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How the Irish Became White?

Paul Ryan's Ugly Public Embrace of AntiBlack Racism & Eugenics

By Chauncey DeVega
Friday Mar 14, 20143:10 PM EDT

Paul Ryan is the leader of the Republican Partys intellectual wing. He has been described by
the news media in fawning terms as a policy wonk, a numbers guy, and a serious
Consequently, Ryan's recent claim that "inner city" black men are lazy and have no work ethic
is a revealing insight into the current state of movement conservatism and the former's
supposed intellectual gifts.
There is no genius in Paul Ryan's claims: his arguments about lazy black people are a
boilerplate post-civil Rights era Republican talking point.
To advance this claim, he leveraged Charles Murray's discredited research on the relationship
between I.Q. and race. Ryan's intellectual slippage is not a new habit. In his anti-poverty tome,
which purports (and fails) to discredit President Johnson's Great Society era programs, Paul
Ryan misrepresented and distorted research findings.
He is intellectually dishonest ; Ryan's claim to be a serious thinker on matters of public policy
is a cheap, and not very convincing, parlor trick.
It is also a perfect fit for the post-fact universe and anti-intellectualism of the present day
American conservative movement. Paul Ryan's recent observation about the laziness of black
people is also providing an additional lesson in how the Republican Party has now fully
merged conservatism and "symbolic racism".
Moreover, in a moment when Republicans have suggested that black and brown peoples
children should become janitors to learn a work ethic, that Obama buys black peoples votes
with food stamps, and that real Americans, i.e. white people, are losing their country to
non-whites, Ryans argument is a rather flat channeling of the Southern Strategy and Reagans
opines about strapping black bucks and "welfare queens" living in luxury as they leech off of
white people.

There is an ugly hypocrisy at the heart of Paul Ryans efforts to chastise African-Americans (a
group of people who quite literally built the United States and have never received
compensation or reparations) for having bad culture and perhaps even defective genes.
Paul Ryan is an Irish-American. The same arguments that Ryan is making about the bad
culture of African-Americans, and their supposed laziness and idleness, were made
against his Irish ancestors by eugenicists and race scientists in the United States and Europe.
Charles Murrays intellectual forefathers had little to no use for the Irish. As such, they spent a
great deal of time and energy trying to figure out just what type of white people the Irish
were, and how they fit into the family and hierarchy of whiteness.
Those who are considered white in the 21st century may not have been part of that racial
group during an earlier part of American history. Jews, Slavs, Poles, Armenians, as well as
Eastern and Southern Europeans more generally, were not considered real white people by
the consensus scientific authority of the 19th and early to mid 20th centuries.
The sociological evidence is rich: political cartoons during the 19th century questioned how
and if the Irish were fit for American democracy by depicting them as apes, and comparing
them with similarly caricatured and stereotyped images of African-Americans. The question of
how and if the Irish were suitable for American democracy also emphasized their Catholic
religion, and cast doubt on if papists were capable of being proper and loyal citizens.

Even as late as the early decades of the 20th century, leading American eugenicists and race
scientists such as Madison Grantauthor of the infamous tract The Passing of the Great Race
were unsure of the relationship between the Irish and "white civilization":

By the 1920s, some eugenicists seemed ready to admit the Irish or "Celts" to a racial status
closer to Anglo-Saxons. But not all. In the Passing of the Great Race, a highly read and
influential attack on "race mongrelization" the eugenicist Madison Grant waffled about where
the Irish stood.
Grant observed that a physical change had occurred among the Irish in America. The
"Neanderthal physical characteristics of the native Irish--the great upper lip, bridgeless nose,
beetling brow with low growing hair, and wild and savage aspect:--had largely disappeared.
The Irish apeman of Nast's cartoons had evolved a more human form. Yet, with the Irish, in
Grant's view, looks could be deceiving. When it came to intellectual and moral traits, "the
mental and cultural traits of the aborigines have proved to be exceedingly persistent and appear
in the unstable temperament and the lack of coordinating and reasoning power, so often found
among the Irish."
Race is a social construct. Its boundaries change according to the social and political questions
of a given moment. Race is a fiction; race is also real in terms of how it bounds and influences
a persons life chances by virtue of how society locates them both within and relative to a
given group.
Historians Noel Ignatiev and David Roediger explore this process and detail how the Irish in
America earned their whiteness in the seminal texts How the Irish Became White and The
Wages of Whiteness. Most recently, Nell Irvin Painters A History of White People offered up a
beautiful synthesis of the many ways that whiteness was manufactured and understood from
antiquity to the present in the West.
The centuries-long story of Irish assimilation from a group judged to be below or perhaps
somewhat equal to African-Americans in their supposed lack of intelligence, and propensity
for violence, sexual impulsiveness, and unfitness for white civilization, to now being fully
white, and where Paul Ryan can easily channel race science and eugenics, is a testament to
the malleability of race and the enduring power of White Supremacy.
Whiteness is an expansive and changing category: this is one of the primary lessons taught by
the colorline in the United States. We must also not overlook how the path to full whiteness is
made easier by both hating and resenting African-Americans.
To point. The Republican Partys outreach to white ethnics in the aftermath of the Civil Rights
movement leveraged such sentiments as it built a new coalition of working class white
Democrats and soon to be Republicans.

In all, Paul Ryan, like many other Republicans, has deployed racial dog whistle politics and
symbolic racism to slur the work ethic and character of black people in order to mobilize their
white, racially resentful, voting base.
Of course, the Republican Party and its neoliberal allies are silent on how the very economic
policies they have advocated and advanced since the 1960s are in many ways responsible for
the structural and institutional inequality that has created the jobless ghetto.
Those same policies have suppressed wages, generated abhorrent levels of wealth and income
inequality, destroyed the American middle class, and created structural unemployment such
that there are more job seekers than available positions.
Paul Ryans Ayn Randian dreams and twisted understanding of Catholic social justice have
resulted in him being the metaphorical doctor who is making the patient sick while
simultaneously blaming said patient for not getting better fast enough.
This is a cruel joke. The punch line is the suffering of the American people.
Paul Ryans racism and ego have enabled him to willfully misrepresent the research which
details how the denizens of inner city and poor black and brown communities are desperate for
job opportunities.
Of course, Paul Ryans bad culture and lazy black people thesis is mute on the question of
white poverty, white bad culture, and white folks dependence on the federal government.
Whites constitute the largest group of poor people in the United States. White people also
receive a disproportionate amount of federal assistance. And Red State America receives much
more in federal money than any other part of the United States.
Were Paul Ryan intellectually honest, he would re-frame his talking points and faux-concern
about the black, inner city poor, to include white poverty. I wonder, how would Republican
voters respond if Paul Ryan told them that they were poor and unemployed because of their
laziness and bad culture?
Charles Murray voiced his concern about the cultural pathologies and declining fortunes of
poor and working class white Americans in his book Coming Apart.
Paul Ryan embraces the discredited I.Q. race science eugenicist arguments of Murrays book
The Bell Curve in order to slur and disparage African-Americans. Would Paul Ryan ever dare
to find public inspiration in Charles Murrays research about the cultural pathologies and
failings of white people in Red State America?

The answer is no.


Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 03:10:33 PM
Tip Jar
Recommended 251 times

Mar 14 03:15:49 PM
Excellent essay.
I've read David Roediger's work before He's excellent.
Recommended 42 times

Chauncey DeVega TomP
Mar 14 03:40:52 PM
Theodore Allen's books and Saxton's
are great too.
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oklacoma dem Chauncey DeVega

Mar 14 09:46:49 PM
Ryan, Hannity, O'Reilley and others
Have turned their backs on their own heritage, and are probably totally unaware of it. I can
never get used to that.
In Tim Pat Coogan's "The Famine Plot", Coogan again and again details how the poverty and
living conditions of the Irish prior to the famine were the result of government policy and laws,
especially the penal laws which were designed to keep the native Irish poor and subservient to
their English masters.
The landlord system in Ireland was not by design a forced labor system, but mandatory free
labor was part of it, and it's hard not to see parallels to the slavery practiced in the United
States. Though the plantation owners in the south were invested in the lives and health of their
slaves, the landlords in Ireland were taxed on the number of Irish living on their land. Once the
famine hit, the death of the tenants was welcome tax relief.
The plot itself was not an overt conspiracy, but the system set up by the government created
both an impoverished underclass, and the conditions that made a famine inevitable. What do
you do when you create this kind of system? Obviously you trash the underclass as lazy and
intellectually inferior - and that is exactly what was done.
When the famine did hit, the worst part of the plot was executed by a couple of public servants
who fervently believed in - I kid you not - the hand of the free market and its ability to correct
all economic problems, in this case the overpopulation of the island by allowing several
million to die of starvation disease and the elements. Next time you see a passing reference to
evictions during the famine, rest assured many of these were almost an assured and immediate
death sentence due to the elements. There was one, on New Years eve, at night, during a gale
force storm, that put about 100 people into the elements with only the clothes on their backs.
When you read about emigration, the point to remember is it was forced. Eviction and
starvation was the alternative. The ships sent to the Americas, and Australia were called coffin
ships and the death rate on those ships was staggering. The living generally arrived at their
destination naked and starving, and here I see more parallels to slavery.
So, there it is. Every time I see an Irish name associated with the conservative movement, or
racism (am I redundant?) I want to bang my head on the wall. Is it ignorance, blindness, or
blind greed? I don't know, but I do know that every day these people open their mouths, they
spit on the graves of their ancestors.
Recommended 56 times

AoT oklacoma dem
Mar 14 10:03:35 PM
Capitalism and colonialism
went hand in hand to create the famine.
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dallasdunlap AoT
Mar 14 11:21:08 PM
If you think the Irish famine was bad, read
about the famines that capitalism and colonialism imposed on India. Read "Late Victorian
Holocausts: El Nino Famines and the Making of the Third World" by Mike Davis.
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R rugosa alba dallasdunlap
Mar 14 11:38:45 PM
yes, famines rare in India before colonization
and from what I've read the child mortality rate among English commoners was so high, the
average life expectancy dropped to 18 years (from 41 years) for the typical laborer in England
itself during the late 18th century.
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AoT dallasdunlap

Mar 15 12:01:03 AM
Indeed, where do you think they learned it?
They learned it from Scotland, Wales, and Ireland.
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oklacoma dem dallasdunlap
Mar 15 12:22:42 AM
will do that. nt
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R rugosa alba oklacoma dem
Mar 14 10:17:33 PM
excellent comment
This was an intentional program of the British nobility. and not just in Ireland. And of course,
they exported it all over the world.
It had been observed that, regrettably, English peasants were free to only work as hard as they
needed to, and no harder, with their time being their own. Adam Smith expresses his dismay at
what he considered to be the leisurely pace of labor on an English farm on several occasions in
Wealth of Nations.
Having a bunch of commoners spending their free time (after the harvest was in!) singing,
drinking wassail and playing with their children was an intolerable state of affairs. Factoryowners needing cheap laborers to endure horrendous conditions on 14-hour shifts. Capitalists
openly lamented that commoners would not take factory jobs so long as they had some land to
eke out a subsistence upon. This shortage of desperate hungry laborers was a huge problem,
because it lead to higher wages, thus lower profits, and this was a very great evil, an
impediment to the proper use of capital and industrial progress. English nobleman, Arthur

Young did not mince words in 1771 when he said "Everyone but an idiot knows that the lower
classes must be kept poor or they will never be industrious."
These people were utterly ruthless - the purpose of evicting small farmers from the commons
was to systematically impoverish them to the point that hunger itself would force them to go to
cities and take the detested jobs in factories. I have read somewhere that estate owners even
were advised to only plant hedgerows with plants bearing inedible fruit to ensure that the
commoners could not harvest fruit or nuts that would enable them to persist upon their
ancestral land - wish I could find that again.
Rev Joseph Townsend wrote "Legal constraint [i.e. slavery] is attended with too much trouble,
violence, and noise; . . . whereas hunger is not only a peaceable, silent, unremitted pressure,
but, as the most natural motive to industry and labor, it calls forth the most powerful
Now doesn't that sound a bit familiar!

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DarthMeow504 R rugosa alba
Mar 15 10:44:21 PM
It's astonishing and horrifying hear of such unimaginable evil. How inhuman, how vile, how completely lacking in even
the slightest of human qualities. Seriously... it defies imagination to think of people being that
cold, that heartless and cruel. It's no wonder people can easily come up with myths like the
Reptilians or fictions like They Live. It seems more reasonable to think that those who act this
way aren't human at all than to wrap your head around the idea that human beings can be so
If I didn't know you spoke the truth, it would be impossible to imagine anyone could be so evil.
Sadly, it's all too true.
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GreenInCalif R rugosa alba
Mar 16 02:10:04 AM
This is familiar
in two ways. One is that, shortly after Noah disembarked, I took a HS history class,
emphasizing England (since I was in Canada at the time), which mentioned something called
the Enclosure Laws. It was a minor topic, zipped past quickly, and I never got the point of it.
Made me think of cowboy songs like "Don't Fence Me In."
Naturally, the teacher didn't explain the Enclosure Laws the way your comment does. He had a
lot of material to cover in a limited time.
The other way this is familiar is NAFTA. The US Chamber of Commerce supported it, of
course, so that they could reduce labor costs by exporting American jobs to Mexico. Various
farm bureaus loved it because they could dump subsidized American corn into Mexican
markets. The 1% in Mexico (who call the shots there as their counterparts do here) loved it
because it had the effect of the English Enclosure Laws: drive the subsistence farmers off their
land and into cities where they became part of the cheap labor pool, desperate for any kind of
job in any sorts of conditions.
It's funny how no one seems to connect NAFTA with the rise of the drug gangs in Mexico.
Sure, the main problem is the criminalization (driven by American drug laws) of an enormous
market, made even more lucrative by being driven underground, hence completely deregulated
and tax-free. But NAFTA had to be a major contributing factor. Some of those former
subsistence farmers signed up as troops for the local drug lord rather than live in abject poverty
in urban slums.
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CaffeineInduced R rugosa alba

Mar 18 05:46:29 AM
Excellent comment
I read through your entire post thinking, "doesn't THAT sound familiar?" Then I got to the last
line. Yes. Yes it does.
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txdoubledd oklacoma dem
Mar 14 10:59:47 PM
Irish by Birth
I was born in Ireland and I am a naturalized citizen. My great aunt was a nun in Austin Texas,
trust me she would not recognize Ryan's Catholicism or his Irish ancestry.
He may think of himself as being "white lace " Irish and better than the rest of us but I consider
him to be nothing more than a hypocrite.
I would love to hear what Pope Francis would have to say to him about his love of Ayn Rand
vs his supposed love of Jesus and his teachings.
Maybe President Obama will ask the Pope to speak with him.
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Kombema txdoubledd
Mar 15 12:42:59 AM
You must be aware, I'm sure, that Pope Francis has
already weighed in in principle on Ryan and Co's zombie-eyed granny-starving un-"Christian"
Recommended 7 times

Againststochasticterrorism txdoubledd
Mar 15 09:20:16 PM
His admiration for Ayn Rand
is hilarious. She was a child of her times, a young Jewish woman born in the old world that
was torn between the communism of Stalinand the fascism of Hitler. Running away from
both to the US and losing her faith in the process, she saw the abject obedience of a person to
an ideology as the first step in a very bad direction. (I hope Paul Ryan is paying attention
here!)With the wars of religions as they were in Europe a few centuries before her time (but
the crusades and the Inquisition always studied in schools,) she saw religion as something to
eschew as well, because belonging to a group diminishes your own stature as a free thinker.
She felt that the government was too powerful in levying taxes (Atlas should just shrug up his
"duty" rather than accept the burden of carrying the world on his shoulders) (but she did take
advantage of Social Security / medicare) and was absolutely in favor of abortion. It is
revisionists like Paul Ryan who see her as the embodiment of their ideal (smaller government)
without studying her teachings or realizing that she was a pro-abortion atheist. (When I heard
Mitt Romney, the Mormon bishop-who seemed to think the world of her- is when I studied the
question. My discovery had me howling on the floor with laughter! I'm not too surprised to see
Paul Ryan truncate studies to suit his own ideology. It is the very proof of his superficial
thinking, without any link to reality.
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mama jo oklacoma dem
Mar 15 12:06:38 AM
Amen. I feel the same way when i see
an Italian name that is aligned with anything
republican or conservative, as this is my ancestry.

So, there it is. Every time I see an Irish name associated with the conservative movement, or
racism (am I redundant?) I want to bang my head on the wall. Is it ignorance, blindness, or
blind greed? I don't know, but I do know that every day these people open their mouths, they
spit on the graves of their ancestors.
I remember the stories my immigrant grandparents told,
and am appalled at any elected Italian with an R after
their name.
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whoknu mama jo
Mar 15 01:04:33 PM
Tom Tancredo
being a 'shining' example...
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mcrumpton mama jo
Mar 16 07:49:56 AM
There are sociopaths from every ethnic background.
It is a disease of the mind that allows them to be void of any empathy or understanding of the
reality of other people's suffering.
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from the sideline oklacoma dem
Mar 15 01:33:23 AM

Near 100%
Of all government held positions, governors, congressmen, senetors, mayors, DA's, judgeships,
lawyers, and most government agencies, including military bigwigs are all led by someone of
Irish descent.
Near 100% of all world and local news reporters in the U.S.are of Irish descent. Most all
positions of power are controled by someone of Irish descent.
If these positions were held by someone of Italian descent I would be able to spot it and would
make the same revelation, and of course would suggest that we were being run by the mafia.
I forget, but I think it went something like this, the Italian mafia went into big business, and the
Irish mafia went into law enforcement. Isn't it obvious? I am Italian and am pulling no punch's.
" The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a
point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself ". F.D.R.
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isabelle hayes from the sideline
Mar 15 06:11:18 PM
i think the irish blood can be found
everywhere in the world; and that the most frequent contribution to the makeup of americans in
the united states, at least, is irish
they, like the blacks, the jews, the arabs, the oriientals, the puerto ricans, slavs, etc. don't stay
"down", once they have a real chance at a good life
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flitedocnm oklacoma dem
Mar 15 04:42:27 PM
^^^^ Superb comment. Thank you. nt

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solublefish oklacoma dem
Mar 15 06:34:21 PM
Not so-old Irish saying
"Once the Irish get into the country club, they don't want to let any more Irish in the country
club". Spoken to me by my grandfather, and he should've known it: he was an Irish American
who grew up in the Depression working as a "gandy dancer", later in life a state prison security
guard with a pension. He was also an avid supporter of Goldwater, and later of Reagan.
Everybody wants to be in the club, you know. And once you're "in" - or at least you think you
are - you don't so much care about those other people anymore who aren't in, whoeverthey may
happen to be. You might even throw those people right overboard if they start rocking your
boat - or if you think they are.
Until we get a bigger club - one that includes everybody - "the problem of race" (excuse the
poverty of the term) is not going to disappear. For "race" appears to be a creature of class:
economic insecurity is its motive force, and the privileged classes are its agent, since the
division of the poor into competing groups protects them.
The Republicans need to dog-whistle race - they need to because their political
economy has so ill-served the country that a growing majority of people
are againstthem. Since the Republicans have refused to compromise on economic issues, they
need all the more to rely on splitting their opposition in order to maintain power (and on such
legerdemain as gerrymandering and restricting voting rights). They need to get as many
ordinary folks as they can to identify with the rich - and "whiteness" is all they have left to
offer. Well, that and guns, and a weird attraction to Sarah Palin...
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Steven Payne oklacoma dem
Mar 15 09:53:58 PM
Sent to Top Comments
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FarEastLA oklacoma dem
Mar 15 10:15:39 PM
Viking collaborators
But, some Irish collaborated with the Viking invaders and were traitors to their own kind when
Brian Boru tried to oust the Vikings from Ireland.
Not so different today, inasmuch as the Obamas are about as Irish-American as Lyin Ryan.
That other CONs adore him with the "thinker" moniker just proves how mindless and clueless
they are.
I think the during his only Real Job (2+ mos), Lyin Ryan was over-exposed to meat
preservatives. What I wouldn't give for a picture of him driving the WienerMobile!
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DarthMeow504 oklacoma dem
Mar 15 10:36:24 PM
When you refer to the Potato Famine,
never forget it was an ARTIFICIAL famine. There was food, and plenty of it, the Irish just
weren't allowed to eat any of it. The grain harvest on Ireland was just fine, but it was all
exported to England. The blight that struck the potato crop affected the only food the oppressed
Irish were allowed, and countless numbers starved while in the midst of abundance they were
not allowed to touch.
It was murder. Plain and simple.
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GreenInCalif oklacoma dem
Mar 16 01:50:01 AM
IMO this comment gets the point across far better than the original diary.
Maybe it's time for some inspired film-maker to dramatize the story of the Irish potato famine
the way 12 Years a Slave showed us the truth about the "Southern way of life".
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oklacoma dem GreenInCalif
Mar 16 01:02:33 PM
Damned good idea
I wish I knew an inspired film maker. There are a bunch of good ones in Ireland. Maybe one
will take it on some day.
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mcrumpton oklacoma dem
Mar 16 07:45:10 AM
The GOP's biggest talent seems to be
the ability to rewrite history piecemeal, picking and choosing from modern and historical
sources to bolster their current agenda. There is not even the pretense of intellectual honesty,
and there is nothing too shamefully dishonest for them to exploit.

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kris weibel oklacoma dem
Mar 16 11:32:09 AM
Thank you oklacoma dem for a well written opinion.
An Irish woman who recalls her Father's teachings.
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julifolo oklacoma dem
Mar 16 11:39:17 AM
copied this to my notes file
sorry too late to rec
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ManOWords oklacoma dem
Mar 19 09:03:51 AM
Excellent post - and sadly true!! Lyin Ryan is a huge danger to the American People.
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Expat and Proud of it TomP
Mar 15 04:48:37 PM
I agree almost entirely.
The author starts by implying that Paul Ryan is no intellectual, a conclusion with which I
would disagree. Ryan is very intelligent, a master of twisting the truth and spinning the facts
so that the conservative sheep stay dizzy and compliant. He is a master at crafting the lies that
are repeated by his colleagues and Faux News until they are believed to be the truth. Paul
Ryan is cut from the same cloth as Dick Cheney and Joseph Goebbles, and is just as dangerous.
I'd be surprised if Ryan can ever fake enough personal charisma to be elected president, but he
should be watched closely - he is likely to be setting the conservative agenda from the
background in the coming decades.
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sfinx Expat and Proud of it
Mar 15 05:58:37 PM
Being a very clever liar,
twister, and manipulator is not at all the same thing as being an intellectual. Real intellectuals-real serious thinkers--believe in the importance of thinking things through carefully and
I know you just meant to point out that he's sharp and knowledgeable, and I think that's right,
but part of what that reveals is how little that means without reflectiveness and a sense of
intellectual responsibility. I've occasionally had Paul Ryan types in my classes, and they don't
do that well, because they think they already know it all and just have to game the system.
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isabelle hayes sfinx
Mar 15 06:12:22 PM
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sfinx isabelle hayes
Mar 15 09:22:19 PM
thx isabelle!
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ecolady sfinx
Mar 15 09:55:27 PM
I agree. Having been a college professor
I have had to deal with the "Paul Ryan" types in my classes also. Their intent is always to show
their "intellectual superiority" without having to do any work, beyond the bare minimum. They
also always have a small cadre of admirers who take everything they say as gospel. Invariably
they either quit my class or flunk because they turned in a late paper, or a plagiarized one.
They are not intellectuals, they are performers. They show a remarkable inability to think
reflectively and they know nothing about intellectual honesty.
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GreenInCalif sfinx
Mar 16 02:24:10 AM
sfinx, watch your back!
The people who
think they already know it all and just have to game the system
are fractally distributed throughout our political and economic systems.
Someone you report to either belongs to that category or reports (directly or indirectly) to
someone who does. If the Paul Ryan types don't do that well in your classes, I sure hope you
have tenure.
Reflect, for a moment, on how George W. Bush got through Yale. Would you have wanted to
be the prof who gave him an F?
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sfinx GreenInCalif
Mar 16 10:01:38 AM
thx GreenInCA, I do try!
within the limits imposed by that inconvenient commitment to intellectual honesty etc.
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julifolo Expat and Proud of it
Mar 16 11:45:22 AM

linking Cheney & Goebbles

gets a rec
Cheney is evil.
Ryan is despicable, entitlement behavior trash. I hope one of these days his arrogance gets him
thrown out by the greedy .01%ers he's fawning to.
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HashHoward TomP
Mar 16 12:33:43 PM
Excellent! Thought-provoking piece!
[Of course, if you're a member of the GOP/TP, it's difficult to get it up enough to have a
thought, let alone one that provokes even deeper thinking.]
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Cali Scribe
Mar 14 03:25:27 PM
History teaches us
that man learns nothing from history.
Bill O'Reilly falls into the similar trap of demonizing the black man while forgetting how his
Irish ancestors were viewed.
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Chauncey DeVega Cali Scribe
Mar 14 03:41:07 PM
he earned his whiteness. why not?
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nota bene Cali Scribe
Mar 14 04:23:52 PM
Bill O'Reilly
he likes to think of himself as this blue collar guy, but in reality he's as lace curtain as it gets....
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akeitz nota bene
Mar 14 05:43:08 PM
SIGH I've got "Lace Curtain" family too
Is there something in the water on Long Island? My Irish ancestors were of modest means and
what means they had were whipped out in the Depression so they had to begin anew in what
folks would now call a ghetto.
Sadly one of the sons though the good fortune of coming to age in the late 50s had free college
via ROTC, good luck in business contacts via another relative and is a millionaire. He's almost
a clone of O'Reilly, no amount of persuasion will convince him that he is more like the "them"
he mocks than he is not.
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Chauncey DeVega akeitz
Mar 14 06:26:50 PM
The white middle class was created by the gov't
But don't tell them that.
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AoT Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 10:04:19 PM
The middle class was created by unions
It was kept white by the government and whites.
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anon004 AoT
Mar 14 11:50:27 PM
How many white people and
their descendents benefited from the reduced competition for college placements or jobs or
housing due to discrimination and redlining? How many blacks and their descendents have
been completely deprived of the opportunity to build generational wealth because of the same
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AoT anon004
Mar 14 11:59:37 PM
Most all of them in the middle class
and many who weren't. the racist history of white unions should be a source of shame for labor.
Especially the big unions. Have they apologized at all?
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marykk AoT
Mar 15 03:01:51 PM
Apparently you didn't hear Trumka speak in 2008

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awesumtenor AoT
Mar 17 05:09:22 PM
It was a joint effort
between labor unions (which in large part excluded black workers) and post WW2 majority
population affirmative action AKA the GI Bill (which deemed black veterans not worthy)
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TRsCousin akeitz
Mar 14 09:26:24 PM
We never like to admit how close we are
to those we consign to the "underclass." It reminds us of how precarious our lives are.
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drumzz akeitz
Mar 15 03:24:55 PM
I'm from Levittown and would love to beat O'Liely
to a stinking pulp.
My family lost their fortune in the depression too, my great grand-dad hung with Teddy
Roosevelt and was one of the first to own multiple bars in Flushing.
O'leily is an aberration!
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Mar 14 03:28:05 PM
I could swear it was on DailyKos...
...where I read a diary on how they believed discrimination against the Irish was a historical
fabrication. Now I can't remember who the author was to dig it up.
Perhaps this diary will prompt them to turn up...
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Chauncey DeVega MGross
Mar 14 03:41:50 PM
i believe on daily kos there was
a serious reading comprehension problem from someone named MGross on that same piece.
Troll elsewhere please.
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nota bene MGross
Mar 14 04:31:33 PM
Oh, you mean this one?
No, probably not what you had in mind, I think.
Perhaps you should bother to spend five minutes Googling, if you're going to make some sort
of casual, unsupported suggestion like that.

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Ellid nota bene
Mar 14 04:42:48 PM
I raised some objections to the illustrations
Not so much to the content of the diary, which I don't dispute for a minute, but to the use of
those awful 19th century cartoons to illustrate a diary on early 17th century colonialism. There
was a big breakdown in communications that was at least partially my fault.
That said, I don't for one minute think dismiss idea that whiteness is a social construct, or that
ethnic groups we now think of as white (like the Irish, the Italians, the Armenians, the Poles,
the Hungarians, the Germans, etc., etc.) were once seen as non-white despite having light skin,
light hair, and very often blue or green eyes. I do agree with that, and How the Irish Became
White is on my TBR list. America's treatment of non-WASPs is shameful.
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tommymet nota bene
Mar 14 09:29:36 PM
That's not the diary being referred to.
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MGross nota bene
Mar 15 10:57:31 AM
No, the opposite of that diary, pretty much. [n/t]
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oklacoma dem MGross
Mar 14 09:52:25 PM
I hope you didn't believe it!
See my post above.
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drumzz MGross
Mar 15 03:26:27 PM
You're full of shit
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R rugosa alba
Mar 14 03:48:25 PM
This is excellent
info on the Irish that relatively few, including those of Irish heritage are aware of, of which the
Potato Famine is just a small chapter, and the only part they've usually heard of. This history
includes the complete "forgetting" (both denial and ignorance) of the Enclosure Laws, Poor
Laws, Corn Laws, and clearing of the commons all over the British Isles. The commoners,
whether Irish, Scottish, Welsh, or English were all displaced, driven by force and starvation
from their ancestral lands.
This enabled the elite to forge a new world order out the free-market invisible hand mysticism
of Adam Smith, that is, modern industrial capitalism. It provided them both "cleared" land for
plantation agriculture and the starving and desperate "excess population" doomed to work in
factories and mines, transport to penal colonies and service in the army and navy.

So, ironically, the displaced were sent off to North America, Asia, and Africa to do to other
indigenous people exactly what had been done to them, for the benefit of the same elite class.
In my activism, I often have to explain this history to "white" people of various British Isles
extractions. As a person of both Irish and Eastern European Jewish heritage it is painful to me
to see the perverse level of identification many of these folks have with the perpetrators. The
only thing I can compare this to is imagining a Jew in Brooklyn or Warsaw who has not ever
heard of the Holocaust or the pogroms. I'm not comparing this to the Holocaust, please, please
let's not go there! just that the enclosures and subsequent diaspora were comparably HUGE
historical events with consequences we are still dealing with (ask any Native American). For
people, especially those whose ancestors were directly involved to not even be aware of what
really happened is tragic.
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Chauncey DeVega R rugosa alba
Mar 14 03:51:47 PM
I always marvel at how the Irish in Ireland
were supporters of the Black Freedom Struggle and anti-slavery while those in the states were
quite racist.
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R rugosa alba Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 03:56:48 PM
quite ironic, isn't it
I really wish this was all taught in school, in the same segment as the Industrial Revolution,
where it belongs, but that would put a big old hole in the free market lifts all boats myth.
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Ednahilda R rugosa alba
Mar 14 04:17:45 PM
It would be nice
if ANYTHING about the history of the Labor Movement were taught in school, too, but it's too
hot to touch - same as the evolution of racial identity in the US. Conservatives might have a
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Chauncey DeVega Ednahilda
Mar 14 06:25:20 PM
you know. that is why i laugh at the various
Right-wing myths about "liberal media" and "liberals" in higher ed and public education. A
joke. But a very effective con for the right-wing low info public.
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anon004 Ednahilda
Mar 15 12:00:09 AM
I just love your sentence
"Conservatives might have a sad."
These people can say the most offensive, brutal, cruel things, and not only do they expect the
objects of their invective not to push back (which damages their delicate psyches and somehow
interferes with their "freedom"), but they expect everyone to applaud their "insights" and
worship at their feet. Unbelievable.

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fenway49 Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 05:04:38 PM
Not all
My ancestors fought for the Union. At least one, according to his grandson, explicitly made the
comparison to Irish suffering.
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oklacoma dem fenway49
Mar 14 10:09:30 PM
good point, there were a lot of Irish
in the Union army. There were also a lot of problems between Irish and free black in the north,
especially in New York.
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Wolf10 Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 05:07:34 PM
Race being a biologically fictitious social
construct, as is racism, might go a ways in accounting for the difference between the views of
these populations. Their relatedness by blood cannot account for their social attitudes.
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AoT Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 05:28:15 PM

The Irish in America

have forgotten that we are a result of conquest on colonialism except as an "I'm not racist"
talking point. A people who had their language destroyed and who were ripped from their
home land, if they weren't starved to death or killed some other way.
Nothing shames me greater than seeing those of Irish descent forget their past and forget how
we became enforcers of colonialism.
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R rugosa alba AoT
Mar 14 05:54:13 PM
Not just the Irish Americans
Almost all Americans descended from the commoners who where dispossessed are unaware of
this and probably a higher percentage of Irish-Americans have some knowledge of this history
than say, for example, people of Scottish or English heritage. Southern states would be Exhibit
Note the number of Americans with common surnames that are clearly "common," e.g. Smith,
Wright, Farmer, Miller, Burrell, Cooper, Weaver.
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earicicle AoT
Mar 15 05:11:40 AM
Not this Irishwoman.
My grandmother was born in the poorest county of Ireland, in rural conditions essentially
unchanged for centuries. She left school at age 9 to raise her 7 siblings when her mother died
in childbirth. She came to America with $25 in her pocket--the legal minimum--to work as a
cook. After she married my grandfather, who labored on & then managed small dairy farms,
she cooked & cleaned & grew her own food, much like she had in Ireland. Every scrap of
money saved--and there wasn't much--went to educating my mom & uncle.

She was incredibly smart & funny & resourceful, and yet never had sufficient education even
to get a driver's license. Everything my mother & my sister & I have achieved: We recognize
that our fancy educations and other remarkable life opportunities come directly from the
County Kerry dirt beneath Gran's fingertips. The audacity it took to venture across an ocean
with nothing. The vision it took to want things for her daughter and granddaughters that she
never even knew existed.
I am a proud product of the appalling poverty my grandmother survived, the oppressive
colonialism she & my fierce ancestors defied.
Don't generalize about 'The Irish in America.'
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AoT earicicle
Mar 15 10:22:34 AM
And not me either
But for the vast majority of people of Irish descent it is true.
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earicicle AoT
Mar 15 01:43:45 PM
'Vast majority'...
I always have a problem with sweeping, unverifiable generalizations. Especially when they
refer to one ethnic group or race or class or...well, do you see my point? Millions of Irish who
emigrated to America, in fact, have a history of maintaining extremely close ties to Ireland.
Some members of my grandmother's family came to the US, worked and then returned to
Ireland--extremely common pattern that established ongoing family ties across the Atlantic.
For all immigrant groups to America, various pressures work for and against assimilation.
What is fascinating is to study theactual history of these patterns, as opposed to making broad
assertions that serve no useful purpose.
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mahakali overdrive earicicle
Mar 15 03:30:29 PM
I agree with the both of you
but my only claim to this argument is that I'm half some combination of Irish-Scottish-Welsh
and Dutch (and half Middle-Eastern Jewish who moved to the Ukraine and then up into Russia
before immigrating here). I don't know much about any of it EXCEPT the Scottish bit. The
Irish part wasn't well-maintained. As for the Scottish part, I want to go because it's traceable
back and seems interesting to me. It's the only part of my heritage that I can put a name to a
town other than parts of the Ukraine which are not doing too well right now. Such a mind fuck,
all of it.
I think we can talk about our individual anecdotes and find that they'll all be really different.
Still, at the end of the day, Paul Ryan is an asshole who has clearly forgotten his own roots and
is imbued with about 500 lbs. of white privilege that his ancestors would not have had, for
which he cares not a whit.
This happens cyclicly to Jews. We are coded, uncoded, recoded, and geographically coded as
"white" depending on where we live and who's doing the looking. We have a weird perspective
on these things (I look Jewish enough that this happens to me, but I don't look Jewish enough
to not sometimes pass in some places too... depends on what color my hair is, kind of... weird,
right? In Florida or New York, I'm "known" to be Jewish immediately; in a lot of the rest of the
country, I get "white immunity" from that coding. In New York, it "means something" to be
Jewish, especially if you're from a proper Mayflower family... etc.)
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earicicle mahakali overdrive
Mar 15 04:49:24 PM
Paul Ryan is a traitor to all of humanity, most
especially Irish and Irish-American people. [And an embarassment tohomo sapiens as a
lifeform.] What Paul Ryan is NOT: a representative of some amorphous 'vast majority' of IrishAmericans. Many of whom remain deeply rooted in, and respectful of, our very humble

In fact, I am proud to be the descendent of the oppressed, rather than the oppressors. If only
pond scum like Ryan could share the ethos of generosity, grace & gratitude that his ancestors
could respect. Instead of grasping and clawing to become an oppressor himself.
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isabelle hayes mahakali overdrive
Mar 15 06:32:41 PM
know what you mean
my jewish niece and her (nominally protestant) mayflower-descended husand's children can be
daughters of the american republic, once only the whitest of the white;
another 2 jewish cousins have korean and irish spouses, and american children
think of it! this didn't happen before the 1950's, and now it's common;
this has happened all over the usa, and the effect is yet to be acknowledged, but the liberalism
of the young is proof
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R rugosa alba mahakali overdrive
Mar 15 07:16:03 PM
I have the same experience
growing up there was enough bigotry and nastiness about my hair texture, full lips, etc. that I
don't feel truly white but I'm sure not non-white! it all depends - in Mexico, I was "recognized"
as a "New Yorker" which I'm not, but I understood what they were saying very well. In the SF
Bay Area I was white, but in the LA entertainment, design and textile industry I was
"obviously" Jewish and even warranted very dirty looks in certain neighborhoods while driving
late Friday afternoon. In the rural county where I live now, I'm white again. But I always feel

like I'm just "passing for white" and I am definitely aware of privilege, what it would be like to
drive while Hispanic or Native America.
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RUKind earicicle
Mar 15 05:43:27 PM
My mother's mother came over from Cork
Being second generation, I've been able to regain my Irish citizenship and passport. That's one
less in total diaspora.
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isabelle hayes RUKind
Mar 15 06:33:16 PM
same for my husband, eom
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RUKind AoT
Mar 15 05:33:15 PM
NINA - No Irish Need Apply
That was a common acronym on help wanted ads in Boston up into my grandparents' time.
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Mindful Nature Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 08:31:35 PM
Not really all that surprising is it?
Race and racism being both social constructs, you'd expect two different groups in two
different political and social circumstances to take different positions, and both do it for their
own domestic political and economic purposes, i'd suggest. The Irish to poke it to the English
and Anglo American power structures and out of sympathy for those similarly (rhetorically or
mythologically) situated, while the Irish here stand in entirely a different position relative to
those movements.
Ironically, I was a target of a small race riot in a predominantly Irish American neighborhood
on account of my afro Brazilian fiancee and our friends ofahem very diverse backgrounds that
didn't sit well with the locals in a small town just outside Boston. It was a very enlightening
and frightening experience.
I'm often super critical of your work and some of your positions, but this diary is truly superb!
Recommended 3 times

oklacoma dem Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 10:01:22 PM
one word. competition
In this case, competition for jobs and housing by the two underclass groups. The Irish won, no
doubt pale skin helped a lot.
On the other side of the lake, they had a better handle on where it all came from and exactly
who was responsible. See "Easter Uprising", Coogan's a good source for that too.
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ebohlman Chauncey DeVega
Mar 15 02:01:36 AM
It's important to realize that immigrants
from a particular society are, almost by definition, not representative of that society. I
sometimes joke that one of the reasons the Netherlands is such a tolerant place is that all their
intolerant people moved to the Dutch colonies back in the days.
Immigrants are a self-selected group, and self-selected groups substantially differ from the
population they self-selected out of more often than not. If I didn't know the history involved,
I'd think that the reason the area I live in has so many small businesses run by immigrants from
the area that was "behind the iron curtain" when I was a kid was that they came from a culture
that encouraged entrepreneurship and individual ambition. But I know for a fact that their
cultures discouraged it. Hmm, maybe that's why they decided to leave.
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Chauncey DeVega ebohlman
Mar 15 02:21:24 AM
very well put which is why conservative colorblind
racist arguments about "model minorities" and the "immigrants" did great why can't "the
blacks" is intellectually specious and proceeds from false assumptions.
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AoT ebohlman
Mar 15 10:45:29 AM
"Immigrants are a self-selected group"
Certainly not in the case of many immigrants. The Irish and the Scottish to name two groups.
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marykk AoT
Mar 15 04:15:08 PM
Given that many weren't so much immigrants
as kidnap victims, and another huge segment were refugees from starvation, I think that's right.
And that's before we get to the children travelling with adults, who were most analogous to the
children of migrant farmworkers, and didn't self-select squat. They were not exactly like the
workers who come in now on I-9 visas and are selected for particular skills.
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chmood Chauncey DeVega
Mar 15 08:51:30 AM
They were deliberately set against each other by
the planters, the slavers (just like the three-men-and-a-plate-of-cookies joke) - else common
cause would've been made long before now...even going so far (eventually) as to intermarry
themselves with the Irish in pursuit of a stable self-perpetuating 'enforcer' class that still exists
in semi-prganized fashion today.
Not unlike the way the conquistadors of Mexico use the mestiso population to keep los
indios marginalized and desperate.
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Ellid R rugosa alba
Mar 14 04:47:57 PM
Speaking as a Welsh-American
I think it's pretty safe to say that since the Welsh could pass as English, very often they did,
and after a generation or two their descendants forgot completely that they'd ever been
anything else. My mother once told me that Dad's ancestors weren't Welsh, even though I'd
found a copy of a genealogy that clearly stated that the first ancestor we could trace had been
born in Wales!

It was pretty strange...but then again, Mum and her family played down being GermanAmerican even though my uncle Lou had tried to track down surviving relatives in Karlsruhe
after the war. The only explanation I can think of is that one of those relatives had been an SS
officer and the family was ashamed, not that any of us in Pennsylvania had had a damn thing to
do with Manfred's decision to heil his Hitler all over the place.
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TRsCousin Ellid
Mar 14 09:36:19 PM
Oh geez, don't feel strange about your family
it seems to be a peculiarly American theme.
My ancestors were French Huguenots who left France because of the depredations visited on
them, which included having children taken away and put into servitude and being impressed
into involuntary servitude (read slavery) themselves.
So what did a lot of them do in the New World? Buy African slaves, of course.
I have never understood how people who had faced such suffering themselves could visit the
same kind of suffering--and deny it--on others.
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Munynn Ellid
Mar 14 10:31:03 PM
Same situation, Welsh in my blood
My Mum was a little girl in London during the bombing raids and was eventually evacuated to
the Isle of Wight. Sadly, she lost several childhood friends, and could never stand our 4th of
July celebrations. The loud bangs and other explosions were too traumatizing. My Dad was
German-American, his side of the family immigrated here early 19th century, fought in the War

of 1812 and were imprisoned at Andersonville during the Civil War. I guess my parents were a
kind of 'war reparation' marriage in the late 50s.
It is best you don't find yourself between me and Toad in the Hole...
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Ellid Munynn
Mar 15 08:54:13 AM
That sounds like the opposite of my parents
Dad was the oldcomer, from a family that had come over around 1740, while Mum's people
had been over for less than a century when they met and married. Ain't America great?
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brae70 R rugosa alba
Mar 14 04:51:08 PM
You will enjoy this, then:
The famous song "No Irish Need Apply, sung by a Jew- Joe Glazer.
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R rugosa alba brae70
Mar 14 05:05:54 PM
That's great! Thanks
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oklacoma dem R rugosa alba
Mar 14 09:56:50 PM
well said. nt
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dallasdunlap R rugosa alba
Mar 14 11:36:30 PM
Some of the tactics of both the Nazis and the
Stalinist Communists were foreshadowed by the colonial powers, more especially the British
Empire in the 19th Century.
The use of large scale famine as a means of control over a population was pioneered by the
The mass displacement of populations was used to suppress Ireland. Starting in the 16th
Century, a program of plantations was begun. A plantation was a seizure of land in a targeted
area, expulsion of the population, and its replacement with people moved in from England or
Scotland. This culminated in the Ulster plantation in the 17th Century.
The people known as Scots-Irish are descended from Scots who were displaced from
Scotland and resettled in Ireland. They're more accurately called Ulster Scots.
Comparisons to the Holocaust aren't entirely out of line. British capitalists controlled the food
supply in the colonies. In Ireland and India in the 19th Century, they were perfectly willing to
let the free market work by shipping food from the famine regions to where it could fetch the
highest price.
The death toll from the Indian famines was in the tens of millions.
Recommended 7 times

OllieGarkey R rugosa alba
Mar 15 02:26:34 AM
When the Romans arrived on the scene, they said
that the Scots, then Gaels, made "excellent thieves."
Wealth of Nations was a wildly successful attempt to legalize our natural talent at thievery.
And look what we helped the British Empire accomplish to that end!
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Mar 14 03:48:53 PM
Very well said
Race is a made-up concept used by people in power to divide the people below them.
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Crashing Vor
Mar 14 03:53:33 PM
Owsley County, KY
holds the honor of highest percentage of food stamp recipients in the nation.
It is 97% non-Hispanic white. And 95% Republican.
Culture problem, indeed.
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tom 47 Crashing Vor
Mar 14 04:52:13 PM
Seems to be, the problem is
being white and GOP (to follow their logic).
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SottoVoce Crashing Vor
Mar 14 07:03:54 PM
And I'm willing to bet there isn't a single
"Inner city" in the whole county.
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bernardpliers Crashing Vor
Mar 14 07:47:06 PM
"Inner City" As In "Warsaw Ghetto?"
As Wingnuts Say, "Nazis Were National SOCIALISTS."
Which is sort of true - that they believed in redistribution of wealth as long as it went to true
"Aryans." It was socialism exclusively for white people while the minorities were enslaved
and starved. Oh eventually they got around to enslaving the working class whites also, but
they were spared the actual genocide.
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JesseCW bernardpliers
Mar 14 09:04:37 PM
They weren't even "Socialist among Aryans"
While they did believe in land reforms to protect small (properly Aryan) farmers, nationalizing
key industries believed to be essential to defense, and in a basic safety net (for Aryans), they
had no interest at all in eliminating class structure.
"Volksgemeinschaft" was a very specific ideology centered uniting for common national goals
without destroying class differences.
If that's not at least a claimed goal of your Party, it's not socialist in any sense.
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bernardpliers JesseCW
Mar 14 09:14:07 PM
"Saving The Family Farm" Never Goes Out Of Style
i think those were the groups that actually had "Socialist" in their name, which the Nazis more
or less got stuck with. There were also extremely antisemitic. The bit about saving family
farms was in the 1929 Nazi party platform.
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dallasdunlap JesseCW
Mar 14 11:47:33 PM
The Nazis didn't nationalize key industries. They
had effective control of companies like IG Farben and Krupp, but the companies remained in
the hands of the ownership.
Ford Werke AG, a subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company, continued to operate in Nazi
Germany during the war, nominally under the ownership of its American parent company.
Bottom line: The Nazis weren't socialists.
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JesseCW dallasdunlap
Mar 15 02:27:00 AM
Agreed on your conclusion, but they *ran on*
Nationalizing key industries. It was part of how they tried to appeal to other workers parties.
That alone doesn't make a Socialist Party, of course. The core of Socialism is seeking to
destroy economic class. All else is about means.
That's something the Nazi's completely opposed.
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JesseCW Crashing Vor
Mar 14 08:59:01 PM
It's also the poorest or the fifth poorest
county in the US, depending on whether you look at percentage below the poverty line or
median household income.
It's been Republican since before the Civil War. Only 12 men from the county fought on the
Confederate side, while nearly every able bodied man enlisted in the Union cause. Local story
is that when the draft agents showed up, there was no one left to draft.
Of course, a hell of a lot of Free Soiler Republicans back then were deeply racist despite being
adamantly opposed to slavery. Their motivation was hating the wealthy planters who kept
manipulating politicians to drive broke white squatters ever West, not any firm belief in the
brotherhood of man.
It's just interesting to me that Dixiecrats never won this county. Ever. Unlike most of the now
Republican South, these aren't folks who followed Strom Thurmond over from the Democratic

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dallasdunlap JesseCW
Mar 14 11:54:19 PM
There is (or used to be) a phenomenon known as
Mountain Republicans in Kentucky and Tennessee. They are the descendants of people who
supported the Union during the Civil War and have historically been at odds with the Southern
Democratic establishment in those states. Their survival into modern times gave the
Republican Party a nucleus of supporters to build on.
Republicans like Howard Baker were supported by the mountain people.
Tennessee and Kentucky did not secede from the Union and were the scene of neighbor vs
neighbor fighting during the war.
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oklacoma dem Crashing Vor
Mar 14 10:15:31 PM
and I bet they are absolutely convinced
the democrats just cut their food stamps.
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Bad Cog
Mar 14 04:02:49 PM
Great Diary, Chauncey

You really nailed Ryan's hypocrisy-- and also made an excellent point: how often it is that
people find an excuse to hold down "the other"-- and, in turn, how often members of a oncepersecuted group still want to find their own "other" to hold down.
But our agenda is different, says the wannabe oppressor-- exactly what the previous oppressor
would say-- and exactly what the oppressor before him would have said before that. And so on
and so on it goes.
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Chauncey DeVega Bad Cog
Mar 14 04:04:21 PM
thank you. got to love Ryan, mr. grew up on social
security, got gov't contracts to live off of, and now gets a check as a "public servant".
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Dirtandiron Chauncey DeVega
Mar 14 05:51:10 PM
Yeah, don't you just love the
government-hating Teabaggers, who so desperately want to get elected to a government job?
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janis b Dirtandiron
Mar 14 06:01:06 PM
The irony of dishonesty
never ends, unfortunately.
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Mar 14 04:16:07 PM
Thanks for bringing up this fascinating
and always pertinent historical point.
All this Paul Ryan makes me feel the need to post this, probably to remind me that the Irish can
also be supremely cool:

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Ice Blue SouthernLiberalinMD
Mar 14 07:40:58 PM
The culture that gave us The Pogues
has nothing to explain.
Recommended 3 times

JesseCW SouthernLiberalinMD
Mar 14 09:10:38 PM
Their shows are always fun live.
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SouthernLiberalinMD JesseCW
Mar 14 09:54:23 PM
Now that I would like to see. n/t
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Mar 14 04:51:12 PM
Most people of Irish ancestry
also aren't aware of Irish immigrants being used in our government's genocide campaign
against the First Nations. The irony is heart-breaking. Divide and conquer is always succesful
when you take two different communities and promise access to the mainstream to one, as long
as they persecute the other. Great diary, thanks.
Recommended 15 times

AoT blueoregon
Mar 14 05:31:22 PM
And the use of Irish by the British
as part of their colonialism and genocide across the globe.
Recommended 12 times

janis b
Mar 14 04:57:42 PM
Your diaries
are a treasure. I so much enjoy how you expose intellectual dishonesty and unmistakeable

Recommended 10 times

Chauncey DeVega janis b
Mar 14 06:22:50 PM
how kind of you. your good energy and that of
others keeps us going. I also learn a great deal from the great commenters here.
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Mar 14 05:07:41 PM
A great diary
And a great service. For a little more on this (and more vile anti-Irish cartoons), people can
take a look at my diary from a year and change ago.
I have no patience whatsoever with Irish-Americans who are hostile to other groups suffering
discrimination, or who believe today's Republican Party offers anything worth having.
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Chauncey DeVega fenway49

Mar 14 06:24:07 PM
the funny thing is how the Irish were/are
very sympathetic to the black freedom struggle. folks forget their role in the abolitionist
campaigns and how Brother Douglass and others had to seek sanctuary in Ireland.
Recommended 9 times

txdoubledd Chauncey DeVega

Mar 14 11:18:21 PM
Don't forget Boston during school desegregation period. Not our best moment in history.
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fenway49 txdoubledd
Mar 15 01:24:12 PM
I get very tired of this. You're talking about two impoverished urban neighborhoods in an issue
that was as much about class as race. A terrible moment in our history, for sure, but so many
people act as if it defines "Boston" and "Irish" for all time
Chaunceydevega is right, though. I recall reading about a bunch of black kids from Boston
traveling to Belfast through a program designed to promote cultural understanding and being
shocked to see murals of MLK and Malcolm X near the Falls Rd. It never occurred to them
anyone "Irish" would support black struggle. But even here the "Irish" were much less
monolithic than is generally presumed.
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Mar 14 05:37:36 PM
I stand by my initial reaction to Ryan
if that guy is the 'intellectual saviour of the GOP' then my cats are MENSA rocket scientists.
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AoT duhban
Mar 14 06:07:24 PM
They're probably less of a sociopath

as well.
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R rugosa alba AoT
Mar 14 06:33:07 PM
so true
my cats are so "cruel" to their tiny rodent prey, but it's their feline nature. I suspect that awful
"playing with the food" is serving some biological function of triggering the gastric juices
needed for digestion, not wanton cruelty, as is the case with Ryan and his ilk.
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JesseCW R rugosa alba
Mar 14 09:12:46 PM
They're trying to avoid getting bitten.
One good chomp from a wounded rat can get infected and end a cat in the wild.
So, just like wolves nip at their prey to weaken spike it repeatedly with their claws 'till
they're sure it's dead.
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Retroactive Genius duhban
Mar 14 06:14:09 PM
Damn right
Ryan is an intellectual nullity. A crude, spiteful man of no ability but one: the ability to suckle
at the teat of government while biting the hand that feeds him.

So incapable of intellectual rigor is Ryan that he sees no contradiction between fealty to the
vile, amoral selfishness of the charlatan and hypocrite Ayn Rand and claiming to be a 'devout'
Ryan has either not read The Sermon on The Mount or failed to understand it.
In short, Ryan is a dolt, a hypocrite, a parasite and a proven liar.
We should do all we can to support Rob Zerban and give this odious man his walking-papers.
Ryan will be straight onto Wingnut Welfare, throwing a scare into the rubes and the barely
literate with his litany of lies and ugly fantasies. Fuck him.
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howabout Retroactive Genius
Mar 14 06:27:38 PM
I find this particularly apt.
Ayn Rand was a vile amoral charlatan and hypocrite but she was still more honest than Paul
Ryan because she did not claim Jesus.
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Chauncey DeVega duhban
Mar 14 06:23:16 PM
don't give the cats any ideas :)
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duhban Chauncey DeVega

Mar 14 06:36:52 PM
lol too late ;)
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chmood Chauncey DeVega
Mar 15 09:08:34 AM
ALWAYS good advice!
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TRsCousin duhban
Mar 14 09:44:24 PM
I definitely have no doubt about your cats...
remember that Newt Gingrich was also hailed as the "intellectual" of the Republican party--he
who claimed that women weren't suitable for more serious military service because they "got
sick" once a month.
Ryan has a BS from Miami University in economics--hoo boy, am I impressed as to his
credentials, too.
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Mar 14 06:00:19 PM
RE: The Commitments
Do you not get it, lads? The Irish are the blacks of Europe. And Dubliners are the blacks of
Ireland. And the Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin. So say it once, say it loud: I'm

black and I'm proud.

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tporky tporky
Mar 14 06:14:37 PM
quoted from the character, Jimmy Rabbit
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SottoVoce tporky
Mar 14 07:00:44 PM
One of the greatest moments in a
Really great film.
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oklacoma dem tporky
Mar 14 10:27:08 PM
ooh, cleaned up the language a bit, did you? nt
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Ian Reifowitz
Mar 14 06:30:49 PM

One of your most powerful posts.

And that's saying something. A terrific takedown of Ryan's sick joke of a "philosophy" on
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Mar 14 06:44:58 PM
This may sound ingenuous.
I was born in 1953 in rural Michigan, white and female and poor.
I was very little when I realized boys were considered better than girls. Well, that made no
sense. I thought when I was older and smarter I would see the sense in it.
White skin was considered superior to black skin. This too was nonsensical, but what did I
know. Someday I would see the sense in it.
I am 60 years old and I know that little girl was right and the so-called adults were wrong.
Thanks CDV.
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Mar 14 06:48:23 PM
Thanks for the diary
The Irish were not the only inhabitants of the British Isles who once regarded as less than
civilized. The Celts , the Britons, the Angles, the Saxons and other assorted groups were
regarded in ancient times as savage and incapable of being fully civilized. Perhaps those
ancient critics were correct.
Of course with my Slovene and Swedish roots, along with French and Irish background, I have
little room to talk.

As for Paul Ryan, I have little doubt that he would have any problem denigrating a particular
white ethnic group if he felt it would benefit him politically. All one had to do is study history
of the labor movement to see how different ethnic groups were set against each other.
Thanks again.
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chmood slatsg
Mar 15 09:10:30 AM
You're saying it's all the fault of the French?
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slatsg chmood
Mar 15 09:56:57 AM
Are you suggesting it isn't?
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Mar 14 06:52:49 PM
The "Neanderthal physical characteristics of the native Irish-...
Its interesting that they used to associate "lower" races/ethnicities with neanderthal blood. We
now know based on DNA studies that black Africans are the only major group of people today
that have no Neanderthal blood.
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Visceral sny
Mar 14 08:58:37 PM
and racists are starting to shift on Neanderthals
drawing attention to their alleged artistic temperament and saying the Neanderthals are what
ended up making the difference between blacks and everyone else.
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JesseCW Visceral
Mar 14 09:16:15 PM
Turns out, most retained Neandethal DNA
(that we know the purpose of) has to do with our immune systems and production of certain
Basically, populations of modern humans outside of Africa that absorbed Neanderthal genes
held on to the stuff that made us better at resisting Eurasian bugs.
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TRsCousin sny
Mar 14 09:55:23 PM
As someone who probably has a fair amount of the

Neanderthal genome, thanks to French and German ancestry, I wonder how Neanderthal came
to be such a whipping boy in our storehouse of ethnic slurs?
Difference, power differential, minority status perhaps?
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TheOtherMaven TRsCousin
Mar 15 12:40:50 AM
"They don't look like us" = "they're ugly". It didn't help that the first Neanderthal skeleton to be
discovered was that of an old man badly crippled by arthritis, which led to the false impression
of Neanderthals as shambling "ape-men".
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TRsCousin TheOtherMaven
Mar 15 09:03:17 PM
I never thought I was that bad-looking....
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Mar 14 07:06:59 PM
Every high school and university student should be made to read this. This is not only an
excellent essay but the writing is of such quality that it is accessible even to the young. Best
thing I've read in a long while.

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Mar 14 07:30:14 PM
Paul Ryan a self denier
Ryan survived because of the Government Welfare system after his father died...but distances
himself from that and used undefendable racial slurs to create an even greater divide and
'allow' poor whites a sense of superiority that really goes back to the civil war era. It's kind of
like they(poor whites) keep telling themselves well he's not talking about me, so I must be
okay, even though they are actually birds maybe of a different feather but laying in the same
situation and many times even worse. Lee Atwater talked about those who voted GOP while
not voting their own best interest and that theGOP Leaders "LAUGHTED at THEM". See
the Lee Atwater story on the net by PBS, he was George H. W. Bush's pre presidential political
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Mar 14 07:34:19 PM
Most excellent piece of work here! Thank you. n/t
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Major Kong
Mar 14 07:44:18 PM
My father grew up ethnic in the 1950s

As he's described it to me, if you were Lebanese in the 1950s you were about one notch above
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kayak58 Major Kong
Mar 14 10:35:51 PM
Same for the Sicilians, or nearly
My grandfather's "race" on the ship's manifest that brought him to NY was S. European.
People who assimilate want to be white. My father's generation and his father's were all about
'passing'. They sacrificed a lot for that, and because THEY made it, they can't understand why
Other People, who, as they point out, have been in this country longer than they have, can't
make it too.
Seriously, that's the line you'll get. OTOH, remembering very vicious ethnic jokes in the 60s,
being literally spat at and having Catholicism considered unAmerican - to find my ilk
considered lily white is, well - ironic.
A construct, indeed. And very very fluid.
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Mar 14 07:53:35 PM
An excellent example
Of why I come here.
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Mar 14 08:05:20 PM

Damn history anyway!

Ryan was speaking of himself and his ancestors, too friggin funny.gwahahahahaha, what a
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Balance and Abandon
Mar 14 08:18:38 PM
A good reminder
Of who the enemy really is.
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Mar 14 08:24:16 PM
Ryan and Catholic social justice
I was raised Roman Catholic. I went to parochial school for years and was taught by nuns. I
gave up the RCC long ago, but I can tell you that the nuns who taught me would recognize
nothing Catholic in Paul Ryan's political beliefs.
The Catholic teaching I received stemmed from the idea that one cannot achieve salvation
based on faith alone. (A big dividing point between Catholics and some Protestants.) Instead,
you will only enter heaven through acts of faith. Most important among these are what were
often called "good works." That meant loving your neighbor and, if necessary, sharing with
him your material goods.
Not once did I ever hear any of my Catholic teachers express concern that such charity to the
poor would create a culture of dependency. In fact, we were supposed to be supportive of
anything that relieved the suffering of the poor and the sick, and we were supposed to
contribute our energies to that effort.
So Paul Ryan may claim to be a good Irish Catholic, but unless the dogma has changed a hell
of a lot since I was a kid, he must have fallen asleep in catechism class.

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TRsCousin FogCityJohn
Mar 14 10:00:22 PM
Ryan obviously prefers to overlook Jesus's
injunction to "feed my lambs," as well as "as much as you have done it to the least of these, my
brothers, you have done it unto me."
I suspect Ryan followed the forms of Catholicism without assimilating the substance.
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Mar 14 08:31:40 PM
Many Irish were forced into slavery
in the Colonies in the middle 17th Century - mostly children.
How soon people forget their origins, and how quick to take a superior attitude.
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Mar 14 09:16:09 PM
in my opinion
i think the X factor is illegitimacy. Black illegitimacy rates 55 years ago were lower than white
rates now. If a child is born illegitimate it puts it behind the eight ball from birth.
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CaliSista bonzo925
Mar 14 10:16:28 PM
So in 1959, things were better for
Black people? That almost sounds like the idiot who was arguing that Black people were better
off during slavery because of intact families.
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bonzo925 CaliSista
Mar 14 10:55:11 PM
vanderplaats is a crazy fundie
I'm an agnostic, but you don't have to be a christian to know that out of wedlock births are a
(inter-racial I might add) societal problem.
My point is, if the black family survived lots of things far worse, why can't they survive now
when things are comparatively better.
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dallasdunlap CaliSista
Mar 15 12:01:42 AM
In the early days of desegregation, members of the
black middle class - business owners - were hurt by sudden competition from white owned
businesses. And two parent households were the rule among African Americans then.

But, of course, the more stable black social structure doesn't begin to make up for the
astonishing array of petty and major humiliations that African Americans had to endure under
DE JURE segregation.
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CaliSista dallasdunlap
Mar 15 02:01:44 AM
Apparently I'm missing the point from
you and the OP. Say the stats quoted are correct (and I don't necessarily assume they are). So?
What does that have to do with the matter under discussion in this diary? Are you and bonzo
saying Ryan's conclusion is mistaken only due to his reasoning? In other words, it's not the
lack of work ethic aka shiftless Negroes but rather all the baby mamas out there?
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AoT bonzo925
Mar 15 12:08:41 AM
As an illegitimate child
I think you're talking out your ass.
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Chauncey DeVega bonzo925

Mar 15 02:24:51 AM
confusing effect and cause...
I love the magical get married will solve structural unemployment argument. Marriage is about
socio-economics and how folks choose to or not do so and make a calculation about the
marriage market. Get married great. You are still under resources and/or without a job.
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bonzo925 Chauncey DeVega
Mar 15 01:50:20 PM
ok then
being married helps keep income together. The poverty rate for married couples are a fraction
that of unmarried ones (and this is coming from a single person).
Also being married doesn't mean having children. It's not unheard of for people to wait ten
years after marrying to finally have children.
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Chauncey DeVega bonzo925
Mar 15 04:02:56 PM
don't get the causal arrows confused
many people who are not employed, men in particular, delay marriage. you don't magically get
a job because you are married. and there are many ways that folks who are outside of the
"normal" economy can and do combine resources. See Venkatesh's work "Off the Books" and I
believe the title is "American Ghetto".
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Mar 14 09:16:23 PM
Superb diary.
There is virtually nothing about the post-Civil Rights era GOP that is not soul-crushingly
racist. Their electoral successes have been fully dependent on "the fear of the other" and,
although things are changing faster than they had anticipated, they do not appear to be letting

go of that formula. Far from being anything related to a thoughtful human being, Paul Ryan is
just another braindead fearmonger of the sort that the GOP pumps out on a regular basis.
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Chauncey DeVega EdSF
Mar 15 02:25:37 AM
thank you. had to be said. surprised more tv and
high profile talking heads have not picked up on his obvious hypocrisy.
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Mar 14 09:32:52 PM
more competition at the bottom than the top
When the fear of falling farther looms larger in your imagination than the hope of rising higher,
your moral calculus changes. The Irish didn't want the blacks to push them from second to last
to dead last and were willing to make common cause with racist Anglos to do it. Sadly it
makes sense for both parties: the Irish (like the French and Germans before them and the
Italians, Poles, Jews, and Asians after them) get to protect their position in the racial/ethnic
hierarchy against displacement from below and then open the door to real advancement, and
the Anglo elite gets to win over potentially antagonistic minorities who might otherwise
threaten their own dominance.
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Uncle Moji
Mar 14 09:35:50 PM

Brilliant diary. Spot on.

Up until the 1950s, (not that long ago for some of us) Harvard College would not accept
anyone with an Irish surname for employ in offices, even low paying clerical positions.
I know someone who was turned away for work, told "This is not the place for you" by the
Personnel Office, despite her high skill and education, when pressed, the personnel official said
"You are a pretty young lady, but we don't hire Irish." She responded, "But, I'm not Irish, my
husband is Irish, I'm French." He replied "It doesn't matter, your name is Irish, you're Irish.
We do not hire the Irish."
Paul Ryan, this is your history.
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kayak58 Uncle Moji
Mar 14 10:37:14 PM
Can I rec this more than once, please? n/t
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Mar 14 09:39:32 PM
Gangs of New York
He's a modern day Bill the Butcher.
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The Sheeping of America
Mar 14 09:40:36 PM
Most Excellent Diary

And guess what day is coming up St. Patrick's Day when people celebrate the drunken Irish
and make sure you wear green.
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Sixty Something
Mar 14 10:04:00 PM
A chaunceydevega never disappoints.
Thank you.
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Chauncey DeVega Sixty Something
Mar 15 02:25:59 AM
don't make a black man blush :)
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Mar 14 10:20:14 PM
Divide and conquer
This is a great example summary of how the upper class has and continues to defeat the rest of
us. It is a standard WAR tactic... Divide and Conquer. Yes, class warfare is real and ongoing.
The powerful elites manipulate the rest of us by generating conflict among us over "social
issues" so our focus (and vote) is turned away from the facts of being economically pillaged.
The Irish menace, the Italian menace, the Puerto Rican menace, the communist menace, the
Black menace, the drug menace, the Gay menace, the Feminist menace, the atheist menace,
etc. etc.

There is no menace among us. The real menace is the power elite working to continually
divide us and distract us from what matters (in the sphere of government policy and
economics)... wealth and power.
Sadly, we never overcome the manipulation. As a whole we never see that we are continually
divided and pitted against each other to accomplish the aims of the power elite. Social issues
are a distraction from the real issues. That is the message that has to become the meme of a
generation. That is what it will take for the people to gain back the ownership and power of
their own government.
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Mar 14 10:54:37 PM
Paul Ryan is frightened of losing White Privilege
Excellent diary,chaunceydevega..
Tim Wise has an excellent site about whiteness. Reading Peggy McIntosh's Unveiling
the Invisible Knapsack of White Privilege was also helpful in my counter-attacks to the Ted
Nugents and Paul Ryans of 'Merica.
I have a coworker is is sadly quite vocal in his denunciation of affirmative action. Mind you,
he blows hard into a dog whistle, but I recognize the Code. He is of Irish ancestry, and I just
don't need to fan the flames of what could be a hostile work environment. I have wanted to say
that compared to MY British and German genetics, he is of the lesser 'white' scale. He is
Catholic like Paul Ryan, and may be aware of how the Irish were treated, but seems to twist it
in a way as JUSTIFYING his treatment of others. I guess as a "we survived", so it's not so bad.
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Mar 14 11:05:08 PM
A diary I needed to read
I've been listening to reactions to Ryan's statement and feeling increasingly frustrated. I think
it's a pretty transparent attempt to distract from the conversation about income inequality.
Instead of addressing that problem, Ryan points in the other direction at fictional "inner city"
black and brown people who don't want to work. It'll work with his base, no doubt. It'll work
with his donors. Thankfully, Barbara Lee and the CBC loudly called him out on it. At least
his message won't be met with silence. Dems and progressives need to keep pointing out the
truth -- that poverty affects whites and people of all races; that it's not going away by the
pulling up of non-existent boot straps; and that conservatives don't want to address poverty
because they want all public resources channeled into private hands.
I think someone needs to throw the Pope's recent statements on poverty and capitalism in Paul
Ryan's racist face so he at least is shamed by a fellow Catholic.
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Mar 14 11:38:07 PM
I remember going back and forth with
a commenter on another board about the alleged lower IQ of Hispanics. (I'm white and my
daughter is adopted from Guatemala, so, I'll cop to the fact that I wasn't exactly a detached
observer; as the Republicans like to pontificate, I had some "skin in the game.") Setting aside
the demonstrated cultural and educational bias of the IQ test, I was flummoxed that this person
thought everyone who happened to speak Spanish (the definition of "Hispanic") from Spain
and large chunks of the Western Hemisphere could be considered genetically inferior when
they are as genetically diverse as Europe is. The fact that it's a category based upon language
should be a major clue -- it's an accident of imperialism that so many people in the Western
Hemisphere have Spanish as their native language. If the Germans or the Chinese had gotten
here first and been able to conquer and exploit the people here, they would have been speaking
German or Mandarin. And, if the people of the Western Hemisphere had crossed the Atlantic
the other way, wouldn't most of Europe be speaking Quechua? Believing that intelligence

(whatever THAT is) is based upon ethnicity is one of the dumbest concepts humans have ever
come up with. Ever.
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TheOtherMaven anon004
Mar 15 12:55:42 AM
More likely Nahuatl or Mayan
given that the Tawantinsuyu ("Incas") were a very long way from the Atlantic (though their
empire did run down to the Pacific and they may have done some occasional trading with
Pacific Islanders).
None of the great Mesoamerican civilizations were strong on shipbuilding, which is one reason
why they didn't go out trying to explore/conquer the rest of the world. (And given that the
Caribbean is one of the world's major hurricane spawning grounds - in fact the name
"hurricane" is Mesoamerican and probably Mayan - it's not too surprising that they were slow
to develop large water craft.)
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Mar 15 01:00:15 AM
Tommy Makem could have told him a thing or two
They Told Us No Irish Need Apply
Lyrics: Tommy Makem
Just think of all the presidents who came from Irish folk
There was Wilson and Buchanan, there was Jackson, Grant and Polk
There was Cleveland and McKinley and the brave Jack Kennedy
And many more whose names have joined that goodly company
And they told us no Irish need apply!
Yes, they told us no Irish need apply!

You've heard about James Curley, that man of great renown

And Honey Fitz, who proved his worth as Mayor of Boston town
And Rose and Ted and Bob and Jack and all the Kennedy clan
And the noble John McCormack*, who is honored through the land
Did you know John Hancock's family came from the County Down?
And composer Victor Herbert, he was born in Dublin town
And the blood in Davy Crockett's veins was Irish through and through
And Connie Mack, the baseball great, well he was Irish too
The father of the navy, John Barry was his name
He was a gallant Irishman, from Wexford town he came
To the many Irish giants in the literary field
You can add F. Scott Fitzgerald and the great Eugene O'Neill
Whenever people talk about great service to mankind
No doubt, the name of Boston's Cardinal Cushing comes to mind
And Doctor Thomas Dooley should be leader of the van
His entire life was spent in helping out his fellow man
In the noble art of self-defence, as you'll already know
We had men like John L. Sullivan, who never feared a foe
And gentleman Jim Corbett was among the very best
Likewise the bold Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey and the rest
We're the men who built the railroads, we're the men who fought the wars
We're the men who manned the police force, we're the men who drove street cars
We're the men who formed your unions, we're the men who sang your songs
We're the men who filled your history and tried to right your wrongs

* John McCormack = the quintessential "Irish Tenor".

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Mar 15 01:27:14 AM
I called myself - with an agenda, to be sure "mixed race" on a few occasions. Really? Sure - my father was of English ancestry, my mother
a Slav. SCANDALOUS! People mock this - that's not mixed race! Slavs and English are both
White! Well, when they married it was a mixed marriage - 1945. What does that tell us about
what we think of as "mixed marriages" now? That in a few decades, the young people will look
at their elders, uncomprehending, unable to understand how anyone could think of their two
parents as being somehow different from each other.
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chmood pixxer
Mar 15 09:26:10 AM
Irish sharecropper x English slaver, here
...and a scandal that got my grandmother disowned
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Mar 15 05:39:26 AM
If human beings were logical and if they were
also inherently moral then there would never be a Black Man or a Jewish Man or an Irish Man
or Any Woman in todays Republican Party.

And there never would have been any Jews in the Nazi Party in the thirties.
But there were and there are.
There either is no God or he or she is certainly not held in any respect any more and maybe
never really was.
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Mar 15 06:33:00 AM
Race Is Not A Social Construct, Bigotry Is
There are no black and white races. That is racism, not biology.
When Darwin wrote about races of butterflies and even plants, he had something entirely
different in mind than the bigotry of Charles Murray.
Caucasian is a true race but it is not white. Most caucasians have very dark skins, e.g. natives
of South Asia.
The bigots in the FDA do enormous harm by confusing Caucasian with white as do social
Doctors typically do not even bother looking for the Caucasian Disease, cystic fibrosis, in
children with very dark skins.
Hey, do you know about the Celtic Curse, colloquially known as iron overload?
Irish should avoid Guinness, which is loaded with iron. How would you like to announce that
in a Dublin pub?
BTW the hated English also carry the mutation though not the superior culture. :-)
Ah well stick with your bigoted expressions as you will. You obviously are not a bad person,
just a mite confused.
Best, Terry

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Chauncey DeVega terryhallinan
Mar 15 04:04:34 PM
race and racism were invented categories that
are codependent with one another in the modern era. There is a great book Racism a History
that sketches this out. Very short and accessible. It also does a great job of connecting antisemitism to modern racism. The BBC series Racism a History would also be helpful.
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terryhallinan Chauncey DeVega
Mar 15 05:46:54 PM
Darwin described a race of butterflies. Was that racism?
If only caucasians are vulnerable to the caucasian disease, what name would you like to
substitute for this vulnerable subgroup of people? "White" doesn't fit because most caucasians
are not remotely white. How about Euro-Indian-Northern African-Middle Eastern Nonrace?
Denial of science is very bad no matter its source.
It is a cause of enormous loss of life and treasure.
I suggest a bit of biology and anthropology untainted by racism might be rewarding instead of
just listening to and singing with the chorus of dissemblers that twist language to fit their
Race and racism are polar opposites - as different as astronomy and astrology. Choose
whichever side you like.
Best, Terry
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Chauncey DeVega terryhallinan
Mar 16 06:32:59 AM
study this comment folks
You will be rewarded greatly. I mean that. Know thy enemy.
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terryhallinan Chauncey DeVega
Mar 16 08:35:13 AM
My Son's Transylvanian Girlfriend Saw Herself
quite well in our mirrors, contrary to popular notions.
It's the rest of us that have a problem.
Best, Terry
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Mar 15 07:04:07 AM
Well researced and referenced, great analysis
A penetrating expos that unmasks Ryan's thinly constructed faade. The inclusion of the
historical context was nicely done.
There are a few questions about it I had, though.
...African-Americans (a group of people who quite literally built the United States...

I fully sympathize with the sentiment, but do you think this statement is wholly accurate?
...leading American eugenicists and race scientists such as Madison Grantthe author of the
infamous tract The Passing of the Great Raceobserved:
Is not the blocked passage referenced actually attributed "as Peter Quinn notes" in your source?
Given that the passage you used contains mostly Quinn's words and analysis, and Quinn is
already giving Grant credit for the quotes, shouldn't that be the proper attribution here also?
(By the way, the colon/dash in that blocked quote should be a quotation mark/dash.)
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Chauncey DeVega wilywascal
Mar 15 04:09:22 PM
I appreciate the grammar policing, more
substantive point is that black American human chattel had many (hundreds globally?) trillions
of dollars in stolen labor taken from them. This is most current number as computed by
economists. The lawsuit by Afro-Caribbean nations against European colonialists for
reparations also has some good metrics too.
Here are some other metrics if you are so inclined:
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wilywascal Chauncey DeVega
Mar 15 08:52:31 PM
How do you put a price tag on something like that?
I don't think you truly can. But I still don't know if that statement is wholly accurate. The
United States was still being built after slavery ended, unless one were to set some arbitrary

date. Neither should the contributions of others be dismissed out of hand, including other
minorities that were exploited.
I only point out grammar errors and typos for diaries, and only those where I figure the authors
would want to present themselves well.
I pointed out the attribution error because reading the passage was incongruous and somewhat
confusing with the lead in provided, and because I think most authors would want to properly
and correctly give credit where credit is due.
In any case, I liked the diary, and the intent was to be helpful.
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Chauncey DeVega wilywascal
Mar 16 12:56:58 AM
understood. read the articles and see how
economists make do such metrics. Either way the amounts are unbelievable--esp. considering
how black slaves were the single largest "capital" good in the country at the time.
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wilywascal Chauncey DeVega
Mar 16 02:56:28 AM
I actually did.
Even though the numbers can vary widely depending on what basis are being used for the
metrics, I'm quite willing to accept the estimates. However, besides those problems already
pointed out, another is that one needs the corresponding figures for the rest of the population to
make any kind of judgments like the one you made. And if those figures are more than zero
(and they would be substantial), then it can't be wholly true. Think of it this way: how much
money would America owe Native Americans? How much the Asian/Latino laborers who
were/are exploited? Their contributions shouldn't be overlooked.

Someone recently asserted that African-Americans make up the backbone of the Democratic
party, but provided no evidence to substantiate such a claim. Viewed from a narrow
perspective, that might be made true, but from a broader perspective, the backbone is actually
much more diverse, and making such a claim is exclusionary in failing to recognize the
contributions of others.
To reiterate, I fully understand the sentiments being expressed, which I fully agree with--and I
don't want to diminish them--but at the same time logic informs me such claims aren't wholly
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Chauncey DeVega wilywascal
Mar 16 04:07:06 AM
one claim need not exclude the other about
a people uniquely subjected to human chattel slavery. And whose labor was so valuable a civil
war was fought to monopolize and secure it.
Your claims are veering a bit too close for my taste to those who want to argue about serfs or
the white laboring class having it easier than black slaves based on daily calorie counts. I am
not saying you are of the school that would use such claims in order to minimize black
suffering. It just seems a bit too close to that school of thought for me to want to engage such
types of arguments.
Foner and others have written and spoken a great deal about black slaves being the number one
capital good and the trillions of dollars in stolen labor in contemporary terms. I will trust their
preeminent judgement and expertise.
Here you wrote : "Someone recently asserted that African-Americans make up the backbone of
the Democratic party, but provided no evidence to substantiate such a claim."
Voting data substantiates the unique and long standing relationship that black folks have w. the
party. I think some, myself included, would have our alarms raised by what could be read as an
effort to minimize black folks accomplishments in the service of some claim to a liberal and
facile type of "inclusion".

When one minimizes black folks' unique accomplishments and how our labor and the Black
Freedom struggle were gifts--unrepaid by the way--to all Americans I take a step back...way
Perhaps others will continue the conversation with you.
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wilywascal Chauncey DeVega
Mar 16 07:26:24 AM
Well, that's kind of the problem
with trying to have an honest discussion on these subjects without getting applied some nasty
label, no matter how careful one is to avoid giving the wrong impression. As someone who has
fought against race-baiting, racism, or bigotry in any form their entire life, it is always
distressing to see this, as it can prevent needed dialogue and the free exchange of ideas. I see
the same problem with supporters of Palestinian rights or critics of Israel, where false
allegations of anti-Semitism to silence them are like the boy who cried wolf too often. That's a
real shame, as cheapening the term in such a manner only works to obscure the legitimate
culprits and a very real problem that still persists to this day.
It's ironic, because the point wasn't to diminish, ignore, or dismiss the suffering or
accomplishment of African-Americans in any way. It was that the suffering and
accomplishments of others shouldn't be diminished, ignored, or dismissed. African-Americans
didn't build this country on their own. A great many people who weren't African-Americans
paid the ultimate price for ending slavery. With the activism and support of a great many
people who weren't African-Americans, civil rights legislation was passed. The Democratic
Party is a rainbow coalition, and I would equally disagree with those who would attempt to say
its backbone is made up of Caucasians, even though that is by far its largest racial bloc. I don't
find it wholly accurate when applying a racial lens to define such terms, as it can do a
disservice to the truth, and it may diminish, dismiss, or ignore the contributions of others.
To me, people are people, no matter what their race, gender, creed, nationality or sexual
orientation. Our nation is guilty of a great many sins, but, to me, its treatment of indigenous
peoples and African-Americans are the greatest; a perpetual and eternal stain upon it.

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Chauncey DeVega wilywascal
Mar 16 03:40:41 PM
you are digging the ditch for yourself even
you seem sincere. thus, i will try again. what you are offering up is very close to "liberal
racism". if that is not your intent. rethink your need to diminish the accomplishments of others,
esp. when such a move is not necessary, needed, or welcome in this context.
you remind me of someone attending a talk on african-americans who self manumitted and
took their freedom where a white person in the audience stands up and asks the presenter,
"what about the white people who helped!"
bad look. said person embarrassed themselves because they had a need to find some goodness
in people who look like them in order to undercut the narrative. ego. totally.
There is some real white privilege and the white racial frame is at work and operative in your
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wilywascal Chauncey DeVega
Mar 16 07:24:24 PM
I see you edited the lead in to the quote
And that's great. But you're still mischaracterizing me and my position. And you're attacking
me, not the arguments.
You're not making the case that African-Americans "quite literally built the United States." I
questioned whether that claim is wholly accurate. I argued, "Neither should the contributions
of others be dismissed out of hand, including other minorities that were exploited." You failed
to demonstrate how your claim is not doing that. Instead, you turned that around on its head to

make the specious argument that I am diminishing the accomplishments of African-Americans,

when, in fact, I am doing no such thing.
You made the initial claim, and the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not
those questioning its accuracy. The links to the figures you provide were accepted as factual,
but they only provide monetary figures for one group, and nothing is provided for the monetary
values for the labor of all the other groups. The very fact that there would have to be such
figures for the other groups actually disproves that African-Americans "quite literally built the
United States." Your claim leaves no room to allow any credit whatsoever for any other group.
Neither is any acknowledgment given that the United States was built on the genocide/ethnic
cleansing/decimation of, and theft of lands from, the indigenous peoples who resided here for
many centuries.
This isn't about "finding some goodness in people who look like them," or "white privilege," or
"the white racial frame," or "liberal racism," or "white people who helped." I would strongly
caution you against making any erroneous presumptions about people you know nothing about.
The only thing this is about is questioning the accuracy of your claim. If you can't prove it,
that's fine. If that is merely your opinion, that's fine. But, either way, it shouldn't be used as an
excuse to make slanderous insinuations.
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Chauncey DeVega wilywascal
Mar 16 09:12:47 PM
last try. really. you are very
mired in the white racial frame. i don't think you even realize how what you are doing is
My claim isn't exclusive to black folks. But were African-Americans, a slave labor force, the
competitive advantage, a source of work, and built, yes, quite literally the public infrastructure,
public buildings, etc. etc. etc. in the U.S.?
Damn straight. Did the transatlantic slave trade create the modern consumer economy. Yes.
"I would strongly caution you against making any erroneous presumptions about people you
know nothing about."

I judge you by your comments and claims. See my above examples. You can read those links
fairly, look for Foner's comments on the value of slaves as the number 1 capital good in the
U.S., or honestly reflect on the well spring of your need to insert a narrative that diminishes the
contributions of black folks w. a version of liberal racism operating under some faux
"diversity" umbrella.
I stand by my observation that you seem like you would be disruptive in a discussion or lecture
about black self-manumission, raising your hand and demanding to hear about white people.
Why is that?
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wilywascal Chauncey DeVega
Mar 17 03:30:16 AM
You're finally admitting it isn't wholly accurate
when you make this clarification:
My claim isn't exclusive to black folks.
Even though that isn't reflected anywhere in the words of your claim, nor has been alluded to
or implied heretofore, I willingly accept that clarification as your intent.
While I questioned your characterization, it was not to dispute that slavery and continued
exploitation of African-Americans contributed enormously to the wealth and development of
the U.S. Moreover, I don't question that America is deeply indebted to both African-Americans
and Native Americans. I would also agree that the transatlantic slave trade was a major
instrument in creating the modern world economy.
While it is unfortunate that you chose to misconstrue things, your observations, allegations,
and examples don't apply to me, nor concern me. I do think those things can be unconducive to
fostering open dialogue, however.
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Chauncey DeVega wilywascal

Mar 17 03:54:58 AM
sigh, you still don't get it.
The white racial frame is one hell of a drug.
The power of selective editing:
"My claim isn't exclusive to black folks. But were African-Americans, a slave labor force, the
competitive advantage, a source of work, and built, yes, quite literally the public infrastructure,
public buildings, etc. etc. etc. in the U.S.?"
Liberal racism is very very very real. In many ways, far more dangerous than conservative
racism...which is why I continued with this dialogue so that others will hopefully learn from it.
There are many people who are deeply invested in diminishing the accomplishments and
struggles and triumphs of black people. Their strategy? What are seemingly simply and
"innocent questions" such as "what about insert group?"
Right-wing white supremacists do this by overtly dismissing the Black Freedom Struggle and
the reality of white racism. Liberal racists do this by an appeal to "diversity" and "inclusion".
Thank you wily. You were very helpful in proving my point.
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wilywascal Chauncey DeVega
Mar 17 04:50:54 AM
Oh, I get it alright.
The claim is exclusive, except when needing proof it isn't, but then it is again. Makes perfect
sense to me. For those it doesn't, they're racist.
Not so sure I want to go down that rabbit hole, though.
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Mar 15 11:15:29 AM
Re: Paul Ryan
"He is intellectually dishonest; "
Seems to be a lot of that going around.
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Mar 15 11:27:34 AM
Being a pale Irish-American,
I find the historical notion of a sliding scale of "whiteness" very sad and more than a little
I've read about the prejudice the Irish immigrants faced in America. I also learned that Ireland
was a net exporter of food during the famine to supply the not-so-invisible hand of English
markets. That surprised me when I read it, but it shouldn't have. As shown by the recent food
stamp cuts, starving people to make money is still an objective for so-called "free market"
Personally, I think any Irishman who was worth a crap wouldn't perpetuate these old, sad,
racist notions. But then Ryan, with his childish Ayn Rand-inspired notions, isn't much of an
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Mar 15 11:56:40 AM
Reading this article is troubling, in that it once

again brings to the forefront the issue of skin color. And how many millions have been
murdered over the centuries because theirs happened NOT to be en vogue when they were in
the wrong place at the "right" time. Although we love to look upon ourselves as enlightened
and sophisticated, we must remember that we - The Human Race - is only as good a team as
our worst and weakest member (Paul Lyin' et al). This can be rather depressing. But it does
show us the type and amount of work we still have to do to eliminate ignorance and hatred and
bigotry to the fullest extent possible. Go to the polls every November and whenever your state
has a special election. That is a great starting point, especially for the apathetic who decided a
long time ago that their votes won't matter.
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Mar 15 02:25:02 PM
We Mustn't Forget...
...David Huddleston's spot-on remark in Mel Brooks' BLAZING SADDLES:
"All right, we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks--BUT WE DON'T WANT THE
Few people today realize the historic truth behind that joke.
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Mar 15 02:32:12 PM
Once again
a republican proving how ugly and despicable they all are. Paul Ryan like all republicans is
ugly in thought and speech. He either speaks his usual habitual republican lies or his ugly
republican dogma of hating everything not white. What a disgusting little lying republican
twerp he is.
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Mar 15 03:03:46 PM
African-Americans were demonized by officials
in northern states after the Civil War. There were pamphlets warning against them as a
criminal class and the same pamphleteers warned against Jews, Irish, Italians, eastern
Europeans, etc.
In the South, the white overseers were often those released from British prisons and prisons in
British colonies. I suppose their attitude was relief at being only indentured servants and
"better than" the slaves.
Self-righteousness, needing to feel better than someone else for who they are at the expense of
those people or persons is and has been an American epidemic. It has reached epic proportions
recently and is practically a cult of imagined victimization shared by billionaires, faux
Christians, angry old white guys and their submissive (and bitchy at the same time) wives. It
reeks of jealousy and envy while at the same time says, "I've got mine, f-you AND I've got
mine because I am better than you." The fact that some self-righteous a-hole got his or hers
might be due to the favorable structure of politics, society, tax law, etc. for his/her group
which, at the same time, does not hold them accountable for having benefitted on the backs of
To the billionaires, the Ryans, the neo-cons, the corporatist Democrats, the uber-religious, etc.:
Don't piss down my neck and tell me you are creating rain to break the drought.
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Gerald Sutliff
Mar 15 03:06:42 PM
When were Irish not white?

Great rant that.

The argument advances, yet again, that humans seem to have an inherent need to "be better"
than others. We need a major DNA fix if we are survive.
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BeninSC Gerald Sutliff
Mar 15 10:04:19 PM
I agree a 'fix' is needed, but if we have to wait
for DNA to do it, it may take more generations than we have.
We have to use our hearts, our minds and our human sentience to alter our cultural and political
DNA in the very short term.
We could use your help with the fight, Gerald. Will you help us?
Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team . If you have any questions about how to
participate here, you can learn more at theKnowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources
Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your
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terryhallinan Gerald Sutliff
Mar 16 08:11:32 AM
"White men trying to be Irish" were
a matter of contempt for my Irish father. Irish born in this country were not Irish at all. Hell,
they didn't even speak the language. :-) I used to have to interpret often for my wife unable to
get through the heavy brogue.
Ashkenazi [European] Jews are the latest cultural group to turn white despite lacking the
oversize Neanderthal skulls of "real" Europeans :-) while Arabs and perhaps some Spanish
speakers have turned off-color.

If you want to understand bigotry, you need to turn to the social sciences rather than oldfashioned science like biology. Science deals with things like genetics that contradict racist
notions of biology.
Best, Terry
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Mar 15 04:00:10 PM
The IQ test was standardized in a population of people in the USA with a Nordic background.
Furthermore, it does not test creativity, imagination, drive, and many other measures for
evaluating cognition. Furthermore, it is heavily biased against people of various ethnic,
cultural, and experiential groups. For example we could test the IQ's of an Australian
Aboriginal and Mr Ryan, throw them into the Australian outback then see if the IQ score has
any impact on survival. Do you think?
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Mar 15 04:06:40 PM
Thanks for the info: I'd noted in reading about slavery & racial history that there seemed to be
significant links (including marriages) between Irish and Africans in early America, but didn't
know that Irish had also been slaves in the Americas.
My Irish heritage is one reason I'm strongly in favor of equality for all people: it could also
come from having been asked by classmates at the elite university I attended (on scholarship)

if they could go home with me at breaks "to see how the lower classes live". This kind of
ignorance had a significant part in moving me to the left politically.
That said, people like Paul Ryan (and unfortunately, most of our current legislators, civic
leaders and the power structure generally) are genuinely--if to some extent willfully--ignorant
of how we NOCD ("not our class, dear") citizens live and what our needs, wants, and abilities
are. To call anyone with this mindset an "intellectual" is laughable. Intellectuals--and more
importantly, potential intellectuals--can come from any race or class, but they have to actually
use their intelligence to weigh information and separate truth from fantasy or prejudice. (In the
words of my dad, whose family could only afford to send him through 6th grade--he skipped
1st grade so he & his older brother could share a book--"Use your head for something besides a
I would argue that the GOP should more accurately use the name of a former party, the KnowNothings--except that they profess to know so many things that are patently untrue and/or
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BeninSC jcdevildog
Mar 15 09:56:59 PM
Yes, jcdd, you have a clear appreciation of the
Thank you for this insightful comment!
Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team . If you have any questions about how to
participate here, you can learn more at theKnowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources
Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your
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Mar 15 04:07:40 PM
I wonder
how Mr Ryan can follow the teachings of Ayn Rand and the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth at
the same time.
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Vic George 2013 RichardB
Mar 15 09:02:21 PM
...he would have to ignore what Jesus said about following two masters, that he would love the
one and hate the other, or hold onto the one and despise the other. You can't have pure
Christianity if you have to mix it with other beliefs.
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Mar 15 04:21:00 PM
I remember seeing a political cartoon
from the late 1800's. It showed "Lady Liberty" with a big wooden spoon, stirring a "melting
pot" filled with just about every racial stereotype one can imagine. Sitting on the lip of the pot,
knife in one hand, and a bottle in the other, was a stereotypical Irishman. Apparently my
ancestors were not assimilating well.
My own last name, though now considered Irish, apparently originated as a slur the French
used towards the poor. My ancestors sought out Ireland as a refuge fairly early on.
Now there's nowhere left to run.
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terryhallinan LouisWu
Mar 16 08:27:04 AM
Ships from Ireland filled with dead and dying
during the Irish Potato Famine which off-loaded diseased survivors did not endear the Irish to
the natives.
Can be a trial to assimilate under such conditions.
Now there's nowhere left to run.
There never was.
Angela's Ashes was a huge hit among American-born Irish Catholics but not so much among
my kin back in Ireland. Only an Irishman could make a comedy of such tragedy but its savage
bite did not do well even among people known for their self-deprecating humor.
Best, Terry
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Mar 15 05:01:19 PM
No surprise
Is anyone surprised? My only surprise is that they haven't extended this to light-skinned
Hispanics already. Notice that in Latin American nations now, the elite are light skinned, the
poor are dark. With rates of intermarriage and the concept of assimilationism, this wouldn't be
a stretch for a Republican candidate to attempt.
Maybe they're waiting on George P. Bush.... Ted Cruz and/or Marco Rubio could try now if
they'd ever embrace or acknowledge their Hispanic heritage.

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Mar 15 05:33:07 PM
We think of Ghettos as a place for urban blacks.
When I was raised in a NE City we had many ghettos: We had Irish, Italian, Poles, Greek and
whatever nationally was brought over on a boat to work in a manufacturing company. Each
had a moderate to large manufacturing plant, meat processer or rail line head. My wife was
raised in a town outside Phila that had 4 Catholic Churches, one for each ethnic group.
Each had a neighborhood name. They congregated together because of language, they could
speak to their neighbors in their mother tongue and let the new generation learn English. The
Ghettos were the incubator of today's successes while retaining their ethnic heritage.
People like Ryan are simply ignorant of what a Ghetto was and only sees Economic Ghettos in
urban cities. Does this person wants to be a leader of this Nation? Good God I hope he never
makes it.
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Mar 15 07:08:08 PM
What many people don't know
is how much and how quickly the Irish assimilated and became part of the American melting
pot. As a family historian with over two decades spent researching and learning about the soup
we Americans have become, as far as it concerns nationalities, the Irish and Germans
permeated our bloodlines much more quickly than any other nationalities. Of white Americans
in this country who can count three or more generations here, over 75% have at least a little
Irish and/or German heritage. When you look at different segments of our country, as we
settled farther and farther west, you find more whites with at least 50% of that mix to be
common. Many southern and western states have white populations that are a mix of
German/Irish and whatever the predominant nationality associated with the settlement of that

area (Scottish in states like Kentucky, Tennessee, the Carolina's, etc., and the Nordic
nationalities in the western states, such as Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Nebraska, etc.).
There is also the little recognized fact of what are known as "the dark whites", especially in the
south, where segments of the white population have African American blood in their personal
histories. After the Civil War many of the light skinned ex-slaves who could "pass" for white
married whites and integrated many southern families without their knowledge. These families,
many who tout their "pure anglo-saxon heritage", would probably be appalled at how prevalent
the practice was if they were truthful about their family histories.
Of course Repubs either choose to remain unaware of these facts or quietly pretend they don't
exist, since it would sully their message of intolerance and hate.
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Mar 15 07:23:08 PM
Oh come now...
Ryan hasn't become a Democrat, has he?
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Vic George 2013
Mar 15 08:55:16 PM
Hurray, white people also hate their own
Speaking as a white person myself, it's amazingly hypocritical how white people, who are
supposed to be this great "master race brotherhood of Euro-Caucasianness", have hated their
own and found reasons (or should I say excuses through pseudo-science) to hate other groups
of white people like the Irish. It's too bad this is a lesson that's forgotten with people like Paul

Ryan, but you know what they say, people who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat
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Mar 15 09:09:39 PM
Support economy at home
Maybe this is a good place to ask for everyone's help with my petition, :cut military spending
and re-invest in America
Subject: Cut military spending and re-invest in America's Infrastructure
Our elected officials have neglected our infrastructure far to long. Continuing to do nothing
will lead to a catastrophic economic failure in the near future. We spend more on our military
than the next five biggest military nations combined. We can maintain our military superiority
and still cut spending, all we need is leaders to recognize that this "corporate welfare" needs to
That's why I created a petition to The United States House of Representatives, The United
States Senate, and President Barack Obama, which says:
"America's infrastructure is vital to our economic growth and future. The current state of our
infrastructure has been graded a "D" by engineering groups around the country. Cut military
spending and re-invest in our aging infrastructure, creating tens of thousands of jobs and
preserving our future. "
Will you sign this petition? Click here:
's infrastructure". Here is the link, I hope you will support it and share it with as many people
as you can. Now is the time to put our needs here at home first.
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Mar 16 12:03:46 AM
19th century british attitude toward the Irish is
well exemplified in Kingsley's Water Babies: "And then Dennis will look up at you with his
handsome, sly, soft, sleepy, good-natured, untrustable, Irish gray eye, and answer with the
prettiest smile:
Shure, and didnt I think your honour would like a pleasant answer?
So you must not trust Dennis, because he is in the habit of giving pleasant answers: but, instead
of being angry with him, you must remember that he is a poor Paddy, and knows no better; so
you must just burst out laughing; and then he will burst out laughing too, and slave for you,
and trot about after you, and show you good sport if he canfor he is an affectionate fellow,
and as fond of sport as you areand if he cant, tell you fibs instead, a hundred an hour; and
wonder all the while why poor ould Ireland does not prosper like England and Scotland, and
some other places, where folk have taken up a ridiculous fancy that honesty is the best policy."
among many like references expounding on the stupidity drunkenness and dishonesty of the
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kestrel sparhawk
Mar 16 01:07:44 AM
Really beautiful
Summary of the way "race" works as a construct which shifts over time but always manages to
act as a justification for oppression. Songs like "No Irish Need Apply"should have kept the
history of that alive for people like Ryan, but those who will not learn from history...
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Mar 16 01:32:27 AM
White Underclass
Much of the white American underclass in places like Oklahoma and West Virginia are Irish or
Irish German mix.
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Mar 16 02:22:44 AM
This all sounds very much like Nazi Germany;
give the people someone to hate to allow the new government to succeed. They should hope it
doesn't backfire.
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Ebro fjb
Mar 17 02:25:34 AM
So did
Otto Von Bismarck in creating Germany by declaring war on France. Also keep that in mind
when you associate 'Germans' with the Irish. I assume you mean Bavarians ie German
Catholics, not Lutherans such as Prussians.
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paradise50 Ebro
Mar 17 11:41:04 AM gets complicated, doesn't it?...

Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team . If you have any questions about how to
participate here, you can learn more at theKnowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources
Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your
Recommended 0 times

Tex Arcana
Mar 16 02:32:11 AM
Paul Ryan...
...deserves a retroactive abortion.
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Mar 16 11:52:19 AM
It's not that complicated.
Paul Ryan's behavior is better explained by the universal and long-standing instincts of human
nature. Past prejudices and their scholarly supporters and detractors - including this article - are
merely additional manifestations of this.
He is a greedy, hypocrite and opportunist of which all races, colors and cultures have ample
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Mar 16 12:41:12 PM
Your Description of Ryan:
"He is intellectually dishonest; ..."

His so-called embrace of Ayn Rand seems more that he read the Cliff notes and decided that
espousing those concepts would help him to present an intellectual demeanor.
In actual fact, everything that issues forth from his brain belies the possibility of Paul Ryan
being an intellectual of any sort.
Unfortunately, those who support him and his ilk, and vote for the GOP and TP, are what
were, during the recent Presidential Election, calleduninformed voters. The saddest part of
this is that those folks have no intention of informing themselves, as that would mean they
might have to admit they have been wrong for so many years.
As the saying goes, "More's the pity!"
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Punditus Maximus
Mar 16 12:46:07 PM
Conservatism is racism.
There is no such thing as a non-racist conservative.
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Mar 16 12:50:03 PM
Misinformed White America
Another fine book in immigration is "Working Toward Whiteness: How America's Immigrants
Became White: The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs" by David R. Roediger.
Recommended 1 time

paradise50 hermit52
Mar 16 02:50:14 PM
...thanks for that book title...
Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team . If you have any questions about how to
participate here, you can learn more at theKnowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources
Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your
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Bartolome Medina de Balmoral
Mar 16 01:12:28 PM
Wow, never saw that harangue coming (eye-roll)...
Chauncey, in true America-centered racial, cultural and ethnic myopia you "went there".
"There" is the ever-handy, always-convenient, cheap-shot of who is white, not-white, notquite-white American view of all "others" on the planet.
First of all, NO ONE on this planet gives a damn about what Americans think about them and
even less about their racial-cultural-ethnic co-ordinates or identity.
The problem arises when we PERSIST in defining and assigning identity to others on the earth
when we sill haven't figured out:
1... what "black" is...let's not forget the abysmal stupidity of the "1-Drop Rul" which was
created by syphilitic, toothless, illiterate and non-science informed slave-owners who dreamed
up this stupidity to legally exclude their mulatto offspring from inheriting what their white
offspring would AND to increase their social and political prominence by adding to their slave
count. Only a moron with with a 1st-grade education or a PhD in a "discipline" as informed as
"Hip-Hop Studies" would even utter such nonsense.

2...that in the history of "man" as a species on the PLANET, there has never been a "Latino"
race, but in the US weACTUALLY entertain AND institutionalize such clap-trap and even
award PhD's to "intellectual" titans who write dissertations on such relevant topics as "The
History of Ass Tattoos in the Arizona State Penal/Penile Culture", when IN REALITY, there
are categorically "Latin-cultured" people who are of European OR Indigenous OR SubSaharan African "Black" origin OR Asian OR EVEN Middle Eastern ancestry.
3....and lest we forget the obscenity of classifying someone as "Native-American", "American
Indian" or "1st Nation" who is 1/256th "Indian".
So while you make many race-ripe "observations", I would suggest you look at a clown like
Ryan for the intellectually-limited, culturally-ignorant, provincial and embarrassing, midwestern buffoon that he is.
He (very sadly) has forgotten his own history of poverty, familial dysfunction and personal
suffering which is REALLY where his character flaws come from, NOT from his racial
background....NOT AT ALL!
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Mar 17 02:19:57 AM
I don't know if this has been said, too many
comments to read, but the pre-Vatican II catholic church had some serious strikes against it.
Most of all, they preached against democracy. And secondly, while many in this country don't
consider this a strike, but I do not see the fun or any other reason for drunkeness. The crime
rate actually went up with catholic immigration as a result of their lax alcohol policies. It
therefore doesn't surprise me that people thought they couldn't (or shouldn't) assimilate. Bigots
can persecute each other, you know.
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Tigger Too
Mar 17 03:12:05 AM
Hey, give Ryan some credit...

After racist intellectual Republican Rep. Paul Ryan made his racist comments at the recent
racist CPAC meeting, he's since gone on record as saying that his racist remarks weren't really
meant to sound racist. So, he's cleared up that misunderstanding about racism, right? RIGHT?
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Mar 17 11:29:47 AM
This is actually a step forward for the cons
Sad but it is. Back in 2012 Newt Gingrich said that inner city people were all criminals. Now
they're just lazy, which isn't as bad as being criminals so at least the cons are moving in the
right direction.
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Mar 17 05:58:36 PM
Wait, what?
So poor people receiving government benefits to the extent that they no longer would be
considered poor should, for the purpose of counting the poor, be considered poor?
Here's an idea, how about we all agree to quit moving the fucking goalposts. The poorest 10%
in the United States actually are in the top 80% in the world. What used to be arguments about
poverty are now navel-gazing contests about "income inequality". Why not focus on matters of
real importance, like the global economy as a whole, the climate, and government barriers to
Oh, right, those don't get you hard-ons electing fucking wife-beating tools (who,
coincidentally, will never be mentioned as part of the "war on women").

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Mar 18 09:06:00 PM
With a name like
Kevin Fitzpatrick, I blend right in. But my forehead hair IS NOT like Paulie's, thank gaud. He
a a racist and I detest and abhor him.