UrbanPlanning

JanGehl:Architectsknowverylittleaboutpeople
18.3.2015,11:58Uhr

Helikeshighrisesonlyfromfaraway,hethinkscarsshouldbebannedfromcitycentersandhewantsthepublicspacetobetheliving
roomofacity:ThedanishurbanplannerJanGehlvisitedBaselonanofficialmission.VonMatthiasOppliger

JanGehl:Trafficislikewater,itgoeswhereitcan.Andwhenitcantgosomewhere,itstops.(Bild:BasileBornand)

ZurdeutschenVersiondiesesArtikels.
AsadressofwelcomeJanGehlhandsabusinesscard.Printedonitsbackisaphotography.Itshowsthetypicalyellowredtramfrom
Baselland.ThisshouldbeinSwitzerland.Gehlgatheredthevariouspicturesonhisbusinesscardsduringnumeroustravels.
DespitehishometownCopenhagenbeingoneofthemostliveableplacesoftheworld,thedanisharchitectJanGehlgetsaboutalot.With
hiscompanyGehlArchitectshehelpscitiesaroundtheworldtobuildcitiesforpeople.Afewdaysago,hevisitedBaseloninvitation
fromthelocalplanningdepartment.WemethimoutsidetheGundeldingerfeld,whereheheldawellattendedpubliclectureabout
sustainablecitiesthedaybefore.
JanGehl,howmanystepsdidyouwalksofartoday?
Iknowthatprecisely(hefumblesforsomethingandbringsoutalittlereddevice).Thisiscalledapedometeranditwasgiventomebythe
mayorofKaliningrad.ItsaysIwalked5000stepssofar,butactuallyitshouldbemore.SoIhavetowalkanother5000stepstoday.Youget
sevenmoreyearstolive,whenyouwalk10'000stepsaday.
Wherehaveyoubeen?
Ihavebeenwalkingaroundwiththesecrazypeopleherealloverthisneighbourhood(Gundeldingen).
Ivereadsomewherethatyouliketostrollaroundacityandthatyoualwaysbringyourlittlecameraalong.What
picturesdoyoutake?

Peoplemostly.Peopleusingpublicspaces.AndImalsointerestedingoodsolutionstoplanningproblems.Or,ofcourse,insillysolutions.I
usethispicturesinmypresentationsasIdidyesterday.Orinmybooks.Ivedonethisonfivecontinentsforfiftyyears.SoIvegotalotof
picturesbynow.Picturesofpeoplearealwaysinteresting.Youcangoonforhourslookingatthem,butbylookingatpicturesofhousesor
motorcarsyouwillgetboredprettysoon.
DidyoutakeapictureinBaseltoo?
Ihaventhadtimetotakemany,becauseweworkedalotduringmystay.

Themutualloveaffairbetweenpeopleandtheircarshas
waned.
Butdidyoutakeone?WhatdrewyourinterestwalkingthroughthestreetsofBasel?
ThefirstpictureItookwasofthelittleferryboatontheRhine,whichwasnotpropelledbyanythingbutthesunandthestreamingriver.Its
genius.AndIalsotookoneoftheMnsterplatz.Ilikeit,itisafineexampleofagoodoldcitysquare.Itsdimensionsarewithinthehuman
scale.Youcanstillseethepeoplestandingatthefarend.Modernsquaresareoftenbuiltoutsidethehumanscaleandthereforeyoulose
senseofitsdimension.
Justafewyearsago,thisexactsquarewasregularlyusedasparkingspace.Nowwehavesomehowmanagedtogetridof
them.
Thisisageneralpatternallovertheworld.Themutualloveaffairbetweenpeopleandtheircarshaswaned.Peoplestarttothinkthere
mightbeotherqualitiesincitiesthanjustmakingspaceforcars.
ItskindofaclichtoaskaforeignerifhelikesBasel.Butwithyou,itactuallymakessense.Therefore,howdoyoulike
Basel?
SinceIamonlyhereforashortstayIcantsaytoomuch.ButIhavethefeelingthatitisanicecity.Evenmoreimportantly,Ifeelthatthe
spiritintheplanningdepartmentandamongthepoliticiansIvemetispromising.Itrulybelievethesepeopleareseriouslyworkingon
improvingthiscity.IfeelconfidentandIfeelcomfortable.
However,amuchmoreinterestingquestionis:WhatdidntyoulikeaboutBasel.
OnethingwhichIcommentedon,wasthefactthatthereisalotofasphaltinthiscity.Asphaltisforcars,bussesandbicycles.InBaselcars
andpeopleallseemtohavethesamepriority.ThereforeIsuggestedthatallpedestrianareasincludingsidewalksbecelebratedbyshifting
themoverastringofyearsintobeautifulstoneareas.Thissendsoutaclearmessage:Wewouldlikeyoutobehereandthispublicspace
shouldbecomethelivingroomofthecity.
YoumadeCopenhagenoneofthemostliveablecityworldwide.WhendoyoustartdoingyourmagicinBasel?
IcouldstartonMonday.
Butyouwont?
No,Ineedanofficialinvitation.ButIcaneasilyseethatwecouldhavefuntogether.Wecouldincreasetheliveabilityinthiscity.Who
knows,wemightevenfindsomekindofformalcollaboration.

Publicspaceshouldbecomethelivingroomofacity.(Bild:BasileBornand)

Whatadvicedidyougivetoourplanners?
Iamnotastrongbelieveringivingadviceafteronly24hoursinanycity.Butmygeneraladvicetoallcitiesisthattheyshoulddoa
systematicsurveillanceofwhatisgoingoninthecity,howpeopleareusingit.Itisexactlythesamewhattrafficengineershavedonefor
decades.Theyknoweverythingaboutthelifeoftraffic.Andwegenerallyknownothingaboutthelivesofthepeople.Itisawellknownthing
thatyouplanforthethingsyouhaveinformationabout.Thethingsyouknow,youtakecareof.Thisisourmessage:Getinformationabout
howyourcityisusedandthenimproveitwhereitneedsimprovement.
Yourformulaisquitesimple:Thefewerthecars,themoreliveableacityis.Inreality,thereisahugeuproarwithevery
parkingslotthatistakenaway.
OnlyifitsnotdonebyGod.HaveGodonyoursideandeverythingwillbealright.
Wehavetoprayforlesstraffic?
Youcouldalsoprovideinformationabouthowothercitieshavedealtwithtraffic.Andthattheleveloftrafficissomethingwhichcanbe
influenced.Peoplehavetoknowthatacitywithlesstrafficishealthier,moresustainable,andmoreliveable.
Howdoyouchangepeopleandtheirhabits?Forexample:Ifsomeonedoesntlikewalkingandbicycling,thispersonwill
probablycontinuedrivingbycar.
Lethim.Becausetherewillbeotherpeoplewhoaremoreconcernedabouttheenvironmentandtheirhealth.Thegoalhastobetosteadily
increasethepartofthepublictrafficwhichisdonebyyourownenergyorpublictransportation.Manycitiesaroundtheworld,smallor
large,havebeenquitesuccessfulindoingthis.Ifitisattractivetousethebicycle,peoplewilluseit.Ifpublictransportationworkswell,
peoplewilluseit.Ithastobecomeagoodorevenbetteralternativetoyourcar.Trafficislikewater,itgoeswhereitcan.Andwhenitcant
gosomewhere,itstops.

Trafficislikewater,itgoeswhereitcan.

Soitismoreaquestionofoptionsinsteadofrules?
Wefoundpeoplesbehaviordependsonwhatyouinvitethemtodo.Themorestreetsyouhave,themoretrafficyouget.Amoreattractive
publicrealmwillbeusedbymorepeople.OneexampleisthecongestionrateinLondon,whereyouhavetopayeightpoundstoenterthe
citycenterwithyourcar.Thenextday,therewere20percentlesscars.Acityhastheleveloftrafficitinvites,alsopeopletendtoaccepta
situationwhenitisgivenbyGod.Wefoundthatitiseasiertoreducetraffic,ifGodhelpsus.ForexamplewhentheEmbarcaderoFreeway,
whichwasthelifelinetoSanFrancisco,gotdestroyedbyanearthquakeeverybodyexpectedthecitytodie.Butafterthreemonthsthey
noticedthattheyhadnoproblematall.TodaySanFranciscoismuchmoreliveablethankstothatearthquake.Thatiswhy,whenwestart
workinginacity,weaskthemdoyouhaveearthquakeswhichcantakecareofthisorthatdisruptivestreet?.
Yesterdayafteryourlecture,someoneaskedyouaboutparticipation.ThisisahugesubjectinBasel.Howcanacity
involveitsinhabitantsinurbanplanning?
Ihavebeenteachingarchitecturefor40years.AndIamaverystrongbelieverineducationandinformation.Alltheseissuesaboutmakinga
liveablecityforyourselfandyourchildrenandyourgrandchildrenissomethingthatpeopleareextremelyinterestedin.Myexperienceis
thatifyoushowpeoplebetteralternatives,thentheywillunderstand.Ithinkparticipationisgreat.Butpeoplehavetobeproperlyinformed
ofwhattheiroptionsare.Ifyouskiptheinformationpartandjustsaythatyouwanttotakeawayalltheparkingspaceinthecitycenteryou
willhavearevolution.Ialwaystellthesamestory:WhenmywifeandIhadour45thanniversarywedecidedtotakeourbicyclestothe
restaurantandpedaledsidebysidethroughCopenhagen.Wewerebotharound70andwesuddenlyrealizedhowmuchbetterourcityhas
become.Ithinkthisisthemostimportantthing:Everymorningwhenyouwakeup,youhavetofeelthatyourcityisalittlebetterthanthe
daybefore.Thatisanicefeeling,becauseitgivesyouhopeforthegenerationstocome.
Thisisyoururbanisticvision.Howdoyoupreventitscorruptionthroughcompromises?
Ofcoursetherearecompromises.Andofcoursewhenwefinishajobataplaceweleavethemafantasticplanandwhenwecomebackafter
afewyearsweseetheyhaveonlydone60percentofit.Thatispartoflife.InthemanyyearsIhaveworkednowinimprovingcities,Ihave
seensomanywonderfulturnarounds.ThehardestcaseIknowisLondonwheretheyhaveanumberofcommitteeswhoarestilldiscussing
whatwesuggestedtothemtenyearsago.RecentlyIhavebeentoPerthinAustralia.IdidmyfirstconsultancyofPerth22yearsago,inthis
timePerthturnedfrombeinganawfulcitytoawonderfulcity.Wheretherewerecarsanddesertedstreetstherenowarepeoplewalking
aroundanddrinkingcappuccinos.Thismakesitworthwhiletobeanelderlyperson.
Becauseyoucanseeprogress?
BecauseIcanseethesethingshappen.

Citiesshouldtreatitsinhabitantsbetterthantheircars.(Bild:BasileBornand)

Youhadyourfirstcontactwiththehumanaspectofarchitecturethankstoyourwife,apsychologist.Sheaskedyou,why
architectsneverthinkaboutwhattheirbuildingsdotopeople.Arepsychologiststhebetterarchitects?

NoIdontthinkso.Buttheyhaveanangleoflookingattheworldwhichisdifferent.Theconversationswithmywiferevealedthatthewhole
aspectofsocialandpsychologicalscienceswascompletelymissingintheeducationofarchitecture.Anditstillis.Theylearnverylittleabout
peopleinlandscapearchitectureschoolsorinplanningschools.Inthesixtiestherestartedtobeagreateropennessbetweenthedifferent
scientificdisciplines.Thetraditionalwayofdoingthingsandthinkingaboutthemwasbeingquestioned.Allthisledtowindowsbeing
openedandpeoplecrossingborders.Ikindofgotcaughtinthisandspentthenext50yearstryingtofindoutmore.Nowadays,allthisis
muchsoughtafterandourworkisspreadimmenselyallovertheworldbothwithmybooksbeingtranslatedin30languagesandour
companyworkinginfivecontinents.
Yousaidarchitectureisabouttheroombetweenthebuildings,notabouttheirform.Iguess,theremightbeafewso
calledstararchitectswhowouldratherdisagree.
Letthem.TherewasthisguyataconferenceinLondon.Hesaid:Ifeelsorryforyou,architects.Becauseyourmeansofcommunicationisa
stillphoto.Andonastillphotoallyoucanseeisform.Soconstantlyyoucommunicateformtoeachotherandyougetmoreandmore
obsessedwithform.Thisisnotarchitecturethisissculpture.Architectureistheinteractionbetweenformandlife.Andarchitectureis
goodonlyifthisinteractionworks.Thesameistrueforcities.Itsnotaboutbuildingsandstreets,itsabouttheinteractionoflifeandthe
physicalenvironment.Itisthisdimensionofarchitectureandplanningwhichhasbeenpushedoutbythemodernists.Thereforeweneeda
newplanningparadigm:Citieshavetobeliveable,healthyandsustainable.

Afterfiveorsixstoriesyoustopbeingpartofthecity.
InBaselwearesoproudofourownstararchitects,theyseemtobeallowedtobuildalmostanything.Inrecentyears
theyincreasinglystartedbuildinghighrises.
Ihaveanumberofviewpointsabouthighrises.Certainlyyoushouldneverbuildhighrisesinwindyclimatesornearthenorthsea.
Generally,highrisesareverynicewhenyouseethemfromfivekilometersawayorwhenyouareinthetopfloor.Butwhenyourecloseor
whenyoureinthethirdfloortheresnotmuchtobesaidaboutit.InmybookIalsopointout,thatafterfiveorsixstoriesyoustopbeing
partofthecityandstartbeingpartoftheairlinesystem.Youlosecontactwithyourcity.Therecanbereasonstobuildahighrisebutithas
tobedonewithsensitivity.
Youreasharpcriticaboutarchitectureandurbanplanning.Howcomeyourestillsuchanoptimistic?
Iamincreasinglyoptimistic.ThatisbecauseIhaveseensomanythingschangetothebetteronthegroundofcommonsense.Wereally
knownowhowtocleanupafterthecarsintheexistingcities.WhereIseethegreatestproblemsareinthefastgrowingcitiesofthethird
world.Butallthethingswetalkedaboutcanbedonetheretoo.Becausetheyarecheapandeasytodoandeverybodyprofitswhenmoreis
doneforthepeople,walkingandbicycling.
JanGehl
Ihavegratuatedfromarchitectureschoolin1960.Thatwasthealltimelowestpointincityplanning.Itisthistrenchantbutcharmingcritiquewhich
issomewhatofatrademarkforJanGehl.The78yearoldfromCopenhagenhasdedicatedhisprofessionallifetothehumanaspectincity
planning.ThankstohisworkattheuniversityofCopenhagenfordecades,hishometownnowisoneofthemostliveablecitiesintheworld.Withhis
companyGehlArchitectshehelpscitiesaroundtheglobetobuildcitiesforpeople.
Facebook
Twitter
Email Print

Themen

Verkehr,Architektur,ffentlicherVerkehr,Stadtentwicklung,Basel,Stadtleben
KeineThemenverknpft

verffentlicht

18.3.201511:58

zuletztgendert

23.7.201514:00

ArtikelKurzlink

www.tageswoche.ch/+fmm3q

WebAnsichtzumKommentierenundWeiterleiten://www.tageswoche.ch/+fmm3q