Questions Regarding Rising and Falling of Phenomena.

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena.
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Questions regarding rising and falling of

phenomena.
by Wind Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:42 am
P
o
When
a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And what
s
the
duration
of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and falling on a
t
Wind
Posts: 342
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11:10 pm
is
continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?
o
p
Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

phenomena.
by Ben Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:10 am
P
HioWind,
s
t
Wind wrote:
Ben
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When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to?
From that which conditioned its genesis and to that which it conditions.
Wind wrote:
And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling?
Depends on the particular phenomena. Cittas rise and fall, according to the Abhidhamma, a
"mind-moment" rises and falls billions of times within the blink of an eye. The rise and fall of
rupa is, apparently, seventeen times slower than that of mental phenomena.
Wind wrote:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4060&p=59876[13/8/2558 3:03:02]
Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments
of absences of rising and falling?
I think they are rising and falling continuously. Try and think of it as 'vibrating' or 'oscillating'.
The duration of material phenomena: The lifespan of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a
mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to
the commentators, in the time that it takes for lightening to flash or the eyes to blink, billions
of mind moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infintessimal, each mind-moment
in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppada), presence (thiti), and dissolution
(bhanga). Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary
function, and the dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through
the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the
waters in a stream...
Material phenomena as well pass through the same three stages of arising, presence, and
dissolution, but for them the time required for these three stages to elapse is equal to the time
it takes for seventeen cittas to arise and perish. The stages of arising and dissolution are equal
in duration for both material and mental phenomena, but in the case of material phenomena
the stage of presence is equal to forty-nine sub-moments of mental phenomena.
-- Ch. 4 Compendium of the Cognitive Process, A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma,
Bhikkhu Bodhi
kind regards
Ben
No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later.
All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance
in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) Buddhist Global Relief UNHCR
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..
o
p

phenomena.
by tiltbillings Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:15 am
P
o
s
Ben wrote:
t
tiltbillings
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Cittas rise and fall, according to the Abhidhamma, a "mind-moment" rises and falls billions of
times within the blink of an eye.
According to the very late Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma Pitaka texts do not specify a set
time that I have seen.

Also, billions of times within a a blink of an eye is actually rather meaningless other than a way
of saying that mind contents move with great rapidity.
.
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should
that mean that it is not real? HPatDH p.723
o
p

phenomena.
P
o
s
Ben wrote:
t
Hi Wind,
Wind
Posts: 342
11:10 pm
Wind wrote:
When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to?
From that which conditioned its genesis and to that which it conditions.
In other words, do you mean when a phenomenon disappears, it vanish back to unconditioned
state?
o
p

phenomena.
P
HioTilt
s
I'mt still waiting for my mail-order cittometer
Ben
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to arrive. When it does - I'll let you know how fast

my cittas rise and fall!
BTW, do you have a reference that supports your contention that the billions of mind moments
in a blink of an eye is in fact a later commentarial construct? Certainly, Ven Bodhi mentions
disputes between commentators on the validity of the sub-moment classification but he seems
to be silent on the genesis of the duration of the mind-moment idea.
Thanks!
Ben

o
p

phenomena.
P
HioWind
s
Rather
than focus on my words, have
t
Ben
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a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a

reliable authority whereas I am not.
I also think Venerable explains things much better than I.
metta
Ben
o
p

phenomena.
P
o
s
Ben wrote:
t
Wind
Posts: 342
11:10 pm
Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a
metta
Ben
The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But I don't
see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it disappear to. Do you
have a link where he expands on this subject?
o
p

phenomena.
P
Noo Wind, I don't have a link, just the
s
I recommend
it!
t
Ben
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hardcopy of his work.
kind regards
Ben
o
p
pt1
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phenomena.
by pt1 Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:57 pm
P
o
s
Wind wrote:
t
Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?
Online version of that book

Best wishes
o
p

phenomena.
by tiltbillings Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:03 pm
P
o
s
Wind wrote:
t
tiltbillings
Posts: 21228
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Ben wrote:
Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a
metta
Ben

The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But I don't
see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it disappear to. Do you
have a link where he expands on this subject?
Where does a sound come from and where does it go? Be careful not assume a thingness to
"phenomenon."
.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
p

phenomena.
by Alex123 Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:10 pm
P
o
s
Wind wrote:
t
When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And what is
the duration of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and falling on a
Alex123
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed Mar 10,
2010 11:32 pm
It doesn't come from anywhere when it 'rises', nor it goes anywhere when it 'falls'. When you
light a match, A flame doesn't go from some storehouse, nor does it go to flame-heaven when
the flame ceases.
Rise & fall simply means appearance (due to causes) and cessation (due to absence of those
causes).
With metta,
Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to
break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack
you back down with ruthless indifference..."
o
p

phenomena.
by Nibbida Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:09 pm
P
I'mo the farthest thing from an authority on this, especially
s
atstab at it anyway. I'm in Abidhamma kindegarten.
all matters Abidhamma, but I'll take
The experience of "arising" of a phenomenon refers to the causes/conditions coming together,

while the experience of passing refers to some or all of the underlying causes/conditions
changing. A "thing" never existed, so there is nowhere that it came from and there's nowhere

Nibbida
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009
3:44 am
for it to go. The "object" is a concept that we impose on the experience of changing
phenomena, a continuum. I've heard several teachers express this saying to look at "objects" as
verbs rather than nouns.
To use the example of a tree, there is no "tree" so to speak, there is the (changing,
interdependent) process of tree-ing. The tree comes into existence by certain causes coming
together, and ceases the same way. But really, what we're referring to is our perception of the
tree (the visual image of it, for example). Like anything else, that perception arises and passes
based on causes & conditions.
o
p

phenomena.
by retrofuturist Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:25 am
P
o
Greetings
Wind,
s
t
Wind wrote:
retrofuturist
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I think this question only has value in experiential rather than ontological terms, so I would
recommend setting aside any notion of a thing that objectively and ontologically rises, exists
or passes away... and focus on the experience of rising and falling, or perhaps more correctly,
change. Why would change be more correct? Because notions of rise and fall are relative to a
conceptualisation of how a certain "thing" was previously (e.g. the sound of the car engine got
louder, the smell of the incense is diminishing)... and hence, fall back onto a past reification
of experience based on ignorance. Even a citta is a conceptualised "thing" and reification is not
connected with emptiness.
As Bhikkhu Nanananda says in the Nibbana Sermons...
Bhikkhu Nanananda wrote:
Whatever becomes an object of that conceiving, by that very conception it becomes otherwise.
That is to say that an opportunity arises for an otherwise-ness, even as `death' has come
together with `birth'. So conceiving, or conception, is itself the reason for otherwise-ness.
Before a `thing' becomes `otherwise', it has to become a `thing'. And it becomes a `thing' only
when attention is focussed on it under the influence of craving, conceit and views and it is
separated from the whole world and grasped as a `thing'. And that is why it is said:
Ya yahi lokasmim updiyanti,
teneva Mro anveti jantu.
"Whatever one grasps in the world,
By that itself Mra pursues a being."
Bhikkhu Nanananda wrote:
Knowledge and understanding are very often associated with words and concepts, so much so
that if one knows the name of a thing, one is supposed to know it. Because of this

misconception the world is in a tangle. Names and concepts, particularly the nouns, perpetuate
the ignorance in the world.
Hence, it is important to distinguish between concept and reality.

Metta,
Retro.
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one
is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but
that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)
I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing,
blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes. (MN 31)
Never again...
o
p
Virgo
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10:52 pm

phenomena.
by Virgo Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:02 am
P
o
s
tiltbillings wrote:
t
Wind wrote:
Ben wrote:
Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi
is a reliable authority whereas I am not.
metta
Ben
The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But I
don't see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it disappear
to. Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?
"phenomenon."
Why not? I thought this was a Buddhist board.

kevin
o
p

phenomena.
P
o
Greetings
Virgo,
s
t
Would you care to clarify what you meant by that rather cryptic comment?
retrofuturist
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Virgo
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Metta,
Retro.
Never again...
o
p

phenomena.
by Virgo Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:08 am
P
o
s
retrofuturist wrote:
t
Greetings Virgo,
Would you care to clarify what you meant by that rather cryptic comment?
Metta,
Retro.
I am not sure, Retro, but It appears that Tilts statement is denying the existence of paramattha
dhammas as real "things" that arise and fall away. This is a Theravada Buddhist board, though,
I hope.
Kevin
o
p

phenomena.
P
o
Greetings
Virgo,
s
t
Virgo wrote:
retrofuturist
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I am not sure, Retro, but It appears that Tilts statement is denying the existence of paramattha
dhammas as real "things" that arise and fall away.
I remember at E-Sangha there was a lengthy discussion in the Theravada section on the
reification of dhammas, and the extent to which they were real "things" which "exist". Alas,
that interesting discussion seems to have disappeared into the ether (as it would be a handy
reference right about now), but I don't think it would hurt to retrace some of the arguments
put forward there, and this topic seems a suitable one in which to do it. Perhaps you may wish
to counter what you believe Tilt is suggesting, or this line of thinking from "The Dhamma
Theory - Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma", published by BPS, which I think I
recall him presenting at E-Sangha.
Y. Karunadasa wrote:
The Pali Abhidhamma Pitaka did not succumb to this error of conceiving the dhammas as
ultimate unities or discrete entities. In the Pali tradition it is only for the sake of definition and
description that each dhamma is postulated as if it were a separate entity; but in reality it is by
no means a solitary phenomenon having an existence of its own.
Source: http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory ... l_corn.htm
Virgo wrote:
This is a Theravada Buddhist board, though, I hope.
This is, and you're not using that as a trite mode of argumentation, I hope.
Metta,
Retro.
Never again...
o
p

phenomena.
ground
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by ground Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:50 am

P
o
s
Wind wrote:
t
"phenomenon" actually is a name for the conceptual synthetic concatenation of moments

involving recollection of former moments with reference to what is called "present moment"
but which is not findable at all.
Based on that there is the talk about "arising" and "abiding" and "cessation" of phenomena
although there is no "arising" and "abiding" and "cessation" at all if conceptual synthesis is
discarded.
Kind regards
o
p

phenomena.
by tiltbillings Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:02 am
P
o
s
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
tiltbillings
Posts: 21228
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Wind wrote:
The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But
I don't see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it
disappear to. Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?
"phenomenon."
Why not? I thought this was a Buddhist board.
kevin
You are arguing, Kevin, that dhammas are things with some sort of "thingness" nature?
.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
p
pt1
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009
2:30 am

phenomena.
by pt1 Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:05 pm
P
o
s
TMingyur wrote:
t
Wind wrote:
When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And
what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and
falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and
falling?
"phenomenon" actually is a name for the conceptual synthetic concatenation of moments

involving recollection of former moments with reference to what is called "present moment" but
which is not findable at all.
Based on that there is the talk about "arising" and "abiding" and "cessation" of phenomena
although there is no "arising" and "abiding" and "cessation" at all if conceptual synthesis is
discarded.
I believe that is how dhammas (phenomena) are understood in Tibetan tradition. However, as
far as I know, in Theravada, dhammas cannot be equaled to concepts, as you seem to do
above. To do so is to deny the possibility of insight ever taking place, since insight specifically
deals with dhammas, not concepts. My understanding is that in Theravada, dhammas are said
to have characteristics - anicca, dukkha and anatta as common characteristics of all dhammas
(except nibbana), and individual charactersitics pertaining to the function of each particular
dhamma. I believe it is these characteristics that are understood through insight when citta
takes a certain dhamma for an object. Of course, the fact that dhammas can be seen to have
individual characteristics does not mean that they are self-existing entities that somehow defy
anicca and conditioned nature of their arising and passing (again, except nibbana).
Best wishes
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Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena.

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Questions regarding rising and falling of

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling?

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

time that I have seen.

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

to arrive. When it does - I'll let you know how fast

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

hardcopy of his work.

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?

Online version of that book

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

all matters Abidhamma, but I'll take

The experience of "arising" of a phenomenon refers to the causes/conditions coming together,

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Bhikkhu Nanananda wrote:

Bhikkhu Nanananda wrote:

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Hence, it is important to distinguish between concept and reality.

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Why not? I thought this was a Buddhist board.

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Source: http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory ... l_corn.htm

This is a Theravada Buddhist board, though, I hope.

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

by ground Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:50 am

"phenomenon" actually is a name for the conceptual synthetic concatenation of moments

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of

"phenomenon" actually is a name for the conceptual synthetic concatenation of moments

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena. - Dhamma Wheel

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