductive to take the view that these aggregates somehow reaggregate at death to create a new improved me.
This is not only counterproductive, it's another type of wrong view, i.e. holding a self-view.
Goofaholix wrote:
The point is not whether or not such a thing does or does not happen the point is whether
holding such a view helps or hinders the process of the eightfold path.
One of the purposes of right view with mental outflows is to ensure that one doesn't dismiss the
teachings on kamma and engage in unskillful conduct that would result in birth in the lower
realms.
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Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

Reincarnation
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Goofaholix wrote:
t
a wrote:
and denying rebirth is a wrong view:
Yes denying rebirth is wrong view, as is blindly believing it.
This has already been addressed as well:
a wrote:
Fortunately, Theravdins who have gone for refuge in the three jewels have a number of
reliable sources for ascertaining valid knowledge:
1.
2.
3.
4.
the Pli Tipiaka;

the written & verbal testimony of noble persons;
inferential perception;
direct perception.
These are four powerful assets when employed in concert.
There's no need to blindly believe in anything. But if one has actually gone for refuge in the
three jewels then it seems prudent to accept what the three jewels teach.
Goofaholix wrote:
There is no evidence that you have presented that the middle way between these two views
renders one utterly impossible to engage in the noble eightfold path.
Without right view one is, at best, an ethical person who meditates. This isn't a bad thing, but
there's nothing specifically Buddhist about being an ethical person who meditates.
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admiraljim
Posts: 13
4:27 pm
Location: Aberdeen,
Scotland

Reincarnation
P
o
"Now,
Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones his mind thus free from
s
from
ill
will, undefiled, & pure acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:
t
hostility, free
"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this
is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good
destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.
"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then
here in the present life I look after myself with ease free from hostility, free from ill will,
free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
T
Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

Reincarnation
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admiraljim wrote:
t
Modern science cannot refute the existence of fairies or santa, yet should I believe these things?
You're free to believe whatever you want to believe.
admiraljim wrote:
"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones his mind thus free from hostility, free
from ill will, undefiled, & pure acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:
"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this
is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good
destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.
"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then
here in the present life I look after myself with ease free from hostility, free from ill will,
free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
This doesn't negate the right view taught in MN 117.

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admiraljim
Posts: 13
4:27 pm
Location: Aberdeen,
Scotland

Reincarnation
P
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t
This doesn't negate the right view taught in MN 117.
No it doesnt, it does however mean that there is not an absolute requirement for belief for the
path to be of benefit
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Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

Reincarnation
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admiraljim wrote:
t
No it doesnt, it does however mean that there is not an absolute requirement for belief for the
path to be of benefit
Ven. Bodhi, A Look at the Kalama Sutta:

[T]he discourse to the Kalamas offers an acid test for gaining confidence in the Dhamma
as a viable doctrine of deliverance. We begin with an immediately verifiable teaching
whose validity can be attested by anyone with the moral integrity to follow it through to
its conclusions, namely, that the defilements cause harm and suffering both personal
and social, that their removal brings peace and happiness, and that the practices taught
by the Buddha are effective means for achieving their removal. By putting this teaching
to a personal test, with only a provisional trust in the Buddha as one's collateral, one
eventually arrives at a firmer, experientially grounded confidence in the liberating and
purifying power of the Dhamma. This increased confidence in the teaching brings along
a deepened faith in the Buddha as teacher, and thus disposes one to accept on trust
those principles he enunciates that are relevant to the quest for awakening, even when
they lie beyond one's own capacity for verification. This, in fact, marks the acquisition
of right view, in its preliminary role as the forerunner of the entire Noble Eightfold
Path.
Partly in reaction to dogmatic religion, partly in subservience to the reigning paradigm of
objective scientific knowledge, it has become fashionable to hold, by appeal to the
Kalama Sutta, that the Buddha's teaching dispenses with faith and formulated doctrine
and asks us to accept only what we can personally verify. This interpretation of the
sutta, however, forgets that the advice the Buddha gave the Kalamas was contingent
upon the understanding that they were not yet prepared to place faith in him and his
doctrine; it also forgets that the sutta omits, for that very reason, all mention of right
view and of the entire perspective that opens up when right view is acquired. It offers
instead the most reasonable counsel on wholesome living possible when the issue of
ultimate beliefs has been put into brackets.
What can be justly maintained is that those aspects of the Buddha's teaching that come
within the purview of our ordinary experience can be personally confirmed within
experience, and that this confirmation provides a sound basis for placing faith in those
aspects of the teaching that necessarily transcend ordinary experience.
I understand that it isn't easy for some people to accept the deeper aspects of the
Buddhadhamma which aren't easily verifiable via ordinary cognitions. But there's nothing
ordinary about entering the stream and aligning all of the path factors of the noble eightfold
path. To do so is both extraordinary and supramundane.
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Reincarnation
by mikenz66 Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:37 am
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a wrote:
t
mikenz66
Posts: 12034
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009
7:37 am
I understand that it isn't easy for some people to accept the deeper aspects of the
Buddhadhamma which aren't easily verifiable via ordinary cognitions. But there's nothing
ordinary about entering the stream and aligning all of the path factors of the noble eightfold
path. To do so is both extraordinary and supramundane.
And that's why The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma is so difficult:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=11780
This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and
sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this
generation delights in adhesion, takes delight in adhesion, rejoices in adhesion. For such a
generation this state is hard to see, that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And
this state too is hard to see, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all
acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbna"
Mike
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Reincarnation
by Aloka Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:08 am
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Inomy experience, teachers from two different traditions (Vajrayana and Theravada) have said
s
offline
that its not necessary to believe in rebirth and literal 'other realms' in order to progress
t
with one's practice of the Dhamma.

Aloka
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Jan 21,
2009 2:51 pm
I'm not sure what any of this intense debating to and fro and speculation about other lives
actually achieves in terms of the present life and practice in the here and now.
The Buddha said "The Dhamma is visible here and now" (AN 6.47)
My own position remains neutral - and my practice has been going just fine, whatever the
opinions of others on the internet might be one way or the other.
with metta ,
Aloka
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php
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Reincarnation
by Lazy_eye Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:41 am
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a wrote:
t
Without right view one is, at best, an ethical person who meditates. This isn't a bad thing, but
there's nothing specifically Buddhist about being an ethical person who meditates.
Lazy_eye
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Nyana
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This has been addressed earlier. If the person's ethics and meditation practice are reflective of
the Buddha's teachings, and if they accept such typically Buddhist formulations as anattaannica-dukkha and depdendent origination, then of course there is something specifically
Buddhist about their practice -- regardless of where they stand on rebirth. One facet of the
teachings doesn't settle the question.
Also, "right view" and "rebirth belief" are not synonymous.
Rubblework
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Reincarnation
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

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Lazy_eye wrote:
t
If the person's ethics and meditation practice are reflective of the Buddha's teachings, and if
they accept such typically Buddhist formulations as anatta-annica-dukkha and depdendent
origination, then of course there is something specifically Buddhist about their practice -regardless of where they stand on rebirth. One facet of the teachings doesn't settle the
question.
Rebirth is an aspect of DO as well. And FTR Lee, I'm hardly a "rebirth proselytizer" (I saw the
). I generally avoid rebirth debates; my own
other paragraph before you edited it out
opinion on the subject is moderate. I accept that it is a significant aspect of the received
tradition, including the Suttapiaka. And this is a Theravda discussion forum, the
Buddhadhamma is more important than my opinions or your opinions or anyone else's opinions.
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Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

Reincarnation
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mikenz66 wrote:
t
And that's why The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma is so difficult....
Indeed.
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Reincarnation
by Aloka Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:54 am
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a wrote:
t
Rebirth is an aspect of DO as well. .
Aloka
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Jan 21,
2009 2:51 pm
It doesn't have to be interpreted as literal postmortem rebirth, as can be seen in Ven. P.A.
Payutto's ''An example of Dependent Origination in everyday life " in Chapter 5 "Other
Interpretations" of his booklet ' 'Dependent Origination : The Buddhist Law of Conditionality"
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm
.
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php
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Reincarnation
by Lazy_eye Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:34 pm
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a wrote:
t
I accept that it is a significant aspect of the received tradition, including the Suttapiaka. And
Lazy_eye
Posts: 895
3:23 pm
Contact:
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this is a Theravda discussion forum, the Buddhadhamma is more important than my opinions or
your opinions or anyone else's opinions.
Agree on both points.

Rubblework
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Reincarnation
by Lazy_eye Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:38 pm
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Aloka wrote:
t
a wrote:
Rebirth is an aspect of DO as well. .
Lazy_eye
Posts: 895
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It doesn't have to be interpreted as literal postmortem rebirth, as can be seen in Ven. P.A.
Payutto's ''An example of Dependent Origination in everyday life " in Chapter 5 "Other
Interpretations" of his booklet ' 'Dependent Origination : The Buddhist Law of Conditionality"
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm
.
Aloka,
If you haven't seen it already, you may also be interested in Leigh Brasington's critique of the
"three lives" model, which he sees as suffering from fatal logical problems.
Rubblework
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

and denying rebirth is a wrong view:

Yes denying rebirth is wrong view, as is blindly believing it.

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

and denying rebirth is a wrong view:

Yes denying rebirth is wrong view, as is blindly believing it.

This has already been addressed as well:

the Pli Tipiaka;

These are four powerful assets when employed in concert.

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

You're free to believe whatever you want to believe.

This doesn't negate the right view taught in MN 117.

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

This doesn't negate the right view taught in MN 117.

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Ven. Bodhi, A Look at the Kalama Sutta:

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

with one's practice of the Dhamma.

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

by Nyana Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:46 am

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Rebirth is an aspect of DO as well. .

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Agree on both points.

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in

Rebirth is an aspect of DO as well. .

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