Hegemony or Survival

Noam Chomsky debates with Washington Post readers

Washington Post, November 26, 2003

In his new book, Hegemony or Survival: Americas Quest for Global Dominance, intellectual
activist Noam Chomsky argues that U.S. policy the militarization of space, the ballistic
missile defense program, unilateralism, the dismantling of international agreements, and the
response to the Iraqi crisis cohere in a drive for hegemony that ultimately threatens our
survival.
Chomsky was online Wednesday, Nov. 26 at 2 p.m. ET, to discuss his book and the risks of
recents trends in American foreign policy.
Chomsky is the author of numerous political works, from American Power and the New
Mandarins in the 1960s to 911 in 2001. A professor of Linguistics and Philosophy at MIT, he
lives outside Boston, Mass.
The transcript follows.
Editors Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online
discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts
can decline to answer questions.
Washington, D.C.: Im asking you this question sincerely: Why dont you direct your hatred of
George Bush toward someone more worthy of such venom, such as Osama bin Laden?
Noam Chomsky: I dont recall having expressed any hatred for George Bush, though I have
quoted people who expressed real fury at what he has done, and even compared him to the
Japanese fascists who bombed Pearl Harbor: historian Arthur Schlesinger in this case. If what
you mean is that I have criticized Bushs policies more than Osamas, thats because I take for
granted, like everyone else, that Osama bin Laden is a murderous thug, who the current
incumbents in Washington should never have supported through the 1980s, and who should be
apprehended and tried for his crimes right now as Ive written and dont see any point
reiterating what 100% of us believe about him. But I am a citizen of the US, and therefore share
responsibility for US government policies, and assume that one of the duties of citizenship is to
live up to that responsibility by criticizing policies one thinks are wrong, for example
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Washington, D.C.: While I may agree with you that the United States is interested in preserving
the dominant paradigms within society (i.e. capitalism, positivism, functionalism), it seems too

simplistic to say that the U.S. foreign policy is unilaterally trying to secure its own hegemonic
status. I believe the recent events are just a phase and most foreign policy analysts (including
the President) know that if we cannot get back on track with international agreements and
foreign cooperation then our own way of life is in jeopardy. Is it always fair to portray the
United States as the rogue hegemony in an integrated world that is constantly trying to balance
global economic and physical security?
Noam Chomsky: I basically agree (though I might differ with you about the nature of the
dominant paradigms), but do not understand why you are directing the question to me. That
the current US administration has declared that it will unilaterally act to secure its hegemonic
status, now and for the indefinite future, is not seriously in question. Thats the way the
National Security Strategy of Sept. 2002 was interpreted at once, e.g., in the major
establishment journal Foreign Affairs. It was not only stated clearly, but accompanied by
exemplary actions to make it clear that the goal was intended seriously. But is this a
permanent commitment? I dont know anyone who believes that. Ive certainly never suggested
it. The reason why I write, speak, and engage in other activism about these matters is to seek
policy changes, which presuppposes that they can be changed, exactly as you assume. I dont
see what issue you are raising.
As for US policies over the past (however long you like), its surely unfair to describe them as
you put it, but I never have, so cant really comment.
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Jamaica, N.Y.: Sir, it is an honor to speak with you today, what is your view on the statement
that since we are the sole superpower, the U.S. has an obligation,not only to itself for
protection, but to the international community to act, even when our allies are unwilling or
unable, case in point Iraq, though the U.S. was never in direct danger, our allies in the Middle
East were. Thank you sir.
Noam Chomsky: The assumption behind your question is that the US is entitled to act in the
name of the international community, to defend their interests. One could debate this question,
but it doesnt seem relevant. Take your example. The US went to war against the objection of
an overwhelming majority of the international community. In the international Gallup polls of
last December, there was hardly a country where support for the USUK unilateral attack
reached 10%. In fact, opposition was entirely without historical precedent. And remains so. How,
in that case, can we even raise the question of the obligation of the US to act in the interests of
the international community? Are we to assume that WE know the interests of others, but they
dont? Im sure you dont mean that.
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Greenbelt, Md.: Regarding proliferation of WMD, nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons
there are over 190 countries in the World.
In your opinion, is every one of these countries entitled to produce (or buy) and stockpile such
weapons?
If so, please explain how such proliferation is in the interest of the U.S. (or the World).
If not, please explain what you consider to be legitimate criteria to separate the haves from
the have nots and how you would envision enforcement of same, given that there is not and
never will be worldwide commonality of opinion on this subject.
Noam Chomsky: Ill assume that by weapons in your question you mean weapons of mass
destruction (WMD).
If so, then I agree with the 1970 nonproliferation treaty, that no country has the right to
produce (etc.) nuclear weapons, and that the current nuclear powers have been obligated since
1970 to make good faith efforts to rid the world of them. As for other WMD, I agree with
international protocols banning them, and believe that they should be enforced. That is why I
have, for example, strongly opposed the steps taken by the Bush administration to undermine
such protocols, some going back to the 1920s, others involving new and extremely hazardous
developments, such as the intention to militarize space, unilaterally, and over the objections of
virtually every other country now extended to the official plan to move on from control of
space to ownership of space, with programs that are a serious threat to human survival.
I think this answers your following questions as well.
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Kabul, Afghanistan: Im an American working in Kabul so Id like your comments that might be
specific to US attempts at nationbuilding here, of which I am a small part. Thanks.
Noam Chomsky: Reminds me of a question that was once posed to Mahatma Gandhi: What do
you think of Western civilization? Hes supposed to have answered: I think it would be a good
idea.
Same here. US attempts at nationbuilding would be a good idea. As you know better than I,
they have been extremely meager. It should also be borne in mind that the US (like the Russians,
and some others, back to Britain) has an obligation to provide Afghanistan not only with aid, but
with reparations. Those who are familiar with the recent history of the current incumbents in
Washington, mostly recycled from the ReaganBush I administrations, will understand why.
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Washington, D.C.: I have been to 50 or so countries in the past three years, and universally
(with those with whom I spoke), Clinton is loved and Bush despised. Yet, the 9/11 bombings,
given their timing, seemed to be a response to America under the Clinton years. Is it realistic to
ask the US to be any more internationalist than we were under Clinton? Was Clinton actually
that awful that we deserved 9/11?
Noam Chomsky: Clinton was far from loved during his tenure in office. His war in Kosovo, for
example, was bitterly condemned over much of the world, even including the most loyal allies,
like Israel. The source of the 911 bombings is complex. I dont think its as straightforward as
you suggest, just as it would wrong to say, simply, that the bombing of the World Trade Center
in 1993 (which came very close to killing tens of thousands of people) was a response to America
in the ReaganBush years. More complex than that. The current reactions you are hearing around
the world are, I suspect, directed to the Bush administration policies of the past 2 years. Bush
clearly succeeded in turning his administration into the most feared and disliked, sometimes
hated, in US history, and very quickly; after 911 there was an enormous wave of worldwide
sympathy for the US, which his policies reversed dramatically, as many commentators have
pointed out, and as is pretty obvious from the evidence before our eyes. I suspect that when you
hear love for Clinton, it may be by comparison. Surely there are large parts of the world
population among whomere that was far from true at the time, and still isnt.
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Washington, D.C.: Is the solution to the worlds current troubles a stronger and more effective
UN? If so, how do we fix it?
Noam Chomsky: I dont think its the solution, but it would be an important step forward, I
think. We can help construct a more independent and effective UN by supporting it rather than
undermining it. Unfortunately, the US has been in the lead in undermining it for many years.
Just to take one measure far from the only one since the UN fell out of control in the 1960s,
with decolonization and reconstruction of the other industrial societies, the US has been far in
the lead in Security Council vetoes on a wide range of issues (even resolutions calling on all
states to observe international law), Britain second, no one else even close. And we should
recognize a truism: the most extreme way to violate a Security Council resolution is to veto it. If
Iraq had the veto, theyd have been in violation of no resolutions, of course. Thats only a small
part of the story, but I think if government policy shifted more towards public opinion on these
matters, the US would shift from a barrier to a stronger and more effective UN to a supporter of
it, and it can go well beyond that. How? It would be hard if we were living in a military
dictatorship or totalitarian state. But in a society with an unusual legacy of freedom and
privilege, we know how to do it: what is missing is will, not means.
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Greenbelt, Md.: I presume (correct me if necessary) that you consider the U.N. to be the
legitimate enforcer of the banning of WMD (since 1970, as you refer to above). When the U.N.
fails to perform such enforcement, do you believe that individual countries must wait until they
are under attack before responding, or are there some circumstances where you would find pre
emption justified against a state accumulating illegal WMD?
Noam Chomsky: The US, like other nuclear powers, is bound by treaty to undertake good faith
efforts to eliminate nuclear weapons, and other protocols apply to other WMD. But international
treaties and agreements have no enforcement mechanism. For lawabiding states, there is a
means to implement banning of WMD: appeal to the Security Council, which has the right to
endorse even the use of force to do so. The Security Council refused to endorse the use of force
in reaction to Iraqs only partial adherence to Security Council resolutions, just as it has refused
to endorse the use of force against other countries that have violated many more Security
Council resolutions than Iraq: Israel, Morocco, Turkey in particular. And these are on serious
issues: aggression, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions (war crimes under US law), and
much else. But without Security Council authorization, it would be a crime for any country to
act on its own to use force as the US did in the case of Iraq. As to when violation of
international law and institutions (and overwhelming world opinion) might be legitimate, its
hard to answer. One can imagine all kinds of hypothetical situations, but Im not familiar with
real ones at least, relevant here.
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Arlington, Va.: If I may play devils advocate for a moment, why do you believe the current U.S.
striving for hegemony (if Im not misrepresenting your view) is a bad thing?
Noam Chomsky: I dont believe it: the current administration declares it, openly and brazenly,
and proceeds with actions to make it clear to the world that it means what it says. So I join
virtually every commentator in believing that they do mean what they say. Is it a good thing? Its
not for you and me to decide. We both know that in the case I presume you have in mind the
invasion of Iraq there was overwhelming popular opposition worldwide, with few if any
historical precedents. So the world apparently thought it was a bad thing, overwhelmingly. If
you check international Gallup polls at the time when the Bush administration was initiating its
bombing of Aghanistan, youll find that there was also overwhelming opposition to that, most
dramatically in Latin America, which has some experience with Washingtons insistence on
hegemony by use of force. We can, if we like, decide that the world is just wrong, and we know
best. Thats not without precedent either, but I dont like the company, and I doubt that you
do. But to go back to the beginning: it is not for you and me to decide whether we should
unilaterally resort to violence at will.
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Richmond, Va.: I can only presume that you read the competition. What are your thoughts on
Christopher Hitchens arguments for war in his newest book?
Noam Chomsky: I dont think it would be fair to comment on this or any other book (or article)
without going into specifics. No one who even tries to be serious would, in my opinion, criticize
some writings without giving explicit quotes and references. I cant even think of that here, so
cannot comment. If you want a general reaction, I did not find it at all convincing.
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Washington: What can you tell us about your new book? Certainly, youve written a great deal
about U.S. foreign policy already; how does the new book add to your thinking?
Noam Chomsky: The new book is mostly about events more recent than those Ive written about
before, and when it returns to earlier events, it is either using new material that has appeared
or doing so to place current developments in the historical context in which I think we can
properly understand them. I dont quite know what you mean about adding to my thinking. If
you are asking whether it represents some fundamental change of perspective and interpretation
of how the world works including the US, but as made clear there and elsewhere, power
systems generally, way back in history then the answer is that it doesnt. But I cant think of
very many, if any, books that would mean that condition.
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Greenbelt, Md.: Would you support the idea of a standing military, under U.N. control, whose
job would be to enforce worldwide treaties banning WMD?
Noam Chomsky: I dont think anyone supports this. It would require that the proposed standing
military eliminate WMD from those countries that have the overwhelming majority of them and
are rapidly developing more, primarily the US, secondarily the other nuclear powers, including
those that have not signed the nonproliferation treaty, like Israel and Pakistan. I dont think
anyone would propose that, but that is what your suggestion amounts to, if taken seriously.
_______________________
Gothenburg, Sweden: You have said that the institutions in the US needs to be changed. Which
institutions do you have in mind and how do they need to be changed?
Do you think something will happen soon on this front? I am asking because a recent survey
suggested that a majority of the American people are in favour of changes in the political
system, so it seems to have mainstream appeal.
Noam Chomsky: Not just the US, but everywhere. There is no place in the world that does not
have structures of authority and domination that are (in my view) illegitimate, and that should

be dismantled in the interests of creating a more free and just society. Furthermore, I expect
that to be true forever; its part of the human condition.
Beyond that, we have to turn to specifics. Take the most powerful institutions in the world:
great powers and corporations. I think they are fundamentally illegitimate, and should be placed
under democratic control. And Im including the states here democratic control is
substantially form, not substance, when there are vast internal inequities of wealth and power.
The leading American social philosopher of the last century, John Dewey, as American as apple
pie, was not wrong when he described politics as the shadow cast over society by big business,
and when he discussed the reasons for that. And we should, I think, go far beyond what he said.
But now we are moving into a domain that requires serious thought and discussion.
As for the population, its a complicated matter. An overwhelming majority feel that the
political system does not respond to their interests, and that elections are some kind of game
among the powerful in which they scarcely participate, except maybe formally. And opposition
to corporate power is also farreaching. Whether this will translate into substantial popular
movements to bring about change as in past history of the US and others, and elsewhere in the
world today there isnt much point speculating. For people concerned about the matters, the
question is one of action, not speculation about what we cannot know.
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Jamaica, N.Y.: If not the United States, who should pick up the gauntlet and lead the world?
There will always be a country that is above the rest. Should it not be the United States, we do
encurage democracy and the freedom to earn an equal wage, it is not like Ancient Rome, or
Germany, we DO promote freedom.
Noam Chomsky: No one should do so, in my opinion. The world is far better off with power
diffused. I think thats true internal to societies as well. I wish it were true that US power was
used to encourage democracy and the freedom to earn an equal wage and to promote
freedom. Im afraid that belief will not stand up to investigation. Ive explained why in detail
in print, including current books, as have innumerable others, but cant try to elaborate here.
But even if it were true, I would reject the premise, just as I would reject the internal analogue.
If some power system within the US claimed the right to lead the country, wed all oppose it,
and rightly, no matter what they professed.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: Youre generally known as a critic of American foreign policy, but can you
identify any elements of U.S. policy that you have found praiseworthy, either under the current
president or the past few administrations?

Noam Chomsky: There are innumerable examples. Im in favor of significant foreign aid, for
example, including the pittance that now exists (the worst record in the industrial world). But
think it should go far beyond. I think its perfectly reasonable even to use force, though under
quite narrow conditions: in selfdefense, maybe in some other cases, though strong arguments
have to be given. There were elements of the Alliance for Progress that seemed to me
worthwhile, though unfortunately they were overwhelmed by others. And we could go on and
on. But I should say that I dont think its the right question, about the US or anyone else. Our
role, as citizens of a free society, is not to give grades for performance, but to change and
improve what we think is wrong. There will always be plenty of people happy to sing praises to
themselves, and I dont see a lot of point in joining them.
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Greenbelt, Md.: I think the questioner from Arlington, VA implies that there is an argument to
be made that U.S. hegemony could be a good thing and you are being invited to argue the
other side. Why not U.S. hegemony?
Noam Chomsky: I already answered. Maybe you mean something more, but Im not sure what.
The answer was, of course, wholly inadequate. But thats inevitable in this format.
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Hamilton, Ontario, Canada: Dr. Chomsky, regarding the recent furor over the FCCs new
relaxed media ownership regulations, what do you believe caused the massive public backlash
against these changes? Certainly it is abnormal for an issue of this sort to capture such a
magnitude of public attention.
Noam Chomsky: I presume at least hope that the public backlash was a recognition that the
relaxed media ownership rules constitute a serious attack against effective free expression. And
I stress effective. A country can have very high standards of protection for free expression (as
the US has had, at least since the 1960s, probably uniquely in the world) and still have very
limited EFFECTIVE free expression, because of concentration of power over what can reach the
public. The new proposals would reduce effective free expression, certainly the foundation of
any society that pretends to be democratic.
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Stony Brook, N.Y.: What steps might the US to dehegemonize itself, considering that the
most obvious steps away from coercive, unilateral military policy may well reinforce the U.S.s
role as hegemonic politicaleconomic leader?
Noam Chomsky: I dont see why either alternative is necessary. Its possible to support diffusion
of power and control in all domains. Incidentally, in the economic domain US leadership is by no

means so straightforward. For 30 years, the world has been economically tripolar, with three
major centers. Europe is economically on a par with the US, and Northeast Asia is now the most
dynamic economic region in the world, with GDP far beyond the US and far more control over
foreign exchange reserves. But I dont thik the world should be tripolar either. In fact,we
should work to diffuse power much more generally, at home as well. Anyway, I see no principled
contradiction between the alternatives you pose.
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Washington, D.C.: How can you seriously promote the dismantling of great powers and
corporations? Power abhors a vacuum, and unless you want us to turn into a society of small,
independent communes, current great powers or corporations would merely be replaced by
other conceptions of power and corporation. The lessons learned from the failed Soviet
experiment should be evidence enough for the fallacy of this belief.
Noam Chomsky: The Soviet experiment was one of highly concentrated power, from the start,
when Lenin and Trotsky moved quickly to destroy the democratic, socialist, and participatory
elements of the pretakeover period. It remained so. So I dont see the relevance. Could
unaccountable private tyrannies be dismantled and placed under popular control in the US? Ive
never seen an argument to the contrary. There many very specific proposals as to how a more
democratic economy could run: to mention just one example, the proposals of Michael Albert
and Robin Hahnel (together and separately) about participatory economics, which you can find
in many books. And there are plenty of others. Just how far freedom and democracy can go, we
dont know, but I know of no reason to suppose that weve hit some limit.
_______________________
Lyme, Conn.: What role do you believe the United Nations could have in establishing order
amongst nations? Will it ever be possible, and should it ever be possible, that the United Nations
obtain greater powers in settling international disputes? If you do not see the United Nations as a
possible solution, where do you forsee international strife being settled?
Noam Chomsky: Nothing much to add to what I said before.
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Alexandria, Va.: Why did you sign an MIT petition calling for MIT to boycott Israeli investments,
and then give an interview in which you state that you opposed such investment boycotts?
What was or is your position on the proposal by some MIT faculty that MIT should boycott Israeli
investments?
Noam Chomsky: As is well known in Cambridge, of anyone involved, I was the most outspoken
opponent of the petition calling for divestment, and in fact refused to sign until it was

substantially changed, along lines that you can read if you are interested. The divestment part
was reduced to three entirely meaningless words, which had nothing to do with the main thrust
of the petition. I thought that the three meaningless words should also be deleted, but as
everyone concerned with human rights knows, one constantly signs petitions without agreeing
with every single word, just the main thrust, as I do in this cae. I dont know what interview you
are referring to, but there are many before and after in which Ive explained my opinion
about all of this, and it is well known among those who are concerned with these matters, and
has been for years. On your last question, as noted, I was and remain strongly opposed, without
exception at least if I undertand what the question means. How does one boycott Israeli
investments?
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Harrisburg, Pa.: You are very critical of our current politices. If you could change United States
foreign and military policy, what would you make as our primary objectives? Should we have a
role in providing economic assistance that may have mutual benefits and should we engage in
military operations that prevent genocide?
Noam Chomsky: We should surely provide economic assistance that has benefits (I dont know
why mutual enters). And there is no shortage of examples. To take just one, at least 3000
children die every day in Africa from easily preventable diseases, and with funding so slight that
we wouldnt even notice it, we could easily end that catastrophe. As for preventing genocide,
yes, I think it would be legitimate to use force to do so, and I even know of a few cases. In the
postWorld War II period there are two real examples that might qualify: Indias invasion of East
Pakistan and Vietnams invasion of Cambodia. In both cases, the US strenuously opposed the
actions to terminate huge atrocities, and punished India (and particularly Vietnam) for doing so.
I dont know of any cases remotely comparable. If you have Kosovo in mind, Id urge that you
look at the massive Western documentation on the topic, which is quite decisive. You can find
some reviews in books of mine, including the most recent one (Hegemony or Survival), but you
should not take it on faith, but check the original sources, which is not hard.
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Washington, D.C.: Your writings and talks are generally very serious affairs. Do you have a
humorous side? What sorts of things genuinely make you laugh?
Noam Chomsky: Playing with my grandchildren? Lots more. Frankly, I dont like to respond to
personal questions. Im a private person. I dont think its anyones business, apart from friends
and family
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: As a Canadian I sometimes feel as though my nation is crawling

into bed with a known rapist, at the cost of our sovereignty, our identity and our dignity. Is
there any way for Canada to extract itself from its already deep relationship or to resist
becoming further under the fold of our incredibly powerful neighbor to the south? Would
stronger ties with Europe or anyone else be more beneficial in the long run?
Noam Chomsky: I hesitate to give advice to others, but Canada surely has options, including
those you mention. Its not Haiti. As in other cases discussed here, the issue is will, not
opportunity.
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Washington, D.C.: Is the Geneva Plan a step in the right direction? Is there any chance that
public pressure in Israel and among the Palestinians and internationally can create momentum to
for adoption of some variant?
Noam Chomsky: The Geneva accords seem to me a considerable improvement over the informal
Taba negotiations (terminated by the Barak government in January 2001), and they were a very
substantial step forward beyond the impossible Camp David proposals. I think they do present a
very serious basis for negotiation towards a peaceful diplomatic settlement reflecting the
overwhelming international consensus of the past almost 30 years, which Im sorry to say has
been unilaterally blocked by the US. Thats what should concern us, including the current
manifestations of that traditional policy.
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Washington, D.C.: Will you be speaking in Washington, D.C. any time soon?
Noam Chomsky: Not in the near future which for me, means about 2 years unless something
comes up; sometimes happens.
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Los Angeles, Calif.: While you may not want to believe it, the majority of Americans, including
myself, believe that the decisions being made by President Bush regarding Iraq, missile defense,
proactive defense against terrorism, etc. is exactly what we need to defend our country and
values. These are seen as positives, not negatives. In fact, I believe your ideas threaten our
survival.
Noam Chomsky: Interested to hear your views, but since there is no argument, and no question,
cannot go beyond that.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: So do you do linguistics any more, or are you pretty much done with that?

Noam Chomsky: All the time. And as far ahead as I can imagine
_______________________
Silver Spring, Md.: It appears pretty evident that U.S. foreign policy and its imperialistic
dominance over the world has in fact threatened our own survival. U.S. embassy bombings,
international protests, and 9/11 are clearly examples that support your argument. The Bush
administration has supported a military response, which has increased fear and risks of further
attacks against Americans. It would appear obvious that the successful road to securing our
nation would involve reconsideration and revision of current U.S. policies. Which approach
and/or policies would you argue most vital in securing Americans (both civilians and our young
soldiers) from further attacks?
Noam Chomsky: As you know, I basically agree. The general question is too broad to try to
answer. To take just Iraq, I think the answer is pretty straightforward. US policy should adopt
general public opinion. Since April, the majority of Americans have called for the UN to take the
lead in dealing with the effects of the invasion. Theres little doubt that world public opinion
agrees, probably overwhelmingly. What about Iraq? Its hard to judge the opinions of people
under military occupation, but there have been credible polls, mostly USrun or backed. The
most recent show that by about 51, Iraqis regard the USUK forces as an occupying not a
liberating force, and by 53 want them to leave which is remarkable, because even those
strongly opposed to the invasion recognize that in the conditions to which it led, the resulting
security consequences could be catastrophic. The most popular foreign leader by far is French
President Chirac, the very symbol of opposition to the invasion, far above Bush or Blair. Other
polls that I now of are consistent.
If Washington is willing to give up the goal of controlling Iraq, with some democratic forms if
possible, then there is a way out: a pretty straightforward one.
Beyond that, those who are concerned with the safety and security of Americans will, obviously,
seek to understand the source of the threats against them. That means they must reject the
absurd and outlandish idea that to explain is to justify which, Im afraid, one constantly
reads. As to where that inquiry will lead Ive written about what I think, but others have to
figure it out for themselves.
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Wheaton, Md.: It seems that the same parties throughout the world who resent the power and
actions of the U.S. are also the same people who support the complete destruction of Israel and
the brutal treatment of Kurds, Sudanese and other minorities under Arab occupation. Do they
really fear U.S. hegemony, or do they just fear democracy?

Noam Chomsky: I dont agree with that at all. In Europe, for example, there is overwhelming
opposition to US policy, and virtually no support for destruction of Israel. Same is true in most of
the world. As for brutal treatment of Kurds, etc., it would be important to clarify what you
have in mind. In the 1990s, for example, by far the most brutal treatment of Kurds was in
Southeastern Turkey, where millions were driven from their homes and tens of thousands killed,
with every barbaric form of torture and terror you can dream of. These were some of the worst
crimes of the grisly 1990s. The responsibility traced straight back to Washington, which provided
80% of the arms and crucial diplomatic and other support. In the single year 1997, Clinton sent
more arms to Turkey than the combined total for the entire cold war period up to the onset of
the campaign of state terror as it is rightly called by Turkish dissidents, even sometimes by
government ministers. If you mean the Kurds in Iraq, then the US record is quite mixed. Through
the 1980s, when they suffered the worst atrocities at the hands of Saddam Hussein (Halabja, al
Anfal, etc.), Saddam was backed by Washington, including those now in office again or their
immmediate descendants, and that support continued long after his worst crimes against the
Kurds, and long after the war with Iran was over. The official reasons were quite ugly. Later
policies changed, for reasons having to do with power interests, but it remains quite mixed.
E.g., the US (and the rest of the world) has refused to provide badly needed medical assistance
to the victims of the atrocious gas attacks that they basically supported. We can continue with
others.
If you check the record, I think you will find that your assumptions cannot be sustained. I urge
that you look into it.
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San Diego, Calif.: Mr. Chomsky,
Thomas Friedman from the New York Times was on Hardball last night and eluded to an
interesting poll. It was a Pew survey conducted in Brazil that said over 50 percent of Brazilians
were disappointed that the Iraqi military had not put up a better fight against the U.S.
Have we made the world into a David vs. Goliath scenario? And if so, is there a way to play down
the fact that we are the only superpower left, in order to facilitate better relations with the
world? I guess what I am asking is, will it eventually be us against the world?
Why cant we all just get along? Ha ha, right.
Noam Chomsky: I didnt hear him, and havent seen the poll. I suggest that you have a careful
look. Interpreting polls requires considerable care.
However, the reaction would hardly be surprising. There is tremendous resentment of US power
among those who have experienced its use. Few Brazilians, for example, have forgotten events
that we prefer to sweep under the rug: for example, the fact that the last time Brazil had a
mildly populist President, the US supported (in fact, substantially initiated) a military coup that

established a vicious neoNazi National Security State, and continued to support it until it was
overthrown internally. And thats unfortunately a very familiar pattern, as known very well
South of the border. History looks very different from the wrong end of the guns.
What should we do? First, face the past honestly, and understand what we have done and are
doing, and why people have the attitudes they do. Then, if their grievances are legitimate,
devote ourselves to responding to them. As for the present and future, Ive already given some
indication of what I think we should do, and theres a lot more in print.
_______________________
Hamilton, Ontario: Dr. Chomsky, you have said many times that you are almost completely
shunned by the mainstream U.S. media, and yet here you are, participating in an online
discussion at the invitation (I assume) of the Washington Post. How do you explain coverage such
as this when the Propaganda Model predicts virtually nothing of this sort and magnitude
occurring?
Noam Chomsky: This isnt the first time Ive been on this forum, and its not the only one.
There is a radical difference between exposure in the US media and in other similar societies
(the rest of the Englishspeaking world, for example); not only for me, but for anyone who does
not accept our conformist subservience to those in power (Im quoting the distinguished
American scholar Hans Morgenthau, the founder of modern international relations theory,
referring to American intellectuals). Thats worldwide pattern, and goes back to the origins of
recorded history. Ive written about it, including the rare but very important exceptions: there
are countries where the courage and integrity of intellectuals should put us to shame, Turkey for
example, something Ive also written about. I think you are misreading the propaganda model.
It does not suggest in fact, it strongly denies that the US is a totalitarian society where
conformity is rigidly enforced, and we cite plenty of examples to the contrary in the joint book
to which you are referring, and elsewhere.
_______________________
Alexandria, Va.: Some years ago during the Faurisson matter you were quoted in the New York
Times as saying that personally you believed that the Holocaust had occurred.
Are you comfortable stating that the Holocaust occurred without qualifying it with an I belive?
Do you believe that the question of whether or not the Holocaust occurred is one over which
reasonable minds can differ?
Noam Chomsky: I dont recall anything that idiotic in the New York Times, and if there was such
a statement, its slanderous, because it suggests that there is some possibility to the contrary.
Anyone whos looked at what Ive written, since my first published political writings almost 40

years ago, knows that any such suggestion is about on a par with my saying that I read a
statement in the NY Times that you are personally opposed to torture of children.
Im comfortable with saying exactly what I wrote almost 40 years ago, and have often repeated:
the Holocaust was the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history, and we
lose our humanity if we even agree to enter into debate with those who try to deny Nazi crimes.
Of course, every factual statement e.g., that the moon is not made out of green cheese has
an implicit I believe before it. Thats what it means for a statement to be empirical and if
we are serious about it, the conclusions extend even to a large part of mathematics. But thats
utterly irrelevant here.
_______________________
Denver, Colo.: Noam: Ive read your recent statement that the war in Iraq isnt like Vietnam
which was different for historical reasons: but it sure feels like deja vu all over again when I
read the media. Theres exactly the same range of acceptable debate today from the
liberals who say I didnt support the invasion, but were there now and we cant cut and run,
we have to win, to the rightwingers who argue that the invasion was the completely justified
and blame the critics for undermining morale. All these arguments presuppose that we have the
right to invade in the first place and once were there, to remain as long as necessary.
How is this any different from the official debate in the 60s which completely ignored the
position of the antiwar movement, that the war was immoral, not too costly to us, and ought to
be stopped?!
We can confidently expect that once again, the antiwar movement will be blamed this time
for losing Iraq.
Noam Chomsky: The official debate over Vietnam was as you describe: the crucial facts have
never been allowed into the debate: specifically, the fact which should hardly be in doubt
that the US attacked South Vietnam, certainly by 1962, and virtually destroyed it, then
extending the attack to the rest of Indochina. In the case of Iraq, the official debate is much
broader. The invasion was denounced in very harsh terms in the mainstream. Ive already quoted
Arthur Schlesinger, and its easy to elaborate. So the debates are different. But I recognize the
similarities that you point out too, and I think we should attend to them carefully, as you
suggest.
_______________________
Greenfield, Mass.: Do you agree that hegemony abroad ultimately necessitates authoritarianism
at home, and given current trends, is a phase of a new American fascism inevitable or already
existent?
Noam Chomsky: Its not impossible, though I dont think the word necessary is in order in

human affairs generally. You might be interested in a current article by the distinguished
international law specialist Richard Falk on what he calls global fascism.
But we dont have to allow any such thing to happen, here or abroad.
_______________________
Buenos Aires, Argentina: Professor Chomsky, It is an honor to participate in this debate
regarding your thoughts. Many years ago we met through an Argentinean common friend Maria
Fra, who was at the Kennedy School at that time. I do agree with most of your statements
regarding the war on Iraq. But something that for many foreigners as me, who love the US and
your Democracy, frightens us is this new trend towards a limitation to your liberties and freedom
that we can see recently. Including the USA Patriot Act, and other measures taken by your
Administration. I was very much upset with the embarrassing situation occurred at JFK
International when the Chilean Foreign Minister Dr. Soledad Alvear was interrogated when she
went to the General Assembly of the UN in NYC, in open violation of the Vienna Convention on
International Diplomatic Missions. Something similar happened with Cardinal Jorge Mejia, the
Director of the Vatican Archives and Library. If this incidents involved high ranking officials of
States that have diplomatic ties with the USA what can expect simple a tourist who has all their
passports and documents in order according with existing regulations. Furthermore I do have the
idea that these people of the Project for a New American Century are totalitarian, and make me
fear that certain kind of Big Brother; a total Orwellian scenario will be imposed in your
wonderful country. This will mean a decline of all your institutions and the destruction of your
founding fathers legacy. John Adams said the USA should be under the empire of law and not
men, now we see just the opposite.
Noam Chomsky: Thanks for your letter, and regard to our common friend.
You are right to be concerned with these matters, and there are many others like them. Whats
happening in Guantanomy is an utter disgrace. In my recent book Hegemony or Survival, I
quote Winston Churchills thoughts about the methods now being adopted the administration:
that the are odious and the foundation of every totalitarian government, whether Nazi or
Communist (Im not using quotes only because thats from memory, but its virtually exact).
Nevertheless, one should not exaggerate. Whats happening here now is bad enough, but it is
nothing like what has happened in the past, even the quite recent past (most strikingly, the
COINTELPRO operations that went on for 15 years before they were banned by the Courts),or
certainly Wilsons Red Scare. And they are not remotely like what happens in much of the rest of
the world. Ther is a very strong commitment on the part of the public to preserve the legacy of
freedom that was won with hard struggle over centuries it wasnt a gift from above. And
though events of the kind you mention, and much worse ones, do take place, and should be
stopped by an aroused public, the fact is that for those who have even a limited share of

privilege which is a very large majority in a rich country there are freedoms that are
unusual, by world standards. Nothing to be complacent about, but worth keeping in mind.

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