Re: Are Karma and Rebirth For Real?

14/10/2558
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Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64458)

byKevinSolwaySunNov06,20112:09am
Namdrol wrote:
Vasubandhu also rejected the physical existence of hell realms, but did not
reject their existence altogether.
Have you considered that ALL of the realms are not physically real. That is, they are real, but
no physically real.
They are mentally real, but that is all.
That is in fact my position. Not only are the hell realms not physically real, but nor are the
preta realms, the animal realms, the human realms, deva realms, etc.
They all exist within the mind, here and now.
The vast majority of homosapiens on earth are in fact in the lower realms, mentally, and
this is very real.
Top

byMalcolmSunNov06,20112:10am
KevinSolway wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The suffering of a being experiencing a hell realm is far worse than any
imaginable human suffering, however.
And you know this how?
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=320
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Unlike yourself, who cannot accept anything beyond your own senses, and cannot accept any
authority beyond your limited direct perception, I am happy to accept the authority of the
Buddha on such subjects.
N
Top

byMalcolmSunNov06,20112:14am
KevinSolway wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Vasubandhu also rejected the physical existence of hell realms, but did
not reject their existence altogether.
Have you considered that ALL of the realms are not physically real. That is,
they are real, but no physically real.
They are mentally real, but that is all.
That is in fact my position. Not only are the hell realms not physically real, but
nor are the preta realms, the animal realms, the human realms, deva realms,
etc.
They all exist within the mind, here and now.
The vast majority of homosapiens on earth are in fact in the lower realms,
mentally, and this is very real.
Vasubandhu did not reject the conventional physical existence of human realms and so on
merely the physical existence of hells since he reasoned that hell gaurdians must only be
mental projections of the tormented. '
It is only when discussing how phenomena exist ultimately that they are ascertained to be
"mindonly".
If however you maintain that phenomena are only mental real, then you very little basis for
rejecting any of the six realms, and none whatsoever for rejecting rebirth as frogs, devas,
and hell beings, as well as humans.
In fact, you just sank your whole argument against rebirth. Saying that literal rebirth is not a
fact when you at the same time deny that there is any physical reality at all is incoherent.
N
Top
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bypadmanorbuSunNov06,20112:17am
Quick question: One major way Buddhist hell differs from Christian hell is that the Buddhist
hell is not full of demons who leave hell to go torment human beings and torment them and
tempt them, correct?
Top

Namdrol wrote:
Vasubandhu did not reject the conventional physical existence of human realms
and so on
That was his big mistake. He shouldn't have stopped at the hell realms, but should have
considered the rest of the realms as well.
I don't reject any of the realms. They are very real, and are experienced hereandnow,
mentally.
In our English language we have terms like "lounge lizard", "silver fox", "pig", "cow", "snake",
"rat", "chick", etc, which recognize certain mental faculties in people which resemble
animals. We also refer to people as "devas", "demons", and "monsters".
If a person is reborn as a "frog", then it happens right hereandnow, mentally, and not after
a person physically dies.
I don't deny that there is a physical reality, but the language of rebirth in the scriptures is not
about physical reality. It is about experienced reality.
Top

padma norbu wrote:

Quick question: One major way Buddhist hell differs from Christian hell is that
the Buddhist hell is not full of demons who leave hell to go torment human
beings and torment them and tempt them, correct?
Some Buddhists, such as myself, believe that hell exists hereandnow, for those people who
are caused to experience it, while others believe it exists in some other place, or after our
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physical death.
Top

Namdrol, hellbeings in Buddhism are pretty much "locked" in hell, correct? Demons don't
come out to tempt us poor humans in order to cause us to become wrathful or whatever and
be reborn in hell realms, right? I haven't been able to read much about hell beings' karmic
vision other than they may, for example, see a pool of water as lava while a god might see it
as a pool of nectar (and of course it appears to us as water).
By the way, this idea of different appearances based on karmic vision just seemed
phenomenally stupid to me for the first time. It pretty much requires some sort of new age
interpretation of quantum theory about collapsing the wave form by the act of perception:
ie. depending on your karmic vision, the wave form collapses differently and so, miraculously,
what appears simply as H20 becomes a more complex form of chemistry to hellbeings, and
now there is the addition of silica, aluminium, potassium, sodium, calcium etc. as well as
extreme heat in order to form lava. I find no reason to believe this.
Top

byVirgoSunNov06,20113:48am
KevinSolway wrote:
If a person is reborn as a "frog", then it happens right hereandnow, mentally,
and not after a person physically dies.
I don't deny that there is a physical reality, but the language of rebirth in the
scriptures is not about physical reality. It is about experienced reality.
So if I encounter a frog, is that a being who was mentally reborn as a frog during a human life
because of a mindstate, or is it just a real frog? And If it is not a person who was mentally
reborn as a frog during a human life (which it obviously isn't), then where does this living,
breathing, feeling frog come in to things? Is it only a projection of my mind, and "from it's own
side" there is no frog there experiencing things?
Kevin
Top

byalwaysonSunNov06,20113:53am
I did not read this whole thread.

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But has anyone noticed that karma is NOT in the 12 links of DO?
Top

Hi Padma,
No addressed to me, but can I take a stab?
padma norbu wrote:

hellbeings in Buddhism are pretty much "locked" in hell, correct?
Until their karmic cause for being there expires. Some people find an exit and make a
promise to never do what they did again to get there and can climb out.
padma norbu wrote:

Demons don't come out to tempt us poor humans in order to cause us to become
wrathful or whatever and be reborn in hell realms, right?
No but sometimes that generally have been in hell for a very long time, or are going through a
period where they go to hell frequently, by some karma get a quick human birth and live
among us. A lot of time they are exceedingly evil, because those are the tendencies they
have built up over time, even though they happen to experience a human birth this time due
to some other karmic causes. Also, Yakshas or other demons can be reborn as humans, and
for example, want to eat people.
padma norbu wrote:

By the way, this idea of different appearances based on karmic vision just
seemed phenomenally stupid to me for the first time. It pretty much requires
some sort of new age interpretation of quantum theory about collapsing the
wave form by the act of perception: ie. depending on your karmic vision, the
wave form collapses differently and so, miraculously, what appears simply as
H20 becomes a more complex form of chemistry to hellbeings, and now there is
the addition of silica, aluminium, potassium, sodium, calcium etc. as well as
extreme heat in order to form lava. I find no reason to believe this.
It's not ridiculous at all. Why does someone with cataracts see what you see as white as
yellow?* Why can you distinguish green from blue from gray, but someone who is color blind
sees them all as the same?
*Sometimes the example of jaundice is used, but as I understand it, jaundice does not
actually cause people to see white as yellow.
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Kevin
Top

Virgo wrote:
It's not ridiculous at all. Why does someone with cataracts see what you see as
white as yellow?* Why can you distinguish green from blue from gray, but
someone who is color blind sees them all as the same?
*Sometimes the example of jaundice is used, but as I understand it, jaundice
does not actually cause people to see white as yellow.
Kevin
These are oftrepeated examples from various Buddhist teachers, but let's be scientific
minded scrutinizers for a moment: does the color blind person or jaundiced person actually
change the structure of the appearance? In order for water to appear as lava, it is much
more than a color shift due to faulty personal equipment. A better example would be an
insane person who believes his friends and family are demons... however, even this is not a
very good example because we are in the same realm and can clearly see he is suffering a
misperception of our shared vision; he is obviously not a preta or hellbeing or anything else.
The thing that always trips me out about this whole idea is the simple fact that we can whip
out microscopes and scrutinize at a very fine level of detail. It's not foggy, dreamy stuff "out
there" that we just aren't looking at closely. In our world, whether it's water or lava, there is
a very different chemical structure; is it not the same in the hellbeings' dimension? If it is,
then why would we believe we are sharing phenomena with different appearances? Different
chemical structures = different appearances. Weirder to imagine different appearances
overlapped in the same space. Then again, quantum physicist Michio Kaku believes it looks
likely that the are dinosaurs in our living room in a different wavelength or frequency or
something, so what the hell do I know?
Top

padma norbu wrote:

These are oftrepeated examples from various Buddhist teachers, but let's be
scientificminded scrutinizers for a moment: does the color blind person or
jaundiced person actually change the structure of the appearance? In order for
water to appear as lava, it is much more than a color shift due to faulty
personal equipment. A better example would be an insane person who believes
his friends and family are demons... however, even this is not a very good
example because we are in the same realm and can clearly see he is suffering a
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misperception of our shared vision; he is obviously not a preta or hellbeing or

anything else. The thing that always trips me out about this whole idea is the
simple fact that we can whip out microscopes and scrutinize at a very fine level
of detail. It's not foggy, dreamy stuff "out there" that we just aren't looking at
closely. In our world, whether it's water or lava, there is a very different
chemical structure; is it not the same in the hellbeings' dimension? If it is, then
why would we believe we are sharing phenomena with different appearances?
Different chemical structures = different appearances. Weirder to imagine
different appearances overlapped in the same space. Then again, quantum
physicist Michio Kaku believes it looks likely that the are dinosaurs in our living
room in a different wavelength or frequency or something, so what the hell do I
know?
I'll be honest with you Padma. I feel science is extremely limited. It's very young, and it will
need more time before it can advance further, but, because of the very nature of the
scientific method, it is very good for certain things, and very limited for others. For example,
it does not accept logical inference. I am not downing the practical value of science (it is
extremely helpful in certain ways, no doubt), but I think modern people are way too
scientifically minded, to their detriment. All the bullshit you believe from science will be
revised within a hundred years. People practically worshiped Newton, and his theories are
right. But when you look at later scientific developments, you realize his theories weren't
that right.
So I'm really not concerned with what science has to say about this.
Kevin
Top

Nagarjuna, for example, is scientific method in philosophy and when I refered to "science"
here I was including philosophy (not religion or faithbased arguments [e.g. "I trust the
tantras"]) since philosophy is logicbased argumentation. So, then, your example of jaundice
and colorblindness do not hold up to logical scrutiny since it is very easy to poke a hole in the
comparison, as I have. As a matter of fact, I would like to read anything Nagarjuna has to say
about the possibility of various realms and appearances.
Oh, btw, I'm not saying I don't believe in this idea. I'm just saying there must be something
more to it and much of the explanation is missing. Difference in appearance of the same
object only goes so far in my relative experience and I suppose it is impossible to analyze
other realms or dimensions from this one, eh?
Lasteditedbypadmanorbu(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1027)onSun
Nov06,20115:51am,edited1timeintotal.
Top

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Virgo wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:
If a person is reborn as a "frog", then it happens right hereandnow,
mentally, and not after a person physically dies.
So if I encounter a frog, is that a being who was mentally reborn as a frog

during a human life because of a mindstate, or is it just a real frog?
I don't think I've ever met a person who was mentally born as a frog, so I'll speak of a person
who is mentally born as a fox, if that's okay.
A person who is mentally born as a fox will have the physical form of a human being, but the
mental characteristics of a fox. They will have little in the way of consciousness and wisdom,
but they will be stealthy and cunning, naturally sexual, and with few qualms about harming
others for their own gain.
We say that such a person is born as a fox purely as a means of descriptive convenience. We
don't intend to imply any physical relationship to an actual physical fox.
If you encounter a physical fox or frog, there's no easy way that I know of to discover whether
their mind has any significant relationship to any human.
Does that make it clear?
Top

byCazSunNov06,20115:55am
Mentally born as a fox ? Where did Buddha teach about being mentally born as an animal ?
People can act like animals sure but they are even mentally far from them.
Top

byLastLegendSunNov06,20116:24am
I will say I am experiencing physical or serial rebirth right now as I am possessing a physical
body right. Though ultimately rebirth whether physical or mental is an illusion, but only to
Buddha or an enlightenned being. At my level right now, my mind is not empty. And if you hit
me, I will feel pain and react. So you can tell me this is an illusion but I will still feel pain.
I don't know if rebirth is an illusion or not because I am not enlightenned or Buddha. But I
believe that it is.
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If rebirth is an illusion, why do I feel pain?

Top

byretrofuturistSunNov06,20116:33am
Greetings,
With respect to realms, perhaps it would be more profitable to regard them as experiential
than to bifurcate them as mental or physical?
Maitri,
Retro.
Top

retrofuturist wrote:
perhaps it would be more profitable to regard them as experiential than to
bifurcate them as mental or physical?
I'm happy to go along with that, but then "experiential" sounds a lot more mental than
physical. Namdrol will be turning in his grave!
LasteditedbyKevinSolway(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1526)onSun
Nov06,20118:17am,edited1timeintotal.
Top

KevinSolway wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
perhaps it would be more profitable to regard them as experiential than
to bifurcate them as mental or physical?
I'm happy to go along with that, but then "experiential" sounds a lot more
mental than physical. Namdrol will be turning in his grave!:
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How do you know it's more mental than physical? If you have a mental experience of softness
when you touch something soft are a soft physical object, as well as your physical sensory
apparatus, not both necessary for that mental experience to arise?
Kevin
Top

bymuniSunNov06,20117:38am
KevinSolway wrote:
[
So I'm a person named "Dave"... and to top it off, I'm a female, dancing dog as
well!
Well pleased to meet you,
not any difference from all other imagined titles anyway.
Top
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Re: Are Karma and Rebirth For Real?

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Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64458)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64459)

And you know this how?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64460)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64461)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64465)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64466)

padma norbu wrote:

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64470)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64480)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64481)

I did not read this whole thread.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64483)

padma norbu wrote:

padma norbu wrote:

padma norbu wrote:

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64487)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64488)

padma norbu wrote:

misperception of our shared vision; he is obviously not a preta or hellbeing or

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64498)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64502)

So if I encounter a frog, is that a being who was mentally reborn as a frog

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64505)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64509)

If rebirth is an illusion, why do I feel pain?

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64510)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64516)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64517)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64518)

Well pleased to meet you,

not any difference from all other imagined titles anyway.

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