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Topics
(22 Pages)

1 Defeated:
2 Couldn't
3 get Mayo
to
Last Emulsify
Today,
Q&A -- Understanding Stovetop 12:10 PM
A Whiter
Cookware Post your questions here Shade of
Sauce
Today,
eGCI Team 12:03 PM
Artisanal
Posted 07 August 2003 - 01:23 PM cocktail
books?
Please post relevant questions here. Today,
10:40 AM
French
Polynesia
trillium (Tahiti,
Moorea &
Posted 07 August 2003 - 01:44 PM
Bora
Bora)
Great job! But one question....
Today,
What about black porcelain enamel finished cast iron pans? 06:26 AM
They develop a "seasoning" much faster then raw cast iron The high-
and are non-reactive. And they don't need the babying that power
blender
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Q&A -- Understanding Stovetop Cookware - eG Forums 31/05/2010 11:43 ..

and are non-reactive. And they don't need the babying that
the ivory enamel does, you can use them for high heat blender
cooking. topic
Yesterday,
regards, 11:03 PM
trillium

slkinsey
Watched
Posted 07 August 2003 - 01:58 PM Topics

trillium, on Aug 7 2003, 04:44 PM, said: Sign in to see


your watched
What about black porcelain enamel finished cast iron pans? topics.
They develop a "seasoning" much faster then raw cast iron
and are non-reactive. And they don't need the babying that
the ivory enamel does, you can use them for high heat
cooking.

I am not familiar with this. The kind of enamel I was talking


about was the kind used by Le Creuset, et al. I've never heard
of "black porcelain enamel." Who makes it?
Anyway... I am a little dubious at the idea of "seasoning"
enameled cookware.
While on the subject of enameled heavy iron, however, I'd
like to take the opportunity to shill for Staub
(http://www.staubusa.com/product/cocotte_anim.asp) ,
which I think makes very interesting cookware of this type.
Other manufacturers of enameled cast iron, many excellent,
are often lost in the shadows of Le Creuset.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

trillium
Posted 07 August 2003 - 02:48 PM

Le Creuset
(http://www.lecreuset.com/new/productguide_lc3.php?
item_no=242&line=14&parent_id=1) . It's the stuff that is on
their not non-stick black colored finishes for some frying
pans, "woks", "tawas" grill pans and griddles. While the idea
of seasoning an enamel is kind of anti-intuitive I can't think
of a better way to say it. The finish starts out black and matte
and with a slightly rough surface and ends up black and
shiny and smooth. You can get it that way by applying a thin
film of oil and putting it in a low oven a few times. I'm
calling that seasoning. It goes away with harsh detergents or
some seriously high heat over a long period of time. I
thought it was raw cast iron, but they insist it's an enamel

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thought it was raw cast iron, but they insist it's an enamel
finish.
I was just eyeing the Staub at Sur la Table the other day.
Very pretty.
regards,
trillium

mamster
Posted 07 August 2003 - 02:56 PM

I don't have a question, but this was an amazing lecture. Nice


work.
Matthew Amster-Burton, aka "mamster"
Author, Hungry Monkey (http://hungrymonkeybook.com/) ,
coming in May

slkinsey
Posted 07 August 2003 - 02:58 PM

trillium, on Aug 7 2003, 05:48 PM, said:

Le Creuset
(http://www.lecreuset.com/new/productguide_lc3.php?
item_no=242&line=14&parent_id=1) . It's the stuff that is
on their not non-stick black colored finishes for some frying
pans, "woks", "tawas" grill pans and griddles.
Interesting. I see what you're talking about, but I don't seem
to be able to find any literature about it. Fundamentally, I
suppose, it is not all that different from regular enamel --
just maybe a little tougher.

Oh well... I knew I couldn't possibly cover every cookware


design under the sun. I didn't cover soapstone griddles and
stewpots either.

trillium, on Aug 7 2003, 05:48 PM, said:


I was just eyeing the Staub at Sur la Table the other day.
Very pretty.

Cool stuff. What I like about it is the lid with nodules on the
underside to serve as condensation points.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

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fifi
Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:04 PM

From one science geek to another... Absolutely excellent job!


I thoroughy enjoyed this.

Just another interesting tidbit...


My first really good heavy pot a few years ago was the
Calphalon anodized 8 1/2 quart saucier. The size of the pot
(12" dia x 4 1/2" high) looked very versatile to me (and it
proved to be so) and is still one of my favorite pots. In the
literature that came with the pot was some blurb on how
they use a high purity aluminum and have a special method
of spin casting that gives them exceptional thermal
conductivity. Well, being the cynic that I am, I consulted my
heat transfer and metallurgy geek friends and they confirmed
that high purity aluminum can have as much as 30% better
tc that an aluminum alloy. That is because of the grain
boundaries in the alloy are much more extensive than in a
higher purity metal and grain boundaries are a hurdle for
heat. That is what makes stainless a poorer conductor.

The final test was making a dark roux in a pot of this


diameter on a dinky gas range (read... dinky diameter flame).
The bubbling of the roux in the bottom of the pot was
ABSOLUTELY EVEN across the diameter of the pot. I fell in
love. That became my gumbo pot until I got my big
LeCreuset and fell in love with thermal capacity.
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the


excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly
seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

Nick
Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:14 PM

This may not be the place to address this, but I'll ask it
anyway. The gas ranges that I've been looking at (except for
the simmer burner) typically have rather large diameter
burner rings. As I am usually only cooking for myself I tend
to often use smaller pans such as the All-Clad 1 qt. saute, 2
qt. sauce pan, and many 7 1/2" fry pans which are all fairly
small in diameter. So my question is, will these small pots
and pans work with the larger burners?
To add - I've cooked with cast iron for many years, but have
been won over by the All-Clad stainless line. At this point I

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been won over by the All-Clad stainless line. At this point I


think the only advantages of cast iron over All-Clad are in
browning and braising.

Also, in looking at your excellent introduction to all this


(which I haven't fully read) you say,
"Black Steel/Blue Steel
- This is carbon steel that has been treated by a process of
annealing, which makes the surface harder and less reactive.
It also imparts a distinctive black or gunmetal blue color to
the carbon steel.
- Because the surface is harder, black/blue steel seasons
more like cast iron in terms of its durability and persistence.
Because the surface is less reactive, one need not be so
concerned about minimizing opportunities for chemical
interaction between the food and the pan."

Annealing is the process by which the strains and stresses are


taken out of steel after it has been worked, and results in a
soft steel rather than a hard steel. It is typically used to
remove stresses from working high carbon steel prior to
hardening and tempering. It relaxes the steel and improves
the grain structure.
Pans (I would think) are made of low carbon steel and the
reason for annealing would be to remove the working
stresses so that the pan doesn't warp on being heated on the
range.

Edit: I should add for those that aren't familiar with


annealing - the steel is heated to a temperature of 1350-
1500F, maybe higher in the case of low carbon steel, and
kept there for a period of time depending on the size, weight,
and complexity of the piece(s). After that it is allowed to cool
slowly.

This post has been edited by Nick: 07 August 2003 - 04:25


PM

slkinsey
Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:52 PM

Hmm... That's right about the annealing. It does make it


softer. There must be something else that is done to
blue/black steel -- perhaps whatever it is that gives it the
black or blue color -- that makes it harder than mild low
carbon steel. Because it is definitely the case, in my
experience, that black/blue steel pans are harder than
regular carbon steel pans.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

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Fat Guy
Posted 07 August 2003 - 08:18 PM

Sam, may I ask a hypothetical question? Let's say I have


$250, $500, and $750 to spend on a cookware gift for a
newlywed couple -- novice cooks but eager to learn over time
-- moving into a new home and currently in possession of
zero utensils. How might you go about constructing some
basic sets of cookware in those budget ranges? (In reality, I
may be called upon to put together the $500 set on behalf of
a group of friends going in together on a gift, in which case
it's getting wrapped with a link to your lesson.)
Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Executive Director, eGullet Society, sshaw@egstaff.org
(mailto:sshaw@egstaff.org)
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
(http://egullet.org/ethics)
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center
(take my food-blogging course
(http://www.internationalculinarycenter.com/food-
blogging.htm) )
10 ways you can help the Society
(http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?
showtopic=102142)

gsquared
Posted 08 August 2003 - 01:26 AM

Great work, Sam. I bought a new stock pot this morning


using your guidelines - buying this stuff is easy if you know
what to look for!

This post has been edited by gsquared: 08 August 2003 -


01:34 AM
Gerhard Groenewald
www.mesamis.co.za
Wilderness

slkinsey
Posted 08 August 2003 - 07:56 AM

Fat Guy, on Aug 7 2003, 11:18 PM, said:


Sam, may I ask a hypothetical question? Let's say I have

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Sam, may I ask a hypothetical question? Let's say I have


$250, $500, and $750 to spend on a cookware gift for a
newlywed couple -- novice cooks but eager to learn over time
-- moving into a new home and currently in possession of
zero utensils. How might you go about constructing some
basic sets of cookware in those budget ranges? (In reality, I
may be called upon to put together the $500 set on behalf of
a group of friends going in together on a gift, in which case
it's getting wrapped with a link to your lesson.)

Well... a great place to look is Bridge Kitchenware's What


Every Kitchen Needs
(http://bridgekitchenware.com/what.cfm) resource.

For stovetop cookware, they suggest:


- 1.5 qt saucepan
- 3 qt. saucepan
- Large Surface Saute Pan
- Medium Saute Pan
- Omelette Pan
- Steamer Insert
- Medium Covered Casserole
- Large Covered Casserole
- Pasta Pot w/colander
- Non-Stick Fry Pan
- S/S Double Boiler

Personally, I would modify the list to this:


- 1 qt. to 1.5 qt straight gauge saucepan, sauteuse evasee or
curved sauteuse evasee (Amazon has a 1 qt. All-Clad
MasterChef sauteuse evasee -- they call it a saucier -- for 35
bucks)
- 3.5 to 4.5 disk bottom tall saucepan (Bridge Kitchenware
has a 4.5 qt. Paderno Grand Gourmet tall saucepan for 78
bucks)
- 11" disk bottom saute pan (Bridge Kitchenware has an 11"
Sitram Profisserie saute pan for 68 bucks)
- 11" straight gauge fry pan (Cookware and More has a 10"
All-Clad MasterChef fry pan for 60 bucks or a 12" All-Clad
MasterChef fry pan for 70 bucks)
- 11" straight gauge nonstick frypan (Amazon has 11"
Calphalon Commercial nonstick fry pans in occasional sales
as low as 30 bucks)
- 6 qt to 7 qt enameled cast iron casserole (Pans.com has a
6.75 qt Chasseur casserole for 163 bucks)
- 12 qt to 18 qt disk bottom stock pot with pasta insert
(Bridge Kitchenware has a 17.7 Sitram profisserie stock pot
for 117 bucks)

That would comprise a well-equipped battery of stovetop


cookware that I think anyone would consider to be pretty
kickass stuff that will last a lifetime. It is, of course, possible
to get this set (or one similar) for less money if you are good
at looking for things on sale. It is also possible to get even
better by upgrading in a few places: go with Staub enameled
cast iron in 8 quarts for around 220 bucks; go with a Falk
Culinair stainless lined heavy copper sauciere in 1.4 quarts
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Culinair stainless lined heavy copper sauciere in 1.4 quarts


for 100 bucks (75 if you are a first-time customer) and so on.

A large cast iron skillet would compliment any set of


cookware.

This does not include knives and that sort of thing, of course.

Personally, my philosophy is to slowly build up a battery of


fop-flight cookware, acquiring one or two pieces a year as
you start feeling like you need them. A perfectly good starter
set for someone who doesn't have much of anything and
doesn't have much cooking experience would be an 11"
straight gauge curved sauteuse evasee, a 12 quart stock pot
(mostly for pasta, but also works for soups), an 11" nonstick
fry pan, a 2 qt saucepan and a 10" chef's knife. There aren't
too many things you can't make with that collection.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

alacarte
Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:05 AM

Thanks for the lesson.

Can you give some specific instructions for seasoning a cast-


iron pan? I've forked over the bucks for a nice one, tried to
season it, and still ruined it with my first frittata.
Spice & Ice and more (http://karanewman.wordpress.com)

Dave the Cook


Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:10 AM

alacarte, on Aug 8 2003, 12:05 PM, said:

Thanks for the lesson.

Can you give some specific instructions for seasoning a cast-


iron pan? I've forked over the bucks for a nice one, tried to
season it, and still ruined it with my first frittata.

All the advice you can handle, right here


(http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?
act=ST&f=3&t=3722&hl=) .

This post has been edited by Varmint: 02 October 2004 -


06:20 PM

Dave Scantland

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Dave Scantland
Director of operations, eGullet Society for Culinary Arts &
Letters; dscantland@eGstaff.org
(mailto:dscantland@egstaff.com)
eG Ethics signatory (http://egullet.org/ethics)
Ten things you can do to help the Society.
(http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=102142)

Eat more chicken skin.

slkinsey
Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:24 AM

alacarte, on Aug 8 2003, 12:05 PM, said:

Can you give some specific instructions for seasoning a cast-


iron pan? I've forked over the bucks for a nice one, tried to
season it, and still ruined it with my first frittata.

Four things:

1. Cook a lot of high fat products in it. Like bacon. And


sausages. Maybe shallow fry a couple batches of chicken.
This will build up the seasoning, but it does take time. Look
at it this way: it's a great excuse to eat BLTs 3 days a week
for a month.
2. Remember to re-season after every use. This simply means
that after you finish cleaning the pan you put it back on the
heat, drop in a little fat (I like Crisco or lard for this) and use
a paper towel to wipe the fat all over the pan inside and out.

3. Even at its most well-seasoned "nonstick" state, cast iron


is still significantly stickier than teflon and similar surfaces.
As a result, you will need to use a reasonable amount of fat
when cooking notoriously sticky foods like eggs. Even then, it
is common to find a thin film of stuck-on eggs after you
finish scrambling. You can clean this off by scrubbing with
kosher salt or a non-soaped steel scouring pad.

4. Don't make fritatta in a cast iron skillet unless you're


willing to drop in a fairly significant amount of fat to
lubricate the surface.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

alacarte
Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:00 PM

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Quote

4. Don't make fritatta in a cast iron skillet unless you're


willing to drop in a fairly significant amount of fat to
lubricate the surface.

NOW you tell me! (just kidding)

In all seriousness, thanks for the info. I'll be investing in a


new cast-iron pan, and a big bucket of Crisco.
Spice & Ice and more (http://karanewman.wordpress.com)

slkinsey
Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:07 PM

alacarte, on Aug 8 2003, 05:00 PM, said:

In all seriousness, thanks for the info. I'll be investing in a


new cast-iron pan, and a big bucket of Crisco.
Well, before you buy that cast iron pan, as the article says
"what is it you want to do that you can't do with what you
already have?" Maybe cast iron isn't the best choice for your
needs.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

Dave the Cook


Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:14 PM

Um, cast-iron is my pan of choice for frittatas, though I


admit it might not be the best one for everybody.

But I have to ask: how ruined is your pan, alacarte? I find it


hard to believe that a cast-iron pan can be completely
trashed by a few nasty eggs (Bad eggs! Bad!).
Dave Scantland
Director of operations, eGullet Society for Culinary Arts &
Letters; dscantland@eGstaff.org
(mailto:dscantland@egstaff.com)
eG Ethics signatory (http://egullet.org/ethics)
Ten things you can do to help the Society.
(http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=102142)

Eat more chicken skin.

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slkinsey
Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:27 PM

Dave the Cook, on Aug 8 2003, 05:14 PM, said:

Um, cast-iron is my pan of choice for frittatas, though I


admit it might not be the best one for everybody.

I tend to use my 11" stainless-lined heavy copper fry pan.


The low sloped sides makes it easier to slide the frittata out. I
also use a fair amount of oil in the pan and shake the pan a
little once the egg starts to set so it releases from the bottom
of the pan.

Dave the Cook, on Aug 8 2003, 05:14 PM, said:


But I have to ask: how ruined is your pan, alacarte? I find it
hard to believe that a cast-iron pan can be completely
trashed by a few nasty eggs (Bad eggs! Bad!).

Yea. I was kind of wondering this myself. Pretty hard to ruin


a cast iron pan.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

oraklet
Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:27 PM

slkinsey, that was a grrrrrreat lecture!

one question: traditional danish meatballs (and lots of other


things, of course)should be slowly fried on medium heat.
now, if i want to make a lot at a time - and i do, cause we are
6 in the family, and with frequent guests - i'd like to make
them all in one pan. i've been thinking of buying a very large
(sitram) copper-bottom frying pan for such cooking, feeling
that it would serve well for my bolognese or curries, too. as i
read your lecture, this seems to be the right choice. am i right
in thinking so?
christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

slkinsey
Posted 08 August 2003 - 07:06 PM

oraklet, on Aug 8 2003, 05:27 PM, said:

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one question: traditional danish meatballs (and lots of other


things, of course) should be slowly fried on medium heat.
now, if i want to make a lot at a time - and i do, cause we are
6 in the family, and with frequent guests - i'd like to make
them all in one pan. i've been thinking of buying a very large
(sitram) copper-bottom frying pan for such cooking, feeling
that it would serve well for my bolognese or curries, too. as i
read your lecture, this seems to be the right choice. am i right
in thinking so?

OK... when you say "traditional danish meatballs should be


slowly fried on medium heat" I assume you mean that they
need to be fried (as in, fried in hot fat) all in one layer. If this
is the case then you do need a pan with a large cooking
surface, and you are correct that a saut pan might be a good
choice for this. Saut pans have a large cooking surface and
the straight sides will prevent the fat from splattering all over
the place as it might if you used a fry pan. So, there are a few
other considerations:

1. Size -- you should figure out how much room you will
need to cook all these meatballs at the same time. The next
time you make a big batch of meatballs, if might be valuable
to put all the meatballs next to each other in a roughly
circular arrangement on a clean surface (countertop?) and
measure how much room they need. The typical "large saut
pan" has an 11 inch or 30 centimeter diameter. However, this
may not be big enough for you to make the meatballs you
want to make all at the same time, and you may find that you
need to go to a bigger pan.
2. Conductive material -- copper bottoms are nice, but since
you are going to be stuffing the pan as full as it can get with
meatballs and then keeping it at a relatively constant
temperature, thick aluminum might be better. You really
don't need the responsiveness of copper for something like
this, thick aluminum will have a much larger heat capacity
and the heat will be just as even. Also, an aluminum disk
bottom is always less expensive than a comparable copper
disk bottom design. If you do end up figuring out that you
will need an "oversize" diameter pan and have a regular-
strength stove that cannot crank out the heat like a Dynasty
or Viking, you will benefit greatly from the higher heat
capacity of aluminum.
3. While a saut pan might be the best design for frying the
meatballs, I think there are other designs that are more
versatile for your other uses. The sides of a saut pan are
awfully low for making a long-simmered sauce like rag
Bolognese or putting together a curry. For those tasks, you
would ultimately do better with a Casserole, which has sides
that are twice as tall as those on a saut pan in proportion to
the diameter of the cooking pan. So, in the best of all
possible worlds, you would have a saut pan for the metballs
and a Casserole for the rag and curry. However, we don't
live in a perfect world and you may have economic or space-
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live in a perfect world and you may have economic or space-


saving considerations that dictate one pan for both uses. In
this case, I would recommend a Rondeau. It has a large
cooking surface for cooking your meatballs and the sides are
tall enough (around 1/3 the diameter of the pan) to make it a
fairly effective cooking vessel for rag, etc.

So, assuming you want one pan for both tasks, I'd recomend
a Rondeau with a thick aluminum base sized to have the
diameter you need to cook a typical large batch of meatballs
all at once in once layer. Paderno Grand Gourmet
(http://www.bridgekitchenware.com/category.cfm?
Category=276) would be a great example. 7 mm aluminum
bottom, heavy stainless body, comes in a variety of sizes
from 8 inches (20 cm) to 15.75 inches (40 cm). My second
choice would be Sitram Catering
(http://www.bridgekitchenware.com/category.cfm?
Category=253) with a similar range of sizes and 2.5 mm
copper bottoms. Third choice would be a Paderno Grand
Gourmet saut pan
(http://www.bridgekitchenware.com/category.cfm?
Category=278) with a 7 mm aluminum bottom (they tend to
have higher sides than the traditional design). Then a Sitram
Profisserie saut pan
(http://www.bridgekitchenware.com/category.cfm?
Category=265) with a 7 mm aluminum bottom, if you can
find one with a large enough diameter. Last wold be a Sitram
Catering saut pan
(http://www.bridgekitchenware.com/category.cfm?
Category=254) with a 2.5 mm copper bottom.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

oraklet
Posted 09 August 2003 - 04:03 AM

thanks for a detailed and very informative answer. it'll be


aluminium bottom, then. i'm still a little doubtful about the
shape (though not the size). it's my impression that it will be
easier to use a spatula in a frying pan with relatively high
sides, than in a sauteuse. you are of course right about the
ragus etc., though i've become accustomed to using a large
non stick frying pan (which i ruined...). but the rondeau you
linked to sure is a beauty!

i guess my large cast iron skillet is still the best choice for
steak?

er...why is it that one should not "crowd the pan"? i've


experienced that meat may start boiling instead of frying, but
why?
christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

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slkinsey
Posted 09 August 2003 - 08:06 AM

oraklet, on Aug 9 2003, 07:03 AM, said:


i'm still a little doubtful about the shape (though not the
size). it's my impression that it will be easier to use a spatula
in a frying pan with relatively high sides, than in a sauteuse.
You are corrrect that it is easier to get a spatula into a fry
pan. These are the only pans (other than griddles) that are
supposed to be used with spatulas. The whole point of a
saut pan is that you move the food around in the pan by
shaking it back and forth. This is exactly what I do when
making meatballs. If it is important to have more "hands on"
control of turning the meatballs, you should use tongs.

oraklet, on Aug 9 2003, 07:03 AM, said:

i guess my large cast iron skillet is still the best choice for
steak?
Cast iron is definitely a good choice for steaks. The only
thing that I have found to be perhaps a little better is
stainless lined heavy copper (it has right around the same
heat capacity as a cast iron pan at similar thickness, but
conducts heat into the steak much more efficiently to form
the crust). Since the whole point of using cast iron for
something like this is to accumulate as much heat as
possible, one should go for the thickest cast iron possible. I
have always wondered why they didn't manufacture cast iron
skillets with a 5 mm thick base.

Another good option for steaks is a cast iron grill pan, which
allows the fat to drain away from the steak as it cooks. I often
use a preheated cast iron grill pan when I make steaks under
the broiler (the best way to cook steak, IMO).

Since cast iron is cheap, and since heatintg cast iron to the
screaming hot temperatures that are best for steak will
damage the seasoning, it is useful to have a dedicated "high
temperature" unseasoned cast iron pan for this purpose.

oraklet, on Aug 9 2003, 07:03 AM, said:


er...why is it that one should not "crowd the pan"? i've
experienced that meat may start boiling instead of frying, but
why?

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This has to do with the heat capacity of the cookware. Take a


look at one of the "heat bucket" illustrations I used:

See those faucets on the bottom? Every time you put some
food into the pan, a little heat drains out of the heat bucket
and is conducted into the food. This is how the food cooks.
The more food you put in the pan, the more heat is drained
out of the heat bucket. Depending on the conductivity of the
pan and the amount of food you put in there, the heat may
drain out of the pan faster than the burner can put it back in.
The net result of this is that the temperature of the pan goes
down. Now, instead of cooking the food at a high heat, you
are suddenly cooking at low heat. This is why it is important
to have a high heat capacity (although having good
conducvitity means that the heat capacity doesn't need to be
quite as high, as the heat bucket is filled back up relatively
quickly).
When you cook at high temperature, the liquid that is
exuded from the meat boils off and the steam is dispersed
more or less immediately. This provides a crisp exterior and
promotes Maillard reactions. When the heat is lower, the
liquid doesn't boil off very quickly. Also, the more things you
have in the pan, the less efficient the dispersal of steam
becomes. So... when you throw a bunch of food in a pan all at
once, drain the heat bucket and lower the temperature, these
two phenomena can quickly combine to create a situation
where the food gives off a lot of liquid that stays around in
the pan, and before you know it you are poaching the food in
its own juices.

One other thing... sometimes, when the heat is really high


and the pan has really good conductivity, the food can
actually "float" on a tiny layer of its own steam. In this case,
the surface of the food is subjected to extreme high

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the surface of the food is subjected to extreme high


temperatures, but only a relatively small amount of heat is
transferred to the food. The result is a highly browned
surface with a relatively cool interior. If you ever have a
heavy copper pan, you can see this phenomenon at work.
Preheat the pan on the highest heat setting for around 5
minutes, then drop in a teaspoon of water. Rather than
immedlately evaporating as it would on a cast iron skillet, the
drop of water will float around the pan like a hovering
spaceship on a tiny layer of its own steam. It's pretty cool to
see, and I've only ever seen this in heavy copper pans. If
there is interest -- and someone in NYC who can record
digital video volunteers to help -- I'll post a video of what
this looks like.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

oraklet
Posted 09 August 2003 - 03:21 PM

once more, thanks a lot for your elaboration. it's really nice
to recieve answers that do not just tell one to do this or that,
but actually tell one why. by the way, the drop-in-a-hot-pan
phenomenon can be seen on cast iron, too. at least on the
very thickest and heaviest of mine.

heh, one last thing - stainless steel is about as non-non-stick


as it gets, right? so, at least for danish meatballs - which are
rather big - i think one needs a spatula. ?
christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

slkinsey
Posted 09 August 2003 - 07:29 PM

oraklet, on Aug 9 2003, 06:21 PM, said:


heh, one last thing - stainless steel is about as non-non-stick
as it gets, right? so, at least for danish meatballs - which are
rather big - i think one needs a spatula. ?
Not necessarily. If you use enough fat, preheat the pan
enough and shake the pan from time to time to make sure
the protein sets before the meatballs have time to bond with
the cooking surface you should be fine. In general, even on
stainless steel, once the surface is sufficiently browned it will
release from the pan with a shake or two. Where this
becomes a problem is when the food is too delicate to
withstand shaking without being damaged. With meatballs it
shouldn't be a problem.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

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oraklet
Posted 10 August 2003 - 04:11 AM

nice to know. thanx!


christianh@geol.ku.dk. just in case.

fifi
Posted 10 August 2003 - 10:05 AM

One of the hardest things that I have had to learn is to allow


the browning to occur so that it releases from the pan. I have
to really work hard at leaving it alone for long enough. I still
have trouble with that but I am getting better. (One of the
many things I have learned here.)
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"
"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the
excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly
seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

slkinsey
Posted 10 August 2003 - 11:03 AM

fifi, on Aug 10 2003, 01:05 PM, said:

One of the hardest things that I have had to learn is to allow


the browning to occur so that it releases from the pan. I have
to really work hard at leaving it alone for long enough. I still
have trouble with that but I am getting better. (One of the
many things I have learned here.)

I find that, with most things, if you start with high heat and
give the pan a good shake right as you put the meat into the
pan, the protein will set enough in that first second or two to
prevent further sticking.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

tirgoddess
Posted 10 August 2003 - 01:36 PM

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Thanks for the informative lesson. I have a few pieces of


(orange) Descoware (Belgium) from my mother's pan
collection. This cookware is what got me to purchase the Le
Cruset line. What can you tell me about Descoware? Is it
available today? What other similar, maybe less costly
brands, are available? Thanks in advance for your reply!

slkinsey
Posted 10 August 2003 - 01:52 PM

tirgoddess, on Aug 10 2003, 04:36 PM, said:

Thanks for the informative lesson. I have a few pieces of


(orange) Descoware (Belgium) from my mother's pan
collection. This cookware is what got me to purchase the Le
Cruset line. What can you tell me about Descoware? Is it
available today? What other similar, maybe less costly
brands, are available? Thanks in advance for your reply!
AFAIK, Descoware is no longer made. You can, however, get
pretty good deals on it on eBay and places like that.
As for cheap alternatives... this is just an expensive kind of
cookware to make. None of the brands out there are
particularly inexpensive. Chasseur is probably the most
reasonably-priced brand of which I am aware. I believe
Martha Stewart makes enameled cast iron, but I really don't
know much about the quality. You might also call Bridge
Kitchenware (http://www.bridgekitchenware.com/home.cfm)
and ask what kind of prices they have and what line they
carry. I do know that they refuse to carry Le Creuset because
they think it is terribly overpriced (same thing for All-Clad).
That said, the best way to get reasonably priced enameled
cast iron is to pick up a "second" at one of the Le Creuset
Factory Stores (http://www.outletsonline.com/lecreuset/) or
wait until a cookware store is having a sale.

One brief word on price: I know that spending 250 bucks on


an enameled cast iron cocotte or a stainless lined heavy
copper curved sauteuse evase seems like a ton of money.
But these are pieces of cookware that will last a lifetime and
can be handed down to your children or grandchildren as a
family heirloom. When you compare that to the money we
spend without batting an eye on a not-so-great television or
VCR or laptop computer that will be obsolete in 3-4 years, it
really isn't all that much money.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

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