Sky News Australian Agenda

David Speers and panellists Patricia Karvelas,

Malcolm Farr and Peter van Onselen

Sunday, 11 July 2010

Topics: Border protection policy

DAVID SPEERS: With us now we have the Home Affairs Minister, Brendan
O'Connor. Thank you for joining us from Melbourne today.

There's been confusion, as we were discussing earlier, about, well a key element
of Julia Gillard's border protection plan - where this regional processing centre
will go. So a simple question to begin: where's it going to be?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well David on Tuesday the Prime Minister outlined her
vision for border protection and how we're going to deal with irregular arrivals and
how we will deal with the region. And she outlined, I think, a comprehensive
approach forward and that included of course the regional processing centre
proposal and indeed as a result of that, and as a result of conversations she'd
had with the president of East Timor and the Prime Minister of New Zealand, she
said we needed to move forward on this issue.

Now subsequent to that speech on Tuesday, the Prime Minister of East Timor
spoke with the President and charged him with the responsibility of now talking
about the details of a proposed regional centre with Australia. I think that's a step
forward.

The next logical stop of course is for us to start really going through the detail
because a regional processing centre is an important part of a sustainable
regional protection approach to this matter.
DAVID SPEERS: Okay so the preference is East Timor. I can understand that
you have to get East Timor to agree to this but that is your government's
preference, East Timor, clear and simple.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: And the Prime Minister and President of East Timor
have showed a preparedness now to talk about the detail of a proposal and I
think that's an important thing. What we know is of course that the Bali Process,
that was established way back in 2002, and throughout the period of this
government have been talking about the best way to deal with irregular
migration, ensuring that we remove the product that's been sold by people
smugglers, luring people on, in many cases, unseaworthy vessels on perilous
journeys. How do we do that?

Well one key plank of the regional protection approach includes a centre, which
takes away the incentive of people being lured on such dangerous passage and I
think that's a good step forward and we now want to sit down with East Timor,
the East Timorese President, Jose Ramos Horta and work through that
proposition.

PANELLIST: Minister, why East Timor? Why not any number of other countries
including even this country?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well East Timor showed us a preparedness to engage

on this issue. We believe it's important that a centre is in a location that's, and in
a country, that is signatory to the Refugee Convention. We believe it's important
that we remove the incentive that people smugglers have to lure people to a
particular destination. Now the fact that we can intercept vessels and indeed take
those people seeking asylum to a centre takes away, I believe, takes away the
product that's been currently sold by people smugglers in the region…

PANELLIST: But, but in Australia - but can I ask, sorry to interrupt, but Australia
is a signatory to that convention. This is our political problem. We're the richest
nation in the region. What are the reasons, I assume there are some, what are
the reasons why we can't house this regional processing centre?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well we need to make sure that we place it in a location

that's not in those areas where, which are, I guess, defined as destination
countries …

PANELLIST: So because no one wants to go to East Timor, we're going to put it

there …

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: …as a resettlement country, as a resettlement country

and signatory to the convention, along with New Zealand and other countries
around the world, of course we will settle refugees if they're determined to such
by the processes. But it is important that we look at an area that is less likely to
lure people on those very dangerous vessels. And I believe the important thing
here is, Peter, is that we have a conversation now. We engage with the East
Timorese on this issue and they've shown a preparedness to do that because a
key element of a regional protection approach is a regional processing centre. It
does take away, or undermine, the product that's being sold by these people
smugglers.

PANELLIST: Minister, minister, accepting that wisdom, on Friday you said you
were willing to look at PNG Manus Island as another potential site. They're also
signatories. Yesterday Stephen Smith, the Foreign Affairs Minister, essentially
really poured water on that idea. Where do we stand now? That seems that
there's a bit of flip flopping on that issue as well. Do you think…

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well I don't…

DAVID SPEERS: Well do you accept that PNG should be another option at all?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: No. Well I don't accept the premise of your question. I
was asked about the role of other countries. We have to engage multilaterally.
We have to engage with all of our partners in the region, insofar as ensuring we
have a sustainable regional protection framework…
PANELLIST: So it's about consulting PNG, but not about…

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: In relation to the PNG, the Foreign Minister's made

clear that they have not been approached and nor have they proffered any
particular view. They've been briefed by the Foreign Minister, when he was there
on a regular ministerial visit, about our Prime Minister's speech on Tuesday. Of
course we want to talk to partners in the region because we do want a regional
approach, a regional solution to a regional problem. We all share…

PANELLIST: Is it possible that we might have…

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: We all share the problem but insofar as centres are
concerned, we have our focus now on East Timor and talking to them about the
detail and we'll work through this methodically one step at a time. This is a step
forward and it's the next logical step.

DAVID SPEERS: So it will not go in PNG at all?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well you're putting to me hypotheticals. I can only say

to you David…

DAVID SPEERS: No, it's a direct question Minister. Will there be a regional
processing centre in PNG under this government?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: You put that question to me and the Prime Minister's
made clear that we are going to relentlessly pursue having a centre in the region
for the reasons I've already outlined and we are…

DAVID SPEERS: Which leaves PNG very much on the table.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: And we are now sitting - well look, if I can just answer
the question, we are now sitting down with a country, a country by the way that
has a great humanitarian record, a country that's led by not only a President, who
has great international standing, but a Prime Minister who understands the
complexities of this issue and understands the problems of people being
displaced in the region…

PANELLIST: This is something that's going to take ages and ages and ages.
This is going to take ages. It's going to take ages to do this, isn't it? I mean I
know the Prime Minister has said there's a long lead time involved in this. The
previous government set up two similar processing centres in a matter of months.
I don't think in a matter of months you are going to work out who you're talking to.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: And that was a failed approach, a unilateral approach,

which led to, of course, the closing down of that centre, but also…

PANELLIST: No hang on, two centres operated for quite a while and Nauru is still
ready to move into, should you wish to.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: And we've said we want a regional approach Malcolm

that will ensure we, that we, indeed ensuring that our obligations under
international law are fulfilled and that we engage the region. We don't unilaterally
impose a solution on a country.

Now the fact is the East Timorese President will be sitting down with Australia
and working through the details of the centre. We do want to engage the region
fully about the framework but insofar as a centre's concerned, let's just take this
one step at a time.

As for how long this will take, the Prime Minister on Tuesday said there wouldn't
be a quick fix so I was surprised when people were concerned that it hadn't been
fixed by Thursday.

DAVID SPEERS: Can you guarantee Minister that there will be anything in place
by the end of next year?
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well there's no timeline but there is a determination and
focus of this government, of our Prime Minister, on ensuring that we have a
regional solution to this problem and for that reason she outlined, in her second
week as Prime Minister, an approach forward. After dealing with a very complex
fraught issue in the area of the mining sector, we resolved that matter through
her intervention, providing certainty for the sector and our economy. We're now
moving onto a very complex area where there is no quick fix but there is a
determination and focus by this government to find a long lasting solution to this
issue.

PANELLIST: Minister, you have to concede that to all those Australians that
the Prime Minister talked about, that are concerned about these arrivals of
unauthorised boats, they might actually want to know about how long this might
take. That's a pretty reasonable thing for voters to want to know. How long will
this processing centre take? So if you can't commit to a time frame, what will you
tell the Australian people on how long you're prepared to talk to East Timor. For
instance if it takes six months or a year, will you then walk away from those talks
and go to plan B because, you know, they've gone on for too long. How long will
you talk before you move on to another option?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Let's just at least have the first series of meetings
around the detail. The fact is on Tuesday the Prime Minister outlined that she'd
spoken to the President. On Thursday, of only this week, the Prime Minister and
President of that country had indicated the preparedness to talk through the
details of a centre. That bodes well for those discussions but in the end East
Timor is a sovereign nation, it's a democracy, and of course the decisions around
these matters are entirely dependent upon their decisions as well as our own.

PANELLIST: Minister, I'm still struggling to understand why it has to be

offshore and why it can't be in Australia. You say that there's an element there of
removing the incentive to come here, but if they come here you'd process them
and send them to East Timor anyway. If they came here, you'd process them to
an onshore facility. There's really no difference in that. You mentioned before that
it had to be East Timor or that you'd look at East Timor. Is it because East Timor
is just a less attractive country than Australia so it can't be in a first world nation
like ours? I'm trying to understand why we can't house our idea in our own
country.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well in relation to the options, I mean this is subject to

the conversations we're having broadly, but the fact is that if you look at where
centres have been before, they're not normally placed in countries that would be
depicted as destination countries. The more important thing here is Peter…

PANELLIST: Why is that?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: The more important thing here is Peter is that we have
a preparedness now on behalf of East Timor for its President to sit down and
engage in the detail. Why wouldn't we do that? It would be foolhardy not to. We
are determined to discuss these matters with the President of East Timor and we
are also prepared of course and indeed wish to continue to discuss the broader
regional protection framework with all our partners in the region.

PANELLIST: So you're happy to go to the election with absolutely no idea for

how long this might take. So will you tell the Australian people that it will happen
in your second term at least? Within a three year period?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: What we won't do Patricia is go to an election with a

promise based on a lie, like the Leader of the Opposition. What we won't do is tell
the Australian people a lie about what can be done with a simplistic slogan of
turning back the boats. The Prime Minister on Tuesday said - enough of this. We
are telling the Australian people the truth. On Tuesday she outlined who she
spoke to and she's drawn criticism for that, but she's been open and honest with
the Australian people about her direction and I believe the Australian people,
what they want is honesty in this debate and they haven't had it from the
Opposition and they're getting it from this government.

DAVID SPEERS: The truth then Minister is that there is no guarantee from this
government that any regional processing centre will be delivered in the next term
at Parliament.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: There's a guarantee David that we will work relentlessly

to pursue this option because it is an important element for the entire regional
framework approach. It's the only way we're going to have a sustainable solution
to this complex issue.

DAVID SPEERS: Okay. Just to clarify, we may not see a regional processing
centre in the second term of the Gillard Government.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: No. You put words in my mouth David. I've said to you
that we are working this through. We are now talking with a country that happens
also to be a signatory to the Refugee Convention. We're talking to that country
about this, as we speak, we're talking about the detail. That bodes well for a
centre to be established but we will, as a government, focus our energies and as
the Prime Minister said, we would relentlessly pursue this issue as we go
forward.

DAVID SPEERS: Let's go back a step to, Malcolm mentioned earlier Nauru. It
was used before by the Howard Government. It still has a centre there. It's
expressed some readiness to take on that role again. I understand this - the
Labor Government does not want to go with a country that's not a signatory to
the UN Refugees Convention.

Can I ask you why not? What is the problem here? Is it a fear about sending
asylum seekers back to their troubled homeland? Why? What's the reasoning for
going with a signatory country?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well firstly we believe we need a regional approach and

we need to make sure that when we establish a centre it actually is a centre for
the region. It is not a quick fix sort of unilateral imposition on a small nation,
which drew international criticism, raised questions of breaches of international
law. This is not the approach of the Gillard Government. Our approach is we
want to remove the product that's been sold by people smugglers, luring people
on dangerous vessels, but do so that has regard to our humanitarian and
international obligations.

The best way to do that, David, is to ensure that we have direct engagement with
a country that's signatory to the convention because we will have, and not only of
course a refugee signatory, but also, also ensure that we are engaging fully with
the UNHCR and the International Organisation for Migration. We do need a
holistic approach that has regard to our international obligations. The Nauru
solution is not an approach that this government would take.

PANELLIST: Minister, if it has to be a country that is a signatory to the

convention, how do you then explain what was being termed the Indonesia
Solution last year that Kevin Rudd was promoting in the second half of last year,
because Indonesia's not a signatory?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well look I don't recall exactly the point you make but
we of course work closely with Indonesia. They are a transit country dealing with
this problem themselves and that's why the Prime Minister spoke to the President
of Indonesia this week and will continue to have conversations with them. We co-
chair the Bali process with Indonesia. They are indeed an important partner, a
very important partner, in dealing with this issue and that will continue to be the
case.

PANELLIST: Minister, could you give us a bit of a history of this policy?

There's a suggestion that it was raised last year, that the then Prime Minister
knocked it on the head, but it kept being developed. Is that true? What is the
history of it?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well can I say in relation to the regional centre, the
Prime Minister, that is the Prime Minister Gillard, believed we needed to enhance
our regional approach, we needed to consider a regional processing centre…

PANELLIST: Before she became Prime Minister?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: I'm sorry?

PANELLIST: Before she became Prime Minister? Was that her view when
she was Deputy Prime Minister?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: You'd have to ask her that question. I can only say to
you that from Tuesday she outlined the approach she believes this government,
this country should take and I think that was the right approach and that's what
we're doing now. We are now focusing on sitting down with East Timor and
discussing the detail of the proposal.

PANELLIST: Minister do you concede that it could be possible to have more than
one centre? So there could be one in East Timor and perhaps a smaller centre in
PNG on Manus Island. Is that a potential equation that could come out of this
process?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Look, I'm not going to be nominating how many or

where the centre should be. At this point in time Patricia we are now talking to
East Timor on the details…

PANELLIST: So you're open to the possibility, which is what I'm trying to find
out here.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: After the invitation they provided us to sit down and talk
and that's what we'll be doing.

PANELLIST: But are you open to the possibility that it might be a sort of a
bigger configuration than just having this one centre in East Timor? Perhaps for
instance that would appease some of the concerns of the East Timorese that
they wouldn't be the only, the only place where people would be parked.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well that may be subject of the conversations that are
held between East Timor and Australia. What we said is of course we'll talk all
partners in the region about the regional protection framework. At this point
however our focus is in having detailed discussions with the President of East
Timor.

PANELLIST: If that's your view why did the Prime Minister earlier this week
back away from that? What was the concern there because you seem to be quite
strongly saying East Timor is our priority and that's fair enough. But why did she
move away from that position?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well look, I understand people have concerns about

some of these issues but the Prime Minister was not going to be making any
unequivocal comments about location. She would never have done that until
there was a clear view by a country in question that they wanted to talk to us
about the proposition.

Now on Thursday the President and Prime Minister of East Timor made clear
they did want to sit down with Australia and talk about the detail and until then
the Prime Minister was not going to presume anything and we can now go
forward and discuss the details as agreed by the Prime Minister and the
President of East Timor.

PANELLIST: Minister, can I just get a handle on how long you think this is
going to take? Is it a fair characterisation to say that you are hopeful that you'll
get it done in the next term of government but there is no guarantee that you'll
get it done in the next term of government?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: It is a major priority of this government, the Prime

Minister has said there is no quick fix but it is a priority of this government and as
she has said we will relentlessly pursue it and that's all I can say on the matter
and people will understand that these things are complex but it is the focus of this
government to ensure we have a sustainable regional protection approach to
irregular migration and this is the best way forward?
PANELLIST: Minister, other than this policy are there other policies that the
Government might be developing in this area, as interim measures, considering
this might take so long? I mean Australians are sitting there in their lounge rooms
concerned about these boat arrivals. The Prime Minister's acknowledged that. So
do there need to be perhaps policy solutions that are found before this centre
eventually gets off the ground?

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Well there are things already going on of course…

PANELLIST: I mean new approaches…

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Patricia, there are - for example what seems not to have
been reported much in the speech on Tuesday was the lifting of the suspension
in Sri Lanka on the advice of well, varied advice, but including the advice of the
UNHCR that was published on Monday and other advice we received. We lifted
the suspension to continue the processing of those claims. We know now that
the situation in Sri Lanka, whilst not perfect is markedly improved and we expect
to see a higher level of rejections. We also of course made comment about the
changing circumstances in some parts of Afghanistan because, as she also
outlined, we've seen a much higher primary rejection rate of applications from
Afghanis. So there are indeed changes that are leading to a greater likelihood of
people being returned home.

But can I stress those people who are genuine refugees will be settled here or
another country.

DAVID SPEERS: All right Home Affairs Minister, Brendan O'Connor. On that
note we will have to leave things there. Thank you very much for joining us today
from Melbourne.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR: Thanks David.