A Shavian and a Theologian

An Illuminating Conversation between:

George Bernard Shaw
and
His Eminence Mohammad Abdul Aleem Siddiqui, al Qaderi
His Eminence Maulana Mohammed Abdul Aleem Siddiqui, al-Qaderi, the
eminent Muslim divine, who was on a visit to Mombassa, [Kenya, Africa]
interviewed George Bernard Shaw, the world-renowned Irish savant, who
was passing through on his way to South Africa on a holiday. The Union
Castle Liner, Linlithgow, by which he was travelling, stopped for three
days at the Island, and George Bernard Shaw was a guest of the Resident
Magistrate of Mombassa, a distant relative whom he had never met before.
When His Eminence arrived at the bungalow of the Magistrate, on
Wednesday morning, the 17th of April 1935, George Bernard Shaw at once
came out to receive him.

George Bernard Shaw, a well-built, medium stature erect
and imposing figure, a gentleman of noble mien, was
smiling . . .not the smile of the skeptic that flickers
round the corners of the lips, but one of real welcome
suffused his face, and there was nothing Shavian [an
admirer or devotee of G.B. Shaw] about him, if the
phonetic pun be permissible, for even his chin was not
shaved, and a long flowing beard, on the contrary,
imparted a serene dignity to his falsely represented
Freudian features. Full of vim and vigour, if it were not
for the grey colour of his hair, beard and eyebrows, he
could scarcely be credited with the four score years,
which strange to say, he carried with almost youthful
buoyancy.
As His Eminence, a venerable figure in his dignified
Arabic robes, comparatively very young, for he was only
forty-three, although his grey hair due to chronic catarrh
and unceasingly intense mental strain made him look
much older, stepped out of the car, there was a hearty
exchange of greetings, after which His Eminence
expressed his great pleasure at meeting him. The Grand
Old Man immediately rejoined that having heard about
his missionary exploits and his novel way of preaching
Islam, he himself was eager to know him, and it was
indeed a very happy coincidence that they had met there
that day.
The conversation which followed was very interesting,
though devoid of Shavian shafts and sarcasm, perhaps
because the usual roles of interviews with George
Bernard Shaw were reversed in this case: for it was
George Bernard Shaw who asked the question of the
interviewer, and listened attentively to the prompt lucid
and informative replies of His Eminence. As an indirect
account the lively discussion might rob it of its personal
touch, it is preferable that the stalwarts are made to
speak for themselves.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: I regret, I was not able,
on account of a previous engagement, to attend your
lecture last night, although I was very keen on doing so.
You spoke on Philosophy of Peace, but as a Muslim, it
would have been more appropriate if you had delivered
a lecture on the Philosophy of War, for Islam doubtless,
was spread at the point of the sword.
HIS EMINENCE: This is a common misunderstanding
regarding Islam. I was dealing with this problem only last
night, and I am really surprised that this myth which has
been thoroughly exploded by now should receive any
notice from a scholar of your calibre. However, I may
briefly tell you now that the literal meaning of every
word "Islam" is peace. An authentic record of the
teachings of Islam in their pristine purity has been
preserved intact in the Qur'an and the Traditions. They go

1
to establish beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Islam
permits the use of the sword only when wantonly
attacked and compelled to defend itself. Besides, there
is an explicit injunction in the Holy Qur'an that: "There
is no coercion in religion," thus clearly forbidding the
use of force or compulsion in matters of religion. As a
matter of fact, I entertain the same conviction regarding
the teachings of genuine Christianity, for our sense of
reasoning tells us that if they be revelations and their
source of emanation be consequently Divine they cannot
but emphatically veto any manner of violence in respect
of belief and enjoin its inculcation by means of
arguments and rational discourses. As far as Islam is
concerned the Qur'an distinctly says: "So that he who
perisheth thereafter may perish after demonstrative
evidence, and that he who liveth may live by the same
evidence." The method that Islam teaches for its
propagation, and to which its acceptance by all
reasonable men and its spread to all corners of the world
in the past and the present is due, consists of the Quranic
dictum: "Invite people to the way of your Lord with
wisdom and mild exhortation, and dispute with them
in the most conciliating manner."
History bears testimony to the fact that Christ was
declared consubstantial [of the same substance] with the
father by the Council of Nice, convened by Constantine
in Bithynia in the year 325 A.C., and to enforce the
belief in the Divinity of Christ, there followed a most
horrid and inhuman slaughter of thousands of innocent
people who refused to accept the dogma, not only in
Europe, but in the sacred city of Jerusalem as well; but
in spite of it all, I can never hold the real Christianity
responsible for it. Of course, those representatives of
the Church who wanted to impress the hearts of the
people with their power and greatness and perpetuate
their priestly authority, ensuring the people's submission
to their will, can be rightly saddled with all the blame.
Similarly, the sanguinary wars, known as Crusades, were
the outcome of the Machiavellian machinations of such
interested ecclesiastical groups of men, who realizing
that the uncompromising preaching of the Oneness of
God by Islam was a great obstacle in their path and their
self-fabricated Divine authority was at stake. Launched
an unscrupulous campaign against Islam and Muslims.
They instigated the credulous mediaeval Europe to wage
the so-called "holy wars" against Islam and Muslims, by
circulating blood-curdling tales of imaginary atrocities
by Muslims on Christians, describing the Muslims as
infidels and inveterate enemies of their religion,
property and persons. Obviously, therefore, these
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Church dignitaries alone can beheld liable to account for
those cruel, protracted, futile wars, and not the original
teachings of Christianity or Islam and the Muslims.
Further, if we grant as a supposition, that some Muslim
rulers and tribes, actuated by the lust of conquest,
became aggressors, long after the advent of Islam, and
let slip the dogs of war for self- aggrandizement, we can,
in fairness, condemn those individuals for the
reprehensible acts, and surety not Islam.
In this connection, I happen to have made certain
remarks recently, in one of my speeches at Durban, and,
as they are very pertinent, I would like to repeat them to
you.
"If certain nations, immersed in paganism and
superstition and ignorant of the real teachings of
religion, wage wars in its name, the crime is theirs, and
no blame can be ascribed to religion. Were not millions
of human beings killed during the Great War in the name
of peace, justice and the laudable object of safeguarding
the rights of weaker nations? Should we then condemn
these humane and noble qualities because some
statesman abused these terms and sanctioned the
inhuman slaughter for the attainment of their own selfish
ends?"
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: There is no doubt that the
Roman Church fanatics were, to a great extent,
responsible for the sad events, and the pure teachings of
Christianity have no concern with their occurrence. It
may also be admitted, that a great many
misunderstandings prevail regarding Islam, and that it is
being widely misrepresented, but do the Muslim masses
agree with your interpretation, and do they believe that
Islam was not, and should not be, spread by force?
HIS EMINENCE: Every Muslim is bound to endorse it,
for whatever I say is precisely what the Qur'an says, and
my own views or conceptions have nothing to do with it.
Many books have been written on this subject, and Syed
Amir Ali, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Allama Shibli and other
learned Doctors of Islamic Theology have exhaustively
dealt with all aspects of this problem in their books.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: I know that there is a
considerable amount of concord between Islam and
Christianity!
HIS EMINENCE: The concordance is not merely
nominal or superficial, for the Qur'an expressly
predicates that when the ultimate source or origin of an
inspired or revealed and Divine religion is the Being of
God, unanimity in such revelations is indispensable.
Islam has been conceived as a new religion, but
according to the Qur'an itself, the religion preached by
it is the same that was promulgated by all the true
Prophets and, from Abraham right up to Jesus, God
deputed them, one and all, for the dissemination of much
the same teachings.
It was only because their original teachings were
tempered with and corrupted, and their authenticity
became dubious, that the Almighty God sent the last
Prophet, and the last Book, to re-state, confirm and
complete His Original Message. The Holy Qur'an has
made this quite clear by saying that: "We ordained for
you the religion with which We commanded Noah, and
which We have revealed unto thee (0 Muhammad!),
and with which We commanded Abraham and Moses
and Jesus, saying Observe this religion and be not
divided therein."
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: The translations of the
Qur'an, which I have read, certainly go to substantiate
your statements. I very much prefer the translation made
by one who has adopted a different variation of the
arrangement of the verses to that which is generally
followed by other translators. I had it always with me
during my tour of Morocco and Algeria, and my
occasional references to its contents proved to be a
perennial source of diversion and curious amusement to
the Muslims of those lands. It is one of the editions of
"Every Man's Library", and I have commended its wider
publicity to some of the publishers.
HIS EMINENCE: The translation you allude to is that
of Mr. Rodwell!
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: Yes.
HIS EMINENCE: There is no doubt that Mr. Rodwell
has expended a great deal of energy and industry in
translating the chapters of the Qur'an in their
chronological order, but as his knowledge of the Arabic
literature and Islamic history was not sufficiently wide
and profound, a considerable number of translated
passages are so misleading and contain such flagrant
mistakes, (which I by no means attribute to a deliberate
intent on his part, but as I have already said, they may be
the result of his limited knowledge in the said spheres)
that they are likely to create wrong impressions about
Islam.
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As far as the translations of the Qur'an are concerned, I
would recommend you to read "The Meaning of the
Glorious Koran" by Mr. Marmaduke Pickthall, and I am
sure that its perusal will enable you to appreciate
considerably more the exquisite beauty, the sublime
transcendence and the appealing and impressive style of
the Qur'an's perspective. However, I do not imply that it
is a perfect version of the original, for you yourself can
aptly judge, being an admittedly splendid writer, that in
spite of the translator being the ablest and the best, he
can never transmit the force and brilliance of your
original writings into his translations.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: It is quite true that the
spirit of the original cannot be transplanted into its
translation in another language, and the same is the case
with the translation of the Bible, but they have now
achieved a very high standard, and the process of raising
it still higher is being continued.
HIS EMINENCE: Although the translations of the Bible
may attain the highest stage of perfection from the
standpoint of language, one cannot say, under any
circumstances, that they contain the original message of
Christianity, or are the genuine versions of the teachings
of Jesus Christ, for the original message, as you know,
in its unalloyed purity, as delivered by Jesus, is no more
extant. The result of the numerous sections of the Bible,
and the absence of the original manuscript, is confusion
worse confounded, and a seeker after truth cannot
quench his thirst at its hydroid font, whilst the Qur'an, in
contrast, has been preserved in such a manner that there
has not been the slightest change, not even to the extent
of a letter or a dot. Hence, if we want to know the real
teachings of Christianity, we must look for them in the
Qur'an.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: Has there been really no
alteration in the Qur'an, and is it absolutely preserved in
its original form? Did Prophet Muhammad know how to
write, and is his writing in existence?
HIS EMINENCE: There is a complete and authentic
record of each and every chapter, nay, even of every
verse, or I might say, of every word of the Qur'an. The
Prophet, immediately following the revelation of a verse
or verses to him, used to send for the special scribes
appointed for the purpose and dictate the same to them.
When transcribed, he would ask them to recite what they
had written, and, after listening to and verifying it, would
explain to them its meaning.
The manuscripts in the handwriting of one of the most
honoured and trusted among the scribes, by the name of
Zaid bin Sabit, are preserved intact in the archives of
Constantinople and Medina, and all the editions of the
Qur'an in the world are their exact copies, not differing
among themselves even in point of a comma or a dash.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: What! are there
punctuation marks in the Qur'an?
HIS EMINENCE: The punctuation marks, in the English
language merely comprise commas, colons,
semi-colons, full- points, etc., but the principles of
Quranic elocution comprehend numerous signs of a
different kind. For instance, a stop is compulsory in
certain places, whilst it is optional in others; some
endings are to be fully pronounced, whilst others are
quiescent, etc. The correct accents, pronunciations,
accurate halts, etc., are so intricate and difficult of
acquisition that the Quranic elocution has been evolved
into a distinct art, and copious volumes have been
written on its theory and practice.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: All this is rather
astonishing and new to me. I was also surprised to learn
that you delivered a speech on "Islam and Science" at
Nairobi. What I find difficult to understand is how you
can possibly present the picture of Heaven and Hell,
which is portrayed in the Qur'an, in a manner convincing
to persons conversant with science, whose minds are
inured to accept nothing without visible or palpable
proof.
I hold the Prophet of Arabia in great esteem and I can
quite understand that it would have been impossible to
restrain and wean that illiterate and perverse race, sunk
in the miasma of utter moral depravity, from committing
the most heinous of crimes, and imbue its people with
enthusiasm to strive after righteousness and assimilate
high morals and virtues, without projecting such a
terrible and intensely awe inspiring spectacle of Hell and
an equally captivating and enticing image of a land
flowing with milk and honey to represent Heaven before
their vision. I also very much admire the forcible and
striking diction of the Qur'an. What elegant grace and
beauty characterizes that passage which depicts the
dreadful scene of the doomsday field, and, when dealing
with infanticide, dramatically leaves off at the question:
"For what crime were thou slain?" to the innocent
child that was buried alive or put to death. In my opinion,
it is the most effective way of the people. But I am afraid
4
I am digressing, for I would very much like to know how
the problem of Heaven and Hell can possibly be
elucidated in the light of science.
HIS EMINENCE: You are a master of the art of writing,
and your enchanting and novel literary productions with
your magical pen revolutionize the mentality of the
readers. I am sure you will agree with me on this point,
that material language cannot possibly act as an apt
vehicle for the accurate conveyance of the significance
and reality of spiritual problems and phenomena without
the help of metaphors and similes, and these at best can
serve to frame analogies. One must therefore, bear this
fact in mind and make due allowance for the mode of
expression in describing Hell and Heaven in the Qur'an.
Simultaneously, however, with such illustrations that
confine their appeal to physical senses, God Almighty
stipulates in the clearest terms not to be too inquisitive
regarding the true nature of the blessings of Heaven:"So
no one knows what is in store for them of that which
will refresh the eyes." And, according to the Traditions,
we should, under no circumstances, think of them in any
way comparable to the objects of this world: "The
reality of their constitution has been neither witnessed
by any human eyes, nor have the ears listened to
words capable of expressing it; it is, indeed beyond
the pale of human imagination, and even a
perfunctory surrogate of it cannot be visualized." How
can it be asserted in the face of this pronounced
explanation that the blessings of Heaven resemble in any
way, whatsoever, the things that please us or contribute
to our happiness in this world. The truth of the matter, on
the contrary, is that just as a consequence of compliance
with natural or physical laws, material progress and
comfort, commensurate with the degree of
comprehension and execution, follow as a matter of
course, so in proportion to allegiance or adherence to
moral and spiritual laws and their translation into
practice, one attains the utmost possible spiritual bliss
and beatitude, and likewise their violation entails
spiritual torture and tribulation. Now if, according to the
law of progress, everything is heading for advancement,
there must naturally be a zenith of it, and beyond that
there must be no point of further progress. Comfort or
happiness and grief or suffering are two states which a
person experiences in this life; hence there must be an
extreme point of both these states. This very extreme
point of pleasure or bliss is called Heaven, and the
extreme point of pain or sorrow, Hell. Just as there are
material media that are either conducive to happiness or
instrumental in inflicting suffering in this world, so must
there be some kind of media to procreate that state of
bliss or generate pain and suffering in the other world. A
metaphorical word-picture of the former has been
sketched to portray Heaven, and the tremendously
appalling and dreadful portrait of torments has been
drawn to symbolize Hell. Now this other world which we
can call spiritual or celestial is neither like this material
world, nor is it purely spiritual, having no connection,
whatsoever, with matter, and where there are only souls
utterly free from matter. The human being, body and soul
together, is responsible or accountable for his activities.
Hence the soul in partnership with the quintessence of
this very physical organism will meet with the kind of
happiness or grief suitable to the conditions obtaining in
that world. Now it only remains to define matter, but as
you know, this is not possible even at the present stage
of scientific progress. For, what matter really is, is a
conundrum that has not been solved in spite of the
attempts made by the best human brains. Far from
succeeding in analysing it chemically, the greatest
scientists have not been able even to picture its reality.
The culminating point of scientific research up to date is
the establishment of the Theory of Protons and
Electrons, according to which the wave radiation of
these are the basis of the universe, and every physical
body in its solid form is the result of those very
radiations. This is what the magazine 'The World of
Wonder' says about matter: "Matter seems very solid,
but men of science tell us that if all the spaces in the
atoms that make up our bodies were done away with, and
the nucleus and electrons of the atoms were
concentrated into a mass, the whole matter of a grown
man's body would be so small that it could not be seen
with the naked eye." Hence, if it is possible for a
scientist to accept without positive proof that an average
electron flies round its nucleus several thousand million
times every second, and base the formation of solid
physical organisms on their wave radiations, there
should be no difficulty for him to imagine the soul and
body in a form suitable to the conditions of the kind of
happiness or grief to be met with in the great Beyond. A
very hazy picture of those states can be said to reflect
itself in those weird experiences of ours which we call
dreams.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: This is really a very
beautiful, eloquent and gratifying explanation, but will
the present day Muslims be prepared to accept it?
HIS EMINENCE: This description is by no means a
concoction of my brain, but, as I have already said, it is
5
propounded by the Qur'an. I cannot claim any credit,
even for the manner of description, because my great
predecessors, Imams Fakhruddin Razi, Ghazzali, and
Mohiuddin-ibn-Arabi, when addressing enlightened
philosophers like you, expressed themselves in similar
terms. If I may say it in the original style, I have only
gathered a few crumbs from their tables of magnificent
feasts. All the teachings of Islam are rational; there are
no mysteries and dogmas. They only require to be
explained in a proper light to transfuse their correct
sense. It is difficult to understand the literature of any
art with which we are not conversant. Hence, in order to
grasp and assimilate the problematical points related to
any art, we must first acquire knowledge and cultivate
intimate acquaintance with that particular art. If we then
seek their solution in the light of this knowledge, we
shall easily understand them.
(At this stage Mr. Shaw's hostess came in, and Mr.
Shaw introduced His Eminence to her. Addressing Mr.
Shaw, she said that it was almost time for him to leave
for the docks. Mr. Shaw said he must certainly make a
move then and, turning to His Eminence, said:)
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: Your conversation is so
very interesting and informative, that I would like to have
the privilege of enjoying your company for years, but
unfortunately, I have to leave now.
HIS EMINENCE: I also ardently desire to have the
benefit of exchanging views with such a cultured and
learned scholar as yourself, particularly when I find that
an inadequate acquaintance with the teachings of Islam
from inauthentic and perhaps tainted sources has evoked
such a positive and optimistic statement from you
regarding Islam, that: "The future religion of the
educated, cultured and enlightened people will be
Islam." I would like to speak to you about the profound
philosophy and psychological truths the Qur'an
expounds, so that a gifted and erudite savant of your
parts and genius, perfectly familiar with the tastes and
mental tendencies of the civilized world, can present
them to it in an effective and desirable manner.
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: I am really very sorry
that I could secure such a short time for speaking to a
learned sage like yourself.
HIS EMINENCE: I am, however, grateful even for this
opportunity and avail myself of the occasion to present
to you the printed copies of two of my Lectures on
"Religious and Scientific Progress of the World", and
"Spiritual Culture in Islam", which I recently delivered at (Bidding farewell to each other, His Eminence wishing
Durban. I also give you this booklet on "Islam" by my George Bernard Shaw a bon voyage, they parted, and
friend, Mr. Elias Burney, M.A., a Professor of George Bernard Shaw was seen standing on the
Economics at the Usmania University, Hyderabad, verandah waving his hand till the car went out of
Deccan, [India] who has made a classified collection of sight.)
the Quranic verses under various heads with explanatory
notes. You will, please, read them and communicate to 3rd May 1935.
me on any point from these or any other book connected
with Islam, and I shall try my level best to elucidate them The writer of this work is well known to me, and the
and meet your criticisms, if any, in the light of Quranic reader can be sure the learned writer has caught the
teachings. true atmosphere. His Eminence Mohammed Abdul
Aleem Siddiqui, is also well known to me and I can
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: There is no doubt that well imagine the scene, when Shaw from being the
your way of presenting the Islamic teachings is very scoffer came gradually to be infected with the dynamic
fascinating, but does the orthodox section of Muslims energy and sincerity of purpose of the famous Muslim
agree with you? divine. The only thing I wish to complain about is the
shortness of the interview. But I suppose one cannot
HIS EMINENCE: To be candid, I myself am strictly expect anything that is really good in very large doses
orthodox and identify myself with that section which in this world.
refuses to countenance the slightest alteration in the
teachings of Islam. The words of the Tradition of our M.T. Akbar,K.C.,B.A.,L.L.B.
Prophet that "He who interprets the Qur'an according Senior Puisne Justice,
to his own opinion should be prepared to Supreme Court-Colombo.
accommodate himself in hell" are indelibly impressed
on my mind. Let alone the fundamental principles, I am
one of those who try to act in conformity with the
precepts of the least significance. For instance, my
companion, Mr. Ali Mohammed Jaffer, who is
deputising for the President of the local Muslim
Association, had taken a photographer with him as he
proposed to have a picture of our meeting, but I refused
point blank to accede to his request and sent back the
photographer. Pictures have led to idol-worship, and a
photograph that might be taken today as a mere
memento, might at some future date become an object
of adoration to some over-zealous admirers who might
be carried away by misconceived fervour. Islam, has,
therefore, disallowed this practice, and I submit to its
veto, and never give permission to take my picture. But
if anyone takes it without my consent, well, the
responsibility is his. I have said all this so that you may
be able to gauge the extent to which I must be orthodox
where the main principles of Islam are concerned, when
I am so punctilious regarding such a point of detail
which in the opinion of some modern Muslims is
permissible.

GEORGE BERNARD SHAW: I have been very pleased

to make your acquaintance, and it will be the most
precious of all memories of this trip of mine.