186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won strange maps http://strangemaps.wordpress.

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strange maps
October 17, 2007
186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won

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One of the mainstays of speculative history (together with What if the South had won the US Civil War?) is: What would the world have looked like if the Nazis had won the Second World War? And yet Ive never seen a map showing what the Nazis
post-war plans (for Europe of for the world) were, neither from their own files or reconstructed by war historians.

Which is very strange, considering that the Second World War is one of the most studied conflicts in world history. Maybe thats because the Nazis didnt have any concrete plans for after their victory not because they didnt believe in it themselves,
but because of the chaotic nature of Nazi governance. The institutional overlap, competition and resulting chaos in the Third Reich is a well-established historical fact that contradicts the traditional notion of Germans as careful and thorough planners and
which may well have prevented a German victory.

How the world would have looked like if such a victory had occurred, is a question that has been answered often in fiction, for example in the (passable) Robert Harris novel Fatherland and the (brilliant) Philip K. Dick book The Man in the High
Castle. Harris book includes a map, of a 1960s Europe dominated by Germany. This Nazi state, greatly expanded towards the East, doesnt include Alsace-Lorraine. This rather puts a dent in the maps credibility: its quite unthinkable that a victorious
Nazi state would not annex these territories on the Rhines left bank, for so long disputed between France and Germany. Dicks book, which focuses on the Japan-dominated West Coast of the (former) USA, sadly isnt illustrated with a map. Not my copy
at least.

This map does give what seems to be a well-considered vision of a Europe-wide Nazi state as it might have emerged after a German victory. German supremacy is concealed by the construct of Neuropa (New Europe), a sort of evil twin of the
European Union in this universe.

Linchpin of Neuropa is the Greater German Empire (Grossdeutsches Reich), consisting of Germany in its 1937 borders, plus Alsace-Lorraine (from France), the entire Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, the Belgian German-speaking area of
Eupen-Malmdy (from Belgium), all of Austria (Ostmark in Nazi parlance), a large part of present-day Slovenia, the Sudeten areas of former Czechoslovakia, and large parts of pre-war Poland.
Some areas are not part of the Reich, but nonetheless under direct Protectorate: Bohemia-Moravia and the Polish General-Gouvernement.
So far, nothing deviates from the situation as it was at the height of Nazi power in Europe. Different are two Reich exclaves in the East, implying Germany won the war with Soviet Russia: Gotenland (on the Krim peninsula) and St Petersburg.

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Presumably outside the Reich in a technical sense, but still administered civilly by the NSDAP (Hitlers National Socialist party) are large areas in the East: Estonia and Latvia, both enlarged by annexing parts of Russia, Lithuania, and Belarus.
There are also three autonomous NSDAP areas in the west: the Netherlands, Flanders and Wallonia (those two successor-states to Belgium also gaining territory, in this case to the detriment of France).
So far the areas under direct German control (either under the Reich or under the Party). Next in the map legend are other European states, major allies of the Nazis and instigators of the New European Union: Greater Finland (almost doubling in size
by grabbing parts of Norway and Russia) and the Italian Social Republic, covering just the northern half of Italy but gaining the Savoy and Nice areas of France and the environs of Istria from Slovenia.
This is where the maps colour scheme gets a bit confusing: the states signing up to the European Declaration in 1946 and later are indicated in one of several shades of brown and green used in the legend. To the best of my visual abilities, the 1946 ones
are: Norway, Denmark, France, Slovakia, (Greater) Hungary, (Greater) Croatia, (Greater) Romania and (Greater) Bulgaria those last four Balkan states enlarged at the expense their neighbours (sometimes including each other).
A second wave of member states signing the European Declaration in 1951 are (again, as far as I can see): Spain (also holding on to its possessions in Morocco), (Little) Serbia, Greece (losing part of Macedonia to Bulgaria and also some territory to
Albania, but retaining an enclave at the Turkish border) and Ukraine, which, having lost some land to Romania and the General-Gouvernement, is extended eastward all the way to Saratov.
Later in the 1950s, Albania (enlarged also with a good part of Kosovo) joins the European Declaration.
A third wave of Neuropa members joins in the 1960s: Portugal, Montenegro, and several formerly Soviet areas in or near the Caucasus: Kuban, Kalmykia, Georgia (enlarged with North Ossetia), Armenia and Azerbaijan.
In the 1970s, three new states join: Dagestan in the Caucasus, and Udmurtia and Volga-Tatarstan further north.
Incorporated in Neuropa, but without voting rights are the areas of Moskova and an area in the Caucasus, somewhat conforming to where Chechnya is now (maybe corresponding with the former, larger Soviet autonomous area of
Chechnya-Ingushetia).

This map was sent to me by Bruno De Cordier and is taken here from the Finnish site valtakunta.eu, dedicated to illustrating the parallel universe in which the Nazis have won the war.

Unfortunately mainly in Finnish, its impossible (for a non-Finnophone like me, anyway) to determine which is the POD (point of divergence) of this timeline: what was the turning point allowing the Nazis to win the war?

40 Comments
1. Colin McEvedys Penguin Atlas of Recent History shows German civil administrative divisions during WW2. They are similar to what is seen on this map. Unfortunately, I do not have it handy.

Comment by Leo Petr October 17, 2007 @

2. The site does have a summary in English, which states that there is no specific POD, but imagines a world where, in short, Hitler and his government were smarter and steadier.

Comment by Minivet October 17, 2007 @

3. Actually, several maps exist. The Nazis left extensive plans for the postwar-period, right down to domestic architecture, so alternate historians have found it rather easy to map them. An excellent portrayal, map included, is Robert Harriss
Fatherland. If you want something a little more scholarly, check out the forum at alternatehistory.com. We have an entire thread devoted to Nazi victory maps.

As for the map itself, its a pretty good interpretation, though I doubt the Nazis would allow as many states in Eastern Europe to be independent.

Comment by Brad October 17, 2007 @

4.

Presumably there was a negotiated peace in WWII Britain is shaded grey, which isnt in the key and so would seem to be independent. Same for South Italy and the remnants of the USSR (SSSR). Id guess that the German offensives in Russia in
1941 and 1942 were much more successful (capturing Moscow and Stalingrad Zarizyn on this map), but the Nazis didnt have the resources to finish the job, and got bogged down. The Western Allies land in Italy, Mussolini is deposed (and
reinstated by the Nazis in the Italian Social Republic, as per our timeline), but the Germans hold them north of Rome, and D-Day is a failure (or perhaps never happened). So after that, maybe after a year or so of stalemate, the Allies give up trying
to win back Europe, and recognise the German changes to the map of Europe

Comment by Brett Holman October 17, 2007 @

5. I thought Hitler had planned to turn Moscow into a lake. Maybe, this was his ideao only by the end of WW2, when Soviet troops were appraching Berlin.

Comment by Stefan October 17, 2007 @

6. There are some fairly obvious errors in this map which make me doubt the research of whoever put it together.
Notably, Germany annexed Czechia before the war began, and Libya was a colonial possession of Italy from 1911. For that matter, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco would have been administered either directly by the Germans, or through their Vichy
puppets.

Comment by Loki October 17, 2007 @

7. @Loki: I dont think that whoever created the map was interested in the (African) colonies. The only exception show is the northern coast of Morocco, but keep in mind that even today Ceuta and Melilla are part of the Spanish kingdom: here there
is just an enlargement of the enclaves to get a continuous strip of land.
Its stranger that the author chose to left Italy divided and Albania (annexed in 1939) independent, but with Dodecanesus given to Northern Italy.

Comment by .mau. October 17, 2007 @

8. @Loki: I dont think that whoever created the map was interested in the (African) colonies. The only exception show is the northern coast of Morocco, but keep in mind that even today Ceuta and Melilla are part of the Spanish kingdom: here there
is just an enlargement of the enclaves to get a continuous strip of land.
Its stranger that the author chose to left Italy divided and Albania (annexed in 1939) independent, but with Dodecanesus given to Northern Italy.

Comment by .mau. October 17, 2007 @

9.

Theres a book called Virtual History (I cant remember the title exactly, but its author is Nigel Townsend). Its really good. The author was my teacher at college in Spain and recommended us the book. The hipotetic situation if nazis would have
won the II war isnt the one. Theres other really interesting stories

Comment by Mirarrosa October 17, 2007 @

10.

Interesting map. However, I dont think the idea of a divided Italy is very plausible, and I dont understand why Finland has gained so much on Norway. The Norwegians were a favorite people of the Nazis, who saw them as a kind of
proto-germannic people. Also, Norway was captured fairly early in the war.Because of this, I would not think a victorious Nazi-germany would allow Finland to capture Norwegian territory.

I also cannot quite believe that Sweden has managed to stay neutral in this scenario.Pressed by Nazi states from both sides, how could they?

Comment by sungame October 17, 2007 @

11.

i like the idea..it means gerry kick an american but

Comment by alaslangit October 17, 2007 @

12. A novel called Making History by Stephen Fry covers the hypothetical question. He includes the effect of a Nazi win has over the USA too.

Comment by James October 17, 2007 @

13.

Its not hard to understand most of these choices.

As I already pointed out, Italy being partitioned points to a stalemate and negotiated peace after 1944. The Italian Social Republic
really existed, and was created after the Allied invasion of Italy, so obviously that also happened in this timeline. Italys African colonies had already been captured by the Allies by that time, so thats why it doesnt have those any more. The
Dodecanese Islands were not liberated until the end of the war, so thats why they are still Italian here. Albania, I dont know about that one. And I agree that Sweden (and Switzerland, not so much Ireland, also marked in white) would have a hard
time keeping out of the New Order altogether.

As for Finland, sure the Germans like their fellow Nordics, but presumably they liked countries who actually fought on their side more than they liked countries who fought against them! But since its from a Finnish website, a bit of wishful thinking
might come into it too.

@9: I think the author was Niall Ferguson?

Comment by Brett Holman October 17, 2007 @

14.

Ireland is in white there, but I wonder would we the Irish have joined an alternate European Union. I think we would have given the right circumstances.

Comment by Donncha October 17, 2007 @

15. [] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won []

Pingback by completesq Blog Archive Late breaking news October 17, 2007 @

16. [] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won []

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186 - Europe, If the Nazis Had Won strange maps http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/186-europe-if-the-nazis-had-won/

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17. @Brett: in 1944 Dodecanese Islands (like Sd-Tirol, which is the part of Italy with German-speaking people) were under direct Germany domain, however; so it made sense that they remained in Great Germany after the end of the War.

Comment by .mau. October 17, 2007 @

18.

Yes, the Germans did control them at the end of our WWII, because they moved in when the Italians collapsed. But they are the same colour as the Italian Social Republic on this map so I assume Germany returned them to Mussolini at some point
(in the alternate history!)

Ooh, more maps linked from here.

Comment by Brett Holman October 17, 2007 @

19. [] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won []

Pingback by centerwinks Blog Archive Latest news October 17, 2007 @

20. Thank you for your interest in my maps! Ill try to answer quickly to few of your questions.

History of Albania during the WWII is a murky one. It regained independence in 1943, with a nationalist goverement who got backing from Berlin, but they intended to declare neutrality as soon as possible - and still hold on areas annexed to
Albania during Italian rule, mainly Kosovo. Albania also tried to hold on a puppet state of Principality of Pindos, established in 1941 to mountainous Greek areas by aromanian minority.

Norwegians were not very well liked by German occupation goverment. Quisling was a burden; they never wanted him to grab power in Norway, because it alienated norwegian people from Germany. Quisling dreamed of a Greater Norway, with
Kola peninsula added, but he was quickly rebuffed from Berlin. in 1942, Hitler offered all kinds of amenities to Finland, because of its importance in the northern front. He pledged Finland the right to annex Eastern Karelia and Kola peninsula, and
even more, just to keep the Finnish army fighting. Northern Norway (Ruija) is inhabited by finnish-speaking people, and the inclusion of these areas to Greater Finland was planned in Helsinki.

Comment by Sampsa Rydman October 17, 2007 @

21. More my maps here:

http://www.valtakunta.eu/historia/rauha1943.html

Greater Germany, 1984:

http://www.valtakunta.eu/politiikka/newgermany.jpg

Comment by Sampsa Rydman October 17, 2007 @

22. I love the maps on your site, Sampsa. Id nitpick over the Nazis failure to annex Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium, as well as large parts of western Ukraine, but that aside, great work. You should translate the text into English, Id love to read
it (my Finnish begins with Paiva! and ends with Kiitos, sadly).

Comment by Paul October 17, 2007 @

23. Just wanted to add my compliments for the excellent work on the website & maps! I agree with Paul, please translate the rest if you can!

Comment by tps October 17, 2007 @

24. [] another Strange Map for youthis one an imagining of what Europe would have looked like if Germany had won the []

Pingback by Historical Methods Blog Archive If The War Had Turned Out Differently October 17, 2007 @

25. [] another Strange Map for youthis one an imagining of what Europe would have looked like if Germany had won the []

Pingback by Nationalism in Eastern Europe Blog Archive If The War Had Turned Out Differently October 17, 2007 @

26. [] another Strange Map for youthis one an imagining of what Europe would have looked like if Germany had won the []

Pingback by East European Nationalism and Communism Blog Archive If The War Had Turned Out Differently October 17, 2007 @

27.

Even if the Nazis had won the circle would have in such a way as to be at a point it presently is,what happed if China and Russia became communist and completely red at that.arnt these counties now pursueing capitalism in its worse form than
others,any thing unnatural would give way to the natural thing eventually.

Comment by krsnakhandelwal October 17, 2007 @

28. [] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won []

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29. About Alsace (I live there) : Germans DID annex Alsace-Lorraine as soon as France was defeated. Young men for m Alsace-Lorraine were forced to fight in the Wehrmacht So Harris book is false.

BTW, I love this site.

Comment by Krysztof von Murphy October 17, 2007 @

30. [] 186 - <b>Europe</b>, If the Nazis Had Won []

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31. there is an ongoing (inofficial?) translation project at http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263106

Comment by Vaang October 18, 2007 @

32. Requires no Manhattan Project at minimum - since the division of Italy indicates that the US is in the war, Germany must 1. crush the USSR (unlikely) 2. successfully resist a US landing on the continent (unlikely even if the USSR is out of the fight,
impossible otherwise) and 3. avoid getting nuked into rubble.

Nice map, but I think Germanics such as the Dutch are likely to be incorporated directly into the Reich - unless Hitler dies soon after wars end and his successor has rather different ideas re who qualifies as German (along with rather different
ideas re the Slavs, which at the best would be a slave race in German-settled Ukraine, Poland - there would be no such thing as a Ukranian state.)

Bruce

Comment by B Munro October 18, 2007 @

33.

Well, yes, B Munro, the whole concept of Germany winning the war after invading the USSR seems rather unlikely.

But if you are willing to accept German victory as a theoretical experiment, the map seems rather plausible. However, you might be right about the racial issues concerning slavic countries like Ukraine and Poland.

On the other hand, the Nazi leaders were quite divided on racial ideology. Sure, they all played along with Hitlers ideas, but while the racial theories were ideologically motivated for some, they were just a tool for others. So if the least racist (if you
can actually write that about Nazis) factions seized power, presumably after Hitlers death, the map, once again, seems more plausible.

Comment by sungame October 18, 2007 @

34. I dont think its unreasonable to suggest that Italy be partitioned. After all, it was only unified less than a hundred years previously. And if the Lega Nord got their way, it would be divided so those filthy, lazy southerners stopped being such a
drain on the economy (their words, not mine).

Btw, Im reading the Robert Harris book at the moment and its a really good, plausible read. I dont think we should discount it because of one minor piece of cartography that is totally unrelated to the story.

Comment by jonmorris October 18, 2007 @

35. Im quite sure that the (unattributed) source of this map Joaqun de Salas: See LIVING SPACE (LEBENSRAUM): Germany and Nationalist Europe 1939-1942 (3) at http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/index.htm and especially
http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/fascist.htm

Comment by Antnio Martins-Tuvlkin October 18, 2007 @

36. Udmurtia and Volga-Tataria were moved some 1000 km SW of where they actually exist. Granted that such moves were not unheard of even *here* (cp. Jewish homeland at the lower Amur!), and surely Tatars are/were spread in an area much
wider than current Tatarstan, but is looks a bit far-fechted.

Im also surprised that the Saratov area wasnt made a Reich enclave: even the Soviet recognized the local German majority.

Comment by Antnio Martins-Tuvlkin October 18, 2007 @

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37.

Jonmorris: Italy has been devided in the past, yes, and it might be again, but I doubt that the Nazis would be content with controlling half of it.

Comment by sungame October 18, 2007 @

38. But if you are willing to accept German victory as a theoretical experiment

Well, yes, but arguing about these things is half the fun for those of us into Alternate History.

Bruce

Comment by B Munro October 18, 2007 @

39.

@33, 37:

But its not a German victory. Its a stalemate. Thats why its not a matter of the Nazis (or the Allies) allowing Italy to be partitioned: it was the best either side could achieve.

@35:

Well spotted, I think youre right.

Comment by Brett Holman October 19, 2007 @

40. [] Vairk variet uzzint eit! []

Pingback by kaupeens.com Eiropas karte, ja nacistu btu uzvarjui October 19, 2007 @

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