Beruflich Dokumente
Kultur Dokumente
COMMONS
Mr. CASGRAIN: I am ready to proceed with this motion; but the Minister of
Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster)
asked me to continue it until next Monday because lie was unable to attend tonight. I would, therefore, ask that it
stand.
Motion stands.
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
Mr. J. A. SEXSMITH (East Peterborough) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, in order
to give each voter an equal share in the representation, some system of proportional representation should be adopted, and that a speci.al
committee of this House should be forthwith
appointed, charged with an enquiry into the
different systems of proportional representation,
with a view to recommend one of these for
adoption.
APRIL 4, 1921
representation. I sincerely hope that some- elected.
The fiftY-seven Liberals scured
thng may be done in order that we rnay 133,566 votes, and the eight conservatives
secure in Canada a better electoral systemi 103,253. The average number of votes rethan we have at present. I trust this sub- quired to eleet one Conservative was
12,907,
ject, that bas to do with the national inter- while the average
number of votes to elect
est and that is something of much greatei,
importance than the success of any party, one Liberal was 2,344. Thus one Liberai
xnay be freely and f ully discussed from. an vote had the value of six Conservative votes.
Under proportional representation thirtyunbiased and non-partisan standpoint.
The chief evil of our present system le seven Liber'als would have been elected
that large and important sections of instead of fifty-seven and twenty-eight; Conopinion are left unrepresented, and the end servatives instead of eight.'
Take the election of 1904 in the saine
of ail political reformi should be to secure
Then llfty-four Liberals
to these important sections their due and great province.
fair share of representation in this House. were elected, and eleven Conservatives. The
In speaking of the single member mode of fifty-four Liberals secured 144,992 votes,
represenitation, I do not; think I can do bet- and the eleven Conservatives 111,550. The
ter than quota fromn one of the most out- average number Of votes require to elect
standing statesmen in Great Britain to-day, one Liberal was 2,636, and the average
the Right Hon. Arthur James Balfour. numnber of votes required to elect one ConSpeaking before the Scottish Conservative servative was 10,141. A Liberal vote had
the value of four Conservative votes. Under
Club, n Scotland, hie said:
proportional representation thirty-nine Lib1Everybody whoblas watched the actual course
erals would have been elected instead of
of a contested election in a constituency where
fiftY-four and twenty-six Conservativea
parties were evenly balanced knowe perfectly
,well the monstrous power whlch la given to a
instead of eleven.
very small minority to exact a pledge from
In that saine election of 1904 we find
the candidate, not that lie should support this
that in the Province of Nova Scotia 56,526
or that great policy, but that lie should heIp
their smal and particular interest.
Liberal votes were cast -and eighteen Lib1 know of nothing which ls more corrupting
eral members elected, and that-46,181 Conboth to the electors or to the elected than that
servative votes were cast, but flot; one memprocess, and, although 1 have fully seen the
,difficulties which attacli to what is commonly
ber was elected. In the same year pracknown as minority representation, it surely is
tically the samne condition obtained in the
an extraordinary criticism upon our exjstjng
province of British Columbia.
system that, whlle a emali handful of interested
people, can turn an election one way or the
In 1908 in the province of Quebec we
oDther on their own personal issue, huge minfind the resuits were very similar. The
orities like the mainority of the Unionjsts in
Liberals secured. 162,176 votes and elected
Scotland are utterly and grossly unrepresented.
54 members, while the Conservatives
We gi-ce every privilege to the little knot of
people in the individual constituencies: we ignore
secured 115,579 votes and elected il
the great mnass who under our existing systemn
members. The average number of votes
*flnd no representation at ai comparable ejther
required to eleet one Liberal was 3,003,
to their numerical strength or their public
-spirit or to any other quality which makes themn and the average number of votes
required
useiul, able and Independent citizens.
to elect one Conservative was 10,,144. One
Those are very strong words fromn one Liberal vote had the value of 3 Conserwho I arn sure every hion. membar of tbis vative votes. Under proportional repreHouse will regard as a great authority. I sentation 38 Liberals would 'have been
look upon his wrords as a very strong con- elected instead of 54 and 27 Conservatives
.damnation of our present single meniber instead of 11.
These examples sbuld be enough to
electoral systam.
.Looking over our alaction returna in this convince any man in this House that any
.ountry, I find that we have large majori- electoral sestem. that allows such a
ties grossly unreprasentad in this country. condition to prevail where it is impossible
I sbould like, if time permitted, to go over to elect a Parliament that will properly
ah the provinces of Canada and give to the reflect the opinion of ail the people, which
House the rasuits of alections during the is ne of the-main principles of responsible
Gvernment, cannot possibly make for the
last decade or two under our present syswelfare of our country, and I believe it
tem. In the province of Quebec, for instance,
is the duty of this Parliament, which is
in the general election of 1900, fifty-seven
Liberals and eight Consarvatives ware about to make a new redistribution of
seats, to see that such a condition should
97
R13VIsED EDIrION
1530
COMMONS
APRIL 4, 1921
1531
until now the masses have been clamouring jority of votes, they will retaliate and elect
for the extension of the franchise. Why, a governn'ent to run the country, and that
did they want the franchise? It was be- the people of the cities and towns. wilI
cause, in ail those years, there was a feel- have to, subinit. No. This is a great couning that the people aid not rule, and they try, stretching -from the Atlantic to the
believed that if they had the vote they Pacic, with millions of farmers, and rooni
would have sufficient power to control gov- for millions more, and millions of citizens
ernment, and would really have democracy. in the great and glorious cities of Canada,
The franchise has been extended until, at .of which we are ail proud, and room for
present, almost every aduit in the great more; and if the Agrarien party desire
British Empire has the vote. 'Yet, not- to serve the best interests of the country,
withstanding this universal application of then, instead of seeking to become the govthe principle, the people have been unable ernors of the -country, they should be wiilto control government sixfflciently to see ing to join hands with others in the directhat the different elements of the nation tion of affairs.
have a fair and equal share in the councils
If I had my way, I would dispense with.
of the country and, may I say particularly, ail parties, and that is not a conclusion.
in its inner councils.
which I have reached only to-day; it is.
A short time ago a thoughtful editorial probabiy some ten years since I saw the adappeared in the Ottawa Journal. It pointed visability of it. I would elect a Parliament;
out that from 1896 to the present day not of sensible Canadian citizens to come here
one farmer from the great province of and deal with the questions of the country
Ontario had ever been taken into the Cabi- on their merits, and not fromn any party
net; not one had ever been taken into the standp oint or party bias; and for the farminner councili of the nation. I ask, in ail ers to come as a separate class and say:
fairness and sincerity: Is there a man in "We are going to make an effort, if posthis House wlio could say that in that great sible, to seize the reins of po*er, and to
and important class in the province of govern the country," is an attitude which
Ontario one man could flot have been found I cannot support. When a man.elects to
with sufficient ability to warrant his in- become the represenitative of one ciass hie
clusion in the Cabinet? I say that there is then, to my mmnd, ceases to be a represenflot 'an honourable gentleman who would tative and becomes a delegate. Professor
dare stand up on the floor of Parliament John R. Commons, professor of political
and se aver. Yet flfty per cent, we may economy in the University of Wisconsin,
say, of the people of the province of has said "That one man of wealth has the
Ontario, so far as the inner councils of influence of a thousand farmers, storethe nation have been concerned, have been keepers and lebourers." Weil, with my ex-.
disfranchised. Wonder has been expressed perience I would be inclined to think thet
at the farmers organizing and going into in some instances you might muitiply bis
politics. Weil, Spencer says that seif-pre- estimate a thousand fold.
servation is the flrst law of nature, and I
We are living in a democwpatic age, an
look to my right to-night and see there age, I trust, of advancement, but a time
the nucleus of a farmers' party. I have of unrest-even dangerous unrest-a time
heard thait party vai'iously called the Agra- when people are dissatisfled with the old
rian party and the Farmers' party, and order of things. So many strange evils
there is not a man in this House who has have sprung into iife that one is bewildered.
more respect for the farmers or the agra- On the one hand we flnd unusual concenrians, by whichever naine you choose to tration of wealth in the control of a few;
cal them, than I have. There is no man on the other, a growing restlessness and
in this House who has fought the batties frantic attempts at organization on the
of the farmers longer and more strenuously part of the wage-earning class. I believe
than I have done, or who is more desirdus the Government should have an important
to see them get t14eir right and fair share place in solving these contradictions, and
in this country. But I must say that if I believe that the remedy lies in the adopthe Farmers' party of to-day aims at be- tion of a proportional representation system
coming the sole governors of the country, in elections.
then I cannot endorse any such ideal. If,
Let me quote what Lord Robert Cecil, an
in the past, -the people from the urban eminent man in public life in Great Britain,
centres have been governing, that is no says. At a luncheon beld in the House
reason or excuse for the farmers now to of Commons, London, -England, on Novsay that because they have perhaps a me- ember 3, 1920, Lord Robert Cecil, speak97
COMMONS
GOMMONS
1532
ing on proportional representation, uttered adopted forty years ago ip the British Isles,
a solution might have been found of the
the following words:
Irish problem. Our present system does not
representapropirtional
I am satisfieid, that
encourage unity of the Canadian people,
tion has never been more important that it is
which is so necessary for the well-being
at the present moment. We are faced ail over
the world by an attack on what may be called
and general advancement of our country.
the world order,-a general challenge and disLt rather encourages the opposite. At
whole
the
which
of
pute on the presupposition
time we find Quebe talking about
election
is
It
based.
is
society
and
civilization
our
of
Orange Toronto, and Toronto talking about
a time when democracy as a system of government and as a system of social organization is
French Quebec, which, I think, does not
going to be tested to its uttermost, and the
for unity. Does any man tell me that
make
be
wi.ll
democracy
expresses
machinery which
that mode of conducting elections is
overhauled by no friendly critics, to see whether
to the advantage of this country?
it really does justify the claim it makes. In this
country, we have for many years, been aware
Personally I cannot see it. In place
of a growing critioism of representative instituof
drawing our people closer together
some
that
know
We
tions as they actually exist.
we, at election time, indulge in picayune
of our most cherished institutions no longer
methods in a constituency where a man can
keep the position in the public reputation that
they did half a century ago, and the additional
use " the glad hand " and resort to all the
danger exists now, that not only are there
evils that may be attached to a corrupt electhere
but
those who criticise our institutions,
tion to try to secure his return. In a word
are those who desire definitely to set up a
different form and method of governing the
the idea seems to be "Anything to get votes."
country which many of us, at any rate, think
We have to acknowledge these things bewould lead us straight to anarchy.
cause we all realize that they take place.
It is a time when it boheves all of us who
Instead of talking in Montreal about Orange
believe in democracy and in stability to look
carefully at the foundations on which our instiToronto, and talking in Orange Toronto
tutions are based and to do our utmost to see
about French Quebec, we should, as some
that they really are based on the only foundaone has well said
tion on which democratic institutions can be
1532
I now wish to quote the opinion of another gentleman Mr. W. J. Tupper, K. C.,
APRIL 4, 1921
a Conservative member of the Manitoba
Legislature, who wrote:
In my opinion the test that proportional
representation underwent in this city during the
late provincial election, was successful. As I
understand the system, it ls Intended te give
representation to ail parties in proportion to
their numerical strength. The resuit of the late
election showed that the mlnority parties in the
representation In
City of Winnipeg 'received
accordance with their votlng strength. It however, did flot faveur independent candidates, as
you will have observed.
I may say that the success of the system
seems te me to depend upon the effcency of
those in control of the counting. We were
fortunate In this province to have exceptlonally
able men In charge and the result is, no doubt,
In a great measure due to them.
#
1533
13
1534
COMMONS
but that has been the result of our elections during the past year.
Say not it matters not to me
My brother's weal is his behoof,
For in this wondrous human web
If your life's warp, his life is woof.
Woven together are the threads
And you and he are in one loom
For good or ill, for sad or glad,
Your lives must share one common doom.
Then let the daily shuttle glide
Wound full of threads of kindly care
That life's great lengthening web may be
Not only strongly wrought but fai r.
(Qu'Appelle):
Mr. LEVI THOMSON
Mr. Speaker, the resolution before us, is to
my mind, well timed. The public is seriously
considering this question and is intensely
interested in it. It has received much
study and is receiving more study. Such
experience as we already have had in Canada with this system has been very satisfactory. I think the time for the introduction of the resolution is also well chosen because of what some people call the present
political unrest, but which J prefer to call a
political awakening.
People are doing their own thinking now
as they have never done before in the
world's history. There are extremists among
labourers and among advanced thinkers,
but we have always had extremists among
thinking men and women. We must decide
how we shall treat our extremists. In olden
days they had a way of their own-those
in authority adopted the plan of putting
extremists to death as the handiest and
most expeditious plan available; later on
the plan of imprisonment was substituted;
and in still later years Englishmen adopted
the plan of allowing the extremist to shout
himself hoarse in Hyde Park. The world
mildly applauded. the heroic action of the
Englishman, but hesitated about following
his example.
The world moves and the
extremist is no longer satisfied with being
allowed to air his view in the public parks.
He wishes to be given the opportunity of
expressing his views in the legislative halls
of his country, and the idea is gradually
gaining ground that where the extremist
has any considerable backing he should
have that opportunity, and that the only
safe course is to give it to him.
The best citizens are always drawn to-wards the under dog, and their sympathy
always goes out to those who appear to be
oppressed. They want to see every one
bave a chance, and the old plan of suppressing the extremist is no longer work[Mr. Sexsmith.]
APRIL 4,1921
1535
1535
APRIL 4, 1921
This surely is as it should be. I believe some days after the election-the votes
we should arrange that in ail our tities, at cast as first choice . were 42.5 per cent
least in those which are entitled to more Labour, 30.4 per cent Liberal, 13.7 per cent
than one representative, the constituencies Conservative, and 13.4 per cent Indepenshould be grouped together and each elector dent. You will notice that the Independents
should only hiave one first vote, being en- had nearly as many votes as the Consertitled to give second and further choices, vatives, but it mnust be remembered that
where necessary, to other candidates. This the Conservative group was one group
would enable any group of people to obtain where as among the Independents there
representation, provided they are suffi- were anywhere from six to eleven groups,
ciently strong to be entitled to representa- s0 to speak; there were eleven candidates.
tion. In time, as the plan is worked out, As a result of the voting, four Labour
it may be well to provide for the grouping candidates, four Liberals and two Consertogether of a considerable portion of thickly vatives *Iere elected. It might be said that
peopled rural sections under the same plan. only one Conservative and one Independent
Possibly at present it might be well to try should have been elected, gnd perhaps,
it out in cities where it can best be worked another Labour candidate. But I have given
out, and in rural communities where we a reason why the Independents were not
have only one member for each constituency elected-it is simple enough: because they
we should have provision for a second choice were a lot of dissociated groups; none of
where there are more than two candidates. them had sufficient backing among the
The hon, gentleman who nioved this people of Winnipeg to entitle them to
resolution has suggested that a committee represent the people of Winnipeg. The
should be appointed o go into the matter. Conservatives had sufficient backing; they
That is certainly the proper course. There had that whole group of 13.7 per cent. Had
is no need of going into the details here anyone known the total number of Conseror of elaborating any argument as to how vative, Liberal and Labour votes and
the plan should be worked out. I have no endeavoured to give to each group the
doubt that a committee would be prepared representation to which it was intitled, he
to consider aIl phases of the question, flot could not have donc it more fairly than
only the matter of proportional represent- was the case as the result of this election
ation in grouped constituencies, if you by -proportional representation. It is true
like'to use the terrn, but also the matter that there were less votes per member for
of transferable votes in single constituen- Conservatives than in the case of any other
cies.
group'and considerably more votes per
The hon. gentleman has said something member for Labour than for any other.
with regard to the experiment in Manitoba. Had they elected, say, one more Labour
1 suppose the House generally is aware candidate and one less Conservative, the
that in the last local election in Manitoba inequality would have been very much
provision was made for the working out of greater. As it is at present, your have about
proportional represeitation in the city of one Labour representative for a little over
Winnipeg. The city was granted ten ten per cent of the vote and one Conserrepresentatives aid they were elected under vative representative for a little less than
proportional representation. In the country seven per cent of the vote. Had you changed
nothing of the kind was provided; no provi- that, had there been one more Labour
sion was made for transferable votes. Now, member and one less Conservative member,
let us see how the different plans- worked the disparity would be stili greater. Labour
out. 1 refer again to the Free Press Qf July would have one representative for a little
5 last. The three groups which had any large over eight per cent, and the Conservatives
representation in Winnipeg were Labour, would have one for thirteen and a haf
Liberal and Conservative. Besides. the or nearly fourteen per cent. So you see a
candidates for these groups there were fairer result could not have been obtained
eleven Independent
candidates,
each amongst the parties.
representing, I suppose, some new idea of
We corne to the other question of transhis own. The fear is sometimes expressed ferable votes in single constituencies, and
that some faddist or other might by means there is little enlightenment to be thrown
of this plan be elected to Parliament, but on that by the Manitoba situation. In
the Winnipeg experiment does not; justify Manitoba no provision was made in the
any idea of that kind. In Winnipeg, provincial election for transferable votes
according to the Free Press figures, which, in single constituencies. As is hiable to, be
no douht, are correct-they were published the case in Canada for some tinie at least,
COMMONS
there were more than the two old groups;
there were additional groups. I have from
the Canadian Nation figures given of the
results in some of those constituencies,
which figures show that many of the
elected representatives were minority candidates. It is not, however, fair to say
of those men that they were not entitled
to their seats, because they obtained the
seats under the plan that was established,
the only plan on which they could be candidates. No blame, therefore, attaches to
them; the blame is on the system. In
Brandon, the Labour candidate secured
election by 2,007 votes, while '2,648 votes
were cast against him for the two nonLabour candidates, so that he was a minority candidate. In the electoral division of
Emerson 989 votes elected a Farmer representative,' while 1,681 Liberal and Conservative votes were ineffective. In Manitou
constituency 1,085 votes elected a Conservative candidate, while 1,927 votes for Liberal and Farmer candidates were wasted,
or nearly double the number. In Rockwood the elected candidate obtained 978
votes, rendering ineffective the 977 votes,
or one vote less, for another candidate,
and 638 votes for a third candidate. That
is, the elected candidate received only 978
votes, while 1,615 votes were cast against
him. As I have said, there is no fault
attaching to the candidates in that case;
they obtained their election under the only
system which was available.
We have at present in this House three
members elected from constituencies in Ontario against whom the taunt is sometimes hurled that they are minority representatives. The fact that they are minority
representatives is not any fault of theirs;
it is the fault of the people generally and
the fault of this House and of our plan
of election. They offered themselves as
candidates under the only system available,
and they were duly elected under that system. It is very unfair to them that any
one should be in a position to claim that
they are minority representatives. If we
wish to avoid the possibility or even probability of minority representatives in this
House, we must adopt the principle of
allowing the elector more than one choice,
that is, where there is more than one candidate. It is quite plain that, for some
time at least, we shall, in our politics, be
divided into groups, and we should make
our electoral machinery suit changed conditions. There is very little doubt that in the
next election three-cornered and even four
and five-cornered fights in single constituencies will take place, and it is our duty
[Mr. Thomson.]
before the next election to provide legislation which will properly meet changed
conditions and enable the electors to have
complete say as to who shall represent
them.
We hear the complaint made by leaders
of the present Opposition that the qpponents of the Government will be divided and
will be fighting against one another in such
a way as to weaken the effect of anything
they decide to do. On the other hand we
hear complaints from leaders and supporters on the Government side that there is
danger of unfair understandings and arrangements amongst the leaders of the
Opposition groups, and that this will militate against the Government. The way
to overcome these dangers, if such exist,
is to adopt the principle under discussion,
where every elector can exercise his choice
to the full limit.
Something has been said by the hon.
member for East Peterborough (Mr. Sexsmith) with regard to the action of the
farmers in forming an organization of their
own. I do not think he was quite consistent
with what he said before that; I think he
rather contradicted himself. Let me, however, say this to my hon. friend, that I think
he must admit that he bas never seen in this
group anything that would justify him in
supposing that we want to make this group
exclusive. The farmers generally do -not
want to form an exclusive political organization; they do not want to be exclusive;
they do not want any class to rule. In
fact, the main reason of their organization
is their objection to class rule. We have
had class rule in Canada since Confederation, -and *e want to do away with that.
We have a platform on which we believe
that members of every class can stand, that
every honest man who wants fair play can
stand. Therefore, we stick to that platform. Perhaps I am getting a little out of
order; but if so I am only following my hon.
friend who spoke before, who was also out
of order. We ask for proportional representation amongst other things, so that my
hon. friend is with us there.
Personally, I would like to see our law so
framed that every opportunity will be given
to the electors to decide who shall be their
representatives. I realize that the leading
issue in the next election campaign will be
the issue between a customs tariff, probably somewhat resembling the tariff we
have at present, on the one side, and a very
low tariff on the other. I need not say
where I stand on that question. Still, if
the maiority of the people of Canada desire
APRIL 4, 1921
to retain a protective tariff such as we have
at present, ior even a higher tariff, they have
an absolute right ta such a tariff, and notwithstanding my own preference, I wish
them to have it. They have the right to
rule, and tbey have the right to decide what
should be done. I may believe their course
a mistaken one, but I must grant them the
right to make their own mistakes.
I trust this resolution will be adopted by
an overwhelming mai ority of the members
of the House, and that it will be follawed by
immediate and effectual legislation.
Mr. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac): Mr.
Speaker, I did not arrive in the chamber in
time to hear the opening sentences of the
speech of the hon. member for East Peterborough (Mr. Sexsmith); but 1 think I was
in time to hear the greater part of his
speech, and I may'frankly say that I was
very much impressed with many of the
,arguments which he presented. I have had
the privilege of sitting in this House with
the hon. member for East Peterborough for
a number of years. 1 know he neyer advocates anything unless he is absolutely sincere, and be is always very careful in his
accumulation of facts and always logical
in bis presentation of them. I find myself,
bowever, in this position in regard to the
resolution before us. Very frankly I confess that I have not 'given this subject the
careful study wbich. bas undoubtedly been
given to it by tbe hon. member for East
Peterborough and by the hon. member for
Qu'Appelle (Mr. Thomson). I find myself
then in a position of being ill-informed as
ta, perhaps, the benefits of this proposed
system over aur present- system. It may
be, as these hon. gentlemen urge, that the
system of proportional representation, sucb
as is proposed in this resolution, would bte
vastly superior to the system which bas prevailed ever sinc Confederation, and I arn
conscious of xnany defects in that system.
I amn not sure at the present moment that
the system suggested would be better than
aur present system, 'with ail its difliculties,
and that briiigs me to the objection which I
find in the resolution as proposed. It reads:
That, in the opinion of this House, la order ta
give each voter an equal share in the representation, sorne systern of proportionai representatlon should be adapted-
1538
COMMONS
GOMMONS
15~8
to the debate, coming fromn Manitoba,
no question in the world hut that the Norris
where the question is no longer an acade- Governneiit would have received a much larger
mic one, but where the systemn bas actually representation.
One point 1 want hon. members to realbeen tried, will be to give a few facts witb
regard to the. trial that was nmade of the ize, is that We are not having groupa besystein there during the last election. In cause of proportional representation, but
the first place, it was tried in Winnipeg in spite of it. I tbnk most of the ground
alone, and with this extraordinary result, has been covered in this debate. A point,
that in Winnipeg we have a group of three bowever, tbat preseats some dificulty is:
parties on]y, Labour, Liberal and Conser- Wbat are you going to do in single-memvative, whereas in the outlying parts of ber constituencies? Most men feel that it
the province where the old systeni was in is impossible to group the outside constiforce, we have a group of five, Liberal, tuencies, and frankly I amn of that opinion.
Farmer, Conservative, Labour and Inde- Our areas are too far-flung to do it. As a
pendent. It will no doubt be interesting result of the election in MVanitoba there is
to the House to ascertain how this oc- a Bill before tbe Manitoba bouse at the
curred. I have some figures here wbicb presenit time, and it has passed its second
1 shall flot read at length, but which witb reading, for the purpose of
carrying out
tlbe permission of the House I shal place the idea of the single
transferable vote in
on Hansard, after quoting briefly froin every
constituency in Manitoba.
This
thein. 1 have bere the actual returas of oioes not
mean gToup
constituencies,
every constituency in Manitoba, the numare
more than tbree
ber of votes polled, the number of candi- but if there
candidates the elector will be given
dates, and the resuits.
In Brandon, for
instance, where my old friend, General a first, second, and third preference.
Kirkcaldv xvas running as a Conservative, For instance, if tbere are tbree men, one
lie polled 1,245 votes. My old friend, Mr. a Conservative, one a Liberal, and one a
Fariner, I, being a Liberal, would probably
Clements,
a Liberal, polled 1,403 votes, vote for
the Liberal. Now, tbe niajority
and Albert E. Smith, the Labour man,
is the mai ority of tbe votes cast at the
polled 2,207 votes. This is a fair sample
election.
of a modemn election where more than two haf of Supposing 14,000 votes are cast;
that would be 7,000, and one over
candidates are running. It happens to-day,
that would be the quota required to elect
Mr. Speaker, quite often, I thnk, that we a
member.
Pot only do not have majority representa- if bie bas Now, I vote for the Liberal, and
sufficient votes in the first round
tives, but we have minority ones and this to elect bim,
that setties it. If not, it ia
is a fair case iii point. In Emerson con- proposed to
drop out the low mian and transstituency, the farmers elected a member fer bis votes, according
to the preference
witb a vote of 989. The Govermient polled of tbe votes. Probably, ia the
next case, I
756, and the Conservatives, 925.
The would transfer my vote to the Fanmer if
man wvho was elected with 989 votes my firat cboice was not elected. These votes
had against bim 1,600 votes of people are transferred in accordance with the
Who did Pot believe in bis policies. It bas expressed desire of tbe voter; so that, as
siometim-es been said that if it had not been a matter of fact, no vote is bast, and it is
for propos tional representation there would impossible to bave a minority candidate
not have been so many groups in the Mani- returned. Tbe man wbo does corne back
toba House. Witb your permission, Mr. must bave at least a majority of one.
Speaker, I shahl read a letter froin the
I was very mucb interested tbe other day,
Executive Council in Winnipeg.
when the debate on patronage was before
1 arn in receipt o Your lotter of the 23rd uit.,
tbe House, to bear tbe hon. member wbo
with respect t0 the recent Manitoba elections,
bas just spoken (Mr. Edwards), suggest
and 1 arn enclosing herewith the list of the candidates and the votes polled., for each in each that tbe patronage should be given to tbe
sitting member. I Wonder wbat hie would
constituency in the Province
Manitoba.
1 cannot understand how theof newspapers
do la a case like Emerson, wbere the
are
possessed with the idea, that proportional represitting member represented 900, altbougb
sentation is responsible for, the reduced majority
approximately 1,680 people had voted
of the Norris Government, as the vote in Winagainst bisn. It is entirely possible under
nipeg did flot show this by any means. I have
given as flear as possible the party affiliations
our present systeni that we may have a
of each candidate, but until the flouse meets
bouse, after tbe next election, unleas there
it is difficuit to accurately state how somne of
is a cbange, representing about one-third
these w iii Ulne Up.
of tbe people of Canada. That is quite
Had proportional representation been in force
throughout the whole of the province there Is
possibe T-day, this proposai is right in
[Mr. Andrews.]
1539
APRIL 4, 1921
1539
APRIL 4, 1921
they
that
doubt
no
have
1
and
eye,
the
longer
no
is
It
line with practical politics.
that
Sir,
suggest,
I
interest.
of
be
would
a, matter of academic debate, and I -do
sincerely trust that the Government will it would be helpful to a proper considerawere
appoint this committee. I agree with the tion of the subjeet if the document
Hansard.
on
placed
be
to
allowed
his
hon. member who has just resumed
seat that if the mover of the resolution
Mr. SPEAKER: It is only a question of
could recomniend the appointment of a principle. It is the duty of the Chair to
committee without committing us to some direct-the attention of the House to the rule,
definite form of proportional representation, which is very clear and weIl defined. Howit would be very much better. I will vote ever, under the cjrcumstances, I have no obfor it in any case, because it is a right jection to submitting the question to the
thing; but if this suggestion were adopted House. Is it the pleasure of the House that
I think it would be in the better interests the tabulated statement submitted by the
of ail concerned. With regard to the figures hon. member (Mr. Andrews), be inserted in
which I hav*e, with the permission of the, Hansard without being read?
House, Mr. Speaker, I would place them
Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.
on Hansard. The statement gives the
numthe
and
votes
of
number
the
names,
Mr. ANDREWS: I have just one more
ber of candidates in every constituency. word to add. I would quote the following
In some constituencies there were as many from the letter I received from Mr. Tupper:
as five candidates running. I think that
1 might say that the sucoess of the system
this table would be of general interest to seems'to me to depend upon the efficiency of
members of the House, and it would be those in control of the counting. We were
fortunate in-this province to have exceptionally
well to have it on Hansari.
able men in charge, and the resuit Is no doubt in
Mr. SPEAKER: I think the hon. mem- a great measure due to them.
ber would be better advised to read the
I want to point out that this success in
list: It is only in rare and exceptional Winnipeg was not a mere accident. It was
cases that documents are permitted to be due almost entirely to the efforts of Mr.
embodied in Hansard without having been Ronald Hooper, who is employed in the
While
read, and I have neyer known instances in- Labour Department in Ottawa.
which this was done in a debate on private many of us have been playing at golf and
member's day. While I regret that this is having a good time for years, this young
so, nevertheless it is the fact, and I think
man has been devoting his energy and his
it would be well, in the interests of proper time to the study of the question or repreprocedure, for the hon. member to conform sentation in Parliament, and I have no hesito the rule and read the list.
tation in saying to-day that he knows more
any man in Canada.
Mr. McMASTER: Mfay I rise to a point of about this subject th-an
If the comniittee
world.
the
in
perhaps
or
long
very
a
is
this
If
order, Mr. Speaker?
he will be asked
that
hope
do
I
appointed,
is
statement the reading of it may take up
of great
considerable time. This is an extremely to attend, because his views will be
important debate, and while the' statement value.
Following is the list submitted by the hon..
may not strike hon. members on its reading,
yet in printed form the facts would catch mnember for Winnipeg Centre:
NIMOBA
Name of Candidate
Electoral Division
Arthur ..........................
Assiniboia...............
........
Beautiful Plains,...................
Birtle ...........................
Brandon City................
Carillon .........................
....
VTotes
PolIed
891
881
2,054
1,941
Ace.
995
861
2,007
1,403
1,245
973
925
Remarks
1540
COMMONS
MI.NIToA-
CO n.
Electoral
Division
('ypress...............
Naie of C'andidate
.........
W'. H. Spinks..........................
. .. . . . . .
W. Miles .....
. . Andrew
.. . ......
Il - '
Dauphin..............
George H. Pl'amer ............
.............
W in. J. Harringon ..... ......
Deloraine ..........
..
.
.
Hon. I. S. Thornton..........
Df In
.
* ..
. . . Johin CI. W . Reid ... . .. . . .. . . .
Duferi
............................
E. A. .\ugust............ ...............
..... Aiex. M orrison .. . . . . . . . . . ..
Ethelbert .............. N. A. Hryhorezuk . ........
.... .. .
.
... . Ernest A. M arcroft....
. . . . .....
n
......
.... Jas.Guiszdaski...........................
Emerso
..........
..........
.... Dnyfro Yakimiisehak . ............
.... .. . . .. .John D. Baskerville ...... . . . . . .
Roy3 W hitnan ...........................
Fairford.........
. ..
.
A. W. Kirvani..............
...
.... ... .. .. .. ..Y . G . Serkau .....
.. . . . . . ...
. alvcrly...................
.1. .
. . . . .
.... A. F. t arpenter. . . . . . . . . . . . .
... ............. ... J. 'Mathe,on..............................
Fier .............. .... .... H. L. Mahh ............
... .............
..
. ... .. .
. . . J. W . Ar,,enyth .. . . . . . . . . . . . .
... . . ..
. . Yaniaehe . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Gilhert Plains............. ,...... W. B. Findlater........ .....
. . . . . . Rl.
. J. Dalgleish . . .. . . . . . . . ..
Gimli .............
...
Gudmuidnr Fjelstedl.....
....
- *T. D . Ferley .. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
' *
I - '>.." ' ' ........
Gladstone............
Hon. J. W. Armstrong..........
W illiami W. Lohh..
.
. .......
Glenwood.............
......
W illiami Rohson . ............
Il ''*
- -... James W. Breakey....
Hamiota.................. ........
John Henry Me('onnell.....
Il ...........-...
W illiam Ferguson ......
1ber-ville .. . . . . . . . .. . . ..A thur R. Boivin . . . . . . . . . ..
Kildonan and St. Andrewvs..... .... Alhert Fariner ..............
.....
David Morrison .. ...........
.. . . . T. M eClonnell ... . . . . . . . . . . .>
Kllarney ..... .....................
Samnuel Flet her...........
..................
Melville Hayden ........
.......
Lakeside .....
......
Chas. D. MePherson.....................
.....
>Edwin Herbert Muir..........
* ..
Il '*"**
Lansdowvne ..........
.... Hon. T. C. Norris. . ...
......
1.. >'l
- *- .
.
.. H . T. H icks
. . . . . . . . . . .
La Verandrye ........... .. P. A. Talhot .....
. .. . ....
..
. ..,L.
...
R. Magnumn...
. ... .. ..
Manitou..........
....
. .. John S. Ridley .....
........
.............
George T. mstrong . .........
.. .. . .
Compton.....
. ....
"* "
Minnedosa .... - ............
. .. George
Hon. G. A. Grierson .. .......
..
. .. .W
. . T. BieF y .. . .
. . .. .
. .
Morden aid lihineand ........
John Kxennedy ................
oris . .. . .
...
....
H. W
,inklei ......
.......
Mors...
. . .. . . . . .. .
Wm. R. C'lubb......h... . . . .
... .. .. ..
. . . . . . lex.
11te .. . . .
. . . . . . .
Fred. J. Last.................. ..........
M ountan .....
. . . . . . . ..- J.A, Baird . .,0
.. .G..
. . . . .
Il "..- *
Andrew Young . .............
Norfolk........... .........-..... R. G. WVaugh.............
. ......... .............. John Graham . .............
.............
John H. Wright ......
.......
Portge
a Priri...............
Faweett G. Taylor.......................1,0
...............
.... E. A. MePherson .............
Roblin ............
.... Henry R. Richardson .........
............
Fred. Y. Newton........................
Rockwood......
Wm. C' MeKinnell........................
..
. ..
. .... .. . .. . A thur J. Lohh. . . . .. . . . . . .
ot.
sSot.........................Th
Th mm sS
]RusseIll..................... ............
W. W. W. Wilson.........................
............................
ILJ. Brown..............
...................
lbert L. ]Reid ..........................
[Mr. Andrews.]
~~~~.............................
Votes
Polled
1,487
1,307
1,466
1,044
1,503
1,188
1,478
1,401
1,2711
684
110
989
756
9215
241
240
236
137
121
443
362
214G
735G
715
1,359
1,242
1,327
1,147
1,149C
1,145G
1, 109
762
Ace.
1,184
876
852
1,072
676
1,104G
1,081
1,752
914
1,023
709
1,185C
901
926F
1,296
1,029
Remarks
(1
G
L
G
G
C
CI
F
G
F:
G
G
( Il
I
t
I
1-F
G
1
F
G
G
G
t
1
L
G
F,
F
U'
G
C
I-C
F
(
G
F
52
930
65
251
G
F
F
I
1,178
1,090C
873G
503
Fi
1,019
991
887
978
977
638
1,274
642
593
3"
G
F
t
F
G
CI
G
F
I
APRIL 4, 1921
MANITOBA-Con.
Nme of Candidate
NoTE.-G-Liberal.
L-Labor.
I-IndePendent.
Votes
Polled
Remarks
1,434
c
730
G
404
942
G
675
I
977
L
G
850
445
F
Elected L (noreturn>
878
c
745
G
488
G
987
S-L
928
F
352
G
123
F
1,163
F
544
G
1,020
G
1,001
c
1,313
G
1,022
F
1,174
I
2,767
L
2,402
G
776
I
452
L
1,274
C
1,307
I
11,586
L
431
I
282
1
792
G
28
I
1,893
c
105
I
1,928
L
1,206
G
56
L
52
L
4,386G
368
G
135
C
554
c
254
G
45
1
189
1,150
I
218
c
945
G
443
L
219
I
1,253
L
1,541
G
1,535
L
359
C
1,743
G
95
L.
265
C
1,500
C
88
845
F-Farmer. C-Conservative.
1542
COMMONS
kind an individual, in many cases apparently, must be voting for a principle rather
than for a man. Because I can conceive
that in an election such as they had in
Winnipeg it would be almost physically
impossible for candidates to become acquainted with thier constituents, or for constituents to get to know their candidates,
by reason of the size of the constituency
and the multiplicity of candidates, and
particularly where an electf'on is arranged
in a comparatively short time as it was under the Manitoba law.
Another thing that troubles me-I am
merely mentioning this at the present time
-is that I see difficulties in adopting one
principle of representation for urban communities, and another system for rural
communities. Now there may be good
reasons for that. However, I do not wish
at the present time to enter upon a detailed
discussion of the features of the system
either pro or con, I simply throw out this
suggestion: The whole subject ' is one
worthy of the very fullest consideration of
this House, and Parliament should take
means whereby it may obtain the very
best advice and the very best evidence it
possibly can on the subject. In so far as
the resolution itself is concerned I think
the member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards)
pointed out what may be called a defect,
and that is that the House should not at
this stage be called upon to vote upon the
principle of the resolution. For that reason
it bas therefore been suggested that the
motion should be amended, and I propose
to move an amendment so as to bring about
that result. Accordingly I beg to move:
That all the words after the word "House" in
the second line thereof be struck out and the
following be substituted therefor:
A Special Committee of this House should be
appoi.nted to consider the subject of proportional representation and the subject of the
single transferable vote-
Which is a very different thing, as I ununderstand it, from proportional representation; both subjects should be considered-and the desirability of the application of one
or the other, or both, to elections to the House
of Commons of Canada, and to report thereon
to the House, and that such Conmnittee have
power to send for persons, papers and records,
and te examine witnesses under oath.
APRIL 4, 1921
to the use in the amendment of the termn
"the single transferable vote." This has
generally referred ta the Hare System of
Representation, and I think perhaps the
amendment would bie clearer if it was
phrased in this way "the single transferable or preferential vote" as doubtless that
is what the Minister of Immigration' has
in mind.
Mr,. CALDER: I have no objettion ta
inserting the words "or preferential vote."
Mr. J. J. DENIS (Joliette): At this late
heur of the night I shall fot impose a long
speech on the House. However, as I take a
deep interest in this matter of proportional
representation, or the method of transferable votes, or any other system. which.
might have for its object the improvement,
of the existing systemn of election, I think
it my duty ta say a 'word or two upon
the present resolution.
At the outset I
congratulate the Minister of Immigration(Mr. Calder) for introducing the amendment which hie has brought in. I understood on the reading of the reslolution as
originally drafted that it was a committal
on the nierits of the issue.
But now I
gather that the only question that should
be deait with by the House at. the present
time is, whether or flot this question is important enough ta justify the bouse in
appointing a committee ta consider it.
Therefore I think it was wise ta omit-that
part Of the resolution which was a committal on the nierits of the issue, and simply
leave before the bouse the question of
whether or not a special committee should
bie appointed.
One might ask what las proportional representation? To the man who has flot made
sanie study of the question, proportional
representation, might, perhaps, mean a
revolution in the electoral franchise. I
must say, Sir, that in my opinion proportional representation means nothing of the
kind. Proportional representation, ta my
mind, is purely and simply a miile-stone on
the road of political evolution and reforni.
The electoral franchise is rather. a new invention in the lives of civilized nations.
One has not ta go very far back in history
ta find the drigin of the electoral system.
Civilized nations had existed for many centuries before the popular electoral franchise was given, or invented, if I might
use that terni. The development of a popular electoral franchise -was gradually
accomplished, first in Great Britain then in
1543
14
1544
COMMONS
that proportional representation has been -fully study that report and be able to exin effect in over ten .countries, including press an enlightened opinion on the subject.
I will not attempt to enumerate the many
Galicia, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, the
Netherlands, Switzerland, two or three of advantages which in my opinion would folFurther, low the adoption of proportional representathe Balkan States, and Brazil.
wherever the system bas been given a fair tion, but I might bring to the attention of
trial it bas never been discarded, which the House one point which was raised some
Deer
speaks strongly in favour of its merits. time ago by the hon. member for Red
on
the
address.
speaking
when
Clark)
(Mr.
this
The hon. member who introduced
resolution quoted many instances in which in substance he said that in the Old Counflagrant injustice bas been done to the try, England especially, when a man bas
figure, whether it be in
electorate. I might perhaps add to the become a national
the people will suplong list. Indeed, if one should go through one party or another and almost invariably
the polls
at
port
him
in
elections
parliamentary
of
the results
that man will be returned to Parliament as
this and other countries the book which I
desires. We know that history
am now holding in my hand would not be often as he
statement. In this country,
that
supports
of
examples
the
all
large enough to contain
are not so well developed as
politics
where
the dire injustice to the electors on account they are in the older countries, and where
of the present system not being as effective perhaps the political sense is not as keen, we
as it should be to give proper expression to often see men of the highest integrity and
the will of the electorate. While the hon. unquestioned ability defeated at the polls.
member was speaking there came to my Well, whatever party such men belong to it
mind two instances which are is always a loss to the country when they
11 p.m. familiar to us and which oc- fail to secure re-election. When men have
curred in the Federal elections made their mark in Parliament, men of the
of 1917. In those elections the country type we have in this House, I do not care
west of the Great Lakes elected only two ta what party they belong, my opinion is
Liberal members. Is it to be supposed, that such men have become an asset to
Sir, that under proportional representation their country and should be encouraged to
more than two Liberal members would not remain in public life. Under the present
have been elected there? The answer is system we have seen time and again our
obvious. Taking my own province, sixty- best men defeated simply because the
two Liberals were elected as against only electors have not had the advantage of
three Unionists. Is it reasonable to suppose voting under a system of proportional rethat the Union party could not have secured 'presentation.
more than three seats if proportional
Mr. MeMASTER: They could be put in
I
representation had been in operation?
do not believe it, I am sure of the contrary. the Senate.
Therefore, we have on the one hand in the
Mr. DENIS: The resolution as amended
West the Liberals deprived of that repre- simply asks that a committee be appointed.
sentation which they should have had; and, Taking into consideration the fact that this
on the other hand, in the province of Que- question is a most important one and that
bec we have the Unionists deprived of the members -on both sides seem to be most
representation which they should have had. anxious that it be debated at length, I
And these are typical of other cases that think it is only proper and right that the
could be cited.
resolution as amended should carry and
Now, proportional representation to my that a special committee to investigate this
mind is only an expression qualifying a matter should be appointed.
proposed change in the present electoral
Mr. JOHN HAROLD (Brant): Mr.
system. The change might also come under
the form of transferable votes for single Speaker, I rise to support the amendment
constituencies, or under any other form. proposed by the Minister of Immigration
(Mr. Calder). I feel that tlie Government
But at all events, as was clearly demonstrated by the hon. Minister of Immigra- are to be commended for the stand they
tion, it is certainly a reasonable and just have taken with regard to the request that
reform, and the House owes it to itself and a committee be appointed to consider this
to the country that a special committee be important question. I am not an enthusiast,
appointed to consider this question very nor have I been entirely won over to prothoroughly and report thereon to the House, portional representation, but being a soand then every member will be able to care- called minority representative, I have given
[Mr. Denis.]
APRIL 4,
APRIL 4,
the matter a good deal of consideration.
One point to which I should like particularly to refer is the desirability of having
the transferable vote in the single-member
constituency. In our own constituency the
representative in the provincial House is
a minority representative; he did not secure fifty per cent of the vote in the riding.
As I took part in a three-cornered contest,
the same thing resulted, the vote being
about 2,100 out of a total of 5,400. Now
we have to face the situation which confronts us. We are going to have in many
constituencies throughout the country representatives of three or four different
groups of thought and we should consider
in what way the laws should be changed
so that the best representatives can be
selected from those constituencies. From
my experience I would say that the adoption of the transferable vote would
lead to a much better condition in such
constituencies from the standpoint of
fairness and honesty in elctions. Considerable influence would be brought to
bear in such cases to have certain candidates withdrawn in order that a combination might be effected against some other
candidate. On the other hand, we know
from experience that influence would also
be brought to bear with a view to bringing out certain candidates in order to split
certain votes and 'to elect the one whose
success was desired by those working for
such an end. If every group is perfectly
free, without the exercise of any influence,
to put its representative in the field, a candidate's election being impossible if the
sentiment of the majority of the people is
not beind him, a much more desirable state
of affairs in regard to elections in such
cases is brought about.
I understand that the present Government in Ontario polled the smallest number
of votes of the three parties that were
running. They themselves recognize the
weakness of their position and have quite
consistently pressed that some change be
made in order that a similar condition
might not again prevail. We are experimenting with proportional representation
in the provinces and the municipalities. It
seems to me that this Parliament should
proceed very cautiously in respect to any
proposed changes; we had better profit by
the experience of those who are already
carrying on experiments. Furthermore,
one trial is not going to tell the tale. Sometimes a new thing is taken up enthusiastically; many people are interested in mak98
1921
1545
1545
1921
ing it a success, and it proves to be a temporary success. But we have to keep in mind
the necessity of having a strong and stable
government and at the same time of changing our electoral machinery from time to
time so as to take care of any abuses that
arise through the changes in the opinions
of the people such as their desire to form"
themselves into different groups. The Government have, I think, correctly interpreted public opinion in this matter. I have
every confidence that the committee which
is to be appointed will come to a wise decision, one that would prove to be a benefit
to the country at1;he next election.
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Marquette): Mr.
Speaker, I do not wish to let this occasion
pass without extending a word of commendation to the Government for granting the
committee asked for in the resolution
moved by the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Sexsmith). Let me say at once
that I am in entire accord with the principle of proportional representation, and
that it has my hearty support. It is a
principle that has long since passed the
experimental stage.
It is a significant
fact that those European countries which
have adopted it and applied it in their
legislative system are to-day perhaps the
most orderly countries in the world, and
are among those subject to the least political disi;urbance.
The system has prevailed in Belgium, Holland, Denmark and
Sweden for many years and has operated
very successfully.
There is very good
reason for that; for it is simply an extension of the principle of representative
government.
In 1916 the British House of Commons,
the mother of parliaments, arranged for a
Speakers' conference to consider this
among other matters of reform in their
electoral system, and that Speakers' con
ference, composed of the most representative men in the British House of Commons,
brought in- a unanimous report in favour
of the application of the principle of proportional representation in the conduct of
elections in the United Kingdom. It is,
therefore, not a question of experiment;
it is a principle which has been tested and
tried and the operation of which has been
proved to be successful.
Reference has been made to-night to the
experience of Winnipeg in the last provincial election. I have talked to many representative men in that city, and without
exception, irrespective of political affiliations, they are strong in their commendation of the principle as it was actually
REVISED EDITION
COMMONS
worked out in the last provincial election
in Manitoba. I am heartily in accord also
with the application of the system of
preferential voting in single-member conMy hon. friend from Brant
stituencies.
(Mr. Harold) has referred to the fact that
we have quite a number of groups, shall
I say, seeking representation in this House.
In a constituency where three or four candidates are running it may very well happen-indeed it is almost certain to happen
under our present method-that the successful candidate will- represent the minority of the electors in the constituency.
That, indeed, was the case in the election
held in East Elgin last autumn and in the
By
election later held in Peterborough.
the application of the principle of preferential voting in single-member constituencies that difficulty can be overcome and
the representative finally selected will be
the representative of a majority of the
I was much
people in the constituency.
impressed indeed with the remarks of my
hon. friend from Joliette (Mr. Denis) and
I endorse the arguments he advanced in
favour of this reform. I am glad the
Government has granted this committee;
I trust it will investigate the matter fully,
and I would offer this suggestion to the
committee, that has not yet been appointed,
but will be, according to the statement
made by the Minister of Immigration and
Colonization (Mr. Calder), that it might be
a very appropriate and useful thing if all
the members of this House would hear the
principles underlying the system of proportional representation explained by some
of the gentlemen whom, I am sure, the
committee will call before it to give evidence. I wish, in closing, to express my
strong support of the principle, and I trust
the work of this committee will result in
the system being adopted by this House.
Mr. W. F. COCKSHUTT (Brantford)
Mr. Speaker, for fear it might be presumed
that every member of the House is in
favour of proportional representation, I
think it is well that one should say a word
or two against the proposition, and at the
expense of being considered singular, I
am going to risk the operation and say
that, in my judgment, the recommendation
that this House should endorse such a
principle as proportional representation is,
to say the least of it, folly. The hon. member for Joliette (Mr. Denis) has named
ten countries, I think, in which he says
proportional representation has been in
operation for several years. With all due
deference to the countries that he named,
[-1on. T. A. Crerar.]
APRIL 4,1921
1547
1547
APRIL 4, 1921
sidered in the Ontario House by a coin- the people, and thus fifty-five per cent of the
mittee similar to the one proposed, and the vote will be controlled, and forty-five per
riding from which 1 corne is proposed to be cent, which was a solid vote for the general
one of the victims. That is one reason why, advantage of Canada, will be side-tracked
I feel particulaly strong upon this ques- under proportional representation. That is
tion. One of the selected constituencies quite possible; it is quite probable that it
upon which. the physic is to be tried will be done. We know from time to time a
consits of the county of Brant, containing group is ready to seil out if it can get its
two members, the county of Oxford, con- price, its price would be some fad that it
taining two members, and the county of has set its mind upon, and it is ready to
Waterloo, containing two members. There- sacrifice ahl other interests for the advanfore, I examine the systemi in the light of tage of this one particular fad that is sewhat I know about elections and about those -lected by it as being the most important
particular constituencies. In the first place thing at issue in the present crises. The
it is desirable that a community should know British system has grown up under a thouthe nmen for whom they are voting. Is that sand years of parliamentary reform. We
flot desirable? It cannot be done in six have the British system in Canada; they
Ridings. A candidate is hardly known in have it very largely in the United States,
his own Riding until hie has run in tw and I say with all deference to the ten counor three lections. Perhaps it is well that tries my hon. friend has mentioned, that
hie is not known too well. That xnay be; they cannot show any one of those three
but whether it be the case or not, it is an countries, Great Britain, Canada and the
axiom of British procedure at any rate United States, anything about up-to-date
that a candidate should be a local.man;
responsible government.
that his, character and ability should be
Mr. CRERAR: They are adopting it in
known; that hie should have some stake in
the community and that hie should be a Great Britain.
man in whom the people have confidence.
Mr. COCKSHUTT: I do not think so,
In six Ridings that is flot possible. Futher,
and
I do not think the hion. gentleman will
supposing a vacancy occurs by death or
because of maipractice in elections; what live to see the day that it will be dopted
happens? The sticcessor has to run in six in this Huse, unless such a calamity should
Ridings to be elected. Supposing a man in happen as that a certain group should get
one Riding was selected as a minister of th into power, and I do not think that will
Crown; hie would have to run, and be happen. If we are going to investigate all
elected, not in his own Riding, but in six. the fads that are proposed, we should at the
In other respects proportional representa- samne time send to this committee the recal,
tion is a most cumbersome and undesirable the referendum, the initiative and all those
system; it will advance the class system and fads that have been copied from certain
the group system. I understand that in parts of the United States and brought into
Medicine Hat a paper has been established our western country. Let us make a dlean
recently by the Non-Partisan League for- breast of it and a dlean sweep. I would be
merly of North Dakota, who have moved in faveur of a representative committee
into Canada. They have bought up a paper properly appointed. investigating proporthere, if I arn credibly informed, and they tional representation, because I believe such.
have proposed eight classes to run' in the a committee would kili it.
I say the House would in a way be stulticoming election. It is a great mistake for
the people of Canada to break up into eight Iying itself if after this committee brought
classes.' I want to see a party run, that in its report the House turned it down,.
will run on a policy for the general ad- which possibly would be done, a consumvantage of Canada. That will be niy mation devoutly to be wished. In my judgment the proposition should not be enterpolicy; and I think I can show, in just a few
by whatever committee may be
words, that it will be possible for forty-five tairied
formed. I do not think our time should
per cent of the vote in Canada to, be given be spent in
following up these variou
on a platform that was for -the general fads, and certainly
they are abroad in the
advantage of Canada and that that party land at the*present moment.
This is a time
should not succeed, and that the seven other when ordinary
common sense cangroups, by buying certain privileges from not get a place,old-time
but has to make way for
one another, can make a working arrange- every kind of fad proposal for ,hampering
ment by which seven different fads will be the people and bringing in laws for
the
bought up and paid for at the expense of sake of multiplying them, instead of for
981
COMMONS
the advancement of the people. As I said that we should be studying. I would vote
in the House recently, I would far rather to have a committee on a question of that
hand my name down to posterity as a man kind at once, so that when a redistribution
who had prevented noxious laws from get- of seats is made it will be on the basis of
ting on our statute books than I would be population, on the principle that a certain
known for having introduced ten or twenty number of votes has a certain value,
or fifty laws of very doubtful character, whether those votes go to my hon. friends
and whose utility would be disproved as opposite or not. I do not want favours
soon as put in operation. There is too for any party. I say that the old British
much of that kind of legislation altogether, system that has been tried out and proved
and I for one think that this House should to be good for generations should not
not lend itself to this proposal even to the lightly be set aside because some new fad
is being introduced into Canada from counextent of appointing a committee.
Though not many have so far spoken, tries that cannot show us anything about
and perhaps nobody else will speak in this liberty, good government, or stable organiHouse on this occasion against this propo- zation. I understand that some of these
governments change over night, that a cersition, I believe I am speaking the view of
a very considerable number of members of tain group may be here to-day supporting
this House when I say they have absolutely the Government, and to-morrow jump to
no use for proportional representation. In the other side because they have been
fact, a western man told me that there are bought up by some particular fancy, or
257 varieties of it, which is 200 more varie- some particular idea that may be
The result is
ties than there are of Heinz pickles, so this entirely undesirable.
the
and
out,
sell
they
that
is a pretty pickle-257 varieties of proporover night.
goes down
tional representation! I understand that in Government
Many countries of Europe change their
Winnipeg it took over one week to find
out who was elected under proportional
premiers and their cabinets almost every
representation. Is it desirable to keep the twelve months, and some much oftener.
public in suspense that time, to keep the That is a most undesirable thing to encourhome fires burning and the brass bands and age, and therefore I say that if this comthe processions waiting for a week before mittee is going to kill tlhs fad I will ceryou find out who is elected? I understand tainly vote for the committee. I do not
that proportional representation has been believe any committee can investigate the
abandoned in certain parts of British
without killing it, and all the
Columbia that had it in a municipal way. question
fads that go with it. They are
attendant
I understand that in Calgary, where it is
by
in operation, the people-a any rate, those all in line, and are brought in largely
rethe
referendum,
The
people.
same
the
speaking
of
opportunity
an
I have had
with--have absolutely no use for it. Others call, the initiative, and all that sort of
who have tried it are all nearly of the trash should be all buried together by this
opinion that it should not be introduced one committee, and if they will do that, I
into Canada to any great extent.
will certainly hold up both my hands for
I want it distinctly understood, Mr. appointing it.
Speaker, that so far as I am concerned
Mr. A. R. McMASTER (Brome): I had
I do not oppose the committee, because I
think they will do their duty, and if they not intended to intervene in this debate but
do, they will kill this proposal and all the the remarks made by the hon. member who
other fads connected with it. We will then has just resumed his seat (Mr. Cockshutt)
get down to business and go ahead on the with that intense, genial and enthusiastic
good old British system, which says that
Toryism which marks his every utterance,
the people shall rule. What I want to see
make me feel that I would like to say just
in this country is a proper redistribution
a word or two. He reminds me of that
of seats, so that one man will have one Irishman who followed the advice: whenvote and one woman one vote, and so that
ever you see a head, lit it. Whenever a new
one vote will have one value to elect. If idea comes up my hon. friend takes a crack
are
that is done, a great deal of evil we
"It's a new idea," he says, "away with
now labouring under will be' removed. In at it.
hon. member has referred to the
The
it."
some constituencies it takes 50,000 or 100,system. I am always somewhat
British
old
in
and
a
representative,
elect
000 people to
the logic of a gentleman who
of
doubtful
others only 13,000 people; I think everybody knows the constituency where the 13,- leaves aside reasoning on the instant to
000 people live. It is questions of that sort appeal to patriotism, and here not only the
[Mr. Cockshutt.)
APRIL 4, 1921
logic of the hon, gentleman is wrong, but
his history, because the old British
system was two knights from a shire and
two burgesses from every borough. They
did not have a single-seated constituency,
but a double-seated constituency, which
gave in a somewhat meagre and attenuated
form a degree of porportionai representation.
My hon. friend also talks about the initiative, the referendum and the recall, as
fads from the United States. My idea was
that the initiative and the recali had their
rise in Switzerland, not in the United
States. Certainly the referendum had. He
also says: I want to have our party get
the votes to which. it ks entitled; I want
every voter to have a vote of equal value;
and he referred to the fact that some constituencies in this country are very much
larger than others. I agree with my hon.
friend; there are some a great deal larger
than others, and that constitutes an unfairness for which, of course, members who
represent the smaller constituencies are not
responsibie. They cannot -get more votes
than there are in the constituencies, but
if they get three-fifths of the votes which
were cast in the last election, as the member who now modestly addresses this
House got, my hon. friend should be perfectly well satisfied.
Let me just say this: Our parliamentary
institutions are on trial. I do not think even
the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt), if he would sit dow'n and carefully
s9tudy matters, would say that our present
single-seated constituencies give a just resuit. For instance, in the election of 1904,
the Liberals in Nova >Scotia cast about
56,000 votes, and the Conservatives, for the
Conservate party was then called the Conservative party, without trimmings, got
46,000 votes.
Mr. COPP: It was well trimmed that
time.
Mr. McMASTER:-So well trimmed that
the Liberals came back with the whole 18
seats. Although the Conservatives in Nova
Scotia had polled within 10,000 of the
votes polled by the Liberals, they hadl no
representation in this Parliament at ail.
Now does my hon. friend think that was
fair to the Conservatives of Nova Scotia 7
I do not think he does. 0f course, my grief
at the situation was not as great as his,
1550
COMMONS
system of eleetion should be devised and put governed than any other country, but
into practice which will bring into the their colonies and dependencies have enThe
House of Commons the strains of public joyed the same good government.
opinion in the same proportion, or as nearly British have been more successful in colonas possible in the same proportions as they izing the world and in governing their colexist in the country. It seems to me that onies than any other nation has been. That,
no one, whether in favour of this system to my mind, is pretty good evidence of the
or not, could object to the proposal made value of the system of government which
by the Minister of Immigration and Coloni- they have been practising. But not only
zation (Mr. Calder) that we should have has this system proven its value in the
a committee. I am sure this will appeal British Empire, but the greatest AngloThere is Saxon nation of the world, outside of our
to the members of the House.
Biblical authority against refusing to ex- empire, the United States, practically uses
amine any proposition. If it be of good the same system, with the exception that
it will succeed, and if it be of evil, then in its executive is independent of Parliament,
the long run it will fail. I heartily sup- while in British countries the executive is
port the amendment, and I trust that all really part of Parliament and subject
members of the House will unite in at least thereto. Under the party system of Great
Britain, it is essential that there shall be a
examining into the question.
strong executive. In Britain and in CanMr. MICHAEL STEELE (Perth S.):
ada the duties of the government are not
Like some of the previous speakers, I feel only administrative, but legislative; the govthat I ought to apologize for taking up even ernments of these countries govern as well
a few minutes at this time of- night; but, as administer. If the only function of govwith the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. ernment were to administer, then I would
Cockshutt) I should not like this oppor- admit that proportional representation
tunity to go by without saying a word as might very well be used. But where Parto what I think on this question. I am very liament and the Government must govern,
much in agreement with the hon. member it seems to me that it is absolutely necesfor Brantford on this subject. I believe sary that the Government shall have a
that in the discussion to-night, and per- good strong majority so that they may not
haps in the discussion generally on the be dependent on any clique, or group, or
question of proportional representation,
set of men for their support, relying only
the fact is lost sight of that we are en- upon those who consistently support them
deavouring to substitute not only a differ- in their general policy. We have heard a
ent method of conducting elections, but also, great deal to-night about the evils of the
unconsciously perhaps, to substitute a diff- present system and members being elected
erent method of government, for what has by minorities.
Under the proportional
been the practice in the British Empire for representation system every elected member
many years. There is no system of elec- is a minority member.
tion that is perfect. Proportional repreMr. McMASTER: No.
sentation is not perfect, as is evident from
the fact that there are, as some one has
Mr. STEELE: You cannot elect a memsaid, 257 varieties of it. My study bas ber under the proportional representation
led me to believe that there are 300 var- system by a majority vote. The number
ieties and none of them is entirely satis- of votes required to elect a member in each
factory. That also is evident from the of the constituencies under proportional
fact that no two countries, at least so far representation is found by dividing the
as I know, have adopted the same system; total number of votes cast by a number
each has a system varying from that of one greater than the number of represenany other country. But I desire to get tatives required.
back, as the hon. member for Brantford
Mr. McMASTER: Plus one.
did, to the good old British system. RidiMr. STEELE: Yes; one greater than
cule it as we_ will, criticize it as we may,
endeavour to substitute for it anything that number; so that any member elected
we choose, we cannot ignore the fact that by that system must be a minority reprethe British system bas built up the great- sentative. Some criticism has also been
est Empire the world bas ever seen, and made of the single member constituency.
that under that system the people of Great But one advantage of the single member
Britain have proven themselves the best constituency is that it provides one of the
governors that the world bas produced. very things which advocates of proportional
Not only bas their own country been better representation demand: it gives minority
[Mr. McMaster.]
APRIL 4, 1921
iZepresentation; if flot representation to tive majority, and the opinion expressed
the minority in that constituency it gives on that systemn was this:
representation to the minority in the
None has been devised more simple for the
country, and that is the minority that ought elector, more rapid in operation, more straightto be represented and is entitled to be repre- forward in result-advantages in an Instrument
sented.
I believe that every man who for use by a large electorate of varying intelliis elected to the House of Commons gence which It la difficult to over estimate.
of Canada is elected, first, as a supNow, is there not a good deal of truth
porter of the national policies which in that statement? Is it not a fact that
are best adapted to the needs of Canada. what we want is not a system which wil
That is the first thing that he must support. be mathematically correct-because after
The next thing that he must do is to re- ail the systemn of election by proportional
present the people of his constituency-not representation is largely a mathematical,
only those that voted for him but ail the system. What we want is a systemn which
people of his constituency-and I say that will appeal to the intelligence of our people,
in no country in the world, and neyer in which the average person or,--in fact, every
the history of Canada, has there been elector-can use with reasonable intellisuch need as there is to-day for representa- gence, a system. by which the people can
tive men with a national outlook who are mark their ballots in such a way as wil
prepared to stand by the policies which are 'show what the individual elector, at least,
developed and off ered by this Domidnion. believes is best for our country? Talk about
In order to have that it is necessary for the transferable vote and the alternative
us to get away from parochial ideas, and vote! I think there is a good deal to be
petty policies, although they may please said in favour of both, but the fact is that
a section of one constituency-may please in Western Australia where they have I
perhaps a section even of one province. think, the transferable vote-they have one
We need to get down to greater things, or the other-only sixty-five per cent of
the more important things, the things that, the voters made a second choice. And
to my niind, are to-day essential for the what, after ail, is the value of the second
choice? Is it not the electors first choice
welfare of Canada.
Let us eleet men who will support the that is important? It will be the customi
national policies of Canada.
In order to for every- elector, I think, to give less conbring that about it seems to me we must re- sidera(tion to his second choice than he gives
tain the systemn that we have at present. But to his first, even less consideration to his
we cannot retain it if hme adopt pro- third than he gives to his second; and the
portional representation, and if the peopie result will be that men will be elected on
of each constituency divide into two, or second, third or fourth choice, the most
three, or four or five or six classes; one ilI eonsidered choices which the elector
class perhaps, or even two classes, with makes.
Small majorities will cripple governtheir ideas on great national questions,
and the balance divided up as to whether ments; and I know of nothing more una man should be a farmer or something fortunate for Canada to-day than that
aise, 'whether he should be a labouring this Parliament should, at the next
or
at
any
time
within
man or something else-supporting one man election,
future,
be
so
composed
beeause he advocates a certain view which the near
is not before the electors of the country that no one party can carry on with a
at ahl but is merely held by some of the strong support and a strong majority.
electors in his constituency-enough, the That would be the most unfortunate posicandidate thiniks, to elect him. Now we tion this Parliament could get into. Why
cannot build up a great nation in Canada I would much prefer seeing my friend the
by adopting- that method of electing our leader of the Opposition in control of aifairs in this country than that condition
representatives to Parliament.
In 1909 a Royal Commission was ap- should exist. I would even go so far as
pointed by the British Parliament to look to say that I would prefer even to see my
f 'riend from Marquette (Mr. Crerar),
into this whole question-not only the ques- hon.
in control of the affairs of this Bouse
tion of proportional representation, but the rather than witness
a condition where no
many and varied methods, of electing their party could control. What Canada needs
representatives. One portion of the report to-day is a stable government, a strong
of that commission dealt with the present government that can carry on, and if the
systere of electing maembers in single meni- policy which that government adopts is
ber constituencies by the process of a rela- wrong, the people of the Dominion wil
1552
COMMONS
for the
He also said:
Proportional representation is a proposai
opposed to sound principle, the effect of whioch
would be to create a stagnant representation and
bring about a feeble executive; an admirable
scheine for bri-nging crochety men into the
Housge; a scheme of coteries, flot the politics of
nations; which if attempteti would end in chaos
and confusion.
APRIL 4, 1921
different speeches to find that no single
member appears to have had any Icnowledge
that such a committee had investigated this
important subject. During 1909, 1910 and
1911 that select committee was
12 m. appointed, and my hon. friend
1from, Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt)
who bas spoken so strongly this evening
against any conxmittee was one of those
who at that time supported the motion in
favour of a committee.
Mr. COOKSHUTT: I rise to a point of
order, Mr. Speaker. I was not a member
of the House at that time.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING: Oh, yes.
Mr. COCKSHUTT: Excuse me. 1 came
in in 1904 and was out rom 1908 until
1911, and therefore did not support the
appointment of the committee at that or any
other time.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING: 1 accept the
statement of my hbon. friend. 1 was under
the impression that he had been in the
House continuously from the time that be
was first returned. I owe him an apology
if he was not in the House at that time.
Hlowever, a committee did take tbis matter in hand and was unanimously supported by the House of Commons of that
day. I arn flot sure that its report bas been
printed. My impression is that it bas been,
but I have been unable to secure a copy
from the Library this evening. I mention the appointment of that committee
as an evidence that the subject bas already
been under consideration by a committee of
this Huse. Wbat is needed for a correct understanding of proportional representation is tbe most careful study
which. it is possible for hon. members to
If any evidence were
give the subject.
needed in support of the wisdom, of having
a committee appointed, it would be found in
the speeches made by the bon. members for
South Perth (Mr. Steele) and Brantford,
(Mr. Cockshutt) and Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), ail of whom. were more or lesa inclined to view proportional representation
as something not in accord with the principles of'the British electoral system. Wbat
is that system other than an endeavour to
give expression to tbe democratic principles of justice and freedom?
Proportional representation, s0 far as I
can see, ks a juster system than any we
have at the present time, in that it gives the
electors, whether of a minority or a maj ority, their fair share of representation in
1554
COMMONS
1555
APRIL 4,1921
1555
APRIL 4, 1921
reprsentation and the subject of the single
gress is being made, and we are getting
transferable or preferentiai vote and the dsiranearer to the Budget every day.
bility of the application of one or the other or
of
Commons
of
the
House
to
lections
both 10
Mr. MACKENZIE KING: Can my hon.
Canada, consist of th following members:
friend give an approximate date-a week,
Messieurs Blair, Calder, Orowe, Currie, Davidtwo weeks, a month?
son, Denis. Harold, Manion, MeMaster, Molloy,
Pardee, Sexsmith. Simpson, Sinclair <Antigonish
Sir HENRY DRAYTON: I should hesi(Qu'Appelle),
Thomson
and Guysborough),
tate to give even an approximate date, for
Whidden.
I should flot like to disappoint the House.
Motion agreed to.
GRIFFENHAGEN AND ASSOCITES
PROPOSED SELECT STANDING
On the Orders of the Day:
COMMITTEE ON RAILWAYS
AND SHIPPING
Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Russell):On the proposed motion of Mr. Maclean May I inquire from the leader of the Government if any person in any way connected
(Halifax):
with Griffenhagen and Associates is stili in
That Rule 10 of the Hous of Commons,
the employ of the Government, and if so,
Standrelating to the appoi.ntment of th Select
what work such person or persons are
ing Committees of the Hous, b amended by
adding to. the Select Standing Comxnittes of the
doing, and under 'what authority?
Hous a Select Standing Committe on "Railways
Right Hon. Sir GEORGE FOSTER
and Shipping" owned, oprated or controlled by
th Government; and that th Spcial Oom(Minister of Trade and Commerce): In
mitte appointed to prpare, and report th list
answer to my hon. friend I would say that
of members te constitut th Standing Comthe contract, as per noitice, has been canmittes for th prsent session, b Instructed to
celled, but the work of organization a part
prpar and report th list of membrs to comnpose th Select Standing Commnitte on 'Railof which remains unfinished will still be
ways and Shipping"' owned, operatd or concarried on by the subcommittee of Council
trolld by th Govrnment, for th prsent seswith the aid of certain persons employed
sion.
from. that company.
Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax): I wish te
Mr. MURPHY: How many of them are
move that this motion be discharged from
stili employed?
the Order Paper.
Sir GEORGE FOSTER: Not many. I
Motion agreed te.
tell my hon. friend the exact
Mr. could notat the moment, but I will find out
On the motion of Right Hon.
number
Meighen ,the House adjourned at 12.17 a.m. and let him know, probably to-morrow.
Tuesday.
ANSWER TO INQUIRY FOR RETURN
Tuesday, April 5, 1921.
On the Orders of the Day:
Th House met at Three o'clock.
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Prime
Minister): In answer to the hon. member
PRIVATE BILLS
for Kent, N.B. (Mr. Leger) who inquired
FIRST READINGS
yesterday as to the progress of a reBill No. 48 <from the Senate), for the turn ordered by the House on March 14,
relief of William John Bell.-Mr. Tudhope. I may say that the delay in bringing it
Bill No. 58 (from th Senate), for the down occurs by reason of the way the
relief of Hazel Galbraith.-Mr. Douglas notice of motion for production of papers
was framed, it being worded by the hon,
(Strathcona).
member in the general form. which, I venTHE BUDGET
ture to suggest is too often used, and
which compels inquiry to be made of, and
On th Orders of the Day:
reply awaited rom, every department of
Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (leader the Government. If hon. members would
of the Opposition): I should like to ask my confine notices of motion to cover only the
hon. friend the Minister of Finance if he is department they have in mmnd, they would
yet in a position to, give the House any in- get returns more rapidly. This particular
formation as to when he intends to present return rally covers the Department of Inhis Budget.
dian Affairs, but being generai in its form
inquiries had te be made of ail departments.
Sir HENRY DRAYTON (Minister of
Finance): I arn afraid that I cannot give The answer from the Department of Indian
my hon. friend any definite date. But pro- Affaire went to the Secre--ary of State sorne