Re: Are Karma and Rebirth For Real?

14/10/2558
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Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63318)

byKarmaDondrupTashiFriOct28,20112:26pm
ronnewmexico wrote:
Read about this you will find it true. Two scientists just received great prizes
for this discovery though it occured several years ago.
The universe is rapidly expanding and accelerating.We are on a collision course
with another galaxy.
It is reasonably assumed concurrent with this now known acceleration that
eventually over time the forces which allow atoms to be atoms and remain as
such by certain forces will be overcome by the forces of disassociation(some
call dark matter) and themselves accelerate apart.
Dark matter concurrent with this known fact of acceleration compirses the
majority of energy in the universe by proportion..yet we cannot perceive it only
know of it by the movements of known objects(such as in the acceleration)
Nothing will sustain and remain that is certain.
All the buddhas words are proven true by science...it only remains to be
discovered.
Earth..forget the earth it will not sustain. Not a bit of it.
Study it read it yourself.
I need Hermione's time turner to be able to read all the stuff I want to read.
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/TimeTurner (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Time
Turner)
Top

bydeepbluehumFriOct28,20113:32pm
Ok, here's something interesting to puzzle over. From the descriptions of the Abhidharma, a
being dies and due to the force of karma, etc., goes into intermediate state where it sees its
future father and mother copulating, because it is attracted to the sex organ of one of them,
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=180
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it becomes the opposite of that sex. Then Vasubhandu states that a cow for example will be
reborn a cow not a buffalo, because it's habits, etc., cause that continuation.
Sounds perfectly reasonable, however, what about artificial insemination? There are no sex
organs involved, and the species can be hybrid. The Abhidharmists, to their credit, did
anticipate atoms, though they did not get it exactly right, they did get that they consist of
parts and those parts consist of parts until there is nothing left. But they did not anticipate
genes.
The Dalai Lama has said the Abhidharma must be revised due to new science, but he wants
that new science to develop further so that it's more than just mere theory. The whole of
atomic chemistry, quantum mechanics and all of it fits quite nicely with the theory of
dependent origination. But genetics sort of obliterates the teachings of reincarnation. But it's
not so easy to be rid of bardo, ghosts and dakinis.
If you spend any time with the Tibetans and Indians you will come to see that supernatural
stuff is pretty normal. There are real masters that remember their past lives, and masters
that can suspend the death process. The teachings related to phowa and bardo do work. So
what is this about the bardo?
Conjectures aside, the arising of a mind from DNA manipulation is clearly possible. There's no
copulation and no prior species in the continuation. Then there are situations like the polar
bears mating with the grizzlies. That hasn't been done before either. Clearly, Abhidharma
needs a revise in this area.
I suggest the following: We take our direction from instructions on Buddhahood.
It boils down to potentiality. When a sentient being takes up the buddhist path, then the
potential for buddhaood is awakened, and the qualities are matured over time. It is the same
for sentient beings, the qualities for the existence of a sentient being mature over time. For
example, when the new universe takes shape, the winds stir and the elements form, and
sentient beings start their progression. The potential for a sentient being is in the molecules,
clearly, and when the conditions are set, the sentient being can arise.
Then, as to the bardo, it is inconclusive. The bardo is an intermediate state, plain and
simple. The whole scheme of being attracted to the opposite sex organs, and all that does
actually happen, but it would not be conclusive. This would not be a direct cause the birth;
perhaps a contributory cause. It would simply be a very deep desire for birth. Then, the way
that rebirth actually happens would have to go the route of "the maturation of karma is
inconceivable," as sutra says.
Despite the problems with the tulku system, how do we explain the cases where the tulkus
are found where they say they will be found in their letter from the previous life, and then
they grow up to be great world leaders of Buddhism like the HHDL? In some inconceivable
way, when a bodhisattva master engages the methods on bardo, he or she is able to do
something karmic that can result in the birth of a great man. HHDL is not just some great
master; his depth and breadth of knowledge rivals any of the great masters in history. How
could a group of Tibetans have just randomly accidentally selected such a child and had that
happen? Isn't that inconceivable? But that's what happened.
Masters are able to be conscious in the bardo and prevent the body from decomposing. A
master can dissolve his body into nothing, leaving only hair and nails. They are arresting and
redirecting the death process. The number of instances are so numerous that one has to
conclude the teachings on karma and rebirth do work. Accumulating vast stores of merit by
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realizing emptiness does give one the power to direct rebirth. But exactly how that happens
is simply inconceivable.
This just crossed my mind: The beings that are reborn in the petri dishes? Maybe they are the
scientists that love and find wonder in that.
Top

byedearlFriOct28,20113:56pm
Is a person always reborn as a person?

Top

byKarmaDondrupTashiFriOct28,20114:08pm
deepbluehum wrote:
Ok, here's something interesting to puzzle over. ...
Hahaha. Awesome. This is such a cool post.

Maybe "mother" and "father" in the bardo who "make love" do not need to be the actual
biological parents?
What about children who are adopted? They will inherit the karma of their adopted, not
biologial, mother and father.
Makes me wonder what the white and red drops are, really.
Top

byJosefFriOct28,20114:35pm
edearl wrote:
Nope.
Top
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Nangwa wrote:
edearl wrote:
Nope.
Can a person be reborn as any animal, insect, or microbe?

Top

bySherabDorjeFriOct28,20114:41pm
deepbluehum wrote:
Sounds perfectly reasonable, however, what about artificial insemination?
There are no sex organs involved, and the species can be hybrid. The
Abhidharmists, to their credit, did anticipate atoms, though they did not get it
exactly right, they did get that they consist of parts and those parts consist of
parts until there is nothing left. But they did not anticipate genes.
Of course they got it completely right with the atoms, just that science has not been able to
go that deep into the atom yet.
As for genes. What are genes? Amino acid chains. What are they composed of? Molecules.
What are they composed of? I leave it up to you to do the maths.
Truth is that there is as much difference between the genetic codes of two human beings as
there is between that of a human being and any other being. So?...
edearl wrote:
Apparently if you take refuge you will never be born into any of the three lower realms again.
I don't buy that. I am more of the conviction of: if one maintains refuge... So a human can be
born as any other type of sentient being as a consequence of their actions and the habits
they form during their lifetime.
Top
Re: are karma and rebirth for real?
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gregkavarnos wrote:
edearl wrote:
Apparently if you take refuge you will never be born into any of the three lower
realms again. I don't buy that. I am more of the conviction of: if one maintains
refuge... So a human can be born as any other type of sentient being as a
consequence of their actions and the habits they form during their lifetime.
I think you said it is possible if one is really stupid during their life. If so, and if one is born a
microbe that has no brain to think and guide one's actions, how can one ever be born into a
higher realm again?
Top

edearl wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
edearl wrote:
Nope.
Yes they can.

Top

edearl wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
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edearl wrote:
Apparently if you take refuge you will never be born into any of the
three lower realms again. I don't buy that. I am more of the conviction
of: if one maintains refuge... So a human can be born as any other type
of sentient being as a consequence of their actions and the habits they
form during their lifetime.
I think you said it is possible if one is really stupid during their life. If so, and if
one is born a microbe that has no brain to think and guide one's actions, how
can one ever be born into a higher realm again?
The Abhidharma talks about worms, that they are attracted to smell and taste of soil and
based on that are reborn as worms. This applies to microbes. It just takes them a very long
time to generate enough desire to be born as a higher animal, and then from animal to
human. What drives it is the complexity of the attractitions. Then, for humans to be reborn
among the devas and formless gods is about the refinement of attractions, where there are
those who are attracted only by loving kindness or radiance or to one of the jhanas.
So a human to be reborn an animal would need causes for that. It would be about a person
who is very stupid or into devouring and forms habits that resemble and animal. Then, in the
next life perhaps would be human again but more animal like. There was this woman in
Indonesia a while back who was covered in hair and walked around growling. We can say it is
like a deformity, but she was similar to a bear. Then, slowly she will become stupider and be
reborn an animal.
This is how I see it. I don't see it like oh you were stupid so you will be punished in the animal
realm. Things happen slowly over very long periods of time. Actually the only fast
transformation of karma possible is the path.
Top

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

deepbluehum wrote:
Ok, here's something interesting to puzzle over. ...
Hahaha. Awesome. This is such a cool post.

Maybe "mother" and "father" in the bardo who "make love" do not need to be the
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actual biological parents?

What about children who are adopted? They will inherit the karma of their
adopted, not biologial, mother and father.
Makes me wonder what the white and red drops are, really.
Well an adopted child gets genetic karma from bios and enviro karma from adopteds no?
Actually the red and white represent blood and lymph. These are in the body. The tantric
methods do cause someone to be able to arrest the autonomic systems. These practice do in
fact generate intense bliss sensation in the body. In other words, they do what they are
designed to do. Why and how is not so amazing as that it does work, and that the masters
figured these out. Amazing.
Top

deepblue
Top

gregkavarnos wrote:
Of course they got it completely right with the atoms, just that science has not
been able to go that deep into the atom yet.
Yeah right. An atom has a north, south, east and west, but is impenetrable? Honestly they
got atoms wrong, but they did get that the are not partless. That's good enough.
But as to DNA the fact it's a molecule does not account for how consciousness is reborn from
it. And the example of bardo seems to spin off into a totally not atomic direction.
Top

Let's say you have X traits in your basket of behaviors. If someone born after you has X1, or
X+1, what is there to distinguish that person other than time and space? If our qualia of
experience is shaped by X traits, then how is that future person any different than your
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experience? Due to the threaded and woven nature of memory and experience, why couldn't
X1 remember X's life if the proper conditions are met?
Top

edearl wrote:
I think you said it is possible if one is really stupid during their life. If so, and if
one is born a microbe that has no brain to think and guide one's actions, how
can one ever be born into a higher realm again?
As a consequence of previous positive karmic outcomes which "surface" again once the
stronger negative karmic outcomes have run their course and pettered out. A microbe cannot
generate the causes for a human rebirth, or at least it is incredibly, unbelievably difficult for
them to do so.
Top

deepbluehum wrote:
But as to DNA the fact it's a molecule does not account for how consciousness is
reborn from it.
Probably coz consciousness is not born from DNA?

Let's say you have X traits in your basket of behaviors. If someone born after
you has X1, or X+1, what is there to distinguish that person other than time
and space? If our qualia of experience is shaped by X traits, then how is that
future person any different than your experience? Due to the threaded and
woven nature of memory and experience, why couldn't X1 remember X's life if
the proper conditions are met?
Sometimes I don't remember what I had for breakfast and you want me to be able to
remember my past life?
Anyway, let's say that in your immediately previous life you were a microbe. Can you even
begin to imagine what a microbial memory would be like? I mean they don't have the same
senses as us and we currently define our experience and memory via our senses (I felt this, I
saw that, I heard this, I tasted that...) So if, suddenly, a microbial memory flashed up in your
consciousness could you even possibly begin to be able to define it as an experience (as you
now "know" experience) or a memory?
Top
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byzangskarFriOct28,20118:52pm
gregkavarnos wrote:
Anyway, let's say that in your immediately previous life you were a microbe.
Can you even begin to imagine what a microbial memory would be like? I mean
they don't have the same senses as us and we currently define our experience
and memory via our senses (I felt this, I saw that, I heard this, I tasted that...)
So if, suddenly, a microbial memory flashed up in your consciousness could you
even possibly begin to be able to define it as an experience (as you now "know"
experience) or a memory?
Indeed. And more generally, the idea that it is "I" and "you" who are reborn is sort of
interesting ... in a Buddhist context, even if a reminder is made that there is no belief in
atman, and that things are only "apparently" so, etc.
Maybe it's just because I don't understand the doctrine well enough, but this is one of the
reasons why I prefer to just accept some ultra simple onesentence version of the Buddhist
teachings on rebirth and ignore the many empirical claims and details about it. The more
details people come up with, the harder I find it to have faith.
Best wishes
Lars
Top

gregkavarnos wrote:
Anyway, let's say that in your immediately previous life you were a microbe.
According to dharma theory, this is not possible. You have to have the habits of such a
creature to be reborn that way, living in moisture, eating minute particles, etc. Further, I
don't believe microbes are sentient, as plants are not. There must be the capacity of mental
events and memory, six sense media, etc.
Top

You completely missed the point AND you are getting stuck on physical forms and habits and
not mental continuims (which is the "level" at which rebirth really acts).
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LasteditedbySherabDorje(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390)onFriOct
28,20119:39pm,edited2timesintotal.
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gregkavarnos wrote:
You completely missed the point.
No I get your point: one cannot articulate what a prior "I" might have been like. But that is
not the case, because our previous lives as sentient beings will not have been inconceivable.
We would have had bodies, sixsenses, language, memories, etc. One can imagine the life of a
butterfly flitting about between flowers drinking sweetness communicating with smell. This is
why it is important to define terms so we understand the teachings. A microbe would not be
a sentient being, because there are not enough faculties to comprise sentience.
Top
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth For Real?

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14/10/2558

Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63318)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63326)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63328)

Is a person always reborn as a person?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63330)

Hahaha. Awesome. This is such a cool post.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63336)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63337)

Can a person be reborn as any animal, insect, or microbe?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63338)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63343)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63346)

Can a person be reborn as any animal, insect, or microbe?

Yes they can.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63349)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63350)

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

Hahaha. Awesome. This is such a cool post.

actual biological parents?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63351)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63352)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63355)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63382)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63384)

Probably coz consciousness is not born from DNA?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63397)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63399)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63400)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63401)

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