Beruflich Dokumente
Kultur Dokumente
RPTSMERCHANT
DCMNMAYER
COMMITTEEONOVERSIGHTAND
GOVERNMENTREFORM,
U.S.HOUSEOFREPRESENTATIVES,
WASHINGTON,D.C.
INTERVIEWOF:VINCENTKENNEDYMcMAHON
Friday,December14,2007
Washington,D.C.
Theinterviewintheabovematterwasheldat2157Rayburn
Loungecommencingat1:50p.m.
2
Appearances:
ForCOMMITTEEONOVERSIGHTANDGOVERNMENTREFORM:
DAVIDJ.LEVISS,SENIORINVESTIGATIVECOUNSEL
BRIANA.COHEN,SENIORINVESTIGATOR
SAMBUFFONE,PROFESSIONALSTAFF
SARAHDESPRES,SENIORCOUNSEL
BENJAMINCHANCE,MINORITYPROFESSIONALSTAFF
JENNIFERSAFAVIAN,MINORITYPROFESSIONALSTAFF
ForMR.McMAHON:
JERRYS.McDEVITT,ESQ.
GEORGEW.KOCH,ESQ.
MICHAELJ.O'NEIL,ESQ.
K&LGATES
1601KStreetNW
Washington,DC200061600
3
Mr.Leviss.Welcome.
ThisisatranscribedinterviewofMr.VinceMcMahonbythe
CommitteeonOversightandGovernmentReform.Thechairmanofthe
committeesoughtthistranscribedinterviewaspartofthe
committee'sinvestigationintoallegationsregardingtheabuseof
steroidsandillegaldrugsinprofessionalwrestling.
Wouldthewitnesspleasestateyourfullnamefortherecord.
Mr.McMahon.VincentKennedyMcMahon.
Mr.Leviss.BehalfoftheCommitteeonOversightand
GovernmentReform,IwelcomeyouandIthankyouforjoiningus
today.
IamDavidLeviss.IamaSeniorInvestigativeCounselwith
themajoritystaffofthecommittee.Therearemanyofusherein
theroom,soI'mgoingtoaskeverybodytogoaroundandintroduce
themselvesandgivetheiraffiliationsotospeak.
Mr.Cohen.MynameisaBrianCohen,andIamaSenior
Investigatorwiththemajoritystaffofthecommittee.
Mr.Buffone.SamBuffoneforthemajoritystaffofthe
committee.
Ms.Despres.SarahDespres,SeniorHouseCounselwiththe
majoritystaff.
Mr.Chance.BenjaminChance,Republicanstaff.
Ms.Safavian.JenniferSafavian,Republicanstaff.
4
Mr.McMahon.WhyisitRepublicansaresmilingandthe
Democratsaren't.
Mr.Cohen.Youwouldthinkitwouldbetheopposite,
wouldn'tyou?
Mr.McMahon.Theyseemveryfriendlydownhere.
Mr.Leviss.Hopefully,we'reallfriendlyhere.I'lltryto
smilemore.
You'rerepresentedbycounseltoday;isthatright?
Mr.McMahon.Yes,Iam.
Mr.Leviss.Isthisthethreegentlementoyourleft?
Mr.McMahon.Yes.
Mr.Leviss.Ifyougentlemenwouldn'tmindintroducing
yourselvesagainfortherecord.
Mr.Koch.GeorgeKoch,K&LGates.
Mr.O'Neil.MikeO'Neil,K&LGates.
Mr.McDevitt.JerryMcDevitt,samefirm.
Mr.Leviss.Great.Thankyou.
I'mgoingtogooversomegroundrulesthatwehaveforthese
interviews.Weinthemajoritywillbeginaskingquestions.Our
colleaguesontheRepublicanstaffwillhavetheopportunityto
askquestionsaswell.
Wetendtomoveinsortofroughtopicareas.Sometimeswe
jumparoundalittlebit,ifthat'sthewaytheflowofthe
interviewisgoing.Butwe'lltrytobeorderlyaboutit.
Wetendtotakeashortbreakeveryhourorso.Ifyouneed
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totakeabreaksoonerthanthat,pleaseletusknowbecausewe'll
behappytoaccommodateyou.
AnofficialHousereporteristakingdowneverythingwesay,
sothatwecanmakeawrittenrecordofthisinterview.Asa
resultofthat,it'simportantthatyougiveverbal,audible
answerstoeveryquestion.Doyouunderstandthat?
A Yes.
Alsoontherecord,Iwouldliketostateifyouwould
stateagainwhattheintentionofthisis.
Q Sure.Itriedtoattheverybeginning,but
A Iknowyoudid,butIjustwantthatontherecord.
Q No.Absolutely.
Andmypointwas,thechairmanofthecommitteehasinvited
youtocomeforthistranscribedinterviewaspartofacommittee
investigationintoallegationsthatwehavereceivedaboutthe
abuseofsteroidsandillegaldrugsinprofessionalwrestling.
A Thankyou.
Q You'rewelcome.
AsIwassaying,wehaveareporterhere.It'sdifficultto
impossibleforacourtreportertotakedownanaccuraterecordif
wespeakoveroneanother.Soit'simportantthatyouallowmeto
finishaskingaquestionoranyquestionbeforebeginningyour
answer,andI,inturn,willtrytowaituntilyouhavesaidyour
completeanswer.
Andthesameistruewhenattorneysarespeakingoverone
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another,sowe'lltrytoyieldtooneanother.Isthatafair
rule?
Mr.McMahon.I'lldomybest.
Mr.Leviss.Okay.IfIaskyouaquestionthatisunclear
toyouorconfusing,willyouaskmetoclarifyitorexplainit?
Mr.McMahon.Iwilldefinitelydothat.
Mr.McMahon.Good.Iwouldlikethat.
Youare,ofcourse,requiredbylawtotestifytruthfullyto
Congressinansweringyourquestionstoday.Ifyoufailto
testifytruthfully,youcouldbesubjecttocriminalprosecution.
Isthereanyreasonwhyyou'reunabletotestifytruthfully
today?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.Leviss.DoyouunderstandalltherulesthatI'velaid
out?
Mr.McMahon.Yes,Ido.Thankyou.
Mr.Leviss.Areyouoryourattorneysrecordingthissession
todayinanymeans,ataperecordingorinanyothercapacity?
Mr.McMahon.No,notthatI'mawareof.
Mr.McDevitt.Areweallowedto?
Mr.Leviss.No.
Mr.McDevitt.Ididn'tthinkso.
Mr.McMahon.You'reshakingyourhead.Weareallowedto?
Mr.Cohen.No,youarenot.Weareaskingthequestionto
confirmthatyouarenot.
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Mr.Leviss.It'snotsomethingthatwediscussedandIjust
wantedtoclarifythat.
Mr.McDevitt.Whywouldyoueventhinkwewoulddothat?
Mr.Leviss.Ididn'tsuggestthatyouwoulddoit.
Mr.McDevitt.Whatgoodfaithbasiswouldyouevenhaveto
askaquestionlikethat,whetherwe'rerecordingthis?Weknow
it'sagainsttherules.
Mr.Leviss.Youaskedmeifitwasagainsttherules,so
maybeyoudidn'tknow.
Mr.McDevitt.Well,no,Ithoughtitwas.That'swhyI'm
stunnedbyyourquestion.
Mr.Leviss.Ihaveagoodfaithbasistoaskallthe
questionsthatI'maskingheretoday.
Mr.McDevitt.What'syourgoodfaithbasistoaskifwe're
recordingthis?
Mr.Leviss.It'snotsomethingthatwehaddiscussedandI
wantedtoclarifythatyouunderstoodthatit'snotallowable.
Mr.McDevitt.Youdidn'taskanyoftheothertwowitnesses
thatquestion.
Mr.Leviss.You'reright.Anditdidn'toccurtomeuntil
thisafternoonthatIhadn'taskedthem,soIwantedtoclarify
that.
Mr.McMahon.Pleasegoahead.
Ms.Despres.Ifwemay,wehaveaskedotherwitnessesthat
question.
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Mr.McDevitt.Youdidn'taskLinda.Youdidn'task
Stephanie.
Ms.Despres.No.Wehaveaskedotherwitnessesaspartof
thisinvestigationthatquestion.
Mr.Leviss.Mr.McMahon,doyouhaveanyquestionsbeforewe
beginwiththesubstantivepartoftheinterview?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Areyouguysrecordinganyofthis,otherthanthe
stenographeroverhere,intermsoftelevisionorradio?
Mr.Leviss.Ourrecordofitwillbethetranscriptthat
you'llhaveachancetoreview.
Mr.McMahon.JustthoughtIwouldask.
Mr.Cohen.AndperourdiscussionwithJerrybeforehand,
we'venotalertedthemedia.Ourintentionwasthatyouwereable
tocomeinherewithouthavingamediacircus.
Mr.McMahon.Thankyou.
Mr.Cohen.You'rewelcome.
Mr.Leviss.Whydon'tIstartwithsomebackgroundquestions
aboutyourselfandWWE?
EXAMINATION
BYMR.LEVISS
Q Whatisyourcurrentpositionwithinthecompany?
A I'mthechairman.
Dowehavetogothroughthisrigamarole?Whydon'tyoujust
gettothemeatofit?YouknowwhoIam,youknowwhatmy
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positionis.Whydon'twejustgettoit?
Q Well,thereareacouplebackgroundquestionsIhave.
A YouknowwhoIam,whatmypositionisinthecompany.
Ithinkyouguysknowthat.Whydon'twejustgettoit?
Q Okay.I'mhappyto.
A Thankyou.
Q Let'stalkaboutallegationsabouttheuseorabuseof
steroidsandillegaldrugs.I'llhaveanumberofquestionsfor
you.BeforeIgettothemoredetailedquestions,I'minterested
inyourviewsontherisksofsteroids,usingsteroidsorother
performanceenhancingdrugs.
Doyoubelievethatsteroidsorillegaldrugscancause
longtermhealthrisksfortheirusers?
Mr.McDevitt.Iobjecttothat.Youhaveacompound
question,eithersteroidsorillegaldrugs.Couldyouaskone
questionatonetime?
Illegaldrugscoverseverythingfromherointococaineto
whateveryouwanttocallit.Wouldyoubespecificinyour
questionsplease?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Doyoubelievethattheuseofsteroidscancause
longtermhealthrisksforusers?
Mr.McDevitt.Heisnotadoctor.
Ijustwanttosaythis.Heisnotamedicalhere.He'snot
heretotestifyaboutmedicalopinionsoranythinglikethat.
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He'sheretotestifyaboutthesubjectmattershewastoldabout.
Andhisviewsandmedicalopinionsaboutthehealthriskof
steroidsissofarbeyondhiscompetenceasalaymanit'snoteven
afairquestiontobeginwith.
Mr.Leviss.It'saperfectlyfairquestion.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Iunderstandyou'renotaphysician.I'minterestedin
youranswerandyouropiniononwhethertheuseofsteroidscan
causelongtermhealthriskstousers.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouhaveafoundationthatthislayman
wouldbecapableofrenderingamedicalopiniononthatsubject?
Mr.Leviss.I'mgoingtoaskthequestionandI'mgoingto
expectananswer.
Mr.McDevitt.Youcanaskanyquestionyouwant,butdoyou
haveafoundationforbelievingthislaymancouldrenderamedical
opinionaboutthelongtermeffectsofsteroids?
Mr.Leviss.Ibelievethatthisgentlemanhasextensive
experienceinprofessionalwrestlingandhasfamiliaritywiththis
issue.AndIthinkit'sfairtoaskhislayman'sopinionabout
it,yes.
Mr.McDevitt.Howwouldhehavefamiliarityofthelongterm
effectsofsteroiduse?He'snotadoctor;he'snotaphysician.
Haveyouestablishedanyfoundationthathestudiedthe
subjectinascientificfashionoranythingthatwouldgivea
meaningfulopiniononthesubject?No.
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BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Doyouhaveanopiniononthis?
A I'mnotadoctor.IwouldsuggestifIwantedto
knowlongtermeffectsofanydrug,IthinkthefirstplaceI
wouldgoistheFDA.ThatwouldbethefirstplaceIwouldgo.
And,quitefrankly,Idon'tthinktheFDAtellsanyoneabout
thelongtermeffectsofsteroidusageorabusage.AndIwould
suggesttoyouthatthatmightbesomeplacewhereyourcommittee
andMr.Waxman,sinceyouhaveoversightovertheseareas,might
wanttobegin.
BecausethatwasthefirstbiglieintermsoftheFDA
producing,Ibelieve,thefirststeroidcalledDiablo.AndI
thinkifyougotherenow,ratherthanmespeculateorevenread
aboutspeculationinthenewspaper,whichwe'veallread,Ithink
ifyougobacktotheFDA,Iwouldliketoreadandperhapsyou
wouldliketoreadwhatthepurposesofthesedrugsareand
whatthelongtermeffectsreallyare.
BecauseIthinkeverybodywouldbenefitfromthatthe
FederalDrugAdministration,whichIthinkyouguyshavesome
degreeofoversightover;andwhetherornotthedrugsshouldhave
beenproducedtobeginwith,knowingwhatyouknownowaboutthe
possibilityoflongtermeffectsofsteroids,whetherornotthere
wouldbeareviewbytheFDAastowhetherornotthatdrugshould
continuetobeproducedorwhetherornotthereshouldbereview
intodeterminingwhatarethelongtermeffects,whatarethe
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advantages,whatarethedisadvantages.
Ibelievemostdrugs,prescriptiondrugs,tellyouthat
becausetheFDAtestedthingsofthatnature.Soansweringyour
question,IthinkifIwantedtoknowmore,I'malayman,Idon't
haveanopinionintermsofdoctorsandthatsortofthing;butI
wouldprobablygobacktotheFDA,whichiswhereIsuggestifyou
reallywanttocleanupthismessthatmightbewhereyouwantto
go.
Q Itsoundslikeyou'vebeensomethinkingaboutthis
topic.I'minterestedif,fromalayman'sperspective,youhavea
beliefaboutwhethertherecanbelongtermhealthrisksfromthe
useofsteroids.
A I'mnotadoctor.Idon'tknow.
Q Iunderstand.I'mnotaskingifyouknow;I'maskingif
youhaveanybeliefs.
A I'malayman.Idon'tknow.Iwouldliketoknowthat.
Iwouldlikenoknowwhetherornotthereareanylongterm
effectsand,ifso,whatarethey.Canyoutellme?
Q WhatwouldyoutellWWEtalentwhoaskedyouifthere
werelongtermhealthrisksfromusingsteroids?
A IwouldtellthemtheverysamethingIjusttoldyou.
I'mnotadoctor.Idon'tknowiftherearereallyanylongterm
effectsofsteroidusage.
IguessmaybeIcouldfromalaymanstandpointlookat
professionalbodybuilders.AndagainIdon'tknowofany
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longtermeffects,buttheremightbesome.I'mnotadoctor.
Q Andwhatdoyouconcludefromlookingatlongtermbody
builders?
A Howmanytimesdoyouwantmetoanswerthatquestion?
Ijustsaid,letmerepeat,Idon'tknow.Doyouknow?
Q Idon'tknow.
A You'realaymanjustlikeme.Idon'tknowwhat
longtermeffectsbecausetheFDAhasn'tbotheredtotellmeor
anybodyelse.
Q Haveyousoughtamedicalopinionfromamedicalexpert
aboutwhethertherecanbelongtermhealthrisksfromtheuseof
steroids?
A No.
Q I'malsointerestedinyourviewsaboutwhetherthere
areriskswithinprofessionalwrestlingifwrestlersareunderthe
influenceoflet'sstartwithillegaldrugswrestlinginthe
ring,performingintheringundertheinfluenceofillegaldrugs.
Mr.McDevitt.Definewhatillegaldrugsyou'rereferringto,
please,sowehaveaclearrecord.
Mr.Leviss:Iguessillegalperformanceenhancingdrugs.
Mr.McDevitt.Well,ifyoutalktopharmacologists,they'll
tellyoualmosteverydrugisaperformanceenhancingdrug.
Mr.Leviss.I'mnottalkingtoapharmacologist,amI?
Mr.McDevitt.No,you'rebutconfusinginyourquestions.
Ifyouwouldaskwhatdrugyou'rereferringto,thenhe'llanswer
14
yourquestion.
Mr.Leviss.Whydon'twestartwithsteroidsthen?
Mr.McDevitt.Goahead.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Isitsafetosaythatwrestlingcanbeadangerous
activityorsport?Professionalwrestling,I'mtalkingabout.
A It'snotasport.Weknowthisisentertainment.
Q Canitbedangerous?
A Yes,itcan.
Q Canitbedangeroustothewrestlers?
A Yes,ofcourse.They'retheonewrestling.
Q Canitbedangeroustootherpeopleinandaroundthe
ring?
A Generally,certainly,no.
Q Okay.But
A Areyoureferringtospectators?
Q Refereesoranybodyelsewhomightbeinorrightnear
thering.
A Itcanbedangeroustoareferee.
Q Doyouhaveanyopiniononwhethertheuseofsteroids
bywrestlersintheringcouldpresentapotentialdangerto
themselvesorothersinthering,physicaldanger?
A Well,letmegobacktoyouroriginalquestion.
SinceIdon'tknowanylongtermeffectsofsteroidusage,
becausetherehasn'tbeenanystudiesonitbypeoplewhoapprove
15
it,theFDA,Idon'tknowanymoreaboutthatthanIwouldmy
knowledgeofwhetherornottherearelongtermeffects.
Q Well,whataboutshorttermeffects?
A Iwouldn'tknowthateither.Idon'tthinktheFDA
givesyouthateither,dothey?
Q Youdon'thaveanyopiniononwhetherawrestlerwhois
currentlyusingsteroidscouldhavehisabilitiesimpairedinthe
ring?
Mr.McDevitt.Inotherwords,you'reaskingwhetherheknows
whethersteroidscausementalimpairment?
Mr.McMahon.Mentalimpairment?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Anysortofimpairment?
A I'mnotadoctor.Iwouldn'tknow.
Q Youdon'thaveanyopiniononit?
A Iwouldn'tknow.
Q Haveyouthoughtaboutitatall?
A No.
Q HasitcomeupinconversationsatWWE?
A Astowhetherornotusingsteroidscouldcausesome
sortofphysicalimpairmenttosafety?Isthatwhatyou're
talkingabout?
Q Sure.Aboutwhetherthecompanyoughttobeconcerned
atallabout
A Letmejustsay,thecompanyisalwaysconcernedabout
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safetyofourtalent,absolutely.Wewerethefirstpeopletodo
anynumberofthingstomakethingssafeforourtalent,ifthat's
thedirectioninwhichyou'regoing.
Q Well,doyouconsiderordoesthecompanyconsiderbeing
undertheinfluenceofsteroidsasapossiblesafetyissueinthe
ring?
A Idon'tknow.
Q Youdon'tknowwhetherthecompanyconsidersthatat
all?
Mr.McDevitt.Heansweredyourquestion.
Mr.Leviss.Idon'tunderstandyouranswer.
Mr.McDevitt.Youifdon'tunderstandhisanswer,that's
nothisproblem.Youaskthequestions;hegivestheanswers.
Mr.Leviss.Thisisnotaboutproblems,Jerry.Thisis
aboutmakingsurethatIhaveaclearunderstandingofhisanswers
tomyquestions.
Mr.McDevitt.No,itisnotaboutmakingsureyouhavea
clearunderstandingaboutanything.It'saboutansweringthe
questionyouaskhim.Hehasansweredthequestionyouaskedhim.
Ifyoudon'tunderstand,that'syourproblem.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Youjustsaidthatthecompanyhas
A IfyouwanttoknowwhatIjustsaid,we'llhaveitread
back.I'mnotgoingtotakeyourwordforwhatIjustsaid.
Q HasanyoneinmanagementatWWEconsideredwhetherthe
17
possibilityoftalentbeingundertheinfluenceofsteroidscould
presentasafetyrisktopeopleintheringoraroundthering?
A Sincenooneinthecompanyhasanyknowledgeanymore
thananyonehereatthistablehasanymoreknowledgeabout
shorttermorlongtermeffectsofsteroids,Idon'tknow.
Q Soithasn'tcomeupindiscussionsatthecompany;is
thatwhatyou'retellingme?
A Idon'tknowaboutdiscussionsinthecompany.It
hasn'tcomeupinanyofmydiscussions,ifthat'syourquestion.
Q Well,youansweredthatnobodyknowsaboutthe
shorttermrisksorifthereareany.
A Andlongtermaswell.Andwewouldliketo,Ithink,
averagewhoevertakeswhateverdrugwouldliketobeableto
readthetableandhavetheFDAtellyouwhatsomeofthe
possibilitiesareaboutusingthesedrugsandsoforth.
Ithinkeverybodyatthistablewouldliketoseethat.I
don'tthinkthat'swhatyou'llfindfromtheFDA.
Q Howdoyouknowthatnooneinthecompanyhasanyviews
aboutthis?
A Idon't.Ijustsaidme.
Q Okay.
A Idon'tknowwhatotherpeopleinthecompanyIcan't
tellyouwhattheyarethinking.
Q Whydidyouputthecompany'sWellnessPolicyinto
place?
18
A WhydidI?
Q Uhhuh.
A Becausewe'reconcernedaboutthewellnessofour
talent.That'swhyit'scalledtheWellnessPolicy.
Q AndoneaspectoftheWellnessPolicyisdiscouraging
abuseofsteroids;isthatcorrect?
A That'scorrect.
Q WhyisthatincludedintheWellnessPolicy?
A ItwassuggesteditshouldbeincludedbyDr.Black.
Q Doyouthinkitwasareasonableinclusion?
A Yes,becausehesuggestedit.
Q Didyouagreewithit?
A Otherwiseitwouldn'tbeinthepolicy.
Q IsthereanythingthatDr.Blacksuggestedforthe
policythatyoudisagreedwith?
A No.
Q DoyouhaveanyunderstandingaboutwhyDr.Black
suggestedthatsteroids,thatthepolicyshouldaddressthe
possibleabuseofsteroids?
A Theoriginalideaandtheoriginalproblemthatwe
thought,andindeedIthinkwehad,was
Becauseyoucan'tmeasurethesethings,theoriginalideawas
thatwefeltthattheabuseofprescriptiondrugswastheproblem
thatwehad;sonaturallywewentoutandhadaprogramput
togetherbyprofessionals.
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Dr.Blacksuggestedthatanyprogramputtogetherby
professionalsshouldincludesteroids,soweincludedsteroids.
Q Whatmadeyouconcludethattherewasaproblemwith
I'msorry,yousaidabuseof
A Prescriptiondrugs.
Q prescriptiondrugs?
A Right.
Q Whatmadeyoureachthatconclusion?
A Therewereanumberofincidentsinwhich,inthepast,
peoplehavefallenasleepwhentheyshouldn't,whichwould
indicatethattheyweretakingtoomanypainkillers,thingsof
thatnature.
Q SodidyoutaskDr.Blacktoputtogetherapolicy?
A Yes.
Q Andwhatsortofinstructionsdidyougivehimabout
whatshouldgointothepolicy?
A Really,it'smoreDr.Black'sdecision.Imean,in
termsofwhatistheverybestWellnessPolicywecanput
together.SoDr.Blackreallymademostoftherecommendations.
Q Anddidheexplaintoyouhisreasonsfordifferent
elementsoftheWellnessPolicy?
A Notreally.
Q Didyouquestionanyofhis,anyelementsofthe
WellnessPolicyashepresentedit?
A No,notreally.Wehaddiscussionsintermsof
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formulatingit,butotherthanthat
Q Somewitnesseshavetoldthecommitteethattheybelieve
WWE'scurrentbusinessmodelrequirestalentthatiswillingto
usesteroidsandillegaldrugs.
Howdoyourespondtothatopinion?
Mr.McDevitt.Waitaminute.Howdowerespondtowitnesses
wehaven'theardandthatyou'retellingussaythings?Wedon't.
Mr.Leviss.HowdoyourespondtotheopinionthatIhave
justdescribedtoyou?
Mr.McDevitt.Whorenderedtheopinion?
Mr.Leviss.Ijustrenderedtheopinion
Mr.McDevitt.No.No.Ijustwhorenderedthatopinionso
hecancommentontheiropinion?
Mr.Leviss.Doyouhaveanobjection?
Mr.McDevitt.Ido.Hewantstoknowthebiasofthe
witnesses,whotheyare,sohecancommentonit.
Mr.Leviss.Isthatyourresponsetotheopinion?
Mr.McMahon.Yes,itwouldbemyresponse.
Mr.McDevitt.Whoarethesepeople?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Doyouhaveanyotherresponsetoit?
A I'mabusinessman.
Q Okay.
A I'magoodbusinessman.
Q Ihavenodoubt,asuccessfuloneatthat.
21
A Thankyou.
Q Whyisitanabsurdquestion?Educateme.
A Repeatthequestion.
Q Theopinionthatsomewitnesseshaveexpressedtothis
committeeisthatWWE'scurrentbusinessmodelreliesontalent
whoarewillingtousesteroidsorillegaldrugs.
Mr.McDevitt.Andwhoexpressedtheopinion?
Mr.Leviss.I'mnotgoingtotellyouwhoexpressedthe
opinion.
Mr.McDevitt.Whywouldyoucommentonthat?
Youdon'tevenhavetoanswerthat,Vince.Youdon'thaveto
commentonthat,andIwouldn'tifIwereyou.Thatisn'tevena
goodfaithquestion.
Youcan'tevenascertainfromwhatyousaidwhetherthis
personevenworksforWWE,haspersonalknowledgeorsomenutbag,
andhe'ssupposedtoexpressanopiniononthat?
Mr.Leviss.Mr.McMahon,you'reherevoluntarily.Ican't
compelyoutoanswerthequestion.
Mr.McDevitt.That'sright,youcan't.
Mr.Leviss.Iwouldaskyoutoconsideryourwillingnessto
beheretodayandrespondtoourquestions.
Thecommitteehasagoodfaithreasonforaskingthese
questions,basedontheinvestigationsofarandthewitnesses
we'veinterviewed.Imerelyaskyoutorespondtothem.
Mr.McDevitt.Ifyouhaveagoodfaithreason,thentellus
22
whoexpressedtheopinionsohecancommentonit.
Mr.McMahon.Iwouldliketoknowwhoexpressedtheopinion.
Mr.Leviss.Iunderstandthat,andthat'sareasonable
desire.And,unfortunately,I'mnotatlibertytosharethatwith
you.
Mr.McMahon.It'stotallyabsurd.
Mr.McDevitt.Ithoughtyouwereheretoaskhimfact
questions.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Whydoyouthinkpeoplemighthavethatview?
Mr.McDevitt.Wait.Letmebeclearhere.
Webroughthiminherevoluntarilytoaskfactbased
questionsaboutthesubjectonBrian'slist,notopinionsabout
somenutbagthatyouwon'tevenidentify,thatwedon'tevenknow
ifheeverworkedfortheWWE,hasanyknowledgeoftheWWEand
expressedopinions.
Ifyouhavefactquestionstoputtothiswitnessaboutthe
subjectmattersyouputthere,he'svoluntarilyheretoanswer
them,andIsuggestyoumakeuseofyourtimetodoso.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Mr.McMahondoyouhaveanyideawhysomebodywouldtell
ussomethinglikethat?
A Yes,Ido.
Q Okay.Canyoushareitwithus?
A Insanity.
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Q Nootherreason?
A Insanity.
Mr.McDevitt.Vince,don'teventakethesebaits.Youdon't
havetoanswerthosekindofquestions.
We'renotheretoanswerthose.Andifyouthinkyoucan
evergetasubpoenatoaskquestionslikethat,goaheadandtry.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Doyouhaveinputintothecreativesideofthe
business?Andbythat,Imeanaroleindeterminingwhoamongthe
talentispromotedwithinWWE?
A Yes.
Q Andwhatroleisthat?
A TodothebestIcantopresentthesetalentstothe
publicsothepubliccanprettymuchdeterminewhoisthemost
popularandtoputthesetalentsinthemostpopularenvironment
wepossiblycansothatwecandogoodbusiness.
Q Sure.No,Iunderstandthat.
It'smoreofaprocessquestion.I'mtryingtofigureout
whereyoufitintothecreativeprocess.Youknow,doideasas
anexample,doideasfloatupwithintheorganizationandget
presentedtoyou?Doyoutendtoinvolveyourselfearlyonin
discussionsaboutwhotopromotewhen?
I'mtryingtogetabetterunderstandingofthedaytoday
businessonthecreativeside,whatyourinvolvementislike.
A Well,Iguessmaybeitdependsonthedevelopmentofthe
24
talent.Doyouwanttostartfromscratch?
Q Sure.Imean,overview.Idon'twanttowasteyour
time,butIdowanttounderstandhowthebusinessgoes.
A Okay.
Well,thebusinessgoesinasituationwherebyifsomeoneis
inadevelopmentalsystemandtheythinkthatthispersonhasthe
possibilityofmakingitinWWE,thentheyentersomesortofan
elementaryprogram.
Wetakealookatthemandseewhatkindofworkethicthey
have,whetherornottheyhavethe"it"factorintermsof
personalityandthecrowdacceptingthem,whatkindofverbal
skillstheyhave,overallpersonality.
Q Andareyouinvolvedatthatstage?
A No.
Q Does"we"meanthecompany?
A Right,that'sthecompany.I'mnotinvolvedinthat
stage.
Q Whenwoulditcometoyourattention?
A Afteryouhavesomeonewhobasicallyhasthose
qualities,thenI'mgoingtotrytofindtherightscenario,you
know,ormystaffwouldfindwritingstaff,Stephaniecertainly
wouldbeverymuchinvolvedintermsoftalentrelations,andtry
todevelopthetalentinsomeway.
Q StephanieisMs.McMahonLevesque?
A That'sright.
25
Q Justfortheclarityoftherecord.
A Sure.
Q Whataboutinvolvementincreatingstorylines?Areyou
involvedinthatprocess?
A Sure.
Q Inwhatwayoratwhatstageintheprocess?
A Itdepends.Wegetstorylinesfromourwriters,weget
storylinesfromourtalent,thingsofthatnature.Inthe
newspaper,orwhatever,wetrytocomeupwiththingsthatare
relevanttowhat'sgoingonintoday'senvironmentandtryto
relatetothat.
Q Butwheredoyoufitintotheprocess?
A Ultimately,ifit'stoptalent,I'llfitinatavery
highlevel.
Q Meaning?
A MeaningIwillbeverymuchinvolvedinthedevelopment
ofthattalent,ofthestoryline.
Q Bytoptalent,isthatlikethechampionsinthe
divisions?
A Notnecessarilychampions,buttoptalent.
Q Whatdoestoptalentmeantoyou?
A Toptalentmeanstomethatthepeoplethataredrawing
themoneyandpeoplewithpopularityofthemcomingintothe
arena.
Q Doyouhaveanyroleindeterminingwhichwrestlers
26
receivetopbillingwithintheorganization?
A Sure.
Q Andwhatroleisthat?
A Determiningwhetherornottheyreceivetopbilling.
Q Dopeoplemakerecommendationstoyouordoyoucomeup
withtheparticularwrestlersyourself?
A Acombination.
Q Doyouhaveanyroleinassigningwrestlerstospecific
divisionswithinthecompany?
A Whatdoyoumeanbyspecificdivisions?
Q ECW,Raw,SmackDown?
A Sure,Ihavearoleinthat.
Q Andwhatroleisthat?
A Supervisoryrole,generaloversight.
Q Whataboutchoosingtalenttoappearatpayperview
events?
A Sure.Ageneraloversight,sure.
Q Isthereanyaspectofthecompany'soperationswhere
youdon'thavesomeinvolvementorsomeoversightrole?
A I'mthechairmanoftheboard,soIwouldthinkIwould
havesomeoversightovereverythingthatwedoasthechairmanof
theboard.
Q Wouldthatincludemarketing?
A Thatdefinitelywouldincludemarket.
Q Woulditincludetalentrelations?
27
A Sure.
Q Operations?
A Asthechairmanoftheboard,IthinkIjustsaidthatI
wouldhavesomedegreeofoversightovereverythingthatwedo.
Q Inyourinvolvementindeterminingwhichwrestlers
appearinwhichstorylinesorwhichwrestlersareadvancedwithin
theorganization,doyouknowwhetherdiscussionsofsteroiduse
haveevercomeupintheseconsiderations?
A No.
Q Andjusttoclarify,discussionsofsteroidusehavenot
comeup?Or,no,you'renotaware?
A Notaware.
Q Whatkindofthingsdoyoulookforintoptalent?
A Principallythe"it"factor,whichisabroadbasedterm
forwhetherornottheyhave"it,"which"it"definingwhether
ornotthepublicfindsthempleasing:the"it"factor,their
personalityingeneral,theirflareforshowmanship,their
athleticismaswell,andtheirworkethic,theiroverallknowledge
ofthebusinessandthingsofthatnature.
Q Howdoyouassesswhethersomeonehas"it"ornot?
A Bylisteningtotheaudienceandwatchingtheaudience.
Weprettymuchhave,Iguesswhatwouldyoucall"it"?We
haveanexperiencealmosteverynightwithourouraudienceis
veryvocal,likeatestkindofenvironment.Sothey'lltellyou
whetherornotthey'rereactingtoatalent,beitpositiveor
28
negative.Andiftheydon'treacttoatalent,thattellsus
that'snotgood.
Q Yourdaughtercharacterizeditasafocusgroup?
A Thankyou.That'swhatIwastryingtoremember,focus
group.
Mr.Cohen.Whenyoutalkaboutthe"it"factor,isphysical
appearancepartofthe"it"factor,sizeandstrength,isthat
partofthe"it"factor?
Mr.McMahon.No,notnecessarily.Wehaveanexpression,
andI'llhavetodescribethisforyou,wehaveanexpressionthat
thisiswhereyoumakeyourmoney,meaningyourface,okay?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Soyou'reholdingyourhandsuponthesideofyour
face?
A Yes.Upbymyfaceinasquare.Itdependson,again,
yourpersonalityandyourprojectionmorethananythingelse,
whetherornotyouhaveit.Nodifferentthan,itappliestomost
everythinginshowbusiness,whichis,ofcourse,thebusiness
thatI'min.
I'mintheentertainmentbusiness.Sothat'sreallytheway
thatyou,quote,makeyourmoney,isyourface.Ifyouhavea
veryexpressivefaceandyoucanshowhappinessandyoucanshow
angerandyoucanshowsympathyandyoucanshowthingsofthat
natureinyourface,thentheaudiencegenerallycanrelateto
you.
29
Q Somewitnesseshavedescribedtoustheirperception
Mr.Leviss.Partofthisinvestigation,Mr.McMahon,isour
determiningwhethertestimonythatwereceivefromwitnessesis
credible,issupportedornot.Wewouldn'tneedyouinhereifwe
weregoingtobelieveeverywitness.
Mr.McDevitt.Idon'tbelievewhatyoujustsaid,becauseif
itwastrue,youwouldtellusthenamesofthewitnesses,and
thenyouwouldgetthebenefitofwhatweknowaboutthe
witnesses.
Ifyoureallywanttoknowifthey'recredible,howdoyou
expectthemtocommentwithoutknowingtheirnames?
Mr.Leviss.I'minterestedin
Mr.McDevitt.Youjustsaidotherwitnesses.
Mr.Leviss.hearingyourperspectiveonsomeopinions
thathavebeenreportedtous.Ican'timaginethatwecould
bringanybodyelseinherewithbroaderexperienceinprofessional
wrestlingatthispoint.AndI'minterestedinyourperspective
overtime.
Somewitnesseshaveexpressedthatwrestlersinthe'80shad
adifferentphysicallookthantheydotoday,meaningtheywere
lessmuscular,theywerelesssculpted,manyofthemhadguts.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Isthatanopinionthatyouwouldshareaboutwrestlers
inthe'80sversuswrestlerstoday?
A No.Asamatteroffact,intermsofsize,wrestlersof
30
todayaremuchsmallerthanwrestlersofyesteryear.
Q Really?Doyouhaveanyideawhythat'sthecase?
A Wecan'tfindbigguys.Imean,thereisnotan
attractiontoourcompanyofbigpeoplewantingtobeapartof
it.Isupposeit'stheNFLandthingsofthatnature.
Q Andby"big"doyoumeanheight,doyoumeanmuscles?
A Stoptryingtoputwordsinmymouth.
Q I'mnot.
A Youare.That'swhatyou'retryingtodo.
I'mjusttalkingoverall,generalappearance,not
muscularity.I'mtryingtohelpyouhereintermsofyour
speculationofthe'80s,asopposedtowhereitisnow.Andquite
frankly,I'mtellingyouthatfromaweightstandpoint,froma
heightstandpoint,wrestlerstodayaresmallerthantheywerein
the'80s.
Q HaveyouevertoldaWWEtalentorprospectivetalent
thattheyneededtogainweightorbebiggerormoremuscularin
ordertosucceed?
Mr.McDevitt.Youhavethreequestionsthere.
Mr.Leviss.I'mhappytobreakitupintothreequestions.
Mr.McDevitt.Whydon'tyoudothat?There'sastandardway
toaskalegalquestion.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q HaveyouevertoldaWWEtalentorprospectivetalent
thatheorsheneededtogainweightinordertobesuccessful?
31
A No.
Q HaveyouevertoldaWWEtalentorprospectivetalent
thatheorsheneededtobebiggerinordertobesuccessful?
A No.
Backtotheweight,Ihavesuggestedtheyloseweight.
Q Yousuggestedlosingit,butnotgainingit?
A Right.
Q HaveyouevertoldaWWEtalentorprospectivetalent
thatheorsheneededtobemoremuscularorwordstothateffect?
A No.
Q AreyouawareofwhetheranyonerepresentingWWEhas
evertoldatalentorprospectivetalentthatheorsheneededto
bebigger?
Mr.McDevitt.Anybodyrepresenting?Doyoumeanan
employee?
Mr.Leviss.AnybodywhocanspeakforWWE.
Mr.McDevitt.AnybodycanspeakforWWE.
Mr.Leviss.You'rethelawyer.Notanybodycanspeakfor
WWE.
Mr.McDevitt.AnybodycanclaimtospeakforWWE.Doyou
meananemployee?
Mr.Cohen.Employeeoracontractor.
Mr.McMahon.No.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Areyouawareofwhetheranybodywithauthoritytospeak
32
forWWEhasevertoldI'mgoingtohavetorunthroughmythree
questionsattheassistanceofyourattorney.
A Sure.
Q WhetheranybodywithauthoritytospeakforWWEhasever
toldeitheraWWEtalentoraprospectivetalentthatheorshe
neededtogainweight?
A No.
Q Areyouawareofwhetheranybodywithauthoritytospeak
forWWEhasevertoldaWWEtalentorprospectivetalentthathe
orsheneededtobemoremuscular?
A No.
Q Thankyou.
Mr.Cohen.Areyoufamiliarwiththetermtobe"onthe
gas"?
A Sure.
Q What'syourunderstandingofthatterm?
A Takingsteroids.
Q Andareyoufamiliarwiththetermtobeonthejuiceor
thejuice?
A Sure.
Q Andwhat'syourunderstandingofthatterm?
A Itmeansthesamething.
Mr.Cohen.Thankyou.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q HaveyouoranyoneatWWEevermadeitpartofascript
33
orstorylinethataparticulartalentneededtobebiggerormore
muscular?
A No.
Q HaveyouoranyoneatWWEevermadepartofascript
commentaryonthefactthatawrestlerhaslostweightoris
smallerthanheorsheusedtobe?
A Repeatthequestion.
Q HaveyouoranyoneatWWEevermadepartofascript
commentaryonwhetherawrestlerortalenthadlostweightoris
smallerthanheorsheusedtobe?
Mr.McDevitt.Iassumethewayyouphrasedthequestion,you
meantohisknowledge.
Mr.Leviss.EveryquestionIaskyoutodayistoyour
knowledge.
Mr.McDevitt.Well,no,youdon'tphrasethemthatway.
Youjustsaid,"haveyouoranybodyatWWE."That'snotthe
wayyouphrasethatkindofquestionifyouwanttoaskthatkind
ofquestion;yousay,"haveyou,oranybodytoyourknowledge"is
thewayyouphrasethatquestionifyou'regoingtoaskit,
Counsel.
Mr.Leviss.Mr.McMahon,tosaveustimetoday,youcan
assumethateveryquestionIaskyoutodayisprecededby"toyour
knowledge."
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q HaveyouoranyoneatWWEevermadepartofascript
34
discussionaboutwhetherawrestlerhaslostweightorissmaller
thanheorsheusedtobe?
A Notpartofascript,no.
Q Hasitbeenpartofthediscussioninaprogram,whether
ornotitwasoriginallyscriptedthatway,toyourknowledge?
A Idon'tscripteverythingourtalentssay.Theyadlib,
soIyouknow,theremayhavebeenadlibsomewhereoverthe
courseofthelast25,30yearsinwhichsomethingwouldhavebeen
saidaboutsomeone'ssize.
Intermsofscripting,answer,no.
Q Canyourecallanyrecentprogramwhere
Mr.Leviss.Whatdidyoucallthem,"talent"?
Mr.Cohen.Talent.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q wheretalenthavecommentedinadvanceofthematch
aboutthefactthatawrestlerhaslostweight,issmallerthanhe
orsheusedtobe?
A AsIrecall,therewasoneincidentinwhichTripleH,
asanablib,madereferencetoRandyOrtonwhohadbeeninjured
andhadnotbeentrainingandfirstcamebackjustintermsof
weightloss.
Q Andwhatwasthatreference?Couldyouelaboratefor
me?
A AllIcanrememberistheweightloss.
Mr.Cohen.Arethereanyotherincidents?
35
Mr.McMahon.Thatwasn'tscripted,itwasadlibbed.
Mr.Leviss.I'mgoingtogotoadifferenttopic.Idon't
knowifyouallhavequestions.
Ms.Safavian.We'regood.Thankyou.
Mr.Leviss.Ihavesomequestionsforyouaboutthe
transitionfromWWE'soriginaldrugtestingprogram,whichI
understandfromourpreviousinterviews,thedocumentsranuntil
1996tothecurrentpolicy,whichIunderstandwentintoeffectin
Februaryof2006.
I'mnotgoingtorunthroughthemechanicsofthedevelopment
ofthatfirstprogrambecausewecoveredthatwithprior
witnesses.ButIwouldliketodiscusssomeofthedifferences
betweenthetwoprograms.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q AsIunderstandit,youalleliminatedtherandomdrug
testingprogramin1996.Thisistheprogramthatranfrom'91
through'96;isthatcorrect?
A Yes.
Q Why,inyourview,didWWEstopthatprogram?
A Oneofthereasonswas,wewerecompetingwithTed
Turnerandwewerefightingforoursurvival.Itwasaprivate
companyatthetime.Wehadlost$5millionto$6million,and
testingwasveryexpensive.
Q Howexpensive?
A Inthesixfigures.
36
Q Howdidthetestingprogramaffectyourcompetitionwith
TedTurner?
A Idon'tunderstandyourquestion.YouhavetoaskTed
Turner.
Q IbelieveyousaidyouwerecompetingwithTedTurner's
program?
A Right.
Q Sohowdidcontinuingoreliminatingthedrugtesting
programimpactonyourcompetingwithTedTurner?
A Well,weeliminatedsomeofourcostsandatthesame
timewelaidoffalotofpeopleinourorganization,because,
again,wewerefightingforeconomicsurvival.Asamatterof
fact,ourCOOactually,CFOatthetimeeveneliminated
watercoolers,andthatwaswheremosteverybodyinthecompany
drewtheline,almostrevolted,becausewetookthewatercoolers
away.
Sothat'showdeepsomeofthecutswereintermsoftrying
tosavemoney.Andoneofthewaysthatwediditwasthecostof
thedrugprogram.
Q Hadthedrugprogrambeensuccessful,inyourview?
A Sure.
Q WhenwewereinterviewingLindaMcMahonyesterday,she
saidthat,inyourview,therewasnotalevelplayingfieldwith
TedTurner'swrestlingprogram,WCW,andthatthedrugtesting
programputWWEatacompetitivedisadvantage.
37
Isthatyourview?
Mr.McDevitt.Thisisthewayyourecharacterizewitness'
testimony,huh?
Mr.Leviss.LindaMcMahonusedthephrase"levelplaying
field"?
Mr.McDevitt.NowIhaveaclueastohowaccuratelyyou
characterizewitness'testimony;youaskhimaboutwhatother
witnesseshavetoldyou.
Mr.Leviss.AreyousuggestingthatLindaMcMahondidnot
say"levelplayingfield"yesterday?
Mr.McDevitt.ThatisnotthetotalityofLindaMcMahon's
testimonyaboutthecircumstancessurroundingtheterminationof
thedrugtestingprogram,atall.
Mr.Leviss.Ineversuggestedit'sthetotality.
Mr.McDevitt.It'sinterestinghowyoucondenseallofthat,
Counsel.Butanyway,goahead.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Doyouhaveanyviewonwhethertherewasalevel
playingfieldwithWCW?
A Thiswasn'tlevelatall.TedTurneratthattimehad
joinedforceswithTimeWarner,andhisresourceswerejustvast
andoursweren't,soitwasnotalevelplayingfield.
Q Inyourview,didhavingadrugtestingprogram,while
WCWdidnothavearandomdrugtestingprogram,didthatplaceWWE
atacompetitivedisadvantage?
38
A Well,again,aswewerefacingeconomicsurvival,saving
thecostofthatprogramhelpedusintermsofsavingmoneyand
helpedusthenhanginthereandcompetewithTurner.
Q Isitjustamatterofcost?Isthereanyotherreason
whyhavingadrugtestingprogramputyouatacompetitive
disadvantage?
A Whereareyougoingwiththis?
Q Itseemstomeanycostthecompanyhascouldbean
issue.
A Absolutely.That'swhyIsaidwedideverything.We
eventookthewatercoolersoutandhadtoputthembackin.
Q Inyourview,wasthereariskthatyouwerelosing
talenttoWCWbecause,inpart,WCWdidnothaveadrugtesting
program?
A Absolutelynot.TedTurneropenedhiswallet,wrotea
hugecheckandbasicallytookallofourtoptalentbywritingbig
checkswhichwecouldnotcompetewith.
Q JustsoIunderstand,inyourview,itwasapurely
economicdecisiontoeliminatetherandomdrugtestingprogram?
A Iwouldsuggestthatwasamajorreason,yes.
Q Arethereanyotherreasons?Maybethey'renotmajor
reasons,but
A Theremaybe,butnotthatIcanthinkofatthemoment.
Q Wasthereanydissentwithinthecompanyaboutwhether
toeliminatetheprogram,thedrugtestingprogram,in1996?
39
Mr.McDevitt.Expressedtohimorthatheknowsof?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Again,toyourknowledge?
A No.
Q Toyourknowledge,didDr.Blackexpressanydissent
abouteliminatingthedrugtestingprogram?
A Nottomyknowledge.
Q Didyouhaveanyconcernsthatifyoustoppedrandom
drugtesting,thesuccessesyouhadachievedinthatareamightbe
reversed,thattalentmightstartusingorabusingdrugs?
A Isupposethere'sthatpossibility.Again,Ithinkthe
mostimportantaspectofourcompanywastoremaininbusiness,
firstandforemost.
Q Butwasitaconcernthatyouhadatthetime?
A Well,letmesee,fromacommonsensestandpoint,ifyou
haveanyformoftestingandallofasuddenyoudon't,thereisa
possibilitythenthatsomeonemayuseillegaldrugs,moresothan
ifyouaretesting.
Q Thatwasaconcernyouweighedandyoumadeyour
decision?
A Ijusttoldyouwhatmyconcernwas.Wewerefighting
foreconomicsurvivalandeventookthewatercoolersout.
Idon'tknowhowmuchmoreclearIcanbeonthis.
Q Intheyearpriortoendingtheprogram,howmany
wrestlersapproximatelyweresuspendedforpositivedrugtests?
40
A Idon'tknow.
Q Wereany?
A Idon'tknow.Iimagineso.
Mr.Cohen.Wereyouresponsibleforadministering
suspensionsunderthatprogram?
Mr.McMahon.Yes.
Mr.Cohen.Wasanybodyelsedidyousharethat
responsibilitywithanybodyelse?
Mr.McMahon.No.Andagainthat'sthebiggestdifference
betweenprogramsofthepastandtheircurrentprogram.
Idon'thaveanythingtodowiththecurrentprogramother
thantheformulationofit.AndIthinkit'skindoflike
baseball,thatyouneedtohaveanindependentsourceoverseeing
thesethings,whichiswhatwehavenow.
I'mnotinvolvedatall,again,excepttheformulationofthe
wellnessprogram.Sothatmakesthisprograminandofitselffar
superiorthananythingwe'veeverhad.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Aftertherandomtestingpolicywassuspendedin1996
andbeforethecurrentpolicywasimplementedinthebeginningof
2006,wereanydrugtestsconductedonWWEtalent?
A Ibelieveso.
Q Anyideahowmany?
A No.Idon'trecall.
Q Weretheyconductedit'sa10yearperiodwe're
41
talkingabout.Weretheyconductedeveryyear,toyourknowledge?
A Theywereforcause,okay?ButIcan'ttellyouhow
manyandIcan'trecallhowmanywehadforcause.
Q Whatkindofreasonswouldjustifyordidjustifydrug
testingduringthattimeperiod?
A Ifsomeoneweretardyconsistently,iftheymissed
dates,iftheywouldfallasleepwhenthey'renotsupposedtofall
asleep.Anyaberrantbehavior,Ithink,wouldhavebeen,inall
likelihood,areason,aprobablereasontotest.
Q Anythingelse?
A Huhuh.
Mr.Cohen.Whoconductedthetests?
Mr.McMahon.IthinkBlackdid,butI'mnotcertain.
Mr.Leviss.I'mgoingtoshowyouadocumentthatyouall
producedtousthatwe'regoingtomarkExhibit1.AndI'mgoing
askyoutotakealookatitplease.
[VinceMcMahonExhibitNo.1
wasmarkedforidentification.]
Mr.McMahon.Sure.
Mr.Leviss.Tellmewhenyou'vehadachancetoreviewit.
Mr.McMahon.I'monthesecondparagraph.I'maslow
reader.
Mr.Chance.Thissaysthatrandomsuspensionhasbeen
stopped.Imean,Ijustwanttomakesureyouweresayingthat
thegrouptestinghadbeenstopped,butrandomwasstillinplace.
42
I'mjustwonderingifthatwasIjustwanttomakesure
we'reonthesamepageintermsofthat,thatthegrouptesting
hadbeenstopped,howeverrandomtestingwasstillanoptionafter
'96.
Mr.Leviss.Anoption?
Mr.Chance.Right.
Mr.Leviss.Yes.
Mr.McMahon.Okay.I'vereadthis.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q JusttoclarifywhatBenwasasking,randomtestingwas
anoptionbetween'96and2006?
A Anoption?
Q Well,thatwashisquestionthatI'mtryingtoconfirm.
Isthatthecase,wasrandomtestinganoptioninthattime
period?
A Letmesee.Icanprobablyreadthistoyouinthe
eventyouhaven'treadit.
Q I'vereadit.
A Okay,great."Additionally,wereservetherightto
testanyindividualanytimefortheuseofillegalsubstances."
Q Sothatmeansthatthecompanyreservedtherightto
conductrandomdrugtests,correct?
A Yes.
Q AndwhenIaskedyoubeforewhetherindividualswere
testedinthattimeperiod,Igotthesensefromyouranswerthat
43
allthetestsyoucouldrecallwereforcause,thattheywerenot
randomdrugtests.
AmIunderstandingyouranswercorrectly?
A Right.
Q ThedocumentIaskedyoutotakealookatisa
memorandum.It'sdatedOctober25,1996.Itappearstobesigned
byyouandsenttoalltalent,agents,refereesandringcrew.Is
that,infact,yourmemorandum?
A Yes.Notmyhandwriting,butitdoesn'tmatter;it'son
mystationeryandI'msureIapprovedit.
Q Andthismemorandumannouncesthateffective
immediately"WWE,effectiveimmediately,issuspendingdrug
testingandcollectiononagroupbasis"?
A That'swhatitsays.
Q AndwhenIwasaskingyouquestionsaboutendingthe
randomdrugtestingpolicyin1996,thisisthememorandumthat
endsthatdrugpolicy;isthatcorrect?
A That'scorrect.
Q Okay,that'sfine.Thankyou.Idon'thaveanyother
questionsaboutthat.
A Justfortherecord,bytheway.
Q Sure.
A Wearetheonlywrestlingorganizationinhistoryto
everhaveanykindofdrugand/orWellnessPolicyever.Thisis
ourthirdonenow,whichisunquestionablyourbest.Butwe're
44
theonlyorganizationinthehistoryofthisbusiness,tomy
knowledgeanyplaceintheworld,thathasinstitutedanythinglike
this.
Wecertainlyaremoreconcerneditshowswearemore
concernedforourtalentthananyotherorganizationinhistory,
includingthestandardizationofrings,whichisextremely
important,tomakesurethatringsareclean;makesurethatthey
areallthesamesize,becauseiftheyarenotallthesamesize,
youhavea16footringascomparedtoan18ora20.
Thewayitusedtobeyearsago,youwouldgotoacertain
areaandyoucouldhaveadifferentsizering,differenttypeof
ropesaswell,andtheringscouldbeveryhardordifferentthan
that.Sowewentthroughtheeffortofstandardizingrings.
Wealsowentthroughtheeffortofcreatingabarrieraround
theringsothatitwouldhaveacorralinessence.Wealsowere
thefirstpeopletohavematsdownontheflooraroundtheringin
theeventthatsomeonefelloutofthering,asopposedtofalling
onconcrete.
Sotherearemany,manythingslikethatinthehistoryof
thisindustryinwhichwe'reveryproudtosaythatwehave
demonstratedourconcernforthewellnessofourathletesjust
fortherecord.
Q AndIappreciateyouraddingthat.
Whowithinthecompanyorwhatgroupwithinthecompanyhad
theresponsibilityforcomingupwithnewsafetymeasures,
45
recommendingsomeoftheimprovementsthatyou'vetalkedabout?
A Basically,theycomefromanybody.
Q Imean,isitanybody'sjobinparticular?
A Ithinkit'severybody'sjob.
Q Wherehavemanyofthesesuggestionscomefrom,theidea
toputthematsaroundtheringsinsteadofconcrete?
A Thatwasmine.
Q Wereanyoftheothersyoursuggestion?
A Sure.Standardizingringswasmysuggestion,aswell.
Q Isitsafetosaythatyouarecontinuallyevaluating
riskstothetalentandthespectatorsandimprovingthering
setup?
A Idon'tthinkwecanimprovetheringsetup.Ithink
it'sasgoodasitcanpossiblybe.Butwe'reopenfor
suggestionsbyanyoneintermsofimprovement.
EvenourcurrentWellnessPolicy,thecurrentWellnessPolicy
continuestoimproveallthetime.Idon'tthinkthere'syetto
staywiththetimesintermsofaWellnessPolicyoranyother
policyasitrelatestosafetyandthebenefitofyourperformers.
Nothingissetinstone.
We'veaddedDr.Ray,we'reconsideringaddingan
endocrinologist,thingsofthatnature.We'veaddedmoredrugs
thatareprohibited.Thisisaworkinprogress,asanygood
programwouldbe,aworkinprogress.Nothingissetinstone.
Sowe'realwayslookingforwaysinwhichwecanbetterour
46
companyinanoverallbasis.
Q Whatarethegoalsorwhatarethegoalorgoalsof
theWellnessPolicy,inyourview?
A Tohavewellnessforourathletesgenerally,justas
it'sstated.
Q Isit,ineffect,companywide,doesitgoverneverybody
atthecompanyorjusttalent?
A Itonlygovernsthosetalentsthatareregularly
scheduledtocompeteinthering.Isay"compete,"performinthe
ring.
Q Sowhatcategoriesofemployeesorcontractorsare
excludedfromthat?
A Well,weliveinConnecticut,ourheadquartersarein
Connecticut.AndIbelieveit'sagainstthelawtotestany
Connecticutresident.
Mr.McDevitt.Employee.
Mr.McMahon.Employee.Thankyou.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Sothatmeansnoonefromheadquartersiscovered;is
thatwhatyou'resaying?
A That'scorrect.
Q Arethereanyotherarealloftheoperationsin
Connecticutoraretheyelsewhere,aswell?
A Byoperations,ourworldheadquartersarein
Connecticut.WehaveofficesinLondon.Let'ssee.Wejust
47
openedoneinChina.Wehavesixorsevenofficesalloverthe
globe.
Mr.Cohen.AreanyofyourtalentfromConnecticut?
Mr.McMahon.Sure.Ithinksomeofthemare.
Mr.Cohen.AretheysubjecttotheWellnessPolicytesting
provisions?
Mr.McMahon.Yes.
Mr.McDevitt.Becausethey'reindependentcontractorsand
theyhavecontracts.
Mr.Cohen.Sofulltimeemployees;contractorsaren't?
Mr.McDevitt.Thewellnessprogramisaboutwrestling
talent.Anindependentcontractorisnotacorporateemployee.
Mr.Cohen.Iknow.I'mtryingtounderstandthepolicy.
I'mnotfamiliarwithConnecticutlawwithregardtorandom
testingofemployeesandcontractors.I'mtryingtounderstand
that.
Mr.McDevitt.IcanprovidetheciteforConnecticutlaw,if
youwantit.Butyoucan'tdrugtestemployeesunderConnecticut
law.AndseveralStates,bytheway,havelawslikethat.Some
peoplefinditoffensivetohavetopissinbottlesinfrontof
people.
Mr.Cohen.AndyoucandrugtestcontractorsinConnecticut?
Mr.McDevitt.Thestatutecoversemployees.Itdoesnot
addressindependentcontractors.
Mr.Cohen.Okay.
48
Mr.McDevitt.That'swhythedesignationisimportant.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Whataboutperformers,Iguess,whoappearoncamera,
butwhoaren'twrestling,aretheyindependentcontractors?
A Suchas?
Q Referees.They'retalent,right?
A Ithinkrefereesareindependentcontractors.
Q AretheysubjecttotheWellnessPolicyaswell?
A Ibelieveso.
Q Whataboutthetrainers;aretheytalent?
A No.Ithinkthey'reindependentcontractors,asI
recall.
Q Youthinktheyareindependentcontractors?
A Doyouwantthisback?
Q Sure.Whydon'tweputithere.Thetrainers,you
believe,areindependentcontractors;isthatwhatyousaid?
A Look,I'mnotrealcertainatthatlevelwhetherornot
someoneisanindependentcontractor,whetherornotthey'rean
employee.
WegotthemoutofHealthSouth,okay,soIdon'tknowwhether
ornottheyare,ornot.Andsomeoftheotherindividuals,you
know,onalowerlevel,Iwouldn'tknow.
Q Isanybodyelseapartfromthewrestlerscoveredbythe
WellnessPolicy?
A SpecificallyImean,again,yousaidwhyareyou
49
frowning?
Q I'mnotfrowning.I'mtryingtounderstand.I'lltry
tosmilemore.
A Good.Thereyougo.
I'mnotsure.Generallythisisforourfulltime
employeesnotemployees,butperformersinthering;theremay
besomeotherpeoplethatareunder.Whetherornotreferees
areIbelievetheyare,okay.
ButtheremaybesomebodyI'mforgetting,so,youknow,
generally.Imean,that'swhatthisWellnessPolicyisallabout.
50
RPTSKESTERSON
DCMNHOFSTAD
[2:49p.m.]
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Inthetimeperiodbetween1996whentherandomdrug
testingpolicywasendedandthebeginningof2006whenthe
wellnesspolicywentintoeffect,didyoueverlearnfirsthandor
receivefirsthandinformationthatanyindividualassociatedwith
WWEhadusedsteroids?
A "Associated,"doyoumeanlikethejanitororsomething
likethatinthebuilding?Youknow,whatIdon'tknowwhat
"associated"means.
Q AnybodypaidbyWWEindependentcontractors,talent,
employees.
A Again,wepayalotofpeople.Itissuchabroad
question.Idon'thaveanyideawhatyouaretalkingabout.
Q Let'sstartwithtalentthen.
A DoIhaveanyknowledgeofanytalentthattooksteroids
duringthatperiodoftime?
Q Tooksteroids,correct.
A NotthatIrecall.
Q Howaboutemployees?Samequestion.
A NotthatIrecall.
Q Howaboutmanagement?Samequestion.
A NotthatIrecall.
51
Q Okay.Again,inthetimeperiodbetween1996whenthe
randomdrugtestingpolicywasendedand2006whenthewellness
policywentintoeffect,didyoueverreceivefirsthand
informationthatanyindividualassociatedwithWWEI'llstart
withtalenthadusedillegaldrugs?
A By"illegaldrugs,"areyoumakingreferenceto
steroids?
Q No.Ialreadyaskedyouaboutsteroids.Iguessthe
useofsteroidswithoutanappropriateprescriptionwouldbe
illegal.
A That'scorrect;itwouldbeillegal.
Q So,yes.
A NotthatIrecall.
Ihavetosaysomethinghere,guys.Idon'tknowwhere
you'regoinginbetweenthesepolicies.Okay.Butletmejust
stateagainfortherecord,okay,thatIthinkwhatmosteveryone
shouldbeconcernedwithiswhatwe'redoingnow,whatourcurrent
policyis.
AndIdon'twanttobepenalizedandIsomewhatfeelI'm
insulted,quitefrankly,sittinginfrontofyoutodayby
answeringsomeoftheseridiculousquestions.I'mabusinessman.
I'magoodbusinessman.Idothingslegally.We'reapublic
company.Weputsmilesonpeoplesfacesallovertheword.
That'swhatwedo.Thisisafunbusiness.
Soitseemstomethatthisinquiryissomesortofwitch
52
huntinwhichIguesssomeoneistryingtopenalizemeorsuggest
thatwhatgoesonatourcompanyisnotproper.Again,withthis
wellnessprogram,thisisthebestonewehaveeverhad.SoI
don'tunderstandtherelevancebetweenthesecondwellnessprogram
andthis.Idon'thaveanyideawhereyou'regoingorwhyyou're
evenaskingmethesequestions.
Q Well,nobodyistryingtopenalizeanybody.
A ThenIwouldexpectagoldstaronmylapelwhenIleave
thisroom.
Q We'lllookforagoldstar.
Thequestiongoestotryingtounderstandwhatyourknowledge
wasbetweentheendofthefirstprogramandthebeginningofthe
secondprogramaboutthelevelofsteroidusageamongWWEtalent
andemployeesandtheleveloftheabuseofillegaldrugs,whether
therewasanyornot.We'retryingtounderstand
A Therecouldhavebeen.IthinkIsuggestedearlier
therecouldhavebeenanincidentinwhichwehadtestingfor
individualsthat,youknow,hadaberrantbehaviororwhathave
you.Otherthanthat,theansweris,no,Idon'trecallanyone
whohashadaproblemwithanythingillegal.
And,again,weareapubliccompanynowandranitpretty
muchlikeapubliccompanyinthepast.We'renotgoingtobe
dealinginillegalactivities.Thatisnotgoodbusiness.
Q Ofcourse.
A Sowhenyouaskmesomethinglikethat,didsomesortof
53
illegalactivityIfindittobeoffensive.
Q I'mnotaskingyouifyou'reengagedinillegal
activity.
A Itsoundstomelikeyouare.
Q Beforeyouhadyouroriginaldrugtestingpolicy,did
youhaveanyknowledgeaboutwhetherWWEtalentoremployeeswere
abusingsteroids?
A No.
Q Soyouputthepolicyintoplaceforwhatreason?
A You'retalkingabouttheveryfirstone?
Q Sure.
A Thefirstpolicywasgenerallyputinplacebecauseit
wasperceived,andIbelieveaccuratelyso,thatwehadacocaine
problem.Anditwasthe'80sandalotofpeoplewereengagedin
thatkindofpartyatmosphere.Thatisthereasonwhy.Idon't
evenknowifwetestedforsteroidsinthatfirstpolicyornot.
Q Sotherewasaperceptionatthattimethattheremight
beacocaineproblemamongsomeWWEpersonnelortalent?
A Yes.
Q Priortostartingtheoldpolicy.Wasthereany
perception,inbetweenthetwopolicies,between1996and2006,
wasthereanyperceptionaboutwhetherWWEtalentorpersonnel
mighthaveasteroidsproblem?
A Idon'tknowhowIwoulddeterminesomeonehasa
steroidsproblem,quitefrankly.
54
Q Okay.Howaboutanillegaldrugproblem,likethe
cocaineproblemyoualludedtointhe'80s?
A Therecouldhavebeeninstancesinwhichthere
weresomeoneengaginginthatkindofactivity.
Q Wasthatyourperception?
A Look,Idon'tknowwhereyou'regoingwiththis.I
reallydon't.
Q I'mtryingtounderstandyouranswer.
A Wekeepgoingaroundandaroundhereonthisstuff.I
can'ttellyou,intermsofmyrecollection.Thiswasalongtime
ago,guys.Alotgoesthroughmyhead,youknow,asthechairman
oftheboardofapubliccompanyonadailybasis.Ican't
rememberalotofthisstuff.
AllIcantellyouis,youknow,we'vehadthisisour
thirdwellnessordrugwhateveryouwanttosaypolicyput
intoeffect,andnoonehaseverhadone,includingTedTurner
fromTimeWarner.Okay?Noonehaseverhadoneofthese,tomy
knowledge.
Imean,Idon'tgetyourlineofquestioninghere.Ireally
don't.Itisaccusatory,andIfinditoffensive.
Mr.Cohen.Mr.McMahon,we'renotheretooffendyou.We're
heretogetthefacts.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Priorto2006,wereyouawareofanymediareportsof
theuseofsteroids?
55
A Couldhavebeen,absolutely.
Q Ortheuseofillegaldrugs?
A Couldhavebeen.
Q Doyourememberanyspecificinstancesofinformation
beingbroughttoyourattention?
A No,Idon't.
Q Thankyou.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Whatmadeyoustartupthewellnesspolicyin2006?
A Ithoughtitwastherightthingtodo.
Q Okay.Why?
A Becausewewereconcernedaboutthewellnessofour
performers.
Q Sure.
A Whatdoyoumean,"sure"?
Q Well,Ibelieveyouwhenyousayyou'reconcernedabout
thewellnessofyourperformers.That'swhyIsaysure.Whydid
youfeelthattherewasaneedforawellnesspolicy?
A Well,becausewe'reconcernedaboutthewellnessofour
performers.Anditwassomethingthatwehaddiscussed
internally,astoinstituteawellnesspolicy,nota"gotcha"drug
policykindofthing,althoughthatispartofit,butmoreofa
wellnesspolicyfortheconcernofourperformers.
Q Okay.
[Discussionofftherecord.]
56
Q Diddevelopingawellnesspolicyhaveanythingtodo
withthedeathofEddieGuerrero?
A No.Quitefrankly,wehadbegundevelopingthepolicy
priortoEddie'suntimelydemise.
BYMR.BUFFONE:
Q By"developingthepolicy,"whatdoyoumean?
A Formulatingstrategy.IbelieveIthinkDr.Black
actuallywasengagedinthispriortoEddie'sdeath.
Q SoitisyourrecollectionthatyoucontactedDr.Black
priortoEddieGuerrero'sdeath?
A Ibelieveitwouldhavebeenapartofit.Iknowthat
itwasdiscussedintermsofbuildinginawellnesspolicyprior
toEddieGuerrero'sdeath,correct.
BYMS.DESPRES:
Q Canyoudescribewhatthemajorcomponentsofthe
wellnesspolicyare?
A Themajorcomponentsaretheoverallwellnessofour
talent.
Q Butspecificallywhatdoesthewellnessprogramfocus
on?
A Ithinkthatyouallhavecopiesofthewellnesspolicy,
andIwouldsuggestyougoreadthat,becausethatwilltellyou
mosteverythingyouneedtoknow.
What?Cardiacincludeswellness
Mr.McDevitt.Butitisnotinthedocument.
57
Mr.McMahon.Oh,Ibegyourpardon.
BYMS.DESPRES:
Q And,actually,thecardiacwedoknowaboutthe
cardiacprogram,andthatisoneofthethingsIwaswondering,
is,whydidyouchooseletmestepback.
Thewellnesspolicyconsistsofadrugtestingcomponent,
whichisafairlysignificantcomponentofthepolicy,anda
cardiacwellnesspolicycomponent.Whythosetwoasthefocus?
A Well,theheartisamajorportionofthebody,andit
isneededtopumpbloodthroughthebodysoyoucanperformdaily
duties,andtheheartisextremelyimportantineverythingthat
youdo.Alotofcardiovasculartestingisbeingdonenowwith
varioussports,thingsofthatnature.
Soitwasimportantforus,youknow,intermsofour
athletes,tomakesureasamatteroffact,wehadoneinstance
latelyinwhichthenewwellnessprogram,intermsofthetesting,
actuallyfoundasignificantprobleminoneofourperformers.
Subsequentlyitwasfixed.Theindividualwastakenoffthe
roster,intermsofhisperformance,atthetimeuntil
subsequentlyhewasreleasedbyamedicalphysicianandthe
problemhadbeenfixed.
SoIthinkitisalogicalextension,ifyou'retryingtodo
awellnesspolicy,thatyou'dcertainlyincludetheheart.
Q Doyouincludeneurologicalisthereaneurological
componenttothewellnessprogram?
58
A No,thereisn't.Itissomethingwe'reconsidering
though,inourwellnessprogram.
Q Whataboutorthopedic?
A Whatisorthopedic?
Q I'mjustthinkingwrestlersprobablyareatincreased
riskforallkindsof,youknow,hipissuesandkneeissues,
ankles,elbows,shoulders.Isthatcomponentincludedinthe
wellnessprogram,aswell?
Mr.McDevitt.Whydon'tyouaskthemwherewesendpeople
fororthopedicproblemswhentheygethurt.Thatmightanswer
yourquestion.
BYMS.DESPRES:
Q Iwouldlikethat,butjustintermsof,ifIcould,in
termsofunderstandingthewellnessprogram,isthereaspecific
orthopediccomponenttothewellnessprogram?
A Idon'texactlyunderstandyourlineofquestioning.We
haveproblemssometimesbecauseofthenatureofourbusiness,you
know,thatrequirethingstobefixed.Ihadadoublequadtear
onbothlegs.
You'resympatheticwiththat.Thankyou.Ifonlyitwere
genuine.
Buttherearealotofproblemsthatyouhave,brokenribs,
thingsofthatnature.Itisthenatureofourbusiness.Other
thansaying,"Don'tgooutthereandperform,"Idon'tknowwhere
you'regoingwiththis.
59
Whensomeonedoeshaveaninjury,wesendthemtothe
appropriateparties.Dr.Andrewsisoneoftheforemostdoctors,
intermsofputtingpeoplebacktogetherdown,inAlabama.Hehas
donesomeworkonmeaswellasalotofourotherperformers.
ButIdon'tknowwhatyoumeanbythat,otherthanaconcern,
obviously,forourathletes.
Q Iguess,withthecardiaccomponent,ifyouhavecardiac
screeningforthewrestlers,thatispartofthatwellness
program,thattheygoandtheyhavethiscardiacdoctorthatthey
getscreenedby.AndIunderstandthat'sanewfeatureofthe
wellnessprogram.
A That'scorrect.
Q Right.AndsoIwasjustwonderingwhethertherewas
somethingsimilarforotherbodyparts,wherewrestlersmaybe,
youknow,particularlyvulnerable.Andthat'swhyIthoughtthat
orthopedicjustaskedyouaboutanorthopedicprogramor
perhapsaneurologicalprogram.
A IthinkIansweredyourquestion,intermsofthe
neurologicalprogramissomethingwe'relookinginto,actually,
withsomeguysoutofPittsburgh.ButIdon'tknowhowwecould
throwinsomesortoforthopedicaspectintothewellnesspolicy.
Idon'tunderstand,really,whatyouareevensaying.
ButallIcantellyouisthat,asIsaidearlieron,this
programisaworkinprogress.Andwhateverthatworkinprogress
continuestomakethisabetterwellnesspolicy,wearecontinuing
60
topursue.
Q Thankyou.
Mr.Leviss.I'mgoingtomarkthisasExhibit2.AndI'll
askyoutotakealookatit.
[VinceMcMahonExhibitNo.2
wasmarkedforidentification.]
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Tellmewhenyou'vehadachancetoreviewit.
A I'vejustscannedit.Ifyouwantmetoreaditlineby
line,Ithinkwe'llbehereforanotherhourorso.
Q Ihopethatwon'tbenecessary.
WhatwemarkedasExhibit2isacollectionofdocumentsthat
yourcompanyprovidedtous,whichIbelievetobethe2006
SubstanceAbuseandDrugTestingPolicyasitwaseffectiveon
February27,2006.Isthatwhatyoubelievethistobe,aswell?
A Sure.
Q Iunderstandthattherehavebeensomeamendmentstothe
currentpolicyinbetweenFebruary2006andtodaythatshouldn't
reallybeimportantforthesequestions.
UnderSection11ofthepolicy,whichisonpage67the
pagenumberI'mreferringtoisthepagenumberatthebottom
there.
A Whatisthepagenumber?
Q Page67.
A I'mwithyou.
61
Q Section11definesapositivetest,anditstatesamong
otherthingsletmeseeittalksaboutbaselinetesting,
that,"Theinitialtestoftalentunderthispolicyshallbe
consideredbaselinetestingandshallnot,ifpositive,subject
talenttodisciplinaryaction."I'mreadingat(b).
Whatwastherationale,ifyouknow,forhavingabaseline
testunderthepolicythatdoesnotincludeanypenaltiesfora
positivetest?
A Ithinkyouhavetostartsomewhere.
Q Okay.Youhavetostartsomewhere,meaningwhat?
A Youhavetostartsomewhereintermsoftheinstitution
ofawellnesspolicy.
Q Okay.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Whywasthedecisionmadetostartwithbaselinetests
thatdidnotsubjecttalenttoinitialpenalties?
A Ithink,again,Ithinkprobablyeveryprogramis
probablyalittledifferent.Youcanfindanumberofdifferences
ineveryprogram.Forinstance,intheNFLmyunderstandingis
thatwetest,onaverage,fourtimeseachtalent,fourtimesa
year;theNFLdoesn't.
SoIthinkthatthereareanumberofthingswhereyoucan
pickapart,youknow,everytest.Iwouldsuggestwefeltthis
wasthefairwaytobegintesting.And,youknow,itisawayto
begintheevolvementofwhatInowconsidertobe,youknow,an
62
excellentwellnessprogram.
AndImightaddthisjustfortherecord,thatweare,tomy
knowledge,notonly,asIstatedbefore,theonlywrestling
companytoeverinstituteanythinglikethis,wearetheonly,to
myknowledge,entertainmentcompanytodoanythinglikethis.We
areintheentertainmentbusiness.And,asIrecall,Congressman
Waxmanisfromthedistrictorwhathaveyouofprettymuchofthe
heartofentertainment.Idon'tknowofanyotherentertainment
companythatinstitutesanytypeofwellnessprogramlikethis.
So,again,justfortherecord,thereisabigdistinction
betweenWWEasanentertainmentcompanyandMajorLeagueBaseball
oranyothersportthatisoutthere.
SoIbelievethatthiswasawaytostarttheprogramsothat
itevolvesintowhatitisnowandwillcontinuetoevolveinto
thebestwellnesspolicyanywherearound,iswhatwehope.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Whoareyourprimarycompetitorsintheentertainment
business?
A Anyonewhoasksforadollarfromtheconsumer.Itcan
bemoviecompanies.Itcanbeanyplacewhereyouareaskingfor
abuck.That'sourcompetition.
Q Arethereparticularcompaniesorentitieswhoyouview
asbeingincompetitionforthesamemarketshare,thesame
audience?
A Well,thereisanotherwrestlingcompany,ifthatis
63
yourquestion.
Q Onlyifthat'swhoyouviewasyourprimarycompetitor.
A IjusttoldyouwhoIviewasmyprimarycompetitor,
unlessyouwanthertoreaditback.Doyouwantmetorestate
it?
Q Anybodyinvolvedinentertainmentisyourcompetitor
A Thataskstheconsumerforadollar.Itdoesn'tmatter
whatitis,becausewecrossalmosteveryline.We'reinthefilm
business,okay?Weareintheliveeventbusiness,the
payperviewbusiness,thepublicationbusiness.We'reacrossthe
board.Youknow,we'realmostineveryform.So,yeah,anyone
whoisintheentertainmentbusinessisourcompetitor.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Asentertainers,doyoubelieveyourtalenthasan
influenceonthebehaviorofthegeneralpublicinanyway?
A Aninfluenceinwhatrespect?Influenceintermsof
whetherornottheyenjoyourproduct?
Q Whethertheyletmespecifyit.Adolescentmales,as
aparticulardemographic,adolescentmales,doyoubelievethey
lookuptotheWWEwrestlers?Dotheydesiretobelikethemin
anyway?Dotheyseethemasrolemodels?
A Iwouldsuggestnot.Iwouldsuggestyou'resmiling
again.Betterthanafrown.
Iwouldsuggesttoyouthatadolescentsareprettysmart,
eventhoughthatisaverysmallsegmentoftheviewingaudience
64
thatwehave.Butnonetheless,Ithinkthatthey'reprettysmart.
Theyknowthatwhatwedoisaperformance.Sotheyknowthat
everythingwehavearecharacters.Theyarenotreallife
individuals.
SoIwouldsuggestthatnoonebelievesanyofthesehuman
beingsarerolemodelsanymoresothanBatman.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Asabusinessman,howdoyougaugethesuccessofthe
company?Doyoulookatfinancialmetricsversusthoseofanother
company,ordoyouhavesomeotherwaythatyouevaluatewhether
thecompanyismeetingyourbusinessgoals?
A Well,letme,fortherecord,againstatethatI'mnever
satisfiedwithanything,intermsofourbottomlineorour
grossesoranythingatalllikethat.
Q Youwantworlddominationinentertainment?
A That'syourwords,notmine.I'dliketohaveasbiga
pieceaswecanallovertheword.Butthequestionis
Q Iwastryingtounderstandhowyouevaluatebusiness
successforthecompany.
A Bottomlineandstockvalueandthingsofthatnature.
Q Backtothebaselinetestingandthewellnesspolicy,do
youknowwhoseideaitwastoincorporatethatprovisionintothe
policy?Andby"thatprovision"Imeanabaselinetestforwhich
thereisnopenaltyforapositivetestforaprohibiteddrugora
metaboliteofaprohibiteddrug.
65
A No,Idon'trecallwhoseideaitwas.
Again,guys,youhavetostartsomeplace.We'rean
entertainmentcompany.Westartedsomeplace.Thiswasapartof
thewaywestartedthewellnessprogram.Whenyoulookatiton
anongoingbasisandthethingsthatweputinsincethen,thisis
anexcellentwellnesspolicy.You'vegottobeginsomewhere.
Areyoutryingtoslapmywristsbecausetherewassomesort
of,youknow,provisionlikethis?Iguessthat'syouropinion.
Ifthat'swhatyouwanttodo,gorightahead.Itwasastart.
Q Nobodyisslappinganybody'swrists.We'retryingto
understand
A Great.Thankyouverymuch.Idon'twantyoutospank
meonthebutteither.IwantthatgoldstarwhenIleavehere.
Q Iwilllookforone.
We'retryingtounderstandhowthepolicyevolved.In
documentsthatwereprovidedtothecommittee,itindicatesthat
approximately75WWEwrestlerstestedpositiveinthatbaseline
roundoftests.
A Testedpositiveforwhat?
Q Foreitheraprohibiteddrugorametaboliteofa
prohibiteddrug.
A Okay.
Q Wereyousurprisedbythatnumberofpositivetest
results?
A Yes,Iwas.
66
Q Andwhywereyousurprised?
A Ididn'tthinkthatwe'dhavethatkindofpopulation,
youknow,withthoseproblems.
Q Thatwasahighernumberofpositiveteststhanyou
expected?Isthatwhatyouaresaying?
A That'swhatIjustsaid,thanIwould'veanticipated,
yes.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Didyouanticipateacertainnumberofpositives?
A No.Iwasjustsurprised.Iwasn'tshockedmaybe,but
Iwassurprisedbythatnumber.
Q Inthisbaselinetesting,wereyouevermadeawareof
whetheranyatthetimethetestswereconductedthiswasin
early2006,whenthetestswereconductedwereyouevermade
awareofanycurrentorformerWWEchampionsortopWWEtalent
thattestedpositiveunderthisbaselinetestingprogram?
Mr.McDevitt.WashegiventhenamesbyDr.Black?Isthat
thequestion?
Mr.Cohen.Wereyougivenanynamesdidyoufindoutby
Dr.Blackorthroughothersources,didyouatthetimeofthe
testing?
Mr.McDevitt.You'veputsomeidentifiersinthequestion.
Ithinkafairparaphrasetoyourquestionis,didDr.Blackgive
himtheidentitiesofthepeoplewhotestedpositiveonthe
baselinetesting?Isthatessentiallywhatyouareasking?
67
Mr.Cohen.Idon'tknowifIcanrestrictthequestionto
Dr.Black.Idon'tknowwhoelseintheWWEmighthavehadthis
information,mighthaveprovidedittoMr.McMahon.
Mr.McDevitt.Well,ithastocomefromDr.Black,atleast
originally.DidDr.BlackoranybodythatDr.Blacktoldthe
identitiestoconveytheidentitiesofthebaselineteststo
Mr.McMahon?Isthatessentiallywhatyouareasking?
Mr.Cohen.Thatismyquestion.
Mr.McMahon.AndwhetherornotIreadthenames,orthings
ofthatnature?Idon'trecallreadinganyofthenames.
Tome,itdoesn'tmatter.Itdoesn'tmatter.Whatmattered
wastheongoingtesting.Anyonewhotestedpositive,intermsof
thisbaselinething,wouldn'thavebeenaconcernofmine,other
thanthefactthatthenumberwaslarger.Whatwouldbeaconcern
ofmineistheongoingtesting.Thatwouldhavebeentheconcern.
So,noistheanswertothat.
BYMR.BUFFONE:
Q Didyougettheresultsofthebaselinetests?
A Idon'tbelieveIdid.IfIdid,Ididn'tlookatthem.
LikeIjustsaid,I
Mr.McDevitt.Sam,whenyousay"results"Imean,wego
backandforth,soIjustwanttobeclearwhetherwe'retalking,
like,86testedpositive,orwhateverthatnumberwas,or
individualnames.
Mr.Buffone.Thetotalresultsinthegeneralspeakingof
68
howmanytestedpositiveonbaselinetests.
Mr.McMahon.Iwastoldhowmanytestedpositive.
BYMR.BUFFONE:
Q Soyouweregiventhegeneralresultsofthebaseline
tests?
A IjustsaidIwastoldofthenumberofpositives.
Q Ijustwanteditclearfortherecord.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Anddidyouaskforanyofthespecificindividuals?
A No,Ididnot.Itwouldn'thavemattered,okay?It
wouldn'thavematteredtotheongoingdevelopmentofthispolicy.
That'swhatmatters,guys.Whetherornotitstartedthiswayor
didn'thereisthewayitstarted.Okay?So?
Q Doyourecalltheadoptionofawarningpolicygoverning
talentwhotestpositiveforaprohibiteddrugandthenprovidea
prescriptionthatisdeemednotmedicallyjustified?
A Damn,Ididn'tunderstandthatquestionatall.
Q Okay.Atalenttakesadrugtestunderthiswellness
policy,testspositiveforaprohibitedsubstance,andthenis
requiredtoproduceavalidprescription,ifthetalenthasa
validprescription,justifyingthatprohibitedsubstance.Isthat
correct?Areyoufollowingmesofar?
A No.IthinkIknowwhereyou'regoing.
Q Okay.
Mr.Cohen.MayI?
69
Mr.Leviss.Sure.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Theinformationyouprovidedtothecommitteecontained
testresults,positivetestresults,brokenintothreecategories
forwrestlerswhotestedpositivefollowingthebaselinetesting.
Youindicatedanumberofwrestlers,15inMarchof2006to
February2007,youindicatedthat15wrestlersweresuspended,
threewrestlersreceivedtherapeuticuseormedicaluse
exemptions,and12wrestlersreceivedwarnings.
Canyoudescribethecircumstancesunderwhichthose12
wrestlersreceivedwarnings?
Mr.McDevitt.You'rereadingfromthatlistDr.Blackgave
us?Whenyousay"you,"justsothatisthequantitative
informationthecommitteeaskedustogetfromDr.Blackandthat
cameokay.You'rebasicallyaskinghimwhatheknowsaboutthe
warningbusiness?
Mr.McMahon.That'swhatyouareasking.
Mr.McDevitt.Justgettothequestion.Weallknowwhywe
arehere.Askthequestion.
Mr.Leviss.Hetriedtogetthere.
Mr.McDevitt.Hedidn'ttrytogetthere.Hetriedtodance
everywherebut.AskhimabouthisconversationwithDr.Black,
forChrist'ssake.Comeon,quitdancing.
Mr.McMahon.Idon'thaveanythingtohide,guys.Just
shootmerightbetweentheeyes,okay?
70
So,inanyevent,yeah,Irecalltheconversationwith
Dr.Black.AndtheconversationwithDr.Blackwasoneinwhicha
numberofindividualshadstatedthattheyhadlegalprescriptions
forusingsteroids.AndDr.Blackhadstatedinthemeetingwe
hadonebigmeetinginWashington,D.C.,ironically,inwhich
Mr.Leviss.I'msmiling.
Mr.McMahon.Yes,youare.Thankyou.
InwhichDr.Blackstatedthatifyouhadalegal
prescriptionforadrugthatwaslistedhere,youknow,isonthe
substancelist,that,youknow,thatwouldbeokay.
Soanumberoftheperformerstookthatasmeaningthat,hey,
ifIhadalegalscriptfromaphysician,myphysician,thatwould
beokay.
SoincallingDr.Black,Istated,"Dr.Black,thisiswhat
yousaid,"andthenfurthermoresaid,"Now,you'vegottwo
choices,Dr.Black.AndthewayIwouldlookatitandI'm
finewithwhateveryourdecisionis.You'retheguy
administratingthis,notme.A,youcantelltheseguys,'Hey,
look,youmisinterpretedwhatIsaid,andscrewyou,you're
positive.'Or,B,youcansuggest,maybe,that,youknow,youget
awarningiftherewassomemisunderstanding,yougetwarningfor
this,andthen,ongoing,youclearlyunderstandDr.Black."
Dr.Black,himself,chosethewarningaspect,notthefirst
aspectof,"Ifyoumisunderstoodme,screwyouanyhow."Sothat
wasallthatwas,Dr.Black'sdecision.
71
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Doyouremember,didDr.Blackinitiallyrecommendthat
thosewrestlersbesuspended?
A Yes.
Q Hedid.Andwhatwashisrationaleforthat?
A Theytestedpositive.
Q Anddidhebelievethattherewassomethingwrongwith
theprescriptionsthatwereprovidedtohim?
A Idon'tknowwhetherhethoughttherewassomething
wrongwiththeprescriptionsprovided.You'retellingmethat
therewereacoupleofexceptions.Idon'tknowhisrationale
otherthanthefactthatthereseemedtobesomeconfusionby
talent,iswhatDr.Blackstatedinthemeeting.
Thatconfusion,obviously,wasclearedupveryquicklyby
Dr.Black.ItwasDr.Black'sdecisionthatinsteadofsaying,
"Well,ifyoumisunderstoodme,it'stoobad,"or,"Ifyou
misunderstoodme,hereisawarning,andgoingforwarditisvery
clearwhatImean."ThatwasDr.Black'sdecision.
Youhadtostartsomewhere,andiftherewassomesortof
misunderstandinganywhereinthepolicy,it'simportantto
straightenthatout.That'swhatDr.Blackdid.
Q Howwouldyoudescribethetoneofthatconversation?
A Thetoneofwhatconversation?
Q ThetoneofyourconversationwithDr.Black.
A Prettymuchlikethetoneofmyconversationnow."It's
72
uptoyou,Dr.Black,whichwayyouwanttogo."
Q Yourrecollectionisyoudidn'tadvocateforoneview
overanother,yousimplysuggestedtohimthathehadtwooptions?
A Absolutely.Anditwashisdecision.
Q Youpresentednoviewsregardingwhetherthosewrestlers
shouldorshouldnotbesuspended?
A Ithinkyoujustaskedmethatquestion,didn'tyou?
BYMR.BUFFONE:
Q Doyourecallwhoinitiatedthatconversation?
A Idid.
Q Doyourecallwhyyouinitiatedthatconversation?
A Yes,anumberofcomplaintsabouttheindividualswho
weresuspended,orabouttobe,Iguess.Theyhadbeennotified
byDr.Black,andtheyhadsomescripts.
Q AndhadtheybeennotifiedbyDr.Blackthattheir
prescriptionswereinvalidor,orunderhisjudgment,werenota
forlegitimatemedicalpurpose?
A Ican'tspeaktoDr.Black'sjudgment.AllIcanspeak
toissomedegreeofconfusionamongtalenthavingwhattheyfelt
tobealegalscriptascomparedtowhatDr.Blacksaidinthe
meetingortheintentofwhathesaid.SotheonlythingI'm
tryingtodoisclearthisupsothattalent,andDr.Blackfor
thatmatter,wouldmakesureeverybodyunderstandswhatthis
policyreallymeans.Thatisit.
LikeIsaid,allofthisisaworkinprogress.Whenyou
73
firstinstitutesomething,you'relikelytohavealittlebitof
confusiononewayortheother.Thiswasclearedupveryquickly.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Thecomplaintsthatcametoyou,Igatheratthatpoint
youobviouslybecameawareofsomeofthewrestlerswhohadtested
positiveandreceivedwarnings.
A Uhhuh.
Q Didyoubecomeawareatthetimeaboutanyoftheother
wrestlerswhohadtestedpositiveandreceivedwarnings?
A Imayhave.
Q Doyourememberifanyofthewrestlersthatyoubecame
awareofwereWWEchampionsortopWWEstars?
A Idon'tknowwhereyou'regoingwiththiseither,okay?
Oneindividualspecificallycametomeandsuggestedthata
numberofindividualswereverymuchinthesameboatthathewas,
whichpromptedmetomakethephonecalltoDr.Black.
Q Isthisanindividualyou'ddescribeasatoptalent?
A Middleoftheroad.
Q Notachampion,notatopofthecardtalent?
A Middleoftheroad,middlecardtalent.
Q Okay.
Mr.McDevitt.Thiswastalkedaboutyesterdayinthiswhole
timetableiswheneverDr.Andrewscamein,andhehadalistof
theprogramstoaddmedicalexpertise,backup,anyjudgmentsthat
Dr.Blackwasmakingthatthetalentwerenotpresentinga
74
legitimatemedicalscript.Thisistheevolutionoftheprogram.
Mr.Buffone.Justtoclarify,IthinkyoumeantDr.Rayand
notAndrews.
Mr.McDevitt.Dr.Ray.Well,heiswithDr.Andrews's
outfit,andheiscompletelyindependentfromBlack,completely
independentpartyintheevolutionoftheprogram.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q DuringthediscussionwithDr.Blackthatyou'vebeen
describinghere,didyoumentionatanypointthathecouldbe
removed"he"meaningDr.Blackasprogramadministrator?
A That'slaughable.No.
Q Okay.Didyoumentionthattheprogramcouldbemoved
toadifferentlab?
A No.
Q Didyoumentionanyotherrepercussionsthatcould
happenifhedidnotconcurwithyourrecommendations?
A Absolutelynot.
Q Okay.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Isthereaprovisioninthiswellnesspolicythat
specificallyallowedforwarningsinthesecircumstances?
A Idon'tthinkthereisnecessarilyanythingwrittenin
thispolicythatrelatestothat.
Again,IthinkI'vesaidthis,I'llsayitmaybeforthe
seventhoreighthtime:Youhavetobeginsomewhere.Okay?And
75
youneedtomakecertainthateveryonetotallyunderstandsthis
policy.That'sallthiswas,istheevolutionofthispolicy.
Anditcontinuestobeevolvedtothisdayandwillcontinuegoing
forward.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Okay.Well,let'stalkaboutwherewearewiththe
policytoday.Iunderstandthat30wrestlerstestedpositivein
2006and11in2007forsteroidsorillegaldrugs.
Mr.McDevitt.Wheredidthatcomefrom?Isthatfrom
Dr.Black?
Mr.Leviss.It'sfromDr.Black.
Mr.McDevitt.Ifyouwould,justgivehimthereference.
Mr.Leviss.Sure.
Mr.Cohen.ItisExhibit3.
[VinceMcMahonExhibitNo.3
wasmarkedforidentification.]
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q I'msorry.LetmejustidentifyitbeforeIhandit
over,sowehaveitintherecord.I'mhandingyoutwopagesthat
arebasenumberedWWE/OGR942and943.Andtheheadingatthetop
ofbothpagesis"Aegis.""ResponsetoCongressionalLetter
(Section3)."
Mr.McDevitt.I'msorry.Didyouhaveapendingquestion?
Whatwasthequestion?
BYMR.LEVISS:
76
Q Iwassayingthatweunderstandthat30wrestlerstested
positiveforsteroidsorillegaldrugsin2006and11in2007.
A Ifthat'swhatthedocumentsays,that'swhatitsays.
Q Okay.Areyousatisfiedwiththelevelofprogressin
theprogramatthispoint?
A Well,Iwouldliketohavenoonetestingpositive.
Thatwouldbe,Ithink,thegoal,nodifferentthananyoneelse
lookingatthisfromawellnessstandpoint.
Q Okay.Aretherestepsthatyou'retakingorthatyou
haveinmindtochangeorrefinethepolicytogetclosertothat
goal?
A Wow.IthinkI'vestated,now,thiswouldbetheeighth
orninthtimethatthisisanevolutionarypartofourprocess.
Andwetryanddotheverybestwecanwiththis.Wechangedita
numberoftimes.LikeI'vesaid,wearecontemplatingbringingon
anendocrinologist,apossibilityaswellofsomeonewithhead
trauma.Youknow,thereareallkindsofthingsthatwe'redoing.
Sothenatureofthispolicyistodoexactlywhatitwas
designedtodo:theoverallwellnessofourtalent.Let'sface
it,asagoodbusinessman,Idon'twanttalentthatisn'twell.
Theycan'tperform.Theycan'tperformattheirhighestlevel,
andtheywon'tbewithus.So,obviously,Iwanttalenttobe
healthy.NotwithstandingthefactthatIamahumanbeingand
wantotherhumanbeingstobehealthy,asidefromthat,I'magood
businessman.Iwantmytalenthealthy,becauseifthey're
77
healthy,theirclearlongevityismuchgreaterasintellectual
propertytothecompany.
So,yeah,youknow,Iwantthispolicytobeasgoodasit
possiblycanbe.
Q Andthatmeansnoonetestingpositive,ultimately?
A Well,Idon'tthinkyou'reevergoingtogettothat,
youknow,realisticallyspeaking.Butnonetheless,Ithinkthe
closerwecangettothezero,thebetteroffitisgoingtobe.
Q Okay.Thatseemsfair.
A Thatisprettymuchcommonsense.
Q TheAlbanydistrictattorney'sofficeintheSignature
Pharmacycaseidentified11wrestlerswhowereabusingsteroids.
Mr.McDevitt.Hedidn'tusetheword"abusing."Heusedthe
word"purchased."
Mr.Leviss.Theypurchased,excuseme.Thankyou.
Mr.McDevitt.That'sthewordheused.Hewasalittlebit
morepreciseinhisrhetoricthanyouare.
Mr.Leviss.I'mluckythatIhaveyoutohelpmewiththat
precision.
Mr.McDevitt.Youare.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q SotheAlbanyDAintheSignaturePharmacycase
identified11wrestlerswhohadpurchasedsteroidsorhumangrowth
hormoneandwereidentifiedbylawenforcementauthoritiesrather
78
thanbyWWEtesting.
A Right.
Mr.McDevitt.No,no,thatisnottrueeither,andIobject
toyousayingthat.
Mr.Leviss.WeretheyidentifiedbyWWEtesting?
Mr.McDevitt.Well,whydon'tyouestablishafoundationand
hewouldknowthat.Youstateditasafactinyourquestion.
Mr.Leviss.Mr.McMahon,weretheyidentifiedbyWWEtesting
beforethe
Mr.McDevitt.Establishafoundationastowhetherhe'dknow
that,counsel,beforeyouaskhimthequestion.
Mr.Leviss.Mr.McMahon,didWWEtestingidentifythese11
wrestlerspriortotheAlbanyDAidentifying
Mr.McDevitt.Thatdoesnotestablishafoundationof
knowledge.Doyounotknowhowtodothat?
Mr.Leviss.Areyouinstructingyourwitnessnottoanswer
thatquestion?
Mr.McDevitt.No,I'maskingyoutodotherightthingfora
change.Establishthefoundationofknowledgebeforeyouaskthe
witnessthequestion.DidyouaskDr.BlacktheDr.Blackdoes
thetesting.Hedoesn't.
Mr.Leviss.Mr.McDevitt,ifyouhaveavalidobjectionto
myquestion,youmaymakeit.
Mr.McDevitt.You'renotaskingquestions.You'regiving
speeches.
79
Mr.McMahon.Ihavenoideawhatthequestionisnow.
Mr.Leviss.Thequestionis,withrespecttothe11
wrestlerswhomtheAlbanyDA'sofficeidentifiedtoWWEashaving
purchasedsteroidsorhumangrowthhormonefromSignatureLab,had
WWEidentifiedanyofthese11wrestlersasusersunderits
wellnesspolicy?
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouknoweitherway,Vince,whether
Dr.Blackdetectedthedrugsthatthosepeoplepurchasedonthe
drugtest?Doyouknoweitherway?
Mr.McMahon.Well,letmejustgointowhereIthinkyou're
going.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Well,I'dpreferyoustartwithansweringthequestion
thatIasked.
A Idon'tcarewhatyouprefer.I'mgoingtoanswerthe
questionthewayIwanttoanswerthequestion,okay?That'swhat
I'mgoingtodo.
Somyunderstanding,myrecollection,okay,isofthese11
individualsidentifiedbytheAlbanyoutfit,myunderstandingis
that,ofthose11,twoofthosehadsomesortofinfractionwith
thetestingwithDr.Black.Butthatwas
Q Whatdoyoumeanbyinfraction?
A Testedpositiveforsomething.Okay?I'mnotcertain
whetherornotitwasaresultofthisSignaturePharmacythingor
not.Itmayhavebeen;Idon'tknow.
80
ButIthinktheimportantparthereandletmemakeavery
strongobjectiontoCongressmanWaxman'scommentsinthemedia,
whichconcernsmegreatly.CongressWaxmanI'llparaphrase
herebasicallysaidthat,sincetherewere11individualswho
werenowyou'refrowningagainsincetherewere11
individualsthatwereidentifiedbythisAlbanyoutfit,that,in
essence,insomewayI'mparaphrasingitprovesthattheWWE
wellnesspolicyisfullofcrap.
Mr.Cohen.Ineedtostatefortherecordthatthatisnot
whatCongressmanWaxmansaidinthatarticle.
Mr.McMahon.Well,then,yougoread
Mr.McDevitt.Hedidn'tsayfullofcrap,buthesaidit
didn'twork.
Mr.McMahon.Isaidparaphrasing.
Mr.Cohen.CongressmanWaxmancriticizedthepolicyinlight
ofthose11wrestlersbeingcaughtbylawenforcementratherthan
theWWEpolicy.
Mr.McMahon.AndIwouldsuggest
Mr.McDevitt.Hesaidmorethanthat.
Yeah,goahead.
Mr.McMahon.AndI'mtakinggreatoffensetothat,because
itsaystome,basically,thatthisissortofawitchhuntkind
oflikething.Youguysalreadyhavetheanswersbeforeyoueven
askmethequestions.IfCongressWaxmansaysthatwithouteven
havingtheopportunityofmetositdownhere,andotherpeople,
81
Dr.Blackorwhatever,Ithinkthatisstupid,okay?Thatis
outandoutstupid.
AndIresentthefactthat,youknow,someonewouldfryusin
thecourtofpublicopinionwithouthavingtheknowledgeofthe
knowledgeyou'renowgoingtogivehimbaseduponmytestimony,as
wellasothersinthecompany.Sowe'vealreadybeenfriedinthe
courtofpublicopinionbyCongressWaxman'scomments,andI
objecttothat.
Because,quitefrankly,asfarastestingisconcerned,I
wouldsuggestCongressWaxmanwouldlookatMarionJones,whohas
goldmedalsandthingsofthatnatureandthevaultedOlympictype
testing,andsomehowshenevertestedpositiveforanythingand
hasallthesegoldmedals.Andshejustadmittedthatshetook
performanceenhancingdrugs.Somanycaseslikethat.
Andthisinstance,asitrelatestotheseinfractions,there
areanumberofthingsgoingonhere.One,thereisnoproof,
quitefrankly,thatanyofthesepeopleactuallytookthedrugs
thattheypurchased.Thatisapossibility.Thereareother
possibilitiesaswell.
Sotobasicallystatethat,becauseofthesituationin
Albany,ourprogramisfullofcrap,Ijustthinkthatis
Mr.Cohen.And,fortherecord,CongressWaxmandidnot
statethat.
Mr.McDevitt.Whatwerehisexactwords,Brian?
Mr.Cohen.Idon'thavetheexactwordsinfrontofme,but
82
Icansaywith100percentconfidencethathisexactwordswere
notthattheprogramisfullofcrap.
Mr.McDevitt.Hedidn'tusethewords"fullofcrap."
Mr.Cohen.No,hedidn't.
Mr.McDevitt.That'spejorative.Buthedefinitelystated
itshowedthattheWWEprogramwasafailure.
AndI'dbewillingtobetyouthatCongressmanWaxman,nor
you,noryou,evenknowthedatesoftheSignaturepurchases.I
betyouhaven'tlinedthemupagainstthedrugteststhattheWWE
did.I'llbetyoudidn'tgothroughthemwithDr.Blacktoask
whatthedetectioncycleswere.AndI'llbetyoudidn'tdoany
homeworkatallbeforethatconclusionwasmade.Ibetyoustill
haven't.
Mr.Cohen.Mr.McMahon,youseemeagertoanswerthis
question,soI'llcomeoutandaskit.
Mr.McMahon.Well,again,tome
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Inyouropinion,doesthefactthat11wrestlerswere
suspendedfollowingthefactthattheirnamesweregiventoyouby
lawenforcementratherthanDr.Black,doyoubelievethat
representsafailureofthepolicy?
A Absolutelynot.Asamatteroffact,I'mstilllooking
forthatgoldstar,andthereasonIamisbecausewetookaction.
Youknow,theAlbanypeoplesaid,"Ifwegiveyounamesofpeople
whohavepurchasedfromthisSignaturePharmacy"which,bythe
83
way,isagainstthewellnesspolicy;youcan'tbuystufffrom
Internetpharmacies.Thereitisinblackandwhite.Itdoesn't
meantheyusedit.Itdoesn'tmeanthattheysomeofthem
purchasedthings,frommyunderstandingofhumangrowthhormone,
whichisundetected,okay?Itcan'tbedetectedinanybody's
test,letaloneours.
So,quitefrankly,Iwouldsuggestthatourpolicyisnot
infective,itisextremelyeffective,becausenotonlydidwetell
theAlbanyofficialswewouldtakeaction,onceweweregiven
thesenames,thenextdayIhadthoseindividualsinmyoffice.
Andeveryoneofthem,exceptforoneofthemthatwasnamed,
whichIdidn'tinterview,whichwasincorrectlynamedbythe
Albanypeoplebutasidefromthat,everysingleoneofthem
confessedthattheyhadpurchasedfromtheSignaturePharmacy.
That'saninfraction.Whetherornottheytheseusedthese
drugs,whetherornottheytookhumangrowthhormonewhichis
undetectable,Idon'tknow.
Butonthecontrary,Iwouldsuggesttoyou,certainly,far
morethananyotherprogramand,bytheway,theAlbanypeople
weren'tyouknow,theWWEperformersweren'ttheonlyones
named.Baseballwasnamed.And,again,thatisabigtopicof
today,obviously,yesterday.Noactionwastakenthereby
baseballuntil,youknow,lastweek.
Mr.McDevitt.Theydidn'tdoanything.
Mr.McMahon.That'strue.
84
Mr.McDevitt.Theydidn'tdoanythingforhalfofthem.
Justsowe'reontherecord,theMitchellreportwaswritten
yesterday,wasreleasedyesterday.You'llfindaroundpage238,
comparedtotheWWEresponsewhenwegotacall,wewentupand
talkedtoDavidSoares.ApparentlyMajorLeagueBaseballdidn't
evensendarepresentativeuptheretospeaktothem.Theycite
alltheirsourcesfromthenews.
Theyweretalkedtobythosepeoplebeforewewentupthere
becausetheytoldusthat,andyettheydidn'ttakeanyaction
untilDecember7th,whichwaslastFriday,nodoubtin
anticipationofthereport,anddidnothingforhalfofthose
people.Sowhileyouarefaultingus,youmightwanttotakeinto
accountwhatsportsleaguesdidinresponsetothisinformation.
Mr.Cohen.WehaveMajorLeagueBaseballcominginTuesday.
Mr.McDevitt.WhenyoucompareacorporateresponseI
mean,yourbossfaultedhimforImean,whentheinformation
comestoyou,youcandotwothings.Youcandonothingwithit,
oryoucanactonit.Youcanquestionwhetherthedrugtests
couldhavecaughtitorshouldhavecaughtit,orwhydon'tyou
evergivecreditfor,whentheinformationdoescometosomebody
andthecorporationacts,theygetsomecreditforit,insteadof
nogooddeedgoesunpunishedinthisbusiness.Hedidexactly
whatandifhehadn'thavedoneanything,youwould'vebeen
heresaying,"Whydidn'tyoudoanything?"
BYMR.LEVISS:
85
Q Mr.McMahon,amomentago,yousuggestedthatthe
committeeshouldlookattheOlympicsfor,youknow,theirfailure
todetectMarionJones'ssteroidsabuseuntilsheadmittedtoit.
DoyouthinkthatreflectsafailureoftheOlympictesting
program?
A Certainly,youknow,basedonWaxman'scriteria,itsure
ashellwould.
Q Byyourcriteriadoesit?
A Look,thereisnodrugtest,okay,thereisnopolicy
thatisfoolproof.Noneofthemarefoolproof.Yesalis,whoisa
recognizedexpertfromPennState,quotedTheNewYorkTimes,I
thinkitwasonTuesday,thatthosewhofaildrugtestsare
basicallycarelessorstupid,Ithink,paraphrasing.SoIdon't
thinkthereisanyprogramthatisfoolproof.
However,youknow,CongressWaxmanisandIwouldexpect
anapology,andIamgoingtoaskforone,justfortherecord,
fromCongressmanWaxmanyou'resmilingnowattheconclusion
ofallofthis,because,again,Idon'tthinkanyone,certainly
notsomeonewhoiselected,shouldmakeadeterminationofwhether
ornotapolicyiseffectiveornotwithouthavingallthefacts.
And,again,I'mextremelyproudofourpolicy,very,very
proudofit,asIamproudofourproductandeverythingthatwe
do.SoI'mgoingtoexpectanapologyfromCongressmanandI'm
certainlygoingtoaskforonepublicly.Iwantthatapology.It
isabsolutelyirresponsibleforaCongressmantostatethingsof
86
thatnaturewithouthavingthefacts.
Mr.Leviss.Icanhearthatyou'reupsetaboutthat.
Let'smaybemoveon.
Please,goahead.
BYMS.SAFAVIAN:
Q Mr.McMahon,priortoretainingnewtalentorplacing
themundercontract,doyourequirethemtoundergoanytestsfor
prohibiteddrugs?
A Yes,wedo,aswellascardiactesting.Theyareall
testedcominginnow,andwedon'tevensignthemupuntilthey
pastallofthesetests.
Q Soiftheyweretofailatest,wouldyouchecktosee
whetherornottheyhadalegitimateprescription?Ordoyounot
evenbothertogodownthatroadwiththem?
A Itdependsonwhattheyfailed.Generallyspeaking,if
theyfailedanysortoftest,thereisnoreasontobringthemon.
Imean,thereisaproliferationofprospectivetalentoutthere.
Iftheyfailedanything,whetheritisaheartproblemorwhatever
itmaybe,wewishthemluckandbringinsomebodyelse.So,
rightaway,wetesttalentbeforetheyevensignwithus.
Q Andyoumentionedjustafewminutesagothat,oncethe
11nameswerementionedtoyou,youactuallycalledthemallinto
youroffice.Ithinkyousaid,withtheexceptionofoneperson,
youspokewitheachoneofthem.
Whenyoulearntheresultsandyoulearnthatsomebodyhas
87
failedthetest,doyouspeakwitheachoneofthetalent?
A No,Idon't.Asamatteroffact,Dr.Blacknotifies
ourlegaldepartment,whothennotifiesourTalentRelations,and
actionistakenthere.Ireallyamremoved.
Inthiscase,itwassomewhatdifferent,becausewewere
askedwhetherornotweweregoingtotakeaction.Itreally
didn'tinvolveDr.Blackbecauseitwasn't,youknow,someonewho
hasflunkedatest,inessence.That'swhyIgotthoseguysin
thereandaskedthemindividuallywhetherornot,youknow,is
thiscorrect,didyoubuyfromthisInternetpharmacy?Andsome
ofthemImean,allofthemconfessedthattheyhad.Somesaid
theydidn'ttakethedrugsandthingsofthatnature,butthatis
justtoobadbecauseitisaninfractionofthepolicy.
Sowetookaction.Thenextday,youknow,weflewallof
theseguysinfromtheywereoff,sowhereveritistheir
residenceis,itdidn'tmatter,weflewtheminandhadthat
conversationwiththemandtookaction.
Q AnddidyouinitiatetheactionordidDr.Black,under
thepolicy?
A ThiswasnotDr.Black'spurview,inessence.Ididit
personally.
Dr.Blackwasverymuchinvolvedindiscussionsofwhatwe
weredoing,forsure.
Q Washepresentduringthemeetingyouhad?
A No,hewasn't,no.
88
Q Underthewellnesspolicy,thereareportionsinhere
whereyoutalkaboutwhenthereissubstanceabuseandhowthe
talentshouldgethelpforthat.
A Correct.
Q Andwe'vebeentoldbyMrs.McMahonthatyouallfront
thecostofsuchcounselingortreatment.
A Right.
Q Forinstanceslikethat,doyouhaveconversationswith
talentbeforetheyareabouttoreceivesuchtreatment?
A Me,personally?Probablynot.Youknow,Imay.
Butthetalentunderstandsthisprocess,that,youknow,if
theyitdepends.Iftheyvoluntarilyifsomeonecomesup
andsays,look,I'vegotaproblem,Iwanttovoluntarilygointo
somesortofdrugpreventionprogramorwhatever,then,again,
samething,wewouldfrontthecostofthat.Andthenatthe
conclusionofgraduation,inessence,wewouldthentakeouta
portionofahalfofthecostandasknotask,butdemandthe
talentpaytheotherhalf.
Butit'soveraperiodoftime.AndthereasonIliketodo
itoveraperiodoftimeisthereisadeductthere,sothatit
remindsthattalent,youknow,everytimetheygetapaycheck,
"Oh,that'sright.Iscrewedup.Idon'twanttodothatagain."
That'swhywedoitthatway.Otherwiseyoucouldjusttakeitin
onelumpsum.
Q Sure.AndIwouldalsoliketotrytounderstand,it
89
seemstomethatyouprobablydointeractwithtalentquiteoften.
A Yes.
Q SoIguessI'mtryingtogetafeelforhasthis
happenedorwouldtalentfeelcomfortablecomingtoyouandjust
discussingwithyouthattheyhave,say,asubstanceabuseproblem
orsometypeofother,youknow,medicalconditionorthey're
lookingforsomeassistanceorsomehelp?Doesthetalent,do
theyfeelliketheycancometoyoutodiscusssuchissues?
A I'msuretheydo.Idon'tknow,you'dhavetoaskthose
talentsthatquestion.ButI'vegotprettymuchanopendoor
policytoanybody.
Butasidefromthat,Ithinkthattalentgenerallynowit
woulddependonthetalent.But,generally,Ithinktheywouldgo
throughStephorJohnLaurinaitis,whoworksforSteph.AndI
thinkthatwouldbethewayitwouldgonow.
Mr.Leviss.Wehavebeenatitforabout2hours.Andwhile
Iappreciateyourlevelofstamina,we'regoingtotakeabouta
10minutebreak.
Mr.McMahon.Dowehaveto?Howmuchlongeristhisgoing
togoon?
Mr.Leviss.Partofwhatwe'regoingtofigureoutduring
thatbreakiswhetherthereismaterialinourpreparedquestions
thatmaybewecandispensewith.SoI'dprefertotalktomy
colleagues.
Mr.McMahon.Iunderstand.Youbet.
90
Mr.Leviss.Wecanlimititto5minutes.But,
realistically,everyoneisgoingtotake10minutes,whateverI
say.
Mr.McMahon.Allrighty.Thanks.
[Recess.]
91
RPTSMERCHANT
DCMNBURRELL
[4:08p.m.]
Mr.McDevitt.ThereissomethingIwouldliketonoteonthe
recordaboutsomeotherthingsthatwedidfollowingthemeeting
withSignaturethatyoudon'thaveonrecordbecauseyoudon't
knowhowthecompanyworksandwhodoeswhatandsomeofthose
thingsthatarenotdeliberate,buttheyoperatetocreatesortof
amisleadingimpression.Imean,forexample,oneofthethings
youhadaskedmewashowthepolicycontinuestoevolveandget
better.
IcanuseSignaturetogiveyoufurtherexamplesofhowit
worksintherealworld,nottheivorytowersofpeoplewhowant
tocriticizedrugprogramsbuttrytoimplementthem.Whenyou
getinformationlikeyoudofromSignaturePharmacy,oneofthe
thingswelearnfromlookingatthelistofsubstancesthatwere
beingpurchasedweresomesubstancesthatwedidn'tevenknowwhat
theywere,wedon'tevenknowwhattheyare.Andyouhavetodo
duediligence;whataretheybuying,whatisthis.AndI'msure
DavidBlackwillconfirmthisforyou.AndsowecalledDavid
Blackandsaiddowehaveanyideawhatthissubstanceisorwhy
anybodywouldeventakeit,andyouhavetoinvestigateit.And
youfindwaysthatpeoplearealwaystryingtogetanedgeinthe
drugworld.Theydo.That'spartofwhatyou'retryingto
detect,catchandprevent.Andasaresultofthattherewere
92
othersubstancesthatwenowaddtothebadsubstancelistwhenwe
findoutthattheyaretakingthingsthatcouldhaveadeleterious
effectontheirhealth.Andtherewereamendmentsmadetothe
prohibitedsubstancelistasaresultofwhatwelearnedfrom
goinguptovisitSignaturePharmacy.Wedidn'thaveanyidea
beforeasaresultofconversationsVincehadwithparticular
talent.
That'showthesethingsevolved.Youdon'tgetthatsenseby
thekindofquestionsyouaskbecauseyou'renotreallytryingto
findwhatarethegoodthingsthey'redoing,you'retryingto
criticize.AndIjustwantedtomakethatpartoftherecord.
Mr.Cohen.Anythingelseyouwanttosubmittousandtothe
committeewewillbemorethanhappytoaccept.
Mr.Leviss.Yes.Andifthere'smoreinformationthatyou
wanttoprovideusthatyouthinkwillgiveusamorecomplete
picture,wewelcomethat.Itakeissuewithyour
characterizationshereandelsewheretodayandyesterdayabout
whatitisthecommitteeistryingtodowiththisinvestigation.
Mr.McDevitt.David,I'vebeendoingthisfor27years.I
knowwhenaquestionisadversarialandIknowwhenit'stryingto
findoutfacts.We'renotheretofindoutfacts,we'rehereto
writeareport.Soweunderstandthedynamicofwhat'sgoingon.
Weunderstandthechairman'sprejudgedit,butwe'regoingalong
withitanyway.Solet'sjustcontinue.Ijustwantedtoput
thatontherecord.
93
Mr.Leviss.Jerry,I'msurethatweeachhaveopinionsof
eachother'slawyering,butI'mgoingtoaskyouasacourtesyto
stopcommentingonwhatyouthinkofmyapproachtoday.
Mr.McMahon.Well,letmecommentonit.I'vealreadysaid
Ifinditoffensive.IalreadysaidthatIfind,youknow,that
CongressmanWaxman'spointsofviewhavealreadydeterminedthis
isnotaverygoodpolicy.SoIsuspectthattheonlyreason
you'reheretodayandthereasonI'mheretodayistosubstantiate
thatbecauseyouguysworkforhim.SoIfindthiswholeprocess
tobeoffensiveasopposedtooneintermsofactuallydetermining
thefacts,notwithstandingtheprejudgmentoftheguyyouwork
for.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Ihearyousayingthat,andI'mnotsureIcanconvince
you
A Youcan't.
Q thatthat'snotthecase.Iwillaskyouthat.If
youthinktherearefactsthatweoughttohavethatwillclarify
thissituationorthisinvestigation,pleaseprovidethem.IfI'm
notaskingtherightquestionstogettothefactsthatyouthink
weoughttohave,Iwouldliketohearthem,whetherit'stodayor
insomefollowuptothecommittee.
A Thankyou.
Q You'rewelcome.Thankyou.
Ihaveaquestionaboutonespecificwrestler,ChrisBenoit.
94
Iknowthatthisisasensitivesubject,andI'mtryingtobevery
carefulabouthowthisquestionisframed.Mediareportshave
indicatedthatMr.BenoitmayhavetestedpositiveunderWWE's
testingprogram,testedpositiveforsteroids.Priorto
Mr.Benoit'sdeath,wereyouawareofanypositivetestresults
fromMr.Benoitunderthewellnessprogram?
Mr.McDevitt.Hangononeminute.Iwanttobeclearin
terminology.
Mr.Leviss.Sure.
Mr.McDevitt.Whenyou'reusingthephrase"positive,"David
Blackrunsadrugtest.Itwillshowthepresenceorabsenceofa
drug.Thatispositiveinasenseofitshowsthepresence,but
itisn'tapositivedrugtestresultinthesensethatitisn't
untilheconfirmsthatitwasnotmadeforalegitimatemedical
purpose.SoIjustIdon'twanttohaveaconfusingrecord
here.There'sabigdifferencebetweenthechemicalresultofa
drugtestandtheendconclusionoftheanalysisthatDr.Black
goesthroughtodeterminewhetherornotthiswasforalegitimate
medicalpurpose.Whatweusuallyget,andIthinktherecord
showsyouthis,whatwegetiswhenhegetsdonewiththe
conclusionoftheprocess.Sowhenyousaypositivetest,isthat
thesenseinwhichyoumeanthat?DidDr.BlackevertellVince
ordidVincelearnfromanybodythatDr.Blackdidtellthathe
haddeterminedthatChrisBenoithadapositivedrugtestinthe
sensethathewastakingmedicineforotherthanalegitimate
95
medicalpurpose?DoyouunderstandwhatI'msaying?
Mr.Leviss.Idounderstandyourclarification.Givemea
moment,please.
[Discussionofftherecord.]
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Inthatcaseitbecomestwoquestions.Thefirst
questionis,priortoMr.Benoit'sdeath,wereyouawareofany
positivetestresult,positiveinthesenseofdetectinga
substancethatthetestisusedtoscrutinize?Notaconclusion
aboutwhetherthatsubstancewasmedicallyjustified.Wereyou
awareofanypositivetestresultsthatMr.Benoithadunderthe
wellnessprogrampriortohisdeath?
A Ionlybecomeawareofpositivesoncetheyare
conclusionpositives.AndDr.Blackindependentlymakesthat
determination.That'swhenIamtoldthereisapositive.
Q That'sasamatterofcourseyou'resaying?
A Absolutelyasamatterofcourse,aswellasthe
specificperson.
Q Okay.SospecifictoMr.Benoit.That'swhatIwanted
toknow.PriortoMr.Benoit'sdeath,wereyouawareofany
positivetestresultsasreportedbyDr.Black?
I'msorry,letmejustmakethatlessconfusing.Priorto
Mr.Benoit'sdeath,hadDr.Blackadvisedyouthatanyof
Mr.Benoit'stestresultswerepositiveinDr.Black'sassessment?
A IthinkIjustansweredthatquestion,didn'tI?The
96
onlytimethatIgettestresultsthatarepositiveiswhenDr.
Blackhasconcludedthatthatisapositivetestresult.Inever
gotapositivetestresultonChrisBenoitinanymanner,ifthat
answersyourquestion.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Onefinalquestiononthis.Didyoueverreceive
priortoMr.Benoit'sdeath,didyoueverreceiveanyinformation
indicatingthathehadeverreceivedawarningoramedicaluse
exemptionfortheuseofsteroids?
A No.I'mnotinvolvedinthat,guys.Igettheend
result.Thisisindependent.Dr.Blackadministersit,okay,
independentofme,whichiswhatIstatedoneofthereasonswhyI
believethatthisisthebestpolicywe'veeverhad,andwould
suggestthatbaseballdothesamething,whichtheyhaven't.
97
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Ihaveafewquestionsforyouabouttwoofthe
amendmentstothepolicy.Andmaybeitmakessensetoshowyou
theamendmentsjustsothatyouunderstandwhatI'mtalkingabout.
A Absolutely.
Q I'mgoingtomarktheseasExhibits4and5.Thiscopy
hadahandwrittenmarkbyoneofusfromyesterday.Ijustputa
stickeronit.It'snotpartofthewayyouproducedit.
A Okay.
[McMahonExhibitNos.4and5
weremarkedforidentification.]
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Exhibit4thatImarkedhere,andI'llshowittoyouin
aminute,isthesecondamendmentdatedAugust21,2006toWorld
WrestlingEntertainment,Inc.'s2006substanceabuseanddrug
testingpolicy,datedFebruary27,2006.That'stheWellness
PolicyasIunderstandit.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouwanthimtohavebothofthem,Dave?
Mr.Leviss.Iwasgoingtogivehimboth.Iwasgoingto
letyoureviewthat.I'llidentifyExhibit5aswell.It'sthe
thirdamendment,datedMay16,2007,againtoWorldWrestling
Entertainment,Inc.2006substanceabuseanddrugtestingpolicy
datedFebruary27,2006.
Mr.McMahon.Andwhatdoyouwanttoknowaboutthis?
98
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q AsIunderstandit,thesetwoamendmentsundercertain
circumstancesallowsuspendedwrestlers,oratthetimethatthey
wereineffect,allowedcertainsuspendedwrestlerstoappearon
televisionandinpaypervieweventswithoutpayorwithlimited
pay?
A Okay.
Q Isthatcorrect;ismyunderstandingofitcorrect?
A Yes.
Q Doyouknowhowofteneitherofthesetwosuspension
exemptionswereinvoked?
Mr.McDevitt.Objecttothat.
Mr.McMahon.That'snotanexemption.Whyisthisan
exemption?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Howoftenweretalentsallowedtoappearontelevision
oratpaypervieweventswitheitherlimitedpayorwithoutpay
followingapositivetestresult?
A Itdependsonthetalent.Itdependsonwheretheyare
inastoryline.Forinstance,whenwegottheAlbanyinformation
backwehadoneindividualwhowasachampionandIneededtoget
thatchampionshipbeltoffofthatindividual.Theonlywaytodo
thatistodoitontelevision.Therewassomeoneelsewhowas
involvedinarealhotangle,aswecallit,arealhotissue,
storyline,okay.Ihadtoresolvethat.Thereareanumberof
99
thingslikethat,whichisnotanexemptionunderanysetof
circumstances.We'reHollywood,we'reinshowbusiness,wewrite
scripts.SoIdon'twanttoleavesomethingunwritten.Ifyou're
inthemiddleofastoryline,youneedtoconcludethatas
quicklyaspossible.AndoncewestartedthiswholeWellness
PolicywithDr.BlackIexplainedthattohim;hey,look,someone
maytestpositivehere,butIneedtogetthosetestresultsback
andhaveanumberofdaystobeabletoconcludewhatthatstory
lineis.Sothat'swhatwedid.Thatstillexiststoday.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Thatdoesstillexisttoday?
A Ohyeah,absolutely.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Ithoughtthatthecurrentpolicyisthatawrestler
who'ssuspendedbecauseofapositivetestresultcannotappearon
televisionorpayperview?
A No.Theintenthereistoobviouslypunishthe
performer.Notpunishtheperformer,certainlynotrewardthe
performer.Soyou'resureashecknotrewardingtheperformeror
hischaracterizationbyfurtherputtinghimontelevisionand
havingthatpersonlooklessthanfavorable.Andit'simportant
toconcludeastory.There'snoadvantageifthat'swhere
you'regoing,there'snoadvantagetosomeoneappearingon
televisioneventhoughthey'vetestedpositiveatall.Because
whentheydoappearontelevisionand/orpayperview,thenthey
100
don'tlooktoofavorable.
Q Becausetheylosetheirbelt,isthatwhy?
A Well,yeah.Imeantheywilldo,quote,thehonorsas
wecallit.Youknowyouwillconcludeastoryline.And
generallyspeakinginconcludingastorylineyouknowsomeonewho
hastestedpositiveisnotgoingtothey'renotgoingtofare
well,they'renotgoingtowininthestoryline.Youneedto
concludethat,okay.Anditnormallytakesusaboutaweekto
concludesomeofthosestories.Now,ifyou'renotinvolvedina
storylinethenwedon'tputyouontelevision,period.
Mr.McDevitt.Givemeaminute.
[Discussionofftherecord.]
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q You'vehadachancetospeakwithMr.McDevitt.Is
thereanythingmorethatyouwanttoadd?
A Onlythatthedocumentspeaksforitself.Again,a
situationinwhichthereisaperformerandthestorylineneeds
tobeconcluded.Youknow,Idon'twanttorewardtheindividual
whohasfailedatestofsomekind.Theideaherewiththisnew
amendment,asofNovember1weareannouncingthepositivetest
results,whichwehaven'tdonebefore.Becausethepublicisthen
aware.Asamatteroffact,weevensentoutapressreleasefor
thelasttwowhotestedpositive.Theywerenotinvolvedina
storyline,okay.Theydidnotappearontelevision.Ifinfact,
okay,it'simportantthatsomeonewhotestspositive,whenthey
101
testpositiveweannouncewhichwehaven'trunintothatquite
frankly.Wehaven'trunintothesituation.Andagainthe
programisevolving,guys,okay.You'retryingtodosomesortof
gotchabullshit,okay.Buttheprogramisevolving.
Soquitefranklywehaven'tbeengiventhecircumstancesyet
inwhichsomeonehastestedpositive,weannouncedtothepublic
they'vetestedpositiveandbeenontelevision.Wehaven'thad
thatyet.Soquitefranklytheintentcertainlyisnottoput
themontelevisionandrewardthem.ButIdon'texactlyknowwhat
we'regoingtodoaboutthatifweareconfrontedwiththat.
Becauseitseemstomesomesortofalogicalfashionthatwe
shouldconcludeastoryline.Buttheideaofnotputtingthemon
televisiontorewardthemisimportant,andthat'sinessence,I
believe,whatthisissaying.Butwehaven'tbeenpresentedyet
withthatproblemof,okay,Vince,youannouncedsomeonehas
testedpositive,yetthey'reontelevisiononMondaynight.
Q Doyouhaveanyideahowoftenthesituationwe'vebeen
discussinghasoccurred,thissituationinwhichasuspended
wrestlerappearsontelevisionoronpayperviewwithoutpayor
withlimitedpay?
A Well,areyoureferringtosinceNovember1st?
Q SinceAugust21st.
A SinceAugust21st
Q 2006?
A Ahandful,ahandful.
102
Q Lessthan10doyouthink?
A Yeah.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Togiveyousomecontexthereandtohelpusunderstand,
theAegislabnumbersthatweregiventousshowthatpriorto
our,let'sseethroughJune30,2007therewere15
suspensionstherewere19suspensionsbetweenMarch1,'06and
June30,2007.Ofthose19what'syourbestestimateofthe
numberthatappearedinevents?
A Idon'tknow.Iwouldn'timagineitwouldbemanyat
all.Iwouldsayaboutfive.Again,noteverybody,youknow,
obviouslyisinvolvedinastoryline.
Idon'tknowwherethehellyouguysaregoingwiththisline
ofthinking,Ireallydon't.Youknow,I'mnotrewardinganyone.
Idon'tknowwhereyou'regoingwiththat.I'mresolvinganissue
ontelevision,andI'mdoingitveryquickly.I'mdoingitas
quicklyaswepossiblycan.Whensomeonetestedpositive,I'll
takeactionthenatthenextTVsoIcanresolvethatissue.If
infact,forinstance,wrestlerAtestspositiveandhewas
supposedtomeetwrestlerBoverhere,thenIneedtoresolvethat
sothatwrestlerA,whohassomesortofinfraction,doesn't
appearhisbest.Ineedtoeradicatethat,changethestoryline,
okay.
Andagainwe'redifferentthananybodyelse.We'renota
sport,emphasize,okay.It'snotlikebaseballorwhateverelse
103
itmaybeandyou'renotplaying,you'reoutfor14gamesor
whateveritmightbe.Thisisentertainment.Wearesodifferent
thansport.Weareentertainment.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Togiveussomecontexttohowthisishandled,ifyou
haveachampionwho,notsomeonewhotestspositiveforadrug,
butlet'ssayachampionpaintinghishousefallsoffaladderand
breakshisarm,howwouldyouhandlethatinthestoryline?
A Ifhebrokehisarm?
Q Yes.
A Inalllikelihooditwouldbeuptothetalent,but
inalllikelihoodtherewouldbesomesortofstoryabouthim
breakinghisarm,orsomeoneelse.Youknow,probablyhis
adversarybrokehisarm,butyethe'sgoingtobegallantenough
togooutthereanddefendhistalent.Hewouldtriponsomething
andlosehischampionshipifhebrokehisarm.Thatwould
probablybelogical.
Q Woulditbepossibletoincorporatethefactthata
wrestlertestspositiveandthenissuspendedintoastoryline?
A Woulditbepossible?
Q Yes.Couldyoutakecareoftheproblemthatway?
A Well,firstandforemost,intheentertainmentbusiness
Iguessanythingispossible.Butifyouhaveanumberof
suspensionsthathappentobeontelevision,Idon'tthinkIcan
comeupwiththesamestorylineforeachandeveryoneofthem.
104
Andquitefranklyforyoutoaskmeorsuggesttomewhatwedoin
ourbusiness,youknow,intermsofcreativeisabsurd.
Q I'mnotsuggesting.I'mtryingtounderstandwhatthe
possibilitiesareonthecreativeendofyourbusiness.
A Right.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q AfterNovember1st,likepriortoNovember1st,howdo
youannouncepositivetests?Youmentionedthat
A Wehaven'tannouncedanypositivetestpriorto
November1st.
Q Igotthesensefromyouranswerthatasof
November1st
Mr.McDevitt.AfterNovember.
105
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q IsaidafterNovember1sthowdoyouannouncepositive
tests,what'sthepolicy,what'stheproceduregoingtobe?
A Well,itmaychange.Theprocedurerightnowisthatwe
issueapressreleaseandwealsoputitonourInternetsite.
Mr.Leviss.That'sallwehaveontheamendments.Jennifer?
Ben?
Ms.Safavian.No,thankyou.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q TherehavebeenIguessoverthepastcoupleofyears
therehavebeenpublishedreportsorarticlessuggestingthat
fatalityratesforindividualswhoareorhavebeenprofessional
wrestlersareabovethenorm,whatwouldbeexpectedcomparing
professionalwrestlingtoprofessionalsports.AndIunderstand
it'snotasport.ButI'mexplainingtoyouwhatsomeofthese
reportshavesuggested.Andbywayofbackground,therewasa
March2004storyinUSATodaywiththeheadlineHighDeathRate
LingersBehindFunFacadeofProWrestling.Andinthestorythey
identified65formerprofessionalwrestlerswhohaddiedearly
between1997and2004.
Mr.McDevitt.Didtheyidentifythembyname?
Mr.Cohen.Theydidnot.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q AreyoufamiliarwiththestorythatI'mdescribing?
106
A Generally.
Q Thejournalist,awrestlingjournalist,DaveMeltzer,in
aJuly2007piececompiled
Mr.McDevitt.That'sanoxymoron.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q alistof60orover60formerprofessionalwrestlers
whoinhisassessmenthaddiedearly.Areyoufamiliarwith
A I'mnotfamiliarwithanythingDaveMeltzerwrites.
He'sagossipcolumnist.Idon'treadwhathehastowrite.Like
Isay,he'sadirtmonger.Thereareanumberofthose.Wecall
themdirtsheetsandtheyhaveverylittlecredibility.
BYMR.COHEN:
Q Whataboutsomeofhisworkreceivedcoverageina
numberofothermoremainstreamoutlets,forexample,Sports
Illustrated.IbelieveFrankDeforddidastoryontheMeltzer
numbers.Areyoufamiliarwiththat?
A Look,I'veborrowedoneofFrankDeford'sshoesone
night.Hedoesn'tlikeme.
Q Areyoufamiliarwithhisstory?
A No.OtherthanFrankDefordwrotesomethingderogatory.
But,youknow,hehasnosenseofhumorandhedoesn'tlikeme.
WewerebowlingonenightandIborrowedoneofhisshoesandhe
neverfoundit.Andsohehadtowalkhomeinabowlingshoeand
oneofhisothers,andhewasupsetaboutthatIunderstand.
Mr.Leviss.I'mgoingtohavetonotethatwouldbe
107
upsettingtoo.
Mr.O'Neil.Nowweknowtherestofthestory.
Mr.McDevitt.You'rehearingsomethingforthefirsttime,
too.Ineverheardthatone.
Mr.McMahon.Well,actuallyIalsoborrowedoneofhis
wife'sshoes,too.
Mr.McDevitt.That'sawholedifferentstory.
Mr.McMahon.Ileftthatpartout.
Mr.Leviss.Itakeitshewasnotyoursize.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q AreyoufamiliarwiththebookWrestlingBabylonbyIrv
Muchnick?
A Ineverreadit,butI'mfamiliarwithit.
Q Iunderstandthathepublishedalistof89former
professionalwrestlerswhoagainhecontendedhaddiedearly.
Haveyouheardofthat?
Mr.McDevitt.Ithinkthat'stheonehehadacoupleof
peopleonthelisttwice.
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.McDevitt.That'stheonehehadacoupleofpeopleon
thelisttwice.
Mr.Leviss.I'msorry?
Mr.McDevitt.That'stheonethathasthesamepeopleonthe
listtwice.That'sthequalityofhisjournalism.
Mr.Leviss.Okay.
108
Mr.McMahon.Whereareyougoingwiththis?Cuttothe
chase,willyou,please?
Mr.McDevitt.Whatdoyouwanttodowiththeselists?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Beforeyouwantedtoknowbeforeyourespondedtoan
opinion,youwantedtoknowwhereitwascomingfrom,andI'm
tryingtogiveyouanunderstandingofthat.Iwouldliketoknow
howyourespondtopublications,writersorauthorswhocontend
thatprofessionalwrestlersandformerprofessionalwrestlershave
anincreasedchanceofdyingearly.What'syouropinionofthat,
what'syourresponse?
A Myresponsetothatisifit'sonewrestlerit'sonetoo
many.
Q Okay.
A Okay.
Q ArethesehavetherebeenanydiscussionswithinWWE
managementabouthavingthecompanydetermineforitselfwhether
thisisanissuetoconsider,anissueworthpursuing?
A Well,letmejustsaythis,thatasacompanyyoucan't
verywelldictatetosomeonehowtheybehave.UltimatelyIthink
weareallashumanbeingsresponsibleforourownbehavior.The
onlythingweasacompanycandototryandhelpformer
performersistowhatwehavedoneistosayifanyoneyouknow
andnotjustthosethathaveworkedwithWWE,whichIthink
therearefiveoutofthelist,butcertainlyaminoritytosay
109
theleast,butnotjustthose.Whatwehavedoneyouknowisfrom
amagnanimousgestureisthatwehaveextendedtoanyonewhohas
everbeeninaringhereintheUnitedStatesorinNorthAmerica,
Ibelieve,thatifyouhaveaproblemasaresultofyour
lifestylethatyoucontinuedorpickeduporwhateverthecasemay
be,ifyouhaveaproblemthatrequiresintervention,aproblem
thatrequiresyougoingtoschool,inessencesomesortofadrug
program,wewouldpaynotjusthalfofit,aswedoforperformers
currentlyundercontract,wewouldpayforallofit.Thatis
unfortunatelytheonlythingthatwecando.Idon'tliketoread
aboutthesedeathsatall.Andsomeofthesepeoplewhohave
overdosedandthingsofthatnaturehavebeenfriendsofmine.
It'supsettingoneveryconceivablefront.Soasanot
necessarilyaresponsible,butIthinkIwouldliketothrowin
responsibleaswell,corporatememberofsociety,notwithstanding
againthefactI'mahumanbeing,Idon'tknowanythingelsewe
candootherthantoextendthatserviceorwhatevertosomeone
whomayhaveaproblem.
Q Doyouthinkthatprofessionalwrestlersandformer
professionalwrestlersfaceanyincreasedriskofprematuredeath
ascomparedtootherentertainers?
Mr.McDevitt.Howcouldherenderanopinionlikethat,
seriously?Doyouhaveanyideathekindofworkyouwouldhave
todotodrawameaningfulconclusionscientificallyaboutthat?
Mr.Leviss.Ihaven'taskedyouforascientificormedical
110
conclusion.I'maskingyouforyourpersonalopinion.
Mr.McDevitt.Itdoesn'tmeananythingunlessit'sthatkind
ofopinion.What'sthepointofthatkindofopinion,really?
He'shereasafactwitness.Ifyoulookatyouknowwhat'sso
unfairaboutthis,Dave.Iwouldassumeyouguysarenottrying
tobeunfair.TherearepeopleonthislistVince,for
example,haveyoueverheardofJavierHernandezinMexicoCity?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouhaveanyknowledgeofwhythatman
died?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.McDevitt.DoyouknowhaveyoueverheardofScott
"Hog"Irwin?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouhaveanyknowledgeofhowthatman
died?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.McDevitt.Imean,godownthislistlikethat.Now,I
coulddothesametoyouasyoucoulddotohim.Youhavenomore
ideawhythatmandiedthanhedoes.Andyetyouexpecthimto
haveanopinionaboutwhetherthisissomehowrelatedto
professionalwrestling.Mostofthesepeoplenevertouchedthe
WWEinanyway,andyetyouexpecthimtohaveopinionsonthat.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Doyouthinkit'sanissueworthyofyourtimeornot?
111
A Whatisanissue?
Q Whetherornotformerorcurrentprofessionalwrestlers
faceanincreasedriskofprematuredeaththanotherentertainers.
A Iwouldsuggesttoyouthatwearecertainlyconcerned
withourcurrentperformersundercontract,andthat'swhywehave
ourWellnessPolicy.Thosewhoarenotundercontracttous,
thosewhowereatonetimeandlongnotbeenundercontract,you
know,Idon'tbelieveourcompanyhasanyresponsibilityfortheir
behavior.Ithinkultimatelytheindividualsthemselvesare
responsiblefortheirindividualbehavior.Soagainasa
magnanimousgestureallwecandoisreachouttosomeofthose
formerguysandthepeopleIdon'tevenknowonthatlistand
don'tevenknowwhytheydied,peoplelikethat,toreachoutto
thathaveputonapairoftightsandcalledthemselvesa
professionalwrestler.Sothat'sallIcandoissay,hey,ifyou
haveaproblemwewouldbehappytohelpyouandpayforallof
it.Intermsofthingsofthepast,Ican'tcontrolthepast,
guys.Nobodycancontrolthepast.Thepastiswhatitis.What
Iamconcernedwith,however,isthepresent,whichiswhywehave
thisWellnessPolicy,tomakecertainthatourtalent,while
they'reundercontracttous,havegoodhabitsandcanperformat
theirhighestlevelandbewell.Thattomeismyresponsibility,
andIdon'ttakeitlightly.Ican'tbeheldresponsiblefor
deathsthathavenothingtodowithme.Iwon'tacceptthat.
Q Whatledyoutomake,youthecompany,tomakethe
112
magnanimousgestureofofferingcounselingservicestocurrentor
formeremployeesorcontractors?
A Twowords.Publicrelations.That'sit.Idonotfeel
anysenseofresponsibilityforanyoneofwhatevertheirageis
whohaspassedalongandhasbadhabitsandoverdosesfordrugs.
Sorry,Idon'tfeelanyresponsibilityforthat.Nonetheless,
that'swhywe'redoingit.Itisamagnanimousgesture.
Q Mr.McMahon,we'realmostfinishedtoday.Ihavea
finalsetofquestionstoaskthatwe'vegivencareful
considerationto.We'vegivencarefulconsiderationtoallof
thesequestions.
A Ihopeyouhave.
Q Butthatinparticular,becausewhileit'sashortset
ofquestionsthey'remorepersonalthansomeoftheother
questionswe'vebeenaskingtoday.Andwerecognizethatyoumay
notwanttoanswerthesequestions.Butwefeel,webelievethat
they'reimportantandrelevanttothisinvestigation,andthat's
whyI'mgoingtoaskthem.Weunderstandthatyou'vechosento
cometothisinterviewvoluntarily,thatyou'renothereunder
compulsion.Noonecanrequireyoutostayoranswerany
particularquestion.
Mr.McDevitt.What'sthequestion?
Mr.McMahon.Let'sgettothequestion,guys.
Mr.Leviss.ButIhopeyoudounderstandthatwedoconsider
thesetobeimportantquestionsandIhopeyou'llanswerthem.
113
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q It'smyunderstandingthatyouplayadualroleinWWE
asbothanexecutiveandseparatelyasWWEtalent?
A Yes.
Q Isthatcorrect?
WhatkindofrolesdoesyourcharacterMr.McMahonplay?
A Basicallyhe'saheel,abadguy.
Q Doesheeverwrestle?
A Onoccasion.
Q Howoften?
Mr.McDevitt.Whydon'tyouaskhimthequestion?
Mr.McMahon.Twiceayear.
Mr.McDevitt.Whydon'tyouaskhimthequestionyouwantto
askhim?
Mr.Leviss.We'regettingtothat.
Mr.McDevitt.No,you'renot,you'replaying.Weallknow
thequestionyouwanttoaskhim.Askhimthequestion.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q InyourroleasWWEtalentareyousubjecttothe
provisionsoftheWellnessPolicy?
A LetmeanswerwhereIthinkyou'regoing.Idonot
test.I'm62yearsold.TheWellnessPolicyisapolicydesigned
fortalentthat'sregularlyscheduledtocompete,whichImay
wrestleacoupletimesayear.Andnotonlynotregularly
scheduled,at62I'mnotexactlya24yearoldguyofwhichwe're
114
concernedforhiswellness.SoIdon'tfallinthecategory.
Q Soyou'renotsubjecttothetermsoftheWellness
Policy?
A No.
Q Andareyousubjecttotesting?
A IfI'mnotintheWellnessPolicy,thenI'mnotsubject
totesting,asIsaidbefore.I'mnotaregularlyscheduled
performer.InadditiontothatI'm62yearsold,not26.Andthe
WellnessPolicyisdesignedforthoseyoungcompetitorswho
competeonaregularbasis.
Q IstheWellnessPolicy
A I'mingoodhealthat62.
Q Itappearsthatyouare.IstheWellnessPolicyage
limitedbyitsownterms?
A Idon'tbelieveso,no.
Q HaveyoueverbeentestedundertheWellnessPolicy?
A No.
Q Haveyoueverbeentestedforsteroidsbyanyother
authorities?
A No.
Q Inyourtrial,inthetrialofDr.GeorgeZahorian,you
admittedtohavingusedsteroidsonatleastoneoccasion.
Mr.McDevitt.That'sfalse.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Youdidn'tadmittousingsteroids?
115
Mr.McDevitt.Hedidn'teventestifyinhistrial.He
didn'thavetotestifyinhistrial.Wewhippedthegovernment's
assin19dayswithoutputtingawitnesson.Getyourfacts
right.Hedidn'ttestifyinthetrial.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Isittruethatyourlawyerinthattrial,Ms.Laura
Brevetti,submittedthatyouhadreceivedsteroidsfromDr.
Zahorianforpersonaluse?
A Ibelieveso.
Mr.McDevitt.Adifferentquestion.Bytheway,doyoumean
totellme,Brian,thiswasyourlistofquestionsandthiswasso
importantthathehadtoprefaceallhiscommentsaboutthiswith
howimportantthiswasforthecommitteetoaskthesequestions,
yetit'snotonthatlist?AndI'msupposedtobelievethisis
allingoodfaith,huh?Youdidn'tthinkthosequestionsthathe
nowhasprefacedwassoimportanthewasgoingtoaskisnotso
importanttoputonthere?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Youdidadmittohaving
Mr.McDevitt.Waitaminute.Hasthisjustcomeupafter
this,Brian?
Mr.Cohen.Itdid.
Mr.McDevitt.Youlosteverybitofcredibilityyoueverhad
withmewiththatanswer,becauseIknowbetter.
Mr.Cohen.Itoldyouthatoveraweekago,oneweekbefore
116
theinterview.AndIindicatedatthetimethattheremaybe
otherissues.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouhaveanyotherquestions?
Mr.Leviss.Ido.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Severalwitnessesthathavecontactedthecommitteeas
partoftheinvestigationhavesharedtheirperceptionthatyou
maybeusingsteroidsorotherperformanceenhancingdrugs.
Mr.McDevitt.Fine.Doyouhaveanotherquestion?We're
notcommentingonthat.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Severalwitnesseshavesharedtheirperceptionofthat
andtheyhavetoldusthatintheirviewthisperceptionweakens
theWellnessPolicybecauseitcreatesasensethatsteroidusein
theWWEistolerated.Mr.McMahon,haveyouusedsteroidssince
1996?
Mr.McDevitt.Stop.Doyouhaveanyotherquestions?Do
youhaveanyotherquestions?
Mr.Leviss.Soyou'reinstructinghimnottoanswer.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouhaveanyotherquestions?
Mr.Leviss.Ido.
Mr.McDevitt.Idon'thavetoinstructhim.Theseare
voluntarily.
Mr.Leviss.Sure.
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouhaveanyotherquestions?
117
Mr.Leviss.Ido.
Mr.McDevitt.Whatarethey?
Mr.Leviss.Ishenotgoingtoanswerthatquestion?
Mr.McDevitt.I'mnotgoingtoallowyoutoharassthisman.
Howisthatpertinenttoanythingaboutwhetherthiswellness
programworks?Andyoucameinheretodayprofessingyouhavean
openmindandyou'retellingmethatyoudidn'thavethisinmind
whenyouwrotethislist?Bullshit.
Mr.Leviss.Ijustfinishedtellingyouthatthereare
witnesseswhohaveexpressedtothecommitteetheirperception
Mr.McDevitt.Idon'tcareaboutwhatyourunnamedwitnesses
havesaidaboutyourperception.Youcantakethemanddowith
themwhatyouwant.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Mr.McMahon,haveyouusedhumangrowthhormonesince
1996?
Mr.McDevitt.Doyouchoosetoanswerthosequestionsto
thesepeople,Vince?
Mr.McMahon.No.
Mr.McDevitt.Younowhaveyouranswer.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q You'rechoosingnottoanswerthequestionorareyou
saying,no,youhavenotusedit?
A I'mchoosingnottoanswerthequestion.
Q Haveyouusedanyotherperformanceenhancingdrugs
118
since1996?
A I'mrefusingtoanswerthequestion.
Q Itwasn'tcleartomeonthesteroidquestionwhether
Mr.McDevitt.Well,toobadifitwasn'tclear.Doyouhave
anyotherquestions?
Ms.Safavian.Wehavenotaskedfornamesofanyindividuals
inthisinvestigation.
Mr.McDevitt.No,notoneperson.
Ms.Safavian.Andwhatyou'redoingisIguesstryingtoget
aname.Iactuallydothinkthisisperhapsaninappropriateline
ofquestioning.
Mr.Leviss.Iappreciateyourviewonit,butwevettedthis
lineofquestions
Ms.Safavian.Withwho?
Mr.Leviss.andwebelievethatthisis.
Mr.McDevitt.Youvettedthislineofquestioningbutit
didn'tmakeitonthelist?
Ms.Safavian.Iwasn'tawareofit.
Mr.Leviss.Iunderstandthatyouobjecttoitbutthis
question,thislineofquestionsisalineofquestionsthat's
importanttous.
Mr.McDevitt.Whovettedthislineofquestioning?When?
Mr.Cohen.Itwasvettedinthecommittee.
Mr.McDevitt.Wasitpriortosendingthislist,Brian?
Mr.Despres.No,itwasnotvettedpriortosendingthat
119
list.
Mr.McDevitt.Anythingelse?
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Iwouldlikeittobeclear.Iaskedwhetheryou've
usedsteroidssince1996,andI'mnotclearwhetheryou're
choosingnottoanswerthatquestionornot?
A I'mnotansweringyourquestion.
Mr.Leviss.Okay.Thankyou.Anythingelse?Doyouhave
anythingelse?
Ms.Safavian.No,wedonot.
BYMR.LEVISS:
Q Okay.Thankyouforyourtime.Doyouhaveanything
else?
A Whoa,whoa,whoa.Youhaven'taskedmeokay.Again,
whatIwouldliketostatehereisthatthiscompanyputssmiles
onpeople'sfacesallovertheworld.Wedoitinaresponsible
manner.We'reapubliccompanyontheNewYorkStockExchange.
Wehavelotsoffun,bytheway,doingwhatwedo.It'sa
wonderfulcompany.Itentertainsmillionsofpeople.I'mvery
proudofourcompany.I'mveryproudofthewellnesspolicies
throughtheyearsthatweputintoplace,veryproudofeverything
thatwe'vedonetomakethisasaferenvironmentandtoenhance
theperformanceofallaroundperformersandtocreateabetter
product,whichwedoeveryconceivableday,trytocreateabetter
product.Ifeelasthoughthatthishasbeenacompletewitch
120
hunt,andIfeelasthoughdespitewhatyousaidearlier,Ithink
thereisnoquestioninmymind.Hopefullywhenthepublicreads
thisreporttheywillkeepinmind,andasbestaspossibleIwill
remindthemaswell,notthatitwillmatter,andasthemedia
goesthey'reonlygoingtowanttoprintwhattheywanttoprint.
ButIwillstateonceagainthatwhenthechairmanofthiswhole
thing,Waxman,determineswithoutanytestimonyheretodaythat
thiswellnessprogramisfullofcrap,mywordsnothis,that's
whathemeans,thenwecanonlyexpectyouguys,theminionswho
workforhim,mayonlyexpectthenthatyouwritesomesortof
reportthatsubstantiateshispointofview.AndagainIfindit
irresponsibleforaCongressmantostatesomethinglikethatprior
toallofthistestimony,totallyirresponsible.
Sofortherecord,Iamcertainthatwhateveritis,despite
allthewonderfulthingsthatwe'vedone,thatnooneelseinthe
historyofthisbusinesshaseverdone,despiteallofthat,
you'reheretoinsomewayattackus,wheninfacttheWellness
Policyisaverygoodpolicy,it'sonethathasevolvedandwill
continuetoevolveregardlessofwhatyouguyshavetosay.It
didn'ttakeanactofCongress,didn'ttakeWaxman,didn'ttake
themedia,didn'ttakeanybodyalongthoselinestotelluswhat
weshoulddofromaresponsiblestandpoint.We'vehadthreeof
theseprogramsthatweputintoplacevoluntarily.We're
concernedwhereourperformersareconcernedandgoodbusiness
people,bytheway,andwanttodogoodbusiness.Itdidn'ttake
121
anyofthatcraplikebaseballoranythingelse.Noonehadto
telluswhattodo.Wedidwhatwedidbecauseitwastheright
thingtodoforourbusiness.
Sotherearesomanyotherreallygoodthingswhichwe'lltry
togiveyouintermsofinformationyoudon'thavethatare
positives.Allofthishasbeenanattackonthecompany,allof
thishasbeenextraordinarilynegativetoday.Almosteverybitof
ithasbeenlet'stryandgetchaandit'sbeennegative,negative,
negative.
SoagainI'mnotexpectinganything,norshouldthepublic
expectanythingotherthansomesortofscathingreportfromyour
committeechairedbytheguywhoalreadyprejudgedus,Waxman.We
can'texpectanything,norcanthepublicexpectanythingother
thansomethingthat'srottencomingoutofthiscommittee.
AndIwanttosaythatfortherecord.Andthat'sallI've
gottosay.Haveaniceday.
Mr.Leviss.IthankyouforcominginandIthankyoufor
yourtime.
[Whereupon,at4:54p.m.,theinterviewwasconcluded.]
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CertificateofDeponent/Interviewee
Ihavereadtheforegoing____pages,whichcontainthe
correcttranscriptoftheanswersmadebymetothequestions
thereinrecorded.
_____________________________
WitnessName