FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

Record of meeting
Firearms Industry Reference Group 26 August 2015 2:30pm-3:30pm AEST
Commonwealth Parliamentary Offices Sydney
Attendees
Attendee

Agency/Organisation

The Hon Michael Keenan

Minister for Justice and the Minister Assisting the

Prime Minister on Counter-Terrorism
Adviser

Pete Soros
Luca Scribani Rossi
Geoff Jones
David McNabb
Catherine Fettell
Rod Drew
Robert (Bob) Schwarz
Katherine Jones

National Firearms Dealers Association

Sporting Shooters Association of Australia
Field and Game Australia
Shooting Australia
Shooting Industry Foundation of Australia
Independent expert
Attorney-Generals Department

(s 22)

Meeting opened 2:25pm

Introduction

Minister Keenan
o Advised those present that the purpose of the meeting was for representatives from
the firearms industry to have an opportunity to have a conversation with the
decision maker and to address any misconceptions.
o Following the Martin Place Siege the Government has been asked to consider ways
to improve the National Firearms Agreement.
o What we will do is to update the technical elements appropriately, such as if there
have been appreciable improvements in the technology. This is the reason why the
Adler has been temporarily suspended.
o But the review is also an opportunity to simplify the National Firearms Agreement to
assist the firearms community, for example in relation to sport shooting.
o During this process it is hoped that we can meet monthly to discuss these issues.

The Minister handed the floor over to Bob Schwarz to give a contemporary and historical overview
of the industry.

Bob Schwarz
o Mr Schwarz noted that he has had a long involvement in the industry and he has
also has commented on the industry for a long period of time.
o Reflecting on the 1996 buyback Mr Schwarz noted that:
Victoria was compliant as they had a form of registration
NSW was not so good as their registration system was flawed
Tasmania had no registration but the compliance was quite good
Page 1 of 5

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

o
o

o
o

o
o
o

WA compliance was quite good, and

Queensland was not very successful.
Mr Schwarz has worked with clubs and organisations to assist in their compliance
with the National Firearms Agreement.
99.9% of shooters are quite genuine.
this may be because the demographic tends to be older, with an average
age of 40-50 years old.
Despite their compliance Victorias registration process had a number of flaws.
As a result funding was provided to set up a firearms identification system in order
to track firearms.
this was the precursor for the National Firearms Interface (NFI).
Some of the initial data entry issues led to longer term problems in that it incorrectly
labelled people as being non law abiding.
On the National Handgun buyback Mr Schwarz suggested that no illegal firearms
were bought back during the handgun buyback.
Additionally, some dealers rorted the system by only handing in the component that
was required for the buyback requirement to be satisfied and then on-sold the
remaining components.
Mr Schwarz also suggested that amnesties dont work as there are a lot of guns in
the marketplace that remain unregistered.

Minister Keenan
o Thanked Mr Schwarz for his summary.
o Noted that at this stage it is best to set the scene for our future meeting and get a
clear understanding of the issues that we face so we can come back to these issues
next time with some proposals.
o Noted that, given time constraints industry member would now be able to speak to
their priority issues for a few minutes to establish the framework for future
discussions.

Luca Scribani Rossi National Firearms Dealers Association

o Noted that the meeting of the Firearms and Weapons Policy Working Group earlier
in the day had been good.
o Something that has been identified as a significant issue is the inconsistencies in the
application of the National Firearms Agreement.
o In addition, the challenges of recognition of a licenced firearms user to be able to
move interstate with their licence and/or firearm, including:
mutual recognition of licences, and
the transportability of firearms.
o Gave the example of a firearms show where industry was prevented from showing a
particular firearm due to the issue of mutual recognition and transportation of the
firearm.
o The fee and processing structure for application for a permit to purchase a firearm is
distorted, which in the view of industry is inefficient and is having a negative
economic effect.
Page 2 of 5

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

o
o
o
o

o
o

Communication between states is also an issue. Mr Scribani Rossi has firearms still
registered to his company that he sold in 2011.
However the firearm has been legally registered in Tasmania.
In addition, the record keeping on people who should not be permitted to hold a
firearm may not be shared adequately among jurisdictions.
On entrepreneurial dealers that rort the amnesty arrangements, Mr Scribani Rossi
is clear that they also do not want those people to be in the industry as they are
tainting the industry through their involvement in it.
Industry would like to see greater uniformity of the National Firearms Arrangement
and practical solutions being implemented into the National Firearms Agreement.
Suggested the possibility of recognising the genuine use of a firearm, not necessarily
the genuine need aspect.

Minister Keenan
o The National Firearms Agreement is not a Commonwealth document; it is an
agreement between the jurisdictions.
o It is the responsibility of each jurisdiction to implement it as they see appropriate.

Rod Drew Shooting Industry Foundation of Australia

o The discussions at the FWPWG meeting in the morning identified that a lot of the
solutions will be reached through improvements in the Information Technology (IT).
need to have real time IT across jurisdictions.
o Gave the example of a prohibited person who is identified as prohibited in Victoria
for example, but then is not recognised as such until some-time later in another
jurisdiction.
this has come up frequently.
even the 1996 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) discussions were
considering this.
o There was a review of data held by jurisdictions in 2007 which found that there were
serious flaws in the integrity of the data.
This needs to be cleaned up properly.
o Reflected that the data from the last 10 years is fairly reliable, it is the older data
that is problematic.
o Also reflected on interstate attendance at competitions that there are number of
obstacles to this, for example, Tasmania requires people to hand a firearm in to a
police station overnight. In practice this doesnt occur.
o Another example was people participating in dog trials.
In these events competitors are required to fire a firearm that does not have
live ammunition. In Victoria a competitor is still required to hold a licence in
order to participate, however, in WA a permit may be issued allowing a
person to fire a firearm.
Aside from the inconsistency in application a further problem is that Victoria
will not recognise the Western Australian permit, which prevents a person
from WA competing in Victoria.
o Also noted that moving firearms around the country is also problematic.
Page 3 of 5

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

NSW doesnt allow casual use of a firearm from outside of the state, such as
stopping to hunt while on holiday or similar.
Restated that a key point is IT.

Catherine Fettell Shooting Australia

o As a representative of Shooting Australia, their focus is on competitions.
o The lack of harmonisation between states is the source of a lot of the difficulties that
the sports shooting industry faces.
o Understand that there wont be wholesale changes to the National Firearms
Agreement but simplification and updating of some of the obstacles would be
extremely helpful.
o These obstacles have created substantive hurdles to people entering the sport.
o Fully supportive of a firearms database.
o A key issue is athletes taking firearms out of the country and also the problem of
importation of firearms into the country by international competitors.
o Prohibition of certain completion firearms limits the ability for Australians
competing in some events and it also creates an issue for Australia in terms of
hosting international events where these firearms are prohibited.
o Would like to see an understanding of the issues that are faced by the sports
shooting community.
o There is a continual feeling of being unsure of whether or not further changes will
affect the use of particular firearms and limit further the events competitive
shooters can participate in.
o Amnesties also take firearms out of the community which also inhibits broader
participation in sports shooting.
having a small second hand firearms market particularly affects the junior
shooters.
o The restriction on the use of firearms by minors is also an impediment.

Geoff Jones Sporting Shooters Association of Australia

o Queensland amnesty was successful and this was discussed at the morning meeting
of the Firearms and Weapons Policy Working Group.
o Customs regulations are prohibitive at the moment.
there is an opportunity for engagement with industry and associations on
better practice in managing the regulations around importation of firearms.
o Some of the aspects of the National Firearms Agreement that seemed sensible in
1996 seem to have had no benefit and have been quite costly to attempt to
implement.
o A reinterpretation of the implementation of the NFA and an addressing of the
issues that have no benefit would be helpful.
o There is a significant pest control problem in Australia which cant be addressed
adequately under the current National Firearms Agreement.
o While public safety is paramount there is also an opportunity to address the
non-firearm using publics suspicion of the firearms industry.

Page 4 of 5

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

David McNabb Field and Game Australia

o Their focus is the continuation of a longstanding cultural tradition of hunting.
Hunting is the key interest and firearms play a part in that in so far as they are
necessary to carry out the act.
o Jurisdictional harmonisation is important.
o Noted that in South Australia membership with Field and Game is precipitated on
approval by SA Police.
o Stated that there have been very few changes in the core design of firearms so the
technologically based changes dont need to occur.
o Evidence based decision making is key and that is what Field and Game is seeking.
o There is opportunity for improvement on the existing NFA.
o There should be consequences for those that do conduct themselves improperly but
that should not be to the detriment of law abiding firearms users.
o Noted that Canada have gone down the path of establishing a central registry and
there are good lessons to learn from their experience as there were flaws in its
implementation.
o Keen to address the misconceptions in the community and to ensure the focus is on
illegal firearms.

Minister Keenan
o Thanked attendees for their views.
o Hopes to meet monthly and propose early-mid September for the next meeting,
possibly 16 September 2015.
o The Ministers focus primarily will be on what the Commonwealth can do in the
short term.
(s
47B)
o

(s 47C)

Meeting Closed at 3:35pm

Page 5 of 5

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

Discussion Summary
Firearms Industry Reference Group
Wednesday 16th September 2015
1. Welcome

The Minister:
reflected that at the previous meeting it was an opportunity to hear from those present of
their main concerns and noted that he hoped that the group can respond to some of the
issues raised.
thanked the group for travelling to Canberra.
welcomed Tim Bannister (SSAA) and Russell Bate from Firearms Safety Foundation.
noted that a lot of issues raised at the previous meeting were in the purview of the States
and Territories and that:
o some of these are being followed up with the states and territories, and
o Katherine Jones will be meeting with the states and territories in the next week.
noted that the Department has received many submissions and these will assist.
noted that the government is keen to simplify the regulations and the bureaucracy to lessen
the red tape for firearms users.

2. Regulation

Minister Keenan opened the meeting on item two regulation.

Minister Keenan thanked Catherine Fettell for sending through the submission from
Shooting Australia, and noted that it highlighted some of the challenges faced by Sports
Shooters.
Ms Fettell noted that some sports shooters were experiencing these challenges set out in
the submission at the moment.
Minister Keenan noted that the Department had contacted NSW and queried whether there
were any problems.
o Ms Fettell thanked the Minister for this and indicated there were still a small
number of people that had difficulties.
o The Minister noted that it was his understanding that no one had been limited from
bringing in their firearm.
o Ms Fettell noted that eventually everyone did, but some were still waiting until
yesterday for finalisation.
o Ms Fettell noted that her organisation dedicated somebody to assisting in the
paperwork for over a month.
The Minster also notes that Shooting Australias submission noted specific matches where
there were some challenges.
Ms Fettell agreed. She then also noted that her submission raised the issue of barrel length
and calibre requirements of certain firearms, which are not permitted in Australia.

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

1

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

Mr Bannister noted that he had been discussing regulations with Australian Border Force
today.
The Minister queried whether Mr Bannister had seen the proposed regulations, but Mr
Bannisters answer was unclear.
Mr Bannister also noted that the Commonwealth Firearms Advisory Council (CFAC) had
historically been a good communication mechanism for communication between industry
and government as it prevented rumours or innuendo.
The Minister reflected that if a committee such as CFAC was something that might be useful
then it could be useful to consider how ongoing communication could be achieved as the
current consultation process concludes.
Mr Schwarz noted that because of Australias firearm measurements and criteria it means
that Australians often have to compete outside of the normal regulations for the specific
sports:
o this means that Australian competitors are in breach of the international standards
for shooting.
Mr Schwarz noted that when Australian competitors go overseas it means they use
regulation firearm but havent been able to practice with that firearm.
The Minster asked for an example and Ms Fettell noted two events in the 1500s world
champs events held in WA in the schedule of events that were not able to be held in
Australia.
Ms Fettell noted that these were events where the barrel of the semi-automatic is less than
4 inches.
The Minister queried wether other countries are affected by having the same restrictions.
o Ms Fettell noted that these competitions are usually conducted in Europe to lessen
the effect of these restrictions.
Tim Bannister noted that the Police and Firemen games had the worst attendance for the
firearms component of any of these games.
The Minister queried whether it could be useful if specific matches were set out in the NFA
or NHA that exempted some of these, if that would assist.
Katherine Jones noted that if there was an agreed list of identified matches that was written
into the NFA or NHA then there would be complications around achieving this, but that this
meeting was an opportunity for industry to provide their views about this.
o Mr Schwarz noted that there had been some tweaking done after the NHA was
agreed to, as it hadnt been workable.
o Ms Fettell noted that the .46 calibre was allowed following the NHA, and if that
tweak hadnt occurred then that match wouldnt exist.
o Ms Fettell thought that expanding the types of handguns that were permissible
would be beneficial.
(s 47C)

o
o

.
Ms Fettell noted that Shooting Australia has 16,000 members and they all shoot at
targets.
Ms Fettell did not think there would be a significant increase in the number of
firearms as the people shooting those matches would add to what they have.

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

2

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

o
o

Ms Fettell noted that Shooting Australia is the process of responding to the

Departments request for clarification on these points.
The Minister noted that that will be appreciated.

(s 47C)

o
o

All around the room agree that this is a good idea.

The Minister noted that it wouldnt look at changing substantively the content, but
this could simplify it.
The meeting then discussed mutual recognition.
(s 47C)

The Minister ran through the proposed changes (refer to talking points in briefing).
(s 47C)

3. Enhancing the understanding of Firearms in Australia

(s 47C)

Ms Jones queried whether the meeting agreed.

(s 47C)

(s 47C)

Mr Bannister wished to add that that it would be good to identify that the regulations are
there to ensure public safety and also to ensure the enjoyment of firearms by legitimate
firearms users, and that the lawful use of firearms can also have benefit to society (through
environmental reasons for example).

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

3

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

Unwieldy nature of NHA

The Minister queried whether anyone had ideas for simplifying the NFA.
Mr Bate noted that the NFA reads as a piece of work put together in a hurry. Whether the
execution matches the aim is uncertain and there is a lot that can be done to make it more
acceptable to all involved.

(s 47C)

Mr Bate noted that the varied implementation of the States and Territories makes it very
difficult to develop a meaningful coordinated approach.
Mr Bannister noted that SSAA would like the genuine need issue addressed, and asked why
when going to buy additional firearms is there a second level of checking or verification?
o Mr Bannister sees a lot of this as red tape.
Ms Fettell noted that she is in process of providing examples of how this affects sports
shooters. For example, if a sports shooters firearm breaks, the delay in acquiring a new
firearm could potentially prevent them from participating in their sport. This could prevent
them from participating in an international competition.
The Minister noted that it was good that we have the written submissions to reflect on these
issues and that the department is currently considering them.

(s 47C)

Ms Fettel noted that it would be good if in the discussion/negotiation process and outcomes
didnt descend to the lowest common denominator.
Mr Bannister said that he has collated data for a dozen years on rural and urban firearm
theft. He noted that some members havent learned properly, and they are being targeted
by organised criminals.
o He said that if we see firearms as a health issue we would love to see an advertising
campaign that targets this, in particular something that focuses on securing firearms
and proper use and storage.

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

4

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

4. Magazines

The Minister noted that he has received a suggestion from stakeholders in this review
process that there is a lack of clarity regarding magazines and queried if attendees shared
this view?
Mr Bannister said that this would only be an issue for certain older firearms.
(s 47C)

Ms Fettel noted that different firearms have different capacities. The only handgun
competition that involves a magazine capacity of more than 10 is IPSC French. These events
are varied in that they have different scenarios that they present to the competitor.
o Some involve a magazine capacity as low as 6, and some a magazine capacity as high
as 32. But this is a variable, and depends on the match
o The Minister noted that it might be helpful to approach the IPSC to confirm this
information.
Ms Jones queried whether anyone had raised this issue in their submission?
Mr Bannister noted that for handguns it is an issue (see IPSC above).
Attendees understood that for long arms it already applies and is limited to a magazine
capacity of 10.
Ms Jones noted that where import permission is sought from AGD, the approach has been is
that we dont give approval where there is a capacity above 20 rounds for handguns and 30
rounds for long arms.
o Mr Bannister queried whether collectors would be exempt?
o Mr Bate said this is an example of where state regulation already places a greater
limitation than the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations 1956.

5. Other Business

The Minister asked whether attendees wished to raise any other business, or to add any
other issues to the agenda for the next meeting.
The Minister noted that a draft of the updated NFA will go to LCCSC in November.
(s 47C)

Mr McNabb noted that at the last meeting the Minster had mentioned
classifications and the Adler specifically. He asked whether there is there anything
you need FIRG members to do in relation to that?
The Minister said he didnt think so.
He had asked the MIBP to put in place a temporary ban in order to prevent
further bans.
The ban is temporary while we consider the appropriate way forward on the
NFA. We need to consult with the states and territories on this.

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

5

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

The Minister noted he expected it to be resolved at the November meeting
of LCCSC.
o (s 47C)

Mr McNabb raised the issue of South Australian legislation. He noted that the SA
Government is tabling legislation which is more or less pre-empting some of these issues.
Ms Jones noted that this was discussed at the last FWPWG industry consultation meeting;
SA explained that these changes have been under consideration for years.
Mr McNabb noted that there is a separation of powers issue, but that SA has moved a
multi-shot air rifle into Cat C, which is unusual.
o He also noted another issue being that police approval will be necessary to join a
club. This has created a backlog to March of applicants.
The Minister noted that this is not something we would address at the Commonwealth level.
SA needs to make a judgement on this, and it within their remit to do this.
Mr Bannister noted that this highlights how where there are different approaches there will
always be holes in how issues are handled. He also gave the example of information storage
and gathering.
The Minister agreed that uniformity is sensible, but that he can only work within what is in
the Commonwealths powers. He noted that he would take some of these ideas to the states
and territories but that he could not make any guarantees unless there is will from them.
Mr Bannister noted that Western Australia is a concern regarding the about the level of
personal information that is required on a WA firearms licence.
The Minister noted again that this is a matter for each state and territory.
Mr Bannister noted that the 2013 Queensland amnesty received 22,000 firearms. SSAA
would encourage a national amnesty, but would like this to be dealer fed. Mr Bannister
noted that this is a practical way of getting the firearms in the grey market that many people
either dont want or dont know what to do.

(s 47C)

The Minister noted he would come back to Mr Schwarz on this point.

The Minister thanked attendees. He noted that hopefully we can settle some of the
outstanding issues in October and then follow up in November.

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

6