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U.S. Senate,
Washington, DC.
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presiding.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
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ACCOMPANIED BY:
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Senator Domenici:
Good afternoon.
to order.
Today, the subcommittee will take testimony on the Fiscal
Administration.
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testimony today.
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$8.6 billion.
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Department of Energy.
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testing.
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Fiscal Year 2005 budget has slipped the target date for ignition
billion with another $4 billion that will be spent over the life
of the program.
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validates design feasibility and need and does not force the
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we are authorizing and what we are not doing and what we are not
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authorizing.
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this.
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of money.
The
A successful report
I want it explained
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That new security requirements, that these new ones are driving
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report that was required in the 2004 Energy and Water Bill.
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year.
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been done.
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I need not spend any more time; you had better answer it,
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proposed in 2005 for the Mesa Facility at Sandia and the CMR
stockpile work.
Shortfalls of a serious
the OMB what to do but some of this, you know, we are not going
to do what you ask us just because OMB let you, we are going to
do what we think and not let you do some of the things that they
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statement ad lib now, that everything that I can now read about
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breakthroughs.
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The Office of
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and his staff for the [word missing/?] DoE played in disarming
Khan.
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negotiations.
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issues.
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1998.
Senator
U.S.
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might have been more severe than this, and the Russians came to
the table.
have had anything to do with it, until they get this one done.
plutonium.
I appreciate
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nuclear power.
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space reactors.
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it went where it did is that you have more expertise than they
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PREPARED STATEMENT
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Senator Reid.
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Senator Reid:
well.
Senator Domenici:
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Thank you.
It did.
Senator Reid:
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think you have been candid with me and I have tried to be with
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you.
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program.
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forward.
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attend during this budget cycle, that they would not love to
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entity that has been treated better than yours that I have seen
already have.
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I do not know of an
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you have secured a commitment from the Majority Leader and the
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hope so.
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I certainly
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to say that project would not have gone forward but for Senator
Domenici.
project go forward.
involvement in this.
But Senator
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there have been some problems in the latest snafu, and I think
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are going to have to look there for some of the money to take
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We know
NIF has a
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programs.
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Last
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here.
basis with your plans and intentions for all these programs.
Concepts Program last year, the one that seemed to indicate that
you the benefit of the doubt that you are not encouraging your
I am willing to give
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initiatives.
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placeholder.
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appropriate path.
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I am
This is a large
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been here for nearly 2 months and we still have no sign of the
We
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decision-making.
how many people over at the White House or NSA need to read it,
write a bill that fences off every dollar above current year
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that this is not you personally holding this up and you need not
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comment on that.
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who comes here and says to us privately, well, Im not the one
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very much.
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PREPARED STATEMENT
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work on.
We have
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Senator Reid:
Without objection.
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Senator Bennett:
the 1960s, and Utahans were not only let down by their
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government.
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school and taken out to the schoolyard to stand in the open air
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and look for the flash of the above-ground test and then watch
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from the Nevada testing site has been well documented and
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Congress has taken actions with it and I will not review all of
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that past.
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of this.
people who will be down-wind from any test that will occur, and
that would include not only everybody in the United States but
given the jet stream and the way we now understand the weather
I, as
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here as the Senator for Utah I want to make it clear that I want
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were involved in the things that were done back in the 1950s
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and 1960s when the government lied to its citizens in that part
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So while I speak
PREPARED STATEMENT
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But that means that we must be even more circumspect and more
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I hope we will have more than one round so that I will have time
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and you need some more, we would turn the committee over to you
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statement, Senator?
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Senator Feinstein:
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Senator Domenici:
you.
Senator Bennett:
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Senator Feinstein:
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Senator Domenici:
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I hate to tell
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you.
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Go ahead.
Thank you very much.
We want to be brief.
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He
weapons.
before us and said in vague 2003 that the Robust Nuclear Earth
then, if you look to follow the money, I think you see that it
[$/?]27 1/2 million for the Earth Penetrator, the [$/?]9 million
for the so-called Low-Yield Weapons, and the $30 million for the
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Modern Pit Facilities to make 450 new pits, which as you know we
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Revised Stockpile Plan has not yet been presented to the best of
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my knowledge.
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budget plan includes $485 million for the Robust Nuclear Earth
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doubts on the contention that this is just a study and that all
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And
And the
And this
PREPARED STATEMENT
I think by seeking to develop new nuclear weapons, and as
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nuclear weapons.
And by
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Senator Domenici:
singular or multiple.
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into this a little more and ask whether we can actually ask our
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say they cannot study them even if they fall right before their
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face.
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researching them.
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to proceed.
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And so we will go
I want to
thank the members for their support for our national security
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efforts.
follow me and talk about the Naval Reactors portion which I will
not cover.
the Fiscal Year 2005 request totals just over $9 billion, which
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necessary.
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nuclear testing.
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confidence.
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For
That will
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ballistic missile W76, the B61 bomb and the W80 cruise missile.
laser beams.
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new machines, one this year, one next year, which will be the
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We have two
In contrast, theres a
These two
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complex.
support them.
Facility.
stockpile.
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of any kind.
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decay of plutonium.
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opening statements.
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reliability.
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The Presidents
I also
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We are
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coming decade.
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study.
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more detail.
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Id be delighted to
the record?
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Domenici:
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Defense.
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this effort.
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will move beyond the study stage only if the President approves
Presidents option.
study is completed.
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We
The law is
Finally, even if the study shows that its feasible and the
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it, this weapon does not represent a change from our policy of
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deterrence.
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such plans.
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circumstances.
Were
global danger.
The largest
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organized.
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Senator Domenici:
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Ambassador Brooks:
At the
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fuel plants.
a day.
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time well be able to provide the Congress with revised and firm
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cost estimates.
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million.
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equipment.
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the security of the Russian Nuclear Navy and are now focused on
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The
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Weve
Our
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uranium from Romania; were now working with Libya and have
as well.
dirty bombs.
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overseas.
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Senator Domenici:
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Ambassador Brooks:
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charge.
In all this we have strengthened the security of our Nation
and I believe were making the world safer.
Senator Domenici:
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Senator Domenici:
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Ambassador Brooks:
All right.
I want to just mention safety and
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security.
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priority.
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Basis Threat and I believe that we are well on track to meet the
next year.
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PREPARED STATEMENT
Finally, let me just say that our budget is consistent with
And it
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Senator Domenici:
Admiral Bowman:
Senator Domenici:
Admiral?
Yes sir.
Please proceed.
thank you very much for the opportunity to testify, as you said,
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Senator Domenici:
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Admiral Bowman:
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Please do.
And also the normal environmental,
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Many of the
As you know,
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combat operations.
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community.
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terrorism.
powered warships are ready for any and all missions our Nations
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Berlin Wall.
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aircraft carriers.
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Technology Core-TTC.
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submarines.
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one priority is ensuring that the men and women at sea defending
propulsion plants.
to this.
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The
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PREPARED STATEMENT
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last 7 1/2 years, I can assure you that the ongoing support of
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success story.
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power have played a vital role in our Nations defense over the
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past 50 years.
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and forward presence far from home, which places even greater
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is strong, the work is important and the funding needs have been
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Senator Domenici:
truth.
But we really
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been, or better.
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Admiral Bowman:
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Senator Domenici:
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need to testify?
Ambassador Brooks:
All right.
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I have been a
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warhead?
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Ambassador Brooks:
Twenty-eight-point-six million
[dollars/?].
Senator Domenici:
Senator Feinstein:
Senator Domenici:
Four-hundred-and-eighty-four.
Four-hundred-and-eighty-four million
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[dollars/?] that you are going to spend and she says that is why
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she will not vote for it, among the reasons, because that is
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what you are going to spend, that is what you are going to do.
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Ambassador Brooks:
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plan that really meant something, that tried to fit things in.
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And thats important for the Congress; it was also important for
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finish.
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that we were doing and making sure that if the President did
decision.
Senator Domenici:
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And if you put it in as the outside you get beat over the head
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the funding as described to be used that you ask for right now.
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and no more.
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concurrence.
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Ambassador Brooks:
But we have to
If we lose, we
Yes sir.
You do it
law says.
Senator Domenici:
Okay.
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Is it
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accurate to say that NIF is both the largest laser and the most
Dr. Beckner:
Senator Domenici:
When we
Right?
A fair question.
If you do not achieve ignition, the
expensive than the Z Machine, which proved its worth 1 year too
late.
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NIF.
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Dr. Beckner:
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through the year 2010 in the budget that weve submitted, and
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I believe we
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Stewardship.
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Senator Domenici:
Dr. Beckner:
Yes sir.
Senator Domenici:
there.
Dr. Beckner:
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Senator Domenici:
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Yes sir.
But if it does not work it does not
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Senator Domenici:
Dr. Beckner:
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We will use
Stewardship?
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And I dont
Stewardship?
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In
Yes sir.
And would we need 5 or 6 billion dollars
to achieve that?
Dr. Beckner:
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Senator Domenici:
Dr. Beckner:
Senator Domenici:
Ignition.
Yes sir.
So let me go on.
If 2005 budget
specifies that NIF ignition has been delayed until 2014, that
ahead of schedule.
Delaying the
As a result of
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attitude because the costs are very high and the budget is very
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slim.
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lie ahead.
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Dr. Beckner:
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Senator Domenici:
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Dr. Beckner:
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Senator Domenici:
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Dr. Beckner:
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Not to my knowledge.
Is he still doing this job?
Yes he is.
Yes.
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Senator Domenici:
regards.
Thank you.
Dr. Beckner:
Ill do that.
Senator Domenici:
Terrific guy.
He is the Associate
ignition is feasible.
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Dr. Beckner:
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Senator Domenici:
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Dr. Beckner:
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Dr. Beckner:
I believe
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First of all, Ive met with the staff of this committee as well
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changed that plan and weve done it also because weve had some
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So we have
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to do that.
Thats
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Senator Domenici:
Thats my concern.
We certainly
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NIF.
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another day.
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and, you know, I have been with him many times when he was not
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doing the other work or this so, I guess it does not really
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matter.
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the plan.
Senator Domenici:
you know how I feel right now, Dr. Beckner, is that I have been
hoodwinked.
I want to say,
Because I
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And we are going to run around saying that is the best research
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see that coming, they better not be asking me for any money
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Dr. Beckner:
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Senator Domenici:
We
I understand.
I agreed in a very, very highly debated,
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that this was going to reach ignition and that would be the best
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part.
Think of that.
The best
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Dr. Beckner:
Yes sir.
Senator Domenici:
Dr. Beckner:
Senator Domenici:
And we are.
Yes sir.
And nobody is going to stop us from
doing that.
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in your statement but let us go over them again so that they are
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very clear.
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Yes sir.
And testing is not imminent, is that
correct?
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Is that correct?
Thats correct.
You said that there is no anticipation of
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
Is that correct?
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Ambassador Brooks:
Senator Bennett:
Is that correct?
Thats correct.
So the newspaper stories, I think I heard
Ambassador Brooks:
for that one but in any event if there are such stories theyre
not correct.
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Senator Bennett:
So there is no
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Ambassador Brooks:
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No sir.
Or in the future circumstances that you
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Ambassador Brooks:
No sir.
All right.
But I dont want to mislead the
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committee.
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of finding that problem that weve asked for the money to ensure
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We have no reason
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Senator Bennett:
All right.
currently circulating.
copies of it.
not put return addresses on them, they just send them in.
it says, for those that are not familiar with it, This is an
the atmosphere.
I get
Ambassador Brooks:
Yes sir.
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vented.
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site to an area north and west of the site, all within Nevada;
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and 1960s.
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underground tests.
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havent tested for a year, that Doesnt sound like much but in
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the 1970s when we had a very robust test program that was a
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significant step.
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technical corrections.
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We
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Senator Bennett:
We are
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this postcard?
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Ambassador Brooks:
that.
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Ambassador Brooks:
know.
Senator Bennett:
Ambassador Brooks:
Senator Bennett:
Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Yes sir.
last one.
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Couple hundred?
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If
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Ambassador Brooks:
Yes sir.
that.
[The information follows:]
INSERT 51A TO COMECARRY
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Senator Bennett:
Ambassador Brooks:
Senator Bennett:
Ambassador Brooks:
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Yes sir.
I would appreciate it.
It was more than 12 years ago because
Okay.
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is being done outside of the United States that you feel you
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Ambassador Brooks:
But you
We dont
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States.
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making sure that you understand what the laws of physics will
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allow.
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existing stockpile.
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we want to look.
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case.
Theres a secondary
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understand.
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Senator Bennett:
All right.
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of the things you said when you outlined the reasons for looking
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Congress funds.
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attention.
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Clear
Yes sir.
If that is the case, that means, for
Lets assume
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Ambassador Brooks:
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mean.
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Senator Bennett:
Okay.
You do not
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
Okay.
But, just to make the comment, that if
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while I was sitting in Congress and say, okay, we have done the
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My view of a
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deterrent and the use of the nuclear stockpile through the Cold
War, is that it is never used unless the other side puts you in
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The
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
Thats correct.
And just for the record, that is how I
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understand that you cannot make that firm statement because you
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Ambassador Brooks:
Senator Bennett:
We have no interest
offer.
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Bennett:
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Senator Domenici:
Yes sir.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Senator.
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long you are going to stick around but I have some different
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turn.
Senator?
Senator Feinstein:
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phase 6.3?
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Ambassador Brooks:
6.3.
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your permission.
Senator Feinstein:
from Congress?
Ambassador Brooks:
Yes maam.
Senator Feinstein:
know for the record, how much will be spent up to that point.
weapons?
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Ambassador Brooks:
Senator.
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Senator Feinstein:
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Ambassador Brooks:
Do you remember?
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Is it [$/?]9 million
a year?
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Senator Feinstein:
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Dr. Beckner:
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Senator Feinstein:
Okay.
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pit facilities.
Ambassador Brooks:
record as well?
Yes maam.
Senator Feinstein:
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Okay.
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correct?
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Ambassador Brooks:
Is that
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Senator Feinstein:
Ambassador Brooks:
I mean.
Senator Feinstein:
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line-item funding.
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record.
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That unambiguously
If youre asking a
Senator Feinstein:
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programs.
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Ambassador Brooks:
All right.
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Now, we have
Senator Domenici:
Senator Feinstein:
Senator Domenici:
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to make pits.
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Senator Feinstein:
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Senator Domenici:
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Senator Feinstein:
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Senator Domenici:
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Senator Feinstein:
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stock, right.
Senator Domenici:
Yes.
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and add them up, the public assumes that they are in some way
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related so that all this money that were spending for the Pit
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I mean, you are out there thinking about how many more years can
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Ambassador Brooks:
Thats correct.
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Senator Feinstein:
always.
huge.
Senator Domenici:
Senator Feinstein:
Correct.
Ambassador Brooks:
Senator Feinstein:
Of course, please.
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Ambassador Brooks:
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its very hard for me to see, based on what we know, that were
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you not to look at the upper limit of what were analyzing under
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program.
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explain why now but it would be easier if youd let me send you
So I would urge
I could
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a paper.
Senator Feinstein:
For somebody
like me, when you use 450, you send a major signal that a whole
clothing.
At 125, it may be a
I think
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I mean, I do
Let me ask you this: is there any known way, from a physics
14
point of view, because I have spent some time now, with Dr.
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Ambassador Brooks:
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that.
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The issue that we have is, there are facilities in the world
weapons.
spend some money to find out if this country can have that
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All right.
We think we ought to
But you
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Ambassador Brooks:
Thats correct.
13
Senator Feinstein:
14
get to get down deep enough let alone have the sufficient casing
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Ambassador Brooks:
Yes maam.
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Senator Feinstein:
19
option?
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this?
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Senator Domenici:
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Senator Feinstein:
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Senator Domenici:
25
is, I have heard you here and I do not think you are for
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Senator Feinstein:
Do you want to
Do you want us
Senator Domenici:
Senator Feinstein:
Yes.
That cites seven nations against whom
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for that.
13
Senator Domenici:
14
Senator Feinstein:
I am not
I understand.
Therefore, when we are going to spend a
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Senator Domenici:
Why are we
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And I do not know today how many we have but down from many
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have got to get rid of all of our nuclear weapons in the event
there.
7
8
9
Senator Feinstein:
They are
10
pollute the world more than the weapons we have is not a valid
11
argument.
12
pollution argument.
13
Senator Feinstein:
14
Bennett made a very interesting point, and the point was one of
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if you think about the option, how would a President ever, ever
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And a nuclear
A
And
So
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Ambassador Brooks:
Senator Feinstein:
Of course.
Ambassador Brooks:
But
bursts in the air to hold that at risk than it does if you can
So it is quite
But the more
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deterrents, Senator.
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nuclear weapons.
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suggest any country that anybody would make any plans, I would
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simply point out that the popular countries to talk about lately
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It is the case,
So we need to be able
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conventionally.
policy cost?
10
accept the view that its only worth spending this money if
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using it casually.
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14
contentious at the time, that we did during the Cold War, for an
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Senator Feinstein:
the time.
I appreciate
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Senator Domenici:
19
Senator Feinstein:
You what?
I profoundly differ.
I think morally,
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Ambassador Brooks:
I really do.
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and I think to have only the ability to destroy cities and kill
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Senator Domenici:
Let us proceed.
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need them and that we could prove that nobody else would ever
rid of them.
But I am profoundly
I wish we could
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our arsenal.
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You
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never, never.
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Right?
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Ambassador Brooks:
Yes sir.
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Senator Domenici:
policy.
I would have never been against the MOX but I mean, the
think you would not agree that his reasons were right.
The
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11
That is a tough
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Ambassador Brooks:
13
Senator Domenici:
14
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around.
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that I do not like the idea of the Los Alamos schools being
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long time.
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period of time.
24
elsewhere but just say this year they do not get funded and so
25
you did not put it in the budget, you know I have to find it
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1
somewhere so I will.
let us get started finding out how do we solve this problem, not
moving ahead?
Dr. Beckner:
Yes sir.
10
Ambassador Brooks:
11
Senator Domenici:
12
Dr. Beckner:
14
Senator Domenici:
Yes sir.
Dr. Beckner:
17
Senator Domenici:
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Yes sir.
Will not take the place of what we
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price?
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performance?
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Yes sir.
No sir.
that.
Senator Domenici:
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Senator Domenici:
Mr. Longsworth:
Senator Domenici:
6
7
Yes, I have.
Are you receiving adequate international
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Senator Domenici:
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Ambassador Brooks:
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Russia is risky.
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Senator Domenici:
Okay.
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Ambassador Brooks:
Yes sir.
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Senator Domenici:
We added $5
6
7
8
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Mr. Longsworth:
Yes sir.
Yes sir.
12
out of Libya.
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that would, if we had not been invited back, would have left
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fairly large shipment which has just arrived back in the United
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back to Russia.
We removed
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enriched fuel.
Senator Domenici:
2
3
Good.
other questions?
Senator Feinstein:
When we
Mr. Longsworth:
The
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Senator Feinstein:
13
Mr. Longsworth:
14
Senator Feinstein:
15
Mr. Longsworth:
16
Senator Feinstein:
17
Senator Domenici:
18
Senator Feinstein:
19
Senator Domenici:
20
came.
Yes maam.
So nothing in this goes for that?
Thank you.
21
Senator Feinstein:
22
Senator Domenici:
23
Senator Feinstein:
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Senator Domenici:
25
That is in another?
Thank you.
We will have another big fight, huh?
Oh, I welcome it.
The thing is, we get a second round,
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Senator Feinstein:
Senator Domenici:
lose--
If they
Senator Feinstein:
Senator Domenici:
terrible shape.
Ambassador Brooks:
10
Senator Domenici:
Yes sir.
Mr. Ambassador, I noted in the opening
11
12
that the Department of Defense and Energy have not produced the
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Ambassador Brooks:
20
Senator Domenici:
21
Ambassador Brooks:
22
Senator Domenici:
23
Ambassador Brooks:
24
Senator Domenici:
25
Ambassador Brooks:
Yes sir.
Should have been done.
Yes sir.
Will it be done?
Yes sir.
When?
I dont know.
Priorities
So, Mr.
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Senator Domenici:
Ambassador Brooks:
3
4
5
6
Okay.
Are you
Ambassador Brooks:
It is
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11
will take.
12
Senator Domenici:
Okay.
13
in just a minute.
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this hearing.
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But I have
Mesa Facility and the CMR facilities, and those are needed for
breakthrough.
10
11
12
we can let an institution see and live its day and not do what
13
14
15
complaining to you that your budget will cause a very big delay
16
in providing the facilities that are not there, that you cannot
17
18
are working in, they are not going to make the innovative
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sooner.
24
not.
25
Or we
So I am
And so I think
Ambassador Brooks:
Now,
If
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Senator Domenici:
Okay.
the Chair.]