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real estate private equity. In fact, two of the most highly-trafficked posts on the blog
are about navigating the real estate private equity interview process (part I / part II).
Real estate private equity is an appealing career path, yet its incredibly competitive
and often-times misunderstood. One of my good buddies from Tufts has been working
in real estate PE for the past 5 years and I asked him to share his story and shed some
light on what its really like working in real estate private equity.
Why did you get into real estate and what led you to seek a
role in Real Estate PE?
I grew up spending high school summers working as a construction day laborer on a
variety of residential and commercial projects. Although I was at the bottom of the
labor totem pole, even to this day I believe there are few feelings more rewarding
than taking part in transforming a home, a small shop space or an office floor from
tired obsolete space to an aesthetically pleasing modern efficient space. Over my four
year stint as a grunt, I developed an appreciation for architecture as well as a
satisfaction for tangible change. Fast forward and during my undergraduate studies I
quickly found architecture to be far more art history based early on (read I am
impatient) and that economics/business was a far more intellectually stimulating field
for me. After college, I had stints with a retail developer and a debt financing shop.
Both were educational experiences where I began to grow the foundation of my real
estate investment education. That said, I eventually yearned for an opportunity to
become a real estate investor where I envisioned I could look at an array of real estate
investment opportunities and use my finance background coupled with construction
and design passion to prudently choose which investments I believed were good risk
adjusted bets.
and so forth and find it very appealing/sexy industry. Real estate PE really took off
post 2000 and clearly was a poster child pre the Great Recession. Everyone wants to
be the next Jon Gray.
What are some of the career paths within Real Estate PE?
There is no set path. Some people climb the ladder and desire to become a partner of a
fund. Others take their experience and take an entrepreneurial gamble to set up their
own fund or become an operating partner.
https://www.getrefm.com/index/referrer/CNWR_16781292355068
Q: Lets start with how you won this last-minute investment banking offer in the first
place.
A: Sure. I grew up in a family of doctors, so there was always pressure to go into medicine.
But it never interested me, so I leaned in the business direction instead.
I went to a well-known, but not exactly target, university some banks recruited there, but
mostly for regional offices.
My major was unrelated to finance, so most of my knowledge came from joining IB and other
finance / investment groups on campus.
I recruited for everything from prop trading to real estate to corporate finance, but I won 0 job
offers until an off-cycle IB job opened up in April.
It was a capital markets role in a real estate investment banking group, and I got the interview
because a friend referred me to them.
I went through multiple rounds of interviews and won the offer right as I was graduating the
interviews consisted of many fit questions, along with questions testing my knowledge of real
estate lingo (cap rates, NOI, etc.).
Q: Yeah, networking can produce good results even when its 1-2 months before
graduation.
What happened next?
A: Four days before my start date, my offer was rescinded.
It happened because of a misdemeanor I had been charged with 4 years ago; it was minor and it
had been expunged from my record, but that didnt matter.
Q: Wow. And you didnt know about this at all before accepting the offer?
A: I was caught off-guard because I assumed that an expunged misdemeanor would not matter.
But at large banks, they are very stringent and they can reject you or rescind an offer for almost
anything.
It doesnt matter whether the charge has been expunged from your records or dismissed from the
courts even something like writing a bounced check could be a red flag in their eyes.
My advice is to seek legal counsel and avoid asking anonymous people online what to do. No
one except a qualified legal professional can advise you on the specifics.
After you win an offer from a group, you should let them know about any red flags in your
background and any previous charges, even if theyve been expunged or dismissed.
You dont want to tell them late in the on-boarding process after youve already filled out all the
forms, but you also dont want to tell them when you first start interviewing because it could kill
your chances.
Bulge bracket banks tend to be very strict about background checks due to compliance and HR
policies, but smaller firms and non-banks will not care as much about these issues.
Q: Is there anything else you can do to win offers in the face of strict background checks?
A: In the US, you can get a section 19 waiver from the FDIC. I didnt know about this option at
the time, but I wish I had.
This is a cant say no waiver that you can present to large banks if you have expunged items
on your record that still show up in a background check.
If you contact the person in your regional office and then send proof of expungement and the
other information they request, they may be able to issue this waiver to you.
There are a few caveats:
The waiver can be issued very quickly or it can turn into a long, drawn-out 6-month
process.
There are requirements on the number of years that must have passed since the offense,
and what your original penalty was.
It does not help with all offenses for example, the waiver covers breach of trust,
misdemeanor, and theft, but it does NOT cover perjury.
Im not sure if this is valid for the series licenses (Series 7, 79, etc.) or for FINRA
requirements.
Bottom-Line: The Section 19 waiver wont always work, but it is worth looking into. Banks
can rescind your offer for any reason, but this waiver may help you in some cases.
NOTE: To be clear, this site does NOT give legal advice.
Please consult an attorney or other legal professional before you apply for this waiver, and ask
them about specific requirements and the waivers applicability to your own situation.
Into Commercial Real Estate
Q: So what was your next move after this rescinded offer?
A: I tried to get some people in the group to fight for me, but they had no power to override
global HR/compliance policies.
I was still interested in real estate, so I decided to go for commercial real estate / brokerage
roles.
It was a hot area in the city I lived in at the time, and I figured that I could network my way in
since its a local industry and everyone knows each other.
I worked a few part-time jobs to pay the bills, and on the side I did a lot of real estate-related
self-education: I took classes to get my brokers license, I learned ARGUS and received a
certification for that, and I joined groups like the Young Real Estate Professionals.
I focused on firms that did land assemblage (securing land and getting it under contract) and
tenant representation because I thought it would be easier to win offers there.
Through the industry groups I joined, I met someone who had been in CRE for over 20 years and
had started his own boutique firm a few years ago.
So I reached out to him and he introduced me to other people at his firm, which led to interviews
there.
Q: Im assuming they cared less about expunged charges on your record.
A: Yes! The interview process was almost 100% fit, and they assessed whether or not I could
get up to speed quickly on tools like GIS for finding tax and parcel information.
Much of the role was business development, so they also assessed how well I could generate
and prioritize leads, follow-up with them, and so on.
This firm still did a background check, but my legal issue did not come up this time.
Larger brokerage firms might care about those issues, so your mileage may vary.
Q: Right. So what was this new role like?
A: In some ways, it was similar to an IB analyst role: the senior broker at the firm drove most
of the business, and I stayed in the office creating the equivalent of pitch books, writing
proposals and memos, working with clients, and responding to inquiries on listings.
At a tiny firm like this, the job was even more of a jack of all trades role.
Small teams in CRE typically focus on one property type (multi-family, office, industrial, etc.),
and this team also focused on one specific sector.
Q: But you ended up leaving.
Was that because you still wanted to do IB/PE?
A: A few days after the first round of interviews, they invited me back in and set up a laptop and
a stack of papers for me in a conference room.
They gave me 3 years of operating statements for an office complex, along with a rent roll
(which shows all the tenants, their lease types, renewal dates, and so on), and asked me to create
financial projections for the property and make them look as similar as possible to the historical
statements.
The goal was to estimate the Cap Rate for Class A office properties in a certain region, based on
the operating statements and data on recent sales in the area.
I only had 90 minutes for the exercise, so knowing the ARGUS keyboard shortcuts was
essential.
Q: So you finished on-time, and then won the offer?
A: No!
I finished on-time, but I didnt know how to enter quite a few line items into ARGUS.
The standard ARGUS classes dont teach you how to model everything that you see in real life
for properties.
So when I finished I told them, I wasnt sure about items A, B, and C if its possible, I would
like to take this case study home over the weekend and figure out the correct treatment, and then
show you the final version once I have it.
I did that, took it home, and started working on it over the weekend
And then they called me on Saturday and gave me the offer instead!
They were confident that I knew enough to figure out the rest, and they liked how I had taken the
initiative to get all the answers.
Oh, and being reachable on the weekend helped.
Q: Sounds like it!
Just to be clear on ARGUS: do all real estate investment firms actually use it?
Ive heard mixed reports.
A: It is more common for office developments; you dont use it as frequently for multi-family
properties.
Different people also use it differently.
For example, many firms use it to generate cash flow figures, but then use their own Excel
models for other tasks such as modeling IRR, debt repayments, and distributions to different
investor classes.
So the usefulness of ARGUS varies by the firm youre interviewing at.
If youre determined to be in real estate, its good to learn but it wont always be a make-orbreak factor.
Q: Great.
And what has the job been like so far? I realize you started relatively recently.
A: I havent been there very long yet, but a few early impressions:
I go in around 9 AM and the average day is about 12 hours; we own a lot of assets in the western
part of the US but are based in the east, so we aim to be there early in the day Pacific Time.
We only have 5-6 people total, but we might hire someone else in the next few months. The
workplace is fairly laid-back, but fire drills definitely happen when a deal heats up.
The work itself is varied: I might do everything from updating ARGUS model assumptions to
crunching the numbers on new tenants and tenant renewals to helping the firm sell its older
properties (the legacy portfolio). Cross-checking broker opinions of value also takes up time.
The compensation structure is interesting because eventually Ill be able to invest my own
equity in deals.
So its like traditional carry at PE and VC firms, but even junior-level employees at the firm
can participate (after theyve worked here long enough).
Im pleased so far, and I plan to stay here for at least another 3-4 years.
As long as the role keeps evolving, Ill stay interested in it theyve already mentioned that I
may do more deal sourcing or more equity/debt financing work as the firm grows.
Q: Awesome. Thanks for your time!
A: My pleasure.
Core Investing is all about stability and getting high single-digit returns by operating existing
assets. Theres less risk when a building is already operational and generating rental income
backed by long-term leases from the tenants think of the GM Building in New York or a classA regional mall as example core investments.
Since these are stable assets that provide a steady income stream to the owners, pension funds
are the main investors in core funds.
You also see Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs) both publicly traded REITs and private
REITs in this space, as well as core real estate funds run by real estate investment managers
such as AEW and RREEF. The big, diversified financial companies like J.P. Morgan and
Morgan Stanley also have real estate arms that invest in property directly.
A Little More Risk, A Little More Reward
After you leave this Core Investing space, you get into Value-Add and Opportunistic Strategies
the line between these two types of strategies can be blurred, but Opportunistic funds usually
seek higher returns than Value-Add strategies.
Value-Add strategies will often invest in Core-like assets that have some sort of upside through
re-development or lease-up of vacant space. Opportunistic strategies can do the same, but they
can sometimes add more leverage to juice returns. Like I said, the line between the two can be
blurry.
Returns are typically in the 15 20% range, but may go higher depending on how risky the
strategy is. Some REITs and core funds managers dabble in this space (more toward Value-Add),
but this is where PE shops enter the picture since returns are more attractive.
At the riskiest end of the spectrum is real estate development and the players there are all
over the map.
Some REITs actually have large development pipelines and land banks and invest significant
resources into constructing new properties examples include AvalonBay [AVB] (apartments)
and ProLogis [PLD] (industrial), which had a $4B global development pipeline at the market
peak back in the boom times of 2007.
Private equity can sometimes be active in development, but usually only as the capital partner to
developers. This is where the PE shop will fund a local developer that has the development
expertise but needs funding.
Then you also have large private companies like Opus that focus on real estate development.
Risk = Reward?
Based on the descriptions above, you might think that real estate development offers the
highest potential returns and the highest pay since its also the riskiest.
But youd be wrong since its a boom-and-bust business.
While PLD had a $4B development pipeline at the market peak, it dwindled down to less than
$500MM after the market collapsed; three of Opus five major subsidiaries filed for bankruptcy
in the past downturn. Sure, they made money when the market was good, but they lost their
shirts when the market turned bad.
This is not to say that real estate development is bad just don't jump into it expecting to make
bank right away. Its great if youre into the brick-and-mortars side of real estate, but otherwise
think about the other options above.
Youve also got asset management firms and hedge funds that specialize in real estate
securities (REITs) across the globe. If you want to blend real estate and the public markets, these
can be good options.
How to Break Into Commercial Real Estate
As with everything else in finance, at the entry-level youre just a high-paid spreadsheet monkey.
A typical path for breaking in is to go to a target school and then get into real estate
investment banking thats what many of the top people at the biggest real estate firms and
REITs have done.
Mike Fascitelli, CEO of Vornado [VNO], is an example of a real estate big shot that followed
this path. He went to Harvard for his MBA, started at McKinsey, and then went to Goldman as a
real estate investment banker. After several years at Goldman, Steve Roth lured Fascitelli away
from banking to work at VNO.
But you dont have to follow that path to break in and an MBA isnt even a prerequisite.
The best example is Jonathan Gray, the co-head of Blackstones real estate group Gray started
at Blackstone with just an undergraduate degree from Wharton and worked his way up to
become co-head of the entire real estate group by age 35. At age 37, he was busy pulling off the
EOP acquisition, the biggest private equity buyout ever!
Yes, Wharton is a target school and it also happens to be one of the top undergraduate schools
for real estate but more importantly, it has a great real estate alumni network.
Just like everything else in finance, leveraging your alumni network is essential to breaking in.
Other top undergraduate schools for real estate in the US include UC Berkeley, USC, and
Wisconsin these are well-known institutions, but theyre not the Ivy League and theyre not
the ones that immediately come to mind when you think of a target.
Real estate is very much a who you know business and having a well-connected alumni base is
critical if youre at a school without much of a presence in real estate, your next best option is
to get an MBA at a school with a strong real estate program.
If youre already out of school and working, you could get involved in trade groups like ICSC,
ULI, or YREP if theres one in your area.
Whatever you decide to do, networking is even more important in real estate than in other
industries so start pounding the pavement as soon as possible.
But if youre interested in capital markets, you need real estate investment banking experience
or an MBA REITs are one of the main exit opportunities for RE bankers since you advise
REITs all the time as a banker.
Bottom-line: if youre more interested in finance, go the banking route and look for REIT exit
opportunities; if youre more interested in the bricks-and-sticks part of real estate, skip banking
and go straight into development or acquisitions.
Compensation: Boardwalk or Baltic Ave?
Unfortunately, there are few good data sources on real estate compensation but in general,
pay is commensurate with risk and expected returns, at least on the buy-side.
The main exception is development its the riskiest investment class and yet the pay is also
the worst.
You might think of Donald Trump and say, Aha! Real estate development is where the moneys
at! but dont be fooled by the celebrities: there is big money to be made in development, but not
in the way you might expect.
The real money in development accrues to those that put their money at risk in the
developments.
To complete construction of a new property, the developer itself only puts down a very small
portion of the total equity maybe 5% or less. Many times you will find that the developer
simply contributes their land basis as the only equity in the project. The developer will then use
debt and mezzanine financing to fund the entire construction cost.
So, start with very little money in the project and then add the fact that theres no cash flow from
properties that are under development until tenants move in and rental income starts flowing.
Even the fees the developers charge are not great compared to the overhead, so there isnt much
money left to pay salaries to employees.
Developers don't make money until the project is built, fully-leased, and then either sold or
refinanced as an operating building. Until that happens, expect to be eating ramen noodles.
So do not get into development if money is your main goal only do it if youre interested in
building and construction side of real estate. You will not make it big until you have enough
money to invest in development projects yourself.
For core funds and REITs, pay is consistent with base salaries for recent graduates elsewhere
in finance the main difference is that you wont receive Wall Street-like bonuses in these jobs
because the fees and returns are lower than in PE, for example.
On the private equity, hedge fund, and asset management side, compensation is similar to what
you would earn at non-real estate funds. So real estate PE is similar to normal PE, real estate
HFs are similar to normal HFs, and REIT-focused asset management is similar to normal asset
management.
And on the investment banking side, you dont see much of a difference at the junior levels
between real estate banking and other groups.
Exit Opportunities
As with other buy-side jobs, the buy side itself is the end-game. Once you get there, its just a
matter of working your way up until you become the next Jonathan Gray.
Be careful of getting pigeonholed: just as actors get typecast over time, you will also get
typecast the longer you stay with the same job. So if you get into real estate and dont like it,
move on as quickly as possible or it will become more and more difficult to find a non-real estate
job.
In addition to moving up the ladder, investing in real estate yourself is another possibility: a
number of friends have amassed nice little portfolios of multi-family assets. It's not uncommon
to get a few friends or relatives together to purchase small rental properties.
Raising a small fund of your own is also possible, but just as with starting a hedge fund you
need to raise some seed money to get started you would go to friends and family first, show
solid performance, and then approach a broader set of investors once you can point to results.
Do You Have an Edifice Complex?
Its a great field to get into, but dont expect to become Donald Trump right away.
Until you have enough cash to fund massive real estate developments by yourself, you wont see
your name on any buildings.
The long-term prospects for real estate are always positive. After all, the world isn't making any
more land anytime soon.
Even More on Real Estate
If you want to learn more about the modeling and valuation side of real estate, check out the new
Breaking Into Wall Street Real Estate & REIT Modeling course, which covers both individual
properties and REITs via case studies of an apartment complex, an office development and sale,
a hotel acquisition and renovation, and Avalon Bay, a leading apartment REIT. Life on the Buy
Side readers will also receive a free $47 PowerPoint bonus course.
Even if you have no interest in the course, you can learn a good amount from the free sample
lessons and quick reference guides on the page.
Note: This article was also featured as a guest post over at Mergers & Inquisitions.