NICABM HelenFisher Brain2014 v2

The Brain in Love: The
Neurobiology of Romance
A Webinar Session with

Helen Fisher, PhD
and Ruth Buczynski, PhD
The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

Contents
(Click on the section title to jump to the page)
3 Different Brain Systems for Mating and Reproduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Putting the 3 Different Brain Systems Idea to the Test . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
The Ventral Tegmental Area and Dopamine Production . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Love in the Ventral Pallidum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Rejection and Addiction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Studying Love . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
The Difference Between Young and Mature Romantic Love . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
How to Deal with Rejection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
Antidepressants and the Serotonin-Dopamine System . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
The Genes of Pair-Bonding and Attachment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14

Chemisty: Why We Fall in Love with One Person Over Another . . . . . . . . . . . .15
Understanding Personality Traits . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17
Cultural Environment and Brain Change. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
TalkBack Segment with Ron Siegel, PsyD and Kelly McGonigal, PhD . . . . . . . . . 20
What Stood Out Most . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20
How the Addiction of Romantic Love Impacts Rejection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22
How Romantic Love is a Basic Drive . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23
Sex Drive, Infatuation, and Attachment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
Thoughts on Sexual Desire, Sex, Touch, and Touch-Deprivation . . . . . . . . . . . 25
About the Speakers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28
The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

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with Helen Fisher, PhD
and Ruth Buczynski, PhD
Dr. Buczynski: Hello everyone and welcome. I am Dr. Ruth Buczynski, a licensed psychologist in the
State of Connecticut and the President of the National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral
Medicine and I am so glad that you are here with us tonight for this webinar on The New Brain Science.
Brain science, as we have discovered throughout the entire series, is so important to so many areas of
our lives. Tonight we are going to be focusing on your brain in love and to do that, we have one of the
worlds foremost experts on that: Dr. Helen Fisher.
She is a biological anthropologist and research professor at Rutgers University in the Department of
Anthropology. She is also the author of many books: Why We Love; Why Him, Why Her and she has
studied widely the whole idea of the brain and love and brain chemistry and selection and so forth. So we
have got a lot to ask you! Welcome!
Dr. Fisher: Thank you.
Dr. Buczynski: It is great to have you here and have you be part of this Brain Science series. So when
you were a kid, did you say, I want to be a biological anthropologist?
Dr. Fisher: No but you know what? I have always been an

anthropologist, looking back at it. I actually grew up in a glass house;
it was a totally glass house, and I remember even when I was six and
seven years old, I would sneak into the woods and sit on this stone
wall and watch my neighbors eat dinner.
I actually grew up
in a glass house.
Ive just always been interested in people and why they do the things they do. Even in graduate school I
would sit and watch I remember once I watched a man smoke a pipe through a telescope for about two
hours, during a party. Everybody else was at the party, and I was watching the man smoke his pipe.
Dr. Buczynski: Interesting, interesting. So, you have set out to find out how the brain works when we are
in love and why we choose particular people to love. Can you give us a little background on the way you
construct a study to find out these kinds of questions?
3 Different Brain Systems for Mating and Reproduction
Dr. Fisher: Right. Well first of all, I think that we have evolved three distinctly different brain systems
for mating and reproduction: one is the sex drive,
the craving for sexual gratification; the second
We have evolved three different
is romantic love that euphoria, giddiness,
brain systems for mating and
motivation, elation, possessiveness of early stage,
reproduction: one is the sex drive,
intense romantic love; and the third is feelings of
the second is romantic love, and
attachment that sense of calm and security you
the third is feelings of attachment.
can feel with a long-term partner.
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And I had studied for some time the evolution of pair bonding and monogamy and attachment, and I
began to think to myself, Gee, I would like to discover what is going on in the brain with all three of
these basic brain systems the sex drive, romantic love, and
feelings of attachment. And I thought to myself, the easiest
I first went through all
one that I could probably study and begin with is romantic
the literature, looking
love, because attachment is a very complex feeling and a
for any traits linked with
lot of other people understand the brain circuitry of the sex
drive, or at least the basics of it. So I thought I would start
brain systems associated
with romantic love.
with romantic love.
And I first went through all of the psychological literature,
looking for any traits linked with any brain systems that were associated with romantic love. And I
assembled a group of traits that are largely defined, largely related to intense feelings of romantic love.
And I looked at those traits, and I thought to myself, I wouldnt be surprised, if I looked in the brain, I
could find activity in the dopamine and norepinephrine system, because those are the things that give
you the elation, the focus, the motivation, the energy, the butterflies in the stomach, et cetera. And maybe
I would find that there were low levels, low activity in the
serotonin system, because lower activity in the serotonin
I would measure the same
system is linked with obsessive thinking and compulsive
brain when it was feeling
doing.
romantic love and when it

was in a relaxed state.
And I thought to myself, Well, Im going to put people into

a brain scanner and then, of course I had to design the
project. So as it turned out, I ended up deciding that I would
measure the same brain when it was feeling intense feelings of romantic love, and also the same brain
when it was in a relaxed, still state.
Putting the 3 Different Brain Systems Idea to the Test

So what we did eventually was we had two pictures: the person who was madly in love would bring in
one photograph of somebody who they were madly in love with, and they would also bring in a neutral
photograph of somebody who, when they looked at that photograph, it called forth no positive or negative
feeling it is just neutral.
And so my plan was to put them in the machine and have them look
for thirty seconds at the person they were in love with, and then for
thirty seconds at the neutral photograph, and compare those groups
of brain scans.
When you are

madly in love with
somebody, you
cant stop thinking
about them.
The problem with that is when you are madly in love with somebody,
you cant stop thinking about them, and I worried that the intense
emotion when you are madly in love would bleed into the neutral
photographs. And so I put in a distraction task, and I would cast a large number on a screen, like 8,421;
people would look at that number and, for thirty seconds, count backwards in increments of seven, which
actually drives all the blood to a tiny little part of the parietal lobe linked with counting.

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So this way, it was a twelve-minute experiment, and they would look first at their sweetheart for thirty
seconds, then count backwards for thirty seconds, then look at the neutral for thirty seconds, and then
count backwards again. And it was six rotations, twelve minutes so it was positive, count back, neutral,
count back, positive, count back, et cetera. Sometimes we started with the neutral instead. So that was our
first experiment...
Dr. Buczynski: The neutral was a person?
We were able to capture, in

the brain, what is going on
when you are feeling that
intense rush of romantic love.
Dr. Fisher: The neutral was a person of the same age,

the same gender, and only the head, and
Dr. Buczynski: The same gender as their love object?
Dr. Fisher: The same gender as their sweetheart. And

very often I live in New York so it was somebodys
doorman who, they really like the doorman but it calls for no intense feeling for them; or somebody at
the Laundromat, or somebody in their office who they hardly know. And so that way we were able to
capture, in the brain, what is going on when you are feeling that intense rush of romantic love, when you
are counting backwards, and also when you are feeling in a still and relaxed state.
Dr. Buczynski: And in your earliest studies, were you recruiting typically as psychologists, we use
undergrads is that what you used for your subjects?
Dr. Fisher: The reason I used and I wanted to use people of every age, and I really wanted to use gay
and straight, but because it was really the first in the world, we needed to be very, very careful with who we
chose. And we did choose undergraduates well, we chose people between ages eighteen and twenty-six.
They werent all in college; they were people that I knew who were madly in love.
And the first thing that I would do is I would interview them, and I would talk to them at great length
about their relationship, and I would do two things: I would explain exactly what was going to happen in
the machine they really had to trust Helen Fisher, because
if they dont, you know, I might be studying anxiety or fear
I did tell them, Dont
or something
Dr. Buczynski: Thats right.
think about the sex drive.

Think about times that
really gave you that rush
of intense romantic love.
Dr. Fisher: And no surprises: I went into the machine

three times myself before I ever put anybody else in I am
somewhat claustrophobic, so it was a bit difficult but I did
it, as it was important to so I could describe really what was going on. And I also, I did tell them, you
know, Dont think about the sex drive. Think about times that you had together that really gave you that
rush of intense romantic love. And we would go over some of those things.
And of course, they would run through old ones in a matter of seconds, and then theyd go on to what
happened yesterday. Whatever they did, we had discussed it. And then the day would come; I would tell
them to be dressed very comfortably; I would put them in the machine, get them very comfortable in the
machine warm, put pillows under their knees so that the back was nice and straight, gave them a panic
button so that they could come out at any time (nobody has ever pushed that panic button.)

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And then we scanned the brain while the person was doing nothing, so that we had an anatomical picture
of the brain. And then we had the functional imaging.
And so that was our first study, and then I put people who were rejected in love into the scanner. And our
third big study really was people in their fifties and sixties who said that they were still madly in love with
their partner even though they were married an average of twenty-one years.
So those are the three basic experiments.
The Ventral Tegmental Area and Dopamine Production

Dr. Buczynski: So lets start with what you found, and then we will tease out some more of that.
Dr. Fisher: Well, what we found was activity in a lot of parts of the brain, but in all of the people and
that is what we are looking for; we are looking for what everybody has in common we found activity in a
tiny little factory near the base of the brain called the ventral
tegmental area, and it is a brain region that actually makes
The ventral tegmental area
dopamine and then sends dopamine to many brain areas.
is a region that makes and
And in fact it is part of the brains reward system the brain
sends dopamine to many
system for wanting, for craving, for motivation, for energy,
brain areas.
for obsession, for seeking. It is part of the seeking system.
And in fact when I saw that in the brain, it was quite a

remarkable moment for me because I had always assumed that romantic love was an emotion you know,
from very high to very low, but a whole series of emotions. But the brain region, this ventral tegmental
area, linked with this whole reward system for wanting. This is a system for motivation, for drive. It is a
basic mating drive (romantic love) that evolved millions of years ago I think, to start the mating process.
Dr. Buczynski: Okay. And when they were looking at the doorman
Dr. Fisher: Yes.
Dr. Buczynski: you did not see this?
Dr. Fisher: No. What we did, you collect all the scans when they are looking at the person they are
madly in love with, and all the scans of when they are looking at the neutral photograph, and you put them
together and you cancel out what they have in common,
leaving the brain in love.
So you are canceling out the fact that the brain is looking
at a facial image, that the brain is looking at eyes, that the
brain is looking at certain colors and shapes. That is all
canceled out because the pictures are very similar and in
fact what is left is all of that intense emotion and drive of
romantic love.
You are canceling out

that the brain is looking at
a facial image, at certain
colors and shapes.
Love in the Ventral Pallidum

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Dr. Buczynski: And did the length of relationship, or the age of the subjects, affect that much?
Dr. Fisher: You know, length of relationship definitely did affect it. And that was, in our first experiment,
some people had fallen in love three weeks ago, and some people had fallen in love seventeen months
before that. And indeed, the longer you remain in love, the more we find activity in a brain region linked
with attachment a brain region called the ventral pallidum.
And this is a brain region that in several studies has now been
The ventral pallidum
linked with feelings of attachment. So attachment grows.
is a brain region that
has been linked with

feelings of attachment.
Dr. Buczynski: Okay. So how much can we make of knowing

that something happens in the brain? How can we use that, for
one thing?
Rejection and Addiction

Dr. Fisher: I think the most important thing that I have found, other than that romantic love is a drive,
a basic mating drive as a matter of fact, I think the sex drive evolved to get you out there looking for a
whole range of partners; I think romantic love evolved to enable you to focus your mating energy on just
one at a time. And I think that attachment, that third brain system, evolved to enable you to stick with this
partner at least long enough to raise one child together as a team.
But I learned, the most valuable thing to me was when we put

the rejected people in love. You know, I have thought to myself
a lot of people all over the world were interested in our study
of people who are happily in love but I thought to myself,
Really, you know, who cares, from a medical perspective and
a legal perspective? The problem becomes when you have been
rejected in love. That is when people kill themselves, or kill
other people, or stalk, or slip into clinical depression.
When rejected in love,

people kill themselves,
or kill other people,
or stalk, or slip into
depression.
And my hypothesis was that romantic love was an addiction a perfectly wonderful addiction when it was
going well, and a perfectly horrible and dangerous addiction when it is going poorly.
And so when we put the people who were rejected in love into the brain scanner, we not only found
activity in the ventral tegmental area, linked with dopamine, and many, many pathways in the reward
system of the brain, but I found what I was really looking for:
I was looking for activity in a tiny little area called the nucleus
The nucleus accumbens
accumbens, which I am sure you know. But anyway, that is a
brain region that is directly linked with addiction not only
is a region directly
substance abuse nicotine, heroin, cocaine, amphetamines
linked with addiction.
but also non-substance abuse gambling, sex addiction
and food addiction. So that has motivated me to believe that
romantic love is an addiction.
In fact, I work with my brain scanning partner, Lucy Brown, and she once said to me that she felt romantic
love was a natural addiction, that it evolved for a very important reason: to start the mating process, to
devote yourself to somebody else long enough to begin to raise babies.
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And I have come to believe not only is it a natural addiction, and a very positive addiction in some
circumstances, but that it evolved from animal antecedents and that it
began to really take a human form, or a forepoint form, a million years
Romantic love
ago. So it is very powerful I think it is much more powerful than the sex
is much more
drive. You know, if you ask somebody to go to bed with you, and they say,
powerful than
No, thank you, you dont kill yourself or kill somebody else.
the sex drive.
Around the world, the crimes of passion over romantic love, and all of
the obsession I mean, the songs, the poems, the novels, the sitcoms, the
operas, the plays, the ballets, the symphonies, the temples, the castles I mean, if you would take a look
and just add it up, what people talk about, second to the weather, is probably romantic love.
Dr. Buczynski: And did it matter, in terms of what you saw in the brain scans, if you had been rejected
yesterday, last week, last month?
Dr. Fisher: Yes, it very definitely did. And that was I think this is actually the best news of everything
that I have done, and that is that time does heal. We have proven
that in the brain that the longer it is since that moment of final
The best news is
rejection, the less activity you see in the ventral pallidum, in regions
linked with attachment. So the attachment to somebody sometimes
that time does heal.
slowly, sometimes rapidly but often very slowly begins to dissipate
and then of course you can go on with your life.
Studying Love
Dr. Buczynski: Okay. And have you ever had the opportunity to construct a study that follows people?
Dr. Fisher: We are doing that now actually, but that is something that really has to be done. One of our
colleagues, Dr. Bianca Acevedo, has put people into the brain scanner who are just about to marry or have
just married. And then I believe that she is going to continue on to follow them down the road and see
what happens.
You know, it is amazing that people havent studied love I mean, with the amount of crimes of passion,
it is just staggering that people have not really studied love that people have regarded it as part of the
supernatural, you know and that they dont regard fear as part of the supernatural, or anxiety, or surprise,
but then when it comes to love, we have either thought it was
invented by the Troubadours in twelfth-century France, which
It is amazing that people
is ridiculous because the oldest love poems come from four
havent studied love,
thousand years ago, and hunter-gatherer people are constantly
have regarded it as part
falling in love.
of the supernatural.
But it was interesting; I was recently at a neuroscience

convention, and I was talking with a man, and he said to me,
You know, Helen, its entirely possible that more people suffer from love than suffer from cancer. Now,
I wouldnt have any idea, but it is right up there, when you look at the legal and medical issues that we
suffer with today.
Dr. Buczynski: Well, and also pleasure.
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Dr. Fisher: Pleasure absolutely! Thats very important. You know, I do an annual study with an Internet
dating site, and the annual study is called Singles in America and we dont poll the people on the dating
site; we poll the American populous. So it is based on the US Census, so we have got the right number of
blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos, gays, straight, every age group, rural/suburban/urban, et cetera.
And I ask the question, every year, What are you looking for? and they can check a lot of boxes. There
is one box that is, Im just looking to meet a lot of people. Only three percent of men and one point six
percent of women actually check that box. I mean, people want to love, real love.
Dr. Buczynski: In your study, did you look at age difference? Like is a sixty-year-old person falling in
love, having the same impact on their brain?
The Difference Between Young and Mature Romantic Love

Dr. Fisher: Okay. We have not put we put seventeen people who were married an average of twenty-one
years into the brain scanner and studied their brain. But this was not a new love; this was they maintained
they were still madly in love with somebody they had had children with and lived with, et cetera. And we
didnt know whether to believe them; I mean, Americans seem to believe that romantic love cant last. And
we have proven that it can. You have got to pick the right person, and you have got to know something
about building a relationship but the bottom line is it can last.
And in fact, in these people who were in love long term and this is in love, not loving, but in love long
term we found activity in the same little factory, the ventral
tegmental area, pumping out that dopamine that gives you the
Americans seem to
elation. But there was one difference between those who had
believe that romantic
just fallen madly in love and those who were in love long term
love cant last. And we
and that was among those who had just fallen happily in love
we found activity in brain regions linked with anxiety.
have proven that it can.
You know, when you have just fallen in love, you are anxious:
What did I say that for? Am I too fat? How come he didnt call? He must have gone back you know
youre anxious. And among those in love long-term, those brain regions linked with anxiety are no longer
active, and new activity is found in brain regions linked
with calm and pain suppression.
Among those in love longterm, new activity is found

in regions linked with calm
and pain suppression.
But to answer your other question, I have done a lot of

surveys, survey questionnaires on romantic love, and
among those people who were in their fifties and sixties,
they showed, by this questionnaire study, exactly the same
amount of elation, focus, motivation, mate guarding,
possessiveness, intrusive thinking, constantly thinking about the person as those who are very young.
So I think this is a brain system like the fear system: you can be scared when you are ten years old; you
can be scared when you are ninety years old, in the same way. I think you can be in love when you are ten
years old actually some people are and it is going to be the same experience in the brain. Now, with
age, we learn to handle it a little bit better

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Dr. Buczynski: Right. But the dopamine you think that the sense of the reward center, that we are
experiencing the same level of chemical charge?
Dr. Fisher: Yes, I do think that. We dont know it yet, but I would predict that. Because Ive seen people
I mean, Im older and Ive seen people be really ridiculous! And Ive seen some teenagers be quite
level-headed about it. So bottom line is: I think there is going to be individual variation. But my guess is,
just like the fear system, it is going to range more by individual biological composition and your cultural
background and the way you grow up but it is not going to but age is probably not going to be as big
a factor as one thinks.
You can be in
love when you
are ten years old.
Dr. Buczynski: And I am imagining that it didnt matter a whole lot

whether they were gay or straight.
Dr. Fisher: Oh, we didnt do the gay/straight study, but that was done
in England and, yes, they found that there was no difference at all
between gay and straight. And I had long predicted that and the reason
I had predicted that is that, you know, when you are gay, who you fall
in love with is going to be different, but how you feel when you are in love shouldnt rationally be any
different. And in fact that is what the British team found.
How to Deal With Rejection
Dr. Buczynski: So if love is an addiction, and we get rejected, is there anything that we know about
getting over it?
Dr. Fisher: I think that there is a great deal that I am serious about it being an addiction, and I think one
needs to treat it as an addiction - so there are all kinds of things that one should do. I mean, I think that
among them, get rid of the cards and letters; put them in a box or put them in a closet if you can throw
them out, throw them out. Dont write, dont call. I mean, if you want to give up drinking, you dont keep
a bottle of vodka on your desk in the same way you are going to take that photograph off of your desk.
Dont call to wish them Happy New Year. Dont try to be friends, for a couple years anyway but it is
an addiction. The moment that person gives you any hope, you are right back into it again.
Dr. Buczynski: Yes.
Dr. Fisher: Get some exercise; that drives up the dopamine
system in the brain, makes you feel better. Get as many
hugs as you can or massages from friends, because that
will drive up the oxytocin system and calm you down.
Keep moving. The problem with rejection is somebody
is camping in your head, and you have got to get them
out. And if you lie down and just focus on looking at your
fingers and obsessively think about this person, that ghost
will just be revived. You have got to keep moving.
If you want to give up

drinking, you dont keep
a bottle of vodka on your
desk in the same way
you are going to take that
photograph off your desk.
I would suggest some affirmations something that has nothing to do with that person, something like, I
love being myself with a wonderful person for me something that is positive, that focuses away from

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this addiction. I would go to a twelve-step program the Love and Sex Anonymous would be good
and really understand the twelve-step paradigm, because I think it is an addiction.
You have
got to keep
moving.
Dr. Buczynski: Okay. And after a person has been rejected and they are wanting
to I mean, a part of them wants to fall in love again; another part of them is
having trouble perhaps doing that do we know anything about the brain that
would help us make it easier to fall in love again?
Dr. Fisher: Yes. Well, its a good question. Any kind of novelty drives up the
dopamine. Lets say you have got somebody who you would like to fall in love with, but you are so
obsessed with this other person. Any kind of novelty drives up the dopamine system in the brain and can
push you over that threshold into falling in love and I dont mean swinging from chandeliers; I mean
taking a vacation in a different part of the world, or a different part of the country, or a different part of
town; picking up a new hobby like going to the theater or taking ballet lessons, or going biking novelty,
novelty, novelty is going to drive up the dopamine system and help you to fall in love.
If you are beginning to like somebody, stay in touch with that person. And kissing somebody drives up
the oxytocin system and reduces the cortisol, so you can feel a deeper sense of attachment and less stress.
Certainly making love to somebody is going to trigger a lot of brain systems that are good for you, if you
like the person that you are in love with.
But the main thing is keep moving: go out; meet new people;
do new things. Dont sit down. And Ill tell you one thing:
I think there is a big mistake that both men and women do.
Women in the beginning talk a great deal about the rejection,
and after a while they are actually beginning to erase the ghost.
At some point you should begin to say to your friends, You
know, Id better not talk about this anymore because what Im
really doing when I do that is just re-traumatizing myself.
Any kind of novelty

drives up the dopamine
system and can push
you over that threshold
into falling in love.
And men dont talk enough about it they hole up and watch TV, they drive too fast, they drink too much,
and they express their depression in a different kind of way. They, I think, should begin to find something
to talk more about it.
What is interesting we have found, in those people who have been
rejected in love, and those who have just fallen madly in love There is a big
happily in love - we found activity in parts of the reward system of
mistake that both
the brain, the wanting system, that are linked with trying to figure
out the gains and losses of this situation, particularly active regions
men and women do.
when you have been rejected in love. The brain is naturally trying to
figure out, What have I lost? What have I gained? How do I move
forward? What can I learn? And so I really do think that talking therapy is a great way I mean, the brain
is built for this talking therapy, to try and establish what Ive gained, what Ive lost, how to move on.
Antidepressants and the Serotonin-Dopamine System

So if I were a therapist and Im not I am a little skeptical about a lot of these drugs that blunt the
emotions, but in fact maybe short term, so that you dont kill yourself, and so that you get some sleep and
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The brain is built for talking

therapy to establish what Ive
gained, lost, how to move on.
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you begin to eat something, a combination of maybe

antidepressants and talking therapy. But I would give
up those antidepressants absolutely as soon as possible
because they do blunt the emotions.
Dr. Buczynski: Lets talk about that because you kind

of alluded to that a little bit when you were talking about serotonin in the very beginning.
Dr. Fisher: Yes.
Dr. Buczynski: And serotonin is very connected to antidepressants. Can you flesh that out? We have got
a lot of people some who totally would understand this already but others who dont. Can we get into
that a little bit, about antidepressants and love?
Dr. Fisher: Yes. I have got a real I feel very strongly about this because I get an email from somebody
around the world almost every week on this. The bottom line is: antidepressants are really important for
some people. They need them. They need them to get out of bed in the morning. They need them to build
the kinds of relationships. But there is a psychiatrist from Harvard said a few years ago that about seventysix percent of people taking antidepressants dont need them
Dr. Buczynski: Or arent helped.
Dr. Fisher: They dont need them anymore.
Dr. Buczynski: Yes, or they are not helped anymore by the

antidepressant doesnt help necessarily the specific part of their
depression. Antidepressants help only certain people, a small
percentage of people.
Antidepressants
are really important
for some people.
Dr. Fisher: Thats interesting.

Dr. Buczynski: Irving Kirsch talked about this a lot at Harvard.
Dr. Fisher: Interesting. Well, bottom line is: romantic love is linked with elevated activity in the dopamine
system. We have established that. And serotonin dampens down the dopamine system. They have a
negative relationship: as dopamine goes up, in many cases serotonin is jeopardized and goes down; and as
serotonin goes up, the dopamine system goes down.
Because romantic love is linked with elevated activity in the dopamine system, as you take a serotonin
booster, you are jeopardizing the dopamine system and driving it down, and possibly jeopardizing the
feelings of intense romantic love.
Romantic love is linked

with elevated activity in the
dopamine system, and serotinin
dampens the dopamine system.
And also, you know, sex is an important part of

romantic love as you have sex with somebody,
you are really stimulating five of the twelve cranial
nerves in the brain, you are picking up a lot of
information about the person; you are getting hugs
from them, driving up the oxytocin. There is a real

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13
spike of dopamine; dopamine goes up as you are making love to somebody. It is also driving up the
testosterone system.
So as you blunt the emotions and really kill the sex drive, you are killing important aspects of intense
romantic love. So they might be good for people way in the
beginning of rejection, but you have got to get off these drugs so
As you have sex, you
that you can appraise people correctly, try out a few of them, and
are stimulating five
let those natural drugs do their magic.
of the twelve cranial

nerves in the brain.
Dr. Buczynski: So just to be clear with everyone who is

participating today, we are not saying that you should go off
antidepressants without having it evaluated, first of all; no one
should go off antidepressants without the supervision of their healthcare practitioner. But it is something
you need to think about because serotonin and the antidepressant can make it feel difficult to feel sexual
desire and to feel romantic love.
Dr. Fisher: And feelings of attachment, too, because it can drive down the oxytocin and vasopressin
system. I cannot tell you I wrote an article for a book published by MIT Press, and that seems to have
gotten around the world, and about once a week I get an email from somebody I dont even know where
they are from, most of them saying, you know, Ive been married for twelve years to my wonderful
wife, and she decided shed go back to school. She went back to
school, and she wasnt doing too well. She started taking one of
Antidepressants
these serotonin boosters, and a few months after that she came to
can drive down
me, and she said she didnt love me anymore. And shes acting
very strange and now shes asking for a divorce. Could it be the
the oxytocin and
antidepressants?
vasopressin system.
And really the medical community needs to study this. I need to
study it I have been too busy doing other things because there is nothing more important, really, in life,
than feelings of love and attachment to the people you care for.
Dr. Buczynski: And so, with that, again, I just want to make sure everyone on the call hears the caveat:
dont go off antidepressants without an evaluation from your medical practitioner. On the other hand, it is
an important thing to consider as you are in love, or falling in love, or trying to fall in love, because it can
be important.
Dr. Fisher: Yes.
Dr. Buczynski: Would that be a fair way to put it?
Dr. Fisher: Yes and I would say a little bit more than that. I mean, you are talking about people getting
off them; I would also warn people when they get on them
because there are all kinds of contraindications, but nowhere
Nowhere does anybody
does anybody say, This could possibly reduce your feelings
say, This could possibly
of attachment for your partner or jeopardize your ability
reduce your feelings
to fall in love. You know, I would make sure that people
of attachment for your
understand that these drugs do a lot of things to the brain.
partner or jeopardize
your ability to fall in love.

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The Genes of Pair-Bonding and Attachment

Dr. Buczynski: Yes. So I think I read somewhere that you have studied the prairie vole.
Dr. Fisher: I havent studied the prairie vole. Others have studied the prairie vole, but I can tell you about
that research, yes.
Dr. Buczynski: Can you tell us about that and why is it relevant to your field?
Dr. Fisher: Well, we are looking for some of the genes that are linked with feelings of attachment, and
very nice work with the prairie voles it is like a little field mouse and they form pair bonds; ninetyseven percent of mammals do not pair up to rear their young; very few do although wild dogs do, a lot
of birds do but so does the prairie vole.
And they have found that when a female prairie vole sees a male
and expresses attraction to him, there is a fifty percent increase of
dopamine activity in the nucleus accumbens, linked with feelings
of romantic love in people and feelings of attraction in prairie
voles.
Ninety-seven percent
of mammals do not
pair up to rear their
young; very few do.
So we are beginning to map and even more important, you

know, there was other data on the vasopressin system among prairie voles, and male prairie voles who
are very attached to a partner and are helping to build a nest and protecting the territory, et cetera, show a
certain expression of vasopressin oxytocin and vasopressin are very closely linked and also expressing
all kinds of feelings of deep attachment to their partner.
There are three

different variations
of the gene in the
vasopressin system
that seem to be linked
with attachment.
So when they took some genes out of the male prairie vole linked
with the vasopressin system, and put them in the mouse, which
does not form pair bonds, that mouse began to form pair bonds.
So we are beginning to find some of the genetics of pair-bonding.
And in a wonderful study in Sweden about five years ago, theyd

looked at 552 men, human men, and gave them various tests,
questionnaire tests, and also took genetic samples of them. And
there are three different alleles, or three different variations of
the gene in the vasopressin system that seem to be linked with
attachment. And men who had two copies of that gene showed the least attachment to their partner.
Those with one copy of the gene showed more attachment, and those with no copies of that particular
gene showed the most attachment to their partner least likely to discuss divorce, least likely to have had
a long argument in the last year, and many other things. So we are beginning to find some of the genetics
to attachment.
Now, this does not mean that culture doesnt play a role;
culture plays a huge role in how you learn to attach,
how you express attachment, who you choose to attach
to, et cetera. But until very recently, with the prairie
vole studies, we really havent understood some of the
biology that makes some people more predisposed to
make a good relationship.
Culture plays a huge role in

how you learn to attach, how
you express attachment, who
you choose to attach to...

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And, Ruth, once again, just like with what you said about serotonin boosters, you know, some people are
going to be predisposed to alcoholism. It doesnt mean they are going to end up being an alcoholic; it
means that they have to be a little bit more careful about who they hang around with, where they go, how
they use their spare time.
So the bottom line is: I am not saying that biology is destiny no, not at all. In fact, the more we understand
about biology, the more I think we are going to come to
understand how culture sculpts that biology to make us who
The more we understand
we are.
biology, the more we

understand how culture
sculpts who we are.
Dr. Buczynski: Do you think there is anything to do with

brain chemicals that affect who you choose?
Dr. Fisher: Yes, I do. And the same dating site came to me in
2005 and asked me, Why do you fall in love with one person rather than another?
Chemistry: Why We Fall in Love with One Person Over Another

Dr. Buczynski: Good question.
Dr. Fisher: And at the time I knew the psychological literature, and the basic psychological literature that
psychologists already know, was that we tend to fall in love from somebody from the same socioeconomic
background, same general level of intelligence, same general level of good looks, same religious and
social values, same reproductive goals. But, you know, you can walk into a room and everybody is from
your background and same basic values and same general level of education and intelligence and you
dont fall in love with all of them.
So I decided to see if basic biology could play a role. You know,
people will say, Well, we have chemistry, or, We dont have
any chemistry. And I thought to myself, What do they mean by
that? And so I went through all of the biological literature looking
for any trait linked with any brain system.
Basic literature was

that we tend to fall in
love with somebody
from the same
socioeconomic
background.
Now, there are all kinds of brain systems that just keep your
heart beating and your eyes blinking, but they are not linked with
personality traits. And so I found four brain systems, each linked
with a constellation of personality traits the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen system.
So I decided I would make a questionnaire to measure all of those traits, and then on this dating site,
have people take the question and watch if anybody is naturally drawn to a person with their chemical
composition, a different chemical composition whatever.
I found four brain systems

linked with personality
traits the dopamine,
serotonin, testosterone,
and estrogen system .
Thirteen million people have now taken that questionnaire

in forty countries, and actually I am now developing
a questionnaire for business because I think business
relationships are pretty important. But this is what I have
found: now, we all express all these basic systems

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dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen we all do. But we express some more than others. No
two people are alike. But there are patterns.
And if you are very expressive of the dopamine system, I call you
an explorer you have got to name these things. I also call it
the academic term is curious, energetic people. And they tend to
be novelty-seeking, risk-taking, curious, creative, spontaneous,
energetic, mentally flexible. And those are traits linked with the
dopamine system, and those people are naturally drawn to people
like themselves. They want somebody who is equally curious,
equally energetic.
If you are very

expressive of the
dopamine system, I
call you an explorer.
Those people who are very expressive of the serotonin system, I call the builder. They follow social rules;
they are traditional, they conform; they respect authority, they follow the rules; they like schedules and
plans; they are conscientious; they tend to be calm; they tend to be more religious. And they also are drawn
to people like themselves traditional goes for traditional.
The other two, the high testosterone and the high estrogen, tend to
go for their opposite. I think a good example are Hilary and Bill
Those expressive of
Clinton but I think she is the high testosterone, and I think he is the
the serotonin system,
high estrogen. The high-estrogen person I call the negotiator. And
I call the builder.
they see the big picture; they are imaginative, they are intuitive;
they have got very good verbal skills; they have got very good
people skills; they are empathetic and emotionally expressive. And of course Bill feels everybodys pain
you know, he cries easily; the whole world knows he cant stop
talking you know, he writes very long books, et cetera.
The high-estrogen
person I call the
negotiator.
And the high-testosterone type of person I call the director. Now,

these arent great terms but I am stuck with them now. But, anyway,
bottom line is they tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive,
tough-minded, good at what scientists call rule-based systems
everything from engineering to computers, to mechanics, to math, et cetera. They tend to be skeptical and
competitive (we are all competitive but we are competitive in different ways).
So those who are high testosterone on this dating site go for high estrogen, and high estrogen goes for high
testosterone. And I had a hypothesis: I thought that high testosterone would go for high estrogen and vice
versa, because I think that the very assertive type of testosterone guy needs the empathetic, the charming,
the verbally skilled, people-skilled type of partner. And I would
think that, for raising babies, the high-estrogen, empathetic,
The high-testosterone
people skills type of person could use a guy who could fix the
type I call the director.
computer but also a person who is more decisive, more assertive,
more skeptical, et cetera.
But I was wrong in my other two hypotheses: I had thought that the energetic, curious, creative,
spontaneous would go for the high-serotonin type because this person, the traditional, would offer stability
and conscientiousness and gravitas. And I thought that maybe the high-serotonin builder type, traditional,
would need the energy and the excitement and the curiosity of the high-dopamine type. But that wasnt
the case.
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Energetic, curious, creative goes for people like themselves; traditional goes for people like themselves;
and the other two types go for their opposite.
Dr. Buczynski: And as you looked at this over many, many people, did you find that men fleshed out into
all four types and women as well fleshed out into all four
types? You already mentioned that Bill Clinton seems to
Energetic, curious, creative
be the estrogen type.
goes for people like
Dr. Fisher: Yes. He is also high testosterone but the way
the brain was patterned in the womb, it must have been
patterned with more estrogen because these seem to be
built into the brain. But sorry go ahead.
themselves; traditional
goes for people like
themselves; the other two
types go for their opposite.
Dr. Buczynski: And so you find women who are high

testosterone?
Dr. Fisher: Yes. We looked in six countries out of the forty, and in every single country, including the
United States, there were many more men who scored high on my testosterone scale and many more
women who scored high on my estrogen scale.
On the dopamine scale, which is novelty-seeking, risk-taking, curious, creative, spontaneous, it was the
same. And on the traditional, people who are the builder on the serotonin scale, we found that there are
just as many traditional men as there are traditional women. So
in those two scales, it wasnt gender-skewed; in the other two it
In two scales, it wasnt
was which of course was one of many ways I checked to make
gender-skewed; in the
sure that I was correct.
other two it was.
Dr. Buczynski: And it is important for us to point out, just

because it is gender-skewed doesnt mean that all women are one
way and all men are another way. It is like it is frequently true that men are taller than women but not
always.
Understanding Personality Traits

Dr. Fisher: But very, very important. These are not cubbyholes. These are brain systems. And we all
express all of them. In fact, I recently did a study with a geneticist at Princeton, Lee Silver, who looked
at a hundred thousand of these people and no two people took my fifty-six-question questionnaire the
same way. No two people answered it the same way. We are all individuals. I am an identical twin even
we are not alike. No two people are alike.
But what is interesting is it falls into patterns. Now, for example, somebody
will show several of the traits linked in the dopamine system but not
all of them: they can be very good at math and engineering but not very
aggressive; you know, somebody can be very empathetic and see the big
picture but not really be very imaginative. So there is the variation in
people.
No two people
took my
questionnaire
the same way.
And I have now designed a new questionnaire in which I am going to be

able to pull out which parts of each of these basic brain systems you express. And so hopefully in the
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18
future, in matching people, I can understand, Well, you know, you, Ruth, you are this part of the estrogen
system, but you are low on those others. You are very high on this part of the dopamine, these traits of the
dopamine system, et cetera.
A new questionnaire
helps people
understand who
their partner is.
And I think it helps people understand who their partner is not

only who they are, but who their partner is. You know, I gave a
speech recently to couples therapists, who were very interested in
this material, and there was a woman in the second row who raised
her hand afterwards and she said, You know, Helen, I finally get it.
She said, You know, Im very high estrogen, she said, and Im
empathetic. And my husband is very high testosterone. And sometimes we begin to butt heads, and we get
into a point where we just cant solve it. It is not going to be solved we just see the world differently. And
so we throw up our hands and say, Lets go hiking.
And what they are doing is, because he is very high testosterone and high dopamine, and she is very high
estrogen and dopamine, they are skipping those traits of the dopamine and estrogen and going with what
works for them which is two people who love to explore, love to be outside, love to have energetic
conversations as they are marching through the woods. And so she was able to see, Well, okay, this isnt
going to go anywhere, but I can slip into this other part of myself where he and I really do connect.
Cultural Environment and Brain Change
Dr. Fisher: Yes. He also thinks that infant attachments could be very stable attachments or be very
anxious attachments or be very avoidant attachments, in that, what we learn in childhood we bring into
our adult relationships.
I do think that the brain changes dramatically with time, and I
do think that your new cultural environments that are healthy for
you can really alter the brain. We are now learning the newest
thing in all of the behavioral sciences is epigenetics the fact
that we now have begun to realize that your environmental input
actually can turn genes on and off. We can change who we are by
behaving differently, by being around different kinds of people
probably even by eating differently, I dont know.
The brain changes

with time, and new
cultural environments
are healthy and really
alter the brain.
But the bottom line is: the brain is very flexible; you are not stuck in your childhood patterns you can
change. With a healthy environment, you really can turn into the person that you are looking for.
Now, bottom line is: the high-dopamine type of person is very energetic, curious and creative. Can you
make them uncurious? Probably not. We do have some basics. Can you make a very traditional person less
traditional? Maybe a little bit. Can you make somebody who is stubborn not stubborn? Oh, to some extent.
But the bottom line is there is biology to behavior, just as there is
culture to behavior. But it is malleable; the brain is very malleable.
With a healthy
environment, you can

turn into the person
you are looking for.
Dr. Buczynski: Thank you. We are out of time. We have covered

a lot of ground. I appreciate first of all I appreciate the work you
have done and all the ways that you have studied this topic, and all
the ways you are continuing to study this topic. And thank you for

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the books you have written and for coming here to this series and sharing your thoughts and your wisdom
and experience with us here.
Dr. Fisher: Well, thank you for everything you have done, too, because I have really learned a lot from
watching some of your webinars.
Dr. Buczynski: Oh, thank you.
19

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TalkBack Segment with Ron Siegel, PsyD and Kelly McGonigal, PhD
Dr. Buczynski: Now, as we always do, we are going to start our TalkBack Session and we are going to
chew over some of the ideas that we heard here today. This helps us digest these ideas and understand
them better, and sometimes expand them into applications.
We have each week my two friends and colleagues, Dr. Ronald Siegel and Dr. Kelly McGonigal.
Ron is a licensed psychologist and Assistant Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School.
He is also author of several books including Mindfulness in Psychotherapy, which has been used widely
by lots of health practitioners.
Kelly McGonigal is a psychology instructor at Stanford University an award-winning psychology
instructor and the author of The Willpower Instinct.
What Stood Out Most

So, let me start with you, Ron, and lets start, as we always do, and think about what stood out to you most
in this session.
Dr. Siegel: What stood out most to me was, It is remarkable that I havent heard anybody talk about this
before, and how fascinating it is that she is simply turning the eye of a scientist toward things that are so
important in our lives and yet we tend to think of them as magical or mysterious. She is looking at them
as just phenomena: What are the factors and forces that make these things happen?
She is turning the eye

of a scientist toward
things that we tend to
think of as magical or
mysterious.
So there are many things that stood out to me.

First, is the idea that there are basically three drive systems that
operate in our love affairs the sex drive, which helps us to find
the partner, romantic love that helps us to focus on one individual
intensively for a while at least, and the attachment system that
helps us to be there as caregivers to stick together and raise
children.
That was just a very nice outline. I am sure we will talk more about those three systems.
Just how she went about studying this stood out for me. It was wonderful:
the idea of evoking feelings of romantic love, putting people in an fMRI
scanner, seeing what happens, and including the distraction period in
between.
As she said, people get hooked on romantic love well never get them
to think of something else unless we force their mind to go somewhere
else. I thought that was fascinating.
There are three

drive systems
that operate in
our love affairs.
Dr. Buczynski: Yes and using our favorite count backwards by seven!
Dr. Siegel: Yes, exactly!
The idea that romantic love is an addiction really stood out. If my wife hears this, I may get in trouble!
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Romantic love
is an addiction.
21
But I often think of romantic love in that way and see it as not our most
balanced state of mind.
I thought it was fascinating that she was exploring it in that way and
pointing out, Look at the damage that has been done in the name of
romantic love all of the crimes and all of the irrational and foolhardy behavior that people have gotten
into.
And here are just a couple more so many things stood out to me. The downside of SSRIs in this arena
is very interesting.
You were very careful to point out their utility and their importance for helping people, but indeed, they
do dampen down things that are very dopamine-intensive, such as ambition.
Dr. Buczynski: I should stop you because I dont think everyone on the webinar will know what an SSRI
is.
Dr. Siegel: Im sorry thats a good point. SSRIs are Selective
Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, which are basically antidepressants.
There is a large class of antidepressants that are used today. The ones
that are most familiar to people Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor, Paxil are
all in that category.
SSRIs are
basically
antidepressants.
Then, finally, what stood out were her prairie vole studies. The idea that prairie voles mate for life, that you
could splice their genes into mice, and then mice would start to bond, or create these kinds of relationships
was fascinating.
The idea that prairie

voles mate for life
was fascinating.
Then, ultimately and I hope we will talk about this a little bit her
studies about who gets attracted to who and why stood out as well.
Dr. Buczynski: Yes. Kelly, what stood out to you in the webinar
with Helen or in what Ron has said?
Dr. McGonigal: As someone who knows more about the neuroscience of addiction than the neuroscience
of romance and sex, what stood out for me is how really well she was describing the process of addiction
and how similar the processes seem to be in the brain, whether you are addicted to a substance or addicted
to romance.
It definitely made me think about my own experiences with love and romance.
I have been with my husband now for about fifteen years,

so it has been a while, but I do remember, in the early days,
thinking things like, Im not this crazy why am I acting
this crazy? This isnt who I am! and being really frustrated
with the fact that I felt like I wasnt being my best self I was
doing things that were not very rational.
In a way, it was comforting because I could better understand
what happens when it comes to addiction why people do
What stood out is how

similar the processes
seem to be in the
brain, whether you are
addicted to a substance
or addicted to romance.

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things that are destructive and seemingly irrational

when they are under the influence of addiction in
its other forms.
It is nice to have that window into my experience
with love and romance.
But what I really appreciated was the discussion of
the fMRI differences between people who had been
in love for a very long time versus newly infatuated.
What I really appreciated was

the discussion of the fMRI
differences between people who
had been in love for a very long
time versus newly infatuated.
That also mirrored my experience with my husband the reward feels the same, the desire to approach
feels the same, but there is an incredible calm and sense of safety that goes along with it.
That description of an ideal long-term love really resonates with me.
How the Addiction of Romantic Love Impacts Rejection

Dr. Buczynski: Ron, lets stay with this idea of addiction just a little bit longer. If we see romantic love as
a type of addiction, does that help us in any way to better understand rejection? Or, does it help us recover
from rejection any better?
Dr. Siegel: I think very much so.

One of the things that tends to keep us trapped in our addiction to romantic love, including the feeling
of unrequited longing that can interfere with living life
for quite some time after a relationship goes sour, is the
One of the things that tends
cultural support for romantic love as the highest possible
to keep us trapped in our
ideal, as opposed to seeing it as an addictive process.
addiction is cultural support

for romantic love as the
highest possible ideal.
In my work as a psychotherapist, so often when people are

struggling with this, I am working to try to deconstruct the
whole mystique of romantic love for them so that they can
see it for what it actually is.
So, what is that exactly?

The plus sides of romantic love are obvious it feels really nice, and it can make us act charitably,
generously, and compassionately toward another. It can
bind us together so that we can begin living a life together.
The plus sides of
It certainly has its upsides.
But the downsides, particularly if a relationship has broken
up tend to keep us stuck in the paralysis and pain of rejection.
When the relationship is going on, it gives us this exaggerated

fear of loss: I wouldnt be able to live without you.
romantic love are obvious

but the downsides keep
us stuck in the paralysis
and pain of rejection.
It leads to possessiveness all of the ways in which people dont let their partners change, or let their
partner express themselves fully, for fear that the state of mutual romantic love will be disrupted.
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A lot of people arent able to communicate honestly in relationships. They are afraid of losing the high
losing this experience of romantic love.
A lof of people arent able

to communicate honestly
in relationships. They are
afraid of losing this high
losing this experience of
romantic love.
So it can be very helpful to look at it as a biological drive

system to see how it had an evolutionary purpose, but also
to see that it may not be optimal for our well-being now, or
it can get in the way of our well-being. That gives us much
more freedom of choice.
What Helen Fisher didnt go into, but is really very interesting,
is exactly how this drive manifests psychologically in humans,
which I suspect is somewhat different than in other animals.
For us, when we are under the spell of romantic love, there is a
tremendous amount of projection we see the other as the idealized
prince or princess that we have always wanted and that will
complete us and will somehow compensate for all of our feelings of
inadequacy or incompleteness.
Romantic love also

involves trying
to work through
our own feelings
of deficiency or
incompleteness.
A lot of romantic love involves trying to work through our own

feelings of deficiency or incompleteness, and when we can see
that process for what it is to see it both as a drive as well as a
psychological process to try to heal these past kinds of hurts then
it can free us to see it more objectively, and that helps us to get less caught up in it.
How Romantic Love Is a Basic Drive

Dr. Buczynski: Kelly, by recognizing the brains reward system when it is in love, Helen is suggesting
that romantic love, not just sex and mating, is a basic drive.
Do you agree with this? What are your thoughts on that?
Dr. McGonigal: I do agree. I am not an expert in this area, but certainly through the description that Helen
offered about how the brain operates under romantic love, I definitely recognize it as a manifestation of
other drives we are aware of, such as the drive to approach and
consume food.
It is interesting to think
about how a drive relates
to our actual needs
across the lifespan.
It is interesting to think about how a drive relates to our actual

needs across the lifespan.
Biologically, it definitely seems as though the desire for

romantic love, when it is triggered by a potential mate and
maybe a particular point in your own physical maturation and development, will definitely manifest as a
drive that propels motivation and cognition and shapes our experience of life in the same way that other
drives can.
But that is different than saying that romantic love is a drive that needs to be met in order to be psychologically
healthy or fulfilled.
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That is a real tension that many people experience

they have had across their lifespan times when they
were in contact with this romantic love drive, and
yet, at other times, that drive, as a basic need, may
not have been fulfilled due to grief, loss, not finding
the right partner, or being divorced.
It is interesting to think about other ways that this
reward system in social relationships can be used and
met.
People have times when

they were in contact with this
romantic love drive, and yet,
at other times, that drive may
not have been fulfilled due to
grief, loss, not finding the right
partner, or being divorced.
I have seen some research looking at the brain as it is affected by becoming a parent, and it seems to be
very similar.
When a mother becomes a

biological parent, that is very
much like being in love: you
are obsessed with your infant.
We know that when a mother becomes a biological

parent, the reward system refines itself to be extremely
reactive to her own infant. The amygdala and the
general anxiety and alarm system of the brain also tend
to be structurally strengthened.
You have this experience that is very much like being

in love: you are obsessed with your infant you have heightened vigilance, concern, and care.
It is clear that this drive in the system may change its focus and direction depending on the different points
of your life.
I wish I could ask Helen what she thinks about how this need can be met for people who are not in
romantic relationships.
Dr. Buczynski: Right.
Sex Drive, Infatuation, and Attachment

Ron, lets look at Helens idea about the three schemes for mating and reproduction: sex drive, infatuation,
and attachment.
Often people feel

there is something
wrong with them for
whatever feelings they
happen to be having
around romantic love.
What are your thoughts does that, in your mind, help us

understand romantic love any better?
Dr. Siegel: I think it does very much, in ways that both Kelly
has been talking about and I have mentioned before. So often
people feel that there is something wrong with them for having
the feelings they happen to have around romantic love.
So often people feel uncomfortable that they are feeling too much
or too little romantic love in a given situation, or that they are
feeling feelings toward people that they shouldnt, and this becomes very problematic.
If we see these drive systems as objective phenomena, then they become much less painful.
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25
I am reminded of a study that was done by the Kinsey Institute,

the heirs to Kinseys original sex research. They did a very
large study with people who self-identified as being bisexual.
If we see these drive

systems as objective
phenomena, it becomes
much less painful.
They asked them about who they had romantic longings for
and who they had actual romantic relationships with, who
they had sexual longings for and who they had actual sexual
relationships with, and who they had lifetime partnerships with and who they had short partnerships with.
They found that there was a great deal of inconsistency, even about which gender people chose for each
of those six different categories.
There might be somebody who has romantic fantasies about one gender but actual romantic relationships
with another; there would be people who had actual sexual relationships with one gender but romantic
fantasies about another; there were people who are in happy
life partnerships with one person, even though that wasnt
To see these as three drive
the person they had a lot of sexual and romantic fantasies
systems frees us up to
about.
be honest with ourselves

about what we feel toward
all the people in our lives.
some kind of stereotype.
So to see these three drive systems then frees us up to be

honest with ourselves about what we do feel toward all the
different people in our lives.
The answer is often surprising because it often doesnt fit
Again, I draw on my work as a clinician. I have seen so many people who felt so badly about either not
feeling the kind of love they felt they should feel toward a
partner, or who are tortured by the feeling of: How come Im
Seeing these feelings
still pining for somebody who I lost so long ago?
I am often reminded of how these feelings are culturally
embedded in the nineteenth century, you see all of these
Victorian novels that say, If the gallant gentleman or knight
wasnt still pining after his beloved decades after parting, he
must not have loved truly, versus, Youre not over her yet?
Its been a week! Whats wrong with you?
as drives helps free us

from being in bondage
to various expectations
about what we are
supposed to be feeling.
Seeing these feelings as drives helps to free us from being in bondage to various expectations about what
we are supposed to be feeling.
Thoughts on Sexual Desire, Sex, Touch, and Touch-Deprivation

Dr. Buczynski: Kelly, lets talk about sexual desire a little bit. Helen talked about how one of the best
ways to increase sexual desire is to have sex.
First, I would like to know your thoughts on that, but in addition to that, not everyone is in a sexual
relationship and that leaves me thinking about the whole broadening idea of touch and touch deprivation.
www.nicabm.com
When you rehearse a

behavior, it primes the
brain to look for and
be more responsive
to that opportunity.
26
What do we know about all this, and what are your thoughts?
Dr. McGonigal: I am not an expert on increasing someones sex
drive, but it definitely is consistent with everything I know about:
when you rehearse a behavior, it primes the brain to look for and
be more responsive to that opportunity. That is also part of the
process of addiction.
So if there is an experience you want to have, giving yourself that

experience, even if it feels like you are faking it a little bit, makes it much more likely that you will be in
that spontaneous state later on.
That is truly consistent with what I know about emotion regulation and the process of addiction.
But I am a little more interested in this topic of touch deprivation.
In one of my side roles, I work as a yoga teacher and a yoga teacher trainer. What has been most striking
to me over the years is how many people come to a yoga
class because they are hoping to be touched.
What has been most
There is a moment at the end of the class where a yoga

teacher might put a blanket over you in Shavasana,
or might give you a temple massage. Or there may be
physical adjustments in the class where you get hands
on your back in forward folds.
striking to me over the years

is how many people come to
a yoga class because they
are hoping to be touched.
I kept hearing over and over again that people were coming to class because it was the only place they
were being touched. It is not affectionate touch and certainly not sexual touch it is just touch.
There can be such

a psychological
consequence of being
touch-deprived.
I have heard from people who work in places like prisons that
sometimes you are not even allowed to touch other people, and
there can be such a psychological consequence of being touchdeprived.
Helen talked about this the importance of hugs and touch for
having healthy levels of oxytocin and other neurochemicals
and hormones that support resilience and well-being. This is something we need to take seriously as a
fundamental need.
Its easy for us to talk about needing sex, but we dont always talk about the fact that we need to be touched.
People should give themselves permission, for example,
to get a massage as a part of fundamental self-care.
If there are not people in your life who are providing

that, then you can look for other ways of creating the
experience of touch through pets and animals be
willing to offer touch to others in your life.
Its easy for us to talk about

needing sex, but we dont
always talk about the fact
that we need to be touched.

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27
Just doing the movement of yoga may stimulate some of the same body processes as receiving a massage
or having affectionate touch.
Touch is a basic need we should think about a little bit more.
Dr. Buczynski: Thanks. That is all the time we have for tonight.
Next week, we will be talking with Dr. Daniel Siegel. Well be looking at the teenage brain and the brain
shift in teenage years that helps prepare us for adulthood and how the adolescent brain grows up and
sometimes not growing up as quickly as we would like it to.
So we will be focusing on that next week.
There is a lot of important information there, and I am looking forward to seeing everyone again and being
with the two of you for our TalkBack at the end.
Thanks a lot everyone. We will see you next week. Take care.

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28
About The Speaker:

Helen Fisher, PhD, is a biological anthropologist, a Research Professor, and
a member of the Center for Human Evolution Studies in the Department
of Anthropology at Rutgers University, as well as Chief Scientific Advisor
to the Internet dating site, Chemistry.com, a division of Match.com. She
has conducted extensive research and written five books on the evolution
and future of human sex, love, marriage, gender differences in the brain
and how your personality type shapes who you are and who you love.
Dr. Fishers most recent book, Why Him? Why Her?: Finding Real Love
by Understanding Your Personality Type, goes beyond theory to show
that the complex nature of romance isnt so complicated once you truly
understand yourself and others.
Featured Book by Speaker: Helen Fisher, PhD
Why Him? Why Her?: How to Find

and Keep Lasting Love
Click HERE
to Purchase Now!
Find out more about this and related programs at:

www.nicabm.com
www.nicabm.com
About The TalkBack Speakers:
Since 1989, Ruth has combined her commitment to mind/body

medicine with a savvy business model. As president of The National
Institute for the Clinical Application for Behavioral Medicine, shes been
a leader in bringing innovative training and professional development
programs to thousands of health and mental health care practitioners
throughout the world.
Ruth has successfully sponsored distance-learning programs,
teleseminars, and annual conferences for over 20 years. Now shes
expanded into the cloud, where shes developed intelligent and
thoughtfully researched webinars that continue to grow exponentially.
Ronald D. Siegel, PsyD is an Assistant Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, where he has taught for over 20 years.
He is a long time student of mindfulness meditation and serves on
the Board of Directors and faculty of the Institute for Meditation and
Psychotherapy.
Dr. Siegel teaches nationally about mindfulness and psychotherapy
and mind/body treatment, while maintaining a private clinical practice in Lincoln, Massachusetts. He is co-editor of Mindfulness and
Psychotherapy and co-author of Back Sense: A Revolutionary Approach
to Halting the Cycle of Chronic Back Pain.
Kelly McGonigal, PhD, is a health psychologist and lecturer at Stanford

University, and a leading expert in the new field of science-help. She
is passionate about translating cutting-edge research from psychology,
neuroscience, and medicine into practical strategies for health,
happiness, and personal success.
Her most recent book, The Willpower Instinct: How Self-Control Works,
Why It Matters, and What You Can Do to Get More of It, explores the
latest research on motivation, temptation, and procrastination, as well
as what it takes to transform habits, persevere at challenges, and make
a successful change.

www.nicabm.com
29

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The Brain in Love: The

A Webinar Session with

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

3 Different Brain Systems for Mating and Reproduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

The Genes of Pair-Bonding and Attachment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

Dr. Fisher: No but you know what? I have always been an

3 Different Brain Systems for Mating and Reproduction

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

romantic love and when it

And I thought to myself, Well, Im going to put people into

Putting the 3 Different Brain Systems Idea to the Test

When you are

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

We were able to capture, in

Dr. Fisher: The neutral was a person of the same age,

Dr. Fisher: The same gender as their sweetheart. And

think about the sex drive.

Dr. Fisher: And no surprises: I went into the machine

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

The Ventral Tegmental Area and Dopamine Production

And in fact when I saw that in the brain, it was quite a

You are canceling out

Love in the Ventral Pallidum

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

has been linked with

Dr. Buczynski: Okay. So how much can we make of knowing

Rejection and Addiction

But I learned, the most valuable thing to me was when we put

When rejected in love,

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

the sex drive.

But it was interesting; I was recently at a neuroscience

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

The Difference Between Young and Mature Romantic Love

Among those in love longterm, new activity is found

But to answer your other question, I have done a lot of

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

Dr. Buczynski: And I am imagining that it didnt matter a whole lot

How to Deal With Rejection

If you want to give up

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

Any kind of novelty

Antidepressants and the Serotonin-Dopamine System

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

The brain is built for talking

you begin to eat something, a combination of maybe

Dr. Buczynski: Lets talk about that because you kind

Dr. Buczynski: Yes, or they are not helped anymore by the

Dr. Fisher: Thats interesting.

Romantic love is linked

And also, you know, sex is an important part of

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine

The Brain in Love: The Neurobiology of Romance

of the twelve cranial

Dr. Buczynski: So just to be clear with everyone who is

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine