Hey everyone,

3.
4. So I've been working on Wayne Shorter's Mahjong, and was hoping someone
would help me sort out a couple of the sections. I've been using the changes
found in the link below:
5.
6. http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$189
7.
8. The melody is mostly an F minor pentatonic, with a couple of D's thrown in,
implying Dorian, at least to me. The melody is first stated over the Fmin7,
then again over the Dbmaj7, with a couple slight alterations (playing an F#),
which imply he's playing a Db major scale. But he still plays a D over the
Dbmaj. So my first question is how does the D in the melody work over the
Dbmaj7?
9.
10.
I think I have bars 17-19 sorted out, but I'd love to hear what other
people think. I interpret that section as being in Dbmaj, with the D7
functioning as a tritone sub, followed by a ii-V-I. Is that correct?
11.
12.
My final question is concerning bar 20. The second half of this bar seems
to make sense to me, a tritone sub borrowed from the key of Fmajor. But the
Dbmin7, particularly when preceded by a Dbmaj7, I can't make sense of.
Where is that Dbmin7 coming from?
13.
14.
Any help would really be really appreciated. Thanks,
15.
16.
Michael

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18. September 8th, 2011, 07:44 PM

#2
engelbach
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Originally Posted by MJS

Hey everyone,

19.
20. So I've been working on Wayne Shorter's Mahjong, and was hoping someone would help me sort out
a couple of the sections. I've been using the changes found in the link below:
21.
22. http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$189
23.
24. The melody is mostly an F minor pentatonic, with a couple of D's thrown in, implying Dorian, at least
to me. The melody is first stated over the Fmin7, then again over the Dbmaj7, with a couple slight
alterations (playing an F#), which imply he's playing a Db major scale. But he still plays a D over the
Dbmaj. So my first question is how does the D in the melody work over the Dbmaj7?
25.
26. I think I have bars 17-19 sorted out, but I'd love to hear what other people think. I interpret that
section as being in Dbmaj, with the D7 functioning as a tritone sub, followed by a ii-V-I. Is that
correct?
27.
28. My final question is concerning bar 20. The second half of this bar seems to make sense to me, a
tritone sub borrowed from the key of Fmajor. But the Dbmin7, particularly when preceded by a
Dbmaj7, I can't make sense of. Where is that Dbmin7 coming from?
29.
30. Any help would really be really appreciated. Thanks,
31.
32. Michael

33.
34.
35.
36.
37.
38.

39.
40.
41.
42.

The New Real Book, Volume Two has not Fm7 but F7sus alternating with
Eb69. They amount to the same thing in this tune in terms of voicings and
scales.
While the melody at first is pentatonic, and the key signature is Fm/Ab, I
agree that D natural feels more ... natural ... than Db over those changes. I
don't really understand why there are four flats in the key signature.
The reason you see D naturals over Db in the melody is that the
changes are really Db13 alternating with Eb69. Song Trellis often shows
wrong changes.
However, I see nothing wrong with playing D natural over Db13. It
would put the whole Latin section of the tune in one mode, F Dorian. In this
kind of quartal harmony the constant horizontal movement of the chords tends
to negate the dissonance between Db and D. I suppose D or Db could be
played as a matter of choice, depending on the melody one creates.
In the left hand on the piano, the quartal voicings for F7sus and Db13
are the same, F-Bb-Eb.
Yes, I hear the D7#9 as a tritone sub for Ab7. The C#m7 does imply that
the tune is moving somewhere else, but the following F#7 and F7sus tell me
that it is just the IIm7 in a tritone sub for IIm7-V7-I. I don't know what music
theory calls it.

Jerry Engelbach, piano/arrange/compose

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47. September 8th, 2011, 09:31 PM

#3
MJS
Registered User
Join Date
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Posts
3

48.
49.

50.
51.
52.
53.

Much appreciated Jerry, that helps a great deal. Those chords sound much
more appropriate for the tune. It's high time I get a couple real books.
Now that I have a better understanding of what's going on theoretically,
I'm wondering how would you deal with bar 17 on a practical level? In the
head it seems like he's playing something in Db major over that whole section
(bars 17-20), and I'm having trouble addressing the tritone sub before,
instead of within, the ii-V-I that follows it. I gues Db major over the whole
thing isn't really a bad start?
Also, how would you deal with bar 20 (a one bar ii-V in B?). Would you try
and play something in B major and try to connect it back to the F7sus
chromatically?
Thanks again.

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55. September 8th, 2011, 09:41 PM

#4
engelbach
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Originally Posted by MJS

Much appreciated Jerry, that helps a great deal. Those chords sound much more appropriate for the
tune. It's high time I get a couple real books.
56.
57. Now that I have a better understanding of what's going on theoretically, I'm wondering how would
you deal with bar 17 on a practical level? In the head it seems like he's playing something in Db major
over that whole section (bars 17-20), and I'm having trouble addressing the tritone sub before,
instead of within, the ii-V-I that follows it. I gues Db major over the whole thing isn't really a bad
start?
58.
59. Also, how would you deal with bar 20 (a one bar ii-V in B?). Would you try and play something in B
major and try to connect it back to the F7sus chromatically?
60.
61. Thanks again.

Oh, I'm not so fancy. With short, faux modulations like that I play the
changes, trying to make the melody fit the chords. I'd treat C#m7 as it is, in
B, but treat the F#7 as a tritone sub for C7, altering any notes that help that
feeling along, such as #5, b9, or #9.

Jerry Engelbach, piano/arrange/compose

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66. September 9th, 2011, 08:15 AM

#5
MJS
Registered User

Join Date
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Posts
3

Great, thanks Jerry.

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68. September 9th, 2011, 01:00 PM

#6
Fred
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Location
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The alternating fundamentals "f" and "eb" in the first 8 bars could be either
assigned to a Mixolydian or a Dorian cadence. I tend to assign it to a dorian
cadence because neither in Shorters nor in McCoys playing apears no single
"a" but only "ab".
69.
The dorian sequence therefore must be Fm7sus (dorian) alternating with
Eb6/9 (ionian). The fitting pentatonic scales are Ab Pentatonik, Eb Pentatonik
or Bb Pentatonik or a mix out of them. (See also my post on mixed pentatonic
scales.)
70.
71.
The second 8 bars are based on a lydian cadence, alternating the chord
DbMA7 (lydian) and Eb13sus (mixolydian).
72.
73.
The following 4 bars are based on functional harmony.
74.
75.
| D7alt. (MM7) | Ebm7 (dor.) Ab7 (mix.) | DbMA7 (ion.) | C#m7 (dor.)
F#7 (MM4) |

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77. September 9th, 2011, 07:41 PM

#7
engelbach
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Originally Posted by Fred

The alternating fundamentals "f" and "eb" in the first 8 bars could be either assigned to a Mixolydian
or a Dorian cadence. I tend to assign it to a dorian cadence because neither in Shorters nor in McCoys
playing apears no single "a" but only "ab".
78. The dorian sequence therefore must be Fm7sus (dorian) alternating with Eb6/9 (ionian). The fitting
pentatonic scales are Ab Pentatonik, Eb Pentatonik or Bb Pentatonik or a mix out of them. (See also
my post on mixed pentatonic scales.)
79.
80. The second 8 bars are based on a lydian cadence, alternating the chord DbMA7 (lydian) and Eb13sus
(mixolydian).
81.
82. The following 4 bars are based on functional harmony.
83.
84. | D7alt. (MM7) | Ebm7 (dor.) Ab7 (mix.) | DbMA7 (ion.) | C#m7 (dor.) F#7 (MM4) |

85.
86.
87.
88.
89.
90.

Although the Sher book uses F7sus, not Fm7sus, I'm not sure it makes any
difference.
I don't see in the chart or hear in the recording Eb13sus. Where do you
hear it?
I can't see the point of thinking in different modes for, for example, Db,
Ebm7, and Ab7. It seems needlessly complicated to me.
For one thing, the section is not modal, it's tonal. And they're all in one
key, Db major, using the same pitch collection.

Jerry Engelbach, piano/arrange/compose

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95. September 10th, 2011, 04:28 AM

#8
beeboss
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Posts
514

Originally Posted by engelbach

Although the Sher book uses F7sus, not Fm7sus, I'm not sure it makes any difference.

96.

I suppose if you are just working from the chord chart F7sus does not really
imply either a major or minor sound (it could be either) but Mahjong is pretty
obviously in the minor. Maybe it is a good idea for the chord symbols to reflect
this. It is not really important though.

97.

Originally Posted by engelbach

I don't see in the chart or hear in the recording Eb13sus. Where do you hear it?

98.

Bizarre, I can't think why they would have put that chord in there.
I just checked my 6th edition real book and it has something like these
chords, but the 5th edition doesn't.

99.
100.
Now I check the original recording the bass in the 1st 8 does go
101.
F | Eb | but there is no Db in the voicing there I think. The piano vamp
does not really follow the change.
102.
103.
In the 2nd 8 the chords do change each bar (McCoy marks the change
more directly) but I think it is more like
104.
|Db6 add9 | Eb6 add9|
105.
106.
In the 6th ed real book the 2nd chord is labelled as Eb69 (with the 6
being placed above the 9 in the symbol), but this is a pretty ambiguous
symbol as it is not immediately clear whether it is supposed to be a major or
dominant type chord. I find Eb6/9 a little less ambiguous because I am more
used to seeing it (it is a major type sound) but Eb6 add9 is really really clear
and not ambiguous at all.
107.
The Eb13sus is just wrong I think, according to a quick listen of the
original version at least.
108.
109.
The real problem is that when there is a sequence like this where the

sound relies so heavily on a particular piano voicing chord then symbols can
become ambiguous or worse. Especially when it is McCoy playing voicings in
4ths.
110.
Better to have a listen than to learn it from the book in this case.
111.
112.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTNnDBnEHk8

113.

114.
#9

September 10th, 2011, 11:02 AM

engelbach
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Originally Posted by beeboss

I suppose if you are just working from the chord chart F7sus does not really imply either a major or
minor sound (it could be either) but Mahjong is pretty obviously in the minor. Maybe it is a good idea
for the chord symbols to reflect this. It is not really important though.

115.
116.
Bizarre, I can't think why they would have put that chord in there.
117.
I just checked my 6th edition real book and it has something like these chords, but the 5th
edition doesn't.
118.
119.
Now I check the original recording the bass in the 1st 8 does go
120.
F | Eb | but there is no Db in the voicing there I think. The piano vamp does not really follow the
change.
121.
122.
In the 2nd 8 the chords do change each bar (McCoy marks the change more directly) but I think
it is more like
123.
|Db6 add9 | Eb6 add9|
124.
125.
In the 6th ed real book the 2nd chord is labelled as Eb69 (with the 6 being placed above the 9 in
the symbol), but this is a pretty ambiguous symbol as it is not immediately clear whether it is
supposed to be a major or dominant type chord. I find Eb6/9 a little less ambiguous because I am
more used to seeing it (it is a major type sound) but Eb6 add9 is really really clear and not ambiguous
at all.
126.
The Eb13sus is just wrong I think, according to a quick listen of the original version at least.
127.
128.
The real problem is that when there is a sequence like this where the sound relies so heavily on
a particular piano voicing chord then symbols can become ambiguous or worse. Especially when it is
McCoy playing voicings in 4ths.
129.
Better to have a listen than to learn it from the book in this case.
130.
131.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTNnDBnEHk8

Yes, symbols don't always accurately reflect the sound of quartals in constant
horizontal movement.
132.
133.
Eb69 is not really ambiguous. It always denotes a major chord. However,
in this case, going by the recording, it stands for the quartal G C F, with Eb in
the bass.
134.
135.
One could play an Eb7sus quartal as part of that movement, over the Db
bass -- Eb Ab Db -- but I don't hear it on the recording. However, where the
symbol may have come from is the Db Ab pedal under G C F, which makes a
strange voicing of a rootless Eb13sus(add3).
136.
137.
Otherwise I don't see how one could make a quartal out of Eb13sus.
There's no way to voice 7, 4, and 13 in fourths.
138.
139.
McCoy's quartals on the recording are not difficult to figure out, although I
haven't taken the time to listen closely to them all.
140.
141.
One can play the tune strictly from the chart and get the gist of it. But of
course it's valuable to hear and learn from what McCoy does with it.

Jerry
142.
143.
144.

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