1988interview

ROBERTANTONWILSON
Interview:1988
ThisisaneditedtranscriptofaninterviewwhichtookplaceinLosAngelesonApril23,1988.IwouldliketothankBobWilsonandhis
wonderfulwifeArlenforinvitingmeintotheirhome,andspecialthankstoBruceEisnerforhelpingtoarrangeit.Theinterviewwas
broadcastoncollegeradiostationKFJC,89.7FMinLosAltosHills,Californiafiveweekslater.--DavidA.Banton

Home

DAB:ThisisDavidB,hereinLosAngelesinthehomeofRobertAntonWilson.ItisApril23,1988,asignificantdayinRobertAnton
Wilsonphilosophy.Whatisthesignificanceof23?

Discordians

ThomasJefferson

RAW:Well,23isapartofthecosmiccode.It'sconnectedwithsomanysynchronicitiesandweirdcoincidencesthatitmustmeansomething,
Ijusthaven'tfiguredoutyetwhatitmeans!Inseveralofmybooks,includingtheIlluminatustrilogyandCosmicTrigger,Ihavegiven
examplesofatremendousnumberofcoincidencesconnectedwith23.Taketodayasanexample,April23:thisistheanniversaryof
Shakespeare'sbirth,April23,1556andhisdeath,April23,1616.AlsoApril23,1616,thesametimeShakespearediedinEngland,
Cervantes,authorofDonQuixote,diedinSpain.April23,1014iswhenBrianBorudied,hewasthefirsthighkingofIrelandtobea
politicalaswellasreligiousleader.HeunifiedallIrelandanddrovetheDanesout,andonApril23,1014hewaskilledbyoneoftheDanes
afterthebattleofClontarf,wherehedefeatedtheDanesforthefinaltime,andliberatedIrelandfromforeignrule.August23,1170iswhen
theNormanscamein,andIrelandhasbeenunderforeignruleagain,inwholeorinpart,eversince.OnAug.23,1920JamesJoycewas
discussingcoincidenceswithafriendinaParisbarwhenhesuddenlysawagiantblackratandfainteddeadaway.SothattiesJoyce
togetherwiththeinvasionofIreland,andShakespeare,andBrianBoru.Allofthisisin(JamesJoyce's)Finnigan'sWake,bytheway.

RobertAntonWilson

DAB:YouhaveawholeseriesofbooksfocusingontheIlluminati.WhatistheIlluminati,andhowdidthatbecomeaninspirationforso
manybooks?

HomerSimpson

Gurdijeff

1988interview

HoroscopeRAW

Mantras

RAW:Well,theIlluminatiwasasecretsocietyinBavariainthe18thCentury.AcertainnumberofparanoidindividualsbelievetheIlluminati
stillexistsandhaseithertakenovertheworld,ortakenovermostoftheworld,orsomethinglikethat.Idiscoveredtheanti-Illuminati
literatureinthelate60'swhentherewereallsortsofweirdconspiracytheoriesgoingaround.AndthenIdiscoveredthereweretwo
ambiguitiesconnectedwiththeIlluminati.First,therearethosewhosaytheIlluminatidon'texist,versusthosewhosaytheIlluminatistillexist,
andthenamongthosewhosaytheIlluminatidoexist,therearetwoschoolsofthought:thosewhoclaimthey'rethearch-villainsofallhistory,
andthosewhoclaimthey'retheheroeswhoaretryingtoliberatethehumanracefromsuperstitionandignorance.Andso,Idecidedagroup
thatambiguous,wherewedon'tknowwhethertheyexistornot,andwedon'tknowwhetherthey'rethegoodguysorthebadguys,they're
theperfectsymbol,tome,foralltheconfusionsoftheagewe'relivingthrough,andalloftherampantparanoiaofourtime.Conspiracy
theorieshaveneverbeenmorepopular,noteveninNaziGermany.
RAW:Recently,Falconpresshasbeenreprintingalotofyourbooks,andthere'salittlejokeinthelistofFalconBooks.Withsomanyof
thembyRobertAntonWilson,itasks,isFalconPressownedbyRobertAntonWilson?Well,isit?
RAW:No,that'sjustoneofthepublisher'slittlejokes.FalconPressisactuallyownedbytheHermeticOrderoftheGoldenDawn,which
wastheEnglishbranchoftheIlluminati,accordingtosomeconspiracybuffs.Ofcourse,itwasn'treally,that'sjustwhatsomenuttypeople
say.AndIwanttoalsodenyMaeBrussel'sclaim,uh,noit'snotMaeBrussel,it'sLyndonLaRouche.LyndonLaRoucheclaimsI'mthehead
oftheIlluminatithere'snotruthinthatwhatsoever.MaeBrusselistheonewhosaidI'managentoftheRockefellerconspiracy.Thatisthe
truth,Ican'tdenythatone!Actually,mywholecellarisfullfromfloortoceilingwithbarsofgoldsenttomepersonallybyDavidRockefeller
foralltheservicesIprovidefortheRockefellerConspiracy.
DAB:Ah-ha!
RAW:IconfessedthatseveralyearsagowhenMaefirstmadethechargeagainstme,andIconfessasfrequentlyaspossibletothat,because
themorepeoplewhobelievemycellarisfullofbarsofRockefellergold,thebettermycreditratingwillbe,soIdon'tseehowthatcanharm
meatall.Itcanonlydomegood.
DAB:SpeakingoftheGoldenDawn,theyhaveamysteriousreputationassomesortofsecretsociety,andyousaythereissomevariationof
thatgoingontoday?
RAW:Ohyes,theGoldenDawnhasthreechaptersintheLosAngelesareaalone.It'sgotchaptersalloverthecountry,inEngland,in
Canada,NewZealand,Australia...andIbelievethere'sachapterinSwitzerland,Idon'tknowwhereelse.
DAB:Whatexactlydotheydo?
RAW:Well,theGoldenDawnisahermeticsocietydevotedtoalteringconsciousnessonaplanetaryscale.Itsobjectivescannotbedefined

moreclearlythanthat.It'saCabalistic,Rosicrucian,magickalgroup.AmongthemorefamousmembersoftheGoldenDawnhavebeen
WilliamButlerYeats,thegreatIrishpoetArthurMachen,thegreatfantasywriterFlorenceFarr,oneofthegreatactressesoftheVictorian
age,whoincidentallywasthemistressofbothYeatsandBernardShaw,that'saninterestinglinkand,ohofcourse,AleisterCrowleywasa
memberoftheGoldenDawnallhislife.ThecurrentheadoftheLosAngelesTempleoftheGoldenDawnisaclosefriendofmine.
However,IamnotamemberoftheGoldenDawnmyself.
DAB:Norhaveeverbeen?
RAW:(laughing)NorhaveIeverbeen!ExceptthattheheadoftheGoldenDawnsaysIam...hewasaskedthatquestioninaninterview,
ChristopherHyatt,theheadoftheGoldenDawn,theOuterHead.HewasaskedifIwasamember,andhesaidWilsonbelongstoall
groupsandnone.Ithinkthat'ssuchaperfectdefinition,Idon'tattempttoimproveonit.
DAB:YoumentionedAleisterCrowley.You'vewrittenabouthimalot.Howdidyoufirstbecomeinterestedinhim?
RAW:Sometimearound1970,or'69,IwashavinglunchwithAlanWattsandImentionedtheIlluminatustrilogy,whichIwasworkingon
atthetime,andthesymbolismoftheeyeonthepyramid,whichisthesymboloftheIlluminati.AndAlansaid,thatremindsme,thebest
bookI'vereadallyeariscalledTheEyeintheTrianglebyIsraelRegardie,andItookAlanWattsveryseriously.Imean,hewasavery
funnyman,butwhenAlansaidsomethingwasworthreading,Itookthatseriously,soIwentoutandboughtthebook,TheEyeinthe
Triangle,anditturnedouttobeabiographyofAleisterCrowley.IsraelRegardiewasCrowley'ssecretaryforawhileinthe1930's.Then
laterhewasapsychotherapistrighthereinLosAngeles.IgotintocorrespondencewithDr.Regardieforseveralyears,beforehisdeath,
andlearnedquiteabitfromhimabouttheinnertraditionsoftheGoldenDawn,andaboutCrowley'swork.
DAB:Sohowabouttheeyeinthetriangle,whatdoesthatsymbolrepresent?
RAW:Theeyeontopofthepyramid,let'sstartwith,theeyeontopofthepyramidrepresentsthetranscendentalegoasdistinguishedfrom
thenormalego.Itrepresentsyourawarenessofyourroleasanevolutionaryagentwithallpastgenerationsholdingyouuptotheposition
you'reinnow.Thepyramidrepresentsallpastgenerationsandtheopeneyerepresentsyourrealizationofyouronenesswithallpast
generations,especiallyallpastgenerationsofmagicians.Reality,aswecallit,isthetemporaryresultantofcontinuousconflictbetweenrival
gangsofmagiciansandshamans.TheeyeinthetrianglebyitselfrepresentstheEyeofHorus.HorusisthelordoftwohorizonsinEgyptian
mythologythatmeanshe'sthelordoftherisingandthesettingson,birthanddeath,andallotheropposites.Warandmeditationaretwoof
hischiefcharacteristics.
DAB:Theaveragepersonwouldthinkofamagicianasaside-showentertainer.Whatisamagician,inyourdefinition?
RAW:Well,it'sanambiguousword.Itcanrefertoprestidigitation,conjuring,othershowbusinesstricks,oritcanrefertotheancientscience
ofthemagi,whichiswherethewordmagiccomesfrometymologically,it'sthescienceofthemagi.It'sthescienceofrapid,voluntarybrain
change,howtousethehumanbrainforfunandprofit.
DAB:Thatbringsustosomethingyou'vewrittenaboutcalledtheHEADRevolution:HedonicEngineeringandDevelopment.
RAW:TheHEADRevolutionismytermforwhat'sbeenhappeningsincethe1960's,thediscoveryofnewerandbettertechnologiesallthe
timeforrapidalterationofbrainfunctioning.We'vegonefrompsychedelicdrugs,tobiofeedbackandLillyisolationtanks,andalotof
fascinatingnewmachinesliketheMindMirror,whichisanacceleratedbiofeedbacksystemthatgivesyouacontinuousprofileofboth
hemispheresofyourbrain,andwhichfrequenciesthey'reworkingon.Everyyear,thetechnologyofrapidbrainchangegetsmoreadvanced,
tryingtofigurewhereit'llbefiveyearsfromnowparticularlymakesmedizzy,it'smovingsofastatpresent.
Ithinkit'sagreatexampleoftheevolutionaryfunctionofstupidity.Whenthegovernmentmadepsychedelicresearchillegalinthe60's,
scientific,openabove-boardresearchImean,thatdidnotstopresearch,theresearchjustwentunderground,togetherwithagreatdealof
partyingandhell-raisingandwhatnotwiththosedrugs.Ithoughtitwasthestupidestthingthegovernmenteverdid,butinretrospectIthink
stupidityhasanevolutionaryfunction,becausewhentheystoppedthatresearch,alltheleadingresearchersinthefieldwentintootherareas,
andsowe'vediscovereddozensofotherwaysofrapidbrainchange.Lillyworkedonhisisolationtank,otherswentintobiofeedback.Stan
Grof,whocametothiscountryseekingscientificfreedombecausehefelthedidn'thaveenoughscientificfreedominCzechoslovakia,he
cametothiscountryseekingscientificfreedomandtheytoldhimhecouldn'tdoanymoreLSDresearch,sohewenttoworkonbreathing
techniquesandtheeffectofsoundonthebrain,andhasdevelopedsomeveryinterestingpost-Reichian,post-yogictechniquesofbrain
change.So,byandlarge,thestupidertheestablishmentis,thesmartertherebelsbecome.Establishmentstupidityisthegreatestspurto
creativityinevolutionaryhistory.That'swhyIthinkReaganhasbeenagodsendtothiscountry.He'sbroughtmorestupiditytoWashington
thananybodyinmylifetime,andthere'sbeenatremendousupsurgeofcreativitywhilehe'sbeeninthere.
DAB:Haveyoutriedanyofthesenewbrainmachines?
RAW:EveryoneIcangetmyhandson.IstartedoutwiththePulstar,whichsendsmagneticpulsesintothebrain,andthebraingoesintothe
rhythmofthosepulses,soyougotoanyfrequencyyouwanttogoto,youmovedownfrombetatoalpha,tothetatodelta,whereveryou
wanttogo,withdirectmagneticimpulses.ItriedtheIsis,whichuseslight,andtheSynchro-energizer,whichuseslightandsound,andthe
Neuro-pepwhichuseslightandsound.IhaveaPulstar,andNeuro-pep,andanEndomax.Endomaxusesimpulsesagainstthemastoid
bonesbehindtheear,andaffectsthehypothalamusdirectly,whichcontrolstheneuropeptidesysteminthewholebody.Andrecently,Igotto
trytheGrahamPotentializer,whichisalong,table-likecontraptionbetweentwoelectromagneticgenerators,anditrevolvesinacertain
mathematicalpatternthatGrahamhasworkedout.HeclaimstensessionsonthatwillraiseyourIQtremendously.Ionlyhadonesessionon
it,soIcan'tjudgeyet,butafteronesessionIwashighasakite,andIwasfeelingdelightedwithmyselfandtheworldforabout24hours
afterwards.
TheGrahamPotentializerismuchmoreexpensivethantheothers.Ithinkwhatwillhappen,thewayit'llreachthemassmarket,isnotpeople
buyingPotentializers,butpeoplesettingupplaceslikewithLillytanks,whereyoucangoinandrentanhouronaGrahamPotentializerlike
youcangoinandrentanhourinaLillytankinmostcitiesthesedays.WhenIgoaroundthecountryonmytours,Ialwaysaskmy
audiences,canyougetanhourinaLillyisolationtankhere,andinthelastyearIhaven'tbeenanyplacewheretheanswerwasn'tyes.No
matterwhereyougointhiscountrynow,youcanrenttimeinaLillytank.Ithinkinacoupleofyears,you'llbeabletorenttimeonaGraham

Potentializer,whereveryougo.
ThelatestoneI'vetriedistheMindMirror,whichisthemostsophisticatedbiofeedbacksystemtocomealong.Itgivesyouaninstantaneous
reading.IfoundoutI'vegotadisorganizedawakenedbrain,Ifoundthatveryinteresting,Ikindofsuspectedit.
DAB:Whatexactlyisadisorganizedawakenedbrain?
RAW:Well,it'sapatternthat'ssimilartotheawakenedbrainstatemeasuredinZenmastersandyogis,butit'snotquite,it'salittlemore
raggedy.It'susuallyfoundinscientistsandartists,andsomepsychics.
DAB:Doyouthinkthesenewbraintechnologytoolsandtheflotationtanksaregoodenoughtoreplacesay,LSDandotherchemicalsfor
brainchange?Arethosenolongerrelevant?
RAW:Ithinktheavant-gardeedgeoftheconsciousnessrevolution,theHEADRevolution,ismovingawayfromchemicalstowards
machines,becauseyoucangetmuchmoreprecisecontrol.Moleculesaregreatbigungainlythingstothrowatyourbraincomparedto
electronicimpulses.Ithinkprettysoon,withinfiveyears,we'llbeabletohavealittlecomputerkeyboard,andjustpunchintherightcodeto
sendtherightimpulseintoyourbrain,tohaveanybrainexperienceyouwant.Thefirsttimeyoutastedchocolateicecream,youjustpunchin
therightcode,yougetthatbackyourfirstsexualexperience,youpunchintherightcodeyougetthatsamadhi,youpunchintherightcode,
yougetthat.Andsoon.Ithinkthatcan'tbemorethanfiveyearsaway,thewaythistechnologyismoving.
DAB:Inthe70'syouandLearycameupwiththeSMIILEformula,whichstandsforSpaceMigration,IntelligenceIncrease,andLife
Extension.Doyoustillfindthosethreethingstobeimportant?
RAW:Oh,verymuchso.Spacemigrationistremendouslyexcitingtome,becauseit'stheopeningofanewfrontier.Historically,everytimea
newfrontierhasopened,there'sbeenabigupsurgeofcreativeenergies,aRenaissanceeffect,acreativityboom,andthehumanracebadly
needsthatatthispoint.Also,Ithinkmostoftheenergyproblemsthatit'sfashionabletoworryaboutwillbesolvedwhenwegetoutofthe
closedsystemofoneplanetandstartdealingwithmanyworlds.Whenwehavehundredsandhundredsofspacecoloniesdottedalloverthe
earth-moonsystem,orasfaroutastheasteroidbeltprobably,thentherewon'tbeanymoreenergyproblem,there'ssodamnmuchenergy
outtherecomparedtotheenergyavailableonthesurfaceoftheEarth.Anditwillalsosolvethepopulationproblem,moreandmorepeople
willbemigratingintospace,I'msure.Iwanttogomyself,somepeoplethinkthat'swhimsicalinamanmyage,butI'mexpecting
rejuvenationtechnologywillbealonginthenext10-15years...
DAB:TheLifeExtensionpartofSMIILE...
RAW:Yes,Ifigure20yearsfromnow,I'llbe20yearsyoungerinsteadof20yearsolder.
DAB:Soyouthinkyou'llmakeitintospaceonedaythen?
RAW:Oh,absolutely!
DAB:Doyouthinkyou'llrunintoanyUFO's?Youtalkaboutthatalot,doyoubelieveinUFO's?
RAW:Ofcourse!Idon'tknowwhattheyare,buttodenythemislikedenyingfrogsfallingoutoftheskyorbrickwalls,thesearevery
obviousthings.Youmayhavedifferentexplanationsofthem.Idon'tknowwhatUFO'sare,Idon'tknowwhetherthey'respaceships,ortime
ships,oraspecialkindofhallucinationtriggeredbyabnormalelectromagneticconditions...that'satheorysuggestedbyapsychologist
namedPersinger,whichIfindverypersuasive,butnottotallyconvincing.Ormaybethey'rearchetypesescapedfromthecollective
unconscious,asJungsuggested,ormaybethey'reallheatinversions.Idon'tknow,maybethereisnoonetheorythataccountsforallof
them.Butthey'recertainlythere,tosaythatthey'renotthereislikesayingthatCharlieChaplindoesn'texist.CharlieChaplinmayhavebeen
anactor,butheexistedinsomesense.CharlieChaplinandUFO'sareatleastasrealastheGrossNationalProduct.
DAB:We'vecoveredtheSpaceMigrationpartoftheSMIILEformula,whataboutIntelligenceIncrease?
RAW:Well,IthinkthesebrainmachinesI'mtalkingaboutaregoingtoplayatremendousroleinraisingintelligence.Graham,whoclaimsto
domorescientificmeasurementthananybodyelseinthebrain-machinefield,heclaimshecandemonstrateadefiniteincreaseinIQin
anybodywhohasusedthePotentializermorethan10times.AndI'veseen,Ithinkit'sprettyclearthatmostofthesemachineshavesome
effectontheIQ,aswellasgeneralhealthandtranquilization.
DAB:LifeExtension:YouwereonceDirectorofthePrometheusSociety,right?Weren'ttheyinvolvedinthat?
RAW:IwastheWesternDirector.
DAB:Doesthatgroupstillexistandareyoustillinvolvedwiththem?
RAW:Isortoflosttouchwiththem,Idon'tknowwhethertheystillexistornot.I'velivedinIrelandforfiveyears,Isortoflosttouchwith
theL5Society,thePrometheusSociety,andalotofthingsIwasinvolvedinbeforeIwentovertoEurope.NowI'mtryingtoreestablish
connectionswithgroupsthatinterestme.
DAB:WhatistheL5Society?
RAW:That'sasocietyofscientistsandothersthatareconcernedwithcolonizingtheL5area,whichisLaGrangePoint5.Thereare5La
Grangepointsaroundthemoon,whichareplaceswherethegravityofEarthandMoonareapproximatelyequaltoeachother,andthey're
goodplacestobuildspacecolonies,forengineeringreasons.L5usedtobeconsideredthebest.ThelatestcalculationsI'veseenindicate
thatL4maybebetter,buttheL5Societyhasalreadygotthatname,soIdoubtthey'regoingtochangeit,evenifweendupcolonizingL4
insteadofL5.
DAB:You'vebeenlivinginIrelandforthelast5-6years,nowyou'rebackhereinCalifornia.Whatareyoucurrentplans?

RAW:Oh,IintendtohangaroundLAforquiteawhile,butI'mdoingalotoftraveling,too.Sofarthisyear,it'sonlyApril,sofarthisyear
I'vebeeninPhoenix,Dallas,NewYork,NewJerseyandBoulder,Colorado.NextweekIgobacktoAustin,Texas,andattheendofMay
I'mgoingovertoEuropeanddoinglecturesalloverGermanyandSwitzerlandandHolland.AndIintendtokeeptraveling,Ifindit
exhilaratingtobeacitizenoftheplanet,ratherthanofoneparticularplace.
DAB:AreyouplanningtogobacktoIrelandeventually?
RAW:Well,IamgoingbacktoIrelandtopickupalotofmypropertyIlefttherelastFall.WhenIcameoverherethelasttimeIwasdoing
alecturetour,Ididn'texpectI'dgethiredtowriteamovie,soIdidn'tgobacktoIrelandtogetallmygearrightaway.Iwastryingtofigure
outhowlongwillIbeonthemovie,howlongdoIwanttobehere,andsoon,I'vegotinvolvedinseveralotherprojectsaroundHollywood
andit'sobviousI'mgoingtobehereforquiteawhile,soI'mbringingmoreofmygearoverfromIrelandwhileI'mdoingtheEuropeanlecture
tour.Butnothingispermanent,ImaybelivinginSwitzerlandinfiveyears,orImaybelivinginMexico,ormaybeinJapan.
DAB:Iunderstandyou'vebeenworkingonabookaboutJamesJoyce.
RAW:Well,IwasworkingonabookonJoyce,andIfinallydecidedthatforfinancialreasons,thekindofmoneyyoumakeoutofwriting
scholarlybooksonIrishwritersisnotreallyhuge.I'mpublishingaboutathirdoftheJoycebooktogetherwithessaysonotherwriters,under
thetitleCoincidance,andthat'sdueoutanydaynowfromFalconPress.MeanwhileI'mworkingonmorecommercialventures.Therewill
comeatime,sometimeinthefuture,whenIwillwriteawholebookonJoyce.Meanwhile,I'vegotathirdofabookonJoycebound
togetherwithtwo-thirdsofabookonothersubjects.
DAB:WhatisyourfascinationwithJoyce?
RAW:Icouldtalkalldayaboutthat!Joycewasmoreinterestedinsynchronicitymorethananyotherwriterbeforeme,andheinfluencedme
agreatdeal.MyfascinationwithsynchronicitygrowsmoreoutofJoycethanoutofJung.UlyssesandFinnegan'sWakeareallabout
synchronicity,andtheycameoutlongbeforeJungeverwroteanythingonthesubject.Joycefascinatesmebecauseofmanyotherthings.In
Ulysses,hewasthefirstonetowritearelativisticnovel,thefirstEinsteiniannovel.EveryothernovelbeforeUlysseshadonepointofview,
whichwassupposedtobetheobjectivepointofview,andinUlysses,Joycerefusestogiveyouanobjectivepointofview.Hegivesyou
about54differentpointsofview,andleavesituptoyoutodecidewhichofthevariousnarrativevoicesyou'regoingtobelieve.AndIfind
thataveryappropriatestyleforthe20thCentury,it'sentirelycompatiblewithrelativityandquantummechanics...theamountofdeception
andpropagandainthe20thCenturyworld,whereyoucan'ttakeanythingatfacevalue.It'scompatiblewithmodernphilosophy,everything
fromNietzscheandWittgensteinon,we'velearnedmoreandmoreabouthowthemindcreatesitsownreality-tunnelit'sentirelycompatible
withmodernpsychologyandneurologyandculturalanthropology.
Idon'tseewhyanybodyisstillwritingVictoriannovels,IthinkeverybodyshouldbewritingJoyceannovels,tobecontemporary,tobe
compatiblewithmodernscience,modernphilosophyandmoderncivilizationingeneral.Peoplewhoarewritingpre-Joyceannovels,itseems
tomelikethey'reridingaroundinastagecoachinsteadofusingacaroraplane.
DAB:Ofallthebooksyou'vewritten,howmanyarenovels,6or7maybe?
RAW:Itdependsonhowyoucount.IfyoucounttheIlluminatustrilogyasonenovel,yougetadifferentfigure.Ifyoucountthe
Schrdinger'sCattrilogyasonenovel,yougetadifferentfigure.IfyoucounttheIlluminatustrilogyasthree,andtheSchrdinger'sCat
trilogyasthree,thenIseemtohaveninenovelsinprint.
DAB:AndtheotherthreeareMasksoftheIlluminati...
RAW:TheEarthWillShake,andTheWidow'sSon.
DAB:Aren'tthosetwobookspartofatrilogy,too?
RAW:No,that'spartofapentology.
DAB:Apentology?
RAW:Yes,that'saseriesoffivebooks.
DAB:Andsofartwoofthemhavecomeout.
RAW:That'sright.I'mworkingonthethird,whichiscalledNature'sGod.
DAB:Andwhatisthebasicconceptbehindthatseriesofbooks?
RAW:Well,thatseriesdealswithEuropean,andtosomeextent,Americanhistory,between1764and1824.Thatwasaperiodinwhichall
theruleschanged,everything,thewholeWesternworldwentthroughatotalchange.Wewentfromfeudal,agriculturalmonarchytocapitalist
democracyandindustrialism.Everythingchanged,thestyleofmusicchanged,wewentfromBaroquetoRomantic,everythingchanged.
Philosophychanged,itwasinthatperiodthatDavidHume'sbooksappeared,knockingthebottomoutofallpreviousphilosophy.Adam
Smith'sWealthofNationsappearedthere,theDeclarationofIndependence,ofcourse.I'mtakingthatasamodeltoshowhowrevolutions
work.Theyworkonmanylevelsbesidesviolentrevolutions,therearenon-violentrevolutions,butthey'realltiedtogether.We'regoing
throughaperiodlikethatrightnow,andwhatgotmystartedwritingthosenovelswastogiveanexampleofapreviousperiodthatwasas
revolutionaryastheperiodwe'relivingthroughtoshowsomeofthegenerallawsofwhathappenswhensocietygoesthroughrapid
transition.We'regoingthroughadozenrevolutionsatoncerightnow,too.
DAB:Sothenewnovelscouldalmostbethoughtofasanearlier...Forexample,theIlluminatusTrilogytookplaceintheseventies,right?
Sothenewseriestakesasimilarview,butfromanearlierculturalrevolution.
RAW:Well,thepentologydealswith1764to1824.MasksoftheIlluminatidealswiththe1890'sto1914.Illuminatusissetinthe70's,

buthasflashbackstothe1930'sandeverythinginbetweenthe30'sandthe70's.TheSchrdinger'sCattrilogyissetinthe80'sandthe
early90's,andwhenIwriteafewmoreandfitthemintothepattern,I'llhaveacompletehistoryoftheWesternworldfrom1764to2001.
DAB:That'squiteafeat!Doyouhaveafavoriteofthebooksthatyou'vewritten?Ithinkmypersonalfavoriterightnowisthe
Schrdinger'sCattrilogy.
RAW:Oh,thankyou,that'stheonethatgotmorebadreviews...youknow,that'sabouttobereprinted,I'mhappytosay.Butthatgot
morebadreviewsthananythingelseI'veeverwritten,itonlygottwogoodreviewsIeversaw.The"LATimes"saiditwashilarious,multidimensional,alaughaparagraph,somethinglikethat."NewScientist"inEnglandhadtheothergoodreview,theysaiditwasthemost
scientificofallscience-fictionnovels.Everybodyelsesaiditwasunintelligible,deliberatelyobscure,pretentious,incoherent,everythingthey
sayaboutJoyce!
DAB:Right,likewhenFinnegan'sWakecameout.
RAW:Yes,exactly,justlikeFinnegan'sWake.Asamatteroffact,it'smyattempttotranslateFinnegan'sWakeintoaquantumcomedy.
EventhetitlehasthesamerhythmasFinnegan'sWake:Finnegan'sWake,Schrdinger'sCat,Finnegan'sWake,Schrdinger'sCat,there
areallsortsofanalogiesbuiltin.
DAB:YouappearedonapunkrockalbumbyabandcalledtheChocolateBiscuitConspiracy?
RAWNo,thatwasthetitleofthealbum,thenameofthebandistheGoldenHorde.
DAB:Howdidyougetinvolvedwiththatproject,andwhatexactlydidyoudoonthat?
RAW:Well,theycameuptomeafteralectureinDublin,andsaid,we'reapunkrockgroup.AndIsaid,yes,Ikindofsuspectedthatfrom
thewayyou'redressed.Andtheysaid,we'dliketohaveyouonournextrecord.AndIsaid,hey,I'dlovethat,I'dlovetomakeapunkrock
record.Notmanymenmyagegetinvitedtomakepunkrockrecords.AndIwroteawholebunchoflyrics,andtheypickedouttheones
theyliked,andthentheyluredmedowntothestudiotoimprovisesomesurrealistpoetryinbetweeninthesongs,andsoit'sacombination
ofrockandpoetryandsurrealismandgnosticism.It'sbasicallyCeltic-Gnosticpunkrock.
DAB:Isthisalbumavailableanywherethatyouknowof?
RAW:Itseemstobereleasedonaneed-to-knowbasis.PeoplehavefoundcopiesofitintheUnitedStates.Ihaveseenthem,Ihave
autographedthem.It'sveryhardtofind,butnotimpossible.
DABYouhaveanotheralbumcalled"SecretsofPower,"madeupoftalksyougave...
RAW:No,thatwasastand-upcomedyactIdidinanightclubinEngland.I'mdoingstand-upcomedythesedays,justbecauseI'venever
doneitbefore.I'vedonestand-upcomedyinLondon,Dublin,NewYork,SanFranciscoandacoupleofothersmallerplacesIdon'tquite
recall.IthinkI'mgettingbetteratitallthetime,andI'menjoyingit,I'mhavingagreattime.It'satremendouschallenge.Whenyou'redoinga
lecture,orevenaworkshop,theydon'thavetobelaughingallthetime.Butwhenyou'reinanightclub,they'vegottobelaughingallthetime
oryoufeellikeyou'redyingupthere,anditgivesyouatremendousadrenalinerush.It'sthenextbestthingtoskydiving,asfarasscaringthe
helloutofyourselfforfun.AsEdmundKeansaidonhisdeathbed,SirEdmundKeanthegreatBritishactor,hislastwordswere,"Dyingis
easy.Comedyishard."Anditreallyis,soIenjoythechallenge.
DAB:Leary'sbeendoingsomestand-upcomedy,too.Haveyouseenhisact?
RAW:Oh,yes!
DAB:Backtothealbum:The"SecretsofPower"albumisreleasedontheIlluminatedRecordslabel.Howwasthatarranged?
RAW:Well.theboysdownatIlluminatiHeadquarterssaid,Bob,wewantyoutoput...no,no,I'mnotsupposedtorevealthat!Thecover
storyisthatthepeoplewhostartedtherecordcompanynameditaftermyIlluminatusnovels.AndthenwhentheydiscoveredIwasin
Ireland,andtheywereinLondon,theydecidedtohavemedoarecordforthem.That'sthecoverstory,anyway,andI'llsticktothat!
Oh,thismorningIlookedat"BrideoftheMonster"forthefirsttime.
DAB:"BrideoftheMonster"?
RAW:It'sanEdWoodmovie,hemadetheworld'sworstmovies.Hemade"Plan9FromOuterSpace,"youmusthaveheardofthat."Bride
oftheMonster"hasBelaLugosilive,insteadofhis(Wood's)wife'schiropractorpretendingtobeBela,asin"Plan9"?ThisonehasBela
Lugosiwhilehewasstillalive,andTorJohnson,theguywhoplayedthesheriffin"Plan9,"heplaysBelaLugosi'smoronicassistant.Bela
playsaclassicmadscientist,anditisjustasbadas"Plan9,"it'sincrediblybad!EdWoodwasabackwardsgenius,hesetouttomake
horrormoviesandhedidn'tknowhowtodoit,andheendedupmaking,unintentionally,hemadethefunniestmoviesevertocomeoutof
Hollywood.Eversceneinthismoviewhichtriestoscareyouissostupidthatyoubustoutlaughing.EdWoodisproofthatMenckenwas
wrong.Menckensaid,"NobodyeverwentbrokeunderestimatingtheintelligenceoftheAmericanpeople."Well,EdWooddidgobrokeby
underestimatingtheirintelligence.Itispossible,youcanunderestimatetheintelligenceofthemasses!
DAB:So,you'reafanofbadsciencefictionmovies?
RAW:Oh,yes.Badmoviesaregenerallyjustplainbad,andyoucan'tstandthem,butbadsciencefictionandbadhorrorisfunny.Andthe
worseitis,thebetteritis,becausethelessconvincing,themoreamateurish,themorestupidandclumsyitis,thefunnieritgets.Like"Plan
9,"withthatimmortalline,"Themessagecouldn'tgetthroughbecauseoftheweatherconditionsinouterspace.""BrideoftheMonster"has
somereallywonderfulstuff,too.There'sanatomicexplosionattheendandthemaincharactersareallstandingaround,there'snofall-out,
noblindingwhitelight,noneofthesideeffectsofarealatomicexplosion,justamushroomshapedcloudandtheystandthereandlookatit.
Andthechiefofpolicesays,"HemeddledinGod'sdomain,"whichisprobablythecorniestlineinthehistoryoffilms,butthistogetherwith

anatomicexplosionthatisn'tanatomicexplosion,it'sabsolutelyhilarious.IthinkthereshouldbeanEdWoodmemorialtoiletsomewherein
Hollywood.Hebroughtmovies,hebroughthismoviesdowntothecrap-houselevel!
DAB:Whataboutgoodscience-fiction?Alotofyourbooksareconsideredscience-fiction,althoughtheyareoftenhardtocategorize.Do
youhaveanycurrentfavoritescience-fictionwriters?
RAW:TheguywhowroteNeuromancer,WilliamGibson.I'dsayhe'smycurrentfavorite.PhillipK.Dick,buthe'sdead,ortheyclaimheis.
Theytookthelibertyofburyinghimanyway.TherearepeoplewhothinkPhilisn'tdead,youknow.
DAB:LikesomepeoplethinkJimMorrisonisn'treallydead.
RAW:That'sanotherinterestingquestion.WhydidsomanyphotographsdisappearfromtheLAPoliceDepartmentconnectedwiththe
BobbyKennedyassassination?
DAB:OneofyourrecentbooksisTheNewInquisition:IrrationalRationalismandtheCitadelofScience.Maybeyoucouldtellusa
littlebitaboutthisbook.
RAW:Icoinedthetermirrationalrationalismbecausethosepeopleclaimtoberationalists,butthey'regovernedbysuchaheavybodyof
taboos.They'resofearful,andsohostile,andsonarrow,andfrightened,anduptightanddogmatic.Ithoughtitwasafascinatingparadox:
irrationalrationalists.LateronIfoundoutIdidn'tinventthat.SomebodyelsewhowroteanarticleonCSICOP,that'sthegrouptheyall
belongto:CommitteeforScientificInvestigationofClaimsoftheParanormal.Somebodyelsewhowroteaboutthemalsousedtheterm
irrationalrationalism.It'sahardtermtoresistwhenyouthinkaboutthosepeople.
IwrotethisbookbecauseIgottiredsatirizingfundamentalistChristianity,Ihaddoneenoughofthatinmyotherbooks.Idecidedtosatirize
fundamentalistmaterialismforachange,becausethetwoareequallycomical.Allfundamentalismiscomical,unlessyoubelieveinit,inwhich
caseyou'dbecomeafanaticyourself,andwanteverybodyelsetoshareyourfundamentalism.Butifyou'renotafundamentalistyourself,
fundamentalistsarethefunniestpeopleontheplanet.ThematerialistfundamentalistsarefunnierthantheChristianfundamentalists,because
theythinkthey'rerational!
DAB:Theycallthemselvesskeptical.
RAW:Yes,butthey'renotskeptical!They'reneverskepticalaboutanythingexceptthethingstheyhaveaprejudiceagainst.Noneofthem
eversaysanythingskepticalabouttheAMA,oraboutanythinginestablishmentscienceoranyentrencheddogma.They'reonlyskeptical
aboutnewideasthatfrightenthem.They'reactuallydogmaticallycommittedtowhattheyweretaughtwhentheywereincollege,whichwas
about1948-53,somewhereinthatperiod.Ifyougobackandstudywhatwasbeingtaughtincollegeinthosedaysasthelatestscientific
theories,youfindoutthat'swhatthesepeoplestillbelieve.Theyhaven'thadanewideain30years,that'sallthathappenedtothem.They
justrigidified,theycrystallizedaround1960.
DAB:TheAmazingRandirecently"debunked"UriGeller,theguywhobendsmetal.WhatdoyouthinkabouttheAmazingRandiin
particular?Iunderstandthathehasinvestigatedsomeofthesefaithhealers,he'sdebunkedsomeofthat.Sosomeoftheworkthathe'sdone
seemstoberational.Whatwouldbeanexampleofsomethingirrationalthathe'sdone?
RAW:Well,hiswholecritiqueoftheresearchofPlutofandTarg,atStanfordResearchInstitute.Randiwasnotthere,hewasnotonthe
scene,andyetheclaimstoknowwhatwasgoingontherebetterthanthetwoscientistswhoweresupervisingit.Thisimplies100%accurate
telepathy.HewasinNewJerseyatthetimeoftheexperiments.Theonlywayhecouldknowbetterthanthescientistsrunningtheproject
whatwasgoingonintheirlaboratoryisifhehad100%accuratetelepathy.Nowhe'sofferinga$100,000rewardtoanybodywith100%
accuratetelepathyheshouldgiveallthemoneytohimself!Howelsecouldheknow?Ifhewasn'tthere,hecan'tknow,he'sonlyguessing,
andtotheextendthathethinksheknows,anddoesn'trealizehe'sguessing,that'swhatImeanbyirrationalrationalism.He'slostalltrackof
reality.Hedoesn'tknowwhenhe'sguessinganymore.
I'veheardhimmakechargesagainstscientiststhatremindmeofJoeMcCarthy.Theonlyexcuseforsuchthingsisthatsuchapersondoesn't
realizehe'sguessinganymore,hethinksanysuspicionthatcrosseshismindmustbetrue.Andthat'stheonlywayyoucanforgivethem,
becauseeveryethicalsystemhassomeequivalenttotheBibleinjunctionagainstbearingfalsewitnessagainstyourneighbor.Anybodywho
goesaroundchargingsomanypeoplewithbeingfraudsandcriminalsandwhatnot,theonlywaytoforgivethemisthattheydon'tunderstand
theseriousnessofwhatthey'redoing.Andtheybelievetheyareinfallible.Ifhehadanysenseoffallibility,hecouldn'tdosuchthings.
DAB:Let'stalkaboutthewholeNewAgemovementhappeningnow,ShirleyMcClaine,crystalhealingandallthat:Didn'tIhearsomething
aboutyouwritingabookaboutthat?
RAW:Yes,I'mwritingabookaboutNewAgesewage.
DAB:NewAgesewage?
RAW:Yes,IgottheideafromWilliamErwinThompson,theanthropologist.HepronouncesNewAgeas"Newage"soitrhymeswith
sewage.AndIthought,boytheresureisenoughofthataround,isn'tthere,NewAgesewage.Justbecausethere'saslightchancepeople
maynothavereadmyotherbooks,andmayreadTheNewInquisition,andthinkI'monlyagainstonetypeoffundamentalism,Idecided
tomakethesequeltoit,anattackontheimbecilesontheotherside.Andso,I'mgoingtotearintoRamthaandalltheseothersageswho
comeback...themainthingRamthaprovesisyoucanbedead40,000yearsandstillbeabore.Thatmaybeinterestingnews,butthat's..
.EverythingI'veheardfromRamthasoundslikeaneditorialfromtheReader'sDigestin1958orsomething.
Thentherearetheseecologicalloonieswhowouldliketoabolishthehumanracesothatthetreescouldliveinpeaceagain.Ithinkthey're
kindoffunny.Thenthere'stheseanimalrightsactivistswhoalsoseemtohaveaverylowopinionofhumanity.Idon'tknowwhytheydon'tall
commitsuicide,andgetridofthemost,Imean,ifyouhatehumanity,you'vegottoregardyourselfasoneoftheprimeoffenders,because
youknowyourselfbetterthantherestofhumanity.Iftheyhavealowviewofhumanity,theymusthaveaverylowviewofthemselves.Iwish
they'dremovethemselvesfromthesceneandstopannoyingtherestofus.Ilikepeople,Ilikehumanity.

DAB:Exceptfortheoneswhodon'tlikepeople?
RAW:Well,Ilikethem,too,Ijustfindthemabitofadrag!
DAB:IsthePopeinfallible?
RAW:IregardthatasagameruleoftheCatholicgame.IfyouwanttoplaytheCatholicgame,you'vegottoacceptthatrule.Likeifyou
wanttoplaybaseball,you'vegottoaccepttheruleoftheumpire,whoisconsideredinfallible.Idon'tbelieveumpiresorpopesaredefacto
infallible,it'sjustagamerule.IchoosenottoplaytheCatholicgame.I'dfindmyselfterriblyconstrictedtoliveinaworldwheresomerightwingPolishschlimazelissupposedtobeinfallible.I'dsooneracceptRandiasinfalliblethanthePope.
DAB:Don'tyou,infact,handoutPopecards?
RAW:Ohyes,Ido.KirbyHensleysetoutbackinthe50'stomakeeveryman,womanandchild,andothermiscellaneous,ontheplaneta
clergy-entity.
DAB:Clergy-entity?
RAW:Yes,wellclergy-personhashumanchauvinisminit,andHensleygotoverthatveryearlyinhiscareer.Afterordainingallsortsofmen
andwomen,hestartedordainingchimpanzeesandparrots,andhousecatsandallsortsofcritters.AfriendofminenamedMalaclypsethe
Youngergottheideathatit'snotenoughtomakeeverybodyaclergy-entity,let'smakeeverybodyaPope.HestartedprintingupPopecards
anddistributingthem,andIthoughtitwasagoodidea,soIstarteddistributingPopecardstoo,andthereareoh,acouplehundredatleast
DiscordianswhoaredistributingPopecards.
Onlyrecently,theVaticanannouncedthatCardinalscangiveindulgencesovertelevision,whichraisessomeinterestingtheologicalproblems,
becauseifyoumakeavideotapeofitwhenaCardinalisgivinganindulgenceandyouplaythevideotapeoverandover,doyouget
perpetualindulgence?AndthencanyoujointheSistersofPerpetualIndulgenceinSanFrancisco?TheJesuitshaven'tansweredthat,yet.
Butwhilethey'reworkingonit,Ifigure,well,iftheycandoindulgencesovertelevision,Icandopontificationsovertelevision,orradio.So
everytimeI'monatelevisionorradioshow,ImakethewholeaudiencePopes.
Asamatteroffact,everybodywhoislisteningtomerightnow,iftheytakeadeepbreathandrelaxwhileIsaythemagicformula,
"Spectacles,testicles,brandy,cigars,"they'reallPopes.Everybodylistening,they'reallnowasinfallibleastheguyinRome,orRandi,or
CarlSagan,ortheAyatollahKhomeini,oranyotherauthorityontheplanet.You'reallequallyinfallible,andtakecrapfromnobody!
DAB:Andtheythoughttheywerejustlisteningtotheradio!
RAW:Yes,theydidn'tknowIwasabouttoliberatethemtotally,didthey?

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NEXTPAGE

Issue#1:ThePremierIssue
PAGE21OF34

23QUESTIONSWITHROBERTANTONWILSON
ANewInterview

< 19 20 21 22 23 >

byj.flinnakroyd

about|search|print|s h o p|podcast

tableofcontent
RobertAntonWilson"is"one

[editorial]
Editorial

whoisnot"is."Perhapswe
byMarkGivens....page2

maydescribehimasa
psychedelicphilosopher,a

[editorial]
HowIBecameAMungBeing
byJ.FlinnAkroyd....page3
[notices]
Announcements

MungGearbyTheEditors
TheMisfitLibrary
TheLittleGallery
........................page4

postmoderntrickster,an
intellectualcomedian,atwister
rippingthroughthepsyche.He
firstcametoprominenceasan
editorofPlayboyinthe1960s.
Duringthattimeofmagickhe
gotinvolvedwiththe
Discordians,a"newreligion
disguisedasacomplicated

[poetry]
TheFirstsTime

joke,"or"acomplicatedjoke
disguisedasanewreligion."
byRikAlbatros....page5

AlongwithRobertShea,hecoauthoredtheIlluminatus!

[artwork]
untitled

trilogyofnovels,aworkof
byJulianLawrence....page6

mind-bending(fiction?)that
weavedtogethermultiple

[shortstory]
MyEnsenadaSurprise

conspiracytheoriesand

byRogerGee....page7

elevatedDiscordianismtotrue
cultstatus.Aclosefriendof

[poetry]
MotivationalCreativityinAdvertising:a
poem
byMarkGivens....page8
[shortstory]
FearandLoathinginWal-Mart
byJ.FlinnAkroyd....page9

TimothyLeary,hesharedDr.
Leary'spassionsforradical
psychologyandfuturism.His
bookPrometheusRisingmelded
modelagnosticismtoLeary's8circuitmodelofthebrainto

(clickonimageforafullsizedversion)
"illustrationfromOwenPlummerMontreal1976(GramaMirror
TreeBark)"byJasonMcLeanandMarkConnery

createasystemthattaught
[shortstory]
TheGhostofShakerCreek
byHowardDrucker...page10
[reviews]
ViewsandReviews

ListeningtotheRadiobyCranky
SixCentsandNataliebyC a s h
Nexus
TheSneezebyMarkGivens
.......................page11

peoplehowtodeconstructdogmaticpersonalbeliefsystems.Hisnumerous
otherbooksexploredtopicssuchasquantummechanics,alternateuniverses,
non-Aristotelianlogicsystems,sexmagick,WilhelmReich,JamesJoyceand
OrsonWelles.Hismodelagnosticapproachtoinquirymakeshimaunique
writer,oneoffewwhocanslipseamlesslyfromrationalistscientificthinkingto
non-materialistmetaphysicalspeculation.
Whilehehasstruggledwithpost-poliosyndromeinrecentyears,heremains
activeinpropagatinghisvariouspassions.LanceBauscher,CodyMcClintock
andRobertDofflemyer's2003filmMaybeLogicexploredandpresented

[poetry]
Brad'sCivilWarHaiku

Wilsonianconceptswrappedinsubtleyetexplosivecolorandrhythm,afitting
byBrad...page12

tributetohisideas.ThisprojectspunoffintotheMaybeLogicAcademy,a
learninginstitutethatis

[prose]
Vectors

"groundedinthephilosophyandperspectiveofmaybelogic,anapproachwhich

byDavid"Starchy"Grant...page13
[politics]
TheRobotLincolnProject

emphasizesthefallibilityandrelativityofperceptionandtendstoapproach
informationandobservationswithquestions,probabilitiesandmultiple
perspectivesratherthanabsolutetruths."NewFalconPublicationswillsoonbe
releasinghisnewbookEmailToTheUniverse.

byR.S.Deese...page14
[artwork]
PosterfromaRestaurantinSanDiego

(Editor'snote:Thisinterviewwasconductedintwoparts,inAugust
2004andMarch2005.)

byBenMuggin...page15
[poetry]
recurringawakenightmare#2
byJohnDarnielle...page16

Youhaveanewbookcomingoutcalled"TaleoftheTribe."What'sthat
allabout?

[prose]
NotesforaPoemthatWon'tBeWritten
byCavendish...page17

IchangedthetitletoEMAILTOTHEUNIVERSE.It'saboutJamesJoyce,
Daoism,InternetandAleisterCrowley,plusmyusualcraziness.

[manifesto]
TheNihilNationManifesto

Itseemsalotofyourwritingshavereallyconnectedwithpeople,and

byMarkTeppo...page18
[musicreview]
TheCongress-"JungleMercies"
byJebEbben
(withmusicbyTheCongress)...page19

perhapseveninfluencedtheirthinkingandactivities.Becauseofthis
effectonyourfanbase,somehavesuggestedyoutobea"cultfigure."
TomakeacleverlittleRAW-likeslidehere,thisseemsappropriate,
givenyourearlyparticipationintheDiscordianSocietyandyourmany
writingsontheIlluminati(asecretcultthatmayormaynotexist.)
SurfingthewebonemayfindDiscordiangroupsandreferencestoEris,

[artists]
PrivacyIssues

goldenapples,theLawoftheFives,thenumber23,aswellasother
relatedideas.Memesyousentoutintotheworldtwenty,thirtyyears
byCashNexus

(withartworkbyJasonMcLeanandMark
Connery)...page20
[interview]
23QuestionsWithRobertAntonWilson
byJ.FlinnAkroyd
(withartworkbyJasonMcLeanandMark
Connery)...page21

agocontinuetothriveandflourish.Howdoyoufeelaboutthislegacyof
havingseededsuchadiversityofeclecticmemes?
It'sbothpleasingandflattering,ofcourse,butI'llfeelmuchhappierwhen
MaybeLogic,theSnafuLawandtheCosmicSchmuckLawgetseededjust
aswidely,orevenmorewidely.
Let'sseedthemmorewidelyrighthere!Canyouexplaintoourreaders
what(MaybeLogic,theSnafuLawandtheCosmicSchmuckLaw)are?

[poetry]
TenVignettes
byJebEbben...page22

MaybeLogicisalabelthatgotstuckonmyideasbyfilmmakerLance
Bauscher.Idecideditfits.Icertainlyrecognizethecentralimportanceinmy

[prose]
GoingForIt

thinking--orinmystumblingandfumblingeffortstothink--ofnonbyRobertDayton...page23

Aristoteliansystems.ThatincludesvonNeumann'sthree-valuedlogic[true,
false,maybe],Rappoport'sfour-valuedlogic[true,false,indeterminate,

[shortstory]
Baby'sFirstChinatownShow
byAmyMaloof...page24
[prose]
LetterToASchizophrenic
byJ.FlinnAkroyd...page25
[recipes]
Recipes

CantaloupePiebyMarkGivens
(withartworkbyAmandaWoodward)
.......................page26

meaningless],Korzybski'smulti-valuedlogic[degreesofprobability.]and
alsoMahayanaBuddhistparadoxicallogic[it"is"A.it"is"notA,it"is"both
AandnotA,it"is"neitherAnornotA].But,asanextraordinarilystupid
fellow,Ican'tusesuchsystemsuntilIreducethemtotermsasimplemind
likeminecanhandle,soIjustpreachthatwe'dallthinkandactmore
sanelyifwehadtouse"maybe"alotmoreoften.Canyouimagineaworld
withJerryFalwellhollering"MaybeJesus'was'thesonofGodandmaybe
hehatesGaypeopleasmuchasIdo"--oreverytowerinIslam
resoundingwith"There'is'noGodexceptmaybeAllahandmaybe
Mohammedishisprophet"?
TheSnafulawholdsthat,thegreateryourpowertopunish,theless
factualfeedbackyouwillreceive.Ifyoucanfirepeoplefortellingyouwhat

[shortstory]
ALoser'sFreedom

youdon'twanttohear,youwillonlyhearwhatyouwant.Thislawseems

byTimHatch...page27

toapplytoallauthoritariancontraptions,especiallygovernmentsand
corporations.Concretely,IsuspectBozoknowsfactuallylessaboutthe

[poetry]
NewBeginnings

worldthananydogcatcherinBiloxi.TheCosmicSchmucklawholdsthat[1]
byJebEbben...page28

themoreoftenyoususpectyoumaybethinkingoractinglikeaCosmic
Schmuck,thelessofaCosmicSchmuckyouwillbecome,yearbyyear,and

[poetry]
SevenLayersofDoubleHappiness

[2]ifyouneversuspectyoumightthinkoractlikeaCosmicSchmuck,you
willremainaCosmicSchmuckforlife.

byJ.FlinnAkroyd
(withartworkbyJasonMcLeanandMark
Connery)...page29
[comics]
Comics(2pages)

MauricebyJulianLawrence
ChildrenAreStupidbyHoward
Drucker
TheRopebyMarkGivens
GustownbyMarkGivens

CanE-primerevolutionizetheEnglishlanguage?
Isurehopeso,butitneedshelp,likemorecomputersonlineandmore
pot.LOTSmorepot.

WhatisthepurposeofyourMaybeLogicAcademy,andwhoelseis
involved?Justwhattheheckisgoingonthere?

.......................page30

IwanttouseInternettoacceleratehumanevolutionbyreplacingfaith-

[artwork]
MotherandChild

baseddecisionswithresearch-baseddecisions.Theothershavesimilaror

byMichaelO'Briant...page32
[notices]
TopicsandAssignments
.......................page33
[notices]
Afterword

compatiblegoals.OurclassleadersincludeR.U.Sirius,cyber-philosopher
PatriciaMonaghan,goddessresearcherAlanClements,Buddhistmonk
andactivistPeterCaroll,mathematicianandinventorofChaosmagick
DouglasRushkoff,mediamavenandotherswilljoinupsoon.
You'vewrittenextensivelyon(andfoundnewapplicationsfor)various

byTheEditors...page34

scientifictheories,particularlyinthefieldofquantummechanics.Yet
you'vemaintainedacriticaldistancefromthescientificestablishment,a

perseand
AboutThisIssue
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kindofhereticalvoiceandascepticofscepticism.YouoftenciteDr.
WilhelmReich'sstoryasanexampleofauthorityrunamok.TheUS
governmentdestroyedmuchofDr.Reich'scontroversialwork,and
nobody,particularlyfellowscientists,steppedforwardinprotestor
defence.Scienceissupposedtobeaboutinnovation,yetfewscientists
seemabletorevisetheirpettheoriesoncethey'vebeenaccepted.I
thinkthisiswhymanyfounditshockingwhenStephenHawking
recentlysteppedoutandsaid,"Iwaswrongaboutblackholes."Nobody
isusedtorespectedfiguresrevisingorchuckingouttheirstrongly-held
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1 2.
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EnvironmentalPsychology
Collaboration
RitualandMyth
TheFuture
Authenticity
Design
Home
Intuition
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issueviews:261990

Letmedifferentiatebetweenscientificmethodandtheneurologyofthe
individualscientist.Scientificmethodhasalwaysdependedonfeedback[or
flip-floppingastheTsaristscallit]Ithereforeconsideritthehighestform
ofgroupintelligencethusfarevolvedonthisbackwardplanet.The
individualscientistseemsadifferentanimalentirely.TheonesI'vemet
seemaspassionate,andhenceasegotisticandprejudiced,aspainters,
ballerinasoreven,Godsavethemark,novelists.Myhopeliesinthe
feedbacksystemitself,notinanyallegedsaintlinessoftheindividualsin
thesystem.
You'reaself-describedmodelagnostic,andyou'vedeconstructedall
mannerofbeliefsystems(BS)inyourbooks.InPrometheusRising,you
encouragedpeopletoconsciouslyenterasmanydifferentreality
tunnelsaspossible,toexaminetheirbeliefsfrommultipleviewpoints.
Humancultureisfilledwithpeoplezealouslyattachedtovarious
orthodoxiesandideologies.Theclashoffundamentalbeliefsystemshas
oftenprovendestructivetohumankind.Whatwillittaketoshake
peoplefromtheirdogmas?
Inaword,Internet.EversinceIreadWiener'sCybernetics:Controland
CommunicationintheAnimalandtheMachinebackin1948I'vethoughtof
"intelligence"asafunctionoffeedback.Themorefeedback,thehigherthe
measurable"intelligence,"andthelessfeedback,theless"intelligence."As
thecomputergavebirthtotheNetandtheWeb,feedbackhasincreased
exponentially.AsR.U.Siriuswroterecently,"TheriseoftheNetandthe
Webrepresentsavictoryforthecountercultureandthesubculture.The
nextgeneration,raisedontheNetastheirprimarymedium,won'teven
knowwhatconsensusrealityis."Inotherwords,feedbackandMaybe
Logicformacirclethatspinsfasterandfaster.TheTsaristsfearandhateit
--theycallit"flip-flopping"--butitcharacterizesallhighintelligence
systems,electronicorprotoplasmic.
Iagreethattheinternetseemstobeaproductofsuchanaccelerated
feedbacksystem.Thisissomethingwecanwitnesswitheverysingle
onlineinteraction.Now,therehasbeenalotoftalkpost-9.11ofan
ominoustotalitarianspectreloomingoverus,thatOrwell'sBigBrother
isfinallyhere.Thereareconspiriologistswhobelievethattheinternet,
havingrisenfromthePentagon,hasneverbeenanythingmorethana
BigBrotheristplot,andthatfolkslikeRUSirius,JohnPerryBarlowand
otherInformationAgephilosophersaredupes(un)knowingly(?)
providingalibertarianfaadeforthisvastconspiracy.Whatifthe
internetisnothingmorethanthelatestTsaristmethodofcontroland
informationgathering?
Well,thenwe'resunk,ain'twe?Fortunately,thereexistsnologicalor
factualreasontobelievethatparanoidfantasy,anditisdirectly
contradictedbythehardmathematicsofWienerandShannonon
"redundanceofcontrol"infeedbacksystems.WhatJuangJousaidofthe
universe2400yearsagoisevenmoretrueofthe4,285,199,774computer
URLsonlinetoday-[21August2004]-"thereisnogovernoranywhere."
Speakingof9.11andthePentagon,thedayaftertheairplanesplita
holeinthesideofthebuilding,Iimmediatelythoughtofyoursand
RobertShea'sIlluminatus!novel.Init,thefive-sidedPentagon
imprisonsasupernaturalbeastcalledYogSothoth.Ifthisghoulwereto
escape,humankindwouldwitnesstheimmanentizationofeschaton.
Thisseemstobeasaptametaphorforthecurrentmillenariancultural
climateasI'veeverseen.So,inasense,didYogSothothbustouton
thatday?
Let'snottakemetaphorstooliterally.I'lladmitBozohasalotincommon
withYogSothoth,andthatheevenhasthesameinitialsasGWB666in
Schrdinger'sCat,butIregardthoseasaccidentalhits.Idon'tthinkof
myselfasasleepingprophet.
Howclosearewetoimmanentizingeschaton?
Itgotimmanentized5yearsagowhentheSupremescalledofftheelection
andappointedGWB--theGreatWildBeast--tothewhitehouse.
Youwroteacompellingpiecefollowingthe2000USpresidential
election,inwhichyoupointedoutoneofthoseobviousthingsthatmost
peoplemissed:while50%ofeligiblevoterssplittheirvotesbetween
BushandGore,theother50%consciouslychosetovoteforNobody.
(I'veactuallybeenarguingthat,sincechildren,prisoners,aliensand

otherdisenfranchisedpeoplewereunabletovote,Bushonlyreallygot
amandatefromabout14%oftheAmericanpeople.Somuchfor"half
thecountry"supportinghim,asthemediaplayedit.)You'vealso
theorizedthatanefarious,neo-autocratic"TsaristOccupation
Government"(TSOG)controlstheapparatusoftheState.Screwtheold
DemocratversusRepublicandebate.Tellme,howdoyouthinkboth
NobodyandtheTSOGwillfareintheupcomingpresidentialelection?
IassumemostintelligentpeoplewillcontinuetovoteforNobody,andthe
moronmajoritywillsplittheirvotesaboutevenly,dependingonwhichof
thetwomulti-millionaireSkull-and-Bones-menhasthemostsexappeal.It
doesn'treallyseemtomatter:ifthepeoplemarginallypreferthe"wrong"
candidate,theSupremeCourtwillassuredly"correct"themagain.The
TSOGseemsacomfortabledisease,likedeathbysleepingsickness.After
7000yearsofAuthoritarianPatriarchy,mostpeopleacceptTsarismand,in
America,resentthatpeskyconstitutionimposedonthembyafew
intellectualfreemasons.
ThisstatementrecallsReich'sMassPsychologyofFascism.Itseems
thatthereismassive,widespreadpublicmistrustanddisgustinpolitics
andgovernment,notonlyintheUSAbutinmanypartsoftheworld.
Whyarecitizenssoloyaltosystemsandleaderstheyadmittedlyhave
norespectfor?
RaymondChandler,whoservedasalieutenantofinfantryinWorldWarI,
pointedoutthesameparadoxonasmallerscale:incharginganenemy,
troopsarestatisticallysaferifscatteredbroadly,buttheyallshowa
tendencytobunchtogethernearthelieutenant,therebyincreasingtheir
risk.Thisseemsahardwired[evenpremammalian]vertebrateprogram.On
topofthatwe'vegotthe7000+yearsofauthoritarianconditioning
documentedbyReich.Seemsratherbleak,doesn'tit?Myoptimismrestson
thefactthat,historically,inemergency,peopleoftenmutatein
unpredictableandcreativeways.AsJohnAdamssaid,theAmerican
Revolutiontookplace"inthemindsofthepeopleinthe15yearsbefore
thefirstshotwasfired."Isuspectasimilarrevolutionisoccurringinthe
mindsofeducatedpeopleworldwide.
Acrossthepost-electionlandscape,therehasbeenmuchtalkofa
"dividedAmerica,"withpunditsdrawingahardlinebetween"blue
states"and"redstates."Isthislineillusory?
Isuspectalllinesexistonlyinourminds--especiallypoliticallines.
Universeseemsmorelikewaltzingchaosthanlikeanaccountbook.

ArewelivinginPhillipK.Dick'sRome?
Well,Philcertainlylivedthere.IfeelmorelikeIliveinTsaristRussia.
SometimesIthinkofmyselfasthelastDecembrist-andifthatseems
obscureortookooky,justsetyoursearchenginefor"Decembrists+
Illuminati"andgrokintheirfullnesstheURLsthatcomeup.Anyway,we
certainlydon'tliveinaconstitutionaldemocracy.Ifeelalmost
99.999999999999999999999999999999%sureaboutthat.
WhenI'vebeenseverelydepressed,orseverelystoned,I'vebeenable
toactually*feel*Dick'sRome,notjustgrokitasanintellectual
concept.Formethisrealitytunnelisfilledwithemotion,paranoia,
delusion,synchronicity,symbology,metaphor,heightenedawareness.
Doesitevergobeyondtheoryforyou?Doyou*feel*TsaristRussia?
Frequently---especiallywhenItestmyBuddhistdetachmentbytryingto
listento"our"leaderswithoutgrowlingorcussingundermybreath.Ifeel
liketheDecembrists,verypoignantly.ButIalsoidentifyalotthefounders
ofthismoribundRepublic.TheyknewtheConstitutionalonecouldnot
restrainthepowerlustsofCertainTypesandwarnedthatweneeded
eternalvigilance--buttheycouldonlygiveustheConstitution,notthe
vigilance.Alas!
Itwouldseem,then,thatdemocracyisacloakforautocracy.Hasthat
allit'severbeen?Orishistorycyclingbackwards,havewecollectively
betrayedtheEnlightenment?
First,mypassionturnstowardCONSTITUTIONALdemocracy,notjust
"democracy"ingeneral,whichIfearasmuchasourfoundersdid.Iwant
LIMITSongovernment,clearlydefinedandvirtually"graveninstone."As
JohnAdamswrote"Mycredoisthatdespotismorabsolutepoweristhe

sameinamajorityofapopularassembly,anaristocraticcouncil,an
oligarchicaljuntaorasingleemperor--equallyarbitrary,bloodyandin
everyrespectdiabolical."Iagreetotally.Yeah,Ithinkwehavelostalotof
lightlately-andby"we"Imeanboththesuidaenpoliticosandthe
masses.
You'vehadtofightforyourrighttousemarijuanamedicinally.Howdid
youbecomeanactivist?
I've"activized"forvariouscausessince1959,becauseIhavethatsortof
temperament.Igotinvolvedactivelyinthemedicinalmarijuanacauselong
beforemypost-poliosymptomsmademedicalpotnecessaryinmyown
case.Now,stuckinawheelchairmostoftheday,Ifeelnotjustactivated
butsuper-activated.Isupportedawifeandfourkidsmostofmylife.I
have35booksinprint.NEWSCIENTISTcalledmyCATtrilogy"themost
scientificofallscience-fictionnovels."Now,at73,I'mtreatedlikeachildby
theTSOG--andsoismydoctor,afullyqualifiedM.D.OnlytheTsarknows
what'sbestforme,medically,andheknowswithoutdoingamedical
examinationeven,justbyconsultingsomefaith-basedorganizations...To
quoteGeorgeCarlin"stunningly,STUNNINGLY,fullofshit."Ifyou'dlikethe
viewofresearch-basedorganizationsseehttp://www.medical-marijuanatestimonials.org/
YourecentlyfoundedtheGuns&DopePartytocombattheexcessesof
Tsarism.Whataresomeofthecentraltenetsofyourparty'splatform?

1. Gunsforthosewhowantthemnogunsforcedonthosewhodon't
wantthem[Quakers,Amish,pacifistsingeneraletc.]
2. Drugsforthosewhowantthemnodrugsforcedonthosewhodon't
wantthem[ChristianScientists,herbalists,homeopathsetc]
3. Bipedalunity--equalrightsforostriches
4. Voluntarytaxation:youpayforgovernmentprogramsyouwantyou
don'tpayapennyforanyprogramsyoudon'twant.

DoyoufeelthatTemporaryAutonomousZonesorPirateUtopiashave
thepotentialtobefreehavensfromtheTSOG?
Temporarily.OnlyInternetcreatestherealpossibilityofaGlobal
AutonomousZone.Ithinkallproblemshavegottensolvedandwillget
solvedby[a]moreinformationand[b]morerapidandubiquitous
transmissionofinformation
TheconceptofConspiracyhasloomedlargeinyourwritingsfor
decades.Whatfascinatesyoumostabouttheconceptofconspiracy
theory?
Mymajorinterestremains,asIsaid,intheareaofnon-Aristotelianlogics,
andaround1969BobSheaandIgottheideaofwritingafunnynovel
applyingMaybeLogictothearenaofconspiriology.Theresult,
ILLUMINATUS.wentsofaroutsideconsensusreality-tunnelsthatittookus
fiveyearstogetitpublished,andnow,for30years,Ikeepreceiving
feedbackfromtwogroupswhocannothandletheconceptof"maybe"at
all,atall.Thefirstgroupbelievesfervently,beyondalldoubt,thatI
endorsedthecraziestideasI'vediscussedandhenceregardsmeasa
dangerousnut.ThesecondgrouphasanequallyardentbeliefthatIwork
fortheCIA'sdisinformationbureauandwanttomakeallconspiracy
theorieslookequallycrazy.I'vewrittendozensofbooksonothersubjects,
butthosetwogangscontinuallyprovokemystoned-outsenseofhumor,
soIcontinuallysurrendertothetemptationtohavealittlemorefunwith
them......
Conspiriologyisreallybigthesedays.Whydoyoufeelpeopleareso
drawntoleftfieldspeculativeideas?
AsanadmittedCosmicSchmuck,Idon'tclaimto"know"theanswertothat
--oranythingelse--butIdohavecertainpersistentsuspicions.Isuspect,
forinstance,that"theEstablishment"--i.e.theTSOGandthecorporate
media--havetoldsomanyoutrageousliesthatnobodyreallyfullytrusts
themanymore.TheweaponsofmassdestructioninIraqstillremainhidden
fromhumanperception.Afterthatliecollapsed,theTSOGdidnotmerely
appearfullofshititappeared,toquoteCarlinagain,thatseems
STUNNINGLYfullofshit.Sonaturallyamarkethasgrownforexplanations
ofwhatthehellreallymotivatesBozoandhisgang.Iregardmyjobas
applyingthesamescathingcriticismtoallmodelsthattrytoimplythe
model-makerreallyknowsmorethanmeanddoesn'tjustguess,and

speculate,andgropeinthedark,likeIadmitIdo
Youarewellknownforyourworkexploringspeculativetheoriesand
esoterica.InbookslikeSexandDrugsandtheCosmicTriggerseries,
youwroteofexperimentationwithoccultmagick.Reflectinguponyour
numerousforaysintothesestrangeworldswhereSciencefearsto
tread,whatarethemostinteresting"secrets"youdiscovered?
ThesamethatIsimultaneouslydiscoveredinBuddhismandquantum
physics:namely,thealleged"wall"between"me"and"theworld"does
notexistatall.Clearingthoughtandlanguageofthatfictitioussplitadds
immeasurablytoclarity.Oh,yes,anditimprovesyoursenseofhumor,too!
Let'swrapitupwithalittlehumor.Canyoutellmeagoodjoke?
Threeguysaredrinkingandarguinginabar."Itellyouitshouldbespelled
W-O-O-O-M,"thefirstsaysdogmatically.
"AndIstillsayW-H-O-O-Msoundsright,"thesecondcounters.
"No,no,no,"saysthethird.'It'sdefinitelyW-H-O-M-B-B."
"You'veallgotitwrong,"offersagynecologistatthenexttable."It'sW-OM-B."
Theystareathercoldly."Madam,"thefirstsays,"it'sobviousthatyou've
neverheardanelephantfart."

RelatedLinks:
http://www.official-lamp.org/
http://www.gunsanddope.com/
http://www.rawilson.com/
http://www.maybelogic.com/
http://www.maybelogic.org/
http://raw23.home.comcast.net/
http://www.alphane.com/raw.htm
http://www.deoxy.org/learyraw.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Anton_Wilson

< 19 20 21 22 23 >

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OnarainydayinMarch1995,intrepidInternetgeekCCNtraveledtoCapitola,Californiawithacracked
RealisticminicasetterecorderandabottleofJameson'sIrishWhiskeytorecordaninterviewwithlocal
authorRobertAntonWilson.
CCN:Whatwouldyoucallyourwriting:conspiracyliterature,sciencefiction,futurism?
RAW:Well,Iusedtocallit"guerrillaontology,"whichisatermthatIpickedupinthePhysicsConsciousnessResearch
Group.Iforgetwhocoinedthetermandnobodyinthegroupseemstorememberwhocoinediteither.Itwasjustgoing
aroundthegroup.ItcouldhavebeenFredWolfe,JackSarfatti,ormaybeNickHerbert.EverybodyinthePhysics
ConsciousnessGroupseemstohavewrittenabookbynowandhasgottenbetterknown...
CCN:Whenwasthis?
RAW:Somewherebackinthe'70s.Ilike"guerrillaontology"asadescription.Ontologyisthebranchofphilosophythat
triestounderstandwhat'srealandwhatisn't,orwhat'sthedifferencebetweenrealrealityandmereappearance.
GuerrillaontologyiscloselyrelatedtoFrenchdeconstructionism.
Ididn'trealizethiswhileIwasdevelopingguerrillaontology,butourapproachistoknockdowneverybodyelse'sattempt
tosettlethequestion.Ourattitudeis:Thereisnofinalanswer.
Whatthescientificallyilliterateconsiderthefinalanswerisjustthelatestmodel.Thelatestmodel,presumably,will
includemorefactsthananypreviousmodel,oritwon'tbecomeprevalent.Thelatestmodelwillbethebestwecandoat
thistime,butitwillbereplacedbyabettermodelinfiveyears,ifnotsooner.
CCN:IntheIlluminatus!trilogy,therewasacharacternamedMarkoffChaney,themidget,whoactedasoneofthefew
outofcontrolrandomelementsinallofthevariousplots,conspiraciesandintriguesdescribedinthebook.
RAW:Hisnamecomesfromamathematicaltermforarandomnumericalprocess.
CCN:Itseemsthemidgetwouldbeagoodprototypeforaguerrillaontologistinthesensethathespentthebulkofhis
timethrowingsemanticmonkeywrenchesintootherpeople'senvironmentswhichshiftedtheirperceptionofreality,and
behavior.
RAW:Yes.IgottheideainastoreonClarkStreetinChicago,NorthClarkStreet.Isawasignwhichappearsin
Illuminatus!,andthesignsays,"Noemployeemaypunchthetimecardforanyotheremployee.Anydeviationwillresult
intermination.TheMgt.",whichobviouslystoodforthemanagement.Butlookingatthatsign,Iimmediatelyconceivedof
thischaracter,thisangrymidgetwho'sonacrusadetostampoutsizismandnottoconcedeafuckinginchtothe
conceitedandarrogantgiantswhoruntheworld.
Hewantstogetlittlepeoplerecognizedforthecontributionsthey'vemade.Andhealsoengagesinguerrillawarfare
againsttheirexpectations.Like,he'stheonewho'swiredthetrafficsignssotheysay"Walk"onredand"Don'tWalk"on
thegreen.Everybodyhasnoticedthat.Well,that'shiswork.
Andheengagesinalotofotheractivitieslikethatcalculatedtodrivetheovergrownmajorityoutoftheirheadsand
makethemalittleuncertain.He'satwarwiththeconceptoftheaverageorthenormal,actually.Thesethingsarevery
unscientificanddehumanizingterms.He'sbeenadoptedasaherobygaypeopleand"StampOutSizism,"whichisa
sloganhegoesaroundgraffiti-ing,hasbeenpickedupallovertheCastro,I'mtold.
Helaterwroteabook...abookcalledLittleMenwithBigBallsclaimingallimportantscienceandartwascreatedby
menlessthanfivefeettall.ThepublisherdecidedChaneyhadsomekindofunconsciousbiasofhisownandchanged
thetitletoLittlePeoplewithBigIdeas...
CCN:Well,itsoundsasiftheeffortsofthemidgetcomefromhisownbiasesand,perhaps,somepersonalityproblems.
Whatisitthatdrivesyoutobeaguerrillaontologistyourself?What'sthechiponyourshoulder?
RAW:Well,IfindthatI'mnotnormaleither.Chaney'sproblemwasveryconspicuouslyvisible.Societytreatspeople
differentifthey'reshort.
Averygoodfriendofmine,theactorDavidRappaport,whoplayedMarkoffChaneyonthestageinEnglandand
Amsterdamoncesaid,"Youseetheworldentirelydifferentwhenatapartyallyouseeispeople'scrotchesandasses."
Youhaveadifferentviewoftheworld,and...IthinkIreflecttheviewsofpeoplewhoarealienatedforonereasonor
anotherfromorthodoxsociety.
Somepeoplearealienatedinwaysthatmakemybooksveryuncomfortableforthembecausetheirformofalienationis

partofwhatI'msatirizing.I'mnotonlysatirizingthenormal.I'msatirizingeverythingthatseemsabsurdorunreasonable
tome.
CCN:Certainly,Illuminatus!wasacollectionofeveryabsurdityoneverylevel,somethingforeveryone.
RAW:There'shardlyanythinginthatbookthatisn'tbasedonsomethingthat'swidelybelievedbysomegroupof
paranoidsorindividualists,orwhateveryouwanttocallthem,somedissidentgroup.
CCN:Butbacktothechiponyourshoulderthat'sleadingyoutobeaguerillaontologist...
RAW:Chiponmyshoulder?Iprefertoconsideritadilationofperception.
Forinstance,I'mtheAmericandirectoroftheCommitteeforSurrealistInvestigationofClaimsoftheNormal(CSICON).
Weinsistthat"thenormal"doesn'texistoutsidepuremathematics..Intherealworldeverybodyisabnormalinoneway
oranother.AsJamesJoycesaid,"TheStateisconcentric,buttheindividualiseccentric."
Andsowehavea$10,000rewardforanybodywhocanproduceanyperfectly"normal"man,womanorchild,normalin
allrespects,orevenan"average"sunsetoran"ordinary"day.Andsofar,nobodyhascollectedit.Thenormal,the
averageandtheordinaryaretotalfictions.
CCN:Well,youmentionedChicagopreviously,andoneofthethingsthatreallystrikesmeaboutIlluminatus!isthatyou
portrayChicagoinawaythatindicatesthatyou'vehadsomeverytough,brutal,personalexperiencesthere.AndsoI'm
wondering:what'syourproblemwithChicago?
RAW:Well,Idon'thaveaproblemwithChicagoanymore.Illuminatus!waswritteninChicago.SheaandIwereboth
livinginChicagowhenwewroteit.AndourproblemwasthatduringtheDemocraticConventionof1968,weparticipated
inwhatappearedtous,orwhatweweretoldwouldbenonviolentdemonstrationsand,whatlookedlikenonviolent
demonstrationsfromwherewewerestandingatdifferenttimes.Nomatterwherewewent,weneversawanyviolence
bythedemonstrators.Thepoliceusedteargas,mace,clubs,tobeatthehelloutofeverybody,creamthem.Theyput
hundredsofpeopleinthehospital.Theyclaimedthatthedemonstratorswereviolent.Iclaimthatsomebodywas
hallucinating.Ineversawanydemonstratordoanythingviolent.Andsothatwaswhytherewas
acertainsatireaimedatChicagoingeneralandMayorDaleyinparticular.Ijustdidnotbelievetheofficialversionof
whathappenedinconventionweek.Ibelievedwhatmyeyessawandmyearsheard.
AndthenapoliceinformertoldtheRedSquadthatIwasrunninggunsfortheBlackPanthers,and...Jesus,Icantalk
aboutthisnow...Iwasn'trunninggunsfortheBlackPanthers.Iwasoneofthepeopleinvolvedincollectingfoodfortheir
breakfastprogramforpoorblackchildren.Butthatwasn'texcitingenough--thefactthatwewerebringingfood.The
informer,toimprovethestoryandpleasehissuperiors,saidIwassmugglinggunsforthem,whichledtoataponmy
phoneandamailcoverandallsortsofthings.
AndIfoundoutaboutallthisimmediatelybecausetheRedSquadwasinfiltratedbyaspyfromPlayboy.Iwasworking
forPlayboyatthetime,andthespyimmediatelyinformedPlayboy'smanagerswheneveraneditorofPlayboywasunder
policesurveillanceandtoldthemwhy.Theycomedowntomyoffice,closedthedoor,andwehadaveryfrank
discussionaboutwhetherIwasorwasnotrunninggunsfortheBlackPanthers.AndIconvincedhimIwasn't.The
executiveknewmeabitanyway,andheknewI'mnotthetypetobeintoviolentrevolution.Andhesaidiftheydo
anythingnastytoyou,Playboywillprovidelegalcounsel.Butit'skindofnerve-rackingtoknowyou'rebeingspiedonby
peoplewhothinkyou'resmugglinggunsandthatpeoplearelyingaboutyouandthatthisisperfectlynormalamongthe
subversivesquadsofourpoliceforces.
CCN:EspeciallyinChicago.Letmesee.FredHamptoncomestomind.
RAW:Yeah.FredHamptongotshot.Theyclaimedhewasshootingatthem,buttheevidenceindicatedhe'dbeen
drugged.Obviously,somebodyslippedhimabarbituratetoknockhimout.Hewasunconsciouswhenthecopscamein
andshothim.
CCN:SoChicago'snotagoodtowntobeonthebadlistof...
RAW:It'snotagoodtowntoberadicalin,I'llsaythat.Idon'tthinkChicagoissobad,it'sjustthat'swherewewereliving
whenwewroteIlluminatus!.InmyothernovelssetinNaplesandLondonandParisandNewYorkandDublinandother
places,Idescribedillicitandillegalandunconstitutionalactivitiesbygovernmentagents.Thisis,Ithink,arather
constantfactorinhistorythatalwayshastobewarnedagainstandfoughtagainst.
CCN:Yeah,Ijust...detectedacertainpersonalamountofenergyinyourpaintingofChicagoasso...
RAW:Well,anEnglishfriendofminesaidthatIhavealove/haterelationshipwithEngland,andthatreallyastounded
me.That'sjustthewayitseemstohimbecausehe'sEnglish.Ihavealove/haterelationshipwitheverycountry.Theyall
havesomethingadmirable,andtheyallhavegovernmentsthatdoevilthingsattimes.H.L.Menckensaideverydecent
manisashamedofhisgovernment.Thatsoundssexistnowadays.Everydecentpersonisashamedoftheirgovernment
...

CCN:Let'sgooveryourbibliography...
RAW:I'vegot28booksaltogether.
CCN:Whatareyoutryingtosayinyourbooks?
RAW:There'snoonemessage.I'mtryingtosaylotsofthings.
Schrodinger'sCatinasensewasanattempttodramatizehowourviewoftheworldwouldchangeifanyoftheeight
standardinterpretationsofquantummechanicswereappliedonthemicroscopiclevel.There'salotofdebateabout
whethertheycouldbeappliedonamicroscopiclevel,butsomethinktheycould.Andsointhatbook,thecharactersare
wavesandparticlessimultaneously,andeverysectionoreigenstateisaparalleluniverse..Inbetweensections,the
charactersarewaves,andthenexttimeyouseethem,they'readifferentkindofparticle.AndIwasveryhappywhen
NewScientistcalledthatthemostscientificofallsciencefictionnovelsbecauseIdidputalotofeffortintogettingthe
physicsright.
TherearethreeCosmicTriggervolumes,andthethirdisjustabouttobepublished.Thesecondwascalled"Downto
Earth,"andthethirdwhichiscomingoutnextis"MyLifeAfterDeath."Andtheseareallattemptstorelatemylifeandmy
thinkingtothemajorproblemsofthe20thcentury...youmightsayI'musingmyselfthewayBuckyFullerusedhimself.He
referredtohimselfas"GuineapigB"forBucky....Youmightconsiderme"GuineapigR"forRobert.AndI'musingmyself
asatypical20thcenturymodelasI'mtryingtomakesenseoutoftheworldaroundme.
CCN:So,you'redefiningyourselfasnormal?
RAW:No,justtypicalinthesenseofbeingoneofthedamngoodmodelsaroundthesedays.Iamtypicalinthesense
that...alotofpeopleareonthesamewavelengthasme.Igetfanmailfrompeoplethatareabsolutelystunnedthat
there'ssomebodyelsebesidesthemselveswhothinksthisway.So,we'reaminority,buttherearealotofus.Ona
planetthisovercrowded,aminoritycanhaveafewmillionnumbers.
CCN:Sowhenyousay"thinkthisway,"couldyoudefinethatforme?
RAW:Morescientificthanreligious.Moreopenthandogmatic.Moreoptimisticthanpessimistic.Morefutureoriented
thanpastoriented.Andmorehumorousthanserious.Ireallydreadseriouspeople.Especiallyserious,dogmaticpeople.
IregardthemassortofwhatReichcalledtheemotionalplague.Iregardthemasverydangerous.
CCN:Well,I'mgladyoumentionedWilhelmReichbecauseasidefromyourreferencestoChicago,youalsomakealot
ofreferencestoWilhelmReichinIlluminatus!.CouldyoubrieflydescribewhoWilhelmReichwas,whathedidandwhy
yourinterestinhim?Didhepresentagoodworkingmodelforyou?
RAW:Well,ReichwasapupilofFreud.HewasanM.D.fromtheUniversityofViennawhichisprettydamnhigh
qualifications.Hewasincreasinglyradical,andoneoftheturningpointsinhislifeoccurred,Iforgetwhetheritwas'31or
'32,oneofthoseyearsjustbeforeHitlercametopower...hegotkickedoutthePsychoanalyticalSocietyforbeingtoo
Marxist.AndthenhewaskickedouttotheCommunistPartytooforbeingtooFreudian.HejoinedtheSocialistParty
andwaskickedoutforbeingtooanarchistic,andthenhehadtofleeGermanybecausehewasJewish.Andwhenhe
cametotheUnitedStates,somebodyfiledafalsereportwiththeFBIthathewasaNaziagentwhichledtohimbeing
imprisonedforaperiod,notinprison,justheldincustodyuntiltheyinvestigated.
Hehadagreatcapacitytoarouseirrationalhatredobviously,andthat'sbecausehisideaswereradicalinthemost
extremesenseoftheword"radical."Hisideashavesomethingtooffendeverybody,andheendedupbecomingtheonly
hereticinAmericanhistorywhosebookswereliterallyburnedbythegovernment.
TimothyLearyspentfiveyearsinprisonforunorthodoxscientificideas.EzraPoundspent13yearsinanuthousefor
unorthodoxpoliticalandeconomicideas.Theirbookswerenotburned.Reichwasnotonlythrowninprison,butthey
choppedupallthescientificequipmentinhislaboratorywithaxesandburnedallofhisbooksinanincinerator.Nowthat
interestsmeasacivillibertiesissue.
WhenIstartedstudyingReich'sworks,Iwentthroughaperiodofenthusiasm,followedbyaperiodofskepticism,
followedbyaperiodofjustcontinuedinterest,butIthinkalotofhisideasprobablyweresound.Alotprobablywere
unsound.And,I'mnotaReichianinthesenseofsomebodywhothinkshewasthegreatestscientistwhoeverlivedand
discoveredthebasicsecretsofpsychology,physicsandeverythingelse,allinonelifetime.ButIthinkhehasenough
soundideasthathisunpopularideasdeservefurtherinvestigation.
CCN:Unpopularideassuchasaboutsexualityandtheenergyofsex,"orgone"?
RAW:Well,firstofall...Idon'tbelieveinanymorethisideathatsexuallyrepressivereligionsarethemaincauseof
sadism.Thereareplentyofsexuallyopensocietiesthathavehadalotofsadistsinthem,soIthinkReichwas
oversimplifyingthere.
TheOrgoneTheoryI'mstillopen-mindedabout,especiallybecauserecentlytherewasaPh.D.dissertationacceptedat
aGermanuniversitywheretheydidadouble-blindstudyoftheorgoneaccumulator,andnobodyknewwhowasinthe

accumulatorsandwhowasintheinactiveboxes,andyetthepeopleintheaccumulatorsdidreporttheresultsthatReich
saidtheyshouldfeel--tinglingmildlyeroticsensationsandariseintemperature.Thatinterestsme.Idon'tknowwhy
somebodyinthiscountrydoesn'thavetheballstodoanexperimentlikethat.Inthiscountrytheestablishmentsayshe
wasanut,period,andtheywon'trepeathisresults.Peoplewhodorepeathisresultstendtoconfirmhim,althoughnone
ofthemhavedonearealhard,double-blindstudy.Butiftheyconfirmhim,theygetknownasReichiansanddismissed
asnutsthemselves,andIthinkthere'sanawfullotofprejudicethere.
CCN:Yeah,nodoubt.Andyouhaveabackgroundinpsychology?YouhaveadoctorateIunderstand?
RAW:FromanalternativeuniversityapprovedbythestateofCalifornia.Now,Californiahasfourratingsfromapproved
downtoauthorized.Authorizedisthefourth.Iforgetthetwointhemiddle.Approvedisthehighesttheygive.Soit'snota
diploma,though.Itwasapprovedbythestatebutit'snotquiteorthodox.It'sanalternativeuniversity.
CCN:Tellmealittlebitaboutyourplay,WilhelmReichinHell.
RAW:Well,inasense...it'saboutReich.It'saboutthecontroversysurroundinghim.It'salsoaboutmyowndoubtsand
confusions,andit'sintwoparts.There'salongintroductionbecauseBernardShawsaid,"Peopledon'tbuyplaysunless
theyhavelongintroductions."Anditworked.PeopleboughtShaw'splays,andtheyusuallydon'tbuyplaysinbookform.
SoIwrotealong,funnyintroductionlikeShawalwayswroteforhisplays.AndintheintroductionIfightwiththepeople
whosayReichwasanutandtheywon'trepeathisexperimentsbecauseitwouldjustbeawasteoftime.That'srhetoric
whereI'mdefendingReich'srighttobeheard.Theplayiswhatispoetry.Yeatssaidwemakerhetoricoutofourquarrel
withothersandpoetryoutofourquarrelwithourselves.Theplayismyowndoubt,questioning,howmuchwassound
andhowmuchwascrazyinReich?I'mneversure.Ikeepchangingmymind.Sotheplaydramatizesmyowndoubtsand
questions.Whendidhegocrazy?Howcrazydidhego?I'mnotatallsureaboutthat.
CCN:Hediedinprison?
RAW:Yeah.
CCN:IntheUnitedStates?
RAW:Yeah.
CCN:Thechargethathewasconvictedof...?
RAW:Contemptofcourt.Hewasforbiddentousetheorgoneaccumulatoranymore,andhedefiedthecourt
deliberately,todramatizehislibertarianpositionthatacourthasnorighttosaythatcertainlinesofscientificresearch
areillegitimate.
That'sthesamethingLearywenttojailfor,excepttheyhadabetterrationalization.Namely,onehalfofonemarijuana
cigarette.ButthejudgewhosentencedLearydiddenouncehimforhisdangerousideas.So,itwasbasically,Learyand
Reichhaveverysimilarcases.Except,believeitornot,Reicharousedevenmorefuryandprejudicebecause,likeI
said,theyburnedhisbooksandtheydidn'tburnLeary'sbooks.
CCN:...Whydoyouthinkthatwas?Reichisknown,atleastbymyself,assomebodywhoismainlywhatyouwouldcall
asexresearcher,andLearywasexploringtheeffectsofLSDandpsychoactives,let'ssay.Whyisitthatthedrugsonly
landedLearyinprison,butthesexbasicallykilledReich?
RAW:Well,IthinkonereasonisthatReichranathwartofthecourtsinthe'50swhentheMcCarthyerawasending,but
theatmospherewasstillthere,andthingswerealittlemoreextreme,alittlemorefanatical,thenthantheywerewhen
Learyranathwartofthesystem.ButstillLearywasoriginallysentencedto37years,whichisprettyheavyforscientific
dissent,especiallyinacountrywiththeFirstAmendmentwhichissupposedtoguaranteefreedomofspeech.
ThesexualapsectofReich'swork,well,thatwouldpushpeople'sbuttons.Imean,lookatMadonna.Allyou'vegottodo
iscomeupwithsomethingthatchallengesorthodoxsexualideasandeverybodygoesoffthehandle,boththeleftwing
andtherightwing.WhohatesMadonnamore--theFeministsortheFundamentalists?Challengesexualfascismorthe
traditionalJudeo-Christiancodeasit'scalledandallhellbreaksloose.Everybodyisdownonyourcase.Andtheywere
alldownonReich,everybodyfromtheextremelefttotheextremeright.
CCN:Whenyousayorthodoxsexualideas,thefirstthingthatcomestomymindisthatwedon'treallyhaveanythese
days.
RAW:Well,wehadmorebackinthe'50's.Therewasmoreofaconsensusthanthereisnow.IfReichwerealivetoday,I
thinkhe'dhavemuchlesstroublepublishinganddiscussinghisideas.Hewasjustpublishinghalfacenturytooearly.
Buttoday,Reichwouldprobablysoundconservative.
CCN:Well,whatareyouworkingonnow?Whatisyourcurrentliteraryproject?
RAW:Well,IjustfinishedCosmicTriggerIII,andI'mworkingonBrideofIlluminatus!.
CCN:BrideofIlluminatus!?

RAW:Yes.BobSheaandIagreedtowriteanotherbooktogetherafterallthoseyearsofnotcollaborating.Wenever
hadafeudlikeGilbertandSullivan.It'sjustthatwebothgotbusywithdifferentprojects,andweneverhadthetimeto
worktogether.Andthenonedayhesaid,"Whydon'twedoabooktogether.Wecouldfititintoourschedule."
Well,anyway,wedecidedwecoulddoit,andwegotstartedandthenSheadiedofcancerwhichwas...themajor
tragedyofthelastcoupleofyearsofmylife.HewasmybestfriendIthink.SoI'mfinishingitonmyown....Itmaynotbe
asfunnyasthefirstonebecauseShea'sdeathkindofhangsovereverypageofitinthebackofmymindsomewhere.
Butanyway,it'scalled"Bride..."becauseIthoughtweshouldfollowtheHollywoodtraditionwherethefirstgreatsequel
wasBrideofFrankenstein,sowhynotBrideofIlluminatus!?ThenIrealizedthatthefirstgreatsequelwas"Sonof..."
CCN:SonofMightyJoeIlluminatus!.
RAW:No,thefirstgreatsequelwastheNewTestament.Somebodysaid,hey,theGodbookisdoingreallygood,let'sdo
SonofGod,andtheywrotetheNewTestament.MostmoviesdogofromGodzillatoSonofGodzilla,andsoon.
Frankensteinisoneofthefewthatrememberedyouneedawomanforreproductionandwenttothebride,nextafterthe
original.
SothisisBrideofIlluminatus!.Oncewehadthetitle,wehadtofigureoutwhothebrideofIlluminatus!was...andwe've
gotaveryinterestingheroine,andshe'sgettingmoreinteresting.
CCN:Anysneakpreviewsyouwanttoshare?
RAW:Well,it'ssetin2026,exactly50yearsafterIlluminatus!ended,andIdidn'trealizewhenwestarted,butInternetis
goingtoplayalargeroleintheplot.SoisCryonics.
CCN:Well,IwanttotouchuponyourthoughtsabouttheInternetalittlebitlater,butonethingIwanttotalkaboutsince
wementionedSheaisthatjusttogetintothemechanicsofawriter,howdidyoucollaborate?
RAW:Well,differentwritershavehaddifferenttechniques.WhatSheaandIagreedonistowritealternatesections,and
thenI,howshallIphraseit?IpersuadedSheatoletmerewritehissectionsinordertomakethestylemoreuniform.So
therearemanysectionsthatarealmostallSheaincontent,butthey'restillmeinstyleifyouknowwhatImean.Like,
oneofthelongestsectionsthat'salmostallSheaisthemovieaboutAtlantis...yetthestyleisme.Irewrotethethingto
getitintothestyleoftherestofthebook,andIaddedafewkeythingsliketheideaofthefurbristlingasanexpression
ofemotionandafewotherthingslikethat.
IalsocomeupwiththecloudedlensesandIwastryingtofigureouthowpeoplewhodidn'thaveourconceptsofsinor
mentalillnesswoulddescribesomebodywhoseperceptionstheycouldn'tunderstand,soIcameupwiththemetaphorof
thecloudedlenses.
CCN:...Well...that'saverygoodpointbecausewhenyousay,"Yourlensisclouded,"andwetalkaboutthatinthe
contextofsomebodywho's,let'ssay,crazy,wegettothenotionof"normal","crazy"beingdefinedlooselyas"not
perceivingnormally"or"notbehavingnormally".Idon'tseepinkelephantsfloatingaroundtheroom,andlet'ssay
somebodywho'sinsaneandispronetohallucinationsmightseethesepinkelephants.Thereseemstobeaspectrumof
humanperceptionandofbehaviorthatmightbecallednormal.
RAW:Thenthespectrumismuchwiderthanmostpeoplerealize.I'vebeendoingseminarsfornearly30years
now...originallyongeneralsemantics,andthenlaterIbroadeneditoutsomuchthatit'sjustaRobertAntonWilson
seminar,itincludessodamnmuch.Butinmyseminars,Ihavelotsofexercisesthatshowthatnotwopeopleever
perceivetheroomthesamewayorhearthesamesounds.
Sowe'realllivinginourownepicreality,astheycallitinsociology.IlikeLeary'sterm"realitytunnel"becauseit'spoetic
andvividandpeoplegetitrightaway.We'realllivinginourownrealitytunnel,andIdefinepsychosesasbehaviorthat
hasreachedtheleveloftheunendurablyobnoxious.Idon'tcarewhatthehellpeoplebelieve.Theycanboremeby
talkingaboutittoomuch,butthatstilldoesn'tbotherme.It'swhentheystartdoingweirdorfrighteningthingsthatIcall
themmentallyillandwantthemremovedfrommyenvironment.
WeoncelivedwithaschizophrenicinabuildinginBerkeley,andhisbeliefsdidn'tbothermeintheslightest,buthis
behaviordidwhenhestartedgettingonthephonetothepoliceregularlybecausehewasimaginingthebuildinghad
beencapturedbyterroristsorotherfantasiesofthatsort.Weallinthebuildingagreedwecouldn'tstandhavingthe
policecomeinsodamnoften.Andsothat'swhenIcomeupwithmy"objective"definitionofinsanity.Operationally,
nobodyhaseverdefinedwhat'srealtomysatisfaction.Sooperationally,theonlydefinitionofpsychosesisthecondition
inwhichpeople'sbeliefsystemsleadthemtoactinawaythatnobodyelsecantolerateforadaylongernomatterhow
hardtheytry.
CCN:Convenienceandsafety.
RAW:Whenbehaviorbecomesintolerable,thenIcallitpsychotic.IgetsomebodytotakethemsomewhereelsesoI
don'thavetoputupwiththemanymore.

CCN:Likethedefinitionofaflowerandaweed.
RAW:Yeah.
CCN:I'vereadafewpiecesbyyouandhaveheardyouontheradiotalkingaboutandrophobia.Thewomenagainst
whitemalesconflict.TheimpressionIgetaftertalkingwithyou,isthatintalkingaboutandrophobia,thereseemstobe
someguerrillaontologyinvolved...
RAW:Yes,thereisanelementofdeliberateparodyinthere.It'slikeMarkoffChaney'scrusadeagainstthegiantswho
runtheplanet,theseenormousovergrownignoramuseswhodon'ttreatmidgetswithproperrespect.Andhisattemptto
proveallculturewascreatedbypeopleshorterthanfivefeetandoftenshorterthanfourfeet.
CCN:Sointhiscase...
RAW:...butthere'smoretoit.
CCN:...everythinggoodwascreatedbypeoplewithvaginas.
RAW:Yeah.Thatseemstobethecurrentmythology,andalotofitisjustascrazyasmysatire.Idon'tthinkeventhe
craziestfeministsareasdangerousas,say,theAmericanNaziParty.Butthereisatendencyinfeminismthatisreally
crazy,itseemstome.AndIoftenfeellikeaJewinGermanyin1931.Nothingbadhashappenedyetexceptforabout20
casesofguyswhosepeniseshavebeencutoff.Bobbitisjusttheonethatgotallthepublicity.TheForteanTimeshada
listofabout20otherswhoit'shappenedto,honesttoGod.
Ifeel...well,I'lltracethebackgroundofmythinking.TheyopenedtheNazideathcampswhenIreachedpuberty.Ithink
reachingpubertyisapointofacuteimprintvulnerability,andIdevelopedahorrornotjustofanti-Semitismbutofany
kindofgrouphatred.AndthiswasreinforcedbytheeducationalsystemofNewYorkCitywhenIwasinhighschool.
English,civics,history.Inlotsofcoursestheteachersspentalotoftimetryingtotrainusnottomakereckless
generalizationsaboutgroups.AndasIgrewup,Ithoughteveryeducatedpersonhadlearnedthat,andthensuddenly
thisnewmovementappearsthat'sdevotedtomakingwildandrecklessgeneralizationsaboutacertaingroupandthat
seemstobeinculcatinghatredandcontempttowardthatgroupjustlikewiththeanti-Irishthinginthe19thcentury,the
anti-MexicanthinginCalifornianow,theanti-SemiticmaniainGermany,andalotofothertragediesinhistory.Itseems
teachersstoppedteachingaboutthedangersofgrouphatred.Andthistimethegroupselectedforthetargetof
stereotypesandhatemongeringisagroupIhappentobelongto,soInotonlythinkit'sillogicalandhistorically
dangerous,andmorallyobjectionableandsoonI'malsooneofthepotentialvictimsifitcontinuestogrowmore
irrationalandmoreviolent.
We'veseenalotofevidenceofwhatthiskindofthingcanleadto.Iftheygetenoughsperminthespermbanksand
startbuildingthegaschambers,I'minthegroupthattheypickedouttobeexterminated,thevillains.We'retheones
electedthevillainsliketheJewswereinNaziGermany.Now,Idon'twanttocarrythattoofar.Idon'tthinkinthefirst
placeMs.isthemainorganofthatmovement,andtheyneverhadacirculationhigherthan200,000attheirbest,soIam
notparanoidorterrorized,butatthesametimeitirritatesmetohearalltheseunscientificandunfoundedlibelsagainst
themalegender.SoIcan'tresistsatirizingthemandpointingouthowsimilarthisistotheNazigeneralizationsabout
Jews.

CCN:Well,you'vejustsaid"they"andthe"movement,"andIwonderifyoucoulddescribewho"they"areinalittlebit
morespecifictermslikeintermsoftheideologyinvolvedandthemovement,thethingsthatyouarereactingagainst
here.Obviously,notallfeministswanttochopoffpenises.Thefeministmovementisyetanotherspectrumwith
extremes.
RAW:Yes.There'squiteawidevarietyoffeministideas.IverymuchapproveandlikeSharonPresley'sAllianceof
LibertarianFeminists.ThisagreeswiththemajorityofthefeministmovementinbeingLibertarianorientedratherthan
Marxistoriented.
Mywifehasbeenafeministallherlife,butshestoppedusingthewordbecauseshedoesn'tliketheextenttowhich
male-bashingMarxistshavetakenoverthemovement.Tobespecific,Idon'tliketonamenamesandattackindividuals,
butthat'stheonlywaytoavoidmakingrecklessgeneralizations,soIwillnameafewnames.RobinMorgan,Andrea
Dorken,CatherineMcKinnonandtoagreatextentGloriaSteinam,andtosomeextentNaomiWolfe,haveallwritten
thingsthatIthinkareascrazyasanythingthatwaseverpublishedinDerSturmerinthe1930s.TheyexactlyfitReich's
profileofthesimilarityofRedFascismandBlackshirtFacism.Youjusttakeouttheword"male"andputintheword
"Jew"anditsoundsexactlylikeNazipropaganda......andIthinkanybodywhoisn'talittlebitfrightenedbyitislivingina
dream.They'retryingsohardtobefashionableandpoliticallycorrectthattheystopthinkingentirely.
CCN:Soyouthinkthatwe'reseeinganerainwhichwe'reproducingmoregoodGermansintermsofthiswholepolitical
correctnessthingbecausethefeministideologythatyou'rereferringtohereseemstobeunderthegeneralizedPC
umbrella.It'snotjustfeminismbut...youknow,thewhole"whoisthevictimnow,"youknow,andtheoppressorseemsto
be,ingeneral,the"whitemale."
RAW:Yeah."Thewhitemale"doesn'texist,anymorethan"thenormal"or"theaverage."ThecolumnistintheSanJose

Mercury,AngeloFigueroa,whosayswhitemalesownallthecorporationsisaclassiccaseofneurolinguisticneuroses.
Whathesaysistrue,butit'sfalse.It'strueinthesensethatmost,notall,mostofthecorporationsareownedbywhite
malesexceptfortheonesthatareownedbyorientalmales,Arabmales,etc....andsomeofthemareownedbywomen,
afew,veryfew,butafew.Butthatdoesnotmeanthatallwhitemalesowncorporations.Thisiswhereyouneed
symboliclogictoavoidgettingconfused.Labellogicoftengetsyouallmessedup.Allgiraffesareanimals,butnotall
animalsaregiraffes.Mostcorporationsareownedbywhitemalesbutmostwhitemalesdonotowncorporations.
IwishpeoplelikeFigueroahadtospendsixmonthsstudyingelementarylogicbeforetheywereallowedtovomittheir
racistandsexisthatredsinprint.ThisFigueroaasshole,ifImayspeakprecisely,hewalkseveryday,orhedrives
everyday,pastlotsandlotsofhomelesswhitemenbeggingonthestreets,andhedoesn'tseethembecausehis
definitionof"whitemale"issomebodywhoownsacorporation.
JustliketheNazisdidn'tseepoorJews.TheirdefinitionofaJewwassomebodywhoownedabank.Thiskindof
terminologymakespeopleblind.Theycan'tseewhat'sdirectlyinfrontofthem.RobinMorganandGloriaSteinam
cannotseehowmanypoorwhitementhereareinthiscountry.Theythinkallwhitemenowncorporations.Justlikethe
Nazihallucination.I'veneverownedacorporationinmylifeandIdon'tthinkIeverwillownone.Idon'tevenownpartof
one.Idon'thaveanystocks.
CCN:Sothisispersonalforyou,beingamemberofthe"hatedclass"here,beingtheJewortheniggerofthe'90s.
RAW:It'spersonalinthesensethatIrefusetostandtherewithapoliteexpressiononmyfacewhenfeministssaynasty
thingsaboutmen.Ijustwon'tdoitanymore.IfeellikeaJewsmilingpolitelyataNaziin1931.Iwon'tdoit.Iftheysay
somethingnastyaboutmen,ItellthemthatsoundsasstupidasHitlertalkingabouttheJews.Iknowit'snotnice,butI
tellthemtotheirface.IftheJewswerelessnicein1931,moreofthemmighthavesurvived.
CCN:You'reontheInternetnow.
RAW:Yeah.
CCN:You'rewhatisreferredtoas"netnewbie."
RAW:Yes.
CCN:WhatareyourthoughtsontheInternetasanenvironment,andyourexperiencesasanewbie?
RAW:Ithinktechnologyusedproperlyinadecentralizedwaycansolvealloftheproblemsthatareconfrontingthis
planet.That'smyfavoritesolutiontoallproblems:bettertechnologyandmoredecentralization--andInternetseemsto
methemostsuccessfulexampleofwhatIbelieveinandhopefor.It'satechnologythat'ssoradicallydecentralizedthatI
don'tthinkanybodywilleverbeabletocontrolit.
CCN:Well,therearevariouseffortsunderwayinCongresstocontrolthecontentofthenetwork.Themostrecentisthe
"DecencyinCommunicationsAct"intheSenate.
RAW:Isignedapetitionagainstit.Iliketheideaofanelectronicpetition.AndIalsowrotetoBillClintontoorganizethe
Democratsagainstit.It'sstupidinthefirstplace,butiftheycouldtrytoenforceit,theresultwouldbethatAmericawould
fallbehindtherestoftheworldastheInternetcontinuestogrow.They'dbedraggingpeopleoutofbusiness.
CCN:But,ingeneral,howareyoufindingyourexperienceonthenetwork?
RAW:Therearealotofthingsthatarereallyexcitingtome.Oneday,Iexchangede-mailwithafriendinMunichtwicein
onedayandsentafaxtoareporterinAustralia,andIthought,myGod,Ireallyamlivinginaglobalvillage.
Ibegintoseesomeofmyfavoritefuturist,especiallyMacluhanandFullerinanentirelynewway.It'sbecomingmorereal
andconcrete.I'vebeenthinkingaboutthesethingsforyears,butnowit'sbecomingeasiertothinkaboutbecauseI've
gotaconcreteexampletoillustrate...
CCN:Butwhenyousay"it'sbecomingmorerealandconcrete,"whatit?The"globalvillageofMacluhan"it?The"future
isherenow"it?"We'reabletotalktoeachothernomatterwherewearephysically"it?
RAW:OnewayoflookingatisBuckyFullermadealotofgraphsoftrajectories.Andhepredictedthatbythe1980swe
wouldbecrossingoceansinseconds.Andhesaidhewasstunnedhimselfbythat,andhecouldn'timaginehowwe
coulddoit,whatkind
oftechnologywouldmakethatpossible?Well,we'redoingit.It'sjustthatourphysicalbodiesaren'ttravelingalongwith
us.
Istillgoonlecturetourseveryyear,butIalwayshatetheairports,Ihatetheairplanes.Ihavepost-poliosyndromewhich
isnotanythingserious,buteverybodywhohadpoliohadorhasittosomeextent.Igetterriblycrampedandhavealot
ofmuscularproblemsonlongairplanetrips.ButIhavetodoitbecauseIgetalotofmoneyoutofmylecturebusiness.
Butit'swonderfulthatalotofthingsIcandoincyberspacewithouttravelingatall.I'mbeginningtoseehowatimewill
come,Idon'tknowallthedetails,atimewillcomeinwhichIcangetpaidformyideasbypeopleinTokyoandBerlin

withoutactuallytravelingtoTokyoandBerlininthosegoddamnuncomfortableplanes.Iwon'thavetotravel.Inorderto
compete,theairlineswillhavetomakemorecomfortableairplanes,finally,whichtheyshouldhavedone30yearsagoor
50yearsago.It'sridiculousthatairplanesaresouncomfortable.
CCN:SooneeffectoftheInternetmightbemorelegroom.
RAW:Yes,theymightbuildairplanesthatyou'renotuncomfortablein,justsotheycancompete.
CCN:Wecanonlyhope,thatandbetterfood.
RAW:[laughs]Andbetterfood,yeah.
CCN:HaveyoumetanybodyontheInternetnow?OneofthegreatthingsabouttheInternetisthefactthatyoucan
meetpeopleinsafety.Youcanmeetmindtomindwithouthavingtoworryaboutthesafetyofthebodyoreventhe
comfort.
RAW:Ilikethat.Youknow,theIrishhaveawonderfulcustom.IlivedinIrelandforsixyears.Theyhaveawonderful
custom.Youneverinviteanybodytoyourhome,andyouneverexpectanybodytoinviteyoutotheirhomewhenyou're
firstgettingtoknoweachother.Youagreetomeetatapub.That'sverycomfortablebecauseyoudon'thavetofigure
howthehelltogetthemoutthedoorifyoudon'tlikethem.Allyoudoissay,"Oh,geez,it'sgettinglate,"andyouleave
thepub,youknow.Andwedon'thaveanequivalentinstitutioninAmerica.
E-maildoesit.Ifyoufindsomebodywho'sincompatible,youjuststopansweringthemandtheygetoffeventually.
CCN:YoumentionedsomethingearlierinconversationabouttheramshacklenatureoftheInternet...
RAW:Yeah,theramshackle.IstartedreferringtoInternetas"ramshackletechnoanarchism"becauseit'sgrowingand
changingallthetime,andthepartsaren'talwaysperfectlycompatible,andI'vebeguntodiscoverthatsomethingsare
notmistakesonmypart,it'sjustthesystemisweird.
Anditalwayswillbebecausethere'salwaysnewsoftwareandhardware,andthingsarealwayschangingandbeing
added.AndsometimesI'mgoingthroughCern,andsuddenlyI'mcutoff,andGodknowswhy.ButI'mprettysure,some
cases,it'snotamistakeImade,it'sjustthat'sthenatureofthesystem.Butthat'sthewaytheworldismoreandmore
becoming.
Internethelpsyoutogetusedtothefactthatwe'relivinginaworldwhereeverythingisbeingtorndownandrebuilt
continually.TheBuddhaunderstoodthat,butveryfewpeoplesinceBuddhahaveunderstoodit.
CCN:WhatdoyouthinktheInternet'sgoingtodopolitically?Previousformsofcommunication,especiallymass
communicationhaveallbeenbroadcastoriented.WiththeInternetyoucansende-mailtotheauthorandsay,"Iloved
yourbook"or"thebookstinks."It'sthesamewithpoliticianswhoarenowgettingonthenet.There'smoredirect
feedbackmechanisms.Whatdoyouthinkthisisgoingtodotosocietytosuddenlyhaveadialogcapable,planet-wide
communicationssystem?
RAW:Ihaveveryhighhopesforit.Ithink,well,toquoteanunpopularpoet,EzraPound,"Peacecomeswith
communication."
TheydidashowaboutInternetonchannel54afewweeksagoinwhichtheypresentedsomeevidence,whichIdon't
recalltoowell,thatInternetplayedalargeroleinthefailureofthecoupinRussia,theattempttorestorehard-line
Communism.And,Ithink,well,thisislongbeforeInternet,thiswasoneofthethingsthatIdevelopedoutofthestudyof
generalsemantics30yearsago,40yearsago.Communicationtendstosolveproblems.Notalways,butittendsto
solveproblems.Breakdownincommunicationtendstoaggravateproblems.And,soIseeInternetaspotentiallythe
greatestcontributiontoworldpeacethat'scomealonginmylifetime,andmayhaveplayedanindirectroleinalotof
otherthingsthathavehappenedbesidesblockingthehard-linecoupinRussia.
Since'89,wehadnotonlytheoverthrowoftheSovietempire,themostpeaceful,nonviolentrevolutionoverthegreatest
landmassfromEastBerlintoVladavostok.Nothinglikethathaseverhappenedinhistorybefore.Afterthat,we'vehad
theestablishmentofthePalestinianstate,thepeacebetweenthePalestiniansandtheIsraelis,veryuneasybutstillit's
there,it'sworking.They'rebothworkingtowardit.AndNelsonMandelacomeoutofprison.He'snotonlyafreeman,
he'snowthepresidentofthecountry.AndtheIRAandtheBritisharebeginningtonegotiate.TheIRAisnegotiatingwith
everybodyelse.TheBritishareagreedtojoininthenegotiations,andthepresidentofSeanFeinwasaguestofthe
WhiteHouseonSt.Paddiesday.Internetmaybeplayinganindirectroleinallthesethings.
CCN:Whenyoutalkaboutcommunication,oneofthestatementsinIlluminatus!,andactuallyathemefrequentlyinyour
bookswhetherit'sstatedexplicitlyornot,isthatcommunicationsisonlypossiblebetweenequals.Let'slookatthe
GermansandtheJews.Howdoyougetthroughsomebody'sthickskull?
RAW:Well,youpickedareallyhardcase...
CCN:BosniansandSerbs,Imean,wecouldlookatthefeminists,thefeministsandthewhitemales...

RAW:Let'sgobacktotheNazisandtheJews.Idon'tthinkInternet,evenifitexistedthen,wouldhavenecessarily
deflectedthegeneralpathofNazism,thegeneraldirectionitwasgoingin.ButIthinkifithadexisted,ahellofalotmore
Jewswouldhavefoundoutsoonenoughhowbaditwasandgotoutquicker,sotherewouldhavebeenalotmore
survivors.Ithinkthat'sprettydamnclear.Atleast,Imean...we'vegottodistinguishsurvivors
andescapees.
Therewerethosewhowentintothecampsandsurvivedthroughsheergoodluck,andthenthereweretheescapees
whoneverwentintothecampsbecausetheygotoutbeforethathappened.Internetwouldhaveincreasedthenumber
ofescapees.Therewouldhavebeenamoreclearunderstandingofwhatwasgoingon.Internetwouldhave,
undoubtedly,putenoughpressureontheUnitedStatestoacceptmoreJewishrefugees.Rooseveltwantedto,buthe
knewwhathewasupagainstinCongresssohecouldn't.
CCN:Sothe"shipoffools"wouldhavebeenimpossible.
RAW:The"shipoffools"wouldhavelandedinNewYork,andtheyallwouldhavegottenoff.
CCN:So,attheveryleast,evenifthere'snotcommunicationwiththeadversary,therewouldhavebeencommunication
amongstthefolksinthesameboat,sothatorganizationwouldhavepossible,survivalorientedorganization.
RAW:AndalsotosomeextentInternetmighthavecutdownthesizeoftheNaziParty.Communicationdoestendto
breakdownprejudicesinthelongrun.
CCN:Well,let'slookattheprejudicesthatexistinAmericatoday.Peoplewithacertainleveloftechnologicalaccess,
incomeandeducationnowontheInternetfindthemselves,still,withthefundamentalinabilitytocommunicate.Alarge
amountofthecontentoftheonlinediscussiongroupsislittlemorethanpersonalinsultsandneverendingverbalwars.
RAW:Well,we'lljusthavetowaitandseejusthowmuchgoodInternetdoes.OneofthenewsgroupsIsubscribetoisfor
thetopicofFreeMasonry,andthere'saverylivelydiscussiongoingontherebetweenFreeMasonsandthepeoplewho
believeFreeMasonworshipthedevil.AndIdon'tknowiftheFreeMasonshaveconvertedanybodyyetandhave
persuadedthemthattheydon'tworshipthedevil,butit'sfascinatingthattheconversationisgoingon.AndIthinksome
peoplemaygetovertheideathatFreeMasonsworshipthedevil,someofthepeopleinthatdiscussion.Ofcourse,
somepeople,becauseoftheirownemotionalproblems,willneverbecuredbyanyamountofdiscussion.But
discussion,byandlarge,it'sbetterthannodiscussion.
CCN:Isthereanythingelseyou'dliketotalkabout?
RAW:Yeah,theonly...theonethingthatIreallyfeelstronglyabout...thatwehaven'tdiscussedisBillClinton.Ifeel
verystronglythathe'sgettingarawdealfromeverybody.Youexpecthimtogetarawdealfromtheright,buthe'sgetting
arawdealfromthelefttoo.AndtheonlypresidentIcanthinkofwhogotsomuchabusefrombothextremesbefore
ClintonwasF.D.R.,whoisnowrememberedasoneofthegreatestpresidentsweeverhad.
CCN:Whydoyouthinkthatis?
RAW:Well,Ithinkwe'reinatimewherepeopleareveryangryandveryfrightenedandveryimpatientforasolution,and
ifhe'snotdoingexactlywhattheythinkheshouldbedoing,theythinkhe'ssellingthemout,andsothatcomesfromboth
sides.ButasfarasI'mconcerned,IthinkClintonisthebestpresidentwe'vehadinmylifetime.
CCN:Seriously?
RAW:Yeah.
CCN:Whatmakesyousaythat?
RAW:Becauseheneversaysanythingconspicuouslystupid.Becausehefrequentlysaysintelligentthings.Becausehe
iscuttingthedeficit.Becausehe'sappointedmorewomenandminoritiestofederaljudgeshipsthanallthreepresidents
beforehimcombined,whichIthinkisveryimportanttorestore,tostarttoestablishanapproximationofrealjusticeinthe
courtsystem.
Andhe'sdonealotofotherthingsthatIapprove.Andalltheaccusationsofhimwaffling,weaselingandsoon,tome
that'samatterofevaluation.Tomeitjustlookslikehe'sanintelligentman.Intelligentpeoplechangetheirminds.
CCN:That'strue,buthe'smorethanjustamanoraperson,he'satotem,anicon.He'stheguywhohastomakethe
cropscomein.
RAW:Yeah,andhehasn'tmadethecropscomeinyet,butIdon'tthinkanyAmericanpresidenthassuchasuccessful
recordinternationallyinsolvingproblemsnonviolently.Ithinkthat'sanincrediblething.We'veneverhadapresident
who'sgoneintosomanyhotsituationsanddiffusedthem.He'shadalotofhelpfromJimmyCarter.Buthe'sobviously,
he'stheoneincharge.Ithinkyou'vegottogive...youcan'tsayJimmyCarterissavingClinton.Clintonis,Ithink,
Clintonisthemainstrategist,andJimmyCarteristhefront,theonewhohastheknowledgeofthepeople,themore
experience.

ButIthinktheClintonadministrationhasaverygoodrecordforsolvingviolentproblemsnonviolently,andthat'swhatwe
neednowthatthecoldwarisover,andwecanstarttothinkinnewcategories.Allweneedistostudyhowtomake
peace.We'vestudiedhowtomakewartoolong,andwe'vegottolearnhowtomakepeace.Andbesides,IlikeHillary.I
knoweveryrightwingnutinthecountryseemsto...regardherasamixtureofLadyMacbethandtheBrideof
Frankenstein,andIthinkHillaryisamarvelouslyintelligentandwittyperson.And,soBillandHillaryseemlikeavery
attractivecombinationAsArlen,mywife,says,"They'retheonlyfirstfamilyinourlifetimesthatwe'denjoyhavingfor
dinner.We'denjoyconversationwiththem."Ican'timaginehavinganintelligentconversationwithGeorgeandBarbara
orwithPatandDickorwithRonnieandNancy.
CCN:Whynot?
RAW:Theyneverstruckmeasbeingparticularlyintelligentpeople.
CCN:IsitpossibleforastupidpersontobecomethepresidentoftheUnitedStatesofAmerica?
RAW:Itsurelooksthatwaytome.ImeanwhenthedoctorsannouncedthatReaganhasAlzheimer's,myreactionwas,
Jesus,Iknewthat10yearsago.What'sthematterwiththemedicalprofessionthattookthemthislongtofigureitout?
CCN:So,wouldyousay,then,thatmaybetheexecutiveofthecountryisnotreallythepinnacleofpower.Imean,ifa
personwithcertainattentiondeficitsandwhateveryouwanttocallRonaldReagancouldbecomepresidentofthe
UnitedStates,aformerHollywoodactorcouldbecomepresidentoftheUnitedStates,doyouthinkthisspeaksto
somethingaboutthepoliticalsceneinAmerica?
RAW:Yeah,theypickedamediocreactor.IwonderiftheypickedPaulNewman,hewouldhavemadeamuchbetter
president.He'sabetteractor,andhe'sobviouslyamoreintelligentperson.I'dreallyliketoseeBarbaraStreisandas
president.
CCN:Shehasthepowerdriveforit.Whatdoyouthinkpsychologicallyaboutsomebodywhoaspirestobepresidentof
theUnitedStateswhowieldsalotofpowerover,let'ssay,situationsandotherpeopleandyouorI?
RAW:There'sprobablynotthatmuchdifference.Theyhaveadifferentwayofseekingtoinfluencehistory,butI
definitelywanttoinfluencehistory.Idon'tadmireKarlMarxinparticular...he'soneofmyleastfavoritepoliticalfigures.
Butifyouweretoputaguntomyheadandtiemetoaliedetectorandaskme,"What'syourhighesthopeforyour
books?"Itwouldbethattheyshakeupthe21stcenturyasmuchasMarxshookupthe20thcenturybutinamore
constructiveway.Notinadestructiveway.Ireallywanttochangetheworld.Ithinkeverybodyhasthatinthebackofhis
mind.Sosomepeoplewanttodoitbybecomingpresident.
BuckyFullerusedtoanswerpeoplewhoasked,"Whydon'tyourunforpresident?"Hesaid,"I'vegotmoreimportant
thingstodo,"becausehiswayofchangingtheworldisthroughinventions.Mywayisthroughbooks.BillClinton'sway
isthroughgoingintothatdirtyareacalledpolitics.Somebodyhastodoit.Somebodyhastocleancesspoolstoo.
CCN:DoyouthinkClintonandGingrichmightmakessomesortofateam?Aprogressiveteam?Afuturethinkingteam
asopposedtoanatavistictypeofteam?Willtherebeateamatall?
RAW:Well,Clintonhascertainlybeengeneroustowardstheoppositioninmanyways.WhenGingrich'smothermade
thatmistakeontelevisionofquotingNewtaboutHillary,insteadoftakingadvantageofthattotromponGingrich,Clinton
madeajokeoutofit."I'mgladConnieChungdidn'tinterviewmymother."He'stryingveryhardtobuildbridges.Ithink
thatishismainvisionofhimselfasabridgebuilder,aproblemsolverandabridgebuilder.That'swhathewantstobe,I
think.
CCN:Isthistherighttimeforsomebodylikethat?
RAW:Maybenot.Maybethisisatimeforextremists.Butinthatcase,we'reinforabaddecade.Ihopebridgebuilders
haveachance.
CCN:Ohboy,metoo.

ABriefGlossarywithContinuations
FredWolfe
Aquantumphysicistandmysticphilospher.AuthorofMakingtheQuantumLeap,TheBodyQuantum,andseveralother
booksonthehumanmeaningofthequantumequations.Basically,Fredholdsthattheobserver/observedlinkmeans
thatpoetryandshamanismareclosertotheessenseofquantummaththananylinearlogical"explanation"willeverbe.
PhysicsConsciousnessResearchGroup
Agroupofseveralofuswhousedtomeettodiscussthephilosphicalproblemsofconsciousnessinrelationtoquantum
theory.AmongthememberswereDr.FredWolfe,Dr.NickHerbert,Dr.JackSarfatti,Dr.ElizabethRauscherandvarious
others.

BesidesFredWolf'sbooksmentionedabove,otherworksinfluencedbythesediscussionsincludeDr.NickHerbert's
QuantumReality,Dr.Capra'sTheTaoofPhysicsandmyownQuantumPsychology.IlikeDr.Herbert'sQuantum
Realitybestbecausehepresents8alternativemodelsofwhatthequantumequationsmeananddoesn'tslantthingstoo
muchtowardtheonemodelheprefers.
theMarkoffChain
Apatternemergingoutofarandomorstochasticprocess.MyideasaboutthisemergedfromreadingClaudShannon's
MathematicalTheoryofCommunicationbackaround1950,sothewholestudyofsuchchainshasprobablychangeda
dozentimessincethen.
Shannon'sbook,however,unleashedsomethingmoreimportantthanthewayIuseormisusemarkoffchainsinmy
books.ThetechnologyofInternetneverwouldhaveappearedwithoutthemathematicsofShannoncreatingthe
bedrock.
BuckminsterFuller
Amanofmanytalents,oftencomparedtoLeonardodaVinciorBenFranklin.Fullerhasmorestructuresstandingthan
anyarchitectinhistory--around400,000ofthemallovertheworld.Everybodyhasseensomeofhisgeodesicdomes
bynow.
Fullerhasalsomadenotablecontributionstogeometry,topology,chemistry,etc.,haspublishedandtaughtpoetry,and
probablyinfluencedFutureStudiesmorethananysingleindividual.
HisWorldGameCenterinPhiladelphiausesthelatestincomputerwaretofindsolutionstoworldproblems,underthe
moralruleFullerinsistedupon:everysolutionmustbenefitallhumansandmustnotdisadvantageany.(Youcan'tsolve
problemsinthisGamebyrobbingPetertohelpPaul.)
Hisrejectionofbothcapitalismandcommunismandhisphilosophyoftechno-humanisminspireseverythingIwrite.At
present,IthinktheFullerideamostlikelytowinworldconsentandgetoperationalishisworld-wideelectricgridwhich
willlowerpricesforeverybodyandalso,curiously,lowerthebirthrateintheThirdWorld.FordetailsseehisCritical
PathandforupdatesseemyChaosandBeyond.
TimothyLeary
Themostcontroversialscientistalive,ofcourse.Ravinglunaticdestroyerofyouth,accordingtothemassmedia.
Greatestthinkerinthefieldofneuropsychology,inmyopinion.IthinkDr.Leary'sworkonre-imprintingneuralnetworks
(i.echanging"habits"ofperception,conceptionandbehavior)movedpsychologyfromapseudo-scientificculttoatrue
sciencebutanybodywhorepeatshisexerimentsissubjecttolongjailsentence,somyopinionisbasedonlythework
donebyLearyandafewdozensothersbeforetheInquisitionsaidwecouldnotstudythisquestionanymoreandhadto
accepttheirdogma.
AsaFuturist,LearymademeawareoftheimportanceofInternet,andIalsolikehisSMIILEscenario--SpaceMigration,
IntelligenceIncrease,LifeExtension.
orgone
AhypotheticalenergydiscoveredorhallucinatedbyDr.WilhelmReich.EverybodyIcandiscoverwhorepeatedDr.
Reich'sexperimentsalsosharesthisdiscoveryorhallucination.Everybodywhodoesnotdotheexperimentsknowsthat
orgoneisjustnonsense.Iguessitismucheasiertoknowthingswhenyoudon'tinvestigatethem.
ThelatestconfirmationofReichcamefromaPh.D.paperattheUniveristyofMarburg,Germany.Youcanbuyacopyof
thispaper(adouble-bindrandomizedexperiment)fromNaturalEnergyWorks,POBox864,ElCerritoCA94950.
TheForteanTimes
Journalofweirdandinexplicabledata.BasedontheworksofCharlesFort,whotriedtointroduceasmuchskepticismto
thestudyofscienceassciencehadintroducedtothestudyofreligion.Box2409LondonEnglandNW54NPs
SharonPresley,Ph.D.
OneofthefoundersoftheAllianceofLibertarianFeministsandcurrentlydirectorofResourcesforIndependent
Thinking,anonprofitorganizationdedicatedtocorrectingcommonlogicalerrorsorpopularmyths.email:rit@well.com
AllianceofLibertarianFeminists
Inmyopinion,themostrationalandleastkookyofallFeministgroups.(Idon'tmeannoneoftheothersarerationaland
non-kookyjustthatthisonetopsthelist.)
RobinMorgan
OneofmyleastfavoriteFeminists.Ican'tfindonejotofdifferenceinlogicalstructurebetweenheranti-malerantings
andtheanti-JewishrantingsofAdolphHitler.Thelogicalfallacyinbothiscalled"allness"insemanticsor"illegitimate
abstraction"inothercognitivesciences.Aclinicalcasewhoalmostjustifiesthelabel"feminazi."
AndreaDworkin
Theladywhothinksallheterosexualrelationsaresadisticanddegradingtowomen.MaybeIknowaweirdlotofwomen,

buttheyallregardAndreaastheworstthingthateverhappenedtotheFeministcause.
CatherineMcKinnon
Themostintelligent,hard-workingandseriousenemyoftheU.S.ConstitutionoutsidethePatRobertsonwingofthe
Fundamentalists.
MarshallMcLuhan
Aseething,boilingvolcanoofideas,whodiedabout15yearsago.Someofhisideasseemnuttysomeseemabsolutely
brilliant.Ithinkhis"globalvillage"metaphordescribesperfectlywhatInternetisproducing.Hisslogan"Themediumis
themessage"whentranslatedintocommonsensereads"Themediumshapesthemessage,"andhisideasonthatrank
inimportancewiththoseofKorzybski,WhorfandVico.
EzraPound
Inmyopinion,thegreatestmodernpoet.Unfortunately,alsoanutinpolitics:abrilliantnut,butcertainlyanut.(Hissocial
theorytriestoblendConfucius,MussoliniandJefferson...)
Idon'tthinkhiseconomicsranksinthesameheightsofnuttinessashispolitics,andIbelievepartofitisaccurate...the
partwhereheagreeswithBuckyFulleraboutreplacingbankmoneywithoneormorenoninterestbearingcurrencies.

Thistextis,tothebestofourknowledge,inthepublicdomainandisavailableforyourpleasureandeducation.Itistransmittedunderthe
"FairUse"rulingsregardingthe1976CopyrightActfornon-profitacademic,research,andgeneralinformationpurposes.
Ifthereistheslightestcopyrightambiguity,pleaseletusknowandwillimmediatelyaddresstheissueorremovethefile.

the Art of 12
Sunday, April 20, 2014

THE DEATH INTERVIEWS: A Talk with ROBERT ANTON WILSON and TIMOTHY LEARY By Howard Hallis

THEDEATHINTERVIEWS:
ATalkwith
ROBERTANTONWILSON
andTIMOTHYLEARY
ByHowardHallis

Originally published in
Ben Is Dead Magazine
"The Death Issue"
1994

Death,beingasubjectthatonecanreallyonlyspeculateonatbest,isconsideredtobeoneof
thegreatmysteriesoflife.Itistheendforeveryexistingcreatureonthisplanet,andneitherking
norbeggarissparedfromitsclutches.
IdecidedtotalktotwopeoplewhoIconsideredtobeamongthemostintelligentliving
philosophersaroundatthetimetoseewhattheirindividualperspectiveswereonthesubject.I
puttogetheralistofquestionsandconductedeachoftheseinterviewsseparately.Theanswers
werequiteinteresting,tosaytheleast.
RobertAntonWilson,co-authorofthelegendaryIlluminatus!Trilogy,haswrittenextensivelyon
everythingfromparalleldimensionsandtheirrelationtoquantumphysics(SchrodingersCat
Trilogy),theuseofpsychedelicsduringlovemakingtoperpetuatemysticalexperiences(Sexand
Drugs)thedogmaticandsometimesreligiousrestrictionsofthescientificcommunity(TheNew
Inquisition)and,ofcourse,numerousvolumesonacertainsecretsocietythatmayormaynotbe
pullingthestringsinthegreatpuppetshowofhistory.FromU.F.O.stopsychologytopolitics,
Wilsonseemstohavecovereditall.Ifyouhaventreadanyofhisbooks,getovertoyourlocal
bookstoreandpicksomeofthemup.Theyaremindfuckliteratureatitsfinest.
DoctorTimothyLeary,famousforbeingthemanwhotoldtheworldtoTurnon,tunein,and
dropoutduringthesixtiesbyexperimentingwithvariousconsciousnessexpandingchemicals,
wasstillextremelyactiveintheareaofrapidbrainchangeandalteredstatesofawarenesswhen
thisinterviewwasconducted.Hisattentionwasfocusedmoreonthedigitalrevolutionratherthan
ondrugs,andtheamazingamountsofpotentialthatawaiteachofusintheyearstocomeas
technologyenablesustobettercreate,formandmanipulateourownrealities.Hehadnot
changedhisviewonpsychedelics,whichhestillsawasaninvaluabletoolforpersonal
enlightenment,buthewasntlivinginthepast.Hewasconsistentlylookingforwardand
embracingthechangeswithintheworldwithanoptimisticperspective,seeinginnovationsinthe
lastfewyearsofhislifesuchastheworldwidewebasgreatsteppingstonesforthehumanrace.
HisclassicbooksThePoliticsofEcstasyandThePsychedelicExperience,alongwithhis
fascinatingbiographyFlashbacks,allthewayuptohisvideoworkwithdigitalartistsRetinalogic
(HowToOperateYourBrain)provideuswithabodyofworksovastandbrilliantthatitwasno
surprisethathehadgainedtheesteemofsomanygenerationsofartists,writers,andthinkers.
ImetRobertAntonWilsonbackin1992whenIwasworkingonaprojectthatwasgoingtobea
largemultimediaeventinPragueinwhatwasthenthenewlyformedCzechRepublic.The
projectfellthrough,butMr.Wilsonwasgraciousenoughtograntthisinterviewtomeafewyears
later.Mr.Wilsonhashadhisshareofexperiencewithdeathinthelastdecade,tragicallylosing
hislongtimefriendandwritingpartnerRobertSheaaswellashiswifeofmanyyears,Arlen,in
theyearsafterthisinterviewtookplace.Itmakesonereallyreflectonhisanswerstothislittle
queryandhowtheymayrelatetothoseevents.
IwasluckyenoughtoworkwithTimLearyduringthelastfewyearsofhislifeandwaspresentat
hishomewhenheshuffledoffthismortalcoil.Abouttwomonthsafterthisinterviewwas
published,hewasdiagnosedwithterminalprostratecancer.Whenheannouncedthefindingsto
us,hetoldmehewassecretlyrelieved.InthisinterviewyouwillseethatTimfeltthathehad
livedafullandhappylifeandwasreadytoexperiencefirsthandwhatwouldorwouldnotcome
next,evensuggestinganassistedsuicideifthecancerhadnothithim.Thisshockedmeatthe
time,sinceIwashisfriend,butIcouldnthelpbuttoadmirehowTimdealtwithhisowndeath.
NotoncedidIeverseehimactafraidorfeellikehewasavictimofaterribletragedy.Hewas
alwaysoptimisticthathewouldbeexperiencingsomethingwonderful.Toreadmoreaboutit,
checkouthisbookADesignForDying,whichchroniclesinmoredetailwhathisviewswereon
thesubjectofhisownmortality.
Anyway,hereistheinterview,onethatIamveryproudofandconsidertobethebestthingIever
didforBenIsDead.

HH:Theonlythingwearefairlycertainofisthatdeathisachange.Doyouthinkitisa
changeintoNothingnessorachangeintosomethingelse?
TIMOTHY LEARY: Nothingness or something else? (laughs) I think the way you approach
and navigate your own death or deanimation is the most important thing you have to
do in life. Im delighted that this issue is becoming public. Its of interest to me
because Im 73; and living in the 20th century as I have, I suddenly find myself, in my
senility, right on the frontier of whats become a new public issue involving individual
choice as opposed to state and religious control. One of my students at Harvard, Ralph
Von Ekarthburg, died about six months ago. He wrote essays about dying which moved
me deeply. One of the points he was making, and I certainly agree with it, is that
immortality is, in a sense, leaving some living aspects of yourself that are replicated
from generation to generation. For example, the funeral is a time when people come
to reanimate the corpse in the extent that: See here I am talking about this person
now He lives and is being recorded into this electrical appliance. Ralph Von
Ekarthburg made that obvious point. Thats not Nothingness. Thats something else.
ROBERTANTONWILSON:Well,myanswertothatislikewhataZen
MasterIheardaboutfromWavyGravyoncesaid.Somebodyaskedthe
ZenMaster,Whathappensafterdeath?Hesaid,Idontknow.And
theysaid,ButyoureaZenMaster!HesaidYes,butImnota
deadZenMaster!Confucioushasasimilarremarkinwhichhesays,
Firstweshouldtrytounderstandthelivingbeforewetryto
understandthedead.Imworkingontryingtounderstandthe
living.
HH:DoyoufeelthatotherculturespreparetheirsocietiesfordeathbetterthanWestern
culturesdo?ThatcertainculturessuchastheTibetansorEgyptians,forexample,
promoteamorepositiveoutlookondeathbybringingitoutintotheopenmoreandnot
establishingsuchafearoftheunknown?
RAW:Idistrustcross-culturalcomparisons.Ithinkeveryculture
hascertainvirtuesandcertaindefects.Ourcultureisnot
unanimous.WehavewhathistorianCraneBrintoncalled
Multanimity.WehaveevolvedintothisfromthetimethePapacy
startedbreakingdownwhenLutherhunghis95Thesesonthedoorof
thechurch.FromthatpointonWesterncivilizationhasbeen
breakingmoreandmoreintoMultanimityratherthanUnanimity.We
havelotsofpeoplewhoareHumanists,Secularists,etc.Wehavea
lotofpeoplewhoarestillloyalCatholics,150differentkindsof
ProtestantsandwevegotanincreasingBuddhistpopulationinthis
country.TherearemoreBuddhiststhanJews!Thisrathersurprised
me.EverybodysaysCatholic-Protestant-Jewarethethreemajor
religions,butitsnottrueanymore.Catholic-Protestant-Buddhist
arethetopthree,andAgnosticiscominginfourthplace.Im
delightedthatIgotinto4thplace!TheJewsare5th.Withthis
kindofMultanimity,Idontseewhatyoucansayaboutour
attitudestowardsdeath.Defineour.TheSalvationArmyrefersto
deathaspromotiontoglory,andIthinkthatsthebasicWestern
attitude,exceptofcourseforthosethatareafraidofHelland
thetinyminoritywhofeelweenteroblivion,andtheBuddhist
minoritywhofeelweenterjoyousoblivion.
TL:IthinkotherculturespreparetheirsocietiesfordeathbetterthanWesternculturedoes.
ItsbecausemonotheisticreligionslikeJudaism,ChristianityandIslamarereligionsof
control,dominationandtotalitarianism.Sonaturallytheyaregoingtotrainustothinkthatif
someoneisseverelyinjured,youcalltheambulance,andifthepersonisCatholic,youcallthe
priest.Theycomelikeblackvulturescirclingaroundthecorpse.Tomakesurethatthe
Catholicchurchcontrolstheconception,theycontrolchoiceabortionandtheyfanatically
controldyingProlongeddeath.Sacrament.
HH:Inwhatwaydoyoufeelthatdeathisrelatedtoenlightenment?
TL:Ihavewrittenaboutthisfor25years.Itsclichtorepeattheancientperceptionthat
peoplewhohaveaneardeathexperiencereportthattheirlifeflashedthroughtheir
consciousnessastheycameclosetothisbrightlighttheyenteredthetunnelandsensednot
atragedy,butasenseoftriumph.Thisisinterestingbecausethesearepeoplewhowould
interpretneurologicallythebodysendingsignalstothebrainsayingHey,wereturningoff
here!Weredying!Atthatmoment,likeacomputer,yourdyingprogramclicksup.Atthat
momentyoureoutofyourmind.Youreoutofyourbody,andyourbrainisdelighted!Because
yourbodysbeensuchadragalltheseyearsshittingandfeedingandallthat.Whatthat
meansisjustaspeoplesayduringapsychedelicexperience,yourelivebillionsofyearsof
evolution,withmysticexperienceitsthesamething.Itseemsobviousthatmanypeople,when
theirbodiesaresignalingtheirbrainstofallover,haveafullblownclassicmysticalexperience.
YouhaveahundredbillionneuronssayingVROOM!Suddenlyyouvegotallthisstuffgoingon
inyourbrainthatwouldconfuseyouifyouhadtodrivecarsorgettoiletpapertowipeyour

ass.Thatsoneoftheobviousthingsaboutanyexperiencethatknocksoutthemindandthe
wordprocessingsystemtogetTimelessness.TheTibetanBookofTheDeadwasthefirst
insightIhadintothis,whichwere-didin1964-1965.Thisbooktellsyouthestagesofdeanimation.
RAW:Thereissomekindofsimilarity.Ithinkeverykindofextreme
expandedconsciousness,ordegreesofexpandedconsciousness,
partakesalotofwhatpeoplewhohavehadneardeathexperiences
describe.ThefilmFearless(withJeffBridges)isafascinating
studyofsomeonewhohasbeenthroughaneardeathexperience.It
leavesJeffBridgescharacterinastatethatisverysimilarto
thatofadvancedmystics,onlynotquite,becausehewasntinthe
mysticalcontextofalotoftraining.Sohesgothisownweird
slantonit,whichiswhathappenstoalotofpeoplewhogetshoved
intothosealteredstatesunexpectedlyandhavetofigureoutfor
themselveswhatitmeans.Ithinkbeingthreatenedbydeathisa
reallyhorriblelearningexperience.Dr.JohnsonsaidthatBeing
sentencedtodeathcentersyourmindlikenootherexperience.
HH:Doyoufeelthereisarelationbetweendeathandorgasm?
RAW:Obviously.TheElizabethansShakespeare,JohnDonnealot
ofthemusedeathasametaphorfororgasm.Orgasmwascalled
LittleDeath.Yes,therereallyisasimilaritybetweenneardeath
experiences,orgasmanddrugslikeLSD.Theyallknockoutyour
usualegointonon-egostatesofawareness.
TL:Whatdoyoumeanbyorgasm?Ifyouretalkingabouttheclimaxofsexualexperience,
thentheorgasmisabriefperiodofconvulsivemindlessnesswhichcausesgreatpleasure.
Therearemanykindsoforgasms.Basicallyitsaneurologicalstatewhichcanknockyourmind
out.Youreoutofyourmindwithsexualpleasure.Theplumbinginvolvedwithorgasmisa
wonderfulthing.Thegreatthingabouttheorgasmisthat(ideally)itinvolvestwoormore
people.IfyourelyinginbeddyingorifyoureintheHimalayashavingareligiousexperience,
youreusuallyalone.Thegreatthingaboutorgasmisthatitsalovableandwonderfulthingto
dowithsomebodyelse.AbasicofallquantumphysicsandSocraticphilosophyis:Doitwitha
friend!Theresnothingassadassomeonehavinganorgasmbythemselves.Whetheritis
mentalorneurologicaldoitwithafriend!ArthurKessler,aHungarianwriterwhowasin
NaziprisonsandStalinsprisons,hewroteagreatdealaboutevolutionandaboutselfdeliveranceandheandhiswifediedatthesametimeineachothersarms.Theyleftanoteto
themaidonthedoorsaying:Dontbothercomingupastheywereplanningtheirsuicide.
HH:DoyoufeelthattheJudeo-ChristianideasofRedemptionandSalvationmight
beattributedtotheindividualsabilitytoletgoofEgowithoutfearatthemoment
betweenlifeanddeath?Ifnot,whatareyouropinionsontheseconcepts?Istherea
HeavenandHell?
TL:Oh,thatsanimpossiblenon-issuethere!Itsallbablewordsanyway!Numberone,when
yousayJudeo-Christian,youshouldsayJudeo-Christian-Islamic,becausethosearethethree
monotheisticreligions,andtheyallstemfromJudaism.ItsnotconsideredcorrectinAmerica
tosayJudeo-Christian-IslamicbecauseyouregrantingtheArabsaplottohaveareligionof
theirownwithdifferentcodenumbers.EventhoughthroughoutmostofChristianitytheyve
beenveryanti-Semitic,Judeo-Christianisstillconsideredapoliticallycorrectstatement.All
threeofthesereligionssayyoumusttotallysubmittotheOneGod.TheverywordIslam
meanssubmission.Thewordmonotheismmeanstotalitarianism:Godandthepriestscontrol
everyaspectofyourlifeconception,pregnancyanddying.
RAW:IverymuchdoubtaHellbecauseitsortofmakesabadjoke
outoflife.WhocreatedHell?PresumablyGod,ortheDevildidit
withGodspermissionandsupervision.Idontbelieveinthatkind
ofGodorthatkindofDevil.WhosinHellanyway?Theuniversehas
somany,asCarlSagansays,billionsandbillionsofgalaxies
withbillionsandbillionsofstarsystems,mostofwhichprobably
haveplanetswithallsortsoflifeformswhywouldGod(presuming
thereissomesortofGodbehindallofthis)pickusoutofthe
wholeuniverseanddecidethatifitdidntlikeourbehaviorits
goingtotortureusforaninfinitenumberofyears?Icantbelieve
inthat.Imean,theordinarySadistsgettiredafteracertain
periodoftimeandhavetorest.TheideaofaDivinitysosadistic
thatitcangoonforaninfinitenumberofyearstorturing
creaturesfromoneplanetisobviouslythedelusionofsomekindof
paranoidandunbalancedindividual.Theresstillalotofnuts
around,andtheystartreligions.Peoplewhogetunbalancedin
certainwaysgetfollowerswhobelieveintheirparanoidvisions,
butIdont.Ifyouleftituptome,IcantthinkofanybodyI
wouldputinHell.TherearesomepeopleIwouldputinprisonfor
lifebecausetheyaretoodangeroustobeallowedtowanderloose,
butIwouldntputtheminHellforaninfinitenumberofyears!
Thatsunbelievablysadistic!EventheMarquisdeSadereadbooks,
wrotebooks,wenttotheopera,etc.Hedidntspendallhistime
torturingpeople,whichiswhatthisGodissupposedtobedoing.
HH:Inwhatwaysdoyoufeelthemediahasshapedourperceptionofdeath?

RAW:Themovies,television,popularnovelsthepopularmedia
entertainmentfictiontendstoaccepttheJudeo-Christianbelief,
withverylittleemphasisonHellandalotonHeaven.Everynowand
thentheytoywithreincarnation.ThenewsmediatendstobeCoverse
Humanist,andtheyregarddeathasabsolutelytheend,fallinginto
oblivion,extinctionlightsout.Ithinkittendstogivepeoplea
senseofruthlessnessandalienation.Thekindofattitudeyoutend
togetinalotofmodernEuropeanwriterslikeBeckettandothers
fromthemoreabsurdistschool.IfeltthatwayupuntilItookLSD,
andthensuddenlyitseemedtomethatallbeliefsareuncertainand
forallIknowImightgoonafterdeathinsomeotherform.Ijust
dontknow!MaybeIllbecomeextinct.MaybeIlltransforminto
somethingelsethatIcanimaginelikeacow.OrsomethingIcant
evenimaginelikeapointoflightininfinity.
TL:Mediaisthemodesofcommunicationandthewordsused.Allthreetotalitarianreligions
havetotallycensoredthewordsyouuse.TheIslamicsputfivemilliondollarsontheheadof
SalmanRushdiebecausehesaidthreeorfoursentencesinabookprintedinEnglishabout
Allah.Yes,thecontrolofwordsandthecontroloverthemodesofcommunicationmediais
whattotalitarianreligionshopetoestablish.
TheLATimes,inthefrontpagearticlebytheirmedicalwriter,saidthattobaccoistheNumber
OneKiller.Itattackedtobacco,itattackedanotherculpritalcohol.Turnsoutcocaineis
waydownonthelist.Theyusewordslikeculprit,preventingdeath,fundamental
Whattheywerebasicallysayingwasthatsex,drugsandrockandrollkillyou,andyoucan
preventdeath
HH:Byavoidingsexdrugsandrockandroll.
TL:Exactly.Imalwaysamazedathowrespectable,fairlyintelligentpublicationslikeTheLA
Timescouldsplashanarticlelikethisone,whichistotallynon-specific.Scientistsneveruse
wordslikeculprit.See,theyrepersonalizing.Demonizing.Turnsoutthattherearetwo
kindsofsubstancesthatcancausedeath.Oneissomethingimmediate,liketheoverdoseon
heroinoragunoracarcrash,whicharetheleadingcausesofdeath.Butnobodysever
overdosedbysmokingacigarette.Peoplerarelyoverdoseonalcohol.Whattobaccoand
alcoholdoislowerthelifespan.Smokersareaffecteddaytoday,sosmokerswilldieat75,and
theintelligentsmokerrealizesthatthosearegoingtobethefiveyearsofyourlifeyoure
goingtobeinabasketanyway.IheardthisargumentinmydebatewiththeheadoftheDEA:
Dontsaythatmarijuanaisapersonalthing.ThetaxpayerhastopayfortheAmtraktrain
whichwaswrecked.Thetaxpayerhastopayforallofthelungcancer.So,inotherwords,itis
theirbusinessbecausetheyhavetopaythecostwhenyourehookedupintubeswhichis
calledHealthCare,whichIcalltheultimatehumiliation.
Cigarettesmokers,becausetheydiefiveyearsyounger,endupsavingthetaxpayers$250,000
forso-calledHealthCare.Youcanattackthisargumenttheotherwayaround.
WhenIsignedmylivingwill,itsaidIcannotbekeptinahospitallongerthan48hours.I
absolutelywillnothaveanyofthatso-calledgovernmenthealthcare.Mylawyersaidtome:
Youjustsavedthetaxpayersprobablyamilliondollars!Iintendtode-animatewhenthe
qualityofmylifeissuchwhereIcannotthinkoremote.Thisisanormaldesireforhuman
dignityandfreedom.
Thewaythearticleistwisted,thattheseCulprits,Sinners,whosmokecigarettesand
drinkalcoholandgetinvolvedinrecklesssex,endupcostingthegovernmentlotsofmoney
buttheydont.Theyjusteliminatethe1to50%ormoreofhealthmoneythatgoestopeople
intheirterminalyears.
NowthisstudythatsaysTobaccokills,#1killerisatotallie.Gunskill.Accidentskill.AIDS
kills.Itissimplylappingoffthelastterminal,senileyears.Thisisdone,bytheway,by
governmentresearchers.Youwouldthinkthatanyintelligentperson,includingtheeditorsof
theLATimes,wouldknowthatnayresearchdonebygovernmentscientists,paidforbythe
taxpayers,isgoingtocomeoutwithresultsthatwillsupportgovernmentpolicy.Thewaythe
governmentisdemonizingtobaccosmokersanddrugusersandalcoholitsmoreflagrant
thananythingdoneinthePuritandays.
Ihaveatableastothebehaviorsorthefactorsthatlowerthelifespan.Tobacco:Fiveyears.
Alcohol:Probablyfiveyears.Thestatisticssaythatpeoplewhodieprematurelyaremainly
poorpeopleandtheymaybeblackpeople.Thatsthecold,blunt,horriblefact.Theydid
mentionsomethingwhichIveknownformanyyearsthatthe#1behaviorthatlowersthe
lifepanandcausesinflationofhealthfundsisgluttony.IwouldsaythattheaverageAmericanis
dangerouslyoverweight.ThisisknowninEurope.TheylaughatAmericansbecausetheyseea
busloadoftouriststhatareallfat,andtheyknowtheyreAmericans.Canyouimaginethe
problemsintheheartofa250poundmiddleclasswomen?Thestrainonherheartpumping
bloodandoxygenthroughabodythatisswollentwiceitssize?Thethinpersonwell,as
WilliamBurroughswouldsay:Youneversawajunkiewithaheadcold.
Imustconfesstoyou,Howard,fortwodaysIvesufferedoneofthosesuddenenlightenment
insightsthatourgovernmentandallofourmassmediaareasbadastheStalinistswere.
Whatpuzzlesmeishowawaretheyareconsciouslyofthewaytheyaremanipulatingthe
news.Thebigissuecomingupisaboutdeathandtherighttochooseyourownde-animation.It
turnsoutpeoplelikeDr.Kevorkiangotthemajorityofpeopleinthecountryonhisside,butof
coursegovernmentpeopletheDistrictAttorneysandthePublicHealthpeopleareliterally
throwinghiminprison.Thisisbasedoncertainreligiousassumptionswhichtheymaynoteven
beawareof.Thepatientswhosesufferinghealleviatesare(noquestionofit)desperate,notto
mentionhumiliatedHavingtohavetheirdiaperschanged,notbeingabletothink.Thatsof

coursethescariestthing---Alzheimersandallthat.Withtheapprovalofthefamilyand
videotapesanddiscussionsandseveralweeksofplanning,DoctorK.justhelpsthemto
deliverthemselves.Heisconsideredtobeademon.Thebottomlinewhichthebureaucrats
neveradmit:DoctorK.issavingthetaxpayer,withthe19peoplehehashelpeddeliver,
millionsofdollars!Nottomentionthethousandsofpeoplethatde-animateconsciouslyand
voluntarilythatrarelygetinthepapers.
HH:Whatwouldbeyouridealdeath?Howwouldyouwanttobehandledafteryoudie?
RAW:Ithinktheidealdeathistogoonliving.Theidealdeathis
temporary,psychedelicexperience,thenyouhavealltheadvantages
ofdeathandyoustillcomebacktoenjoylifesomemore.Imreally
infavorofabolishingdeath.Itsthe#1killeranditstimewe
madeaconcertedefforttowipeitout.
TL:Ivegiventhisatremendousamountofthought.Iintendtopressabuttonortomakea
decisionwhichisgoingtoleadtomyde-animation.Itsaverycomplicatedandtrickything
becauseIwanttodoitinsuchawaythatdoesntputaburdenonorembarrassmyfamilyand
thepeoplewholoveme.ButIintendtode-animateinthishome.Theresnowayyouregoing
togetmeoutofthislittleplotoflandherehighinthehills.Ihopetodieortoputit
bluntlykillmyselfunderthecircumstancesofthegreatestharmony,thegreatestdignity,
withtheleastamountofphysicalsufferingtomeandthosethatIlove.Iwouldsayintwoor
threeyearsfromnow.
ImadisabledveteransoIvegottotalaccesstoveteranshospitals,IvegotMedicareand
IvegotSAGandallthesehealthplanscomingoutmyears!Icanrunupabillofabout1
milliondollarsgettingtubes,implants,staffsofpeoplewhowillcarrymetothetoiletand
changemydiapersandwipethedrooloffmychin.Yeah!
Nothingismorescarytomethanagovernmentadministeringhealthcare.Thatistheultimate
oxymoron.ThebureaucratsinWashingtonandalltheinstitutionsandhospitals,theSenior
Citizenshomesandallthat.AboutthreeyearsagotherewasafrontpagearticleintheLA
Timesthatsaidtherewasbetween60,000and80,000seniorcitizenswhoarephysicallytied
downinhomes.Physicallybybondsandofcoursebynarcoticdrugs.Soheresavegetablewith
Altheimerswhocandonothingbutdroolandshitandisnotconscious.Ihaveagreatsympathy
forpeoplewhoareforcedeconomicallytoworkinaplacewhereyouhavetotakecareofthese
vegetables.Thatisthebottombottombottomoftheeconomicfoodchain.IftheyarecallousI
cancertainlysympathizewiththat.
Ihavethegreatestadmirationforfamilieswho,facedwiththeintolerablesufferingandlossof
dignitywithalovedone,father,motherorgrandparent,andwhoinviolationofthestateand
violationofreligionandcommonmorals,acceptandsupportthedyingpersoninhisorher
suicide.Ihavegreatrespect.WhenyoureadthestoriesabouttherelativesofDoctor
Kevorkianspatients,Ihavenotfailedtobeimpressedbythedeepsincerity,bythesemiddle
classpeopleinthemid-westwhoarefacedwiththeultimateissueandoutofloveandwisdom
choosetohavetheirsistergoalongwithwhatiscalledacriminalact.Iadmirethesepeoplea
lot.
HH:Doyoufeelthatweasaspeciescanevolvebeyonddeath?Isimmortalitypossible?
Ifitis,inwhatwaysdoyoufeelwewouldhavetoadjustasasocietytodealwitheternal
life?
RAW:Ithinkitsworthaimingfor.Maybetheonlywaywecandoit
isbytransferringourconsciousnessintosiliconchips.Maybewe
cantransferourconsciousnessintolasers.Maybewecanfindaway
tohavethebiologicalbodyregeneratingandrejuvenatingitself.
Theseareallinterestingareasofspeculationandtheresactual
researchgoingonthatmayyieldsomeanswerstothis.Idontthink
weshouldjustacceptdeathwithequanimityanymorethanslaves
acceptedslavery.Weshouldrebelagainstit.Itsdegrading!Its
insulting!Itspainful!Ithinkitsoneofthethingsweneedto
getridof.Iflifedoesbecomeeternal,Ithinkweregoingtoto
havetobecomeaninterplanetaryandinterstellarspecies,because
longevitywillmakethepopulationcrunchgetevenworseifwestay
ononeplanet.Withlongevityloomingandimmortalityatheoretical
possibility,weregoingtohavetostartexploringextraplanetary
living.Theressomuchenergy/resourcesoutthere,thatwill
quicklysolveallourenergy/resourceproblems.Ithinkitsa
coincidence,ormorethanacoincidence,thatinterplanetarytravel
andlongevityaredawningataboutthesametime.
TL:Therearetwoissueshere.Oneisthepreservationofthebrain.Yourbrainisputinabrain
bankandwhennanotechnologyhasreachedthepoint,sayin40-50years,whentheycanhook
yourbrainuptoabodyeitherthroughcloningorthroughbrainimplantsItsinevitable.
Theresatremendoustaboohere.Atremendoustabooaboutdying.Ihaveasilverbracelet
herewhichismyAlcorCryonicstickettohavemybrainfrozenandpossiblyputinabrain
bank.ItsshockingtomostadultswhenIsaythatImhavingmybrainputinabrainbank,soif
somepoorpersonhasahealthybodybuttheyrebraindead,theycanputmybrainintheir
body.Thattaboowhichyouintersecthereisalmostinevitable.Sothesensiblethingtodoisto
havesomeonepreservingyourbodyorcertainlypreservingyourbrain.Thenthequestionis:
Iftheycanhookyourbrainuptoabodyoraseriesofroboticbehaviormovers,whatabout
memory?Whataboutsoul?Ihavewrittenabout200pagesaboutscientificpreservationofthe
soul.Iconsiderthesoul,andIdontthinkthebrainisthesoul.Thebrainhangsaroundthe
soul.Ifyouregonnafindthesoulyouregoingtohavetogetinvolvedinoperatingyourbrain.
Inawayyoumightsaythatyoursoulisyourownpersonalsoftwarewhichprogramsyourbrain

andistotallyuniquetoyourcomputerbrain,andthedifferencesbetweenyourbrainandmine,
eventhoughyouandIareascloseinharmonyastwohumanscanbewhoarenotloversare
totallyuniqueandthatsascloseasyoucometodefiningthesoul.Theproblemis:Howdoyou
maintainmemories?Well,ifyouweretogooutintomygaragerightnow,youllseeover100
cartonscontainingrecords---justofthelast5years.Ihaveprobably1000cartonsinplacesall
overthevalley,SanFranciscoandhere.Everyrecordwhichhasanythingtodowithmyown
personallife,anythingIputmyhandwritingto,lettersthathavecometomeIalsosaveany
papersIgetofcauses,charitiesMostofthemIgetarecounter-culture:AIDS,womens
liberation,variousformsofnon-monotheisticreligions.Ivegotthelargestcollectionof
counterculturerecordsprobablythananyotherpersonintheworld.Whichmeansifandwhen
Icomeback,Illbeabletoaccessmymemorybank.ItseemsalmostludicrousthatIhave
everyrestaurantcheckthatIvesigned.IvegotarecordofApril1962thatIhadthisandthat
atarestaurantontheItalianRiviera.ItsnotthatIconsidermyselfthatimportant,butI
considermyselfarecordkeeper.Ithinkthatwithcomputerized/digitizedrecordkeepingand
lingusiticacceleration,anyonewillbeabletoaccessmymemorybankandknowmoreabout
whatitwasliketoliveinthecounter-cultureofthelast40years.
OnefinalthingIhavetosayaboutissuesofimmortalityandsuicidekillingyourself,
reanimation,memoryretrieval,nitrousoxideoverdoses(laughs)Youredealingwithvery
heavyconceptshere.Yougottakeepasenseofhumor.Yougottakeepasenseofhumorwhich
meansasenseofhumanity.IreallydontcarethatmuchifIcomeback,butIwanttoleavea
modelbecauseIwasluckyenoughtohavelivedinthiscentury.Toseethearrivalof
computersandtelepresenceandtelevisionanenormousexplosionofknowledgeand
informationandcommunication.
TheAlcorCryonicspeopleareextremelyserious.Theyhavetobebecausetheyare
personallyresponsibleeveryminuteofeverydayforthebodiesandbrainsofabout19people.
Sotheresalotoftechnicalheavyhackerheretheyhavetodealwithtokeepthecurrent
going.Imtremendouslyimpressedbytheirintelligenceandbythefactthattheyreall
Libertarians.IdeeplybelieveintheprinciplesofLibertarianism,whichisHumanism,butmost
ofthepeopleinvolvedintheLibertarianmovementhavenosenseofhumor.Thatsoneof
theirproblems.TheyresofuckingRIGHT!(laughs)
HH:Haveyouhadanypersonalexperienceswiththeparanormalinrelationtodeath?
Forexample,haveyoueverseenghosts,hadpastliferegressions,contactedor
channeledspirits?Ifnot,doyoufeelthistypeofexperienceispossible?
RAW:Ihaveneverhadtheexperienceofcontactingthedead.Ihave
hadexperiencesthatIestimatethatIevaluateasESP.Theycan
alwaysbeexplainedawayascoincidence,anditsanendless
argument,buttomeitseemedlikeESP.Ivehadalotof
synchronicity,muchmorethanmostpeoplewhostudyJung.Everybody
whostudiesJunghassomesynchronicities,butIseemtogetthemin
boatloads.
OnepsychictoldmeIsometimeschannelamedievalIrishbard
anothertoldmeIsometimeschannelanancientChineseTaoist
philosopher,analchemist.IthinkeverywriterchannelsEntities
andIsuspectweallhavethousandsofEntitieswithineachofus
thatcanfunctionastheywereindependentspirits.Idontbelieve
inthesingleego.Ithinkwehavemultipleegosandwhenonestarts
communicatingwerelikelytothinkitsthespiritofthedeador
somethinglikethat,butitsjustanotherpartofourselves.
HH:Haveyouhadanyneardeathexperiences?Ifyouhave,describethem.Didthey
affectyouroutlookonlife?
TL:IhaveaneardeathexperienceeverymorningwhenIwakeup!(laughs)Ireviewthe
wholesituationandIgroan,untilIgetacupofcoffeeandacigarette.Manyexperiencesthat
IvehadwithLSDandKetaminehavebeenoutofthebody.Themostpowerfulaspectofany
alteredstateexperienceisalienation.ThatswhatthebadtriponLSDisabout,whenyoue
totallyalienated.Alienation.ThetotalitarianmonotheistssaythatHellisbeingalienatedfrom
God.Inawaytheyreright,buttomedivinityisineveryhumanbeing,sotheultimateHellfor
meistobealienatedfromotherhumanbeings.
RAW:Yes.Ivebeenintwoautocrashesandtheoutstandingthing
thatstruckmewashowcalmIbecamewhenIthoughtIwasaboutto
die.IthinkHollywoodgenerallygivesthewrongpictureofhow
peoplebehaveunderstresswhentheresaplanedisasterinamovie
andeveryonesscreaming.Idontthinkanybodyhasenergyto
scream.Yougoverymuchintoyourselfandyougetverycalm.At
leastthatiswhathappenedtomewhenIwasinthecaraccidents.
IvehadexperienceswithKetaminethatdefinitelysuggestedtome
thatIhadleftmybodyandenteredanotherform,whichisrather
vaguebutIdontwanttobedogmaticaboutitbysayingIwas
travelingintheastralplaneorsomethinglikethat.AllIknowis
thatitwasanon-bodyexperience.Ithinkthatoccursmuchmore
oftenthanweusedtothinkliketheout-of-bodyexperiencesthat
peoplehaveonoperatingtablesorwhentheyarewoundedinthewar.
IthappenedtoHemingwayinWorldWarIwhenhewaswounded.Those
thingsareveryinterestingandverysuggestiveandgivemethe
feelingthatifIdontlivelongenoughtoseetheLongevity
Revolution,Istillmaysurviveinsomeotherform.

***

FiringtheCosmicTrigger
@

MavericksoftheMindand
VoicesfromtheEdge
containthought-provoking
interviewsbyDavidJay
Brownwithoverfortyof
theleadingthinkersofour
timeonthesubjectof
consciousness.

"...informationisthesourceofallwealth"

withRobertAntonWilson
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BRANDNEW!
David'slatestbook:
Mavericksof
Medicine:
Conversationsonthe
FrontiersofMedical
Research:Exploring
theFutureof
MedicinewithAndrew
Weil,JackKevorkian,
BernieSiegeland
RayKurzweiland
Others

RobertAntonWilsonearnedhisdoctorateinpsychologyfromHawthornUniversity.From1966-1971hewasAssociate
EditorofPlayboy,andsincethenhehaswrittenover26popularbooks.HeisperhapsbestknownforIlluminatus!a
classicsciencefictiontrilogywhichheco-authoredwithRobertShea.HisSchroedinger'sCattrilogywascalled"themost
scientificofallscience-fictionnovels"byNewScientist,andhasbeenreprintedinmanylanguages.Intheareaofsocial
philosophyBobwrotesuchbooksasCosmicTrigger,PrometheusRising,andTheNewInquisitionHealsowrotethe
introductiontomyfirstbookBrainchild.Bobhasappearedasastand-upcomicatmanyclubsaroundtheworld,and
regularlyteachesseminarsatNewAgecenterssuchastheEsalenInstitute.Bob'spoetryhasbeenwidelypublishedand
in1986hewasaguestoftheNorwegiangovernmentattheOsloInternationalPoetryFestival.
BobhasalsostarredincollaborationwiththeGoldenHordeonaPunkRockrecordentitledTheChocolateBiscuit
Conspiracy,andacomedyrecordcalledSecretsofPower.Bob'splayWilhelmReichinHellwasperformedatthe
EdmundBurkeTheatreinDublinin1986,andmanyothertheatres.HepresentlylivesinSantaCruz,wherehecontinues
towrite,andco-editthefuturistjournalTrajectories
withhiswifeArlen.WeinterviewedBobontheeveningofJune18th,1989,athisprevioushomeinWestLos
Angeles.Asharp-wittedimpwithaBrooklynaccentandatwinkleinhiseye,Bobneverfailstohaveajokeuphis
sleeve.Heisajollypranksterwithanalchemicaltalentforblendingculturalmythos.Bobspokewithusaboutthe
Illuminaticonspiracy,brainmachines,synchronicity,mysticismandscience,nanotechnology,ecology,
extraterrestrials,andthemysteriousmythicconnectionbetweenSatanandSantaClaus.
DJB

SeeAlso:

Conversationsonthe
Edgeofthe
Apocalypse

RMN:Whatwasitthatfirstsparkedyourinterestinconsciousnessenhancement?
ROBERT:Korzybski'sScienceandSanity.IwasinengineeringschoolandIpickedupthebookintheBrooklynPublic
Library.Hetalkedaboutdifferentlevelsoforganizationinthebrain-animalcircuits,humancircuitsandsoon.Andhe
talkedalotaboutgettingbacktothenon-verballevelandbeingabletoperceivewithouttalkingtoyourselfwhileyou're
perceiving.
Itwas1957.Iwasveryinterestedinjazzatthattime,andItoldablackfriendaboutsomeofKorzybski'sexercisestoget
tothenon-verballevel,andhesaid,"Oh,IdothateverytimeIsmokepot."Igotinterested.Isaid,"CouldIbuyoneof
thesemarijuanacigarettesfromyou?"Hesaid,"Ohhell,I'11giveittoyoufree."AndsoIsmokedit.

Conversationsonthe
EdgeoftheApo...
DavidJayBrown
BestPrice$0.59
orBuyNew$20.97

PrivacyInformation

Inhislatestinterview

IfoundmyselflookingataquarterIfoundinmypocketandrealizingIhadn'tlookedataquarterintwentyyearsorso,
thewayachildlooksataquarter.SoIdecidedmarijuanawasdoingprettymuchthesamethingKorzybskiwastryingto
dowithhistrainingdevices.ThenshortlyafterthatIheardalecturebyAlanWatts,andIrealizedthatZen,marijuanaand
Korzybskiwereallrelatingthesametransformationsofconsciousness.Thatwasthebeginning.
DJB:ManyofyourbooksdealwithasecretsocietycalledtheIlluminati.Howdidyourfascinationwiththisorganization
begin?
ROBERT:ItwasGregHillandKerryThornleywhofoundedtheDiscordianSociety,whichisbasedontheworshipof

collection,DavidJay
Brownhasonceagain
gatheredsomeofthe
mostinterestingmindsof
todaytoconsiderthe
futureofthehumanrace,
themysteryof
consciousness,the
evolutionoftechnology,
psychicphenomena,and
more.Thebookincludes
conversationswith
celebratedvisionariesand
inspirationalfiguressuch
asRamDass,Noam
Chomsky,Deepak
Chopra,andGeorge
Carlin.Partscientific
exploration,part
philosophicalspeculation,
andpartintellectual
rollercoaster,thefree-form
discussionsareoriginal
andcaptivating,andoffer
surprisingrevelations.
Conversationsonthe
EdgeoftheApocalpyseis
anewlookintotheminds
ofsomeofour
groundbreakingleaders
andistheperfectgiftfor
sciencefictionand
philosophyfansalike.

Eris,theGoddessofChaos,discord,confusion,bureaucracyandinternationalrelations.Theyhavenodogmas,butone
catma.Thecatmaisthateverythingintheuniverserelatestothenumber5,onewayoranother,givenenoughingenuityon
thepartoftheinterpreter.IfoundtheDiscordianSocietytobethemostsatisfactoryreligionIhadeverencounteredup
untilthatpoint,soIbecameaDiscordianPope.ThisisdonebyexcommunicatingalltheDiscordianPopesyoucanfind
andsettingupyourownDiscordianChurch.ThisisbasedonGreg'steachingthatweDiscordiansmuststickapart.

Then,IappointedmyselftheheadoftheIlluminati,whichledtoalotofinterestingcorrespondenceswithotherheadsof
theIlluminatiinvariouspartsoftheworld.Oneofthemthreatenedtosueme.Itoldhimtoresubmithisletterin
FORTRAN,becausemycomputerwouldn'tacceptitinEnglishandIneverheardfromhimagain.Ithinkthatconfused
him.

Anyway,in1968JimGarrison,theD.A.ofNewOrleans--thejollygreenFrankensteinmonster,asKerrylatercalled
him--accusedKerryatapressconferenceofbeingoneoftheconspiratorsintheKennedyassassination.Garrisonnever
indictedhim--hedidn'thaveenoughevidenceforanindictment-soKerryneverstoodtrial,buthebroodedoveritfor
years.Thenheenteredanalteredstateofconsciousness.I'mtryingtobeobjectiveaboutthis.Kerry,whoservedinthe
sameplatoonasOswald,becameconvincedthathewasinvolvedintheassassinationandthatwhenhewasintheMarine
Corps,NavalIntelligencehadbrainwashedhim.
KerrydecidedNavalIntelligencehadalsobrainwashedOswaldandseveralothers,andhadbeenmanipulatingthemfor
years,liketheManchurianCandidate.Hecouldn'trememberwhathadhappened,buthehadalotofsuspicions.Thenhe
becameconvincedthatIwasaCIAbaby-sitterandwesortoflosttouchwitheachother.It'shardtocommunicatewith
somebodywhenhethinksyou'readiabolicalmind-controlagentandyou'reconvincedthathe'salittlebitparanoid.
Somewherealongtheline,KerrydecidedtoconfuseGarrisonbysendingoutallsortsofannouncementsthathewasan
agentoftheBavarianIlluminati.ThatgotmeinterestedintheIlluminati,andthemoreIreadaboutit,themoreinterestedI
got.SoeventuallyweincorporatedtheIlluminatiintotheDiscordianSociety.SincetheDiscordianSocietyisdevotedto
promotingchaos,wedecidedthattheIlluminatiisdevotedtoimposingtotalitarianism.Afterall,aDiscordianSociety,to
betrulydiscordant,shouldhaveit'sowntotalitarianbranchthat'sworkingagainsttherestoftheSociety.
PopeJohnXXIVthrewoutsixhundredsaintsonthegroundsthattheyneverexisted.TheythrewoutSantaClausanda
wholebunchoftheseIrishsaints.TheDiscordianSocietyacceptedthemonthegroundsthatwedon'tcarewhetherthese
saintsarerealornot.Ifwelikethem,we'llacceptthem.Andsincethesesaintswerewithoutahome,beingthrownoutof
theCatholicchurch,weacceptedthem.InthesamewayweacceptedtheIlluminati,too,sincenobodyelsewantsthem.

RMN:WhodoyouthinktheIlluminatireallywere--orare?

ROBERT:TheIlluminatihasbeenthelabelusedbymanygroupsthroughouthistory.TheIlluminatithatisbelievedinby
right-wingparanoidsisahypothesisthatleadingintellectualsoftheeighteenthcenturywereallmembersoftheBavarian
IlluminatiwhichwasworkingtooverthrowChristianity.Idon'tthinkthat'squiteaccurateIthinkthere'salotof
exaggerationinthatview.Idon'tthinkthatJeffersonwasamemberoftheIlluminatihejusthadsimilargoals.Beethoven
wasprobablyamember,butMozartprobablywasn't.Voltaireprobablywasn't,althoughhewasaFreemason.Anyway,
totheextentthattheIlluminaticonspiredtooverthrowChristianityandtoestablishdemocracy,I'minfavorofit.
DJB:WhatweretheIlluminatiouttoachieve?
ROBERT:ThehistoricalIlluminatioftheeighteenthcentury,asdistinguishedfromallotherIlluminatiofpreviouscenturies,
hadasit'smaingoals,overthrowingtheVatican,overthrowingmonarchies,establishingdemocraticrepublicsandgivinga
scientificeducationtoeveryboyandgirl.Mostofthesegoalshavemoreorlessbeguntobeachieved.Comparedtowhat
thingswerelikeintheeighteenthcenturythey'velargelysucceeded,andIthinkthat'salltothegood.
RMN:Manyformerlyheldsecretsknownonlytoaselectgroupofinitiates,perhapsliketheBavarianIlluminati,arenow
availableatthelocalmetaphysicalbookstore.Whatdoyouthinkarethesociologicalimplicationsofsuchinformation
exchange?
ROBERT:Oh,Ithinkit'swonderful.Ibelieveverymuchthatsecrecyisthemaincauseofmostsocialevils.Ithink
informationisthemostpreciouscommodityintheworld.Asamatteroffact,Ithinkthatinformationisthesourceofall
wealth.Theclassicaleconomictheoryisthatwealthiscreatedbyland,laborandcapital.Butifyouhaveapieceofland,
andyou'vegotcapital,andyouhirelabor,andyoudrillforoil,andthere'snooilthere--youwon'tgetrich.Whatmakes
somebodyrichisdrillingforoilwherethereisoil,andthat'sbasedonhavingcorrectinformation.I'mjustparaphrasing
BuckminsterFullerhere.Allwealthisinformation.Sotherefore,allattemptstoimpedethetransfer,therapidtransmission
ofinformation,aremakingusallpoorer.
DJB:Whydoyouthinkitisthen,thatittooksolongforoccultknowledgetocomeoutofsecrecyandintotheopen?
ROBERT:Well,that'slargelybecauseoftheCatholicchurch.Anybodywhospoketoofranklyformanycenturieswas
burnedatthestake.Sothealchemists,hermeticists,Illuminatiandothergroupslearnedtospeakincodes.
DJB:Soyouthinkitwasthefearofpersecution,ratherthanafeelingthatmostpeopleweren't"ready"fortheinformation
quiteyet?
ROBERT:Well,Ithinkthat'sarationalization,Youcan'tfindoutwho'sready,exceptbydistributingtheinformation.Then
youfindoutwho'sready.
RMN:ThewarsintheMiddleEastandtherisingfundamentalismintheWesthavebeenseenbysomeasthedeath
screamsoforganizedreligion.BothIslamandChristianity,however,havesurvivedmany"HolyWars."Whatdoyouthink

thefateoforganizedreligionwillbe?
ROBERT:Iwouldliketothinkthatorganizedreligionisonit'swayout,butI'vebeendoingalotofresearchonthe
eighteenthcenturyformyhistoricalnovels.VoltairethoughtthattheCatholicchurchwouldbegoneintwentyyears,and
it'shungaroundfortwohundredyearssincethen.WhenthePopedisbandedtheJesuits,Voltairesaidthat'stheend,the
Catholicchurchisfallingapart.Well,afewyearslatertheyreorganizedtheJesuits.TheKnightsofMaltaarerunningthe
CIAapparently,andtheCatholicchurchjustrefusestodie.Fundamentalismhasstagedacomeback.It'sfantastic.
I'mabigfanofH.L.Menken.Hewasaveryfunnysocialcriticofthe1920's.Hisbookswentoutofprintforawhile,
becausethethingshewasmakingfunofdidn'texistanymore.Nowhisbooksarecomingbackintoprintbecauseallthose
thingsexistagain.HewasmakingfunofthesametypeofthingthatJerryFalwell,JimBakker,andthatwholecrowdstand
for.It'sastonishingthewaythatthisseeminglydeadhistoricalinstitutioncameback,liketheFrankensteinmonster.Every
timeyouthinkit'sdead,itrisesupagaintoafflictus.TheAyatollah.TheGreyWolves.TheGreyWolvesarethebiggest
heroindealersintheMid-EastbecausetheybelieveAllahwantsthemtokillJewsandtheycan'tgetenoughmoneytobuy
gunswithoutsellingheroin.ThatmakesaboutasmuchsenseasmostoftheChristiantheologyI'veheard.
I'mamysticalagnostic,oranagnosticmystic.ThatphrasewascoinedbyOlafStapledon,myfavoritesciencefiction
writer.WhenIfirstreadit,itdidn'tmeananythingtome,butovertheyearsI'vegraduallyrealizedthat"agnosticmystic"
describesmebetterthananywordsIhavefoundanywhereelse.
DJB:Howabout"transcendentalagnostic"?
ROBERT:Yeah.Thewordagnostichasgainedtheassociationofsomebodywho'sjustdenying,butwhatImeanis
somethingmoreliketheancientGreekconceptofthezetetic.IfindtheuniversesostaggeringthatIjustdon'thaveany
faithinmyabilitytograspit.Idon'tthinkthehumanstomachcaneateverything,andI'mnotquitesuremymindcan
understandeverything,soIdon'tpretendthatitcan.
RMN:InRianeEisler'sTheChaliceandtheBlade,sheproposesthattherehasbeenaculturaltransformationfroma
cooperationbetweenthesexestothedominionofmaleoverfemale.Shesaysthatwe'renowatastagewhenmenshould
belearningfromwomen.Whatdoyouthinkaboutthis?
ROBERT:Curiously,1wasanearlyadvocateofthetheoryoftheprimordialmatriarchy.IgotturnedontothatbyRobert
GraveswhenIwasinhighschool.IreadTheWhiteGoddess,andthenIhappenedtoreadalittle-knownbookbya
ScottishpsychiatristnamedIanSuttiecalledTheOriginofLoveandHate,inwhichheusedthemodelofhistoryevolving
frommatriarchytopatriarchyandbacktomatriarchy.Someoftheseideashavebeenaroundmyheadforaboutforty
years.
CurrentlyItendtoagreewithEisler.There'snoevidenceofamatriarchyatall.There'sevidenceofapartnershipsociety.
It'sbeencomingbackforthelasttwohundredyears.Arlencallsit"stone-agefeedback."AsEuropeancivilization
conqueredandexploitedtheThirdWorld,ideasfromtheseplacescamedriftingbacktoEurope.Diderot,Voltaire,
Rousseau,thewholeenlightenmentwasinfluencedbytheideasofthese"primitives"havingamorenaturalandhappier
wayoflifethanwedo.Democracy,socialism,anarchism,andalltheradicalideasofthelasttwohundredyearswere
inspiredbystudyingstone-ageculturesfromthefirstproto-anthropologica1reports.
I'vebeenanadvocateforapartnershipsocietyforyears,beforeEislerusedthatterm.ThetermIusedwas"voluntary
association"whichcomesoutoftheAmericanAnarchisttradition.ThiswasaschoolofphilosophicalanarchistsinNew
Englandinthenineteenthcenturywhoareverylittleknown.Igotfascinatedbytheminthesixtiesandreadmostoftheir
books.TheideaofvoluntaryassociationmigratedtoEuropeandbecamesyndicalism,onlythesyndicalistsaddedtoitthe
ideaofoverthrowingtheexistingsystembyviolence,sothewholeideadevelopedabadreputation.Ithinkthebasicidea
ofvoluntaryassociation,orpartnership,istheonetowardswhichweshouldaspire.It'sthemosthuman,just,fair,decent
andintelligentformofsociety.
RMN:Doyouhavehopethatwecanachieveit?
ROBERT:Yes,Ido,inspiteoftheevidenceweseeonallsidesofstupidity,ignorance,bigotryandtheseemingly
inexhaustiblelustofthemassestobetrampledonbyFuhrerfiguresandfatherfigures.Iseethelasttwohundredyearsas
astaggering,groping,fumblingtowardapartnershipsociety.
RMN:RianeEislerdoesn'taddressthemasculinityoftheDevil-thefactthatinthissociety,thedarksideaswellasthe
lightsideofspiritualpowerisdepictedasmale.Doyouhaveanyideasaboutthat?
ROBERT:Theydohavesomeshadowyfemininecounterparts.There'stheLilith,thefemaleDevil,andburiedinJudaism
there'stheShekinah,thefemaleaspectofGod.I'mmoreinterestedinthewaythattheDevilinfiltratedChristianity
disguisedasSantaClaus.Veryfewpeoplerealizethearchetypesarethesame.It'stheoldpaganfertilitygod.Satanisthe
caricaturethattheChristianchurchcreated,butthefertilitygodcamebackasSanta,andhewearsthesameredsuitas
theDevil.ThenameSatanandSantaaremadeupofthesamelettersyoujustmoveoneandyou'vechangedSantainto
Satan.
RMN:That'sinteresting.TheDevilandsexualityarecorrelatedinmanypeople'sminds.Religiousandpoliticalauthorities
haveconsistentlyattemptedtocontrolhumansexualityandnipindividualfreedominthebud.Howdoyouseetheroleof
sexualityevolvingintothefuture?
ROBERT:IwasjustreadingJeanShinodaBolen'sbookGodsinEverymanyesterday,andIfoundsomeofmyselfin
Hades,thoughthat'stheyoungermebackinmyadolescenceandearlytwenties.IalsoseepartsofmyselfinHermes,but
IseeagreatdealofDionysus.MymysticalfeelingsandmysexualfeelingsaresoclosetogetherthatIfindithardto

understandhowWesternsocietyeverseparatedthem.ButthatjustgoestoshowthatI'maDionysiantype.Oursocietyis
runbyZeustypesandApollotypestowhomtheseparationisperfectlynatural.
RMN:DoyouthinksocietyisevolvingtowardsamoreDionysiancharacter?
ROBERT:Yeah.Wehavebeensincethesixties.WoodstockwasaDionysianfestival--itwastherebirthofDionysus--and
rightawaythelidcamedown.MyGodDionysusisloose!KingPentheusimmediatelycalledoutthecops.TheDionysian
religionhadenteredhiskingdomandhetriedtocrushit,buthewastornapartbyhisownmother.That'sawarningof
whathappenswhenyoutrytosuppressDionysusit'soneoftheclassicGreekmyths.LookwhathappenedtoNixon--he
gottornapart.Theonlypresidenttobeforcedtoresign.ReaganescapedunscathedbutIstillhaveanintuitionthathe's
goingtoberepudiated.IthinkthepeoplearegoingtobeasdisgustedwithReaganastheywerewithNixon--eventually.I
evenhadhighhopesthatGeorgeBushwasgoingtobeimpeached.Ofcourse,hepickedQuayleasimpeachment
insurance,butIjusthaveastrongsuspicion,basedonConfucius,thatthegeneraldeclineofmoralsandmannersinthis
country,thegeneralincreaseinthesleazefactorinAmericanlifeandthegeneralcorruptionandcrookedness,arealldue
tothefactthatpeoplelikeNixonandAgnewgetawayscot-free.TheyhadtelevisionpicturesofDeLoreanpeddling
cocaine.WhenIheardaboutthisIsaid,"Amanwiththatmuchmoneyisn'tgoingtobeconvicted,eveniftheyhavehim
ontelevision."Andhewasn't.
Onceeverybodybecomesawarethattherichcancommitanycrimeinthebookandgetawaywithit,thenthegeneral
attitudeis,"Well,whydon'twedothesame?"ThewholesociobiologyofConfuciusiswhentherulingclassaredecent,
honorable,gentlemenscholars,thepeoplewillbewelldisposedwhenthegovernmentisabunchofthievingrascals,the
peoplewillbecomethievingrascals.
We'veseensomuchofthat,andtheonlyhopeIcanseeisthatsomeofthemalefactorsinhighplacesgetpunishedsothat
asenseofjusticeandorderisreestablishedinthiscountry.I'mnotavengefulpersonandIhaveagreatdealof
compassion,evenforNixonandReagan,butIthinksomeofthosepeoplehavetogotojailtorestoretheideathatthere
isjusticeintheuniverse.
RMN:Thewhirlwindecstasiesofthesixtieshave,formany,settleddownintoagentlebreeze.Whatdoyoufeelwerethe
fleetingandlastingeffectsofthisculturalphenomena,andhowhaveyourattitudesdevelopedsincethattime?
ROBERT:Well,wewerejusttalkingaboutthatthismorning.Whatsurvivesofthesixties?Whatsurvivesindifferent
forms?IthinkBuckyFullerhitthenailonthehead.Hesaidthataround1972,thebrighterpeoplerealizedthatthereare
moreeffectivewaysofchallengingthesystemthangoingoutinthestreetsandrunningtheirheadsagainstpolicemen's
clubs.Sotheygotmoresubtle.Peopleareworkingondifferentlevelsandindifferentways,andit'sbecomeless
confrontational,butIdobelievetherearestillalotofpeopleworkingfortheidealsofthesixties.
DJB:Youmeanlikeinthemovieindustry?
ROBERT:Yeah,andintelevision,incomputers,inbanking,allovertheplace.
DJB:Really,inbanking?
ROBERT:Yeah.I'vemetacoupleofbankerswhoarereallyveryhippeople.
DJB:TimothyLearyandAleisterCrowleybothplayedsimilarrolesinhistoryandbothhadasignificantinfluenceonyour
evolvingbeliefsystems.Tellusabouttheeffectthesetwopeoplehavehadonyourunderstandingofconsciousness.
ROBERT:WellCrowleywassuchacomplicatedindividualthateverybodywhoreadsCrowleyhasadifferentCrowleyin
hishead.There'samillionAleisterCrowleysdependingonwhatpartofhimpeopleareabletounderstandandintegrate.
Crowley,astheleaderoftheIlluminatiandtheArgentumAstrumtheOrdoTempliOrientis(OTO),wascontinuingthe
projectofoverthrowingChristianityandaddedhisowntwistofrevivingPaganism(whichgoesbacktoGiordanoBruno
whowantedtodothesamething).Crowleyisaninterestingfigureandhashadabiggerhistoricalimpactthanmostpeople
realize.TheNeoPaganmovementisbiggerthananybodyknows,excepttheFundamentalists,whothinkit'saSatanic
movement--whichfromtheirpointofview,Iguessitis.
TheCrowleywhointerestsmeisthescientificCrowley.Hetraveledallovertheworld,gotinitiatedintoeverysecret
societyhecould,studiedeveryoccultsystem,studiedSufisminNorthAfrica,TaoisminChina,BuddhisminCeylonand
hetriedtounderstandthemallintermsoforganicchemistryandphysiology.Helaidthegroundworkforthescientific
studyofmysticismandalteredconsciousness.That'stheCrowleyI'mfascinatedby--Crowleythescientist,whocoexistedwithCrowleythemystic,Crowleythepoet,CrowleytheadventurerandCrowleytheGreatBeast.
RMN:TheGoldenDawnfromwhichCrowleygotmuchofhisinspirationwasamysticalschoolwhichisstilllivelytoday.
Haveyoufoundthissystemabletoremainflexibleenoughtoadapttotheculturalandpsychologicalrevisionsthathave
occurredsincetheOrderwasfirstestablished?
ROBERT:ThereareseveralGoldenDawnsaround,likethereareseveralOTO'sandseveralIlluminatisandsoon.Allof
thesethingsarefractionated,andofcourse,everybodywithapowerdriveinvolvedinthesethingsclaimstobetheleader
oftherealandauthenticSecretChiefs.TheGoldenDawnwhichIfindmostinterestingistheoneofwhichChristopher
HyattistheOuterHead.He'safullyqualifiedclinicalpsychologistwithagoodbackgroundinJungianandReichian
therapyandagreatdealoftheoreticalknowledgeofgeneralpsychology.
HewastrainedintheGoldenDawnsystembyIsraelRegardiewhowasalsoapsychologistaswellasamystic.Ithink
Hyattknowswhathe'sdoingIthinkhe'sgothisheadonright.Hedoesn'thavedelusionsofgrandeur.He'snotaprima
donnaandhe'sfreeofmostofthedeviantandaberrantbehaviorthat'schronicintheoccultworld.Whatarethegoalsof

theGoldenDawn?Unleashingthefullpositivepotentialofhumanbeings.
RMN:Whatarethemethodsinvolved?
ROBERT:TheoriginalGoldenDawninthe1880'susedKabbalisticmagic.CrowleyrevisedittoincludeKabbalistic
magicandyogaandabitofSufism.RegardierevisedittoincludeagreatdealofReichianbodywork,andaninsistence
thatanybodywhoenterstheOrdershouldgothroughpsychotherapyfirst.Hebecameawarethatpeoplewhogetinto
Kabbalistic-typework,especiallyintheGoldenDawntradition,whohaven'thadpsychotherapy,arelikelytoflipoutor
scarethemselvessilly.RegardiealsoinsistedthattheyshouldknowGeneralSemantics,whichisinterestingsinceitwas
GeneralSemanticswhichgotmeinterestedinthestudyofalternativeconsciousness.
RMN:WhydidRegardiewantthistobeincluded?
ROBERT:GeneralSemanticsisasystemthatisveryusefulinclarifyingyourthinking.Ifyouunderstandtherulesof
GeneralSemantics,you'remoreorlessimmunetomostoftheerrorsthatarechronicatthisstageofcivilization.Oneof
therulesofGeneralSemanticsisavoidtheisofidentity,whichisaruleIjustbrokewhenIsaid"GeneralSemanticsis..."
It'sveryhardtoavoidtheisofidentityinspeech.Wealluseitallthetime.I'mgettingprettygoodatavoidingitinmy
writing.Wheneveryou'retryingtofigureoutwhatthehelliswrongwithmythinking?Whycan'tIgettothebottomof
this?WhyamIconfusedaboutthisproblem?Writeitdownandtakeoutevery"is"andreformulateitinsomeotherway.
You'llfindthatyourthinkinghasbeentremendouslyclarified.
It'slikethecelebratedprobleminquantumphysicsinthe1920's.Theelectronisawave.Theelectronisaparticle.Those
twothingscontradicteachothertotally,whichledtoalotofphysicistssayingthattheuniversedoesn'tmakesense,the
universeisirrationalandsoon.Ifyoureformulateitwithoutthe"is"ofidentity,there'snoparadoxatall.Theelectron
appearsasawavewhenwemeasureitincertainways.Theelectronappearsasaparticlewhenwemeasureitinother
ways.There'snocontradiction.Therearealotofotherideasingeneralsemanticsthatareequallyusefulinclarifying
thought.
DJB:That'soneoftheclaimsoftherecenttechnologyofbrainmachines.Whatexperienceshaveyouhadwiththem,
whichonesdoyoufindthemostpromisingandwhatkindofpotentialdoyouthinktheyholdforthefuture?
ROBERT:ThemostoutstandingexperienceI'vehadwithabrainmachinewaswiththefirstone,thePulstar.Ihadanoutof-bodyexperiencewhichregisteredasflatbrainwavesontheEEG,andthatfascinatedme.Thatwasthefirstobjective
signIhadeverseenthatsomethingwasgoingoninout-of-bodyexperiencesbesidesheightenedimagination.Idon'tsee
muchdifferencebetweenalotofthebrainmachinesaround.Somearedemonstrablyinferior,andoutofcharityIwon't
mentiontheirnames.Someclaimtobeverysuperiortoalltheothers,butasfarasIcansee,mostofthemfunctionpretty
muchthesame.
Atpresent,I'mmoreinterestedinthelightandsoundmachinesthanIamintheelectro-magneticmachines,becausethere
issomelegitimatecauseforconcernthatsendingelectro-magnetismintoyourbraintoooftenmaynotbegoodforyou.
Thewholefieldisgrowingveryfast.There'sabunchoftapesputoutbyAcousticBrainResearchinNorthCarolina.They
useonlysound,buttheycombineitwithsubliminalsandEricksonianhypnosisinawaythatIfindveryeffective.They're
usingsoundatthesamefrequenciesthatyoufindintheelectro-magneticmachines,orthelightandsoundmachines.
TheGrahamPotentializerdoesseemalittlemorepowerfulthananyoftheothermachines,butIwouldn'tguaranteeit
becauseIhaven'thadenoughexperiencewithityet.WhatTwanttoseeismorecontrolled,double-blindstudiesofthese
machines,becauseeverybodyhastheirownanecdotalimpressions,butwedon'treallyknowyetwhicharethebest.
Whichwaveformsarethebest?Wedon'tknowthatyet.Whydosomepeoplerespondbettertoonethantoothers?We
don'tknowwhy.There'salotmuretobelearnedandI'mveryeagertoseemoreresearch.
RMN:Doyouthinkthattheuseofbrainmachinesrequiresanaccompanyingdiscipline?
ROBERT:Isuspectso.Onemanufacturertoldmethatthereturnrateisaboutfifteenpercent.Ithinkthesemachinesare
mucheasierthanthebiofeedbackmachines,buttheystillrequiresomediscipline.Ithinktheyrequiresomeprevious
experiencewithYoga,orZen,orsomeconsciousness-alteringwork.Youneedsomekindofpreviousexperienceoryou
justwon'tknowhowtousethemachine.Idon'tthinkthemachinereallyworksasanentrainerunlessyoupractice
betweensessions,tryingtorevivethestatewithoutthemachine.Alotofpeoplecan'tdothat,theyjustassumethatthe
machinewilldoalltheworkforthem,whichiskindoflikethinkingthatyoujustgetinthecarandit'lltakeyouwhereyou
wanttogo.
DJB:Thepotentialofnanotechnologyseemsfarmorevast.Howdoyouthinkit'sdevelopmentwillaffecthuman
consciousnessinthefuture?
ROBERT:Ihaven'tthoughtmuchaboutthat.That'saninterestingquestion.It'sgoingtochangeeverything.
Nanotechnologyisamuchbiggerjumpthananythingelseonthehorizon.It'sbiggerthanspacecolonization,biggerthan
longevity.It'samilliontimesbiggerthantheindustrialrevolution.It'sgoingtochangethingssomuchthatIcan'tbeginto
conceivehowmuchbuteverything'sgoingtogetdirtcheap.Theozonelayerwillgetrepairedrapidly.Wecouldcreate
redwoodsasfastandasmanyaswewant,andthenthere'sstar-flight.Idon'tknowit'sjustawholenewballgame,andit
leadsdirectlyintoimmortalism.
DJB:Howaboutnewwaystoalterthebrain?
ROBERT:Oh,ofcourse.EricDrexler,inhisbookonthesubject,talksaboutconstructingmicro-replicatorsthat,ifyoulet
themlooseinthebody,theyrunallovertheplace,inspectingeverycell.Ifit'snotfunctioningproperlytheygoback,get
informationfromthemaincomputerandrepairit.Youcanobviouslydothesamethingwithbraincircuits.It'llprobably

replacepsychiatry.Nanotechnologyissostaggering,wecan'tthinkaboutitwithouthyperbole,andit'scomingalong
rapidly.TheJapanesearespendingfantasticamountsonthatkindofresearch.
RMN:Whatdoyouthinkabouttheideathanmanyinventionsareactuallyrediscoveriesoftechnologiesthathavealready
existedinthepast?
ROBERT:That'salwaysseemedveryimplausibletome.Therearesomecases--thesteamenginewasdiscoveredin
GreeceandforgottenuntilWattrediscoveredit--butIdoubtthattherearemany.Mostthingsweren'tdiscovereduntilthey
couldbediscovered,untiltherewasthetime-bindingheritage,oruntiltheinformationaccumulationhadreachedthe
necessarylevel.Thisiswhyyouhavesomanycasesofparalleldiscoveryinscience,whereinfiveyearsthreepeople
patentthesamethingindifferentcountries.AsCharlesFortsaid,"It'ssteamengineswhenitcomessteamenginetime."
RMN:Whatifthereweretimeswhentheinformationhadaccumulatedbutnotthepoliticalorsocialclimatenecessaryto
appreciateit?Librarieshavebeenburnedandknowledgechasedundergroundbyauthoritarianforces.
ROBERT:Well,"Whereofonecannotspeak,thereofoneshouldremainsilent."
RMN:Alotofpeoplefeelthattechnologyisatoddswiththeirecologicalthinking.Whatdoyouthinkistheevolvingrole
ofthescienceofEcology.
ROBERT:ThefirstbookIeverreadonecologywaswaybackintheforties.ItwascalledTheRoadtoSurvival.I've
alwaysbeenfascinatedbyecologybecauseI'mfascinatedbywholesystems.That'swhyBuckyFullerfascinatesme.He
alwaysstartswiththebiggestwholesystemandworkshiswaydown.I'vewrittenalotofsatiricalthingsaboutpop
ecologybecauseIthinkalotofpeoplehavegotontheecologybandwagonwhodon'tknowtheirassfromtheirelbow
aboutscience,andit'sturnedintoakindoflateChristianheresylikeMarxism.It'sbecomeanewblamegame,where
peoplegoaroundlayingguilttripsonotherpeople.GuiltisveryfashionableinWesterncivilization.
AlbertEllissaidthemostpopulargameinWesterncivilizationisfindinganddenouncingno-goodshits.Ifoundthatso
impressiveI'veincorporateditintoacoupleofmyownbooks.Everygenerationpicksoutagroupofno-goodshits.In
theVictorianageitwasadolescentboyswhomasturbated,andnowit'scigarettesmokers.There'salwaysgottobesome
no-goodshitsforpeopletodenounceandpersecute,andtotheextentthatecologyhasdegeneratedintothat,itarouses
mysatiricalinstinct.ButofcoursethescienceofEcologyitselfistremendouslyimportant,andthemorepeoplewhoknow
aboutit,thebetter.
RMN:Themethodsofscienceandartarebeginningtoachievesomewonderfulthingstogether.Whatdoyouthink
createdsuchachasmbetweenthetwodisciplinesinthefirstplace,andwhydoyouthinktheyarenowmerging?
ROBERT:Scienceandart.Nowwhatcreatedsuchachasmbetweenthem?Whythehelldidthathappen?IthinkI'm
goingtogobackandblametheInquisition.SciencehadtofightanuphillbattleagainsttheInquisitionandthiscreateda
historicalhangoverinwhichscientistshadacutehostilitytoeveryformofmysticism,notjusttotheCatholicchurchwhich
hadbeenpersecutingthem.Ithinkthatrubsoffontoart,becausethere'ssomethingmysticalaboutartnomatterhow
muchyoutrytorationalizeit.Ifyougetabunchofartiststogethertalkingaboutwheretheygottheircreativityfrom,they
soundlikeabunchofmystics.
Thentherewastheriseofcapitalism.I'minclinedtoagreewithKarlMarxaboutthat,thateverypreviousformofsociety
hashaddifferentvalues,ahierarchyofvalues.Capitalismdoestendtoreduceeverythingtojustonevalue--whatcanyou
sellitfor?AndasOscarWildesaid,"Allartisquiteuseless."Thevalueofartdependsonwho'smanipulatingthe
marketplaceatthetime.It'sspooky.ArtistheSchrodinger'scatofeconomics.
Allofasudden,anAndyWarholisworthamillion,andnobodyknowshowthathappened.Thenit'ssomebodyelsethe
nextyear.Picassoneverpaidforanythinginthelasttwentyyearsofhislife.Hejustwrotecheckswhichnevercameback
tohisbank.Peoplesavedthembecausetheyknewthatthesignaturewasworthmorethanthesumofthecheck.They
knewitwouldbeworthevenmoreintwentyyears,andsoon.
SomebodyaskedaZenmaster,"What'sthemostvaluablethingintheworld?"andhesaid,"Theheadofadeadcat."The
querentasked"Why?"andtheZenmastersaid,"Tellmeit'sexactvalue."That'sagoodexerciseifyou'reintocreative
writing.Writeashortstorywherethehero'slifeissavedbythefactthathecouldfindthevalueoftheheadofadeadcat.
Itcouldhappen.Everythinghasafluctuatingvalue.
Incapitalism,everythinggetsreducedtoit'simmediatecashvalue.CitizenKane,totakeoneegregiousexample,is
generallyconsideredoneofthebestfilmsevermade.Itlostmoneyinit'sfirstyear,soOrsonWelleshadextremedifficulty
fortherestofhislifegettingenoughmoneytomakeothermovies.YetCitizenKanemademoremoneythananyother
moviemadein1941,ifyoucountuptothepresent,becauseitgetsrevivedmorethananyothermovie.Butthebankers
whoownthestudiosaren'tinterestedinprofitintwentyyears,theywantprofitnextJune.TheywantIndianaJonesnot
CitizenKane.
RMN:So,iftheareasofscienceandartaremergingitindicatesamoveawayfromthecapitalistperspective.
ROBERT:Yes.Ithinkinformationtheoryhasprobablydoneagreatdealtobringscienceandartbacktogetheragain.
NorbertWeinerinventedthebasicequationforinformationatthesametimeClaudeShannondid.That'sanotherexample
ofthingshappeningwhenthey'rereadytohappen.Weinerexplainedinformationbysayingthatagreatpoemcarriesmore
informationthanapoliticalspeech.Informationistheunpredictable.Aswecometorealizethevalueoftheunpredictable,
thevalueofarthasbecomeclearer.
YougothroughamuseumandyoulookataLeonardo,aBotticelli,aRembrandt,aVanGogh,aCezanne,aPicasso,a

Klee,aJacksonPollock,andit'sobviousthevalueofeachofthemisthattheyweren'tcopyingoneanother.IfVanGogh
werecopyingRembrandtnobodywouldgiveadamnforVanGogh.Hehadthechutzpahtopainthisownvision.
Somebodyhavingtheirownvisioninsteadofjustrepeatinganearlieroneinadifferentstyle--that'sinformation.
Informationisthenewandunpredictable,andinformationtheoryledtothecomputerswhichfascinateartists.Computers
haveopenedupwholenewareasofart.
DJB:Informationistheunpredictabilityofasignal,butit'snotquitechaosorrandomness.Itcarriesamessage.
ROBERT:Yeah.Whenunpredictabilitygetstoohigh,informationturnsintonoise.ThatpartofShannon'stheoryinvolves
verycomplicatedmathematicsandI'mnotsureIfullyunderstanditIjustmoreorlessintuitivelyfollowit.Therehastobe
aninformationredundancyratiowherethehighestgradeofinformationisdilutedwithrepetition.
DJB:Becauseit'ssounpredictableonecan'trelateittoanything.
ROBERT:Yeah.Originalityfrequentlylookslikechaosuntilwelearnhowtodealwithit,untilwefindtheredundancyinit.
DJB:Haveyouhadanyexperienceswithlucidorconsciousdreaming?
ROBERT:I'vehadalotofluciddreams,butIcan'tthinkofanythingthat'sparticularlyworthdiscussing.I'dliketolearn
moreaboutit.Ithappensspontaneouslysometimes.Ihaveaveryrichhypnagogicandhypnopompiclife,likePhilipK.
Dick.WilliamBurroughstoldmethathischaractersallmanifestasvoicesinhypnopompicreveriebeforetheyhave
bodies,ornames,oranythingelse.RobertShea,anoldfriendofminewho'sascientificmaterialistofthemostrigidsort,
reallyblewmymindbyadmittinghehearshischaracterstalking.Isuspectallwritersdo.Ithinkthedifferencebetweena
writerandachanneleristhatthechannelerhasfoundawaytomakemoremoneyoutofitthanmostwriterseverdo.
DJB:Synchronicityisamajorthemethatrunsthroughmost,ifnotall,ofyourbooks.Whatmodeldoyouuseatpresent
forinterpretingthismysteriousphenomenon?
ROBERT:Ineverhaveonemodel.Ialwayshaveatleastsevenmodelsforanything.
DJB:Whichoneisyourfavorite?
ROBERT:Bell'sTheoremcombinedwithanideaIgotfromBarbaraHonegger,aparapsychologistwhoworkedfor
Reagan.ShewroteabookdenouncingReagan,OllieNorthandthewholecrowd,givinginsidedirtaboutwhatshe
discoveredwhileshewasattheWhiteHouse.LongbeforeBarbarabecameacontroversialpoliticalfigure,shegaveme
theideathattherightbrainisconstantlytryingtocommunicatewiththeleft.Ifyoudon'tlistentowhatit'stryingtosay,it
givesyoumoreandmorevividdreamsandifyoustillwon'tlisten,itleadstoFreudianslips.Ifyoustilldon'tpayattention,
therightbrainwillgetyoutotheplaceinspace-timewheresynchronicitywilloccur.Thentheleftbrainhastopay
attention."Whaaaat!?"
DJB:Whatdoyouthinkhappenstoconsciousnessafterphysicaldeath?
ROBERT:SomebodyaskedaZenmaster,"Whathappensafterdeath?"Hereplied,"Idon'tknow."Andthequerentsaid,
"Butyou'reaZenmaster!"Hesaid,"Yes,butI'mnotadeadZenmaster."SomebodyaskedMasterEckart,thegreat
Germanmystic,"Wheredoyouthinkyou'ilgoafterdeath?"Hesaid,"Idon'tplantogoanywhere."Thosearethebest
answersI'veheardsofar.Myhunchisthatconsciousnessisanon-localfunctionoftheuniverseasawhole,andour
brainsareonlylocaltransceivers.Asamatteroffact,it'saverystronghunch,butI'mnotgoingtodogmatizeaboutit.
DJB:Couldyousharewithusanyexperiencesyoumighthavehadcommunicatingwithwhatyouthoughttobe
extraterrestrialornon-humanentities?
ROBERT:I'vehadalotofexperienceswithwhatcouldbeinterpretedasextraterrestrialcommunications.Theycouldalso
beinterpretedasESP,orasaccessingpartsofmybrainthatarenormallynotavailable,orascontactinganon-local
consciousnessthatpermeateseverything.Therearealotofdifferentmodelsforthistypeofexperience.Igotfascinated
bytheextraterrestrialmodelatonestageintheearlyseventies,andstill,everynowandthen,itmakesmoresensetome
thananyoftheothers.
Othertimesthenon-localmodelmakesmoresense,whichisadevelopmentofBell'sTheorem.Thiswasstatedmost
clearlybyEdwinHarrisWalkerinapapercalledTheCompleteQuantumAnthropologist.Hedevelopedamathematical
theoryofanon-localmind,towhichwecangainaccessattimes.It'sacompletequantummechanical,mathematical
modeltoexplaineverythingthathappensinmysticalandoccultexperience.Thatmakesagreatdealofsensetome,
especiallywhenIfoundthatJoycewasusingthesamemodelinFinnigan'sWake.IthinkitalsounderliestheIChing.I
explainthisatlengthinmybookCoincidance.
DJB:Howdoyouseeconsciousnessevolvingintothetwenty-firstcentury?
ROBERT:Itstaggersmyimagination.Igetaboutasfaras2012inmyfutureprojections,thenIcan'timaginebeyondthat.
Somuchisgoingtochangebythen.
DJB:Whatdoyouseecomingalongupto2012?
ROBERT:InLeary'sterms,Ithinkaboutone-thirdoftheWestnowunderstandstheneuro-somaticcircuit,andsome
techniquesforactivatingit.Ithinkthat'sgoingtoreachfiftytofifty-onepercentprettysoon--andthatwillbeamajor
culturalchange.Ithinkmoreandmoreunderstandingoftheneuro-geneticandmeta-programmingcircuitsarecoming
along.

It'sveryobviousthatquantumphysics,parapsychologyandalltheworkthey'redoingattachingbrainscannerstoYogis
andZenmastersmeanswe'regoingtolearnagreatdealaboutthenon-localquantumcircuit.Ithinkthehistoryof
mysticismhasbeensortoflikeabunchoffirecrackerswithtwoorthreegoingoffeverycentury.WiththeLSDrevolution
itbecametwoorthreeeverymonthandnowit'smovinguptotwoorthreeeveryweek.Iseearealaccelerationin
consciousness,justlikeintechnology.
DJB:Soonit'llbefireworkseveryday.Onefinalquestion,Bob.Tellusaboutanycurrentprojectsonwhichyou're
presentlyworking.
ROBERT:I'vejustfinishedabookcalledQuantumPsychologysubtitled:HowBrainSoftwareProgramsYourSelfand
YourWorld.I'mworkingonamovie,tentativelytitledTheCurtain,whichmayormaynotevergetproduced.I'vebeen
paidenoughsothatI'mnotwastingmytime,whichisagoodthingtoknowinHollywood.Thereareallsortsofpeople
aroundHollywoodwho'llgetyouinvolvedinprojectswithouteverpayingyouapenny,ifyou'redumbenoughtodothat.
Ifthemoviedoesgetproducedit'llhaveatremendousimpact.I'malsoworkingontwopossibletelevisionshowsandI'm
continuingmyhistoricalnovels.I'mdoingmorelecturesinmoreplacesthaneverbefore,withworkshopshereandthere,
whichinvolvesalotoftraveling.Altogether,I'mveryexcitedaboutwhatthenexttenyearswillbringintomylife.
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From HIGH TIMES Archives: Robert

Anton Wilson Interview
FRIOCT25,2013

ThisinterviewwasoriginallyappearedintheNovember1991issueofHIGHTIMES.Wilson
passedawayin2007.
ByPhillipH.Farber
BasedonRobertAntonWilsonsincredibleandvariedcareer,itshardtoknowwhattoexpectwhen
youmeethim.Thisisaguywhospentfiveyearsinthe60sasaneditorofPlayboy,thenwentonto
coauthor(withRobertShea)themind-bogglingIlluminates!,gotaPh.Dinpsychology,wrotetheNew
AgeclassicCosmicTrigger,collaboratedontwobookswithTimothyLeary,wroteawholebunchmore
onhisown,releasedapunk-rockalbum,andtouredasastandupcomedian.RobertAntonWilson

EVENTS

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yourcollegephysicsprofessorworeaslightlywackyBuddha,tobesure,crackingjokesand
recitingMontyPythonroutinesinapleasantlygruffBrooklynaccent.Wilsonsconversationis
startlinglylikehisbooks,hiswordstyingtogetheranamazingdiversityoffacts,theoriesandpunch
linesinawaythatgentlyprodsatyoursenseofreality.Ohwell.AsWilsonsreadersknowwell
enough,itsalwaysfuntowatchasyourpreconceptionsareblowntolittle,tinybits.
WhatdoyouthinkisresponsiblefortheWaronDrugs?
IsupposetheEliLillyCompany.
Howdoyoufigurethat?

TheWaronDrugsischieflyawaronpot,accordingtoJudgeSweet.Eighty-fivepercentofthedrug
budgetisgoingintopursuingpot-smokers.TheyretryingtodrivepotoffthemarketbecausetheCIA
ismakingabigprofitoutofthecocainebusiness,andEliLillyprovidesthematerialsthatthe
Colombiansneedtomakecocaineoutofthecoca.Sotheywanttokeepthecocainebusinessgoing.
Bytheway,doyouknowwhoownsEliLilly?
No,Idont.
TheQuaylefamilyownsalargepartandGeorgeBushownsalargepart.
HowmuchdoyouthinktheUSgovernmentisinvolvedinmaintainingthatsupplyof
materialsfromEliLillytoColombia?

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Well,thegovernmentisntdoinganythingtostopEliLillyfromsendingthosematerialsdownto
ColombiaandtheresalotofcaseswheretheCIAhasbeencaughtred-handedlaunderingdrug
money.TheywererunningabankinFloridaafewyearsagotheWorldFinanceCorporation
whichwasmainlyacocaine-moneylaundromat.AndthentherewasabankinAustraliawhichtheCIA
wasrunning,whichwaslaunderingheroinmoney[theNuganHandBankseeJan.91HT].Mostof
theirbanksweretiedinwiththeSwissAlpineBankintheBahamas,whichwasrunbyRobertoCalvi,
andArchbishopMarcinkus,sotheycouldrunthemoneythroughtheVaticanBank,whereitleavesno
record.
Ivenoticedthatalotoftheso-calledanti-drugpropagandaisphrasedinastrange,
negativefashionsortofreverse-suggest.Forinstance,Keeponsmokingcrackand
youllendupwithnothingcouldbetakenasasuggestiontokeepsmokingcrack.Doyou
thinkthisisdeliberate,oraretheyjuststupid?
Neverunderestimatethestupidityoftheestablishmentinthiscountry.Thestupidityofthe
establishmentapproachesinfinity.

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Theexecutivebranchofthegovernment,theCIAandtheVaticanBankarepretty

MoreInfo...

monolithicinstitutionstobeworkingagainst.Doyouthinkthereismuchchanceof
cannabisbeinglegalizedinAmerica?
Yes,becausetherearemoreandmorepeoplebecomingawareofthevaluablepropertiesofhemp,

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thankstoJackHererandalotofothersbutespeciallyJackHerer.Therearemoreandmorepeople

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whoknowthatwecouldberunningourcarsonhempandnotpollutingtheairthewaythatpetroleum

GIVEAWAY****Here's

pollutestheair.Alotofpeopleknowthatwecanprintbooksonhemppaper,andthatwillslowdown

yourLASTchanceto

thedestructionoftheforests.Itsanuphillbattleagainstdeception,greedandignorancebutitsnot
hopeless.

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Aretheresomewaystodothisthatyouthinkhaventbeenfullyexplored,butcanbe?
IthinkweshouldstudythesamizdatmethodsthatwereusedintheSovietUniontotransmit
informationwhenthecensorshipwassostrict.Wevegotcomputernetworksthatsoneavenuefor
distributinginformation.Meanwhile,wedohavealternativeradio.WehavePacificaandNational
PublicRadio,wherealotofinformationgetsoutthatcantgetintothemajormedia.Ithinkmoreand
morepeopleareawareofthatwhilelisteningtothoseradiostations.

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Wevebeentalkingabouthempbeinglegalized.Whatdoyouthinkisthepossibilityofany
psychedelicbeinglegalizedorevenjustacceptedbythepublic?
Imbeginningtothinkthattheresarealchancethatresearchwillbelegalizedagain.Therearemore

#cloudpeninyourpost.Eachuserislimitedto
1post!WinnerwillbeannouncedTODAYat
4PMPSTontheircommentthread!

andmorepeopleinthepsychotherapeuticprofessionswhoarespeakingout,andithasbeendelegalizedforresearchpurposesinseveralcountriesinEurope:Switzerland,GermanyandHolland,
amongothers.Thereisdefinitelyamovementtoward,atleast,legalizingresearchagain.Itdoes
seem,withthepassingoftime,thatmoreandmorepeoplecanseehowstupiditistoforbidscientific
researchinanareawheretheresearchthatwasdonethirtyyearsagowassopromising.
Enteryouremail...

Therewasevidence,intheearlysixtieswhenresearchwaslegal,thatLSDwasusefulinthe
treatmentofalcoholism,schizophreniaallsortsofpsychologicalproblems.Learytookabunchof
convicts,andwhenhewasthroughwithhistherapy,theoverwhelmingmajorityofthemnever
committedanothercrimefortherestoftheirlives.Andforasfarasthefollow-upstudiesfollowed
them,theywerestilllaw-abidingcitizensthemostastonishingfeatinthehistoryofbehavioral
science!Therewasalsotheevidencethatpeoplelearnlanguagesfasterwithacid.Andtherewas
theresearchonreligiousexperiences,liketheGoodFridayExperiment.
AllofthiswassopromisingthatitshardtobelievethatwecanreturntothedaysoftheHoly
Inquisition,andthatpromisingareasofscientificresearchcanbeforbiddenindefinitely.Especially,as
Isaid,whenitsbeginningtoopenupinEurope.

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YoumentionedtheGoodFridayExperiment.Whatwasthat?
ThatwasanexperimentintheearlysixtieswheretwentytheologystudentswereinachapelonGood
Fridayandtenofthemgotpsilocybinandtenofthemgotplacebos.Thetenwhogotpsilocybinall
hadmysticalexperiencesofthehighestquality.
WhatkindofresearchisbeingdoneinEuropethatyouknowof?
Mostly,itsclinical.AllthatIvereadaboutisjustthattherapistsareallowedtouseitinthetreatment
oftheirpatients.
Isthereawaythatyoudliketoseepsychedelicsusedbythissociety?

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Mypersonalopinion,basedonwhatwasdoneinthesixties,andwhathasbeendoneunderground
inaclandestinewaysinceisthatitsprobablythewonderdrugofthe20thcentury,muchmorethan
penicillin.Intelligentlyused,acidhasnearlyinfinitepotential.
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Doyouthinkthatresurgenceinpsychedelicusenowwouldproducethesamekindof
culturalfermentthatitdidinthesixtiesbringingideasuptothesurface?
Undoubtedly.Themaineffectofpsychedelicsistobreakdownconditionedandimprintedcircuitsin
thebrain.Youstartusingyourbraininnewways,whichmeansnewimpressions,newperceptions
andnewideas.
Howcanclandestineexperimenterswithpsychedelicsapproachtheseexperiences?
Itshouldbeapproachedseriously,withareligiousattitudeoranattitudeofphilosophicalinquiry.
Whatdoyoumeanbyareligiousattitude?
Anexpectationthatyourwholeworldisgoingtocollapseandthatyouregoingtobereborn.Ifyou
dontexpectthat,ifyouthinkyourejusthavingfun,yourelikelytohaveaterribleshockwhichcan
frightenyou.
Thatkindofexperiencemightbefrighteningtoalotofpeople.
Itis.Itcausesacuteparanoiainpoliticianswhoveneverusedit,anditsdonesomedamageto
peoplewhohavetriedit.Iftheyrenotpreparedproperly.
Doyouthinkelectronichighslightandsoundmachines,orelectromagneticheadsets
canfulfillsomeofthesameuses?
Notyet,butIthinkweregettingclosertothatallthetime.Iexpectwithintwoorthreeyearswewill
haveelectronicequivalents.Therearedifferentmachinesthatareapproachingitfromdifferent
anglesIdontnowwherethebreakthroughwilloccur.TherearesomanydifferenttypesofbrainalteringmachinesthatsomeoneisgoingtocomeupwithonethatactsjustlikeLSD.
Yousometimestalkabouttheevolutionaryvalueofstupidityinconnectionwiththe
developmentofthesemachines.
Yeah,Iveoftenwonderedwhytheressomuchstupidityintheworld.Itsgottobeservingsome
function.Nothingsurvivesalong-termevolutionunlessithasafunction.AndIfinallydecidedthatthe
functionofstupidityistoforcetheintelligenttobecomemoreintelligent.TheInquisitionvastly
acceleratedscience,andIthinkthattheNewInquisitionthatwerecurrentlylivingthoroughhas
inspiredallsortofcreativeworkthatwouldnthavehappenedifLSDhadremainedlegal.People
wouldnthavebeensearchingintosomanyalternativesiftheydhadLSDavailableforlegalresearch.
Inyourrecentnovel,NaturesGod,youvegotthesegreatsceneswithGeorgeWashington
smokingsomeherbinhiscampaigntent.Isthispurelyfiction,ordoyouthinkthatcannabis
reallywasinfluentialinthefoundingoftheUnitedStates?
Oh,Georgewasapothead!ThatwasdocumentedbyDr.MichaelAldrichbackinthesixties.Iquotea
lotofthedocumentationintwoofmypreviousbooks,inoneoftheappendicestoIlluminates!,andin
SexandDrugs[PlayboyPress,73].
Istheresomethinginherentincannabisthathadpeoplethinkingaboutindependence?
Youknow,thefirsthemplawwehadinthiscountryobligedfarmerstogrowit.Hempwasconsidered
sovaluablethattheywantedeverybodywhoownedafarmtogrowsome.Yeah,hempplayedamajor
roleinAmericanhistory.TheConstitutionwaswrittenonhemppaper.TheDeclarationof
Independencewaswrittenonhemp.Allofourearlyshipswerebuiltlargelyoutofhemp.
Whataboutthebuzzitself?Didthatalteredstateaffectthethoughtandeventsthatwere
goingonatthattime?
Yeah.PanchoVillawasanotherpothead.IthinkifyoucomparethemilitarycampaignsofWashington
andVilla,youllseethattheywerebothinfluencedbymarijuana.Theywereverynonlinear,thatswhy

theykeptgoingsolongagainstsuchimpossibleodds.TheBritishwerethinkinginalinear,
Aristotelianway,andWashingtonwasthinkinginanonlinearway.Thatshowheworethemdownover
sixyears.
DoyouthinkthereisawaytoapproachtheheadspaceofGeorgeWashingtonforthe
purposeofgainingindividualautonomy,whichseemstobethepresentbattle?
TheresaSufiwordthatIdontremember,forthemanwhodrinkswineinsecretanddoesntget
caught.Jesussaid:Beasharmlessasdovesandassubtleasserpents.Inamadworld,onehasto
pretendtobeatleastpartlymadinordertopassasnormal.Or,asJ.R.BobDobbssays:Actlike
adumbshitandtheylltreatyoulikeanequal.

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DoyouthinkthattheriseofstrangenewreligionsliketheChurchofTheSubGenius
[whoworshipJ.R.BobDobbs]ishavingsomeeffectontheculture?

FRISEP27,2013

WhenIfirststartedtalkingaboutthesedeliberatelysurrealistreligionstenyearsago,mostpeople
hadneverheardofthem.NowwhenItalkaboutthem,peopleintheaudiencehavealreadyheardof
them,andtheyyellPraiseBobandandthingslikethat.IwasatM.I.T.recentlyandIsawinoneof
themensroomswrittenonthewall:Bobistheonlyhopenow.Sodefinitely,thesereligionsare

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impactingalloverourculture.TherewasanAtaricomputerawhilebackthat,whenyoufirsttriedto
usetheprinter,itprintedoutahundredBobheadsbeforeitwoulddoanythingelse.
WEDDEC11,2013

Wasthatintentionaloravirus?
ThatwassomebodyatAtari.Atarigaveuptryingtofindoutwhodiditandjustsentaletterof
explanationtopeoplewhocomplained.Peoplewerewritinginandsaying,Whyismycomputer
printingoutpicturesofHughHefner?IneverrealizedBoblookedlikeHughHefneruntilIreadthat.
IstheDiscordianChurch,suchasiteverwas,stillatlarge?

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Oh,itsveryactive.
Whatstheevidenceofthat?
TheChaosComputerClubinGermanytheyinfiltratedthewholeAmericandefense[computer]

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system.
TUENOV12,2013

ArethereDiscordiansactivetothatextentintheUSA?
Onehearsrumors.

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Authors Titles Topics Editthistext Addthistexttoyourbook

Title:IlluminatingDiscord:AninterviewwithRobertAntonWilson
Author(s):EricGeislingerJaneTalismanRobertAntonWilson
Date:1976
Topics:discordianeconomicsfictioninterviewrightlibertarianismscienceskepticismviolence
Notes:ThisinterviewwithRobertAntonWilsonappearedinNewLibertarianNotes/Weekly39,
September5,1976.
Source:Retrievedon15April2011fromclevelandokie.blogspot.com
Downloads:

VariousAuthors

IlluminatingDiscord:AninterviewwithRobert
AntonWilson
RobertAntonWilson,whoalongwithRobertSheawrotetheIlluminatustrilogy,isthecreatorofyet
anothercult.Thereallyneatpartisthatthisisacultofhard-corelibertarian-anarchist-occult-mind
expansionistswhosedemandfortheIlluminatusbooksismakingSFretailhistory.Walkintoyour
cornerbookstoreandchancesareexcellentthebookshavebeenback-ordered.Borrowacopyor
waitinlineifyoumustitsworthit.Thetrilogyistrulymind-boggling,outrageous,andcuriously
familiar.Withthisinmindwesetouttointerviewoneofitsauthors,RobertAntonWilson(hereafter
R.A.W.)
Interviewinghimbymailwasanexciting,albeitfrustratingjob.Hisprovocativeanswerstriggered
seeminglynever-endingdigressions.Wehadtomoreorlesslearntolimitourresponses.Severalof
thequestionsinthefollowinginterviewappeartobeaskedbyR.A.W.himself.Thesearenotmisprints
hedoesgivehimselfquestions.TogiveyousomeinsightintoWilsonspsycheweofferyouthis
tidbitofdatatowit,hisreturnaddressrubberstamphashisnamemisspelledRobertAntoon
Wilson.Makeofthiswhatthouwilt.JaneTalismanandEricGeislinger(hereaftertheCRNLA).
*****
CRNLA:Tellusalittleaboutyourbackground.
RAW:IwasbornintoaworkingclassIrishCatholicfamilyinBrooklyn44yearsago,atthebrutal
bottomoftheGreatDepression.Isupposethisearlyimprintingandconditioningmademealife-long
radical.Myeducationwasmostlyscientific,majoringinelectricalengineeringandappliedmathat
BrooklynTechandBrooklynPolytech.Thoseimprintsmademealife-longrationalist.Ihavebecome
increasinglyskepticalabout,ordetachedfrom,theassumptionthatradicalismandrationalismarethe
onlycorrectperspectiveswithwhichtoviewlife,buttheyremainmyfavoriteperspectives.
CRNLA:Whatareyourfavoritenovels,movies,TVshowsandmusic?
RAW:Thenovelswouldbe,Isuppose,Ulysses,FinnegansWake,TheMagusbyFowles,TheRootsof
HeavenbyGary,DonQuixoteandanythingbyMarkTwain.Movies:Intolerance,BrokenBlossomsand
everythingelsebyDavidMarkGriffith,CitizenKane,TheTrial,KingKong,2001.TV:StarTrekand
MaryHartman.Music:BeethovensNinthandhislatequartets,Bach,Bizet,CarlOrff,Vivaldi,theless
popularandmoreexperimentalstuffbyStravinsky.
CRNLA:WhatdoyouthinkofM*A*S*H,theFreakBrothers,BobDylan?
RAW:IlovedAltmansfilmofM*A*S*HbutIcantstandtheTVseries.TheFreakBrothersarefunny,
butIdeplorethelifestyleitcelebrates.Ofcourse,EinsteinandMichelangeloweresloppy,too,but
onlybecausetheyweretoobusywithrealworktofixtheirattentiononsartorialstatusgames.
Hippiesgenerallyarentbusywithanythingexceptfeelingsorryforthemselves.Dylanseemstomea
totallyperniciousinfluencethenasalwhineofdeathandmasochism.Certainly,thiswouldbea
morecheerfulworldiftherewerenoDylanrecordsinit.ButDylanandhisaudiencemirroreachother,
anddeserveeachotherasMarxsaid,amorbidsocietycreatesitsownmorbidgrave-diggers.
CRNLA:HowaboutAnderson,LeGuinandHeinlein?
RAW:IhaventtakenAndersonseriouslysince1968,whenhewroteanaccountofthepolice-riotat
theChicagoConventionwhichwastotallyfalse,accordingtomyobservationsonthescene.I
decidedPoullovedtheVietnamWarsomuch,thathecouldactuallywatchacophitanoldladyand
rememberitasayoungcommunisthittingthecop.IhaventbotheredkeepingupwithAndersons
hallucinationssincethen.LeGuinisgreatalready,andgettingbetterbookbybook.Heinleinhasbeen
anidoltomeformorethan20years.Hecandonowrong,nomatterhowmuchheloveswarsand
hatespacifists.(ImthekindofanarchistwhosechiefobjectiontotheStateisthatitkillssomany
people.GovernmentistheepitomeofthedeathistphilosophyIreject.)
CRNLA:Areyouapacifist?
RAW:Hell,no.Ilikepacifists,asarule,andpeoplewhohaveaheavyemotionalidentificationwith

deathismandwarwouldprobablycallmeapacifist,butIamanon-invasivistratherthananonviolentist.Thatis,Ibelievethataninvadedpeoplehavetherighttodefendthemselvesbyany
meansnecessaryastheexpressiongoes.Thisincludesputtinggroundglassorpoisoninthe
invadersfood,shootingatthemfromambush,sabotage,thegeneralstrike,armedrevolution,all
formsofGandhiancivildisobedience,etc.Itsuptotheinvadedtodecidewhichofthesetechniques
theywilluse.Itsnotuptosomemoralisttotellthemwhichtechniquesarepermissible.AsTucker
said,Thereisnothingsacredinthelifeofaninvader.
CRNLA:Whatmagazinesandnewspapersdoyouread?
RAW:Ireadeverything,includingthelabelsoncannedfood.Imahopelessprintaddict,acondition
alleviatedonlybydailymeditationwhichbreaksthelinear-Aristoteliantrance.(Mostrationalistic
libertarianswoulddowelltotrythesamecircuitbreaker,orLSD.)NationalLampoon,Scientific
AmericanandGreenEggarewhatIreadmostobsessively.Ialsoreadatleastoneperiodicalevery
monthbyapoliticalgroupIdisliketokeepsomesenseofbalance.Theoverwhelmingstupidityof
politicalmovementsiscausedbythefactthatpoliticaltypesneverreadanythingbuttheirown
gangsagit-prop.
CRNLA:Anymoreartisticopinions?
RAW:IfImust.JamesJoyceismoreimportantthanJesus,BuddhaandShakespeareputtogether.
PoundisthegreatestpoetinEnglish.ThorneSmithshouldbereprintedimmediately,andwouldbe
enormouslypopularwiththecurrentgeneration,Iwager.ThenovelsthatgetpraisedintheNY
ReviewofBooksarentworthreading.Ninety-sevenpercentofsciencefictionisadolescentrubbish,
butgoodsciencefictionisthebest(andonly)literatureofourtimes.Alloftheseopinionsare
pompousandaggressive,ofcourse,butquestionslikethisbringouttheworstinme.Artistic
judgmentsaresillyifexpressedasdogmas,atleastuntilwegetanartometerwhichcanmeasure
objectivelyhowmanymicro-michelangelosorkilo-homersofgeniusagivenartifacthasinit.Doyou
knowthatatUC-Berkeley,Dr.PaulSegallhasalabfullofratswhoaretwicetheageatwhichrats
normallydieofsenility?Andtheseratsarenotonlyalivebutstillreproducing.Thismaybethemost
importantfactIknow.Dr.Segalhopestohavealife-extensionformulaforhumansreadyintheearly
1980s.
CRNLA:HasDr.Segallpublishedanypapersonhisresearch?Ifso,where?
RAW:Agood,non-technicalarticlebyDr.Segallonhisownworkandonotherapproachesto
longevity,isinthenewissueofSpitintheOcean,editedbyDr.TimothyLearyandpublishedbyKen
Kesey.Thatissue,incidentally,isalsoworthreadingforSiragandSarfattionquantum
consciousness,andLearyhimselfonhigherintelligence.
CRNLA:SpeakingofKenKesey,WhatdidyouthinkofCuckoosNest,andwherecanIgeta
copyofSpitintheOcean?
RAW:OneFlewOvertheCuckoosNestiscertainlyoneofmyfavoriterecentnovels,butIlike
KeseysSometimesaGreatNotionevenbetter.Infact,agreatdealofthestructuralrhythmsof
Illuminatus,especiallythespace-timewarps,weresuggestedbyKeseyssimilartechniquesin
SometimesaGreatNotion.ThewaytheproducersofthemovieofCuckoosNestswindledKeseyis
entirelytypicalofthewayproducersandpublishersrobwritersitsperfectlynormalCapitalist
ethicsandtypicallymammalian.
ThelastIheard,KeseywassupposedtohavethenewSpitintheOceanoutbymid-Summer.(Write:
85829RidgwayRoad,PleasantHill,OR97401).
CRNLA:Whatroutedidyoutraveltogettolibertarianism?
RAW:Arlen,mywife,discoveredKropotkinsarticleonanarchismintheBritannicaanditimmediately
convincedusboth(1961).WewerebothhighlycynicalabouttheallegedvaluesofCapitalismand
StateSocialismalready,andhappytofindanalternative.
CRNLA:Whatisyourpresentinvolvementinmovementactivities?
RAW:Immoreinvolvedinspacemigration,intelligenceincreaseandlifeextensionwhichseemstome
moreimportantthananymammalianpolitics.WhatenergyIhaveforterrestrialbrawlinggoesinto
WavyGravysNobodyforPresidentcampaign,theFiresignTheatresPapoonforPresidentcampaign,
andtheLindaLovelaceforPresident(whichIinventedmyself,sinceweoughttohaveagood-looking
cocksuckerintheWhiteHouseforonce.)Ithinkthesecampaignshavesomesatirical-educational
function,and,atminimum,theyrelievethetediumofcontemplatingtherealcandidates,amorethan-usualuninspiringlotthisyear.Votingwouldntexcitemeunlessitincludedelectingthedirectors
ofthebigbanksandcorporations,whomaketherealdecisionsthataffectourlives.Itshardtoget
excitedaboutthetrainedsealsinWashington.Ofcourse,ifvotingcouldchangethesystem,itwould
beillegal.Teacherswouldbehandlingoutpamphletsforchildrentotakehomeprovingthatvoting
machinescausechromosomedamage,andArtLinkletterwouldclaimthataballotboxdrovehis
daughtertosuicide.
CRNLA:TheresanotherVoteforNobodyCampaignbeingrunbyMalibu.Haveyouheardofit?
Areyouinterestedinit?
RAW:Gladtohearit.TheresathirdNobodyforPresidentheadquartersinWashington,D.C.The
morethemerrier.Oneofmyfriends,theArchDruidoftheBerkeleyGroveoftheReformedDruidsof
NorthAmerica,isrunningGeorgeIIIforPresidentalthoughIadmitthatthesatiricalpointthereis
abitobscureforme.Ivealsoheard,vaguely,aboutaWho-the-HellforPresidentcampaign.Theres
alsoaBonzoforPresidentpostergoingaround,Bonzobeingachimpanzeewhoonceco-starredwith
theegregiousRonaldReaganinaratherdumbmovie.TheAmericanpeople,whoelectedRichard
Nixontwice,shouldnotfindanyofthesechoicesabsurd.Butbeforeleavingthissubject,Ishould
mentionthesanestpoliticalproposalIveheardinyears,theGunsandDopePartyproposedbymy
goodfriend,Rev.WilliamHelmer(who,likemanyofthecharactersinIlluminatus,existsalsoinsocalledconsensusreality.)TheGunsandDopeParty,asthenamesuggests,wouldbebasedona
platformdemandinganendtoallgovernmentinterferencewithgunsanddope.Now,whilethegunnutstendtobeparanoidaboutthedopers,andviceversa,theGunsandDopePartyisapossible
libertariancoalitionthatwouldconstituteaclearmajorityandcouldreallywinanelection.Allthats
neededforsuccess,then,isforthegun-peopleandthedope-peopletounderstandfullythe
advantagesofaffiliatingthatis,theverygoodchanceofrealsuccessatthepolls.Hopefully,this
mightbeenoughtopersuadethemtodroptheirmutualanimosity.Ifthiscanbeaccomplished,we

willhavethefirstmajoritarianlibertarianpartyinAmericanpoliticalhistory.Itcertainlyseemsworth
thinkingabout.
CRNLA:CouldyoutellusmoreaboutyourpoliticssuchashowyouevolvedfromKropotkin
toIlluminatus?
RAW:AfterPrincePeter,IreadTucker,whowasbeingreprintedbyMildredLoomisinajournalcalled,
ofallthings,BalancedLiving.(Ilaterbecameco-editorofthat,andchangedthenametoWayOut.)
AfterTucker,Ireadallthemajoranarchistsandthenbeganwritinganarchistessaysmyself.Isoon
discoveredthat,inadditiontothe99.8percentofthemoronswhomakeupanypoliticalmovement,
everyganghasitsownintellectualsdefendingit(witheveryvarietyofsophistrytheJesuitsever
devised.)Todefendanarchismmoreeffectively,IhadtoreadMarxandDouglasandGesellandH.
GeorgeandWilliamBuckleyJr.andsoweirder,onandonintothedepthsofideologicalmetaphysics
thegreatSerbonianbogwherearmieswholehavesunk,asBurke(thebestconservative)once
said.Suchomnidirectionalreading,alas,tendstoproduceacertaindegreeofagnosticism,butmy
basicaxiomshaveremainedthat(1)asystemwhichconsignedmetopovertyatbirthandNelson
GodawfulRockefellertoriches,isdemonstrablyinsane,and(2)Iwilldoanything,includinghighway
robberyandmurder,toavoidleavingmychildreninpoverty.Inthatsense,thepoliticalthinkerI
probablyagreewithmostisBernardShaw,whopresentedthatposition,withequalbluntness,inhis
MajorBarbara.Imightadd,tobeevenmoreoffensive,thatIregardmoralityandideologyasthe
chiefcauseofhumanmisery.IamevenmorecommittedtounmitigatedskepticismthanIamto
anarchismortolifeextension,spacemigrationorhighintelligence.Withdoubtallthingsare
possible.Doubtandcourage.
CRNLAYoureconomicviewsstillseemverymuchintheBenjaminTuckertradition
(especiallyonrentandinterest.)HaveyoureadanyoftheAustrianeconomists,suchas
VonMisesandRothbard?Whatdoyouthinkofthem?
RAW:Tuckeriscertainlyamajorinfluence.MyeconomicideasareablendofTucker,Spooner,Fuller,
Pound,HenryGeorge,Rothbard,Douglas,Korzybski,ProudhonandMarx.Ialwaystrytobeinclusive,
ratherthanexclusive.ReadtoseewhatIcanlearnfromeveryschool,ratherthancondemningany
ideainitsentirety.Everymanhastherighttohavehisideasexaminedoneatatime,asEzPound
oncewrote.Rothbardis,likeMarxandPound,abrilliantclosedmind:excellentforstimulationbut
anybodywhogetsdraggedintoaRothbardiandogmatictranceshouldtakeLSDandtrylookingat
theworldthroughanothergrid.VonMisesisanotherwhoisexcellentforstimulation,perniciousif
erectedintodogma.Byandlarge,theAustriansremindmeofaparablebyLauranceLabadie,in
whichacertaintribehasthecustomofallowinghigh-casteindividualstokicklow-casteindividualsin
thebuttwhenevertheypasstheminthestreet.Aphilosophicalschool,muchliketheAustrians,
naturallyarisestoproverationallythatthekickingisnotonlynecessarybutjust,inevitable,beautiful
andaltogetherglorious.Iftherewerebigprofitsincancer,theredundoubtedlybeanAustrianschool
ofmedicine,provingthatcarcinomaisgoodforus.
CRNLA:TuckerisoneofmyfavoritepeoplebutoneofhisviewswithwhichIcantagreeis
thatinafreesocietyinterestratesandrentwoulddisappear.IthinktheAustrianshave
advancedeconomicknowledgesufficientlysinceTuckersdaytoshowwhythesethingsexist
andhowtheywouldcomeabouteveninaneconomyconsistingtotallyoffreetrade.Your
reply?
RAW:Youcanproveanythingontheverballevel,justbeacceptingthenecessaryaxiomsatthe
beginning.Empirically,Idontthinktheycanproduceasinglecaseinhistorywhereafreepeople
electedlandlordstoownthelandthelandmonopolyalwaysstartswithconquest.Shotandshellare
thecoinsofpurchase,asHerbertSpencersaid.Exceptbyforceofarms,nobodyownstheearth,
anymorethanthemoon,theplanets,thestarsthemselves.WhendidGoddisinheritthemajorityof
humanity,andturnallspaceovertotheownershipoftheRockefellersandtheirfriends?Without
armedpowerthreateningus,whywouldanyonebutafoolcontinuetopaytheseconquistadoresthe
extortiontheydemand?And,eveniftheAustrianscouldconvincemethatrentislegitimate,Istill
wouldntvoluntarilypayittothepresentlandlordclasswhoremainreceiversofstolenproperty.I
wouldpayittothenearestIndiantribe.
Asforinterest,Imnotawareofanycaseinwhichthecreditmonopolyhasallowedafreecurrency
tocompetewiththem.Infact,everycaseIknowof(e.g.Wrglinthe1930s),endedwhenthe
CapitalistsusedthearmedmightoftheStatetostopthecompetition.Theonelaboratory
experimentinthisfield,byDonWerkheiseratCentralStateUniversityinOhio,confirmedTuckerand
refutedtheAustrians.Money,afterall,isanabstractartifact,likelanguagemerelysymbolizedby
thepaperorcoinorwhatever.Ifyoucanfullygraspitsabstractedness,especiallyinthecomputer
age,itbecomesquiteclearthatnogroupcanmonopolizethisabstraction,exceptthroughaseriesof
swindle.Theaverageprimatecannotdistinguishthesymbolfromthereferent,themapfromthe
territory,themenufromthemeal.Iftheusurershadbeenbolder,theymighthavemonopolized
languageaswellascurrency,andpeoplewouldbesayingwecantwritemorebooksbecausewe
donthaveenoughwords,thewaytheynowsaywecantbuildstarships,becausewedonthave
enoughmoney.AsBuckyFullersays,youmightaswellarguewecantbuildroadsbecausewelack
kilometers.
CRNLA:Ithinkourdifferencesinrentarebasicallyinland-rentyoudontseeanything
wrongifsomeonewantstorentoutpowertoolsandU-haultrailerstrue?Yourmain
argumentwithland-rentseemstobewiththelackoflegitimateowners.Imassuming
legitimate(i.e.non-conquistador)ownerswhenIspeakoflegitimaterent.Iftwopeople
wenttoMarsorthebottomoftheoceanandoneofthemspenthistimeclearingrocksand
fertilizingasectionoflandandtheotherspenthistimeassemblingatractor,andtheyreach
anagreementtoexchangetheuseofthelandforoneseasonfortheuseofthetractorfor
oneseasonhasanyonebeenharmedorexploitedorextorted?Shouldsomethirdparty
comeontothesceneandsay,Heystopthat,yourecommittingrent?
RAW:Land-rent,orground-rent,isthemostillegitimateaspectoftherentcon,ofcourse,andthe
maintargetofTuckerscriticisms.Thewholeconceptofanyrent,however,appearssomewhat
dubioustome,sinceitseemstopresupposetheaccumulationofpropertyinafewaristocratic
heaps,attheexpenseofagreatdealofdemocraticbaregroundinbetween,asEzraHeywoodsaid.
(Heywoodswritingsonthissubject,andotheraspectsoflibertarianism,areatleastasimportantas
TuckersandSpooners.)Peoplerent,chiefly,whentheycannotaffordtopurchaseoutrightwhen
ground-rent,interestandotherinequalitieshaveralreadycreatedamaster-classofaristocratownersandaservileclassofpeasantsorproles.Iwouldexpecttoseerentwitherawayasthe
democratizationofcreditabolishespoverty.

Ifailtoseehowyourhypotheticallegitimate(i.e.non-conquistador)ownerswouldachieve
ownership.(Ialsodontseethebearingofsuchhypothetical,orfictitious,casesontherealissues
oftherealworld,whereallthelandlordsareconquistadors,orarereceiversofstolenpropertyfrom
theoriginalconquistadors,butthatisanotherquestion.)
Ownership,intherealworld,isasocialagreement,asocialfictionalmost,andisproducedonlyby
forceorbyfraudorbycontract.Inpractice,landownershipisproducedonlybyforceorfraud.
Thismaysoundpolemic,butitisliterallytrue.TheHenryGeorgeSchoolshaveabook,LandTitle
Origins:ATaleofForceandFraud,inwhichyoucanlookup,whereveryouliveintheUnitedStates,
exactlytheactsofforceandfraud(murderandrobbery)bywhichlandownershipwastransferred
fromtheIndiantribestothecurrentreceiversofthestolenproperty.Now,thethirdalternative,
contract,hasneverbeentried,tothebestofmyknowledge.TheonlylandcontractswhichI,orany
otherTuckeritesorSternerites,wouldsigninfreedom,withoutforcebeingusedagainstus,wouldbe
toourowninterest,nottotheinterestofthelandlords.Inotherwords,wesimplywouldnotsigna
contractgivingupownershipofthisplanet,oranyother,toasmallgroupoftheElitewhoclaimthey
havesomebettertitletoownershipthantherestofushave.Ifyouwouldsignsuchacontract,I
canonlyhintgentlythatyouaremoreeasilydefraudedthanweare.
Thebarterarrangementinyourparadigmhasnothingtodowithperpetualtribute,whichisthe
essenceofrentindeed,thefactordistinguishingbarterfromrent.
Ofcourse,sinceAustrianideasexistasfactorsinhumanbehavior,Iwilladmitthatsomepeople,
hoodwinkedbythoseideas,willcontinuetopayrenteveninfreedom,forawhileatleast.ButIthink
that,afteratime,observingthattheirTuckeriteneighborsarenotsubmittingtothisimposture,they
wouldcometotheirsensesandceasepayingtributetotheself-electedownersoflimitlessspace,
onthisandotherplanets,andininterplanetarycommunities.
Ofcourse,Imyselfwouldnotpayrentonedaybeyondthepointatwhichthepolice(hiredguns,on
guardtoseethatpropertyremainsstolenasEmmaGoldmansaid)areathandtocollectitvia
argumentperbluntinstrument.
CRNLA:Regardinginterest:againIassumeatotallyfreemarket,wheretherearenolegal
tenderlawsandanyoneisfreetomint,mine,printorgrowanythingthattheyfeelthe
marketwillacceptformoney.Ithinkthatundertheseconditionstheinterestratewouldbe
dramaticallylowerthanitpresentlyisbutthatitwouldnottendtowardzero.Money
generallyperformsatleastthreeinterrelatedfunctions:(1)indirectexchangemedia,(2)
providesacommonmeasuringscale,(3)storeswealth.Inthefirsttwomoneyisdefinitely
anabstractartifactacashlesssocietycouldexistmerelyusingbookkeepingentries.
Butwhenitsusedtostorewealthitcausestroubleasanabstractbank-runsandthe
like.Wealthisntanabstract.Itmaybesubjectivelyappraised,butitactuallyexists.WhenA
wantstouseBswealthforaperiodoftime,Bisgenerallycompensatedforhislossofitsuse
forthatperiodbyAinterest.Amongcorporations(admittedly,alegalfiction)theissuingof
Tucker-money,(i.e.,stock)isafairlyunfetteredmeansofobtainingcreditbutthe
peoplewhogiveittothemstillexpectareturnandthecorporationsstillexpecttopayit.Id
beinterestedinseeingtheCentralStateexperiment.Usuallybecauseofthemultiplicityof
ever-changingfactorsinvolvedinthemarket,itsdifficultifnotimpossibletoeverprove
anythingempirically.
RAW:Ofcourse,mypositionisbasedonthedenialthatmoneydoesstorewealth.Ithinkitsa
semantichallucination,theverbalequivalentofanopticalillusion,tospeakatallofmoneycontaining
orstoringwealth.Suchthinkingshouldhavegoneoutwithphlogistontheory.Thesymbolisnotthe
referentthemapisnottheterritory.Moneysymbolizeswealth,aswordssymbolizethings,and
thatsall.Thedelusionsthatmoneycontainswealthisthemechanismbywhichthecreditmonopoly
hofstudy.asgainedastrangleholdontheentireeconomy.AsColonelGreenepointedoutinMutual
Banking,allthemoneycoulddisappeartomorrowmorningandthewealthoftheplanetwouldremain
thesame.However,ifthewealthdisappearedifsquinksfromthePinkDimensiondraggeditoffto
null-spaceorsomethingthemoneywouldbeworthnothing.Youdontneedtoplowthroughthe
dialectsofthedebatebetweentheAustriansandthefreecreditpeoplelikeTuckerandGeselltosee
thisanytextbookofsemanticswillmakeitclearinafewhoursofstudy.Wealthisnatures
abundance,freelygiven,plustheexponentialadvanceoftechnologyviahumanintelligence,andas
KorzybskiandFullerdemonstrate,thiscanonlyincreaseananacceleratingrate.Moneyisjustthe
ticketsorsymbolstoarrangeforthedistributioneitherequitably,inafreemoneysystem,or
inequitably,asunderthetyrannyofthepresentmoney-cartel.Asyourealize,acashlesssociety
couldexistmerelybykeepingbookkeepingentriesorcomputertapes.Moneyisaprimitiveformof
suchcomputertapes,servingafeedbackfunction.Ifwearenottoreplacethepresentbanking
oligopolywithaprogrammersoligopoly,inwhichtheinterestwillbepaidtocomputertechnicians,we
mustrealizethatthisisallamatterofabstractsymbolismthatitexistsbysocialagreementand
nobodyownsit,anymorethanWebsterownsthelanguage.Whyisit,incidentally,thattheAustrians
dontfollowtheirlogictoitsnaturalconclusionanddemandthatwepayinteresttothedictionary
publisherseverytimewespeakorwrite?
YouhavetowatchpeopleplayingMonopoly,andseethembegintoidentifythepapermarkerswith
realvalue,tounderstandhowthemasshypnosisofCapitalismworks.Fortunately,theHead
Revolutionisstillproceedingandmoreandmorepeoplearewakinguptothedifferencebetweenour
economicgame-rulesandtherealexistentialsituationofhumanity.
DonWerkheisermightsellyouaXeroxofhisthesisontheCentralStateexperimentifyouwriteto
himc/oGeneralDelivery,Ponca,Arkansas.SimilarexperimentsarerecountedinJosiahWarrensTrue
Civilization,involvingfourcommunesin19thCenturyAmerica.Letmeconcludethisanswerby
emphasizingthatIdonotblamethemoney-monopologistsforanyoftheirhoardingbehavior.Iam
sureyouwillfindsimilarabsurditiesintheprimitivestagesofanthropoidcivilizationsonmostplanets
ofG-typestars.Mammalianpatternspersistinmanyotheraspectsofoursociety,especiallyin
organizedreligions.
Inmyexperience,Imightadd,virtuallyalladherentsoftheAustrianeconomictheoriesare
academicswhohaveneverhadanydealingswithCapitalistcorporations.TherosyviewtheAustrians
haveofthesematters,Ithink,wouldcollapseintwoweeksiftheyhadtodealwiththedamned
corporatepiratesasanordinaryworkerdoes.WhenJoycewentintobusinessbriefly,hetoldItalo
Svevoafterawhile,Youknow,Ithinkmypartnersarecheatingme.Svevoanswered,Youonly
thinkyourpartnersarecheatingyou!Joyce,youareanartist!NixonisthetypicalCapitalist

mentality,entirelyidenticalinallaspectswitheverybusinessmanIhaveeverencounteredhisonly
realdistinctionisthathegotcaught.Ofcourse,Imnotcomplainingpartofthehumoroflivingon
thisbackwardplanetislisteningtothehominidsrationalizetheirpredations.
CRNLA:IdontthinkthattheAustrianshaveaparticularlyrosyviewofbusiness.Iknowa
lotofthem(MisesandRothbardfortwo)consideratotalseparationoftheeconomyandthe
governmenttobethebestmeansofkeepingtheseclownsfrombecomingtoopowerful.Most
consideratotallyfreemarkettobetheultimateinconsumerismnotcapitalism(at
leastasitscometobeknown.)
RAW:Well,thereiscertainlyakinshipbetweentheAustriansandmyselfonthelevelofultimate
goals.ImerelyfeelthattheirviewsofCapitalism-as-practised-in-the-past-and-presentcouldonly
beheldbycollegeprofessors.Aftermorethan20yearsofworkingforthecorporationsinevery
positionfromofficeboytomiddleexecutive,Ihavenotbeenshockedorsurprisedintheslightestby
theWatergateorpost-Watergatescandals.
Austriansbelievewhattheywrite,theymustbesomewhatabashed,Ishouldthink.Forinstance,
DavidFriedmanhaspublishedviewsaboutthecorporateelitethatwouldbeflatteringifappliedto
Jesusandhisangels.However,thisisturningintoadiatribeagainstthegroupIfindleastobnoxious
inthewholepolitico-economicspectrum(becauseyoukeepaskingmequestionsthatharponmy
differenceswiththem.)Theorthodoxconservativesandliberals,nottomentionnazisandmarxists,
arereallypernicious,andtheAustrianlibertariansarebasicallyokay.
CRNLA:RegardingourRentInterestdiscussion:Ithinkthatourdifferencesregardingmoney
stemfromadifferenceindefinitions.Iwouldincludewealththatisusedincertainways
undertheheadingmoney,whileyoulimitthedefinitiontojustitstransactionalfunctions.
OK,aslongasweknowwhereweare.Oncewestartdealingwiththiswealth-moneyas
wealth(andforgetthewordmoney),theproblemofinterestbecomesjustaspecialcase
ofrent.Whichreallybringsusbacktopropertyandownership.Iveneverattemptedtotie
theconceptofownershiptothemetaphysicalframeworkoftheuniverse.Irealizethatits
merelyahumaninventionmuchlikelanguage(whichisnottosaythatotherinhabitantsof
theplanetdontuseitalso)thatspurposeistomaketheallocationofresourcesgoas
smoothlyandefficientlyandwiththeleastamountofhead-crackingaspossible.Liketheuse
oflanguage,theuseoftheconceptofpropertydoesntnecessarilyhavetobeenforced.
Whenpeoplediscoverittheyuseitbecauseitsintheirlong-rangeself-interesttodoso.
(Thisisnottosaythatparticularinstancesdontrequireenforcementjustthattheconcept
isusuallyretainedwithoutit.)Thewholesystemofownership/divisionoflabor/rent
transactionsetc.ismerelydesignedtoallocateresourcessothattheymaximizethevector
sumofeveryonessatisfactionormoreaccurately,thatthissystemhasthepotentialto
maximize.Youdonthavetouseit.Withoutthissystemsomealternativemethodmustbe
foundtodeterminewhogetstheuseofwhat.LeGuinfacedthisprobleminTheDispossessed.
Shechosetodoitcollectively.Ultimately,thisresultsinsomesystemofvotingor
representativesorsyndicswhichbearstrikingresemblancetogovernments(inadditionto
beingveryinefficient.)Sotheso-calledanarchyinTheDispossessedisactuallya
widespreadproliferationofgovernmentsandpoverty.Ifthedeterminationoftheuseof
resourcesisplacedinthehandsoftheindividualwhomakestheresourcesuseful(i.e.,
grows,finds,fertilizes,buildson,digsup,etc.)thisprovideshimwithagooddealof
independencefromtherestoftheherd.Seemslikeanaturalforanyanarchisticsociety.This
isbasicallytheideabehindmyconceptofownership.Couldyougiveasummaryofwhatyou
considertobeagoodmethodofallocatingresourcesandanyconceptssimilartoownership
thatmightbecontainedtherein?
RAW:Sinceownershipisasocialfiction,itshouldobviouslybefluidandsensitivetodecentralized
feedback,tomatchtheevolvingneedsofthepersonsinvolvedinwhateversocialgameisbeing
played.Inotherwords,Idonotproposeonerightwayofdoingitthathastobefound
pragmaticallyineachnewsituation.Thetraditionalfeudal-Capitalistsysteminwhichonehereditary
groupofGreatPiratesownseverythingisnotacceptabletome,andobviouslywouldnotbe
acceptabletoanybandofStirneriteegoistsand,ofcourse,thealtruisticformsofsocialismand
communismareequallyunacceptabletome,andIpredicttheywouldbeequallyunacceptabletoa
bandofself-ownersintheStirnite,TuckerorCrowleysense.Whatwouldemergeinsucha
rationalistic-egoisticcontextwould,inageneralway,probablyfollowtheguidelinessuggestedby
Stirner,Spooner,ProudhonandTuckerexceptthatthiswouldonlybeinageneralway,asallof
thosewritersrealized.Thespecificindividualsineachsituationwoulddefinetheirowndemands
accordingtothespecificsituationalways.Theonlycontractsthatwouldbeacceptabletothem,as
Tuckerindicated,wouldbethosethatrequirenoenforcementthatis,thosethataresoobviously
intheenlightenedself-interestofeachmemberthattheirwordingwouldbeacceptedwiththe
satisfactionthescientificworldfeelswhenahardquestionisfinallyanswered.Iftheproposed
contractdidnothavethatself-evidentfeelingcharacteraboutitifitdidntprovokethegeneral
feeling,Thisistheanswertoourdisagreementsitwouldnotbeaccepted.Ispeakwithsome
experiencehere,beingpartofanoccultorderwhodoindeedgovernthemselvesthatway.Myonly
generalrulesareCrowleysDowhatthouwiltshallbethewholeofthelawandLearysThree
CommandmentsfortheNeurologicalAge,towit:Thoushaltnotaltertheconsciousnessofthy
neighbor,2.Thoushaltnotpreventthyneighborfromalteringhisorherownconsciousness,3.Thou
shaltmakenomorecommandments.Theso-calledresourcesproblemisaterracentricdelusion.
TheUniverseisaBigMother.
CRNLA:Toreturntolifeextension,spacemigrationandhigherintelligence,Iworryaboutthe
potentialofallthatbeingscrewedupbythepoliticians.Howdoyoufeelaboutthat?
RAW:Iftheoncomingmutationtointerstellarimmortalityisscrewedupbythepoliticians(orthe
corporations),itwillbebecausethoseofuswhoseetheopportunitiesinmodernsciencearenot
adroitenoughtooutmaneuvertheforcesofinertia,stupidityandgreed.Well,ifwerenotintelligent
enoughtoovercomesuchobstacles,thenwedontdeservetocarryoffthemutationatthisstageof
evolution.Thethingtodo,inthatcase,istositdownandhaveagoodTaoisticlaughatourown
presumption.Meanwhile,untilthegameisover,Ihappentothinkwerewinning.Theothersideis
very,verystupid.Concretely,IsaythatifwehavecolonizationofL5by1990,andlongevityat
aboutthesametime,Ithinkthegameiswonsomehumanseedwillbecomecosmicandimmortal.
RobertPhedra,M.D.,hasalreadypredictedlifeextensionto1,000years.
CRNLA:AthousandyearsisOKforastart,butitsnotenough.Wouldyousettlefor
indefinitelifeextensionifitmeanstransferringyourthoughtstoasyntheticstorage

system?
RAW:Idconsiderit,buttemperamentallyIdratherblastoffforthestarswhenlifespanreaches
about400years.Ithinkina400yearcruisearoundthegalaxywedcontactraceswhohave
immortalityalreadyandwemightarrangeatradeforthetechnologyofit.(Maybetheydwantan
unexpurgatedIlluminatus.Imforspace,actually,whetherthereareimmortalsoutthereornot.Aside
fromthatbias,Idsupportlifeextensionbywhatevermeans,fromcryonicsuspensiontocyborgism
tocodingourselvesintoourcomputersorwhatever.Contrarytothelast2,500yearsofphilosophy
amongthedomesticatedandneuroticcarnivorespeciesweadorn,thereisnothingnobleorbeautiful
ordignifiedaboutdying.Likepoverty,itisugly,nasty,brutalandprimitive.Thefunctionof
intelligenceistodobetterthanthosemammaliannorms.
CRNLA:Couldyougiveusabibliographyoneverythingyouvehadpublishedandwho
publisheditandifitsstillinprint?
RAW:Hell,no.Ivegotabout1,000articlesinprintandIcantrememberwheremostofthemwere
printedanddontreallycareto.ThethingsImwillingtostandby,inadditiontoIlluminatus,arethe
essaysbeingcollectedinPrometheusRising:SexandDrugs,aPlayboyPresspaperbackmypieceon
TheFutureinSexinOui,November1975thearticleonbrainwashingbyLearyandmeinOuifor
June1976,(whichIespeciallycommendtothosewhothoughttheconsciousness-warps,egofissions,reality-mutationsandsex-rolerouletteinIlluminatuswerefantasy)Scientificand
ExperimentalMagicinGnostica,January1975andtwopiecesonCarylChessmanandtheMarquis
deSadeinTheRealist,datesunknown.MostofwhatIwrotebeforelastweekboresme.
CRNLA:Whatkindofstuffwasthe500pagesthatgoteditedoutofIlluminatus?
RAW:Itwassacrilegious,blasphemous,obscene,subversive,funny,surrealistic,trippyandmuchlike
whatdidgetpublished.Theportionofhardanarchistpropagandainwhatgotcutisperhaps
somewhatgreaterthaninwhatgotprinted,butIdonotattributethattoagovernmentconspiracy.
Editorsalwaysamputatethebrainfirstandpreserveagood-lookingcorpse.Iknewthat,andtold
Sheatheyddoit,soweputinsodamnedmuchanarchistmaterialthatalotwouldbeleftevenafter
theceremonialcastration.
CRNLA:IsBobSheaahard-corelibertarian?
RAW:Moreorless.IreallydontwanttocategorizeShea,whocancertainlyspeak(eloquently)for
himself.
CRNLA:WhowrotetheAtlasShruggedparodyinIlluminatus?Whowrotetheappendices?
RAW:IwrotetheTelemachusSneezedsectionwhichisnotjustanotherkickatpooroldRand,but
alsoaself-parodyofIlluminatus,andofMobyDick,andofmyarcaneJoyceanuseofMobyDick
parallelsinIlluminatus.Unfortunately,thatsectionwasparticularlymauledandtruncatedbythe
editors.Originally,itwastrans-Melvilliansatireonallideologyandmorality,includingmyownlapses
intoethicalthinking.IalsowrotetheAppendicesonvariousoccasionswhenverystonedasaparody
onmystyleinmymoreacademicessays.
CRNLA:WhatwasHagbarddoinginagovernmentprintingoffice?
RAW:HagbardwasvisitingtheDiscordianagentswhohaveinfiltratedthegovernmentandsneaked
parodiesintothebureaucraticforms:SMI2LE=infinity.(SpaceMigrationplusIntelligenceIncrease
plusLifeExtension=cosmicconsciousness.
CRNLA:Anywordonhowsalesaredoing?
RAW:Fine.Imightnothavetotakeuphighwayrobberyandmurdertogetrichafterall.
CRNLA:Thatsgood.WhoisTarantellaSerpentineandwhyissheworkingforLimit
newsletter?
RAW:TheDiscordianconspiracyhasbeenradicallydecentralizedfromthebeginning,inaccordance
withMalaclypsetheYoungersprinciplethatWeDiscordiansmuststickapart.ThelastIheard,
Tarantellawasafictionalcharacter,workinginaSanFranciscomassageparlor(inmyothernovel,
TheSexMagicians.)Itdoesntsurprisethatshehasalifeofherown,outsidemyimagination.
Illuminatusisonlypartofatotalartwork,orhappeningknownasOperationMindfuck.Agroupof
NewYorkDiscordians,forinstance,celebratedthe200thanniversaryoftheIlluminatiwithapublic
readingofPrincipiaDiscordia(whichalsoexists)outsidetheUNbuildingonMay1thisyear.Alodge
ofCrowleyanmagiciansinTexashasofficiallychangedtheirnamefromtheTempleoftheHiddenGod
totheAncientIlluminatedGoodOldBoysofHouston.EmperorNortonposters,endorsedbythe
Illuminati,areforsalethroughSolidarityBooksinChicago.EverythingtheBircherseverclaimedabout
theIlluminatiisgraduallycomingtrue.
CRNLA:Doyoufeelfrustrationlivingintherealworld?AfterreadingIlluminatusitsa
downertogetbacktorealityevenmyusualescapistliteratureisdepressing.Howdoyou
feelaboutthat?
RAW:Everynervoussystemcreatesitsownreality,minutebyminuteor,inthelanguageofDon
JuanMatus,weliveinsideabubbleofneuralabstractionswhichweidentifywithreality.In
metaprogrammingsystemslikeTibetanTantra,Crowleyanity,orLearysExo-Psychology,youcan
makethisneurologicalfactintoconsciousexperience,andyouwillneverbeboredordepressed
again.Justreadingthescientificevidencethatthisistrue,insocialpsychologyorgeneralsemantics
orneurologyorwhatever,willnotliberateyouoneneedsactualre-training,inTantraorCrowleyor
Leary,toexperiencewhatImtalkingabouthere.Itisagreatprivilegetobeconsciousinthis
universe.Thosewhounderstand,shinelikestars.
CRNLA:Iwasjustspeakinginrelativeterms.Actually,Imquiteexcitedaboutrealityits
probablymyfavoritething.Iwasjustwonderingifsometimesallthefnordstendtogetyoua
littlepissed-off.
RAW:Never.AsTimLearysays,theuniverseisanintelligencetest.Thethingsthathindermeare
opportunitiestolearnmoreanddevelopfurther.Thatswhereamoralthinkingisdistinctlysuperiorto
moralthinking.Ifyourecognizethatyourlatestproblemistotallywithoutmoralsignificancefor
instance,youhaveadiseasewhichyoucant,bythewildeststretchofimagination,blameon

anybodythenitsjustaquestionofcopingwiththesituationasbestyoucan.Whenyourealize
thatpeoplearejustasautomatedasbacteriaorwildanimals,thenyoudealwithhostilehumansthe
samewayyoudealwithinfectionsorpredatorsrationally,withoutclaimingyourerightortheyre
wrong.ThenyoubegintounderstandCrowleysgreatLawofThelema(DoWhatThouWilt)and
yourefree,reallyfree,insteadofbeinganactorinasoapoperawrittenbythesuperstitious
shamanswhocreatedmorality30,000yearsago.Youarealsofreeofanger,hatredandresentment,
whicharegreatburdenstodrop.Theylivehappiest,myfriend,whohaveunderstoodandforgiven
all.
CRNLA:Arethererealpeople,aliveorinhistory,whoresembleanyofyourcharacters
(Hagbardinparticular)?
RAW:Absolutely.TherearehundredsofthousandsofHagbardsaround,andallthesleep-walkersare
potentialHagbards.Theyonlyneedtobeshakenabitandawakened.AsJesussaid,Yeareallgods,
yeareallchildrenoftheMostHigh.
CRNLA:Haveyoueverwalkedintosomepublicplacelikeashoppingcenterandsaidto
yourselfsomethinglike,Christ,itssolidearthlings!Youdthinktheredbeatleastacouple
ofaliensstrollingaroundlookingattheshops,etc.?
RAW:Curiously,IbelongtoalooseassociationofskepticalContacteespeoplewhohavehada
Contactexperiencebutaretooskepticaltotakeitliterally.Thereareoverahundredofusinthe
U.S.alone,mostscientists,andIthinkthatthegradualsurfacingofthisstorywillbeoneofthe
majorculturalshocksofourtime.Rightnow,MartinGardnerhasalreadyregisteredhisviewpointand
ItrustthatMITwillhavethecourtesytoprintDr.Sarfattisrebuttal.Imustaddthatmostofuswho
areinvolvedinthishavegrownextremelydoubtfulaboutthenow-conventionalextraterrestrial
explanationandaretryingoutvariousexplanatorymodelsthatareevenmoremind-blowing.Those
whoareinterestedinthissubjectmightlookupmyarticle,TheStarseedSignals,inGnosticafor
June1975,andDr.JacquesValleesbook,TheInvisibleCollege.AsthedivineMullahNasruddinsaid,
Ifyouhaventseenmebefore,howdoyouknowitisme?
CRNLA:Whatareyourplansforfuturebooks?
RAW:PrometheusRisingwillbepublishedbyLlewellynnextyear.Itsacollectionofmyessayson
spaceageoccultismandpost-LSDconsciousness.IhopeitwillknockholesintheChristianrevival,
theHindurevival,theBuddhistrevivalandalltheotherneolithicmetaphysicsgoingaroundthese
days.Abookonimmortalityresearch,possiblyentitledDeathShallHaveNoDominion,isgoingaround
NewYorkseekingapublisher.AbookonDr.TimothyLeary,andanewnovelcalledSchrdingersCat,
aboutquantumparadoxesandparapsychology,arealsointheworks.LearyandIareworkingona
collaborativeventurecalledTheGameofLifewhichstartedoutasonevolumeandbecamethree.It
modestlyattemptstodeducethenextfourbillionyearsofevolutionfromthedataofLearysbrainchangeresearch.
CRNLA:WhodidyouknowintheoldBerkeleycrowdsuchasDannyRosenthal,Sharon
Presley,TomMcGivern?HowaboutKerryThornley?
RAW:IneverheardofanyofthosepeopleexceptKerryThornleyandSharonPresley.Kerryisoneof
theco-creatorsofDiscordianatheology,whichiswhyvolumeoneofIlluminatusisco-dedicatedto
him.SharonisafinepersonwhoIveonlymettwicebutlikedvastly.Imsureallthoseothersare
excellentpeople,too,butIvenevermetthem.
CRNLA:TheeditorofNewLibertarianWeekly,SEK3,wouldlikeyoutowriteforthem...
wereahellofalotbetterthanSRAFandcanevenpayatokenamount,andcanrunstuffhe
cantgetpastPlayboyandOui.
RAW:Idbedelighted.
CRNLA:Doyouhaveanyconcludingthoughtsforourreaders?
RAW:Absolutelynot.AsKorzybskisaid,nothingisconclusive,andeverysentenceshouldendwithan
etcetera.OrperhapsWoodyAllensaiditbetter:NotonlyistherenoGod,butyoucantevengeta
plumberonweekends.Theanswertothat,ofcourse,istobecomeyourowngodandyourown
plumber.ThatmaybethefundamentalsecretoftheIlluminati.

IntheRAW
InanexclusiveinterviewwithGoodTimes,authorandconspiracytheoristRobertAntonWilsonreflects
onaworldgonemad
ByCharlesO'Neill
DespitetheinternetrumorsthathewasassassinatedbytheCIAin1994,RobertAntonWilson,themanTimothy
Learyoncecalled"oneofthemostimportantscientificphilosophers"ofthe20thcentury,isaliveandwelland
remainsaninfluentialvoiceintheAmericancounter-culture.OnSeptember18,2002,hewasthefirstpatientto
receivemedicalmarijuanafrommembersoftheSantaCruzCityCouncil.
AformerAssociateEditorofPlayboy,WilsonisperhapsbestknownfortheclassicScience-Fictionopus,
Illuminatus!,co-authoredwithRobertShea,in1975.Hissubsequenttrilogy,Schroedinger'sCat,washailedbyNew
Scientistmagazineas"themostscientificofallsciencefictionnovels."Thescopeofhisworkrangesfromsci-fi
andhistoricalfictiontoeruditeandwittycommentariesonpsychology,theparanormalandquantumphysics.
Inhislatestwork,TSOG:TheThingThatAteTheConstitution,Wilsontakesthereaderonawildridefromthe
optimisticemancipationofAmsterdamtotheNazi-influencedinnerworkingsoftheU.S.Government.Itissocial
satireandpoliticalrevelationallinone-exposingthehypocrisiesoffaith-basedorganizationsandrevealingwhy
HannibalLecterwouldmakeabetterpresidentthenDubya.Heissubjectofthedocumentaryfilm,MaybeLogic:
TheLivesandIdeasofRobertAntonWilson(www.maybelogic.com).
WilsonrecentlysatdownwithGoodTimesand,fromhisapartmentoverlookingtheMontereyBay,sharedhis
impressionsofthecurrentpoliticalsituationinAmericaandaroundtheworld.
GoodTimes:WhatisyouropinionofGeorgeW.Bush?
RobertAntonWilson:IlikeBushalot.Hegivesmeadeepsenseofself-satisfaction.Despiteallmysuspicions,I
amnotthedumbestschmuckontheplanetafterall.That'snicetoknow.Heconstantlyremindsmeofthat.Bush
wasC-studentinbothhighschoolandcollege.Hisformerspeechwriterdescribedhimasincuriousand
uninformed.Thatisexactlytheidealpresidentforthistimeinhistory.MostofthepublicismadeupofC-students
whoareincuriousanduninformed.WhatBushsaysmakessensetothembecausetheydon'tknowanymoreabout
theworldthenhedoes.Nowonderheissopopular.Thedumberyouareandthedumberyouappear,themore
popularyouwillbewiththepublic.
GT:Howdoyoufeelaboutthisadministration'soppositiontocloning?
RAW:TheywanttobancloningwhichwillputtheUnitedStates,inthelifesciences,decadesbehindtherestof
theworld.Theydon'tmindthatwearebehindinthelifesciences,whichprimarilydealswiththepreservationof
life,aslongasweareaheadinthedeathsciences,whichishowtodelivermoreandmoreexplosivepowerover
longerandlongerdistancesinshorterandshortertimestokillmoreandmorepeople.AslongastheUnited
Statesstaysaheadinthedeathsciencesthegovernmentdoesn'tmindhowfarbehindwefallinthelifesciences.
Theyaregoingtobancloningandtheywon'tletyouusethemedicineyourdoctorbelievesin.Yourdoctorhasno
morerightsthenyoudonow.
GT:WhatishappeninginIraqrightnow?
RAW:Ithastodowiththelifesciencesvs.thedeathsciences.Theydon'twantanyonetohaveanyweaponsof
massdestructionexceptgovernmentstheyhaveundertheirowncontrol,likeIsrael.Israelgets3billiondollarsa
yearfromtheUnitedStatestokillArabs.Theydon'twanttheArabstogetanymoneytofightbackbecauseIsrael
istheUnitedStatescolonyintheMid-East.Aslongastheyhaveaccesstoatomicweaponsandtheothersdon't
thentheothersareallgoingtobeterrorized.TheUnitedStatesdoesn'thavetodoitsownfightingexceptwhen
somebodygetsespeciallyuppiditylikeSaddamHussein.Besides,thatsonofabitchissittingonouroil.
GT:DoyoubelievethereisalinkbetweenthealQaedaandIraq?
RAW:LookatCNNandMSNBCoranyofthecorporatemedia,youcanseethewomeninIraqgoingaroundwith
theirbarefaceshangingout.DoyouthinkOsamabinLadenapprovesofthat?Theyareaverywesternizedcountry.
TheyhavenoconnectionwithalQuadaatall.TheyarebothonoppositepolesintheMoslemworld.Allthese
attemptstolinkthemtoalQuadaareliketryingtolinkthePopetoJerryFalwell.Theyareinthesamegeneral
racketbuttheydisagreewitheachotheroneverypointofdoctrine.ThereisnorealconnectionbetweenIraqand
alQuada.Thatisjustthesmokescreentheyareputtingup.It'stheoil.Everythingisoiluntiltheoilrunsoutand
thentheywillfindsomethingelsetofightover.
GT:WhatareyourthoughtsonOsamabinLaden?

RAW:IfhehatedfreedomhewouldhavebombedsomeplacelikeAmsterdam,wheretheyhaverealfreedom.He
wouldn'thavebombedacountrylikethisonethatisrunbyaTsaristOccupationGovernment.Hedoesn'thateus
forourfreedom.HehatestheWestbecausetheWestisattackingtheArabworldallthetime.
GT:WhatdoyouthinkoftheWaronTerror?

RAW:Itshouldbecalledthe"WaronSomeTerrorists,"unlessheplanstobombtheCIAheadquartersinLangly,
VA.IfBushwasseriousaboutmakingawaronterrorists,thatisthefirstplacehewouldbombbecausetheyhave
beentheworstterroristsinthelast50years.
GT:HowmuchofwhatweseeofGeorgeW.BushistherealGeorgeW.Bush?
RAW:Whentheteleprompterbreaksdownandhehastoad-lib,that'swhenweseetherealGeorgeW.Bush.
Whentheteleprompterbreaksdownthat'swhenhecomesupwiththosewonderfulBushismslike"theymisunderestimatedme,"or"itwouldbeahellofaloteasierifthiswereadictatorshipandIwasthedictator."
Otherwiseheisjustreadingwhat'swrittenbyprofessionalliarsthatknowhowtostacktheliesinawaytofoola
populationofC-students.ThewholesecretofhowtorunagovernmentwasreveledbyJ.R.BobDobbs(founderof
theChurchoftheSubGenius)whosaid,"Youknowhowdumbtheaverageguyis?Well,mathematically,by
definition,halfofthemareeverdumberthanthat."
GT:WhyisthereadifferenceinthewayswearedealingwithNorthKorea?
RAW:NorthKoreathreatenstocatchupwithusinthedeathsciencessoweareabitafraidofNorthKorea.Ifwe
startheavingnuclearbombsatthem,theymaystartheavingnuclearbombsback.Thereasontheykeeptalking
aboutSaddamHesseinposingathreatisbecausehemighthaveaccesstonuclearweaponsandwewanttoget
himbeforehegetsthenuclearweaponsbecauseoncehegetsthenuclearweapons,wewillhavetotreathimwith
diplomacy,likeNorthKorea.Thatisveryfrighteningforthisadministrationbecausediplomacyrequirestheability
tothinkandtheabilitytonegotiateandseetheotherguy'splayingfield.AllthisiscompletelyforeigntoDubya
andhisterminalgang.Theyunderstandwar.Theydon'tunderstanddiplomacy.NorthKoreafrightensthemmuch
morethanIraq.
GT:WhatisyouropinionofBush'sproposedmedicalcoverageforseniors?
RAW:Iamaseniorcitizen,whichmeansIamanoldfart.Bushisofferingusachoicebetweenstayingon
MedicarewithnoprescriptiondrugcoverageorjoininganHMOandgettingprescriptiondrugcoverage,which
meanstheyaregoingtoscrewuseverywaytheycan.EverybodyIknowinmyagegroupthathaseverjoinedan
HMOhasquititbecauseitdoesn'tdoadamnthing.Theytakeyourmoneyandtheydon'tgiveyouanythingin
return.NobodywantstobelongtoanHMO.NowheistryingtoforceusintotheHMO'sbyofferingfreeprescription
drugs,anditwillturnoutthat'sanotherfraud,too,I'msure.TheyareworsebanditsthentheJesseJamesGang.
TheonlydifferenceIcanseebetweentheHMO'sandtheJamesGangisthattheJamesGangrodehorses.
GT:Whatisyourfeelingaboutthisadministration'sfavortowardsfaith-basedorganizations?
RAW:Bushwantstoputhismoneyintofaith-basedorganizations.Youknowwhatfaithmeans?HuckleberryFinn
explaineditatthebeginningofthatgreatnovel:Faithisbelievingwhatyouknowain'tso.ThatiswhatBush's
wholecareerandthewholeBushcrimefamilycareerisbasedon:gettingpeopletohavefaithinwhattheyknow
ain'tso-likehisprescriptiondrugplan.
GT:Concerningthebattlebetweenthestatesandthefedsovermedicalmarijuana?
RAW:The10thAmendmentsaysveryclearlythatpowersnotdelegatedtotheUnitedStatesbytheConstitution
arereservedtothestatesandthepeople.Itseemsveryclearthat55percentofthevotersinCaliforniavotedto
letmehavemarijuanaformylegpainsandthestateagreed,butthentheAttorneyGeneraloftheUnitedStates
said,Wellthatdoesntcount.Stateshavenorights.Thepeoplehavenorights.
GT:AIDStreatmentinAfrica?
RAW:AlltheAIDSreliefforAfricameans,tome,isthattheyaregoingtosellthemmoredrugsfromthebigdrug
companies,someofwhichtheBushfamilyhasmajorinterestsin.
GT:Whatisyouropinionoftheanti-warmovement?
RAW:Iamreallyhappytoseetheextentoftheprotestevenbeforethiswarhasstarted.Thelastprotestin
Washington(onJan.18,2003)wasbiggerthanthebiggestanti-Vietnamprotest.Sotheprotesthasstarted
beforethewarandthatgivesmesomehope.
GT:AretheprotestshavinganyinfluenceeonMiddleAmerica?
RAW:TheaveragepeopleinMiddleAmerica,despiteallthesarcasticthingsIhavejustsaidaboutthem,arent
quiteasdumbasIusuallythinkbecausetherehavebeenmoreobjectionstothiswarthananywarinmylifetime.
EithertheBushgangarelesstalentedliarsthanourpreviousgovernments,orthiswarissogoddamnabsurd,no
matterhowtheydressitup,theycantsellittothemajority.

Interview with Robert Anton Wilson

copyrightGregoryBishop1992

(alsoavailableinthecollectionZenInTheArtOfCloseEncounters
EditedbyDavidPursglove)
Q:IntherecentbookAngelsandAliens,authorKeithThompsonciteswhathecalls"metapatterns",whicharerepeatedpatternsinseeminglydipsaratephenomena
whichconnectthem.Doyouentertainthisconcept,andifso,how?
Wilson:Yeah,Iseemetapatternsbetweenevolutionandhumanhistory.Iseeanaccelerationofinformationthroughoutevolutionandyoucanseeasimilaracceleration
ofinformationthroughouthumanhistorymovingfasterthantheevolutionaryone,andIthinkcosmic--ifyouconsidertheuniverseasevolving--there'sanother
accumulationofinformationovertimeonabiggerscale.That'soneofthemetapatternsI'vefounduseful.
Q:Youdon'tthinkthat'sjustbecausewe'renoticingit,thattheuniverseistickingonitsmerryway?
Wilson:Wellthat'sthedeepestquestionofall!Idon'tknow.JohnArchibaldWheelerthinksit'sbecausewe'renoticingit.Hethinksthatwe'refinetuningthebigbang
everytimewemeasureit,oratleastameasurementonasufficientlysmallscale,sowe'reselectingthisuniverseoutofallpossibleuniversesbythemeasurementswe
make,butIdon'tknowwhetherIbelievethatornot.
Q:ThompsonalsocomparestheUFOphenomenonandpeoplethatstudyittoabsurdisttheatersuchasWaitingForGodotwherethewaitingbecomesrobotic
entertainment...
Wilson:Well,Ithinkit'smorelikealittlefilmbyIdriesShah--TheDermisProbe---it'sadenseleatherysomethingandthesevoicesarguingaboutit.Thecamerakeeps
movingbackasthevoicesfindmoreandmoredetailsandmoreandmoretoargueabout,untilfinallythecameramovesbackenoughsothatyoucanseeit'san
elephant.It'sanadaptationofanoldSufitale.Ithinkit'smorelikethe,UFOmysterythananyofBeckett'splays.Everybodygetsaholdoftheirfavoriteendand...
Q:...won'tletgo...
Wilson:That'swhatitis!..."It'sextraterrestrials""It'sangels""It'sdemons...hallucinations..."
Q:Fariesandelves...
Wilson:...fariesandelves...yeahIlikethattheorybecauseit'sveryhardforanybodytotakeitliterally,soitgetsonethinkingonadifferentlevel.
Q:Wheredidyoufirsthearaboutthattheory?
Wilson:FromJacquesValeein1976.
Q:AroundthetimeofPassporttoMagonia?
Wilson:Aroundthattime,yeah.ImethimandthenIranrightoutandgotthebookandreadit,andthenIreadInvisibleCollege,whichwasthenextbookhebrought
out.
Q:DoyouseeUFOsasanexperimentoratleastaflyintheointmentofmodern(last50yearsorso)consciousnessoratleastideasofconsensusreality?
Wilson:Ohyes,verydefinitely.That'swhatIlikeaboutit.IlikethemetaphorthatBradSteigerusedalthoughIdon'ttakeitliterally:Intherealitygame,everytimewe
thinkweunderstandit,theplayerontheothersideintroducessomenewmovethatinallofinfinityhasneverbeendonebefore,sowe'vegottostartthinkingagainand
tryingtofigureouttherulesofthegameallover.IlikethatasametaphorbecausetheUFOisverymuchlikethat--it'sanewmovethattheuniversehasmade.That
explainswhyalotofpeopledon'twanttothinkaboutitatall.
Q:Itforcespeopletochangetheirwaysofthinking,andthat'sscary....Whatisyourfeelingthatmanyofourmajorreligionsaretheresultofcontactwiththe"alien"the
"other",oratleastwhatwenowregardasanomalousexperience?
Wilson:Well,majorreligionsofallsorts,fromshamanictothemost"advanced"(whichiswhattheycallthemselves--themoresuccessfuloneswithmillionsoffollowers).
Allreligionsseemtobebasedonsomesortofencounterwithanalienpresence,orwhatseemslikeanalienpresence.Accordingtoonetheory,it'sjusttheotherhalfof
ourbrain.
Q:LikethemiracleofFatima.
Wilson:AtFatimathenumberofpeopleseeingoddthingsincreasedwitheachvisitationuntiltherewereabout100,000witnessesfromalloverPortugalwhosawparts
ofthelastonewhichwas"alightbrighterthanathousandsunsandpetalsfallingoutofthesky"orsomethinglikethat.ReallyitsoundslikeacosmicHoudiniwasputting
onashowforthem.
Q:Whatwouldyouthinkwouldhavehappenedifthishadhappenedinsay,China,Japan,orIndia?
Wilson:Oh,Itwouldhavebeendragonsfightingdragonsinthesky...thesethingsalways...ongoingthroughthehumannervoussystemtheygetadaptedtothelocal
beliefsystem.
Q:DoyouthinktheywouldhavetakenitjustasseriouslyastheCatholicchurchdid?
Wilson:Ohsure.Whateveritwas,itcertainlystruckalotofpeopleveryhard,soitwouldhavebeenareligiouseventwhereverithappened.Iwasataconferencein
GeorgiaafewmonthsagocalledPhenomiconandthiswasthefirsttimeIeversawthis:Wehadtwoeyewitnessesintheroominthisfinalpaneldiscussion.Two
eyewitnessestothisUFOsightingthatwasseenbyquiteafewpeopleinAtlanta.Oneofthemsawaspaceshipwithportholesandtheotheronesawaweatherballoon.
Ifoundthatabsolutelyfascinating.ThiswasthesubjectofmyPHddissertation--howourperceptionsareadjustedtofitourbeliefsystems.Thiswasafascinating

exampletowatch.Neitheronehadanydoubt--theywerebothwomen--whichisirrelevant,butIhavetosaythattoexplainmygrammar.Eachonewasconvinedthat
whatshesawwaswhatwas"reallythere"intheexternalworld.Neitherofthemhadanyawarenessthattheirbrainhadtakenthousandsandmaybemillionsofenergyeventsinspace-timeandcorreleatedthemintheirbrainstoputtogetherthispictureandprojectitoutward.Leachhassaidthatnoneofusrealizewhatgreatartistswe
are.Thisisaprimeexample.
Q:TherewasacaseinKentuckywheretwopeoplehadbeenridingalonginacar.Onesawacraftlandandtypicalaliensgetoutandabductthem,andtheothersawa
schoolbusgoingby.Theybothsworeupanddownthatthat'swhattheyhadseen.
Wilson:(Laughter)IthinkI'veseenmoreUFOsthanmostpeoplebecausehavenodogmasaboutthis,andsoI'malwaysnoticingweirdthingsthatIdon'tquiteknow
whattheyare.I'veseenUFOs,butIseeUNFOstoo--"UnidentifiedNon-FlyingObjects".Theworldisfullofthingsthatpuzzleme.I'mnotquitesurewhattheyare
andhowtoclassifythem.
Q:Actually,Ihavesomenon-UFOquestionshere...Ireadyourlastbook(CosmicTriggerPart2)anditseemedverypessimisticorevenparanoid.Iprobablyshouldn't
askthisnowbecauseyou'llgetoffended.
Wilson:Well,nowI'mcurious.
Q:Well,yourlastbookseemedveryacidic.Anyway,ifyousaywe'retheartistsofourownreality,doyouenjoypaintingpicturesofinsanegovernmentfiguresandtheir
plotstoruinourlives?
Wilson:That'saverygoodquestionandthatbookpresentsvariouswaysoflookingatreality.Sometimestheworlddoeslookthatwaytome.Somepeopleseethe
worldthatwayallthetime.WhatIwastryingtodointhatbookisshowthatwecanseetheworldthatwaypartofthetime,butyoudon'thavetogethungupon
seeingitthatwayallthetime.
Q:ItwasstartlingbecauseIhadneverreadanythingthatdarkinyourbooks.
Wilson:Wellinmynovels--youprobablyreadonlymynon-fiction.PeoplewhohavereadonlymynovelstendtothinkIhavetragicandsomewhatparanoidviewofthe
world.Peoplewhohavereadonlymynon-fictionthinkI'munrealisticallyoptomistic.Itrydifferentrealitytunnelsindifferentbooks.
Q:Whatmadeyoustartdoingthat,doyouthink?
Wilson:TheKennedyassasination.IwasreadingallthecontroversialliteratureandIgottoseemoreandmorehoweverybodyinthatdebate,onallsides,howthey
wereadjustingthedatatofittheirprejudices.SoinIlluminatus,myfirstlongnovel(incollaborationwithBobShea)wegaveacoupleofdozenalternativescenarios
andeverybodyinthebookfiguresitoutdifferently,andthereaderhastofigureoutwhichversionthey'regoingtobelieve,oraretheygoingtobecomeagnostic.
LaterIrealizeditwasnotjusttheKennedyassasination,Icouldapplythattothewholeworld.ThatattitudeiscalledModelAgnosticismandit'sverypopularin
modernphysics,andtosomeextentit'sreachingtheothersciencestoo.It'stheideathatthemodelisusefulforatime,butyoudon'teverbelieveinitthewaypeople
usedtobelieveinreligiousdogma.
Q:Here'soneabitoffthetrack...Whatareyourtwoorthreefavoritefilmsandwhy?
Wilson:TheTrialbyOrsonWelles,becauseit'sanunsolvablemystery.Ifitwassolveable,I'dloseinteresteventually,asitis,Icanlookatitoverandoverandalways
haveanewattitudetowardsit.Ialwaysfindsomethingnewinit.
Q:And...?
Wilson:AnotheronebyOrsonWelles,FIsForFake,whichisadocumentaryabouttheimpossibilityofmakingadocumentary.It'sadocumentaryinwhicheverybody
islying,includingWelleshimself.Younevercanfigureoutwho'stheworstliarandhowmuchyoucanbelieve.Someofitistrue,butyoucanneverbesurewhichpart.
Otherdocumentariesareterriblydishonest,comparedtothatone,whichadmitsit'slying.Adocumentarythatadmitsit'slyingishonest,adocumentarythatprentendsto
behonestislying...AndStardustMemories,byWoodyAllen.
Q:That'soneofmyfavorites.
Wilson:That'sverymuchlikeFIsForFake.Youneverknowwhat'srealandwhat'spartofoneofhismovies.Sometimesthecharactersseemtoescapefromhis
moviesintoso-called"reality",exceptrealityitselfisamoviethatwe'rewatching,right?Hishostilityescapesfromhismovieintoreality...
Q:Andattackshisex-wifeandmotherandit'sabouttogethispsychiatrist...
Wilson:(Laughs)Itgetsoneofhisfanstoo.Itsuddenlyreappearswhensomebodyisaskinghimaboutthesexualityofartistsand"haveyoueverhadintercoursewitha
horse".
Q:Yeah"withsomekindofwildanimal"orsomethinglikethat.
Wilson:Andhishostilitysuddenlyappearsonscreenanddragstheguyoff!(laughs)
Q:Whatis"utopia"anddoyoustillseeitasapossibilityinthenextfewdecadesorso?(Relativelyanyway).
Wilson:Utopiaisaworldwherethere'snonucleararmsrace.WhereIdon'twakeupeverymorningwonderingwhethertheSovietUnionorthegovernmentthatalleges
it'sminearegoingtostarthurlingnuclearweaponsateachother.Sowe'vealreadyachievedutpoia.That'sobviouslynotgoingtohappen.
Q:It'llbeanothercountrythat'sbuyingweaponsofftheSovietUnion.
Wilson:Irefusetoworryaboutthat.Theyscaredmemostofmylife.Nowthey'reclaimingthere'sholesintheozoneandI'msupposedtoworryaboutthat.Iamtoo
old,Irefusetofallforthiscrapanymore.TherestofmylifeI'mgoingtoenjoymyselfandI'mnotgoingtoletthemscaremeanymorewiththese...theRussiansturned
outtobe...theyjustfellapart.Theyneverhadanyplantoattackthiscountry.Theywereafraidofthiscountryallalong.
Q:Well,itkeptalotofpeoplegoingonfear.

Wilson:AndIwon'tworryabouttheozonelayer.It'llfixitself,orwe'lllearnhowtofixit.I'mnotgoingtoruintherestofwhatI'vegotleftoflifewithworryingabout
that.
Q:Itseemslikethere'sadifferentfindingeveryweek."No,it'snotgoingasfastaswethought","Yes,it'sgoingmuchfaster,timetotakesteps"etc.Idon'tsenseyou
haveasmuchhopeinthefutureasyouoncedid.Isthisincorrect?AnddoyouagreewithIsraelRegardie'sstatementthatthingswillgetworsebeforetheygetany
better?
Wilson:IthinkI'masoptomisticasIeverwasinthelong-runevolutionaryperspective.Thisideathatwehavetogothroughsomehorrorbeforewe'recured,ifthat
weretrue,we'dhavebeencuredlongago.We'vebeenthroughenoughhorrors,especiallyinthiscentury.AfterHitler'sdeathcampsandHiroshimaandVietNam,how
manyhorrorsdowehavetogothroughbeforewe'rereadytobehappy?Ithinkwe'rereadytobehappyrightnow.I'mnotgoingtoletRegardiestopme.
Q:Wellhecan'tobjectnow.Doyouthinkallthisis"milleniumjitters"oristheshitreallygoingtohitthefan?
Wilson:Iregardmyselfandmyfriendsasthepowerelite.ThatwayIdon'thavetoworryifsomeoneelseismanipulatingme.They'retrying,butwe'reoutsmartingthem
everystepoftheway.Mostpeoplewanttobelievesomebodyelseisincharge.Thentheydon'thavetotakeresponsibility.Thentheyhavethesupremepleasureof
perpetuallycomplainingthatsomebodyelseisincharge,anditwouldbebetterifonlytheywereincharge.AslongasIthinkI'mincharge,I'vegotnothingtocomplain
about.I'vegottotaketheresponsibilityforallofit.HowcanIgoon?(laughs)Well,someofushavemoreballsthanothers.I'msixtyyearsold.Inanytraditional
societyIwouldhavebeenhangedlongago.

Backtomainpage

Intervieww/RobertAntonWilson--IsThereReasonForOptimism?
>ROBERTANTONWILSON<bold>,</bold>describedbyfuturistBarbaraMarxHubbardas"OneOfTheLeadingThinkersOfTheModernAge,"willbeadding
hisgeniusandhumortoTheProphetsConference,takingplacetheweekendofAugust27-29inthebeautifulsettingofPortTownsend,Washington.Wilsonwillbe
presentingaworkshopentitled"There'sASeekerBornEveryMinute,"andhewillparticipateonapanelcalledtogethertoinvestigatetherealityandimplicationsofthe
UFOphenomenonandhowiteffectsus.OtherUFOpanelistsareDr.EdgarMitchell,JohnA.Keel,JoeFirmage,Dr.StevenGreer,Dr.JohnMack,andMarcia
Schafer.LeadingnovelistandprophetofsortsTomRobbinsistentativelyscheduledtojoinWilson'sconferencelecture/workshop.Robbinsplanstodialogueandread
>fromhisnextbook.
>Informationat:<<http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html>http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html
>________________________________________________
>ThefollowingisafascinatinginterviewwithRobertAntonWilsonappearingin"CommonGround"Vancouver,July1999Issue.
>ROBERTANTONWILSON
>TheauthoroftheIlluminatusTrilogytellsushisnews
>RobertAntonWilsonisthecoauthor,withRobertShea,oftheundergroundclassic"TheIlluminatus!<italic><underline></underline></italic>Trilogy",whichwonthe
1986PrometheusHallofFameAward.Hisotherwritingsinclude"Schrodinger'sCatTrilogy,"called"themostscientificofallsciencefictionnovels,"by<italic>New
Scientist</italic>,andseveralnonfictionworksofFuturistpsychologyandguerillaontology,suchas"PrometheusRising"and"TheNewInquisition."Wilson,whosees
himselfasaFuturist,author,andstand-upcomic,regularlygivesseminarsatEsalenandotherNewAgecenters.Wilsonhasmadebothacomedyrecord
(<italic>SecretsofPower</italic>)andapunkrockrecord(TheChocolateBiscuitConspiracy),andhisplay"WilhelmReichinHell"wasperformedattheEdmund
BurkeTheatreinDublin,Ireland.Hisnovel<italic>Illuminatus!</italic>wasadaptedasa10-hoursciencefictionrockepicandperformedunderthepatronageofHer
MajestyQueenElizabethIIatGreatBritain'sNationalTheatre,whereWilsonappearedbrieflyonstageinaspecialcameorole.
>HewillbeaspeakeratTheProphetsConferenceinPortTownsend,WA,August27-29.Forinformationcalltoll-free1-888-777-5981.
>________________________________________
>TELLUSaboutyourcareer,interestsandaccomplishments?
>Ifyouthinksurviving67yearsonabrutal,backwardandsuperstitiousplanetranksasanaccomplishment,I'vedonethat.
>MyinterestsincludeJungianpsychology,Reichianbio-psychology,Leary'sneuro-psychology,generalsemantics,quantummechanics,synergeticgeometry,Crowley's
magick,neurolinguisticprogramming,ethnomethodology,moviesingeneralandespeciallythefilmsofOrsonWellesandClintEastwood,Buddhism(Zen,Tibetanand
Shinranflavorsincluded),"FinnegansWake"byJamesJoyce,the"Cantos"ofEzraPound,AndyWarhol,ElmyrdeHory,theThreeStooges(especiallyMoeHoward),
theobsessiveritualsofserialkillersandthesimilarbutcontrastingritualsoftheStateinre:capitalpunishment,whetherornotGodhasawilly(theogenderology),how
manyplanetswithintelligentlife-formshavereceivedbynowthefirstbroadcastsof"ILoveLucy"transmittedinthe1950s,andalotofotherweirdstuff.MaybeIdid
toomuchacidinthe'60s.
>WHATPROJECTSareyouworkingon?
>I'vegottenstartedonanewbook,"TheTaleoftheTribe,"abouttheinfluenceofanthropologyonJoyceandPound,andtheirinfluenceonInternet(viaMarshall
McLuhan.whogothiswhole"globalvillage"scenariooutof"FinnegansWake"andthe"Cantos,"andalwayssaidso.)
>I'vealsostartedtinkeringwithanoldandunsatisfactorybookofminecalled"PLAYBOY'sBookofForbiddenWords."Myfirstandworstbookworst,afterthe
editorsatPlayboyPressdidtomymanuscriptwhattheRomanArmydidtotheSabinewomen.AndIdidn'tfightbackenoughbecauseofmyignoranceand
inexperience.NowI'mdoingthebookthewayIwantedittocomeoutthefirsttime.Inowcallit"RobertAntonWilson'sBookofBlackMagickandCurses"andit
willincludealltheanthropologicalandneurolinguistictheoremsthatPlayboyexcised.Thelanguageofobscenityandscatology,withallitspoetryandpain,itsbitterwit
anditswitchcraft,hasneverhadasmuchstudyasitdeserves.GreatartistsinthatareaofBigTaboo--artistslikeSwift,Rabelais,Joyce,GeorgeCarlinetc.--tellus
moreaboutourselvesthanagoogolplexofbooksonsocialscience.
>WHATBOOKShaveinfluencedyourlifeandwhatbooksareyoureadingnow?
>Ithinkmovieshaveinfluencedmemorethanbooks,especiallymovieslikeFForFake,TheTrial,ChimesatMidnight,TouchofEvil,HighPlainsDrifter,HonkyTonk
Man,MidnightintheGardenofGoodandEvil,CitizenKane,Bird,Intolerance,APerfectWorld,and,ofcourse,TheSilenceoftheLambs.Idolikealotofbooks,
too,especiallythosebyJoyce,Pound,Faulkner,Mencken,MarkTwain,JonathanSwiftandthosetwoClassActsfromthepulps,RaymondChandlerandHP
Lovecraft.
>I'vejustfinishedreading"Hannibal"byThomasHarrisand"TheGeneral'sDaughter"byNelsondeMille,andI'minthemiddleofmybi-annualre-readingofPound's
"Cantos."HannibalLecterseemstomethegreatestvillaininthehistoryofcrimefiction.Bycomparison,ProfessorMoriartylookslikecardboardcutout.Moriartyjust
becameacriminaloutofgreed,andusedhismathematicalgeniustocreatepuzzlesnobodycouldsolve--exceptSherlockHolmes,ofcourse.Dr.Lecterhasmuch
moreinteresting(andesoteric)motives,andhisgeniuscomesacrossahellofalotmoreconvincinglythanMoriarty's.DoyleonlytellsyouthatMoriarty"is"agenius,
andwe'resupposedtotakethatonfaith.Dr.Lectertalkslikeagenius,andactslikeone,too.
>WHATISYOURmostseriousconcernabouttheplanet?
>TheStupidityProblem.AsJ.R."Bob"Dobbshassaid,"Youknowhowdumbtheaverageguyis,right?Well,mathematically,bydefinition,halfofthemareeven
dumberthanthat."Myfavoritephilosopher,GeorgeCarlin,pointsoutthatifyoudoubtthat,takealongapadeverytimeyougooutandmakeanotewheneveryousee
orhearsomethingincrediblystupid.Attheendofanaverageday,you'llhaveatleast40notes.Andthat'sevenifyoudon'tgointoachurchorpoliticalmeeting.Welive,
potentially,amidUtopianabundance,whichremainsinvisibletomostofusbecauseoftheFourBlockagesnamedbyR.BuckminsterFuller--"ignorance,fear,greed
andzoninglaws."Iregardignoranceastheprimeevil,thesourceofallthefear,thegreedandthezoninglaws.Weneedapilltomakeeverybodysmarter.Iguesssuch
amagicpotionwouldalsomakethemhappier,healthier,funnier,sexierandlesseasytogovern.MaybethoselasttwoaspectsoftheBrainBoostermakesthe

Establishmentnervousaboutitandthat'swhyithasn'tappearedonthemarketyet.(IhearrumorsthatsuchaHeadExpanderhadappearedonce,backinthe'60s,and
quicklygotsuppressed,butthatsoundslikejustanotherparanoidrumor.Doesn'tit?)
>WHATDOYOUforeseeforthefutureoftheplanetanditspeople?Istherereasonforoptimism?
>Isuspectorintuitthat,asLeninsaid,"themachineisrunningtheengineers."Wecan'tdismount,evenifthehorseseemstohavegottenoutofcontrol.Informationwill
continuetodoublefasterallthetime,leadingtonewtechnologies,andthenewtechnologieswillunleashChaos(inthemathematicalsense),andsocietywillchangein
unpredictableandunexpectedways.Isuspectorintuitthatthisever-acceleratinginfo-techno-sociologicalrev-and-ev-olutionfollowsthelawsoforganicsystemsand
continuallyre-organizesonhigherandhigherlevelsofcoherence,untilsomethingkillsit.
>Sincegene-poolslastmuch,muchlongerthanbiologicalunits,orpersons,Iassumegene-poolshavehigherintelligencethantheisolatedunits.Sincespecieslastlonger
thantheirsub-dividedgene-pools,Iassumethataspecieshasahigherintelligencethananygene-poolwithinit.AndsinceGaiaortheBigComputerorwhateveryou
wanttocallthetotalTerranGeo-bio-masshaslastedbillionsofyears--despitefloodsandearthquakesandmeteorsandmassiveextinctionsandIceAges--Iassumeit
hasmoresmartsthananysub-setslikekingdoms,families,genera,gene-pools,etc.
>Thereasonforoptimismliesinthebiologicalfactthatitkeepsyouhappyandbusy,whereaspessimismjustleadstolyingaroundandbitching.I'dratherkeephappy
andbusythanliearoundbitching,butIknowthiswillnotconvincethosewhoreallylikelyingaroundandbitching.AsNietzschesaidthatoptimismandgoodhealth
alwaysgotogether,andsodopessimismandmorbidity,inthemedicalsenseoftheword.
>COULDYOUspeakaboutaliensontheplanet?
>Idon'tdowellspeakingaboutthingsIdon'tknowanythingabout,soI'llspeakinsteadabouttheUnknownandtheInexplicable.Ifindtheminexhaustiblyentertaining
asobjectsofspeculation,sincetheyobviouslyincludealotmorethantheknownandtheexplicated.IsuspectandalmostbelievethattheUnknownandInexplicable
playedaroleinthedesignoftheDNAmolecule,assuggestedbySirFrancisCrick,SirFredHoyle,Dr.TimothyLearyandothers.IalsosuspectthattheUnknownhas
meddledalotinhumanaffairs,andtheInexplicablehaslaidhands,ortentacles,orsomething,onusmanytimes.
>AsThomasHuxleysaid,theuniverseactsalotlikeachessgameinwhichtheplayerontheothersideremainsinvisibletous.Byanalyzingthemoves,wetrytoform
animageoftheintellectbehindthem.ImagesthathaveseemedalmostbelievabletomeatvarioustimeshaveincludedthegodsandgoddessesofancientGreece(ifyou
developaClassicPoetryhabit,thatkindofneurolinguisticprogrammingcanhappen...)andalso,ofcourse,thoseextra-terrestrialswhohavesomuchpopularitythese
days.Ihavealsoconsideredtheplayerontheothersideasmoreimpersonal,liketheTao,ormorebizarre,likeShivaDancing,ormoreabstract,likePhilipK.Dick's
VastActiveLivingInformationSystem(VALIS.)Mostly,thoughIthinkoftheplayerontheothersideasapookah--aresidentofIreland,inrabbitform,whomayat
anytimedumpatruckloadoftheUnknownandInexplicablerightonyourdoorstep.
>HOWCANonefindoutmoreaboutyourwork?
>Ithinkmybruisedmodestypreventedaproperanswertoyourfirstquestion.Thosewhowanttoknowaboutmyworksandcareershouldconsult
<<http://www.rawilson.com/>http://www.rawilson.com,andlookintomyfanclubatalt.fan.rawilson.
>________________________________________________
>OtheroutstandingauthorsandteacherscomingtopresenttheirworkduringthisunparalleledweekendinPortTownsendWashingtonareJamesTwyman,Gregg
Braden,JoanPhillipsOcean,andIlonaSelke.
>CompleteProphetsConferenceInformationisAvailableforyouat:
<<http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html>http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html<underline>
></underline>YoumayrequestTheProphetsConferenceBrochurebycallingtoll-free1-888-777-5981andleavingyournameandaddress,orbyemailing
axiom@greatmystery.org.
>Thankyouforforwardingthisinformationtoyourfriendsandmemberlists.
>Questions,unsubscribe,subscribe,inquiries,comments,issues?
>Sendemailto<underline>Cody@greatmystery.org
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ESTWebHomePage|ESTWebInterviewsIndex

RobertAntonWilsonInterview
WHATEVERelseyoumaythinkaboutRobertAntonWilson,heisagentleman.Thereisnoothertermforamanwhocancomeoffstageafterspeakingfor
twohours,jet-laggedandshortofsleep,andgrantaninterviewtoayoungwriterinalargeleatherjacket.Iamstillamazedthathewaspreparedtotalkto
me.PerhapsitwasthelookinmyeyeperhapsthecopyofForteanTimesinmyhand.PerhapsitwasthatIwasdroppingthenamesoffourmutualfriends
includingRobertSheaasheavilyaspossible.PerhapsitwasthatIappearedverystonedandpossiblydangerous.
Iwasn'tactuallystonedbutIwasflyinghighonanassortmentofantibioticsandcoughremedies.Nevertheless,itgavetheexperienceofsittinginahotel
barnexttooneofthemostoriginalwritersofthetwentiethcenturyafewnoveltwists.ATVsetshowing"VicReeves'BigNightOut"behindmedidnothelp
mystateofmindatall.
Inaway,thefollowinginterviewcanberegardedasmedicinefightingagallantbutlosingbattleagainstjetlag.Facts,ifyouneedthem,areasfollows.The
interviewwasconductedataround10.45pmonWednesday27thFebruary1991,andwasrecordedonanAiwaHF-S150.Ontherightstereochannel:a
white-hairedAmericanclaimingtobeRobertAntonWilson,withasloweasyvoiceandadeeplaughfullofenjoyment.Ontheleft:JamesWallis,witha
cough.
JW:Quitealotofthepeopleinthehalltonightseemedtotreatyouasaguruorprophet.Doyouhaveanyproblemswiththat?
RAW:Ikeeptryingtoblowthatupbymakingfunofit,bytalkingaboutmyownfallibilityandstupidity.Itseems...well,somepeopleturnmoviestarsinto
gurus.Itdoesn'tevenmeanyouhaveanyintelligence,itjustmeansthatalotofpeopleneedgurusofsomekindoranother.
JW:IsupposeinasenseyourbookslikeIlluminatus,beingthefirst-well,notthefirstseriousworkbutthefirstin-depthworkonconspiracytheorieshave
madeyousomeonewhoistoberespectedandlookedupto.
RAW:Isupposeso,butit'salsomademeatargetforparanoiabyalotofconspiracybuffswhocan'texplainwhatI'mdoingexceptontheassumptionthat
I'maGovernmentagentassignedtoconfusethem.
JW:IknowI'veheardKerryWendelThornleydescribedasthemostparanoidmaninAmerica.
RAW:Justabout.HewasoneofthefirsttodecideIwasaGovernmentagent,oroneofthefirstIknowabout.
JW:ItwouldbepointlesstoaskifyouareaGovernmentagent,ofcourse.
RAW:Well,Isometimeswonder.YouknowtheCIAslangforsomebodythey'reusingwhodoesn'tknowhe'sbeingused?Theycallthata"usefulidiot".
Thosewriterswhogetexclusivesfromcongressmen,andtheyhavenoideathecongressmanisworkingfortheCIAandtheexclusiveisamyththey've
inventedthattheywanttogetintoprint.Ifthejournalisttakesit,they'reausefulidiot.SoofcourseIhavetoaskmyselfoccasionally,haveIbecomeauseful
idiotyet?(laughs).
JW:Inthatyou'respreadingdisinformationandridiculingthings?
RAW:Yeah,soIgottakeepwonderingaboutthat.
JW:TowhatextentareyouinvolvedwiththeDiscordiansandtheChurchoftheSubgeniusthesedays?
RAW:I'minvolvedtosomeextentI'minvolvedinalotofthingstosomeextent.IgotastoryinthelatestSubgeniusanthology,IputDiscordianreferencesin
mybookshopingtospreadDiscordianism,ImeetotherDiscordiansfrequently.EverytimeI'minDallasI'montheHourofSlack,theSubgeniusradioshow.
JW:Towhatextentdoyouthinkyou'vebecomeapartoftheNewAgemovement?ThestallsintheatriumtonightseemedtobeconcernedwithalotofNew
Agematerial,andtoanextentthewayyou'vebeentalkingaboutVirtualRealitiesandmindexpansionyouseemtobealmostaforerunnerofthemovement.
RAW:TheBerkeleymoboncecalledLearyandme"thecounter-cultureofthecounter-culture."I'msomekindofantibodyintheNewAgemovement.My
functionistoraisethepossibility,"Hey,youknow,someofthisstuffmightbebullshit."
JW:Youdon'tseemtotakeverymuchofitveryseriously.
RAW:SomeofitIdotakeseriously.InPrometheusRisingandQuantumPsychologyI'mdefinitelytryingtoteachthereaderhowtochangetheirown
consciousnesssotheydon'tneedagurutodoitforthem.I'mverydefinitelyaspiritualanarchist.
JW:Togetbackforamomenttothenutsandhappeningsthatseemtosurroundyou,twothingsfocusedmyattentionquiterecently.Thefirstthingwasthat
someoneheldupafast-foodrestaurantdemanding$100,000,ahelicopterandacopyofTheWidow'sSon.
RAW:ThatwasinAtlanta,Georgia.Thecharacter'snamewas"Noid".Iwrotealittlestoryaboutitinmynewsletter,Isaidthat"Noidgotannoidandperhaps
alittleparanoidtoo."
JW:DidhegetthecopyofTheWidow'sSon?
RAW:No,no,hesurrenderedfinally,heletallthehostagesgoandsurrendered.Hewasprotestingapizzacommercialwhichhethoughtwasinsultinghim.
JW:TheotherthingissomethingI'veonlyheardrumoursabout:aGermanhackerwhowasusingthenameHagbardCeline.
RAW:Hagbard,yes.HepenetratedtheentireAmericandefenceestablishment.HegotallthroughfromtheNavaldatabaseinNorfolk.Oncehebustedinto
thathewasabletogetintoeverythingtheaircommand,theLawrenceLivermorelaboratorieswheretheywereworkingonsuper-superweapons.Hewas
browsingthrougheverything,hewasatitformonthsbeforetheycaughtupwithhim.
JW:WhatIheardwasthathewasprobablykilledbyCIAoperatives.
RAW:TheGermanpoliceruleditwassuicide,buteverybodyinGermanythatIknowtellsmethattheCIAbumpedhimoff.Theyhaven'tcomelookingforme
yet.
JW:Youhavetalkedabouttheextenttowhichyouareresponsibleforwhatyouhavewrittenandthewaythatpeopletreatthem.Doyoubelievethatyou
haveanyresponsibilityforpeoplelikethisusingyournamesandyourideastodothingswhicharenotsomuchillegalorimmoralasjustplainstupid?
RAW:That'saveryhardquestion.Howcanyouansweraquestionlikethatwithoutsoundingpompous?Ithinkit'sthewriter'sresponsibility-anysentence

thatbegins"Ithinkit'sthewriter'sresponsibility"soundpompous!Ithinkit'sthewriter'sresponsibilitytocommunicateasclearlyaspossible,whichmaybe
ratherhardifyou'redealingwithacomplexsubject,yourclaritymaynotseemlikeclarityatfirst,itmayrequiresomeworkonthepartofthereader.Butyou
arenotresponsibleforeverynutwhogetsholdofyourpagesbecausethereisnodefenceagainstit,youcan'tpreventit.Howmanynutshavebeeninspired
bytheBible?LeavingouttheInquisitionandtheCrusadesandsoon,everycoupleofyearsthere'sacaseinAmericaofsomenutwho'sreadingtheBible
andsuddenlygoesoutandstartsshootingallthefornicatorsorsomethingcrazylikethat.Godtellshimwhothefornicatorsaresohecanshootthem.And
it'shappenedtoallsortsofwriters.ThomasWolfehasastoryaboutaguywhogoescrazyandstartsshootingeverybodyintownandafellownamed
HowardUnrainNewJerseyreadthatbookandwentoutandstartedshootingpeople.Itcertainlywasn'tThomasWolfe'sintentandIdon'tseehowhecould
beblamedforit.It'sthefaultofpubliclibrariesandbookstoresfornotkeepingthesebooksoutofthehandsofnuts(laughs).
JW:Soifyourwritingsdohaveanintention,whatisit?ObviouslywithbookslikeQuantumPsychology,theirintentionisquiteclearbutisthereasubtext?
Doyouwanttoalterthemindofthelatetwentiethcentury?
RAW:Andthetwenty-first,yeah.AtmymostambitiousIwanttomakeasbigarevolutionasVoltaireorMarxorNietzsche,onlyIhopeminewillbetotally
wholesome.Ofcourse,that'shopingforalot.Onamoremodestlevel,IjusthopeIgivesomepeoplesomegoodlaughs,cheerthemupandmakethema
littlemoreoptimisticbecausetheworldissufferingfromterribledepression.It'saglobalillness.
JW:HowdoyouseetheIlluminatus!trilogythesedays?Hasitbecomesomethingofamillstoneroundyourneck?
RAW:No,noI'mstilldelightedwithit...Ican'twriteaformulabook.Itriedonce,thatwasMasksoftheIlluminati.Istartedouttowriteanordinarydetective
story,andthenmyimaginationranawaywithmeandoutcameMasksOfTheIlluminatiwhichisadetectivenovelbuthardlyanordinaryone.
JW:YouseemtohaveatremendouspassionforJamesJoyce.
RAW:Yeah,I'vepublishedseveralarticlesonJamesJoyce.Iwouldhavedonemoreexceptthatthere'snotmuchmoneyinwritingaboutJoyceandI'vegot
tohavethatsomewhereinmyconsciousnesswhenI'mwriting.IcanwriteacertainnumberofarticlesthatIdon'tgetpaidfor,butmostofmyarticlesIhave
tothinkaboutgettingpaidfor.
JW:WasthatpartlywhatpromptedyoutogoandliveinIreland,orwasthatadesiretogetoutofAmerica?
RAW:Alittlebitofboth.IwantedtoliveinIreland,notjustbecauseofJoycebutbecauseofalotofsentimentalattachmentstoireland.AndIwantedtoget
outoftheUnitedStatesbecauseRonaldReagangavemenightmares.Isaid"IfthatguyevergetselectedI'mgoingtoleavethecountry,"andIfeltIwas
weaselingifIdidn'tleave.Andwritersdon'tpaytaxinIreland.
JW:DidRonaldReagangiveyoumoreorlessnightmaresthanGeorgeBush?
RAW:Less.ItoldlotsofpeoplethatBushisgoingtobealotworsethanReagan,andI'mgettingagrimsatisfactionoutofseeingthatpredictioncometrue.
JW:WhatdoyouthinktheprospectsareforDanQuaylegettingelectedin1997?
RAW:Idon'tthinkhewill.Icouldbewrong,theAmericanvoterscontinuallyhorrifymebutIdon'tthinkthey'llgothatfar.IthinkwhatexplainsAmerican
politicsisthattheDemocratsusedtobethepartyofthepoor,andthentheysoldout.Televisiondidit.Ittakes$100mtorunacampaignforpresident,$30m
torunacampaignfortheSenate.Sobothpartiesareinthebag,they'rebothbeingfinancedbythemulti-nationalcorporations.Andthepoorhavefigured
thatout,there'snobodythatrepresentsthemandsotheydon'tvote.SotheRepublicanswinallthetime.It'sveryhardtogetathirdpartystartedinthe
UnitedStates,it'stooexpensive.Somostpoorpeopleandmostintellectualsjustdon'tvote,theydon'thaveanybodyrepresentingthem,thetwopartiesare
practicallyindistinguishable.
JW:DoyouhaveamessageforBritishyouth,ortheworld'syouth?
RAW:I'mawfullytempted.AllthesepeopleprotestingthePollTax,theyshouldreadupontheGordonRiotsof1780andfindouthowit'sreallydone.Oh
God.No,don'tprintthat.Thepolicewouldbeonyou.Icouldn'tresistsayingitbutdon'tprintit.DoIhavealessinflammatorymessage?Theworldis
controlledbybeliefsystems-BS.Don'tbelievetotallyinanybody'sBS.Thesecondcommandmentislikeuntothefirst:don'tbelievetotallyinyourownBS.
That'smymessagetotheyouthoftheworld.
JW:AlsotheworksofRobertAntonWilsoninanutshell.
RAW:Don'tbelieveinthemtotally,they'reallsubjecttorevision.AnythingcanbesentbacktotheRewritedepartment,ormayevengetfollowedintotheIt
NeverHappeneddepartment.Ididn'tinventthem,WilliamBurroughsinventedbothofthosedepartments.Ithinkthey'reveryactive,althoughmostpeople
don'tknowhowtogetaccesstothem.
JW:Doyouhaveinfluences?Peoplewhoseworkyoufollow,oratleastregardasimportant?
RAW:ThomasPynchon,WilliamBurroughs.Bohm,Sheldrake,NickHerbert,FredWolfe,AlanGinsberg,TerrySouthernifhe'donlywritesomethingagain.
JW:HowdoyouregardPynchonasimportant?Obviouslyhe'saconspiracytheorist...
RAW:Wehavealotincommon.It'soneofthosethings,likeDarwinandWallace,whenthetimeisrightacoupleofpeoplearegoingtobesayingpretty
muchthesamething.ThereareenoughdifferencesbetweenPynchonandmethatIthinkI'malittlemorethanjustanechoofPynchon.AtleastIliketo
believethat.SheaandIwerefinishedwithIlluminatus!whenwereadGravity'sRainbowandthenontherewritewedeliberatelythrewinacoupleof
referencestoit,butwehadworkedoutthestructureonourown,mostlyonthebasisofthenutmailthatPlayboygets.
JW:WhatwasyourinvolvementwithPlayboy?
RAW:SheaandIwereworkingonthePlayboyForum,thatbeingadiscussionbetweentheeditors-thatbeingSheaandmeatthattime-aboutthebasic
ideasofcivillibertiesandthelimitationsofgovernmentandthegenerallibertarianphilosophy.AndsincewewereattackingtheGovernmentforattackingthe
rightsoftheindividualonallsortsofissueslikedrugsandabortion,consensualsexbetweenadults,weweregettinganawfullotofnutmailfrompeople
whothoughttheywerebeingpersecutedbytheGovernment,imaginingthemostbaroqueparanoidfantasies.
Andwestartedthinkingofhowallthesepeoplehaddifferenttheoriesaboutwhatwaswrongwiththeworld,andsupposetheywereallright?Supposeall
theseconspiracytheoriesweregoingonatonce?(laughs)SowebouncedthataroundforafewdrinkingpartiesandthensuddenlySheasaid"Youknow,
wecouldturnthisintoanovel."Weshouldreallyhavededicatedthebooktoalltheparanoids,fromwhomwelearnedsomuch.
JW:Howdoyouseethefuture?Isitrosy,isitindeterminate?
RAW:Iguessit'sindeterminate,butthepossibilityofarosyfutureisatleastasrealasthepossibilityofablackfuture,soIprefertoputmyimaginationand
willandenergyintomakingtherosyfuturecometrue.

Outro

Justincasetheabovedidn'tactuallymeanverymuchtoyou,afewwordsofoutroductionareinorder.
RobertAntonWilsonisfamousformanyreasons,butfarandawaythelargestofthemishis1975collaborationwithRobertSheaontheconspiracytheory
trilogy,Illuminatus!.Thisfictionaljourneythroughlatesixtiescountercultureisinfluencedbymostofthetheoriesregardingglobalmanipulationcurrentatthe
time,anditinturninfluencedmanyofthetheoriesthatcameafterwards.Andit'sanastonishinglygoodreadtoo.
Hehaswrittennumerousothernovelsexploringtheoccult,conspiracies,quantumphysicsandwhateverelserattlesaroundinsidehisbrain,includingthe
Schrdinger'sCattrilogy,MasksoftheIlluminati(starringAlbertEinstein,JamesJoyceandAleisterCrowley)andthestillunfinishedHistoricalIlluminatus
trilogy(ofwhichTheWidow'sSonispart),allexcellentbooks.
Wilsonhasalsowrittenseveralbooksexplaininghisviewofpersonaldevelopment.TheseincludeIshtarRising,CosmicTrigger(volumetwoofwhichisjust
out),QuantumPsychology,andwithKoopmanandacid-guruLeary,Neuropolitics.Throughoutthese,Wilsonisinfluencedbothbytheoptimisticacronym
S.M.I2.L.E.(SpaceMigration,IntelligenceIncrease,LifeExtension),andbyhiswideknowledgeofoccultsystems.Hisbeliefscombinealoathingfordogma
withanoptimisticfaithintheabilityofmoderntechnologytosolveall,partlybyprovidingopportunitiesforusalltoexpandourminds.
Someviewhimasatechnophiliacmasturbator,fillinghisnovelswithnaivepersonalobsessions,othersseeinsteadafringegenius,unafraidtoexplore
seriouslyareasthatmuchofsocietystillregardsassciencefiction...DidtherealRobertAntonWilsonstandup?
InterviewCopyrightJamesWallis.OutroCopyrightBrianDuguid.

KBOO-FMInterviewwithRobertAntonWilson
byCliffWalker
1990(orso)onKBOOFM,Portland,Oregon
CliffWalker:Hi,mynameisCliffWalker.WelcometoKBOO,Robert!
RobertAntonWilson:It'sgreattobehere.
Walker:RobertistheauthorofTheIlluminatus!Trilogy,Schrdinger'sCat,MasksoftheIlluminati,and
themostrecentseries,TheHistoricalIlluminatusChronicles--thosearethenovels.Someofmyfavorite
non-fiction:SexandDrugs,CosmicTrigger,PrometheusRising,andthebrandnewone,Quantum
Psychology.WhatisQuantumPsychologyabout?
Wilson:QuantumPsychologyisaboutthefactthatwecanneverknowrealitythewayweknowour
modelsofreality.
Walker:Sowhataresomeoftheideasyouaretryingtoshareinthisbook?
Wilson:Chiefly,thattheparadoxesinquantummechanicsdon'tjustexistinquantummechanics.They
existineveryareaofknowledge.Modernarthasgottentobeveryrelativistic,justlikemodernphysics.
We'reevengettingrelativisticfilms,thesedays.TotalRecall,withSchwarzenegger,isaboutamanthat
doesn'tknowwhichmemoriesarerealandwhichareimplanted.Andthere'sanewmovie,Jacob's
Ladder,whichhasasimilartheme.Theseareverysimilartothethemesofmynovels,curiouslyenough!
Theworldismovingintoanewerainwhichwe'rebeginningtorealizeeveryinstrumentcreatesa
differentreality-tunnel.Everybrainisadifferentinstrument.Theinstrumentswemake,todoscience,
turnouttohavethesamelimitationsastheinstrumentwestartedwith--whichisourownbrain.Every
instrumentrevealsapartialreality:ayardstickdoesn'ttellyouthetemperatureaGeigercounter
doesn'ttellyoutheweather.Everyinstrumenthasitslimitations.Everybrainhasitslimitations--except
thebrainsofthePope,and,er,theAyatollah,andGeorgeBush,andthemembersofC.S.I.C.O.P.
All:[laughter]
Wilson:Butalltherestofusarestuckwithrelativity.
Walker:Okay.So,we'removingfromthinkingthatweknowwhatrealityis,to...[gesturesforWilsonto
completethesentence]
Wilson:Allwecansaynowiswegotamodelthatseemstowork--forthepresent.Itprobablywon't
workinanothertenyearsthelifetimeofmodelsisgettingshorter.
Walker:Whyisthis?
Wilson:Becauseoftheinformationexplosion:informationisdoublingfasterallthetime.Ittookfromthe
timeofJesustothetimeofLeonardoforonedoublingofknowledge.Thenextdoublingofknowledgewas
completedbeforetheAmericanRevolution,thenextoneby1900,thenextoneby1950,thenextoneby
1960.Youseehow[itkeeps]movingfaster?Nowknowledgeisdoublingeveryeighteenmonths.
Withallthesenewbits,bytes,blipsofinformation,nomodelcanlastlongbecausemodelsonlyinclude
thebytesofinformationthatwereavailablewhenthemodelwasmade.Asnewbytesofinformation
comeinitgetsharderandhardertoadjustouroldmodelstoincludethenewblipsandbeepsof
information,sowe'vegottomakenewmodels.
Walker:Whatkindsofmodelsdon'tchange?
Wilson:Themodelsthatdon'tchangearereligiousmodelsbecausethey'redefinedsothattheycan'tbe
tested.Somepeoplefindgreatcomfortinthis,butIdon'tfindanycomfortatallinamodelthatcannot
betested.
Walker:Thisbook(QuantumPsychology),alongwithPrometheusRising,containsexercisesforthe
readerstodo.Whatisthepurposeoftheexercises?
Wilson:Idon'tthinkthemodern,scientificviewpointsIexpoundcanbeunderstoodeasily.SoIputin
exerciseswiththethoughtthatifthereaderdoestheexercises,heorshewillgettolearn,er,

understandtheprinciplesbetter--orwillgocrazy.Oneortheother.
Walker:Oratleastunderstandsomeoftheproblemsinvolved?
Wilson:Oratleastunderstandtheproblems.Yes.
Walker:Howissemanticsinfluentialinhowweseeandhowweact?
Wilson:Wecanonlythinkcertainthoughtsbecauseofthekindoflanguageweuse.Ifwegetathought
thatdoesn'tfitintolanguagewe'reapttothinkwe'rehavingamysticalexperience--unlessweknow
wherewegotthedrugs--butotherwise,we'reinclinedtothinkit'samysticalexperienceifitdoesn'tfit
intolanguage.Therefore,languagedelimitsus.
Walker:Givemesomeexamples.
Wilson:Well,inourlanguage,er,there'sanaturaltendencybuiltintotheIndo-Europeanfamilyof
languagestodividethingsinto"either-ors,"probablybecausewehavetwohands.Nobodyrealizesthe
influenceonhumanphilosophy--upinthehighestlevels--ofthefactthat50,000yearsagochildren
startedplayingthegameofgrabbingarock,puttingtheirhandsbehindtheirback,andthenholdingtheir
handsoutandsaying,"GuesswhichhandI'vegottherockin?"There'sonlytwopossiblechoices,there.
It'sgottabeintherighthandorthelefthand.We'vebeensoconditionedbythatinthelast50,000years
thatwethinkeverythinghasarightandaleft,oratrueandafalse.It'saterribleshocktousdiscover
somethingwhichtheOrientdiscovered2,500yearsago,ormore,whichmodernsciencehasjust
discoveredinthiscenturynamely,thatmostoftheuniverseconsistsofmaybes.Thereareveryfew
thingsthatwecanhammerdownintodefiniteyesesornos.
Youcanreduceeverythingtoyesesornosifyou'resittinginanarmchairdiscussingabstractphilosophy,
butwhenyou'redealingwiththerealworld,it'sveryhardtoforcethingsintotheyesesandthenos.The
peoplewhoareverygoodatforcingthemintoyesesandnosaretotalitariangovernments,andtheydoit
beshootingeverybodywhoseesthemaybes,orfindingsomeotherwaystoshutthemup:lockingthem
upforlifeorsomethinglikethat.
You'llfindmostreligionsthatarebasedontheyes-nothinghaveadistincttendencytogotowar
whenevertheygettheopportunity.JonathanSwiftsaid,"We'vegotenoughreligiontohateeachother
butnotenoughtoloveeachother."ThehistoryofChristianityhasbeenthehistoryofcontinuouswarfare
overyesesandnosbypeoplewhocan'tconceivethattheuniversecontainsmostlymaybes.
Walker:TheNewInquisition:persecutionofscientificinquiry.Whatpromptedyoutowritethisbook?
Wilson:Ibegantonoticethatthereareatheisticreligionsaswellastheisticreligions.Ofcourse,
Buddhismisanatheisticreligionthathasbeenaroundforalongtime,butBuddhismhasgottheOriental,
relativisticattitudebuiltintoit.IntheWesternWorld,theatheisticreligionshavethesameintoleranceas
thetheisticreligionsoftheWesternWorld.
Asamateroffact,fromtheeighteenthcenturytothepresent,therehasbeenasteadydeclineoftheistic
religionsasreasonsforpeoplemurderingoneanotherandaincreaseinatheisticreligionsasanexcuse
forpeoplemurderingoneanother.IntheNearEast,they'restillkillingeachotherovertheoldtheistic
religions:theJewsarekillingtheArabs,theArabsarekillingtheJews,theChristiansarekillingboth
ArabsandJews,andsoon,andthishasbeengoingonforeverintheMid-East.Thisistheirmetier:
religiousfanaticism.
Butatheisticreligionshaveprettymuchthesamestructure--intheWesternWorld,anyway--thesame
dogmaticstructure.MarxismisverysimilartofundamentalistProtestantism:theyknowthetruththey
don'tcarehowmanypeopletheyhavetokilltilltheygettheir"truth"established.Objectivismisvery
similar,that'sanotheratheisticreligion.I'vealwaysbelievedAynRandwasreallytheGrandDuchess
Anastasia.IthinkthatoneinWestVirginiaisafake.AynRandactedahellofalotmorelikeaRomanov
thanthatwomaninWestVirginia.AndIthinkaftertheBolshevikskilledherfamilyandsheescaped,she
decidedshewouldfoundanotheratheisticreligiontocompetewithCommunism,andthat'show
Objectivismgotcreated.
Andthenthere'stheCommitteeforScientificInvestigationofClaimsOftheParanormal,orC.S.I.C.O.P.
[pronouncedsci-cop].Thatisoneofthemostdogmatic,fanatical,andcrusadingoftheatheisticreligions
aroundnow.That'swhatinspiredmetowriteTheNewInquisition.It'sanexaminationofatheistic
religionsasaphenomenoninthemodernworld.
Walker:Whataresomeofthe--er--Ifthenew,atheisticfundamentalismismerelybecominga
replacementfortheoldtheisticfundamentalism,thenwhataresomeofthealternativesthatyouoffer?
Wilson:WellIthinkwe'dallbealotbetteroffifweadoptedmoreOrientalattitudes.I'mnotsayingwe
shouldbecomeOrientalsoracceptalotofOrientalsuperstitionoranythinglikethat,butthereareideas

wellestablishedintheOrientthatwecouldlearnfrom.ThegeneralattitudeofTaoismandBuddhismis
thatwhereveryouareinspace-time,that'syourreality.It'snotanybodyelse'srealityandthere'sno
sensetryingtosellittoanybodyelse,orforceitonthem.MostZenkoansactuallycomedowntothefact
--theanswertothekoanisfoundbyspeakingfromwhereyouare,ratherthantryingtofindanabstract
generalanswer.
Walker:[attemptingtopronounce"Schrdinger"]Schrdinger'sCat?Schrdinger'sCat?
Wilson:Schrodinger'sCat.
Walker:Schrodinger'sCat.Youutilizedquantumphysicsandothersciencestoframethisbook.Howdid
youusethis?whattechniquesdidyouuse?andexplainsomeofthe,er,thingsaboutthatbook.

Wilson:Well,Schrdinger'sCatanattempttowriteanewkindofsciencefiction.NewScientistmagazine,

I'mhappytosay,calleditthemostscientificofallscience-fictionnovels,whichreallypleasedmevery
much.ItpleasedmesomuchIquoteiteverychanceIcan.
WhatIwastryingtodowithSchrdinger'sCat:InsteadofgoingasfaroutasIcouldinmyimagination,I
triedtofollowwheremodernphysicsisgoing(whatarethemainlinesofinterpretationoftheuniversein
modernphysics?)andjustwriteaboutauniversethatfitsmodernphysics.Andthatissomind-blowingit
seemscrazierthananythingascience-fictionwritercouldinvent.Asamatteroffact,alotofitdoes
soundlikesciencefiction.
Themajority--well,notnecessarilythemajority,butagrowingminority(especiallyamongtheyounger
physicists),believesitmakesasmuchsensetosaythereareinfiniteuniversesasitdoestosaythereis
oneuniverse.Theequationsofquantummechanicscanbeinterpretedeitherway.Eitheroutofaninfinite
numberofpossibilities,theuniverse,everysecond,collapsesintoone--whichistherealitywe'reliving
inor,itdoesn'tcollapse:alltheprobabilitieshappenatthesametimeindifferentpartsofsuper-space.
Bothinterpretationsmakeequallymuchsense:theybothfittheequations,theybothfittheexperiments,
andthereisnothinginsciencefictionwilderthanthis"parallelworld."Imean,theparallel-worldidea
literallyimpliesthatIamhere,inthisuniverse,butintheuniversenextdoor,thecarIcamein(which
hadaslightflattire)wentofftheroadandIgotkilledanddidn'tdothisshow.Nowthat'sthe
Schrdinger'sCatparadox:Schrdingerdemonstratedthat,inquantumtheory,youcansayacatisdead
andthecatisalive,andbothcanbetrueatthesametime--eventhoughthatcontradictsordinarylogic.
Justthesamewaythecatcanbedeadandalive,I'mdeadandalive.ItgivesyouacertainBuddhist
detachmentfromthingstothinkthatyou'redeadandaliveatthesametime.Youcan'tgettooworried
whenyoustartthinkingofitthatway.[laughs]
Otherinterpretationsofquantummechanicsareevenweirder.Bell'stheorem,averyimportant--the
mostimportantdiscoveryinquantummechanicsinthelastthirtyorfortyyears.Bell'stheoremsaystwo
particles,onceincontact,continuetobemathematicallycorrelatednomatterhowfaraparttheymove
inspace--orintimewhichimpliesthatifItakeameasurementoftworaysoflight,andoneiscoming
fromastarandtook15millionyearstogethere,andtheotheriscomingfromacandleacrosstheroom,
becausethoseparticlesarecorrelated,theyremaincorrelatednomatterwhichwayyoulookintime.So
I'maffectingthatstar15millionyearsago.
Walker:[interjects]Andthisfitsthemathematicalequations?
Wilson:Thisfitstheequationsofquantummechanics.Ithasledtoasortofgeneralinterestinmonistic
philosophiesamongphysicists--monisticphilosophiesbeingthosethatsaythereisnoseparationinthe
universe,we'vejustcreatedseparationsinourmindsthroughourhabitofanalysis--allofwhichisvery
muchlikewhatanyNew-Agerwilltellyou,"Hey,man!It'sallone!"Well,thatisoneinterpretationof
quantummechanics:youcan'tseparateanything.It'scallednon-locality.Youcan'tseparateanythingin
spaceorintime.
Walker:WhatdoyouloveaboutJamesJoyce?
Wilson:[longpause]Jamison'sWhiskey.[startslaughing]No.Otherthings,er-All:[laughter]
Wilson:EverytimeIgotoZurichIbuyabottleofJamison'sandgoouttoJoyce'sgravewithsome
friends,andweeachhaveadrinkandthenwepourtherestofiton--well,maybewehavetwodrinks-well,sometimesthree--er,well,maybefour[laughs],onrareoccasions,wedrinkmostofthebottle
weoriginallyboughtfortheoccasion,andthenwepouradroportwo(orwhateverisleft)onthegrave
forJim.HewasagreatfanofJamison's.
No.WhatIloveaboutJoyce(besidesintroducingmetoJamison'sandGuinnessExtraStout--thetwo

greatestproductsthatevercameoutofDublin)ishewrotethefirstrelativisticnovel,Ulysses.Ulysses
seemstometheonlyrealisticnovelofthetwentiethcentury,becauseit'stheonlynovelthatcontainsat
leastahundreddifferentinterpretationsofitself,withinitself.Thereforeit'scontemporarywithquantum
mechanicsandGodel'sproofinmathematicsandCubistpaintingandmovieslikeCitizenKane,whereyou
getfiveversionsofthesamestoryJoyceanticipatedallofmodernscience,modernphilosophy,and
modernart.Andhewasveryfunny,too,likemostIrishwriters.
Walker:Whydoyouthinkhewascensored?Whydoyouthinktheybannedhisbooks?
Wilson:[verylongpausethen,stumblingangrilyforwords]Well,that's--er--I--Iuh--Howcanyou
explainthat!?It'slikeBobGeldof,therockstarwhodidBand-AidandLive-Aid.Hewasinterviewedby
theIrishTimes,inDublin,andtheyaskedhim,"Don'tyouthinkyouruseofimproperlanguagedetracts
fromthenoblecausesthatyouareespousing?"Andhesaid[WilsonstartsspeakingwithanIrish
brogue],"Idon'tknowwhatthafookimproperlanguageis!"Waal,Joycedidn'tknowwhatthafook
improperlanguageiseither[losesthebrogue],andneitherdoI.Ithinkit'ssomekindofcrazy
superstitiondatingbacktothestoneage.Thereisnoimproperlanguageforawriter.What'sproper
dependsonwhatkindofsceneyou'rewriting.
Walker:WhatinfluencehasCarlJunghadonyou?
Wilson:CarlJunggotmeinterestedinsynchronicity,ormaybesynchronicityledmetoCarlJung.I'mnor
sureoftheexactcausalorder.Somehow,er,noticing,er,thatrecordingmydreams,Ifoundtheywere
tiedinwithcoincidencesthathappenedinmywakinglife.Andtherewasnoschoolofpsychologythat
evencameclosetoexplainingthatexceptJung,Jungianpsychology,soIstartedreadingagreatdealof
Jung.
Walker:Okay[looksattheclock]wecantakesomecalls,[recitesstationphonenumber],ifyou'dliketo
askaquestion.
Wilson:Andifnobodycalls,I'lltalkmoreaboutDublin.
Walker:Okay,talkaboutDublin.Sixyears.[toproducer]Dowehaveacall?[nocall]Okay,talkabout
Dublin!Youspentsixyearsthere?
Wilson:Yes.Gee,there'ssomuchtosayaboutDublin,now--Ilookattheclock--howcanI?Oh,I'll
talkaboutCountyKerryinstead.
CountyKerryhasasix-foot-tallwhiterabbitcalledthePookah,andthisrabbithangsaroundpubslateat
night.Whenpeoplegetthrownoutofthepubsat10:30(whichiswhentheyclose),thePookahwaitsand
grabsoneofthemonhiswayhomeanddragshimoffintoanalternativereality,whereallthelawsof
sciencearereversed,timeandspaceareallmixedup.It'sverymuchlikeoneofmynovels--althoughI
likethisnewmovie,Jacob'sLadder.Andyouspendthousandsandthousandsofyearsoverthere-millenniums--andyoumeetFinnMacCoolandalltheancientIrishheroes:theWizardofOz,Luke
Skywalker,Shiva,Krishna,theDevas--allthesefigures.
WhenthePookahgetstiredofplayingwithyouandletsyougo,you'rebackontheroadandit'sonlya
fewminutesafteryouleftthepub--becausethePookahcanreversetime,stretchtime,condenseit,
anythinglikethat.ThePookahisnotlimitedbytime.
Ofcourse,theprobabilityofencounteringthePookahissaidbyDublin'scynicstobedirectlyproportional
tothenumberofpintsofGuinnessStoutyouhadinthepubthatnight.
Walker:[laughs]
Wilson:IheardaKerryfarmerinterviewedonIrishRadio,...andtheyaskedhim,"Doyoubelieveinthe
Pookahyourself?"
Andhesaid[usinganIrishbrogue],"ThatIdonot!andIdoubtmuchthathebelievesinmeeither!"
AndIthinkthatistheperfectintroductiontoIrishlogic.Irishlogicmakesalotmoresensetomethan
Aristotelianlogic.
Walker:Tonightyou'regoingtobelecturingattheFirstCongregationalChurch,1126SouthWestPark.
Thelectureiscalled"Sex,Drugs,andRockandRoll."Alittleaboutthat?
Wilson:Sexanddrugsandrockandroll.ThePopecametoIrelandandtheygaveaspeechinPhoenix
Parkandallhetalkedaboutwassexanddrugsandrockandroll.Andtheworld'sfullof--where
Amnesty[International]comesouteveryyearwithreportsontortureanddeathsquadsandother
abominationsgoingonallovertheworld,whereahundred-thousandpeoplearestarvingeveryday-here'sthisguy,allhe'sworriedaboutissexanddrugsandrockandroll.AndIthought,"Thisman'sgotta
beasaint:he'slivinginanotherworld.Heknowsnothingaboutthisworld."

SoIgotinterestedinsexanddrugsandrockandroll,astopics.Whydotheyarousesomuchanxiety?
AndthenImetabeautifulladyinBerlin,andshesaidsomethingthatreallyresonatedinmymind.She
said,"IcametoBerlinlookingforloveandsuccess,butIdecidedtosettleforsexanddrugsandrockand
roll."AndIthought,"Gee,that'saninterestingthoughtonthemodernworld."[laughs]Andtonight'stalk
isaboutmyreflectionsonsexanddrugsandrockandroll,orastheancientGreeksusedtosay,"Venus
andDionysusandApollo"--threepowerfuldivinitiesthathavebeensuppressedtoolong.
Walker:Okay,nowtomorrow,attheNorthwestServiceCenterat10:00A.M.--oh,thelecture,bythe
way,isfrom7:30to9:00--andtomorrow,attheNorthwestServiceCenterfrom10:00to7:00thereisa
workshop:"SexualEvolution,orHowtoTellYourFriendsfromtheApes."Somefinalwordsonthat?
Wilson:Well,tellingyourfriendsfromtheapesisn'tallthateasy.I'veseenchimpanzeeswhoIwasable
tocommunicatewithandwhocouldcommunicatewithmeinwaysthatmadealotmoresensethanany
conversationI'veeverhadwithacongressman.
Walker:Okay.Myname'sCliffWalker,we'vebeenspeakingwithauthor,psychologistRobertAnton
Wilson.Thanksforcominginandtalkingwithus.
Wilson:Oh,it'salwaysgreattocomebacktoPortland.You'vegotgreatgrassuphere!
Thistextis,tothebestofourknowledge,inthepublicdomainandisavailableforyourpleasureandeducation.It
istransmittedunderthe"FairUse"rulingsregardingthe1976CopyrightActfornon-profitacademic,research,and
generalinformationpurposes.
Ifthereistheslightestcopyrightambiguity,pleaseletusknowandwillimmediatelyaddresstheissueorremove
thefile.

ManBitesDogma
AConversationwithRobertAntonWilson
aboutPolitics,Religion,Drugs,andQuantumMechanics
byMichaelDare

He's been called a cult figure to various lunatic fringe groups, Tom
Robbins calls him "a dazzling barker hawking tickets to the most
thrilling tiltawhirls and daring loopoplanes on the midway of higher
consciousness," he calls himself an iconoclastic comedian, and whether
Robert Anton Wilson is a philosopher or a public nuisance is now up to
you. His books, The Illuminatus Trilogy, Schroedinger's Cat, and The
Cosmic Trigger all fall somewhere in between nonfiction and pure
fantasy, full of unquestionable facts and quotes that somehow always
add up to utterly preposterous conclusions. This devotion to
eccentricity and breaking down barriers reaches it's zenith in The
Illuminati Papers, a book seemingly written by characters from all his
other books. It contains, among other esoterica, a whole page of
Haiku by Raymond Chandler in which Wilson has simply taken short
descriptive excerpts from Chandler's work and reformatted them into
beautiful miniature poems.
With all the passion of a religious crusader, Robert Anton Wilson is
out to destroy all personal belief systems, to force every one of his
readers to seriously question any and all thoughts they hold dear. His
specialty is in analyzing systems that seem to contradict each other
and trying to find the points at which they do agree. In Promethius
Rising he synthesizes the works of Leary, Jung, Freud, Sagan,
Gurdjieff, Berne, and several others into a general system that shows
how much they have in common, where they disagree, and why. His
newest work, Reality is What You Can Get Away With, reads like a
screenplay by Picasso it's cubist, outrageous, completely nonlinear,
constantly startling, and very funny. All of his books are part of a
series; they're cinematic, full of cross cutting, montages, flashbacks,
and flash forwards. But no one seems to be able to figure out if this
new one is a movie or a book since it actively defies both definitions.
He's raised the puton to the highest art form.
Wilson holds a Ph.D. in psychology, edited the Playboy Forum for
six years, has made a comedy record (Secrets of Power) and a punk
rock record (The Chocolate Biscuit Conspiracy), the stage version of
his Illuminatus trilogy has been seen in Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Seattle,
Jerusalem, and was performed recently in Liverpool by the London

National Theater in a 12 hour noon to midnight marathon. His latest

play, Wilhelm Reich in Hell has only been seen in Ireland where Wilson
has lived for the past five years. A screenwriting job brought him to
Hollywood recently, where he has been delivering lectures and running
fantasy roleplaying encounter groups. These evenings are
enlightening, selfcontradictory, very funny, and hazardous to your
dogma. We started out talking about one of his favorite subjects.

DARE
Doyouseeeverythingasaconspiracy?
WILSON
No.Somebodyonceaccusedmeofclaimingthateverythingissubjective,butI
don'tmakestatementsabouteverything,Ionlymakepartialstatements.Ithink
conspiracyisveryprevalentbehavioronthisplanet.Itevenprecedeshumanity.
Lionsconspire-onelionwillfrightenaherdofantelopetogetthemrunningina
certaindirectionwheretheotherlionswillbewaitingtheretoeatthem.That'sa
conspiracyagainstantelopes,andI'msuretheantelopesareverybitteraboutit.
Antsconspire,theyseizeterritoryanddriveoffinterlopers,ratshaveveryvigorous
conspiracies,whenaratfromastrangepackgetsintoahousethey'llhunthim
downandkillhim.It'sjustlikethemafia,"Don'tdoanythingonourterritory."
DARE
Isitpossibleforaconspiracytobebenign?
WILSON
Itwouldhavetobeopen.Thedifferencebetweenaconspiracyandanaffinity
groupisthatwhenmeandmyfriendsdoitit'sanaffinitygroupandwhen
someonewedon'tlikedoesitit'saconspiracy.Conspiraciesruntheliteraryworld,
theartworld,marijuanaarriveshereduetoconspiracies.It'saconspiratorialworld.
Peoplenaturallyformgroupsandtotheextentthatthey'recompetingwitheach
other,theytrytohidewhatthey'redoing.ThebestexplanationofconspiracyisinTheTheoryofGamesandEconomicBehavior,a
verythickmathematicaltreatise.Itexplainsthatit'sverybeneficialtohaveconspiraciesincompetitivesituations-thebiggeran
allianceyouform,thequickeryoumoveahead.
Thefunctionofeveryallianceistoconcealinformationfromtheotherallianceandtospreadfalseinformation,justlikeinapoker
game.Youdon'twantthemtoknowwhathandyou'vegotbutyouwantthemtothinktheyknow.Pokeristheessenceofconspiracy.
Everybody'stryingtodeceiveoneanother.Abenevolentconspiracywouldhavetobeopen,withoutthefactorofconcealment,and
everybody'sinvitedin.That'stheonlykindofconspiracythatcouldreallyimprovetheworld.
DARE
SoyouthinkthatSummitConferencesshouldbebroadcastlivetoeverybody?
WILSON
Ofcourse.PeoplearesoparanoidabouttheBilderbergersbecausethey'resosecretive.Forallweknowthey'reonlygettingtogether
tolookatstagmoviesonceayear.TheBilderbergershavealotofmembersincommonwiththeTri-LateralCommissionandthe
CouncilonForeignRelationsandtheRoyalInstituteofInternationalAffairs.Toagreatextentthey'refinancedbytheRockefellers
andPrinceBernhardoftheNetherlands.They'reallpartofonegangthatmeetsonceayearinsecret.They'recalledtheBilderbergers
becausetheirfirstmeetingwasinBilderberg.Theygetmorecoverageeachtimetheymeetbecausethey'resosecretiveaboutwhat
they'redoing.Theysaythey'remeetingtodiscussinternationalharmonyandthepeacefulresolutionofourproblems,butnoone's
allowedtohearwhatthey'retalkingabout.
DARE
WouldgivingawaytheBilderberger'ssecretsmakethemmorebenign?
WILSON
No,itwouldjustmakethemmoreparanoid,moredevious.Mybusinessisnottoexposebuttocollectcomparativeexposessothat
thereaderscanseethatconspiracyisnormalbehaviorandthatthere'snoonebigconspiracythatrunseverything.
Inthe'30s,theNaziswereverymuchintothetheorythattheJewishbankerscontrolledeverything,andthatledtosuchhorror
thatitbecameforbiddentothinkaboutconspiraciesatallfordecadesthereafter.Thefirstpeoplewhosaidtherewasaconspiracyin
theKennedyassassinationwerealldenouncedasobstinatenutcasesandwanderingloonies.Myattitude,afterlookingattheevidence
foralongtime,isthatthereisnoonebigconspiracy,thatthehistorianswhorefusetoadmitconspiracyasafactorinhistoryarejust
over-reactingtostupidconspiracytheories.
Therereallyareconspiraciesofvaryingsizes,butthey'resobusyfightingeachotherthattheyhavenothingtodowithus.Mostof
themareformonetaryreasons.ThereareconspiraciestodecidewhosebookisgoingtobereviewedonpageoneoftheNewYork
TimesortheHeraldTribune.Oftenit'sthesamebookinboth,moreoftenthancoincidenceorevensynchronicitycanaccountfor.
Therearecommercialconspiraciestofixprices.Somehaveideologyormysticismbehindthem.Idon'tthinkyoucanunderstand
historyuntilyouunderstandtheelementofpoeticwhimsyandsheerirrationalityinthemindsofsocalledpracticalpeople.
InWW2,bothChurchillandHitlerthoughttheywereindirectcommunicationwithGod.SodidMacArthurandPatton.Hitlerand
MussolinibothoutlawedFreemasonryinGermanyandItaly.TheleadersofthewaragainstthemwereRoosevelt,a33rddegree

Freemason,Churchill,anotherhighrankingFreemason,Hoover,theheadofthesecretpoliceinAmericawasa33rddegree
Freemason
DARE
Whatexactlytothosedegreesstandfor?
WILSON
Theyindicatehowmanyinitiationsyou'vegonethrough.Actually,anyFreemasonwhoisnominatedtothepresidencyoftheUnited
Statesgetselevatedtothe32nddegreerightaway.Thenifhe'selected,he'sgiventhe33rddegree,whichisonlyhonorary.The32nd
degreeinmainlyconcernedwiththeKnightsofMalta,whoaretheenemiesofFreemasonry.
TheFreemasonsclaimthattheKnightsofMaltahaveswornanoathtostampoutliberalism,freethought,andrestorethetotal
reignoftyrannyandsuperstitionthatexistedinthedarkages.It'sasecretsocietywithintheCatholicChurchthatdoesn'tseek
publicityatall.Verylittleisknownaboutit.WilliamCaseyoftheCIAwasaKnightofMalta,AlexanderHaigisaKnightofMalta.
AccordingtoGordonThomas,anEnglishjournalist,theKnightsofMaltanowactascouriersbetweentheVaticanandtheCIA.His
theoryisverycomplicated,butitillustrateshowconspiraciesoperateintherealworldasdistinguishedfromparanoidfantasy.
TheGrayWolvesareaMuslimfundamentalistgroupwhodealherointogetmoneytobuyarmstocarryontheircampaignto
exterminateIsrael.They'vebeenveryinvolvedingunrunningbecausetheyhavealinkwiththeBulgariansecretpolice,whoarevery
muchintosellingmunitionsunderground.TheKGBusestheGrayWolvesforoperationsthat,ifthey'reeverblown,can'tbetraced
backtoRussia.RobertoCalviofBancoAbrosianowastakingagreatdealofthisheroinmoneyfromtheGrayWolvesandthemafia
andrunningitthroughtheVaticanBank,whichdoesn'thavetoshowrecordstoanybody.TheItaliangovernmentcan'texaminetheir
records,itbelongstothegovernmentofthestateoftheVatican,sothey'retheonlyoneswhocanlookattheirownbooks.Ifyoucan
getillicitmoneyintotheVaticanBank,itdisappearsforever,nobodycanfindanytraceofit.
TheGrayWolveshadagrudgeagainstthePopebecauseofhisinvolvementwithCalvi,whoembezzledsomuchmoneythat
everybodygotswindled.HewasfoundhangingfromabridgeinLondon,hissecretarywaspushedfromawindowatBanco
Abrosianothesameday,afewmoreexecutiveshavediedmysteriouslysincethen.Calvi'spartnerintheswindles,MicheleSindona,
wasconvictedinthiscountryof65countsofstockandcurrencyfraudandfakinghisownkidnappingtoescapeprosecution.Backin
Italy,hewasconvictedofthemurderoftheexaminerhiredtoinvestigatehisbank.Afterthattheyweregoingtoputhimontrialfor
conspiracyin80murders,buthewaspoisonedinhiscell.AllofthisispartofhowtheBulgariansecretpolicehiredakillerfromthe
GrayWolvestogetthePope.
DARE
Isn'tthePopejustafigureheadwithoutmuchpower,sortoftheGeraldFordoftheVatican?
WILSON
That'snottrue,thePopedoeshavealotofpower.ConsiderthecaseofPopeJohnPaulI.Hewasarebelwhodidn'tlikethewaythe
churchwasbeingrun,andin1978heannouncedthathewouldbegoingthroughacompleteoverhaul,throwingoutalotoftheold
crowdandbringinginnewpeople.ObservatoriPoliticosenthimalistof115FreemasonsintheVatican,includingmembersofP2,
whohadinfiltrated900membersintotheItalianGovernment,includingthesecretpolice.JohnPaulorderedaninvestigation,and
withinafewdayshewasmysteriouslyfounddead.
TheVaticanhasnevershownadeathcertificateandnoautopsywasperformed.Theytoldtwodifferentstoriesaboutwhofound
himdead,thingsdisappearedoutofhisbedroomthathaveneverbeenaccountedfor,includinghiswill,hismedicinebottle,andhis
glasses.Pecorelli,theeditorofObservatoriPoliticowhosenthimthelistofP2andotherFreemasonmembersintheVatican,was
shottodeaththroughthemouth,Mafiafashion,onthestreetsofRomeafewweekslater.Youcan'texplainthatintermsofonebig
conspiracy,thereareobviouslyinterlockingandfeudingconspiracies-theMafia,P2,theFreemasons,theBulgariansecretpolice,the
CIA,andGodknowswhoelse.
LiccioGelli,thegrandmasteroftheP2Lodge,wasonthepayrolloftheCIAandtheKGB.Hewasthatkindofoperator.He
disappearedfromItaly,whichshowshowmanyfriendshehadinthepolice.HeshowedupinSwitzerlandafewmonthslatertotake
somemoneyoutofabankaccount,andhewasrecognizedandarrested.TheSwissputhiminamaximumsecurityprisonbuthewas
outwithintwodays.Oneguardclaimedhewashypnotized.ThefascinatingthingisthatifyoulookatpicturesofReagan'ssecond
inaugural,you'llseeLiccioGellirightnexttoReagan.
Mostofthisinformationcanbefoundintwobooks,InGod'sNamebyDavidYallop,andInBanksWeTrustbyPennyLernoux,
whichexplainshowthewholeinternationalbankingsysteminterlinkswiththeheroinandcocainelaunderingbusinessthattheVatican
hasbeenrunning.
DARE
AreyousayingthePopeisadrugdealer?
WILSON
ThebiggestdruglaundromateverbustedinthiscountrywastheWorldFinanceCorporationinMiami.Thepresidentandseveralother
seniorexecutiveswereconvicted.TwodirectorsofthebankwereallegedlyformerCIAagents,buttheprosecutorswereblockedin
WashingtonwhentheytriedtoinvestigatetheconnectionsbetweenthebankandtheCIA.
Inanycase,theWFChadallthismoneygoingintoitfromSouthAmericancountriesthatareinthecocainebusiness,andthey
sentittotheCISAlpineBankintheBahamas,whichisownedbyArchbishopMarcinkuswhorunstheVaticanBank,whichiswhere
themoneyendedup.Afterthatit'sinablackhole,itdisappearsfromhumanvisionforever,mostlikelyendingupinSwissbank
accounts.Theprofitsfromthisgotowardskeepingthosedictatorsinpower,maintainingthesecretpoliceandthedeathsquads.
Afterthesecondworldwar,LiccioGelliwasshrewdenoughtostartanescaperouteforNaziwarcriminals,gettingthemtoSouth
Americaforafee,givingthemnewidentities,andcompletecover.Hekeptintouchwiththemastheyfoundjobsasorganizersofthe
deathsquads,doingthesamesortofthingstheydidinthe'40s,onlynowthey'redoingitforRonaldReaganandthemoneyisgoing
intotheVaticanBank.Obviouslyyoucan'trunachurchonjustHailMarys.
Theonlyreasoncocaineisillegalisbecausethere'ssomuchmoneytobemadeoutofitwhileit'sillegal.Ifitwerelegal,theprices

wouldgowaydown.
DARE
SoNancyReagan'swholeJUSTSAYNOcampaignisjustaploytokeepthepricesup?
WILSON
Orsheerstupidity.There'ssomuchmoneyinthecocainebusinessthatalotofLatinAmericangovernmentsdependonitfortheir
survival.TheCIAhasbeeninthecocainebusinessfor20or30yearsnow,andit'sveryusefulforthemtokeepitillegal.Thatway
theycanuseitasaformofcurrencythatdoesn'tleaveanyrecords.Whenyouhearaboutbigcocainebusts,thosearejustrenegades,
theentrepreneurswhoweretryingtoworkoutsideofthesystem.
DARE
You'vepaintedaratherbleakpictureofaconspiratorialworld.Arethereanypositiveactionswecantaketochangethings?
WILSON
Inmybooks,I'mtryingtoshowpeoplehowtofreetheirownminds.Ithinkthat'sthefirststep.Peoplehavegottobecomeless
mechanicalandmoreaware.Mybooksareallconstructedasmindfucks,togetthereaderstoopentheirbrainsup,receivenew
signals,andcomeoutoftheirconditionedpatternsofthoughtandperceptions.
TherearealotofUtopianideasinmybooksthatIdon'tthinkareimpracticalatall.IcallthemUtopianbecausethey'rebeyond
anythingthehumanracehasachievedinthepast,butwe'removingincrediblyfast.Ithinktherearechangesrightaheadofusthatare
evenbiggerthantheindustrialrevolution.Thehumanlifespanwillbedoubledbytheyear2000andquadrupledby2010.Oneman
flewtheAtlanticin1928,200millionflewtheAtlanticin1978.Takingthatfiftyyeartimespanasamodel,peoplestartedgoinginto
spaceinthe1960ssoby2010weshouldhave200milliongoingintospaceeveryyear.
DARE
Arethereanyexistingpoliticalsystemsyouadmire?
WILSON
Scandinaviansocialism.IfoundtheScandinavianstobeaboutthemostadmirablepeopleinEurope.cleanstreets,alowcrimerate,a
generalairofhighcivilization-luxuriesforallandatotalabsenceofslums,poverty,andugliness.Theyseemveryhappyand
productive,withoneofthemostwayoutfuturistmovementsintheworld.They'retheCaliforniaofEurope.
IhatetosoundlikeaMarxist,whichI'mnot,butthereasonyouhaven'theardaboutScandinavianSocialismisbecausethemedia
ofthiscountryiscontrolledbyrichpeoplewhoarescaredshitlessofsocialism.TheywantAmericanstothinkthere'sonlyonetypeof
socialism,SovietCommunism,whichisthekindofplacewheredissidentscientistsgetthrowninlunaticasylums,allofwhichistrue.
AmericansareparanoidaboutRussiansbutScandinaviansregardthemwithamusementthey'rethosebackwardspeoplewhothink
thatyoucanonlyhavesocialismbyputtingallthepoetsandpaintersinjail.TheScandinaviansrewardtheirpoetsandtheydon'tput
anyoneinjailfordissidentpoliticalopinions.
DARE
Aren'tyouscaredofgettingintrouble,offinallysayingtheonethingyoushouldn'thavesaid?
WILSON
We'realllivinginaworldinwhichonecannotapplyone'shighestidealswithoutgettingintoalotoftrouble.I'vegottenintrouble,but
Ihaven'tgonetojail,whichshowsImayhavemorecommonsensethanTimLeary.Icertainlydon'tclaimtobemoreintelligentthan
him.He'sthemostintelligenthumanbeingI'veeverencountered.
DARE
DoyousharehisconclusionsaboutLSD?
WILSON
LSDbreaksuphabitualcircuitsofthebrain.Itopensnewcircuits,breaksdownoldcircuits,andthere'snoevidencewhatsoeverthat
itdestroysbraincells.LSDisverymuchametaprogrammingdevice,itchangesthebasicprograms,that'swhyit'sdangerous.It
createsacuteparanoidstatesinbureaucratswho'veneverusedit.
Togetthebestoutofitneedsascientificorreligiousapproach,oneortheother.Peoplewhoarejusttrippingforthefunofitare
morelikelytoimprintawholenewrealitytunnelorpersonalityonthemselvesthattheyweren'tlookingfor.Ifyou'regoingtodoLSD,
youshoulddecidethechangesyou'reaimingatandstructurethetriptoleadtothatkindofchange.
There'snodoubtthatyoucanchangeeverypartofyourpersonalitywithLSD,that'swhyLearycallsitareimprintingdrug.It
changesbasicimprintswhicharemuchmorerigidthanconditioning.There'snodoubtthatIamadifferentpersonthanIambeforeI
tookit.
IwasastatisticalmaterialistbeforeIstartedexperimentingwithLSD,thatisIdidn'tbelievethelawsoftheuniversewere
absolutelydeterministicbecauseIknewenoughquantummechanicstoknowthatitbrokethemdown.ButIwasstillastatistical
materialist,everythingcouldbeexplainedbytheaccidentalpermutationsoflittlehunksofenergythatsolidifyintomatter.Iwas
perfectlysatisfiedwiththatexplanationoftheuniverse,andIneverrealizedthatIwasasdogmaticaboutitasanyCatholicwasabout
theirfaith.AfterLSDimpactedonme,Ibecameatotalagnostic,andI'mnotdogmaticaboutanythinganymore.Iknowthatevery
systemImakeupismyownbrainmakingupasystem.Noneofthesystemsisbigenoughtoincludethewholeuniverse,soallofmy
beliefsareonlyrelativelytrue.SomeareundoubtedlywrongbecauseI'mnotthatbrilliantthatInevermakeamistake.
Therearealotofpeoplewhodon'trealizehowconceitedtheyare.Byassertingwithsuchcertitudethethingstheybelievein,they
don'trealizethatthey'resaying"I'mthesmartestpersonintheworld,Icananswerallthequestions."PeoplelikeCarlSagan.Ijust
don'tknowhowhecanbesosureofeverythingwhen,byandlarge,themoreintelligentyouget,themoreyourealizeyoucan'tbe
sureofanything.

DARE
SinceNewtonianphysicsdon'tapplytosub-atomicparticles,howcanyouapply
logiconthequantumleveltoobjectivereality?
WILSON
There'salotofdisagreementamongquantumphysicistsonthatsubject,butIam
veryinterestedin,andalmostbelieve,theschoolthatincludesDavidBoem,who
wasdrivenoutoftheUnitedStatesduringtheMcCarthyera,andconsideredthe
mostbrilliantpupilofJ.RobertOppenheimer.
Thereisanon-localityprincipalinquantummechanics,whichmeansthat
thingsarecorrelatedevenifthey'renotconnectedmechanicallyorbyenergy
transmissions.Upuntilthiswasdiscovered,everythinginphysicscouldbe
explainedbyenergytransfers.Youhearmebecausesoundwavesmovefrommy
voicetoyourear,andsoon.
Thentheydiscoveredthattherewerethingsthatweremovinginharmonywith
eachother,andthattherewasnowaythatenergycouldbegettingbetweenthem.
Energycan'tmovefasterthanspeedoflight,andyettheseactionswere
instantaneouslycorrelated.Thereareseveralapproachestowardsunderstanding
non-locality,but,asSchroedingerputit,thesumtotalofallmindsisone.The
appearanceofseparateegosisonlyahallucination,likethatoftheflatnessofthe
earthorthemovementofthesunaroundtheearth.Theseideashaveallbeen
corrected,andtheideathatwe'redifferentfromtheanimalshascreatedmasshysteria.Theappearanceofseparateegosisa
hallucination.Weareallfacetsofonemind.
DARE
Butit'sanecessaryhallucination.Youcan'tplaychesswithyourself.
WILSON
It'snecessaryforthegameonthisplanetthateveryorganismhaveasenseofselfandasenseofthehive,thepack,it'susagainstthe
restofthemoutthere.AntlandUberAllesisthesongtheantssinginT.H.White'sMerlinstories,andeverygenepoolhasthatbasic
philosophy,justaseveryindividualhasit's"self".Youcangothroughconsciousnessalterationsbymeansofyoga,certaintypesof
shamanicmagic,andvariousdrugsthatteachyouhowtoidentifywiththegenepoolinsteadofyourprivateego.Youcangetbeyond
thatandidentifywiththewholebiosphere.
DARE
Canyouactuallyaffectyourowngeneticstructuresothatthesestructuralchangescanbepassedontoothergenerations?
WILSON
ItendtobelieveinSheldrake'smorpho-geneticfield,inwhichheproposesthatthere'sanon-localconnectioninbiologytoo.
Biologistsaredenouncinghimasanutandaheretic.ThoughthefirsttwoexperimentstocheckSheldrakehavetendedtovery
stronglysupporthim,they'vebeenruthlesslycriticized.
Itmakessensethatifyou'vegotnon-localconnectionsinphysicsthatyoucouldhavetheminbiologytoo.FreudandJungand
Learyhavealltriedtoaccountforracialmemoryorourabilitytorememberpastlives.They'vehadtopositthatsomehowgenesare
carryinginformationfromoneorganismtoit'sdescendents,butthispartofmodernpsychologyhasalwaysbeenrejectedbybiologists
becausethere'slotsofevidencethatgenescan'tdothat.Freudhadracialmemory,Junghadthecollectiveunconscious,Learyhasthe
neurogeneticcircuit,butthere'snowayanyofitcanworkmechanically,andthat'swhybiologistsrejectit.Theonlywayitcanwork
iswithSheldrake'snon-localmorpho-geneticfield,which,ifitexists,wouldletmesendsignalsthatwillbeabletoeffectthegenesof
futuregenerations,andnotjustthosedirectlydescendedfromme.IcancontrolthedirectionofevolutionthroughthoughtformsI'm
puttingout,andsocaneverybodyelse.
Peoplecan'tstayintheiroldrealitytunnelsanylonger,they'vegottostartacceleratingtheirbrainactivity.Veryspecifically,a
worldfullofIslamicfundamentalists,Protestantfundamentalists,dogmaticMarxists,andReaganitechauvinistAmericansismovingus
closerandclosertoWorldWarIII,andtheonlythingthat'sgoingtoheadthatoffisifpeoplestopbeingmidwesternmethodist
bankersorShutocomputerexecutivesorMuslimheroinsmugglersanddevelopabiggeridentity.They'vegottogetoutofthese
narrowlittletrips.BuckminsterFullerusedtosaythatoneoftheconsequencesofthetraditionalgameisnationalism.Planetearthisa
spaceshipwith150independentandsovereignadmiralsallsteeringindifferentdirections.
DARE
Whatisthenextstageinevolution?
WILSON
ThemodelIuseisadaptedfromLeary.Theoral-bio-survivalcircuitiswhattheamoebasoperateon-tasteeverything.Babiesoperate
onthattoo.That'sthecircuitwegobacktowheneverwe'reindanger,anddependingonwhatweimprintedthere,wewilleither
attackorrunaway.
Thenthere'sFreud'sanalcircuit,whichhastodowithclaimingterritoryandstatuswithinit.That'swhenwegothroughthe
mammalianritualsconcerningwhorunsthefamily,outsmartingourbrothersandsistersandtryingtorunthewholeshow,imprinting
ourdominationandsubmissionreflexes.It'swhypeoplecanholdjobstheirbossbecomesafathersubstituteandtheyattachalltheir
reflexestohim.
Nextthere'stherationalcircuitinwhichwedoourabstractreasoningwithwordsandmathematics,andthesociosexualcircuit
whereweimprintthepatternofhowwerelatetopeoplewithwhatdegreeofamityorsexuality.Everybodyhasadifferentimprint,
andsocietyhasonlyonegeneralsetofrules,soeverybodyisahereticasfarasthatcircuitisconcerned.Thosefourcircuitsarethe

naturalchild,theadoptivechild,theadult,andtheparentinBerne'ssystem.
Beyondthatistheneurosomaticcircuit,where,throughyogaordrugsorbodyworklikeRolfing,onegimmickoranother,youare
abletoturnontoyourownbodyinanewway,andinsteadofjustreactingtotheconditionedandimprintedprogramsonthefirst
fourcircuits,youareabletorelaxandgowiththeflowandenjoylife.
Thesixthcircuitistheneurogeneticcircuit,whichhastodowithmorpho-geneticresonances,comingincontactwiththe
experienceandreligioussymbolsofyourancestors,learningthatthey'vebeencontrollingyoubelowthelevelofconsciousnessall
yourlife.ThisiswhatShamanismtraditionallydealswith.Jungianpsychologywasthefirstattempttodealwithitscientifically,now
we'vegotdozensofotherstryingtobringpeopleintoharmonywitharchetypesofthecollectiveunconsciousorgeneticheritage.
Thenextisthemetaprogrammingcircuit,whichislearninghowthebraincanworkonthebrain,howyoucanimprintdifferent
identitiesandrealitytunnelsasyougoalong.Beforeyougettothatcircuit,youhavenoideawhattruefreedomreallyis,you'rebeing
manipulatedallthetimewhetheryouknowitornot.It'sthecircuitwhereyoudeveloptruechoice.
DARE
Howdoyougetthere?
WILSON
Ifyoudoalotofworkonthe5thand6thcircuits,the7thtendstoclickon.Firstyougetalotofsynchronicities,meaningful
coincidences,accidentalreinforcementfromyourenvironment,likesomeonecomingbytoloanyouabookthat'sexactlytheoneyou
werelookingfor.Jungfoundthathispatient'sdreamshadmoreandmoresymbolsoutofGreekandEgyptianandHindumythology
astheyprogressedintothatcircuit,evenwithoutstudyingthemconsciously.Theypulledthemoutofthecollectiveunconscious,
whichIthinkisactuallythemorphogeneticfield.
Abovethatthere'sthenon-localquantumcircuit,whichisthecircuitinwhichwegettrueoutofbodyexperiences,cosmic
identificationwiththewholeofexistence.
We'relearningsomuchaboutthelatterfourcircuits,whichLearycallstheextraterrestrialcircuits,thatwe'removingintoanew
stageofevolution.Morepeopleareonthefifthcircuitthaneverbeforeinhistory,andtherearegrowingsixthandseventhcircuit
minorities.It'snotanaccident.We'rechangingjustaswehavetochange.Thesecircuitswerethere,readytobeused,whenwegotto
thispointinevolution.Earlier,mankindcouldjustcoastalongonthefirstfourcircuits,andonlyvisionariesandmysticsandpoets
everturnedonthehighercircuits.Noweveryonedoesit.
DARE
Howtoyouteachpeopletoturnontheirhighercircuits?
WILSON
You'vegottoteachwithhumortomakethepillpalatable.Besides,humoristheessenceofrealizingourtruesituationinspaceand
time.Wearethesetinyfalliblebeingscrawlingaroundonarelativelysmallplanet,andanybodywhopontificatesdogmaticallyabout
anythingisgivingevidencethattheyareanidiot,evenifyouagreewiththem.Theyshouldn'tsoundthatcertain.Wethinkwe'reso
damnsmartandweknowsofuckinglittle.

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Propaganda
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Meeting with a Remarkable Man:
A Talk with Robert Anton Wilson
Propaganda Anonymous

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6 years ago 27 Comments

Introduction
The date was July 25, 2003. I was
somewhat in denial of the fact
that I was about to sit down with Robert Anton Wilson,
philosopher/magician/cantankerous
old codger, and conduct an interview with what felt like no prep at
alljust a few notes scrawled into my notebook when I found out that
I got the interview two hours
earlier. You see, originally
I was in town only to see a documentary about him entitled Maybe
Logic which by the way was sharp as a tack but then I decided to
go for the gusto and see if I could
sit down with the man who warped my mind like a K-hole
when I read the Illuminatus! trilogy as a teenager.
The reality of the situation was that I could only stay in town
for three nights, as that was the maximum amount of time the
International Youth Hostel of Santa
Cruz would allow me to sleep there. If I wanted to stay longer, I'd be
forced to pay inflated summer rates for a motel
room or kick it with the hobos and homeless on the streets for
a couple of nights. Or worse, I might have
to head back east with nothing but the impression that Santa
Cruz was a strange, strange place.

AUTHOR

41
website
Propaganda Anonymous is one
approach to a world drowning in images
and vertigo. Propanon is an MC in the
underground Hip-Hop scene of New York,
and beyond. He collaborates with the
Brooklyn Hip-Hop collective, Mindspray,
and has recently released his first solo
EP, 'Todo Corazon.' He is also a
contributor to the on-line publication, 'The
Maybe Logic Quartely;' a magazine
inspired by Robert Anton Wilson.

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The closer I got to RAW's apartment the more it dawned on me that

I was late, unprepared, and not sure if the tape recorder I just
bought at Radio Shack would pick up any of our conversation.
That's just how life is sometimes.

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For those who don't know who RAW was, or seemed to be, perhaps
the simplest way to put it is that the man was an icon for being an
iconoclast. Throughout his forty some

odd years writing biting social commentary with a sly psychedelic

wit, he used the language of a street comedian rather than
a pundit on a soapbox. Reading his books gives you the feeling that
he has turned on the lights and discovered that ostentatious
intellectuals have been unknowingly fondling an elephant with
maladroit hands. He assessed the bullshit, or er, elephant
shit, and wisely stepped aside and acted as a fair warning system
to those of us venturing into the less illuminated parts of our
minds. If there is one phrase that echoes in those darkened
halls it must be, "Think for yourself."
I was nervous. It was trepidation mixed with a strong feeling
of joy that allowed me to make it up the three flights of stairs
to RAW's apartment door without being winded. To me, Bob seemed a
master raconteur, at ease winding yarns around
his audience's mind until you laugh yourself out of the skull
cap he just knit for you with his story.

Interview

Propaganda Anonymous: I'm sitting here talking with Mr. Robert

Anton
Wilson. I originally came out here to see the world premiere
of his documentary entitled, Maybe Logic, premiering
on July 23rd, 2003.
Mr. Wilson, July 23rd, 2003 seemed like a special date on more
than one instance for that night.
Robert Anton Wilson: Well, it was Monica Lewinsky's 30th
birthday. I
only blew the minds of a few people. She blew the minds of the
whole country.or she blew something.
Prop: And along with Monica Lewinsky's 30th birthday, it
was also a day that was named after you, for the city of Santa
Cruz, by the Mayor.

Wilson: Yeah, a friend of mine in Massachusetts is trying to

make it a national celebration among my fans, which would
be called Maybe Day. He asked me to suggest rituals. I
wrote back in e-mail just before you arrived. I
suggested he should invite Christians, Jews, and Moslems,
and have chanting of "Jesus is the only Son of God, maybe" "Hear
O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, maybe" and "There's no God
but Allah, maybe, and maybe Mohammed is his prophet." I think
this will do a great deal to restore sanity to this planet.
It depends if Jews and Moslems show up for this celebration.
Maybe it'll do their heads a lot of good.
Prop: And also on that day, as mentioned in Maybe Logic,
was the 30-year anniversary of when you first received
communications

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from what seemed to be an extra-terrestrial-higher intelligence.

Has there ever been any recurrences, small flashbacks, if you
will, since those 30 years past?

Wilson: Oh um, it never really stopped. But my metaphor

for it changes. Now I prefer to regard it as an increase
in intuition and psychic abilities, rather than a separate entity
guiding me. But the experience takes different forms. Sometimes
I forget about it for weeks on end. I prefer to think of
it as a white rabbit from County Kerry, because there is no
chance anybody will take that literally, including me.
Prop: You were involved in a protest in September 2002 concerning
the issue of medical marijuana. What exactly has the federal
government impinged upon in crossing the rights of citizens in
California, concerning that issue?

Wilson: Well, the government kills people. Take Peter McWilliams,

the best-selling author. [And I'm not a best-selling author;
I'm a cult author. I have a small but passionate following.
It'd be nice to write a bestseller. I admire people who
have that skill. I wish I had it.] He was a best-selling
author, and one of the leading gay rights advocates. And
he had AIDS and Cancer. They took away his marijuana,
which controlled his nausea, and a few weeks later he choked
on his own vomit, and died.
Now, of course, there are thousands of people in pain all over
the country, because the government won't let them have medical
marijuana.
And then there was a case in Virginia. It was on 60 minutes.
On CBS news! Goddamnit. The truth even gets into the corporate
media sometimes.
This doctor had his license suspended for three years
for giving an unnamed drug, they wouldn't name it I
think it was heroin, but I'm guessing to a patient who had
some condition I never heard of, it's very rare. This guy
was in horrible pain, all over his body, 24 hours a day. The
only relief he got was from this unknown drug this doctor gave
him. So the doctor's license was suspended, and this guy
committed suicide. He made a video of himself, shooting himself
in the head, denouncing the United States government. They showed
that on CBS.
The only possible rationale that can justify the behavior of the
federal government and the Tsarist bureaucracy, would be that,
no sick person in the country, nor their doctor and none of
their family in consultation, none of us, can judge what's best
for the patient. Only the Tsar knows what's best for the
patient. The only way this makes any sense is if we assume the
doctrine called Mystical Tsarism, which arose in the 19th century
in Russia as a defense against European rationalism.

Mystical Tsarism held that the Tsar is directly guided by God, and
therefore no one can understand his decision except him and God.
That's the same rationale as our government today the Tsar
must be directed by God; how else could he know what medicine
is best for every patient? He must be guided by God, so they
revived mystical Tsarism, and incorporated it into
the Constitutional democracy we once had in this country
and they're killing people, and they're hurting people
all the time, and they're doing this for reasons nobody
knows. Either they're mentally stark staring batshit crazy, and
they really do believe that some "god" is gonna to
run the whole system for us, or else they are so superstitious
and stupid that they should really be put in remedial reading
classes and start over in Kindergarten or something like that.
Or they're in conspiracy with the large pharmaceutical companies
to keep people from getting cheap effective medicine and
force the sick people to use the expensive and rather ineffective
medicine that the big drug companies keep pushing at us. "Let
them eat Celebrex."
Prop: I read in a previous interview that you considered yourself
an Anarchist earlier in your career.
Wilson: At one point I was calling myself an Anarchist, an Atheist,
and a Witch. Then when I reached my 40's I softened that. I
started to describe myself as a libertarian, a pantheist, and
a neopagan. And since then I moved on to a decentralist, a
pragmatist, and
a proponent of maybe logic. I got the idea from T.S. Eliot.
T.S. Eliot was the most popular poet of the 1920s, and suddenly
in the 1930s he announced he was a monarchist in politics, a
classicist in literature, and an Anglo-Catholic in religion.
It horrified most of his previous admirers, and it brought
him a whole new bunch of admirers from the other side
of the literary world.
Then Dylan Thomas declared himself an Anarchist in literature,
a Drunkard by religion, and a Welshman in politics.
Prop: Was he drunk when he said that?
Wilson: Well he usually was. He died of drink. Damn fool. People
who die of drink are all damn fools.In my judgment, I don't
mean they "are" damn fools. I mean, I judge them to
be damn fools, from my estimation, in my reality-tunnel.
Some of the people I admire most died of alcoholism. Malaclypse
the Younger, the founder of the Discordian Society, W.C. Fields,
William Faulkner, Hemingway.
Hemingway shot himself, because, as he told a friend "I can't
hunt, I can't write, and I can't even fuck. What's the
use of going on?" That was all because he put
too much booze into his body, ruined his liver and his brain.
Prop: He did LSD. Hemingway.

Wilson: Really? I never heard about that.

Prop: Well, I wouldn't call myself an expert researcher in
Hemingway, but I heard that he had done LSD once. I was
hoping you might verify that.
Wilson: Nah. Maybe he didn't have the right set and setting.
There's nothing magical in LSD by itself. You gotta have LSD
plus the right set and the right setting for really dramatic
changes. That's
why I got interested in Crowley. I was reading Magick
in Theory and Practice, trying to figure out what
the hell it's all about. Trying to make sense of his medieval
ravings and rantings. Then it suddenly struck me. This was the
best way to program an LSD trip. Do a Crowley ritual
work it up, all the steps, then keep careful records afterwards.
Do the rituals, keep notes, keep notes for at least a year, then
see the results you're getting, and see if you need to change
the path and try a different set of rituals.
This is a science! This is as empirical as biology. This as
practical as..(laughing) no, no, erase that. This is empirical
as the Stock Market anyway. You see, you try to see what
works for you, you know.
I prefer Las Vegas to the Stock Market, but I never go to Las Vegas,
and I never invest in Stocks. I am not inclined to gamble, though
I think I'd have better luck in Las Vegas. Everybody I
know who has tried to beat the Wall Street professionals has
ended up losing their investment. They come around telling me
how much money they made, and what a damn fool I am for not
trading
on the computer all day. Then I see them a year later, and they're
flat on their ass broke, telling me they lost it all.
Just like Las Vegas. The more you win, the more you bet. The
more you bet, the more certain you're going to lose it all eventually.
Everything keeps doubling.
Like Baldy Bacon in Pound's Canto XII:
Also ran up
40,000 bones on his own
Once, but wanted
to "eat up the whole'r Wall Street"
and dropped
it all three weeks later
40 thousand was a lot back then when Pound wrote that. In my
parent's first house they rented, the rent was 48 dollars a month.
Most of my money goes to my rent. I just like living here.
I love the view. I love the Buddha out on the balcony. I
like to sit out on the balcony, look at the Buddha, and think
of the sea.
Then those damn idiots next door put up an American Flag. I

gotta think about that now too. I can't just think of the Buddha
and the ocean. All these domesticated primates who used to
charge into battle, waving the king's umbilical cord; then they
discovered the umbilical cord wore out, so they used a colored
piece of cloth, then they started putting designs on the colored
pieces of cloth, now they've got them hanging out their
windows to keep the terrorists awayor something. . It's
more likely to attract the attention of the terrorists. If
I had to travel [thank god I don't] I would've learned
to do a good Irish dialect. I can't do an English accent
no matter how hard I try. I can almost barely do an Irish
one, at least if I'm not in Ireland. I wouldn't
want anybody to know I'm an American.
I'm sort of a half-time Harry Browne fan. You
know him? He's the Libertarian candidate for president last term.
He has a weekly column he sends out on e-mails. Well, I agree
with him on half and disagree with him on half. Like most
libertarians,
we never agree with one another totally. The greatest
thing he ever wrote was in a recent e-mail, "America fears most
of the world and most of the world fears America." Everybody's
afraid of America, with good cause. In America you're afraid
of everybody else, with good cause. I get more reactionary all
the time. Jefferson and Adams and Washington, Madison, that whole
group seems so much smarter than the people who are running
the government today. Back in the 18th century we had people
smarter than me. Now we've got Bozo. See: every rebel becomes
a reactionary.
Prop: In the Foreword of Quantum Psychology, you write about a
handful of philosophies. Two of which are Operationalism and
Existentialism. As an example, in academia, someone who is heavily
into Existentialism won't really think about looking at phenomena
in Operational terms. Could you explain?
Wilson: Oh, yeah. The point is that Operationalism and
Existentialism
have more in common than they realize. The only reason they don't
realize how much they have in common is because of this goddamn
psychological
warfare going on between the Humanities department and the
Science
department. If they would stop waving their dicks around yelling
"Mine
is bigger than yours" and sit down and talk, essentially they'll
realize existentialism and operationalism are basically the same
method applied to two different areas.
Operationalism is your experience with instruments. Existentialism
is your experience without instruments. They're both dealing
with your experience; they're throwing out all the traditional
abstractions of the Western mind. They have more in common than
they realize.
Prop: In the documentary, Maybe Logic, the subject of
Giordono Bruno came up, and how in his time mysticism and

science
were studied in conjunction, both at the opposite end of the
spectrum as religion. It seemed as if Quantum Psychology might
be doing that as well. Do you feel that Quantum Psychology put
mysticism and science on the same playing field?
Wilson: Yeah, I guess I was trying to do that. I did that in
several of my books. I think. Yeah, Bruno is a really key figure.
Frances Yates, who wrote a couple of books, Giordono Bruno
and the
Hermetic Tradition and The Rosicrucian Enlightenment,
made a pretty good argument that Bruno and John Dee and Johann
Kepler and a few others were all in communication with one another
and were plotting this scientific mystical overthrow of
the Theological systems in Europe.
This became the Rosicrucian Brotherhood, and later became
Freemasonry.
It's a very plausible theory. And whether it's true or not, it
is certainly true that Bruno was burned on 18 counts, not just
for teaching Copernican astronomy, but also for practicing cabalistic
magic and teaching a mystical system of improving your memory.
And, oh yeah, planning secret societies to plot against the Vatican.
With him there was no difference between science and mysticism.
They were both ways to find out what's going on, and both of
them were in opposition to the bureaucrats of the Catholic Church
who had their own dogma, and who insisted that you agree with
them or keep your mouth shut. Even if you keep your mouth shut,
you might be accused of sick salacious thoughts if they found
the wrong books in your house.
Bruno was burned at the stake in 1600. And 1766 or 1765, there
was a guy who was beheaded in France for having Voltaire's books
in his house. And he was also suspected of throwing shit on the
altar of the local church, but they couldn't prove that. All
they could prove was that he had Voltaire's books.
Prop: Speaking of shit, could you talk about this in relation
to the 2nd circuit?
Wilson: Well, when you take your dog for a walk, your dog pees
in not one place but several places. The dog is marking her territory.
There's lots of evidence in the last 30 years by animal researchers
that human beings, like other animals, have territories. Just
walk around and see all the "no trespassing" signs around
your area of the country.
Humans are very territorial animals. That's why Timothy Leary
said, "The only intelligent way to discuss politics is
on all fours." Politics is all about territorial squabbles. Who's
in charge around this habitat? Who is the alpha-male or female?
Elephants are the only mammals I know that have Alpha females,
but most insects do.
With most mammals it's the Alpha males who are in charge. And
who's the Alpha Male? Who gives the orders? Another question

is could we hold this territory? Or would it be better

and expand it and knock off the next tribe and take their territory
too?
And this is an Evolutionary Relative Success. Except that as
technology
advances it's getting more and more dangerous for all
of us. So I believe the higher circuits should be evoked now
at this point in history because it's becoming, as Bucky Fuller
used to say, Omni-lethal. I don't know how many more world wars
we can tolerate. There's going to become a point where we're
going to wipe the human race out if we don't stop war before
that happens.
So we got to learn to do something else with the territorial
squabbling. Well, we can squabble over ideological territories.
Let's make a deal we're not going to shoot each other over this,
we're going have a place like the UN, where everybody can
say "We have the best political system in the world, and the
rest of you guys suck. You don't know shit about politics." Just
so long as they're not shooting one another.
A lot of people get off on that, like New York intellectuals.
They spend all their time insulting one another. This
is known as witty conversation. What it comes down
to is who can dominate the territory with the best verbalisms.
New York intellectuals are the most backward people in the country,
outside of Congress, so if they can learn it, then I think Congress
and diplomats at the UN can learn it. Just sit and argue and
insult each other. And if they learn to use Maybe Logic that
might take 100 years or so they might even make more progress.
Instead of just arguing they might even come to some agreements.
As long as they just agree to stop shooting at everybody. The
rest of us are just innocent bystanders Don't shoot at us.
Prop: It seems that this level of communication is prevalent in
much of our culture.
Wilson: I detest the cruelty of most literary criticism. And this
is not, believe it or not, a personal vendetta. I have gotten,
I would say, about 90 good reviews for every 10 bad ones. Probably
even better than that. I got a lot of rave reviews on all my
books and advertisements and so on. And some of them from
prestigious
places like New Scientist even.
So I'm not complaining for myself. When I read these bitchy, male
and females intellectuals, and the males are bitchier than the
females.when
I read them denouncing one another, in such nasty terms
it reminds me of a bunch of nasty kids in the schoolyard. I
think, jeez, I gave that up when I was about 12 years old. What's
the matter with these people who are still doing it?
I kind of like Norman Mailer for punching Gore Vidal. At least
Mailer brought it down to the level where he made it visible
where it all comes from. It's all macho aggression. I think they

should punch one another more often, and spend less time being
bitchy.
Prop: You've listed Mailer as an influence on your writing
style, in his long sentences which are phenomenal, the way
that he does it and the way you do it, as well..
Wilson: Well, both Mailer and I learned a lot from Faulkner,
and Faulkner learned a lot from Joseph Conrad, so let's give
everybody credit I'm not putting Norman down. Norman
learned a lot from Faulkner, I learned a lot from both
Faulkner and Norman Mailer. I then, very late in life, discovered
Joseph Conrad, who was doing that type of word experiments with
long sentences back around the end of the last century, early
this century.
Joseph Conrad was born speaking Polish, he learned English very
late in life. He wrote all his novels in English. And They're
so beautifully written you can't believe this guy was using English
as a second language. And he was. So was Arthur Koestler, come
to think of it. He's not as great a writer as Conrad, but still
Arthur Koestler was damned eloquent.
It amazes me. I know bits and dabs of several languages. I never
learned any of them well enough to carry on an intelligent
conversation,
much less write a goddamned book in it. People who can do that,
they really leave me flabbergasted. Like people who can play
the Apassionata on the piano. I think that they must have some
gene, I don't even have a cousin of that gene. I have an ear
to listen to it, but I can't envision myself actually
being able to perform it.
Prop: Speaking of writing, in the Illuminatus trilogy you
once described that novel as a journey from paranoia to
metanoia, where you first believe everything is connected but
it's in a bad way. And at the end of the book, you believe
that everything is connected, but it's joyous, like Beethoven's
9th Symphony.
I, for one, after reading that book as a teenager..I kind of
felt that journey from somewhat paranoia to metanoia. But it was
hypnotizing the prose. And I came across one of your interviews
on the Internet, where you had once said that you meant for that
to happen. You wrote the book for that particular purpose, to
kind of hypnotize. I know that most writers try to do that, but
it seemed that the blueprint you set out to do was very successful.
Wilson: Yeah, I feel pretty happy with the results. There was
a woman in North Carolina who wrote for a science fiction fan
zine, who kept criticizing me on the grounds that Illuminatus! drove
several of her friends to commit suicide. She claimed that it
was not a journey from paranoia to metanoia, but that it was a
journey into further paranoia and absolute insanity. I never did
figure out what to say about that. Except that somebody had
committed
a bunch of murders after reading Thomas Wolfe's, The Web

and the Rock.

His name was Harold Unrah. He lived in New Jersey. He
was reading The Web and the Rock , and he came out with
a gun and shot everybody he met on the street until the police
got him. He was the first of the modern spree killers,
as they call it. As distinguished from serial killers who pace
themselves between victims, thinking they are going to get away,
the spree killers are going to kill as many as they can, knowing
they are going to get killed themselves. You can't do a spree
killing and expect to walk away from it.
So, even if I did have a bad affect on some of them, it's not
my fault, any more than it was Thomas Wolfe's fault. And
besides, most serial killers when asked to name their favorite
book, all say the Book of Revelations. Not all of them, but that's
the most popular book with serial killers. You can see why. You
read that stuff Just try getting stoned and reading the Book
of Revelations. You'll have the most paranoid delusions and
hallucinations. No. Don't try it out. Don't try it out
until you are over 60; otherwise you might really flip out
entirely. It's not in the Lutheran Bible, you know. Martin
Luther considered it dangerous lunacy, or something like that;
he cut it out of the Holy Scripture. He thought the Church in
Rome wrote it to drive the suckers crazy. In spite of
that woman in Carolina, I do think Illuminatus! has
helped most of its readers. I get so much positive feedback,
.of course those that did commit suicide have no time to
write back and ask why you drove us to suicide. Let's hope they're
really very few and far between. Let's hope she really
just had a grudge against me, and made it all up. Let's hope.
Prop: Timothy Leary was in jail with Charles Manson, or so he
wrote in a few of his books; and their cells were actually
adjoining, only a wall between them. Do you know of his impressions
of Charles Manson?
Wilson: I don't know if this is one of his books, but he told
me that, "Charlie was the shortest guy in the prison." He
wasn't a midget, but he was 5'2 or 5 foot or something,
very short. At some point in his career he was in and out
of prison all his life, you know, at some point in his career
he realized, that the only way he could survive with that much
disadvantage in lethal combat was to make everybody think you're
so damn crazy they wouldn't want to mess with you. You had to
be so crazy, you were terrifying. So Manson developed
that talent to an extraordinary degree.
I was staying at a really nice hotel in Los Angeles a few years
ago. I was a guest speaker at a Neuro-Linguistic
Programming workshop. I invited Paul Krassner and his wife
over and have lunch on me, in my room. Room service at my
expense.
And, oh wow man. Putting on the dog. Paul used to pay me
$15 an article when the Realist was first started.
And, anyway, Paul told me that hotel was strange cause Charlie
Manson worked as a pimp in the lobby for a couple of years

in between his various prison terms. It made the whole

hotel seem darker and more sinister. And the hotel was
supposedly haunted by the ghost of Clifton Webb.
Prop: Did you ever harbor any thoughts about maybe becoming an
actor?
Wilson: No, but I've often thought I became an actor without
intending to. All my life I've had this fantasy of directing
a movie. The fantasy is stronger now than it used to be.
I never thought of myself as an actor until I saw a video of
a stand-up comedy act I did at a nightclub in San Francisco.
And I thought, "Hey, I'm an actor." Every comedian is an actor
in a sense. That's a role I put on to keep the audience laughing.
So I'm being an actor without even working at it. I don't know
if I can do another role.
Like Woody Allen: he's one of the most innovative people around
as a director and as a writer, but as an actor, he's afraid
to play any role except for the role he played the first time
out, but it was a success. Why is he so afraid to experiment
as an actor? When he's so experimental as a writer and director?
I don't know.
The only role I play is Robert Anton Wilson, the comic philosopher.
Prop: You once said that the law is based on precedents and the
past. With technology rapidly increasing, there seems to be no
real map for the territory that is coming upon us. If there
is going to be some kind of change, socially, how do you
think it is going to occur?
Wilson: I don't know how change is going to occur. In a
rational world there would be enough politicians on this planet,
in each country, that, two or three of them would eventually
stumble upon the World Game Center in Philadelphia, founded
by Buckminster Fuller, and they would study it intelligently,
or assign a team to study it intelligently, and they would take
out a few suggestions that seems useful to them. If this happened
often enough, the world would keep changing in a way that would
be satisfactory to everybody on the planet and hurt nobody.
Somehow or other we are going to stagger blindly until we reach
that point. I just feel that. Just yesterday, my son
sent me a clipping from Space News about life that lives in
rocks and eats rocks. I've often used that as an argument against
Vegetarians, "If you don't want to kill anything, then eat rocks," but
there are organisms that eat rocks it seems. I heard on t.v.,
about two years ago, on the science channel, they found life
in the volcanic ash in the ocean in Krakatoa which is not based
on DNA, it is entirely different form of life, which apparently
arose after the eruption of Krakatoa.
As for the DNA form of life, it has gotten to the top of the
Himalyas, it has gotten to the South Pole, it's all over the
tropics, it's swarming, it takes so many forms. One day

I saw, on the sidewalk in Chicago, a leave of grass poking up

between a crack in the concrete. And, I had acid the night before,
so I was especially sensitive. That leaf of grass suddenly said
to me, "Life is Unconquerable." We always find a way.
And I just feel, somehow or other, life finds a way. I'll
quote Bucky Fuller one more time, "People always do the most
intelligent thing, after they've tried every stupid alternatives
and none of them have worked." That's the cause of my optimism.
Nothing will work except an intelligent program. So eventually,
somehow or other, even people like George Bush not George
BushWell yeah,
even George Bush might eventually, if they appoint him to
a second term, or if he wins an election fairly, and has
a second term, even George Bush might by 2008 he may be
forced to have an original thought. Some of his closest advisors
may force him to consider an original thought. I mean, it could
happen.
In Ezra Pound's Cantos, Canto 85 or 86, somewhere around there,
Pound has the line: "Ike driven to the edge almost of a thought"
If Eisenhower was driven almost to the edge of a thought, maybe
George Bush can be driven there too.
Now this whole thing about being ruled by precedents, I don't
agree. Many flaws in this country come from the fact that we've
got more lawyers in Congress than any other professional group.
We'd be better with a Congress mostly of dentists. All these
dentists read the latest dentistry. They're up to date in at
least one science. I think the whole damn Congress should
be made up entirely of engineers and researchers. But I don't
expect anybody to accept that idea very soon.
We have a government run almost entirely by lawyers. What do
lawyers do? They look up precedent. That means the government
is always governed by the past, never by the present, much less
the possibilities of the future. They're always looking backwards.
A government made up of lawyers is by definition reactionary.
Looking backwards, all the time looking backwards. So I think
we should shoot a couple hundred lawyers every year. Whittle
off the population of lawyers, so that Congress will have to
recruit from other areas or professions.
A couple of astronauts have gotten into Congress. They'll have
to recruit a couple of physicists, a couple of engineers, a
couple of economists who know something.. there are a few
economists who actually know something. a biologist
or two might be very useful. But as long as we're governed by
lawyers.
Every July 4th I invite a bunch of friends over and show them
1776. This time, I dug out my edition of the Letters and Writings
of John Adams and John Quincy Adams to read them a few
selections.
Towards the end of their correspondence, just before they died,

John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson, "The problem, as I see

it, is how to prevent freedom from allowing intelligence and
ambition to accumulate great wealth. And how to keep great wealth
from corrupting Congress." Nobody has solved that. Great wealth
has corrupted the Congress since about the 1890s. It's corrupted
the whole goddamned government by now.
Prop: What was it about the 1890's that caused the change?
Wilson: I think it was the 1890s with the Spanish/American War.
It was the beginning of the American Empire. And also it was
in the 1890s that the Supreme Court ruled a rebuttal in the
jury nullification case. The jury did have the right to nullify,
but the judge had the right to prevent the jury from knowing
that they could nullify. The judge had the right to lie to the
jury if he wanted to. And the judge could even prevent the defense
counsel from telling them they could nullify.
This was in the case involving somebody whom committed the
heinous
crime of forming a labor union, which was illegal in those days.
You know, most people don't realize where jury nullification
comes from. That's how they started modifying it, by saying the
judge could hide it from the jury that they had the right to
nullify, it was over labor unions.
The biggest case in this country was the Peter Zenger case.
30 Years before the American Revolution Zenger committed the
crime of criticizing the government. It was a crime then. And
the jury nullified the law, and let him go. And in England in
1692, William Penn committed the unspeakable atrocious
blasphemous
obscene crime of preaching a religion not that of the Anglican
Church, which was then against the law in England. The ancestors
of our Protestant Fundamentalists in this country were called
dissidents then. The Anglicans didn't want any of the dissidents
or the Roman Catholics preaching in public. William Penn disobeyed
that law, and the jury nullified. That's where religious freedom
starts in the modern world.
Jury nullification has done so much good. And it's getting more
and more on television, on all legal shows. The more and more
they keep bringing the topic up. The more people who know about
it the better, because if you don't know about it going into
court, you're not going to find out about it when you're
in court.
Prop: On your website you have a links page, and one of the links
was for a site called The Molecular Biology of Paradise. That
site definitely goes into the realm of neuroscience and
biotechnology. Do
you know any good introductions, besides your books, for people
who want to learn about themselves in the molecular sense?

Wilson: Well, I'm no expert in that field, but the best book
I can think of to get an overview of, say, understanding

how the basic principles of the so called "mind" and the

so called "body" interrelate is Ernest Lawerence Rossi's
Psychobiology
of Mind-Body Healing. He doesn't go into the chemistry, but
he goes into the names of the chemicals anyway, and neuropeptides
and so on.
Peptides are fascinating. They're just like particles in
quantum mechanics, which act like waves part of the time. Peptides
act like neurotransmitters part of the time, and like hormones
part of the time. That's why they affect both the so-called "mind" and
the so-called "body." Yeah, Rossi's book and the references
in that book make a very good place to start.
Prop: Cool. In your book The New Inquisition, you considered
matter as a metaphor. If you could just kind of elaborate on
that, that would be great.

Wilson: Well in the first place, as Alfred North Whitehead pointed

out Alfred North Fucking Whitehead, one of our most prestigious
philosophers in the last century, and a great mathematician
too he pointed out that you couldn't give anybody a piece
of matter. Just like you can't give them a piece of time or
a piece of space. All you can give them is a piece of matter
on a certain time at a certain space. So space-time-matter can't
be split up into parts.
Korzybski incorporated that into Science and Sanity .
Obviously, you can't leave mind out either, because how
do you know the space-time-matter are there at all unless there
is a mind to observe them. So space-time-matter and mind
make up the four parts of any transaction. So where does that
get us?
Prop: It's good for me.

Wilson: Oh, yeah also, I object to Fundamentalist Materialism.

Although, in some ways I lean very closely to what I'd call a
liberal materialism as a working hypothesis that's safe
most of the time. As long as you're not directed into a
goddamn dogma or an idol. The Fundamentalist Materialists
is what I call these people, this mindset, that takes the materialist
model
and revere it as passionately as a religious conviction. Like
some these goddamn Darwinians I see on television. To
me, they're as embarrassing as the Fundamentalist Christians
they're arguing with. All these Fundamentalist Christians are
yelling, "God created the world in six days." All the Fundamentalist
Materialists as yelling back, "Evolution is not a theory,
it's a proven fact." Well, it's not a proven fact. It's
a hypothesis. It's a very plausible hypothesis, seems
to me the most plausible hypothesis. But you can't confuse
it with a fact. In the first place it can't be tested
in the laboratory, so it can't be refuted.

According to Karl Popper, any theory that can't be refuted is

not part of science. I think evolution did occur. I mean I "believe" in
it. But, jesus, some of these people are so fanatical about
it they sound just like the Christians. It's like the
same guy arguing with his own reflection in the mirror. Or her
own reflection.
I coined the term spokesentities, because I was in a
restaurant in Boulder, and they gave me a card, to evaluate
the food, the service, this that and the other, and they asked
me to evaluate the waitperson. And it asks for comments.
So I wrote in the comments, I wrote, "Waitperson stinks
of human chauvinism. Change it to waitentity at once!" And I
signed it "animal
lover."
And then I started using that, then, and my wife, Arlen,
changed it to waitcritter.. Waitcritter, Congresscritter;
clergycritter I wouldn't want a clergy-critter getting
into my house. And it changes the whole abortion debate.
Now all they can argue about is what point after
the penetration of the ovum by the sperm does the resultant
become a critter? And when does it attain critterhood?
Prop: Your comment about the suggestion that you left for the
restaurant in Bolder reminded me of a character in a few of
your books
called Markoff Chaney. And the way he messed around with the
signs of stores, in his little Anarchist sprees. How did you
come up with that character?

Wilson: Well, believe it or not, the first sign that appeared

in the Illuminatus! is the sign that Simon Moon sees
in a second-hand clothing store. Not second hand, a bargain,
wait, I don't know what the hell kind of clothinganyway
a cheap clothing store in North Clark Street, Chicago. And the
sign said, "No employee may punch the time clock of any other
employee. Any deviation will result in termination. The
MGT."
And I really saw that sign. And I liked the line, "Any deviation
can result in termination" Made me think, you can make
a song out of that. "I got the any deviation can result
in termination blues.Baaa-By" And, somehow the midget
began to appear more and more real in my imagination. Then
he got the name Markoff Chaney, because for years I have been
fascinated by Claude Shannon's mathematical theory of
communication, and the mathematical function called the Markoff
Chain, which played a very crucial role in his equations. So
somehow Markoff Chain became Markoff Chaney, and I started
thinking
of Lon Chaney and Lon Chaney Jr., so Markoff Chaney emerged
out of my memories of Lon Chaney, Lon Chaney Jr., and the
Markoff Chain.
Prop: I heard in a previous interview of yours called "In Defense of

Anarchism," in which you spoke of how Cybernetics will be the

technology, when applied to Industry, that will bring about the
ideas that Anarchists cherish.

Wilson: Most people think Anarchism means throwing bombs at

people
you don't like. That's one school of European Anarchism.
There are a dozen other types of Anarchist thought. And,
it seems to me, the most intelligent type of Anarchism is based
upon the idea that Control and Communication should be
decentralized
as much as possible.
So imagine my excitement when I read the first book on
Cybernetics by Norbert Weiner, a mathematician at MIT.
It was called Cybernetics: Control and Communication in
the Animal and the Machine. And the whole book adds up
to: the more control and communication are decentralized,
the more intelligent the thing will behave whether it's
a machine, an animal, a herd of animals or a society of
human beings.
I regard that as the mathematical proof of Anarchist Theory.
I see us heading there more and more, in spite of the
fact that we seem to be going more and more towards fascism
as a system, as a state. I think as a society, the Internet
is pushing us more and more towards Anarchy with control and
communication
getting more and more decentralized. When Internet covers
the whole planet, and everybody is in not in six-degrees of
separation, but is one degree separated from everybody
else on this planet by cyberspace, I think then we will begin
to act intelligently as a species, but as long as we got these
damn hierarchies where communication comes from the top-down,
never goes up again, we're going to continue to act like the
Frankenstein monster, staggering around killing people by
accident.
You know the nicest thing my wife ever said to me?
Prop: No.

Wilson: "If all men were like you, there would be no need
for Feminism." Every time I think of that, I feel
such a warm glow. She knew me pretty well. She had to,
after 42 years.
Prop: That's quite a complement.

Wilson: The greatest complement I've ever received.

Prop: Well what are your views on Feminism these days?

Wilson: Well, there was a point where the most widely publicized

of the feminists was the nut fringe, and they were talking about
men the way Hitler talked about Jews. I was not at all reticent
or shy about expressing that opinion, and continually pointing
out the similarity there.
They're still around, but they're not as influential as
they used to be. I've always supported Feminism, except for
what the mass media projected in the 60s, 70s.
My wife was a feminist, her mother was a feminist, her
grandmother was a feminist, we raised our daughters
to be feminists. I am a feminist, as far as anybody with
a willy can consider himself a feminist. I enthusiastically
support all the goals of Feminism, except for that dingbat
wing who really does want to get rid of men entirely.
They don't bother me anymore, because the world's going
to get rid of me pretty soon anyway, so I don't care.
But I do think men have certain qualities that should be preserved.
In zoos at least.
Prop: You made an album with a punk group back in the 80's

Wilson: Two punk groups. One in Ireland, one in Germany. The

one in Ireland was called the Golden Horde; the one Germany was
called The Klingons.
Prop: Did you ever listen to them before you recorded with
them?

Wilson: Yeah. I just listened to a CD a week or so ago

that somebody sent me; to write a jacket blurb for, and
I think it was punk rock. I don't know, I don't know all
these maybe it was trash rock, they have all these
different sub-divisions. I didn't like it much, but I
liked parts of it. I gave them a good review anyway for
their jacket. I know how hard it is for young artists.
It's a hard enough struggle, you help where you can.
Prop: Do you ever listen to Hip-hop?

Wilson: Well, some of it is amusing, but I don't think much

of it as music. But as poetry, some of it is pretty good. I
like the lyrics to some of it. Especially the deliberate irregularity
of the meter, I like that. There is nothing more boring than
Tennyson walking up and down 5 steps this way, 5 steps back,
5 steps this way and 5 steps back. Oh my God, stop it man, do
something different for once.
Prop: Speaking about being unconventional by choice, or
marginalized by a center. Your books, most of your books,
it seems, have been published by a small publisher, New
Falcon. And somewhat outside of the academic and mainstream
publishing. What are your views on the publishing Industry?

Wilson: (small titterLong silence) That's the longest

pause you've produced so far. Shall I say what I really
think? WHY NOT? I Don't know, I just feel. If I say what
I really think, I feel I'm violating my Buddhist principles.
Well, let me put it this way, at the age of 70, I'm 71
now, I decided I was not submitting anymore of my books to the
major publishers. All my books now go to New Falcon, despite
the fact that the the major publishers give me bigger advances,
they give me more promotion, I can get bigger pay earnings but
they insist on rewriting my books, and they insist on
five different editors each, each having a hand in it.
"An editor," Gene Fowler said, "is a person who
is convinced the soup doesn't taste right until they've personally
pissed in it."
And I just don't want to go through that again. And I don't
have to. Between what I make from my New York publishers, on
my previous works, and what I make from New Falcon I can
survive. I don't have a family to support anymore. I've
only got to support myself, and pay the rent on this place.
Why should I put up with that crap anymore?
Everything goes to New Falcon, because they print it just the
way I wrote it. If they find a mistake they send me an e-mail
and say this looks like a mistake. And if it is a mistake, I
say, yeah, let's change that. They don't try to
improve my prose. You see I'm a fanatic, I'm an obsessivecompulsive,
about my writing. Everything goes through several drafts, and
I put so much time and attention into it. And to have some person,
whom I consider a bumbling amateur come in with like a butchers
cleaver and start chopping things up to suit their weird tastes.
I can't stand it. I won't put up with it. I don't have to
put up with it, so I won't put up with it. That's a simple
answer without animosity in it, I don't mean any animosity.
If you want to make a lot of money, you gotta learn to
write how the New York publishers want, which means committee
writing. You gotta learn to do it. If you want to be a
writer in Hollywood you gotta learn to work with a committee.
I don't work well with committees. Besides, I spent 20
years of my life working for corporations to support a
large family. A large family by American standards, a
wife, four kids, 9 dogs, I forget how many cats, you know,
and 25 chickens and a pony at one point.
And I had enough of working in a hierarchy. I like my relationship
with New Falcon. I like the books they publish, and that's all
there is to it.
And then there's the lawyers. You know what I
think of lawyers. You heard me on the subject of lawyers already.
Before Everything is Under Control was published, I
spent 3 days on the phone not 24 hours a day, but 3, 5 hour
phone conferences with their lawyers. And it took me most

of the third day to understand that they were not interested

in winning libel suits. They were interested in preventing
libel suits. Which would mean that everything that can
possibly be construed as lible would have to come out.
For a book about conspiracy theory's it instills kind
of a bland flavor to it. Conspiracy theories don't make
sense unless you mention somebody's name. It's like
John Adams says in 1776, "We're having a revolution, goddamnit.
We got to offend somebody." You can't write a book about
conspiracy theories, published by a New York publisher,
if you are going to offend somebody.
Anyway, I don't mean to complain. I'm making enough money
out of that book that it was worth the time and effort. If
I get my energy up, after finishing my current book I'd like
to do a book on conspiracy theories for New Falcon, in
which I wouldn't have to worry about that.
Prop: What book are you working on right now?

Wilson: The Tale of the Tribe. It's about how Joyce

and Pound anticipated Internet. And it's also about how
Fenollosa's theory's about the Chinese language
influenced Pound and made him a prophet of the Internet.
And how Vico's theory about the Latin language influenced
Joyce and made him a prophet of the Internet. And Marshall
Mcluhan, who knew Pound and read Joyce like a maniac. How
Marshall Mcluhan almost brought it all together.
There's no mystery about the Cantos, they are
the tale of the tribe. And the tribe is the whole globe.
It's even more true in Finnegans Wake. Pound
only covers the high lights from the low points. Joyce tries
to cover goddamn near everything. He has a sense of
infinity that beats Escher.
Prop: Have you read Charles Bukowski? What are your impressions
of Charles Bukowski both as a poet and a writer?

Wilson: No I have not read Charles Bukowski.

Prop: Never came across any of his books?

Wilson: No. I have lived 71 years, in which there are

365 days in each year, and only 24 hours in each day.
My areas of ignorance are absolutely staggering. And I'm
more and more aware of that, because my knowledge of most
of the subjects I've written about is either 5 years or
20 years out of date now. So if I ever did another lecture
tour, I'd have to spend a month before the tour doing
research on-line to try to figure out what is scientific
matter that is still accepted.
Prop: Bukowski seems to have a large influence on younger

generations.
Being a writer from LA, and writing a movie called Barfly,
he seems to be, what some people would call the voice of LA.
But you
may have a different opinion than that.

Wilson: Well, when I lived in Dublin, I thought, "This is

great. This is a James Joyce theme park." When I moved to
Los Angeles, I began to feel it was a Raymond Chandler theme
park. I never read Bukowski, but if I read Bukowski I might
start thinking
of it as a Bukowski theme park. Right now LA is still, in
my head, a Raymond Chandelier theme park. And everything from
Boston to Providence is a George V. Higgins theme park. Have
you ever read any of George V. Higgins?
Prop: No.

Wilson: You should.

Prop: What's one of his books?

Wilson: The best one to start with is Outlaws . It's

about revolutionaries, the CIA, cops, lawyers, prosecutors,
and he does them all very well. He, himself, was for 15
years a prosecutor on the staff of the Attorney General
of Massachusetts. Then he spent 15 years as a criminal
defense attorney. He spent 15 years putting them away,
then 15 years trying to keep the state from putting them
away. He knows it from all angles. And he knows a lot
about Massachusetts politics, and New England politics. And
a lot about the Banking Industry. He is not only a very funny
writer, with the greatest ear for dialogue of any American writer
I've ever read, but he's alsohe's a better critic of
corporatism than Noam Chomsky. He brings it down to the daily
life level, you know.
Prop: Speaking about a great mind, switch gears to Fuller.
He invented the World Game. Suppose he said that, the
knowledge is the most important thing about our resources,
and that you can starve in a cornfield. If you don't know
how to use the corn.

Wilson: He said that? He certainly said things like that. I

know I've said that. I thought I invented phrasing it that
way, maybe I was quoting Fuller and didn't even realize it.
That happens sometimes.
Every time one of my books came out, my wife would get slightly
indignant on reading and finding phrases of hers in there without
credit. Sometimes I forget where I hear things, you know.
Prop: For myself, just to clarify what Fuller spoke of in terms

of utilizing natural resources, Fuller said both Marxism and

Capitalism was based on the theory of economics put forth by
Malthus. How does Fuller get beyond that viewpoint of economics?

Wilson: Well it's very simple. Malthus assumed he

was an employee of the British East India Company he
observed that population was increasing faster than known
resources. So he assumed that there would be perpetual
warfare over the resources, and most of the population
would perish by starvation or other means, because they
weren't smart enough or cunning enough or ruthless enough
to get their share or more than their share. Then Fuller
pointed out that resources do not exist apart from us.
Resources exist when the human mind sees how to use something.
Resources accepted by statisticians and the economists have
increased
steadily since the time of Malthus. Resources are increasing
faster than population actually. This fact is hidden from us
by the goddamn banking system, which has inserted a bookkeeping
system into the process, whereby every exchange has a interest
charge
on it, whether you know it or not. And most of the profits are
going to the banks, where as they should be going to the whole
population at large, because the credit is not created by
the banks, it is created by everybody who's working.
Even me even people who are just working at putting
words on paper are creating value. And banks aren't creating
a damn thing. They're just charging usury at every
step of the way.
Fuller agreed a lot with Ezra Pound A lot of people think
Pound was an Anti-Semitic fascist, period, and that
sums up Ezra Pound, but it doesn't. That's one cranky
part of Ezra Pound, part time. There's a lot more to Pound
than that.
Prop: Virtual Reality. In one of your interviews that I
read, you mentioned how the possibility for Virtual Reality
to experience non-Euclidean space. Do you recommend any
books on the subject, in terms of becoming more acquainted
with Virtual Reality?

Wilson: The Age of Spiritual Machines,

by Ray Kurzweil

The interview was winding down. Wilson had expressed earlier

that he had company coming over, and he wanted to rest up before
they arrived. I was satisfied with what I had, and was ready,
but not completely willing wrap it up. Bob had worked his magic
yet again. In the course of two hours I'd sat and
listened to a man who has truly attained deep wisdom about life
and all of us circus freaks in it. Many times throughout our

chat, I was convinced that this is the smartest man in

America. His thread of logical discourse was just as adroit
as anything I had heard in any college philosophy course. The
only difference was that this guy was as funny as George Carlin.
I was beginning to think to myself that I was in the presence
of a
sage.
I was sitting across from someone like Confucius or Lao Tzu,
when not so suddenly, Bob leans disproportionately on one side
of his couch cushion and performs what Carlin termed
"the one-cheek sneak". I'm not sure if he thought, some other
object in his apartment might have momentarily distracted me,
allowing him to believe that he could let one by without my noticing.
Or whether he just didn't care if I might be offended by this
organic punctuation mark endowed within our bodies by Nature's
God. Either way he seemed slightly bemused when I looked over
at him after his fart.
"Oh, You heard that?" the old man said to me.
Coming from a fart friendly family myself, I tend not to get squeamish
by such expulsions of methane from another's buttcheeks,
occasionally I find it hilarious. Especially, when the
dealer of the contaminated air molecules is able to play it
off with wry dry surprise or feigned innocence. So I was not
offended, it actually sparked a new conversation. He told a
joke about a man farting in a doctor's office, which reminded
me of a book Benjamin Franklin wrote called Fart Proudly. Being that
he just did, Wilson commented that he read the book.
He continued," Mark Twain wrote a book about farting
too, called 1602 or 1600, I forget which date. It was about a
bunch of Elizabethan writers having a meeting and one of them
farts. Then they all start arguing about who let that fart? And
they all describe it in terms of their own vocabulary. Twain
has a great skill at imitating styles. Shakespeare sounds like
Shakespeare. Bacon sounds like Bacon. Raleigh sounds like Raleigh.
It's really
very funny."

Like

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2005

AMYSTERYWITHOUTA SOLUTION:
ROBERTANTONWILSON
byJesseHicks
TheIlluminatus!Trilogyseemstokeepfindingnewgenerationsoffanssinceitspublication.How
wouldyoudescribeittosomeonewho'syettoreadit,andwhatdoyouthinkexplainsits
enduringappeal?
Race

Iliketocallitguerillaontology.Ifpeoplelookblank,Iexplainthatit'saZen
riddleintheformofadetectivestory.Inotherwords,amysterywithouta
solution.Whatkeepsitinprint?Iimaginethateverygenerationafewclearthinkingpeoplediscoverthatthegovernmentsthatruleusjustdonotmake
senserationally.Andthentheyhearaboutthisweirdbookthatknocksdown
everyattemptatareasonableexplanationofhowthisplanetoperatesand
proves1001waysthatonlyinsanitydoesexplainit.Incidentally,asifto
provethis,saleshaveimprovedeveryyearsinceGeorgeBushgotappointed
president.Sanitycannotfathomsuchasinisterjoke,butIlluminatusbuffs
can.

Letters
Shorts
Features
Departments
Reviews
Gallery

HowdoestheworldofIlluminatus!comparetothe"real"worldthesedays?Doweliveina
Wilsoniansatire?

I'dliketothinkso.TheonlyalternativewouldholdthatweliveinaKafka
allegory.Sincemy"paranoia"containsmorehumorthanhis,Iappealtoaless
morbidaudience.

DownloadthePDF

Kafka's"Thereishope,butnotforus,"definitelyappealstoadarkersenseofhumor.Howdoyou
maintainasenseofoptimism?

PessimismseemstomealuxuryIcan'tafford.Forinstance,atagefour,I
becamecrippledwithpolioforthefirsttime,andgotcured,ormostlycured,
bytheKennymethod.Pessimismjustwouldnothavehelpedatanystagein
mytherapy.Wedon'twalkonourlegsbutonourwill,astheSufissay.

Deekisdead
Questions,comments?
Clickhere

At69,thedamagedmusclesquitonmeandIgotcrippledasecondtime.Once
again,pessimismandwhiningwouldnothavehelped.
Mysecondpartialcureproceedednicelyforfouryears--untillastmonth,
whenIsuddenlylandedonthefloorandstayedthereconsciousbutunableto
moveamuscle,for30hoursbeforemydaughterfoundmeandcalledan
ambulance.
PessimismhasgreatvalueifyouwantthepraiseofNewYorkintellectuals,
butIprefertofightmybattlesratherthanwhineaboutthem.I'llprobably
nevergetreviewedinthebontonliteraryjournals,butImightgetintothe
GuinnessBookofWorldRecordsasthefirstmantolearntowalkfourtimes.
YoumentionedtheKennyMethodforpoliotreatment.Howdidyourearlyencounterwithan
"unorthodox"cureleadyoutoquestion"orthodoxy"?

Well,Igrewupwithhardevidence--everystepItook--thattheKenny
methodworked,whilealltheExpertscontinuedtodenounceherasaquack
andacharlatan.ThatdidnotencourageardentfaithinExperts....
AnddidthatleadintoMaybeLogic?

Partially,butitcouldhaveledtoasingleheresy--theKennymethod--ina
brainotherwisestillconfinedtodogmatism.
Iknowmanypeoplelikethat--theybelieveinoneunorthodoxidea,but
remainstuckineither/orlogic.MaybeLogiccamefromreadingsome
scientificradicals[JohnvonNeumann,AnatoleRapoportandAlfred
Korzybski],plussomeBuddhists.

ThatincludesvonNeumann'sthree-valuedlogic[true,false,maybe],
Rappoport'sfour-valuedlogic[true,false,indeterminate,meaningless],
Korzybski'smulti-valuedlogic[degreesofprobability]andalsoMahayana
Buddhistparadoxicallogic[it"is"Ait"is"notAit"is"bothAandnotAit"is"
neitherAnornotA].But,asanextraordinarilystupidfellow,Ican'tusesuch
systemsuntilIreducethemtotermsasimplemindlikeminecanhandle,soI
justpreachthatwe'dallthinkandactmoresanelyifwehadtouse"maybe"a
lotmoreoften.CanyouimagineaworldwithJerryFalwellhollering"Maybe
Jesus'was'thesonofGodandmaybehehatesGaypeopleasmuchasIdo"--or
everytowerinIslamresoundingwith"There'is'noGodexceptmaybeAllah
andmaybeMohammedishisprophet"?
HowdoesQuantumPsychologyofferacounter-viewpointtothatkindofanxiousgraspingatwhat
you'vecalled"fictionalcertainties"?

QuantumPsychoffersavarietyoflinguisticreformsthatconditionthemind
againstprematureclosure.SomeofthesetechniquescomefromGeneral
Semantics,somefromNeuro-LinguisticProgramming,andsomefrom
Buddhism.Thesetechniquesusedconsistentlyoveraperiodoffiftyyearshave

About

October

mademe,Idaresay,alotlessstupidandalotlessfrightenedthanmy
conditioninthe1950s.Thosenotasdumbasmecanlearnevenfaster.
Whatdoyouthinkexplainsthecurrentresurgenceof"faith-based"worldviews?

Therobberbaronsimported"cheaplabor"fromEuropeinthelate19th
Century.Inotherwords,theyfloodeduswithanoceanofignorantand
superstitiouspeople,whocouldnotunderstandresearch-basedorganizations
butformedanidealmarketforfaith-basedconartists.
Doyouseeanydeeperexplanationbehindit,otherthanfaith-basedworldviewsbeingthe
dominantmodeofthinkingforthosecurrentlyinpower?

Theaccelerationfactorininformationsystems[documentedbyKorzybskiand
Shannon]meansthatsocialchangeshappenfasterandfasterevery
generation.PeoplenottrainedinMaybeLogicfeelmoreandmoreconfused,
whichleadstoanxiety,whichmeansthey'llswallowanylineofhogwashifit
promisessomecertitudeinaworldtheycan'tunderstand.
HowdoestheGunsandDopePartyfitintoAmericanpolitics?

Ourplatformhas3majorplanks:
1.Freeaccesstogunsforthosewhowantthemnogunsforcedonthosewho
don'twantthem[Quakers,Amish,pacifistsetc.]2.Freeaccesstodrugsfor
thosewhowantthemnodrugsforcedonthosewhodon'twantthem
[ChristianScientists,homeopaths,Naturalhygienistsetc.]3.Equalrightsfor
ostriches.Forfurtherdetailsseehttp://www.gunsanddope.com/
DoesitseemtoyouthatothercountrieshavemorefullyembracedideaspresentinQuantum
PsychologythanhasAmerica?

Iwouldnotclaimthat,butthecivilizedworldingeneralhasshownmuchless
hostilitytoresearch-basedgroupsandhasnoBush-stylerevivaloffaith-based
groups.
Whatdoyouseeforthefuture,intheshortterm?Inthelongterm?

Intheshortterm,morepowerbyfaith-basedorganizations.Inthelongterm,
theeventualtriumphofresearch-basedorganizations.Inquisitions,whether
bypopesorpresidents,onlyslowprogressinlimitedareas.Theyneverstopit.
Stem-cellresearch,forinstance,stillmovesalongrapidly,overseasinthe
civilizedworld.
InRealityisWhatYouCanGetAwayWith,youwrote,"Therightwingwillhavenightmaresin
thelate'90sthatwillmakethe62Satanismpanicsof1982-1993seemsedatebycomparison."
Howmuchofthecurrentpoliticalenvironmentwouldyouattributetotheinevitableright-wing
responsetothatnightmare,andhowmuchto"FutureShock"ingeneral?

"Futureshock"startedwiththefirststoneaxe,butduetotheacceleration
factor,itdiscombobulatesmorepeopleeverydecade.Whenthecivilizedworld,
whereresearch-basedorganizationswillsoonstartcuringeverythingwith
stemcells,ourfaith-basedorganizationswillwanttheU.S.todeclarewaron
damnneareverybody.

Archive|About|Contact
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8November,1996

ClickHEREfortheinterviewinRealAudio

Nardwuar:Whoareyou?
RobertAntonWilson:Okay,ImRobert
AntonWilsontomyreaders,BobWilsonto
myfriends,and"thatoldcrank"tomy
neighbors.
RobertAntonWilson,areyoua
witch?
Wasthat"awitch"or"abitch?"
Awitch!RobertAntonWilson.
Whichkindofwitch?

Youknowawitch.YouvedoneafewreadingsinVictoria.
ThatslikethewitchingcapitalofCanada.Areyouawitch,or
didyougravitatethere?
IhavebeenawitchIprobablystillamawitch.
WhathappenedtoTimothyLearyshead?
Well,therearevariousversionsofthat,theacceptedversionisthathegave
uponcryonics,andhadhiswholebodycremated.Buttheresamythora
legendgoingaround,orarumourthatmaybetrue,forallIknow.Andthat
wasallputontopreventtheauthoritiesfrominterferingwithhisplansto
commitsuicidewhenthecancergottoopainful,andhavehishead
preserved,andsoactuallyitwasonlyhisbodythatwascremated.The
headwaspreserved,secretly.IdontknowwhetherthatstrueornotasI
say,itsarumour.Theresanotherrumourgoingabout,thattheFed.'shave
seizedhisashesbecauseofahighqualityofcontrolledsubstancesinhis
ashes,andnobodyknowswhatthestreetvaluemightbe.
So,whereisHitlerscock?
Whereswhat?
WheresHitler'scock?IsHitlerscockrightnexttoTimothy
Learyshead?Wheredotheyhidethesethings,RobertAnton
Wilson?WheresHitlerscock?WheresTimothyLearyshead?
Well,IdontknowwhereLearysheadishidden.Hitlerscock,Iassume,
wentupinthebunkerwiththerestofHitler.
RobertAntonWilson,areyouaCIAagent?
Ahh,ifIwere,Iwoulddenyit.
Areyouanagentofdisinformation?
Absolutely,andinformation.
Sohowcomeyouhaventbeenknockedoff?Doesntthatlead
tothefactthatyouareaCIAagent,orthatyouareanagent
ofdisinformation,RobertAntonWilson?
Well,ItellyouthatMaeBrussellaccusedmeofbeinganagentofthe
Rockefellerconspiracy.AndIconfessedthatitwastrue,andIthatmy
cellarisstackedhighwithgoldbarsthatarebroughteverymonth,byDavid
Rockefeller,personally.AndImsure,upuntilherdeath,thatshewent
aroundshowingthatlettertoprovetopeoplethatIhadconfessed.People
whowanttobelievesuchthingsareperfectlyfreetobelievethem.Woof,
woof,woof.
RobertAntonWilson,youmentionedMaeBrussell.Areyou
awareoftheworkofDaveEmory,herkinddevotedfollower,
causehedoesashow,everyweekonCiTRRadioin
Vancouver.
Yeah,hedoesashowheretoo.Ilistenoccasionally.Onenight,hegotso
tangledinhisconspiracytheorythatIthoughtthathewasaccusingthe
UnificationChurchofmastermindingthebombingofPearlHarbour.AndI
askedmywife,"IshereallysayingthattheUnificationChurchbombed
PearlHarbour?"Shesaid,"No,butitisalmostthattangled!"

AndheshereeverySundaynight,onCiTRRadioin
Vancouver,10:00pm-12:00am.Butyourerighthere,right
nowonCiTRRadio.Youare,indeed,RobertAntonWilson,
arentyou,RobertAntonWilson?
Well,thatswhatIclaim,othersclaimthatImanandroidthattheCIAput
inmyplaceaftertheymurderedme.ButIclaimthatImstillRobertAnton
WilsonandnotanandroidimpersonatingRobertAntonWilson.
Robert,ImcontinuallyfascinatedwithTimothyLeary.Washe
aCIAagent?DidtheCIAsupplyhimwithLSD?DaveEmory
andMaeBrussellgoonallaboutthat,andinthebookAcid
Dreams,theresmentionsofitaswell:TimothyLearybeinga
partoftheCIA,andhavingtheLSDsuppliedtohim.
Well,IrememberoncewewerebothspeakingatNYUaboutvirtualreality
softwareandhardware,andsomegroupputoutaleaflet,outside,saying
thatLearyandIwerebothCIAagents,andIshowedittoTim,becauseI
knewthiswouldamusehim.Andhesaid,"Gee,Iwishthiswaslegal
evidence,IcouldmaketheCIApaymeforthelast18years."But,ifhewas
anagent,hewasreallyasucker,becausehenevercollectedapennyfrom
them.
RobertAntonWilson,youdontreallybelieveordenystuff.
Youkindalook"inbetween"there.Youdontbelieveityou
dontdenyit.Youbelievethatsomewherebetweenbeliefand
denialisthetruth.Isthattrue?
Well,mygeneralfeelingisthatmostoftheworldfallsinthecategory
between100%provenor100%disproven.Andweliveamongmillionsand
millions,orasCarlSaganwouldsay,millionsandmillionsofmaybes,and
onlyafewdefiniteyessandnoshereandthere.Andtheyreusuallyonly
temporary.
WhyshouldeveryoneknowaboutWilliamReich?Whowas
WilliamReich?WhatshouldpeopleknowaboutWilliamReich?
ItsactuallyWilhelm,whichinfluencedhispsychologyprofoundly.Imagine,
growingupinacountrywithanabsolutemonarchandhavingthesame
nameashim,andalastnamethatmeans"state"inGerman.WilhelmReich
itslikehewasnamedafterthestateandheadofstate.Hewasa
psychologistwhodevelopedtheoriessoradicalthat,likeLeary,helandedin
jail.HefaredevenworsethanLearytheynotonlythrewhiminjail,they
burnedallofhisbooks,too.Hewasthrownoutofthepsycho-analytical
societyforbeingtooMarxistthrownoutoftheCommunistpartyforbeing
tooFreudianthrownoutoftheSocialistpartyforbeingtooanarchistic
thrownoutofSwedenfordoingthekindofresearchthatmadeMastersand
Johnsonfamoustwentyyearslater,buthedidittwentyyearstoosoon,and
theworldwasnotreadyforit.Then,hecametothiscountrywherehewas
throwninjailasacancerquackforpublishingresultsinwhichhedidnt
claimtocurecanceratallbutsaiditmightbeusefulanditwasworthyof
"furtherinvestigation."Andanybodywhomadethatmanyenemiesmust
havehadsomethingimportanttosay.IthinkthatReichsbooksarevery
important,Imgladthattheyrebackinprintagain.
DidhereallybattleUFOsinthedesertwithanorgonegun?
Hethoughthedid.Thatsthestageofhiscareerthatsthemost
controversial,butmypersonalopinionisthatatveryendReichdidturn
paranoid.Somebodywhodbeenpersecutedaspersistentlyashehadfora
periodofthirtyyearsbegantoseepersecutioneverywhere,andIthinkthat
hewentovertheedge.Heimaginedthathewasbeingpersecutedfrom
outerspaceaswellasfromthisplanet.
RobertAntonWilson,howcouldanorgonegunthwartaUFO?
Whatwastheideabehindthat?
HebelievedUFOsweresomekindofliving...hehaddifferenttheoriesabout
theUFOsbutatonepointhebelievedthatUFOswerelivingmatter...living
energyformthatwashostiletoorgone,whichisthelifeenergy.Andits
sortaliketheUFOsweresortalikethekindofthingthatturnslandinto
desertsandpeopleintooldcrabsorcranks.
Whywerepeoplesoscaredoforgoneresearch?
Well,partlyifReichwasright,almostmosteverydoctorandpsychiatristin
theworldhasgottogoback,andstartoverandstudyReich,andgiveup
theirpresentideas,whichnobodylikestohear.Andtheotherpartisthathis
theoriesareveryradical,sexually.Hebelievedinextremesexualfreedom,
notrampantpromiscuity,butanextremerighttochoose.Andtotal
abolitionoflawsthattrytogovernpeoplessexualbehavior.
RobertAntonWilson,whofliesUFOs?Theressomepeople
likeBillLynn,whobelievethatsecretserviceagentsareflying
theseUFOswithstolenTeslatechnology,thatitisntactually
aliens,itsactuallystolenTeslatechnologyflyingtheseUFOs,
andtheresnoaliensatall.Whatdoyouthinkaboutthat?

Well,mytwofavouritetheoriesaboutUFOsarethePersongertheory.
PersongerisaCanadianwholivesinOttawa,abehaviouralscientist.That
meanshedoesntwanttobecalledapsychologist.Persongeroffersthe
modelthatUFOsareenergyfluctuationswhichcausepoltergeist
disturbances,flyingfurniture,electricalmalfunctions,carmotorsstalling,
televisionsgoingonandoff,refrigeratorsturningonandoff...thatkindof
thing.Strangelightszoomingaroundandifyougettooclose,italtersyour
brainwaves,andcausesyoutohallucinate.Thattheoryseemsvery
plausible,andaccountsforalotofUFOs.ButtheresalsoatheoryIlike,by
JohnKiel,whichsaysthattheyreanintelligentenergyform,thats
coexistedwithusfromthebeginningoftime,andhasbeenplayinghead
gameswithus.Theyarethesameones,asKielseesit,whopassthemselves
offasangelsanddemonsinthemiddleages,andasdeadrelativeswhen
spiritualismwaspopular,andnowtheyrepassingthemselvesoffasextraterrestrials,buttheyreanenergyformthatisveryindifferenttohuman
beings,butlovesplayinggamesanddeceivingus.Thosetwomodelsmake
moresensetomethantheideathattheyreallhallucinationsortheidea
thattheyrespaceships.
WhatdoyouthinkaboutTeslatechnology?Because,thisguy,
BillLynn,believesthattheresgoingtobeaninvasiononJuly
5th,1998.Doyoubelievethattheworldisgoingtoendon
July5th,1998,astheteachingsofWilliamCooper,William
Cooper,RobertAntonWilson,havetaughtus?Doyoubelieve
thataliensaregoingtocomeonJuly5th,1998,butitisnt
actuallyaliens,itsactuallythegovernmentflyingtheseUFOs,
andthegovernmentisgoingtoroundusup.
Well,accordingtotheChurchoftheSubgeniusitisJuly5th1998.Butitsthe
XistsfromplanetXwhoarecoming,andeverybodywhoistithingaway
one-tenthoftheirsalaryeverymonthtotheChurchoftheSubgeniuswillbe
pickedupbythepleasureshipsofthelovegoddessandtakentotheplanetof
immortality,andeverybodywhoisnottithingtotheChurchofthe
Subgeniuswillbedestroyedbyatomicdeathrays,andthatsknownasthe
rupture,andthattheoryisjustasplausibletomeastheoneyoumentioned.
BecauseTeslatechnologywassaidbythisguy,namedBill
Lynn,tohaveforcedHitlerintoWorldWarII.Like,Hitlerwas
bribedtoenterWorldWarII.And,well,actually...isHitler
dead,RobertAntonWilson?
Well,ifhesnot,hesabout106,now,andprobablyfairlyharmless.Ive
neverheardofanybody106whocoulddomuchseriousharm.
WhendidHitlerdie?
Ithinkhediedinthebunkerin1945.Imsorry,Imratherconservative
aboutthatissue.Iagreewiththemajorityofhistorians.
So,youdon'tthinkthathewasataWorldsFair,in
Albuquerquein1967withEvaBraun?
Nono,thatwasLeeHarveyOswald.
RobertAntonWilson,whatamIgonnadoifmydadsa
Mason?WhatamIgonnadoifIsuspectmydadisaMason?
WhatshouldIdo?
Well,whatdoyouwanttodo?
Well,howcanIspotaMason?Youknow,whatshouldIdoif
mydadsaMason?WhatshouldIdo,RobertAntonWilson?
Well,Iwouldntdoanythingaboutit.Askhimifyoucanjoin.
HowcanyouspotaMason,ifpeopleouttherearewondering
whataMasonlookslike?Youknow,arethereany
characteristics,forthelistenersoutthereinRadioland?How
canpeoplespotMasons?
Well,theyallhavethreeeyes.Thethirdeyeisgenerallyclosed,butifyou
seesomebodywhoseforeheadisveryfurroweditsnotfromworriesits
becausetheyretryingtoconcealtheirthirdeye.
WhyhavepeoplealwaysblamedtheMasons?Theyhave
threeeyes!Everyoneskindateasingthem!Comeon,theyare
niceguys.Imean,Mr.CunninghamonHappyDayswearinga
Fez.Whatdidhedowrong?
Idontknow.AsfarasIcanmakeout,mostoftheanti-Masonic
propagandaintheworldemanatesfromextremelyparanoidright-wing
Christianswhoareparanoidabouteverybodyelse,notjusttheMasons.
Isthereanybodywhosnotmadatyou?
Yeah,Ivegotthousandsandthousandsoffriendsandfansalloverthe
world.
HaveyoudoneanythingtogetMasonsmad?

No.IvenevergottenanastyletterfromaMason.Ivegotlotsofnasty
lettersfromfundamentalistChristiansandfromfundamentalistmaterialists
andfromMarxists.
IwaslookingthroughsomenewsgroupsontheInternetand
someChristianguyhadaquotefromyou...hewasquoting
you.HewasquotingRobertAntonWilson.Afundamentalist
Christianwasquotingyou!
Ohyeah,alotofthemhavebeenplagiarizingmeforyears,withoutquoting
medirectly.Alotofthemhavefoundthatselectivepassagesfrommy
books,outofcontext,areveryusefultothem.Idontmindthatatall,I
regardthatasamarvelousjoke.
HaveyoueversnuckintoaMasoniclodgeandmaybeseena
Masonsacrificingarabbit?
IvebeeninMasoniclodges,IvespokenatMasoniclodges,butIvenever
seenanyonesacrificingarabbit.Iveneverseenanyonecopulatingwitha
goat.Idontbelieveanyofthoselegends.
AreyoujealousthatMasonshavesecretplacestomeet,like
atDisneyland?Isntthereasecretplacehiddenabovethe
PiratesoftheCarribean?Theyhavealittleclub,The33Club,
wheretheMasonshangout,RobertAntonWilson?
Ithinkthateveryonehastherightoffreeassociation.Imagainstforcing
peopletoopentheirdoorsandletanybodyinthatswhereImmostatodds
withtheliberalsinmycountry.Ithinkthateverybodyhastherightto
associatewithwhotheywanttoassociatewith.
IsthereasecretclubatDisneylandthatyouareawareof
RobertAntonWilson?
AllIknowaboutDisneylandisthataboveSnowWhitescastle,Disneyis
supposedtobecryogenicallypreserved,inaspecialroomaboveSnow
Whitescastle.IhaveafriendwhogoestoDisneylandeveryNewYears
Eveanddropsacid.Andwhenhereachesthepeak,hegoesandtalksto
MickeyMouseaboutallofhisproblems,andMickeyneverfails.Mickey
alwaysgiveshimthecorrectanswertoguidehimforthenextyear.Hesthe
onlymanIknowofwhosegodisvisible,tangibleandgivesclear
unambiguousanswers.Hesahappyman.IwishIhadareligionthat
workedthatwell.
YoureRobertAntonWilson,arentyou,RobertAntonWilson?
UnlessImanandroidimpersonatinghim.
Whatsbeengoingonwithspacemigration?Thespace
migrationSMILEscenario.Hasanythingnewbeenhappening
withthat?
Well,yeah,thereremoreandmorepeoplewhohavespenttimeinthat
spacestationupthere.Werelearningmoreandmoreabouthumanbeings
inspace.AndwerehavingalotofMarsprobesgoingoffinthenearfuture.
WhatdoyouthinkaboutalloftheMarsprobesblowingup...
youmentionedthefaceonMars?
ItsMosesHorowitz...
Yeah,thefaceonMars.GuyslikeRichardHoaglandbelieve
thattherearegiantcitiesmadeofglassonMars,big
skyscrapers.Andthesamethingonthemoon,althoughthe
glassisnowbroken.AndthattheMartianmoon,Phobos,is
reallyagianthollowspaceship,andeverytimeaprobegoes
nearMars,probesgetblownaway,becausetheygettoo
closetoPhobos.Areyouawareofthis,RobertAntonWilson?
ImustpreferProfessorFinnigans,whoIreallythinkhasreally
demonstratedthatthefaceonMarsisMosesHorowitz.
Doyoubelievethatmanlandedonthemoon?
Uh,yeah,NeilArmstrong,a33rddegreeMason.Isntthatafunny
coincidence?
Butwasntthemoonlandingfaked?Faked!InArea51!Robert
AntonWilson,dontletusdown!
ItwasntthemoonlandingthatwasfakeditwasWorldWarII.WorldWar
IIneverhappened.ItwasaconspiracybetweenGhandi,representingthe
IIluminationtheEarthplane,andMadameBlovatskirepresentingthe
IIluminationtheastralplane.Andtheyputeverybodyinadeeptranceand
showedoldfilmsofWorldWarI,andeverybodythoughtthattherewasa
newWorldWar.Thatwastoscareusintonothavinganymoreworld
wars.So,therevisionistswhoclaimthattheholocaustneverhappened,
theyonlygotpartofthepicturetheyarenotskepticalenough.Notonlydid
theHolocaustneverhappen,thewholedamnwarneverhappened.There
wasneveraHitleroraWinstonChurchill.Itwasallfaked.

AndtheopinionsexpressedarethoseofRobertAntonWilson,
andonlyRobertAntonWilson.RobertAntonWilson,doesJohn
TravoltabelievethatGodisareptilebrain,directingusfrom
thefarsideofthegalaxy?
No,JohnTravoltabelievesthatGodisadeadmanburiedatthebottomof
thePacific,namedL.RonHubbard.
ButisntthatwhattheScientologistsbelieve,thatGodisa
giantreptilebrain,directingusfromthefarsideofthegalaxy,
andtheyretotallyfrightenedbyProzac?Whyare
ScientologistssofrightenedbyProzac,RobertAntonWilson?
Well,everytimeTravoltawinsanaward,whichhehasadistressinghabitof
doinglately,becausehesagoodactor.Hekeepswinningawards.
EverytimehegetsuphethanksL.RonHubbardhedoesntthankthereptile
brainontheothersideofthegalaxy.SoIthinkL.RonHubbardishisgod.
DidL.RonHubbardevergetinterviewedbyyou,whileyou
wereworkingforPlayboy,RobertAntonWilson?Didyouever
makecontact,youandL.RonHubbard?
No,thankGod,IveneverhadanycontactwithhimandIvehadaslittle
contactaspossiblewithanymemberofScientology.
So,RobertAntonWilson,whowillspotthewidowsson?
Whatsthenewinquisition?RobertAntonWilson?
Ifindsomeofyourquestionsprettyhardtofield.
Ah,speakingoffields,asW.C.Fieldssaid,"Sometimesyou
havetotakethebullbythetailandlookthefactsintheface."
Well,sincetheVancouver-basedseriesTheX-Fileshasbeen
mentioning"23"quitefrequently,hasthisincreasedyourbook
sales,atall?
IwontknowuntilIgetmynextroyaltiesstatement,butIvenoticedhow
muchtheyreborrowingfromme,buttheyrenottheonlyones.Imthe
mostfrequently"borrowedfrom"authoraround,Isometimessuspect.
So,yourenotapaidcriticalconsultantforTheX-Files?
Oh,no,theyjustreadmybooksandusewhatevertheycangetawaywith.
Howdoyoufeelaboutsomebodyrippingyouofflikethat?Are
theydoingagoodjobrippingyouoff?Couldtheydobetter?
Well,hell,theyrenotasfunnyasIam.Theonlythingthattreatsthese
thingsashumourouslyasIdoinmybooksisthefilmRepoMan.Thatsgot
everythingTheX-Fileshas,andpluscomedy.Which,Ithinkyoucouldsay
ofmybooks...havingeverythingTheX-Fileshas,pluscomedy!
Haveyoubeenincontactwiththe"Hef"atall?Whatwasit
likehanginoutwithhimintheseventies?Haveyouhadany
contactwithhimsincethen?Didyouhangoutwithhiminthe
70s,whenyouwereaneditoratPlayboy?
Well,no.Imethimtwoorthreetimes.Theonlytimeheeversaidanything
thateverstuckwithmewas,"Man,whatacrazyshirt."Iwaswearinga
yellowsilkshirt.[laughs]Andthatsthemostintimatecommunicationwe
everhadtogether.Sorry!
DidyoueverhangatthePlayboyMansion?Likeinthehottub
withJamesCaanatyourside,smokinaniceone?
Ivisitedthemansionafewtimes,butInevergotintothehottub.
WasJamesCaaninthehottub?
Idunno.[laughs]IwentthereafewtimeswhenHefnerinvitedallofthe
editorsofthemagazinetocomeovertoseeanewmovie,beforeit
premiered,andotherwise,Iworkedattheoffice,anddidnthaveanything
todowithHefner.Sorry.
Whatisyourrequiredreadinglist?Alistenercalledearlierin
theshowandwonderedwhatyourrequiredreadinglistis.
RobertAntonWilsonsrecommendedreadinglist,doyouhave
anything?
Asthematteroffact,inthelatestissueofmymagazineTrajectories,which
isavailableatP.O.Box700305,SanJose,CA,95170.Send$20,andyouget
4issues.Inmynextissue,Ihavearecommendedreadinglist,whichisnot
thegreatestbooksormyfavouritebooks,butbooksthatIwisheverybody
wouldread,sothattheywouldbemorerounded.Andthelistis,ifIcan
rememberit:Ulysses,byJamesJoyceTheCantosofEzraPoundScience
andSanity,byAlfredGorgibskiShakespeareOvidChaucerJustinebyDe
Sade,becauseitraisesallofthequestionsthatnobodycananswertwo
booksbyNietszche,TheAnti-ChristandTwilightoftheIdolsTheOpen
SocietyandItsEnemiesbySirCarletonPopperandGulliversTravels,by
JonathanSwift.

Windinguphere,RobertAntonWilson,Iveheardthatitisnt
GeorgeWashingtonontheAmericandollarbill,butinsteadits
AdamWeishaupt,founderoftheIIluminati.Isthattrue?
Well,theressomeevidenceofthat.Andthepeoplewhowanttoknowmore
aboutthatcanfindtheevidencepresentedinmynovelIlIuminatus,whichis
widelyavailableinallthebetterbookstores.
So,nolittlehintsforusjustnow,ifwedonthaveanybucks,
RobertAntonWilson.AlittlehintaboutGeorgeWashington
andAdamWeishaup?
Ipreferpeopletoreadthebooks,becauseIdontgetpaidforthese
interviews,butIdogetpaidbythebook.
Butwerepayingforthisphoneinterview!Werepayingto
interviewyou.Itscostingusbythehour.So,windinguphere,
RobertAntonWilson,haveyouheardanygoodconspiracy
theorieslatelythatyouhaventwrittenbooksabout,sothat
youwonthavetochargeusforit.
Well,mycurrentfavouriteconspiracytheoryistheonethatHoaglandis
puttingforth,thatNASAhastonnesandtonnesandtonnesofevidencethat
thereislifeonMars,andtheyrehidingitall.Icantimaginewhytheywould
hideithisexplanationsonwhytheywouldhideitdontmakemakemuch
sensetome.ButIthinkthatsthemostamusingandbizarreconspiracy
theoryaround.
RobertAntonWilson,wouldyou,lastly,leaveuswith
somethingspecial,forthelistenersoutthereinRadioland?
Woulditbepossibletogiveanindulgencetothelistenersout
thereandmakethempopes.Please,alittleindulgencefor
everybody?
Yes,asaDiscordianpope,Ihavetheauthoritytomakeeverybodyapope
whohearsmyvoice.IfyoureallyandtrulywanttobecomeaDiscordian
pope,thenjustrepeatafterme:Spectacles,testicles,brandy,cigars.You
arenowabsolutelyinfallibleandmustexcommunicateeveryother
Discordianpopeyoumeet,becauseweDiscordiansmuststickapart.
Isthereanythingelseyouwouldliketoaddtothepeopleout
thereinRadioland?WhyshouldpeoplecareaboutRobert
AntonWilson?Whyshouldtheycareaboutyou?
Well,Itellyou,"sex"isnottheanswer."Sex"isthequestion"yes"isthe
answer.Socomeseeme.
Thankssomuch,RobertAntonWilson.Rightnowweregoing
toendwithasongbyBuddyKnox,called"IThinkImGoingto
KillMyself."So,keeponrockininafreeworldanddootdoola
dootdoo
Dootdoo.
RAWpicturebyLincolnClarkes

BacktotheMenu!

Date:TueSep1621:59:50EDT1997
From:Moderator
WelcometotheRobertAntonWilsonShow!WhatbetternameforthisveryspecialeditionofHighStrangenessonPrimeTime
Live?TheirrepressibleRAWismyguesttonightmynameisPatrickHuygheandIwillbetheModeratorforthischatabouttwoheadedpigs,realitytunnels,andRAW'snewbook"TheWallsComingTumblingDown"...
Forthoseunfamiliarwiththemanorhisoeuvre,RobertAntonWilsonisafuturist,author,formereditoratPlayboy,andastand-up
comic.Heistheauthorofthe"CosmicTrigger"trilogy,andthecoauthor,withRobertShea,oftheundergroundclassic"The
Illuminatus!"trilogy.Hisotherwritingsincludethe"Schrodinger'sCat"trilogy,called"themostscientificofallsciencefiction
novels,"byNewScientist,andseveralnonfictionworksofFuturistpsychologyandguerillaontology,suchas"PrometheusRising"
and"TheNewInquisition."Wilsonhasalsomadeacomedyrecord(SecretsofPower)andapunkrockrecord(TheChocolate
BiscuitConspiracy),andhisplay"WilhelmReichinHell"wasperformedattheEdmundBurkeTheatreinDublin,Ireland.Wilson's
webpageislocatedathttp://www.rawilson.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:00:33EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Aboyhasneverweptnordashedathousandkim.Motheristhebestbetanddon'tletSatandrawyoudowntoofast.Hoboand
Poboanddogbiscuit.Ifhe'shappyhedoesn'tgetsnappy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:01:02EDT1997
From:Moderator
"TheWallsCameTumblingDown,"publishedbyNewFalcon,isactuallythescriptforafilm.Onthesurfacethefilmisabouta
CSICOP-typephysicistnamedMikeElliswhoundergoesa"reframing"experienceaftertakingadrugcomboforatoothattack.
Deepdownitreallydealswiththescarythingsthathappentothosewhostumbleintoaborderlessorotherworldlyconsciousness
withoutanyintenttogothereandwithoutanypreparationorOperatingManualtotellthemhowtonavigatewhenthewallstumble,
thedoorsofperceptionflyopen,andthebottomfallsoutoftheirmentalfilingcabinet...
Welcome,Bob.Yourbookisaboutrealitytunnels--whatpeopleperceiveasbeingreal--andhowthewallsofthosetunnelsoften
collapseonpeople.Whendidthewallsofyourownrealitytunnelfirstcomecrashingdownonyou?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:03:46EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Itstartedslowlyinthe50swhenIgotinterestedinperceptionpsychologyandgeneralsemantics.Itacceleratedinthe60swhenI
foundethnomethodologyandLSD.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:04:30EDT1997
From:Moderator
YoumentionthatyousawyourFIRSTflyingsaucerbackin1947-8,rightatthebeginningoftheUFOera.Ithoughtthismighthave
beentheeventthatgotyoustarted.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:06:21EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Thatactuallyfeltminor.Ididn'tknowwhatIsaw--swampgas,spaceship,sundog,weatherballoon.Whatimpressedmewasmy
parents'fearofreportingthesighting.Irealizedthateveninourallegedlyrationalagemanythingsremainunspreakble--damned,
blasphemous.GeorgeCarlincan'tdohiscomedyonnetworksbecausethecomedydependsontaboowords.Weremaingoverned
bytabootoanastoundingextent.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:08:33EDT1997
From:Moderator
YoupointoutthatmoreandmorepeopleareexperiencingHighWeirdnessofonetypeoranother--UFOs,ESP,pastlives,OBEs,

etc.--whethertheEstablishmentlikesitornot.ButtheEstablishmentpreferstoburyitscollectiveheadinthesand,denyingitall
thewaytoChina.WhatishellISgoingon?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:10:58EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Thesameasalltherestofhistory,onlyfasterthistime.Theestablishmentalwaysrejectsthefirstdawningofthenewparadigm.
Thatisthefunctionoftheestablishment.Thefunctionofthehereticistocreatenewparadigms,someofwhichwillsuriveifthe
hereticislucky.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:12:21EDT1997
From:Moderator
Canthehereticeverwin?Arethereenoughofthemtomakethingschangefaster?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:14:39EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Heresyalwayswins.Allestablishmentsgrowrigidandossifiedanddieoff.Theindividualhereticmayplayaroleinthenew
paradigmormayjustserveascomedyrelief,i.e.appearasnuttytothefutureastothecurrentestablishment.Heresyisnogamefor
securityseekers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:16:38EDT1997
From:ModeratorAt
Isupposehereticarewhatyoualsocallinfophilesandtheestablishmentisrunbyinfophobics.Andit'saconstantfightbetweenthe
two,isn'tit?Evenmoresothesedaysitseems.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:19:13EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Iseetheconflictascomicandrecurrent.JoyceshowsitthatwayinFinnegansWake,andhe'smymajorhistoricaltheorist.Shem
andShaunneverstoptheirwar,theircomedyact,theirdance-whateveryoucallthisdialectic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:20:01EDT1997
From:Moderator
Weliveinanagewhentunnelwallsofalltypesarefallinginontheheadofpeoplewholeastexpectedit.Whataresomeofthemost
recentexamples,inyourobservation?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:22:21EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
ThecollapseoftheSovietUnion.TheracialequalityinS.Africa.ThePalestinianstate.Thesuddenre-mergenceofthelaborunions
inU.S.Thegrowinguseofalternativemedicine.TheeeriesuccessofMichaelJackson.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:23:55EDT1997
From:Moderator
Yes,butmanyofthesethingsseemverytemporary.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:26:40EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Fromageologicalpersepctiveallhumanhistorylookstemporary.WhatImeantoconveyistheaccelerationofchaotic
(unpredictible)eventsinthelastdecade.Informationandchaosareshakingeverhtingloose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:27:35EDT1997

From:Moderator
Speakingofchaosinrealitytunnels,whatisyourreactiontotheworld'sreactiontothedeathofPrincessDi?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:29:54EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Itastoundsme.TomethemostimportantrecentdeathswereTimLeary,WmBurroughsandAllenGinsberg.Themediabarely
coveredthem.Thentheygointoafrensyoverawomanwhosechiefclaimtofameisthatshemarriedaveryveryrichmanand
tookhimformillionsinthedivorce.Nowit'sMotherThresawhowentalloverAfrica,wherthemajorproblemsareAIDSand
starvation,andtoldthemnottousecondoms.IthinkIgotoffonthewrongplanet.BeammeupScotty,there'snorationallifehere.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:TueSep1622:34:42EDT1997
From:Moderator

Andspeakingofirrationallife...SomeaspectsofyourscriptremindedmeoftherecentmovieMIB.Dothetabloidsknowthetruth,
butmostofusintellectualtypesaretoostoopidtoreal-eyesit?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:36:35EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
It'snoteither/or.Youhavetoreadthetabloidsoneway(Jungian/anthropological)andtheintellectualsanotherway(primatestatus
games.)Andyougottareadthescientistsathirdway.Weneedtounderstandmorethanonelanguage.
Lookslikenobodyturnedupbutyouandme.Anybodyoutthere?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:38:14EDT1997
From:Moderator
Doyouthinkthatscienceiscrappingoutonthehardstuff-ESP,UFOS,pastlives,etc.--orthatit'srightforittoignorethese
subjects?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:39:44EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Crappingout.Thesesubjectsareallworthyofmorecarefulstudy.Verycarefulstudy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:40:02EDT1997
From:Moderato
(Idon'tknowiftheyopenedupthechattooutsidequestions.Hopethereissomeoneoutthere!)
Sohowdoyougetorthodoxsciencetohaveareframingexperience?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:42:31EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Ithappenseverygeneration.Waitfortheoldfartstodieoff,andtheyoungturkswillopenupeveryladtheytriedtoscrewshut.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:43:08EDT1997
From:Moderator
WhatdoyouseeinyourcrystalballforthefutureofCSICOP(CommitteefortheScientificInvestigationofClaimsofthe
Paranormal)andtheirnot-always-lovablefanaticanti-fanatics?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:43:36EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Thatshouldbe"lid"not"lad"butlet'sgivetheFreudiansathrill,whatthehell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:TueSep1622:44:44EDT1997
From:ModeratorAt:168.100.204.161
Iagree.BeepBeep.Kaneepsheep!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:45:22EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_WilsonAt
Well,whentheoldfartsdieoff,thenewleadersmayactuallydaretodoscientificinvestigationofclaimsoftheparanormalinstead
ofjustwritingestablishmentagit-prop.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:46:56EDT1997
From:ModeratorAt:168.100.204.161
Yea,buttheseguyshavealotofpowerintheUS.Theworld,thankGod,hasnotbeeninfectedbythemyet.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:47:35EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Anyway,IloveCSICOP,thewaySwiftmusthavelovedPartridge.Forthoseofsatiricbent,sometargetsseemsentbyDivineLove
togiveusfuelforourhumor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:48:59EDT1997
From:Moderator
Theyareclownish,butthemediaforthemostpartdoesn'trealizeitandtakestheirtaboosseriously.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:49:25EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Theydon'thavealotofpowertheyjustmakealotofnoise.Withoutthemtheartofslapstickwoulddieoff,likethe3stooges
withoutMoe.Anybodywhostillbelievesinthemediamusthavebeeninacomaforthepast30years.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:51:11EDT1997
From:Moderator
Changeofsubject...Youwerejust"reframed"--Youjustappearedinamovieforthefirsttimeinyourlife.Whatwasitandwhat
wasitlikeforyou?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:53:12EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Themoveiscalled"23."It'saboutKarlKoch,thekidwhoburrowedintoalloftheU.S.'stopsecuritysystemsfromhishomein
Hanover.Hewasafanofmybooks,andIplaymyself,givingalectureonfreedomofinformationandautographingaabookfor
Karl.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:54:05EDT1997
From:Moderator
Doyoubelieveeverythingyouwrite(andsay)?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:56:14EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Idon'tbelieveanythingIwriteorsay.Iregardbeliefasaformofbraindamage,thedeathofintelligence,thefractureofcreativity,
theatrophyofimagination.IhaveopinionsbutnoBeliefSystem(B.S.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:57:25EDT1997

From:Moderator
Timeisrunningout.Soplugyournextbook.Whatisit?(AndwhydoyouhaveyourbookspublishedbyNewFalconPublications,
asmallhouseinArizona,whenyourworkcouldcertainlycommandtheattentionandbucksofsomebigNewYorkpublishing
house?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1622:59:37EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
Nextbook,"EverythingIsUnderControl,"an"encyclopediaofconspiracytheories,"forHarperCollins,duenextsummer.Mostof
mybookscomefromFalconbecauseNYpublisherswerenotinterestedwhenIwrotethem.Thoseideashaveonlybecome
fashionable10or15yearsafterIwrotethem.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1623:00:37EDT1997
From:Moderator
WelcometotheFashionableWorld,Bob.Nowyou'reinbigtrouble!ThankyouverymuchRobertAntonWilsonforadelightful
reframingexperience.Iurgueeveryonetocheckout"TheWallsComeTumblingDown"andBob'swebsiteat
http://www.rawilson.com.ForHighStrangeness,thisisPatrickHuyghe.Goodnight!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Date:TueSep1623:02:14EDT1997
From:Robert_Anton_Wilson
GoodGod,weweretheonlyonesonline.Ahwilderness

Thistextis,tothebestofourknowledge,inthepublicdomainandisavailableforthereader'spleasureandeducation.Itistransmittedunderthe"FairUse"
rulingsregardingthe1976CopyrightActfornon-profitacademic,research,andgeneralinformationpurposes.
Ifthereistheslightestcopyrightambiguity,pleaseletusknowandwe'llimmediatelyaddresstheissueorremovethefile.

OnlineconferencewithDr.RobertAntonWilson
14April1986

(SysopJim)OK,quietpeoples.IpresentDr.RobertAntonWilson.
(BobWilson)CocaineisnatureswayoftellingyoutheVaticanBankneedsyourmoneymorethanyoudo.
(BenRowe)Bob,sincemagick,andthecabalaplaysucharoleinyourbooks,I'mcurioustoknowjustwhat
youattitudetowardssuchthingsare,hereinthereal(?)world.Couldyoustateyourfeelingsbriefly?
(BobWilson)Iregardmagickandcabalaasdoorwaystoarcheologicallevelsofthehumanbrain.
(BenRowe)Doyoupracticeanyformofityourself?
(BobWilson)Yes.
(BenRowe)Caretosaywhatkind?
(BobWilson)Ritualinvocation,gematria.
(Avatar)TofollowuponBen'squestion,areyoupresentlyamemberofanysecretsocietiesoroccultorders
andcouldyoutellusthenamesandyourgradewithinthem?
(BobWilson)Thatwouldbetelling.IppsissimusmaximusoftheIlluminati
andtoenailoftheHeadTempleoftheHighPriesthoodofErisEsoteric.
(Avatar)Amusingtothelast.
(PeterdaSilva)I'mnotsurewhatbookthiswasin,IthinkmaybeRightWhereyouareSittingNow--youwere
talkingaboutthepossiblefutureofhumansexuality.Ithoughtthatthesortsofthingsyouweretalkingabout
wereratherpedestrian.Wereyou...
(BobWilson)Definepedestrian?
(PeterDASilva)Well,youonlyconsideredtwosexes,tobeginwith.
(BobWilson)Oh.
(SysopJim)Amajoroversight,nodoubt.
(Rodney)WhenwillthenextvolumeofTHEHISTORICALILLUMINATUSbeoutandwilltherebemoreto
follow?
(BobWilson)ItwillbefinishedayearafterIfinishwritingit.Therewillbefivevolumesinthisseries,of
course.
(peter)doyouthinkmachineswilleverbesmarterthanpeople?
(BobWilson)they'realreadysmarterthansomepeople.
(SysopGeorgia)true!
(PeterDASilva)CanIbeobnoxioussomemore?
(BobWilson)Yes.
(PeterDASilva)Backtomypreviousquestion/comment/speech.Youdidn'tseemtogettooheavilyintothe

possibilitiesofbioengineeringastouchedonbysuchpeopleasJohnVarley(OphiuchiHotline,Titan,etc.).
Haveyouanymorethoughtsonthesubjectnowthattechnologyhasbeguntocatchuponyou?
(BobWilson)Ithinkwecanengineerimmortalsuperhumanbeingsinmanydimensionsofsuperioritytous.I
hopewecanlearntore-engineerourselvesneurologicallytobecomemoresuperhumanthanourcreations
bylearningfromthem.
(PeterDASilva)Howabouttechnologicalimmortality?
(BobWilson)Tounderstandanything,youmustbeabletomakeaworkingmodelofit.Themorewemodel
thehumanbrain,notonlythroughbioengineeringbutthroughcomputers,themorewecanmakebetter
brainsforourselves.
(Avatar)First,doyouthinkwesterncivilizationwillsurvivethenextcentury,andwhatdoyouthinkwillbethe
significanteventswhichwillcharacterizeitsexistence?Second,whatdoyouthinkofthe"magic"energy
machineofJosephNewman?
(BobWilson)JustheardoftheNewmanmachinetwodaysago.Toosoontoformanopinion.
(SysopJim)Onthefirstquestionthen.
(BobWilson)Ithinkwesterncivilizationwillsurvive.Itwillbeincreasinglylikealibertarian,pagan,psionic
sciencefictionnovel,probablybyme.
(Geoff)HiBob...Aquestionaboutskepticism.Asoneoftheresidentskeptics,I'vealwaysadvocated
"keepingyourB.S.detectorturneduponhigh"wheninvestigatingthesestrangephenomena.Myquestion...
whatdegreeofskepticismisappropriateandwhenisittimetoturnskepticismoff?
(BobWilson)Skepticismshouldbedialectical.DoubtA,thendoubtNOTA.ThendoubtbothAandNOTA.
Thendoubtyourownabilitytodoubtenough.
(Geoff)GREAT!!
(BobWilson)DoubtalsoDoubtitself.
(BenRowe)Acrowleyfan,Isee.
(BobWilson)ExperimentwithAlternativebeliefsystems,enteralternative,cognitivegridsandastheZen
MastersaidwhenaskedthewayoftheTao,"Move!".
(Geoff)Thanx,Bob.AndwelcometoCIS!!!
(BenRowe)Bob,oneoftheperpetualargumentshereisaboutthedegreetowhichsubjectivephenomena,
suchastheresultsofmagickalinvocations,canbeusefullydealtwithfromaan"objective",scientific
viewpoint.Couldyoutellusyourfeelingsastotheplaceofobjectiveinquiryinsuchfields?
(BobWilson)Buddhasaid,"doubt,andfindyourownlight."Ritualistotheinnerscienceswhatexperimentis
totheoutersciences.Believenothingonfaith.Testallthings.EntereveryrealitytunnelIfthereareonly
cannibalsinsideclosethedoorquicklyandmovetothenextrealitytunnel.Fearnothing,nevercomplain.
(SysopJim)"Testallthings"Applyingwhattests?
(BenRowe)Itakeitthatmeansyouthinkscienceisprettymuchuselessinthatarea.
(BobWilson)Ifthehypothesisgetstheresultyouwant,tentativelycontinuethehypothesis.Ifthehypothesis
busts,makeabetterhypothesis.AsJohnLillysays,"ScienceistheYogaoftheWest.Yogaisthescienceof
theEast".Dotheexperiments,watchtheresults.Idon'tseethatthat'snotscientific.
(BenRowe)Theproblemwerunintohereseemstobemoreinfindingsomebasistotalkaboutsuchthings.
Theobjectivistswontacceptthe"evidence"ofthesubjectivistssuchasmyself,andviceversa.Anyideas
aboutfindingacommongroundforthissortofdiscussion?
(BobWilson)ObjectivistsaredisciplesofAynRand.Seemmydefinitionof"disciples"underNEWAGEin
religionSIG.
(PeterDASilva)IwishIhadyouroptimismaboutthefuture,BOB.Idon'tseelibertariaanytimesoon.Can

yougiveanyofyourthoughtsasto*how*itwillcomeabout?(wonderifIcangetastraightanswerthistime.)
(**BobWilson**)Iwilldomypart,thepartonlyIcandofrommypositioninspace-time.Ibelieveothersare
doingthesamethingfromtheirspace.DowhatthouWiltshallbetheWholeoftheLaw
(PeterDASilva)Sigh...
(SysopJim)Peter,theseAREstraightanswers.Remember,spaceiscurved.Followup?
(PeterDASilva)Washopingforascenarioorprediction,notanoathofallegiance.Rightnowthe
authoritariansseemtobewinningandmypositioninspacetimeisabummer.
(BobWilson)Sorry...youcreatedthatrealitytunnel,youcanfindyourwayout...YoubuilttheTrap...youknow
thedesignbetterthananyone...
(rich)Bob,ALLphenomenasubjective.Isnotsearchforobjectivityreallysearchformeansofcommunicating
thosethataremoresubjectivethanothers?Does"science"reallyhaveanymeaningasan"object/idea"
unlessapplied?
(BobWilson)Can'tunderstandyourterminology.Questionmeaninglessinmyrealitytunnel.TryAgain!
(rich)Everythingissubjective.Inabilitytoexpressideasmakesitso,butrecoursetosciencedemands
communicationintermsothersunderstand,no?
(BobWilson)Thatmeansaslittletomeaseverythingisgreen.IfeverythingisGreen,westillneedseparate
wordsforthekindofgreenthatlookslikeRedandthekindofgreenthatlookslikeblue.Ifeverythingis
subjective,westillneedwordsforthesubjectivethingsthateverybodysees,thesubjectivethingsthatonly
onepersonsees,andthesubjectivethingsthatyoubreakyourlegon,andthesubjectivethingsthatare
called,"theBalladoftheLongLeggedBait."
(Avatar)Themodelthatmodernscienceusestoexplaintheworldintermsofatoms,molecule,particles,and
fieldsworksquitewellformanythingsthatwedo,butisoccasionallyassaultedbyinterestingloopholeslike
rainsofhazelnuts,ancientrockscontaininglivefrogs,screwupsinspaceandtime,etc.Whatextensionsto
conventionalsciencehaveyoufoundmosteffectivetoenableyoutomodelanomalousevents,andcould
youexplainsomeofthemtous?

(BobWilson)JUNG'stheoryofsynchronicity(psychologically-inducedspacetimerelativity).Bell'stheorem
ofnon-localhiddenvariables.Transcendingspace-time.Persinger'stheoryofgeomagneticfluctuations
linkedtohumanbrainfunction.Iwonderifthelinkworksbothways.EdwinHarrisWalker"thecomplete
quantumanthropologist(proceedingsoftheAmericanAnthropologicalAssociation,1974)unifyingBell
theoremwithpsychokineticexperimentalresults.Garfinkel.
(Avatar)Of"SimonandGarfinkel"?
(BobWilson)GarfinkelonrealityglossingandLearyonimprintingofrealitytunnelsnotwhentheybecome
ordinarybyrepetition.
(SysopJim)IfImay,anecdotalorscientificrepetition?
(BobWilson)Both.
(PeterDASilva)Problemwithtuningperceptionofrealityisitdoesn'tgetyouoffthefrontlines(unlessI'm
psychotic&dreamingwe'reinauthoritarianstatewhilewe'reinlibertarianparadise.Ifso,pleasewakeme
up).So,pleasequittreatingmelikeparapsychologistattheAAAS&givesomeindicationastohowtransition
istooccur.
(SysopJim)Ha!
(BobWilson)Breathnormally,eatlesssugar...eatfoods...gethighfrequently...
(PeterDASilva)Hey!Iquitputtingsugarinmycoffeealready!
(BobWilson)learntomeditate,stopbeingafraidandangry...youaresurroundedbyanetworkoflove...take
downthebricks,removethearmor...thereisnothingtofear.StopComplaining...havechickensouponcea
day...
(PeterDASilva)Dochickenfajitascount?

(SysopJim)Ihopeyou'regettingallthisdown,Peter.
(PeterDASilva)Inmyprintbuffer.
(BobWilson)Learntolaugh,learntogive...lightenupyouract,andrememberwhomadethegrassgreen...
(PeterDASilva)Newton.
(Robby)wealldo
(BobWilson)andwhoputtheinsectmonstersinyourrealitytunnel...
(Peter)DoyoubelieveinGOD?
(BobWilson)Godisaridiculouslysmallhumanconceptcomparedtothecoherentintelligenceofuniverse.
Everythingdoesn'tneedtohaveaprimateAlphamaleinchargetobeanintelligentsystem.
(Mark)CanyoutellmetheformulaforAUM(orwheretofindsaidformula)?
(BobWilson)Don'tknowthelawsrelatingtocommunicationofsuchinformation.Don'twanttheownerofthis
machinebusted.
(Mark)Datasource?
(BobWilson)Whomakesthegrassgreen?
(Robby)magickintheoryandpracticebya.c.
(BobWilson)OralTradition!
(Robby)true
(SysopJim)WhatisAUM?
(PeterDASilva)Ultimateacid.
(BobWilson)Thosewhoknowdonotspeak...
(Mark)Drugtoconvertneophobesintoneophiles.
(SysopJim)Isee.hokay,Kaci?
(BobWilson)Drugobsolete,electronsarethepsychedelicsofthe80's
(PeterDASilva)"TurnOn,TuneIn,LinkUp"?
(BobWilson)Andshinelikestars....
(kaci)dareidigressandaskwhatpersinger'stheoryofgeofluxis??
(BobWilson)Persingerhasfoundstatisticallinksbetweengeomagneticcyclesandforteandataanomalistics
andparapsychology.Seehisspace-timetransientsandunusualevents(co-author).
(kaci)inwhatkindofperiodicity?
(BobWilson)LAFRENSERIEandbrain-mindbulletincircaDecember1985...Ihope....Anomalisticscorrelate
withearthquakeactivityandstrongpsychicexperiencewithlowgeomagneticactivity.
(rich)whatphysicalmeansispostulatedforexistenceanduseofpsychicpowers/uses?
(BobWilson)Thecarelesspostulatevaguepsycho-kineticenergies.Persingerpostulatesmeasurable
geomagneticfields.Walkerderivespsychokineticeffectsfrombasicequationsofnon-localquantum
connectedness.
(ELAD)Ihavefoundthisdiscussioninteresting.but,sorrytosay...iamnotfamiliarwithmr.Wilson'sbooks.
sincetherewasnobioatthebeginningIwouldappreciatehisbooklistingandbooksthatherecommends.

(BobWilson)"ThisIlike":ThebookoftheBreast,sexanddrugs,Illuminatus!,CosmicTrigger,TheUniverse
NextDoor,theHomingPidgeons,theTrickTopHat,Neuropolitics,RightWhereYouareSittingNow,Masksof
theIlluminati,TheIlluminatiPapers,PrometheusRising,TheEarthWillShake,TheWidowsSon,andtwoI'd
ratherforget.
(SysopJim)AndnumerousissuesofPlayboy,yes?
(BobWilson)Ionlywrotetheshorteditorialsonwhypotshouldbelegalizedabortionshouldbelegalized,
victimlesscrimesshouldbeabolished,thedraftshouldbeabolished,andafewsimilarideasnowtriteand
soontobeconservative.EvenBuckleynowagreeswithmeaboutdrugs.RemembertheZenMasterwho
said,"move".
(PeterDASilva)Sorry...can'tstopaskinghardquestions...ismyrolehere.2questionsthistime.1)haveyou
readandifsowhatdoyouthinkofJulianJayne'sbook"TheOriginofConsciousnessintheBreakdownofthe
BicameralMind".2)IwishyouwouldwritesomeScienceFiction(wheredefinedasso:-aSFwriteris
embarrassedbyhisinconsistencies,afantasywriterisproudofthem).3)(Ilied)Doyoureallythinkthere
*are*psychedelicsofthe'80s?
(BobWilson)Jane'smodelinteresting.SoisStanGoochintotalman.IpreferPribramhologrammodeland
Leary8circuitmodel.
(PeterDASilva)(ofcourse)
(BobWilson)Inconsistenciesofmybooksareinconsistenciesofquantummechanics,whichiswhynew
scientistmagazinecalledme"mostscientificofallsciencefictionwriters"...Iblush....Butfactsarefacts.
Thankyouforexchangingelectrons,thepsychedelicsofthe80's.
(PeterDASilva)Ifthesearepsychedelics,I'mgoingbacktodrugs.
(BobWilson)HaveahighHoliday...
(RobertWiggins)Bob,I'vebeenreadingyouformanyyears(morethan10)now(IevenhaveSexandDrugs
inhardcover)andwantedtotellyouI_still_gobacktoread"10ReasonstoGetOutofBedintheMorning"
thatappearedinOuimagazine.Myquestionismundane(butI'menjoyingtheconversationhere)doyou
knowofaplaceinNYCthatcarriesyourbooks(and/orLeary's)
(BobWilson)Thouartbeat,ForbiddenplanetandLaissezFairebooks,Weisers,ga
(Robby)areyoutheBOBOofsubgeniusfame
(BobWilson)Thatwouldbetelling.ga
(Robby)isawdeSelbytodayhewaswearingpink
(BobWilson)Otherssaid,"hewasapinkelf"buthewasgladtobethereandmeetallofyou.
(Robby)deself-by?
(BobWilson)IdidnotinventdeSelby.AsprofessorLACKANOOKIEsays,
"TIJENTIEN,TIENJENTAO,deSelbyTZUJAN".Veryroughly,theearthcreatespeople,theskycreatesearth.
deSelbybecamewhathealwayswas".
(PeterDASilva)Whatarethetwobooksyoudon'twanttoremember,andwhatdoyouthinkofSteve
Jackson'sgame"Illuminati"?
(BobWilson)Whendidyoustopeatingyourwife...nowait...Whendidyoustopbeatingyourwife?
(PeterDASilva)Ilikethefirstonebetter.
(BobWilson)andwasthereeveradogthatpraiseditsfleas
(Avatar)OK-Iamhonored-twoquickies.Whatisyourbirthdate?anddoyoubelieveinDeathafterLife?
(BobWilson)January18th,1932.DeathandLifeareunscientificconcepts,assuch.Allweknowisthetunedinandthenottuned-in.Thenottuned-inmaybetunedin./TUNDEATH/MONLIFEwiththepropertechnology
orneurology.Wearemadeoutofthedebrisofexplodingstars.Thenot-tuned-inisnotnonexistentsince

nonexistenceisametaphysicalconcept.Operationallystars,people,quarksTunein,ortuneout,thedanceis
eternal.LO!Thehappymoron,hedoesn'tgiveadamn.IwishIwasamoron....MYGOD!Perhapsiam!Love
toAll.Stopbeingafraid,Peter.Goodnight.
(PeterDASilva)Notinmyprogram.

Tothebestofourknowledge,thetextonthispagemaybefreelyreproducedanddistributed.

ROBERTANTONWILSON
ParadigmShiftInterviewbyPhilipH.Farber
WethinkmanyofourreadersarealreadyfamiliarwiththeworkofRobertAntonWilson.Ifyou'renot--hooboy!--wearealittleenviousofyou,
becauseyou'vegotthechancetodiscoverforthefirsttimeanamazingcollectionofbooksincludingIlluminatus!(withRobertShea),TheEarthWill
Shake,TheWidow'sSon,PrometheusRising,CosmicTrigger,QuantumPsychology,andabunchmore.Wilson'snovelsandnon-fictionare
guaranteedtoblowthecobwebsfromyourneurons,rattleyourcage,yankyourchain,andopenyoureyes.
ParadigmShiftrecentlyhadthepleasureofconductingthefollowinginterviewwithDr.Wilson:
PHF:Whatisitthatyoumostliketodowithyourtimethesedays?
RobertAntonWilson:IliketogetstonedandsurftheWeb.Ifindallsortsofwonderfulwonders,bothintextandart.Thishobbyoccupiesafewhours
anight,threeorfournightsaweek.Otherwise,IenjoymostofwhatIdobutfeelmorepressureaboutit.IlookaftermywifeArlen,whoisrecovering
fromastrokeIshopandcookandhousecleanetc.andIkeepworkingonanencyclopediaofconspiracytheoriesforHarperCollins.Allthathasitsown
rewards,butstonedWebsurfingisjustpureplay...andofteneducational,too.
PHF:Hehheh....That'sacommonpastimearoundhere,too.Doyouthinkthatthehyperlinkednatureofthewebencouragesadifferentkindofthinking?
Ifso,doessurfingstonedenhancethat?
RAW:Ikindofsuspectthathyperlinkingencouragesholisticoratleastnonlinearperception,butIhadalotofexperiencewiththatbeforetheWeb.Most
ofmyfavorite20thcenturywriters--especiallyJoyce,Pound,Williams,Burroughs--seemtohaveahyperlinkedstyle.McLuhancomparedthemtothe
frontpageoftheNewYorkTimesandKennercomparedthemtofilmmontage.It'sallblendedinmyhead--nonlinearpagemake-upinjournalism,
montageinfilm,collageinpainting,Joyce,Pound,Williams,Burroughs,nowtheWeb--andbeingstonedcertainlyhelpsyougroovewiththatkindof
"cubist"sensibility.Infact,stoneddialsurfingonTVmakesformuchthesameeffect.(IoncethoughtIinventeddialsurfingbutsomanyothersinventedit
ataboutthesametimeIdon'tthinkwe'lleverknowwhowasfirst...)
Allthatsaid,websurfingremainsthemostfun,andprobablythemosteducational.
PHF:Whataresomeofyourfavoritesitestosurfstoned?
RAW:Well,I'dratherturnthataroundandaskyouandyourreadersthesamequestion.I'mworkingupalistofThe10BestSitesToVisitWhileStoned,
whichI'lladdtomyownwebsitewhenit'sfinished,andI'mstilllookingformoreleads...JusttackthemonattheendofthisinterviewandI'llexploreall
theonesthatarenewtome.
EDITOR'SNOTE:PleasesendsubmissionsfortheBestSitesToVisitWhileStonedtopara93@aol.com,andwewillforwardsuggestions
toDr.Wilson.
PHF:Okay...I'msurewehaveenoughstonedpeoplesurfingthesepages.PerhapswecansetupaformtosubmitURLsthatcanaccompanythis
interview.
RAW:Ihopeso.Bytheway,nottobetoocoy,afewofmyfavoritewebsites,whichIhavebookmarkedanddon'tkeeptheURLsfor,aretheUnofficial
GeorgeCarlinsite,theMontyPythonsites,theSubGeniussite,theDiscordiansiteandtheRepublicofTexassite.
PHF:Anyway...Fromwhatyouseeinyourvirtualtravels,doyouthinkpeoplearegenerallyusingthewebwithintelligence,orhasitbecomeawasteland
torivalprimetimetelevision?
RAW:Idon'tknowwhat"people"aredoingwiththeWeb.Sincemostpeopleseemtometobemoderatelyretarded,Iassumethey'renotusingmuchof
whatisavailabletothem.However,thebrightestpeopleIknowareusingtheWebverycreativelyandallseemtobegettingbrighter...oratleastbetter
informed.
IassumethebrightestpeopleuseTVthatway,too,andtheyhaveusedbooksthatwayfor500yearsnow.
PHF:Ourwebzenmaster,JohnHoke,asks,"Doyouthinkthewebisaconspiracytokeepalltheotherconspiraciesoutintheopen?"
RAW:Well,that'scertainlyanamusingwayoflookingatit.Ingeneral,IregardtheWebastheclosestapproximationyetachievedtotheidealofafree
marketplaceofideas.TheMarxistcriticismofdemocracy("freedomofthepressbelongsonlytothosewhoownthepress")hasalwaysbeen
uncomfortablyclosetothetruth.ButwiththeWeb(andnewsgroups,chatroomsetc.)morepeoplehavemorefreedomofthepressorfreedomofspeech
thaneverbefore.Ibelievethatisthemostpositivedevelopmentinthisgeneration.
It'snotjusttheconspiracypagesthatshowamuchgreaterdiversityofopinionthanthegeneralmedia.Diversityisalloverthenet.Everybodywhocan
saveupenoughmoneytogetacomputercansendtheirownversionofrealitytotheworldatlarge."JustwhatIalwayswanted,"TomJeffersonwould
say.

PHF:Isthereanythingyou'dliketoseehappeningonthe'netthatyouhaven'tfoundthere?
RAW:Amoreperfectunionofinternet,TVandVCRs.Andthatcan'tbemorethanafewyearsaway...
PHF:I'minterestedinyourrecentworkwithRichardBandler.HaveyoufoundNLPtobeusefulinyourwriting?
RAW:Yesandno.Dr.BandlerkeepsinsistingthatIhaveusedNLPforyears,evenifIdidn'tknowitmyself.Icanseewhathemeans.BothRichardand
IhavebeenstronglyinfluencedbyAlfredKorzybski,whosesystemofnon-aristotelianlogicandgeneralsemanticsunderliealotofwhatBandlerdoesin
hisworkshopsandhypnotherapyandtheyalsounderliemuchofmy"guerillaontology,"notjustinmyideasbutinmystylesofpresentationandmywayof
alteringstyles.(Forinstance,mypsychedelictheoriesderiveasmuchfromKorzybskiasfromdearoldTimothyLeary.)
SoyoumightsayI"knew"NLPbeforeIstudiedit.Ontheotherhand,studyingNLPhashelpedmeagreatdeal.Iunderstandmyownworkbetterand
thereforeIthinkIcandoitmoreskillfullyandpowerfullynow.
Toputthisintowidercontext,inarecentconversationDrBandleragreedwithmethatFaulknerusesmanyNLPtechniquesinhisprose,particularlyinhis
famouslongsentences,wherethereadersabsorbalotmorethantheyconsciouslycomprehend.And,ofcourse,Faulkneralsoinfluencedmyworkagood
deal.
PHF:Okay...SinceNLPwasdevelopedfrommodelingeffectivelanguage,thatmakessense.Apartfromwritingskills,haveyoubeenplayingwithitin
otherways?Accessingalteredstatesorotherwisechangingbrains?
RAW:Ofcourse.Chiefly,Iuseittorelaxandstopworrying--twothingsIneedtoworkonthesedays,duetomedicalproblemsafflictingpeoplenear
anddeartome.IuseacombinationSufilisteningexercise(whichgetsyouintorelaxationandneartrance)andBandler'smightymantra,whichyourepeat
everytimeyoustartgoingbackintoworryoranxiety.Themantraisslowandspacedanditsaystothevoiceofworry,"Shutthefuckup."Aftera
fewtriesyougetverygoodatmakingthatdamnedvoiceshutthefuckup.
I'vealsousedsomeNLPtechniquesinmyworkshopstomakevariousmeditationexercisesquickerandmoreefficient.Nodoubtaboutit,NLPhasone
ofthemostpracticalandefficientreprogrammingsystemsaround.
PHF:DoyouthinkNLPorEricksonianhypnosishaspotentialforchangingimprints?Orjustconditioning?
RAW:Geewhillikers,Iwishyouwouldn'tasksuchhardquestions.IhavebeentryingtofigurethisoneouteversinceIlearnedalittleNLP,andthemore
Ilearn,themoreunsureIbecome.NLPcertainlychangesconditioning.Maybe,justmaybe,itcanevenreverseimprinting.I'llhavemoredefiniteopinions
aboutthatinanotheryearorso.
PHF:Damn...Iwashopingyouhadtheanswertothatone!Anyway...ontootherterritory...What'syourtakeontheClintonadministration'sattemptto
squelchmedicalmarijuana,eveninthestateswherepeoplehavevotedformedicalherb?
RAW:Ihatetobecomepredictable,butIregardClinton'spositionasnotonlywrong,morallyandmedically,butunconstitutional,fascisticandall-around
rotten.IfBobMarleyhadn'tsaiditalreadyaboutthepope,I'dsayClintonwasImperialWizardoftheKuKluxKlan,GodfatheroftheMafiaandgeneral
all-aroundAnti-ChristbutIguessthatlinedoesworkbetterforthepope.
Tosoundlessviolentandmoreprecise,theConstitutionliststhepowersofthefederalgovernmentveryclearly.Nowheredoesitlistthepowertocreate
anofficialschoolofcorrectmedicaltheoryanduseforcetopreventcompetitionbyrivaltheories.
Thispowerisclearlyreserved"totheStatesorthepeople,"anambiguityIassumewasdeliberatebecausethefounderswantedpowerdividedasmany
waysaspossibleandeachpartinsometension(alaBuckyFuller'sdynamictensionphilosophy)withalltheothers.Thegrowthoffederalpoweroverall
thetraditionalchecksandbalancesistheworstsingleeventofthisdyingcenturyandIhopeitwillbereversedinthenextcentury.
ThisisnotjustamatterofonemedicalheresytheFDAiscrackingdownmoreandmoreoftenonanydoctorwhodoesnotobeyorthodoxy,and
orthodoxyalwaysturnsouttobethatwhichbenefitsthebillion-dollarpharmaceuticalindustry.Materialistsmayconsiderthatmatchbetweenorthodoxy
andprofitsmerecoincidence,Jungiansmaycallitsynchronicity,buttomeitlookslikeaconspiracytoripoffthepublic.
There'sanewmedicineforAIDS,Iforgetitsname,butitwillcost$20,000ayear.Thosewithlessmoneythanthatwilljusthavetosufferon.Nowreally
doesanybodybelievethismedicinewouldbelegalifyoucouldgrowitinyourbackyardanditmadenoprofitsforthecorporateelite?
AsBismarcksaid,"Lawsarelikesausages.Youhavemorerespectforthemifyouhaven'tseenhowthey'remade."
OhtogetbacktothatBobMarleyquote.Idon'treallyconsiderClintontheGodfatheroftheMafiaorImperialWizardoftheKKK,buthedoeslook
moreandmorelikeaGeneralAll-AroundAnti-Christ.
PHF:Heh...I'minagreement.Doyouthinkthevariouspro-medical-potbillsthatpassedinafewstatesbodeswellforlegalizationinthenearfuture,in
spiteofClintonandthepharmaceuticalindustry?UnderwhatconditionswouldYOUliketoseeherblegalized,ifatall?
RAW:IhaveanIdealAnswerandamorePragmaticAnswer.Ideally,Iwouldlikeagovernmentthatleteverybodytohellaloneandletusallmakeour
ownmedicaldecisionsandevenourownrecreationaldecisions.That,Ithink,isthekindofgovernmentintendedbytheConstitution.Theideathatweare
ignorantchildrenandPapaGovernmenthastomakeallourdecisionsforusisnotademocraticidea,notatallit'samedieval,almostPapistidea.I'dget
ridofallvictimlesscrimelawsandleteverybodydoanythingthatharmsnottheirneighbors.Iknowthatsoundslooney,likeoneofthose18thCentury
radicalsoftheTomJeffersonilk,butideallyitisthekindofgovernmentI'dlike.
Pragmatically,sincemostAmericans,likemostpeopleeverywhere,haveanemotionalanchortothepatriarchal-authoritarianstructure,asdescribedby
ReichinTheMassPsychologyofFascism,Idon'texpecttheradicalideasof18thCenturyintellectualstohaveanysuddenrebirthhere,oranywhere
elseontheplanet.So,pragmatically,Ijusthopeforgradualmoderationofthepresentinsanedruglaws,asmoreandmorepeople,evenconservatives,
becomemoreandmoreawarethatwe'respendingvastbillionsofdollarsona"war"thatcannotbewon,whileotherpartsofourcountryarefallingapart
becauseoflackoffundingforbetterschools,civilizedmedicalcare,etc.AccordingtoPeteMcWilliams'sAin'tNobody'sBusinessIfYouDo,wespend

around450billionayeartryingtoenforcevictimlesscrimelaws.Peoplewhowantabalancedbudgetorasmallernationaldebthavemoreandmore
realizedwhatavastwastethatis.Theywillfavormovestowardmoremoderationandsomesanity.
Ofcourse,themajorargumentforcuttingbackontheWarOnSinissimplythatinrealcrimesyou'vegotvictimswhoareeagertohelpthepoliceidentify
theculprit,publicagreementthatsuchcrimes(robberyrapeetc.)shouldnotbeallowed,andageneralcooperationbetweenthepeopleandthecops.In
victimlesscrimes,youhavetheoppositesitutation.TheonlywaythepowerelitecanreallywinanywaragainstSinistospendtrillions,notbillions,and
establishafull-scaletotalitarianism.There'senoughgrowingresistancetofederalpoweralreadyIdon'tthinkthepublicwillallowthehighertaxesandtotal
lossoflibertysuchawarwouldcostus.
PHF:Freeassociatingfromthefederalgov'ttoconspiracies...Doyouthinkthecurrentmediaglutconcerningaliens,X-files,MeninBlack,etc.,isan
indicationofsomeorganizedattemptatpropagandaordisinformation?Orsomethingrisingfromthecollectiveunconscious?
RAW:Thisrequiresacomplicatedanswer.Idon'tseeoneorganizedconspiracyrunningthewholeshow,butIdoagreewithJacquesValleeandPhil
KlassthatthegovernmenthasusedUFOflapstohelpplantcertainbeliefsystems(Vallee)andalsotocoverupotherthingstheydidn'twantustoknow
(Klass)--forinstance,inearlydays,theU2spyplanes.HoweverIthinkmostUFOeventscomefromsomewhereelse...andmyfavoritemodelcombines
Jung(spontaenousreleaseofarchetypesofthecollectiveunconscious)andPersinger(energyfluctuationsthatprovokerealLights,usuallyballlightning,
plus"poltergeist"typephenomena(dancingfurniture,electricsystemsgoingonandoffunpredictiblyetc.)plusbrainwavechangeunleashingtheJungian
archetypes...>
Butthesearejustmyfavoritemodels.TheUFOexperienceseemstomeprofoundlymorepuzzlingthaneitherthedogmaticBelieversordogmatic
Debunkersseemtorealize.Iguessmythirdfavoritemodel,ornon-model,isHynek'sagnosticnotionthatwemayhavetochangebasicideas(abouttime,
space,egoorwhatnot)beforewecanbegintofathomthisgallopingwierdity.
Basedonexperiencewithmedia,Idon'tthinkanycentralconspiracy"controls"everythingtotally,althoughcertainideasgetnotablyignoredinmassmedia
andcertainideasgetreinforcedoverandover...butontheotherhand,whatgetsfashionabledependsmostoftenonboxofficereturns.Forinstancewe've
hadsomanyfilmsaboutserialkillers,notbecausethePowerElitewantstomakeusmoreafraidofoneanother,butbecauseTheSilenceoftheLambsdid
sodamnedwellandwehavesomanyalienmoviesbecauseETdidsodamnwell,andnowwehavesinisteralienmoviesbecauseXFilesdidsodamn
well.
PHF:Anythoughtsaboutwheresucharadicalchangeinbasicideasmightcomefrom?
RAW:Asoftoday(August11,1997)IfindthemostinterestingideasintraditionalBuddhism,Nietzsche,CharlesFort,severalquantumphysicists(Nick
Herbert,DavidBohm,FredWolfe,DavidFinkelstein)andinRupertSheldrake.AddtogethertheBuddhistyogaofdetachmentfromfixedideasand
emotions,Nietzche'sandFort'smercilessassaultontheculturalprejudicesthataresodeeplyembeddedweusualydon'tnoticethem,quantumuncerainty
andholism,Sheldrake'sspecialvarietyofholism,andIthinkwehavethebeginningofahintoftheNewParadigmweneed.ButafterlookingatthislistI
realizeIshouldhaveincludedKorzybski'sgeneralsemantics,Bandler'sneurolinguisticprogrammingandLeary'sevolutionary-existentialistneuropsychologyorinfo-psychologyashemostrecentlylabelledit.
PHF:Okay...sowhyareconspiracytheoriessopopular?
RAW:Informationflowisaccelerating,asseveralstudieshaveindicatedandasIhavedocumentedinafewofmybooks.Informationaccelerationleads
tofractalfunctions,accordingtomathematicianTheodoreGordon.Fractalfunctionsarealwaysunpredictible.Okay?
Well,mostpeopledon'tknowenoughmathandsociologytounderstandthatsimpleparagraph.Alltheyknowisthateverythingisgettingmore
unpredictibleandthatlooksspookytothem.(Theunpredictibletendstospookallmammals...)Unabletograspwhatishappening(acceleratedevolution),
mostdomesticatedprimatesfeelspookedandthreatenedandlookaroundforsomeEvilForcetoblame.Conspiracytheorieswillcontinuetoproliferate
aslongastheaccelerationdoesnotincludeanaccelerationofgeneraleducation...butthatwillhavetohappenasthewholeworldmovesintohighgear.
Thenwe'llhavemoreunderstanding(science)andlessdemonology(conspiracytheory.)
PHF:Anysuggestionsforthosewhomightfindthemselvescuriousaboutconspiracytheories,oronthevergeofswallowingonewhole?
RAW:Iam100percentinfavorofstudyingconspiracytheoriesbecause,nexttoquantummechanics,theyrepresentthebesttestofhowwellyoucan
handleambiguityanduncertainty.Mostpeopleatpresentcannothandleindeterminacyatallandgenerallyevadeitbyrushingtoprematurecertitude.Ifyou
reallystudyconspiracytheorycarefully,examiningallitsflavors,theresultislikestudyingquantumtheoryandallofitsconflictingmodels.Youeithergo
bonkersoryoulearntothinkbeyondthearistotelianeither/orlogicofourculture.
Thebestwaytostudyconspiracytheorywithoutswallowingonetheorywholeistoprepareyourselfbyathoroughtraininginclasicallogic,fuzzylogic,
generalsemanticsandquiteabitofZen-Sufihumor,untilyouhaveinternalizedtherealizationthatUniverseisinfinitechaosandanymodelyoumakeata
datecannotpossiblycontainallofitbutonlyrepresentsthemixtureofyourknowledgeandignoranceatthatdate.
PHF:YourecentlyjoinedtheBoardofAdvisorsoftheFullyInformedJuryAssociation.Whyisthisgroupsoimportantinyourestimation?
RAW:Well,afterIquittheACLUIhadtofindsomeoutletformyenergies.(TheACLUhasdecidedthey'reinfavorofdiscriminationagainstcertain
groups.I'mnotinfavorofdiscriminationagainstanygroups,soIhadtowithdraw.)
TheFullyInformedJuryAssocationseemstomethebestsafeguardagainsttheabsolutetyrannyofthefederalgovernment,towardwhichweseemtobe
headed.Whenjuriesknowthattheyhavetheright,bothdejureanddefacto,tonullifyanylawtheyfindobnoxiousortrannical,wehavearealchanceof
withstandingtheincreaseofomnipresentStatemeddlingineveryaspectofourlives.(They'repryingintoourbladdersalready.Whenevenyourbladderis
notprivateandsafefrominvasion,howmuchlibertyisleftconcretely?)
Defactoanyjurycanvoteastheydamnedplease,andtheyoftendo.Dejure,theyhavetherighttoacquitwhenthelawitselfseemsunfairorunjustto
them,butjudgesoftenlieandtellthemtheydonothavethisright.FIJAisaroundtospreadthewordthatjurieshavehadthisrightsinceMagnaCartaand
stillhavethisright,andanyjudgewhosaysotherwiseisaliarandtyrant.
Ofcourse,asanadvocateofjurynullification,Ialsobeliveintheequallyoldtraditionthatjuriesshouldbechosentotallyatrandom.Intheearlydays,a
jurywasthefirsttwelvementhebailiffsawwhenhewalkedoutthedoorofthecourt.Itshouldbebothmenandwomen,ofcourse,butitshouldremain

equallyrandom.Thelawyersshouldhavenoabilitytostackajury.Thetraditionalsystem,withitsrandomfactor,comesascloseashumanlypossibleto
obtainingatruecrosssectionofthecommonsense,thecommondecencyandthecommonhumanityofthepeople,andItrustthosefactors,ifnotblindly
thewayCatholicstrustthepope,certainlyalotmorethanItrustlawyersandjudges.
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I[PaulKrassner]firstmetBobWilsonin1959.The'60scounterculturewasinitsembryonicstage,explodingoutofthe
blandness,repressionandpietyoftheEisenhower-Nixonadministration,ReverendNormanVincentPeale'spositive
thinkingandSnookyLansonsinging"It'saMarshmallowWorld"onTV'sLuckyStrikeHitParade.
Wilsonhadwrittenhisfirstarticle,"TheSemanticsofGod,"whichIeagerlypublishedinTheRealist."TheBeliever,"he
wrote,"hadbetterfacehimselfandasksquarely:DoIliterallybelieve'God'hasapenis?Iftheanswerisno,thenitseems
onlylogicaltodroptheridiculouspracticeofreferringto'God'as'He.'"Wilsonthenstartedwritingaregularcolumn,
"NegativeThinking."
HisbooksincludeTheIlluminatus!Trilogy(withRobertShea)theCosmicTriggertrilogy,TheNewInquisition,the
Schrodinger'sCattrilogy,PrometheusRising,TheWallsCameTumblingDown,WilhelmReichinHell,NaturalLaw,Sex
andDrugs,andEverythingisUnderControl:AnEncyclopediaofConspiracyTheories.
Heisalsothesubjectofafeature-lengthdocumentarymoviebyLanceBauscher,MaybeLogic:TheLivesandIdeasof
RobertAntonWilson,featuring23differentBobs,TomRobbins,R.U.Sirius,GeorgeCarlinandmyself.Formore
information,gotomaybelogic.com.
In1964,IpublishedWilson'sfront-coverstory,"TimothyLearyandHisPsychologicalH-Bomb.""Thefuturemaydecide,"he
began,"thatthetwogreatestthinkersofthe20thCenturywereAlbertEinstein,whoshowedhowtocreateatomicfissionin
thephysicalworld,andTimothyLeary,whoshowedhowtocreateatomicfissioninthepsychologicalworld.Thelatter
discoverymaybemoreimportantthantheformertherearesomereasonsforthinkingthatitwasmadenecessarybythe
former...."
IherebynominateBobWilsonasthethirdgreatestthinkerofthe20thCentury,whocontinuestoexplorehisconsciousness
andcommunicatehisideasandcauses---withpassion,wit,imaginationandinsight---intothe21stCentury.Thisinterview
wasconductedbytheelectronicmagicofe-mail.
Q.You'vewritten34bookswiththeaidofpot.Couldyoudescribethatprocess?
A.It'sratherobsessive-compulsive,Ithink.Iwritethefirstdraftstraight,thenrewritestoned,thenrewritestraightagain,then
rewritestonedagain,andsoon,untilI'mabsolutelydelightedwitheverysentence,orirateeditorsstartremindingmeabout
deadlines---whichevercomesfirst.HemingwayandRaymondChandlerhadsimilarcompulsionsbutusedthewrongdrug,
booze,andtheybothattemptedsuicide.PapasucceededbutpoorRaydidn'tandjustlookedlikeasloppyalcoholic.(He
triedtoshoothimselfintheheadandmissed.)Faulkneralsohadobsessivecomponentsanddiedbyfallingoffahorse,
drunk.Idon'tthinkboozeisaverysafedrugforusobsessive-compulsives.AlmostasbadasbecomingknownasaSage.
Bytheway,CongressshouldimpeachDubyaandimpoundAsaHutchinson.
Q.ThepisspolicereadHighTimes.Whatwouldyouliketotellthem?
A."Youareallequallyblessed,equallyempty,equallycomingBuddhas."Butsomeofthemaresuchassholesitwilltakea
longtimetogetfromtheretohere.
Q.ColumnistClarencePagerecentlywroteabouttheDEAraiding"alegitimatehealthco-operative[WAMM,theWo/Men's
AllianceforMedicalMarijuana]thatwastreatingmorethan200patients,someofthemterminallyill,inSantaCruz.
Snatchingmedicineoutofthehandsofseriouslyillpatientssoundsliketerrorismtome.Inthiscaseitwasfederally
sponsoredandtaxpayer-financed."TellmeaboutyourownrelationshipwithWAMM.
A.Ithoughtyou'dneverask.LongbeforeIneededWAMM,ValerieCoral,thefounder,cameregularlytomyFinnegans
Wakereading/rappinggroupandIconsideredherincrediblybright.AsIlearnedaboutherWAMMactivities,distributingpot
toterminalcancerandAIDSpatients,sittingwiththem,givingloveandsupportduringthedeathprocess,Idecidedshewas
alsoasaint.IneverthoughtIwouldbecomeanotherWAMMpatient.Mypost-poliosyndromehadbeenaminornuisance
untilthensuddenlytwoyearsagoitflaredupintoblazingpain.MydoctorrecommendedmarijuanaandnamedWAMMas
thesafestandmostlegalsource.Bythen,IthinkIwasontheedgeofsuicidethepainhadbecomelikeapermanent
abscessedtoothintheleg.Nobodycanorshouldendurethat.ThankstoValerieandWAMM,Ineverhavethatkindoftorture
formorethananhourthesedays.IpoponeoftheirpainpillsandI'mupandbackattheiMacin,well,ifnotanhour,thenat
mosttwohours.Bytheway,CongressshouldimpeachDubyaandimpoundAsaHutchinson.OrdidIsaythatalready?
Q.Ithinkyoudid.
A.Well,itbearsrepeating.
Q.WhentheCityCouncilstagedapublicgiveawayofmedicalmarijuana,aDEAagentasked,"Whatkindofmessageare
cityofficialssendingtotheyouthofSantaCruz?"Howwouldyouanswerhim?

A."ThepowersnotdelegatedtotheUnitedStatesbytheConstitution,norprohibitedbyittotheStates,arereservedtothe
Statesrespectively,ortothepeople."Ididn'tinventthatIfounditinthebackofmydictionary,inadustyoldhistorical
documentcalled"U.S.Constitution,"whichDubyaseeminglyhasneverheardof,butit'ssupposedtobetherulesofour
government.Iwishmorepeoplewouldlookatthatdocument,becauseithasalotofotherradicalideasthatseemworth
thinkingabout.LookitupbeforetheBushCrimeFamilyforcesdictionarypublisherstoremoveit.Congressshouldimpeach
DubyaandimpoundAsaHutchinson.Ordoesthisbegintosoundlikeanechochamber?
Q.Howdoesallthattieinwithyournewbook,TSOG:TheThingThatAtetheConstitution?First,whatdoesTSOGmean,
andhowdoyoupronounceit?
A.TSOGmeansTsaristOccupationGovernmentandIpronounceitTSOG,soitsoundslikeamonsterinaLovecraftstory.
ThebookpresentstheevidencethateversincetheCIA-Nazi-Tsaristallianceofthe1940s,theTsaristshavetakenoveras
the"brains"oftheControlSystemandAmericahasbecomeaTsaristnation,withtheConstitutiononlyknowntothosewho
peekinthebackoftheirdictionaries,likeIdid.Hell,weevenhaveanofficialTsarandhehasthealleged"right"---oratleast
thepower---tocomebetweenmydoctorandme,anddecidehowmuchexcruciatingpainIshouldsufferbeforedying.What
next?Ishegoingtoruleoncontroversialquestionsinphysicsandastronomy?Inmathematicalsettheory?Inbiology?
Believeme,there'snoTsarmentionedintheConstitution.Personaldoctor/patientmattersarelefttotheindividuals.You
see,thiswassupposedtobeafreecountry,notaTsaristdespotism.
Q.YouwerebroughtupasaCatholicandbecameaMarxistwhenyouwere16.Whatdisillusionedyouabouteachofthose
beliefsystems?
A.Theirrigidity.AllrigidBeliefSystems(B.S.)censorandwarptheprocessesofperception,thoughtandevenempathy.
Theyliterallymakepeoplebehavelikebadly-wiredrobots.PhilipK.Dicknoticedthistoo,andworriedalotaboutthe
possiblerobotsamongus.Somepeoplethinkhewascrazy,butI'venevermetanybodywithrigidbeliefswhoseemedfully
humantome.Philgotitright:alotofthemdoactlikerobots.Especiallyingovernmentofficesandchurches.Gort,Dubya
maradanikto,dig?
Q.WhatwasthepurposeofwhatyoucalltheChristianconspiracy?
A.Well,IregardtheBillofRightsastheresultofaconspiracybytheintellectualfreemasonsoftheEnlightenmentEra.It's
alwayshadaprecariousexistencebecauseoftherivalChristianconspiracytorestorethedarkages---Inquisitions,witchhuntsandall.WiththeTsaristtake-over,theChristiansappeartohavewon.NotasingleclauseintheBillofRightshasn't
gotteneitherdilutedortotallyreversed.
Q.Whyareyousoskepticalaboutorganizedskepticism?
A.LikeIkeepsaying,rigidBeliefSystemsfrightenmeandmakemethinkofrobots,or"humanoids"---somekindacreepy
mechanismlikethat.OrganizedskepticismintheU.S.todaycontainsnotrueskepticsinthephilosophicalsense.They
seemlikejustanothergangofdogmaticfanaticsatwarwithalltheothergangsofdogmaticfanatics,and,ofcourse,withus
modelagnosticsalso.LookattheCommitteeforScientificInvestigationofClaimsoftheParanormal.Theyneverdoany
ScientificInvestigationatall,atall.Why?Myguessisthat,liketheInquisitorswhorefusedtolookthroughGalileo's
telescope,theyhaveadeepfearthatsuchresearchmightupsettheirdogmas.
Q.What'sthebasisofyourobsessionwithHannibalLecter?
A.HannibalLecter,M.D.,please.Inthebooks,heseemsoneofthegreatestcreationsinliteraturetome.IadmireThomas
HarrismorethananynovelistsinceJamesJoyce.EverythingaboutDr.Lecterislikeableandevenadmirableexceptthat
oneNastyHabit[cannibalism],butthathabit'ssointolerable,eventolibertarians,wecanneverforgetitevenwhenwefind
himmostlikeableandmostadmirable.AparadoxlikethatcaninspirePh.D.candidatesfor1,000years.Imean,howcan
youresistapsychiatristwhotellsaLesbianpatient,asHannibaldidonce,"There'snothingwrongwithbeingweird.You
havenoideahowweirdIam"---andreallymeansit?Inthefilms,ofcourse,Dr.Lecteralsohasthestupendouscontribution
ofintelligenceandeeriecharmonlyAnthonyHopkinscanproject.Bytheway,GodblessValerieCoralandGoddamnAsa
Hutchinson.
Q.Ithoughtyoudon'tbelieveinGod?
A.Ihaveno"beliefs,"onlyprobabilitiesbutIwasnotspeakingliterallythere.Apoeticflourish,asitwere.
Q.Iknowyoudon'tbelieveinlifeafterdeath,butI'mintriguedbythenotionthat,during42yearsofmarriage,youandArlen
imprintedeachother'snervoussystems.Couldyouelaborateonthat?
A.Idon't"believe"inspiritualism,butthatdoesnotkeepmefromsuspectinganunbreakablelinkbetweenthosewhohave
loveddeeply.Toavoidsoundingesoteric,letmeputitinnitty-grittyterms.IliterallycannotlookatamovieonTVwithout
knowingwhatshe'dsayaboutit.Forinstance,ifafilmstartsoutwellandendsupamess,Icanvirtually"hear"hersaying,
"Well,theyhadoneStoryConferencetoomany...."
Q,WouldyourelatethetaleofArlenandtheEncyclopedias?
A.Shelikedtocollectoldencyclopediasfromsecond-handbookstores,andatonepointwehadeightofthem.WhenI
wrotemyfirsthistoricalnovel---backin1980,beforeIwasonline---Iusedthemoftenasaresearchtool.Forinstance,I
learnedthattheBastillewaseither90feethighor100feetor120feet.ThisledmetoformulateWilson's22ndLaw:
"Certitudebelongsexclusivelytothosewhoonlylookinoneencyclopedia."
Q.HowhastheInternetchangedyourlife?
A.Ithasfeltlikeaneurologicalquantumjump.Notonlydoestheword-processingsoftwaremakemycompulsiverewritinga
loteasierthanifIstillhadtocutmywordsonrocksoruseatypewriterorretreattosimilarbarbarism,butthee-mailfunction

providesmostofmysociallifesinceIbecame"disabled."IdomostofmyresearchontheWorldWideWeb,getmyanswer
inminutesanddon'thavetohuntlaboriouslythroughmylibraryforhours.Ithasimprovedmylifeathousandways.Ialso
haveanotionthatInternetwilleventuallyreplacegovernment.

Q.Howdoyoudiscernbetweenconspiracyandcoincidence?
A.ThewayMr.andMrs.Godzillamakelove:verycarefully.
Q.AdinnerpartywasscheduledforMarch31,1981,thedayafteranassassinationattemptonRonaldReagan,which,if
successful,wouldhaveelevatedVicePresidentandformerCIAchiefGeorgeBushtothepresidency.Thedinnerwas
immediatelycancelled.ItwouldhavebeenheldatthehomeofNeilBush,andaguestwastobeScottHinckley,brotherof
thewould-bekiller.Hinckley'sfatherandBushwerefriendsandfellowoilindustrialists.APRfirmissuedastatement:"This
horriblecoincidencehasbeendevastatingtotheBushFamily.Ourcondolencesgoouttoallinvolved.Andwehopetoget
thematterbehindusassoonaspossible."CongressmanLarryMacDonaldwastheonlylegislatorwhodemandedan
investigation,buthisplanecrashed.Whattayathink---coincidenceorconspiracy?
A.Tome,itlooksatfirstglancelikecoincidencebyabout75%probability.Imean,whowouldbedumbenoughtousean
assassinwithsuchobviouslinkstohisemployers?Butthenagain,theBushCrimeFamilyseemtothinktheycangetaway
withanything,fromS&Lfraudtostealinganelectionintheclearlightofdaywiththewholeworldwatching.Theymusthave
anevenloweropinionoftheintelligenceoftheAmericanpeoplethanIdo.MaybeIshouldchangetheprobabilitydownto
about50%.Iguessthisdoesdeservefurtherinvestigation,bysomebodywhodoesn'tflyinairplanes.
Q.IshmaelReedsaid,"Thehistoryofcivilizationisthehistoryofwarfarebetweensecretsocieties."Doyouagree?
A.Yesandno.Iwouldsaythereisnohistory,singularonlyhistories,plural.Thewarfarebetweensecretsocietiesisa
history,onethatbothIshmaelandIhaveexplored.Therealsoexistsahistoryofclasswar,ahistoryofwar(orcompetition)
betweengenepools,ahistoryofprimate/caninerelations,etc.,adinfinitum.Noneofthemcontradictstheothers,exceptin
theheadsofaristotelianlogicians,orIdeologists.Theyeachsupplementalltheothers.
Q.YouandIhavesomethingincommon.LyndonLaRouchehasrevealedthetruthabouteachofus:You'rereallythesecret
leaderoftheIlluminatiandIwasbrainwashedattheTavistockInstituteinEngland.Doyouthinkheactuallybelievessuch
things,orisheconsciouslycreatingfiction,justastheFBI'scounter-intelligenceprogramdid?
A.Istilldon'tunderstandsomeofmycomputer'sinnardsandyouexpectmetoexplainabizarrecontraptionlikethebrainof
LyndonLaRouche?Icanonlyhazardthatheseemsmoreacaseforabilespecialistthanapsychiatrist.
Q.WhatwasLaRouche'sfactoidabouttheQueenofEngland?
A.HesaidLizsentAldousHuxleyandAlanWattsoverheretodestroyuswithOrientalreligionsanddrugs,soEngland
couldbecomethetopSuper-Poweragain.IfyoutookLizandEnglandoutandputFuManchuandtheThirdWorldinher
place,itwouldmakeagreatmatineethriller.IthinkDubyalivesinthatfilmwithMickeyandGoofyandOsamabinLadenand
DarthVader.
Q.What'sthemostbizarreconspiracytheoryyou'vecomeacross?
A.AgroupcalledChristiansAwakeclaimsRonaldReaganwasaGayfreemasonandthathefilledthegovernmentand
courtswithotherGayfreemasons.IsupposetheyletClarenceThomasinasaconcessiontotheGayPrinceHallodge.
Q.Andwhatwouldbetheleastknownconspiracytheory---Imean,that
youknowof?
A.TheChurchofPositiveAccordbelieves---andIthinktheymakeadamnedgoodcase---thattheGodoftheBibleis
corporeal,notspiritual.Inudderwoids,heeatsandshitsjustlikeyouandme.And,contrarytomy1959heresies,he
definitelyhasapenis.Heevenhasboogers:theyproclaimedthatinaninterviewwith[SubGeniusChurchreverend]Ivan
Stang.Theypointoutthatall"spiritual"ideasofGodderivefromGreekphilosophy,nottheBible,andclaimthatgaseous
Greekgodhasbeenpromotedbyaconspiracyofintellectuals.Justre-readtheBiblewiththatgridanditmakessense,ina
StoneAgesortofway.Hewalks,Hetalks,He'saserialkiller,andinthesequelHeevenknocksupateen-agechick.
Q.Yourreaderscan'talwaysdiscern---whenyouwriteabouttheIlluminati,forexample---whetheryou'resharinginformation
orsatirizingreality.Doesitmakeanydifference?
A.ToquoteMadonna,"I'monlykidding---not."AddmyCelticsenseofhumortoNielsBohr'smodelagnosticismandout
comesmyneo-surrealistnovelsand"post-modern"criticism.
Q.I'vehadmanyoccurrencesofsatiricalprophecy,wheresomethingIinventedturnedouttobecomereality.Hasthat
happenedwithyou?
A.Well,inIlluminatus!(published1975),terroristsattackthePentagonandonlysucceedinblowingaholeinoneofthefive
sides.Soundfamiliar?Also,inSchrodinger'sCat(published1981),terroristsblowupWallStreet.Idon'tregardeitherof
those"hits"asprecognitionoreven"intuition,"justcommonsense.ItseemedobvioustomethattheTSOGcouldnotrun
amokaroundtheplanet,invadingandbombingdamnedneareverybody,withoutsomebodyfiringbackeventually.
Q.Here'saconfession.InmyarticleontheconspiracyconventioninHighTimes,Ididareverseofsatiricalprophecy.Ihad
onceaskedMaeBrussell,thequeenofconspiracyresearchers,whytheconspiratorsdidn'tkillher,andsheexplainedthat
agentsalwaysworkonaneed-to-knowbasis,buttheywouldreadherworkandshowupwherevershespoke,inorderto
getapeekatthebigpicture,becauseitwas"asafetyvalveforthem,"shesaid,"onhowfarthingsaregoing."Iasked,"Are
yousayingthattheintelligencecommunityhasallowedyoutofunctionpreciselybecauseyouknowmorethananyofthem?"
Andshereplied,"Exactly."Well,inmyHIGHTIMESsatire,Iputthosewordsintothemouthofsomewhatfraudulent

conspiracyresearcherDavidIcke.Anyway,myquestionis,doyouthinktheconspiratorsallowyoutolivebecauseyouknow
toomuch?
A.Idoubtit.Idon'tthinkthey'veeverheardofme.Theydon'treadbooks.
Q.Theoriginalmeaningofconspiracywas"tobreathetogether."What'syourpersonaldefinitionofconspiracy?
A.Whenmeandmefriendsgitstogethertoadvanceourcommoninterests,that'sanaffinitygroup.WhenanycrowdIdon't
likedoesit,that'sagoddamconspiracy.
Q.AftermyHIGHTIMEScolumnontheProphetsConference,inwhichIreferredtoyouas"theirreverentbadboyatthisohso-politeconference,"whywereyoudisinvitedfromspeakingatfutureProphetsConferences?
A.AlotofmyfansthinkIgotbootedforlackofrespectforHisRoyalFraudulencyGeorgeII.Itakethatasanassertion
beyondproofordisproof.ThemanagerssaiditwasforfindingaJoyceanepiphanyinaSpikeLeemovie.Itakethatasan
assertionbeyondevencomprehension.
Q.I'dliketohearaboutyour---perhapspsychotic?---experiencewithhigherconsciousnessandtheresultingepiphany.
A.Ihavehadnotonebutmanyseemingencounterswithseeminglynonhumanintelligences.ThefirstwasaChristmastree
thatlovedme---lovedmemorethanmyparentsormywifeormykids,orevenmydog.Iwasonpeyoteatthetime.Withand
withoutotherdrugs---forinstancebyCabala---IhaveseeminglycontactedamedievalIrishbard,anancientChinese
alchemist,anextraterrestrialfromtheSiriussystem,andagiantwhiterabbitcalledthepookorpookahfromCountyKerry.I
finallyacceptedthatifyoualreadyhaveamulti-modelontologygoingintotheshamanicworld,you'regoingtocomeoutwith
multi-modelresults.AsWilson'sFourthLawsez,"Withsufficientresearchyouwillfindevidencetosupportyourtheory."SoI
settledonthemagickrabbitasthemodelnobodycouldtakeliterally,notevenmyself.TherealshockercamewhenI
discoveredthatmygrandmother'speople,theO'Lachlanns,camefromKerryandallegedlyhaveaclanpookahwho
protectsusfrombecomingEnglishbyaddingperiodicdosesofweirdnesstoourlives.
Q.Thededicationinmybook,MurderAttheConspiracyConventionandOtherAmericanAbsurdities,reads:"Thisoneis
forRobertAntonWilson---guerrillaontologist,part-timepost-modernist,DamnedOldCrank,myweirdestfriendandfavorite
philosopher."Sincethesearealltermsyou'veusedtolabelyourself,wouldyouexplainwhateachonemeans?
A.Well,Ipickedup"guerrillaontology"fromthePhysics/ConsciousnessResearchGroupwhenIwasamemberbackinthe
1970s.Physicistsmoreusuallycallit"modelagnosticism,"anditconsistsofneverregardinganymodelormapofUniverse
withtotal100%beliefortotal100%denial.FollowingKorzybski,Iputthingsinprobabilities,notabsolutes.Igivemostof
modernphysicsover90%probability,theLochNessMonsteraround50%probabilityandanythingtheStateDepartment
saysunder5%probability.AsBuckyFullerusedtosay,"Universeisnonsimultaneouslyapprehended"---nobodycan
apprehenditallatonce---sowehavenoguaranteethattoday'sbestmodelwillfitwhatwemaydiscovertomorrow.Myonly
originalityliesinapplyingthiszeteticattitudeoutsidethehardestofthehardsciences,physics,tosoftersciencesandthen
tonon-scienceslikepolitics,ideology,juryverdictsand,ofcourse,conspiracytheory.Also,Ihaveastrongaversion,almost
anallergy,toBeliefSystems,orB.S.---aconvenientabbreviationIowetoDavidJayBrown.Aneurolinguisticdiethighin
B.S.andlowininstrumentaldataeventuallyproducesPermanentBrainDamage,alurchinggait,blindnessandhairypalms
likeawerewolf.
ThenIstartedcallingmyselfapost-modernistafterthatlabelgotpinnedonmeintwodifferentbooks,oneonmy
sociologicalworksandoneonmyscience-fiction.ThenIreadsomeofthepost-modernistsanddecidedtheywereonly
agnosticaboutotherpeople'sdogmas,nottheirown.SothenIswitchedtoDamnedOldCrank,whichseemstosuitmy
casebetterthaneitherofthepreviouslabels.Besides,oncemyhairturnedsnowywhite,somepeoplewantedtopromote
metoaSage,andIhadtoblockthat.It'smoredangeroustoawriterthanbooze.Bytheway,Congressshouldimpeach
DubyaandimpoundAsaHutchinson.
Q.Sinceyoubelievethattheuniverseisindifferent,whyareyouanoptimist?
A.Itmayhavegeneticorigins---someofusbounceupagainnomatterwhatwegethitwith---butasfarasIcanrationalizeit,
nobodyknowsthefuture,sochoosingbetweenpessimismandoptimismdependsontemperamentasmuchas
probabilities.PsychologistJohnBarefoothasstudiedthisextensivelyandconcludesthatoptimistsliveabout20%longer
thanpessimists.Whentheoutcomeremainsunknown,whyshouldImakethebetthatkeepsmemiserableandshortensmy
life?Ipreferthegamblethatkeepsmehigh,happy,andcreative,andalsoincreaseslifespan.It'sliketheadvantageofpot
overaspirin.Potnotonlykillspainbetter,buttheHighbooststheimmunesystem.Highandhappymoodsprolonglife,
miserableandmasochisticmoodsshortenit.
Q.Recently,whenIspokeatacollegecampus,astudentaskedwhatIwantedmyepitaphtobe.Ireplied,"Wait,I'mnot
finished."Whatdoyouwantyourepitaphtobe?
A.IhaveordainedinmywillthatmybodywillgetcrematedandtheashesthrowninJerryFalwell'sface.Theexecutorofmy
willshouldthenshoutonewordonly:"Gotcha!"

RobertAntonWilsonisthecoauthor(withthelateRobertShea),oftheundergroundclassicTheIlluminatus!Trilogy
whichwonthe1986PrometheusHallofFameAward.HisotherwritingsincludeSchrodinger'sCatTrilogy,called"themost
scientificofallsciencefictionnovels"byNewScientist,andmanynonfictionworksofFuturistpsychologyandguerilla
ontology.Wilson,whoseeshimselfasaFuturist,author,andstand-upcomic,regularlygivesseminarsatEsalanandother
NewAgecenters.Wilsonhasmadebothacomedyrecord(SecretsofPower),andapunkrockrecord(TheChocolate
BiscuitConspiracy),andhisplay,WilhelmReichinHell,hasbeenperformedthroughouttheworld.HisnovelIlluminatus!
wasadaptedasa10-hoursciencefictionrockepicandperformedunderthepatronageofHerMajestyQueenElizabethIIat
GreatBritain'sNationalTheatre,whereWilsonappearedinaspecialcameorole.HeisalsoaformereditoratPlayboy

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Home>Library>ReadingRoom>Interviews>PlayingKickballWithChaos

Interviews

PlayingKickballWithChaos
AnInterviewRobertAntonWilson
byFaustinBray
FromIssue#48

Championoftheunderdogandself-appointedcaretakerofconspiracytheories,withadeepphilanthropictwist,RobertAntonWilsonhas
amused,bemusedandinfusedreaderswithhiswitticismsandponderingsforalmostthirtyyears.Heisthatrarestofcreatures-afuturistwithasenseofhumor.
Cantankerous?Yes.Ornery?Certainly.Butwhileothershavefallenintojadedcynicism,Wilson'spassionforlearninghaskepthiswitrazorsharpandreadytoparry.
ChaosandBeyondisRobertAntonWilson'slatestbook.Acollectionofessaysandstoriesfromthemagazine,Trajectories,thecastofcharactersthebookpresentsis
pureWilson:DeeScottAppel,BarbaraMarxHubbard,TimothyLeary,LinusPauling,RobertNewport,EdwardKelloggIII,PeterRussel,GeorgeCarlinandevenEd
McMahon.
Aprolificwriterwhotakesdelightinturningamirroronsocietysothatitcan,foramoment,seeitselfandhopefullylearnsomething,Wilsondetestspoliticalcorrectness
asjustanotherformoffascism.Refusingtopullhispunches,hecanbe,ashisinitialsindicate,RAW.

Peopleseemquicktoagreethattheworldisbecomingmoreandmorechaotic,butwhattheymeanwhentheyusethewordisnotalwaysclear.
RobertAntonWilson:WhatI'mtalkingaboutistheupsurgeofthetotallyunpredictable,asystemthatmaybedeterministbutstillcan'tbepredicteduntilafteryousee
whatit'sdone.AmathematiciannamedTheodoreGordondidapaperaboutthreeyearsagoshowingthatchaosincreaseswhereinformationflowincreases.Thisis
somethingI'vebeenwritingaboutforyears,thefactthatinformationisincreasingfasterallthetime.Forexample,inthe1,500yearsbetweenChristandLeonardoda
Vinci,wehadonedoubling.Nowinformationisdoublingeveryeighteenmonths.Thatmeansthereismoreandmorechaos.Comingoutofthischaosaresome
astoundingthings:thefalloftheBerlinWall,theriseofNelsonMandelatothepresidencyofSouthAfrica,treatiesbeingworkedonbetweentheIsraelisandthePLO,
andtheIRAandtheBritishgovernment.Allofthesethingsweretotallyunpredictablebeforetheyhappened.
Thoserepresentthesunnysideofchaos.Whataboutthedarkside?
RobertAntonWilson:OneexamplethatIgiveistheMcMartinpre-schoolsatanismcase,whereoverahundredteachersandclergymenwereaccusedofrunninga
satanic,childpornographyring.Afterprolongedinvestigation,noevidenceofapornographyringwaseverdiscovered,noevidenceofsatanismwasdiscovered.Outof
ahundredaccusedteachers,thepoliceindictedseven,droppedchargesagainstfiveandultimatelybroughtonlytwototrial.Thejuryrefusedtoconvicteventhosetwo.
Itseemstohavebeentotalhysteria,buttherearestillpeopledowntherewhosay"nosmokewithoutfire,itcouldn'tallhavebeenhysteriasomebodymusthavebeen
guiltyofsomething."Butit'stheclassiccase,justlikeSalemallover,andtherehavebeenthirty-threeothercases,notaswellpublicized.IcaughtasociologistinChaos
andBeyondwhostudiedthirty-threeofthesepanicsofthatsortcomingoutofnowhere,peoplejustgoingnutsallatonce.Ithappens.LookatNaziGermany.It's
incredible.Youchangesocietyrapidlyenough,andmakepeopleuncertainenough,andsomeofthemwilljumpontothecraziestdamnbeliefsystems.That'spartofthe
chaoswe'regoingthrough,too.Besidethesatanichysteria,there'stheUFOabductions.Thousandsofpeoplehaveclaimedtheyhavebeenabductedandsexually
molestedbylittleGreybuggersfromouterspace.Theideaseemstobethatthesecharactersgetintosomeparticularlyviciousneurochemicalseverysooften.Then,
aboutthetimethey'rereallyzonkedonthem,oneofthemsays,"Hey,Igotagreatidea.Let'sgetintheflyingsaucerandzoomacoupleofbillionlightyearsoverto
EarthandhaveanothergoatWhitleyStrieber'sass.Andthere'spoorWhitleysufferingagain,andnobodytakeshimseriously.I'msorry,butI'moneoftheguyswho
thinkshe'shavingterribleexperiences,butIdon'ttakethemliterally.That'spartofasociologicaltrajectory,too.There'smoreandmoreoftheseUFOabductioncases
reported.
Whatarethesignsofchaosandwhydoyouthinkit'shappeningnow?
RobertAntonWilson:Informationisdoublingfasterthaneverbeforeandtheamountofavailableenergyishigherthaneverbefore.Thesocialsystemsexistingonthe
planetareallinadequatetomanagethekindoftechnologyandthekindofenergyeconomywe'vegotnow.Radicalchangesareneeded.Andnaturallyyou'vegota
varietyofpeopleofvaryingdegreesofsanityandrationality,withdifferentprogramsaboutwhatneedstobedone.Buteverybodyknowsthatsomethingneedstobe
done.
Whatdoyouthinkofyourroleintermsofgatheringalloftheinformationthatyoudo?Whatisityou'reservinginourcultureatthistime?
RobertAntonWilson:Ipickedupthephrase"guerrillaontology"fromsomebodyinthephysics/consciousnessresearchgroupbackintheseventies.Iforgetwho
inventedit-JackSarfati,NickHerbert,FritjofCapra,SaulPaul-Sirag,FredWolf,ElizabethRausherIforgetwhothehellcameupwiththeterm"guerillaontology,"but

IlikeditalotandI'vebeenusingittodescribemyownactivities.Ithasadistinctfamilyresemblancetodeconstructionism,exceptthedeconstructionistsonlyseemto
wanttodeconstructWesterncivilization.I'minterestedindeconstructingtherigidthoughtpatternsthatkeepusfromachievingourfullpotentialandunleashingthefull
creativityofthehumanraceforsolvingit'sproblems,insteadofjustbitchingaboutthem.
Alotofpeoplefeelthisisacrescendomoment,thatweareonthethresholdofameta-jump.ColinWilsontalksaboutit,sodoesBarbaraMarx
Hubbard.It'stheideaofco-evolutionintoagreatexpansionofevolutionaryovermind.It'ssomethingthat'sgoingtostepusuptoanotherlevel.What
doyouthink?
RobertAntonWilson:I'vealwayshadastrongintuitionthatallofthisthat'sbeengoingon,fromthefirstunicellularorganismsuptothepresent,isnotallabadjoke
intendedtoendupincatastrophe.It'sgoingtohigherandhigherlevels.
Whatwouldbeagoodwayforpeopletolookatthechaosthat'sgoingonnowintermsofinformationoverload?
RobertAntonWilson:WhatItrytogetatinallofmybooks,andespeciallyinthisone,isthenotionthatwecannotsolveourproblemsbylookingaroundtofindout
who'stoblameforthemandpunishingthem.Thishasbeentriedthroughouthistory,andit'sneverproducedanyworthwhileresults.It'sledtoalotofwhatsubsequent
generationsregardedassenselesspersecutions.Alittlewhileago,beforethetapestarted,youwerewonderingwhetheritwaswarmmilkorcoldmilkthatincreases
yourtryptophan.Thisisthefirstgenerationinhumanhistorywherealargepercentageofthepopulationhavetalkedabouthowtochangetheirbrainchemistryto
functionbetter.It'snoaccidentthatwe'vegotthisincrediblybrutalandstupidwarondrugs,becauseobviouslyalotofpeoplearegoingtobeexperimentingwiththings
thegovernmentdoesn'tthinkit'ssafetoletusexperimentwith.I'msixty-two,andIkeepwaitingforthedaywhenthegovernmentthinksI'moldenoughtomakeupmy
ownmindaboutissueslikethis.ButIguessI'llhavetokeepwaiting.They'vealreadytakenmytryptophan.Nowthey'retryingtotakeawaymyvitaminC.
OneofthethingsthatstrikesmeaboutChaosandBeyondisthesenseofinformationoverloaditprovokes.
RobertAntonWilson:IwouldsaythebookcontainsasmuchinformationasIcouldpackintoonevolume.Theideawastohitthereaderwithsomuchinformationthat
theywouldexperience,inreadingthebook,whatinformationexplosionandchaosmean.Wehaven'tchangedmuchgeneticallysincethelastIceAge,butweare
changingculturally.Wehavemoreandmoreinformation.We'recreatingallsortsofdifferenttypesofculturesafterahundredthousandyearsorsoofahunter-gatherer
society.WemutatedintocitiesandthenintotheIndustrialRevolution,andnowwe'regoinginadozendifferentdirections,includingouterspace.We'recreatingwhat
TeilharddeChardincalledthe"noosphere"-amindworldthat'stotallyourownproduct.Andyetthemindworlddoeschangethematerialworld,becauseeverytimea
partofthemindworldissufficientlyaccurate,itcanbeduplicatedinthematerialworld,andwe'vegotanewtool,anewmachine,anewtechnologythatwilldothings
wecouldn'tdobefore.
RobertAntonWilson'sChaosandBeyond,TheBestofTrajectoriesisavailablefor$14.95.WritetoP.O.Box700305,SanJose,California95170.Faustin
BrayregularlycontributestoMagicalBlendwithpiecesgeneratedintheAssociationforCulturalEvolutionandSOUNDPHOTOSYNTHESIS.SOUND
PHOTOSYNTHESIShasrecentaudio/videosandbooks.FormoreinformationwriteP.O.Box2111,MillValley,CA94942orcall(415)383-6712.
>>backtoInterviewsList
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RAWPower...
ConspiraciesandalteredstatesgohandinhandwithsharpintellectintheformofRobertAntonWilson,
authorofthecultSFtrilogyIlluminatus!
Firstpublished1999inTheXFactor
byDoktorSnake
www.doktorsnake.com
ConspiraciesandalteredstatesgohandinhandwithsharpintellectintheformofRobertAntonWilson,authorofthecultSFtrilogy
"Illuminatus!."
ROBERTANTONWILSONisarguablyoneofthemostimportantandinfluentialwritersofourtimes.HisopusofworkrangesfromScience
FictionandHistoricalFictiontoeruditeandwittycommentariesonpsychology,conspiracies,theparanormalandquantumphysics.
BorninBrooklyn,NewYork,in1932,Wilsonearlyontookaninterestintechniquesofmindexpansion.ThisledhimtoexploretheGeneral
SemanticsofAlfredKorzybski,(Wilhelm)Reichiantherapy,andeventuallymarijuana,LSD,andthe"Magick"ofAleisterCrowley.
WilsonisperhapsmostfamousfortheSFtrilogy"Illuminatus!"(1975),whichheco-authoredwithRobertShea,andwhichwonthe
PrometheusAwardasa"Classic"ofSFin1986.
AsubsequentSFtrilogy,"Schroedinger'sCat"(1979),washailedbyNewScientistmagazineas"themostscientificofallsciencefiction
novels".
Ofhisnon-fictionwork,Wilson's"PrometheusRising"(1983)outlinedaworkableroadmapformindexpansion,"QuantumPsychology"
(1990)broughtpsychologyintolinewithquantumphysics,whiletheautobiographical"CosmicTrigger"trilogy(1977-1995)offeredWilson's
thoughtsonthe"universeandeverything".
Wilson'sbook,"EverythingIsUnderControl:Conspiracies,CultsandCover-ups"(1998HarperCollins,USA),co-compiledwithMiriam
JoanHill,isanextensiveA-Zofconspiracytheories.SoItooktheopportunitytoaskhimwhichofthemanyconspiraciesfloatingaroundat
presentheconsiderstobethemostplausible?
RAW:IfindgreatplausibilityinacombinationofBuckminsterFullerandEzraPound,minusPound'santi-Semitism.Iagreemostlywith
Pound'sjudgmentthatbankscurrentlyhavemorepowerthangovernmentsIdonotthinkthebanksallhaveJewishownersorservesome
"Jewishplot."IalsoacceptFuller'sverdictthatgovernmentsconsistof"sponsoredentities"-sponsoredbythebillionairesandoccasional
millionaireswhosupportthepoliticians'electioncampaigns(onehundredmillionforaSenaterace,3or4hundredmillionforpresident).
IalsoagreewithFullerthatalthoughbanksmakeupmostofthiselitetheyhavesomedegreeofco-operationandsomedegreeofrivalry
withother"hiddenrulers,"chieflytheMafia,theatomicenergycartelsandBigOil.FullercallsthisconfederationMMAO(Machievelli,Mafia,
Atoms&Oil)andIthinkthatsumsitupaswellasanylabelcan.
DOKTORSNAKE:Inbothyourfictionandnon-fiction,theideaoftheIlluminatiservesasametaphorforindividualswhohaveachieveda
high-levelofmindexpansion.But,inreality,didtheIlluminaticontinuemuchbeyondAdamWeishauptinthe18thcentury?
RAW:Idon'tclaimtoknowanythingaboutthis,butIdohaveopinions,basedon30yearsofamusing,confusingandoftenfrustratingand
puzzlingresearch.Inmyopinion,theoccult/mind-expansionsideoftheIlluminatisurvivedthroughvarious"Masonic"lodges,especiallythe
OrderofMemphisandMizraim,andstillsurvivesviatheOrdoTempliOrientisand,perhaps,afewotherlodges.Thepoliticalsideofthe
IlluminatisurvivesinourBillofRights,asfarassomebleedingremnantsoftheBillofRightshavesurvived,i.e.alive(barely)butseverely
disabled.
DOKTORSNAKE:WhatisyourviewoftheFreemasons?
RAW:Basically,IhaveafavorableviewofFreemasonry.IthinkweoweourBillofRightstoMasonicinfluence,forinstance.Ialsothinkthat
insomecasesMasoniclodgeshaveservedpoliticalends,sometimesbenignandsometimesquitemalign.Justrememberthatthelistof
knownFreemasonsincludesMozart,BenFranklin,JEdgarHoover,Voltaire,FDR,RonaldReaganandtheItalianbankownersoftheP2
lodgeofGrandOrientFreemasonrywholaundereddrugmoneyfortheMafiaandCIAinthe1970s.IthinkFreemasonrydoesnotpossess
fungibilityorhomogeneity.Itdependsonwhatlodge,whatcountryandwhatdecadeyoulookat.
DOKTORSNAKE:Duringtheearly1970syoupracticedAleisterCrowley'ssystemofMagick,whichyoufoundtobeaveryeffective
methodofmindexpansion.DoyouthinkthemagickalsystemoutlinedbyCrowleyisrelevanttotoday'sworld-oraretherefaster,more
effectivesystemsaroundnow?

RAW:Idon'tthinkonesystemworksforeverybody.IhavefoundgreatvalueinLSD,Crowley,Reichianbodywork,NLP,brainwave
machines,someSufiandyogaexercises,generalsemanticsetc.Otherpeoplewillfindsomeoftheseirksomeorstressful.Everybodyhas
tofindtheirownpath.Someseemtohavefoundvalueeveninpsychoanalysis,butIdon'tknowwhy.SomeevenfollowScientology,which
puzzlesmeevenmore.Differentscenesfordifferentgenes,differentlanesfordifferentbrains.
DOKTORSNAKE:Couldyououtlinewhatyouconsidertobetheessentialingredientsofanymindexpansionprogram?
RAW:Iwouldwantemphasisontechnique(ortechniques)andseriouspracticeofsame.Iwantnodogmaandnoguru.APerfectMaster
seemssuitableonlyforthosewhodesiretobecomePerfectSlaves.

DOKTORSNAKE:Inyouropinion,dowehaveaspiritorasoul?
RAW:Thosetermscarryconnotationsthatseemfootlesstome.Idosuspectthatwehavealocalmind,hereandnow,andanon-local
mind,everywhereandeverywhen,likethenon-localsoftwareinDavidBohm'sversionofquantumtheory.ZencallsthemLittleMindandBig
Mind.OnceyoucontactBigMind,evenbriefly,mostof"metaphysics"andmostof"materialism"seemratherunrealandbesidethepoint.
DOKTORSNAKE:OutlinedinCosmicTriggerOneishow,duringtheearly1970s,youentertainedthenotionthatyouhadsomecontact
withanETfromSirius,whichwasinsomewayconnectedwithyourhigherself-whatareyourviewsonthisnow?
RAW:IthinkImighthavecontactedtheSiriussectorofnon-localmind,ormaybeIjustneededthatmetaphorbecauseotherwiseI'dhave
noideaatallaboutwhathadhappened.AstheSufissay,whenablindmanwhohasnevertouchedwaterfallsintotheocean,heknows
somethingunthinkablehashappened,buthedoesn'tyetknowwhattocallit.
DOKTORSNAKE:Whatisyourviewonaliens-aretheyfleshandbloodETs?
RAW:Idon'tclaimtoknow,butIinclinetowardtheviewofonedeepornon-localmindappearinginvariousforms,aseditedbythebelief
system(b.s.)oftheobserver.
DOKTORSNAKE:InthelightofyourexperienceswithMagickandhallucinogens,whatisyourviewontheliteralrealityofspirits-bethey
goeticdemons,poltergeists,shamanicallies,Crowley's"Aiwass",orwhatever?
RAW:Idon'ttake"spirits"literally,butthenIdon'ttakeanythingliterally.Allofourperceptionsderivefromsub-consciouseditingand
orchestrationofthebillionsofsignalswereceivefromUniverseeverysecond.Weeditandorchestratethesignalstofitourcurrentrealitytunnel.Generalideasandscientific,religiousorphilosophicaltheoriesbasedonsuchselectiveperceptionbecomeevenmoreneatly
tailoredtoourrealitytunnel,orourcurrentb.s.(beliefsystem).Iregard"spirits,"pookahs,angelsandUFOnautsthesamewayIregardthe
restofhumanity'smentalfurniture.Ifitstaysinsomebody'smentallibrarylongenough,itservessomefunctionforthem.Itmaynotserveany
functionforme.
DOKTORSNAKE:Whataspectsofthevariousquantumtheoriesdoyoumostagreewithandwhy?Andwhichonesdoyoudisagree
with?
RAW:Tomakeexplicitwhathaslurkedimplicitlyinallmyanswers,Ihavemuchagreementforthe"modelagnosticism"createdmostlyby
NielsBohr.AsimilarmodelagnosticismappearsinthegeneralsemanticsofKorzybskiandtheethno-methodologyofGarfinkle.According
tothisviewpoint,weshouldneverbelieveinourmodelsormapsofUniversethewaymostpeoplebelieveintheirreligionorideology.
Ihaveoftendescribedbeliefasthedeathofintellect.Iprefertouseamodelonlyandalwayswhereitappearstoworkforme,andtouse
othermodelsinotherareas,andtoabandonanyandallmodelsifandwhenabettermodelcomesalong.Inoneofmypolemicalworks,The
NewInquisition,Icallbeliefinanymodel"idolatry"and"modeltheism."Istillstandbehindthat.
Afterstrongdosesofmodelagnosticism,Ifindgreatmeritinthenon-localtheoriesthathaveemergedfromBell'sTheorem,especiallyin
theworksofsuchphysicistsasWolfe,Walker,BohmandHerbert.
ApopularversionweowetoDouglasAdamsstatesitgenerallyas:"Allthingsareinterconnectedbutsomethingsaremoreinterconnected
thanothers."
Thisnon-localityideanotonlyseemstomakemoresenseofquantumweirditiesthanothermodelsdo,butitalsoexplainssomeofmy
psychedelicandMagickexperiencesbetterthananyothermodel.
IalsostronglysupporttheVonNeumann/Finklesteinideaofathree-valued"quantumlogic"(true,false,maybe)inpreferencetoAristotelian
true/falselogicbutIgobeyondphysicsingivingevenmoreweighttoKorzybski'sinfinite-valuedlogic,ascaleofprobabilitiesrunningfrom
0to10withasmanyspacesinbetweenasfitsthedata,e.g.,"Probabilityof7.03plusorminus0.05".Idon'ttotallyrejectanyquantum
model,althoughsomeseemprettyweirdtome-e.g.theideathattheuniverse"is""not"therewhennobodylooks.
DOKTORSNAKE:Whentheideasofquantumphysicsareeventuallyassimilatedintoeverydayculture,howdoyouthinktheywilleffect
themanorwomaninthestreet?
RAW:Ithinkthatwhentheideasofmodelagnosticism,theUncertaintyPrinciple,fuzzylogics,etc,becomegenerallyknownitwillcausea
socialrevolutionbiggerandmoreglobalthantheRenaissanceortheAgeofEnlightenment.Ihavenopredictionofhowsoonthiswill
occur...IfIjudgedbythepeopleImeetonmylecturetours,I'dsayithasalreadyhappened.ButifIjudgedbythatstatisticalsampleI'd
assumemarijuanalegalizationwouldhavehappenedalready,too,noneofourrecentwarswouldhaveoccurred,andtelevangelistscouldn't
getanyaudienceexceptontheComedyChannel.
Copyright:DoktorSnake
UsedwithKindPermission

RobertAntonWilson
Author,PlaywrightandMystic
TalksabouttheNatureofReality

bySanderRWolff
TheUnion
Published12/10/90

Heswrittencountlessbooks,bothfictionandnonfiction.Personalchange,quantum
physics,mysticism,conspiracyandJamesJoycearereoccurringthemesinmanyofhisworks.
RobertAntonWilson,armedwithhumor,soft-spokenenthusiasmandakeenmind,hascarved
outaplaceinliteraturethatreallydidntexistbefore.Hisfictiondoesntfiteasily
intoanycategory.
Wilsonsfirsthistoricalnovel,MasksoftheIlluminati,issetInEnglandinthelate
1800s.ItsthetaleofSirJohnBabcockwhodemonstratesthatalittleknowledgeisa
dangerousthing.Byclaimingtohaveanunderstandingoftheoccultinformationcodedinto
CloudsWithoutWater,aprivatelyprintedbookofsonnets,heunknowinglyentersintoan
initiationprocess.
"Initiationisalwaystheattempt,sometimesmoresuccessfulsometimesless,butalwaysan
attempttocreateanewImprint,"Wilsonsaid."Primitiveinitiations,byandlarge,are
moreeffectivethantheonesinthemodernworldbecauseso-calledprimitivesarewilling
togoalittlebitfurtherwiththosethings.Ifyoureadupontheinitiationritesof
AfricantribesornativeAmericantribesyoullseetheattemptistocreateapowerful
shockthatwillcreateanewimprint,tocreatethesamechemicalreleasersinthebrain
thatanear-deathexperiencewouldcreate."
InMasks,BabcockbelievesheisbeinginitiatedintoaGrandLodgeofFreeandAccepted
Masons,anancientfraternalorganization.Littledoesheknowthathesbeingmanipulated
byTheBeast,MasterTherion,666,thedrug-crazedsexfiendAleisterCrowley.Wilsonhas
studiedCrowleysworkindepthandhadafewobservations.
"ThereareessaysandlettersbyAleisterCrowleythatmakeitquiteclearthathewas
tryingtocomeupwithatechniqueofinitiationthatwouldbealotstrongerthanwhat
Freemasonswerecurrentlyusing,andoneofthethingsthatCrowleywroteaboutwas[that]
itshard,inthemodernworld,becausethecandidateisprettyclearinhisheadthat
yourenotgoingtomurderhim,whereasinprimitiveconditionstheythink,Jesus,maybe
theyaregoingtokillme."
Thenear-deathexperienceisreenactedinalmostallofhisfictionalwritings.InThe
Illuminatus!TrilogyitsGeorgeDorn,hippiejournalistforConfrontationMagazinewho
getsblownupwhilelockedupintheMadDog,Texasjail.InTheSchrodingersCatTrilogy,
however,adifferentkindofshockisemployed.
Usingcomplextheoriesfoundinthefieldofquantumphysics,Wilsoncreatesatapestryof
eigen-states,oralternaterealities,thatallexistsimultaneously.Itflingsthe
characters,andthereader,intoalternateuniversesthataremostlysimilar,butalways
withdifferencesthatchallengetheunderstandingofobjectivereality.
"LikeUlysses,itsaparalleltoHomer'sOdysseybutitsallfromthepointofviewof
quantummechanicsthereisntoneuniverse,butmany,"Wilsonsaid."Schrodingersaidthat
theonlywaytounderstandquantumphysicsisintermsoftheUpanishads,withtheconcept
ofunity,thateverything,nomatterhowdifferentitseems,itsallaspectsofonehidden
thingwedontsee.
"Ithinkthedominanttendencyinphysicsistosaythatweshouldntaskquestionsabout
theobjectiveuniverse.Allwecantalkmeaningfullyaboutistheexperimentaluniverse,
whichinvolvesus.Anymethodofobservingimposesuponthethingthestructureyoure
observingItthroughyoureye,yourmicroscope,whatever.Youcantleavetheobserver
out."

IaskedWilsonwhysomanypeoplearefearfulofin-depthanalysisofhumanexistence,and
shyawayfromphilosophyandethics.
"Peopleareafraidofanythingthatmakesthemawareofthegameelementinhumanbehavior.
Theydontwanttoknowitsagame.ItsliketheoldSufilegendaboutAllah.Hedecided
todriveeverybodycrazysohechangedthewatersothateverybodywhodrankitwouldgo
crazy.AndthenhedecidedtherewasonemanhelikedalotsohetoldhimDontdrinkthe
waterforthenextmonth!Andafterthefirstcoupleofdaysoflivingamongallthese
lunaticstheguycouldntstanditanymoreandhewentanddrankthewatertoo.Ithappens
everyday.Everydaypeoplebecomeawarewerelivinginacrazyworldandthenthey
realizetheycantlivewiththatinsightsotheygocrazythemselvessotheycanfitinto
thatworld."
AnotherelementcommontomanyofWilsonswritingsareUFOs.Inhisautobiography,Cosmic
Trigger,hespeaksofhavingafirsthandexperience.
"Thatwholebookisanaccountofself-inducedbrainchange.IoftenthinkaboutWild
Kingdomontelevision.Therewasashowthereaboutthesescientistswhoweregoingaround
plantingradiotransmittersinsidethefurofgrizzlybears.Theyshootthebearwitha
tranquilizerdartand,whilehesknockedout,theyimplanttheradiotransmitterinhim
andthentheycankeeptrackofthemigrationsandmovementsofthegrizzlybear
population.Well,onthisshowtheyshowedthisbeargoingdownandtheseguysbusy
implantingtheradiotransmitterandthebearstartedtowakeupandtheyhadtofinish
reallyquicklyandtakeoff.
"Iimaginedthebeargoingbackandtellingtheotherbears,Iwasjustmindingmyown
businessandsuddenlyIwasparalyzedandtheseunursinecreaturesstarteddoing
experimentsonmeandthenwhentheparalysisworeofftheyallgotintoamysteriouscraft
anddisappeared.Theotherswouldappointanursinecommitteetoinvestigatereports,and
theydpronouncehimcrazy."
WhilelivinginDublin,WilsonwroteWilhelmReichinHell,anamusingyetdeeply
disturbingplayaboutMansrighttobewrong.Reichwasascientistofsorts,and
developedtheoriesaboutenergieswhichbecometrappedinsidethebody,causingphysical
andmentalimpairment.
Inthemid50s,afterbeingchasedoutofEurope,ReichcametoAmerica,theLandofthe
Free,topursuehisresearch.Hewasarrested,mostofhispapersandbookswereseizedand
burned,andheeventuallydiedinprison.Intheplay,heisinamocktrial,withSatan
judgeandjury.Bound,notallowedtocallwitnessesortotestifyonhisownbehalf,the
trialescalatesintoathreeringcircus.
IaskedWilson,basedoncurrenttrends,whathethinksthefutureholdsforus.
"Iseemorerapidtransformationsoftheworld.Ithinkthingsaremovingfaster,andI
thinkthispartoftheworldwillgothroughthesamekindofflip-flopandtransformation
thattheEasternBlocnationshavegonethrough.IthinkwellgetGlasnosthere,atlast.
Lordknowsweneedit.
"Ithinkthat,whenthebodybagsstartcomingbackfromthePersianGulf,peoplewill
discoverthatsolarpowerreallyiseasytoobtain.Alltheseadstellingusthatitwould
takefortyyearstodevelopsolarpower,thoseadsareallputinbytheatomicenergy
companieswhodontwantustoclosedownthenuclearplants,andbytheoilcompanieswho
wantustogoonfightingforoil.Ithinkweregoingtogiveuponoilandnuclearand
switchovertosolarmuchfasterthananybodyexpects,oncepeoplerealizehowexpensiveit
istokeepupthesenastyhabits,likeoilandradiation.
"[TheU.S.energycompanies]arenotnearlyasentrenchedasthedictatorshipswerein
RomaniaandEastGermany,forinstance,andlookhowfasttheycollapsed.The90sare
goingtobethe60sstandingontheirhead-itshowsthatGurdjieffwasright.Ifpeople
wereawake,trulyawake,theywouldntbeabletoshipahalfmillionpeopleoverthereto
diefortheoilcompanies."
Wilsonscurrentseries,TheHistoricalIlluminatusChronicles,isprobablyhismost
complexandsubtleworktodate,buthasbeenplaguedwithproblems.Actually,onlyone
problem,butitkeepspoppingup.WhenfirstpublishedbyBluejayBooks,thefirsttwo
books,TheEarthWillShakeandTheWidowsSonwerereleased.Beforethethirdbook,
NaturesGod,couldbeprintedBluejaywentbankrupt.Nottobedeterred,hefoundLynx
BooksinNewYork.Again,afterthefirsttwowerereleased,Lynxgoesbankrupt,and
NaturesGod,alreadyprintedandsittinginawarehouse,getsdestroyedbecauseofthe
legalproceedings.

"Well,Ithinkanybodywouldfinditdiscouragingtohavetwopublishersinarowgo
bankruptonthesameseriesofbooks.Alotofpeople,whentheyhearwhathappenedaskme,
Doesitmakeyoubelieveinsomeoftheconspiracytheoriesinthenovel?andoddly
enoughitdoesnt.Imjusttooskeptical.Isuppose,ifyoutoldanybody,hereIam
writingthisseriesonconspiratorialgroupsfightingovertheworldandtwopublishersin
arowhavegonebankrupttryingtopublishit.Butrightnowthewholeseriesisduetobe
[published]byNewAmericanLibraries.Iftheygobankrupt,they'reverywellestablished
youknow,iftheygobankrupttoothenIllstarttoworry."
IndoingresearchfortheChronicles,hereliedsomewhatonencyclopediasforthe
historicaldetails.Hemadeaninterestingdiscoveryintheprocess.
"Onewontdo.Well,oneisthebestway.Thatsmy24thlaw:Certitudeispossiblefor
thosewhoonlyownoneencyclopedia.Ifyoulookattwo,youregoingtogetconfused
again,believeme.IlookeduptheheightoftheBastilleinthreeencyclopediasandgot
threedifferentfigures.SothenIdecidedthat,forthehistoricalnovels,Illonly
consultoneencyclopediasoIwontbeconfusedallthetime.
"Youhavetohaveasenseofhumortogoonwriting.Thethingsthathappen,notjusttome
buttowritersingeneral,aresoabsolutelyincrediblethatyouhaveasenseofhumorto
continue,oratleastthatstherationalization.Isuspectwritersareaddictedtowriting
andtheycantgiveitup.Itslikehavingawordjonesonyourback."

HearABriefAudioClipFromTheInterview
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RobertAntonWilson'sOwnSite

THEROCINTERVIEW:AUTHOR-FUTURIST-M.V.P.(MOSTVALUABLEPHILOSOPHER)
ROBERTANTONWILSON
By:RandyLeePayton
Dr.RobertAntonWilson,Ph.D.isaprophetoftheemergingCyber-Society.
Inaneraofrecession,AIDSandcensorship,whenthetendencyisformindandspirittocontract,thevoicesofvisionarieslikeBobWilsonareespeciallyneededif
we'reevertomakeitthroughthecurrentDarkAgestothebrightdayofNewEnlightenment.
Dr.Wilsonisanovelist(co-author,withRobertShea,oftheIlluminatus!trilogy),poet,playwriteandpsychologist(withaPh.D.fromHawthornUniversity).Dr.
Wilson'sresearcheshaveledhimintoclosecollaborationwithsuchothermajor20thcenturyfiguresasDr.TimothyLearyandIsraelRegardie.Hisnon-fictionwritings
rangefromthepotentialsofSpaceMigration,IntelligenceincreaseandLifeExtention(S.M.I.L.E.!)tocurrenthightechdevelopmentsasmindmachinesandVirtual
Reality-tech,allofwhichBobreportsoninhisnewsletterTRAJECTORIES($20yr.fromPermanentPress,P.O.Box700305,SanJose,CA95170).
Anotherre-occuringthesisinDr.Wilson'sworkisthattheindividualCANCHOOSEhis/herown'scripts,''realitytunnels,'or'metaprogramming'--acceptinganything
lessmakesusROBOTS,haphazardlyprogrammedfrombirthbyparents,school,society,etc.Thiscapturingofyourown"RealityStudio"isthesubjectofUNDOING
YOURSELFbyChristopherS.Hyatt,Ph.D.,forwhichDr.Wilsonwrotea2x4to-the-headintro,aswellasofWilson'sownPROMETHEUSRISING,COSMIC
TRIGGERandhislatest,QUANTUMPSYCHOLOGY(fromNewFalconPublications,7025E.1stAve.,#5,Scottsdale,AZ85251)allofwhichmayverywellbe
theonly'self-help'booksyou'lleverneed,ifyou'reserious.
Besideshisprolificwriting,Dr.Wilsonalsogivesseminarsandtalksaroundtheglobe,likerecentlyatCleveland'sAssociationforConsciousnessExploration's
WinterstarSymposiumthispastFebruary,whereIcaughtupwiththegooddoctorforthisROCinterview.
IbeganbyaskingBobtoexplainsomethingcalledE-prime-thepost-AristotelianuseoftheEnglishlanguage"withoutthe'is'"--tohelpbetter"relativise"thewaywe
thinkandspeak,andhopefullyhelpusallsoonevolveoutofthesuperstitiousandoftenbarbaric-mental-terrainofthecensors.
"Themapisnottheterritory.Anymapyoumakeofthecityyouliveincan'tshowthewholecity.Itwouldhavetoshowyouanditwouldhavetoshowyoudrawingthe
map,anditwouldhavetoshowyoudrawingamapofthemap....soeverymapisasimplification.Andwordsarelikemaps....andhowmuchcanyouputinasentence?
Andbecauseofthisalotofmodernscientistsbelieveweshoulddroptheword'is'entirelybecause'is'tendstoleadustoconfuseourverbalcategoriesinourheads
withthenon-verbalrealitythatweexperience.Soifyoupracticedescribingwhatyou'veactuallyseenratherthansaying'is'--likeyoucansay,'thereisadrunkcoming
downthestreet'oryoucansay'thereIseeamanapproachingwholooksdrunktome.'Oryoucansay'Iseeamanapproachingwhomayhaveabrokenlegand
needshelp.'Yourealizetherearealternativeexplanations.Onceyousay'is'youstopthinkingaboutalternativeexplanations."
ROC:Doesthiskindofmechanisticthinking,thoughperhapsservinganevolutionaryfunctionduringtheindustrialperiod,onlyservetohurtusallinthisinformation
processingera?
R.A.W.:"Yes.Youtakesomethinglikeobscenity.There'snowayofsayinghowmuchobscenityexistsinsomething.Wedon'thaveanobscenometer.Youcan'tpointan
obscenometeratamovieandsay'ohthishas50chambersofobscenity.Ohthisonehas75chambers,andhey,thisonewentallthewayupto100chambers!"
(everyonelaughs).Sowedon'thaveanymachines,wedon'thaveanything.We'renottalkingaboutanythingouttheremeasurable.We'retalkingaboutourownnervous
reactionsweprobablylearnedfromourparents.Sowhenwesay,'Thatmovieisobscene,'whatwemeanis'myparentswouldn'thavelikedthatmovie.'Soyoushould
saythat,that'saclearobservation."
ROC:You'vebeenwritingandtalkingaboutforsometime,Dr.Wilson,aboutanemergingsocietywherehightechnologyisputintheserviceofabundanceforall.
AlvanTofflerbelieveswe'rehalfwaybetweentheoldindustrialmodelandtheemerging,hightechinformationprocessingsociety.Doyouagree?
R.A.W.:We'rethere.Theproblemisthepeoplewhorunoursocietycan'tfigureouthowtomaketheadjustmentbecausethey'reusedtothiseconomyofscarcity,
whenwe'vehadaneconomyofabundancesince1974.There'sbeenmorethanenough,theyjustdon'tknowhowtorunthesocietybecausethemarketandeverything
willlosevaluewheneverybodyrealizesthere'splentytogoaround.Sincethe1930'sthey'vebeenpayingfarmersnottogrowfoodwhilepeoplearestarving.Nowif
anyonetellsyouthatthiseconomymakessenseaskthem,howsaneisaworldwherepeoplearestarvinghereandoverherepeoplearebeingpaidnottogrowthe
foodtofeedthem.Howcananythingdescribethatassanity?Oncewegetthesepower-freaksoutofthewaywiththeirscarcity-economicsandstartadjustingthe
worldtotheactualconditionofwhat'savailable,we'llfindoutthatwedon'tneedallthatcrap.Letthefarmersgrowthefoodandsellittothehungryandtheplanetcan
bequiteanUtopia.
ROC:Isthereanypracticalwaytosuggestforpeopletostartpropagatingthisidea?
R.A.W.:Understanditbetter.TohelpdothatreadthebooksofBuckminsterFullerandsubscribetoTheWorldGameInstitute(3508MarketSt.,Philadelphia,PA
19104)whichdoesayearlyupdateontheinventoryorresourcesandpublishesplansonhowtoseethattheresourcesgettothepeoplewhoneedthem.
ROC:Doyouthinkthatsuchapost-scarcitysocietywillmakecensorshipsuperfluousinalotofwaysbecausecensorshipisbasedonideologicalpowergrabs...?
R.A.W.:Censorshipischieflyintendedtokillbraincells.Whenyoudon'tgetenoughinformationbraincellsstartdying,andanythingthatcomesbetweenthebrainand
potentialinformationiskillingbraincells.Thisisnecessaryinascarcityeconomysopeoplewon'tfigureoutthathey,there'sacrowdovertherewhoareeatingallthe
foodwhilewe'restarving.Thebestthingistokeeppeoplestupidbutsincewe'repastthatstageofevolutionwedon'tneedsocialinstitutionsdesignedonlytokeepthe
peoplestupid,wecanallowthemtodeveloptheirintelligencetothefullnow.Asamatteroffact,developingourintelligencetothefullmaynownotonlybe'allowed,'
butitprobablywillprovetobeavastbenefitforallofus.
ROC:Beautiful,thankyouverymuchDoctor.

SeanCasteel
UFOJournalist

SeanCasteelearnedaBAinJournalism
fromtheUniversityofOklahoma
in1985.HehaswrittenaboutUFOs
andrelatedphenomenafortenyears.

RobertAntonWilsonQ.andA.
BySeanCasteel
Atatimewheninterestinconspiracytheoriesisatanall-timehigh,renownedauthorRobertAntonWilsonoffersusanewbookcalled"EverythingIs
UnderControl"(HarperCollins,1998)thatisbothascholarlyaswellasanentertainingencyclopediaofsomeofthereal,half-realandimaginary
conspiraciescurrentlyfloatingaroundamongtheparanoidandtheeternallyvigilant."EverythingIsUnderControl"isstructuredinanA-to-Zformat,is
heavilycross-referencedandiswritteninalivelybutclear-headedfactualstylethatattemptstomakesenseofthewhisperedrumorsandscreaming
headlinesthatcombinetoformthecurrentclimateofmistrustandsuspicion.(MiriamJoanHillservedasaresearchassistanttoWilson,andhe
acknowledgesthatherhelpinsearchingtheInternetwasinvaluable.)
Wilsonbeganhiscareerasaneditorat"Playboy,"andiscreditedwithhelpingtosteertheiranti-censorshipeditorialattitude.Hehassinceworkedasa
futurist,novelist,playwright,poet,lecturerandstand-upcomic.Amonghismorethan30books,perhapsthebestknownis"TheIlluminatus!Trilogy"
(whichheco-authoredwithRobertShea).Wilsonalsohasanawardwinningwebsiteat:http://www.rawilson.com/
WespoketoWilsonbyphoneinordertogethisexpertviewsforthisspecialissueonthenatureofconspiraciesandthewaytheyworkintherealworld.
Whilehequiteprudentlytellsusthatmuchofwhatiscalledconspiracyisoftensimplenuttiness,Wilsonalsostrikesafewchordsofsinisterrealismthat
giveinsightintowhytheAmericanpublicisoftensocertainthatsomeonesomewherereallyisconspiringagainstthem.
Q.IdidwanttotellyouIenjoyedthebookverymuch.
Wilson:Thankyou.
Q.Youhaveanexcellentsenseofhumorthatkeepsapersonengagedandsoforth.
Wilson:Withoutasenseofhumor,lifeisutterlyunbearableonthisbarbaricplanet.
Q.Yeah,Iknowwhatyou'resaying.Inyourintroduction,youquoteapollthatsaysthreeoutoffourpeoplebelievethegovernmentisengagedinat
leastsomekindsofconspiracies.Thenyougoontosaythegovernmentalsomistruststhepeopleitgoverns.Sowouldyouexpoundonthatvicious
circlehere?
Wilson:Yes.Thepeoplemistrustthegovernmentforavarietyofreasons:someofthempsychological,someofthemsociological.We'llcometothat
later.Forthepresent,we'lljustsaythatoneofthereasonsisthatthegovernmenthasbeencaughtrepeatedlytellingoutrageouslies,underboth
RepublicanandDemocraticadministrationsgoingbacktothe1950s.Andasamatteroffactyoucanfindsomeprettyoutrageousliesevenearlierthan
that.Eventually,recognitionofthisdoesdawnonalargepercentageofthepopulation.
Q.Thenyouwentontosaythatthegovernmentalsomistrustsus.
Wilson:Thegovernmenthasnoideawhoweare.ThisiswhatIcalltheburdenofomniscience.Thegovernmentissupposedtoknoweverything,butthe
powertheyhaveguaranteesthattheygenerallyknownothing.Theyneverhearanythingthatdoesn'tsuittheirprejudicesbecausenobodydarestotell
them.Thetopechelonofthegovernmenthassomuchincrediblepowerthateverybodyisterrifiedofit.Sonobodyevertellsitthetruth.Theytell
whatevertheythinkwillkeepthemfromgettingmadatthem.Sothepeopleattheverytoparetoldflatteringliesfilteredthroughseverallayersof
flatteringliarswho'vebeenliedtobythosebelowthem.Theopinionsofthecitizensnevergetthroughatall.
Ihavebeenconductingworkshopsonneuro-linguisticsandgeneralsemanticsforalongtime,decades.AndIfrequentlyaskaudiences,hasanybody

evertoldthecompleteanduttertruthwithoutreservationstoanybodyfromthegovernment?Nobodyeverputsuptheirhand.Nobodyclaimstobethat
trustinganddocileandsubmissive.Everybodyliesalittleorhidesalittlewhendealingwiththegovernment.Peoplelieasmuchastheythinkis
necessarytosurvive,togoonlivingwithoutgettingthisbeastontopofthem.Thegovernmentisarmedanddangerous.
Andsothegovernmenthasnoideawhoweareorwhatwewant.Sotheydistrustusprofoundly,becauseeverytimetheywritelawstheythinkwe're
goingtolike,wedon'tlikethem.Andsothey'recontinuallyrunningintooppositionfromus.Andtheydon'tthinkwehaveanyrighttomeddleinourown
affairsanyway,tobeginwith,becausethey'resupposedtobethegovernors.We'reonlysupposedtobethesubjectsortheserfs.TheConstitutionsays
they'reourservants,butnoneofthembelieveit.Theythinkthey'reourMasters,andtheyactthatway.
Q.Youalsotalkaboutthegovernment'sresponsetoitsowninabilitytotrustusistocreatefurtheroppressionswhichthenamplifiesthemistrustofthe
people,anditbecomeslikeaviciouscircle.
Wilson:Themoretheyspyonus,themoreparanoidmorepeoplebecomeaboutthem.Whentheyspyonourveryinnards,ourbladderandurine,we're
beyondthestageoftheGestapoorKGBwe'reintherealmofKafka.Andthemoreparanoidpeoplebecome,themorethey'relikelytoresortto
hostilegesturesliketheOklahomaCitybombing,forinstance.Andsomethingevenworsethanthatmaybecomingdownthepike.Mostpeopleinthis
countrydon'ttrustthegovernment,areterrifiedofitandkindofwishitwouldgoaway.Andthegovernment,accordingly,doesn'ttrustus.AsBertold
Brechtoncesaid,"Whydon'ttheyfindanotherpeopleandgogovernthem?"
Buttheycan'tfindanotherpeopletogogovern.Theyinsistontryingtogovernusevenwhiletheydon'ttrustus.Sothey'respyingonusmoreandmore
toseeifwe'replottingtogetridofthem.Ithinkmostofuswouldliketogetridofthem,butonlyafewnutsthinkit'spossibleorcanbeachievedby
dynamite,butthegovernmentthinkswe'reallpotentialbombers.Theyknowwehatethem.Theyknowmostofusdon'tevenbothervoting,forinstance.
Theyjustdon'tknowwhenourpassivedisgustmightturnintoviolentrevolution.That'snottotallyirrationalwedon'tknowhowmanyTimothy
McVeighsthereareamongus.
Q.Whatabouttheideaofpeopleneedingsomekindofconspiracytojustifytheirday-to-daymisery?Thatsomethingislurkingouttherethat's
responsibleforalltheirpersonalpain?
Wilson:That'swhatIcallthe"blamegame."Whenyouhaveproblems,therearetwoapproaches.Oneistotrytosolvetheproblem.Theotheristo
findsomebodytoblameforitsoyoudon'thavetogotoallthetroubleofsolvingtheproblem.Andwithhumansbeinglargelyabunchoflazybums,the
secondsolutionismuchmorepopular.Don'ttrytofixtheproblem,findsomebodytoblameforit.Thatiswhytherearesomanytotallynuttyconspiracy
theoriesfloatingaround.
Q.Howmuchcredencedoyoulendtotheideathatgenuinealienscouldbeinvolvedinsomeoftheseconspiraciesinreal-world-terms?Doaliensexist
foryou,anddoyouthinktheyconspirewiththegovernment?
Wilson:Ithinktheliteralformofthatmodel,broughtforthbyBillCooperandWilliamMooreandothersofthatpersuasion,isawonderfulmetaphor,a
greatplotforascience-fictionstory.ButIcan'ttakeitliterally.Ijustcan'tbelieveinit.Thealiensinthesescenarioscomerightoutofbad1950s
science-fictionB-movies.I'dfinditeasiertobelieveinSnowWhiteandtheSevenDwarfsortheEasterBunny.
Ontheotherhand,theideathatthereareforceswedon'tunderstandinvolvedinsomeoftheshenanigansonthisplanetdoeshaveacertainplausibility
toit.Themoreyoulookintothesethings,themoreyoufeelthatthereisaplayerontheotherside.ToquoteThomasHenryHuxley,thegreatagnostic
aguywhowasanenemyofreligionallhislifeandyetinonepassageinoneofhisessays,hesayswe'relikepeopleplayingachessgame,where
thepiecesarethephenomenaoftheuniverse,therulesofthegamearethelawsofnaturewe'vediscoveredsofar,buttheplayerontheothersideis
stillinvisible.IclassifyUFOsandtheparanormalingeneralandForteanphenomenaasactsoftheplayerontheothersidethatwedon'tunderstand
yet.
Q.Whatisyourpersonalopinionofrecoveredmemorytherapyinthefieldofalienabduction?IsalienabductionanymorelikelytobetruethanSatanic
RitualAbuseorrecoveredmemoriesofincest?
Wilson:Idon'tseewhy.Iregardallhypnotically"recovered"memorieswithgreatsuspicion.You'dneedahellofalotofsupportingevidencebeforeI'd
takethemseriously.Underhypnosis,peoplewillsaywhateverthehypnotistwantsthemtosay.Especiallyifthehypnotisthypnotizesthemeveryweek
foralongperiodoftime.
Q.Sointhatregard,bookslikeWhitleyStrieber's"Communion"youdon'tlendawholelotofcredibilitytothen,right?
Wilson:Notliterally.Theremaybesomekindofphenomenonmaybesomethingasmaterialisticasfluctuationsintheearth'sgravitationaland
magneticfields,aswassuggestedbyPersinger,abehavioralscientistfromCanada,whosuggestedthatenergyfluctuationscausebrainwavechanges
whichcausehallucinatoryorpsychedelicstates.Maybethereissomethinglikethatgoingon.
Q.Likeapsychologicalphenomenonapartfromrealaliens?
Wilson:Yeah.I'minclinedtothinkthatalotofthepeoplearereportingaswellastheycanwhattheythinktheyexperience.ButIfinditveryhardto
takemostofthesethingsliterally.It'sliketakingMickeyandMinnieMouseliterallywhenyougotoDisneyland.Q.It'sbeenproposedbeforethat
theremaybesomekindofnewlydiscoveredpsychologicalorbraindisorderthatcausespeopletoseethesegraycreatureswithblackeyesandsoforth.
Isthatthekindoftheoryyou'dbemoreinclinedto
Wilson:Thatisalittlebittoopatforme.Ijustthinkthatthereareareaswithinthebrainoutofwhichvisionscomeandtheycomeindifferentfamilies.
Andbesidesthelittlegraybuggers,thereisthebeautifulwomeninblue,whoappearstoCatholicchildrenastheVirginMary.Itshowsupinalotof
Protestant,atheist,BhuddistandotherUFOvisionsasthe"womanfromVenus"orfromsomedistantstar.Sheisthe"GreatMother"oftheancients.
AlotofthesevisionaryexperiencescontainJungianarchetypes.
Q.Sotheythereforerecurinallkindsofpeople?
Wilson:Andallkindsofcultures.
Q.HaveyouheardanyinterestingconspiracytheoriesaboutthedeathsofLindaMcCartneyorFrankSinatra?

Wilson:Notyet.ThelastinterestingsetofconspiracytheorieswaswhenPrincessDidied.IheardoneaboutSonnyBono.Thereisaclaimthatthe
loggingcompaniesallgotlettersrightaftertheKennedykidgotkilledbyatree,too.Allthebigloggingcompaniesgotletterssaying"We'regoingto
killonecelebrityamonthuntilyoustoplogging."Anditwassigned,"TheTrees."(laughs)
Q.That'sthekindofhumorousthingyoutendtonotealotinyourownwork.Wilson:Well,ifIwasatree,I'dfeelthatway.
Q.Unfairlyvictimized?
Wilson:Yes.
Q.YousayattheendofthebookthatyouwishalltheconspiraciesyouhadwrittenaboutwereaseasytodismissastheZionistOccupiedGovernment
conspiracy.Whatconspiraciesdoyouhaveahardtimedismissing?Whatarethetoptwoorthreethatseempossibletoyou?
Wilson:TheMulti-ConspiracyModel,whichIheardfromTimothyLearyandlaterfromtheDistrictAttorneyof,Ithink,SantaBarbara.Thistheory
holdsthatanytown,onceitgetsbeyondbeingaone-horsetownoutoftheWesternsanytownthathasabankandagroceryandalotofrealestate
andalotofpeople,evenbeforeitbecomesabigcitytherearealwaysaminimumof24gangsfightingoverwho'sgoingtodominatethetownandown
mostoftherealestateandmakemostoftheprofits.Sothey'reallconspiringagainstoneanother.
Whenyougetuptothesizeofawholestate,thereare24biggerconspiracies,or30maybe.Whenyougetuptothenations,thereareGodknowshow
manyofthem.They'reallconspiringandthey'reallwillingtobreakthelawwheneverit'sintheirinterest.They'reallverydeceptive.
RobertoCalvi,whowasoneofthebankersinoneofthebiggestconspiracies,theP2conspiracyinItaly,oftensaid,"ReadTheGodfather.'Thatshows
youhowtheworldreallyworks."Inotherwords,allpowergroupsactfundamentallyliketheMafia.AndtheMafiaisnotamonolithicconspiracy.Itisa
conspiracyorsecretsocietythathangstogetherpartofthetimeandmakeswaronitselfpartofthetime.
Q.Soyou'retalkingthenaboutamultipleconspiracythat'smostlydirectedatmakingmoney?
Wilson:Exactly.IthinkthattherearemultipleconspiraciesandoccasionallyfiveorsixofthemwilljointogethertomakeaMega-Conspiracyfora
givenperiodoftimetoaccomplishagivenresult.ButIdon'tseeanyevidencethatthey'veallworkedtogethersincethedawnoftimetothepresent.
Mostlythey'vebeenfightingwithoneanother.
Q.WhatabouttheIlluminatistuff?
Wilson:Well,therearemany,manyversionsoftheIlluminatitheory.Butthepredominateoneisthattheywerefree-thinkers,atheists,libertarians,and
tryingtocreatethekindofgovernmentweoncehadundertheConstitutioninthiscountry.Ithinkthatkindofgovernmentisaboutthebestthehuman
racehascomeupwithsofar.WhateveriswrongwiththeConstitution,it'sbetterthanthesystemwehavenow.SoiftheIlluminatiexist,I'montheir
side.Icertainlydon'twanttogobacktotheCatholic/medievalworldortheIslamic/OrientaldespotismortheStoneAgeoranythinglikethat.
Q.Alongthosesamelines,whatdoyouthinkofNostradamusortheBookofRevelation?Areanyofthose"antichrist-centered"conspiraciesrealitybasedtoyou?Wilson:I'velivedthroughseveral"ends-of-the-world,"particularlytheones"predictedbyNostradamus."However,sinceyoucanget
anymeaningyouwantoutofNostradamus,Idon'tthinkyoushouldevensay"predictedbyNostradamus."Iwouldsay"predictedbypeoplewho
thoughttheycouldinterpretNostradamus."IrememberoneabouttenyearsagowhenIwaslivinginLosAngelesallSouthernCaliforniawas
supposedtofalloffintothePacificandwewereallsupposedtogetkilled.And"TheSantaMonicaOutlook,"aneveningnewspaper,hadagreat
headlinethatnight:"IfYou'reReadingThis,NostradamusWasWrongAgain."
Well,Idon'tknowhowwrongNostradamusis,butthepeoplewhointerprethimareusuallywrong.Maybewejusthaven'tlearnedtointerprethimyet.
I'minclinedtothinkhispoemsdon'tmakeanysenseatall.They'relikeLewisCarroll,exercisesinpleasantnonsense."Hethoughthesawa
rattlesnakewhoquestionedhiminGreek.Helookedagainandsawitwasthemiddleofnextweek."I'msureyoucouldfindsomepolitical
interpretationofthatifyoutriedhardenough.
Q.SoRevelationyougroupprettymuchthesame,right?It'samatterofhowit'sinterpreted?
Wilson:Itsoundstomeliketheauthoratesomebadmushrooms.
Q.Okay.IconsiderthatanadequateresponseIguess.Doyoufeelthere'sanythingnewtosayaboutHeaven'sGate?
Wilson:Idoworkshopsonthis,andin"EverythingIsUnderControl,"Icondenseditallintoabouttwopages.TimothyLearyandIworkedoutatheory
ofhowbrainwashingoperates.
Q.Irememberreadingthat.Youcanconvincesomeoneofanythingifyoufeedthemregularly.
Wilson:Andholdthemprisonerandkeepbreakingdowntheiregoandmocktheirpreviousbeliefsystem.Next,rewardthemastheoldmechanicalego
disappearsandanewmechanicalegobeginstoappear.Thentheystartusingthejargonofthegroupandthenbegintobelieveit.TheiroldBelief
System(B.S.)willvanishandyourB.S.willtakeitsplace.
Q.Howaboutthemovie"WagtheDog"?Didyouseethatmovie?
Wilson:ThatistheoneabouttheGulfWar?Ihaven'tseenityet,butoddlyenoughIreadthenovelitisbasedon,"AmericanHero,"whichisreviewed
inmybook.Ithoughtitwasveryplausible.Ithoughtitmademoresensethanthewardid.
Q.DoyouthinkHollywoodandWashingtonareconspiringeitherfororagainsteachother?Onethingtheyalwayssayabout"WagtheDog"isthat
thereissynchronicitybetweenthemovieandtherealeventshappeninginClinton'ssituationatthetime.Wilson:ButClintondidn'tgotowarwithIraq
though.
Q.Iknow,buttherewasstillthesexualscandalovertones.Infact,theyounggirlthatthePresidentisaccusedofmolestinginthemoviewearsablue
beretidenticaltotheoneMonicaLewenksiworeinthosephotographswherethePresidentleansforwardandembracesher.

Wilson:(laughs)Well,I'lltellyou,themovieseemstobeacombinationofwhathappenedinthenovel,inwhichGeorgeBushstartedawartogooseup
hispopularitywithoutanysexualscandalstomotivatehim,andthesexualscandalsoftheClintonadministration,whichcameafterthebookwaswritten.
Soitisanotherexampleoftheastonishingwayinwhichwriters,usingtheirimagination,takesomethingthathappenedalreadyandembroideronitand
describesomethingthatisgoingtohappenlateralso.Writersoftenwriteaboutthingstheydon'tknowandonlylatertheyfindouttheyweredoingthat.
WhenIfirstwrotethatBeethovenwasamemberoftheIlluminati,thatwasajoke.ThenIreadabiographyofBeethoventhatmadeitseemextremely
likely.
Q.Butwhenyouhavecaseslikethatofsynchronicitybetweenanoveloramovieandrealevents,isthatsomethingtheycaninanywaydoconsciously
ordeliberately?
Wilson:No,you'vejustgotto,asWilliamFaulknersaid,"trustthedemon."Thatmeanstrustwhateveritisthatdrivesyoutocreatefiction,towrite
creativelytrustitandseewhatcomesout.Itisalwaysastonishingwhenyoufindoutthatthedemonknowsmorethanyouknow.NormanMailercalls
itthe"navigatorintheunconscious."Youdon'thavetocallitademon.FaulknerjustlikedtobeGothic.
Q.Theytaughtusthesamethinginafictionclassatcollege.Thebeststuffjustkindofwellsupfromtheunconsciousofitsownwill.
Wilson:Thatisthemodernjargonforit.IactuallypreferFaulkner'spoeticlanguage,becausethewritingprocessdoeshaveaspookyside,which
psychologicalmodelsseemtoignore.Buteverybodyusesthemetaphorsthatworkforthem.
Q.ItissaidthatClinton'scurrentsexscandalsaretheresultofaright-wingconspiracyagainsthim.Doyouthinkthere\isanytruthtothatidea?
Wilson:Some.Butthereisalsothemediafrenzyforscandal.ThePresident'ssexlifeusedtobetaboo,butthetaboohasbrokendown.Likealltaboos,
assoonasitisbrokendown,yougetaperiodofkindofanarchisticchaoswheretherearenorulesatall.Eventuallyanewsetofruleswillhavetobe
established.Meanwhile,Iwouldn'trunforPresident.Iwouldn'trunfordogcatcher.Idon'twantanybodygoingovermylifethewaythelivesof
politiciansgetexaminedthesedays.
Q.MyreactionwasthatIcouldn'tbelievemyearshalfthetime.You'resittingtherewatchingtheeveningnewsandthey'retalkingaboutthe
President'ssemenstains.
Wilson:(laughs)Itislikehe'sasuspecton"NYPDBlue."EverybodyinWashingtonknewaboutKennedy'ssexualromps,buttheycouldn'tprintit.
Nowit'sopenseasononpoliticians.
Q.Well,isthereanythingelseyou'dliketoaddaboutthenewbook?ArethereanyquestionsIhaven'taskedorsomekindoffinalstatementyou'dlike
tomake?Wilson:Yeah.Iwouldsayhumanbeingsaregovernedbytheirbeliefsystems.Youachievefreedomwhenyoudetachfromyourbeliefsystems
andarewillingtochangethem.IabbreviatebeliefsystemsB.S.,asIdidabove.ItisanabbreviationIgotfromafriendofmine,DavidBrown.Andso
mytwomajorrulesare"Don'tbelievetotallyandcompletelyinanybody'sB.S."andespecially"Don'tbelievetotallyorcompletelyinyourownB.S."

VisitSeanCasteel's"UFOJournalist"websiteat:www.phantoms.com/seanc.htm

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RAWIllumination.net
AwindowintothewritingsofRobertAntonWilson

TUESDAY,DECEMBER21,2010

ILLUMINATUSONLINEDISCUSSIONGROUP

Allposts

RobertAntonWilson:TheLewisShiner
interview

ILLUMINATUSRESOURCES

Allpostingsonthissitetagged"Illuminatus!'
CriticTedGioiaonIlluminatus

[Editor'snote:IthinkIhavesomethingspecialhere.Thisisoneofthebest
interviewswithRobertAntonWilsonI'veeverread,andit'sonethathasn't
beenreprintedontheInternet,untilnow.

InterviewwithNeilRest(ontheChicago
backgroundofthework)
TropesofIlluminatus
DelleditorFredFeldman

ItwaspublishedinissueNo.5ofTrajectories.ThisisNOTthemagazineof
thesamenamethatRobertAntonWilsonpublished,butajournalpublished
inthe1980sinAustin,Texas.
"Infact,Ididn'tknowatthetimeRAWpublishedamagofthatname,and
believethatcuriosityonhispartisonereasonhegrantedtheinterview.We
determinedtheyweredifferentenoughinscopetonotworryaboutthename,
andinfact,mineactuallystartedpublicationfirst,"saysRichardShannon,
whopublishedtheTexasTrajectories.SusanSnellerwastheeditor.
"AsbestIremember(andRickprobablyhasabettermemorythanIdo),this
allstartedwithhim.HefoundoutBobwasgoingtobeintown,andheknew
thatIwasaHUGEfanoftheILLUMINATUS!trilogy.Sohesetupthe
interview,thethreeofusmetfordinner(IthinkRickpickedupthecheck),
andwehadataperecordergoingthewholetime.Rickevenhasacoupleof
photosoftheoccasion,"Shinersays.

DelleditorDavidHarris
EditorJimFrenkel:HowIhelpedsaveIlluminatus!
RAWonthe'Illuminatus!'saga
BogusMagus'Illuminatusstudiessite
RobertSheaIlluminatus!acceptancespeech
WikipediaIluminatusentry
IlluminatusWiki

How To Publish Your

Book
friesenpress.com/How-to-Publish

Get a Book Publishing Guide & Learn

How to Bring Your Book to Market.

"Itwaskindofaweirdinterview.Atthetime,IfeltlikeBobwasnotreally
listeningtome,kindoftalkingovermeanddeliveringsomewhatprefab
responses.YetwhenIlistenedbacktothetape,itwasareallygood
interview,andhesoundedverycompassionateandwise.."
TheinterviewisreprintedwithShinerandShannon'spermission.Infact,
whenIwrotetothem,ShannonmailedacopyofthezinefromTexasto
Shiner(nowaresidentoftheResearchTriangleareaofNorthCarolina
referencedinmyrecentreprintofArthurHlavaty'sarticle)andShinerkindly
scannedtheinterviewTWICE,oneasajpegsoIcouldseewhatitlooked
like,andonceastextsoIcouldreproduceit.

SANGHA

Antiwar.comOriginal
MilitarizingtheEbolaCrisis
2hoursago

QUANTUMTANTRA
NickEmitsAntimatter

Theinterviewisprettylong,soIampublishingithereintwoparts,andthen
willlinktoacopyofthefullinterviewunderFeatureArticlesandInterviews,
asI'vedonewithotherlongpieces.]

7hoursago

TheOzMix
ApocalypseAcrosstheItalianSky
7hoursago

ConductedbyLewisShiner,SusanSneller,andRickShannon

TheLibertarianAlliance
TheRushtoViolence

WemetRobertAntonWilsoninthelobbyoftheMarriott.ItwasApril28,
1988,andhewasinAustinforalectureandaworkshop.Hewasdressed
casually,hisrecedingwhitehaircombedstraightback,hisneatlytrimmed
beardslightlywornjustunderhislowerlip,wherehehabituallyrubsitwhile
talking.Hewasonlyalittlereserved,consideringhe'dcommittedhimselfto
aneveningwithtotalstrangers.Wehadarelaxedinterviewoverdinnerinthe
hotel.Hisanswerswereslowandwellconsidered,deliveredinasomewhat
gruffvoicethatstillhastheaccentofhisNewYorkupbringing.

8hoursago

Finnegans,Wake!
"SurfingFinnegansWake"withTerence
McKenna
10hoursago

ABuildingRoam
SomeThoughtsonMoby-Dick
10hoursago

ArthurD.Hlavaty
Afewsimplerules

Areyouinvolvedwithcomputers?

20hoursago

RelaxedFocus

IknowalotofpeopleinSiliconGulch.Iknowalotofthegossipandshoptalk,
butIdon'tdoanythingwithmycomputerexceptwrite.IknowI'vegotthis
enormousmachinetherethatwilldoamillionotherthings,butI'msobusy
writing,writing,writing.Overproductionistheonlywayforawriterofminority
appealtosurvive.

Training-"Whenyoutakeaccountabilityfor
yourlotinlifeyouhavethepowertochange
it."
22hoursago

OnlyMaybe
ComingSoon!
1dayago

I'malwaystryingnewthingstosupplementmyincome.Ididanewtypeof
seminarinBoulderafewweeksago,whichIco-createdwithafriendnamed
LizFreeman.Insteadofaregularseminaritwasagame.Everybodywho
cameinwehadabout40peoplewastakentoalittleroom,andtold
whotheywereplayingandwhattheirgoalwas,andnothingelse.Andthen
thepartybegan.Therewerefivelevelsofdeception,whichwethoughtwould
bealotoffun.Thepartyranfrom3intheafternoonto9atnight,andby9
mostpeoplehadonlygottothesecondlevel.Wehadmadeittoobloody
complicated.Nobodyfoundouthowcomplicateditwas.Itwasallbasedon
competingconspiracies.I'vebeenthinkingthatcouldbeadaptedfora
computergame,fornetworking.Ifpeoplehadenoughtimetheycouldget
backon,inaweek,youknow,afterthey'vethoughtitover,andfigureoutthe
deceptions.
DoyouknowaboutSteveJackson'sIlluminatigame?

HistoriaDiscordia
September2014ErisoftheMonth
2daysago

ComeHomeAmerica
CuttingDefense:AreWeSTUCK?
1weekago

NEWTRAJECTORIES
Photo
2weeksago

GroupnameforGrapejuice
HermeticAnarchismandOtheringtheOther1
2weeksago

OverweeningGeneralist
Swift/Marx/Wilson:Ironies,Paradoxes,and
SatiresMordant:SomeFaves
1monthago

EverybodyImeetthinksit'sbasedonmyIlluminatus!novelsandI'mgetting
royaltiesonit.Heclaimit'snotbasedonthenovels,soI'mnotgetting
royaltiesonit.Differentlawyersgivemedifferentopinions.Decidefor
yourself.

TSOGBLOGSPHERE
TheInternet'sOwnBoy
2monthsago

TheHamon'sPattern
QuoteduJour

Areyoumarried?

3monthsago

ThePerpetualThree-DotColumn

Very.We'regoingtobecelebratingour30thanniversarysoon.30years.
That'simpressive.

8monthsago

RAWilsonFans.com
RobertAntonWilson&OperationMindfuck
1yearago

Idon'tknowifit'swonderful,butit'ssureunusual.Especiallyinthecircleswe
travelin.TheaverageCaliforniamarriagelastsabout6months.

AskEric
"Listentothem,thechildrenofthenight."
1yearago

YougrewupinNewYork,thenmovedtoOhio.WhyOhio?

Drafts:
Anarchismand"Capitalist"Relations.

IwasofferedajobeditingamagazineforaplacecalledtheSchoolforLiving,
whichlatermovedtoMaryland.TheSchoolforLivinghadaveryinteresting
philosophy,whichwas"backtonature,liveontheland,eathealthfood"
andabitofanarchismandWilhelmReich.Iagreedwithabouthalfofthat
andthoughttheoverhalfwaskindofflakey,butitwasinteresting.Ithoughtit
wouldbeagreatideatoliveonafarmandseehowIdidatit.

1yearago

FEATUREARTICLESANDINTERVIEWS

GaryAcordinterview
BobbyCampbellinterview
MusicaltributestoRAW

Ienjoyedit.Weweretherefortwoyears.
Wereyouinfluencedbyyouryearsonthefarm?
Yeah,Ithinkso.Mychildrenwereveryyoungthen.Iguesstheoldestwas
abouteightwhenweleftOhio.Iusedtolookatthegrassandcropsand
treesandgoatsandcowsandatmychildrenandmywifeandmyselfand
thinkaboutevolutionallthesedifferenttypesofintelligence.Igot
fascinatedbytheintelligenceofinsects.Itturnedmeintoapantheist.No,
pantheistisnotcorrect.Thetechnicalwordispan-psych-ist.Ibecamemore
andmoreconvincedthateverythingwasintelligent.
RecentlyIreadaSufiphilosopherofthe14thcenturywhosaid,"Withinevery
atomareathousandrationalbeings."That'sjustwhatI'vesuspectedfor
years.

LondonForteansI--HiggsonRAW
LondonForteansII--DaisyErisCampbell
'AnarchismandCrime'byWilsonandShea
JesseWalkeronRAWandhisnewbook
NickMennutiontheNSAandRAW
RAWletterstoGreenEgg
RobertAntonWilsonin"Spin"magazine
RAWInterviewsBuckminsterFuller
RAWletterto'NoGovernor'
InterviewwithJMRHiggsonhisKLFbook
'TruthComesonSwiftWings'byRAW
sex1,sex2.........etc.,byRAW
ALetterinPlayboymagazine
InterviewwithStevePratt(FlyAgaric23)

HowdidyouencounterAleisterCrowley?

SkepticismandSolipsismbyRAW
TheCompleatSkepticbyRAW

IwashavinglunchwithAlanWattsin1969andItoldhimIwaswritinga
book.HeaskedmewhatitwasaboutsoItoldhimabitabouttheIlluminatus
trilogy,includingtheeyeinthepyramid,andhesaid,"Thatremindsmeofthe
mostwonderfulbookI'vereadallyear,calledtheEyeintheTriangle,byIsrael
Regardie."SoImadeanoteofthat.IwasworkingforPlayboyatthetimeI
wentbacktotheofficeafterlunchandItoldthePlayboylibrarytoorderthe
book.EditorshadthatprivilegeatPlayboyyoucouldorderanybookyou
wantedandthelibrarywouldgetitin.SoIreaditanditgotmefascinated,
andthat'showIgotinvolvedwithCrowley.

RAWdefendssatire
I,ROBOTbyRobertAntonWilson
AFewBluntStatementsAboutNeuro-Economics
byRAW(Page19,NoGovernor4)
Abortion&LogicbyRAW
TheWASPAsUbermenschbyRAW
AnarchismandMagickintheLightofInterstellar
NeurogeneticsbyRAW(inNoGovernor#2)
NoGovernor,Issues1-11

SoyoucameintoIlluminatusthroughtheconspiracyangleratherthanthe
occultangle.

InterviewwithJesseWalker

That'sright.Iwaseducatedtobelievethattherearenoconspiracies,orif
thereareweshouldn'ttalkaboutthem.Tothinkaboutconspiracieswas
somehowuncouthorlowerclassormightcauseyoutoturnintoaNaziin
yoursleeporsomething.Youshouldneverthinkaboutconspiraciesortalk
aboutthem.ButthenwiththeKennedyassassination...Ijustcouldn'tbelieve
theWarrenCommission.Istartedstudyingalotofthedifferentconspiracy
theoriesandthenIstartedrunningintothereallykookyones.BobSheaandI
usedtogooutfordrinkseveryFridayeveningafterworkandsolveallofthe
problemsoftheworldoverafewBloodyMarys.Weweretalkingaboutallof
thesekookyconspiracytheoriesandSheasaid,"Whydon'twewriteabook
aboutallthecraziestconspiracytheories."AndeventuallytheIlluminatus
trilogydevelopedoutofthat.

TheNobleEightfoldPathbyRAW

"TheScienceoftheImpossible"(fromOui)by
RAW
EightKindsofLibertariansbyRAW
RAWon"SerpentPower"
RAWonAleisterCrowley
RAWonJackParsons
StarseedRisesLikethePhoenixFromItsAshes
byRAW
Don'tBeAfraidofBlackMagickbyRAW
NewLibertarianNotesinterviewsRAW
RAWreviewsPound'sprose
Bibliographyfor'TheWidow'sSon'
InterviewwithKevinMacArdry

Whathaveyoubeenreadinglately?

AfewquestionsforDouglasRushkoff
RAWletterdiscussingorganizedreligion

Thebookthatimpressedmemost,recently,isThePsychobiologyof
Mind/BodyHealingbyEugeneLawrenceRossi.It'sabookaboutthe
neuropeptidesystem,andhowtheideasinthecortexaffectthe
hypothalamus,whichaffectstheneuropeptidesystem.Heexplainshow
peoplecandieofblackmagiccursesandhowtheycangetbetterifthey
havefaithinsomething,likeChristianScience,orVitaminClikeNorman
Cousins,whohadanallegedlyfataldisease.Cousinsjusttookmassive
dosesofVitaminCandlookedatcomediesontelevision,andcuredhimself.
I'veknownthesethingswerepossibleformanyyearsRossi'sbookgives
thebest,up-to-date,scientificexplanationofhowitworks,howthe
neuropeptidesystemcontrolstheimmunesystem,howtheimmunesystem
fightsoffdiseaseordoesn'tfightoffdisease.Forinstance,weallgetcancer
eventually,andmostofusfightitoff.Theimmunesystemisstrongenough
tofightitoff.It'swhentheimmunesystemfailsthatthediseasekillsyou.

LewisShinerinterviewsRobertAntonWilson
ARAWvisittotheResearchTriangle
TheDiagonalRelationshipLetters
LookingbackattheGoldenAPA
DavidHartwellInterview,Part2
DavidHartwellInterview,Part1
ArthurHlavatydiscussestheIlluminatiPapers
EditingTheWidow'sSon
EricWagnertalksabouthisbook
InterviewwithRAWexpertMichaelJohnson
InterviewwithMikeShea(RobertShea'sson)

ROBERTANTONWILSON

I'mamodelofgoodhealthconsideringallmyvices.TimLearysaidthat
recently,hesaid,"Bobiswalkingproofoftheneurosomaticcircuithehas
allthebadhabitstheywarnusagainstandhe'sstillhealthy."
You'veoftensaidthatwecan'ttrusthistorysohowdoyougoabout
gettingaccuratehistoricalresearch?
Idon'tknowhowaccuracyistobefoundinhistory,giventheamountof
prejudiceandcoverup.Idon'thaveanyfaithinmyhistoricalresearch.Iuse
whatseems....usable.I'mnotentirelyarbitraryIcantellthedifference
betweenarealwhackoandsomebodywho'sfairlyintelligentandrational.But
eventhepeoplewhoarefairlyintelligentandrationalhavetheirprejudices,so
Idon'ttrustthemcompletely.Sometimesthewhackosmaybewere
accurate.

Youfeelyou'vedevelopedanoseforpoliticalagendas?
RESOURCES

There'sacertainstylethatwarnsyou.There'saparanoidstyleofwriting.
Whenyouseethatyouknowyouhavetotakeeverythingveryskeptically.
ArethereanyplanstorestorethepagesDellorderedcutfromIlluminatus?
No,allthatgotlost.Dellhadthebookforfiveyearsbeforetheypublishedit.
Theykeptannouncingthey'dpublishitnextyear,andthentheeditorwould
getfired,orquittotakeabetterjob,andtheneweditorwouldn'tknow
anythingaboutit.Thethingdraggedonforfiveyears.Finallywegotadefinite

CosmicTriggerplay
RAWbioonWikipedia
RobertAntonWilsonattheInternetArchive
MaybeLogicAcademy
RAWFans
OfficialRAWsite
MaybeLogicSubreddit
BogusMagus'Illuminatus!Studiessite

announcementtheyweregoingtopublishit,buttheywantedustocut500
pages,andthey'dthendivideitupintothreevolumes,whichwe'dnever
intended.SheaandIweresoworndown,afterfiveyearsofstruggle,we
said,"Okay,we'llcut500pages."SoIsaidtoShea,"Let'scutitlikeGodard
cutBreathless,totallyatrandom.They'rebuyingitbythepound,theyhave
noconceptofliterarystructureoranythinglikethat,solet'sgivethema
literarystructurethat'stotallyoriginal,astochasticstructure."Sheaagreed
withme,sowejustmadeourcutsatrandom.Wedidn'tuseanyprincipleat
alltherearecutsinthemiddleofdialog,peopletalkingaboutonesubject
andsuddenlythey'retalkingaboutanother.It'sjustlikeGodarddiditwith
Breathless,eventenminuteshemadeacutofafewfeetoffilm.Itkeptthe
audienceoffbalance.ItseemedtoworkwithIlluminatus,too.
WhenweweredoingthecuttingIwasinMexicoandSheawasinChicago
andDellwasinNewYork,sointheprocessofthesepagesflowingbackand
forththroughthisloop,whatgotcutwaslostpermanently.Idecidedtoaccept
itintheZenwayasaluckyaccident.Itturnedouttobeanevenweirderbook
thanwehadplanned.AndthepeopleatDellweretotallyuninterestedin
literaryqualitiestheyjustthoughtithadenoughsexandviolencesoit
mightsucceed,andhadnoconceptofliteratureatall.Nobodycommented,
"Heyyouturnedyourbookintototalchaos."Theywereweighingitbythe
pound.Ifyou'vegotabignamelikeMicheneryoucangetafatbook
publishedbecauseeverythinghewritesisabestseller,butifyou'reunknown
theydivideitupintothreebooks,cutitdowntoasizetheycanaffordtolose
incaseitdoesn'tsucceed.

RAW360
DeoxyRAWpage
RAWfansonReddit
RobertAntonWilsonplaylistonYouTube
RobertAntonWilsoncommunityatGooglePlus
MoreFlyingLasagnaatGooglePlus
AndrewCrawshaw'sIlluminatusbibliography
RobertAntonWilsonFansonFacebook
RAWat417vibe.com
TubeGnosis
RAWWeekatBOINGBOING
DJFlyAgaric23'sRAWtracks
Dedroidify
DiscordianZen
alt.fan.rawilson
RobertSheasite
Agnosis
PeaceExchangeBulletin
ElectronicFrontierFoundation

COINCIDANCE:AHEADTESTONLINE
DISCUSSION

ReadingSchedule

EverychapterisbasedonaSephirothoftheKabbalisticTreeofLife.Youcan
stillfindthatinthereifyoulookhardenough.Itwasverycarefullyplanned
originally.Forinstance,SimonMoon'sfirstwordsinthebookare"Crown
Point,"whichturnsouttorefertothejailDillingerescapedfrom,butitalso
referstoKether,thetitleofthefirstchapter,andKethermeans"crown"in
Hebrewandissymbolizedbyapoint.Thatcabalisticsymbolismrunsall
throughthebook,everypagehasparallelswiththeTreeofLife.Therewere
22appendixes,whichwerethe22pathsontheTreeofLife,andthatgotcut
toeight.Ifinallyjustdecidedtoregarditasajoke.That'sthewayyouhaveto
regardcapitalismoryoueithergocrazyorbecomeasocialistandIdidn't
wanttodoeither.

WeekOne
WeekTwo
WeekThree
WeekFour
WeekFive
WeekSix
WeekSeven
WeekEight
WeekNine
WeekTen
WeekEleven

HereisPartTwo

WeekTwelve

PostedbyClevelandOkie(TomJackson)at1:23AM
+1 Recommend this on Google

Labels:LewisShiner,RickShannon,RobertAntonWilson

3comments:

MASKSONLINEDISCUSSION

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartOne
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartTwo
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartThree

michaelsaid...

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartFour

You'reright,Tom:thisisareallygoodone,sofar!Thanks!

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartFive

December21,2010at3:54PM

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartSix
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartSeven
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartEight

RoyalAcademyofReality1132said...

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartNine

Greatstuff.I'dneverheardthecomparisonbetweentheeditingof
Illuminatus!andtheeditingofBreathless.

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartTen

December21,2010at6:53PM

QUANTUMPSYCHOLOGYONLINESTUDYGROUP

CarolineContilloonQuantumPsychology
5alam83said...

Chapter1

itsbeutifulblogandbestarticles,thanksforshare

Chapter2

July6,2011at3:33AM

Chapter3
Chapter4

PostaComment

Chapter5
Chapter6
Chapter7

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RAWIllumination.net
AwindowintothewritingsofRobertAntonWilson

WEDNESDAY,DECEMBER22,2010

ILLUMINATUSONLINEDISCUSSIONGROUP

Allposts

LewisShinerinterviewsRobertAnton
Wilson,PartII

ILLUMINATUSRESOURCES

Allpostingsonthissitetagged"Illuminatus!'
CriticTedGioiaonIlluminatus

(ParttwoofLewisShiner'sinterviewwithRobertAntonWilson.Partoneran
yesterday.)

InterviewwithNeilRest(ontheChicago
backgroundofthework)
TropesofIlluminatus
DelleditorFredFeldman

Howaboutpolitics?

DelleditorDavidHarris
EditorJimFrenkel:HowIhelpedsaveIlluminatus!

I'vegottenincreasinglyagnosticandI'vegottenolder,andincreasinglywary
ofideologies,includingmyown.Soifyoutiedmetoaliedetector,withagun
tomyhead,Iwouldhavetosay,mostofthetime,I'msomewhereonthe
libertarian-anarchistcontinuum.ButIdistrustmyself.Idistrustbeingrigidified
andgettingdogmatic,soIkeepchallengingmyownassumptionsandlooking
atalternatives.KnowinghowdumbIam,Idon'twanttobecomeanother
dogmatist.IsawwhathappenedtoAynRandandsweetJesusforbidit
shouldhappentome.
NowmypoliticalactivityconsistsofmakingregularcontributionstoAmnesty
International,whichIregardasinsurance,notascharity.Amnestyhasavery
simplypolicy,namely,"Peopleshouldnotbelockedupfortheirideas."I'mall
forthat.Ifigureanybodyinjailforhisorherideasisdeprivingmybrainof
nourishment.Iftheycouldgetoutandpublishtheirideasitmightinspireme
itmightgivemenewideasitmightcausebraingrowth.Aslongasone
hereticislockedup,partofmybrainislockedupandI'mnotgettingthe
nourishmentIneed.Sothat'stheonethingIstillcontributetoregularly:
Amnesty.MywifecontributestotheAmericanFriendsServiceCommittee
Idon't,becauseshe'salreadydoingit.That'saboutit.I'mverycynicalabout
politics.Ihaveawan,nostalgichopethatJesseJacksonwillwin,just
becauseablackpresidentwouldrestoreabalance.Sowouldawoman
president,ofcourse.

RAWonthe'Illuminatus!'saga
BogusMagus'Illuminatusstudiessite
RobertSheaIlluminatus!acceptancespeech
WikipediaIluminatusentry
IlluminatusWiki

SANGHA

ArthurD.Hlavaty

LargepartsofTheEarthWillShakeareopenlydidactic
Idon'tmindbeingdidactic.It'sunfashionable,butmyfavoritewriterswereall
didacticDantewasdidactic,Shakespearewasdidactic,Chaucer,
JonathanSwift,EzraPound.

22minutesago

Antiwar.comOriginal
MilitarizingtheEbolaCrisis
3hoursago

QUANTUMTANTRA
NickEmitsAntimatter

Doyouseeabigdistinctionbetweenyourfictionandnon-fiction?
No,becauseIcan'ttellthedifferencemyself.Ithinkit'sentirelyarbitrary
whichbooksareputinfictionandwhichareputinnon-fiction.I'mabigfanof
CharlesFort,andoneofthethingshesaidthatIespeciallytreasureis,"I
franklyofferthisasfiction,inthesamesensethatGenesisandTheOriginof
SpeciesandEuclid'sGeometryarefiction."
Strieber'sCommunionisentertaining,whetheritwastrueornot.
It'saverycleverworkofart.Hecreatesmoreterrorinthat"factual"book
thanmost"fiction"writers.Heknowshowtobuildupthetensionandget
underyourskin.I'mprettyskepticalaboutabducteestories,buttherewasa
pointaboutthreequartersofthewaythroughthatbookwhereIfoundmyself
lookingaroundtheroomtoseewhatdamnedthingmighthavegotteninin

8hoursago

TheOzMix
ApocalypseAcrosstheItalianSky
8hoursago

TheLibertarianAlliance
TheRushtoViolence
10hoursago

Finnegans,Wake!
"SurfingFinnegansWake"withTerence
McKenna
11hoursago

ABuildingRoam
SomeThoughtsonMoby-Dick
11hoursago

RelaxedFocus

thelastfewminutes.
I'mnotconvincedCommunionisfiction.I'mnotconvincedit'snon-fiction.It's
inaquantum"maybe"stateasfarasI'mconcerned.
WereyouaLovecraftfanbeforeyougotintoIlluminatus?
IwasaLovecraftfansinceIwasabout12.IthinkitwaswhenIwas12I
heard"TheDunwichHorror"withRonaldColemanasthenarrator.It
impressedthehelloutofme.IstartedlookingforLovecraftandIcouldn'tfind
anyLovecraftbooks,butIfoundafewshortstoriesbyhiminanthologies.
ThenwhenIwas14IfoundawholebookofLovecraft,editedbyAugust
Derleth.SoLovecrafthasbeenapassionwithmemostofmylife.Ilikethe
wayheusestechniquesthatmakeyouthink,"Gee,maybethisisn'tfiction."
Thatfascinatesme,becausedoubtlastslongerthanfaithandprovokes
thoughtratherthandiscouragingit.

Training-"Whenyoutakeaccountabilityfor
yourlotinlifeyouhavethepowertochange
it."
1dayago

OnlyMaybe
ComingSoon!
1dayago

HistoriaDiscordia
September2014ErisoftheMonth
2daysago

ComeHomeAmerica
CuttingDefense:AreWeSTUCK?
1weekago

NEWTRAJECTORIES
Photo
2weeksago

GroupnameforGrapejuice
HermeticAnarchismandOtheringtheOther1

Surrealismfascinatesme,too.ThefirstSurrealistshow,peoplehadtocome
inthroughagardenwheretherewasataxicab,anditwasraininginsidethe
taxicabbutnotoutside.Whentheaudienceorvictimsgotpastthat,the
firstthingtheysawinthebuildingwasabigsignthatAndreBretonhadhung
upthatsaid,"Dadaisnotdead!Watchyourovercoat!"Atthatpointthe
distinctionbetweenartandlifehadbeencompletelyobliterated.Iaimforthat
inallmybooks.

2weeksago

OverweeningGeneralist
Swift/Marx/Wilson:Ironies,Paradoxes,and
SatiresMordant:SomeFaves
1monthago

TSOGBLOGSPHERE
TheInternet'sOwnBoy
2monthsago

Ilikehappenings,IlikethatgameIwastellingyouaboutearlier.Iliketoblur
thedistinctions,becausemostofwhatwethinkisperceptionisactually
projectionanyway.Iliketomakepeoplemoreawarethattheyarecreating
therealitytheyinhabit.Lovecrafttaughtmealotabouthowtodothat,ina
literaryway.
MyfavoriteofallmybooksisTheWidow'sSonbecauseIthinkIcreated
uncertaintybettertherethananywhereelse.Idon'tthinkthere'sanybodyin
theworldwhocantellhowmuchofthatbookisrealandhowmuchisfiction.
Includingme.Idon'tabsolutelyknowhowmuchtotrustmysources.

TheHamon'sPattern
QuoteduJour
3monthsago

ThePerpetualThree-DotColumn
8monthsago

RAWilsonFans.com
RobertAntonWilson&OperationMindfuck
1yearago

AskEric
"Listentothem,thechildrenofthenight."
1yearago

---andhowmuchyoumadeupmayhavebeentrue.

Drafts:
Anarchismand"Capitalist"Relations.

I'vehadthathappen,too.InIlluminatusImadeBeethovenamemberofthe
Illuminati.ThatwasaparodyoftheChristianCrusadeinOklahomathey
wereclaimingtheBeatleswereCommunistagents.Idecidedtoputitback
200yearsandmakeBeethovenanIlluminatiagent.And,myGod,thatwas
justajoke,butit'strue!BeethoveneitherbelongedtotheIlluminatiorwas
certainlyafellowtraveler.Hewasverycloselyassociatedwiththem.Ihadno
ideathatwastruewhenIwroteit.

1yearago

FEATUREARTICLESANDINTERVIEWS

GaryAcordinterview
BobbyCampbellinterview
MusicaltributestoRAW
LondonForteansI--HiggsonRAW

WhatotherSFwritershaveinfluencedyou?
RobertHeinlein.SomepeoplesayHeinlein'slaterstuffisn'tasgoodashis
earlierstuff.Thereareweaknessesinhislaterbooksbuttherearegood
thingsinhislaterbookstoo.InsomewaysIthinkhe'sgottenworse,andin
somewayshe'sgottenbetter.Buthisbooksareallinteresting.They're
certainlyprovocative.

LondonForteansII--DaisyErisCampbell
'AnarchismandCrime'byWilsonandShea
JesseWalkeronRAWandhisnewbook
NickMennutiontheNSAandRAW
RAWletterstoGreenEgg
RobertAntonWilsonin"Spin"magazine
RAWInterviewsBuckminsterFuller

Somepeopleregardbooksasanarcotic.Iregardbooksasastimulant.If
theydon'tstimulateme,tohellwiththem.Samethingwithmovies.Idon't
wantsoothing,sedativemovies.Iwantprovocative,challengingmovies.

RAWletterto'NoGovernor'

Thenextsciencefictionwriterwho'sbeenamajorinfluenceonmeisOlaf
Stapledon.Ithinkhe'sthegreatestsciencefictionwriterwhoeverlived,and
agreaterphilosopherthanBertrandRussellorSartre.

sex1,sex2.........etc.,byRAW

InterviewwithJMRHiggsonhisKLFbook
'TruthComesonSwiftWings'byRAW
ALetterinPlayboymagazine
InterviewwithStevePratt(FlyAgaric23)
SkepticismandSolipsismbyRAW

PhilDickisanotherofmyfavorites.Infactthere'salotofsynchronicities
betweenPhilandme.PhilandIhadalotofthesamesortofparanormal
experiencesataroundthesametime.PhilwasjustasagnosticaboutitasI
am.CosmicTriggerandVALISwerestatementsforthattime.I'mstillmulling
overalotofthosethings,andPhilwouldbemullingtoo,ifhewerehere.

TheCompleatSkepticbyRAW
RAWdefendssatire
I,ROBOTbyRobertAntonWilson
AFewBluntStatementsAboutNeuro-Economics
byRAW(Page19,NoGovernor4)

WhatkindofapersonisTimothyLeary?
That'sahardone.Timsaysthereare24TimothyLearys,andwhichone
youcontactisameasureofyourownintelligence.IguessI've
encounteredabout18ofthem.Hecontinuallyastoundsme.Ifindhim
admirable,attimes.He'scertainlybrilliant.He'sveryfunny.AttimesIfind
himannoying.Hecanbeverycoldandinhuman,andhecanbevery
warmandsympathetic.TherearesomanyfacetstoLearythatanything
yousayabouthimisuntrue.He'sjusttoocomplicatedforanybodyto
summarizehimbriefly.
VisitingTiminprisonwasareallymajorinfluenceonme.Seeinghowhe
kepthimselfhighandcheerfulunderthoseconditionsconvincedmeit
canbedone.
Haveyoudoneanyshortfiction?
Ihadafewshortstoriespublished,butIsortofstoppedwritingshort
fictionwhenIstartedgettingbookspublished.

Abortion&LogicbyRAW
TheWASPAsUbermenschbyRAW
AnarchismandMagickintheLightofInterstellar
NeurogeneticsbyRAW(inNoGovernor#2)
NoGovernor,Issues1-11
InterviewwithJesseWalker
"TheScienceoftheImpossible"(fromOui)by
RAW
TheNobleEightfoldPathbyRAW
EightKindsofLibertariansbyRAW
RAWon"SerpentPower"
RAWonAleisterCrowley
RAWonJackParsons
StarseedRisesLikethePhoenixFromItsAshes
byRAW
Don'tBeAfraidofBlackMagickbyRAW
NewLibertarianNotesinterviewsRAW
RAWreviewsPound'sprose
Bibliographyfor'TheWidow'sSon'
InterviewwithKevinMacArdry

Doyouhaveafavoriteofyourownworks?

AfewquestionsforDouglasRushkoff
RAWletterdiscussingorganizedreligion

Ilikeallmybooks.[Laughs.]Ifyoudon'tenjoyyourwork,youmightas
wellgiveup.FrankLloydWrightwasawitnessinacourttrialonce,and
hewasasked,"Whatisyourprofession?"andhesaid,"Architect."The
nextquestionwas,"Whatisyourstandinginyourfield?"andhesaid,"I
amtheworld'sgreatestarchitect."Hisfriendstoldhimlater,"Frank,you
carrythisarrogancetoofarsometimes."Hesaid,"WhatcouldIdo?I
wasunderoath."

LewisShinerinterviewsRobertAntonWilson

Youmustfeelyou'vehadsomekindofgrowth.

EditingTheWidow'sSon

ARAWvisittotheResearchTriangle
TheDiagonalRelationshipLetters
LookingbackattheGoldenAPA
DavidHartwellInterview,Part2
DavidHartwellInterview,Part1
ArthurHlavatydiscussestheIlluminatiPapers
EricWagnertalksabouthisbook

Idon'tthinkI'mmovingtowardsbecomingaPlatonicIdealWriter.Ithink
mystylehasimprovedovertheyears.IthinkI'mmoreversatilewith
certaintypesofdialog,stylesofdialogfordifferenttypesofcharacters.
Andtheconversationaltone--I'mgettingbetteratthat,withoutgetting
sloppy,orlosingsuchintelligenceasIpossess.Ithinkmystylehas
developed,andI'dliketogoondevelopingit.
IwanttowriteawholebookaboutJoycesomeday.Ihavealotofideas
forbooks.OneofthemisTheTruthAboutSex.Iprobablywillneverdo
thisonethat'swhyItalkaboutitsomuch.I'dlikesomebodytoripthe
ideaoff,soIdon'thavetodoit.Therewasabookthatwasabestseller,
tenor15yearsago,EverythingYouAlwaysWantedToKnowAbout
SexButYouWereAfraidToAskYourDoctor,anditwasinquestion
andanswerform.IthoughttheauthorwasoneofthestupidestpeopleI'd
everread.Idecidedtodothebookcorrectly.It'dbeinquestionand
answerform,butinsteadofoneanswertoeachquestiontherewouldbe
fourorfive,ormaybeevenadozen,allfromleadingauthorities,andall
contradictingoneanother.Theideaofthebookwastoshowthatthe
authoritiesdon'tknowwhatthehellthey'retalkingabout.It'sanareafull
ofprejudice.There'snorealscienceofsexologyyetit'sallvarious
peopleexpressingtheirpersonalprejudicesanddisguisingitas
psychologyorsociology.SoIthought,takeaquestionlike,"What
causeshomosexuality?"andgivetwelvedifferentanswersjusttoshow
howmuchthescientificcommunityreallyknowstheycan'tevenagree
aboutasimplethinglikethat."Whatcausesheterosexuality,"forthat
matter?"Whatisthedifferencebetweenvaginalandclitoralorgasm?"
I'dgetabout24differentopinionsonthat,intheliterature.

InterviewwithRAWexpertMichaelJohnson
InterviewwithMikeShea(RobertShea'sson)

ROBERTANTONWILSON

RESOURCES

CosmicTriggerplay
RAWbioonWikipedia
RobertAntonWilsonattheInternetArchive
MaybeLogicAcademy
RAWFans
OfficialRAWsite
MaybeLogicSubreddit

ThereasonI'llprobablyneverdothatbookisgettingthepermissions
fromalltheseauthorsisaHerculeantask,whichpublishersalways
dumponthewriter.Andoncetheyfoundoutwhattheyhadagreedto,the

BogusMagus'Illuminatus!Studiessite
RAW360
DeoxyRAWpage

expertswouldallbefuriousbecausethey'dalllooklikeidiots,because
they'realloverlydogmatic.They'dbeveryfuriousandgodknowswhat
they'ddoaboutit.SoIhopesomebodyelsedoesthatbookandIdon't
havetodoit.
I'dalsoliketowriteabookaboutPearlHarbor.Therevisionisthistorians
havebeenthoroughlyslanderedandaremostlyoutofprint.Iwouldn'tbe
addingmuchoriginalIthinkeverythingworthsayinghasbeensaidby
CharlesBeardandHarryElmerBarnesandJamesJ.Martinandafew
others.Buttheirbooksareoutofprintorhardtofind.Mybookwouldbe
justonemoreeffortagainstwhatBarnescalled"thehistoricalblackout."
Onemoreefforttoputthefactsonrecord.

RAWfansonReddit
RobertAntonWilsonplaylistonYouTube
RobertAntonWilsoncommunityatGooglePlus
MoreFlyingLasagnaatGooglePlus
AndrewCrawshaw'sIlluminatusbibliography
RobertAntonWilsonFansonFacebook
RAWat417vibe.com
TubeGnosis
RAWWeekatBOINGBOING
DJFlyAgaric23'sRAWtracks
Dedroidify
DiscordianZen

Or,I'dliketodoabookofeightessaysoneightthingsthateverybody
believesabouthistorythatcanbeclearlyproventobedubiousatbest
andprobablyuntrue.ThatthearrackonPearlHarborwasasurprise.Or
thecommonimageofChristopherColumbus.It'sprettywelldocumented
thathewasaJewishhomosexual,butthat'snotwhatwe'retaughtin
school.AndthegenocideoftheAmericanIndians.Americansall
assumegenocidewasinventedbyHitler.I'dliketodocumentthat.Hitler
wasjustcopyingtheexampleofthiscountry.

alt.fan.rawilson

I'dliketodoanessayonthecaseagainstEarlWarren.Iremember
gettingintoanargumentwithRalphGinsberg,andhesaid"Ibelievethe
WarrenReport,becauseIbelieveEarlWarrenwasagreatliberalandan
honestman."SoI'dliketodoawholereviewonWarren'srecord,
beginningwithputting'theJapaneseinconcentrationcampsduring
WorldWarII,andshowwhatagreatliberalWarrenreallywas.

ReadingSchedule

RobertSheasite
Agnosis
PeaceExchangeBulletin
ElectronicFrontierFoundation

COINCIDANCE:AHEADTESTONLINE
DISCUSSION

WeekOne
WeekTwo
WeekThree
WeekFour
WeekFive
WeekSix

AnotherbookthatIamdoing,asamatteroffact,whenIgetthetime--I've
alreadydiscusseditwithFalconpress--isNewAge,Sewage.Ijustdida
book,TheNewInquisition,whichwasontheCommitteeforScientific
InvestigationofClaimsoftheParanormal.Asusual,whenyoustart
writingapolemic,yougetcarriedawaybyyourownrhetoric.IfigureI
gavethemsuchadrubbingthatpeoplearegoingtothinkI'mentirelyon
theoppositeside--thisbeinganAristotelianculturewherepeoplethink
ineither/orterms.SoIfigureIoughttogivetheNewAgeadrubbingtoo,
toshowwhatmytruepositionis:agnostic,againstalldumbdogma.I
especiallywanttodoachapteronRamtha,demonstratingthatyoucan
bedead40,000yearsandstillbeabore.

WeekSeven
WeekEight
WeekNine
WeekTen
WeekEleven
WeekTwelve

MASKSONLINEDISCUSSION

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartOne
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartTwo
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartThree

HaveyoueverbeentemptedtopullanL.RonHubbard,andstartyour
ownreligion?
Oddlyenough,I'veneverbeenseriouslytempted,althoughIthinkIcould
getawaywithit.ItremindsmeofaconversationIhadwithoneofmy
daughtersrecently.Sheaskedifshecouldborrowsomemoneytopay
herautoinsurance,andIsaid,"Sure,"andIsentherthemoney.She
calledbackafewdayslatertosayshegotthemoneyandthankme,and
Isaid,"Wouldyouagreethereare20millioncarsinCalifornia,atleast?"
Andshesaid,"Oh,atleast20million."Isaid,"Thelowestinsuranceyou
cangetis$400."Shesaid,"Yeah."Sothat'seightbilliondollarsayear
theinsurancecompaniesaremaking,inonestate.Eightybillioninten
years.Sothatwasworthspendingatleasttenmilliononbribing
legislators--maybeahundredmillion--togetalawlikethatthrough.SoI
said,"Whydon'twestartourowninsurancecompany."Andshesaid,
"I'mafraidthatwouldbebadkarma."Andthat'swhyIhaven'tstartedmy
ownreligion.It'sbadkarmatoswindlepeople.

MasksoftheIlluminati,PartFour
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartFive
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartSix
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartSeven
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartEight
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartNine
MasksoftheIlluminati,PartTen

QUANTUMPSYCHOLOGYONLINESTUDYGROUP

CarolineContilloonQuantumPsychology
Chapter1
Chapter2
Chapter3
Chapter4
Chapter5
Chapter6

What'syouropiniononpornography?

Chapter7
Chapter8

IagreewithMagnusMagnusson.He'sthehostofanEnglishquizshow
calledMastermind,that'savery--notintellectual,buteruditequizshow.
Thecontestantsareallexpertsinsomerarefieldofknowledge,like
Germanhistoryfrom1872to1886,orIrishpoetryofthe7thand8th

Chapter9
Chapter10
Chapter11
Chapter12

centuries--thingslikethat.Thewinneristhepersonwhocananswerthe
mostquestionsinoneminute.
Anyway,MagnusMagnussonwasonanIrishtelevisionshowand
somehowthesubjectofpornographycameupandhesaid,"I'm
absolutelyagainstallcensorship."Andthehostsaid,"That'sontheusual
Libertariangrounds?"AndMagnussonsaid,"Ofcourse.ButIalsolike
pornography."AndIthought,mygod,that'sthefirsttimeIeverIheard
that.Everybodyelsewhodefendsit,theyargueontheseabstractthings,
theFirstAmendmentorwhatever--inEnglandtheyquoteJohnStewart
Mill.Magnussonwasthefirstpersonhonestenoughtosay,"Ilikeit,you
know."Ilikealotofit.I'mnotonlyagainstcensorship,butIfeelthedamn
peoplewhowanttobanitareinterferingwithmyrighttoenjoymyself.
Kiddiepornisadifferentissue--that'snothingtodowithcensorship,that
hastodowithabusingchildren.

Chapter13
Chapter14
Chapter15
Chapter16
Chapter17
Chapter18
Chapter19
Chapter20
Chapter21
Chapter22
Chapter23
KPvanderTempelonQuantumPsychology

SUBSCRIBETO

Posts

There'salotofbadpornographyaround,butthere'salotofbad
detectivestories,alotofbadsciencefiction.Oneofthethingsthat
fascinatesmeis,thebestpornographyI'veseenrecentlyisbywomen,
andit'sonthePlayboychannel.There'sacompanycalledFemme
Productions.Theymakeverygoodsoft-coreporn,veryartisticandvery
sensitive.
Theissuethatbothersme,wheremylibertarianismstartstobreakdown,
isnotpornography,buttheexploitationofviolenceinfilms.There's
growingclinicalevidencethatitdoestendtoproducemoreviolence,
andthatscaresthehelloutofme.It'scausedmealong,painful
reexaminationofmyprinciples,fromwhichIhavenotyetemergedI'm
stillworkingonit.
ItwasrightupinthecenterofmyattentioninthelastfewweeksinLA
becauseofthismovieColors,inwhichHopperusedtheactualjacketsof
actualLAgangs.Icanseewhyhedidit,artistically,itmakesthefilm
morevividandreal.Buttheupshotisalotofthecommunityisin
hystericsthatthiswillinspirethegangsandithasalready.There'sbeen
oneshooting,Theguywaswaitingonlinetoseethefilm.

Comments

ABOUT

AdailypostingfromTomJacksonaboutmy
favoritewriter,RobertAntonWilson.Ialsoseek
materialbyoraboutRobertShea,Mr.Wilson's
collaboratorinwriting"Illuminatus!"Ifyouhave
tips,youmaywritemeattom.jackson@gmail.com.
Pleaseput"RobertAntonWilson"inthesubject
line.
FollowmeonTwitter:jacksontom
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Therewasanerrorinthisgadget

BLOGARCHIVE

2014(272)
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Thatisahardone.Hopperisaseriousartist,there'snodoubtabout
that.Butthat'saveryhardoneandIdon'thavetheanswer.Idon'tbelieve
it'snecessarytohavetheanswerallthetime.It'sbettertothinkawhile.
Peopleneedtousetheircreativitytocomeupwithnonviolent
solutions.
Youknowwho'surgingthat?ColonelJimChannon.He'sretired,buthe's
stillaconsultantforthePentagon.Hekeepswritingproposalsfornonviolentsolutionstoproblems.HesuggestedweneedaclassofBuddhist
soldiers.He'sareallyfar-outguyandsofarhe'shadnomajorinfluence
onAmericanpolicy.

2011(364)
2010(206)
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RAW'swolfishpolicecaptainI'vebeen
readingThe...
MichaelJohnsononRAW'spoliticsMy
Tuesdayblog...
PinealGlandonrealitytunnelsPinealGland
isa...
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hasalo...
PrattonWikileaksStevenPrattweighsin
witha...

Hashepublished?

FYI:I'monTwitterForanyonewhomightbe
intere...

Hehas,andhe'sbeenwidelyinterviewed.Hisproposalsonhijackers
havebeenusedacoupleoftimes.Hisproposalistheyshouldbegiven
maximummediacoverageandallowedtotalktotelevisionasmuchas
theywant--hoursandhoursonendiftheywantto.Hesayswhat
motivatesterroristsistheirfeelingthatnobodyintheworldislistening.If
theyfeelthateverybodyislistening,thenit'seasiertonegotiatewith
them.Wherethathasbeentried,ithastendedtowork.He'sgotalotof
otherideas,abouttheArmygoingintothirdworldnationswherethere
areanti-Capitalistrevolutionsbrewingandinsteadoftryingtokillthe
anti-Capitalists,goinandbuilddamsandbringmoderntechnologyin,
andgivethepeopleabetterlife.

RAWonthepaganoriginsofSantaClaus
Viathee...
JurynullificationandRAWRobertAnton
Wilsonhas...
ThefakebookcitedinTheWidow'sSonI
havebeen...
LewisShinerinterviewsRobertAnton
Wilson,Part...
RobertAntonWilson:TheLewisShiner
interview[...
ThecoolnessthatisAustinAustin,Texas,
hasbee...

TheSandanistasoriginallywantedhelpfromtheUSandwewouldn't
giveit.
HoChiMinh'sconstitutionforNorthVietnam,began,"Weholdthese
truthstobeselfevident:thatallmen..."ItbeginsliketheDeclarationof
Independence.HewasveryinfluencedbyJefferson.Butthiscountry
supportedtheFrenchagainstthem,andwhentheFrenchcouldn'tfight
anymore,JFKsentAmericantroopsin,soHobecamemoreandmore
anti-American.
Whilewe'reonthissubject--Iwassayingsomefavorablethingsabout
Heinleinawhileago.ThethingthatirritatesmemostaboutHeinleinis
hisconstantpro-warpropaganda.WhatirritatesmeisnotonlythatI
disagreewithhim,butthatit'sinconsistentwithhisbasicposition.
Heinlein'sbasicpositionis"nevertrustthegovernment."They'reabunch
ofthieves,liars,andlooters,they'reouttorobusanddeceiveusandgull
usandabuseusallthetime,exceptwhentheysay,"Hey,wewantyouto
gokillabunchofpeopleonanothercontinent."Thenwemustbelieve
them,andwe'retraitorsifwehaveanydoubtswhatsoever.Thatissucha
thumping,enormouscontradiction.Howdothesecrooked,stupid
bureaucratssuddenlybecomehonestpeopleweshouldbelieveonce
theydeclarewar?
Theonlypeoplewhoarepro-warwhomakesensearethepeoplewho
believethegovernmentisdivineallthetime.Iwantedtogetthisinto
somesciencefictionmagazine--thankyouforgivingmetheopportunity.I
hopeHeinleinseesit.[InfactHeinleindiedbeforethisinterviewwas
transcribed.]Oh,well,ifafewpeoplewho'vebeeninfluencedbyHeinlein
noticethis,andnoticethatcontradictioninhisthinking,thenit'sworth
saying.
Anyfinalthoughts?
I'dliketoseepeoplegetalotsmarter,alotkinder,alotlessgullible,alot
moreskeptical,andalotlessparanoid,andalotmoreoptimistic.I'd
followLeary'sbasicrule:TFYQA.Thinkforyourself,questionauthority.
PostedbyClevelandOkie(TomJackson)at1:23AM
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Whoa!Thiswasprettydamnedfantastic!Thanksforthis,Jackson.
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ABOUTME

ClevelandOkie
(TomJackson)
Viewmycomplete
profile

AuthorRobertAntonWilsonSpeaksWithThe
TVITimes

ByArthurSimoni
May15,2001
Hehasbeencalledinhistimeasage,aprophet,apsychologist,aguru,afuturist,aguerilla
ontologist,anadeptandapostmodernisttonamemany.Onethingisforsure,heisafirstclass
writer.With32booksinprintinfiction,philosophy,andpsychology,hecouldneverbecalledaone
hitwonder.
ButRobertAntonWilsondoesntlikelabels.

Askhimandhewilltellyouwhatheprefers,Well,twobooksdescribedmeasapostmodernist.I
likedthatforawhile,Wilsonsaid.ButrecentlyIdecidedthatwasabitpretentious,sonowIm
justcallingmyselfadamnedoldcrank.Besides,whenyouremyageyouhavearighttoactlikea
damnedoldcrank.
BorninNewYork,WilsongrewupinaRomanCatholicenvironment.
ToquoteJamesJoyce,Ileftthechurchattheageof14detestingit,Wilsonsaid.Iwentthrough
aperiodofatheismuntilmylate20s.ThenIbecameanagnostic.
Wilsonsaidthattherearedifferentdefinitionsofagnosticism.
Tome,agnosticismmeansadmittingthatIdontknoweverything,Wilsonsaid,laughing.Imean,
howthehellcanIcomprehendtheuniversetocometoadefiniteconclusionaboutwhetherornotit
wascreatedorjusthappened.Iminclinedtothinksomesortofcreativeintelligence,butIdont
liketotalkaboutbecauseIdontknowanythingaboutit.IavoidthewordGodscrupulously,asdid
GeorgeWashington.
WhichbringstheconversationtowhatWilsonisbestknownfor,hisbooksaboutvarious
conspiracies.
WashingtonwasaFreemason,Wilsonsaid.YouknowbackinthosedaysFreemasonrywas
verycloselyassociatedwithrationalismandfreethought.Itwasasecretsocietyforthebourgeoisie.
Nowthebourgeoisiearerunningthecountry.
Thebigmasonsofthe18thcenturywerepeoplelikeWashington,maybeJefferson,Franklin,
Voltaire,BeethovenandMozart.Whocanyouthinkofrecently?J.EdgarHoover,RonaldReagan,
canyouseethechange?Wilsonsaid,laughingagain.
Becauseofhismanybooksonconspiraciesingeneralandtheticular,thequestionisalwaysthere,is
hehimselfaFreemason?
No.Maybe.Well,Iamaninitiateofanorderthatconsidersitselffreemasonic,isallhewillsayon
thisday.
IvewrittenbooksonacoupleofdozensubjectsandeverytimeIgetinterviewedIgetmost
questionsaboutthat,Wilsonsaid.Icantseemtogetawayfromit.
YouknowsometimesIthinktheyareallanelaboratejoke,Wilsonsaidreferringtomanyofthe
conspiracytheorieshewritesabout.YouknowJohnCocteauwasthetwenty-thirdGrandMaster
ofthePrioryofSionandhewasalsooneofthefoundersofthesurrealistmovement.Ithinkaround
1932,theyweresittingaround,smokingopiumandCocteausaidtoDaliandPicassoSurrealismis
runningoutofgas,wegottadosomethingbigger.SotheyalltookanothertokeofopiumandDali
saidIknow,letsstartaconspiracy.
ButWilsonwouldmuchrathertalkonothersubjects.HewillbeinAlbuquerqueonNovember2-7
fortheInternationalConferenceonAlteredStatesofConsciousnessthatwillbringtogetherover
fiftyofthetopauthorsonthesubjectforlecturesandworkshops.Wilsonsaiditwasimportantto
findwaystoalteryourconsciousness.
Fromthetimeweareborneverytribe,cultureorsocietytriestoimprintorconditionustosee,
feel,smelljustliketherestofthetribe.Ithinkitisveryimportanttojar,shockorotherwise

discombobulateyourbrainsoyourtribedoesntrecognizeyou,Wilsonsaid.
Healsothinksthatyoushouldquestioneverything.
Themorethingsyoutotallybelievein,thelessthinkingyoureinclinedtodo,Wilsonsaid.The
lessthinkingyoudo,thestupideryouget.Besides,therearenogroundsforbelievinginanything
absolutely.Allyoureallyhavearehighprobabilities.
Asfarasbeingawriter,Wilsonsaidthatitwasalwayswhathewantedtodo.
IdontknowwhyIwrite.MaybeifIhadbetterartsupplieswhenIwasachildIwouldhavebeen
apainter,Wilsonsaid.
Beforebecomingafreelancewriter,WilsonworkedasaneditorforPlayboyMagazineinthe
1960s,answeringlettersforthePlayboyForum,whichhedescribedasaplatformforthe
libertarianviewpointsheandmanyofhiscontemporariesheldatthetime.
AndIgotpaidforit,Wilsonsaid.IdontseeanynecessityforthegovernmenttodecidewhatI
eat,drinkorsmoke.ItsnoneofthegovernmentsGoddamnedbusiness.
WorkingatPlayboywaswhereheconnectedwithRobertSheatoco-writehisbestsellingnovel
TheIlluminatusTrilogy.
Illuminatuswassodamnedexperimentalmostpeoplegaveupafterthefirsttenpages.Butwhat
thehell,mostpeoplegiveupafterthefirstpageofFinnegansWake,Wilsonsaid.
WilsonlistedhisinfluencesasEzraPound,JamesJoyce,WilliamS.Burroughs,R.Buckminster
Fuller,AleisterCrowley,OrsonWellesandTimothyLeary.
Leary,withwhomheco-wroteNeuropolitics,wasoneofhisclosestfriends.
Personally,Timcouldbeason-of-a-bitch,Wilsonsaid.Butninetypercentofthetimehewas
thefunniest,mostamiablehumanbeingIevermet.ThelasttimeIsawTim,IsaidTimothy,Ive
metBuckyFullerandIstillthinkyourethemostintelligentpersonIveevermet.IvemetGeorge
CarlinandIstillthinkyourthefunniestpersonIveevermet.AndTimsaidtome,Robert,youre
anexcellentjudgeofcharacter.Thosewerethelastwordsweeverexchanged.
Asforwhatinspireshim,Wilsonsaidheconsidershimselfluckytohavealotofyoungfriends.He
saidthatthereasonmostolderpeopledonthaveyoungerfriendsisthattheyaretooentrenchedin
theirbeliefsystems.
Idontbelieveanything,soIamalwayslearningsomethingnew,Wilsonsaid.Butdonttrustme.
DontbelieveanythingthatIsay.Idontknowthetruth,butIwilltellyouwhatIfeelandthink.
Forthoseofuswhohavereadsomeofhisbooks,wearedamngladhedidnthavebetterart
suppliesinhisyouth,orwemaynothavehadthepleasureofreadingwhathethinksandfeels.
searchthissite

GO

UtopiaUSAinterviewwithRobertAntonWilson
ByLanceBauscher
22Feb2001
Canyoutalkaboutthebookyourecurrentlyworkingon,TheTaleoftheTribe?
Well,itsaboutEzraPoundandJamesJoyce,whomIregardasthetwomajorinnovatorsof
twentiethcenturyliterature.AndoddlytheybothhadaverypowerfulinfluenceonMarshall
McLuhanwhohasinfluencedhowwethinkaboutallmedia,especiallyinternet,eventhough
internetdidntbegintodevelopuntilafterMcLuhanwasdead.
"Thetaleofthetribe"wasPoundsdefinitionofthetopicofTheCantos,hislongepicpoemthat
hespent50yearswriting.ItalsofitsFinnegansWakeverywell,andthebookdescribeshow
TheCantosandFinnegansWakeinfluencedMcLuhan'sideas,andhowinternethasbeen
shapednotonlybythedevelopmentoftechnologybutbytheideasMcLuhangotfromPound
andJoyce.Itgetsmorecomplicated,butthatsagoodenoughintroductiontoit.
Wheredoesyourfaithintheincrediblepromiseofinternetcomefrom?
SomecommentatoronMcLuhan,whosenameIcantremember,pointedoutthatevery
communicationsystembeforeinternethashadgatekeepers.Thatistosay,togetabook
publishedthroughoutmostofhistoryyounotonlyneededtogetapublisher,youhadtogetthe
governmentcensorstoapproveit.Thatisstilltrueinmostcountries.Thesamewithmovies,
television,etc.
Internetbelongstothepeoplethatuseit.Nobodyhasfoundaneffectivewayofpolicingit,and
theyneverwillasfarasIcansee.Anywayofcontrollinginternetwouldinvolvecreatinga
worldgovernmentandthepeoplewhomostwanttocensoropinionsarethemostopposedto
worldgovernment.Sotheycantdoitthatway.Iftheytrytodoitanyotherwaytheyllwreck
mostmajorcorporationsthatdependsomuchoninternettodobusiness.Soitcantbedone.
Internetisgoingtoremainfree,andIbelieve,IvebelievedsinceIwasinmyearlytwenties,
thateverythingthatacceleratestheflowofinformationandcommunicationbenefitsthehuman
race,andeverycommunicationjamdamagesus.Sointernetisthegreatesttool,ordevice,or
gimmick,orwhateveryouwanttocallit,foracceleratingtheflowofinformationbetween
peoples.Itis,Ithink,themostrevolutionaryforceinthehistoryofhumanitysincethe
inventionofthewheel--especiallywhenAsiaandAfricagetonlineinamajorway.ThatswhatI
reallylookforwardto.
Haveyouconsideredhowvirtualrealityisgoingtomergewithinternet?
Ihavehadafewexperienceswithvirtuallyreality,andasamatteroffactIwrotealittlething
waybackinthemid-80saboutvirtualsex.Icanseethatcomingeventually.Smithjustgotthis
newmachinedeliveredandhehasntgottenoutofhishouseintwoweeks.
AtmyageIammoreinterestedingettingvirtualrealityoutofEuclideanspaceandinto
Riemannianspace.MyfirstexperienceswithvirtualrealityIthought,"nowiftheycould
programitforRiemannianspaceyoudunderstandrelativityrightawayandyouwouldnthave
tostrugglewithallthemathematics.Anditcanbedone,youcanmakeavirtualrealityofany
sortthatyouwant.AlsoIdliketoexperienceLobachevskianspace.
RiemannianspaceisthegeometryEinsteinusedinthegeneraltheoryofrelativity.Itsbased
ontheconception,moreorless,ofasphericaltime-spacecontinuum.Lobachevskianspaceis
sortalikeasaddlethatgoesonforever,thereisapeakinthemiddlebutthenitshrinksto
nothing,butonlyataninfinitedistance.Veryinterestingtypeofspacebecausenobodyhas
everfoundanyuseforitasfarasIknow.Mathematicallyitsjustasvalidastheotherkindsof
space.Imean,mathematicallyitisself-consistent--thatsallyouneedinmathematics.And
somebodywillfindauseforitsomeday,butImramblingnow.
Whatdoyouseehappeningrightnowwiththeaccelerationoftechnologyandinformation?
Well,waybackin1933KorzybskiwroteScienceandSanity,abookwhichhashadaprofound

influenceonmywholelife,andhesaidtherewasanaccelerationfactorinknowledgeand
technology.Nowitsacceleratingfasterandfasterallthetime,andthroughoutmylifeIve
seenthathappeningmoreandmore.
WhenIwasachild,womenallovertheUnitedStateshadgoiter,whichwasadisease,a
swellingoftheneck,whichlookedasbadascancer.Althoughitwasntthatfatalitwasvery
destructivetotheirgoodlooks.GoiterdisappearedduringW.W.II,somebodyfoundthecurefor
it.Smallpoxdisappearedinthe1960s.Wegotspacesatellites.WegotthingsIdontlike,like
nuclearweapons,buttheaccelerationisgoingfasterallthetime.AndIquiteconfidently
expectthatthebreakthroughsinbiotechnology,orbiotechaseverybodyiscallingitthese
days,inthenexttwentyyears--everythingweconsiderhuman,normal,etc.isgoingtohaveto
beredefined.
Whatdoeschaoshavetodowithallthis?
Chaosturnsmeon.ChaosmathturnsmeonbecauseIhavebasicallyascientificorientationas
distinguishedfromareligiousorientation.TherearesomethingsinscienceIalwayshad
doubtsabout.IalwaysthoughttheuniversewasnotasorderlyasNewtonorEinsteinwould
haveusthink.Alongcomeschaosmathandexplainsthethingsthathavebotheredmeallthese
yearsthatdoesntquitefitintotheNewtonianorEinsteiniumparadigm.Sotheyconvincedme
sciencecandealwiththechaoticafterallandcanincludeevenmorethanIthoughtitcould.
Theotherthingaboutchaosisthattherearealotoflinesofthoughtinthebiologicaland
behavioralsciencesthatindicatethatchaosleadstocreativity.Thereisevenakindof
psychotherapycalled"chaostherapy,"whichisbasedongettingthepatientsodamned
confusedthattheycantholdontotheirdelusionsandneurosisanymoreandhavetostart
changing.SoIthinkchaosworksthesamewayonthesociallevel.
Chaosdoesnotnecessarilymeanriot,insurrection,explosionsandthingslikethat.Chaosjust
meanstotallyunpredictableatanacceleratingrate,whichiswhatshappeningallthetime.And
Ithinkthatisforcingrapidlearningonthepartofthosewhoarestillcapableoflearning.And
itsthosepeoplewhothefuturedependson.
Thosewhocantlearn,well,theylldieeventually.Meanwhile,theyjustserveasaroadblock,a
temporaryroadblock.Dyingdinosaurs.WegotoneofthemintheWhiteHouserightnow,and
heappointedawholebunchofotherdinosaurstohiscabinet.Butitdoesntbothermeasmuch
asitdoesmostofmyfriendsbecauseIthinkpoliticsisalwaysthelastplace,theverylast
place,whereimportantchangesregister.Theyregisterinscience,thenintechnology,thenin
economicsandinsocialaffairs.Andthenfinallythepoliticianshavetoadjusttothem.
Especiallyinthiscountrywherealmostallourpoliticiansarelawyers.
Lawyersaretrainedtofindprecedenceforanythingtheywanttodo.Inotherwords,ifyou
wanttodocloning,youhavetolookupalltheotherprecedencesthathavetodowith
"uncloning,"thethingthathappenedbeforecloning.Lawyerswhethertheyaregoodhearted
ornot,andtherearealotofliberalandlibertarianlawyersIadmire--Idontmeantoputdown
thewholeprofession--butthisthingaboutlookingforprecedence...thatmeansthepastis
governingthefuture,whichmeanswerestranglingthefuturetomakeitfitthepast.Scienceis
notbasedonprecedence.Scienceisbasedonexperienceandexperiment.Andsciencemoves
veryfast,whilethelawdragscenturiesandsometimesmillenniumsbehind.
Andthenwehavetheproblemofcorruptionandthelaw,too.IhavetoadmitIhavethe
reputationasacynic,butthelastelectionevenstartledme.Iwasntsurprisedthattheystole
anelection.Thathappensalot--notonlyintheUnitedStates--ithappensallover,electionsare
stolenregularly.ThiscaseitwentuptotheSupremeCourtanditturnedoutthat5outof9of
theSupremeCourtwereinonstealingtheelection.Theycollaboratedintheworsttheftofan
electioninAmericanpoliticalhistory,andthewholeworldwaswatchingandtheydidnteven
giveadamn.Theyjustwentaheadanddiditanywaybecausetheyhavethepowertodoit.And
IrealizedhownaveIwas.IvebeencynicalofCongressandtheexecutivebranchandallits
bureaucraticsubdivisionsforalonglongtime,butIalwaysthoughttheSupremeCourtisreally
guided,rightlyorwrongly,bywhattheyreallythinktheConstitutionsays.NowIrealizethey
areascrookedastheothertwobranchesinthegovernment.Thatwasashocktome.Evenat
myageIcanbeshocked.
Doyoufeelthereisanyneedforgovernment?
Thatsahardquestion,becauseatpresentImafraidthereprobablyistosomeexten.ButId
liketoseeitlimited.IdliketoseeitpushedbacktotheleveloftheConstitution,whatwe
usuallycallJeffersoniandemocracy.Ithinkitcanbereducedevenfurther.ButIcertainlydont

likethecontinuousgrowthofthegovernmentinterferingwitheverything.
Whatamazesmemostisthepisspolice.EvenKafkaandOrwell--whowrotethecraziest,most
faroutsatiresontotalitarianismthattheirwildsurrealistimaginationscouldimagine--theydid
notincludepisspolice.AndyetwegotthemandtheAmericanpublicjustgulliblyand
submissivelyacceptsit.
Whydotheyacceptit?
Well,becausetheyvebeenbeatendownsolongandtheyresopessimistic,andtheyareso
worriedabouthowtopaythemortgage.Thisistheonlycountryintheindustrialworldthat
doesnthavenationalhealthinsurance.Theyareworriedaboutpayingthedoctorbills,theyare
worriedaboutthemortgages,theyareworriedaboutcrimeandsomanyotherthings.Ithink
basicallythereisanattitudeofhopeless--IthinkThoreoucalledit"quietdesperation."
Andbesides,youstickyourneckoutandyougetyourselfintotrouble.Mostguyswithwives
andfamiliesandmostwomenwithhusbandsandfamiliesdontwanttosticktheirneckouttoo
far.
IrememberthefirsttimeIgotarrested,whichwasforananti-segregationdemonstrationata
barbershop.AllIcouldthinkofwas"thisisntveryfairtomykids.Iamtoodamnidealistic.
WhatifIamseparatedfrommykidsforfiveyearswhiletheyaresoyoung?"Iwasthinkingin
termsofprobablyafiveyearprisonterm.Ishouldntdothattomykids!Imustbeanutfor
doingthis!Meanwhile,Iamstilldoingit.SoIcanunderstandwhymostpeopledontwantto
sticktheirnecksout,especiallyiftheyhavechildren.
Thereisalittlebitmoretoitthanthat.ItwhatIcallthe"snafuprincipal."Communicationonly
occursbetweenequals--realcommunication,thatis--becausewhenyouaredealingwith
peopleaboveyouinahierarchy,youlearnnottotellthemanythingtheydontwanttohear.If
youtellthemanythingtheydontwanttohear,theresponseis,"OnemorewordBumsteadand
Illfireyou!"Orinthemilitary,"Onemorewordandyourecourt-martialed."Itsthroughout
thewholesystem.
Sothehigherupinthehierarchyyougo,themoreliesarebeingtoldtoflatterthoseabove
them.Sothoseatthetophavenoideawhatisgoingonatall.Thoseatthebottomhaveto
adjusttotherulesmadebythoseatthetopwhodontknowwhatsgoingon.Thoseatthetop
canwriterulesaboutthis,thatandtheother,whilethoseatthebottomhavegottoadjust
realitytofittherulesasmuchastheycan.
Ivebeenteachingthisforover30years,almost40years.MoreandmoreIhavebeenasking
atmyworkshops,cananybodyholduptheirhandandsaythattheyhavetoldthetruth,the
wholetruth,andnothingbutthetruthwhendealingwithsomebodyfromthegovernment.
Nobodyhaseverhelduptheirhand.Everybodylieswhentheyaredealingwiththe
government!Youneverknowwhattheyaregoingtocomedownonyoufor,soyoutellthem
whatyouthinktheywanttohear.
Ithinkthatistrueofalotofpublicopinionpollstoo.Peoplethinkthatmightbeafrontforthe
CIAorsomebody.Sothoseatthetopdonthaveanyideawhatsgoingon,whatthepeople
reallywantoranythinglikethat.
Meanwhile,sincenobodywantstofeellikeacowardandaliarallthetime,it'seasiertostop
noticinghowrealitydiffersfromwhatthoseatthetopsay,andtrytomakeyourselfbelieve
thatwhattheysaydoescorrespondtoreality.Evenifthatmeansbumpingyourkneesagainst
thingstheysayarentthereorfallingdownstairstheyclaimdontexistandsoon.
SoIcallthistheburdenofomniscience:thoseonthetoparesupposedtobedoingtheseeing,
hearing,smelling,tasting,andallthesensing,apprehendingandconceptualizingforthewhole
societyandthoseatthebottomhavetoadjusttowhatthoseatthetopthinkbasedonallthe
misinformationflowingupinahierarchywhereanyspeakingofthetruthcangetyoupunished.
Iseeanarchismasthetheoreticalidealtowhichweareallgraduallyevolvingtoapointwhere
everybodycantellthetruthtoeverybodyelseandnobodycangetpunishedforit.Thatcan
onlyhappenwithouthierarchyandwithoutpeoplehavingtheauthoritytopunishotherpeople.
Idontthinkwecaneverabolishhierarchyentirely,butwecanmakeittemporaryandrotating.
Likeasymphonyorchestraneedsaconductor,butthatdoesntmeanheisgoingtotakeover
thelivesofthemusicians,tellingthemwhattoeatandwhattosmokeandwhattodrinkandso
on--wheretheycantravelandwheretheycanttravel.Andabaseballteamprobablyneedsa
manager,andsoon.Thereareprobablylotsofplaceswhereweneedatemporaryhierarchy,

butitdoesnthavetocoverlifetimesorevenfouryears.Anditdoesnthavetocoverasmuch
asthehierarchieswevegotwithcurrentcorporations,bureaucracies,andgovernments.
YouknowIthinkIbeganrealizethedangerofhierarchyanddevelopedthesnafuprincipal
aboutcommunicationwhenIwasworkingforthesecondlargestengineeringfirmintheUnited
States.Ilistenedtotheengineersbitchingallthetimeabouthowthefinancialinterests
wouldntthemdoanyoftheworkthatseemedreallyimportantforthemtoimprovetheir
output.AndIwasreadingWilliamFaulkner'sGoDownMoses,whichisstilloneofmyfavorite
novels,andtherewasasentenceintherewhichwaslikeaminisatoriforme.Andthesentence
goes:"Tothesheriff,LucaswasjustanotherniggerandtheybothknewthattoLucasthe
sheriffwasanignorantredneckwithnocauseforprideinhisancestors,noranyhopeforitin
hisprosperity.Butonlyoneofthemnewthat."AndIsuddenlyrealized,yeah,everypower
situationmeansthepeopleontoparenotbeingtoldwhatthepeopleonthebottomarereally
noticing.ThenIcouldseehowthisappliedtothisengineeringfirm.Andthenhowitappliedto
corporationsingeneralandsoon.
Itendtoshyawayfromthewordanarchist,becausemostpeoplethinkitmeansbomb
throwing.Andalotofpeoplewhoconsiderthemselvesanarchistsseemtothinkthattoo.ButI
cantuselibertarian,becausethepeoplewhogottheirgriponthatwordareevenlessrational
bymystandards.Iguess"decentralist"isthewordIdhavetopickoutformyself.Decentralist
grassrootsJeffersoniansomethingorother.
Whatelseaboutthephilosophyandpracticeofanarchisminterestsyou?
IveryearlyinmylifedecidedIdidntbelieveinthecapitalistsystem.FredrickSaudi,the
physicist,said,"Economics?Itshouldbecalledbanditry."Imeanitsthescienceofrobbing
andlooting,organized.Andontheotherhand,Marxistsocialismisevenworse.Ofcoursethere
isdemocraticsocialism,suchasyoufindinnorthernEurope,andIfindalottoadmireinthat,a
greatdeal.
ButtherearealsootheralternativesandoneofthealternativesthatattractsmeisNative
Americananarchism,sometimescalledindividualistanarchism,ormutualistanarchism,which
isbasedontheideaofvoluntaryassociation,whichistheforerunneroftheaffinitygroupwe
hearsomuchaboutthesedays.Orthedropoutcommuneandsoon.
Thehappiestpeopleontheplanetseemtobethosewholiveintribalsocietieswitha
membershipofabout120.Idontthinkwearegoingtogobacktothetriballevel,butIthink
powerhastobedecentralizedtothepointwhereevery120peoplearemakingtheirown
decisions,abouttheirlocalaffairs.Forinternationalaffairs,wecouldhavesomekindofgiant
computerwherewecanallputinouropinions.
Idonttrustpoliticians.AsamatteroffactwhatIlikebestaboutHannibalLecteristhathes
foundapracticaluseforapoliticianwhichnobodyelsehasdonebefore.
Theideaofrepresentativegovernmentafterweoverthrewthemonarchywas:wellhave
representativeswhowillrepresentus.Inthefirstplace,theydontrepresentus!They
representthecorporationswhopaytheircampaignfinance.Andinthesecondplacewedont
needanybodytorepresentus.Nowthatwevegotinternetwecanrepresentourselves.SoI
thinkallthosepeopleshouldbethrownthehelloutofofficeandforcedtomakealivingas
honestmenandwomendo,ratherthanbylyingtothegullibleandsellingthemouttothe
corporations,andwecanrepresentourselvesthroughinternet.
Asamatteroffact,BuckminsterFuller--oneofthemostbrilliantpeopleofthetwentieth
century,oftencomparedtoLeonardodaVinciandBenjaminFranklinfortheextentofthefields
inwhichhewasanexpert,hewasanexpertinatleastadozenfields--oneofhislastbookshas
thattheme.Hecallsitdesovernization:gettingridofhumanrepresentativesandrepresenting
ourselvesthoughelectronicmedia.SoIamnotasoriginalasIsometimesthinkIam.
Whatdotribalsocietieshavethatwegenerallydont?
Therearedifferenttypesoftribes,Iwasgeneralizingtoomuch.Butlet'sjustsaycertain
tribes.Whattheydonthaveisthebureaucracy,thehierarchy,thecomplexities.Iftheresa
disagreementinthetribe,youknowwhoyourdisagreeingwith.Youknowwhototalktoabout
it.Ifyoucantgetsatisfactionoutofthepersonyouredisagreeingwith,yougototheirfamily.
IntheTrobrianislands,whenawomanwantsadivorce--thisisbeforetheChristian
missionariesgotin,whenMalinowskistudiedthem--whenawomanwantsadivorcesheputs
herhusbandsshoesoutsidethedoor.Thatmeanshesnotallowedin.Ifhewantsthemarriage
tocontinue,hisparentsgoandtalktoherparentsandtrytonegotiateasecondtrial.Now,if

youtrythatinCaliforniatoday,yougetlawyersinvolved,andjudgesandthewholegoddamn
governmentbureaucracy.Thingsaremuchmorecomplicatedjustbecauseofthesize,andthe
ainexorablegrowthofpowerwhereveritsallowedtogrow.
Alsotribalgroupstendtohavewhatanthropologistscallananimalisticview,whichisaview
thateverythingisalive.Nobodyhasthatviewinoursocietyexceptforpeoplewhohavedonea
lotofacid.
Doyouhavehopeforatechnologicalutopiawhereeveryonesbasicneedsaremet?
Yeah.IhaventbeenintotheinnardsoftheWorldGamecomputersinPhiladelphia,butBucky
Fullerclaimed,andLeonardGablewhorunstheWorldGameInstitutenowalsoclaims,thatwe
couldfeedthewholeplanet,rightnow,today,startingtoday,ifweusedourtechnologymost
intelligently.Inotherwords,allthepeoplestarvingonthisplanet,andIforgetthestatistic,
butitsprettydamnedhorrifying,allthepeoplestarvingonthisplanetisallunnecessary.It's
onlyheldtogether,toquoteBuckyagain,byfear,ignorance,greedandzoninglaws.

Imprettysurewecoulddoitnow,butasamatteroffact,peoplesaidthatevenbeforeFuller.
Anotherengineer,namedmajorCharlesDouglas,claimedasfarbackas1919thatifweused
ourtechnologyintelligentlyandchangedthepresentfinancialsystemsowedontpayusuryat
60%foreverynewchangeintechnology,wecouldhaveasocietybetterthananyutopiain
sciencefictioneverimagined.Thereisalotofsupportingdataforthat.Asamatteroffact,just
lookattheaconditionofpeopleonwelfareintheUnitedStatestoday.Itlooksprettyugly,but
justcomparethemtothepeoplewithoutwelfareinLondoninDickensnovels.Everybodyis
betteroffthantheywere100yearsago.Ifweonlyusedourscienceandtechnology
intelligentlyourwholeworldcouldbeimmeasurablyimproved.Butfirstwegottogetridofthe
fear,ignorance,greedandzoninglaws.
Isvirtualrealityonlyaccessibleviacomputers?
Thatsaninterestingquestion.Ithinkweliveinvirtualrealityanyway.Asamatteroffact,
evenwithouttalkingaboutLSDorothercontroversialsubjects,youcaneasilydemonstrateto
yourselfthateverybodycreatestheirownreality,simplybysittingdownwithfourfriends,
beingquietforsaytwominutes,andhaveeachonereportwhatsoundstheyheard.You'llfind
everybodyintheroomhearddifferentsounds.Youcanduplicatethiswithvisiontoo.Have
everybodydescribetheroomtheyjustcameoutof.Theyllalldescribeitdifferently.
Wealllivewhatethnologistscalladifferentumwelt.Everyanimalhasadifferentumwelt.The
humananimallikeotheranimalshasageneralizedhumanumwelt,thingsthehumanbrainand
nervoussystemcanrecognize,buteachindividualhastheirownindividualizedumwelt.A
painterdoesnotseethewoodsthewayapoetdoes,andneitherofthemseeitthewaya
loggerdoes.Thepainterseesthecolors,thepoetseessomethingelse,andtheloggerseesa
chancetocutdownthetreesandmakemoney.Weallseeeverythingdifferently.
IvegotdozensofdemonstrationsofthatwhichIuseinmyworkshops,andnobodyhasever
gottenupinanymyworkshopsandsaid,"thatsnottruewewereallseeingthesamething!"
No,everybodyseesthingsdifferently.Andhearsthingsdifferently.Andsmellsthings
differently.Andtastesthingsdifferently.Theclassicexampleisorderingapizzaforagroupof
five.Nobodywantsthesamethingsonthepizza.Youendupbuyingthreesmallpizzas.
Doyouthinkthattechnologicalvirtualrealitywillenablepeopletomoreeasilyordeeplyexperiencewhat
youvejustdescribed?
Yes.IhaveastrongfeelingthatsinceAmericansarentasparanoidaboutmachinesastheyare
aboutchemicals,virtualrealitywilldoforthemasseswhatLSDonlydidonlydidforthosewho
werebraveenough,intelligentenough,orjustplainkookyenoughtoexperimentinthatarea.I
keepgoingbacktothatdontI,Iwonderwhy.Honest,Ihaventdoneacidintwodays,andI
wanttotellyou,itsgreattobeclean!No,Ijustmadethatup.Itsajoke.
Onceyourealizethattheworldyouperceivecanchangedramatically,andnotonlywithdrugs
butwithyogaandwithvariousothertypesofexerciseslikehypno-tapes,audiotapes,
neurolinguisticprogramming--thereareallsortsofdevicesforchangingyouperceivedworld-oncepeoplerealizethat,theyllrealizeiftheyarelivinginasadanduglyworld,wellthats
becausetheygotasadanduglyprogramintheirbrain.Andiftheyrelivinginahappycheerful
worldthatsbecausetheyprogrammedtheirbrainproperly.
Youknowtheoldsloganthatgoesbacktothedawnageofcomputerswhendinosaursand
RichardNixonstillroamedtheearth,"GIGO:garbagein,garbageout."Wellifyourgetting
garbageoutthat'sbecausethesoftwareinyourbrainconsistsmostlyofgarbage.Youbetter

replaceitwithmoreup-to-datesoftware.
Doyouthinkthatthecurrentanti-corporateglobalizationmovementisaflashinthepan?Doyouseea
resemblancetothelaborunionmovementsof1930s?
Thatsinteresting.MywifeArlenusedtosaythatthegreatdaysoflabororganizingarenot
behindus,theyreaheadofus.Shemeantthethirdworld.Allthejobsthataredisappearing
herearegoingtothethirdworldatslave-levelwages.AfriendofminehasaparodyoftheNike
slogan,"Wemadeourmoneytheoldfashionedway:slavelaborintheorient."Well,thatsnot
goingtolastsolong,especiallywiththeinternetandcommunicationsadvancinggreatly.Those
peoplearegoingtogetorganizedandstartfightingfortheirrights.Meanwhilepeoplehere
losingtheirjobsallthetimearegettingmoreandmorepissedoff.
Idontthinkthisisaflashinthepan.Ithinkthepeoplewhorunthisplanethavedisgracefully
mismanagedit,asWilliamBurroughssaidonce.AndIthinktheyaregoingtohavetogiveitan
inchatatimeormaybetheyllcollapseallatonceinabigrushliketheSovietUniondid.I
alwaysthinkofthat--whenIfeelhopelessIthinkofhowthoroughlytheSovietUnionchanged
inacoupleofmonths.
AndthesamethinghappenedintheUnionofSouthAfrica.Irememberasthingskeptheating
upinSouthAfricathroughoutthe70'sand80s.Itwasobvious,theblackswerethemajority.
Thewhitesweretheminority--theyheldtheyresuperiorpositionsimplybecausetheyheld
mostoftheguns.Buttheblackswerelearningwheretobuyguns.Anditseemedtomethe
whitesweresogoddamnpigheadedtheywouldntgiveupuntilmostofthemwereshotdead.
Itwasgoingtobeabloodbath.AndIthoughtwhydontweeverlearnanythingfromhistory.
WellthewhiteSouthAfricansshowedmethatwecanlearnsomethingfromhistory:they
allowedpowersharingbeforetheyallgotkilled,whichisastrikingsignofintelligencefroma
rulingelite.Mostrulingelitesdontfindoutuntiltheirheadsgetchoppedoff.LiketheFrench
royalfamilyin1789.
SoIthinkthereisachancethatthepowerelitetodaymightlearnbeforeitslate.Theycant
haveameetinganywherewithoutprotestersshowingup.Nowtheyrehavingmeetings
practicallyondesertislands.
Iminfavorofglobalization.Thethingiswhereisitcomingfrom?Thegrounduporthetop
down.Ifit'scomingfromthetopdownIamasferventlyagainstitasanybodyinSeattleorany
oftheotherplacessincethen.ButIthinkglobalizationisinevitable,itjusthastobefromthe
grassroots.The92chemicalelementsarescatteredatrandomaroundthisplanet.Tomakethe
maximumuseofscienceandtechnologyweneedall92.Sowearegoingtohavetoaccomplish
thatbyonecountryconqueringthewholeworld,whichisthetraditionalway,orbyworkingout
asystemwhereeverybodygetsafairsharebynegotiation.Ithinkonecountryconqueringthe
whole,whichseemstobethepolicynowinforce,isnotonlydangerous,butitgetsmore
dangerouseverydayastheexplosivepowerincreases.Asmoreandmorepeopleprotest
againstit,Ithinkeventuallyweregoingtohavetonegotiateourwaytoafairdealfor
everybody.
ToquoteBuckyFulleronemoretime,inthelasthalfthe20thcentury,themajorityofthe
scientistsoftheUnitedStateshavebeenrecruitedto,directlyorindirectly,contributeto
deliveringmoreandmoreexplosivepower,overlongerandlongerdistances,inshorterand
shortertimes,tokillmoreandmorepeople.Andnowwe'respendingevenmoremoneyunder
Bush.Weregoingtoreachthepointwhereprettysoonwe'regoingtojustpressabuttonand
wecanreleasezero-energyanddestroythewholeuniversenotjustthisplanet.Thatisthe
mostpervertedformofhumanintelligenceimaginableandthatcantgoonforeverbecause
moreandmorepeoplearemoreandmoredissatisfiedwiththat.
WhatyougottadoistalktoacoupleofintelligentpeoplefromnorthernEurope.Theypay
highertaxesthanwedo,buttheyrarelycomplainbecausetheygetsomethingfortheirtaxes.
Theygetuniversalhealthcare,theygetmuchbetterunemploymentiftheyloosetheirjob.They
haveallsortsofsocialservicesthatwedonthave,whichisworthwhile.Buthere,everybodyis
pissedoffabouttheirtaxbills,whichiscomparativelylow,becausetheygetnothingforit!All
thathappenstothetaxmoneyisthatitgoestopaytheinterestonthenationaldebtandthen
tobuildbiggerbombs,togofaster,tokillmorepeople.
Whatmostexcitesyouabouttheapproachingfuture?
Whatmostexcitesmeissolvingthecommunicationjamonthisplanet:lettingeverybodytalk
honestlytoeverybodyelse.Ithinkofintelligenceintermsoffeedback.Feedbackusedtomean
thenoiseyougetwhentwoelectronicsystemsinteract.Butthenthemoregeneralizedmeaning

becamethatofinformationflowingbackandcorrectingitself,whichisduetoworkofClaude
ShannonandNormanWienerinthe1940s.Theysawinternetbeforeitexisted.Theyworked
out,fromthecomputerstheyalreadyhad,theyworkedoutthetrajectoriesofthewaywewere
headed.
Everyanimal,totheextentthatithasadequatefeedback,thatsthemeasureofitsintelligence.
Andsothat,togetbacktoanearliertheme,iswhyIlikeinternetandhatecensorship.Every
formofcensorshipiscuttingdownonthefeedbackwithinthesocialorganism,whichmeans
thesocialorganismismuchmorestupidthananyindividualinit.
Doyouconsideryourselfafuturist?
Ivebeencalledafuturistoftenenough.Imanon-fundamentalistfuturist.Idontthinkyou
canpredictthefutureveryaccurately,butyoucanconsiderapenumbraofscenarios.Whichis
something,curiouslyenough,anAfricanshamantoldWilliamSeabrookbackinthe30s:"the
futureisfanshaped."Thereisnotonefuture,therearemanyfutures.Idliketohelpsteerus
tothemostdesirablefuture.
Isthisperspectiveafoundationofyouroptimism?
Therearealotofreasonsformyoptimism.Oneis,aslongasthingsareunknownyoumightas
wellassumethebest,becauseifyouassumetheworstyourejustmakingyourselfmiserable
andruiningyourdigestion.Itcanevenleadtoulcers.Inextremecasesitevenleadstoheart
attacks.Ithinkpessimismisvery,verydangerous,onhealthgrounds.Theresactually
researchshowingthatoptimistsrecoverfromdiseasesmuchfasterthanpessimists.Soitsa
healthmeasure,Itrytopreservemyoptimismasawayofguardingmyhealth.
Thenagainbecausetheliteraryestablishment,especiallyinNewYork--thepeoplewhodefine
themselvesas"theintellectuals,"whothinkthereisnobodywithanybrainsanywhereinthe
country--theyreallsoresolutelypessimistic.Ifeelsomebodyhasgottoraiseadissenting
voice,justsotherewillbeadialogueatleast.SoItrytopresentacaseforoptimism.
Andthenagain,thecurrentworldofchaoslookslikethebeginningofachangetoahigherlevel
ofcoherence,andintelligence,andfeedbackthroughoutthewholeplanet.WaituntilAfricaand
Asiacomeonline.
BarbaraMarxHubbardrunsseminarsinwhichpeoplearedividedupintolike20groupsand
eachgroupsdealswithspecificproblemsofconcerntothatgroupinrelationtothecitywhere
theylive.Andafteracoupleofhourssomeofthewallscomedownandgroupscomparetheir
solutionsandseeifthesolutionthatissatisfactorytoonegrouparesatisfactorytoanother.
Andpeoplecomeoutofitabsolutelydelightedwiththepossibilitiesofwhatcommunicationcan
achieve,onceyoustarttalkingtootherpeople.
Anothergroundsformyoptimism,isthatpeoplealwaysdothemostintelligentthing,after
theyvehavetriedallthestupidalternativesandnoneofthemhaveworked.AndIthinkthat
thepresentsystemontheplanethasobviouslyshownthatitdoesntwork.Andtheonly
alternativeismorecommunication,andmorehonestyandmorefairdealing.Butitbeginswith
honestcommunication.Peoplesayingwhattheyreallythinkandfeel.
YouknowwhyHannibalLecterissocharminginspiteofhisbadhabits?Becausehethoroughly
enjoyslife.Mostpeopledont.Oncetheystartcommunicatingwithoneanothertheywillstart
toenjoylifealittlemore,becausetheyllfeellessaloneandlesshopeless.
Howistodayscounterculturedifferentfromthecountercultureofthelate60sandearly70s?
Itseemstomewevegotthesamespectrum.Wevegotsomebrightpeopleandwegota
bunchofidiots.Thesixtiescounterculture,whichisfashionabletoputdowncurrently,hadalot
ofverybrightpeoplewhohadalotofhighgoals,butithadalotofidiotsandsloganeers.We
hadJerryRubentellingkidstokilltheirparentstoshowtheirsolidaritywiththethirdworld.All
sortsofstupidityofthatsort.SowhenIlookaroundtodayandseestupidityinthecounter
culture,wellitsalwaysbeenthatway.
Asamatteroffact,BernardShawandhisintroductiontoAndroclesandtheLion,pointsout
thateveryrevolutionarymovementattractsthosewhoaretoogoodforthecurrentstateof
societyandthosewhoarentevengoodenoughtoadjusttothecurrentstateofsociety.Thats
thewayheportraystheearlyChristiansinthatplay.Hegotthatfromdealingwiththefeminist
andsocialistmovementsofhisownyouth.Yougetthebestandtheworstinthecounterculture
always.

YourwifeArlenusedtheterm"stoneagefeedback"todescribetheinfluenceofaboriginalcultureson18th
centurythinking.Couldyouelucidatethisforus?
Well,itwasinthe18thcenturythatmostofwhatwenowconsiderprogressiveideasfirst
begantodawnonvariousEuropeanandAmericanthinkers.Andmuchofthiscamefrom
studyingstoneagetribes.Rousseau'sideaofthenoblesavagewasbasedonreportsfrom
CaptainCooksvoyagesintheSouthPacific.EverybodyknewhowofwonderfultheTahitians
andtheHawaiianswere,buttheymostlyforgotaboutthetribeinNewGuineathatwasso
paranoidtheywouldntcommunicatewiththem.Everyattempttocommunicateledthemto
throwspearsatthemuntiltheygaveuptryingtocommunicatewiththem.SoRousseauforgot
aboutthemandassumedthatallsavageswerepeacefulandfriendly.Whichislargelytruebut
notentirely.
TheAmericanIndians,orwhatevertheyrecallednow--itusedtobeNative
Americans,Ithinknowweresupposedtosayindigenouspeoples.Ihavealotoffriendsinthat
groupandIneverknowwhattocallthem.Ijustcallthembytheirfirstname.Icantkeepup
withpoliticalcorrectness.TheIroquoisFederationhadasomeinfluenceontheU.S.
Constitution.Andalsofromstudyingvarioustribalorstoneagesocieties,socialismand
anarchismoccurredtovariouspeopledependingonwhichtribestheyhadheardthemost
about.
Haveyouparticipatedinmanysocialorpoliticalprotests?
Istilldobyemail.Isignallsortsofpetitionsandsendallsortsofletters.Backinthe60sIwas
onthestreets,Igottear-gassedquiteabit.IamproudtosayInevergotmaced.Inthosedays
Icouldstillrunfasterthantheaveragecop.
Wasthisactivityinthe60sexhilaratingforyou?
MymemoryofthesixtieswasmostlyIwasoverlyoptimistic.Imstillanoptimistonprincipal
forthereasonsIgave,butinthesixtiesIreallythoughtthemovementwasgettingbiggerand
biggerallthetime.Andeventhepeoplewhowerenotpartof"themovement"weremoving.
ThestatisticsontheoppositiontotheVietnamWarwererisingandrising--about67%shortly
beforethewarhadended.Ithinkitwentevenhigherthanthat.Irememberwhenithit67%,I
thought"mygod,wereallyaremakingchanges!"AndsegregationendedwhichIthought
meantracismwouldendwithit.Iwastoooptimisticaboutalotofthings.
Soitwasaveryexhilaratingtime.Ifeltsomethingverydramaticwaschanging.Changesfor
thebetterwereoccurring.IstillfeelImparticipatinginchangesforthebetter.AlthoughI
thinkthatthetacticshavechangedfromthestreetstotheinternettoagreatextent.
Oh,youknowthemaindifferencebetweenClintonandBushfromaninternetpointofview?
WhenIsentemailtoClinton,Iwouldgetathreeparagraphanswersayingnothing.WhenI
sendonetoBushIgetaonesentenceanswersayingnothing.Bushslettersays,"The
presidentwishestothankyouforyourviews."Clintonslettersaidthesamething,butinabout
100wordsinthreeparagraphs.Nocomment.AtleastBushhasalittlemorebrevitythan
Clinton.
WhenIwasresearchingformyhistoricalnovelsIhadaprettylowopinionofthepastin
generalandtheconditionofthepeopleinthepast.ButwhenIresearchedthemIfoundout
howtheFrenchwerelivingbeforetherevolution--youjustgottoreadEngles,TheConditionof
theWorkingClassinEngland,orreadthenovelsbyCharlesDickens.Ithinkbyinlargethe
advanceoftechnologyhasbeenanadvantagetomostpeopleontheplanet.
Ofcourse,thatdoesntmeanalltechnology.Icoinedtheword"sombunol"--somebutnotall-toavoidover-generalizing.Iuseitinwriting,butit'shardtoremembertouseitinspeech
becausemostpeopledontknowwhatImean,Ihavetostopandexplain.Youshouldnever
talkaboutallofanythingoutsideofmathematics.Inmathematicsyoucantalkaboutallcircles,
becausecirclesonlyexistinourimaginationinthehumanmindscape.Whenyoustarttalking
aboutallJewsyourelikelytogoascrazyasAdolphHitler.OryoustarttalkingaboutallTV
repairpeopleforthatmatter.Theyrenotallcrooks,justmostofthem.Soyoushouldneveruse
theword"all"outsideofmathematics.
Whatsyourmostseriousconcernaboutourplanet?
Thestupidityproblem.Ideallyweshouldhaveapillthatmakespeoplemorecreativeandmore
curious.Andtheonlywaytogetmostpeopletouseitisifitgivespeopleahedonicboomalong
withthat.Theproblemisthatifsuchapilldidexistthegovernmentwouldbanitrightaway.
Somepeoplethinkthatitdidexistinthe1960sandthatthegovernmentdidbanit,soIfeel

fairlysafeinmakingthatprediction.
Buttherearelotsofothertechniquesfromhypno-tapestobrainwavemachines,toyoga,to
neurolinguisticprogramming,andnewthingsthatarebeingdiscoveredallthetime.Thething
istheygottohaveahookonthemsopeoplewillwanttousethem.Whenthemajorityfindsan
intelligenceraisingdevicethattheyenjoyusingwellIthinktheyhavetosomeextentin
internet.Eventhepeoplewhospend18hoursadaywithnothingbutthepornsites,eventually
theygottaspendatonehourlookingattherestofit--soitwouldbroadentheirperspectives
considerably.
Canyouspeakalittlebitaboutpatternrecognition,perhapsinrelationtotheleftbrain/rightbrainmodels
ofthinking?
Well,wehavemorecellsinourbrainconnectedwithpatternrecognitionratherthanwith
logicalsequencing,whichIthinkisaveryimportantfacttoknow.IthinkthisexplainswhyI
findChinesecultureandChineseideogramsandpoetrysocongenial,becauseitalldealswith
patterns.Itdoesntdealwithlogicalstructures.Ithinklogicalstructuresgenerallyturnoutto
behighlyartificial.Theyhavetoomany"alls"inthemtobeginwith.Youcanthavealogical
structurewithoutan"all.""Allmenaremortal.Socratesisaman,thereforeSocratesisa
mortal."Wellwedontknowthatallmenaremortalanymorewiththebreakthroughswith
biotechnology.Theremaybepeoplealivetodaywhowillneverdie.
Sonowonderlogicplaysasmallpartwithmostpeopleslives.Mostofthebrainisinvolved
withpatternrecognitionwhichismuchmoreimportant--bothartisticallyandjustintermsof
survival.Ifyoureamonkeyrunningthroughthejungle,ifyoustoptothinkthingsoutlogically,
youllgeteatenbythefirstpredatortocomealong.Withpatternrecognitionyouknowwhich
animalsaresafetoapproachandwhichonesyoushouldrunawayfrom.
Weneedtostudypatternrecognitioninthehumanbrainmuchmorebecausethatsmostof
whatthebrainisconcernedwithandmostofwhatartisconcernedwith.Themissingpartof
mostscientificdescriptionsofhumanbeingsistheimportanceofpatternrecognition.
Theyusedtocallitrightbrainandleftbrain,butthentheyfoundthattheywerentsodivided.
Butthosearetwodefinitefunctions:thepatternrecognitionandthelinearlinking.Thepattern
recognitionismuchmoreimportantforsurvival.Wevebeentalkingsomuchaboutscience,but
Ibasicallyregardmyselfmoreasanartistratherthanascientist.Tome,likeIsaid,the
problemwithsciencewhenstudyinghumanbeingsisthattheydontstresspatternrecognition
enough.
Childrentaughtartatanearlyagetendtolivelongerandtheytendtounderstandscience
betterthanthosewhoaregiventhetraditionalformofeducationbasedonlinearthinking--the
Gutenburgfix,asMcLuhencalledit,ortheAristotelianmindsetasKorzybskicalledit.
Anyadvicetoyoungpeoplelookingtochangethings?
Yeah,dontfeelsuperiortothepeopleyouaretryingtochange.Thatstheworstpossible
stancetotake.Youllneverconvinceanybodyaslongasyoufeelsuperiortothem.Allyoulldo
isinsultthem.Ithinkthatwasthemajorerrorofthe60sandIblameitespeciallyonAbby
HoffmanandJerryRuben.Itwasthemajormistakeofthe60s--talkingfromapositionof
superioritywhenyoudidnthaveanyofthequalitiesthatpeoplelookedforinleaderslike.They
hadcharisma,butArlenusedtosay,theonlyplaceforcharismaisinshowbusiness.Onceit
getslooseinpoliticsorreligionallhellbreaksloose.
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