4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

SupportforPBS.orgprovidedby:

What'sthis?

July3,2009
BILLMOYERS:WelcometotheJOURNAL.
NinemonthshavepassedsinceWallStreetcollapsedaroundus,costingmillions
theirhomes,jobsandpensions.You'veseenandheardmanypeopleonthis
broadcastspeaktothecausesofthecrisisanditsfallout.Economists,historians,
journalists,titansofWallStreeteachhasaddressedoneaspectoranotherofthe
relationshipbetweencapitalismanddemocracy.Nowitstimeforsomedifferent
voicesfromadifferentperspective.Timeforthegospeltruth.
CORNELWEST:Whocares?I'mtryingtolivealifeofloveandjusticebeforeIdie.
Idon'tcarewhattheycallthat.
BILLMOYERS:EveryWednesdaynightforthirteenweeksoverthispastspring
andwinter...
MALESTUDENT:Ijustwantedtothankyoupersonally.
BILLMOYERS:ThesestudentsatUnionTheologicalSeminaryhereinNewYork
heardsomeverystrongopinionsfromthreeverycharismaticteachers.

Ourpostsandyourcomments

October15,2012

BillMoyers:WheretoFindMeNow...

"That'sthereallyimportantthingabout
"freespeech"...youcanfigureoutthe
HUGEDAMAGEth..."AnnaD

GARYDORRIEN:Meanwhile,theU.S.isnotfacinguptothecrisisofcapitalism,
becauseouroligarchyhasimmensepoliticalandeconomicpower...soour
recoverybeginsbybailingoutWallStreet...
BILLMOYERS:GaryDorrien'spassioniseconomicdemocracy,it'satthecoreof
hiswritingandteachingatUnionastheReinholdNiebuhrProfessorofSocialEthics,
namedforperhapsthemostinfluentialAmericanTheologianofthelastcentury.A
pastpresidentoftheAmericanTheologicalSociety,Dorrienhaspublishedovera
dozenbooksincludingatrilogyonTHEMAKINGOFAMERICANLIBERALTHEOLOGY,
SOULINSOCIETY,THEWORDASTRUEMYTHandthismostrecent,SOCIAL
ETHICSINTHEMAKING.Dorrien'sbeendubbed"Themostrigoroustheological
historianofourtime."
SERENEJONES:Crisis,whatdoesitmeantoday?Well,one,it'simportanttosee
crisis,aswe'veseentimeandagain,asfullofasmuchthreatasitispromise.
BILLMOYERS:WhenSereneJoneswasinauguratedpresidentofunionlast
November,shebecamethefirstwomantoheadtheseminaryinits172yearold
history.
SERENEJONES:AndI'mexcitedbecausetonightmyfathergetstohearme
teaching.
BILLMOYERS:Ascholarfromafamilyofscholars,JonescametoUnionafter17
yearsonthefacultyofYaleUniversity...
SERENEJONES:Myfatherwasapresident.Igrewupinthehouseofapresident.
BILLMOYERS:Whereshealsoheldappointmentsatthelawschoolandthe
DepartmentofAfricanAmericanstudies.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

1/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

CORNELWEST:Doyoubelieveitourlastclassthough?
BILLMOYERS:Itwastherethatsheoncestudiedunderthisman.
CORNELWEST:Hidearsisterpresident!!
BILLMOYERS:CornelWest.
CORNELWEST:It'snotjustalanguage,orrhetoric.It'sthefundamentalwayof
beingintheworld.Andsowhenwetalkaboutthiseconomiccrisis,it'snotasifwe
needsomenewvision.Yes...
BILLMOYERS:Philosopher,professor,preacher,CornelWestisoneofthemost
prominentpublicprovocateursinAmerica.
CORNELWEST:It'saquestionofwhatkindofhumanbeingyouwanttobegiven
yourmovefromyourmother'swombtothetomb.Whatkindofvirtuesandvalues
willyoutrytoenactinyourlife?Andyousay,oh,brotherWest,thatsoundslike
preachingandhomiletics.No,that'snotpreachingandhomileticsatall.It'sjusta
Christianonfire.
BILLMOYERS:West,whoownsandoperateswhatTheNewYorkTimescalled"A
ferociousmoralvision,"leapedtopublicattentionwithhiscontemporaryclassic,
"RaceMatters."Hislatestis"HopeonaTightrope,"andhe'salsoproducedthree
CDsincludingoneofsociallyconsciousmusiccalled"NeverForget."
CORNELWEST:Loveisreal,sufferingisreal,thekillingisreal.It'sasrealasthis
table.
BILLMOYERS:CornelWestteachesatPrincetonUniversity,comingweeklytoNew
YorkforthisteamteachingcoursewithGaryDorrienand,SereneJones.
SERENEJONES:IhavethisreallyimpassionedsensethatprogressiveChristianity
maywelljustsimplydisappear.
BILLMOYERS:TheytitledtheirjointcourseChristianityandtheU.S.Crisis.Not
unusualforthisseminarywheretoweringtheologianslikeNiebuhrandPaulTillich
oncechallengedstudentstoengagetheworld.AndwheretheyoungGerman
scholarDietrichBonhoefferwasteachingwhenhereturnedhometomartyrdom
tryingtooverthrowAdolphHitler.UnionisAmerica'soldestnondenominational
seminary,knownaroundtheworldforapplyingaprogressiveChristiancritiqueto
politics,economics,andsocialjustice.
BILLMOYERS:WelcometotheJournal.
CORNELWEST:Thankyou
SERENEJONES:Thankyou
GARYDORRIEN:Thankyou
CORNELWEST:It'snicetobehere.
BILLMOYERS:SowhopresumestospeakforChristianity?Imean,JamesDobson
isaChristian.RickWarrenisaChristian.BarackObamaisaChristian.Jeremiah
WrightisaChristian.AllofyouareChristian.Sowhopresumestospeakfor
Christianity?
CORNELWEST:Well,Christianity'salwayshadanumberofdifferentvoices,a
numberofdifferentstreamsandstrands,andIthinkwehadtokeeptrackof
propheticstrandsandkeeptrackofpriestlystrands.There'salwaysbeen
Christianswhoarewelladjustedtogreed,welladjustedtofear,welladjustedto
bigotry.There'salwaysbeenChristianswhoaremaladjustedtogreed,maladjusted
tobigotry,maladjustedtofear.SothequestioniswhatkindofChristian,whichhas
todointheend,withwhatkindofhumanbeingyouchoosetobe.
SERENEJONES:Thereisalwayspeoplewhoarespeakingthrough,forthe
Christianityofthedominantvoice,andtheycanweighinandsupporteverything
that'sgoingoninthepresentcultureandthiswayandthat.Butwhospeaksforthe
Christianitythatstandsonthemarginsofsociety,inplaceswherethereisnovoice,
often?Imean,that'sthereallycriticalquestionofeveryage,becauseit'sthose
voicesbywhichyou'regoingtobeabletomeasurethetruehealthofasociety.
AndwhetherChristianityisspeaking.
BILLMOYERS:DoyouthinkmainstreamAmericaisreallyconcernedaboutthe
marginsofsocietyasyousay?
SERENEJONES:ThisisaninterestingmomentbecauseIthinksuddenly,quitea
numberofAmericansfindthemselvesonamargintheydidn'tevenknowexisted.I
thinkinourlifecourse,it'shardtofindpeoplewhodon'texperiencethemselvesin
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

2/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

momentsofbrokennessandmarginality.Rightnow,thewholesystem'scollapsing
andthemarginlookslikeaverybigspace.AndaChristianitythatspeakstothose
marginscanbeapowerfulpresenceinthat.
BILLMOYERS:GaryDorrien,whatisthecrisis,asyouseeit?
GARYDORRIEN:Thisisasocietythathasstokedandcelebratedgreedvirtually
tothepointofselfdestruction.Andso,wecan'tjustgoonsaying,"Ifwecanjust
patchthisthingupandgetbacktowherewewerethatthingswillbeallright."And
noneofusbelievethat,sowealsohavetotalkaboutwhatwaswrongwiththis
systemtobeginwiththathad,youknow,outcomesthatyoucan'treallyjustify
morally.Andthatdo,infact,leadtothekindofoutcomethatwe'redealingwith
rightnow.
CORNELWEST:Ithinkithastodoalotwiththeprofoundspiritualcrisis,akindof
spiritualmalnutrition,anemptinessofsoul,awholecultureofindifferencethat
says,infact,thatyoucanpossessyoursoul,bymeansofpossessingcommodities
ofthinkingsomehowyoucanconquertheworld,yourworld,andenduplosing
yoursoul.Theseareoldtruths.Theseareoldbiblicaltruths.
YoucanbenonChristian,atheistic,agnosticandstillrecognizethevoracity,the
truthinthoseformulations.
BILLMOYERS:WhatdoyouthinkisthestoryofAmericarightnow?Ifyouhadto
writethatstory,verybriefly,whatisthestorythat'sunfolding,aswetalk?
SERENEJONES:It'sastoryaboutsinandgrace,andit'saboutthebrokennessof
humanbeingsandourcapacitytodeludeourselves,allthewayintothe
internationalcollapseofallthatwestandfor.Togetcaughtupinfictionsthatwe
writeaboutthewaysinwhichweshouldstructureourlivestogether.Weare
seeing,playedoutbeforeus,thatclassicProtestantclaimthatwecanbecaughtup
insinandnotevenknowweareinsin.
BILLMOYERS:Whatdoyoumeanbysin?Imean,that'satheologicaltermthat
manypeoplehavesaidisoutofdate.
SERENEJONES:Yeah.Sothisisoneofthebigdebatesofthecourse.Ilovesin.It
isnotoutofdate.Thisfinancialcrisisshouldshowisthatitisinfashion.Sin,for
me,describesthefactthatwearebornthrownintothisworld,andweare,no
matterhowhardwetry,becauseofthecomplexityofhowwe'reputtogether,
destinedtomakemassivemistakes.
Andthebestwecanhopeforisthatwe'reinacommunityofpeoplethat
continuallyremindusthat,infact,wedon'tunderstandeverythingandwearenot
thecenteroftheuniverse.That'ssin,theinevitabilityofthat.Andthen,onceone
sortofgetsaholdofit,youcanbegintoIthinkit'scentraltodemocracy.We
havechecksandbalances.
BILLMOYERS:Checksandbalances,right.
SERENEJONES:Becauseweknow,wecangooffinthewrongdirectionin
profoundways.
GARYDORRIEN:That'swhyI'mforeconomicdemocracy,becauseIthinkthat
economicdemocracyisessentiallyanattempttosortofholddown,serveasakind
ofabreakonhumangreedandwilltopower,whicharevirtuallyuniversal,soI'm
nottalkingaboutanythingthatrequiressomekindofidealisticideaabouthuman
nature,orwhatwe'recapableof,orthelike.Mymainargumentforitisthesame
thatNiebuhr,thatReinholdNiebuhrhadaboutdemocracy.Youknow,thehuman
capacityforgoodnessmakesdemocracypossible,butit'spreciselythehuman
capacityforevilthatmakesdemocracyutterlynecessary.Therearetwosortof
fundamentalstoriesorideasaboutajustsociety,whatitcouldbe,thathavebeen
operativeinUSAmericanhistoryvirtuallyfromthebeginning,andthatarealways
there.Andthatoneistheideaofprovidingunrestrictedlibertytoacquirewealth.
Andthere'sapoliticsthatgoeswiththat.Youwanttoholddowngovernment.You
wanttoholdevendemocracyisnotreallynecessarilyagoodword,inthat
conception.Andthenintheotheridea,it'sthatyouwanttoattainasmuchthrough
ademocracyasyoucan,oversociety'smajorinstitutions.
YoucaninterpretvirtuallyeverydecadeofU.S.Americanhistorybythewaythese
twodifferentsortofconceptionsofwhatajustsocietywouldbe,endupconflicting
witheachother,sometimesmodifyingeachother,sometimeschangingeachother.
BILLMOYERS:Areyousuggestingthatdemocracyisthepoliticalantidotetowhat
Serenedescribedasthetheologicalconceptoforiginalsin,thatasasociety,you
havetohavethesechecksandbalancesthatrestrainus?
GARYDORRIEN:Yes,although,ofcourse,democracyisriddledwithallthese
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

3/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

problemsaswell.Itisn'tjustaquestionof,"Well,whateveryourproblemis,you
justneedmoredemocracy."DemocracythisisanothersortofNiebuhrianmaxim
thateverygaininasocialjusticestruggledoesopenupnewpossibilitiesfor,and
evennewkindsofevil.ThatDemocraticmajoritiescanbe,ifthey'reselfish,if
they'rexenophobic,ifthey'reracist,ifthey're,youknow,whatever,ofcourse,can
createthesesortofnewstructuresofevilthatthenhavetobeovercome.
CORNELWEST:Butbothyouallwouldacknowledgethat,Imean,Thucydides
understoodthatpowercorruptsandabsolutepowercorruptsabsolutely,thatWole
Soyinkaunderstandstheroleofgreed,selfishness,egoism,narcissism.Neither
oneofthemhaveanotionoforiginalsin.Sowewanttomakespaceforour
secularcomradesinthatregard.Butitseemstome
BILLMOYERS:Alotofpeoplerejectthenotionoforiginalsin.
CORNELWEST:Right.
BILLMOYERS:Wheredoyoucomeoutonthat?
CORNELWEST:Well,Imean,it'saleapoffaith.Thethingis,isthatasa
Christian,webelieve,infact,thatwe'remadeintheimageofGod,andtherefore,
there'sasanctityandadignitythere,whichmeanswehavethepotentialtodo
somethingof,thatcontributestotruth,contributestojustice.Atthesametime,we
know,wearecrackvessels,sothebestwecandoisloveourcrookedneighbors
withourcrookedhearts,thewaythegreatW.H.Audenwouldputit,sothatwe
knowthatthere'sadifficulty,giventhecorruptionthatisshotthroughwhoweare.
Imean,Chekhov,myfavoritewriter'sagnostic.Right.Now,heunderstandsgreed
andcorruptionbetterthanmostChristianthinkers.Buthe'sagnostic.
He'sjustaquesterfortruth.He'stryingtounderstandwhowereallyare,andtruth
issomethingthat'savailabletoChristiansandnonChristians,Muslimsandnon
Muslims.Intheend,thereisatruth,andoneofthosetruthsis,weareprone
towardcorruption,misuseofpower,abuseofreputationandsoforthandsoon.
Sothatwe'realwaysalreadygoingtobeinadequate.AsSamuelBeckett,myother
dearlapsedIrishProtestantatheistcomradewouldsay."Wefail.Tryagain.Fail
again.Failbetter."
BILLMOYERS:Intippingyourheadtotwononbelievingwriters,youremindme,
ofcourse,thatthisisapluralisticworldand
CORNELWEST:Sure.
BILLMOYERS:Apluralisticworldandsociety,Americansociety.Infactarecent
pollsuggeststhatthenumberofAmericanswhocallthemselvesChristianhas
fallenbyabout11percent.Isn'titpresumptuoustothinkthattheworldcanbe
arrangedaccordingtoChristiandoctrine?
SERENEJONES:That'sactuallyoneofthepowerfulthingsaboutwhatIthinkis
thebellystoryofAmericaatit'sbest,isthestoryofdemocracy,whichis,it'sa
storythatallowsmultiplefaithstoriestobeheldwithinit,inwaysthatare
respectfulandpullingforththemeaningoflifequestions.Andallowingthemto
intermingleandinteract,inaspacethatisencouragingofdiscussionandconflict.
CORNELWEST:Partofithastodowithtryingtogetbeyondthelabels.What
we'rereallytalkingabout,Ithink,isacertainkindofmoralclarityandacertain
kindofmoralcourage,andacertainkindofgenuinemoralcompassion.Andit
comesfromavarietyofdifferenttraditions,sothatwedon'twanttogettoo
obscureinourdiscourse,andnotreallyjustputonthetablesomethingthat'svery
simple.Howdeepisyourlove?Whatisthequalityofyourservicetoothers?Are
youconcernedaboutthoseonthemargins,ordowedefineacatastropheonly
whenitrelatestoinvestmentbankersandWallStreetelites,asopposedtothe
preciouschildreninchocolatecities?
OrwhitechildreninAppalachia?OrredchildreninNavajoreservations?Whatare
wegoingtodo?Whatarewewillingtorisk?Whatcostsarewewillingtoactually
undergo?Youcan'tbeaChristian,ifyou'renotwillingtopickupyourcross.And,
intheend,becrucifiedonit.That'sthebottomline.Therestofitjustsounding
brassandtinklingsymbols.Howdeepisyourlove?
BILLMOYERS:Whatdoyoumeanbythat,becausethatoffendsmanypeople,as
youknow,nonbelieverswhosay,"Whatdoyou,youknow,thecross"
CORNELWEST:Ididn'ttellthem
BILLMOYERS:"Thedeathofthecrucifixion,"that'soffensive
CORNELWEST:No,no.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

4/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

BILLMOYERS:Toalotofpeople
CORNELWEST:Thecrosssignifiesunarmedtruthandunconditionallovecrushed
bytheRomanempire,embodiedinthefleshofafirstcenturyPalestinianJew
namedJesus.SothatyoucanbeanonChristian,concernedwithpoorpeople.
Sometimessomeofthegreatestdefendersofourpoorbrothersandsistershave
beensecularandpaganandHinduslikeaGandhi,andsoforthandsoon.
ButformeasaChristian,itmeansI'mlookingatthoseintheprisonindustrial
complex.I'mlookingforthechildreninourdilapidatedschoolsystem,inthe
decrepithousing,thosewhodon'thavehealthcareandchildcare.SothatTom
Friedmansandothers,they'relookingattheworldfromthevantagepointofthe
top.
VerymuchlikebrotherObama'seconomicteam.They'renotlookingattheworld
throughthelensofpoorpeopleandworkingpeople.TheygotWallStreetelitesas
theirbuddies,theircronies,intimateties,sothevantagepointthroughwhichthey
lookattheworldisvery,verydifferent.Christiansbeginwiththecatastrophic.
BILLMOYERS:HowdoesthatconnecttowhatGarytalksabout,economic
democracy,andthefailureofthewholecapitalistmodelofthelastfewmonths?
GARYDORRIEN:There'satendencytosortofplayupthedistinctivenessofthe
moment.Imean,we'rejust,we'reinitandit'sallaroundus,andpeopleare
sufferingfromit.
BILLMOYERS:Theboomandbust?
GARYDORRIEN:Yougetan,yes,yougetaneconomicoligarchy,afinancialelite
thatrigsthegameanditssystem.Andtheypileupamountainofdebtandthey
overreachingoodtimes.Andthenthewholehousecomescollapsingdownon
everybodyelse.Andthenyouenduphavingtodealwith,youknow,themess.
Andifyou'vegotanoligarchy,whichyoualwayshaveinthesecases,theyare
alwaysverygoodattakingcareoftheirown.
That'swhatelitesdo.Andso,thequestionbecomes,areyougoingtoletthem
organizetherecoveryontheirterms?Orareyougoingtobreakthepowerofthe
oligarchy.Andthenmaybegetorbuildsomethingbetterthanwhatyouhadbefore.
NowwhatIjustdescribedisnotthatmuchdifferentthanwhatRussiaand
ArgentinaandMalaysiaandSouthKoreaandplentyofotherplaceshavegone
through.Butit'sdifferentinthiscase,ofcourse,becauseit'ssomuchbigger.It
wentglobalalmostimmediately.Andinourcase,becausewearesobig,wecan
playbydifferentrulesthanalltheseothercases.Andthat'shappens,andthat's
whatwe'reobjectingtorightnow,isthatwe'lljustsortofstringalongandhopefor
arecovery.Andwe'lljusthavethesamethingthatwehadbefore.
BILLMOYERS:But,gobackforamoment.Aren'tyoudescribingthewaythe
worldworks?Isn'tthatthewaytheeconomicsoftheworldrun?
GARYDORRIEN:Yes.But,there'satendency,insomuchoftheliterature.Tom
Friedman'sbook,"TheWorldisFlat,"isjustsortofacatechismonthistheme,of
saying,well,thepoliticsdon'treallymatteranymore.Andthatstatesthemselves,
don'treallymatter.
Theelectronicherdhascontroloftheworld,butitdoesn'treallyhavecontrol,it
justdoeswhatitdoes.Andsothereisnothirdwayinpoliticaleconomyanymore.
Thereisn'tevenasecondway,youknow.There'sonlyonethingthatsortofruns
theworld,andsoyoueithergetonwiththatprogram,oryou'regoingtoberun
over.
ButIthinkyou'vegottorecognizethechange,inthecontextofunderstandingthat
politicsalwaysmattered.Imean,thatsomestatesdidwaybetterthanothers,in
regulatingthissystemandevenbelievingthatyouneededtoregulateit.Indealing
withequalityandevenbelievingthatequalitywasanimportantgoaltoserve.And
beyondallthat,simplylookatwhathappenedintheworldinmidSeptember,and
thenOctober.
CORNELWEST:Thisiswherethe
GARYDORRIEN:Governmentsuddenlycameupwithtrillionsofdollars
CORNELWEST:Absolutely.
GARYDORRIEN:Toholdupthissystem
CORNELWEST:Absolutely.
GARYDORRIEN:Thattheyhadbuiltanddefendedtobeginwith

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

5/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

CORNELWEST:Whyisthatso?Becausetheydon'tlookattheworldthroughthe
lensofpoorpeople
GARYDORRIEN:Right.
CORNELWEST:Andworkingpeople.
GARYDORRIEN:Right.
CORNELWEST:Thequestionwillbeforchurches,youcan'thaveaprosperity
gospelanymore.Theprosperity'sgone.Youcan'thaveachamberofcommerce
religionchamberofcommerceisincrisis.Youcan'thaveamarketspiritualityand
animperialreligiositybecausetheempire'sintrouble.It'swaveringandwobbling.
Andthemarketisnolongeramodel,atall.Sowheredowego?Transitional
moment.Thisisamomentoftheinterregnum.Wearelookingfornewways.Think
ofallofourEvangelicalbrothersandsisterswhotietheirChristianfaith,inpart,to
Bush.They'relookingforotherplacesbecausetheyknowitwasaformofidolatry.
Andwethisissomethingthat'sachallengetoallofus,notjustourevangelical
brothersandsisters.
SERENEJONES:Youaskhowyouwoulddefinethiscrisis?Ithinkit'sacrisisof
value.Wehavemisplaced,indeepways,therulerthatweusetomeasurewhat
mattersmostinlife.Andithasbecomecompletelyexhaustedbymonetaryvalue.
Butit'ssortofthesimplestoryofhowdowethinkaboutthis?
BecauseI'vegotinfrontofmeaclassfullofpeoplewhoaresittinginaUnion
classroomtobecomeaminister.Andsowhatdowetellpeoplewhoaregoingtogo
out,manyofthemaregoingtoworkinsoupkitchens,they'regoingtobeworking
inclinics,they'regoingtobeinchurchesthat,youknow,don'thave3thousand
peopleinthem,but30.
Howdowehelpthemunderstandthecrisisinsuchawaythattheremakingofthe
fabric,whichcanallowourdemocracytothrive,happens?And,again,Ijustkeep
thinkingit'sthesimpleconcepts.Howdowegetpeopletorediscoverlove?
Andwetrulycannotfindinourselvessustainedresourcesforthinkingaboutlove.
Forthinkingaboutaffection.
BILLMOYERS:Butisn'titafantasytothinkthatlovecantamecapitalism.Infact,
youtalkaboutthereligionofcatastrophe.
Theoriginsofyourfaith.And,yet,theprosperitygospel,thegospelthatbeganina
lotofbigAmericanchurches,sayingthatGodwantsyoutoberich,isspreading
likewildfiretotherestoftheworld.Now,there'sadifferenttakeonyourfaith.
Thatisnotaboutcatastrophe,butaboutsuccess.
CORNELWEST:Butthat'spartoftheescapism.Iftheydefinesuccessbyhowthe
worldconceivesofprosperity,ratherthangreatness.Inthebiblicaltextthe
greatnesssayswhat?Heorsheisgreatestamongyoubeyourservant.There'sa
clashhere.Averyimportantclash.
Butloveisnotarealsmallthing.Loveisnotjustthekeythatunlocksthedoorto
ultimatereality.Buttherewouldbenoweekendiftherewerenotatradeunion
movementthatlovedjusticeenough,andlovedworkingpeopleenough,sothat
bosseswouldn'ttreatthemlikecommoditiestobemarginalized.
Therewouldnotberacial,theracialjusticethatwehaveofMartinKingandFannie
LouHamerandRabbiAbrahamJoshuaHeschel,PhilBerrigan.Therewouldn'tbe,
withoutthelovethatyouallhadforjustice,andtheloveenoughforblackpeople,
tosay,"Quitniggerizingthesepeople.Quitintimidatingthem.Quittryingtomake
themsoscaredthattheywon'tstandupandfight."Loveisaseriousthing.When
youloveyourmamma,youtakeabulletforherifshe'streatedunjustly.That's
whyjusticeiswhatlovelookslikeinpublic.
SERENEJONES:Butthisthingaboutthestoryoflovethatwehavethecapacity
forincludes,withinit,arecognitionoftheharshnessandthebrokennessandthe
darknessofourlives.Andloveexistsinthat.Itdoesn'texistdespiteit.
CORNELWEST:That'sright.
BILLMOYERS:I'mnotsureyouhaven'tconfusedlovewithjustice.
SERENEJONES:Justiceisnothingbutlovewithlegs.Justiceiswhatlovelookslike
whenittakessocialform.
BILLMOYERS:Andthat'sthetradeunionmovementyoutalkedabout.
SERENEJONES:That'swhatloveis.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

6/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

CORNELWEST:That'sthewoman'smovement.That'sthegayandlesbian
movement.
SERENEJONES:Youputitinpolicyforms.
GARYDORRIEN:It'sthelovethat,that'swhatholdsyouinthestruggle,you
know.Evenifyou'renotsucceeding,youknow.
CORNELWEST:Allowingyoutosustainanddo.
GARYDORRIEN:It'stheenergy.Itpropelsyouintoastruggleinwhichyoumight
notbesucceeding.
BILLMOYERS:Youremindmethatallthreeofyoucomeoutofwhat,onceupona
time,wascalledtheSocialGospelmovement.ThemovementtoapplyChristian
ethicalprinciplestosociety.Andwasn'tthataresponsetothefirstroundof
economiccollapseintheearlypartofthelastcentury?
GARYDORRIEN:Thereissomethingnewthatstartedinthe1880swiththeSocial
Gospel.Youhaveasociologicalconsciousnessitselfthatthere'ssuchathingas
socialstructure.Andso,well,ifthere'ssuchathingassocialstructurethennow
there'ssomethingthat'sjustdifferent.
Thatmakestheequationdifferent.Thatit'snotjustaquestionofbringingpeopleto
Jesuswhowillthentransformsociety.Butrathersalvationitselfhastobe
conceived,notjustinpersonal,butsocialstructuralterms.So,withtheSocial
Gospelmovementinthe1880s,youdo,forthefirsttime,seepreachingand
theologyinwhichChristiansalvationisbeingtalkedaboutasincludingmaking
movementstowardthechangeofsocialstructuresthemselvesinthedirectionof
somethingthat'snowbeingcalledsocialjustice.
CORNELWEST:There'sasenseof
GARYDORRIEN:Becauseeventhetermsocialjusticeisonlycoinedduringthat
verysameperiod.
BILLMOYERS:ButtheSocialGospeltraditionwas,initself,overwhelmedbythe
materialismofthelastpartofthe20thcenturyandbytheturbocapitalismthatyou
weretalkingaboutenshrinedinThomasFreidman'sicon.Imean,theSocialGospel
wasnotsufficienttosustainitselfagainstthepowerofeconomicsand,infact,
structuralwealth.Right?
CORNELWEST:Right.That'strue.
SERENEJONES:ButIthinkwecanneverunderestimatethecrisisofdesire.That
itwasn'tjustthattherewasitdidn'thaveenoughsocialstrength,oragood
enoughanalysis.Thatwhatturbocapitalismdoes,isitthebiggest,sortof,war
zoneisinteriortouswhereittakesoveryourdesire.Itmakesyouintoa
creaturewhowantstobuythecommodities.Soyoucouldhaveagreatpolitical
analysis.Butwhatyou'redoing,onthegroundeveryday,isyou'refuelingthis
turbocapitalism.Andit'sinthechurchesthatanotherkindofdesireshouldhave
beenbeingcrafted.That'swhereyoucangetpeopleintheirbonesandreallybegin
toforcethequestionof,whatisitthatyouwant?Whatmakesyouhappy?What
makesyourlifemean?What,youknow,it'sthosedeepquestionsofwant.
BILLMOYERS:Butmostpeoplebelieveincapitalismbecausetheythinkitdelivers
them,itdoesdeliverthem,thatstandardoflivingthatisattheheartoftheir
longings.
SERENEJONES:Butthat'salsowhyweneedtorecraftthestoryofwant.We
needtoandthiscomesbacktothewholequestionoflove.Whatdoesitmeanto
begintonurturecommunities?AndthisiswhyIthinkit'scrucialfordemocracyto
thrive.Tomakeitmattertopeopleasmuchthattheyrespectothers.
Thattheyareengagedinacollectiveprojecttogetherofrunningthisworld.Now,
thatdoesn'tmeantosuggestthatbasiceconomicstabilityissomethingthatwecan
turnawayfrom.Butitmeanshowwebuildthewholethingupintoahousethatwe
liveintogetherisgoingtohavetobeahousedecoratedwiththingsthatarenot
thethingswewantrightnow.
BILLMOYERS:Butyou'retalkingabouttwodifferentrealities.Andthat's
understandable.Therealityofthehumanheart,whichtheologyandreligionand
poetrytouch.Buttherealityofeconomicstructures,too.We'renotfarfromthe
churchwhereoneofthegreatarticulators,oneofthefirstpioneersoftheSocial
Gospel,WalterRauschenbusch,heldforthinHell'sKitchenhereinNewYorkfora
longtime.WhatdoyouthinktheSocialGospelwouldsaytodayaboutthestructure
oftheeconomyasithasbeenincarnatedinWallStreetandthefinancialand
bankingindustry?
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

7/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

GARYDORRIEN:Well,infact,Rauschenbuschdidspeaktoexactlythisissuethat
Serene'sbringingup.That'swhyhewantedtoexpandthecooperativesector.He
said,"We'vegottocreatestructuresinwhich,"thewayhewouldoftenputit,is,
"Whichbadpeopleareforcedtodogoodthings."
Thatisifyousetup,havestructuresinwhichcooperationisactuallyrewarded.
Whereyou'remetwhereyouhavetodealwithotherpeople.Besolicitousofwhat
theyneed.Whattheycareabout.Andthelike.Thatyoucanactuallysetupreward
systemsthatmakeabettersociety.Andsometimeshe'dsayyoucanevenliveout
youcouldbeaChristianwithouthavingtoretirefromtheworld.Andsothat,I
thinkthesetwothingsactuallyweretiedtogetherquiteclosely.
CORNELWEST:Ithinkinourpresentmoment,though,itseemstome,themajor
challengehastodowiththesentimentalism,ononehand,whichisanescapefrom
reality,history,memory,andmortalityandtheflipside,whichiscynicism.Whichis
justpreoccupationwiththe11thcommandment,"Thoughshallnotgetcaught."
Andjustreadthebusinesspagesthesedays.Whatdowesee?Gangsteractivity.
Scandalafterscandal.Stealing,stealing.Embezzlement,embezzlement.Thatisthe
backthisistheaftereffectofgreed,indifferenceandfear.
NowweasaChristian,Iknowthere'llneverbeparadiseinspaceandtime.
There'llneverbeutopiainhumanhistory.Thequestionis:dowehavethekindof
conviction,commitment,courageandwillingnesstoservetomakethingsbetter
theshorttimethatweareheretopassontoourchildren?
Capitalismistamedonlywhenthosepersonswhoarevictimized,betheychildren
orworkersandothers,loveeachotherandjusticeenoughtoorganizeand
mobilizeandpushcapitalisminto,likeinthe1930s,collectivebargainingrightsfor
workers,right?
Orthe1960s.BlackfolkagainstAmericanterrorism,JimCrowe.Theyloveenough.
Andevenourelites.Ourelitesarenottobedemonized.Elitescanmakechoices.
They'renotlockedintoacategory.Thatareconnectedtotruthandjustice.Butit
takescourage.
BILLMOYERS:YousaidtheageofObamaisabouteverydaypeople.Andyou
askedthequestion:howdoweunleashtheirpower?What'stheevidencethat
that'shappening?
CORNELWEST:Well,Ithinkit'saverycomplicatedsituation.Because,ofcourse,
theageofObamaactuallyemergeswithadiscreditedRepublicanpartyindisarray.
WithamediocreDemocraticpartythatonlyhadtheClintonmachineatthecenter.
Andifthischarismatic,brilliant,young,blackbrothercansomehowgetoverthe
Clintonmachine,hecanbecomepresident.
That'swhyIsupportedhim.Critically!ASocratic,prophetic,orientationtowardthe
brother,right?Becausehebecomestheinitiatorofanewage.Wehadtobringthe
ageofReagantoaclose.Theeraofconservatismhadtobebroughttoaclose.
ThankGoditwas.Butthenthequestionwillbe,well,ishegoingtofocusonthe
poorandworkingpeople?Willherecycleneoliberalelitesfromtheold
establishmentofWallStreetwhichtheeconomicteamis?
BILLMOYERS:Weknowtheanswertothat.
CORNELWEST:Weknowtheanswertothat.
BILLMOYERS:Rightaftertheelection,youwere
CORNELWEST:Willherecyclethesameneoimperialeliteswhenitcomesto
foreignpolicy.Iknowhe'sdealingwithtremendouspower.WallStreet.Congress.
Andsoforth,andsoon.Iunderstandthepoliticalconsiderations.Peoplehavethe
righttoorganize.Lobbieshavearighttobringpowerandpressuretobear.That's
whatAmericandemocracy'sabout.
Butthat'snottruth.That'snotthesameaspropheticwitnesstotruth.Especiallyas
Christians,yousee.SothatthecritiquelaunchedagainstBarackObama,beit
Gaza,beitDarfur,beitinEthiopia,beitwherever.Ithastobeputforward.Thatis
thecallingofpropheticChristians.
GARYDORRIEN:Well,Iwouldn'tevengivehimtheoutthatCorneljustgavehim.
BecauseIthink,infact,hecouldstayinhislaneanddowaybetterthanhehason
theeconomy,andalsoonscalingbackthemilitaryempire.
So,onthosetwothings,tobesosolicitousofWallStreet,tohavetreatmentofthe
banksthat'sjustabsurdlyfavorabletotheirinterests,andrefusingtoclearout
shareholders,andrefusingtogettothebottomofit.
Andalsoinhisjustutterrefusaltoreallyfaceuptothecostandextentofthe
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

8/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

militaryempirethat,eventhoughhenotesinthisbook,"TheAudacityofHope,"is
outspendingthenext25nationscombinedinthemilitary.Hesaysinthenext
paragraph,andhehascontinuedonthisline,thatweneedtoexpanditfurther.So
we'vegotnothingcomingonsortofpullingbackonthatissueaswell.Ontheother
hand,youcan'tsaythatthishasbeenacautiouspresidentoverall.
Imean,it'squiteamazingthatheistakingonvirtuallyeverythingonewayor
anotheratthesametime.Sohehasthere'sbeenafairamountofaudacityin
decidingthatthisishismoment.There'snotgoingtobeabettermomenttocome
alonganyway.
Ifhe'sgoingtodosomethingabouthealthcare,oranumberofissues.Dealing
withIran,maybemakeabreakthroughwithCuba.Thathe'sgottoputhiscardson
thetablenowandgetwhathecan.
BILLMOYERS:Yousaid,aftertheelection,"Wewanttogivehimtime.Wewantto
givehimroom."Andmyquestiontoyouis:howmuchroomandhowmuchtime?
CORNELWEST:Well,thefirstthingwewanttodo,wewanttoprotecthim,andhe
andhispreciousfamily.Secondthingwewanttodo,wewanttomakesureallthe
criticismisfair,soit'snotadhominids,it'snotpersonal.It'snotracist.It'snot
whatever,yousee.
Atthesametime,heissubjecttoallthesamerequirementsoftruthandjusticeas
anyotherpresident,anycolor.Somycriticismoutoflovefor,notjustthepeople,
butBarackObamahimself.Howmycriticismhelphim?Givehimstrength?He
planstobeprogressiveLincoln.Fine.That'sdifficult.Hewillbehelpedbymore
progressiveFrederickDouglasses.That'swhatIaspireto.
BILLMOYERS:Doyouseethe
CORNELWEST:Tohelphimpushhiminaprogressivedirection.
BILLMOYERS:Doyouhearthosevoicescomingfromhisleft?Weknowabout
themfromtheright.FoxNews,RushLimbaugh.Weallknowthem.
CORNELWEST:Well,thevoicesarethere!PaulKrugman,andSylviaAnnHewlett
andBenBarberandWilliamGreiderandRonWalters.Thevoicesarethere.He's
notyetlistening.That'sthedifference.LincolnlistenedtoDouglass,Garrison.
BrotherBarackObama,heislisteningtoomuchtoSummers,Thurman,Geithner.
Wecangorightdowntheneoliberallist.That'sdangerousifhewantstobea
progressivepresident.
BILLMOYERS:Whydoyouthinkthatis?
SERENEJONES:Ithinkoneofthereasonsthatithappensisthatwearelivingin
averyoverwhelmingtime.Andit'salwaysgoingtobethecasethataconservative
familiarneoliberalagendasoundssafer.
Becauseit'swhatweknow.Butthetruthofthematteriswhatweknowiswhatgot
usintroubleinthefirstplace.Soit'soneofthosemomentsthateverybodyfaces
intheirownlife.Wehappentobefacingitstructurallyrightnow.Iseverything
collapses,whatdowedo?Inthemidstofthatfear,dowegraspforwhat'smost
familiar?That'swhat'shappening.Buttheverythingyou'regraspingforisthe
thingthatgotyouthereinthefirstplace.
CORNELWEST:Absolutely.
SERENEJONES:Ittakesalittleopeningofspiritandanopeningofintellectand
courage.It'scourage.
CORNELWEST:Absolutely.ThereisareluctanceofBarackObamatostepintothe
ageofBarackObama.Wemusthelphimdothatoutoflove,notjustforhim,but
forpoorpeopleandworkingpeople.That'swhentheageofObamabecomesthe
ageofwhatSlyStonecalls"everydaypeople."
GARYDORRIEN:There'salsojustthepoliticalangle.Imean,it'salmosttoo
obvioustosay,andyetthereitis,thathedoestendtotakeforgrantedhisbase.
Andhe'salwayslookingtomoveoutfromit.Sohe'snotterriblyworriedwhether
progressiveChristiansaregoingtosupporthim.Becausethey'vebeentherefrom
theverybeginning
CORNELWEST:Whydoeshetakethebaseforgranted,doyouthink?
GARYDORRIEN:Oh,wellmuchofthebaseisjusttooniceandquietandwillingto
rolloverforhim.
CORNELWEST:It'samomentofeuphoria!Whichisblinding.Butwhenwebecome
morecantankerous,vociferous,noisy,inlove,basedon,focusontheleastof
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

9/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

these,he'sgoingtohavetotakeusseriously.AndwejusttellthePresidentweare
coming.
BILLMOYERS:SoIwanttoaskthethreeofyoufromyourperspectives.Isit
conceivabletoyouthat,aswemaybemovingintoapostracialsociety,wemay
bemovingintoapostChristiansociety?
SERENEJONES:Ilovethatterm,actuallybecauseChristianitycouldwellbeits
bestwhenitgetscompletelyundone.AndChristianswhoarecommittedto
propheticpresenceintheworldshouldbe,inonesense,thrilledbythepossibility
ofitbeingpostChristian.
Becauseitmaymeanwe'recomingtotheendofsomestructuresofreligiositythat
weredeadly.Youknow,intheProtestantReformationtheywerecallingittheend
ofChristendom.Andwhatemergedontheothersideofitwasacompletelynew
form.
BILLMOYERS:Areyousayingthatthere'sa...yousenseahope,nowforanew
reformation?
SERENEJONES:Oh.It'safantasticmomenttobestandingataseminary.That's
oneofthereasonswhyIdecided,after17yearsatYale,tocometoNewYorkand
beatthehelmofthislittleschool.Ithasagreatlegacy,butit'snotahugemega
university.
It'sbecause,andyoucanfeelitinNewYorksopalpably,butwhatishappening
globally.Changeinformsoftechnology.Thebreakdownandreconfigurationofthe
nationstate.Formsofeconomicinteractionthathaveneverbeforebeenimagined.
Andacrisisofknowledge.Andacrisisofvalue.Parallel,inreallyprofoundways,
whatwashappening500yearsagowhenthislittleguynamedJohnCalvingotrun
outofParisbecausehewasaskingthesecularquestion.TheyranhimoutofParis.
AndheendsupinGeneva.And,inthemidstofallofthat,beginstolistentowhat's
happeninginEurope.That'sthechallengerightnow,isforustolistentowhat's
happeninggloballyandtobeabletotracktheemergentformsofspirit.The
emergentformsoforganizations.Theformsofloveandtheformsofhopethat
peoplearefindingonthegroundinthemidstofthesechangesandthatisgoingto
besortofthespiritualitythat'scoming.Andit'scomingfast.
BILLMOYERS:ButchannelthegoodCalvinforamoment,Serene.Wholistened,
asyousaid,andheardtherustlingsoundsofspringsprigsinEurope.Whatareyou
seeingandhearingrightnowthatgiveyousomesenseofencouragement,despite
thefactthateverythingthat'stieddowniscomingloose?
SERENEJONES:WhatIseeinmystudentsispowerful.Itisasensethat,inthe
crumblingofallofthis,whatisbeingunleashedisanintensesenseofthe
embodiedcharacteroffaith.CallitPentecostal.Youcanseeitinmystudentsnow.
WhatdoesitmeantocallthemPentecostal?It'snotthetraditionalthingswethink
of.Butthesearestudentswhoarecomingoffthesetof"AmericanIdol."Or
they'vebeenonawarshipoutsideofIraq.
Orthey'vebeenstockingshelvesinTexas.Andthey'recomingtoUnioncommitted
tosocialjustice.Andopentothepowerofthespiritinphysicalwaysthatgivethem
thiskindofzealousnessthat,foralargeswathoftime,theliberalleftlost.They're
doingthisasawholenewgenerationforwhomtactility,thinkingaboutthewaythe
bodylivesintheworld.It'sactuallyexcitingtome.BecauseIthink,intheirown
lives,we'reseeingthecontestationofthepowerofthemarkettoconfiguredesire.
Becausetheydon'twantthosemarketdesiresinthesamewaymygenerationdid.
They'recriticalofthem.They'recomingupwithnewformsofmusic.Andthey're
verycommittedtoasenseofpassioninit.Touseaveryscholarlyterm,Ithinkwe
needtouseitmoreoften,Ithinkit'sacrisisofmetaphysics.Thesestudentsare
asking,andtheirliberalprofessors,questionsabout,youknow,"Doyoureally
believethatGodexists?"
Now,theliberalchurchissortof,youknow,wantingtosay,"Well,itmightbea
myth.Itmightbeasymbol.Wecansaythisaboutit.Wecanbackaway."These
studentsaresaying,"I'mnotgoingtogetoutthereonthefrontline,andI'mnot
goingtoreconfiguremyinteriorworldtodesiredifferentthings..."Ifthisisn'treal,
theywantsomethingrealthatisanalternative.
GARYDORRIEN:Certainly,fromourexperienceofthecourse,thisisan
extraordinarygeneration.Imean,it's,theyareconnected.Theycare.They're
lookingfor,they'realwayssortofobsessingaboutwhat'sreal.Imean,they'vegot
radarforwhat'sunreal.
Forwhatisjustmerelyabstract,oritdoesn'treallyspeaktotheircondition.What
isn'tgoingtomakeadifference.Whatkindoflearningdoesn'tmakeanydifference
atall.They'vegotradarforthat.Butthey'reveryhungryforwhatisgoingtomake
adifference.Andhowitisthattheycanliveouttheirfaithinthisworldthatwe're
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

10/11

4/21/2016

BillMoyersJournal.Transcripts|PBS

creating.
SERENEJONES:They'renotafraidofhardthinking.Buttheyalsowant,theywant
beauty.Thebeautyofthethoughttoinspire.
CORNELWEST:Thisisoneofthereasonswhythesenewformsthatwe'retalking
aboutfindblackformsandafroAmericanformssoattractive.
SERENEJONES:Absolutely.
CORNELWEST:BecausehereyougotthisleaveninthislargerAmericanloafbeen
sittinghereallthistime.Theseyoungwhitebrothersandsisters,theywanttoget
intohiphop.Theywanttobeabletomovetheirbodies.Theywanttohavean
oralitythatissmoothlikeJayZ.Thereissomethingabouttheblackexperiencein
America,atitsbest.
Weknowwegotblackgangsterslikeanybodyelse.Atitsbestthatspeakstothese
kindsofissues.You'vegotMartinasthebest,inmanyways,inthepoliticalsphere.
YougotLouisArmstrong,SarahVaughan,JohnColtrane,ArethaFranklin.Somuch
ofthebestintheculturalsphere.Nowtheyoungfolkarehungryforit.We'llsee.
We'reinanewtransition.
SERENEJONES:Andwhatyou'vedonesowell,inthisclass,isremindusagain
andagainthatspaceoftherealisnotaChristianitythat'snice.It'saChristianityin
whichthere'slove.Butmixedintoitistheharshnessofthis.Imean,ourstudents
wantthat.
CORNELWEST:It'sthefunk.It'sthefunk.It'sthefunkoflife.
SERENEJONES:Itis.
CORNELWEST:That'swhatblacklifeisabout.But,intheend,that'swhathuman
lifeisabout.Howfunkyisyourfaith.
BILLMOYERS:SereneJones,GaryDorrien,CornelWest,I'veenjoyedthisvery
much.AndIthankyouforbeingwithmeontheJournal.
GARYDORRIEN:Thankyou.
SERENEJONES:Thankyou.
CORNELWEST:Thankyou.

ForEducatorsAbouttheSeriesBillMoyersonPBS
PublicAffairsTelevision2008PrivacyPolicyDVD/VHSTermsofUseFAQ

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07032009/transcript1.html

11/11