Barrie Gellis NYC Seth Presentation 11/22/09

HOW DEEPLY EMBEDDED IN THE SETH MATERIAL, IF AT ALL

IS THE CONCEPT OF NOT HURTING AND ACTUALLY HELPING OTHERS?

Thank you all for coming here.

Im not sure
How to introduce myselfbut I will try:
My name is Barrie Gellis
And I am one of the original NY Boys from Seth Class.
I attended class for about a year back in 1972-1973.
I have some online Yahoo Seth boards,
The oldest ongoing one called
Barries Seth Message Board
is almost nine years old;
I also hosted an online Seth chat
For about ten years
And I just started a Facebook Seth page.
I am also a poet.
In Sue Watkins book on Seth class, Conversations With Seth.
You can find some of my poems
And so my real name is in the index of that book.
in my first class,
Seth referred to me as our poet
And I just thought he was being polite.
I didnt realize that Seth wasnt into manners in that way
And thus I never asked him further about it.
But it was nice to heareven IF he was just being polite...
To date, I have written more than 4,000 poems, published about 80 in magazines
And have put together 100 of them in a book called Outside Is A Secret Key
Some of which are available on the tables outside.
Today, Im here to ask the question
And to answer it, as far as my beliefs go:
How deeply embedded in the Seth material, if at all,
are the concepts of NOT HURTING AND ACTUALLY HELPING OTHERS?
I have discovered
That various Seth concepts will tie in to this discussion:
These Seth concepts are as follows:
1. love is the basis of existence,
2. people are innately good, loving and compassionate
3. violations and natural guilt are instincts we embedded in ourselves
to prevent us from repeating harmful acts
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4. we are here to learn that we create our own realityvia our thoughts, beliefs, expectations and emotions
5. and as we do so we are not to hurt others
6. and as we do so we are to HELP others
7. the ends do not justify the means
and 8. violence is never justified even in the pursuit of your ideals or in self-defense
First, Id like to state what I hope will always be
one major ground rule
That I believe is key to everything,
And it is this:
In any discussion or presentation:
In the end, TRUST yourselves first and foremost over everyone else
Listen to what others say, listen to what I say, listen to what Seth says-And THEN TRUST and listen to your SELF as you assess it all
And hold onto whatever rings true deep down inside YOU,
And throw away or put on holdeverything else.
Allow me to add one more thing:
Be brave in questioning yourself
Be brave in delving within.
Be prepared to find answers and new questions
You never dreamed of
Or that may even scare you.
Back to todays presentation:
what MOTIVATED MY quest to discover
How deeply embedded in the Seth material
If at all-are the concepts of
NOT HURTING AND ACTUALLY HELPING OTHERS?

Here is the answer:

I started to encounter Seth readers
Who used the Seth material to explain such beliefs as these:
1. You cant help others nor should you try.
For example, starving people:
If you try to help them you must first create their starvation,
And so you are actually hurting them.
If you dont want starvation in your world,
Then dont focus on it
And by talking about it you are focusing on it.
Another one was that it is OK to murder because there is no death
And therefore a murder is equal to a kiss.
Another one:
We are all God therefore being human is an illusion
And therefore, you should not even try to talk a rapist out of raping
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Or a killer out of killing

Even if you had the SAFE chance to do so,
Because you would be blaming and interfering with All-That-Is
Because the rapist and the killer are also faces of God...
And if you tried to prevent the rape or murder
you would be blaming and judging God
And you also would be interfering with the choices
Of the people who chose to be raped and killed...
Which would also be blaming and judging
Because they, too, are faces of God.
Having my own personal beliefs
As well as having been to Seth class
And having talked to all my friends during and after Seth class
And having read the books myself,
The class transcripts, too,
I decided that I had never heard such crazy ideas,
That is crazy to me--ESPECIALLY
Spoken as extensions of the Seth material
I realized that, to me at least, something was very wrong in Sethville...
There were SOME TRUTHS which grew like vines
Upon these crazy ideas
Binding them together
But yet not making the application of these concepts, to me,
Valid or true reflections of the Seth material.
The truths found in these concepts were F2 truths, being superimposed onto F1.
For those who dont know or remember those terms,
Briefly, F2, or framework 2, is the nonphysical realm.
Like the dream state or out-of-body state,
And F1, or Framework 1, is our every day waking
Physical reality
As I said, to me, I saw SOME F2 truths being superimposed onto F1
And this was not the best thing to do...
And then I found this Seth quote
To support my contention:
Session 759: YOU CANNOT...INSIST THAT THE LAWS OF YOUR VASTER EXISTENCE, AS YOU
DISCOVER THEM, SUPERSEDE THE PHYSICAL CONDITIONS OF KNOWN LIFE -- FOR THEN
NO FACTS WOULD APPLY... You will expect to live forever in the same physical body, or think that you
can levitate with your body at will. You can indeed levitate, but not with your physical body, practically
speaking in operational terms. You accepted a body, and THAT body will die. It HAS limitations, but
these also serve to highlight certain kinds of experience...The 'true FACTS' are that you exist IN this life
and OUTSIDE it simultaneously. You are 'between lives' and 'in lives' at once...Your life is a dreaming
experience to other portions of your greater reality which focus elsewhere...Existence has a physical
version." [END QUOTE]
So, Seth advises us not to let the F2 truths supersede the basic F1 realities
But this was not enough, for me,
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For I wanted to explore DIRECTLY the issues of helping others or not.

I knew, my experiences and beliefs told me,
That helping others was a crucial part of the Seth material,
But I had to find proof in the material itself
To see if, indeed, not hurting and actually helping others

WAS deeply embedded in the material,

Or not.
So, I began a journey of discovery, with THAT as my mission
And I NOW report to you the results
As I found them
And for you do with it as you please:
I will now discuss what I discovered, with Seth quotes,
Concerning the eight concepts listed earlier
That lay the foundation for, and prove and explain,
At least to my satisfaction,
That helping and not hurting others IS, indeed,
Deeply imbedded in the Seth material:

BEGIN SETH QUOTES TO FIT EIGHT CONCEPTS

First, the foundation of reality itself
makes not hurting, but rather helping others
Part of the human equation:
As humans, we ARE part of the universe, part of All-That-Is,
And we are MADE of the stuff and consciousness of existence.
And the first Seth concept, therefore,
That I wish to relate to you is this:

1. love is the basis of existence,

SETH (Class April 13, 1971): All consciousness of whatever extent feels love though it may not know the
verbal designationfor (love) is the basis of all existence.
SETH (SESSION 792): "Basically, love and creativity are synonymous. Love exists without an object. It is
the impetus by which all being becomes manifest."
SETH (Session 769): Each species is involved in a cooperative venture, upon which ultimately all
earthly existence restsThis cooperation that I speak of is based on love, and that LOVE has a biolgoical
as well as a spiritual basisYour beliefs, for example, cause you to deny the existence of emotions in
animals, and any instances of love among them are assigned to 'blind' instinctThe love and cooperation
that forms the basis of ALL life...shows itself in many ways. [END QUOTE]
And I contend that TWO of the ways that love and cooperation show themselves
are found in the actions of BOTH not hurting and also of HELPING others.

Seth goes on to say in:

(Session 770): `'Love is a biological necessity, a force operating to one degree or another in all biological
life. Without love there is no physical commitment to life--no psychic hold.' [END QUOTE]
This is a very powerful statement.
Not only is love a biological necessity
but without love there is no physical commitment to life, no psychic hold.
This means, to me, that without love you would not even remain physical
And WHEN physical we are motivated to act in harmony
With the love that weaves thru us.
SETH (Class April 13, 1971): Love...is the basis for any reality that ANY consciousness knows. If it
would not be for love, then I would not be here and if it were not for love, YOU would not have the planet
that you know. [END QUOTE]
So, love is the basis of existence, according to Seth.
This explains why the next Seth concept is true and comes into play,
And that is:

2. people are innately good, loving and compassionate

SETH Again From (Seth Class April 13, 1971): The innate love within you, that you are often too
embarrassed to expressforms the planet that you know, the physical bodies that you inhabit, the
seasons and the reality in which you presently have your existence.
Seth (Session 862): You were born with an in-built recognition of your own goodness. You were born
with an inner recognition of your rightness in the universeThese assumptions are the basis of what I
call natural law. You are born loving. You are born compassionateThose attributes also belong to
natural law.
SETH (Session 673): "The natural force of love is everywhere within you, and the normal methods of
communication are always meant to bring you in greater contact with your fellow creatures." [END
QUOTE]
And I contend that the innate qualities of love, compassion, and goodness
Dictate or encourage behaviors and actions that are in HARMONY
With these innate qualities
which Seth says are parts of Natural Law
It is because it is not natural to act out of harmony with our love, compassion and goodness
That we created for ourselves what Seth calls
Violations and natural guilt
Which are my next Seth concepts:

3. violations and natural guilt are instincts embedded in usto prevent

us from repeating harmful acts

Briefly, we violate our own nature, our own innate qualities of love, compassion and goodness when we harm
others. Thus, according to Seth, we created an instinct, an inner tugging, that occurs in the moment of reflection
before we repeat a harmful action, that prompts us not to harm again
Seth calls this inner tugging, natural guilt.
And I contend that if it was simply OK to hurt others
We would not even NEED to create this concept and instinct
Of natural guilt and violations in order to prevent us from hurting others in the first place.
Seth (Session 635): Natural guilt...arose hand in hand with mankinds excursion into the experience of
past, present and future. Natural guilt was meant as a preventive measure...
Any previous acts that had aroused feelings of natural guilt were to be avoided in the future. It does not
carry with it any built-in connection with punishment as you think of it...Any violation against nature
would bring about a feeling of guilt so that when a like-situation was encountered in the future, man
would, in that moment of reflection, NOT repeat the same action...
This is, of course, a learning process, natural within the time system that the species adopted...Conscious
killing beyond the needs of sustenance is a violation....
Thou shalt not violate against nature, life, or the earth. In your terms, creaturehood, while striving for
survival and longing for life, while abundant and rambunctious, is not inherently gluttonous. It follows
the unconscious order that is within it...
Thou shalt not violate. So the principle applies to both life and death--Seth (Session 634): "Guilt is the other side of compassion...If you shed the distorted
concepts of unnatural guilt and accepted the wise ancient wisdom of
natural guilt instead, there would be no wars. You would not kill
each other mindlessly
"...Natural guilt, then, is the species' manifestation of the
animals unconscious corporal sense of justice and integrity. It
means: Thou shalt not kill more than is needed for thy physical
sustenance. Period. It has nothing to do with adultery or with sex.
It does contain innate issues that apply to human beings that would
have NO MEANING for other animals in the framework of THEIR
experience.
"Strictly, speaking, the translations from biological language to our
own is as given in this session; but the finer discrimination reads
thusly: thou shalt not violate... An outright lie may or may not be a violation.
A sex act may or may not be a violation.
A scientific expedition may or may not be a violation.
Not going to church on Sunday is not a violation.
Having normal aggressive thoughts is not a violation.
Doing violence to your body, or another's is a violation.
Doing violence to the spirit of another IS a violation...
Killing another human being is a violation.
Killing while protecting your own body from death
at the hands of another through IMMEDIATE contact IS a violation.
Whether or not any justification seems apparent, the violation exists." [END QUOTE]
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If all of the above is found in the Seth material,

And it is,
Then it follows, to me,
that the ramifications of these concepts
Would also be found in and very significant to the Seth material
Yet, almost always, in Seth discussions
ONLY the concept of YOU CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY
Is spoken about as the main Seth concept-And IT IS a very important key Seth concept
But it is not the ONLY very important key Seth concept
Which I will now attempt to show you.
First, to very briefly elaborate on the importance of creating our own reality,
It IS true that Seth has often said that

we are here to learn that we create our own realityvia our thoughts,
beliefs, expectations and emotions
and that is why that is the 4th concept is included on my list
But I will now show you,
That according to Seth
This is NOT the ONLY THING we made ourselves physical to learn,
For Seth has also said,
That as we create our own reality
We are to not to hurt others but rather help others...
And THESE are lessons that ALSO must be learned
Before we move on to other realities-All of which leads into the 5th and 6th concepts I will speak about:

5. as we create reality we are not to hurt others

Seth (Class, 6-18-74): "When you are truly and completely yourselves, you will not hurt others. You will
be individual and yourself, and being TRULY individual will mean that there is no NEED to hurt
another."
Seth (Session 550): The problem of war will sooner or later teach you that when you kill another man,
basically you will end up killing yourself...The crisis is a kind of THERAPY, however. It is a teaching
method that you have set up for yourselves because you NEED it. And you need it NOW, BEFORE your
species embarks upon journeys to other physical realities. You must learn your lessons NOW in your own
backyard before you travel to other worlds. So you have brought this upon yourself for that purpose and
you will learn" [END QUOTE]
This next quote is actually a Seth II quote:
From Session 446: You are being allowed freedom within limits. The human race is a state through
which various forms of consciousness travel. The ideals keep the race pointed in beneficial directions.
Thoughts and emotions form the basic. You learn by seeing these turn into physical reality. You may be
killed by what you have created. If so, the lesson is DOUBLY learned. Before you can be allowed into
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systems of reality that are more extensive and open, you must FIRST learn to handle energy, and see,
through physical materializations, the CONCRETE RESULT of thought and emotion. As a child forms
mud pies from dirt, so YOU FORM your civilization out of thoughts and emotions, and THEN see what
you have created, and you must deal with it ON ITS TERMS---In other systems, energy is more directly
felt, more extensive. Consciousness has much more freedom in its utilization. The lessons must be
properly learned before such responsibilityWhen you leave the physical system after reincarnation, you
have learned the lessons, and you are literally no longer a member of the human race in those terms, for
you elect to leave it In more advanced systems, thoughts and emotions are AUTOMATICALLY and
IMMEDIATELY translated into action, into whatever approximation of matter THERE exists.
Therefore, the lessons must be taught and learned well. [END QUOTE]
To me, these quotes just emphasized
The importance of not harming others
For that helps to prepare us for when we move on to other
More extensive systems of reality.
And also when we harm others, we harm ourselves.
They also emphasize the importance
of dealing with physical reality, or F1, ON ITS TERMS
And NOT on F2 terms
NOT to superimpose F2 assumptions directly onto F1
But rather, as Seth just said,
You MUST deal with F1 on ITS TERMS.
And IN F1s terms, for example, death is real,
And so is suffering and vulnerability.
Seth (Session 759): Existence has a physical version. In THAT framework you are born and die, and in a
definite sequence. Death is a physical reality. It is real, however, ONLY in physical terms. [END
QUOTE]
And not only is death real in F1 terms, but exactly 37 years ago yesterday, Seth said the following:
In a class from Nov. 21, 1972in a discussion about war, and killing people in war,
Seth said: Now in greater terms, you know quite well that you cannot annihilate a consciousness. And all
of those who die in war, know well that they will die in war ahead of time. But still, in physical terms, all
of that must be worked out, for THE VERY POINT OF PHYSICAL EXISTENCE is that you realize that
your thoughts become matter while you are here, AND MATTER CAN BE VULNERABLE. And so
through direct experience you learn what happens when you let thoughts and feelings of aggression have
FULL play. [END QUOTE]
To me, these comments express MAJOR keys of the Seth material. Seth is telling us, in short that the VERY
POINTS OF PHYSICAL EXISTENCE are three-fold:
1. Thoughts become matter, Matter being the substance of physical realityour physical bodies, as well as
the other physical objects.
2. Matter can be vulnerable, meaning that physical matter can be hurt and destroyed, specifically the
human bodyespecially in the quote just given concerning war. Seth doesnt equivocate because matter
is an illusion from the F2 perspective. That doesnt supersede that matter IS vulnerable in F1.
3. Through our physical experience, on ITS TERMS, we are here to learn what can happen if we allow
ourselves to do various things that hurt othersin other words--when we let thoughts and feelings of
aggression have full play.
And the vulnerability of matter, we will soon see,
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IS a key quality of physical reality

AND physical reality ITSELF is a key quality.
Heres Seth (Session 498): "Your ego is now focused within this realityit is from this system that the
greatest potentials emerge; for having dealt with it, consciousness undergoes one of the severest tests in
learning to handle its own energy. [PAUSE QUOTE]
Me Again:
I contend that
We would not undergo ANY TEST AT ALL
If it were simply valid to just say that
Hurting others doesnt matter or exist because physical reality is an illusion
And there really is no death, and we are all faces of God.
Seth now continues, talking about the SIGNIFICANCE of the vulnerability of matter:
(Session 498): "The horror and the results of mismanagement, and the VULNERABILITY; are the
teaching methods that each consciousness has accepted before entering your system. THERE IS NO WAY
OUT BUT TO LEARN OR TO RUIN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. In no other field of reality are the terms
so drastic. For THIS reason the inner self withholds much of its knowledge. There must be NO leaning
upon the very basic fact that behind and within the system there is relief. You MUST believe in the
physical reality and accept the VULNERABILITY. [PAUSE QUOTE]
Seth has just directly addressed the argument
Made by some Seth readers that BECAUSE, ultimately,
There IS relief and there is no death
That THEREFORE harming others is OK...
For Seth THEN added that you still
MUST believe in the physical reality and accept.
NOT reject the VULNERABILITY.
Seth Continues (Session 498): "Now, from your system spring some of the most advanced of all identities.
They go on and learn from other realities, granted, but YOURS is the hardest to manage, and those who
accept it go off into a certain line of development where the potentials are beyond anything of which you
can presently conceive. [END QUOTE]
Next is the closest I could find
Of Seth addressing the current new-age fad,
As far as Im concerned
About abundance and helping others
That isif you take care of yourselfyou help others,
And that is how you deal with those who are sufferingthats The Secret.
You attract your wealth.
You attract you want.
And let others do the same.

Seth (Class, 6-11-74): "You cannot separate yourselves from others or from your world. Indeed, neither
can you immerse your individuality, as you know, in others. But by being yourself COMPLETELY, you
are automatically doing what you yourself want to do fulfilling the purpose that is your own, and
joining with others of like purpose. And you become, therefore, a force of nature, and in trusting that
force that is yourself, you flow naturally into those areas of your own interest and the interests of others.
You are a brotherhood...
Rich Responded: "So practically speaking, if I have a desire for a beautiful house, pretty clothes, a
beautiful car, etc., and I fulfill that desire, then practically speaking, I am in some way acting to actually
alleviate a future situation such as exists in India with starving people. Right?"
Seth Responds: Even I have trouble following that reasoning. [PAUSE QUOTE]
Here, Richard has made the point or expressed the belief that many new-agers of today have made:
That simply by taking care of your own needs & desires & using your abundance to buy cars & houses
you are somehow helping those in need or who are starving around the world.
And Seth says, Even I have trouble following that reasoning!
Rich then tried to explain himself:

Rich Continues: "Well, by being spontaneous, whenever my spontaneity--if I'm being spontaneous, then
naturally I am helping the world of which I am part, automatically."
Seth Responds: You are, indeed!
Rich Continues: "All right, so if my spontaneity leads me to -- even though there are people starving in
India and money could be sent there to feed them -- if my spontaneity truly leads me more to buying a
beautiful house, a beautiful car..."
Seth Interrupts: "If you allow your spontaneity its own freedom, then you can quite happily have
whatever you want. But spontaneity will also lead you to thoughts of love for others. It will lead you to
realize that you cannot plunder your planet, and it will lead you to realize that as long as one person is
starving then YOU are starving in ways that YOU are too ignorant to recognize." [END QUOTE]
Seth, to me, is CLEARLY saying that you dont help those in need simply by buying things for yourself or by
finding excuses or philosophies to ignore them, or not to help:
Seth (Session 550): "You cannot say, 'The poor are poor simply
because they chose poverty and therefore there is no need for me to
help them.' This attitude can easily draw poverty to you in the next
experience."
Seth (Class 6-11-74): There IS abundance. There is ALSO the fact that you dwell on a physical planet,
with a sense of love and identification. Your idea of survival would not include annihilating other species
so that you could live. You would understand that ALL of you SHARE this reality, and that all of you are
bound together in a gestalt of creativity. [END QUOTE]
And in book one of the personal sessions, Seth said:
"...There is a difference between gluttony and abundance." [END QUOTE]
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I contend that allowing people to suffer,

That is, doing NOTHING when you can just as easily do SOMETHING
That would be of help in SOME way
IS hurting others
It continues and enables their suffering
When you could just as easily have helped to alleviate or curtail it...in some matter...
And this leads us to our next Seth concept:
Next, according to Seth, we are also here to learn or remember
That in the process of reality creation
We are to, number six,
Not only NOT harm others...
But actually HELP others.

6. and as we create our reality we are to help others

Seth (June 9, 1984, from Way To Health):"Some people might say, I have a right to die,
when they are arguing the case for suicide. And while this is true, it is
also true that the people on your PLANET need every bit of HELP and
encouragement they can get from each person alive. In a certain sense, the
energy of each individual DOES keep the world going, and to commit suicide is
to refuse a basic, cooperative venture." [END QUOTE]
Seth next suggests some simple ways that you can help. Simple actions you can take.
And there is no need for self-sacrifice.
There is no need for you to suffer
In the process of helping others:
SETH (Session 850): There is nothing more stimulating, more worthy of actualization, than the desire
to change the world for the better. That is indeed each person's mission (intently). You BEGIN by
working in that area of activity that is your own unique one, with your own life and activities. You
BEGIN in the corner of an office, or on the assembly line, or in the advertising agency, or in the kitchen.
You BEGIN where you AREWhen you fulfill your own abilities, when you express your personal
idealism through ACTING IT OUT TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY IN YOUR DAILY LIFE, then
you *are* changing the world for the better.
Seth (Session 64): "...WHEN IT IS POSSIBLE IT IS NOT ONLY WISE BUT
ADVANTAGEOUS TO HELP ANY LIVING CREATURE, REGARDLESS OF ITS STATURE
IN YOUR SCHEME OF THINGS...
Seth (Class, 8-18-70): "YOU ARE NOW DWELLING IN PHYSICAL REALITY.
IT BEHOOVES YOU TO HELP OTHERS. When you take from others, you take
from yourselves. When you give to others, you give to yourselves." [END QUOTE]
to me, taking from others
implies greed, gluttony, and a willingness to keep getting more for yourself,
if you KNOW that it hurts others in the process
that it will be at the expense of what others may need...
and giving to others to me
implies helping others, sharing what you can,
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not taking an over-abundance of what you need at the expense of others, in some way,
and as Seth will say in the next quote,
We have a natural bent for taking care of others.
Seth (Session 426): "The purpose is, quite simply, BEING, as opposed
to NOT being. I am telling you what I know, and there is much I do
not know. I KNOW THAT HELP MUST BE GIVEN, ONE TO THE OTHER,
AND THAT EXTENSION AND EXPANSION ARE AIDS TO BEING."
Seth (Session 897): "Good intent is apparent within your world.
It is obvious in the cooperative ventures that unite say, the
mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms, the relationship of bee to
flower. And your beliefs to the contrary, YOU HAVE CLOSED YOUR MINDS
TO MAN'S COOPERATIVE NATURE, TO HIS INNATE DESIRE FOR FELLOWSHIP, HIS
NATURAL BENT FOR TAKING CARE OF OTHERS, AND FOR ALTRUISTIC BEHAVIOR." [END
QUOTE]
By the way, I looked up the word altruistic and it means:
Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.
So, Seth is directly saying that humans have a NATURAL BENT
To have an unselfish concern for the welfare of others.
SETH (Session 697): "The race suffers when any of its members die of
starvation or disease, even as a whole plant suffers if a group of
its leaves are 'unhappy'. In the same way all members of the species
are benefited by the happiness, health, and fulfillment of those
individuals who compose it."
Seth (Class, 12-10-74): "AS YOU HELP OTHERS SO WILL YOU ALSO BE
HELPING YOURSELF, and as you carry on dialogues with other people so
are you carrying on dialogues with yourselves and doing very well -all of you."
Seth (Session 770): "You are born knowing that you possess a unique,
intimate sense of being that is ITSELF, AND THAT SEEKS ITS OWN
FULFILLMENT, AND THE FULFILLMENT OF OTHERS. You are born seeking the
actualization of the ideal. You are born seeking to add value to the
quality of life, to add characteristics, energies, abilities to a
life that only you can individually contribute to the world, and to
attain a state of Being that is uniquely yours, while adding to the
value fulfillment of the world. All of these qualities and attributes
are given you by natural law." [END QUOTE]
In other words, seeking the fulfillment of others...is a quality given to us by natural law.
To me, this seems a pretty significant part of being human, of the physical experience
And of the Seth material.
Finally, there are two more concepts that Seth mentions
That tie directly into not hurting others,
And not using the Seth material to neglect helping others:
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Seth concept number 7:

the ends do not justify the means

First, I would like to note that Seth NEVER said anywhere in his vast material
Anything like: The ends always or sometimes justify the means
because there is really no death and everyone is the face of God.
Seth (Class, 3-27-73): "I am not condemning the feelings that give rise to religions. I am telling you that
the organizations destroy the intuitions because again, each revelation is a reality. It is not the only
reality, but organizations put up fences about the reality and say, You follow these rules. These are right.
And they are so convinced of the nature of their truth, that they will kill to withhold it, and that is
WRONG! THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS, and the creatures have a greater sanity than
this, and there is a wisdom and a religion in their FLESH that is unknown to your philosophies, and alien
to them and mud is holier than philosophies that teach killing and death to uphold truth! A fly is holier
than a Pope who causes death, or than a guru who whips you across your shoulder so that you can
understand your guilt. and, I speak in righteous anger on behalf of ALL creatures, because I have been a
creature many times." [END QUOTE]
I would add to this that mud is also holier than any philosophy
That teaches you to ignore or enable the killing and suffering of others
because we are all faces of God and because there is no death. .
And I believe Seth addresses this is the next quote
When he talks about NOT ACCEPTING violence.
Seth (Class, 1-16-73): Any time that you commit a violence, or ACCEPT VIOLENCE in what you think
of as the defense of good, you are doing what was done in that time (the time of the Nazis), and bear that in
your heart. THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS in your reality. And when you are teaching
others, hold that in your heart. It is your one and only defense against what happened in Hitlers time,
and that answer is within you. And whats more, you know it!
Seth (Session 873 ): THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. If you learn that lesson, then your
good intent will allow you to act effectively and creatively in your private experience, and in your
relationships with others.
Seth (Class, 4-22-69): I have told you before, however, that there is never any justification for violence.
There is never any justification for threats. It makes no difference whether or not you THINK THAT
THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT.
The means create the end.
And if the means are violent, the ends are violent.
None of you none of you...solidly understands what I am trying to tell you. I hope you shall some
day. [END QUOTE]
And finally, to put a nail in the coffin, as far as Im concerned,
About how Seths concepts do NOT justify the belief that it is OK to harm others
Or ENABLE or NEGLECT the suffering of others
For it is only an illusion.
Lets go to the last concept of my presentation--concept number 8:
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violence is never justified even in the pursuit of your ideals or in selfdefense

First, I would like to note that Seth NEVER said anywhere in his vast material
Anything like:
Violence is always or sometimes justified
because there is no death, no one is really harmed, and we all the face of God.
Seth (Class, 6-18-74):
Class Member: "To what extent, when you are doing what you believe is RIGHT for you, and you are
conscious of hurting another individual, do you -- at what point -- violate that other persons reality?"
Seth Responds: "Now, first of all ... when you are being yourself, truly, and completely, you cannot hurt
anyone else. You can only do yourself good, and others, also.
"In YOUR frame of reference as you learn to be yourself truly and completely, there may indeed be
episodes in which you need further experience, but in greater terms, you cannot hurt another unless that
other acquiesces. That is NOT MEANT in any way as a justification, in that framework, for violence.
There are often, however, misunderstandings and you cannot in greater terms within your framework,
justify violence of any kind by saying, 'well, the other person wanted it -- they asked for it!'"
"It is true, again, that violence cannot be done to another, without that person's consent. The beliefs,
however, are extremely important. But when you are completely and fully being yourself, you cannot hurt
another for it is not in your nature to do so...
"When you are truly and completely yourselves, you will not hurt others. You will be individual and
yourself, and being TRULY individual will mean that there is no need to hurt another." [END QUOTE]
And I contend that IF you ignore or willfully do nothing
When YOU CAN JUST AS EASILY DO SOMETHINGto help
Such as advocate the concept of help, vote for candidates who support help,
Take less for yourself when you really dont need more
In order to leave more for others who do need whatever it is,
Give money when you can, and/or
Volunteer time and so forth.
That you then ARE hurting others
Because you hurt others by enabling the hurting of others
WHEN you can easily do something to alleviate, stop or lessen the hurting
And IF you ARE hurting others
Then, when you behave in these manners
You are therefore, NOT being truly yourself,
You are not being truly spontaneous.
Seth (Class, 1-21-69): There will never be a justification for killing or violence.
Since there is no death, in your terms, there is no murder. We will have some long sessions dealing with
this matter, but I tell you all now no good will come of violence. The gains that seem to be won will end
in the violence of those who bring them about. The violence will be reborn in them. It will be part of their
reality, and others will turn against them. This applies to any people at any time.
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If there is one message I would give to you all, it is that there is no justification for killing there is no
justification for hatred there is no justification for violence. It may occur, but those who indulge in
violence are themselves changed, and the purity of their purpose adulterated. They are no longer the
selves that they were...
As long as one person commits violence for the sake of peace you will have war. Unfortunately, in the
condition in which your world finds itself, it is extremely difficult to imagine that all the young men in all
of the countries at the same time will refuse to go to war. And so you must work out the violence that
violence has wrought.
Not in your physical time, but within the next hundred years, that time may come... (phrase omitted)...
but when it comes, and if it comes soon it will come as a miracle. For it will come when every man realizes
that killing is wrong, and when every young man in every country refuses to go to war, and when he
refuses to curse any man or any flower. You do not defend any idea with violence. With violence you kill
an idea. [END QUOTE]
And I contend that you do not DEFEND any idea
By enabling violence or suffering
Or turning your back on its existence.
And, found at the close of the book:
The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events
Seth (Session 850): "Idealism presupposes 'the good' as opposed to 'the bad,' so how can the pursuit of
the 'the good' often lead to the expression of 'the bad?' For THAT, we will have to look further...There is
one Christian commandment that can be used as a yardstick...'Thou shalt not kill.' That is clear
enough...'Thou shalt not kill' says you shall not kill your neighbor no matter how you feel about him.
"So let us say in a new commandment:
'Thou shalt not kill even in the pursuit of your ideals.' [END QUOTE]
Let me say, in closing,
That whatever you find in the Seth material
that seems to contradict what Ive said today,
or what Seth himself says elsewhere:
Dont just accept one side OR the other side
But try to reconcile the seeming contradictions
For I claim there are no contradictions
But only that which SEEMS to be contradictions
Which exist, as I stated as earlier,
Because of allowing our F2 awareness
To supersede the realities of F1.
BOTH perspective are true, and neither negates the other.
Let me repeat that quote:
Session 759: " YOU CANNOT...INSIST THAT THE LAWS OF YOUR VASTER EXISTENCE, AS YOU
DISCOVER THEM, SUPERSEDE THE PHYSICAL CONDITIONS OF KNOWN LIFE -- FOR THEN
NO FACTS WOULD APPLY...You will expect to live forever in the same physical body, or think that you
can levitate with your body at will. You can indeed levitate, but not with your physical body, practically
speaking in operational terms. You accepted a body, and that body will die. It has limitations, but THESE
also serve to highlight certain kinds of experience... Existence has a physical version." [END QUOTE]
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And let me add the Doctrine of Both

That unites these seeming contradictions:
BOTH sides are true
There actually are NO contradictions
And neither side should supersede or negate the other;
For there is a balance between the two frameworks
That keeps physical reality and our navigating within it
Just the way we have chosen for it to be.
Allow me to close with these two brief Seth quotes:
Seth (Session 72): "...Objects exist, and yet objects in another sense do not exist. There is NO objective
universe, and yet there IS an objective universe. This is not hedging the matter, if you will excuse a pun,
and the subject will take much further study on your parts. You MUST act as if there were an objective
universe. The world, or field, that you presently inhabit is real, definite on your level. The fact that its
reality is ONLY limited TO your level, and does not extend to other fields, MUST NOT TEMPT YOU to
discount it; and yet while you MUST behave in a large manner AS IF your universe were inherently and
basically objective, you must still retain the knowledge that this APPARENT objectivity has great limits,
even practically speaking; and a too-great dependence in a world of objectivity can lead to a psychic
imprisonment which is unnecessary."
Seth (Class 12-2-78): You are alone and not alone. Now, that statement is far more important than it
sounds. For in your aloneness, and in your togetherness, and between the two, THERE is the meaning of
your humanity. And THERE is the meaning of your life and your death. You cannot be completely
together. You cannot be completely alone. Yet always must your existence flit between the two. Between
the desire and the ideal, between the dream and its execution, between your love and your expression of
it. THERE dwells your reality and your meaning, and THEREIN lies the validity of your soul. [END
QUOTE]
And thank you very much.

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