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Trotskyism No. 20
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The IBT/Spart family Interpenetrated peoples theory denies the rights of oppressed
nations to self-determination
Interpenetrated peoples?
Contents
Interpenetrated peoples with no right to self-determination? By Gerry
Downing...........p. 3
BT/LTT Fusion Document For Trotskyism! (Spring 1987) .........p. 12
Comment by Ian....p. 14
The Good Friday Agreement meant acceptance of the Loyalist veto on Irelands right to self-determination By Gerry Downing.........p. 16
Comment by Revolutionary programme (AG)............ p33
Comment by Ian 21/02/2016 ...........p. 35
So no room there for all the interpenetrated peoples nonsense about ethnic groups
who just could not stand the sight of each
other and frequently came to blows because they lacked that vital anti-sectarian
3
Marxism cannot be reconciled with nationalism, be it even of the most just, purest,
most refined and civilised brand. In place of
all forms of nationalism Marxism advances
internationalism. V.I. Lenin, Critical Of course we are all aware of Lenins last
Remarks on the National Question (1913). struggle against Stalin on this very ques-
First, what is the most important, the fundamental idea of our theses? The distinction
between oppressed and oppressor nations.
We emphasize this distinctionin diametric
contrast to the Second International and
bourgeois democracy. In the epoch of imperialism, it is particularly important for the
proletariat and the Communist International
to establish the concrete economic facts and
in the solution of all colonial and national
questions, to proceed not from abstract postulates but from concrete realities.
The characteristic feature of imperialism is
that the whole world, as we see, is now divided into a large number of oppressed nations
and an insignificant number of oppressor
nations, which command colossal wealth and
powerful armed forces. The overwhelming
majority of the worlds population, more
than a thousand million people, and very
probably 1,250 millionif we take the worlds
total population at 1,750 millionor about
4
thoughtfulness and a readiness to compromise a matter of necessity for us. The Georgian [Stalin] who is neglectful of this aspect
of the question, or who carelessly flings
about accusations of nationalistsocialism (whereas he himself is a real and
true nationalist-socialist, and even a vulgar
Great-Russian bully), violates, in substance,
the interests of proletarian class solidarity, for
nothing holds up the development and
strengthening of proletarian class solidarity
so much as national injustice; offended
nationals are not sensitive to anything so
much as to the feeling of equality and the
5
This is just garbage. What use is selfdetermination if it does not entail some
form of economic independence to oppose the penetration of imperialist finance
capital to super-exploit that nation? They
say,
In general our support for the right to selfdetermination is negative: intransigent opposition to every manifestation of national oppression as a means toward the unity of the
6
What is Loyalism?
Though not yet (!!) a nation, the Protestants
are certainly not a part of the Irish nation and
are distinct from the Scottish and English
nations. Presently their separate existence is
defined in large part as against the Irish Catholic nation and at the ideological level is expressed in religious terms. With their own
social and cultural fabric (epitomised in the
Orange Order) and history of opposition to
the Irish nationalist cause, they have therefore
acted as the loyalist allies of British ImperialismIn all likelihood, a definite resolution of
the exact character of the Ulster Protestant
community will be reached with the withdrawal of the British army and will depend on
the
circumas part of the
stances
surstruggle.
rounding this.
To
proclaim
T h i s
that there can
[possibility of a
be no capitalist
united Ireland]
united Ireland
is a matter of
is abjectly to
r e l a t i v e
capitulate
to
strength. Owthese fascistic
ing to the hiselements. It is
tory of the last
thirty years or
to
renounce
perhaps longer,
revolution in
owing to histo- Mustafa Barghouti:What happened 65 years ago in
general in the
ry since 1885, Deir Yassin was a horrible massacre which prepared the name of wanting
when Randolph ground for the ethnic cleansing of 70 percent of the
a pure one. And
Churchill Win- Palestinian people, The same ethnic cleansing is going
where does the
stons father on today but in a different way. In 1948 they used direct
L o y a l i s t
first raised the massacres, now they use airstrikes in Gaza and shoot
young
Palestinians
in
the
West
Bank.
superior ecocry of Ulster will
nomic strength
fight and Ulster
will be right in the past ninety years the come from? Discrimination is the obvious
Protestants of Northern Ireland have been answer. And some things are just plain
taught to think of themselves as a separate wrong like;
body, almost separate nationality within Ire- This insurrection (of 1798) against British
land, and have established now a longterm Imperialism, which was defeated in part by
domination of Northern Ireland, partly, be- development of the reactionary sectarian
cause of their superior economic strength, Orange Order and the mobilisation of the
partly because of the backing they have re- peasantry by Catholic priests, was the opporceived from the British Government, and tunity for the establishment of a modern
partly because they are, or up to now have nation of the whole island.
been, the more determined. For them,
Protestant domination is the answer to the Anyone with the most rudimentary
knowledge of Irish history can tell you
situation in Northern Ireland.
They are almost a nation, it seems, so selfdetermination is theirs. That they might be
a colonial people like the French colons
were who will either have to accept being
a minority nationality in a re-unified nation, a socialist republic for Marxists or a
democratic republic for nationalists.
Marxists say the democratic republic is an
illusion but we cannot either rule it out or
oppose it politically if it comes into being
8
ically the Catholic underlings of the aristocracy, Squireens and Buckeens, the lower middle class landlords, like Daniel
OConnell, who later posed as the Great
Liberator. These were gathered in militias
like the North Corks, who flew the Orange standard, brutally pacified Ulster
(the Presbyterian Republicans), and were
credited with the invention of the pitchcap torture and half-hanging.
The Catholic Bishops naturally sided
with the British but the lower orders of
the clergy, like Fr. John Murphy in Wexford, who was pro-British before the uprising, led his parishioners with the call to
die like men defending themselves, rather than to fall with folded arms under
the enemys sword. He was horribly murdered by the redcoats, one of 20,000 who
were slaughtered in those two short autumnal weeks in north Country Wexford
in the reaction that was far worse than
revolutionary Frances entirely necessary
reign of terror (30,000 in six years).
As a result of its failure, the RCL (the Israel/Palestine Trotskyists) saw in the Arab
Uprising 1936-39 mainly a pogrom against
the Jews and remained on the sidelines of
history. It failed to assimilate the revolution9
conquest and evacuation of the Arab villages whose offices in Damascus were wrecked.
along this road (on March 2, 1948, British This pressure of the Arab masses was the
troops joined the Hagana to break up an reason the rulers of the Arab states went to
Arab block at Bab al Wad, then early in April war with Israel. Today this is even recogit failed to intervene when military actions nized by Zionist historians like Benny Moralong the road began, then on April 6 the ris:
British brought some supply trains into the
The massacre and the way it was trumpeted
city, etc.); had the British army not come to
in the Arab media added to the pressure on
the rescue of the Jewish settlements Dan and
the Arab states leaders to aid the embattled
Kfar Szold in Upper Galilee on the 9th of
Palestinians and hardened their resolve to
January; and last but not least, had not the
invade Palestine. The news had aroused
first truce which was imposed by the UN in
great public indignation which the leaders
June 1948 saved Jewish Jerusalem from starwere unable to ignore.[10]
vation and military collapse had not all this
Yossi
argues strongly that Israel immigrahappened the State of Israel could not have
tion
into
Israel should have been opposed,
come into being. [9]
He continues and points out to the antiimperialist mass pressure in the Arab
states:
But something went wrong with the plan in
its initial stage in most of the Arab countries:
demonstrations were directed mainly against
foreign companies and establishments, including the Soviet Union because of its support of partition, and the Communist Party,
11
collapse.
Appendix:
BT/LTT Fusion Document
The National Question and
Interpenetrated Peoples
Marxism cannot be reconciled with nationalism, be it even of the most just,
purest, most refined and civilised brand.
In place of all forms of nationalism Marxism advances internationalism.
V.I. Lenin, Critical Remarks on the IBT: The logic of capitulation to pettybourgeois nationalism led much of the left to
National Question (1913)
Marxism and nationalism are two funda- so-called Arab Revolution) against the Israementally counterposed world views. We lis in the Mid-East wars of 1948, 1967 and 1973.
uphold the principle of the equality of So IBT oppose the founding of the Israeli state
nations, and oppose any privileges for but were neutral in only way to prevent its founany nation.At the same time Marxists dation and continued existence, these wars.
reject all forms of nationalist ideology
and, in Lenins words, welcome every pressor people be equated with the whites
kind of assimilation of nations, except in South Africa or the French colons in
that founded on force and privilege.
Algeria; i.e., a privileged settler-caste/
The Leninist program on the national labor aristocracy dependent on the superquestion is primarily a negative one de- exploitation of indigenous labor to mainsigned to take the national question off tain a standard of living qualitatively highthe agenda and undercut the appeal of er than the oppressed population.
petty-bourgeois nationalists, in order to Both the Irish Protestants and the Hemore starkly pose the class question.
brew-speaking population of Israel are
In classic cases of national oppression class-differentiated peoples. Each has a
(e.g., Quebec), we champion the right of bourgeoisie, a petty bourgeoisie and a
self-determination, without necessarily working class. Unlike guilty middle-class
advocating its exercise. In the more com- moralists, Leninists do not simply enplex cases of two peoples interspersed, or dorse the nationalism of the oppressed
interpenetrated, throughout a single (or the petty-bourgeois political forgeographical territory (Cyprus, Northern mations which espouse it).
Ireland, Palestine/Israel), the abstract To do so simultaneously forecloses the
right of each to self-determination cannot possibility of exploiting the real class conbe realized equitably within the frame- tradictions in the ranks of the oppressor
work of capitalist property relations.
people and cements the hold of the naYet in none of these cases can the op- tionalists over the oppressed. The prole12
Notes
[1] J. V. Stalin, Marxism and the National Question,
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/
stalin/works/1913/03a.htm
[2] V.I. Lenin, On the national and colonial questions
(Report to the Second Congress of the Communist International, July 1920) http://www2.stetson.edu/
~psteeves/classes/lenincolonial.html
[3] Lenin, December 31, 1922, The Question of Nationalities or Autonomisation https://
www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/
dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm
[4] Ibid.
[5] The Sparts position on Ireland is the Theses on
Ireland, Spartacist no 24, Autumn 1977 http://
www.workersrepublic.org/Pages/Ireland/
Trotskyism/thesesonireland2.html.
[6] V. I. Lenin, The Revolutionary Proletariat and the
Right of Nations to Self-Determination, October 1915,
h t t p :// w ww .m ar x i st s .o rg / ar c h i v e/ l e n i n/
works/1915/oct/16.htm.
[7] Israels War of 1948 and the Degeneration of
the Fourth International, By Yossi Schwartz, Revolutionary Communist International Tendency
(RCIT),
May
2013,
http://
www.thecommunists.net/theory/israel-s-war-of1948/
[8] Ibid.
13
You said that the implications of the interpenetrated peoples position is pro-imperialist
and appeasement of loyalism. You are of
course free to make that argument but if a
person serious about the political method of
revolutionary Marxism did so then they would
have to respond to the IBT quote I provided
I am not asking you to agree with the interand explain how the clear anti-imperialism
penetrated peoples position and its political
and anti-loyalism expressed there was conconclusions (although I
sistent with that supdo think that explains
posed implication.
situations like the north
Are you such a perof Ireland very well). All I
son? Doing so would
am asking is that you relook something like:
tract your claim that the
I have been alerted
IBT, and its supporters
to the following piece
like myself, are proby the IBT
imperialist appeaser of
Despite the clear
loyalism. Or if you want
anti-imperialist and
to continue with that abanti-loyalist position
surd characterisation then The good Friday agreement adopted the outlined there I still
you at least have the polit- Loyalist veto and abandoned Irelands
believe
right to self-determination.
ical honesty, and confiThe piece Alan
dence in your argument,
quoted is from the
to use the IBT quote I provided and then
1995
document,
An
End
to the Troubles, Irish
explain how despite this your assertion is still
Peace
Process:
true. Refusing to do this exposes you as a
political charlatan who has no interest in polit- The starting point for Marxists in dealing
ical clarity or substantive political debate.
with Ireland has to be unconditional opposition to British imperialist intervention. We are
I replied:
for the immediate, unconditional withdrawal
Of course I dont think that. And I dont
of British troops from Northern Ireland.
think I said it. My assertion was that appeaseMarxists stand for the military defence of the
ment of loyalism was the objective implicaIRA in conflicts with the British and NI state
tions of the theory. Ill review the conversaforces, and we oppose criminal prosecution
tion and I will apologise if I said or directly
and imprisonment of Republicans by the imimplies you or your comrades were appeasers
perialists and their allies. Moreover, the existof Loyalism.
ing order in Northern Ireland, with its marginAlan corrected me:
al privileges for Protestants and systematic
discrimination and repression of Catholics, is
16
This document relies on the previous Spartacist League/ICL 1977 Theses on Ireland but
is an independent IBT document which
Alan demands that I assess in its own right.
Whilst letting my original critique stand I
will therefore seek to prove that the interpenetrated peoples position is proimperialist and appeasement of loyalism
by referring to the political positions taken
in that document, and taking the whole
document, seek to demonstrate this by
showing that it is self-contradictory in several aspects, taking positions in some places
that are contradicted elsewhere.
I immediately acknowledge that the vast
majority of those in the whole Robertson
tradition, the ICL, the IG/LFI and the
IBT, are either unaware of and/or dont
accept that these are absolute contradictions. I will seek to prove that the Theses on
Ireland of 1977 accepted the Loyalist veto
over Irelands right to self-determination
eleven years before Gerry Adams did in
1988 and the Irish peace process document
backs it up seven years after it was signed.
Both documents are therefore a defence of
this peace process, even if this is not openly
acknowledged.
I acknowledge that the ICL did oppose
the actual Peace Process in 1988 but their
opposition was so conditional as to be almost worthless. In particular the Irish Peace
Process document accepts the bone fides of
Imperialism in the Peace Process discussions by the use of a few quotes from British imperialist politicians. The possibility
And,
To the Tories, the
harmonization of an allIreland market is (they no
doubt hope) a means of gradually divesting themselves of
an embarrassing and expensive problem handed down to
them by previous generations
of their class.
The colossal power of the working class: Ulster Volunteer Force - Wikipedia: It would attack the Republic again
in May 1974, during the two-week Ulster Workers' Council
strike. This was a general strike in protest against the Sunningdale Agreement, which meant sharing political power
with Irish nationalists and the Republic having more involvement in Northern Ireland. Along with the UDA, it
helped to enforce the strike by blocking roads, intimidating
workers, and shutting any businesses that opened.
This pleads the case of Loyalism and repeats the line of Militant on that same
1974 strike. It certainly was not an an
entirely anti-British strike no more than
the Curragh Mutiny of 1914 [3] was an
entirely anti-British mutiny. It was simply
a matter of the British state and reactionary imperialist Britain disciplining liberal
18
The skilled Protestant workers, the institutionalised aristocracy of labour who have
traditionally looked to Apartheid South Africa, to Zionist Israel and to the US deep
South Jim Crow for inspiration, despised
the poor papist nationalist/Catholic workers and were always determined to form a
cross-class alliance to deny them employment, housing, welfare and life itself whenever croppy became too uppity. But Militant pandered to them thus: The whole
basis of life in modern society depends on
the working class. Nothing moved in
Northern Ireland without the permission of
the working class. Even bourgeois commentators, hostile to the aim of the strike were
forced to comment on the power and ingenuity displayed by the working class. Thus
the Times correspondent commented on
the situation in the Protestant Sandy Row
And
While opposing the imperialist presence,
Marxists must also oppose the reunication
of Ireland against the wishes of the
Protestants.
and fly Palestinian flags to indicate support for the oppressed Palestinians. The
Rangers and other pro-Loyalists song is
the Billy Boys: Were up to our knees in
Fenian blood, Surrender or youll die, For we
are The Brigton Derry Boys. Rangers and
other Loyalist fans fly the Zionist flag to
indicate support for Israels oppression
of the Palestinians.
Sectarian Killings
nationalists in defence
of this for this. This is
the essence of Loyalist
culture:
This totally contradicts the opening sentence of this section: The starting point
for Marxists in dealing with Ireland has to
be unconditional opposition to British
imperialist intervention. If the Irish nationalists succeed in reuniting Ireland,
even under capitalism, that would be a
defeat for British Imperialism. It is not a
question simply of economics, national
defence or wishing to avoid a bloodbath.
The British ruling class are NOT neutral,
their undercover MI5 agents constantly
collaborated with Loyalist death squads in
assassinating not only IRA men and prominent professional opponents like Pat Finucane in 1989, and Rosemary Nelson in
1999, but also random Catholics to spread
terror. They infiltrated the Belfast IRA in
particular so as to ensure they were either
ambushed or they deliberately placed
bombs or made sure they exploded prematurely or warnings were suppressed in
27
I have tried to explain to him that differences between the nationalism of the
oppressor and that of the oppressed.
Lenin expanded it in great detail and the
quote the IBT put forward in their fusion
with the LTT makes no acknowledgement of this. [13] Supporting existing
oppression of the Irish nationalists (NOT
Catholics) by Loyalist (NOT Protestants)
on the grounds that if you do so the oppression might be reversed completely
dismisses the fight against imperialism
and the central position this must occupy
in the programme of all serious revolutionaries. In Israel it is Zionism repressing the Palestinians, a fear that imperialisms agents might themselves be oppressed at a later date is a defence of current Imperialist oppression. That is the
essence of the argument, interpenetrated
peoples is an alternative explanation for
human oppression that blames human
nature and not the property relations of
capitalism and modern imperialism.
Thats the significance of the Lenin
Stalin debate, the Great Russian chauvinism of Stalin, the failure of Robertson to
call for the defeat of the British Expeditionary force to the south Atlantic in
1982, by far the most telling example of
the Sparts pro imperialism.
the question of how to find the bond between proletarian communist internationalism and the national development of wide
layers of the peasant masse with their aspirations for a national life, for their own national culture, for their own national state. [14]
Pro-Imperialist Terminology
Finally on the language used in the documents. The offensive terminology like
Protestant and Catholic and the British
Isles that the documents use is an inadvertent expression of contempt for Irelands right to self-determination. Obviously the comrades are unaware that Brit-
sive to Irish sensibilities Pocock suggested a neutral geographical term for the
collection of islands located off the
northwest coast of continental Europe
which included Britain and Ireland: the
Atlantic archipelago Lambert, Peter;
Phillipp Schofield (2004). Making History: An Introduction to the History and
Practices of a Discipline. New York:
Routledge, p. 217.
..the term is increasingly unacceptable
to Irish historians in particular, for whom
the Irish Sea is or ought to be a separating rather than a linking element. Sensitive to such susceptibilities, proponents
of the idea of a genuine British history, a
theme which has come to the fore during
the last couple of decades, are plumping
for a more neutral term to label the scattered islands peripheral to the two major
ones of Great Britain and Ireland.
Roots, Ivan (1997).
The British Isles, A History of Four Nations,
Second edition, Cambridge University
Press, July 2006, Preface, Hugh Kearney.
The title of this book is The British
Isles, not Britain, in order to emphasise
the multi-ethnic character of our intertwined histories. Almost inevitably many
within the Irish Republic find it objectionable. As Seamus Heaney put it when
he objected to being included in an anthology of British Poetry:
Dont be surprised If I demur, for, be advised/ My passports green./ No glass of
ours was ever raised/ To toast the Queen.
(Open Letter, Field day Pamphlet no.2
1983)
The A to Z of Britain and Ireland by Trevor Montague although it is traditional to refer to the Republic of Ireland and
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
32
Notes
34
do undoubtedly possess the material forces to make an overturn of their respective oppressor states
unlikely without their
capitulation, which is
most likely to happen
materially if it is first
ideological.
The real problem with
the interpenetrated
peoples position here
is that it dignifies the oppressor with the
same legitimacy as the oppressed in national terms. It is the Middle East where
this is clearest, as the self-determination
of Israel Jews would not be possible without denying the right to return of Palestinian refugees. 20% of the population of
Israel proper are so-called Israeli Arabs: in
the Naqba of 1947-9 more than two
thirds of the Arab population were violently expelled, Simple arithmetic tells you
if that were reversed, there would be an
Arab majority in Israel proper of more
than 60%. Not to mention that the separation between Israel proper and the West
Bank/Gaza is utterly artificial. We are
talking about a clearly, overwhelming maComment by Ian 21/02/2016 jority Arab population if basic democratic
In my view Ireland and Israel/Palestine
norms were observed.
are separate but related problems, with
Not only that, but Israel does not claim
distinct and separate elements to them,
to be a nation-state. It claims to be the
but there is also some commonality. The state of the Jews worldwide. And in bourfervent pro-Zionism of many loyalist big- geois terms, there is a certain reality to
ots speaks to the related nature of the two this, as highly influential sections of the
questions.
bourgeoisie in the US and to a slightly
It is hardly likely that either question can lesser extent Western Europe do regard
be resolved without in some sense the
Israel as their territorial asset. The Spart
consent of the oppressor groups inposition dignifies this thoroughly antivolved. Israeli Jews and Ulster Protestants democratic situation as being a conflict of
35