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14/09/2016

GE Gas Turbine IGV angle

GE Gas Turbine IGV angle


What is the logic? GTG is not operating in Temperature Control mode.
By BND on 28 June, 2014 - 4:31 am
Frame 6 Machine with Mark-V. IGV is operating at 57 DGA with TTXM=562 degree C. The IGV moves
to 62 DGA and is operating between 59-62DGA. What is the logic. GTG is not operating in Temperature
Control mode

By CSA
on 28 June, 2014 - 12:14 pm
3 out of 4 members thought this post was helpful...
BND,
There is 'exhaust temperature control' and there is 'exhaust temperature control.' Which exhaust
temperature control are you referring to?
Most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines have CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (this is what
defines Base Load--and is the maximum allowable exhaust temperature based on operating conditions
when the IGVs are at their maximum operating angle.
And, most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines also have IGV exhaust temperature control--which is the
method of maximizing exhaust temperature at part load (below Base Load) by keeping the IGVs closed
as long as possible which restricts the air flow through the machine and increases the exhaust
temperature.
When the unit is being loaded from synchronization and IGV exhaust temperature control is enabled
and active the IGVs will be held closed until TTXM (the average exhaust temperature) gets very close
to TTRX (the CPD-biased exhaust temperature control reference--again: the maximum allowable
exhaust temperature for the current operating condition). So, the IGVs will be held at 57 DGA until
TTXM gets very close to TTRX (sometimes, depending on the vintage of the control algorithm, it will
be when TTXM equals TTRX) as load is increased the exhaust temperature would tend to increase
above TTRX--and the IGVs are opened slightly to maintain the TTXM/TTRX relationship. This is IGV
exhaust temperature control.
This continues during loading until the IGVs are fully open, and when TTXM equals TTRX then the
unit is said to be operating on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control. Again, CPD-biased exhaust
temperature control only occurs when the IGVs are fully open--that's part of the definition of Base
Load: when the IGVs are fully open and fuel flow is such that TTXM equals TTRX.
Hope this helps!
Two last things. First, if the turbine you are working on has DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustors, IGV
exhaust temperature control is not operator-selectable; it's always on.
Second, when a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine without DLN combustors is operating with IGV
exhaust temperature control disabled and not active when the exhaust temperature hits 700 or 900 deg F
(sorry; I can't remember which temperature exactly) the IGVs will start opening to maintain that
temperature (either 700 or 900 deg F) as the unit is loaded until such time as the IGVs are fully open.
The operator interface display will show "EXHAUST TEMPERATURE CONTROL" during this
period. The purpose of this 'exhaust temperature control' is to limit combustor pressure pulsations
during loading (which occurs around 700 or 900 deg F--which I could remember which, but I can't;
sorry). So, really, there's 'exhaust temperature control' and there's 'exhaust temperature control' and
there's 'exhaust temperature control.' (Isn't this fun?)
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By Neo

on 29 June, 2014 - 8:24 pm

CSA
I posted it in wrong thread.
As both of IGVs and FSR (right?) have ability to regulate exhaust temperature,how to make sure
when the IGVs are not at maximum operating angle,the exhaust temperature is controlled by IGVs
exhaust temperature control not CPD-biased exhaust temperature control?
Best regards
Neo

By CSA
on 30 June, 2014 - 8:44 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo,
The IGV position reference, CSRGV, is the output of a MAX select block--just like FSR is the
output of a MAX select block.
The IGV temperature control reference is basically the same as the CPD-biased exhaust temperature
control reference. (Some older units had a 5-10 deg F offset, making the IGV exhaust temp control
reference slightly lower. Newer units don't have that offset.)
The reason that CPD-biased exhaust temperature control is used as the IGV exhaust temperature
control reference is that it makes life simpler: The CPD-biased exhaust temperature control
reference is being calculated all the time, and it does represent the maximum allowable exhaust
temperature control reference, so using it as the IGV exhaust temp control reference makes sense.
I don't have access to any Mark VI application code at the moment, but I think the IGV exhaust
temp control reference is called CSRGVX or something like that. When operating on IGV exhaust
temp control the IGVs are modulated (positioned) based on comparing the actual exhaust
temperature (TTXM) to the CPD-biased exhaust temp control reference (TTRX) and either opened
or closed to make TTXM equal to TTRX. A lot like how CPD-biased exhaust temperature control
positions the GCV--when the IGVs are full open. Again, that's how the Speedtronic knows when it's
supposed to be on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (Base Load)--when the IGVs are full
open (at their maximum operating angle).
Does this help? IGV exhaust temp control uses the CPD-biased exhaust temp control reference
(TTRX) as it's reference for positioning the IGVs when IGV exhaust temp control is active and
enabled.
Have a look at how CSRGV is determined, and you will find lots of new questions.

By Neo

on 3 July, 2014 - 4:08 am

CSA,
Thank you again for your comment, it helps a lot.
So when the unit is on Base Load, the exhaust temperature is controlled by CPD-biased exhaust
temperature? and when the unit is on Part Load,it is controlled by IGV exhaust control?

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I heard that when it is a Combined cycle, IGV exhaust control is meant to keep T4* at maximum
value, and if it is a simple cycle, the exhaust temperature is not controlled.
When closing the IGVs on Part load to keep to the T4* at maximum, how does the CPR change,
and CPR in turn will decide the maximum allowable exhaust temperature. That seems tricky.
I would like to refer to CSRGV when time is available.
Best regards
Neo

By CSA
on 3 July, 2014 - 8:13 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo,
What's this "T4*"?
We can talk about CSRGV; later. Once we finish with L4T! Which should be VERY interesting
for the unit at your site.
There's no trickery involved. At Part Load (less than Base Load) the IGVs can be used to
maximize exhaust temperature--and the maximum allowable exhaust temperature at ANY time is
always TTRX. So, the IGVs just remain at minimum operating angle until TTXM reaches
TTRX. As fuel increases and TTXM would tend to increase the IGVs open to keep TTXM equal
to TTRX.
Once the IGVs reach maximum operating angle and TTXM equals TTRX--well, that's the
definition of Base Load. It's very simple, and, again, no trickery involved.
Units without a heat recovery steam generator (an HRSG, or "boiler") on the gas turbine exhaust
(or units with a diverter in the exhaust, which can divert the exhaust directly to atmosphere
instead of to the HRSG) can operate without IGV exhaust temperature control (if they are nonDLN units). This is commonly called "simple cycle" (sometimes called "single cycle") and is
more efficient than operating with IGV exhaust temp control ON because the unit is exhausting
to atmosphere and there's no benefit in making exhaust temperature higher by restricting air flow
through the unit. (The benefit of maximizing exhaust temperature is for the overall combined
cycle--when steam is being produced with the gas turbine exhaust. It actually slightly reduces the
efficiency of the gas turbine (the simple cycle), but it increases the overall thermal efficiency of
the plant (the combined cycle)).

By Sameh

on 8 July, 2014 - 4:58 am

Neo,
sorry I have a question may be related to this discussion. GE gas turbine frame 6B old upgraded
to Mark V, at start up the temperature control starting at 40% speed, and the speed going up very
slow up to 47% and held for 2 seconds then going down,the IGV angle in control from 34 to 86.
so please can you help me to overcome the early starting of temperature control.
thanks
Sameh Salama

By Neo
http://control.com/thread/1403944262

on 9 July, 2014 - 8:18 am


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Saneh
I think when you referring to temperature control it is IGV temperature control,right?
I checked CSRGVPS and CSRGVV3 blocks in the application code,i find that when the unit is
under 40% rated speed, CSRGV is specified by CSRGVPS (Part speed VIGV refrence). So the
unit should not in IGV temperature control mode. CSRGV is the output of a minimum selector
out of IGV temperature control, IGV part speed control and maximum open IGV position
(usually 86deg.)
During start up,the IGV will normally open from 34deg (My unit),and reaches the minimum
operating angle 57deg (My unit) when the unit ramped up to 85.72% corrected speed (My unit).
And i think the IGV temperature control will not take in charge before the unit ramped to 100%
corrected speed. And the IGV temperature control is not the same for combined cycle unit or
simple cycle unit.
Above is the the background knowledge i know about IGV control.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You may should check the history data of TTXM,CSRGVPS,CSRGVX,TTGXGV and any other
signal that is related to IGV control to see whether there is any unusual.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And i think the best way for you is to offer more information (combine cycle or simple cycle...),
and ask CSA for help, as he is the real master.
Hope it helps.
Best regards!
Neo

By CSA
on 10 July, 2014 - 11:42 am
3 out of 3 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo,
Here are the kind of questions one should ask after a careful reading of the original post:
When was the control system upgraded to Mark V?
When did this problem start? After a maintenance outage? After a trip from load?
What Process Alarms are active during starting?
What Diagnostic Alarms are active during starting?
[Most people simply ignore all alarms--that's because some Speedtronic turbine control panels
were so poorly commissioned that they are continually--and erroneously--annunciating lots of
alarms, and operators just become immune to them. Also, some site do so little maintenance and
up-keep that alarms come and go, and some stay for years. Alarms are important--VERY
important--and while most "operators" never have it properly explained to them it's one of their
most important job functions: to manage alarms. Managing alarms means to take action
whenever an alarm occurs. First, they should silence any audible alarm indication; then they
should read the alarm text message and acknowledge the alarm. Then they need to take action to
resolve the alarm--which is not just to check to see if the turbine has tripped, and if it's still
running, to just walk away. Resolving alarms means understanding what the alarm message is
indicating, taking action to see if the alarm message is true (such as checking the L.O. Header
Temperature to see if the High L.O. Temperature alarm is true or not), and if it is true take
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appropriate action to lower the L.O. temperature--or notify the appropriate department/individual
to take action, while continuing to monitor the condition and lower load if the L.O. temperature
can't be lowered.
Diagnostic Alarms are NOT nuisance alarms--they weren't intended to be, but that's how most
people perceive them. A lot of times it's found that during an investigation of a serious forced
outage that one or two Process Alarms had been active for some time indicating a failure of some
sensor or device that prevented operators from properly recognizing a serious condition as it was
developing. Just because a turbine continues to run when an alarm (Process or Diagnostic) is
annunciated does NOT mean the turbine is running as it should.
So, always try to remember to ask, "What alarms were annunciated?" (Here at control.com the
overwhelming majority of questioners never respond to the request to list alarms, probably
because there is no printed record of alarms (the printer is either broken, out of paper, or
unplugged). And, operators don't log alarms to the Operations Log as they should. But, people
should still be made aware that alarms are important and they should not be ignored (that's one of
our duties--to try to help people be better operators and technicians).]
What fuel is being burned during starting?
Next, you explain what should be happening versus what is being described, following with some
details of a normal, typical start-up.
While it's not uncommon for units to hit CPD-biased exhaust temperature control briefly during
acceleration--it's NOT common for them to hit exhaust temperature control at 40% speed. The
usual cause of a problem like this is that the starting means is not supplying sufficient torque
during starting to accelerate the machine so the Speedtronic is adding additional fuel to try to
help acceleration.
The IGVs, if they are modulated type, should not move from the "closed" position (typically 34
degrees angle) to the minimum operating position (usually 57 degrees angle) until, as Neo says,
about 80% speed--regardless of exhaust temperature. It seems like some logic is being forced or
some Control Constant has incorrectly been modified that is causing the IGVs to open
prematurely--which also has the effect of increasing the air flow through the axial compressor
which usually increases the torque required from the starting means, which is not helping the
problem at all.
If the machine is older, and the starting means and/or the torque converter have not been
refurbished in a while it's very likely that insufficient torque is being transmitted to assist with
acceleration, causing more fuel to be admitted, causing the exhaust temperature to be very high
(prematurely).
A lot of sites have been steadily increasing start-up and acceleration FSRs over time to
compensate for degrading starting means and/or torque converters. The starting means, through
the torque converter, should be providing torque up to about 50-60% speed for a properly
working starting means system. At that point, usually the turbine speed is greater than the starting
means/torque converter output speed and the clutch opens, and usually fuel increases slightly to
help maintain acceleration. Because the IGVs are still closed (or should be!) the exhaust
temperature is still increasing as speed is increasing. Usually, exhaust temperature peaks just
about the time the IGVs should be moving from 34 to 57 degrees. And then the exhaust
temperature should generally reach it's maximum peak--which can never by higher than the
CPD-biased exhaust temperature reference, TTRX, sometimes hitting the CPD-biased exhaust
temperature control (TTRX) but the unit should still be accelerating. Exhaust temperature will
usually start dropping around the time the IGVs move to 57 DGA, and CPD will also start
increasing faster.
But, the torque assist from the starting means (via the torque converter) is very important-especially at lower turbine speeds during acceleration. Without it, so much fuel would be
required that the fuel would be limited by CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (FSRT will be
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less than FSRACC or FSRN or FSRSU)--and the acceleration rate (TNHA) would slow, and if it
starts decelerating then the unit will trip on "bog down."
If the turbine has a diesel engine starting means, I've seen dirty air filters and dirty fuel filters
cause low torque output. If there is any white smoke coming from the diesel engine exhaust that
means there is incomplete combustion in one or more cylinders--which means that fuel is being
waster and torque production is lower than it should be. Black smoke is good--but if it's
excessive black smoke then the diesel starting means is overloaded. If the diesel was recently
serviced, it's not uncommon for the fuel control racks to be improperly adjusted. Have you
checked the diesel speed to see if it's at it's normal speed during acceleration? (The signal name is
usually PN, PN_RPM or PN_PR, or something similar.)
If the torque converter was recently refurbished, there have been several incidences of poor
quality refurbishment recently. There can be problems with any solenoid(s) in the torque
converter oil circuit, as well as oil flow problems in the torque converter oil circuit (sometimes
there are strainers which need periodic maintenance; sometimes there are manual valves which
need to be checked to make sure they are in their correct positions).
Then you ask the questioner to please write back to let us know how they resolve the problem.

By TomasEduardo on 6 September, 2016 - 7:26 am


0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
CSV, In response to the following excerpts from your post below:
>
"[Most people simply ignore all alarms--that's because some
>Speedtronic turbine control panels were so poorly
>commissioned that they are continually--and
>erroneously--annunciating lots of alarms, and operators just
>become immune to them... Alarms are important--VERY important--and
>while most "operators" never have it properly explained to
>them it's one of their most important job functions: to
>manage alarms. Managing alarms means to take action whenever
>an alarm occurs. First, they should silence any audible
>alarm indication; then they should read the alarm text
>message and acknowledge the alarm. Then they need to take
>action to resolve the alarm--which is not just to check to
>see if the turbine has tripped, and if it's still running,
>to just walk away. Resolving alarms means understanding what
>the alarm message is indicating, taking action to see if the
>alarm message is true (such as checking the L.O. Header
>Temperature to see if the High L.O. Temperature alarm is
>true or not), and if it is true take appropriate action to
>lower the L.O. temperature--or notify the appropriate
>department/individual to take action, while continuing to
>monitor the condition and lower load if the L.O. temperature
>can't be lowered.
>
>Diagnostic Alarms are NOT nuisance alarms--they weren't
>intended to be, but that's how most people perceive them. A
>lot of times it's found that during an investigation of a
>serious forced outage that one or two Process Alarms had
>been active for some time indicating a failure of some
>sensor or device that prevented operators from properly
>recognizing a serious condition as it was developing. Just
>because a turbine continues to run when an alarm (Process or
>Diagnostic) is annunciated does NOT mean the turbine is
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>running as it should.
... (that's one of
>our duties--to try to help people be better operators and
>technicians)..."
You have painted with a very broad brush the skill-set and qualifications of the Operations
Department in Gas Turbine based power plants.
I come to this site because it usually presents very useful information, although I read many
questions from Engineers that seem so obvious.
You are a very qualified, educated, and properly trained person, from your responses concerning
GE Gas Turbines.
Perhaps what you should have said is "Some operators aren't aware of how serious some of these
alarms are" or "There are instances where...", instead of insulting the highly skilled operators at
gas turbine plants, many who have come through the Navy Nuclear Program or higher level
university programs on power plant operations.
This site has been quite helpful to some of our folks, and I would hate to be banned for defending
my operators. Your technical advice, on the whole, is quite useful, but please refrain from
painting all operators as a bunch of helpless, uneducated, unskilled and unmotivated personnel
who need help in determining how to respond to an alarm.
Kind Regards

By CSA
on 8 September, 2016 - 6:56 pm
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
TomasEduardo,
Your statement, "...although I read many questions from Engineers that seem so obvious...." is
very telling and reveals you have not experienced the wide disparity in operations which exists
even in the Americas, and to a larger extent around the world.
With the exception of some EU countries (and those soon to be exiting the EU) training
requirements for power plant operators (gas turbine-based or otherwise) are very low, and getting
lower. Power plant owners and supervisors falsely believe automation will protect the plant from
every possible problem or failure--even operator-initiated problems.
You, sir, are leading a charmed life, and working with ex-Navy nuke personnel who MUST be
capable of understanding the work of their posting and rely on their shipmates to keep everyone
alive when at sea, and have LOTS of training before they step aboard a ship or sub, means the
level of thought and critical thinking in the Control Room-and probably in the plant--is very high.
You should count your lucky stars, while at the same realizing that your situation is the exception
rather than the rule.
I specifically said "most people" not all, recognizing that there are very qualified people in the
industry--but they are the exception rather than the rule. I also want to say that in most cases the
fault lies not with the operator or technician, but with the people hiring them. Most hiring
managers (not all) are not willing to pay for training, worried that after receiving the training the
employees will leave for a higher wage somewhere else--across the street, in some cases.
There is a saying about a CFO (Chief Financial Officer) asking his CEO (Chief Executive
Officer) about the risk of investing in training their employees only to have them leave. The CEO
replies, "What if we don't invest in training, and the employess stay?" That's not (yet) the
prevailing way of thinking in the ivory tower, or below.
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I hope you and your operators will continue to return to control.com--but I more sincerely hope
you and your operators will offer the benefit of your experience and knowledge to others posting
here. For my part, I will reduce the editorializing and generalizations. Sometimes after struggling
with people to try to get them to look at P&IDs and alarms to understand what happened to their
plant and how it happened--only to be told, "YOU JUST MAKE DAMN SURE IT WON'T
HAPPEN AGAIN!" (by modifying the control system programming) my frustration boils over to
my responses.
But the fact remains, your experience and current situation is the exception--not the rule; I
sincerely hope you never land in a lesser situation. And please accept my sincere apology if you
or your operators felt tainted by my broad brush (which comes from painful personal experience).
Believe me when I tell you that the audible alarm annunciator (beeper; bell; horn; etc.) in most
Control Rooms is totally disabled (in some cases broken from excessive use) and operators don't
pay any attention to any alarms when they are annunciated, and mostly only when the unit trips.
In many cases their supervisors actually tell them the control system will protect the unit and they
shouldn't take any action to reduce load or shut down without first obtaining the permission of
the Plant Manager (who's always got both eyes on the spreadsheet). And then gets extremely
angry when "the control system" doesn't do what he thinks it should, and there's a wreck.
Again, my apologies for not considering there are good operators in the world. I only wish I ran
into more of them, more often.

By Sameh Salama on 12 July, 2014 - 4:16 am


0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo
thanks a lot for your valuable reply, my unit is simple cycle. to overcome my problem issue (unit
can't reach the FSNL) I increased the IGV angle from 34 to 42 from the beginning then the unit
reaching the FSNL successfully. on the other hand with the existing IGV angle 34 the unit can't
reaching the FSNL, so please advice.
Best regards
Sameh Salama

By Neo on 12 July, 2014 - 11:44 am


Sameh Salama:
It is my honor that you think my response helps.
I advise to read CSA's response carefully. i am sure it helps.
If it still doesn't work, let us work together then.
BTW, in my opinion, you should not set IGV manually during start. it may cause damage.
Best regards
Neo

By Neo

on 15 July, 2014 - 4:41 am

Sameh Salama:
How is everything going?
http://control.com/thread/1403944262

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Did you solve the thermal blockage problem by increasing the start means torque?
Best regards
Neo

By Sameh on 21 July, 2014 - 5:35 am


0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo,
Already i checked the diesel engine loaded speed which was 2320 rpm and replace the torque
converter by refurbished one and the inside pressure reached 120 psi as the old one pressure was
58 psi. still the same problem (after starting the turbine exhaust temperature coming very high in
short time (20% speed temp 140C, 40% speed 500C) as the temperature control starting from
40% of speed. furthermore i remove the fuel nozzles and cleaned.
for your kind information this problem not found before the last MI since 5 months ago.
I need to share with some control snap shots
thanks a lot for your always support.
Sameh Salama

By Neo

on 22 July, 2014 - 10:09 am

Sameh Salama:
Glad to receive your reply.But this is out of my capability, lets ask CSA for help.
And your problem seems complicated. If it is not caused by lack of torque produced by
startmeans, will it be the fuel system isn't calibrated properly? Or the control constant is not set
properly in FSRSU block. It really confuses me.
I hope CSA will give guidance.
Best regards!
Neo

By Sameh

on 30 July, 2014 - 9:23 am

CSA,
Already i checked the diesel engine loaded speed which was 2320 rpm and replace the torque
converter by refurbished one and the inside pressure reached 120 psi as the old one pressure was
58 psi. still the same problem (after starting the turbine exhaust temperature coming very high in
short time (20% speed temp 140C, 40% speed 500C) as the temperature control starting from
40% of speed. furthermore i remove the fuel nozzles and cleaned.
for your kind information this problem not found before the last MI since 5 months ago.
I need to share with some control snap shots.

http://control.com/thread/1403944262

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