An interview with ninjutsu master Kacem Zoughari: Part one A ninjutsu teacher and professor of Japanese Studies who specialises in the history of Japanese budo, Dr Kacem Zoughati is a long- time resident of Tokyo, Japan and a direct student of Bujinkan founder Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi and his most senior student, Ishizuka Shihan. Yet, despite his love for the art and his teachers, Dr Zoughari makes no bones about his rejection of the Bujinkan itself. Following a recent visit Down Under, the doctor gave Blitz a fascinating and in-depth look into Japanese martial arts — leaving no one in doubt about his reputation for controversy. INTERVIEW BY GRAHAM ANDERSON & BEN STONE, WITH WILLIAM USTAV 7B + wow blizman netiter eee eee etl thete is no need for words, Perens cs Coe eet ee ero 4 Pree peat ae a colour of his hair is or other sync. This is how Takamatsu Pree as ESM ten) tt Pree eens ce ae eee ee ts ee ee eens erro as eae teased the art..how he carries the the way he is, you judge from ret ee me se Sc ot eet Pee ene Peer ee ers Se Enea GG THERE ane, OF COURSE, eerpeeeeira oi See nee ee ere DIFFERENCES BETWEEN beans aes THE RYU-HA, BUT THE a re tus Westerners becatise we heart and intention. Like GOAL IS THE SAME: Petia einer TO KILL AND tac.batiecased Hacunlsckei ec DEC Runs) Pe eee staat PREVENT DANGER, [aRceSeeeineccmmnaren aerate 1 eo rategi ere ie enced AND SURVIVE.59 firemen ees ete ee ee ee ery Seer tt ae ee should do or choose, because in flow, between weakens irene dee eer ee ee) he will die during combat. force, light and shadow, but ta) a ee ee eee es ee ee ee eee een eects ene intan) e who Seen tet Pe erent cee primary sources such eras Pca ert wwe find the phrs ore pene ieee always with Sreeeriee Rents et ert Sn ea disciple to show [this] isnot He g estes ‘especially when you want hecause he knows hows re ee re eed cee Soren ate es ty oer Peet oa eee eeeis not for everyoneeveryone. He knows the difficulty and understands more than anyone the weight of the transmission te well asthe legoey. Th the reason why he i light and ‘open to everyone, whatever the style, the man, the religion, the country, the language, sal st ema, capacity to say “I do not know...” He has incredible Interest in any art any ry, whatever the style. this ‘openness, to study everything andl not be limited oF to stop at any level, vision, state of mind, Im this case, as you can see, the purple hair is just a colour prefer to see the heart ofthe ‘man, long term, and I have not heen disappointed once. And be sure that, asa scholar, I know how to stay neutral; in this ease Ido not play the slave or the yes-yes' student, I speak ‘my mind freely and according to my heart, This i the reason have learned Japanese 20 » wnltameg nt Who is your teacher under Hatsumi Soke, and how does his approach differ to the grandmactor and othor Bujinkan seniors? ‘My teacher is right now the oldest student of Hatsumi Soke — after four students, Mi Fukun (lead), Me Yonelwa (quit in the early days), Mr Manaka (creator of the Jinenkan) and Mr Tanemura (creator of the Genbukan). His name 1S tetsu Ishizuka and be is well known by everyone, even the ones who badmouth him. No one has such a close relationship with Hatsumi Soke like Ishizuka Shihan does; no one shares the same history with Hatsumi Soke and with the creation of the Bujinkan! Most of the Westerners used to come to his dojo; he used to translate for Hatsumni Soke 2 long time ago. He was involved in everything until he had 10 step back in order to support his family and because he had 4 very important job. He was the deputy chief ofthe fire department of Noda, in charge of the entire budget ofall the fire departments of the Chiba prefecture...he had to be in the field and station constantly, and every night kept is dojo Dy sunny clos. 1 Iave witnessed this since 1989. Ishizuka Shihan started at Hatsumi Soke $ dojo when he was 16 yeats old. He was from [Noda and he has never left Hatsum Soke and has always stayed by his side. He is the senior ofall the other shiban such as Seno, Noguchi, Nagato, Someya, Shiraishi, ete He sticks to what Hatsumi Soke taught him at the beginning: the densho, the art, no compromise, no ranks for nothing, no trading the art, no prostituting the art... With him its practise and practise, study and study, and respect the and each technique — there is no self-promotion, He does not teach for the money, his job bas provided him with a pretty comfortable life nov He hae passion for Hawaiian music, and is a singer and a bass player in a band that plays all over Tokyo professionally now that he has retired from the fre deportment after 30 years, He practises the ar Jhecause he loves martial arts he teaches because he believes he has a strong ethical duty town Haut Soke, he at and the nine ryu-ha, inthe way Hatsumi Soke taught him. He also has been awarded various menkyo kaiden (EF licence of full transmission) from Hatsumi Soke. This year marks his 50th year of taining with Hatsumi Soke! His approach is simple: Ihe does not lie t0 you, nor does he do it for the money he does not care about the number of the people who come to practise or not. He is the same, always smiling, always laughing, and is the most sincere and honest man, If what you do does not work, Ihe ie strict fat fair Rat the hese way to find out isto come and visit him, to experience him and see with your own heart and eyes, This is the best way to know comcone, i practice, like everything in life is about direct experience and to go and meet reality, which isa reflection, an expression, ‘of de eth, You might lke it fr not, maybe some prefer to just be a high rank snd have a huge following of be famous, or whatever — everyone chooses according t0 his own, appetite andl what he looks for. But one should not forget that every choice includes. consequences, and the ste the real fight, the life problems are there to test your practice, which isan extension of the relationship with the master, the relationship with the art and the practice ofthis att as well Bujinkan appears as Hatsumi. Is this the case, orare there are other schools that have come from the same lineage...and if so, what are their differences? “BANK IS JUST PAPER, AND ans i feat mutt] SENSE! USED 10 SAY alee eas NINJA COLLECTION PA sala aaa) Coad Rae Seen roy See eed Hayes achieved the rare rank of Judan (0th Doe eT Meee aie VISIT BLITZMAG.NET OR CALL (03) 9574 8460 10 ORDERJ-taljusu, The founder of the Takagi Yoshin-yu was atop student ofthe Takeuchi-ry Koshi No Mawar one of the ‘ery fist rytcha of juts in Japan, This i a sogo-bujutsu that deals with the buget juhappan (BEE 7B) or the 18 disciplines of combat that any ryucha before Edo period used and taught, and where ll the past soke developed high level sil, But this i the history before Takamatsu Sense, ccording to his autobiography, Mei Moroku Otoko (only Hatsumt Soke has i) Takamatst explained everything inside his practic and relationship with the ar, the diflerence between his masters, the way they taught him his We in China, ee: We need t0 tinderstand that Takamats Sensei was deeply influenced by his grandather (some say his uncle, but this a imisreading of the kanji used to write 'gtandiather), Toda Sense, who was from ga and taught inn the way to move as well s the combat science of ninjus. So before Takamatsu Sensel started under Ishitani Sensei and Mizuta he was deeply influenced by the ninjutsu form and spirit taught by Toda Sense, 20s easy to understand that when he learned the techniques from the other two masters Ishitant and Mizutani), he applied the tnain principle of ninjus suieishin (KBE), ‘the heart (ind) reflects the water or the shade ofthe water. This isthe capacity to opy any kind of technique or style, and make them better. ts something tha every high-class bushi (arion ot founder of aru hha no matter what the style could do more of less and in the case ofninjutst, this state ‘vas pushed to the extreme So for me, based on the \wltng of Takamatsu Sense the nine rytha are shaped in ninjutsus mind and form. There are, of course, diferences between the ry ha, techniques, weapons, et 82» vowwbltamag et but the goal isthe same: to ull and prevent danger, and survive. Some are more direct, ‘more pragmati, some have more details, some less...you must practise, study and work hard on the common points of each in order to make sense and measute the depth of the knowledge accumulated, by each generation behind cach technique But to tell you the truth, its not the lineage or the difference that matters here. Tis what you can do against anyone and how you can explain, present, prove to them = no matter the master, the shihan, the fighter or the style you have in the front you! ‘Most Japanese martial arts’ senior grades go up to either 10th Dan or th Dan, the latter being in recognition that one can ee ever achieve ‘perfection’ and must always strive {for the next level. Why are ‘there so many Dan grades in the Bujinkan? ‘Well, your question isin relation with the rank system and the way ranks are given In the Bujinkan more than anything else. I agree that this Js an interesting topic among, ‘many, but [do not care for the organisation, s0 { do not care about the rank system. First ofall, must be honest about that ike T have been in front of many people, whether they are from the Bujinkan or other organisations. Ihave also presented this in Japan in many universities and in front of many high ranks of many styles: Ido not believe Jn rank or the system of rank in classical martial arts and ‘modern arts in general Why? The reason is simple the history of any ryu-ha before the Edo period shows that ranks did not exist. The only thing that existed was the inka (ENED) or attestation of transmission, which means that the disciple who received ivhas been taught to a certain level, but it doesn't mean necessarily that he understood Wor that he could do it at the ‘moment he received it! Phrases like "now you must practise even more” at the beginning of the attestation, and “disciples who study the art must always keep on practising hard and deep” at the end of the attestation, is pool that its just the beginning Belore the Edo period, the true rank was how many heads you took on the batlefield; how many great warriors you fought and killed, what your behaviour and actions were during war and combat while fighting with the enemy, ee. A ‘man, a disciple, was measured according to his actions, not according to the number of techniques and how much he ppld for his rank. And, with time, the attestation or any kind of rank, paper and ink, could be bought or sold. The reed for money for living, supporting a family were good enough reasons for someone to runa dojo as a profession and created a need for people to reach a certain position or status. And in the Meiji period, the attestation became a rank (Dan and Kyu) system with Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo, But inthis case its based ‘more on school education, like examinations in the university; is not on the long, term but the short term, The rank you could have passed yesterday, the way you could do a technique yesterday ot performed a week later, will be very different later. Maybe worse, maybe better, who really knows? This isthe reason I do not believe in rank, I believe in true and long-term practice, action and deep knowledge.| think the way someone ‘moves, aets and behaves deeply rellects the true vale of his practice and the purpose of his practice as well, But ifsomeone pretends to be a high rank, ‘who wants to be recognised and respected because of the paper he received, who is arrogant, hurts the student in order to Show how great he is, Dbehaves like a"maste’, has no knowledge, and always refuses the direct confrontation, well this type of person is just. In ninjutsu there is no rank, only action, application, skils...and please note that in'skills' there isthe word ail’. [think thatthe nature of the word here shows that everything should be a rellection or an expression of the reality, and everyone knows that reality is erucl, hard, direct and there is no compromise. Can you knock down your ‘opponent or not? That is the question, Then the second question is, can do you it class and style and withou bad intentions? So Ido not believe in rank but Lunderstand the purpose, {in @ social way, in an education system o for sports, according, to ite rules and seales. But the problem is that sooner or ith later there isa limit and the reality of the street and the true confrontation is always there to show and mark the difference with rank, Rank is just paper, and its only good for the toilet,” Takamatsu Sensel used to Say to Hatsumi Soke. 1 deeply believe that to be true as well Unfortunately, the world is ‘made in such 3 way that the (Of course, I respect the hard work and dedication, even if {ts limited in a certain way. behind the rank of someone who has worked hard for his Blackbelt etc. The hard work injudo, karate, kendo and BJ} {s really present and must be respected. But its important to keep in mind that ic reflects just a moment in life, not all of Iife, and not even the meaning “THE WAY PEOPLE MOVE, ACT, BEHAVE, SELL THEMSELVES, PROMOTE THEMSELVES, THE WAY THEY WALK IS ENOUGH PROOF 10 SHOW WHAT THEY WANT AND WHO THEY REALLY ARE.” name, the university, the paper is more important than the Inuman, the one who should camry the rank. Everyone should re-think that the name, fame, university's name, rank, paper, ete, canmot exist without the one who created i irs: that is man himsell, —— HIDING THE SWORD —— Zoughari damonsratos methods of hiding a katana or other long weapon of shugyo (HEFF) or Keiko (8 ) used in lasicalbujutsu and rinjutsu, Those words include the aspects ofthe path and deep reflection ofthe past, of allof your life, so it aifcue Now inthe case ofthe Bajinkan... we care. Ranks ae given for ‘many reasons: supporting the organisation, by promoting and ranking other people, helping to ompanise Takai, ete. Do not forget practice as wel, but what fs the nature ofthis practice? Does the rank received in the Bajinkan really and deeply reflect the relationship with the art and the master oust the fact that you came to Japan and sserificed your money for the promotion, ete? Honesty ke 1 sid, the way people move act behave, sel themselves, promote themseives, the way they walk, ‘s enough proof to show what they want and who they really are, In that ease, much prefer people from MMA, Bi), boxing, ‘muay Thai, wrest, judo, ete. because even if tsa sport snd no one diedies during the creation and application oftheir techniques, they are true ina certain way, their results and actions speak for themselves. They are dedicated and very tough and disciplined and it shows in their practice, Br inthe Bujinkan? Well have no comment and I do not really cae ‘The lst thing L can say is this, as Uhave translated many times for Hatsumi Soke ducing class lke afew others who have lived in Japan fora long time (Mark Lithgow, Mark OBrien, Andrew Young, Shawn Grey Bruce, Doug, Lary, Paul, etc.) and who keep translating for him now; they have to hear the same phrase all the time: atsumi Soke said that the 15th Dan means that its the tart for everyone. So tha direct reference to the historical aspect of Un, which was the age, 15 years old, fof a young boy to go to war after the had passed certain tests, So the rank does not really express anything, only something to haelp, to push, to go more deeply, te keep on practising, But we will be able o se the value of their rank after Hatsami Soke stops teaching...here, again, the rank does not show the future, but just the moment when you received it...and everyone knows how humans can change, forthe Detter or the worse [Now the high ranks in other organisations are also based on politics, actions done for the bnganisation, not just the skill anymore. For me the best rank 's what you could do, when you ae old and must face any style, ‘fyou can keep the flexibility required at the highest level and sill practise As a conclusion to this question, T do not care for, oF of the rank, but the person. Rank means nothing. to me. (Check cut the nest issue of liz fr par ov ofthis intervlew covering Dr Zoughari views on ninjutsu technique, the debate about the rue history of modern schools, and debunking ninjutsu omc US barr won bitmap ne