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Jesus Christ as God and Pre-existing:

In response to arguments and dialog with those who believe there is only one God
being in existence, this discussion is presented below with comments. In order to
entertain the "One God" concept as being taught by some, we have to address the
following scriptures that add up to just one conclusion: That these scriptures clearly
refer to a being that had pre-existence to His human birth as the Word, and became
our savior. This isn't close to all the references we could bring up on this topic but it
certainly holds a lot of weight for Christ being God and eternally existing with the
If a reasonable answer can be scripturally given to explain these scriptures and what is
being said, then dialog can continue.
John 1:1-4 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through
Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the
life was the light of men. :10-14 He was in the world, and the world was made
through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own
did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of
blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And
the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of
the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Comments: Why go to this great length of double speak to talk about just one being?
Why even mention that "without Him nothing was made that was made?" How else
could anything be made if there is just one being called God? World made
THROUGH him...? The word became flesh... ONLY begotten. Notice vs :2... He (the
same) was in the beginning with God...?
It takes a great deal of manipulation of thought to exclude the fact that this is referring
to a separate thought/concept apart from God. Why delineate a difference between
God, His word, and then mention multiple places that this "word" is what did the
creating, apart from God?
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew
him not.
His Answer: The first verses are setting the background as to where Jesus came
from, and that was God, his Father. Nothing was made without the "word" from

the mind of God, the Father. There was "God" and there were others in his
Kingdom. He is the "God of gods" and the "Eternal of Hosts." God fathered his
Son, who became flesh in the womb of his mother, Mary. The life that became the
man Jesus Christ was the life of the Father. No manipulation is required at all, if
you read this without preconceived ideas and punctuation added by the
translators. A man's word is from that man, and is "with him." It is the same
with God. We are what we think. The Bible does not say that the "word" did any
creating on its own, but as God's thought power. John 1:10 He was in the world,
and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. This could very
well be translated as "the world was made for him." The world was made for
man, just as the Sabbath was made for man and not "by" him. There is also a
possibility that John was speaking allegorically, just as in Proverbs, "Wisdom"
and "Prudence" were with God as if brought up with him.
Hebrews 1:2 "Has in these last days spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has
appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;"
His Answer: The correct translation, if you check, is "through him he also made
the ages." And, that could be "on account of him."
Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which
from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things
through Jesus Christ;"
Comment: Through whom He (Father) made the worlds... The Father created the
universe THROUGH "WHOM" ... whom indicates another entity, not just words.
How could the Father create the whole universe through Jesus Christ if He hadn't yet
been created?
His answer: Check and you will see that the last part of this verse was not in the
original. It is not in the NRSV or NIV, and most interlinear Greek/English Bibles
note that words have been added. Also, the Greek preposition can be translated
as "on account of," which would be correct.
(It is true that the words "through Jesus Christ" are not in the original, so we have to
take the context of this scripture... "through whom..." indicating Christ, which is in
keeping with the added text, and also continue to look at others scriptures to find our
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Comment: Us...Our... plural... indicating more than one...

His answer: Yes, Yahweh was speaking to the rest of those in his kingdom, since
he is the "LORD of Hosts." Remember, Jerusalem Above, which includes an
"innumerable company of angels" is the "Mother of us all," spiritually.
(I responded to this answer:
God is saying that the rest of His created beings were going to help in the creation of
all that is? Do you really believe that? That is a major stretch of scripture. Only God
can create. What makes more sense... God used "Us" and "OUR" as part of angels, or
to mean let "US," as the Family of God, create... through the "word" who is part of
"Us"? Such arguments wouldn't hold up in a secular court, let alone in God's court.
Also, whose image are we created in? Angels? NO! We are created in God's image,
period. To try to make the "us" and "our" mean angels is twisting scriptures.)
6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen
the Father.
Comment: Christ plainly states He has seen the Father...
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You
have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Comment: No one has seen the form of the Father. (Some try to use this to say that
"no one" has heard the Father's voice, but this is referring to those Christ was speaking
Judges 13:22 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen
14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And
Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said to him, What says my
lordto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, Loose your
shoe from off your foot; for the place whereon you stand [is] holy. And Joshua did
Exodus 3:3-6 "Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why
the bush does not burn." 4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God
called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said,
"Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off
your feet, for the place where you stand [is] holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I
[am] the God of your father -- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of
Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God."

Genesis 12:7 "Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I
will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to
Genesis 32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: For I have seen God
face to face, and my life is preserved."
Deuteronomy 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the
mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud
voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave
them to me."
Comment: Seems like a few HAVE seen the Father...
1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual
Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Comment: A "rock" that was there with Israel in the wilderness... named as Christ
His answer: Jesus had not yet been born, so he was not actually there at that
time. But, the rock represented him, just as the bread and wine did when he said
"this is my body" and "this is my blood." If you believe the "rock" was Jesus
Christ in person, then you simply do not understand.
1 Cor 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were
destroyed of serpents.
Comments: Ancient Israel in the wilderness... again... tempting Christ (if you read it in
context), that spiritual rock...
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is
called The Word of God.
Comments: Same language as John 1... "word."
John 6:62 "[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was
Ascend where He was before? Before what? Why speak in these terms if this isn't
what was meant? Anyone could try to say that this means something else, but it says
what it says.

His answer: Before he was born, he was in the Father, because that is where he
came from, the Father's life. So, yes, it means what it says!
John 13:3 "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and
that He had come from God and was going to God,"
His answer: Yes, Jesus came into existence from God. All children come from
their parents. Upon his resurrection, he did go to his Father, who is also his God
and our God.
John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I
leave the world and go to the Father."
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory
which I had with You before the world was."
Comment: Hard to dismiss, or accept as being a created being or "procreated" when
He wants the glory He had before the world was created, long before He was
supposedly created.
His answer: Jesus was in his Father at this time, and the Father's glory was his
glory. Also, the Father was planning to have a Son and had glory in store for him.
Otherwise, he would not have been God's Son, if he already existed!
John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will
of Him who sent Me."
Comment: Come down from heaven... If Christ was created in Mary's womb, He
didn't come down from anywhere.
Philippians 2:5-8 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who,
being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and]
coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He
humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the
Comment: How does one who is nothing to begin with, created or procreated, "make
Himself of no reputation?" You can't be nothing, then make yourself of no

Hebrews 2:14-17 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he
also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him
that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear
of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on [him
the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in
all things it behoved him to be made like to [his] brethren, that he might be a
merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation
for the sins of the people."
Comment: " behoved him to be made like to [his] brethren" Behooved who?
Sounds like this being had a choice... willingness...
1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was
in them (some ancient Israelites such as Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb) did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
Comment: Again... third reference to Christ being "in" those in the Old Testament...
1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that
he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached to the spirits (demons) in prison; 20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in
the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls
were saved by water."
Comment: Christ preaching to demons at the time of Noah?
John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did
eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, youwould love me: for I
proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Comment: Christ states He did not come of His own, but was sent. Both of these
remarks suggest choice and decision of someone who existed at the time reference,
and NOT of someone who was created.
John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, though I bear record of myself, yet my
record is true: for I know whence I came, and wither I go; but you cannot tell whence
I come, and wither I go.

John 8:23 And he said to them, youare from beneath; I am from above: youare of this
world; I am not of this world.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do
always those things that please him.
Comments: Sounds like this person has memories of another life...
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but
for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, makest yourself God.
Comment: The Jews weren't stupid. They knew exactly what Christ was saying and
what He meant when He said "I and my Father are one." Christ didn't dispute their
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, youare gods?
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot
be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,
you blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave
me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Comment: How can you be "sent" if you didn't even exist?
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that
he was come from God, and went to God;
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
Comment: Was Thomas delusional? Did Christ correct Him on this statement?
His answer: Thomas was speaking to Jesus as his "Lord" and to the Father as his
"God." Remember, Jesus said his God was our God also. Did Thomas not agree
with Jesus? Jesus had explained earlier, when Thomas asked to see the father.
Now he understood!
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews to him, you art not yet fifty years old, and hast you seen
Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I

am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of
the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Comment: Christ was plainly using the "I am" (God) of the Old Testament in referring
to Himself and the Jews immediately went to stone Him. Why? Was Jesus Christ
mistaken in what He said?
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus says to them, I am. And Judas
also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said to them, I
am, they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom
seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I
am: if therefore you seek me, let these go their way:
Comment: I Am... before Abraham, and clearly referenced Himself as "I am" which is
mentioned in Ex 3:14 "And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt you say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you."
Christ called Himself "I Am." What sleight of hand can we use to make this say
something else?
His answer: No, Jesus had said earlier that he was the Son of God, and the Light
from God, not that he was the "I AM" of the O.T. That was his Father. Notice
that he did not say "Before Abraham was, I was." Jesus was "before Abraham"
in the resurrection, and Abraham still has to be "born from the dead." Jesus did
not reference himself as the "I AM" as I explained above. It was Jesus' father
who said "I am that I am, as Acts 3:13 proves. I do not need to use "sleight of
Matt 21:13 And said to them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of
prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Comment: Whose house was it... The Father's house or Christ's? Seems presumptuous
of Christ to say it that way if it is the Father's House He was referring to...
Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, you Jesus of Nazareth?
art you come to destroy us? I know you who you art, the Holy One of God.
Acts 2:27 Because you wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt you suffer
thine Holy One to see corruption
Acts 3:14 But youdenied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be
granted to you;

Comments: Holy One... referenced in 31 places throughout the O.T. and 21 places in
the New.
Holy One refers to God in the Old Testament, and to Christ directly in Psalms 16:10,
and to Christ also in the NT. Why would they both be called by this "formal name?"
Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Comment: Besides me there is no God... Elohiym - plural. There is no other Elohiym
or God family/beings.
Isa 48:12 Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also
am the last.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand
upon me, saying to me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 2:8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things says the first
and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Comment: God in the Old Testament calls Himself, "The First and the Last." Christ
Himself calls Himself, "The First and the Last." Is this a slip of the tongue?
Mistranslation? Is Christ, again assuming to take on Himself something the Father
1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from
Comments: Lord FROM Heaven...
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of
a woman, made under the law,
Comments: sent forth His son... from where? How do you send forth someone who
doesn't exist as yet?
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Comments: God our savior... and God and our savior... both in context, showing the
context is the same person, Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you
in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have
obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our
Saviour Jesus Christ:
The expression "God and our savior Jesus Christ" follows the same Greek
grammatical construction used to express the deity of the Father in...
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil
world, according to the will of God and our Father:
1 Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and
patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Phil 4:20 Now to God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Comment: Are we talking about two distinct persons here... God, and the Father? The
Greek in these scriptures is akin to a statement such as, "My wife and best friend."
This is called hendiadies, meaning "one by two." An expression of an idea by two
nouns rather than a noun and an adjunct. Both refer to each other equally, but not
meaning two different persons.
His answer: No, it refers to the Father and the Son! This is just language
confusion in the way people speak and translated in 1611. Read other
translations also. Other translations read "Our God and Father," one person.

You might like to know that the New Age (modern) translations leave out reference to
(deny) the Deity of Christ over 100 times and even add words to Jude :15 to give the
impression that Jesus is NOT God. Are you comfortable with that?
His answer: Yes! They are more correct, in my opinion. But, you must decide for
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like to his
brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to
God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Comments: He didn't take ON Him the nature of angels... sounds like more choice and
someone who is aware... Behooved Him to be made like to His Brethren... It would
do nothing to Him prior to His own creation. If He had no consciousness prior to His
human birth, this statement is meaningless.
His answer: Or, it is misunderstood because of translational difficulties. If he was
"made like his brethren," then he was human, because his brethren are human.
Were there pre-human brethren? Was Jesus reincarnated, or born as the Son of
Heb 6:20 wither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for
ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met
Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also
Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness,
and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without
mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but
made like to the Son of God; abides a priest continually.
Comment: Who could possible fit this description except God? Made like the Son of
God? Seems as though the Plan of Salvation is being referenced here, and Jesus
Christ's role.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering
you wouldest not, but a body hast you prepared me:
Comments: The Father "prepared" a body for Christ (the word?)... How do you
prepare a body for someone who doesn't exist, and have that person prophetically
speak about having a body prepared for them?

Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says, your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of
righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.
Comment: The Father speaking to the Son, calling Him God...
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal
with God.
Comment: A scripture from John plainly stating that John understood Christ to be
Heb 1: Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,
and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our
sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles,
believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Comment: God... manifest in the flesh. Does it become any more clear? God (the
Word) manifested in the flesh...
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was
in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the
glory that should follow.
1 John 1:2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and
shew to you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested (in the
flesh) to us;
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or
powers:all things were created by him, and for him:
Luke 10:18 And he said to them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Comment: Who is speaking here, the Father who would have been the only one to see
it since Christ hadn't even been "created" as yet, or Christ, who was speaking this of

His answer: Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven in a vision, and it is recorded in the
book of Revelation.
There is no evidence to conclude that Christ witnessed Satan's fall in a vision.
And, for an Old Testament scripture which is very difficult to twist to mean one
Ps 110:1 The LORD said to my (David's) Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make
Your enemies Your footstool."
LORD = OT:3068 Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); from OT:1961; (the) self-Existent or
Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: KJV - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare
OT:3050, OT:3069.
Lord = OT:113 'adown (aw-done'); or (shortened) 'adon (aw-done'); from an unused
root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine): KJV - lord,
master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".
Notice the ALL CAPITAL, first "LORD," compared with the Capital "L" and lower
case "ord" in the second "Lord?" While the "Lord" word can be used of humans, the
scripture referencing David's "Lord" cannot be referring to a human because NO
human will sit at the right had of the Father but Christ. Who else could be construed to
be David's "Lord?" This is clear proof that two distinct beings are being discussed
here, with the Father, the Ancient of days, speaking to Christ, the "Word," also
Lord/God. David's "Lord" was Christ, the Word.
Is this referenced again, and whom is it speaking about, specifically?
Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying,
"What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The
Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him
'Lord,' saying: 44'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your
enemies Your footstool "'? 45 If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" 46
And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare
question Him anymore.
Mark 12:35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, "How is it
that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by
the Holy Spirit: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your
enemies Your footstool ."' 37 Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how is He
then his Son?"

Acts 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The
LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your
footstool ."' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has
made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I
make Your enemies Your footstool "?
The above N.T. scriptures clearly refer to Christ, the Son of God, who pre-existed His
human birth, and was very active in O.T. times.

These are not all the scriptures that reference Christ and His pre-existence, but the
point should be clearly made... Christ DID pre-exist His incarnation as human. If you
consider the few answers he gave that I felt were worth quoting, you will see that this
is a stretch of scriptures and human reasoning on the subject of Christ.
See also "Was Jesus Christ God in the Flesh?".