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UNITED STATES TAX COURT TRIAL

ESTATE (OF MICHAEL J. JACKSON DECEASED)


EXECUTORS: JOHN G. BRANCA AND JOHN MCCLAIN

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VS

COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE (IRS)

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February 22nd /23rd/24th 2017

Presiding Judge Mark V. Holmes

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Jacksons estate is represented by Avram Salkin, Charles Paul Rettig, Steven Richard Toscher, Robert
S. Horwitz, Edward M. Robbins Jr., Sharyn M. Fisk and Lacey E. Strachan of Hochman Salkin Rettig

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Toscher & Perez PC, Paul Gordon Hoffman, Jeryll S. Cohen and Loretta Siciliano of Hoffman Sabban
& Watenmaker and Howard L. Weitzman of Kinsella Weitzman Iser Kump & Aldisert LLP.
The IRS is represented by its attorneys Donna F. Herbert, Malone Camp, Sebastian Voth, Jordan
Musen and Laura Mullin.
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..................................................................

WITNESS: JOHN G. BRANCA


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(MICHAEL JACKSON ESTATE CO-EXECUTOR)
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Judge Holmes: With that. Thank you, Mr. Salkin. The floor is yours, Mr. Voth.

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Mr. Voth: Thank you, Your Honor. But just for the record given that Mr. Branca is an adverse party,
respondent will be asking leading questions.

Judge Holmes: You certainly may.

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Court Clerk: Do we need to swear him in?

Judge Holmes: That's a good question. Let's swear him in again. This is somewhat different. Just to be
sure.

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(John Branca called to the stand)

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Court Clerk: Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
in the case will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
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John Branca: I do.

**IMPEACHMENT THE PROCESS. Once a witness is asked a question, if his answer is


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DIFFERENT to one that he gave previously in deposition. He is reminded of the question he
gave previously thus the process is called Impeachment. Please see text below in bold***

Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.


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DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. VOTH:

Mr. Voth: Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon.

Mr. Branca: Good afternoon.


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Q: All right. So Michael Jackson hired you around 1980. Is that correct?
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A: January of 1980.

Q: Okay. And you worked with Michael Jackson for approximately 26 years. Is that fair to say?
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A: On and off, not continuously.

Q: Okay. Your role was pretty minimal between 2003 and 2005. Is that correct?
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A: Correct.
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Q: In fact, you were pretty much out of it by the beginning of 2003.

A: I don't know if I was out of it, but my contact was primarily with people representing Mr.
Jackson, rather than directly with him.

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**PAGE 164 HE SAYS HE DID SPEAK TO MJ, SO WHICH IS IT??

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Footnote. Branca was fired by Michael Jackson in 03, here he admits he had no contact with MJ!
Letter firing Branca February 2003, Michael didnt even wait for official report from investigators
to be typed, dated April 2003 https://www.scribd.com/document/101281102/John-Branca-You-are-
FIRED https://www.scribd.com/document/102043792/Interfor-Report-John-Branca

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Al Sharpton CONFIRMS Michael was with HIM in NY day the Will was supposedly signed in LA
https://youtu.be/zssDlVYx4y4

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CONFRONTING THE LIARS, LIVE FROM COURT https://youtu.be/NUxBmJb4dPo **

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Q: Okay. So then you formally resigned in 2006.

A: Either 2005 or 2006.


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Q: Okay. So with respect to Michael Jackson, you had stopped talking to him two to three years before
that. Is that fair?

A: Yes.
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Q: Now, when you resigned, you didn't think he had the right business advisors. Is that correct?

A: Excuse me.

Q: When you resigned in 2005-2006, you didn't think he had the right business advisors. Is that
correct?
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A: I was concerned about the quality of his representation. That's correct.


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Q: Okay. He had these German advisors. Can you remind us of their names?

A: I believe there was a gentleman named Myung Ho-Lee.


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Q: And what about the German one?

A: Dieter and Ronald ??. I believe they were involved at the time.
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Q: And they would fail to tell Michael Jackson the truth. Is that correct?
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A: I don't know how to answer that.

Mr. Weitzman: Calls for speculation. Objection. Calls for speculation because he has personal

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knowledge, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Oh, establish a foundation then, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Weitzman: Will do, Your Honor. May I approach the Clerk to have a document marked for

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identification?

Judge Holmes: You may.

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Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, can you please provide petitioner counsel a copy of the Branca deposition.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 702-R is marked for identification.

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Mr. Voth: All right. So please look at, and see if this refreshes your recollection, Mr. Branca, Page
64 of your deposition, Lines 1 through 3. And so based on your personal knowledge, the German
advisors would never tell the truth to Michael, correct?
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Mr. Weitzman: I'm going to object, Your Honor. Still calls for speculation. Leads the way of proper
foundation as to whether or not whatever he testified... whatever his testimony was was Mr. Branca's
personal knowledge, Your Honor.
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Judge Holmes: Well, that's actual true. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: Okay. You knew of the German advisors, correct?

Mr.Branca: Correct.
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Q: And you were deposed in this case, correct?

A: Correct.

Q: And you stated that these German advisors would never tell the truth to Michael, correct?
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A: That is what I stated, so...


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Q: Okay. So then the question is what was your basis for that assertion?

A: I had an experience with them where they went to Michael and proposed something called a
mystery drink, which was going to be a soft drink for the German market. They defaulted on their
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payments. They defaulted on their obligations. And we brought that to Michael's attention to terminate
the license, and they would go around us and start to... rather than justify their actions, they would start
to say things like, you know, "John Branca doesn't have your best interest at heart," or that kind of
thing.
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Q: Okay. With respect to Mr. Lee, how did you know of Mr. Lee?
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A: How did I know about Mr. Lee?

Q: Yeah.

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A: Michael started working with him in some capacity. Mr. Lee was an advisor to Michael.

Q: And Mr. Lee eventually sued Michael Jackson, correct?

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A: I believe so.

Q: Okay. And didn't these different advisers that are in place, you thought that Michael kind of lost
touch with reality?

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Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, I'm sorry. Just as a way of foundation, can we have a time period in which
Mr. Voth is referring to?

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Judge Holmes: Sort of. Mr. Voth, what time are you talking about?

Mr. Voth: All right. So this is around the time you resigned. When were the German advisors in place
with respect to Michael Jackson?
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A: I would call the exact period of time they were...

Q: What years approximately?


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A: Oh, I think it would have been late-'90s into 2005, and maybe beyond. I don't recall.

Q: Okay. And what's your recollection with respect to what years Mr. Lee was involved?
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A: I think Mr. Lee became involved approximately 2003-2004, and then was involved for a period of
time.

Q: Okay. And then if we look at Page 64 of your deposition, you state, "When these are the people that
are surrounding him, maybe he loses a little touch with reality or with, you know, the marketplace."
Can you explain that statement, please?
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A: Well, these people were not... did not have a background in the entertainment industry or in the
music industry to the point where they could advise Michael about music industry practices. So... and
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that's... and I believe they probably tried to shield people from Michael so that they were the sole
source of information.

Q: All right. Let's move on to when you reunited with Michael Jackson in 2009. So Michael Jackson
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hired you in June of 2009. Is that correct?

A: I believe it was June 17.


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Q: Frank DiLeo reached out to you before you were hired in 2009.
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A: Correct.

Q: Frank DiLeo proposed to reunite the great team of the '80's.

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A: I think... yeah. Frank brought that up. Whether that came from him or directly from Michael, I'm not
sure.

Q: Okay. And the great team of the '80's consisted of you, Frank DiLeo and Michael Jackson. Is that
correct?

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A: Yes. And he also had good financial advisers during that period.

Q: Okay.

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A: And you met with Frank DiLeo approximately 30 days before meeting Michael Jackson in June of
2009, correct?

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Q: Approximately.

A: Approximately. You had to think about ideas to present to Michael Jackson.


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Q: Frank and I met, I think, twice, and once was, you know, to sort of get back in touch with each
other, and then the second time was when he was proposing with Randy Phillips to set up a meeting
with Michael. And he communicated to me that I should not just come to the meeting and say hi, I
should come with some potential ideas for Michael.
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A: All right. You met with Michael Jackson, and that was approximately eight days before his death. Is
that correct?

Q: Correct.
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A: Okay.

Q: So you have this meeting. Frank DiLeo was at the meeting.

A: Yes.
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Q: Randy Phillips was at the meeting.


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A: Yes.

Q: So was Michael Kane.


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A: Yes.

Q: The meeting with Michael Jackson lasted about 30 to 45 minutes. Is that correct?
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A: Approximately.
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Q: All right. You mentioned these ideas. So you brought an agenda with you to the meeting. Is that
correct?

A: Correct.

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Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 26-J.

Q: And this is the agenda you prepared for the meeting. Is that correct? And please...

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A: Can I see the end?

Q: ...let us give him some time to... yeah...

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A: Can I see the end of it?

Q: Absolutely.

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A: Yes, that is it.

Mr. Voth: All right. Mr. Camp, can you please go up to Item 2-A.
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Q: All right. Item 2-A references a Thriller film. So I know at our deposition we talked about
different ideas that this might refer to, so let's go through some of them. It might refer to creating
a scary film using elements of the Thriller video. Is that correct?
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A: 2-A referred to the possibility to think about creating a film based on the song Thriller and the
short film, as Michael would call it, the music video Thriller.

Q: Okay. So they would use elements of the Thriller video, right?


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A: I don't know if we'd use elements. It would be more something inspired by.

Q: Okay. So let's refer to Page 72 of your deposition. I'm just going off of your own words.

A: Which part of 72, or the whole page?

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor... one moment.


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Q: All right. So we're looking at Lines 5 through 8, and you talked about either... to rudiment
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four, the elements of the Thriller video. Is that correct?

A: Correct. The creative elements of a video as...


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Q: Right.

A: ...a past... as opposed to snippets or pieces of the video itself.


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Q: Okay. Thank you for the clarification. The Thriller film also might have been an animation project.
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A: It could.

Q: Okay. It might have had actors in it.

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A: It could have been live action, could have been a film, yep.

Q: All right. When we look at Item 2-B, Thriller Broadway play, in essence, the same concept that we
just discussed.

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A: Yeah. These were ideas. Whether there was a film first or a play first, or a play first or a film first, or
neither, these are all possibilities.

Q: Okay. Move on to Item 2-E. Thriller haunted house attraction. Might it refer to trying to create a

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live attraction that people could go to. Is that correct?

A: Sure. There's something called the Haunted Hayride. It would be something that could be an
interesting Halloween attraction.

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Q: Okay. There could have also been a haunted house.

A: Could be.

Q: Also a Michael Jackson museum.


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A: Possible Michael Jackson museum, yep.
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Q: Move onto Item 2-F, the Neverland Museum. So if I understood you correctly at our deposition, you
explained sort of possibly when... you know, was trying to figure out a way to recreate Neverland. Is
that fair?
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A: Yes. It's not possible to create a commercial attraction out of Neverland because of his owning.

Q: Out of the ranch itself to try to something outside of...

A: Correct.

Q: Okay. So it'd be a place where people would go and see Michael Jackson's stuff?
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A: Correct.
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Q: Now, when he opened the Immortal show in Vegas, you did end up doing a Michael Jackson sort of
museum attraction, correct?
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A: Yes, at the Mandalay Bay.

Q: Okay. And also, when you were working with AEG, they insisted on the right to open up a Michael
Jackson museum attraction. Is that correct?
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A: Yes. There was one in London, and then it was moved to Tokyo.
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Q: But they also do it at the 02 Arena?

A: That was the one in London.

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Q: The one in... oh. And Tokyo you mentioned, right?

A: And Tokyo.

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Q: Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Voth: All right, Mr. Camp, please move down to Item 5-D.

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Q: All right. 5-D, coordinate worldwide merchandise program. So first, this is referring to a tour
merchandiser that's selling merchandise at the show. Correct?

A: Correct.

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Q: And perhaps try to sell it somewhere else. Is that correct?

A: For those fans that could not attend the shows, that perhaps they could buy tour merchandise online.
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Q: Okay. Go to Item 5-E, interactive MJJ website. So used to take advantage of social media. Correct?

A: Correct.
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Q: Fans could message each other.

A: Well sure, there are fan sites where that happens, but as well, an official MJJ site, yes.
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Q: Okay. Both could possibly sell concert merchandise.

A: This is a slightly different idea.

Q: So this was not an idea that was at all related to the tour?

A: No. It was an idea for Michael to have a website, like certain other superstars do where... which we
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have now, MJJ.com, where there are daily posts and contests and things to engage Michael's fan
community.
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Q: Like I said, we looked at Page 83 of your deposition, and we were also talking about Item 5-E,
Lines 9 through 11. This is where I'm seeking clarification. You did mention that this could have
also related to selling the concert merchandise on the MJ website, correct?
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A: The concert merchandise on the MJ website?

Q: Right.
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A: As an idea.
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Q: An idea, right. Yeah, I know. Now, the estate eventually did create the website, MJJ.com. Is that
correct?

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A: Yeah. I don't recall if we created it or enhanced it, but we definitely revamped it, yep.

Q: All right. And that's somewhere where fans can message each other.

A: I don't know fans message each other on that site, but we put out daily posts and information about

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Michael.

Q: It's a way of getting the fans to feel involved with respect to Michael Jackson.

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A: Yes. Yeah. There's a Facebook site as well, which is more of a messaging site.

Mr. Voth: One moment.

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Q: Now, in looking at Exhibit 26-J, to some degree, you did try to accomplish the same idea when
you took over the estate of Michael Jackson, correct?

A: Well, I'm not sure which ideas you're referring to.

Q: Oh, I'm just going by your statement.


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A: We haven't tried to do everything on this list.
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Q: No, that's why I said to some degree. And if we look at Page 97 of your deposition, Lines 12
through 15. So we're talking... we're also talking about this agenda. And you stated, "We would
try to see what we could accomplish. And so, you know, the same ideas then I tried to accomplish
to some degree with the estate." Did I read that correctly?
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A: Yes.

Q: Okay. You know of Tohme Tohme, correct?

A: I've met Mr. Tohme. I noticed you didn't refer to him as Dr. Tohme.
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Mr. Voth: Your Honor, I move to strike.


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Judge Holmes: Overruled, actually. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: Thank you, sir.


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Q: All right. But you know of him, that's what I want to make sure.

A: I know of him.
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Q: Okay. And he was one of Michael Jackson's managers between 2008 and 2009, approximately.
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A: I'm not sure what I would call him. I guess he'd probably refer to himself as a manager,
perhaps he was more of an adviser of some kind. I'm not sure.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.

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Q: All right. So if you go to Page 67 of your deposition... 67 of your deposition, Lines 13 through
15, I asked you, "And at that time"... we're talking about somebody from LA Gear... "were you
aware that he was one of Michael Jackson's managers?" "ANSWER: Yes." Did I read that
statement correctly?

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A: Correct, but the use of the term manager can refer to a financial adviser or an entertainment industry
manager.

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Q: Okay. But he was involved in 2008 and 2009 with Michael Jackson in whatever capacity, whether
it's financial or otherwise. You do acknowledge that, correct?

A: I believe so, yes.

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Q: Okay. And you spoke to Tohme Tohme at least once, correct?

A: Before Michael passed away, I met him briefly, and I may have spoken with him on the phone. I
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don't recall. And after Michael passed away, I met with him, I believe, a couple of times... two or three
times.

Q: Okay. And so let's go back to 2009. Let's assume Tohme Tohme was still involved. You would have
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not returned to be a part of the team with respect to Michael Jackson. Is that correct?

A: I don't believe so. It's a hypothetical question.

Q: Okay. So let's go to... all right. So if you go to Page 60 of your deposition, we're talking about, in
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part, of Tohme, and your answer was, "So, you know, anyway, if Dr. Tohme had been the manager, I
wouldn't have touched it with a ten-foot pole." Did I read that sentence correctly?

A: Yes. Of course, I answered that question after having had the experience of spending time with Dr.
Tohme after Michael passed away. If you... if I'm trying to go back in time to early-2009 when I did not
know Mr. Tohme, whether I would have worked with Michael or not, I guess, depended on... first of
all, I don't think Mr. Tohme would have hired me. And second of all, if I sat down with Mr. Tohme and
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Michael and felt like there was a contribution to be made, then that would have been a different story.
However, you asked me this question after Michael passed away. And having spent two or three
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meetings with Mr. Tohme, I testified I would not have touched it with a ten-foot pole, as I came to
know Mr. Tohme.

Q: Okay. So given your subsequent knowledge of Tohme Tohme, you would have not wanted to be
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involved back in 2009.

A: Certainly, if I did not have a direct relationship with Michael to be able to communicate with him,
that is correct.
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Q: Okay. And you consider Tohme Tohme in incompetent adviser. Is that correct?
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A: I'm not sure if the word incompetent... I just...

Q: Well, let's see, let's go to your deposition. I mean that's the word you use, so I'm just going off

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of the language you use. So if we go to Page 61, Lines 9 through 11, you stated, in part, that Mr.
Tohme is incompetent.

A: I...

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Q: I mean did I read that correctly?

A: Before that, I said he's a fraud, so I suppose if you ask me that today, I would change the word
incompetent to dishonest, or perhaps untruthful would be the right word.

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Q: Okay. I didn't know if you wanted to say that in public, but I went with the incompetent with that.

A: It...

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Q: All right. Can you describe for us... let's move on to retail and tour sponsorship deals. At a high
level, can you describe for us what tour sponsorships are?
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A: What tour sponsorships are?

Q: Right.
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A: Tour sponsorship is where a company generally presents a tour, affiliates with the artist, and as part
of that sponsorship, gets to have its name on all tour tickets advertising, et cetera. Often... sometimes
there's a commercial where either the artist appears in the commercial or lends his music to the
commercial, and there's sort of a tie in.
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Q: All right. Let's talk about entertainment properties. You were a part of this deal, right, with respect
to...

A: Entertainment properties... are you referring Chuck Sullivan?

Q: To the... yeah, Chuck Sullivan, the clothing line.


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A: Well, there were two deals with Chuck Sullivan, if I recall. There was the one with Stadium
Management Corporation to promote the Victory tour, when they replaced Don King. And then there
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was a potential clothing line that we negotiated a deal for.

Q: All right. So let's focus on the clothing line. So this is where Chuck Sullivan gave Michael Jackson
two advances. Is that correct?
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A: The contract, if I recall correctly, called for two advances. I don't recall if he paid the second
advance or not.
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Q: And the two advances were one for 18 million and the other for 10 million. Is that correct.
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A: Correct.

Q: But the clothing line never materialized. Is that correct?

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A: Yeah. I don't recall if maybe a few articles of clothing eventually came out, but in its full iteration, I
don't think it happened.

Q: Right. And this deal regarding the clothing line took place after the release of Thriller in 1982. Is
that correct?

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A: It occurred after the release of the Victory album in 1984.

Q: All right. So the answer to my question is yes, then right?

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A: Yeah. It was after 1982, yes.

Q: All right. So after Thriller, correct? And then I'll go after the Victory tour in 1984. Is that correct?

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A: Correct.

Q: And regardless of whether it materialized or not, the goal was to sell products at retail. Is that
correct?
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A: Correct.
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Q: Let's talk about the LA Gear deal. You wanted a shoe line for Michael Jackson, correct?

A: Well, Michael wanted a shoe line, and therefore, I wanted it for him, correct.

Q: Fair enough. But eventually, LA Gear developed a shoe line for Michael Jackson.
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A: Yes.

Q: And just... was there also a clothing line or solely a shoe line?

A: I don't recall if there were incidental items of clothing to go with the shoes, like a tee shirt. I don't
recall.
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Q: Okay. And the clothing... the shoe line... let's call it a shoe line... make sure we're on the same
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page... it was not related to a specific tour. Is that correct?

A: If I recall correctly, the intention was that it was going to tie in with the release of Michael's next
album, which turned out to be the Dangerous album. And I believe that...
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Q: Right, but I didn't ask you about an album, I asked you about a specific tour.

A: Well, there was a tour in connection with the Dangerous album.


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Q: Okay.
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A: A Dangerous tour.

Q: But the ultimate goal was to sell products at retail. Is that correct?

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A: Correct.

Q: Okay.

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Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Okay.

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Mr. Voth: All right. Let's talk about This Is It. You knew of the concert series known as This Is It,
correct?

A: The concerts that were...

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Q: Right. The concerts, right?

A: Yes.
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Q: You reached out to Randy Phillips to try to get involved. Is that correct?

A: Randy and I talked about possibly getting involved, yeah. I don't recall who called who.
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Q: Okay. Let's see if I can refresh your memory.

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I approach the Clerk to have a document marked for identification?
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Court Clerk: Exhibit 703-R is marked for identification.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor. I have a lot of exhibits here.

Q: All right, Mr. Branca, please go to Page 23 and Lines 3 through 7. And please let me know if
that refreshes your recollection.
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A: Well, this is what I testified to in March of 2012 about a conversation in 2009. I have no reason to
think I didn't say it, so it's fine.
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Q: Okay. So there you stated, "With respect to Michael Jackson, I got excited for him because I
thought it would be a nice comeback for him, and I spoke with Randy Phillips of AEG and I said
to him if you guys or Michael need any help in connection with these concerts, I'd be interested."
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Did I read that sentence correctly?

A: Correct.
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Q: All right. Let's briefly talk about the rehearsals and the footage with respect to the concert series,
This Is It. Michael Jackson was aware that the rehearsals were being recorded, correct?
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A: Correct. Recorded, I wouldn't use that word, I'd probably use the word videotaped. But I shouldn't
be quibbling.

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Q: Recorded videotape, but...

A: Sure.

Q: ...in essence, we're in agreement.

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A: Yeah.

Q: Michael Jackson actually insisted on this, correct?

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A: Well, Michael would often do this for his personal use to review the performances... the rehearsals.

Q: Which was his practice since you've known him since January of 1980, correct?

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A: Well, his practice was Michael recorded a lot things. But yeah, of course he knew that this was
being taped. ae
Q: All right. But with respect to his practice of either being videotaped or recorded, that was Michael
Jackson's practice since you've been working with him?

A: Well, I don't know if he did it on every rehearsal. I do know, for example, in the program we put up,
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called Bad 25, you see tape of Michael rehearsing, and he would do that to review how he looked to
prepare for the final taping and recording that was then meant for commercial release.

Q: Okay. And so let's continue with this discussion about the rehearsal footage. Michael Jackson
was planning on exploiting that rehearsal footage as part of a making of a tour program. Is that
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correct?

A: No. I don't believe that's correct. What I said in my deposition was that Michael was aware
that there was a taping, and that it was possible that aspects of the tape could be used in a
making of. If you're asking whether Michael would have ever commercially released a taping of
his performance at rehearsal, the answer is unequivocally and categorically no. Is it possible that
the tape of the dancer auditions or, if you recall, if you saw This Is It where there's a circle and Michael
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gets in the circle and fires his dancers, I could conceive that Michael would allow that to be used. As,
for example, bonus material on a DVD release of a film, or if he was doing a film, could a few seconds
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of that possibly be used leading into the show, yes. But if you're asking would a tape of Michael
rehearsing with missing sound, et cetera, no. If Michael was going to commercially release his
performance, it would be a multi-camera shoot with a noted director, audio engineer and a sound truck,
and it would have required, three, four, five or six different tapings. Michael was a perfectionist. He
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would never let anything go out that he did not deem to be perfect.

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 227-J, specifically Page 70.
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Mr. Weitzman: Is this in this notebook?


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Mr. Voth: No, it's not. Eventually, it'll show up on your screen, hopefully.

Mr. Camp: Page 70 of the exhibit, or...

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Mr. Voth: Page 70 of Exhibit 227-J.

Mr. Camp: Where is it? Is it the page number in the top corner or the...

Mr. Voth: Yeah. Page number in the top corner.

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Mr. Camp: Okay. Okay. Sorry, my bad.

Mr. Weitzman: Is this the August 2009 proceeding report?

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Mr. Voth: Yeah. It's a stipulated exhibit, and this is August 24, 2009...

Mr. Weitzman: In the Superior Court.

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Mr Voth: ...evidentiary hearing in Probate Court.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.


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Mr. Voth: And please go to Lines, Mr. Camp, 14 through 21, please.

Q: All right. So this is testimony by Mr. Branca, given August 21, 2009, in Lines 14 through 21 state of
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thought... 14 through 20 state of thought. "Now, we did advise that not only was Michael aware that
the rehearsals were being recorded, but that he actually insisted on it, which was his practice
since I've known him in January of 1980. And we were advised by Frank DiLeo that Michael
wanted that rehearsal, was planning on exploiting that rehearsal footage as part of making... of a
making of a tour program." Did I read that paragraph correctly?
mM

A: Correct.

Mr. Voth: Okay. And Your Honor, with respect to your Exhibit 227-J, I think petitioner reserved a
hearsay objection, so respondent moves into evidence Pages 51 through 91, which were the testimony
of Mr. Branca as an admission by party opponent.
a

Mr. Weitzman: First of all, it's hearsay. But I'm not understanding what the impeachment is.
Te

Judge Holmes: It doesn't have to be impeachment, it's admission. Is there a problem with that that you
to...

Mr. Weitzman: What's he... if he admitted an admission, it gives him... what's the admission?
w.

Judge Holmes: It doesn't. Mr. Voth.

Mr. Weitzman: I mean if he wants to ask a follow-up question, I can understand that. But he asked in
ww

the beginning. Just a suggestion.


om
Mr. Voth: Your Honor, okay, two-fold. Respondent's position is that as testimony given by Mr. Branca,
August 21, 2009 in Court are an admission by a party opponent, and therefore, hearsay does not apply
so this should come in under... as nonhearsay.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Let me check.

Mr. Weitzman: I hope you're not reading the code.

Judge Holmes: It's in the definition of hearsay. Let me check.

so
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, might I talk while you're reading, or should I wait?

Judge Holmes: Sure.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Mr. Branca testified about somebody trying to ??. So I'm not understanding what the
admission is. It certainly is not a statement by Michael Jackson, and it's Mr. Branca's recollection of
what Mr. DiLeo told him. And...

lJa
Judge Holmes: Hearsay nested within nonhearsay.

Mr. Weitzman: I forgot that I read the code right.


ae
Judge Holmes: Mr. Voth, is this a circuitous way of getting Mr. DiLeo's statement then?

Mr. Voth: No. But also, go to Mr. Branca's statement of mind as to why he made these assertions...
ich

Mr. Weitzman: So maybe that's what...

Mr. Voth: ...at the evidentiary hearing in August of 2009.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: So maybe that's what you should ask him.

Judge Holmes: Well, you can ask about Mr. DiLeo's statement. In general, a sworn statement, whether
it's deposition or prior trial testimony by a party opponent, is admissible at the motion of the movant in
this case, so that would be fine. But I'm deterred about this statement about DiLeo being within the
statements of Mr. Branca.
a

Mr. Voth: So Mr. Branca testified that he... as to what he relied on.
Te

Judge Holmes: That's kosher.

Mr. Voth: All right.


w.

Judge Holmes: That's fine.

Mr. Voth: Okay.


ww

Judge Holmes: Is that you want it for, that he relied on it?


om
Mr. Voth: He... okay. So this is something that he represented to the Court because he relied on this,
and I do think that there's an inconsistent statement with respect to that he testified that Michael would
have never want this out.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: Well, then he... Your Honor, with all due respect...

Judge Holmes: Okay. Here's the... here... no. Here's the nesting. We were advised by Frank DiLeo that
Michael wanted that rehearsal, was planning on exploiting that rehearsal footage as part of a making of
the tour program. That's a statement by Mr. Branca about something he was advised by Mr. DiLeo.

so
That's fine if it's limited to what he was advised by Mr. DiLeo. But nested within that is the further
statement that Michael wanted the rehearsal. That would be a statement of mental impression if it were
being made by Mr. DiLeo directly, but it's not. It's nested within two levels of hearsay, and I can't find
an exception for the mental impressions of the decedent here through Mr. DiLeo through Mr. Branca's

ck
prior testimony. Do you see a way around that one?

Mr. Voth: I think that Mr. Branca's reliance on these other statements and what he conveyed to the
Court in August of 2009, contradicts what he's conveying to the Court today.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: May I be heard?

Judge Holmes: Sure.


ae
Mr. Weitzman: Here's how I view this. It's Mr. Branca repeating what Mr. DiLeo said to him. And the
government wants to use... show that Mr. Jackson's state of mind is that he would "exploit" the video
and I'm...
ich

Judge Holmes: Right.

Mr. Weitzman: ...just betting it's to exploit it to make a rehearsal footage This Is It by film. I mean if
I'm just...
mM

Judge Holmes: No. I understand the reasoning correctly. That's fine you're adjusting it.

Mr. Weitzman: It is.

Judge Holmes: It's important to your theory in the case. But this part of it does have to be excluded,
Mr. Voth, because it's hearsay nested within hearsay, and it's inadmissible. So this part of it goes out.
a

Mr. Voth: All right. To the extent that there are other admissions by a party opponent...
Te

Judge Holmes: Based on this, yes.

Mr. Voth: They come in... right. No. I understand that's what... given that there was an overall hearsay
w.

objection to all of Mr. Branca's testimony...

Judge Holmes: Right.


ww

Mr. Voth: ...in the evidentiary hearing.


om
Judge Holmes: That doesn't work.

Mr. Voth: Correct.

n.c
Judge Holmes: He's the party opponent.

Mr. Voth: All right.

Judge Holmes: With this particular cite ??...

so
Mr. Voth: If I could...

Judge Holmes: ...which is important to your case. I understand that. It has to be excluded for the

ck
reasons I've stated.

Mr. Voth: Yeah. One moment, Your Honor.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Sure.

Mr. Voth: One last shot, Your Honor. ae


Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Voth: Frank DiLeo has passed away, correct?


ich
Mr. Branca: Correct.

Mr. Voth: Then we don't have Frank DiLeo here.

Mr. Weitzman: He's not signing a declaration.


mM

Mr. Voth: I'm not... I'm not bringing it under... I'm not speaking of dying declaration type of testimony.
Given that the declarant is not available, that might be a way of getting around it.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't think that helps. He wasn't under oath. This portion of the response should be
excluded. I'm sorry. Just for the record, when I say he wasn't under oath, I would refer to Mr. DiLeo.
a

Judge Holmes: Yes. No. I understand that actually. Well, how do you get around Mr. DiLeo's not being
under oath? I'll accept that he's unavailable and that the government did not procure his unavailability.
Te

Mr. Weitzman: Well, we don't. We don't.

Judge Holmes: I understand. Nevertheless, there's still a problem that this was not a base where this
w.

was prior testimony about Mr. DiLeo, was it? Is there another exception to hearsay, or can you give me
a definition of hearsay?

Mr. Voth: The other exception would be that it goes to Mr. Blanca's state of mind with the information
ww

that was given to him.


om
Judge Holmes: Well, we know he... he can testify about what he believed Mr. DiLeo said, but that
doesn't get you where you need to go, which is that you need to state an alleged statement from Mr.
Jackson so said he was planning to do a This is It type movie. Help me out here, Mr. Voth. Can you
think of something that makes this not a hearsay statement by Mr. Jackson?

n.c
Mr. Voth: Well, we have a vicarious position by an agent given that Frank DiLeo was his manager at
the time.

Judge Holmes: How about that one, Mr. Weitzman. He's got the old...

so
Mr. Weitzman: I don't think that goes with hearsay on hearsay on hearsay on hearsay.

Judge Holmes: But we take each level of hearsay separately. So we have Mr. Jackson's testify... or

ck
testify... Mr. Jackson allegedly saying something about his state of mind. So that's the exception to
hearsay that you would have a mental impression resort, something like that. You have Mr. DiLeo
stating what Mr. Jackson said. And Mr. DiLeo is not with us anymore. Mr. DiLeo is not testifying under
oath. Yeah. This remains excluded, Mr. Voth.

lJa
Mr. Voth: Even if it... if I may, Your Honor...

Judge Holmes: Oh yeah. You can establish your record.

Mr. Voth: Just a simple offer of proof...


ae
Judge Holmes: Mm-hmm.
ich

Mr. Voth: ...would be that Mr.... that there's been testimony that at this time, when the rehearsals were
taking place. Mr. DiLeo was Michael Jackson's manager, and therefore, would come in as a vicarious
admission of Michael Jackson.
mM

Judge Holmes: Let's try that one again. Yes, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't think that changes anything. If there's a question from the Court, this is just too
far removed. It's not reliable. It's not a vicarious admission. It's just not. So asking Mr. Branca what he
meant... what he thought Mr. DiLeo meant is one thing, to get down to Mr. Jackson and to use it as an
admission that I really was going to do a rehearsal footage. Which, by the way, his family filed an
objection to all of this saying Michael wouldn't never release his rehearsal footage. That's part of what
a

this whole litigation was about.


Te

Judge Holmes: Wait, wait. The family filed an objection to the estate.

Mr. Weitzman: Correct. That's right. That Michael Jackson would have never allowed... which by the
way, is probably 1000 percent true... footage of his rehearsals... raw rehearsal footage with incomplete
w.

and fandented audio with him starting and stopping ever ??. So what the government would like Your
Honor to do is let Mr. Branca's...

Judge Holmes: Okay.


ww

Mr. Weitzman: ...statement about what Mr. DiLeo...


om
Judge Holmes: I get it. I get it. Okay. Wrongly, Mr. Voth, what you're asking me to do is take a
determination under Rule of Evidence 801(d)(2)(D), that Mr. DiLeo was the party, the agent or
employee and the matter was in the scope of that relationship while it existed. This particular exception

n.c
to the definition of hearsay requires that the declarant be the parties agent or employee. Here, we're
talking about the estate and particularly Messrs. Branca and Frank... Frank McClain?

Mr. Weitzman: McClain.

so
Judge Holmes: McClain. And Mr. DiLeo was not any of their agents. He was possibly an agent to Mr.
Jackson, who is not a party here. It's his estate. So this thin slicing of the rules of evidence before us...
your proffer is made. The statement remains, excluded. Let's move on. Pages 51 through 91 are
admitted, except for this contested statement on Page... help me here, Mr. Rosefsky. What page is that?

ck
Mr. Rosefsky: 62.

Judge Holmes: 62. Thank you.

lJa
Mr. Voth: All right. So Michael Jackson passes away. And eventually, you got a call from Jim
Gianopulos. Is that correct? ae
Mr. Weitzman: I'm just going...

Mr. Branca: Correct.


ich
Mr. Weitzman: ...could I have that question reread? I don't think I heard it correctly. Or could you
repeat it?

Court Clerk: I can read it, but I mean...


mM

Judge Holmes: No, no, no, no. Mr. Voth, what was the question?

Mr. Voth: Sure. So after Michael Jackson passed away, you got a call from Jim Gianopulos.

Mr. Weitzman: You're asking Mr. Branca if he got a call from Jim Gianopulos? And...

Mr. Voth: Yeah, and is that correct.


a

Mr. Branca: I don't recall if I got the call or if someone else got the call, but a call came in from Mr.
Te

Gianopulos.

Q: Okay. And at the time, he was the chairman of Fox Film Entertainment.
w.

A: 20th Century Fox, yeah.

Q: Okay. And he had heard about the rehearsal footage? Is that correct?
ww

A: Correct.
om
Q: And in talking about the footage... so we have different people that looked at the footage. Randy
Phillips looked at the footage. Is that correct?

A: Yes.

n.c
Q: So did Kenny Ortega?

A: Correct.

so
Q: Have you looked at the footage?

A: Correct.

ck
Q: You then invited studio executives to look at the footage?

A: Well first, if I recall correctly, Mr. Ortega tried to put a segment of the footage into usable form. You
have to recall that there were audio gaps. This was footage taken on a handheld video camera. It was

lJa
just not a professional recording. And so in order to present it to a studio head, you sort of had to do a
bit of color correction, and often you had to fill in any gaps that were in the audio so it could be
presented to give you an example of what it might look like if the work were taken to try to put it into
usable form.
ae
Q: And you recall stating that you, in essence, only had five minutes of the footage to show to the
studio executive?
ich
A: I don't recall. If that was from my deposition, then, yeah, I'll stand by that.

Q: So let's look at Page 54 of your summons interview, Lines 17 through 19. And let me know if - -
just take a moment to read that to yourself. So we're at Page 54 of your summons interview, Lines 17
through 19.
mM

A: I'm sorry, what... Page 54. Which lines?

Q: Of your... should be a binder of your summons interview. And Lines 17 through 18. And let me
know if that refreshes your recollection as to...

A: Correct. I read it.


a

Q: ...your...
Te

A: Sure.

Q: So it's five minutes of footage.


w.

A: That's what it says.

Q: And that's what you stated at the summons interview, correct?


ww

A: Correct. It was...
om
Q: Okay.

A: ...five years ago, but yeah.

n.c
Q: All right. Eventually, you received different offers from the studios, correct, regarding trying to do a
movie.

A: Correct.

so
Q: The advances offered by the studios ranges from 25 million to 60 million. Is that correct?

A: Not initially, but...

ck
Q: Eventually.

A: Eventually.

lJa
Q: Okay. Paramount was interested.

A: Correct.

Q: Universal was interested.


ae
A: I think so.
ich

Q: Fox was interested.

A: Yes.
mM

Q: Probably Sony was interested.

A: Yes.

Q: And so then, the estate ended up doing a film with Sony and AEG. Is that correct?

A: Well, there was another hurdle before that. We proposed to do the project with Sony Pictures, but
a

Michael's family filed an injunction in probate court asking...


Te

Q: No, that's fine, but I'm only asking about what happened eventually...

A: Well, we had to get past the...


w.

Q: ...despite the hurdles. Right.

A: ...we had to have a court hearing on whether...


ww

Q: I'm sure Mr. Weitzman will clarify all the hurdles that...
om
A: Okay.

Q: But eventually, you reached a deal with Sony and AEG, is that correct, regarding the film?

n.c
A: Correct.

Q: Okay. Now, regarding the footage of Michael Jackson, you didn't believe that AEG would have been
so bold to put out footage of Michael Jackson without your consent. Is that correct?

so
A: Correct.

Q: You would have sued AEG if they tried to do the film based on Michael Jackson's rehearsal
footage without your consent. Is that correct?

ck
A: I suppose so, if we could have...

Q: All right. So yeah...

lJa
A: ...afforded the lawsuit.

Q: Let's see if I can refresh your recollection.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.


ae
Judge Holmes: Go ahead.
ich

Mr. Voth: All right. So please go to Page 77 of your summons interview in the binder. And please go to
Lines 23 and 24, and let me know when you're done reading.

A: Yes, I'm ready.


mM

Q: Okay. So then the question I asked you was you would have sued AEG if they tried to do the film
based on Michael Jackson's rehearsal footage without your consent. Is that correct.

A: Correct.

Q: Indeed, you would have sought to enjoin them. Is that correct?


a

A: We would have tried, I suppose. It's a hypothetical question.


Te

Q: Well, let's go to your summons interview.

A: I was intent on negotiating a settlement.


w.

Q: No, that's fine. There's no question pending, Mr. Branca.

A: Okay. Sorry.
ww

Q: All right. So let's go to... see if I can refresh your memory to see what you stated in your
om
summons interview. I know this is a long time ago, so I understand. And so please go to Page 82,
Lines 10 and 11. And please, let me know when you're done reading Lines 10 and 11.

A: Yes. I read it.

n.c
Q: Okay. So the question I'd asked you is, "Indeed, you would have sought to enjoin AEG. They
tried to put out the footage without your consent." Is that correct?

A: I just don't think they would have done that.

so
Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Can I just make an objection. There's a question pending the page before.
And then there's a whole answer in that paragraph. And I think that would be appropriate to read the
question and answer, rather than cherry pick a particular sentence that could then be manipulated if the

ck
government's...

Judge Holmes: You can always ask to have more context put in after this...

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Can I ask it in advance?

Judge Holmes: No. Go ahead, Mr. Voth. What are you asking to have admitted into evidence, if
anything?
ae
Mr. Voth: That the estate would have sought to enjoin AEG if they tried to put out the rehearsal
footage of Michael Jackson without the estate's consent.
ich
A: Yes. I believe we would have done that, but I don't believe they ever would have tried to put it out
without us.

Q: Okay.
mM

Mr. Voth: All right. Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 248-J, and specifically, let's go to Page
4. We're looking at the term... please go back up to Page 1 for a second.

Mr. Camp: Oh, I'm sorry.

Mr. Voth: So we're looking at the term sheet regarding the Michael Jackson footage. And now, please
go to Page 4, Mr. Camp. No, stop. Stop on Page 4. Thank you.
a

Q: First sentence... first full sentence of Page 4 that reads...


Te

A: I'm sorry. I don't see Page 4 here. Is this Page 4?

Q: All right. It's at the bottom. Right. So we're only looking at the...
w.

A: Okay. All right.

Q: ...first full sentence, which states, in part, "So Columbia shall have final ?? of the picture provided
ww

MJC shall have the right to require that Columbia not include identified portions of the footage or any
newly created material, ?? picture and the other versions which then Michael Jackson in a negative
om
light." Did I read that portion correctly?

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: So in essence, the estate ensured that Michael Jackson would be presented in a positive way.

A: Correct.

Q: This was part of your rebranding effort.

so
A: It's part of our effort to represent Michael... and yeah, absolutely.

Q: In the best possible way. Okay. Now, so with the film, This Is It, there were certain things that you

ck
wanted to erase, such as "so Michael Jackson's a weirdo." Is that correct?

A: I never thought Michael Jackson was a weirdo.

lJa
Q: No, no, no. I didn't say that you... no, let's be clear. I never stated that you made that representation,
Mr. Branca. So... the question I had for you that with the film, This Is It, it was your objective to erase
in other people's minds, right, that things such as Michael Jackson was a weirdo because, in your belief,
that's not the case.
ae
A: Well, we had, at least, two objectives with the movie. Obviously, there was a tabloid sense of
Michael that you would read tabloids and they would depict him in a certain way. John McClain and I
viewed Michael very differently, as a genius, as Berry Gordy said, the greatest entertainer who ever
ich
lived. And although Michael would never have released his performance in this rehearsal footage... and
in that sense, the family was correct when they sought to enjoin it... we didn't have Michael. And the
first time I saw the footage, and I saw Michael speak to his keyboard player and speak to Kenny Ortega
and speak to the dancers, where you can see he was totally in control, and you can see him as the great
artist that he was, both John and I felt this depicts Michael as we knew him.
mM

Q: Right.

A: As a great artist whose music was internationally acclaimed. And so our feeling was that this would
go a long way toward establishing, in the general public, a different sense of who Michael was, and
reminding everybody that Michael Jackson didn't get where he was without being a genius and a great
artist and a great performer. We also felt that the movie would introduce Michael to new generations of
a

fans, because as it turned out, families went to see the picture. My own kids, when they were younger,
I'll never forget taking them to see the movie. And oh, they were maybe seven or... and in the back seat
Te

all their friends were talking about how cool Michael was, that he was much more cool than Star Wars.
That was another thing that we wanted to accomplish. And quite frankly, given the desperate financial
straights that we were in, where we were trying to preserve the assets to live for another day so we
could eventually pass them down to Michael's children, we needed the money.
w.

Q: And this deal regarding This Is It had to do... was also negotiated with Columbia, which is a part of
Sony. Is that correct?
ww

A: Correct.
om
Q: And the estate gave Columbia the right to use the footage of Michael Jackson, correct?

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: And the right to use Michael Jackson's name, correct?

A: That part and parcel of the use of the footage and the copyright and the footage, correct.

Q: All right. Let's move on to the deal with Bravado. Now, AEG had engaged Bravado to handle the

so
tour merchandise for the concert series, correct?

A: Correct.

ck
Q: And the estate of Michael Jackson renegotiated whatever arrangements were in place between AEG
and Bravado, correct?

A: Correct.

lJa
Q: Now, when Michael Jackson was alive, he approved a number of Bravado designs, correct?

A: I wasn't there, but I believe that to be the case.


ae
Q: Okay. But you have no reason to doubt that, correct?

A: No.
ich

Q: Okay. All right. In fact, did he approve 295 designs of the 300 presented by Bravado?

A: Sounds like a lot, but I would defer to Randy Phillips or somebody who was actually in the room
when that happened.
mM

Q: All right. Respective of the number of designs, you were aware that Michael Jackson had approved
a number of designs presented by Bravado.

A: Correct.

Q: Correct? Okay. And Michael Jackson's prior approval impacted your decision to partner with
a

Bravado, correct?
Te

A: Correct. It lended a sense of authenticity.

Q: Okay. And so the estate of Michael Jackson partnered with Bravado because they were already in
place, in essence.
w.

A: I mean there was a contract in place between AEG and Bravado. I cannot recall if Michael was a
party to the contract. And so we... the easiest course of action was to continue with Bravado, and as you
said, the fact that Michael had approved some of the designs made it even more compelling.
ww

Q: And so part of what... why you went with Bravado was because they were the incumbent, correct?
om
A: They were the incumbent. They had, as you mentioned, approved designs, and they were one of the,
you know, major music industry merchandising companies.

n.c
Q: And you worked with Tom Bennett of Bravado, correct?

A: Correct.

Q: And eventually, finalized a series of agreements.

so
A: Correct.

Q: Correct? One dealing with the tour merchandise relating to the concert series, This Is It.

ck
A: My recollection is a little fuzzy, but I'm sure that's the case. It was almost eight years ago.

Q: Okay. Then you recall that there was another merchandise agreement that did not relate to the tour

lJa
itself.

A: Yeah. ae
Q: Okay.

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, please pull up Exhibit 236-J, and please go to Paragraph 3.
ich
Q: So we talked about this at your deposition where, if you look at Paragraph 3, you state, "Ensure to
not license Michael Jackson's name and likeness for videogames, receipts." Is that correct?

A: Correct.
mM

Q: The same with respect to...

A: Well, I don't know... I wouldn't say it that way. It's not that we didn't agree to license Michael's...

Q: Well, you tell us to retain...

A: We withheld those...
a

Q: I'm sorry...
Te

A: ...merchandise for Bravado to participate in or have the right to be the agent for.

Q: There was some discussion. Could you repeat your answer, please.
w.

A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. The way I would characterize it is there were a list of products that we were not
giving Bravado the right to either license or receive a commission in the event any deal was reached.
ww

Q: Okay. So these are... so the estate... and then specifically ??... retained the sole rights with respect
to... we talked about video games, also digital products, and even films, correct, such as the film based
om
on the concert rehearsals for the This Is It concert series. Is that a correct statement?

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: And when you entered into the deal with Bravado, Bravado paid you... paid the estate in advance?

A: Correct.

Q: Of about 10 million.

so
A: I believe that's the case.

Q: Okay. And Bravado served as the exclusive merchandising company for the estate with respect to

ck
the Jackson branded merchandise. Is that correct?

A: Yeah. I think...

lJa
Q: Other than these other...

A: For the so-called AEG merchandise, I believe, but yes.


ae
Q: What about with respect to the general merchandise?

A: You're right. Correct.


ich
Q: Okay. All right. Let's move on to Cirque Du Soleil. Michael Jackson was a fan of Cirque Du Soleil.

A: I believe he was, yes. Certainly in the early days.

Q: And are you qualifying your answer when you say I believe he was or...
mM

A: Well, Michael and I attended the first Cirque Du Soleil tent show in Santa Monica in approximately
1988 back... I mean it's a long, long time ago. I could not testify with personal knowledge whether he...
and he was a big Cirque fan at that time. Cirque Du Soleil was brand new. I could not testify from
personal knowledge that over the last five or ten years of his life whether or not he retained the same
enthusiasm for Cirque. I do not know. But I do know, based on my personal knowledge...
a

Q: Sure.
Te

A: ...in the '80's, that he was a Cirque fan.

Q: Okay.
w.

Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, by the way, I know this has been...

Mr. Voth: As a continuing...


ww

Mr. Weitzman: ...indicated before, exactly. There is a continued objection in the relevancy of all this
that none of these activities were reasonably foreseeable. And I just thought it was about the right time
om
to make another objection to keep the record clear.

Judge Holmes: The objection is noted. I think Mr. Voth's theory is that if somebody in Mr. Jackson's
circle or Mr. Jackson himself talked about some of these projects before Mr. Jackson died, they must be

n.c
foreseeable. Is that, more or less, the government's theory here?

Mr. Voth: That's part of it. I mean we have a combination... I'll give you our best argument when we
try to move all of the Cirque documents into evidence. But the outset, I'll say, is that there was interest
in February of 2009 by an investor, named Jack Wishna. Respondent got in touch with Cirque Du

so
Soleil. Cirque Du Soleil confirmed that, indeed, there was a conversation between Daniel Lamarre,
who was the CEO of Cirque Du Soleil and Jack Wishna back in 2009. Cirque Du Soleil indicated that
Jack Wishna wasn't able to prove that indeed he had the rights... the necessary rights to Michael
Jackson's name and likeness...

ck
Judge Holmes: Okay. That's for later. I think your answer is a yes, but that's part of your theory.

Mr. Voth: Well, yes, but I didn't know if you wanted me to develop it or...

lJa
Judge Holmes: No, no. Just looking for a yes. Your objection is noted, Mr. Weitzman. And...

Mr. Weitzman: Well, I just wanted him to respond.

Judge Holmes: Sure.


ae
Mr. Weitzman: I understand what Mr. Voth's position is. What he hasn't told the Court is that he had a
ich
written interview. And his questions assert, the responses assert, and they indicated they never, N-E-V-
E-R, had any discussion with anybody associated with Michael Jackson...

Judge Holmes: Right. And Mr. Wishna wasn't fully served.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: ...until he died.

Judge Holmes: Yeah.

Mr. Weitzman: And that Mr. Wishna called them, and they said if you have authorization to negotiate
or make proposals for Mr. Jackson, please provide us with that information, and they never heard from
Mr. Wishna again.
a

Mr. Voth: I don't dispute what...


Te

Judge Holmes: Actual negotiations are not the same foreseeability. And foreseeability is not the same
as attribution to one of the three disputed assets remaining in the estate. These are the questions. But
you can go ahead, Mr. Voth...
w.

Mr. Voth: All right.

Judge Holmes: ...and start with your record on behalf of the government.
ww

Mr. Voth: Well, yeah. It's the government's plan to... when we... as we have discussed, there're several
om
documents... several categories of documents that petitioner has objected to and respondent will, at that
time, have to make a discovery argument.

Judge Holmes: We have to go through those eventually, yes.

n.c
Mr. Voth: So. One moment, Your Honor. We have that discussion that...

Judge Holmes: Go ahead.

so
Mr. Voth: All right. So you mentioned that the very first visit to the Cirque Du Soleil show... tent show
in Santa Monica... and then Michael Jackson eventually visited Cirque's headquarters in Montreal. Is
that correct?

ck
A: I heard that he took his kids there on a sightseeing trip.

Q: Okay. So yes, he did visit the headquarters of Cirque Du Soleil.

lJa
A: I believe that's true.

Q: Okay. All right. Let's move... so after Michael Jackson's death, can you tell us who is Franco
Dragone?
ae
A: Franco Dragone is a creative person, a director who was once employed by Cirque Du Soleil.

Q: And after death, did he...- he reached out to you about interest in doing a Michael Jackson themed
ich
show?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: And Franco Dragone used to be with Cirque Du Soleil, correct?


mM

A: Yes. He had left many years before though.

Q: Right.

A: I think the last show he created was the O show, which was created about ten or 15 years ago.
a

Q: Okay. And then, approximately Cirque Du Soleil reached out to you in August of 2009.
Te

A: Well actually, it... I think it... it... what happened was I got a call from Rene Angelil, who was Celine
Dion's husband and manager, who was, if I recall, from Montreal. And he was acquainted with both
Guy Laliberte and Franco Dragone. And he called me to ask if we'd be interested in having a discussion
with Cirque Du Soleil about a possible show.
w.

Q: And this was around August of 2009, correct?

A: I don't recall the exact month, if it was August, September, October, somewhere in that timeframe.
ww

Q: All right. Let me see if I can refresh your memory.


om
Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I approach the - -

Judge Holmes: You may.

n.c
Court Clerk: Exhibit 704-R is marked for identification.

Mr. Voth: All right. So please take a moment to read that to yourself, and let me know when you're
done, Mr. Branca.

so
Mr. Branca: I've read it.

Q: Okay. So you had mentioned Angelil and others. So it was around August of... late-August of 2009

ck
then that...

A: Yes.

lJa
Q: Okay.

A: Very close to Michael's birthday. ae


Q: All right. So then eventually, you met with... and we're still in 2009, before Mr. Weitzman's
clarification and helped me out... eventually you met with Guy Laliberte and Daniel Lamarre, correct?

A: Correct. The name is pronounced Guy (Gee).


ich

Q: Guy Laliberte. Thank you.

A: Correct.
mM

Q: And so this meeting with Guy Laliberte and Daniel Lamarre took place at Cirque's headquarters.

A: Correct.

(cell phone music)

Mr. Branca: It wasn't even Michael Jackson.


a

Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.


Te

Mr. Voth: All right. Got several interruptions that... and Guy Laliberte is one of the founders of Cirque
Du Soleil. Is that correct?
w.

Mr. Branca: Correct.

Q: Somebody coughed. They couldn't hear if you said yes.


ww

A: Correct.
om
Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, we're having a printer.

Mr. Voth: Can I have a moment, Your Honor. There's a lot of distractions.

n.c
Q: And it was Rene Angelil that introduced you to Guy Laliberte.

A: Yeah. Correct.

Q: All right.

so
A: At least on the phone. He was not there at the meeting.

Q: Okay. And Daniel Lamarre was, at the time, Cirque Du Soleil's CEO.

ck
A: Correct.

Q: And Guy Laliberte wanted to do a traveling show. Is that correct?

lJa
A: Correct.

Q: And this eventually ended up being the Immortal show.

A: Yes. Yeah.
ae
Q: And you wanted the show to be more like a concert experience. Is that correct?
ich

A: Correct. Yeah. Obviously, the This Is It concerts have been... have not been performed, so the idea
was to create a live experience that would generate the excitement of being at a Michael Jackson show.

Q: But not a Broadway type of play, correct?


mM

A: I don't... not that different from the Broadway play, but correct.

Q: Right. But you all... you wanted to do a residence show. Is that correct?

A: Correct.
a

Q: And so eventually, you ended up doing a traveling and a residence show. Is that correct?
Te

A: Correct.

Q: And you're familiar with the Beatles Love show, correct?


w.

A: Correct.

Q: And with respect to the residence show, some of the reasons why you wanted to do a residence
show was because the Beatles had one. Is that correct?
ww

A: Well, because Cirque had created a number of shows in Las Vegas that I thought were quite good.
om
Q: Including the Beatles Love show?

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: And also, you were interested in doing a residence show in Las Vegas to continue Michael Jackson's
legacy.

A: Correct.

so
Q: And obviously, generate income.

A: Absolutely.

ck
Q: Now, you studied the Beatles Love show. Is that correct?

A: Well, once we agreed that we were going to do the show, yes, I went to see it five, six, seven, eight,

lJa
nine, ten times.

Q: You viewed the Beatles Love show as your natural competition in Las Vegas.
ae
A: There is a lot of competition in Las Vegas. But obviously, there was an Elvis show, there was a - -
which ended up closing... losing money... and there was the Beatles show. They were based on the
music of the Beatles and the music of Elvis, so yeah, they would be natural competitors, although
perhaps, appealing to different generations of fans.
ich

Q: Okay. So they would be... I mean that's exactly what you stated at your deposition, that they were...
the Beatles would be a natural competition, correct?

A: Sure.
mM

Q: Okay.

A: As would MJ Live.

Mr. Voth: I move to strike that answer. There's no question pending, Your Honor.
a

Judge Holmes: Please continue with his answer. That one's overruled.
Te

Mr. Voth: One moment.

Q: Now, with respect to the residence show, you wanted it to be something similar to a theme park ride,
planetarium experience.
w.

A: I'm not sure if... I'm not sure I wanted...

Q: Okay. No, if you're not sure, you're not sure. I don't want you...
ww

A: Yep.
om
Q: ...to guess.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor. Your Honor, may I approach the clerk to have a document

n.c
marked for identification.

Judge Holmes: You may.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 705-R is marked for identification.

so
Mr. Voth: Just take a moment to read the email to yourself and let me know when you're done.

Mr. Branca: Okay.

ck
Q: Okay. So the question was you wanted the show to be similar to a theme park ride planetarium
experience.

lJa
A: I think the emphasis there would be on theme park ride, but yes, that is what...

Q: Okay. Theme Park. Okay. Not specifically with respect to this email, but let's see if you remember.
You also wanted a afford the experience. Is that correct?

A: If at all possible.
ae
Q: So the answer is yes...
ich

A: Yeah, if at all possible.

Q: You wanted a Michael Jackson hologram.


mM

A: Yes.

Q: To bring Michael Jackson to life.

A: His performance, yes.

Q: Okay. You also wanted surround sound at each seat.


a

A: Correct.
Te

Q: You wanted the show to be beyond what Cirque had ever done before, correct?

A: Correct.
w.

Q: Because Michael Jackson always liked to be a pioneer.

A: Absolutely, always pushed the limits.


ww

Q: Okay. All right. Let's delve a little bit more into the actual residence show. So the residence show is
om
located at the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Las Vegas.

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: Correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: Mandalay Bay is at the far end of the strip.

so
A: Yes, it is.

Q: You needed to attract people there.

ck
A: Correct. I mean it would... yeah.

Q: Okay.

lJa
A: Well, plus people that stay there. It's really three hotels: Mandalay Bay, Delano, which used to be
the Hotel, and Four Seasons. ae
Q: Right.

A: But they're also linked to the Luxor and Excalibur.


ich
Q: Now, at one point, you considered turning Mandalay Bay into Neverland. Is that correct?

A: We talked about it.

Q: Okay. And I think we talked about it before also that at one point you did have a Michael Jackson
mM

museum.

A: During the run of the Immortal Show, the traveling show, we did have a Michael Jackson experience
museum where we had Michael's Rolls Royce limousine and various... the artifacts from Neverland.

Q: Okay. Now, you've gone to the Mandalay Bay to see Michael Jackson ONE, correct?
a

A: Sure, absolutely.
Te

Q: Several times.

A: Many times.
w.

Q: Is it correct that the customer service desk at the Mandalay Bay is marked by a large line featuring
Michael Jackson's name and likeness?

A: Well, it's the key art from the show.


ww

Q: Okay.
om
A: It's not actually a photo, it's sort of a - - what do you say... an animated rendition of Michael of key
art from the show.

n.c
Q: Okay. And the hotel reception in the lobby has a giant statute of a Michael Jackson.

A: We just installed that, yes, a few months ago. It came from the promotion of Michael's HIStory
album, where he came down the Thames on a barge.

so
Q: Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask you that question. That's a great story. Now, the statute also has a
video of Michael Jackson playing on all four sides, right?

A: We... yeah. We put Michael's videos in the check-in area that was installed a few months, late last

ck
year.

Q: And it shows that it's authorized by the estate of Michael Jackson, correct?

lJa
A: I hope so.

Q: All right. The name of the theater at the Mandalay Bay is the Michael Jackson ONE Theater,
correct?

A: Correct. That's the name of the show.


ae
Q: Right. The theater itself is called Michael Jackson ONE Theater. Is that...
ich

A: Correct.

Q: Okay. The Mandalay Bay has signs throughout its premises directing show goers to go to the
Michael Jackson ONE Theater.
mM

A: Correct.

Q: There's a Michael Jackson ONE store next to the theater that sells Michael Jackson merchandise.

A: Correct.
a

Q: Most of which are labeled as being made under license from the estate of Michael Jackson.
Te

A: I would... perhaps some. I don't recall.

Q: And from our deposition, you stated that, in essence, each item that's part of the store has been
approved by the estate of Michael Jackson.
w.

A: You mean the merchandise?

Q: The merchandise.
ww

A: Yeah.
om
Q: Correct. And before you enter the theater, there's several images of Michael Jackson. Is that correct?

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: And the estate approved the images that are... that appear right before one enters the theater. Is that
correct?

A: Absolutely.

so
Q: As you enter the theater, there's a possibility of posing in front of an image of Michael Jackson and
have a professional photographer take a picture.

ck
A: Well, we have the paparazzi characters from the show...

Q: Okay.

lJa
A: ...where the fans who come in can walk the red carpet and get pictures taken by the paparazzi from
the show.

Q: And then the theater patrons can then purchase a souvenir photo if they so decide.

A: Absolutely, yeah.
ae
Q: Okay. And there's a... inside the theater, there's a concession stand, correct?
ich

A: They sell food, drinks, yes.

Q: Okay. And part of it is decorated with the MJ crown trademark. Is that correct?
mM

A: Correct.

Q: Also, near the entrance to the theater, there's a King of Pop slot machine. Is that correct?

A: There is a King of Pop slot machine in the casino, yes. Well, yeah, Michael Jackson's slot machine.

Q: Okay. But there's one that's close to the boutique store that's next to the theater of Michael Jackson
a

ONE. Is that correct?


Te

A: They move it around from time to time. I've never figured out the strategy of moving that slot
machine...

Q: All right.
w.

A: ...since it's a popular slow machine. But usually, it's close to the box office.

Q: Okay. All right. Let's talk about the show itself. During the show, you hear recordings of Michael
ww

Jackson's voice. Is that correct?


om
A: You hear recordings of Michael Jackson's music, not just his voice.

Q: No. We'll take it step-by-step. You hear recordings of Michael Jackson's voice?

n.c
A: Correct.

Q: Okay. There's also videos of Michael Jackson that come and go. Is that correct?

A: Correct.

so
Q: Sometimes you see images, correct?

A: Correct.

ck
Q: Sometimes you see his video, correct?

A: Correct.

lJa
Q: You also hear a song, correct?

A: Correct.

Q: His choreography, correct.


ae
A: Correct.
ich

Q: And there's obviously other characters that are part of the show, correct?

A: Yes.
mM

Q: And that we have a so-called Four Misfits. Is that correct, also?

A: Correct.

Q: And each one of those Misfits is given an iconic item representative of Michael Jackson. Is that
correct?
a

A: Correct.
Te

Q: And towards the end, are... the gates of Neverland, they are somewhat part of the show. Is that
correct?

A: Yes.
w.

Q: Okay.

A: Not the actual gates, but a depiction of the gates.


ww

Q: Yeah. Like, is it a virtual depiction of the gates? Is that correct?


om
A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

n.c
Mr. Voth: All right. Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 567-J? Is that... and so...

Mr. Camp: 57... did you want...

so
Mr. Voth: No, no. 567-J, yeah.

Mr. Camp: Sorry.

ck
Mr. Voth: And now we're going back to the film This Is It. Is it appropriate to term this key art? Or
what's the proper term?

Mr. Branca: Key art. Key art.

lJa
Q: Key art. And in conjunction in working with Sony, the estate of Michael Jackson approved this key
art, correct? ae
A: Yes.

Q: Okay.
ich
Mr. Voth: Can you please pull up Exhibit 568-J?

Q: All right. So this is with respect to the Immortal tour. The estate of Michael Jackson in working with
Cirque de Soleil also approved this key art, correct?
mM

A: Correct.

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, please pull up Exhibit 570-J.

Q: All right. So if you look at the top one, the estate approved that image?

A: Correct.
a

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor. There's the printer that's distracting me.
Te

Q: Okay. So let's start with the first image on the left. Or... is this an image of Michael Jackson's Beat It
from 1982, the one on the left?
w.

A: I'm not sure if it's Beat It or Thriller.

Q: Okay. So Beat It or Thriller for the one in... the first one starting from the left?
ww

A: Correct.
om
Q: And so before I move on to the other four image... the other remaining three images, so the bottom
four images, the estate of Michael Jackson approved these images, correct?

A: Correct.

n.c
Q: The second one referenced Michael Jackson's Smooth Criminal from 1987. Is that correct?

A: '88. Yes. Correct.

so
Q: '88? Okay. I... what's the third one?

A: You know, I would defer to Karen Langford. It could be You Are Not Alone, but I bet we could be
informed by two of the fans in the audience.

ck
Q: All right. We'll move on. And the fourth one would be Billie Jean?

A: Billie Jean.

lJa
Q: And that was in 1982? Approximately?

A: '83.

Q: '83? Thank you.


ae
A: Although that may be from Motown 25, which would be '84.
ich

Q: Okay.

Mr. Voth: All right. You can remove the Exhibit.


mM

Q: All right. Let's talk about protecting the brand of Michael Jackson. Now, since you officially got
involved with the estate of Michael Jackson, you then instructed attorneys for the estate to protect all
intellectual property of the estate. Is that correct?

A: Correct.

Q: And that would include copyrights?


a

A: Correct.
Te

Q: Trademarks?

A: Correct.
w.

Q: And Michael Jackson's right of publicity?

A: Correct.
ww

Q: By all means reasonably necessary, correct?


om
A: Reasonably necessary.

Q: All right. And since July of 2009, the estate has actively enforced all intellectual property rights of

n.c
the estate, correct?

A: That's probably correct.

Q: All right.

so
Mr. Voth: So Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 304-J and see if it refreshes the witness's
testimony. And specifically, please go to Paragraph 15. I'm only seeking to refresh his memory.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Refresh his memory of what? I thought he said...

Mr. Voth: Oh.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: I thought he answered in the affirmative.

Ms. Cohen: I thought he did, too. ae


Judge Holmes: He had no lapse of memory.

Mr. Voth: Perhaps I misheard.


ich
Judge Holmes: He even said... unless you're showing that he said by...

Mr. Voth: No, no. I'm not seeking to impeach by...

Judge Holmes: ...every means necessary.


mM

Mr. Voth: No, no, no, no, no, no. The question... I didn't hear... if I didn't hear it, that's my... I
apologize.

Judge Holmes: Okay. He said that he...

Mr. Voth: No, but I had a...


a

Judge Holmes: ...on behalf of the estate, he protects all intellectual property rights by any reasonable
Te

means.

Mr. Voth: Correct. No, I'm not quibbling with that, Your Honor.
w.

Judge Holmes: So why are you trying to refresh his memory?

Mr. Voth: Then I asked a following... no, no. And then I asked a follow-up question.
ww

Judge Holmes: Which was?


om
Mr. Voth: Since July of 2009, the estate has actively enforced all intellectual property rights of the
estate.

Judge Holmes: He just said that.

n.c
Mr. Voth: Okay.

Judge Holmes: So...

so
Mr. Voth: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: He said yes.

ck
Judge Holmes: He did. Oh, by any reasonable means. That assumes that hiring you, Mr. Weitzman, is
reasonable.

Female: Your Honor, could I just...

lJa
Male: So stipulated.

Mr. Voth: Well, I was referring... perhaps the timeframe, Your Honor, was the issue. I was referring
ae
since July of 2009, and he said possibly. And so that's why I was only going to seek to refresh his
memory. But if it's clear...

Judge Holmes: Is there any doubt about that, Mr. Branca?


ich

Mr. Branca: No. I don't think so. But - -

Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, can I say one thing? The issue is we, the whole, were not appointed until
a certain date when there was a time thereafter before we were able to do anything.
mM

Judge Holmes: Oh, sure.

Mr. Weitzman: Okay.

Judge Holmes: But getting appointed is also part of the whole defense. I understand.
a

Mr. Voth: All right. And with respect to enforcing intellectual property rights, this was done
throughout the United States, correct?
Te

A: Correct.

Q: And numerous foreign countries, correct?


w.

A: Correct.

Q: All right. And these efforts to protect all... strike that. These efforts to protect all intellectual
ww

property of the estate have created significant value for the estate, correct?
om
A: I don't know if it's created significant value. I think what's created significant value have been
the music projects that... This Is It, the Cirque shows. But what our strategy is... obviously is when
we put out a music project, whether it's one of the two Cirque shows, one of the two Spike Lee
documentaries, This Is It, we want people to associate what the estate is doing with high quality. So

n.c
therefore, we cannot allow somebody else to trade off of, or confuse the public by doing something in
the name of Michael or any of his trademarks that might not be of that quality. So have we created
significant value? No, I think we protected the value that we have created.

Q: All right. So I...

so
A: And then Michael... that Michael created.

Q: Sure. So I'm just going off of your witness statement given in Heal the World dated April... in

ck
April of 2011. If we look at the last Lines 25 through 27 in Paragraph 15 of Exhibit 304-J, we're talking
about... it states, "These efforts to secure, preserve, and protect all intellectual property of the
estate and all of Mr. Jackson's post-mortem right of publicity continues unabated and has
created significant value to the estate." Did I read that sentence correctly?

lJa
A: Correct. I think this is a pro forma of statement...

Q: I only asked you if I read it correctly.

A: Yes, you did.


ae
Q: I'm sure Mr. Weitzman will...
ich

Mr. Weitzman: Well, if we go down, it just speeds up. Go ahead.

Mr. Voth: No. Thank you.


mM

Q: All right. So you mentioned trademarks. Trademarks are registered to protect the Michael Jackson
brand. Is that fair?

A: Correct.

Q: In essence, you don't want people putting out stuff under Michael Jackson's name without the
estate's authorization?
a

A: Correct.
Te

Q: Or even using the term... the trademark King of Pop, correct?

A: Correct.
w.

Q: Trademarks stop people from going out and doing worthless projects in Michael Jackson's name?

A: Well, worthless is a judgment.


ww

Q: Well, in your opinion as the... someone who's in charge of the estate?


om
A: Well, also, if somebody does an authorize - - an unauthorized project, the revenues do not go to
Michael's heirs, his children and his mother. So that would be an additional reason to try to police them.

n.c
Q: Okay. But trademarks help...

A: It could be a great project...

Q: Sure.

so
A: ...but if the money doesn't go to Prince, Paris, Blanket, and Ms. Jackson, what's... you know, that's
not...

ck
Q: The... I didn't mean to cut you off

A: No. That's what I was saying.

lJa
Q: Okay.

A: There's two reasons. One is to protect the brand and the quality of the brand, and the other is to
secure the revenues.
ae
Q: All right. Let's briefly talk about YuGo Soft. So around 2010, the estate of Michael Jackson reached
agreement with YuGo Soft to create a videogame. Is that correct?
ich
A: Correct.

Q: The videogame is based on Michael Jackson's name, likeness, and music?

A: Well, it's primarily based on his music and his dance.


mM

Q: And you licensed Michael Jackson's name and likeness in the contract with YuGo Soft, correct?

A: As part of the music, the videos, and the choreography, yes.

Q: All right. So the answer is yes. Now, you were also negotiating with other companies to do a
Michael Jackson videogame, correct?
a

A: Yeah. It was really a dance game. But yeah, we did talk to at least two other companies that I recall.
Te

Q: Is one of them a Japanese company?

A: Yeah, Konami.
w.

Q: But you went with YuGo Soft because they were the most forward-looking?

A: Yeah. We felt that.


ww

Q: Okay.
om
A: The Konami game was kind of old-fashioned.

Q: Okay. And there was a videogame of Michael Jackson when he was alive, correct.

n.c
A: I believe with Sega many, many, many years ago back in the '80s.

Q: Okay. Let's briefly talk about the Bally's slot machines.

so
A: Okay.

Q: Around... okay.

ck
A: Sorry.

Q: That's fine. Around 2012, the estate of Michael Jackson entered into an agreement with Bally
Technologies with respect to the slot machines, correct?

lJa
A: 2012 did you say?

Q: Yeah. Approximately?

A: Correct.
ae
Q: The estate was... at that time the estate was given an advance of 5 to 10 million for the first deal in
ich
2012. Is that correct?

A: Correct.

Q: And then the estate renewed that deal with Bally around 2016. Is that correct?
mM

A: Correct.

Q: And the estate got another advance from Bally, correct?

A: Correct.
a

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.


Te

Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Voth: All right. Let's move on to Michael Jackson's recording process. Michael Jackson was a
perfectionist in respect to this aspect?
w.

Mr. Branca: Correct.

Q: He was ambitious?
ww

A: Correct.
om
Q: The recording process sometimes went on for a long time?

A: It could.

n.c
Q: And in 2009, you reached a deal with Sony regarding the master recordings, correct?

A: Well, we extended the distribution deal with Sony, yes.

so
Q: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: Yeah. Your Honor, the masters are settled. I'm not sure what the relevance is.

ck
Mr. Voth: Solely laying a foundation. I will not delve into that.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Overruled. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

lJa
Mr. Voth: And regarding this... the...
I'm sorry, Your Honor. There's a lot of conversations going on that...

Judge Holmes: Quiet down, Petitioners. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: All right.


ae
Q: All right. Regarding this deal with Sony, you gave an interview to the Associated Press in March of
ich
2010, correct?

A: I believe so.

Q: Okay. And in that interview, you stated that Michael had a tendency to over-record, correct?
mM

A: Correct.

Q: And you told the Associated Press that Michael Jackson would record 20, 30, 40 songs for one
album, correct?

A: I don't know if... I may have said that, yes. I don't recall the interview, but...
a

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I approach the Court to have a document marked for identification?
Te

Judge Holmes: You may.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 706-R is marked for identification.


w.

Mr. Voth: All right. So if you look at one of the last paragraphs there that starts with, "Michael
had a tendency to over-record," Branca said. "He would record 20, 30, 40 songs for one album.
These are the vintage songs." Did I read that statement correctly?
ww

Mr. Branca: I don't see where you're reading.


om
Q: Oh, so it's like that...

Mr. Weitzman: I also want to lodge a relevancy objection. I don't know what this has to do with Mijac.

n.c
Judge Holmes: We'll see maybe. Overruled for now. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: Are you there? It was, like, the third... starting from the bottom, the third paragraph.

so
Mr. Branca: Can you read that to me again? I'm sorry.

Q: All right. So, "Michael had a tendency to over-record," Branca said. "He would record 20, 30,
40 songs for one album. These are the vintage songs."

ck
A: Yes. I see that.

Q: Okay. And that's the statement you made to the Associated Press, correct?

lJa
A: Correct.

Mr. Voth: And Mr. Camp, can you please pull up the Mijac report, Page 58?

Mr. Camp: Petitioner's or Respondent's?


ae
Mr. Voth: I think it's 682-R.
ich

Mr. Camp: Which page?

Mr. Voth: 58.


mM

Mr. Camp: Okay.

Mr. Voth: All right. So... as part of what Tommy Motella said, he said, Michael... let's see... Jackson...
go to the top of 1 , please. "Jackson repeatedly recorded more songs than he needed for his legendary
albums. Let's say 12 or 13 songs end up on the album. Michael could have possibly recorded 15, 20, or
30 songs," Motella said. So in essence, Tommy Motella and you are making very similar statements...
is that fair... with respect to just the number of songs that would be over-recorded?
a

Mr. Branca: Sure.


Te

Q: Okay. And at that time... and we're going back to the... your interview with the Associated Press... it
was your understanding that John McClain had found 60 unreleased songs at the time of Michael
Jackson's death, correct?
w.

A: I see that statement there. I can't necessarily vouch for whether there were actually 60, and he
refers... that references to songs, not recordings, and not to completed songs. If you read further in the
article, it says, "Even if only half of the 60 songs discovered by McClain are commercially viable, that
ww

would be enough for two or three albums. And in fact, we have put out two albums, plus used the song
This Is It in the movie." So that would account there for about 25 songs.
om
Q: All right. But you do agree that, initially, John McClain conveyed to you that he had found 60
unreleased songs...

n.c
A: I don't...

Q: ...just with that statement?

A: I don't recall the statement. I would recall the exuberance that we were hoping that there would be

so
as many songs as possible.

Q: Okay. So back in 2010, that was your hope.

ck
A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. And in this article... if you don't recall, let me know. But you also stated that Michael
Jackson's legacy of unreleased material is far more than what was left by Elvis Presley. Is that

lJa
correct?

A: I can't speak for Elvis. Elvis Presley did not write his own songs. So at least with Michael,
Michael wrote many, not all, of his own songs.

Q: Okay. So you would have...


ae
A: Michael also produced or co-produced his songs, which Elvis did not. So therein, you at least have...
ich
you know, I think if Elvis recorded with a producer, it pretty much got released. And if you analyze
Elvis's career, I don't know how many albums were put out... 60, 70. I mean, he put out too many
albums. In Michael's 30 years between Off the Wall and his passing, he put out six albums and an EP, a
very, very, very different weight of release in terms of being prolific.
mM

Q: All right. So let's go to the second page of this AP article. I mean, it's consistent with what you're
saying in terms of Jackson did not release a huge number of albums in his lifetime. I'm reading the
third paragraph. And then the second sentence reads, "He"... he referring to Branca... "said the
legacy of unreleased material is far more than what was left by Elvis Presley." Did I read just
that one sentence correctly?

A: And I think that's correct. We have actually put out two full albums of unreleased recordings. Elvis
a

put out none.


Te

Q: And Michael Jackson's fan base is also larger than that of Elvis Presley, and it stretches around the
globe, correct?

A: Correct.
w.

Q: And you also stated that Michael Jackson is one of the most recognized figures in the world along
with Mohammed Ali. Is that correct?
ww

A: Correct.
om
Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I get clarification from the Clerk as to the number that this...

Court Clerk: It's marked as...

n.c
Mr. Voth: Yeah.

Court Clerk: ...706-R.

Mr. Voth: Respondent moves into evidence 706-R.

so
Mr. Weitzman: I would object, Your Honor. I don't know what purpose the article, which has some
supposed quotes from other people. Mr. Branca was asked about his quotes, and I think he confirmed it.
?? the article commits hearsay.

ck
Mr. Voth: Well, may I reply?

Judge Holmes: Yes, Mr. Voth.

lJa
Mr. Voth: So what the... Respondent's only seeking to admit for the truth of the matter asserted of only
Mr. Branca's statements... ae
Judge Holmes: With that understanding it's in. 706-R is in for that limited purpose.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor, as I move to a different section.


ich
Judge Holmes: Yes.

Mr. Voth: All right. Let's talk about some of the benefits of having a deceased client. Part of it is you
can control how Michael Jackson's image is portrayed to the public. Is that fair?
mM

Mr. Branca: Well, you can do that when the artist is alive.

Q: Well, but if the artist is alive and not conducting properly, right, that would be to your detriment?

A: I'm not the artist. You seem to be confusing me to my detriment. This is all about the artist, whether
he's alive or his estate.
a

Q: So... wait. So are you saying that as the person in charge of the estate... one of the persons in charge
of the estate of Michael Jackson, right... so you have a deceased client... you have a certain level of
Te

control over how Michael Jackson's image is portrayed to the public. Is that correct?

A: But it... the artist has at least that much control while they're alive.
w.

Q: I'm not talking about living artists. I'm talking about deceased.

Judge Holmes: Just answer the question, Mr. Branca.


ww

Mr. Branca: Okay.


om
A: Do I have a certain amount of control? I have a certain amount of control over the images or the
photos that we use. I have no control whatsoever over photos that other people use.

Q: Right. And one of the benefits that you have is that you no longer have to worry about Michael

n.c
Jackson's conduct, correct?

A: I think that's a repulsive statement.

Q: I'm just going by what you stated...

so
A: I'm very proud to...

Judge Holmes: Well, is it... I understand the sensitivity. But it is true, isn't it? I mean...

ck
Mr. Branca: Well, I mean there is no conduct if the artist is deceased. But we have no control over,
you know, these allegations that seem to pop up after Michael passed away, these unfair and untrue
allegations that then go out into the public eye. And we... you know, we associate with Michael. We

lJa
don't have any control over that. So it's illusory to think we don't have control over his conduct, yet
somehow we have control over everybody's impressions of Michael Jackson.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.


ae
Q: All right. So is it fair to say that the estate carefully selects images that are used to portray Michael
Jackson?
ich
A: Correct.

Q: And do you recall stating that at the deposition you gave in the AEG case... Jackson versus
AEG case, for example, if you were running the Chris Brown estate, you wouldn't have to worry
about him committing a violent attack on another human being?
mM

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. I'm just going to object to... is that... that's a hypothetical?

Mr. Voth: It's not a hypothetical. I'm just...

Mr. Weitzman: Well, you said the Chris Brown estate. I think he's still alive.
a

Mr. Voth: He's still alive. No, it's... I'm just going by what... let's pull it up. Mr. Camp, can you please
pull up Exhibit...
Te

Judge Holmes: Wait, wait. Mr. Voth?

Mr. Voth: Yeah.


w.

Judge Holmes: Who's Chris Brown?

Judge Holmes: No, no. I'm ignorant on popular culture. This is serious. But is he another singer?
ww

Mr. Voth: He's another singer who committed a very violent attack on another artist. And in the
om
context of the... it's my...

Judge Holmes: Okay. Okay. I get that.

n.c
Mr. Voth: Okay.

Judge Holmes: It's popular-cultured...

Mr. Voth: Right.

so
Judge Holmes: ...people behaving badly. I get it.

Mr. Weitzman: And then I'll object to the relevance.

ck
Judge Holmes: Go ahead. You asked him if he said something?

Mr. Voth: Correct. And we could... Mr. Camp, please pull up Exhibit 563-J, Page 225, Lines 16

lJa
through 21.

Mr. Toscher: Counsel, can you identify what exhibit number?


ae
Mr. Weitzman: Is this the wrongful death litigation?

Mr. Voth: Okay. So this is a stipulated exhibit, 225-J. Yes, and it's the Katherine Jackson versus AEG
Live.
ich

Mr. Branca: And can I ask the date?

Q: And so this is dated March 4th, 2013. And Lines 16 through 21, please ?? where you're asked the
questions similar to what I was asking you, then you answered, "Well I think with an estate, you
mM

know, you have whatever issues or reputation the artists had while they were alive. But you're
right. If I was running the Chris Brown estate, I would not have to worry about him committing,
you know, a violent attack on another human being." Did I read that statement correctly?

A: Correct. But what I would say is...

Q: That was the only question.


a

A: Okay.
Te

Q: Thank you.

Mr. Weitzman: Your lawyer let you answer that question?


w.

Mr. Voth: All right. Let's move on to something lighter. But let's just briefly talk about Sony ATV,
specifically the ATV purchase. So was it after the success of Thriller that Michael Jackson was
interested in purchasing music copyrights?
ww

A: Yes.
om
Q: And so we have... ATV was a music catalog back then?

A: Yes.

n.c
Q: ATV owned the... most of the Beatles songs or all of the Beatles?

A: Two hundred and fifty-one Beatles songs and the songs of Little Richard and certain others.

so
Q: Okay. And then ATV was up for sale in 1984-'85? Is that correct?

A: Yeah. It had been on the market on and off. But yes, it was on the market in '84-'85.

ck
Q: And then you notified Michael Jackson of this, correct?

A: Correct.

lJa
Q: And then Michael Jackson wanted to purchase ATV.

A: Yeah. Well, first he asked me to speak with Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono to see if they were
bidding against it. They were his friends.
ae
Q: Okay. And then was it in 1995 that Michael Jackson eventually purchased ATV?

A: 1985.
ich

Q: Okay. And then ATV eventually merged with Sony, correct?

A: Yes, in '95.
mM

Q: And at that time, Michael Jackson owned 50 percent of Sony ATV, correct?

A: After the merger.

Q: After the merger?

A: Correct.
a

Q: And then Sony ATV had a board of directors, correct?


Te

A: Correct.

Q: And Michael Jackson elected half of the members of the board?


w.

A: Correct.

Q: And let's just briefly talk about the purchase that took place in 2016. So in 2016, Sony exercised its
ww

prior buy out provision, correct?


om
A: Correct.

Q: You were surprised?

n.c
A: Yes.

Q: Because of your 30-year relationship with Sony, correct?

A: Excuse me?

so
Q: Because of your 30-year relationship with Sony, you were surprised.

A: Well, no. It's because we had a joint venture that started in '95, so it was a 21-year relationship. And

ck
normally speaking, if one party wants to buy the other out or exit the business, they have a conversation
first and not exercise a buy-sell option.

Q: That's when you got the written exercise notice from Sony, right?

lJa
A: Correct.

Q: Okay. All right. Let's move on. All right. So you briefly mentioned social media. Is it correct that
ae
the estate uses social media to keep Michael Jackson relevant?

A: Yes.
ich
Q: Okay. And that was one of your first decisions you made with respect to the estate, correct?

A: Well, what we wanted to do was increase the number of Michael Jackson's Facebook friends, so we
made a concerted effort to do that and to, you know, stay in touch with fans and...
mM

Q: Right.

A: ...provide interesting content.

Q: And through Facebook did you send posts out every day regarding...

A: Pretty much.
a

Q: ...pretty much?
Te

A: Yeah.

Q: And Michael Jackson's Facebook page currently has approximately 80 million likes ???
w.

A: More than 80 million. Yes.

Q: More than... okay.


ww

A: Started at... I think when he passed away it was at about 8 million.


om
Q: Let's move on to my last section. Let's talk about Michael Jackson's legacy. Michael Jackson was
known as the King of Pop, correct?

n.c
A: Correct.

Q: Michael Jackson...

A: It's actually the King of Pop, Rock and Soul.

so
Q: Fair enough. He was also known as the greatest entertainer of all time?

A: In the words of Berry Gordy at Michael's memorial service, yes. And I agree.

ck
Q: Now, you have done some consulting work for the Elvis estate, correct?

A: Correct.

lJa
Q: Now Elvis's era was primarily from the '50s and '60s, correct?

A: Correct.

Q: Before there were music videos?


ae
A: Well, Elvis had films in which he performed. And so there are... you can take his performances out
ich
of the film if one was so inclined to create movie videos. Yeah.

Q: Okay. So you could have taken the film and create music videos, but there weren't music videos, per
se, as we know them?
mM

A: Correct. There were appearances on things like The Ed Sullivan Show, or The Steve Allen Show
there were, but yes.

Q: Okay.

A: You're right. There was no music video business, per se.


a

Q: And at our deposition, you stated that it's hard to get younger kids excited about Elvis. Is that fair?
Te

A: Well, I have just started with the Elvis... I represented the Elvis estate in the past, and I just began
representing them again about a year or 15 months ago to help with the rebranding efforts that they
want to do.
w.

Q: Okay. So the question... so the answer to my question when I asked you it's hard to get young kids
excited about Elvis, that's something that you told me at the deposition. Is that correct?

A: So far.
ww

Q: So far. And you also stated that people under the age of 50 or... 40 or 50 barely know Elvis. Is that
om
correct?

A: I think that's been one of the issues that, you know, we have discussed with Authentic Brands Group
that owns the Elvis estate. Yeah.

n.c
Q: Okay. Move on to the Beatles. You stated that they weren't performers. Is that correct?

A: Well, they performed concerts, yeah.

so
Q: Right. But their... the span of their career was limited, correct?

A: It was short.

ck
Q: And you also stated that the excitement with the Beatles is with older people, correct?

A: I mean, I think that music... younger music aficionados appreciate the Beatles, but they... I
don't believe that they generate the same excitement as Michael's performances.

lJa
Q: Okay. And if we look at Page 197 of your deposition taken on December 29, 2016, right, when
we're talking about the Beatles, Lines 10 through 11, you stated, "But the excitement is with the
older people." Is that correct?
ae
A: Yeah. I think when you think of the Beatles you think of great songwriters, and you think of great
three-part harmonies and the great songs they wrote. It's not that you look at a concert performance and
you become mesmerized as you do with Michael. So I think it's the musical copyrights of the Beatles
ich
that are exciting as opposed to the... you know, the performances of Michael.

Q: Would you agree with what I... that you stated at the deposition that the excitement with respect to
the Beatles is with older people?
mM

A: Correct.

Q: All right. Now, Michael is different because his music is more recent, you also stated, correct?

A: Correct.

Q: Michael Jackson pioneered music videos, correct?


a

A: Yes, he did.
Te

Q: One moment, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: All right.


w.

Mr. Voth: No further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Weitzman.


ww

Mr. Weitzman: I want to take a short break, if you don't mind.


om
Judge Holmes: Do you expect this to linger on into tomorrow morning?

Mr. Weitzman: Yes.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Let's talk about the scheduling tomorrow. Do we have Mr. Anson coming back for
name and likeness, right of publicity?

Mr. Voth: Yes, Your Honor.

so
Judge Holmes: Is that the plan? Anybody else from the government before the trial shuts down?

Male: Possible rebuttal.

ck
Mr. Voth: Not for tomorrow. Not first.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Mr. Weitzman.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, maybe we could put this over to 10:00 o'clock tomorrow and go to Mr.
Anson if all we have... no disrespect... if all we have is Mr. Branca and Mr. Anson.
ae
Judge Holmes: And then what does the rebuttal case of the petitioners look like?

Mr. Weitzman: Our rebuttal case, which we'll start on Friday, I just don't think it will take more than a
couple of hours. Maybe two, three hours max, I think.
ich

Judge Holmes: ?? for a surrebuttal case?

Ms. Herbert: It's possible, Your Honor.


mM

Judge Holmes: Okay.

Ms. Herbert: Could we inquire the names of the rebuttal witnesses?

Judge Holmes: Your experts, right? Do you have anybody else?

Mr. Weitzman: Yes. We would be glad to tell them tomorrow. I think that's how...
a

Judge Holmes: Okay.


Te

Mr. Weitzman: ...you want to do it here.

Judge Holmes: In general, that is the case.


w.

Mr. Weitzman: And I'm sure their surrebuttal would be cross-examination.

Judge Holmes: I suspect some of it would be. I don't doubt that. We can resume tomorrow then with
ww

some quick questions.


om
Mr. Voth: Just one clarification, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Yes.

n.c
Mr. Voth: It is Respondent's preference to... if we resume tomorrow, we would like to call Mr. Anson
first.

Judge Holmes: No. We'll get done with Mr. Branca. In the middle of ??.

so
Mr. Weitzman: It won't be that long with Mr. Branca, and I'm sure Mr. Voth won't have any additional
questions.

Judge Holmes: But I have so many, Mr. Weitzman. Anyway, we will resume tomorrow.

ck
Court Clerk: All rise.

(Adjorned)

lJa
ae
February 23rd 2017
ich

Court Clerk: Court is in session.


mM

Judge Holmes: Please be seated. And I think we're back to Mr. Weitzman and Mr. Branca.

Mr. Weitzman: We ready?

Judge Holmes: We are.


a

Mr. Weitzman: We'll recall Mr. Branca, who was on the stand yesterday afternoon.
Te

Judge Holmes: Very good.

Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, I'm trying to find the portion of the transcript, but I realize it was the
interview when Ms. Larson asked questions regarding Chris Brown, I think. So I wonder if I could ask
w.

through the Court of Mr. Voth exactly what that question and answer was of Mr. Branca yesterday
regrading Chris Brown.

Mr. Voth: It was part of the AEG trial...


ww

Mr. Weitzman: Oh, it the AEG...


om
Mr. Voth: ... deposition transcript.

Mr. Weitzman: ...trial. Well, there is one reason why I couldn't find it.

n.c
Judge Holmes: There you go. Do you have that...

Female: Is that in the first stip?

so
Male: Yes.

Ms. Strachan: That's in the first stip.

ck
Male: Yes, it's in the first stip.

Judge Holmes: Ms. Wood, do you have any exhibit that consisted of his summons testimony? I think
that's...

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: While we're looking for it, if I could just go forward for a moment.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEITZMAN:


ae
Q. Mr. Branca, yesterday you were asked... let me see how I could phrase this. You were asked about
when you met with Mr. Jackson, you brought an agenda with you, correct?
ich
A. Correct.

Mr. Weitzman: Could you put that agenda up?

Mr. Rosefsky: There you go.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.

Q. And Mr. Voth went through a couple of the things that you listed. First of all, I know you've testified
to this before. But what was the purpose in creating this agenda and bringing it to Mr. Jackson?

A. Well, I did it at the request of Mr. DiLeo. And the purpose was to give us some ideas to think about
a

talking points, set up, you know, possible goals of things that we might try to do.
Te

Q. And when you went to see Mr. Jackson, you believed, as all of us did, that he was going to be out on
tour in London in the next few weeks, correct?

A. Correct.
w.

Q. And these items put on your agenda, were they items that assumed the tour would take place?

A. Most of them, not all of them; but certainly, the ones that relate to a concert film, for example,
ww

contemplated that there would be a tour and the ability to film the tour with a multi-camera shoot, a
significant director, a sound stage audio engineer.
om
Q. Okay. So some of these involve projects in the future like the Thriller film or Thriller Broadway
play, correct?

n.c
A. Absolutely.

Q. And did you contemplate those projects would be done in consultation with Mr. Jackson?

A. Yes.

so
Q. So for example, the Thriller film, what did you have in your mind that you were going to suggest to
Mr. Jackson?

ck
A. The thought was the possibility... and it probably wouldn't have been a film, not a play... but the
possibility that one could create an animated film or a live action film inspired by ?? and song Thriller
and Michael's short film, Thriller.

lJa
Q. And you actually said that yesterday. How would Mr. Jackson have been involved in those potential
projects?

A. Well, Michael, of course, maintained control of everything that was done where he licensed either
ae
his copyrights or his recordings. And so he would have had approvals over script and actors and that
kind of thing.

Q. You do understand that the Internal Revenue Service's theory here is that many of the projects the
ich
estate engaged in after Michael passed away were reasonably foreseeable before he died. You
understand that, don't you?

A. I do understand that that's their position.


mM

Q. Okay. So for example, the Thriller Broadway play was... that's something that you came to Michael
about because it's something you thought of?

A. Correct.

Q. At the time you met with Michael, when it says, "Possible film about Thriller album," what was that
about?
a

A. That would be a documentary about the Thriller album, how it was conceived, recorded, its impact
Te

on the world, not unlike the film we did about the Bad album or the most recent documentary we did
with Spike Lee from Motown to Off the Wall.

Q. Except that Thriller... possible film about Thriller album that you were considering would have also
w.

involved Michael Jackson.

A. Absolutely, yes.
ww

Q. And how would he have been involved?


om
A. Well, he would have rendered his personal services. I could easily say that it would have been a
much more compelling project if Michael were personally involved. That goes without saying.

Q. Right. And the live concert film and DVD, that assumed the This Is It concert took place, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. The Neverland Museum, we talked a little bit about what you had in mind yesterday. But had
Michael lived, how would he have participated in a potential Neverland Museum?

so
A. Well, we knew, based on more than one study that had been done by experts that it was not possible
to open up Michael's Neverland ranch for public visitation or for commercial enterprise. So it would
have been necessary to reconceive the idea to recreate Neverland somewhere else. And if that were

ck
possible, Michael, of course, would have been very involved in selecting the artifacts in creating a film,
if not a hologram, to exhibit at this potential museum.

Q. And the Thriller live album and DVD, did that deal with footage... when you say live album, what

lJa
do you mean? Sorry. Rather than me guessing, what do you mean?

A. I thought it might be possible while Michael was doing the This Is It concerts to do a segment of the
show where he performed live the Thriller album from start to finish. And that could have been
ae
recorded and done as a DVD. Now, that's... for example, Brian Wilson recently a few years ago
performed a Pet Sounds album from start to finish. And artists had started to do that. So it was an idea
for Michael to perform live and record a live version of the Thriller album.
ich
Q. Didn't Van Morrison do that with Astral Weeks a couple of years ago at the Hollywood Bowl?

A. Yes, he did, actually.

Q. So all of the items in 2-A of your agenda really assumed Michael Jackson would be alive, well, and
mM

participating in any or all of those projects if he wanted to, correct?

A. Correct. And there's no if there. They assumed that he was alive, and there's no way a project like
that would happen without Michael being involved.

Q. So now let's go to 3 for a moment. Three, you have titled Recorded Music Catalog. What were you
referring to?
a

A. Is this 3-A or 3-B?


Te

Q. 3... well, you see 3? In bold letters, it says...

A. Yes.
w.

Q. ...Recorded Music Catalog.

A. Yes.
ww

Q. So first of all, what does that refer to?


om
A. That is the recorded music catalog that Michael recorded for Sony that's currently being distributed
by Sony... his master recordings.

n.c
Q. And so 3-A, can you tell us what you had in mind for Michael when... with .. that and brought it to
him?

A. Yes. Well, Thriller is the biggest-selling album in history worldwide and in the U.S. And it's been
celebrated, of course, as it deserves to be, as an incredible album. So the thought would be to do a

so
repackage, maybe a box set, to commemorate the achievements of that album.

Q. And that would have included, I assume, the songs from the Thriller album, correct?

ck
A. The songs and the recordings, yeah.

Q. All right. You didn't have in mind any new songs for that project, did you?

lJa
A. Not necessarily. But if... you know, it would have been up to Michael if he wanted to record another
song as a bonus cut or as he did with Thriller 25. If he wanted to go to artists... other artists or
producers to remix or... it was possible that there could be new material. But it was not required.
ae
Q. And when you say new material, for example, on Thriller 25, there was new material which were
remixes of old material, correct?

A. Yes. There were remixes of the existing recordings and some additional recording by artist.
ich

Q. And when you say additional recording by artist, what are you referring to?

A. Well, on a remix, sometimes the producer or the artist will take the original tracks and change them
a little bit and maybe record a rap or some other kind of material on top of the original recordings.
mM

Q. One second. And then let's go to 3-B. And read that to yourself for a moment. What did you have in
mind when you met with and talked with Michael?

A. Well, again, this is a wish list. This is a list of things to think about. This would... this contemplated
an effort to go to Sony and get back the distribution rights from Michael's recordings so that Michael
could, in effect, be the record company and then direct license the recordings for sale or streaming to
a

Apple, create packages for Wal-Mart, use a foreign distributor rather than using Sony. Of course,
legally, it required Sony's consent to do that. Eventually, the masters would have reverted to Michael. I
Te

was talking about getting them back sooner.

Q. So during this period, by the way, you were aware that Michael was in extreme financial difficulties,
weren't you?
w.

A. Well, I mean, I read it in the press.

Q. I understand.
ww

A. Yeah.
om
Q. And did you talk to Mr. DiLeo about that at all, about his financial situation...

A. I...

n.c
Q. ...if you remember?

A. I don't recall.

so
Q. To get Sony to go along with what you wanted to do or what you suggested to Michael, which you
think about doing 3-B, would require... this is my phrase now... some leverage to get them to go along
with it, wouldn't it?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. And would part of that leverage have been the fact that he was out on tour again performing?

lJa
A. Well, not... yes, that could add leverage in terms of perhaps getting the distribution rights back for
the United States and extended... extending Sony's distribution rights overseas. If they gave us back all
of the distribution rights and they had no further financial participation, the fact that the tour alone
wouldn't be... wouldn't have been sufficient leverage.
ae
Q. Okay. And just 3-C, 3-D, put that together. They're both re-releases. What did you have in mind
there?
ich
A. Well, back in '83 when we financed the Thriller video, we did a making of the Thriller video. It has
not been in distribution for almost 30 years, or approximately 30 years. So the thought was maybe we...
that would be worth re-releasing or including in the special commemorative package of Thriller.

Q. By the way, all of this was assuming that Michael Jackson was alive, well, and had gone on to
mM

participate in the tour, the This Is It tour, scheduled at the 02 Arena in London, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you weren't there talking with him about ideas thinking that he'd probably die in a week or two
and you'd be the executive of his estate, would you?
a

A. Of course not.
Te

Q. Duets LP, is that what it sounds like? You were going to use his tracks and bring other people and
record parts of the songs?

A. Yeah. It was the possibility that Michael perhaps would record duets with other artists, which could
w.

have been of songs that were new songs. So they could be a Duets LP of standards or classics.

Q. Okay.
ww

Mr. Weitzman: Close that. Thanks.


om
Q. Four, Repurchase/Restructure of Sony/ATV, what did you have in mind there?

A. I put that there because I know that that was always something that was on Michael's mind. And so
it was something to discuss with him to show him that I was attentive to things that he might care about

n.c
that were important to him. Whether that would lead to greater income distributions or some other
restructure was unclear.

Q. And that exercise would have required some leverage as well, wouldn't it have?

so
A. Serious leverage.

Q. Okay. And at the time you were speaking to Michael, he had mortgaged, or pledged, around $300
million of his interest in the Sony/ATV catalog, correct?

ck
A. Well, I think as of the date Michael passed away, it was... had been in excess of 300 million.

Q. So to do something like the repurchase or restructure of Sony/ATV, just in your mind, did you have

lJa
any idea what that might involve, just thinking in theory?

A. One of the thoughts I had was would it be possible to extinguish that debt, that $300 million- plus of
debt, and take it off of Michael's books, have it assumed by somebody else, like Sony, in return for,
ae
perhaps, a reduced share but still a significant share in Sony/ATV as a way to reduce Michael's debt
load.

Q. That also assumed Michael was alive and well, didn't it?
ich

A. Correct.

Q. And then 5 really doesn't apply today because that all dealt with assumptions that the tour was
taking place, correct?
mM

A. Correct.

Q. And last, Renegotiate/Restructure Mijac, what did you have in mind there?

A. That was just a check to see if Michael was happy with the performance of Warner-Chappell and
how they were handling the catalog and to see if there was some way if... with the debt load to get more
a

income out of Warner-Chappell, an advance... you know, what were Michael's financial needs at the
time.
Te

Q. So he had also pledged some of his interest, or a good part of his interest, in Mijac for loans from
Warner-Chappell, correct?
w.

A. Correct.

Q. And I've asked you this three or four times. One more time, all of these ideas assume Michael was
alive and would go on tour and earned income, correct?
ww

A. Absolutely.
om
Q. And you've told us that you were on holiday when Michael died. Was it reasonably foreseeable to
you that Michael Jackson would be dead eight days after you met him... met with him?

n.c
Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for speculation.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:

so
A. God no. It was absolute stunning, shock.

Q. Okay. So Michael passes away, and you learn that you're one of two people that are specified in his

ck
will as co-executives, correct... last will?

A. Well, at the time Michael passed away, we did not know whether that was his final will. Michael...

lJa
Q. I understand that. But ultimately, you learned that to be the case, correct?

A. Correct. ae
Q. And when Michael passed away and you... did you start to think about what you were going to do or
how you were going to deal with the situation if you were the executor... that is, the situation of
Michael's estate?
ich
A. Yes. Once it appeared that no other will was forthcoming, John McClain and I began to think about
what needed to be done.

Q. Would it be a fair statement to say that you had some concerns about whether or not you wanted to
be the executive?
mM

A. Well, I did have some concerns, yeah.

Q. And did you consult anybody about those concerns, talk to anybody?

A. Well, in addition to close friends and advisors, I went to visit with Mr. Gordy, Mr. Berry Gordy, who
is the founder of Motown Records and, in effect, signed the Jackson 5 and Michael and helped
a

established his career.


Te

Q. And what was Mr. Gordy's advice to you?

A. Well, I said to Berry, if I could refer to him in that way in this forum, so much acrimony with the
family. And I said to him, Berry, and I'm not sure I should do this. And he related to me a story that his
w.

personal entertainment attorney had passed away and Berry had been named the executor. And Berry
said to me, John, his wife... his widow, hated me. His ex- wife hated me. His kids hated me. It was the
most thankless job I ever had, but I had to do it. You have to do it. You have to do it. Michael wanted
you to do it. Who else would do it? You understand Michael. You understand his assets. It's... you must
ww

do it. And I said you know what, Berry, you're right.


om
Q. And so you and John McClain were... became co-executors after a few weeks, correct?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. And you... I can't remember whether you repeated this when your testimony took place a week and a
half ago, so let's do it kind of in summary form. You went and met with Ms. Jackson and some of the
siblings and read them parts of, if not most of, the will, correct?

A. Well, as I recall, I went to Jermaine Jackson's house, and I gave them a copy of the will and gave

so
them a summary of what it said.

Q. Who went with you, if you recall?

ck
A. I believe Joel Katz.

Q. And so they acknowledge it, and you left. And is that when you learned after you left meeting with
some of the Jackson family that Mr. and Ms. Jackson were in court asking to be appointed as the

lJa
executors, or administrators?

A. Yes. It was quite odd. Ms. Jackson was at the house. But it turned out while we were giving them a
copy of the will... I believe it was an attorney named Londell McMillan along with, I believe, Randy
ae
Jackson, were in court claiming there was no will, that any will that turned into the court would be a
fake one, and that Mr. and Ms. Jackson should be appointed administrators of the estate.

Q. So kind of fast-forward to... a minute here, there were some court proceedings. You and Mr.
ich
McClain were appointed special administrators and, some months later, the executives... co-executives,
correct?

A. Correct. There is one thing I would add to this.


mM

Q. You don't think I'm going to get there, but go ahead.

A. No.

Q. No.

A. Which made it quite odd is that Michael had wills in 1995 and 1997 and then in 2002. They each
a

basically had the same distributive provisions to his mother and his kids and named me as a co-
executor. So for the life of me, I couldn't understand what the... these certain members of the family
Te

were thinking. But anyway, that's a side note.

Q. So one of your responsibilities was to go march through the assets and see what you were going to
do with...
w.

A. Correct.

Q. ... Michael Jackson's estate, correct?


ww

A. Correct.
om
Q. And at the time this was all taking place the first few days, did you meet with lawyers and financial
people about the state of Mr. Jackson's affairs?

n.c
A. Yes. We met with yourself. We met with Paul Hoffman and Jeryll Cohen as probate and estate tax
experts. We met with Mike Sitrick, public relations expert, and Joel Katz, who had been Michael's
corporate lawyer, and Michael Kane, who was Michael's financial accountant.

Q. He was his business manager, right?

so
A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And so...

ck
A. And Randy Phillips at one point as well.

Q. And do you recall a dinner we had... we... you had with others... sorry... you had with others the

lJa
Wednesday night after Michael died?

A. I don't recall the exact evening, but I do recall the dinner at Mr. Chow's in the private room upstairs.
I think Frank DiLeo was also there.
ae
Q. And do you recall discussing things about what you and your team was going to try to do in regards
to Michael's estate?
ich
A. Well, we were quite concerned about the debt load, and we were quite concerned about the ability to
pay bills. We were concerned about whether it was going to be necessary to sell assets. I mean, that was
really the focus of our discussions in terms of debt, foreclosure, debt service, that kind of thing.

Q. And at the time that dinner took place, was there concern... was there any concern that there would
mM

be defaults on some of the loans that Mr. Jackson had?

A. Well, the... yeah, there was a concern about defaults not just on loans, but unpaid bills. Yes.

Q. Do you have any more specifics that you can remember? I know that was a few years ago. But I
want to provide as much information to Your Honor as I hope is relevant.
a

A. Well, I... you know, I recall the Sony/ATV loan was about 300 million. I believe the interest rate was
about 8 percent... 7, 8 percent, something like that. Mijac had a substantial loan between 70 and 80
Te

million. I believe the interest rate was about 16 percent. There was a loan on Hayvenhurst, the
residence where Michael's mother lived, and 4 or $5 million. And I believe that it was in default. There
were unpaid bills. AEG had advanced between 35 and $40 million for the This Is It tour that they were
looking to recover in some fashion. So
w.

Q. I mean, basically, everybody was kind of looking for money from the estate, weren't they?

A. Yes.
ww

Q. And what was your concern with not being able to service the Sony/ATV loan?
om
A. A loss of the asset, bankruptcy.

Q. Could you expand a bit? What do you mean?

n.c
A. You know, I was concerned that the bank might initiate some form of buy-sell proceeding or
otherwise try to seize the asset and sell it to recover their loan.

Q. Okay. I'm just going to move to a different subject, but I... I'll come back to this meeting in a

so
moment. When you say initiate the buy- sell... let's talk about the buy-sell. Let's just fast-forward and
talk about the buy-sell for a moment. I think it was Michael Lynton that sent the letter, correct, from
Sony?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. And before Michael Lynton sent the letter to you triggering the buy-sell, did you have any
discussion with Sony about whether or not they would exercise the buy-sell?

lJa
A. No, there was no indication that they were going to exercise the buy-sell.

Q. And did you believe that Mr. Jackson had a right to exercise the buy-sell?
ae
A. I don't recall. We didn't consider it because that was not part of our plan or our strategy. We had
renegotiated the... some of the provisions of the Sony/ATV agreement to increase the distributions from
11 to... I believe it was 23 million a year. We had renegotiated the loan to an interest rate of about 3
ich
percent. And the other counter-balancing fact was that somewhere between 2005 and 2009, the
operating agreement and the buy-sell provisions had been drastically changed to the benefit of Sony. So
the notion of exercising a buy-sell was not an attractive one at that point in time.

Q. Now, that's very kind. It really wasn't a possible one at that point in time, was it?
mM

A. Perhaps not.

Q. Now, if I was really cross-examining you, I'd say what do you mean perhaps not, but I'm going to let
that go.

A. Okay. I just would say it was never in our contemplation to exercise the buy-sell.
a

Q. And why was that?


Te

A. We wanted at that time to stay in the music publishing business. And because there was a purchase
option that had been granted between 2005 and 2009, it kept the value of half of Michael's interest or,
in other words, 25 percent of Sony/ATV to a total of... I believe it was 250 million, so 125 million for
w.

that half interest, making it incredibly unattractive to want to be involved in a buy-sell proceeding. The
goal was eventually to see if that could be dealt with in some fashion, but it was a very unattractive
situation.
ww

Q. And part of the way it might have been dealt with... and correct me if I'm wrong... part of the way it
might have been dealt with is Michael staying well, healthy, and going out on tour, correct?
om
A. That could have helped, yeah.

Q. Well, a successful tour would have helped.

n.c
A. Yes, yes.

Q. By the way, the This Is It tour did not have a tour sponsor, correct?

so
A. Correct.

Q. And I'm going to come back to that in a moment. But isn't that a significant fact in terms of revenue
earnings from a tour?

ck
A. The tour sponsor, first of all, pays for the right to sponsor the tour, so it's money that goes to the
bottom line; and second of all, helps the market and promote a tour.

lJa
Q. And another question just so I... sorry for free-forming here and kind of getting out of order. But the
loan that Michael Jackson had from Sony/ATV - - I think you said it was around $300 million when he
passed away. The loan he had with Mijac, did he use that money to live off and survive, basically?
ae
A. Well, I, you know, did not represent Michael the last four or five years of his life, but certainly likely
that he did that.

Q. Well, based on your experience...


ich

Mr. Voth: I move to strike his answer and... to lack of personal knowledge.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. The answer is stricken.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: Did you say sustained?

Judge Holmes: Yes, the answer is stricken.

Mr. Weitzman: Okay.

Q. Asking you about your personal knowledge now, when you represented him from 1993... I'm
a

picking '93 for a reason... 1993 on, that period of time, Michael was borrowing money and living off
the money, correct?
Te

A. Correct.

Q. And as a matter of fact, when the loans first started, which I think was 19-... was it '86, '87?
w.

A. Well, the...

Q. A little bit later maybe.


ww

A. The first loan was an acquisition loan in 1985...


om
Q. Okay.

A. ... when Michael purchased ATV, and it was a $30 million loan.

n.c
Q. And isn't it correct that the money Michael borrowed when you represented him was, in large part,
used to fund... and there's no pejorative in here, just a fact... was, in large part, used to fund his lifestyle,
correct?

so
A. Later on, yes. Not... in '85, no. It was used to purchase that asset. But as it grew from 30 to 300
million, yes.

Q. Okay. So the first loan was used for business purposes. But it would be... would it be a fair

ck
statement to say the loans thereafter, which I think was two or three years after the initial loan, but
basically used to fund lifestyle or, you know, purchases for artwork or things such as that.

Mr. Voth: Objection. Asked and answered, Your Honor.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

A. Yes, particularly from 1993 on.


ae
Q. And when you say particularly from 1993 on, does 1993 have a particular significance for you? I
mean, in other words, did some event happen that caused you to pick that time?
ich
A. Well, yeah, I mean, I did not represent Michael for about three years from approximately 1990 to '93
or '89 to '92. But in '93, there were several large payments Michael needed to make. There was a
settlement with the Chandler family, and then there was a settlement with a tour promoter for canceled
concerts.
mM

Q. So at the time the dinner meeting was had upstairs at Mr. Chow's, would it be correct to say that we
were not talking about in a... let me rephrase it. Would it be correct to say we were talking about selling
assets to pay down or service debts?

A. We were talking about those subjects. Correct.

Q. And I think you've heard me in part of this trial use the phrase "irons in the fire," which is a phrase
a

that I've heard from the Internal Revenue Service. When we were at Mr. Chow's for dinner, which was
six days after Michael died, were we discussing projects? Did we have any irons in the fire that night?
Te

A. Nothing specific, no.

Q. Okay. Well, when you say nothing specific, were we talking about a Cirque show?
w.

A. No, absolutely not.

Q. Were we talking about a film that we got lucky on and did great?
ww

A. No.
om
Q. We weren't talking about anything to generate money but selling assets, were we?

A. Correct.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: Josh, do you have that from yesterday?

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. It would be Exhibit 563.

so
Q. Okay. Mr. Branca, you were asked yesterday a specific question by Mr. Voth that dealt with your
comment about Chris Brown. And I asked that the whole question then... and response be read. And it
was suggested by His Honor that I might want to revisit that at another time, which would be now. So
could you take a look at Page 225 of the question asked, which reads: "QUESTION: And also, with the

ck
estate, you also don't have any difficulties that arrived with the artist's reputation in the press as well in
terms of the things that may or may not happen with respect to what the artist's conduct is, correct?"
And then you gave the answer at Line 60: "Well, I think within an estate, you know, you have whatever
issues or reputation the artist had while they were alive. But you're right. If I was running the Chris

lJa
Brown estate, I would not have to worry about him committing, you know, a violent attack on another
human being." Now, as Mr. Voth would say, I read that correctly, didn't I?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. And so first of all, Chris Brown's estate doesn't exist yet because he's still alive, correct?

A. Correct.
ich

Q. What did you mean when you answered the question the way that you did from...

A. I...
mM

Q. ...I think that was from Sabrina Strong. What did you mean?

A. Well, the suggestion, I think, from the government was that with a living artist, there's no control
over their conduct. And Chris Brown was an example of somebody that is doing things that are
probably detrimental their... to their career. And I think the hypothesis was that, once an artist passes
away, that's no longer possible and you inherit the reputation that they have. My answer there was
correct insofar as it went. But quite frankly, we all get the benefit of experience. And what happened
a

subsequent to that deposition was, with the estate, we're finally able to actually secure a real name and
likeness license right... using the rights of publicity. It was going to be an ad where Michael was
Te

pictured wearing a particular kind of shoe. And we were thrilled and excited that we got that. And
then...

Q. Let's stop for a moment. Was that from Bass Shoes?


w.

A. Correct.

Q. Now, when you say we were excited about it, was that because you believed... we believed that we
ww

had gotten past some of the issues with Michael's name and likeness?
om
A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And... When was that Bass Shoe deal being contemplated?

n.c
A. It was about one year ago.

Q. And you were referring to Mr. Brown's attack on Rihanna, correct?

A. Correct. Among other things, but yes.

so
Q. That was the major thing, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

ck
Q. All right. And so your thought in giving that answer... correct me if I'm wrong... your thought giving
that answer was that you were comparing that to the Michael Jackson situation that we had hoped to get
past the taint of the allegations regarding children and rebuild and rebrand his image. Would that be

lJa
correct?

A. Correct. And as I testified earlier, yesterday, one of the goals with the movie This Is It was to show
Michael as the great artistic genius that he was as opposed to the tabloid sensation and connected to
these allegations.
ae
Q. So that answer assumes that over time, given the efforts we were involved in, we would get past that
taint, correct?
ich

A. Correct.

Q. Now, in 2015 or maybe early 2016, around there, when Bass Shoes came to us for a... an
endorsement, so to speak, correct?
mM

A. Correct.

Q. What happened?

A. What happened was that there was a flurry of activity in the Wade Robson case and related cases.
a

Q. I'm not sure the Judge knows what you're referring to. So the Wade Robson case and the James
Safechuck case? Is that the other case?
Te

A. Correct.

Q. What do those cases involve? Or what cases are you referring to?
w.

A. These are two allegations of some sort of molestation or sexual contact when Mr. Robson and Mr.
Safechuck were minors while Michael was alive.
ww

Q. And those cases were filed, if you recall, in 2013?


om
A. Correct.

Q. And then wasn't there a new case filed about a year ago, maybe a little bit less, by some young lady
who said Michael had molested her?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. So tell us what happened with Bass Shoes.

so
A. So when this third case was filed, it reinvigorated the press coverage of the first two cases. It then
found... it found its way into the press, and Bass Shoes withdrew their offer. And they said they could
not associate with Michael or have him endorse their product.

ck
Q. Did they tell you why?

A. Because of the allegations.

lJa
Q. So the allegations that we attempted to distance ourself from are still present, and those cases are
pending, correct?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. And when you talk about... my words... name and likeness or rights of publicity, at least in your
experience dealing with artists over the years, what do you understand "name and likeness, right of
publicity" to involve if you represent an artist?
ich

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion.

Judge Holmes: He's asking specifically for his understanding of that, which might affect the reporting
of ??. That's okay. You can answer. What's your understanding?
mM

Mr. Branca: My understanding is it's the use of the name and likeness separate and not involving the
use of the recordings or... and the music.

Mr. Weitzman: So it's you coming to me... this is clearly hypothetical... you coming to me and using
my name and likeness to promote your clothing line or a pair of shoes, correct?
a

A. It... yeah, it could be to promote somebody else's product, yes. It also could be to put name and
likeness on a t-shirt, a coffee mug, a school notebook.
Te

Q. I'm thinking that's not going to happen with me, but this is all hypothetical.

A. Well, I'd be interested.


w.

Q. And is it fair to say that during the time you represented Michael... so and I'm looking for your
personal experience... of the 1993 period on that it was... that you all were not able to get sponsorship,
endorsement, name and likeness, merchandise deals?
ww

A. We were not able to get sponsorship or endorsement. And while there were occasionally products, it
om
was not a substantial source of income. There was some merchandise. But it was...

Q. By the way, you have represented a number of musicians, successful musicians, over the years,
correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. In fact... you correct me if I'm wrong because there may have been more selections... there were,
like, 16 or 17 of your clients are in the Music Hall of Fame ?

so
A. Well, I've represented more than 30 members of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Q. Okay. Well, that's the... well, okay.

ck
A. Not all at the same time.

Q. That's above my pay grade. Okay. And the point I'm making is those are well-known personalities in

lJa
the music business, correct?

A. Correct. ae
Q. And have you engaged and represented some of those musicians in making name and likeness or
merchandise or endorsement deals?

A. Correct.
ich

Q. Give us... not all three... a few examples of who you've represented that have made those type of
deals.

A. Well, back during the heyday of their career, the Backstreet Boys would have been one. I've done
mM

work for the Rolling Stones, the Doors, Carlos Santana, the Bee Gee's...

Q. And...

A. ...Aerosmith.

Q. ...you still do some work for most of the people, don't you?
a

A. Yeah. Yes.
Te

Q. And what type of income could you expect to make from those type of deals?

A. I mean, it varies. You know, I found that an artist in the early parts of their career when they're
w.

younger and have a younger audience tend to be more able to generate income from endorsements and
products. And as they age, it's less likely, but there are exceptions. There are some artists like the
Rolling Stones that build up the value of their names, the world's greatest rock and roll band, and still
are able to license. But even then, the amount of money that comes from name and likeness is very,
ww

very small compared to the money they receive for personal services on tour.
om
Q. And so you were... Michael was fortunate at certain points of his career to get some large dollar
amounts from endorsements or name and likeness, correct?

A. Correct. In the '80s, Michael had a lot of opportunities to generate that time... type of income.

n.c
Q. And you were asked about two deals yesterday. One I think was Entertainment Partners, and one of
those was LA Gear. And those were both failed efforts, weren't they?

A. Well, I never liked to use the word failed.

so
Q. I didn't... it's not about Michael Jackson. The merchandise didn't do well both times, did it?

A. Correct.

ck
Q. And both times, the people that paid Michael Jackson large amounts of money lost money. They
didn't make money under their investments, correct?

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. In fact, Entertainment Partners only ?? went out of business, in large part, because of the financial
situation they incurred with respect to the merchandise we're talking about. Isn't that correct?
ae
A. Correct. I think it was Entertainment Properties. But that is correct.

Q. Entertainment Properties. EP, right? I can get the ??. And Mr. Sullivan... I think you've testified
ich
about this. But I don't... Mr. Sullivan and his family had to divest... had to sell their interest in the New
England Patriots and the interest in the stadium that the Patriots were playing in at that time, correct?

A. Correct.
mM

Q. And LA Gear, is it your recollection that they ultimately went into bankruptcy and, in fact, sued
Michael Jackson?

A. I believe that's correct.

Q. And since those events took place... or I'm sorry. Let me ask. Did you remember not the date, but the
year or years when the Entertainment Property deal took place?
a

A. I think it started at 1984 or '85, that period.


Te

Q. And that was during the Dangerous album and tour?

A. No, that was the Victory tour... following the Victory tour.
w.

Q. Okay. That was in the '80s. All right.

A. Yeah.
ww

Q. So the LA Gear, when did that take place?


om
A. That deal started in the late '80s. I don't recall if it was '88, '89... approximately at that time.

Q. And did that involve the Dangerous tour? Or am I getting things mixed up?

n.c
A. No, that contemplated a tour in connection with the release of the shoes. I wasn't there at the
conclusion of that deal or the... I was not involved in the Dangerous tour. But it did contemplate the
release of an album.

so
Q. Okay. And that would have been the Dangerous album?

A. Yes.

ck
Q. And then in 1993, the allegations from Mr. Chandler, then young Mr. Chandler took place, correct?

A. Correct.

lJa
Q. And was it from that point forward that the problems surfaced with you being able to get
endorsement merchandise deals for Mr. Jackson?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. And is it your belief and your experience during those times that you represented him that it was
because of the allegations regarding the children?
ich
A. That was a significant part of it. As I said, as artists get older, their fan base gets older, and they'd be
less apt to purchase tchotchkes merchandise. But in significant part, it was the allegations.

Q. Tchotchkes being the institutional term. Is that correct?


mM

A. Yeah, exactly.

Q. Okay. I just want to make sure I didn't miss anything before I go on here. All right. So fast-forward
now. When there was the meeting that took place six days after Michael died upstairs at Mr. Chow's,
was there any conversation of rebranding or recreating of Michael Jackson's image?

A. Not at that point.


a

Q. After that dinner, did you have a conversation with Randy Phillips about rehearsal footage?
Te

A. At some point after that dinner, Randy made us aware that there was some footage available from
the rehearsals.
w.

Q. Okay. And now, what happened next, just kind of in summary form, in your conversations with
Randy? In other words, we heard yesterday about Gianopulos. And... but what happened with the
Randy conversation?
ww

A. Well, what happened was that we decided to see what the footage looked like, what it... what did it
sound like, whether there might be enough footage to create a TV program or, you know, something
om
that could possibly generate some income. AEG had advanced between 35 and $40 million. So they
were looking to do anything they could. So we had to first determine whether there was even enough
footage to even think about doing something.

n.c
Q. Now, at that point in time, was it AEG's position that they owned the footage and they were
basically doing us a favor?

A. It was their position that they owned the footage, that they paid for it, they had possession of it.

so
Q. So at the time of these conversations, we were dealing with a particular intellectual property asset
that someone else said they owned, correct?

A. Correct.

ck
Q. So...

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, can we have this document marked next in order? It's a copyright
registration, and I'd like to put it before Mr. Branca.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 707-P is marked for identification.


ae
Mr. Weitzman: Could you take a look at those documents for a moment, Mr. Branca?

A. Okay.
ich

Q. Have you had a chance to review them?

A. I did.
mM

Q. Okay. These are copies of a public document from the United States Copyright Office, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And the first page... well, really, I guess it's the first two pages... deal with a copyright registration
for the rehearsal footage of June 23rd, 2009, and June 24th, 2009, correct?
a

A. Correct.
Te

Q. And the copyright claimant is AEG, correct?

A. Correct.
w.

Q. But you didn't know about this at the time this happened, did you?

A. Excuse me?
ww

Q. You didn't know about this at the time it happened, did you?
om
A. No.

Q. And go to the next two pages. I'm sorry. I overlooked one thing. The first registration is for sound
recordings... a motion picture and a musical composition, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. And what do you understand... today, what do you understand that to refer to?

so
A. A sound recording would have been the audio that was embodied in the videotape.

Q. Of this rehearsal footage, correct?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. And the motion picture would have... what would that have referred to?

lJa
A. Well, you'd probably best ask AEG that. But I'm assuming what they meant was they were taking
the position that if they could create something from this footage in the terms of a motion picture, they
would own the copyright. ae
Q. Well, I mean, doesn't motion picture refer to the footage?

A. Correct.
ich
Q. Or maybe that's what you said. And third, it says Musical Composition. What does that mean?

A. Well, that one's hard to understand. But what it means is they were claiming copyright ownership to
the songs that were performed in the tape.
mM

Q. By the way, to the best of your recollection, all the songs that were performed were songs that
Michael Jackson had either recorded or written and recorded, correct?

A. Well, he had not written all of the songs that he performed. But he had written many of them.

Q. It'd be a fair statement to say, to the best of your knowledge, AEG hadn't written any of the songs
that were sung or partially sung in that... on that rehearsal footage, correct?
a

A. Correct.
Te

Q. So that would be a bit aggressive on their part?

A. Extremely aggressive.
w.

Q. And the second registration on Pages 3 and 4, it says, "Type of work, pre-registration," and, "Type
of work, motion picture." Does that refer, at least to the best of your understanding, to the footage, too?
ww

A. Correct.
om
Q. The footage as well? Sorry.

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. And then the third registration, Pages 5 and 6, "Type of work, pre-registered," what does that refer
to?

A. Photographs taken at the rehearsals.

so
Q. So as of the date of these registrations, the estate did not have any copyright ownership in the
footage or in the sound of the footage, correct?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry.

Q. Was it your understanding that the estate had no copyright ownership based on this registration?

lJa
A. That was AEG's position, clearly.

Q. All right. And so yesterday you were asked questions regarding footage. And let's see if you can
ae
recall... I'm sure you can... what happened. Was there litigation regarding the footage?

A. There was, yes.


ich
Q. Not involving AEG, though, correct?

A. No. We reached a proposed settlement with AEG.

Q. All right. And did you discuss prior to the... arriving at a settlement with AEG a potential litigation
mM

over these copyright issues?

A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that?

Q. Did you discuss before a settlement was released with... was reached with AEG potential litigation
over the copyright issues?
a

A. Yeah. I mean, it was a very aggressive and contentious conversation between the estate and AEG.
Te

Q. That's kind of kind.

A. Very contentious. And so there was a lot of sabre rattling, if you will, before a settlement was
reached.
w.

Q. By sabre rattling, do you mean we got into some heated conversations with AEG?

A. Heated conversations, threats of litigation, et cetera.


ww

Q. And it was litigation over the ownership of the copyrights, correct?


om
A. Yeah. And the right to use the footage. Correct.

Q. Okay. I mean, it wasn't litigation over name and likeness or right of publicity, was it?

n.c
A. No.

Q. And so the... there was a resolution reached with AEG, correct?

so
A. Correct.

Q. And then there was a... my word now... bidding process with some of the major studios to see if
anyone was interested in creating a film using some of this rehearsal footage that you described a bit

ck
yesterday, correct?

A. Correct. Correct. After a review of the footage to make sure there was even enough, yes.

lJa
Q. All right. Well, then let me just do this chronology. So by the way, these copyrights, you didn't find
out about them until discussions with AEG took place, did you?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. And their position early on was that... what they owned. And in fact, some of the early drafts of term
sheets showed that AEG owns the...
ich
A. Correct.

Q. ...copyrights, correct?

A. Yes.
mM

Q. And do you remember the first proposal by AEG as to how profits might be split?

A. I don't recall, no.

Mr. Weitzman: May I have just a moment...


a

Judge Holmes: Okay.


Te

Mr. Weitzman: ...Your Honor? Can this be marked next in order? By the way, hold on for a
second. ...Technical difficulty.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 708-P is marked for identification.


w.

Mr. Voth: Hold on. This is already marked in the stipulation.

Mr. Weitzman: It looks that way. Is that what the 595-R is?
ww

Male: Yeah.
om
Mr. Voth: Correct.

Male: Yeah.

n.c
Female: Has the stipulation been summoned yet?

Male: That's part of the stipulated... those are some emails that...

so
Mr. Camp: And so this is the third stip?

Male: The third stip.

ck
Mr. Camp: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: What does that mean, Mr. Camp?

lJa
Mr. Camp: It means we haven't quite finalized that third stip, although this document has already been
marked. So...
It's a bit ambiguous, Mr. Weitzman. ae
Judge Holmes: Would you like to clarify the ambiguity, Mr. Weitzman?

Mr. Weitzman: I don't have a clue, but I'm going to try. But my question to Your Honor is should we
mark it or should we use the 595-R.
ich

Judge Holmes: Let's go with 708-P. We don't have the third stip yet. So 708-P.

Court Clerk: We did reserve numbers for the exhibit ??.


mM

Judge Holmes: We'll see if they ever come in.

Court Clerk: This document will be marked as 708-P.

Mr. Weitzman: 708, correct?

Court Clerk: 708.


a

Mr. Weitzman: Mr. Branca, have you had a chance to look at the document?
Te

Mr. Branca: Yes.

Q. And this is an email that is from Steve Burkow. Who is Steve Burkow?
w.

A. Steve is one of the partners in our law firm.

Q. Okay. And Mr. Burkow worked with you in dealing with the Jackson estate and the terms for the
ww

This Is It deal with the studio?


om
A. Correct.

Q. And turning to Pages 2 and 3 of this exhibit, which was a term sheet with Paramount, do you recall
this term sheet?

n.c
A. Not specifically, but it...

Q. All right. Then just close it up because you don't. Do you remember dealing with... do you want to
take a minute to review it?

so
A. I just looked at it, yeah.

Q. Okay. Do you recall conversations taking place with Paramount?

ck
A. Yeah, I do.

Q. And do you recall what Paramount's proposal was in terms of a guarantee to the licensors?

lJa
A. My... I see it in here that they guaranteed a minimum of $50 million in print and ad expenses, yep,
and $50 million... ae
Q. And...

A. ...in compensation.
ich
Q. ...were they referencing, the bottom of the page, AEG footage?

A. Yes.

Q. At the time there were negotiations taking place with the studios, Paramount... and I think we were
mM

talking to Universal, Fox, Sony, correct? Were we also talking to Walden Films, if you recall?

A. Yes.

Q. And who were Walden Films?

A. Walden Films, I believe, was Phil Anschutz's company.


a

Q. And Mr. Anschutz is the owner of AEG, correct?


Te

A. Yes. Anschutz Entertainment Group.

Q. So we were talking the four majors and a rather well-funded production company, correct?
w.

A. Correct.

Q. Which would be Walden. Okay. So the studios, as of July 16th, 2009, were referring to the footage
ww

as AEG's footage, correct?


om
A. Correct.

Q. So would it be fair to say while the negotiations were taking place with the studio, we were also
negotiating with AEG with respect to the footage?

n.c
A. Correct. In fact, a good fair amount of the negotiations with the studios were being conducted by
AEG.

Q. Rather than by...

so
A. Rather than by the estate, yeah.

Q. ...the estate, correct? And it was being conducted by AEG because they took the position they had,

ck
the copyrights and the ownership of those assets, correct?

A. Correct.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Can we take a morning break, Your Honor?

Judge Holmes: Sure. ae


Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.

Court Clerk: All rise.


ich
(Recess)

Court Clerk: All rise. The court is in session.

Judge Holmes: Please be seated. Back to you, Mr. Weitzman.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor. So - -

Male: ??.

Mr. Weitzman: Oh, I'm sorry.


a

Male: Sorry.
Te

Mr. Weitzman: That's okay.

Q. So you started negotiating, and you also told us you were reviewing the footage, correct?
w.

Mr. Branca: Correct.

Q. And what were you reviewing the footage for?


ww

A. Several things. First of all, we wanted to make sure there was enough footage to create a program.
And initially, we didn't know if we had a potential TV show, motion picture. We needed to make sure
om
that there was enough footage, that the audio was usable. And again, as I've testified, Michael Jackson
would never commercially release rehearsal footage. So in deciding whether or not to release the
footage, we had to make sure that it portrayed Michael in a positive light. I mean, after all, rehearsals
are rehearsals. Nobody's perfect in rehearsals. And Michael was a perfectionist. So in making that leap

n.c
that we would put out rehearsal footage, we needed to make sure it would show Michael in a positive
light.

Q. Isn't it a fact that there was a lot of footage you would never want to see the light of day?

so
A. Yeah. I'm sure there... yeah, there... I mean, there was some footage that, you know, you wouldn't
release, yeah.

Q. And about how many hours of raw footage was there?

ck
A. I don't recall.

Q. But did you personally see some footage that you would not have wanted released, let alone

lJa
Michael wouldn't have wanted released?

A. No. I instructed Kenny Ortega and Randy Phillips and others that we would not want to release
footage that did not portray Michael in a positive light. So quite frankly, the footage that I looked at I
was okay with.
ae
Q. Okay. And then you... did you put together a sizzle reel, so to speak, to show the studios?
ich
A. Yes.

Q. And how long was that reel?

A. Approximately five minutes.


mM

Q. And sizzle reel means what?

A. Highlights, give somebody a sense of what it might look like when you put it all together.

Q. And so then the bidding process started. And I think you told us you ended up with Sony. Is that
correct?
a

A. We ended up with Sony, yes.


Te

Q. Now, did this film... that is, the ability to go ahead and try to make the film require court approval to
enter into an agreement with Sony?
w.

A. Yes, it did require court approval, and there was actually a contested hearing where there were
parties opposing the steal .. .

Q. All right. So let's talk about... first of all, the lawyers told you you needed court approval. So is it
ww

fair to say that, as of the 1st of August, 2009, we could not go forward with any film... that is, trying to
make a film... because we needed court approval?
om
A. That's correct.

Q. And because we needed court approval, as you said, there was a trial, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. And the deal... that is, the deal with the studio so we could go forward and try to make a film out of
this... was opposed by some members of the Jackson family, correct?

so
A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And their... and I think you said this yesterday, but I wanted to double-check... their objection

ck
was that, as you said, this was not something Michael would have wanted released, correct?

A. Correct.

lJa
Q. And secondly, they didn't want to be in business with AEG, did they?

A. That is correct. ae
Q. And as a matter of fact, as it turned out, Ms. Jackson did end up filing a wrongful death lawsuit
against AEG, correct?

A. Yes. That illustrates the antipathy that certain members of the family have for AEG.
ich

Q. She ended up losing that litigation. But the litigation... the lawsuit was filed and did... was set for
trial, right?

A. Correct.
mM

Q. So in this trial, you and others testified, and Ms. Jackson and her lawyers cross-examined you and
presented witnesses, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And we didn't know whether we would win or lose the trial, did we?
a

A. No, we did not.


Te

Q. And if we lost the trial, this reasonably foreseeable film would not have happened, right?

A. That is correct.
w.

Q. By the way, could AEG with the copyrighted footage that they said they owned gone ahead and
made a film without the estate?
ww

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion.


om
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman: They could have released a film. We would not have granted synch licenses for use of
the music. But just as there's a Britney Spears movie that's about... a film that's about to be released

n.c
without her consent, they do... they are not allowed to use the music, but they are doing a biopic on
Britney Spears.

Q. The same thing happened with Jimi Hendrix, didn't it?

so
A. That is correct.

Q. So the footage could have been released without name and likeness, correct?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. And is it your understanding that a name and likeness is not required to release a biopic about a
public figure?

lJa
A. Correct.

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion.

Mr. Weitzman: It calls for his understanding.


ae
Judge Holmes: Okay. For his understanding then.
ich

Mr. Weitzman: And that answer's incorrect? Yes?

Judge Holmes: Okay. You can answer it as to your understanding.


mM

Mr. Branca: Correct. Thank you.

Q. So as of the time of the hearing, the trial, which was mid-August 2009, we, the estate, had no idea if
we would be allowed to make this film or not, correct?

A. Correct. We were pressing very hard to go forward with the deal. And we pressed very hard in the
court. And Judge Beckloff indicated to us if we pressed him too hard if... to have a decision on that day,
a

he would deny it.


Te

Q. He did say that... that was another day, not the trial day.

A. Correct.
w.

Q. He said that, as you understand it, to me, correct?

A. Yeah.
ww

Q. Yeah.
om
A. Yeah.

Q. But ultimately, we had the trial, and he approved our entry into... despite the objections into the deal
with Columbia, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. And you were present in court. Was part of the presentation explained to Judge Beckloff, the judge
who still has jurisdiction over the probate of the Jackson estate, that we needed money to pay bills and

so
for the estate to survive and please give us an opportunity to make some money, correct?

A. Correct.

ck
Q. Now, at the time this was all taking place, was the estate in financial jeopardy?

A. Yes.

lJa
Q. And other than this project, did we have any other projects that we were attempting to get off the
ground? That is, mid-July...

Mr. Weitzman: Go ahead.


ae
Mr. Voth: Not an objection. Just Respondent would like to just get some clarification as to how much
longer Mr. Weitzman has to go, given that today we're going to do the direct of Mr. Anson towards
name and likeness report. So we're just a little bit concerned about time. Just
ich

Judge Holmes: Fair enough. Mr. Weitzman, how much longer do you think?

Mr. Voth: A lot of it seems cumulative, given Mr. Branca's testimony the first day of trial. So
mM

Judge Holmes: Some of the stories are the same. But again, are you almost done?

Mr. Weitzman: I guess it depends on how one interprets almost. But I don't think it'll be more than an
hour because, given... and I assume we'll take a lunch break in 30, 40 minutes. And I'm betting I can...
if I'm not done by then, we can tear it down when I get back.

Judge Holmes: Fair...


a

Mr. Voth: Respondent proposes then, if at all possible, that Mr. Weitzman complete his recross... his
Te

cross of Mr. Branca before we go to lunch.

Judge Holmes: I think that's reasonable. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.


w.

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Did you say that's reasonable?

Judge Holmes: Yeah. We'll get it... we can take a little bit of a late lunch?
ww

Mr. Weitzman: Really? Okay.


om
Q. Did... while all this was going on with AEG and their position that they owned the footage and the
negotiations with the studio, did you and I have a meeting or two with Mr. Tohme Tohme?

A. Yes, we did.

n.c
Q. Do you remember the month that we met with Mr. Tohme Tohme?

A. I believe it was in July.

so
Q. And these meetings were at your office?

A. Correct.

ck
Q. And do you remember the subject of our meetings with Mr. Tohme?

A. Well, part of our duties as executives were to marshal the assets. So we wanted to ask Mr. Tohme if
he had any of Mr. Jackson's money or assets in his possession and also to get an inventory of any

lJa
projects that might have been in the works or any ideas or other leads that we could follow up on to
generate income.

Q. And did Mr. Tohme ever mention to you or I that he had projects in process?
ae
Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for hearsay, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: No, it doesn't. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.


ich

Mr. Branca: No, never at any time did he mention any project that might be possible in progress or
that he'd heard about.

Mr. Weitzman: Didn't mention Cirque?


mM

A. No, not at all.

Q. Okay. Didn't mention some film?

A. No.
a

Q. Didn't mention videogames?


Te

A. No.

Q. He didn't mention any projects at all, did he?


w.

A. No, he did not.

Q. Now, you were asked about the deal that was ultimately approved by the court on August 21st,
2009. And the terms involve a $60 million number, correct?
ww

A. Correct.
om
Q. Now, the estate didn't get $60 million, did it?

A. No.

n.c
Q. Okay. Can you roughly repeat to us how that money was divided up?

A. Well, AEG was reimbursed for the costs that they had outlaid, which was approximately $38
million... 36, $38 million. The production cost of the movie... synch licenses, fees to the director, et

so
cetera... were approximately 12, $12.5 million. I'm doing this from memory. And so you had about $50
million go out in costs.

Q. Okay. By the way, it does cost to do these projects, correct?

ck
A. Yes.

Q. The studio has to invest money.

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. And the production costs, print and ad ads, and all that, correct?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. Did Sony pay any money in addition to the $60 million to help with the marketing activity?
ich

A. Yes. They had what you... what's called a print and ad budget for marketing.

Q. What was the print and ad budget?


mM

A. I don't recall. I'm sure it was substantial, perhaps in the range of $50 million.

Q. So the deal with Columbia involved the footage, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And we had settled with AEG, we being the estate, so that it was the two entities that made the deal
a

with Columbia, correct?


Te

A. Correct.

Q. And there was also use of music in the film, correct?


w.

A. Yes. Licenses had to be obtained both for the songs themselves from the music publishers. And
because the audio was incomplete and unusable in its current form, master use licenses had to be
obtained from the record company.
ww

Q. And there was no name and likeness separate deal involved in this, was there?
om
A. No.

Q. By the way, in your experience and in your opinion, and not legal opinion, what would have
happened if the court had not approved the deal?

n.c
A. There... I can't speak for AEG, but they may well have put out the footage without music. But there
wouldn't have been a film as we saw it.

Q. And what would have been the impact on the estate of Michael Jackson?

so
A. Disastrous.

Q. Like bankrupt disastrous?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. When is the first time... you told us about this yesterday... the first time, broadly, you recall speaking

lJa
with Cirque... meeting and speaking with Cirque?

A. Well, after the inquiry from Rene Angelil, I eventually flew to Montreal to meet with Guy Laliberte
and Daniel Lamarre.
ae
Q. Now, before you got the communication from Rene, was there any discussion amongst the Jackson
team, for lack of a better phrase... the Jackson team about a show partnering with Cirque du Soleil?
ich
A. Not that I recall. No, absolutely not, not partnering with Cirque du Soleil.

Q. Okay. And by the way, once the film started taking place, that... by taking place, I mean being
produced... that was after the trial, correct?
mM

A. Correct.

Q. And you all were doing some early work just in case we got the approval. But the real production
didn't start until after the trial, correct?

A. Correct.
a

Q. Now, on Cirque, when you went up to Montreal, you told us the last time you testified you met with
Guy Laliberte and with Daniel Lamarre, correct?
Te

A. Correct.

Q. And what did you have in mind, if you had anything in mind, about what you wanted to do with
w.

Cirque?

A. I was hoping that they would be interested in putting together a show... a resident show in Las
Vegas.
ww

Q. And when you say a... putting together a resident show, are you talking about using Michael's
om
music?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. And what was that idea based on?

A. Well, they had a show based on the Beatles music, and it was my hope that we could try to create a
show based on Michael's music.

so
Q. And did Guy, my phrase, float another idea to you besides a possible residency show?

A. Yes. He was interested in creating a show that could tour around to cities around the world based on
Michael's music.

ck
Q. And that... it also involved Cirque's discipline and their assets...

A. Oh...

lJa
Q. ...correct?

A. ...heavily. This was not an impersonator show. It was a newly... it would have been... it was to be a
ae
newly created show using Cirque acrobats. And in the case of the traveling show, we ended up using a
live band as part of the show, which included several musicians from Michael's band.

Q. Okay. And the show had never been done before, correct?
ich

A. Never been done before.

Q. So basically, it was a live concert with Cirque acrobats that traveled worldwide, correct?
mM

A. Correct.

Q. And were you told, in effect, by the Cirque people that they probably wouldn't do a residency show
unless we agreed to do the road show?

A. Pretty much. Guy really was focused on trying to do this touring show. And I thought it was a little
speculative, and I wanted to try to persuade him to do a show that would reside in Las Vegas.
a

Q. And ultimately, the estate did a deal with Cirque to do a residency show, correct?
Te

A. Correct.

Q. Now, were you and others from the estate involved in helping create... create... the two Cirque
w.

shows, which were Immortal and the ONE show?

A. Yes, we were.
ww

Q. And when you say involved, just kind of in a summary fashion, can you tell me what that involved?
om
A. Well, we outlined the songs that we felt should be used in the show. We suggested that the live band
be used if we were going to try to create a concert setting. We were even more involved, however, for
the ONE show because, having been through it once with Cirque on the Immortal show, I got a pretty
good idea of what we needed to do. I've studied the other Cirque shows in Las Vegas, so we were very

n.c
involved in making suggestions on what the visuals and some of the content would be.

Q. And did you... were you working on both shows simultaneously? Or was it first the Immortal, which
is the traveling show? I like to call it a road show. Traveling show sounds circus-like, but maybe it was.
Did you do the Immortal first and then the ONE show or both together?

so
A. Yeah, the focus really was on the Immortal show because it's a big endeavor to do these shows, and
it takes a long time and a lot of work and a lot of people. So quite frankly, Cirque had in mind another
director for the ONE show. We kind of insisted on Jamie King to direct the Immortal show. And then

ck
for the ONE show, they had in mind the French or a Canadian director who I was forced to meet with
on a couple occasions and was very nervous. His... he had done an art film about a red violin, and I
really didn't think that would capture what we were looking for in the Michael Jackson show. So at one
point, Cirque said we don't want to argue with you. We will bring Jamie King back to do the second

lJa
show. So really, the Immortal show was pretty much created before the real focus was started on the
ONE show.

Q. And the Immortal show was basically created in late 2009. Is that correct?
ae
A. I would say 2010. I mean, it started in late 2009, yeah.

Q. By the way, did the deal for... with Cirque... what did that deal involve? Is there one deal, two deals?
ich

A. Well, there are two separate deals. And the financing for the show... each show cost between 40 and
$50 million to create, not including marketing and advertising. And Cirque wanted us to put up half of
the money for the show, i.e., 20 to $25 million, which as, if you listened to my testimony, we were not
in a position to do. The Beatles had done that. The Beatles had actually invested in half of the cost of
mM

the show. And that was the reason why they got half of the profits as an investor. So I basically took the
position with Cirque that we needed... we wanted and expected them to front all of the costs on our
behalf in return for which we would get credit for half of the money. There was an interest charge for
them putting up our half of the money. And thereby, we obtained 50 percent of the profits.

Q. After they recouped.


a

A. After they recouped.


Te

Q. And was that for both shows?

A. For both shows.


w.

Q. And did Cirque talk to you about doing an Elvis-like show?

A. Well, you know, what happened on the Beatles show was that George Harrison had a relationship,
one of the Beatles, with Guy. So the living Beatles were very, very, very involved in the creation of that
ww

show, which could not have been the case, obviously, with the Michael shows. They then went to create
an Elvis show, which was not successful and which closed after a few months, and they lost money.
om
Q. In the Elvis show, was there, like, an Elvis impersonator in the show?

A. Well, I wouldn't say an Elvis impersonator. But no, there was not an impersonator. I guess there...

n.c
Elvis was evoked in the show, but it was mostly Cirque visuals and occasionally footage of Elvis.

Q. One second.

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. This is... I'll do it fast.

so
Q. So the cost to do the... both the Immortal show, the road show, and the residency show, as you recall
it, was 40 to $50 million per show.

ck
A. Correct. It's a lot different than creating an impersonator show or some...

Q. Yeah. By the way, there's an impersonator show now in Las Vegas, isn't there?

lJa
A. Yes. There's a show called MJ Live.

Q. And MJ Live... actually, we... I don't know if you were here that time period. I know you're here
every day. But in the particular time period that we showed a clip of some of the MJ Live art and all
that, I don't know if you were here that day.
ae
A. I was not here that day. But unfortunately, I've seen it throughout Las Vegas on billboards.
ich
Q. Okay. Did the MJ Live people come to the estate to license a name and likeness or right of publicity
rights?

A. No, they did not.


mM

Q. And as a matter of fact, did we contact the people in Las Vegas and try to get them to shut that show
down or come to us for some license?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. And what was the result of our efforts?


a

A. If I could paraphrase what they said, they said take a walk.


Te

Q. And the show's still going on.

A. The show is still going on. And in fact, there's a billboard for the show right in front of Mandalay
Bay where our show is advertising MJ Live.
w.

Q. And they don't have, to the best of your knowledge, any music that is the masters from Michael
Jackson, do they?
ww

A. No, they did not... they do not.


om
Q. But do they use Michael Jackson music... that is, music that was either recorded by Michael even
though it's not the masters or songs that were written by Michael...

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. ...in their show?

A. Yes, they do.

so
Q. Well, how do they do that...

A. That...

ck
Q. ...if they didn't come to the estate?

A. They use a performing rights license, not unlike if you're at a baseball game or a jukebox. You get a
license from the performing rights organization.

lJa
Q. So they don't need our name and likeness... our being the estate. You know, they don't need the
estate's name and likeness, as you understand it, to have their show up and running in Las Vegas.
ae
A. Correct.

Q. And you mentioned a Britney Spears film, the Lifetime movie. Is it your understanding they didn't
need Britney Spears name and likeness to do that film?
ich

A. Correct. There is a film that is being made, a biopic about Britney Spears that she does not want
made... but she had no right to stop it... that will be aired in the next month or two. They do not,
however, have the right to use her music because she did not give them a license.
mM

Q. So is that what they call an unauthorized film?

A. Correct.

Q. And was that the same thing that happened with the Jimi Hendrix biopic?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Asked and answered. Cumulative, Your Honor.


a

Judge Holmes: That one's sustained.


Te

Mr. Weitzman: In the Jimi Hendrix film, did they get Jimi Hendrix music in that film?

A. No, they did not.


w.

Q. They made the film anyway without his music, correct?

A. Correct.
ww

Mr. Voth: Objection. Asked and answered.


om
Judge Holmes: That one's sustained.

Mr. Weitzman: Now, in the Cirque shows, is there a royalty or a license for name and likeness?

n.c
Mr. Branca: Which show?

Q. Either show, if there is.

so
A. In the ONE show, there is not. There is a royalty paid for use of the masters and a royalty paid for
use of the songs. In the Immortal show, there was a royalty paid for the use of the masters. There was a
royalty paid for the use of the songs. And in the negotiations with Cirque, since they had never done a
traveling show, I asked them to pay us a royalty for the use of Michael's name and likeness. I also asked

ck
for it in the ONE show, and they said no. But in the traveling show, they initially did give us a royalty,
an extra royalty, for name and likeness. That royalty ended up getting reduced and going away because
the cost of the show as so prohibitive that they couldn't continue to pay it.

lJa
Q. And to be blunt, was this your style to try to get some additional dollars for the estate?

A. Yeah, it was a grab. I wanted to get a better deal than the Beatles...
ae
Q. Did you say grab?

A. Land grab.
ich
Q. Okay.

A. Sorry. It was...

Q. It's a legal term.


mM

A. Yes. It's in Black's Law dictionary if...

I wanted to get a better deal than the Beatles had. So we did get them to finance both shows and put up
our half of the investment. And it was just a way, a technique, to try to get some more money out of
them, which they gave us initially on the Immortal show but never on the ONE show.
a

Q. Okay. You were asked yesterday about Heal the World... and do you... and enforcing rights, the right
of publicity and name and likeness by Mr. Block . Do you recall your testimony yesterday about
Te

instructing the lawyers to enforce, if possible, intellectual property rights for the estate of Michael
Jackson?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. So you didn't get a... give a complete answer yesterday. What was your... what is your reason for
incurring legal fees... that is, your incurring legal fees that the estate pays... to the lawyers to enforce
these rights?
ww

A. That is to protect the Michael Jackson brand, to protect the music. Most of the revenue we derive is
om
from the use of Michael's music... the masters and the songs. And we want the consumer to associate a
certain level of quality with the use of Michael's assets. It's not so much that we're going to therefore
make substantial revenue from rights of publicity. But on the other hand, we do not want the revenue
from the music assets to be affected by a dilution and a low-quality use of any of our intellectual

n.c
property.

Q. The reality is we haven't made very much at all from forcing these rights, have we?

A. That's correct.

so
Q. The video dance game... was that something that was discussed at the time Michael died, shortly
after Michael died, at our dinner at Mr. Chow's?

ck
A. No.

Q. The first time that videogame came on our radar was sometime after Michael passed away?

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. Mr. Tohme didn't tell us about any videogame?


ae
A. No.

Q. You were asked yesterday about unreleased recordings, and there was a press statement by Tommy
Mottola that you were read. Do you recall that?
ich

A. Yes.

Q. First of all, you know Tommy, don't you?


mM

A. I do.

Q. And when was the last time Tommy Mottola was involved with Michael Jackson?

A. That would have been, I believe, the Invincible album in 2002.

Q. And at that time, Tommy was chair of a record label?


a

A. Yes, he was the chairman of Sony Music.


Te

Q. Okay. And by the way, did Tommy Mottola, to the best of your knowledge during the time you
represented Michael Jackson, sit in recording sessions at the recording studio when Michael Jackson
was recording?
w.

A. No. And during the Invincible era, Michael and Tommy did not have a good relationship. I don't
think Michael wanted to have much to do with Tommy Mottola.
ww

Q. Okay. But Tommy Mottola supposedly gave a quote or an interview in which he said Michael
Jackson had this large number of unreleased songs. Do you recall that?
om
A. Well, I think he said that Michael recorded 20 or 30 songs for each album, which I would disagree
with.

n.c
Q. So let's talk about that because you were asked kind of similar questions by Mr. Voth. And I think
you were here when Mr. Anson testified there were 105 at least, you know, unreleased songs that we
could put on 10 or so albums. To the best of your knowledge, John Branca, are there 100 or are there 50
or are there 25 or 15 complete unreleased songs that we could put on albums today?

so
A. That's... the statement that there are 100 or 50 or 20 or 10 unreleased songs is absurd. We have
combed the vaults, both executives at Sony, Karen Langford...

Q. John Doelp?

ck
A. John Doelp from Sony. We've talked to the engineers that worked with Michael, the producers.
There are no completed songs that are capable of being released. There are maybe one or two
recordings that, with work, as we did on the last album, might be capable of being released, but not in

lJa
their current form. Michael would work on song fragments and song ideas in the connection with an
album. But in the 30 years that Michael recorded between Off the Wall and the time he passed away, he
released six albums and an EP. So he was not prolific in the same period Prince might have released 35
albums. We wish there were more songs because we would like to be able to use them.
ae
Q. But that's my question. Would it be important to the estate if there were songs that were capable of
being produced and released and they could provide revenue? Would that be important to the estate?
ich
A. Absolutely. We have put out two albums of unreleased material, both of which needed producers to
bring them current. And we released one song in connection with the movie This Is It that had been
unreleased, the song called This Is It. So we have put out two albums of material of unreleased
material, both of which were successful. I wish there were more.
mM

Q. So just to kind of put a gloss on this, the estate of Michael Jackson is not hiding songs to be used in
some other era.

A. That's an offensive notion. And as I've said to you and I've tried to say it to the government through
you, we would stipulate, should we find these so-called unreleased songs, that they could be outside of
any settlement or anything else. Nobody is hiding anything.
a

Q. By the way, if the government wanted to split the cost to try and produce these, would we go in
business with them?
Te

A. Absolutely.

Q. Okay. So let's talk about photographs. The estate owns some photographs of Michael Jackson,
w.

correct?

A. We own physical copies. I'm not sure if we own the copyrights on all of them.
ww

Q. Well...
om
A. But for those photographers that worked for Michael as a work for hire, we would own the
copyrights on those photos.

Q. That's what I'm referring to. So there are many photographs that the estate owns because they were

n.c
taken by a photographer under some work-for-hire agreement, and we own the copyrights, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And are there photographs taken of Michael that others...

so
that others control, you know?

A. Yes, I see them in books at times and see them in, you know, newspaper articles, yeah.

ck
Q. Okay. So are you familiar with Getty Images?

A. Correct. Yes, I am. Sorry.

lJa
Q. I want to show you a page from the Getty Images site.

Mr. Weitzman: The clock is ticking on the Judge.


Okay. These images on... Can we make it a little bit... there you go.
ae
Q. These images are on the Getty Images site. Now so that I understand it, these are photographs taken
by photographers that we, we being the estate, do not own, correct?
ich
A. I believe that's the case, yes.

Q. Well, let me ask you this question. Haven't you asked me to... I want to put this kindly... to deal with
Getty Images to see if we could have some control over these photographs?
mM

A. Yes.

Q. And what was the result of my efforts, to the best of your knowledge?

A. I do not believe they were successful.

Q. So these photographs, they can't be used for commercial purposes, can they?
a

A. I'm not sure.


Te

Q. Okay. But as far as you know, these...

A. I see one of Drake in there.


w.

Q. I'm sorry. What?

A. There's a photo of Drake in the middle of our Michael images.


ww

Q. Well, he's a big fan, yeah.


om
A. I have to object.

Mr. Branca: Sorry, Your Honor.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: So these photographs we do not control. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

so
Mr. Weitzman: There's a picture of Beyonce, too.
All right. Thank you, Josh.

Q. But these photographs can be used in books or on the walls of restaurants or...

ck
A. Yes, or they can be...

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for...

lJa
A. ...licensed for shows.

Mr. Voth: ...a legal conclusion unless it's to his understanding.


ae
Mr. Weitzman: That's only his understanding, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Oh, so have you collected any money for such uses of photographs that you don't have
ich
a copyright to?

Mr. Branca: No.

Mr. Weitzman: That's my letter. It didn't work.


mM

Judge Holmes: Would a different lawyer have achieved different results?

Mr. Weitzman: I object...

Female: I don't... you should take the 5th, I think.


a

Judge Holmes: The witness doesn't have to answer.


Te

Mr. Weitzman: Boy, is it a tough crowd.

Mr. Branca: Incidentally, Mr. Weitzman...


w.

Judge Holmes: No, no question pending.

Mr. Branca: Oh, okay.


ww

Mr. Weitzman: Mr. Branca, do you have anything else you'd like to...
om
A. The reason why I testified I wasn't sure about the rights, I don't know the agreement between Getty
and the photographer, whether they... what rights they did or did not acquire. They...

Q. It wasn't about us.

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. Got it.

so
Mr. Weitzman: You know what, Your Honor? I have some other questions I'm not going to ask him.
I'm going to ask no further questions at this time.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Are you going to have any redirect?

ck
Mr. Voth: Yes, Your Honor, if I would just be given five minutes to get organized and I'll be done very
shortly.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: And could we do that before the lunch hour?


ae
Female: Yes.

Judge Holmes: Oh...


ich
Mr. Voth: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

Judge Holmes: Yeah. We'll be off the record.

(Recess)
mM

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. VOTH:

Mr. Voth: Hi again. All right. Mr. Weitzman brought up your agenda, which has been marked as
Exhibit 26- J. Now, obviously, since Michael Jackson's passing, you've done a variety of projects...

I'm sorry. There's a phone that just went off that threw me off. Strike that. I'll start again.
a

Judge Holmes: Okay.


Te

Mr. Voth: But Mr. Weitzman brought up Exhibit 26-J, your agenda, a lot of it working under the
assumption that this... you know, Michael would still be alive. Since his passing, you've obviously done
a variety of projects without Michael Jackson's personal services, correct?
w.

Mr. Branca: Correct.

Q. Cirque du Soleil, correct?


ww

A. Correct, used as Michael's music.


om
Q. I'm not asking you for what's been done. I'm solely asking you to confirm different projects.

A. Okay.

n.c
Q. So Cirque du Soleil, you've done two shows, correct?

A. Correct.

so
Q. You've done the film This Is It?

A. Correct.

ck
Q. You've even done a Neverland Museum, correct?

A. No, that's not correct.

lJa
Q. There was a... was there a museum as part of the Immortal show at the Mandalay Bay?

A. There was an attraction featuring some of Michael's furnishings and...


ae
Q. Okay. So there was...

A. ...memorabilia.
ich
Q. There was an attraction that featured some of his furnishings that obviously did not require his
approval.

A. We couldn't have gotten it.


mM

Q. Okay. You've also done Michael Jackson: The Experience, correct, since Michael Jackson's passing?

A. Correct.

Q. The same with a Bally slot machine?

A. Correct.
a

Q. All right. Let's look at what happened immediately after death.


Te

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 236-J?

Q. All right. So then negotiations with Bravado and AEG regarding different merchandise, whether it's
w.

tour or not, began in July of 2009, correct?

A. Correct.
ww

Q. And then eventually, a deal was reached, and it was approved by the probate court in August of
2009. Is that correct?
om
A. I don't recall when it was approved, but I believe we reached a deal in August of 2009.

Q. So August of 2009 is close enough?

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And with respect to the film This Is It, negotiations began around July of 2009. Is that
correct?

so
A. Correct.

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 248-J?

ck
Q. All right. And this references Michael Jackson footage as of July 27, 2009. Did I just read that
portion correctly?

lJa
A. Yeah. I mean, I don't see the signature page. I'm not sure what this is. But...

Q. No, I only asked you about the top part. ae


A. Okay.

Q. And then this... the agreement regarding the film This Is It was eventually approved, as you
testified, in August of 2009?
ich

A. Correct.

Q. All right. And you consider the film This Is It a cornerstone of Michael Jackson's rebranding,
correct?
mM

A. Correct.

Q. And this film was released approximately in October of 2009. Is that correct?

A. Correct.
a

Q. And so we talked about the different deals that you eventually entered into, such as Cirque du Soleil,
YuGo Soft, Bally, even Pepsi.
Te

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 245-J?

Q. So this is an agreement with Cirque du Soleil, and I'm just going to read the second paragraph.
w.

"Whereas Michael Jackson became during his life and, after his death, continues to be one of the most
recognized and accomplished musical performers of modern times, and his name and likeness have
significant commercial and publicity value in our repository of enormous good will .. ." Did I read that
statement correctly?
ww

A. Correct.
om
Q. Now, yesterday we talked about how you as the executor of the estate seek to present Michael
Jackson, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. You use Facebook to attract the younger fans, correct?

A. We use Facebook, yeah.

so
Q. Okay. And part of it is to also attract younger fans? Is that fair to say?

A. In part of it... in part.

ck
Q. In part? Okay. And when we talked about the film This Is It, you mentioned that even your kids...
and you saw a lot of kids saw it, correct?

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. Even your own kids were excited about it, and they were talking about Michael Jackson instead of
Star Wars. Is that correct?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. Let's just briefly recap some aspects of the rehearsal footage. So Mr. Weitzman mentioned this term
ich
of art. It's some type of reel...

Mr. Weitzman: Sizzle reel.

Mr. Voth: ...sizzle reel. Thank you, Mr. Weitzman. All right. So you invited studio executives to take a
mM

look at the footage, correct?

Mr. Branca: Correct.

Q. And you only had about five minutes of footage to show them, correct?

A. Approximately, correct.
a

Q. Okay. And studios were very interested in creating the film if they could properly exploit this
Te

footage, correct?

A. Correct.
w.

Q. All right. Mr. Weitzman brought up the AEG and the copyrights. And if I recall, you testified you
didn't really believe that AEG would have been so bold to put out footage of Michael Jackson
without your consent, correct?
ww

A. I don't know if I testified that, but this is... was a win-win proposition in...
om
Q. I'm not asking you about whether it was a win-win or not. If you don't recall, I can refresh your
memory. It's also part of your summons interview.

A. Okay.

n.c
Q. So it's... if you look at Page 77 of Mr. Branca's summons interview. If you could just refresh
your memory by looking at Page 77, Lines 14 through 15, and let me know when you're done.

A. I see that.

so
Q. Okay. So the question was you didn't believe that AEG would have been so bold to put footage of
Michael Jackson without your consent, correct?

ck
A. Correct. It would not have maximized the commercial value.

Q. And in fact, you would have sued AEG if they tried to do the film based on Michael Jackson's
rehearsal footage without your consent, correct?

lJa
A. I'm not sure if we would have done that.

Q. Let's look at Page 77 of your summons interview, lines 23 and 24. Let me know when you're
done reading those lines.
ae
A. I see the language.
ich
Q. Okay. So given that your memory has been refreshed, you would have sued AEG if they tried to do
the film based on Michael Jackson's rehearsal footage without your consent, correct?

A. It's a hypothetical. If we could have afforded a lawsuit and needed to threat... we did threaten a
lawsuit. That's absolutely true, but we negotiated a settlement.
mM

Q. Okay. And in your summons interview, you stated, "But if they tried to put it out"... and that's
AEG... "we'd have sued." Did I read that correctly?

A. Yes, you did.

Q. All right. Let's just briefly talk about your involvement as Michael Jackson's attorney/manager.
a

Now, you were not involved as Michael Jackson's manager between 2006 and 2009 with the exception
of when you came back approximately eight days before Michael's death. Is that correct?
Te

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, you had stopped talking to Michael Jackson two to three years before 2006. Is that
w.

correct?

A. Correct.
ww

Q. Mr. Weitzman brought up the Heal the World statement and how the estate seeks to protect
intellectual property. And it's my understanding that your testimony is that by doing so, it's not
om
necessarily that the estate derived revenue from seeking to protect certain aspects of the intellectual
property. Is that correct?

A. That is not the only reason. Correct.

n.c
Q. Okay. But by protecting... by seeking to protect the intellectual property of Michael Jackson, it does
protect the Michael Jackson brand. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

so
Q. All right. Mr. Weitzman brought up the 60 million Sony advanced for the film This Is It. Is it fair to
say that the estate did not get the 60 million, per se, but the money from advance covered a liability of
the estate?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. Let's just briefly talk about the Michael Jackson Cirque residence show, Michael Jackson: ONE.

lJa
Michael Jackson, according to Cirque, is the main character of Michael Jackson: ONE. Is that correct?
According to Cirque du Soleil?

A. Well, I... in their summary here, they cast it that way. Yeah.
ae
Q. Their summary here. What summary are you referring to?

A. The one that you showed me yesterday.


ich

Q. Okay. I don't believe I showed you that...

A. I believe you showed me yesterday. I could be wrong.


mM

Q. ...yeah, no.

Mr. Voth: Mr. Camp, please...

Mr. Branca: The one I... excuse me. Maybe the one... it was the one you showed me at my deposition.
I can't remember.
a

Q. Please pull up Exhibit 569-J, Page 3 of the tableaux, which reads, in part, a living Michael... "Main
character, Michael Jackson, a living presence of the show through video... whispers, laughter, urging,
Te

spoken and projective narrative, screaming silhouettes, ??, et cetera. Michael's spirit is guiding the
performers and the audience on a journey ?? with the release from the grip of Mephisto which leads
everyone to reconnect with Michael's spirit and his childlike part. "Michael is also represented through
certain of his visual iconography, his iconic glove, hat, shoes, and glasses, which are transformed into
w.

talents meant to represent certain qualities possessed by Michael. He is the primary protagonist ??. But
through his music, lyrics, and words, he is also our narrative." Did I read that paragraph correctly?

A. Correct.
ww

Q. All right.
om
Mr. Voth: No further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Okay. I'm going to have... oh, a pointed recross?

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: Well... keep that up there, will you? The MJ: ONE.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEITZMAN:

so
Q. So Mr. Branca, what is this tableaux and the descriptions of main character in your understanding?

A. It was an artistic summary of the show... the sense of the show, the fact that we licensed Michael's
music, his video on a spoken voice to the show.

ck
Q. And is it fair to say there is no Michael character as one of the main characters in the show?

A. Michael appears once in Man in the Mirror in holographic form. You do hear his voice, and you see

lJa
his videos.

Q. Okay. But there's no character. There are characters in this show, correct?
ae
A. Correct.

Q. How many?
ich
A. Four.

Q. None of them look like Michael Jackson or act or move like Michael Jackson, do they?

A. None of them look like Michael Jackson, no.


mM

Q. Okay. In the Heal the World case, we got an... we... the state got an injunction, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And in the...
a

Mr. Weitzman: Thanks, Josh.


Te

Q. In the transcript that you were showed about suing AEG, that deposition taken... was taken in 2012.
You accept that?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. Back in 2009, if we couldn't make a deal with AEG, would we have sued them, in your opinion?

A. It was almost eight years ago. Perhaps.


ww

Q. Could we afford to have sued them, we being the estate?


om
A. It would have been difficult to take on AEG...

Q. I have nothing further.

n.c
A. ...at that point in time.

Judge Holmes: I have a number of questions for you that are sort of seguing into Mr. Anson's territory.
I'll ask those after lunch, which will be short today. We'll resume in 45 minutes.

so
Court Clerk: All rise.

(Recess)

ck
Court Clerk: The court is in session.

Judge Holmes: Good afternoon. Please be seated. How are we doing?

lJa
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY JUDGE HOLMES:

Q. All right. Just random questions for you, Mr. Branca. In Exhibit 703-R... this was the summons
ae
interview... there was this cryptic thing on Page 23 where Mr. DiLeo said to you, "He wants the good
Branca, whatever that meant. I know there's a smiling Branca." What is the good Branca?

A. Can I read that again?


ich

Q. Oh, sure.

Mr. Branca. What line was that?


mM

Judge Holmes: About 23.

A. Okay.

Q. And the follow-up question is what's the good Michael on the next line.

A. Okay.
a

Q. Yeah.
Te

A. So can you repeat that question, Your Honor? I want to get this right.

Q. What is the... what do you mean by the good Branca and the good Michael? You... I mean, you had
w.

to have a somewhat tempestuous relationship, clearly.

A. Yeah. You know, it was like two brothers, let's say. And there was a time when Michael sort of
wanted people to do what he said, and he wanted to hear what he wanted to hear. So if one told him
ww

perhaps something that he didn't want to hear, that might not be the good Branca. That might be the
Branca who's not doing what he wants him to do, as opposed to if you give a client advice, they can
om
agree with it or disagree with it, and then they get to make the decision. So for me, the good Michael
was the Michael who would listen and not say if I don't hear what I want to hear I'm going to ask
somebody else. In the '80s, I was a good Branca; he was a good Michael.

n.c
Q. I mean, it's different being a lawyer for a celebrity client than it would be for a giant corporate client
back east, obviously. And yet you have expressed admiration in these transcripts for Mr. Jackson's
ability, even at a relatively young age in his 20s, to not quite make his own investment decisions, but
figure out who would advise him. Was that consistently the case for your relationship? Or did that
change at times?

so
A. I think... I mean, I have my theories on this, you know. There's a price of fame. And when you have
that much of fame... I think Michael became perhaps the most famous person in the world at one point
where everybody was wanting to talk to him and see him... I think it's hard to handle. I think Michael

ck
had outstanding instincts in the '80s and into the '90s, but I think the allegations really hurt him, really
affected him. I... he was innocent, in my opinion and his opinion. And the media, when the media
turned on him, that was also very difficult for him. So it might have clouded his judgment a bit.

lJa
Q. Did it affect the way that you would present business opportunities to him?

A. No. We would always... and he had different managers. I was more often than not the lawyer, except
during certain periods. And the manager was usually the person that was, you know, on the front lines
ae
fielding offers and bring them to me to review. I would always bring Michael any realistic offer.

Q. And how did he evaluate it, let's say, in the second period you were representing him, not the last
week and a half or so? But what was that second period again?
ich

A. Well, there's probably three periods, so most likely the...

Q. Yes.
mM

A. ...paleontology, or whatever. But he would always... he would evaluate things based on, obviously,
his own tastes as an artist because, at the end of the day, he's an artist. And then when it came to the
business opportunities, he would to a... he would rely on his advisors.

Q. Were you one of his advisors when you were representing him?

A. Yes.
a

Q: In that period, would you... I don't know. Do you have corporate clients? Or are all your clients
Te

individuals?

A. No. I do represent and have represented corporate clients in the music business.
w.

Q. Would you approach different if you were dealing with a suit, I think they're called, versus a
celebrity?

A. Yeah. It's a little different.


ww

Q. And specifically with regard to Mr. Jackson, how would your approach differ in presenting business
om
opportunities to a corporate officer versus someone like Mr. Jackson?

A. Well, I think, you know, a corporate officer usually has a business development staff and a team of
advisors that might advise them on the strategy of the company, accountants to analyze projections,

n.c
return on investment, and whatnot. So with a corporate client, what you... what I might do is try to
advise them on trends in the business, competitive landscape. It's much more of a financial or business
analysis. They're not going to ask me, for example, is it a good look for a corporation that's
competing... you know, how to brand themselves. They have their own branding, whereas with an
artist, the artist is the business. So there's always an element of branding, marketing, how does a

so
particular decision affect how they're perceived. It's not always based on ROI.

Q. And was that true with your presentation of opportunities to Mr. Jackson?

ck
A. My practice was to present all opportunities to him and then to have a discussion, which was usually
with him and his manager or his accountant, depending on the opportunity.

Q. On Page 105 of Exhibit 703-R, there's a statement at Line 19 or so. Tell me when you're there.

lJa
A. Which line?

Q. 105, Line 19.

A. Okay. Page 10...


ae
Q. "Since his death"... oops, tell me when you're there.
ich

A. Page 102 did you...

Q. 105.
mM

A. 105. Okay.

Q. Line 19. "Since his death, the vast amount of income earned has not come from his name and
likeness. It's come from creating new things like the This Is It movie or, you know, different things like
that." What is your understanding of name and likeness when you were giving that answer?

A. Well, in my experience, name and likeness follows the use of the music. For example, a radio
a

announcer or a record company does not need a name and likeness license to announce that it's a
Michael Jackson recording. And Mr. Roessler testified... and I agree with him... under the California
Te

Civil Code, you don't need a right of publicity or name and likeness license to create a movie or a show.
Those rights tend to follow the use of the recordings. Now, to just go a little further in terms of this
statement, when you're licensing the name or likeness alone without the music, to me, that is name and
likeness.
w.

Q. So when you were thinking of name and likeness in this interview, you were thinking of what we
have heard as merchandising opportunities or the slot machines, something like that?
ww

A. Not necessarily slot machines, but we could talk about that. I'm thinking of a t-shirt that has
Michael's photo on it. There's a... we licensed a Christmas ornament that had Michael's picture on it.
om
There have been times in the '80s when we licensed notebook supplies... things that have Michael's
picture or name on it, but not music.

Q. And is that... when you were helping the estate prepare the tax return that's an issue in this case, was

n.c
that your understanding as well when you reported a value for name and likeness?

A. Yes. When we reported the value for name and likeness, I relied on counsel... our tax counsel who
advised us that we were required to report the value that we reported based on the IRS guidelines. I
would say, in fact, in our settlement discussions with the government...

so
Q. Don't tell me about the settlement discussions.

A. Okay.

ck
Q. But do tell me about how the tax return.

Judge Holmes: By the way, are you relying on professional... the professional advise defense as a

lJa
defends to the penalties here? Somebody?

Mr. Camp: I think it's implicit in its... yes, Your Honor.


ae
Judge Holmes: Yeah. Okay.

Q. Keep answering about...


ich
A. Yeah. So based on...

Q. ...what you were advised.

A. ...advice from counsel.


mM

Q. Okay. Who were your counsel?

A. It was Paul Hoffman, Jaryll Cohen, Abe Salkin.

Q. Oh. So ??. All right. Let's do this a little bit later. Now, you described in response to Mr. Weitzman's
questions about Cirque du Soleil that there was a good deal of effort that you put into it. When you said
a

that you were putting into it, do you mean John Branca or other people hired or associated with the
estate?
Te

A. Me.

Q. Oh. Were you compensated for these personal services, or were they part of your executor duties?
w.

A. The court... the probate court appointed us to be the managers of the estate. In a normal estate, the
executors maybe review the investment portfolio and talk to the investment advisors. In this case, there
was a business to run involving music. So we petitioned the court. We talked about managers did in the
ww

music business. And the court appointed us to be managers, and that's how we were compensated.
om
Q. Imagine that Mr. Jackson had lived and you were able to persuade him to do the same sort of Cirque
du Soleil show. Who would have performed those services that you described to Mr. Weitzman as
having been performed by you if Mr. Jackson were still alive?

n.c
A. It would have been a combination of Frank DiLeo and myself.

Q. Okay. Now, I want to be clear on the biggest money-makers for the estate since Mr. Jackson's death.
Clearly, Cirque du Soleil has produced a good income for the estate, correct?

so
A. Correct.

Q. Both those shows. The This Is It movie is one that has done very well?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. The albums?

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. Okay. The Sony/ATV deal, as it turned out...


ae
A. Correct.

Q. ...was good, right? Has merchandising produced, say, more than $10 million for the estate?
ich
A. If you include money from the slot machine deal and the Pachinko game, in the...

Q. Wait, a Pachinko game? Like the Japanese player?

A. Correct.
mM

Q. Very briefly, how does that work? Is that like the description in the slot machine we heard where
there's an integration of music and dance and video?

A. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

Q. Okay.
a

A. The way this... it's very similar to the slot machine. The slot machine company did not want to do a
Te

slot machine if they did not give them music. So if we had just licensed name and likeness, we would
have had no... same with Pachinko. So in... if you factor in those two deals and allocate a portion of
that income, then during the seven and a half years since Michael passed away, my guess is there would
be in excess of $10 million of name and likeness income.
w.

Q. Okay. Has the Broadway show produced any income, or do you anticipate that it will?

A. We don't have a Broadway show. We are in development, which we haven't announced yet, of a
ww

Broadway show. But...


om
Q. Would that be what I have learned is called a juke box show like Mama Mia used the songs, but
somebody else writes the book?

A. That... yeah. A juke box musical would be sort of like the Motown Musical, or the Lieber Stoller

n.c
Musical. The album musical was a fictional story.

Q. Right.

A. So our... we hired the director, Des McAnuff, who directed Jersey Boys. So our idea is going to be

so
based on that kind of model.

Q. Okay. I have a few more questions about that then. Is... I read accounts of a biopic with one of those
Irish actors playing Michael Jackson, I think it was. Is that an estate project, or is that something

ck
completely different?

A. No. They did that without our permission.

lJa
Q. And that's still going forward apparently, is it?

A. They actually telecast one of the episodes in London with Ralph Fiennes, I think, or Joseph Fiennes.
And they had the right to do it because... as under the Civil Code. The response was negative, and they
ae
did not continue. They had a Caucasian actor playing Michael Jackson.

Q. Was it really negative it got into the main stream media ?? ? Have there been any other deals or
products or projects that have produced over $10 million for the estate that I have missed in this list?
ich

A. Well, Mijac Music, the use of Michael's songs, and the...

Q. And that's...
mM

A. ...sales of his records and streaming.

Q. And that's ongoing.

A. Ongoing.

Q. That hasn't been sold at some point.


a

A. Correct.
Te

Q. Now Mijac, obviously, existed... it was property of the estate at the time of death, right?

A. And still is.


w.

Q. The Broadway show we heard from Mr. Nederlander was under an option. Is that correct? You
described it as an option?
ww

A. Correct. And that was going to be based on a song that Michael did not own.
om
Q. Heard that. Is that deal dead, or is that...

A. That's dead.

n.c
Q. That deal is dead. And the Broadway show that you're describing would be a different kind of deal.
Had you discussed this with Michael Jackson at the time of his death?

A. No.

so
Q. And it certainly wasn't in existence at the time of his death.

A. No.

ck
Q. I take it the slot machine and the Pachinko deal was also posthumous?

A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Is that correct? What... had that been discussed by anybody before his death?

A. No. ae
Q. Sony/ATV was part of the estate, so that was... dealing with that was foreseeable at least. The
albums... he had released albums, it seems, every couple of years... some recompilations, some new
material. But was that part of the plan all along?
ich
A. Well, in the 30 years of his solo recording career, he had released six studio albums.

Q. What do you mean by studio albums?

A. A new album as opposed to putting together greatest hits.


mM

Q. Are greatest hits-type albums also approved by the artist if he's living?

A. Generally speaking. It depends on the contract.

Q. Were Michael Jackson's?


a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. Okay. Was he involved in the selection, or at least approving of those albums?

A. There really only was one or maybe two greatest hits albums. The so-called HIStory album was a
two-CD set. One CD was a new album, and the other CD was a greatest hits disc.
w.

Q. Turning to the This Is It movie, now you have already described that, but the contracts for that were
all posthumous, correct?
ww

A. Correct.
om
Q. And the same with Cirque du Soleil?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. When did you begin negotiations with Guy Laliberte?

A. I believe it was in October or November of 2009.

Q. Now, I need to go through each of these to talk about the rights that were involved with them.

so
Mijac... we talked about the rights. Those are publisher's rights, right?

A. Yes.

ck
Q. The... or is it... are there any other rights in the Mijac bin...

A. No.

lJa
Q. ...name and likeness or performance rights?

A. Mijac owns the copyrights, the... so the songs that Michael wrote, and collects publishing royalties
which consist of mechanicals, performance, and synch income. They have never... Mijac has never
ae
collected record royalties or any other type of royalty.

Q. And similarly for ATV... it's very important to be precise here...


ich
A. ...Sony/ATV itself has publishing rights.

A. Sony/ATV is a publishing company.

Q. But the estate's interest in Sony/ATV... I'm sorry... the trust's interest was an interest in an operating
mM

business, correct?

A. Correct. And Mijac was separate from Sony/ATV.

Q. Yeah. They're different trust ownership structures. I do understand that. How would you describe the
business that Sony/ATV is in? It's not simply a copyright trust like some of the businesses that are
mentioned in the expert witness reports.
a

A. No. Sony/ATV is an operating company. At one time, there were a number of major publishing
Te

companies. They have dwindled. Sony/ATV is one of the three major music publishers, and they're an
operating company with numerous employees and offices throughout the world. It's not a catalog.

Q. Help me understand this business. The classic garage band takes off, has talent, and somebody in a
w.

suit visits them in a nightclub and signs them to the big deal. What is he signing them to?

A. Well, usually they don't have a suit on. Otherwise, they're not going to get the deal.
ww

Q. Fair enough.
om
A. It... there's different forms of deals. There's ownership. There's co-publishing where they co-own the
copyright. Orr there's administration where the publisher... it's sort of a rent-an- operation. What the
publisher is tasked to do... the garage band in the U.S. could conceivably collect their own income, but
they can't throughout the world. They're not in a position to collect money earned in England, in

n.c
Germany, and France. And so the publisher collects the income for that garage band.

Q. That they are owed as a result of copyright laws in the songs they are writing, correct?

A. Yes. And it could be mechanical income from the sale of records, public performance income from

so
licenses to perform that music in gyms and bars and...

Q. So does the publishing company deal with the BMIs and ASCAPs of the world on behalf of the
artist?

ck
A. Yes. And what happens is the artist usually signs with BMI or ASCAP as a writer to collect therein.
And if they have a publisher, then the publisher collects the publisher's share. But it is certainly
possible for the writer, if they own their own copyright, to make the deal with BMI and not through a

lJa
publisher.

Q. Okay. Imagine our imaginary band. They sign a contract with somebody who sees them to produce
a record. What is involved in that? There's a record company?

A. Yes.
ae
Q. Or... okay.
ich

A. And the record company is different than the publishing company. The record company usually
funds the making of the album. They then fund the manufacture of the album in the old days when
there were records, and there's still some manufacturing. They handle the marketing, the distribution,
the advertising, getting the songs played on radio. So they own the recordings separate from the songs
mM

that are being recorded.

Q. And that's the... the equivalent in the Jackson case would be the master recordings that...

A. Yes.

Q. I know it's been settled, but I'm trying to understand. So the record company has the master
a

recordings, typically, and pays a share or a fee or something to the artist.


Te

A. Correct.

Q. What is the relationship, if any, between the record company and the publisher?
w.

A. Publisher is a separate company. Sometimes it's within the corporate umbrella that...

Q. As in the case of Sony, right?


ww

A. Yeah. You have Sony Music Records, which is... and you have Sony/ATV, the joint venture. But it's
certainly possible that the songwriter could sign with Warner's Publishing Company or EM... any other
om
publishing company and not under the same umbrella as the record company.

Q. So we have Mijac, which uses Warner- Chappell as its publishing company. We have Sony/ATV,
which has all these songs that Michael Jackson owned at one point and then co-owned within that

n.c
structure...

A. Right.

Q. ...where Sony/ATV is the publisher. But I... there were also references in the expert witness reports

so
that you on behalf of the estate had negotiated a record deal with Sony, I think it was, wasn't it? That
was a different part of Sony. That was Sony Records or something?

A. Yes. And they're different staffs, different profit centers, and different functions. The chairman of

ck
Sony Records has nothing to do with Sony/ATV. Sony/ATV could have a banner year and everybody at
Sony/ATV get bonuses. It will not affect Sony Records. It's a different staff.

Q. And is it the case that publishers are just enforcers of legal rights? Is that... they do?

lJa
A. They do that, but they also have staffs that will pitch songs. So if you're Sony/ATV or Warner-
Chappell and you have songs, you may go to a movie director or a music supervisor or an advertising
agency and say for your commercial, we think you should use the following song. So for example, if
ae
you hear a Beatles song on the radio, it may have been pitched by Sony/ATV. One other distinction.
There are songwriters who are not recording artists. Diane Warren is an example. Their entire
livelihood is for writing songs, never from recording them. They want a publisher that really does a
good job.
ich

Q. I'm thinking Broadway and country and western music.

A. Yes. Different staff down in Nashville.


mM

Q. But the same industry structure, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. So the albums that we're talking about, that would be your Sony Music deal?

A. Yes.
a

Q. I know it has consequences for the publishing and the...


Te

A. And the actual label is called Epic Records because under the Sony Records banner there's
Columbia, Epic, RCA, a number of different labels.
w.

Q. Okay. I forgot to finish up Sony/ATV. The rights involved in Sony/ATV then are the... similar to
Mijac in that the asset there is the copyright.

A. Yes.
ww

Q. You're equating the copyright.


om
A. The difference is Mijac is a catalog without staff and Sony/ATV is a major. And we actually moved
the administration rights from Warner- Chappell to Sony/ATV a couple years ago. But for the previous
29 to 30 years, they had been administered by Warner-Chappell.

n.c
Q. In the case of the albums that you were doing, that involved performance rights then, right?

A. The albums were recording rights.

so
Q. And when you negotiated a contract on behalf of the estate, what you were doing was telling them
they could reproduce the master recordings, right?

A. Correct. And in Michael's case, we had gotten the ownership of his recordings, the copyright for him

ck
back in '84 or '85. And we give Sony Music the right to distribute the masters and collect the income
for a period of time. So in 2009, we knew that deal was going to run out in... so we were able to
negotiate a new deal in 2010.

lJa
Q. In those contracts, did you mention the right of publicity or trademarks or name and likeness of Mr.
Jackson?

A. Those contracts say that the record company have the right to use the artist's name and likeness in
ae
connection with marketing, promoting, advertising, and exploiting the records.

Q. And only in connection with exploiting the records, correct?


ich
A. Modern recording contracts also give the record company the right to use the artist's name and
likeness for institutional advertising and also in some cases to develop websites.

Q. Is there an allocation in the contract between the income that will come to the estate through the
recordings and the rights in the recordings versus the name and likeness and, of course, in promoting
mM

the recordings, institutional advertising, and use of website design, et cetera?

A. No. The only compensation that's paid is for use of the master recordings.

Q. All right. In reporting on the... I take it you also helped prepare the income tax returns of this
profitable estate?
a

A. Well, I didn't personally prepare them...


Te

Q. Okay.

A. ...but I did select...


w.

Q. Do you oversee them or something?

A. Excuse me?
ww

Q. Do you sign on behalf of the estate?


om
A. Yes.

Q. Okay. In signing on behalf of the estate, do you make an allocation between the performance rights
income on these albums versus the name and likeness income from these albums?

n.c
A. I don't recall... I'm not sure what you mean by...

Q. It might all be reported as royalties.

so
A. They're all reported as royalties.

Q. On the estate tax return, did you report any income from albums or perspective income from
albums?

ck
A. I believe we valued the master recordings, yes.

Q. But you allocated the prospective value of future albums to the master recordings rather than to

lJa
name and likeness.

A. Correct. ae
Q. Turning to This Is It the movie, what rights were involved in that negotiation with Paramount, was
it?

A. Sony.
ich

Q. Sony. That's right. I thought you were somewhere. Here we go. In fact, Exhibit 708-P, which
includes the term sheet for that deal... is this representive of term sheets for when a civilian hears that
about your industry? You know, it's only a couple pages long.
mM

A. No. The... you know, normally they're a little longer than that. We needed something to present to
the Court.

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. What document are we referring to?

Judge Holmes: Oh, the term sheet. This is...


a

Mr. Weitzman: Is that the Paramount...


Te

Judge Holmes: ...Exhibit 708-P. Yes.

Mr. Weitzman: ...the Paramount term sheet?


w.

Judge Holmes: Yes.

Mr. Branca: We actually did not do a deal with Paramount. I think that was their offer sheet.
ww

Judge Holmes: Oh, okay. Okay. It has some industry terms here on Page 2 of this term sheet, which
may or may not also end up in 595-R.
om
Towards the bottom there, Mr. Rosefsky, if you can enlarge it. There you go.

Q. That last paragraph. See where it says, "Such clearance shall include but not be limited to the
unrestricted use of the likenesses of any performer or individual." What does that... is that standard

n.c
term of the industry that you understand?

A. Yeah. I mean...

Q. What does it mean?

so
A. What it means is that AEG, in hiring the musicians for the tour, got the right to record their
performances and include them in the footage that was eventually used.

ck
Q. To your understanding, is the use of the word likeness there a right of publicity, or something else?

A. I think the value lies in the recording. But could they use a photo of somebody in an ad? Yeah, that
would... that's possible. But I think I testified on the first day that if you had put out a movie consisting

lJa
of still photos, you wouldn't have done very well. What you needed was the recording and the music,
the singing, the dancing.

Q. I was going to write to that. For the This Is It movie, for the deal that you actually negotiated on
ae
behalf of the estate, did you include use of the master recordings of Mr. Jackson?

A. The This Is It footage incorporated the recording of the rehearsals. The problem was that the audio
was not good because, basically, instead of having eight cameramen, it all miked out and blocked out of
ich
how it would be shot, you just had somebody walking around with a camera. And there were gaps. So
what we ended up doing was licensing the recordings from Sony that were then used to enhance the
audio to make it commercial quality.

Q. You also included in that, I take it, some compensation to Mijac for the use of Mr. Jackson's...
mM

A. Correct.

Q. ...songs as a writer, correct?

A. Mijac and other copyright owners of the songs.


a

Q. Like that Mr. Temperton that you were telling us about yesterday.
Te

A. Yes.

Q. And did you include name and likeness in that license?


w.

A. No.

Q. Turning to Cirque du Soleil finally, did you license master recordings that the estate owned?
ww

A. Yes.
om
Q. Did you license name and likeness of Mr. Jackson?

A. In the ONE show in Las Vegas, no. In the traveling show, as I testified, I was trying to get a better
deal than the Beatles. So I told them they had to give us an extra royalty for name and likeness, which

n.c
they certainly did at the beginning of the show... tour.

Q. And finally, did you allow use of Mr. Jackson's rights as a composer for the songs that were used...

A. Yes. They paid for the use of the copyrights both to Mr. Jackson and the other copyright owners.

so
Q. Did you include in the estate's income... I'm sorry... the estate's tax return that's at issue here any
income from Cirque du Soleil that you anticipated getting when you filled out that return?

ck
A. I don't recall.

Q. In filling out the estate's... I'm sorry... the estate's return that's at issue in this case, the estate tax
return, did you include any income that you anticipated receiving from merchandising deals like the

lJa
one we heard about from Bravado?

A. I... as I recall, we included the historical income, and on advice of counsel, we prepared the return in
terms of what they advised me were the IRS guidelines.

Q. Same question for the This Is It movie.


ae
A. I know we valued the projected income stream from the masters and from Mijac music royalties.
ich
Whether we specifically took into account This Is It, I don't recall.

Q. And the same question for the hope of a Broadway show, either the Nederlander opportunity or the
juke box musical that may or may not occur now seven years after...
mM

A. No, not at all. I mean, here we are seven and a half years later, and there's no Broadway show.

Q. Part of my job, obviously, is to figure out what the value of the estate was as of the date of Mr.
Jackson's death and not what it became. So I have to ask you this question. Do you attribute the evident
success and the considerable income that's produced on the estate to your efforts?

A. I think that I and the team contributed. I think that Michael's master recordings and musical
a

copyrights were extremely valuable. I don't think we could have done the job we did... for example,
Tommy James and the Shondelles, or Tone Luc or...
Te

Q. Who are they?

A. They had a song called Hanky Panky and Mony Mony. My point only is that...
w.

Q. Oh, so you got to work with better raw material...

A. The best raw material. There certainly is not a lot of Michael Jackson's.
ww

Q. Now, one of the things we heard from Mr. Dr. Tohme is that he does say... he did testify that he had
om
a lot of these ideas and was working with Mr. Jackson on them at the time of his death. Do you know
who Mr. Wishna was?

A. Yes. I met Mr. Wishna.

n.c
Q. Is... he's dead now, right?

A. Yes.

so
Q. Okay. Were you able to find any contract between Mr. Wishna and Michael Jackson, Mr. Tohme,
anybody?

A. There were no contracts with Mr. Wishna. There were no contracts with Mr. Tohme. I actually met

ck
with Mr. Wishna, who came in to pitch me on some crazy idea, and it didn't take... I want to be
respectful, but it didn't take long to realize he was not a person of substance. And I'm putting that
mildly.

lJa
Q. We also heard of Mr. Tohme, or in the various documents that he influenced in this case, that he was
actively seeking to use Mr. Jackson's name and likeness on deals involving hot toys, shoes, various
other things, power drinks. Were those contracts found after you became executor of the estate?
ae
A. They did not exist. I can only tell you my experience with Mr. Tohme led me to believe that I didn't
believe a word that came out of the man's mouth.

Q. Were you able to find any deals that he had negotiated on behalf of Mr. Jackson that were in effect
ich
as of the date of death?

A. The This Is It concert series, which was done with Randy Phillips, I believe Mr. Tohme had a hand
in.
mM

Q. Were there any other contracts at the time of Mr. Jackson's death that simply were in existence to
exploit his music, his name and likeness, anything that we haven't discussed here? I understand Mijac,
ATV, and those ongoing relationships.

A. You know, the Sony recording agreement, obviously, was in effect and the Mijac distribution. But
no, there were no name and likeness or other deals for plays, movies, or anything else.
a

Q. Yeah. The projecting...


Te

A. The projects.

Q. ...is one way to think of it. We have heard, I guess... I don't know if it's been through your testimony,
but it's been through Mr. Weitzman's questioning that there may be litigation involved with Mr. Tohme.
w.

Is there such litigation going on?

A. There is litigation.
ww

Q. And what is the nature of that litigation?


om
A. Mr. Tohme wanted to be compensated for This Is It and a number of other things that he laid claim
to. The... our position was his contract, which expired well before Michael passed away, clearly did not
call for that compensation. Mr. Tohme also arranged the loan on Neverland that came from Colony
Capital. And if I recall, he was trying to take 10 percent or more of the amount of the loan proceeds as a

n.c
finder's fee while, without disclosing to us, also representing Colony Capital.

Q. Which also agreed to give him 10 percent of the...

A. He's also asking for 10 percent of This Is It.

so
Q. California has different laws, I guess.

A. Yeah. I... if... on the subject of Mr. Tohme, if I could add...

ck
Q. Well, there's... what I'm getting at... I'll be ??. Does he have an interest in saying that he was
responsible for these projects?

lJa
A. Yes, he does. And...

Q. And what is that interest? ae


A. Because he's trying to claim commissions on things that he had nothing to do with. When I first met
with him, we asked if he had any money or assets of Mr. Jackson. He said no. Second meeting, he said
no. Third meeting we brought an ex-party order, and all of the sudden $5 million appear... materialized.
At the first... he also told me at the meeting that there was another will. So I told Mr. Tohme if there is a
ich
will, please turn it in to the probate court. Why are you telling me? Never materialized.

Q. Now, you mentioned during your testimony with Mr. Weitzman that you had sued by members of
the Jackson family for... over This Is It. What was the nature of that suit?
mM

A. They took the...

Q. Or what was the theory, by which I mean? Yeah.

A. They took the position that Michael Jackson would never have released the rehearsal footage if he
were alive. And they also did not want us to be in business with AEG. They had an animosity toward
AEG.
a

Q. What was the result of that lawsuit?


Te

A. After a trial in front of Superior Court Judge Beckloff, the Judge gave us the right to go forward
with This Is It and the settlement with AEG.
w.

Q. What was the... I understand the motivation, but what was the theory of the Jackson family that an
animist towards a corporation could justify upsetting a deal that was, you know, otherwise profit-
maximizing for the estate?
ww

A. I believe members of the family probably wanted to be appointed administrators of the estate.
om
Q. Oh, you had told me about that.

A. Yeah.

n.c
Q. You had told us about that as well. Have there been any other lawsuits by the family against you or
the estate?

A. No. The family brought... or Ms. Jackson brought a lawsuit against AEG, but there have been no
other lawsuits against us from the family.

so
Q. All right. Have there been lawsuits brought by the heirs of Mr. Jackson against the estate or you?

A. No.

ck
Q. Okay. Have you brought any lawsuits against the estate or the Jacksons?

A. Against the heirs, no.

lJa
Q. Against the family?

A. No.

Q. All right.
ae
Judge Holmes: Any follow-up questions, Mr. Weitzman?
ich

Mr. Weitzman: Two pretty quick.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEITZMAN:


mM

Q. Mr. Branca, do you get separate compensation from Cirque or from any of these projects other than
what is consistent with the Court's order allowing you and Mr. McClain to manage the assets of the
estate?

A. No, we do not.

Q. Okay. And if... I think I asked this before, but I just want to get it in the right perspective. If the AEG
a

deal had not been approved by the Court, would the estate, in your opinion, have been able to earn a
type of money they had been able to earn since that pictured success?
Te

A. No, I don't believe so. No.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't have anything further, Your Honor.


w.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Mr. Voth, do you have any follow-up questions?

Mr. Voth: Nothing further.


ww

Judge Holmes: Thank you very much, Mr. Branca...


om
Mr. Weitzman: I would like to move for the admission of Exhibits... I think it's 708 and 707... 707,
708.

n.c
Judge Holmes: 708 comes in. What's 707, Ms....

Mr. Weitzman: It's the AEG copyrights.

Court Clerk: The copyright.

so
Judge Holmes: Oh, I remember that now. You had an objection at the time, I thought, or at least a
hesitation, Mr. Voth. Do you care?

ck
Mr. Voth: That was...

Judge Holmes: He's shaking his head no. It's in as well, Mr. Weitzman.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Very good. Thank you, Mr. Branca.


ae
Mr. Branca: Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: You're free to step down. I believe we have Mr. Anson again.
ich
Mr. Voth: Can we just have a quick five- minute restroom break, Your Honor, and then...

Judge Holmes: So soon. We're off the record.

(Recess)
mM

February 24th 2017


a
Te

Judge Holmes: I'm not hearing anything.

Mr. Weitzman: John Branca.


w.

Judge Holmes: Ah. I forget. Did we dismiss him? No, they said they'd need him back. I'll remind him
he's still under oath. You're still under oath until we're finally done, Mr. Branca.
ww

Mr. Branca: Yes, I understand.


om
Judge Holmes: Go ahead.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WEITZMAN:

n.c
Q. Mr. Branca, you were here today when Mr. Anson testified?

A. Yes.

Q. And you heard him talk about reasonable foreseeability with respect to films and Cirque du Soleil

so
and other particular assets. And I know I asked you this before when you testified, but I just want to ask
you one more time. When Michael died, which was June 25th, 2009, until you became the executor...
actually, the special administrator; the executor was months later... did you or your co-executor or any
of the team of Michael Jackson discuss or consider a Cirque du Soleil...

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Go ahead, Mr. Voth. I see you.

Judge Holmes: You didn't even finish your question.

lJa
Mr. Voth: You didn't finish your question?

Q. ...a Cirque du Soleil play?

Mr. Branca: Absolutely not...


ae
Mr. Voth: Objection.
ich

Mr. Branca: No.

Mr. Voth: This has been asked and answered many times during this proceeding.
mM

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Q. Did you have any contact with anyone from Cirque du Soleil at or about the time... and by that, I
mean the day or so surrounding Michael's death?

A. No.
a

Mr. Voth: Objection. Asked...


Te

Mr. Weitzman: Did you have...

Judge Holmes: That particular one wasn't. But go ahead.


w.

Mr. Voth: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: Did you have any contact at or around the time when Michael died with Franco
Dragone?
ww

Mr. Branca: No, not until several months later.


om
Q. Okay. And did you have contact with Mr. Dragone at or about the same time you were having
conversations with Cirque du Soleil?

n.c
A. Yes. We were introduced at the... by the same person, Rene Angelil, who was friends with Guy
Laliberte and also Franco Dragone. So he made the call and said there might be an interest. That was, I
believe, in October. And the problem is Franco Dragone had no funding. He was a former employee of
Cirque du Soleil.

so
Q. So the Cirque show that only took place, in your opinion... and not as an expert, of course, but as
one of the co-executors of the estate of Michael Jackson... was the show that ended up happening
reasonably foreseeable at or about the time Michael Jackson died?

ck
Mr. Voth: Objection. Asked and answered, Your Honor.

Mr. Weitzman: That question has not been - -

lJa
Judge Holmes: No, it hasn't. He's right.

Mr. Voth: That one? ae


Judge Holmes: That particular phrasing hasn't been. But go ahead. Answer it.

Mr. Branca: No, it was absolutely...


ich
Judge Holmes: There we go.

Mr. Branca: ...not foreseeable in any way, shape, or form.

Q. And why do you say that, Mr. Branca?


mM

A. A show like... that show cost between 40 and $50 million to create. And it only happened once in
history. And with regard to the Beatles show, three of the Beatles were involved in the making of the
show. George Harrison happened to be a close personal friend of Guy. The thought on the moment that
Michael passed away, or even any time thereafter, that somebody would come and spend 40 to $50
million to create a show was not foreseeable.
a

Q. Okay. Now, you have heard the phrase "bundling synergies" talked about during the course of this
trial, correct?
Te

A. Correct.

Q. What is your understanding of what bundling or synergies means... or meant with respect to the
w.

testimony in this trial?

A. Well, my experience...
ww

Mr. Voth: Objection, Your Honor. It's not... it's only as someone that is not seeking testimony from
expert.
om
Judge Holmes: Sustained, but rephrase.

Mr. Weitzman: What's your understanding of the phrase "bundling" or "synergies" as they relate to the

n.c
assets of the estate of Michael Jackson?

A. It's the possibility of licensing right of... rights of publicity along with music.

Q. And what are your thoughts about the feasibility of... or maybe not... feasibility is the wrong word...

so
the practicality of bundling assets...

Mr. Voth: Objection.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: ...of the estate of Michael Jackson?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for an expert opinion, Your Honor.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Oh, you have sold rights that Michael Jackson's estate owns together, haven't you?

Mr. Branca: Correct. ae


Judge Holmes: Personal experience. Overruled.

Mr. Branca: In my experience, if you own the music, the recordings, and the copyrights as well as the
name and likeness, you do not get an extra penny for the name and likeness or the rights of publicity. If
ich
you hypothetically imagine that you own the music, the songs, and the recordings but somebody else
owns the rights of publicity... and let's say the word...

Mr. Weitzman: Like Mr. Anson's rational...


mM

A. Yeah.

Q. ...investor, for example.

A. Exactly. And if you were dealing with a licensing that wanted to do a project, if that person owning
the name and likeness, if for some reason the licensee wanted a right of publicity license, it would
mean that the person that owned the music would get less money. Now, under, if you can do a movie or
a

if you can do a play without licensing the right of publicity, you get back to the question what is the
value of the right of publicity if you don't have the music.
Te

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, I move to strike that last portion since he's...

Judge Holmes: Since he started talking about 30-...


w.

Mr. Voth: The laws, yeah.

Judge Holmes: ...California statute. That is granted. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.


ww

Mr. Weitzman: What would... why is that stricken if it factors into his opinion as the co-executor...
om
Judge Holmes: He was saying it as a general manner. But I understand that in his specific case that's
exactly the argument that he has. I do understand that, Mr. Weitzman. Next.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: So with respect to the bundling of rights of publicity and the masters or rights and
publicity of any other intellectual properties, do you think as a practical matter that benefits to the value
of the estate?

Mr. Branca: I'm sorry. Can you say that again?

so
Q. Sure. With respect to the bundling, the joining of right of publicity and whether the publishing or
recording or other assets of the estate, do you think that putting them together works to the benefit of
the estate?

ck
A. In our experience with the estate and, incidentally, as my experience with other clients, the value lies
in the music, the use of the recordings, and the use of the copyrights.

lJa
Q. And not in the rights of publicity.

A. Correct. ae
Q. Is the value of rights of publicity most prevalent when you deal with merchandising or
endorsements or something such as that?

A. Correct.
ich

Mr. Voth: If I may, Your Honor, as long as that calls for his personal experience, no objection.

Judge Holmes: In your personal experience, Mr. Branca.


mM

Mr. Branca: Correct.

Mr. Weitzman: All right. Could you put the art up for This Is It?
Let me just go to another area, and we'll find that.

Q. Mr. Branca, did you attend the memorial service?


a

A. Yes, I did.
Te

Q. The memorial service for Michael Jackson?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. Okay. And between the time Michael passed away and the time of the memorial service, there were
several meetings with Team Jackson, for lack of a better phrase, about how we were going to generate
any revenue, if that was possible, what we were going to sell, basically.
ww

A. Correct.
om
Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. It's late, but address the form.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. Were there any meetings between the time Michael died and the memorial about how the estate was
going to get some money to pay debts, service debts or living expenses for the children and Ms.
Jackson?

so
A. Yes. There were several meetings, phone calls, conferences.

Q. And were there any projects during that 10- day, 2-week period that we were working on

ck
immediately to get revenue other than selling assets?

A. I... by projects, I'm not sure if you might be referring to negotiations. But in projects, no, in terms of
shows or, you know... no.

lJa
Q. And then sometime around the time of the memorial, were there discussions regarding the footage
and seeing if that project was possible? ae
Mr. Voth: Objection...

Mr. Branca: Approximately.


ich
Mr. Voth: ...Your Honor. This has been asked and answered numerous times during this trial.

Judge Holmes: That one's sustained. Even I remember the answer to that one.

Mr. Weitzman: The memorial service, the estate did not produce or pay for it, correct?
mM

Mr. Branca: Correct. What... I think we may have ended up after the fact contributing to the cause. But
we did not arrange it, produce it or have any significant role in it.

Q. Well, do you know whether we contributed to cost or contributed to the City of Los Angeles for
security?
a

A. Yeah. And perhaps it was contributing for security.


Te

Q. Okay. And at that memorial, there was kind of a star-studded presentation of speakers and
performers. Did the estate help set any of that up?

A. No.
w.

Q. And as the co-executor of the estate of Michael Jackson, the co-manager of its assets, do you believe
the memorial service impacted Michael's branding or rebranding?
ww

A. Yes, I do. It was covered worldwide. I think the viewership was enormous. But I think most
compelling, as I recall, were the eulogies given by Michael's children... Paris, in particular... and Berry
om
Gordy. I think Reverend Sharpton also delivered quite a passionate eulogy.

Q. Was it reasonably foreseeable that AEG would create a memorial similar to what they ended up
creating?

n.c
A. No, not at all.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't have any further questions.

so
Male: Exhibit 567.

Q. Do you recognize that, Mr. Branca?

ck
A. Yes, of course.

Q. Okay. Hang on. Is there any name or likeness or trademark included in this ad?

lJa
A. Well, the ad tracks the film itself...

Mr. Voth: Objection in terms of if it calls for a legal conclusion. But if it's as to his personal knowledge
of trademarks...

Judge Holmes: Ah, yes.


ae
Mr. Voth: ...that have been registered, it's fine.
ich

Judge Holmes: According to your personal knowledge, Mr. Branca.

Mr. Branca: There's use here of copyright.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: And I'm sorry. You said... I didn't hear the question. So...

A. Oh, I'm sorry.

Q. Was there a question pending? Yeah, you're answering mine.

A. I was trying to...


a

Judge Holmes: He was answering yours but limited to his personal knowledge.
Te

Mr. Weitzman: Oh, got it. Got it. Yes, I heard something from the bench.

Q. So again, are there any trademarks on this advertisement?


w.

A. Well, at the very bottom in the small print, the dancing feet logo is actually a trademark of the estate
now. I'm not sure if it was at the time.
ww

Q. That's bottom left.


om
A. Correct.

Judge Holmes: And they're the little ones like Columbia Pictures, I'm noticing... NBA

n.c
Mr. Branca: I assumed he was referring to a statement.

Judge Holmes: I'll assume so, too.

Mr. Weitzman: Right.

so
Q. And last and not least, do you think these... the dancing feet trademarks contribute at all to the
success of the film?

ck
Mr. Voth: Calls for speculation.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Just his opinion as a co-executor and the business person that helped put this together
at the estate of Michael Jackson.

Judge Holmes: It's still speculation. People want to see the movie not because of the feet on a poster.

Mr. Branca: I think you're right, Your Honor.


ae
Judge Holmes: I understand, yeah.
ich

Mr. Branca: As you always are.

Mr. Weitzman: I have nothing further.


mM

Judge Holmes: All right. Cross?

Mr. Voth: Can Respondent just be given three minutes, Your Honor. I just need to consult with the
team just three minutes, and I'll be...

Judge Holmes: We'll go off the record.


a

Mr. Voth: ...extremely brief.


Te

Judge Holmes: Consult with the team. Don't leave the room.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VOTH:


w.

Mr. Voth: Good afternoon again. You knew Mr. Jackson well, correct?

Mr. Branca: I'm not sure what you mean by that.


ww

Q. You worked with Michael Jackson off and on for at least 26 years.
om
A. Correct.

Q. You can recognize his signature, correct?

n.c
A. Recognize his...

Mr. Weitzman: I think this is actually beyond the scope, Your Honor, if I...

so
Judge Holmes: It is unless there's some...

Mr. Voth: Permission to lay a foundation.

ck
Judge Holmes: Oh, well, see where he's going with this. Okay.

Mr. Voth: Are you...

lJa
Judge Holmes: Do you recognize his signature? Just yes...

Mr. Branca: I might be able to. I'm not a handwriting expert. So I couldn't tell a good forgery.
ae
Mr. Voth: Are you familiar with his handwriting?

Mr. Branca: His handwriting?


ich
Q. Yeah, given your... the 20-something years that you worked with him, are you familiar with his
handwriting?

A. I've seen it. It's an odd question. We didn't write notes to each other that often.
mM

Q. So you are familiar with his handwriting.

A. I've seen his handwriting.

Q. Okay. So you've seen it. Therefore, you're familiar with his handwriting, correct?

A. Okay. Sure.
a

Mr. Weitzman: Pardon me. You don't need to let him put words in your mouth. I'm going to object to
Te

beyond the scope.

Judge Holmes: Well, we'll see what's happening here. But let's...
w.

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I approach to have the Clerk...

Judge Holmes: Oh, go right ahead.


ww

The Clerk: Exhibit 719-R is marked for identification.


om
Mr. Voth: All right. So we've been informed that this has been written by Michael Jackson, and it talks
about Cirque du Soleil. So that's where I'm coming within the scope of Mr. Weitzman's examination.
Please take a moment to look at this document and tell me whether you recognize Michael Jackson's
handwriting.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: First of all, Your Honor, I'm going to object because, A, it's beyond the scope whether
somebody has written to Cirque du Soleil or not. And B, there's no authenticity here. I have no idea
what this says.

so
Judge Holmes: Not yet. Not yet. Let's see. He's still laying a foundation brick by brick.

Mr. Weitzman: Well, his intentions are to lay the foundation of this copy of something that has nothing
to do with Mr. Branca. I mean, I see a date...

ck
Judge Holmes: He can try. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. He can try. Do you recognize this handwriting
as Mr. Jackson's?

lJa
Mr. Branca: I could not confirm that this is Mr. Jackson's handwriting.

Judge Holmes: Okay. ae


Mr. Voth: So this is a document that was introduced in the wrongful death case filed by the family
against AEG. And as it... so your testimony is that you have no way of recognizing Michael Jackson's
handwriting in this document?
ich
Mr. Branca: I could not testify that this is Michael Jackson's handwriting.

Q. Why?

A. I'm not a handwriting expert.


mM

Q. Well, you don't have...

A. I don't have the original.

Q. ...to be a handwriting expert.


a

A. I've seen incredible signatures that are fake autographs. So if you're asking me under penalty of
perjury to assure you that this is Michael Jackson's handwriting, I cannot do that.
Te

Q. That's fair.

Mr. Voth: Despite his inability, Respondent will seek to move this document marked as 719-R for
w.

admission into evidence, Your Honor.

Mr. Weitzman: We would object, Your Honor. There's been no foundation, no authenticity of a
document...
ww

Judge Holmes: You are correct. This one's excluded. Next, Mr. Voth?
om
Mr. Voth: Now, Mr. Weitzman pulled up... I think he briefly talked about the film This Is It, and the
estate gave Columbia the right to use Michael Jackson's name. Is that correct?

n.c
Mr. Branca: We gave them the right to use Michael Jackson's footage copyrights...

Q. And his name, right?

A. ...and his name.

so
Q. Correct. All right.

Mr. Voth: No further questions, Your Honor.

ck
Judge Holmes: Okay. There is no redirect, is there?

Mr. Weitzman: Absolutely not.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Mr. Branca, you're really truly free to go.

Mr. Branca: Thank you, sir.


ae
ich

February 6th 2017


mM

Court Clerk: JOHN GREGORY BRANCA sworn in.

A. I do. I do.

Court Clerk: And will you please state your name and address for the record?

A. John Gregory Branca. Home or office address?


a

Court Clerk: Business is fine.


Te

A. 1801 Century Park West, Los Angeles, 90067.

Court Clerk: Thank you. You may be seated.


w.

A. Thanks.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead.


ww
om
Mr Weitzman: Thank you.
Q. Mr. Branca, can you tell us briefly your educational background through law school, summary
fashion if it pleases The Court?

n.c
A. Los Angeles City College, two years, Occidental College, graduated UCLA Law School.

Q. And what year did you graduate UCLA? UCLA, that's the number two law school out here, right?

A. Some would take exception to that.

so
Q. Objection. Sorry.

A. 1975.

ck
Q. And did you go to practice law after that?

A. Yes, I did.

lJa
Q. And where did you first practice?

A. I spent a year at Kindel and Anderson downtown LA, four years at Hardee, Barovick, Konecky, and
ae
Braun, and then I joined Ziffren and Brittenham.

Q. And at Hardee Barovick, did you work with David Braun?


ich
A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you work in the music end of the law business?

A. Yes, I did.
mM

Q. Tell us what you did again kind of in summary form, please, with Mr. Braun.

A. I was a young lawyer. I worked on tour contracts, recording agreements, music publishing.

Q. Any ... any musicians or people we would know that you worked on during that time ... worked
with?
a

A. Sure. Bob Dylan, Neil Diamond, George Harrison, and I signed The Beach Boys in 1978.
Te

Q. And did you sign The Beach Boys the group or Mr. Wilson?

A. Both, Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys.


w.

Q. And Mike Love, as well?

A. No.
ww

Q. Okay. Because I kind of ... I kind of knew it was one or the other. I couldn't remember which one.
om
All right. And then you left Mr. Braun and went where?

A. I joined Ziffren Brittenham January of '81.

n.c
Q. Okay. Before you met Mr. Braun did you meet Michael Jackson?

A. I met Michael Jackson in January of 1980 with David Braun.

Q. Okay. Tell us about that meeting.

so
A. Michael was either just turned 21 or turning 21. He wanted his own team independent of his
brothers and his family. He asked his accountant to set up meetings with several lawyers. We were the
first meeting, David Braun and me. It was set up by Michael's accountant, Michael Mesnick, who also

ck
was the accountant for The Beach Boys. And while in that meeting, I mean, if you want me to
elaborate, I think Michael and I had a comradery from the first meeting because he sat in the meeting
with this sunglasses on. And in the meeting he pulled his sunglasses down and he looked at me and he
said, "Do I know you?"

lJa
Mr. Voth: Objection; hearsay.

Judge Holmes: No statement implied. Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:
ae
Q. Go ahead, Mr. Branca.
ich
A. I said, "I don't think we've met, but I look forward to getting to know you better." And Michael
said, "Are you sure we haven't met?" And I said, "Michael, I think I would have remembered it."

Q. So you left Mr. Braun, move over to Ziffren and Brittenham. And did Michael Jackson move over
there with you?
mM

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And that was in I think you said 1980 or '81?

A. I met him in '80. I moved to Ziffren in '81.


a

Q. And, again, at Ziffren what kind of music ... what kind of practice did you specialize in?
Te

A. Specialized in the music business and the touring business.

Q. And in those early days at the Ziffren firm what musicians, preferably some we would recognize,
did you represent?
w.

A. Well, we still ... we worked with Neil Diamond. I started representing Earth Wind and Fire and then
the Rolling Stones, Elton John, The Doors, a number ... Carlos Santana, a number of others.
ww

Q. With respect to estates did you ever work with estates at or about that time period that is after a
performer had passed away?
om
A. Well, if you're talking in the early 80s, I started representing The Doors which was the Jim
Morrison estate. But most of the estate work I started to do was a little later on.

n.c
Q. Well, just fast forward for that piece.

A. Yeah. I worked with ...

Q. What estate work and about when did the work occur and who did you represent?

so
Mr. Voth: Objection; compound, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Rephrase.

ck
Mr Weitzman: Yes, Your Honor.

Mr. Weitzman:

lJa
Q. Can you tell us what performers estates you represented?

A. Kurt Cobain estate, Janis Joplin estate, Otis Redding estate, and probably others.
ae
Q. Okay. And for ... during what years did you represent them?

A. In the 90s into the ... into the 2000s.


ich
Q. Okay. So moving back to Michael Jackson now, what was the first work you did that you can recall
for Michael Jackson?

A. There were two things. I did a new affiliation agreement with BMI for public performance royalties
and I renegotiated his record contract with CBS Records, which is now known as Sony. Michael had
mM

recorded Off the Wall under a contract that covered his brothers as well himself and he wanted his own
contract. So we negotiated a con- ... I negotiated a contract for Michael separately from his brothers.

Q. Now, BMI, what is BMI and what does the revenue stream constitute?

A. BMI is ...
a

Mr. Voth: Objection; compound, Your Honor.


Te

Judge Holmes: What is BMI?

A. Broadcast Music, Inc. It's one of the societies that collects the public performance of songs. When
songs are played in bars, restaurants, stadiums, Staple Center they get a license for the right to play
w.

those songs. BMI collects those royalties.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And then does BMI distribute them to the performers?
ww

A. Yes.
om
Q. And ...

A. To the writers.

n.c
Q. To the writers. Right. So it's for publishing, not for recording?

A. Correct.

so
Q. As long as I'm on that, could you just tell us what the publishing part of the music business refers
to?

A. Publishing is the ownership of the compositions, the songs. Sometimes they're owned by the writer,

ck
sometimes the writer signs to a publishing company that helps exploit the songs. That's different from
the recordings which 74 is when you perform, when you record a song. Sometimes an artist records his
own songs, sometimes he records other people's songs.

lJa
Q. So if an artist ... if an artist recorded someone else's song, you would refer to the revenue stream ...
or one of the revenue streams as coming from the masters?

A. That would be the recording performer, yes.


ae
Q. And if the ... if the performer wrote the song or part of it and sang the song, they would get a
revenue stream from the masters and from the publishing; is that correct?
ich
A. Yes. They're separate rights. Separate income streams.

Q. Okay. And, by the way, are those rights ever sold separately in the music business?

A. Yeah. I mean, most artists do not own their master recordings. That's unusual. They're usually
mM

owned by a record company. With regard to compositions or songs it's all over the map. Some writers
own their songs, some don't.

Q. Okay. And could people buy publishing and not own the masters?

A. Yes.
a

Q. Is that done often?


Te

A. Yes, absolutely.

Q. Have you been involved in that with other clients, not Michael Jackson?
w.

A. Yeah. I've been involved in a number of music publishing sales or acquisitions.

Q. For performers we might recognize?


ww

A. Yes.
om
Q. Like who?

A. I represented Berry Gordy in the sale of the Jobete catalog which was basically all the songs that
had been recorded from Motown Records ... Diana Ross, Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, Temps,

n.c
Tops, Jackson 5 ... all owned by that company. I sold that company. The Rodgers and Hammerstein
organization I sold that. They owned all the great songs from the Rodgers and Hammerstein plays.
Lieber and Stoller who had written close to 30 songs for Elvis Pressley plus songs for the Platters, the
Coasters. He also wrote "Stand By Me", one of the classics. I sold copyrights for Maurice White of
Earth Wind and Fire, Kurt Cobain, Steven Tyler of Aerosmith, a number of others.

so
Q. Okay. And name and likeness did you ... did you include any of those when you sold all those
publishing catalogs?

ck
A. When you're dealing with a recording the name and likeness is inherent in the right to the recording.
In other words, if you had a song like "Billie Jean", you wouldn't expect the DJ to say this is a song by
an artist that comes from Gary, Indiana, that lived in Encino, and now lives at Neverland. You'd say this
is a song my Michael Jackson.

lJa
Q. Got it. So if someone controlled the masters and they distribute it, it could ... or sold it, I guess, the
artist could be identified and the owner of the masters wouldn't have to use ... wouldn't have to own
name and likeness; is that correct?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. Okay. So when you started representing Michael, and you mentioned this was because he was
ich
becoming a solo artist he wanted his own agreement, you negotiated a recording agreement for him
with ... with CBS, which is now Sony, correct?

A. Correct.
mM

Q. Okay. What does a recording contract or agreement consist of?

A. The artist agrees to record a certain number of recordings. Back in the day they used to be known as
albums. And ...

Q. Those days have long come and gone.


a

A. Yeah. The recording company then has the right to market and exploit the recordings. They usually
pay in advance when an album is delivered and then they pay royalties from the sale of those
Te

recordings.

Q. And when they pay in advance how does the record company get their money back from the
advance?
w.

A. Out of the royalties earned by the artist from the sale of the recordings.

Q. And does the artist have to pay it back before he or she collects the money or are there other
ww

arrangements worked out sometimes?


om
A. No. Gen- ...

Mr. Voth: Objection; compound.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

A. Generally, they have to recoup the advance out of earnings before they receive any more earnings.
They may deliver another album and get another advance, but they're not going to get royalties until the
advances are recouped.

so
Q. And the royalties are separate from the advances and the obligation to recoup, correct?

Mr. Voth: Objection; leading.

ck
Judge Holmes: That one's sustained.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Can you distinguish for us the difference between the advance revenue stream and the royalty?

A. The advance is an advance against the royalty so the advance is paid generally when the masters are
ae
delivered. And then as they sell a certain amount of money is credited to the artist which gets applied
against the advance.

Q. And so who owned Michael Jackson's masters when you first renegotiated the recording agreement
ich
with CBS?

A. The record company did.

Q. That would be CBS?


mM

A. Yeah. Technically Epic Records, but it was part of CBS.

Q. It was ... Epic was the label of CBS?

A. Correct.
a

Q. And ... and had Michael started to write songs at that time?
Te

A. Yes. He wrote three songs on Off the Wall and he had written songs for the Jacksons on one or two
other albums before Off the Wall.

Q. So Michael owned those songs?


w.

A. Yes.

Mr. Voth: Objection; leading.


ww

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


om
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And did he write some of the songs with others?

n.c
A. Michael ended up writing songs for others, but I don't believe in 1980 he had done that yet.

Q. And the ownership of those songs was referred to as owning your own publishing, correct?

A. Correct.

so
Q. So after you renegotiated the BMI deal and the Epic label CBS deal, did you do ... not did you,
what's the next work you did for Michael that you can remember?

ck
A. Well, I mean, there were a number of things that, you know, I did for Michael. He would turn to
help getting his pinball machine fixed and that kind of thing. But in terms of serious, serious work ...

Q. Lawyer-like stuff.

lJa
A. But that was important to Michael. The next ... the next project was Thriller. Michael went to the
studio with Quincy Jones and they started to record that album and, you know, that was the next piece
of work.
ae
Q. And Michael wrote some songs on that album, didn't he?

A. Yes, four. Four songs.


ich

Q. Do you remember what they were?

A. "The Girl is Mine", "Billie Jean", "Beat It", and "Want to be Starting Something".
mM

Q. And ... and at the time were entertainers creating as a marketing tool videos to be shown on
television?

A. It was a new sort of art form that rose with MTV and so, yes, that practice had begun.

Q. And did Michael do any videos for marketing purposes associated with the Thriller album?
a

A. Yes. He did some of the greatest videos of all time.


Te

Q. Okay. Do you remember, excluding Thriller for a moment, do you remember any of the videos he
did from that album that you just referenced?

A. From Thriller?
w.

Q. Yes.

A. Yeah. He did "Billie Jean" the light up sidewalk, he did "Beat It" which was sort of a gang fight,
ww

and then he did Thriller, which is widely considered the most important and the best short film, as
Michael would call it, of all time.
om
Q. Who wrote the song "Thriller"?

A. Rod Temperton.

n.c
Q. And Rod Temperton, therefore, controlled the publishing?

A. Yes, he did.

so
Q. And how did the Thriller short film come about?

A. Michael wanted to do something from the horror genre and he's seen the movie American Werewolf
in London directed by John Landis. So he asked us to get in touch with John Landis to see if he'd be

ck
interested in directing the video. We did. He was interested and that's how it started.

Q. And then were you involved in the process of creating ... helping create the Thriller short film?

lJa
A. Yes. Videos at that time were costing about $50,000 and Michael and John Landis came in with a
budget that exceeded a million dollars. If it recall it was a million-two. And the record company was
not prepared to fund it so I sat down with Michael and he said, "Branca, figure it out. I'm doing this
video." So I went to ... suggested that they do a long form making of Thriller, which was a one-hour
ae
special, that we were able to get MTV and Showtime to buy and Vestron Home Video to put out as a
home video and we raised about a million-two.

Q. And so the video got made as we've all come ... well, most of us have all come to know it?
ich

A. Yeah, absolutely.

Q. Were there any problems in getting the video released?


mM

A. Yes. Yes, there were. When the video was in the editing stage it was close to being completed at the
time Michael's mother was a member of Jehovah's Witness and Michael was a member. And they went
to him and they really read him the riot act and basically said that it promoted demonology and this was
not something he should be doing.

Q. But you mean his mother and/or some representatives from the Jehovah's Witness Church?
a

A. Correct. The Jehovah's Witnesses. So Michael called me up and he asked me to get the canisters,
the actual physical negatives, of the video and get them in my office, which I did. And he told me to
Te

destroy them.

Q. I'm going to assume they weren't destroyed so what happened?


w.

A. That's correct. We had a series of conversations. Michael was distraught. He was a very
conscientious person, very moral and he really thought about this. And so I waited each day when he
would call to ask if I'd done it yet, which, of course, I could ... I would never do that. And finally we
discussed ... I had an idea. I told him that I'd been a fan of Bela Lugosi as a kid who played Dracula. I
ww

told him Bela Lugosi was a very religious man and that there was a disclaimer on Bela Lugosi's
movies. Why don't we put a disclaimer at the beginning of Thriller that said it does not reflect your
om
personal beliefs? Michael said, "Great. Let's do that." And if you ever see the video you see the
disclaimer at the beginning. It went out, the album sold a million copies the following week.

Q. You know, I've never seen a disclaimer on Bela Lugosi's films.

n.c
A. Well, neither have I. Incidentally, I just want to say something. I'm not in any sense ... Michael ...
I'm going to tear up. Michael was a genius. People did not understand him. He was a great guy, he was
moral, conscientious, was very good to me. I think I was very good for him. And when you tell these
stories it might sound like, wow, Michael was a little ... no. He wasn't odd at all. He was just driven and

so
was a perfectionist. But he didn't grow up like the rest of us. He had his first number one record when
he was ten years old and supported his entire family. So there's no way that he would have been on the
school yard figuring out, you know, understanding everybody's moves. He was sitting with Berry
Gordy in the recording studio learning how to be a great artist. So when I tell these stories I actually tell

ck
them with affection, not in any way to suggest anything other than Michael was a wonderful individual
and a great artist.

Q. Let's move to something else. After Thriller what's the next ... my word because, you know, we

lJa
only have a limited period of time here so this is my word. What's the next ... next meaningful thing
that you can recall taking place?

A. Well, after Thriller came out, I mean, the album was just huge. Worldwide phenomenon. Michael
ae
let go his managers at the time Weisner-DeMann. He kind of ran the show himself, you know, we
helped him execute. The next thing that came up was the Victory tour and the Victory album. And
Michael did that tour as a way to help out his family. He gave away his share. He didn't have ... he
didn't get a share any more than any other brother. He gave his share to charity. He was the lead singer,
ich
the lead performer in order to help his family out because that was his way of saying, okay, now I've
got to ... I've got to do my own thing. So I was involved with him in the Victory Tour, the Victory
album. The Pepsi deal for that, then we bought the Beetles catalog in '85, the Victory Tour was '84.

Q. Right. So let me just kind of back up for a moment. The Victory Tour had a sponsor for the tour?
mM

A. It did. Michael didn't want it, but Pepsi came in and they offered a lot of money. And I'll never
forget that negotiation. Michael made me write into the contract that he would never been seen holding
the Pepsi can and he would never be on screen for more than three seconds.

Q. Really?
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. Sorry. I'm not sure I heard that story before. And Pepsi agreed to it?

A. Yes, they did.


w.

Q. And ... and were those the commercials when the incident took place?

A. Yes. During the filming of the Pepsi commercial the fireworks landed on Michael's head, it burned
his scalp, yeah.
ww

Q. And nevertheless did they go out and do the tour?


om
A. Yes.

Q. That is Michael and his brothers?

n.c
A. Yes, they did.

Q. Okay. And when did you and Michael discuss he, Michael, owning his own masters?

so
A. Well, after Thriller ... the head of the record company, Walter Yetnikoff, was a little pissed off they
took too long in the ...

Q. You mean he was mad?

ck
A. He was mad.

Q. Got it.

lJa
A. Sorry. All right. Let me clean up this language. And that it took so long to deliver the album. In the
middle of it Michael sang a song for an ET storybook album and there ended up being a lawsuit
between two corporations, Sony and Universal, which incensed Michael and Quincy and everybody.
ae
The album came out and it was huge. It's the biggest selling album in history. Walter called me up one
day and he always called me Branca, but this day he called me John. He said, "You know, John, pardon
the language, I think I screwed up." I said, "You really did, Walter." He said, "What can I do to make it
right?" I said, "Give him the ownership of his masters." So during the course of the Thriller project we
ich
renegotiated Michael's contract several times, but one of the benefits Michael got was the ownership of
his master recordings including Off the Wall which had previously been delivered.

Q. So what's the meaning to someone like Michael Jackson of owning his own masters?
mM

A. Well, if you own the masters you may have a distribution deal with a la- ... with a major label that
will release the ... but at some point the right to make all the decisions on those masters will come back
to you, including taking them from Sony to Warners or somebody else if you feel like it or you could
sell them.

Q. You mean just sell them separately different from the publishing ...
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. ... different from any name and likeness concept?

A. Correct.
w.

Mr. Voth: Objection; compound.

Mr Weitzman: Okay.
ww

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


om
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And then you mentioned earlier after masters that was it Bad that was the next project?

A. Bad was 1987.

n.c
Q. So because I got lost in my thought. I can't remember where I was in my notes so give me a
moment. So you have Thriller, you have the masters, you have the Victory Tour.

A. Yeah. We bought the ATV, the Beetles catalog.

so
Q. There you go, ATV. Sorry. Got a little lost. Tell me about buying ATV. That was a ... that's a catalog,
right, of ...

ck
A. Yes.

Q. ... publishing rights?

lJa
A. Yes. It started as an operating company. And when we bought it we let all the employees go and it
became a pure catalog.

Q. Okay. Now wait. When you say "it started as an operating company", could you explain to us what
that means?
ae
A. Well, there's a difference between a catalog where ... okay. Let me use an example. Bob Dylan owns
his songs.
ich

Q. Owns his ... owns the songs he wrote?

A. Owns his music ... it's an example. Like Michael owns his catalog of songs he wrote. You don't
need 50 or 100 or 1,000 employees. You just you have your catalog. You hire a company, you pay them
mM

5 or 10 percent, they issue licenses, they collect the money, and they pay it to you. It's ... there's no
overhead whatsoever. If you have a company like Universal Music Group, Warner Music Group, Sony,
you have hundreds or thousands of copyrights, you have hundreds or thousands of employees and
offices all over the world because not only do you own ... well, they're not writers, but you own
thousands ... hundreds of thousands of copyrights. So it's different. It has large overhead. The income
that comes in doesn't go to the bottom line because you've got overhead ... office, insurance,
employees, et cetera.
a

Q. And is the business more to sell those catalogs, is that what the business is? I'm sorry. So the as- ...
Te

the songs in those various catalogs.

A. Well, if you're a worldwide music publisher you license songs for movies, commercials, TV, that
kind of thing. You collect money from record companies for exploitation of the songs and then you 91
w.

pay them to the writer or the owner.

Q. So you do the whole process for the writer. If I'm a writer and I come to you with my compositions,
my publishing catalog, and I ... is my goal to ask you to monetize it in some fashion ...
ww

A. Yes.
om
Q. ... and I'll pay you a percentage for that?

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. Okay. And if it's just the catalogs I'm ... if I only own the catalogs I can do it on my own, as well,
but then I'm not part of a publishing company; is that correct?

A. Correct.

so
Mr. Voth: Objection; leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. You can rephrase and get the same information, Mr. Weitzman.

ck
Mr Weitzman: Very well.

Q. If I own my own songs and I wanted to distribute them myself, could I do that?

lJa
A. Yes.

Q. If I wanted some help where would I go to get help to sell my product?


ae
A. Well, you could collect the income yourself, you could use BMI to collect performance income.
You'd probably use a foreign publisher to collect money in overseas countries. If you were going to sell
your copyrights you would go to somebody like me to negotiate a deal to sell them to a publisher.
ich

Q. Okay. And if I ... if I connected up with a publishing company what would they do for me?

A. Well, a publishing company would issue licenses, as I said, for movies, TV, public performance,
they would collect overseas money. They would sometimes even pitch the songs. If an advertiser called
mM

them up and they said, "We have a Nike commercial. Do you have a good song?" They might say, "Use
"Revolution," you know, something like that.

Q. And how does the publishing company get paid?

A. Well, they get a percentage of the revenue depending on the deal.


a

Q. By the way, do recording companies get sold, as well?


Te

A. Occasionally. Not as often, but occasionally, yes. Universal Music Group's been sold a couple times
in the last 15 years.

Q. And recording companies consist of what assets?


w.

A. Owning recordings.

Q. Owning masters?
ww

A. Master recordings.
om
Q. And have you ever been involved in those sales, sales like that?

A. I've been a consultant on the acquisition of Universal ... Universal Music Group I consulted with

n.c
Matsushita and then Vivendi on helping the value of the company.

Q. Now, by the way, when you got Michael Jackson the ownership of his masters was that something
that was traditionally done in the music business?

so
A. It's rare. It was rare and it is rare.

Q. And in 1983, '84, '85, can you recall at this point artists that owned their own recordings?

ck
A. There were a few, just a handful that I recall.

Q. Like who?

lJa
A. Bob Dylan, Neil Diamond, maybe Barbara Streisand.

Q. Okay. Prince? ae
A. No.

Q. Prince didn't own his own masters?


ich
A. No. Not the Warner masters. Later on at the end of his career he might have owned an album or
two, but the bulk of his catalog's owned by Warners.

Q. How about the Beetles, they own their masters?


mM

A. No. They're owned by EMI.

Q. So you mentioned Michael's management team. After Freddy DeMann and Ron Weisner were
dismissed who took over the managerial responsibilities? This, again, is in 1984, '85?

A. Well, there was a period where, in a sense, Michael ran his own career with assistance from me and
others. And then in '84, mid-'80- ... he hired Frank DiLeo to come on as his manager.
a

Q. Had you known DiLeo ... Mr. DiLeo before he was brought on?
Te

A. I did not know him well. He was the head of promotion for Epic Records, Michael's record
company, and he was responsible for promoting Michael's records.
w.

Q. Okay. And what was the next thing that you worked on after ATV ... the purchase of ATV? Oh,
wait. You didn't tell us about the purchase of ATV. How did that happen?

A. Michael had spent time with Paul McCartney making video recording "Say, Say, Say" and "The
ww

Girl is Mine" and one other song. And Paul showed Michael his booked that he owned Buddy Holly
catalog and a number of other things. And he said, "Michael, you should do this." So Michael called
om
me up and he said, "Can you help me buy copyrights?" The first ... we bought some copyrights early on
the Sly and the Family Stone catalog, we bought a couple Dion and Belmonts songs, "Run Around
Sue" and the "Wanderer". We bought a song called "One, Two, Three". And then I got ... I heard that
ATV was for sale, which was ... owned the Beetles and Little Richard and Pointer Sisters and another

n.c
of other songs. I called up Michael, told him it was for sale. And he instructed me to call Yoko Ono and
he instructed me to call Paul McCartney. I called Yoko Ono and she said it would be wonderful if
Michael bought this company. I couldn't call Paul directly so I called his lawyer, John Eastman, whose
sister was married to Paul.

so
Q. Linda. Linda Eastman?

A. Linda Eastman, excuse me. And I'll never forget he said to me. I asked is Paul going to buy the
ATV, the Beetles catalog. And he said, "No. It's way too pricey." So I said, "Well, Michael's interested."

ck
And he said, "God bless him." And so after that we took a year to buy this company and ...

Q. Was there a ... other advisers besides yourself that weighed in on whether ATV should be bought or
not?

lJa
A. Yes. Michael had an investment committee.

Q. Who was on the investment committee?


ae
A. David Geffen, John Johnson who at the time was the richest black man in America, my partner Ken
Ziffren, myself, and Michael's then accountant Marshall Gelfand.
ich
Q. And did you meet with some regularity to discuss business and financial issues?

A. Two or three times a year.

Q. And was there a meeting when this issue came up?


mM

A. Yes. Yes. There were those in the room that felt that the price was too expensive. It was in the high
30s. It got to 47.5 and there were those in the room against it. But Michael during the meeting slipped
me a note and he said, "Branca, it's my catalog. We must buy it," something to that effect.

Q. Could you ... could you put up Exhibit I think it's 579-P? Can you see from the ... oh, you've got a
monitor ...
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. ... right in front of you?

A. That's it, yes. That's it.


w.

Q. That's the note?

A. Yes.
ww

Q. All right. Could you explain the note to His Honor and to us?
om
A. Well, I wrote ATV at the top, but the rest is Michael's writing. He's ... we were talking about raising
our offer to 47.5 and Michael said, "Please, let's not bargain. I don't want to lose the deal. Let's take
Johnson's advice." And Johnson's advice was sometimes I'd lose the best deals by over negotiating. He

n.c
said, "Lots of his deal ... he lose lots of his deal that way," and he signed it Michael Jackson and he
handed it to me.

Q. And ...

so
Mr. Voth: Your Honor, just for clarification. We're not aware of an Exhibit 579-P so if Petitioner's
counsel can explain.

Mr. Toscher: Yeah. No. It's ... Your Honor, let me address. It's not in the stipulation. It's out of the ...

ck
he's going to authenticate it and then Mr. Weitzman will decide whether he wants to offer it or not.
You've got a copy of it right there.

Judge Holmes: We need to get it marked for the record for identification.

lJa
Mr Weitzman: I thought it was. Could this be marked? Is that the exhibit number, though, or do we
need a new one? ae
Mr. Toscher: That's the next number in order.

Mr. Voth: While we're at this, Your Honor, what is your preference with respect to exhibits that have
yet to be exchanged between the parties? Can we do that electronically?
ich

Judge Holmes: When you're thinking about them, have Ms. Wood mark them and identify them for
the record. That way whether or not they're admitted we have a record of their being used like this one.

Mr. Camp: Your Honor, we may have a little bit of a numbering issue because the first stipulation
mM

ended at 578. The parties have subsequently started working on a third stipulation of facts which has
documents. And I believe so far we're through 621. So would it be possible to have the next number
start at 622?

Judge Holmes: Why not? Go ahead, Ms. Wood.

Mr. Camp: Thank you, Your Honor.


a

Judge Holmes: 622-P.


Te

Mr Weitzman: Your Honor, I apologize. I thought it was already marked so marked next in order
would be great. And should the clerk publish the ... or show Mr. Branca the note for ...
w.

Judge Holmes: Let her first identify it for the record and then we'll take it from there.

Court Clerk: So Exhibit 622-P has been marked for identification.


ww

Judge Holmes: And bringing it to the witness. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.


om
Mr Weitzman: Yeah. Thank you, Your Honor.

Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. Mr. Branca, could you look at that note and tell us whether or not that's the note that ... or a copy of
the note ...

A. It's a copy of the note, yes.

so
Q. ... that Michael Jackson passed to you ...

A. The actual note is about the size of this paper here.

ck
Q. So after Michael passed you the note ... he passed you that note in the meeting?

A. Yeah.

lJa
Q. And then what happened in the meeting?

A. We decided to go forward and ... or Michael decided to go forward and instructed me to try to
purchase the catalog. And it took quite some time to do that.

Q. And what do you mean "took quite some time"?


ae
A. The man who owned it, Robert Holmes a Court was an Australian. They called him Robert Bear .
ich
He was a corporate raider. And we would shake hands on a deal, and then he would change it a week or
a month later. And then he finally ended up signing a memo of intent with another party for more
money. So there was a moment when it looked like we were not going to get this catalog.

Q. And the ... is there a story behind the person that he signed the deal with for more money?
mM

A. Yeah. Well, it was Charles Koppelman and Marty Bandier. They went on to run EMI. But Marty's
now the chairman of Sony ATV, which was Michael's publishing company. And I'll never forget flying
back on the plane. I flew there on the plane with them and flew back. And I had Michael's power of
attorney solely for the purpose of signing that deal. And I'll never forget they said to me, "You trumped
us. If we're ever in a position to buy a company like that again, would you represent us?" And I said,
"Sure," not thinking anything would come of it. And then a year later I bought CBS Songs for them.
a

107 But with ... when it came to Michael one of the things we did was I had lined up our financing, I
made sure that we were in the position to close. And when Holmes a Court wanted us to ... wanted me
Te

to come back to England to close the deal with him, I refused because he ... so he actually almost
begged me to come because he knew Koppelman couldn't close the deal. So I went back there and I
said I'm there for 24 hours. It either gets signed or never call me again.
w.

Q. You flew to Australia?

A. I flew to ... he was ... he was in London.


ww

Q. In London. And it got signed?


om
A. Got signed.

Q. Didn't extract anything else from you?

n.c
A. Yes, he did. He ... he had a favorite charity. He was from Perth, Australia, which I don't know if
you've ever been to Australia. It's hard enough to get to Sydney. That's 16 hours from Los Angeles, but
Sydney to Perth is another five hours. So Michael flew down to make an appearance, not to sing, but
just an appearance at Mr. Holmes a Court's charity event. Michael stayed for the requisite two or three
hours, turned around, and flew all the way back. That's how much this catalog meant to him.

so
Q. Wow.

A. And also we had to let his daughter retain ownership of "Penny Lane".

ck
Q. And I know this is not going to be a tough question. His daughter's name was?

A. I believe it was Penny.

lJa
Q. Then what happened next?

A. larger moment after ATV was bought, and I assume that the Victory Tour was completed?

A. Yeah.
ae
Q. By the way, the Victory Tour was successful?
ich

A. Yes. It was successful for Michael and the Jacksons. It was not so successful for the promoter.

Q. Who was the promoter of the Victory ...


mM

A. Chuck Sullivan, his family owned the New England Patriots and Sullivan Stadium at the time. They
don't anymore.

Q. But wait. If the tour was successful, why was it not successful to the promoter?

A. You know, Chuck was not a promoter. And instead of mapping out the tour in advance ... because
all the dates were sold out. I think we ... Michael did maybe six dates at Dodger Stadium or was it nine.
a

I mean, it was amazing. It was incredible. But this man had a tendency as he was negotiating the rent
deal and trying to save an extra hundred grand on the rent deal, he would put the tickets on sale, you
Te

know, a week before the shows. It was pretty much chaos. And he had a large organization. I mean, I
don't know that he lost money. Any other promoter would have made money from the tour. But the
brothers, Michael ... Michael's brothers did well.
w.

Q. Did you have any other dealings with Mr. Sullivan besides that tour?

A. Well, I think ... I think that's what put him under. At the very, very end of that cycle, at the end of
'84 after, you know, Thriller hit its peak and there was a lot of controversy around the Victory Tour that
ww

unfortunately rubbed off on Michael a little bit because the brothers brought in Don King to promote it
and then he was fired and then Chuck Sullivan came in. And it was ... there was a mail order system.
om
And Michael did this all for charity. But what happened was at the very end of this, we did a clothing
deal with Chuck Sullivan. He paid Michael ...

Q. What ... I'm sorry. What do you mean "clothing deal"?

n.c
A. We did a deal. You know, Michael was a fashion icon with his military jackets, the beaded leather
jacket, the Thriller jacket, with, you know, the gloves, everything that he did and so ...

Q. So ... so wait. I'm sorry. So this is like a name and likeness deal where Michael would allow his

so
name and/or likeness ...

A. Yes.

ck
Q. ... to be used to merchandise clothing?

A. This was a real name and likeness deal.

lJa
Q. And this was '84/85 kind of right in the middle of his popularity?

A. Yes. ae
Q. So like an endorsement of some sort or ...

A. Yeah. I mean, they would have used music, as well. But this was a pure ... a real name and likeness
deal as opposed to use of name and likeness with music or masters.
ich

Q. Okay. What happened?

A. He paid Michael $28 million and he never ...


mM

Q. Two-eight?

A. Twenty-eight million dollars at the time, which in 1985 terms, I mean, 2016 would be an awful lot
more. I don't believe he ever got the clothing line out. It wasn't successful and unfortunately he ... the
family, I don't know if they went bankrupt, but they ended up selling the Patriots and Sullivan Stadium,
which in light of last night's events makes it even more poignant.
a

Q. Yeah. So the next tour that happened was what?


Te

A. There was the ... we bought Neverland. But the Bad Tour was ... Bad album and Bad Tour were the
next big events.

Q. Okay. Did you buy Neverland before or after the Bad Tour, if you recall?
w.

A. It was right around that time, '86/87. I don't remember the exact date.

Q. Let's ... when you're talking about music stuff, let's switch for a change to Neverland and that'll
ww

send the exact year. How did the purchase of Neverland come about and were you involved?
om
A. Neverland, which was where Paul ... a place that Paul McCartney rented and Michael stayed at
when they were working on their music together, came up for sale. It was owned by a man named Bill
Bone. Beautiful 2700 acres. So there was a real estate broker up there that told Michael he could get it
for $60 million, 6- 0. So Michael's, you know, Bill Bray, his body guard, they were all. So one day

n.c
Michael finally called me on this one and he said, "Branca, can you get into this?" So I said, "Sure."
And we got the price down to 17.5, which included all the furnishings and the wine collection.

Q. And ...

so
A. Still expensive.

Q. ... bought the ranch, then ...

ck
A. Yeah.

Q. ... 17.5? Okay. And the next tour was the Bad Tour?

lJa
A. Yeah.

Q. And was there a sponsor in the Bad Tour? ae


A. Yes. We got Pepsi back on board to sponsor the tour.

Q. And how did ... how well did that tour do?
ich
A. Did very well. Very, very well around the world ...

Q. Now ...

A. ... especially outside the U.S.


mM

Q. Was Michael more popular outside the U.S. back then than here?

A. Well, Michael's always been popular everywhere. But it's an interesting phenomenon that 70
percent of Michael's album sales ... and the same was true on the movie This is It ... came from outside
the U.S.
a

Q. Huh. So after the Neverland purchase, did Michael make ... do you recall Michael making another
name and likeness deal with a company called L.
Te

A. . Gear?

A. Yes. We did a deal with L.


w.

A. . Gear for sneakers.

Q. For shoes?
ww

A. Shoes.
om
Q. And how much money did Michael get for that deal?

A. I don't recall the exact amount. It was ...

n.c
Q. And was that a successful deal? That is successful for L.

A. . Gear.

so
A. It did not turn out well, no.

Q. Okay. That company go bankrupt, as well, or out of business?

ck
A. It might ... it might have. I don't ... I don't recall.

Q. Okay. What was the next tour that took place?

lJa
A. After Bad?

Q. Yes. ae
A. Well, I was not involved. There was a three-year period where I was not involved. But the next
album and tour were Dangerous.

Q. And at some point during the Dangerous Tour, was there anything that took place that kind of
ich
changed the landscape for Michael Jackson?

A. Michael canceled a number of dates. There were some lawsuits that came out of that from
promoters. And then at the end of ... toward the end of it there were these allegations from Jordan
Chandler.
mM

Q. And then Michael stopped that tour and what did he do if you recall not legalwise, you know,
personally?

A. Well, he went into a rehab facility. And, at that time, he reached out to me and asked me to come
back on board and basically fired everybody that was working for him.
a

Q. Almost everybody.
Te

A. Almost every- ... I forgot, Howard, I'm sorry.

Q. It's all right. I was lucky, John. So, but you all came in, and but for me, basically cleaned house?
A. Yeah.
w.

Q. Okay. And as the Chandler thing unfolded, did Michael stop entertaining for a while or working for
a while?
ww

A. I don't ... I don't know if I would say ... I mean, Johnnie Cochran handled that matter with you. I
was not much involved. And it was he eventually did another album, but that was not until '96/97.
om
Q. Which album was that?

A. The History album.

n.c
Q. And did he tour for the History?

A. He toured for the History album in '97, yeah.

so
Q. Okay. Now ...

A. Overseas. He did not tour in the U.S. except the final date in Hawaii.

ck
Q. And after the Chandler allegations arose and before the History Tour was there, another financial
incident, for lack of a better phrase, that took place with your help in Michael's life?

A. There was a lawsuit from a couple of promoters, Marcel Avram in Germany. I think the Mexican

lJa
promoter may have sued. Johnnie Cochran worked a settlement with the Chandler family.

Q. Was Michael having financial problems in 1995?


ae
A. I ... you know, I hate to talk about Michael's personal ...

Q. I'm not going to ask you to talk about numbers. I know that. I'm just going to ask with The Court's
permission for a yes or no answer. And it is: Did Michael have financial problems in or around 1995?
ich

A. There were ...

Q. Please answer yes or no.


mM

A. There were financial pressures.

Q. Okay. And there were lawsuits by promoters, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And, at the time, he still owned ATV, correct?


a

A. Yes, he did.
Te

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. Did he still own ATV?


w.

A. Yes, he did.

Judge Holmes: There you go. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.


ww

Mr Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.


om
Q. Did you do anything with respect to the ATV business?

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. What?

A. Michael had been approached about selling half of his interest in Sony ATV or maybe it was all of
his interest. And he called me up and asked me if I thought it was a good idea and I said, "Absolutely
not."

so
Q. And was this at a time when you were not representing him?

A. I was not representing him. So he sent me the offer to look at. I said, "Don't sign it." So then he

ck
asked me to come back on board. And we had the opportunity with the chairman of Sony Corporation
of America, Mickey Schulhof, we had a discussion about taking Michael's catalog and merging it with
Sony's music publishing company to call it Sony ATV. And what happened is we were able to get
Michael more money plus half of their company than he had been offered just to sell.

lJa
Q. So you made the deal with Sony ATV?

A. Yes. We created Sony ATV in 1995.


ae
Q. And kind of in summary fashion, what was the deal with Sony ATV?

A. Joint ownership of the company, they paid Michael, I think it's been in the records, $115 million
ich
equalizing payment. They guaranteed him $6 and a half million a year in cash flow for a period of time.
He had the right to approve the CEO. They operated the company. And neither party, if I recall ... I'm
going back 21 years ... had the right to buy the other out.

Q. So there was no buy/sell at that time?


mM

A. Again, I would want to go back and look at the document in '95, but I don't believe so.

Q. And at the time you merged Sony Music with Sony ... or Sony Publishing with Sony ATV, was
Michael having financial problems?

A. Pressures, yeah.
a

Q. Did part of the deal you made with Sony ATV include a loan for Michael?
Te

A. I don't think at that time, but I don't recall. Maybe they guaranteed a loan. I don't recall.

Q. So ATV had been a catalog that you owned before Sony ATV's ...
w.

A. Michael owned.

Q. ... merger ... Michael ...


ww

A. Yeah.
om
Q. ... before the Sony ATV merger; is that correct?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. And did you have employees at ATV?

A. Now, there was one employee, Dale Kawashima. But when we bought ATV, they had, I can't
remember, 60 or 80 employees, which we let go and we distributed the assets out of the company into

so
Michael's personal name. And then we hired publishing companies to administer and look after the
copyrights so we didn't have to have all that overhead.

Q. So even when you were just a catalog company, you hired larger publishing companies to help

ck
exploit the assets?

A. Correct.

lJa
Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.

A. Because they would have ... ae


Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. How did you sell or monetize the assets of ATV before you merged with Sony?
ich

A. Well, we had an administration deal at one time with EMI. And then when I was out of the picture,
it was moved to Universal, which is where Geffen was. And then when I came back in, we dealt ...we
dealt with it. But, basically, we'd pay them a fee of usually 5 percent. So if the company earned $10
million, EMI or Universal would get $500,000 for taking care of all the activity of the publishing
mM

company throughout the world. They had offices throughout Europe, throughout Asia, South America,
Africa. So for 5 percent, so 95 percent would come back to Michael.

Q. And when you merged with Sony ATV, did ATV's part of the business change?

A. Well, yeah. What happened was it became part of an operating company. So Michael got this
guarantee of about 147.5 or $148 million. And the beauty of it ... and I remember writing a memo and
a

talking to Michael about it. He wasn't going to get the same cash flow that he had been getting, but
Sony was going to finance all the acquisitions and the growth of the company. So over the 20 years
Te

after that they bought Paramount Pictures Publishing Company, they bought Lieber and Stoller, they
signed the Fugees, Taylor Swift, you know, just one act after another. And the catalog kept growing in
value so the asset value that Michael had grew. And then over the years, we renegotiated the cash flow
that he got out of it.
w.

Q. And ...

A. It was a forced savings, if you will.


ww

Q. A forced savings did you say?


om
A. Yeah.

Q. Was one of the purposes of Sony ATVS of the merger in the business to grow the company bigger?

n.c
A. Yes. Yes, it was. But to be ... to be perfectly frank, if there wasn't the financial pressures, maybe the
merger would have happened, maybe it wouldn't. I don't want to speculate. But as things go, it turned
out to be very good for Michael ...

so
Q. And ...

A. ... because the point of it was to grow the value of the company.

ck
Q. Well, when you mentioned financial pressures, you were not talking about the company, you're
talking about Michael Jackson, correct?

A. Yeah.

lJa
Q. And do you recall ... I'm not looking for amounts ... but the reason behind the financial purposes ...

A. Pressure.

Q. ... the financial pressures?


ae
A. Well, there were the settlements, the law ...you know, the lawsuits. The other thing that contributed
ich
was Neverland was extremely expensive to maintain. It was 2700 acres. At one point the number of
employees there exceeded 100 all on Michael's payroll. They were not tax deductible. It was his
personal residence. And when he stopped working it ... the cash flow then wasn't readily available to
pay all these people so it ... the ... that was part of it, the overhead.
mM

Q. Okay. So, now, this is ... this is post- Chandler allegations. It's ... it's the merger of Sony ATV and
the beginning of the History Tour, correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. Were you able to get a tour sponsor like you did from Pepsi in the Dangerous Tour and the Bad
Tour for the History Tour?
a

A. Not that I recall, no.


Te

Q. And why do you think you couldn't do that?

A. I would have to speculate, but there might have been a local sponsor here and there. But, no, we
w.

weren't able to secure a major sponsor, no.

Q. Do you think that ...


ww

A. Some of it might have been the allegations. And the tour was overseas. It wasn't in the U.S., yeah.
om
Q. And, the tour, was it successful in terms of ticket sales?

A. Yeah. Michael performed at huge stadiums, I mean, all over ... Budapest, Germany, France.

n.c
Q. And do you recall during that time period if there were any endorsement deals, name and likeness
deal, or anything like that?

A. None.

so
Mr. Voth: Objection. Compound.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

ck
A. I don't ... I don't recall there were any.

Q. Did you talk with Michael about creating some type of theme park or destination opportunities for
fans at Neverland?

lJa
A. We researched it actually. We did an extensive research on the possibility, and this happened
several times, of converting Neverland into a Graceland type of attraction and it was deemed
impossible by the legal authorities. It's a two-lane road that goes out to Neverland. It's zoned against it.
ae
And we ... you know, after Michael passed away, Colony Capital technically owns Neverland and is the
managing partner and they tried one more time. And Tom Barrack lives next door to Neverland and it
was not possible to turn Neverland into any sort of public attraction.
ich
Q. Did you talk with Michael about or anyone else about Michael Jackson resorts, theme parks, hotels,
anything like that?

A. I mean, yeah, people would go to Michael on occasion. I think not during the History Tour. We did
have conversations with Prince Alwaleed, a Saudi billionaire, about financing a family entertainment
mM

company, but it wasn't for Michael Jackson resorts or theme parks. It was for Michael's desire to
purchase a company like Marvel or the Casper Company, Harvey Comics, and exploiting them much in
the way that Marvel did. Marvel was down and out at the time. It wasn't so much, though, for Michael.
It was for Michael's ideas for investments. And Alwaleed had purchased Euro Disney at the time, so he
was familiar with the theme park business.

Q. But no deals were being offered for Michael's name and likeness as a ... from a sponsor or for
a

endorsement purposes ...


Te

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.


w.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Were there any offers for the use of Michael's name and likeness for endorsements or things such as
that during that time period?
ww

A. Nothing credible that I recall.


om
Q. By the way, is it unusual for, in your experience, for an entertainer that could draw the audience
Michael did on tour in big stadiums and all that to not have a sponsor?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for speculation.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Overruled. In your experience.

A. Most big tours especially today, in today, but most big tours have a sponsor, yeah.

so
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And, by the way, when you say "today," you are aware that the This Is It Tour, which never
happened, did not have a sponsor, correct?

ck
Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Are you aware ...

Mr Weitzman: ... sorry. Just trying to move it faster. It's my fault.

Judge Holmes: I understand.


ae
Mr. Weitzman:
ich
Q. Are you aware that there was not a tour sponsor for the This Is It Tour that was going to be
performed at the O2 Arena in London?

A. That's my understanding. I was not involved in setting up that tour, but that's my understanding.
mM

Q. Okay. Did you have any offers for theme parks or resorts or hotels overseas during the late 90s
when you were representing Michael?

A. Late 90s, early 2000s, nothing credible. I know there was ...

Q. I mean, when you say something credible, it's twice now I've done that and smiled. What ... what
are you referencing?
a

A. Well, you know, people would come up with ideas and there would be people that could never
Te

execute on the idea. People who were not people of substance. If Prince Alwaleed said, let's do a theme
park, we all take out our pen and pencil and we go, "Let's figure this out." But, pardon the language,
when Joe Blow walks off the street and goes, you should have a theme park. Oh, okay. What do you
say to that? And I do recall there was some idea pitched that the King of Romania or some Eastern
w.

European country was going to give Michael ...

Q. Poland. Poland to be precise.


ww

A. ... Poland ... was it Poland? Maybe both ... was going to give Michael the state castle to turn into a
theme park. I remember Michael called me and I said, "Michael, it's not So, no, it wasn't credible. He
om
sent someone's body guard, someone over, nothing ever happened.

Q. Okay. After the History Tour, what did Michael do next in the music world?

n.c
A. After the History album, which was a brilliant album, he did an album called Invincible, which I
believe was in 2002.

Q. And did he do ... did he do a tour in support of the Invincible album?

so
A. Not that I recall.

Q. The Invincible album, did it have pretty good sales?

ck
A. By any other artist would have considered the sales, you know, fantastic. I think Michael was a
little disappointed. It was a very good album.

Q. Was there a reason why he did not tour to the best of your knowledge?

lJa
A. I don't ... you know, I don't ... I don't recall.

Q. And was it shortly thereafter that you stopped working with Michael?
ae
A. It was a period where there were a number of advisers that would come in and my contact with
Michael steadily diminished after 2002. So, nominally of record, I might have been considered the
music industry attorney, but he would have other people, business advisers, accountants, consultants
ich
who really had his ear. And so it was an inevitable process that at some point I was going to exit.

Q. After the Invincible Tour, did you do any other work that you can recall for Michael before the two
of you parted ways?
mM

A. Well, after the Invincible album, there was no tour.

Q. I mean, album, yeah, sorry.

A. I do think we renegotiated the Sony agreement. I can't remember the exact time. We got him the
opportunity to get out of that deal quickly because he didn't want to be at Sony anymore, so we
addressed certain things like that, yeah.
a

Q. Okay. And ... and did you ... did you during that ... or were you aware during that time period of
Te

Michael having any financial pressures?

A. Well, it's been reported, I'm sure it's been in our court papers, that the ... that the debt ...the debt
went up. I certainly know when the estate began what the debt was, but I wasn't ... I think we helped
w.

secure, you know, guarantees for him on his loans or, yeah. I have a ... don't have a crystal clear
recollection, but I know the financial pressures were mounting.

Q. And were the financial pressures dealt with at least in some part given your experience and
ww

contributions with additional loans secured by some of Michael's assets?


om
Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. Rephrase, Mr. Weitzman.

n.c
Q. How did Michael deal with his personal financial pressures to get money?

A. With loans. Loans kept increasing.

Q. And what were the loans secured with?

so
A. Sony ATV secured one loan, Mijac Music Publishing secured another loan, and Neverland secured
a third loan.

ck
Q. And after the Invincible album was released, did Michael have issues with Sony if you recall?

A. Yes.

lJa
Q. What were the issues and ... I know this is compound, but what were the issues and did you deal
with them?

A. I think Michael was frustrated. I think he felt that Sony wasn't trying as hard to promote his albums
ae
as they had in the past. I also think he felt that Tommy Mottola, who was the chairman of the company,
favored certain other artists like his wife Mariah Carey or Jennifer Lopez or other people on the label.
That I think Michael with the Reverend Sharpton took ... took his grievances public with sort of a rally
in Harlem at one point.
ich

Q. I'm sorry. When you say "rally," were those ... were those the public appearances that were made?

A. There was ... yeah. There was a public get- together, I believe in Harlem, where Michael spoke up
about his grievances with Sony and Tommy Mottola.
mM

Q. And do you remember the year? Just, you know, I don't need date.

A. 2002, I believe. I'm not positive.

Q. And you still continued to represent him ...


a

A. Less ...
Te

Q. ... at least through that year?

A. ... less ... less and less. I recall a meeting that Johnnie Cochran and I had with him with Reverend
Sharpton where we tried to counsel him not to go public, to let Johnnie handle it privately and let me
w.

handle it. But Michael was so incensed with Sony, so Johnnie and I left and went back to California.
And next day we saw on the news that Michael had gone public. And he ... and he was passionate, he
was emotional. I mean, if you're an artist, you know, we're used to ... I'm used to as a lawyer
representing an artist and it's not my ... you know, it's when you're the artist it's you that's on the line.
ww

And so I can absolutely empathize with Michael or any other artist that feels like they've been treated
unfairly because it does happen.
om
Q. And was there a rift between Tommy ... Tommy Mottola and Michael?

A. At that point there was, yeah.

n.c
Q. Do you know if they ever reconciled their differences?

A. I don't think so.

so
Q. All right.

A. Of course, Tommy was ... was let go a little while later so it became a new Sony.

ck
Q. Got it. That wasn't ... you didn't do that, did you?

A. No.

lJa
Q. Just kidding. No.

A. Had nothing to do with it. ae


Q. Okay. Who came into ... who took Tommy Mottola's place at Sony, if you know?

A. You know what, for some reason I'm blanking on this. I mean, Doug Morris came in at one point
and now Rob Stringer. But, in between, there was Andy Lack. There was a German guy Dornemann,
ich
Michael Dornemann. I mean, there were a number of people after the Sony BMG merger. But in ... for
some reason, I don't remember who the immediate successor to Tommy was. I think it might have been
Andy Lack who came over from the network.

Q. And did your dealings stop with ... when did your dealing stop with Michael during that period?
mM

A. They diminished. It wasn't like they went from here to there. They just kind of went down sort of
like a ski slope. And then, ultimately, what happened was Michael had a number of advisors ... a
Korean gentleman named Myung Ho-Lee; two gentlemen from Germany, Dieter and Ronald; a woman
named Raymore Bain; another woman whose name I can't remember, and others. And what ended up
happening ... and the Prince from Bahrain. There were differnet people advising him. So, at some point,
he was going to refinance his loan so they wanted to buy out my carried interest in the publishing
a

company, which they did and I stopped representing him.


Te

Q. So prior to the buyout you reference and all that do you recall any additional molestation
allegations against Michael surfacing in the mid- 2003?

A. Sure. There was ...


w.

Q. 2000 ...

A. Yeah. There was a trial up in Santa Barbara, yeah.


ww

Q. Okay. You weren't involved in any of that, were you?


om
A. No.

Q. Did you ever talk to Michael about it?

n.c
A. No. I had one very, very, very brief conversation during the trial where he and Ran- ...
Randy ... his brother Randy called me and put Michael on for a second.

so
******Foot note, didnt Branca say on page 3 he DID NOT SPEAK TO MJ!

Q: In fact, you were pretty much out of it by the beginning of 2003.

ck
A: I don't know if I was out of it, but my contact was primarily with people representing Mr.
Jackson, rather than directly with him. **

Q. When's the next time you heard from or worked with Michael Jackson?

lJa
A. Eight days before he ultimately passed away in 2009. I'd had a couple of meetings with Frank
DiLeo who Michael had brought back as his manager. Randy ... had a couple conversations with Randy
Phillips who was promoting the concert. And Frank said that he wanted to set up a meeting for me to
ae
come see Michael, but he said, "Michael said don't just come in here. Come in here with some ideas
that we can discuss and put together something so we" ... so I put together this agenda of possible ideas
for the future. And I met with him at where he was rehearsing at the Forum eight days before he passed
away.
ich

Q. Now, before that meeting and when you talked to Frank DiLeo, at about that time do you know if
Michael had a manager? And, if so, who?

A. Well, before DiLeo there was a gentleman, I don't know if I would call him a manager, named Mr.
mM

Tohme. He refers to himself as Dr. Tohme, but I don't believe he's a doctor.

Q. And did you ever meet with Mr. Tohme?

A. I was at the Clive Davis pre-Grammy party one night and Randy Phillips introduced me to Mr.
Tohme.
a

Q. Okay. So did you go to the meeting with Michael with an agenda or a list?
Te

A. Yes, I did.

Mr Weitzman: Could you publish 26. Has this been marked or no? I'm told this has been marked for
identification, Your Honor.
w.

Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman:
ww

Q. Mr. Branca, is Exhibit 26 on your monitor ...on the monitor in front of you. Is that the ... would you
om
rather see a printed copy?

A. No. I've seen it, yeah. No. That's ... that is it. There might have been a second page. I can't recall.

n.c
Q. Well, there is a second page. That's only the first one. Can you put them side by side?

A. Okay.

Q. All right. So this is the agenda or list actually we already mentioned this morning in opening

so
statement that you brought to Mr. Jackson, correct?

A. Correct.

ck
Q. Okay. So can you and I go through this agenda starting at the top where it says No. 1, Importance of
Team?

A. Sure.

lJa
Q. Could you tell us what that references?

A. Oh, I don't ... there it is. Which section?

Q. Importance of teams is number one.


ae
A. Oh, well, it's important to have a very, very good team, management team, accounting team, agency
ich
in order to help maximize opportunities that might come along.

Q. And so did you and he discuss maybe for a second who the team might consist of?

A. Yeah. And it was not a long meeting, but we discussed the fact that Frank DiLeo was his manager
mM

and Michael Kane was his accountant, Randy Phillips was the promoter, and then he wanted me ... Joel
Katz was one of his attorneys, and he wanted me back on as the music attorney ... music industry
attorney.

Q. Okay. Under 2 it says Films, Plays, and Attractions. Did you have any discussion about those items
if you recall?
a

A. Not ... not specifically. I just wanted to come up with ideas, possibilities to think about. Michael
always liked to dream. And I don't mean that in the sense that dream that it doesn't come true, but
Te

dream like what's possible. So I wanted to ... I mean, obviously it would have been impossible to do all
of these things. I'm not sure if it would have been possible. I mean, first of all, we couldn't do anything
with Thriller without Rod Temperton's permission, so you have that issue.
w.

Q. So like Thriller film, Thriller Broadway play, possible Thriller album, you'd need Rod Temperton
for any of that, correct?

A. Yeah. We could not have done any of that ...


ww

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.


om
A. ... without

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. A is Thriller film; B is Thriller Broadway play; C is possible film about Thriller album; E is

so
Thriller haunted house attraction; G, Thriller live album under 2. Could you do any of those without
getting certain rights?

A. No.

ck
Q. What rights would you have to get?

A. Well, Rod Temperton owned the composition Thriller so to do a film or a Broadway play or a DVD

lJa
or to use the song in a haunted house attraction, we would have had to get ... get his permission.

Q. By the way, none of these deal with name and likeness, do they?
ae
Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


ich
Mr. Voth: Calls for a legal conclusion.

A. Neverland Museum ...

Judge Holmes: Wait.


mM

A. Oh, I'm sorry.

Judge Holmes: That's overruled, too.

Mr Weitzman: You want me to ask a different question perhaps, Your Honor?


a

Judge Holmes: Well, do any of the rights that would be ... that would needed to be acquired for
production of the parts of Paragraph 2 that Mr. Weitzman mentioned, would you have to negotiate or
Te

would you feel you had to negotiate rather a name and likeness license?

Mr Weitzman: Please answer the judge's question.


w.

A. So, yes, Your Honor. Well, I'm not a right of publicity expert, so I always rely on the people who are
the experts; however ...

Judge Holmes: Wait. Okay. So you negotiated such deals on behalf of Michael Jackson, correct?
ww

A. Certain deals, yeah.


om
Judge Holmes: How would you decide whether for a particular deal you would need a name and
likeness or right of publicity license?

n.c
A. Because Michael owned his own name and likeness. We never had to go outside.

Judge Holmes: Fair enough.

A. You know, so looking at these things, a Thriller film that took the storyline or the Thriller video, no,

so
no name and likeness. Thriller Broadway play, it depends what it ... again, I defer to a name and
likeness attorney. But it would seem like maybe F would potentially require, but, again, I would defer
to a right of publicity attorney.

ck
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. So F being the Neverland ...

A. Because you're asking a theoretical question.

lJa
Q. Correct.

A. Since Michael owns the bundle of rights, we would never have to go outside.
ae
Q. So, next, you have Recorded Music Catalog. Did you talk to Michael about any of the items under
Recording Music Catalog?
ich
A. Again, the meeting was brief. It was more to reunite and go forward, so we did not discuss
specifically much of this.

Q. But that ... let's start from the bottom up on this list. Live LP and DVD of concert. Were you
referring to the ... what were you referring to?
mM

A. With Michael it would have had ... if he would ever have allowed a concert film, it would have
required a multicamera shoot, eight/ten cameras, high def, with a major director of the ... Martin
Scorsese, as an example. And it would have been very, very, very ambitious, yeah.

Q. And a duets LP, what was that kind of stuff?


a

A. It was an ...
Te

Q. Only because you wrote it down here.

A. It was just an idea. I was trying to be creative that, you know, Michael always, you know, studied
the charts and, you know, who he felt was talented. So as an idea ... and, you know, as artists get older,
w.

you see it today radio won't play them. So it was an idea both to pair Michael with some of the people
that he felt was talented as well as, you know, potentially somebody on the radio.

Q. By the way, when you reference DVD of concert, what are you ... what does that mean DVD of
ww

concert?
om
A. Well, that would be a concert ... in effect, a concert film that would have required, by Michael's
standards, a multicamera shoot with a director like somebody like Martin Scorsese.

Q. But ...

n.c
A. But it would have been a DVD.

Q. But would that have been a ... like for my phrase ... a real concert? In other words ...

so
A. Yes.

Q. ... the performance taking place in front of a large audience?

ck
A. Of course, absolutely.

Q. And had Michael done that before?

lJa
A. We ... we had done some TV programs, the Budapest show, but it wasn't generally something he
would do.

Q. And to the best of your knowledge, by the way, was Michael working on a duet album?

A. No. Not at all.


ae
Q. All right. And, of course, rerelease special Off the Wall package. What does that refer to?
ich

A. Well, Off the Wall is a seminal album of great significance so as an idea to ... you know, Michael
had done Thriller 25 so potentially do an Off the Wall package.

Q. And the same with respect to the re-release of the DVD of The Making of Thriller or re-releasing
mM

something that had already been released at another time?

A. It was something that we did in 1983. It hasn't been in circulation or seen since. Interestingly, you
know, when you're coming up with ideas, there's a lot of due diligence and work that goes into
executing any idea. So I happened to look at The Making of Thriller not too long ago and I don't think
Michael would have approved it since it's a little dated at this point. It's 1983. Not to say it's not good,
but when we're trying to create, you know, a Michael Jackson, you don't want to do the narrow things
a

that will capture a couple people. You want to ... and that's how Michael was. So any of these ideas
would have required a lot of diligence and execution.
Te

Q. Same thing with respect to D, get back Sony masters immediately, establish MJJ Records to do
direct licensing to Apple, Walma ... Walmart, foreign distributors.
w.

A. The idea there was ... and, again, it was an idea ... is in the day and age where you can sell music
directly to consumers. You can sell it on Apple, Walmart, why have a middle man called the record
company that's going to take out at least half of the revenue. Maybe we get the masters back, that
doesn't mean we could have, and we do direct deals with Walmart, et cetera.
ww

Q. Okay. So now Item 4 says: Repurchase, restructure of Sony ATV. What did you have in mind when
om
you put that?

A. That might have been a little pie in the sky, but ...

n.c
Q. What do you mean?

A. It would have been wonderful to have been able to take back Sony ATV from Sony or at least the
ATV part of Sony. Don't believe Sony would ever do it, but you never know until you try just as ... and
I'm sure we're going to talk about it at some point ...when Sony exercised the buy/sell last year we

so
really explored the idea of how do we buy Sony out. Sometimes ideas are great ideas, but they're not
feasible in the execution or the cost is too high.

Q. Okay. Tour issues. Was this referring to the upcoming tour or tours in general?

ck
A. No. This was all about This is It. Michael and Frank felt that AEG's take was too high and that I
needed to go in and change it. So I certainly put that on the agenda.

lJa
Q. Okay. By the way, did you talk with Michael at all about releasing music, unreleased songs that he
had?

A. He would never do that.

Q. Why do you say that?


ae
A. Michael's a perfectionist. And no artist would say, you know, because if they're unreleased there's
ich
usually a reason. The best example I can give is we all know Prince passed away. How many people
know that the Prince estate actually put out a full album of unreleased Prince material last December?
Have you ever heard of it?

Q. No.
mM

A. I heard it sold 10 or 20,000 copies. Now, I'm not saying ... that's Prince. That's not my problem. But
you don't want to put out unreleased material without finishing it, which means you have to hire a
Timberland, you have to hire a Justin Timberlake, you have to hire people to bring them up to the
current standards; otherwise, you're asking to get hit.

Q. Did you do ... during your conversation with him, were you aware if he was working on any new
a

material or recordings?
Te

A. I had heard rumors. You know, you read things in the tabloids, but you never know what's true.

Q. And you didn't discuss it with Michael?


w.

A. Now, I can't remember if Frank and I discussed it, but given the fact that he was going to do these
This is It shows, he would have been exhausted. I mean, Michael was quite an entertainer so not that
easy to go out on stage three times a week and then have the energy left over to then want to run into
the studio. But, no, I'm not aware of it.
ww

Q. Okay. And then after you had ... by the way, was anybody with you when you met with Michael?
om
A. Yes.

Q. Who else was there?

n.c
A. Frank DiLeo, Michael Kane, and Randy Phillips.

Q. And where did the meeting take place at?

so
A. It was in Michael's dressing room at the Forum.

Q. At the Forum. And did they ...

ck
A. Back stage.

Q. So not at Staples Center, but at the Forum?

lJa
A. At the Forum, yeah.

Q. And then after you had that meeting with Michael, what did you do next, if anything, with Michael
before Michael ...
ae
A. I actually went on vacation to Mexico. It was a scheduled vacation.

Q. And when ...


ich

A. And then when I came ...

Q. ... did you next hear from or about Michael?


mM

A. I got a call that he was ... he'd passed away.

Q. When you were in Mexico?

A. Yeah.

Mr Weitzman: Your Honor, we've been at it for about an hour and a half. Could we have a break?
a

Judge Holmes: A break?


Te

Mr Weitzman: I mean, it just it feels like it was only ten minutes.

Judge Holmes: That would be fine. Come get me when they're ready, Ms. Wood.
w.

Court Clerk: All rise recess

Judge Holmes: Do we have a witness?


ww

Mr Weitzman: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Branca.


om
Judge Holmes: Oh, yes. It's a crowded courtroom. I know.

Mr.Branca: It's tough to get by the lawyers.

n.c
Judge Holmes: There's a clear shot to the witness stand now. Good. All right. Mr. Branca, Mr.
Weitzman, the floor is still yours. Go ahead.

Mr Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

so
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Mr. Branca, the agenda list that you brought to the Michael Jackson meeting ... I use the word
agenda. I don't know what word you use, but I'm talking about that list of things that you brought to the

ck
... a meeting with Michael Jackson. Were those possible projects that require ...well, let me ask it
differently rather than put words in your mouth. So I don't like to do that unless I can get away with it.
How would these projects have been implemented with Michael?

lJa
A. Well, many of them ... certainly some of them required a successful run of concerts in England.
Certainly things like Pay Per View and some of the films. I mean, some of these projects to execute
would be very expensive, so you'd really want to have a successful tour, you know, a successful run of
This Is It shows. You wouldn't want ... I mean, there was some speculation or concern that could
ae
Michael finish the 50 shows and all that. You know, if he went out and did five and canceled it, that
wouldn't have helped. You really needed some accelerant in this.

Q. You mean it wouldn't have helped to push these potential projects forward?
ich

A. Correct.

Q. And ...
mM

A. Some ... I mean, some of them like doing a commemorative anniversary addition of Off the Wall
you can do no matter what, but the level of success to some degree is going to be tied to the success of
the shows.

Q. So what ... was it your thought that this list was kind of contingent upon Mr. Jackson doing well
and completing the This Is It Tour?
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. Okay. So at the time you met with Michael and during this preparation for the This is It show, was
it your opinion that Michael Jackson had already made his comeback?

A. No. Of course not.


w.

Q. So why do you say "of course not"?

A. He had ... I mean, the fact ... the fact is that the shows were successful in the sense that they sold
ww

out, which is fantastic. People obviously in Europe wanted to see Michael render his personal services
in concert. And Europe has always been a little more forgiving than America. But, at the same time, it's
om
not easy to do 50 shows in any period. I mean, there was a lot of speculation by Michael's family that
perhaps AEG pushed him too hard. That he would not have been able to complete these shows. So to
put them on sale and sell is one thing, to execute is another.

n.c
Q. So between the release of the Invincible record and the buildup to the tour at the O2 Arena in
London, would it be fair to say that Michael had not performed during that period?

A. Correct.

so
Q. And was the idea, as you understood it, that this O2 tour was going to be the beginning of Michael
Jackson's comeback?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.

ck
Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:

lJa
Q. What did you believe ... see if I can ask this without ... it's like a test for me, right?

Judge Holmes: Post-graduate. ae


Mr Weitzman: Got it.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. What did you think the impact of Michael Jackson ultimately going out on tour at the O2 Arena
ich
would be to his career?

A. It could be very helpful at the least in reestablishing him as a live attraction, live concert attraction.
One would hope that if it were that good that it would help overcome some of the tabloid stuff about
Michael because the truth is, you know, people came to know Michael, unfortunately, you know,
mM

through the tabloids. And so just as we tried ... which we wanted to do with This Is It, Michael could
have done with these concerts, which would have been to overcome all the tabloid reputation.

Q. You mean basically like a rebranding or ... I don't want to get overly dramatic ... but like a
resurrection?

A. Correct.
a

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.


Te

Mr Weitzman: But I summed that up pretty good.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


w.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Okay. Is it correct that did Mr. Jackson release any records or albums between the Invincible album
in 2001/2002 until the day he died?
ww

A. No. I don't think he did not release any albums.


om
Q. Were there some re-releases during that eight-plus year period of albums that he had ... or music he
had already released or recorded?

n.c
A. Yeah. There was a version of Thriller called Thriller 25 where contemporary artists and producers
did versions of the songs.

Q. And when you ... when you decided to come back to work for ... actually, let me ask a different
question. You'd been out of Michael's life for three, four years. Why did you agree to meet with him

so
and come back into his life?

A. Well, actually, ineffectively, it had been longer than that. Look, as I mentioned earlier, Michael was
very, very good to me. I feel like I was good to him, as well, for him. There's no way I wouldn't have

ck
come back to help him. There's no way. You know somebody at that point for 29 years. I absolutely
would have come back especially because he brought back Frank DiLeo. Would I have come back to
work with Mr. Tohme? No. Because it would have been impossible to do anything. But, as I said,
Michael was very good to me. I was good to him. John McClain and I talk about this. John went to high

lJa
school with Michael. We loved him. So, of course there's no way if I get a call from Michael Jackson
I'm not going back to help him.

Q. And when you say "going back to help him," what did that mean to you?

A. Any ...
ae
Q. Not to you, personally, but what did that mean in terms of what you were going to do?
ich

A. Anything I could do to contribute to him. If there are any opportunity ... a business opportunity to
help execute it, help exploit it, renegotiate the AEG deal get their percentage down, just different
things, different ideas as we did, you know, in the 80s.
mM

Q. And at the time you decided to go back and work with Michael, how did you perceive his career at
that point in his life?

A. Well, I think the fact that he was willing to do these shows was a great sign because he pretty much
had been dormant for years. He really hadn't worked. Even on the Invincible album, he didn't really
work that hard at it for whatever personal reasons. I remember there was a ... there was a video from
the album for the first single. For some reason I'm blanking on the name up tempo, he didn't show up
a

for the video. They ended up using a body double on the feet. And that's not Michael. So there was a
long period of time where I don't really think he felt as invested. So the fact that he was willing to do
Te

50 shows was at least a sign that he might want to reinvigorate his career.

Q. Was it your understanding Michael was not ...wasn't working because he didn't want to for that six,
seven, eight-year period?
w.

A. You know, I wouldn't want to speculate. I mean, it happens in careers where Michael reached the
summit, the top. And, Invincible, I think, was disappointing to him the fact that his friends in
Hollywood did not want to work with him, the fact that Pepsi wouldn't come back, things weren't
ww

selling. It's not a great feeling. I would also say, and I'm only speculating, Michael was a very good
father, so I'm sure there was a part of him that wanted to devote time to his kids, as well.
om
Q. And were you still representing him after the trial in Santa Maria in Santa Barbara County ended?

A. Not really, no.

n.c
Q. Were you aware that he'd left Santa Barbara and went to live elsewhere with his kids?

A. I believe he was in Ireland for a little 156 while and Bahrain and Las Vegas.

so
Q. Do you know if he ever went back to live at Neverland?

A. I don't believe he did.

ck
Q. Do you know why?

A. I don't think he had good memories there.

lJa
Q. Were you told that by him or anybody else?

A. I ... ae
Mr. Voth: Objection. Hearsay.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


ich
A. I heard him mention that. You know, I heard his brother say that. You know, I've heard a couple say
that.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Okay. At the time Michael passed away, were you aware ...
mM

Mr Weitzman: ... I'm sorry. Strike that, Your Honor. I want to take a step back.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. At the time you met with Michael, which was eight days before he passed ... I think you met with
him on June 17th; is that correct?
a

A. I believe so.
Te

Q. He passed away on the 25th, correct ...

A. Correct.
w.

Q. ... of June 2009? Were you aware when you met with him if he had any endorsement deals, sponsor
deals, name and likeness deals?

A. I wasn't aware of any, no.


ww

Q. Okay.
om
A. I think there was ... I came to later understand there was a tour merchandise deal that related to
selling stuff on the tour.

n.c
Q. Okay. But ...

A. But at ... no. At the time I met with him, no.

Q. Let me ask this question ...

so
A. Okay.

Q. ... because I want to distinguish the two. Tour merchandise is a different project than a general

ck
merchandise endorsement deal, correct?

A. Correct.

lJa
Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.

Judge Holmes: No, it isn't ... overruled. Is it or isn't it?


ae
A. It is. It is different.
Q. And could you explain to us the differences with a tour merchandise deal and other kind of general
merchandise endorsement deals.
ich
A. Tour merchandise is primarily sold at concerts or, you know, Broadway shows, but at concerts when
you go. And it usually has the artwork from the tour. Not always. And it's basically a souvenir. People
go and they're excited and they love the show, so they want to buy something for themselves or their
kids. That's tour merchandise.
mM

Q. General merchandise ...

A. General ...

Q. ... deals are what?

A. General merchandise is merchandise that's sold in retail stores, nowadays, you know, over the
a

Internet you can buy it on Amazon or whatever. It's a different method of distributing and selling the
merchandise and often the artwork is different, although it doesn't have to be. But tour merchandise is
Te

created to be sold at the tours. Sometimes it's an after-market sale. General merchandise is created to be
sold at retail stores.

Q. At tour venues you have kind of a captive audience, right?


w.

A. Yes, you do.

Q. And general merchandise deals are basically out there for the public as they pick and choose to
ww

buy, correct?
om
A. Yeah.

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading.

n.c
Judge Holmes: That one's sustained. You can rephrase it I'm sure, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. When you learned of Michael's death, you told us you were on holiday, correct?

so
A. Correct.

Q. And did you come home shortly thereafter?

ck
A. A couple days later, a day or two later.

Q. And did you ... did you learn or did you look for a will or trust that you had in your possession as
Michael's lawyer?

lJa
A. I instructed my ...

Q. Former lawyer.
ae
A. I instructed my office to see if we had any wills in our possession and, if so, to file them with the
probate court.
ich
Q. And did it turn out there was a will in your firm's possession?

A. Yes.

Q. And were there certain responsibilities the will spelled out for you and others?
mM

A. Yes. It appointed John McClain and I as co-executors and co-trustees.

Q. So did you ... did you inform the family of that fact? The family being the Jackson family.

A. Yes, I did when we ... when we went out ... I went out, I think Joel Katz came with me, went to
Jermaine Jackson's house where a number of Michael's brothers and sisters and his mother were
a

gathered and we told them of the existence of the will. We explained what the will said, but we didn't
know if that would be the final will because there was a period from 2002 until Michael passed away in
Te

2009 where he had high-level corporate attorneys, he had managers, he had business managers who
might well have drafted a subsequent will. But we at least wanted to inform them this was the will that
we have, 2002.
w.

Q. And did anybody at that meeting challenge you or say anything counterproductive or negative to
your informing of the will and what some of the terms and conditions were?

A. Well, they were pleasant face to face, but it turned out simultaneously while we were showing them
ww

a copy of the will that was filed in court one of the other siblings was in court with an attorney saying
the court should not believe any will that was turned in and basically saying Michael Jackson died
om
intestate. Even though it turned out there were three ... our office drafted three wills ... '95, '97, 2002 ...
all of which had the same distributive provisions, but each one reflected the birth of a child or a divorce
or whatever.

n.c
Q. And after you got that news, you had already engaged probate counsel, hadn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that would be Ms. Cohen and Mr. Hoffman?

so
A. Correct.

Q. And then after you had that news did you call another lawyer to help get involved?

ck
A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that would be me?

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And then what happened next with the ... with the probate proceedings, if you recall?
ae
A. Well, again, there was some ... it was not 100 percent certainty that this was the final will, but we
felt like we had to act quickly. I mean, we could always ... so we assembled the so-called team. We
tried to keep involved the people that Michael had on his team. We had Frank DiLeo, we had Michael
ich
Kane who was his accountant, we had Randy Phillips, we all got together with you and Paul Hoffman
and Joel Katz who had been Michael's corporate attorney ...

Q. Jeryll.
mM

A. ... Jeryll, Jeryll Cohen, and to try to come up with a game plan of what are we going to do.

Q. Now, did we meet at an office or in a restaurant, if you recall?

A. We met upstairs at MR CHOW's restaurant in Beverly Hills.

Q. And if you recall, in general fashion what was the discussion about?
a

A. Generally speaking, how do we stop foreclosure on all of the assets, is there any way, you know,
Te

basically at that moment in time to salvage this so the estate is not bankrupt. I mean, that's all. It was a
pretty dire situation.

Q. And at the time of that meeting did we discuss merchandise endorsements or name and likeness
w.

deals?

A. God, no.
ww

Q. Did we discuss plans for a movie?


om
A. Of course not. That would be absurd.

Q. And did we discuss plans for a show combining our music with Cirque Du Soleil?

n.c
A. No.

Q. Did we discuss rehearsal footage that had been filmed during the course of the This Is It Tour?

A. No. I was not aware of it at that time.

so
Q. By the way, when you met with Michael Jackson ... because we heard this this morning. When you
met with Michael Jackson, did you discuss the use of the rehearsal footage that ultimately became This
Is It when you had that meeting with him?

ck
A. If I did that he would have fired me on the spot.

Q. Why?

lJa
A. Michael would never allow rehearsal footage out. In fact, when we subsequently learned there was
rehearsal footage and we decided, okay, let's take a look at it we said the good news was, we said, this
is the Michael Jackson we know and love. This man, artistic genius, perfectionist. So we said maybe
ae
we can have a TV show, maybe there's something we can do with this. Subsequently, we got some
interest from studios and we went into court and the Jackson family brought an injunction to stop us
from making a film deal and stop ... to stop us from using the footage saying Michael would never have
allowed this to be used. And I'll never forget, you know, John McClain, my co-executor and bas- ... we
ich
all agreed, of course, of course he would never allow it to be used, but he's not here. And unless
everybody ... pardon the language ... calms down, you're going to lose the house that Mrs. Jackson's
staying in because the utilities were being turned off and there was a quit notice, the bank was
foreclosing on it. There was a loan on Mijac with a 16 percent interest rate. There was a loan on Sony
ATV. The interest rate was about 8 or 9 percent, which would have been about 24 to $27 million a year
mM

in interest payments alone. The payments on Mijac would have been 13 million alone interest only.
Everything was going down. So if that estate had been insolvent at that time, John McClain and I could
have ... if we smoked pipes, we could have smoked a pipe. But we could have laid back and go, is this a
great artistic, do we want to do ... and the answer was we didn't have a choice. In order to have a
chance to salvage the solvency of the estate, we had to put out This Is It. Now, the truth is what's great
about This Is It it's not John McClain or I, God knows, it's the fact that Michael Jackson, the
entertainer, when you see him step on stage, when you see him tell the dancers how to dance and piano
a

player how to play the piano, that's Michael Jackson.


Te

Q. So, as you know, we're in court dealing with various legal issues which you're aware of. At the time
of Michael's death, you were in Mexico, correct?

A. Cabo San Lucas.


w.

Q. Cabo Sans, I think that's in Mexico.

A. Yes.
ww

Q. I think, okay. And then ... and then you came back and we had this meeting and which was, I think,
om
six days after Michael died. Was there any discussion at that meeting we had all of the lawyers and
Randy and ... Phillips and Michael Kane of any projects that any of us had in mind that we could do for
the Estate of Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. The only thing I recall was Randy Phillips said, "Maybe we could sell the tickets for the show."

Q. Yes.

A. Not that that would have salvaged the ... but it was something.

so
Q. You mean the tickets that had been printed for the O2 concern in London?

A. Yes. That never happened.

ck
Q. Well, actually they hadn't been printed, had they?

A. Some had been ... I believe some had been printed, but he ... or he said he could print them. It was

lJa
like some of an idea we'll sell these tickets for the show that never happened.

Q. And after the dinner, I believe it was on a Wednesday night, when did you learn of the footage, the
rehearsal footage, for the first time?
ae
A. I don't recall the exact date. I believe Randy Phillips called me up and, look, we have this footage.
We should take a look at it.
ich
Q. And do you remember the memorial ...

A. Yes.

Q. ... for Michael? Do you remember the date that took place?
mM

A. No, I don't.

Q. If I told you it was July 7th, would that refresh your memory?

A. I think it would.
a

Q. And where was that memorial at?


Te

A. That was at the Staples Center.

Q. And were we involved, we being the estate, in the production of that memorial?
w.

A. No.

Q. Okay. So you learned from Randy Phillips about the ... about the footage. What happened next with
regards to the making ... ultimately making of This Is It?
ww

A. Well, I think Randy looked at the footage. Kenny Ortega looked at the footage. I'm not sure if John
om
McClain looked at it or if he had his friend Denzel Washington go down and look at it, but several
people looked at the footage and said, you know, it's possible. So they asked me. I went down and
looked at the footage. When I saw Michael, even if it was a handheld camera, it wasn't as Michael
would have done it, you know, eight cameras and overhead shots and I just seeing Michael, you know,

n.c
perform, you know, it was magic. So, all right, let's see if we could put it together. Let's see if there's
enough here.

Q. And who owned the footage at that time?

so
A. It was in the possession of AEG. And I suppose one could have a legal debate whether they owned
it or we owned it, but in order to resolve that legal debate we could have spent a few years in court. But
we ended up coming to a settlement. It was very, very, very difficult, very protracted, difficult
negotiation.

ck
Q. And a bit contentious, would you agree?

A. Excuse me?

lJa
Q. A bit contentious, wouldn't you agree?

A. Very contentious.
ae
Q. Okay. But ultimately the dispute between AEG and the estate got resolved; is that correct?

A. Yes.
ich

Q. And what did you all do in regards to creating the film?

A. Well, we had Kenny Ortega, who's a director, noted director, go in with his film editing team and
start trying ... reviewing all the footage, trying to edit it. We had to hire music people because
mM

sometimes the audio was inaudible, you know, so we needed to enhance the audio with master
recordings. We had to go get licenses from Rod Temperton and others for the songs. We made a
distribution deal with Sony Pictures.

Q. Okay. Now, let me stop you for a moment. So this rehearsal footage it ... can you kind of describe
it for His Honor what it was?
a

A. They were handheld video cameras. And what Michael would do he would videotape a lot of things
in his life, but he would have them, you know, videotape all parts of the footage so he could review
Te

what were the dancers doing, what am I doing so he could go home at night and try to study it to see if
there's any imperfections or anything he wanted to change. It was always intended for his personal use.
Never for public consumption.
w.

Q. And so when you were viewing ... were you one of the people that viewed the video?

A. I did. But, quite frankly, I really relied on Kenny Ortega. He's a film director.
ww

Q. And this was not a hi-def quality film; is that correct?


om
A. No. Not at all. It was something where if you took your iPhone or your ... the old VHS camera and
you followed somebody around, that's what it would be.

Q. All right. And was the film enhanced with other elements ... video elements?

n.c
A. Yeah.

Q. What was ... if you recall, what was it enhanced with?

so
A. There were interviews. You know, Kenny talked a little bit, there was some footage from the
memorial, different things like that.

Q. And were there interviews that had been done with different cameras at different times with

ck
performers or some of the other people that were involved in the tour?

A. Yeah. There were interviews with some of the dancers, you know, when they were auditioning for
the role, you know, to be in the tour.

lJa
Q. That video ... was that video part of the handheld or was that separate ... a separate video ...

A. I don't ...

Q. ... if you know?


ae
A. ... I don't recall.
ich

Q. And what was the quality of the sound on that video with respect to the music?

A. It was challenging because, again, you did not have high-end high-tech audio equipment like
Michael would normally have if he was recording live, so it had to be enhanced. We had to go to Sony
mM

to get the masters and have somebody work on the sound for the song and plug in the masters at
various points.

Q. Okay. So let me just ask: When you say "challenging," that means not very good and we had to
enhance sound ...

A. To put it another way, we ...


a

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.


Te

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

Q. When you say "challenging," what did you mean?

A. What do I ... what I mean is we could not have put that out with the audio as it existed. Would be
impossible. There'd be long gaps, silences, you'd be watching video with no sound.
ww

Q. Okay. And when you say you had to go to Sony, why is it you had to go to Sony?
om
A. Because they still had distribution rights to the masters, so we had to ... we had to get their
agreement to use the masters to put in the film.

n.c
Q. But were those masters you owned?

A. Owned, but they would want to be paid for the use. They weren't going to give them for free. They
wanted to be cut in on.

so
Q. So just by way of explanation, even though you owned your masters, how did Sony have that type
of control over how the distribution use of the masters?

A. Well, as I mentioned, they had advanced us a lot of money that they wanted to earn back. So if there

ck
was a use ... if we ... if there's a master in a commercial, they would get their cut, if there was a master
in a movie, they would get their cut. So using a recording in this movie they wanted to get their cut just
as the music publishers would want to get their cut.

lJa
Q. So the ... and AEG was involved in this process as well, right?

A. Correct. ae
Q. Do you recall in the negotiations with AEG what their ... what their first offer was on split of
profits?

A. I don't recall, but knowing AEG it probably wasn't very favorable to the estate.
ich

Q. And ultimately how did that split end up?

A. I believe it was 90/10 in our favor.


mM

Q. But that was part of the contentious ...

A. Yes.

Q. ... negotiations?

A. And one of the things we had to allow them to do they wanted to do a Michael Jackson museum
a

exhibit in London and Tokyo. We didn't really want it, but we agreed to do it. Really didn't make any
money from it. That was a little disappointing.
Te

Q. Was there a dispute with AEG about money that Michael and now the Estate of Michael Jackson
owed AEG?
w.

A. Yes. They had advanced him close to $40 million, so obviously we wanted to audit that because we
didn't want that money ... in order to get access to the tapes we had to make sure they got that paid
back, but we didn't want to take their word for it so we did an audit of their expenses.
ww

Q. And in the course of the negotiation, did the estate work out a method in which AEG would get
paid?
om
A. Yes. When we did the distribution deal with Sony they got repaid. And then on the upside over and
above that, I believe it was 90/10 or 85/15, I can't remember.

n.c
Q. And the film ultimately ended up being distributed by Sony?

A. Correct. And we put out a soundtrack album.

Q. And we put, you put out a soundtrack album. By the way, was AEG a secured creditor or unsecured

so
creditor?

A. I don't recall. Probably secured. I mean, well, let's put it this way, they had possession of the tapes.

ck
Q. And is it ... is it your recollection that part of the negotiation was them turning over possession of
the tape to the estate?

A. Correct.

lJa
Q. Was the song "Thriller" used in This Is It?

A. Yes, it was.
ae
Q. And was the ... and when I say used, when the rehearsals were filmed, it was Michael Jackson and
the dancers and the band rehearsing presentation of various songs, correct?
ich
A. Yeah.

Q. "Thriller" being one of the songs, why did it require or why was it an issue to get the rights to
"Thriller" to use in the film?
mM

A. The song was written by ...

Mr. Voth: Assumes facts not in evidence.

Judge Holmes: Lay a foundation.

Mr. Weitzman:
a

Q. Were there any issues with getting "Thriller" in the ... in the film ... to be used in the film?
Te

A. Big issues. "Thriller" was written by Rod Temperton and he owned the music publishing of the
song, so we could not use it without his permission. The same is true of the song "Man in the Mirror".
Not owned by Rod Temperton, but owned by Glen Ballard.
w.

Q. So what was done to resolve that issue?

A. We had to negotiate with Mr. Temperton. It was incredibly difficult. He charged an unreasonable
amount of money, but we felt we couldn't put this out without "Thriller" in it.
ww

Q. And why did you believe you couldn't put it out without "Thriller" being in the film?
om
A. Two reasons. It's one of Michael's biggest songs and the Thriller video was, you know, perhaps
the ... or, in my opinion, it's certainly the most important music video of all time. And the visuals of
Thriller with the werewolves dancing, I mean, everybody wants to see that.

n.c
Q. All right. Now, just getting off the film for a moment, after Michael died we have our meetings and
get in our court disputes. What hap- ... what is happening with the sales of his catalog or the sales of
music that he recorded?

so
A. Well, I would say the explosion of the sales of the recorded music catalog was unbelievable. I
mean, we were ... I mean, pleasantly surprised would be an understatement. Shocked at the level of
interest in the music.

ck
Q. And you'd seen other performers die and observe the sale of their catalogs, correct?

A. Correct.

lJa
Q. And do sales of artists post-death sometimes increase for a period of time?

A. Sometimes they do spike, yes. ae


Q. And what was unusual about the spike with respect to Michael Jackson?

A. That it was enormous and that it continued a bit longer than would be the norm.
ich
Q. And how did that fact factor into your optimism and enthusiasm and expectations for the This Is It
documentary?

A. I think it encouraged all of us. You know, the memorial service was well done, the ... Berry Gordy
and Michael's children and the people that spoke plus the level of sales for the records, you know,
mM

certainly then with the film. I mean, it was all very, very, very encouraging.

Q. And now you mentioned Berry Gordy. What were you referring to at that time with respect to
Berry?

A. Well, Berry at the memorial service referred to Michael as "the greatest entertainer who ever
lived".
a

Q. Do you represent Berry Gordy?


Te

A. I represented him when he sold his catalog. We're friends, yes.

Q. Got it.
w.

A. I've often talked to ... turned to Berry for advice since he knew Michael since Michael was nine or
ten years old and his daughter was married to Jermaine for a period of time. He knew Joe; he knew
Katherine. So even when the estate started when I wasn't sure I really could be the co-executor with all
ww

this chaos in terms of the family I went to Berry to get this advice.
om
Q. You mean you went to Berry Gordy ...

A. Yeah.

n.c
Q. ... to ... when ... to ask him whether or not you should be involved with the estate?

A. Yeah.

Q. Would you tell us about it or is that

so
A. Well, what it was is obviously Michael's brothers and sisters and parents were against us. I think
they had hoped that they were going to be the executors of the estate. They even said the will was fake.
I mean, it was crazy. They hired some lawyer in New York that came out and said all sorts of really,

ck
really, really nasty things about us, right. And all John and I were trying to do was do the right job as
we had always tried to do for Michael. So I went over to Berry Gordy's house and I said, "Berry, could
I talk to you?" And I said, "You know, I don't know, maybe I should just see this through for a few
months to see if it's possible, or six months, to deal with some of the debt or sell the publishing, do

lJa
something that's ... but I really don't ... I don't know if I should be doing this. This is just too crazy."
And he told me a story that he was the executor of his lawyer's estate. I forget the man's name. You
knew him. Berry's film lawyer. And he said his wife hated me, his ex-wife hated me, his kids hated me.
He said, "John, it was the most thankless job I ever had, but I owed it to this man." And he said, "You
ae
have no choice. Not only must you do it, but nobody else could do it. You knew him. You've been
working with him for ... on and off for 29 years." So I left ... I left Berry's house and I said, "All right.
Never again am I going have that thought like what the heck am I doing here. I'm just going to tune out
the noise from the family, the wife ... I mean, the mom, the kids and just we're going to go do our job."
ich

Q. By the way, when you had that conversation with Berry Gordy, there weren't a laundry list of
projects that you all ... that is you and Mr. McClain and others involved with the estate ... were
contemplating doing, were there?
mM

A. No.

Mr. Voth: Objection. Leading, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:
a

Q. At the time you had the conversation with Berry Gordy, were there any projects that you or Mr.
McClain, the co-executor, or others that were helping you with the estate had in mind?
Te

A. Not that I recall.

Q. And when you send ... said dealing with the debt or selling the catalogs what were you referring to
w.

during that conversation with Mr. Gordy?

A. Well, I didn't tell him I was thinking of that. Just in my mind I was thinking would it be ... should I
just bail now and have somebody else come in or should I try to do something that stabilizes these
ww

assets if it's possible. And in the back of my mind I said, could we sell this publishing company, what
could we do. Not that I wanted to.
om
Q. All right. So ... so you all ... you and the team began to work on and ultimately complete the This Is
It documentary, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. And what was the goal behind that documentary?

A. Goal No. 1 was to get as much money as possible given the financial affairs that I outlined before

so
with loans in default and foreclosures on the house. No. 2, to revamp Michael's image. John McClain
and I knew the real Michael. We knew the artist, the perfectionist, the genius, the songwriter, the
dancer, the singer, you know. But the impression that others had of Michael was, you know, this tabloid
impression. And we felt like in this movie This Is It it would show people the real Michael Jackson and

ck
people could stop referring to him as "Wacko Jacko" or any of that other stuff and come back to saying
this is one of the greatest artists our country has ever seen.

Q. By the way, to the best of your knowledge, had there ever been a documentary of an artist even as

lJa
famous as Michael Jackson rehearsing, if you know?

A. I'm ... I'm sure there have been some where there were little bits of rehearsals, but not an entire film,
no.
ae
Q. And do you know of any rehearsal, whether it's part of or all of an entire film, that had been
released of someone who had passed away?
ich
A. Yeah. I mean, there was ... there were several Elvis documentaries I'm aware of. That woman, my
dad wants me to go to rehab, I forget her name.

Q. Amy Winehouse.
mM

A. Amy. There was an Amy Wineheart documentary.

Q. Winehouse. Winehouse.

A. Winehouse. There might have been a Whitney. I'm not sure. I mean, there have been some, but they
kind of haven't done that well.
a

Q. So in terms of performance of music documentaries, how did Michael Jackson This Is It do?
Te

A. Well, worldwide, I believe it's the biggest grossing music concert film in history. I believe in the
U.S. maybe Justin Bieber did a little bit more. But when you look on a worldwide basis, it's the biggest
grossing concert film ever.
w.

Q. And, by the way, how do concert films generally do given your experience in the business?

A. Not so good. If I recall, the Rolling Stones did one with Martin Scorsese. I don't believe it attained
$10 million at the box office. The U2 did a big documentary, Rattle and Hum, my recollection is it did
ww

less than 20 million at the box office.


om
Q. Was part of the effort to ... well, I think you used the phrase "revamp Michael's image". So I'm just
going to borrow your phrase.

A. Rehabilitate, yeah, or I wouldn't even say rehabilitate. Just to bring it back to what it was in the 80s,

n.c
but really to show the real Michael Jackson. Not this tabloid stuff, you know.

Q. Whatever expectation you had for the success of the film This Is It, did the ultimate results surpass
your hopes and expectations?

so
A. Yes.

Q. Cirque Du Soleil. When did you first hear from Cirque Du Soleil?

ck
A. I got a call from Rene Angelil, Celine 183 Dion's husband and manager, he's French, he's from
Montreal.

Q. He's since passed away, correct?

lJa
A. He's dead, yeah. But he said that Cirque would be interested in talking about the possibility of
creating some kind of show based on Michael's music.
ae
Q. And do you remember about when this took place in ... was it in 2009?

A. Yeah. It was in 2009.


ich
Q. And was it ... was it after ... obviously after Michael died. But was it sometime after Michael died?

A. I think it was a couple months after he passed away.

Q. And before you got that phone call had you or anyone else associated with ... with the Michael
mM

Jackson team, the Estate of Michael Jackson team, thought about Cirque Du Soleil?

A. I mean, in my mind I thought wouldn't it be great to have some kind of live show featuring
Michael's music.

Q. That's kind of a different question. I'm asking specifically ...


a

A. Had I ...
Te

Q. ... if you thought about ...

A. No.
w.

Q. ... joining up forces with Cirque Du Soleil.

A. No.
ww

Q. And when you say talking about a ... I think you used the phrase ... live show, was that within a
week or two after Michael's death?
om
A. No. It was a couple months later.

Q. And was that all connected ... was that at all connected with the This Is It experience while you

n.c
were working on This Is It?

A. Yes. That encouraged us and emboldened us, you know, to keep going.

Q. And do you recall what the thoughts were even if they're totally hypothetical ...

so
A. Yeah. I mean, we felt ...

Q. ... or dreams?

ck
A. ... that Michael Jackson being the greatest performer of all time it would be fitting if it were
possible to create a live show featuring his music and his performances, kind of replicate the
experience of being at a Michael Jackson concert.

lJa
Q. And when you say replicate his performances, do you mean either video or hiring someone to do
Michael Jackson and with backup dancers and all that?
ae
A. You can't ... I mean, you can't really hire somebody to play Michael. There's only one Michael. And
there are tribute shows. There's Elvis tribute shows, there's Bee Gees tribute shows, they're not good.
You can't stick somebody out there to play Michael Jackson and expect people are going to pay a lot of
money to go see it. It just doesn't work. You have to create another way to replicate the feeling of
ich
Michael Jackson's music and his performances. I mean, yeah.

Q. So you get this call from Celine Dion's husband and manager and what did Rene tell you?

A. Said, "Look, there's interest in meeting with you to see if it's possible to talk about a show, you
mM

know, based on Michael's music." So that's what he ... you know, at the time I believe Guy Laliberte
was in space. Guy had gone up in a Russian spaceship. He was orbiting the earth.

Judge Holmes: Sorry. Who is Guy Laliberte?

A. He was the owner and CEO of ...chairman of Cirque Du Soleil. He had started as a street performer,
a fire breather or something, a sword swallower, and he was in space. 186
a

Mr. Weitzman:
Te

Q. So prior to that contact, you had seen Cirque shows; is that correct?

A. Correct.
w.

Q. When is the first time you saw a Cirque show?

A. Well, of all things Michael Jackson and I went to one of the Cirque tent shows, the shows that they
do under tent. It was in Santa Monica. We did that back around I don't know if it was '85, '87, '88, way,
ww

way long time ago. Mike was kind of a fan of Cirque.


om
Q. The tents near the pier, near the Santa Monica Pier?

A. Yeah. They put up a tent and they'd create these mythical shows. And so we went to see that show
and, yeah.

n.c
Q. Now, do you think when Michael Jackson was alive he would have done a show with Cirque?

A. I don't ... I see no ...

so
Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for speculation.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

ck
Mr Weitzman: Really?

Judge Holmes: Did he have any plans to the 187 best of your knowledge to do a show with Cirque Du
Soleil?

lJa
A. To the best of my knowledge he had no plans to do a show with Cirque Du Soleil.

Judge Holmes: Did he ever express a desire to do a show with Cirque Do Soleil to you?

A. No. He never did.


ae
Mr. Weitzman:
ich
Q. So did you ...

A. Now, I know Michael visited Cirque once just to tour it so there was plenty of opportunity were
there a mutual interest. But, no, to my knowledge, the only thing Michael ever did was, for example, on
the 1980 Triumph Tour he hired David Copperfield to do one illusion in the show but he wouldn't hire
mM

David Copperfield to do a show. Michael did his own shows.

Q. Okay. Did you then travel to Montreal to meet with Cirque executive?

A. Mr. Laliberte, yes.

Q. Okay. Was it just Mr. Laliberte or anyone else?


a

A. I met with Daniel Lamarre was there and Guy Laliberte.


Te

Q. And that was it?

A. Yeah.
w.

Q. When was that in 2009?

A. Sometime in 2009, like 2009.


ww

Q. Okay. Remember if it was September, just to kind of help you along?


om
A. I'm beginning to think it probably was September. I don't know what tells me that.

Q. Okay. And tell me what the meeting consisted of.

n.c
A. Well, I ... it's one of those meetings you don't forget because it was in the Guy's conference room
and he's sitting there chain smoking cigarettes. He's an interesting guy. He's just speaks with a heavy
French accent. Probably never dressed in more than a T-shirt and jeans, but he's chain smoking the
cigarettes. He's very abrupt. So I looked at him and I said, "Guy, did they allow you to smoke those

so
cigarettes up in the space capsule?" And he said, "No, they didn't." I don't want to tell you what he said
after that. It would not be appropriate in the courtroom.

Q. So what did you all discuss?

ck
A. I said ... he said ... I said that ... he said, "Michael Jackson was a great entertainer. We would like to
create a ... possibly create a show that could travel around like a Michael Jackson concert." "So how
would you do that?" Well, you know, we talked a little bit, you know, no one could play Michael. And I

lJa
said, "Maybe we should have a live band." But I said, "But, Guy, you've never really done that so that
concerns me. Can we talk about doing a show in Las Vegas because you've done one with the Beetles."
I can't remember if he'd done Elvis yet, which unfortunately flopped and closed. But so I pitched him
on the idea of doing a show in Las Vegas. He pitched me on doing a show that can travel around to
arenas throughout the world with a live ...
ae
Q. Had you ever thought of anything like that before?
ich
A. You know, ideas are ideas. And ideas can sometimes be just ... I could think of a million ideas. It's
getting them done that's the hard part. So if you think up an idea, well, yeah, we should have a live
show that travels around and does nine nights at the Staples Center. Great. How you going to do that?
But when you're sitting with the owner of Cirque Du Soleil who says I would be will- ... you know,
because here's the thing, when the Beetles did their show they had to put up half of the cost. They had
mM

to write a check for 20 or $25 million.

Q. They the Beetles or they ...

A. The Beetles did.

Q. ... Apple was it?


a

A. Yes. So the Beetles put up 20 or 25 million and Cirque put up. Elvis had to do the same thing. He
Te

put ... they put up 20 or $25 million. We didn't have 20 or $25 million to put up, but that's how they got
half the profits on their show. So I said to Guy, "The only way we would do this, Guy, you've got to put
up the money and we get half the profits." "Well, that's not how we did it with the Beetles." I said, "I
don't care. This is the way we got to do it."
w.

Q. It's Michael Jackson.

A. So he agreed. Each of those shows incidentally cost close to $50 million to create so when you ask
ww

me do we ever think up this idea, where are we going to find $50 million to create a show to travel
around the world that might or might not ... there are very few people that are going to write that check.
om
They wrote $50 million check and then they gave us their creative team, we gave them our creative
team ... i.e., me and Karen and John McClain. But we brought in, you know, the director Jamie King,
we brought in great Greg Phillinganes who ran Michael's band, we brought in Bigfoot Moffitt to play
the drum ...

n.c
Q. Right.

A. ... I mean, we injected a lot of Michael's live experience in there.

so
Judge Holmes: Bigfoot Moffitt?

A. Yeah. He was a drummer. He's a big old ... looks like a defensive end and they call him Bigfoot
because of the way he hits the big bass drum. We had a live band on that show. So, yeah, and ... sorry.

ck
Judge Holmes: It's a different kind of law you do, Mr. Branca.

A. Your Honor, this is my world now that we're dealing in. So, yeah, it's great to have an idea, let's

lJa
have a live show, but you've got to have in this case $50 million, you've got to have a director, you've
got to have choreographers, you've got to have people to create the stuff, you've got to license the
songs. It's so easy to talk about it and much 192 harder to do, much less do well.
ae
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. So then what happened?
ich
A. We created that first show, Michael Jackson: IMMORTAL. It opened in Quebec or in Montreal,
excuse me, where we got very nice reviews because Cirque kind of owns that town. And then when it
went out on the road and I'll never forget when it came to LA. Now, I thought the show was really good
and so did everybody else because all the fans ... we did $380 million at the box office on that show,
which ranked it as the seventh biggest tour of any kind in history putting aside Broadway plays. But,
mM

you know, the Rolling Stones. But when we came to LA in the Staples Center, this gentleman at the LA
Times basically said this show is a joke. It's like Disney on Ice. Shame on these people for doing the
show if this is the way they're going to, you know, blah, blah. Anyway, the reviews were not uniformly
positive, but Michael's fans loved the show. I ... just to save my reputation here the second show we
did, Michael Jackson: ONE, everybody loves. Everybody loved and everybody loves. I just want to say
that for the record.
a

Q. And that show that is the residency show was a byproduct in effect of the agreement with Cirque?
Te

A. Yes.

Q. All right.
w.

A. I wouldn't let them do one. We had to do two.

Q. And you were very involved in the residency show ...


ww

A. Extremely involved.
om
Q. ... as well as you were in IMMORTAL show?

A. Very involved in IMMORTAL show. But in the one show in Las Vegas we were over the top
involved. I mean, couldn't open ... Elvis closed. They did Elvis. I'm a huge Elvis fan. And they

n.c
revamped it and they revamped it and they couldn't quite and it closed and they lost money. The Elvis
Presley Estate lost money. Cirque lost money on the Elvis show.

Q. And, by the way, different from the Beetles and different from the Presley Estate, the Estate of
Michael Jackson, as I understood it, did not have to put up half the cost?

so
A. No. We didn't put up any money.

Q. All right. And how long did the traveling show, the road show IMMORTAL run?

ck
A. I don't recall exactly. Was it about a year and a half? It went all over the world ... China, Russia,
Germany, Sweden. Didn't go to Africa.

lJa
Q. And ONE show in Las Vegas is still active and performing?

A. Still running, yes. Now, that show is a challenge because, again, people think ... I know the
Government thinks, oh, Michael Jackson, just do it, it's all good. Well, I can tell you that the first time
ae
we went down to Las Vegas to see the basic run through of the show on "Billie Jean" they had a fat
French clown humping one of the girl dancers. Can you imagine on "Billie Jean"? So I'll never forget
we go in the room afterwards. I looked at my fiancI said, "Listen, it's time for me to move to Utah and
change my name because this is going to be ugly." So we go in the room and Guy, the owner, the first
ich
thing he says is, "The clown is fired." I said, "Thank you, Guy. I don't have to say it."
But then he said, "No one in this room talks. Only Branca, me, and Jamie King." There was like 30
people in the room. And so he said, "John, tell me from the Michael Jackson point of view what do we
have to do? I will tell you from the Cirque point." And two weeks later we're back in Las Vegas another
rehearsal, two weeks later another one, two weeks and each time the show got better. But you don't just
mM

go here's the show. It's not that easy. Now, I'm not taking credit. Michael Jackson was the most
wonderful artist I've ever seen. But I learned from Michael because you cannot be around him all the
time and not pick up ... you know, I've been around Mick Jagger and some of the biggest artists and
you learn from them. And I kind of learned from Michael. I know what he likes and we could never be
Michael. But we could certainly stop Cirque from making the big mistakes.

Q. And I may have asked this before but I'm going to ask it again. At or about the time Michael died or
a

even the weeks or two afterward had you or anyone else discussed partnering with Cirque to do any
shows that highlighted or involved Michael Jackson's music?
Te

A. No.

Mr. Voth: Indeed asked and answered.


w.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr Weitzman: May I have a moment, Your Honor?


ww

Judge Holmes: You may.


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Mr Weitzman: What he say, asked and answered?

Judge Holmes: It was.

n.c
Mr. Voth: No. I said indeed.

Mr Weitzman: I started with that.

so
Mr. Voth: I said indeed.

Mr Weitzman: I started with that..If I can revisit the area of general ... yes, sir?

ck
A. Can I just say one more thing? And I'm sorry for pontificating so ...

Mr Weitzman: I know it's the judge's courtroom, but you're the client. Yes, sir. What would you like to
say?

lJa
Judge Holmes: Okay.

A. One of the things that I also, you know, feel strongly about is you pick the right partners because to
ae
mount a documentary about Michael, like we did in Spike Lee or these shows with Cirque or the movie
This Is It, it's really critical. It's not as much as it is about Michael. It's not just about Michael, it's about
who's the director on the movie, who's the director on the show, who's doing the other elements. And so
there's a lot of expertise. Not mine, not John McClain's, but, you know, Kenny Ortega, Amy Pascal,
ich
Spike Lee, Greg Phillinganes. A lot goes into these shows. It's not just we film Michael and we're
putting it out there. So sorry for that.

Q. Back to a little bit of reality. The general merch business, name and likeness, T-shirts, as you would
say, tchotchkes, cups, all of that, do musicians as a whole make a lot of money or do very well in that
mM

area?

A. As a whole, no. The money they make from pure name and likeness ... and when I say that I mean
putting your photo or your name on a T-shirt, on a mug, on a school notebook, on a Christmas
ornament, on a poster, or even, you know, in an ad for something, that income for most musicians is
dwarfed compared to the money they make from their recordings, their songs, and especially their tour.
So, and for me putting on a record is not a name and likeness right. It's master recording.
a

Q. Right. Okay. So ...


Te

A. Can I ... and just to give an exam- ... I'm sorry, Howard.

Q. That's all right.


w.

A. But there's certain things in this case that have really bothered me because, you know, we're trying
to protect the interest of these kids. We've tried to be reasonable with the Government, as you know, in
these settlement discussions. But if you took Michael's name and likeness and you put it on a movie
ww

screen with nothing else, how many people would go to that movie? If we took Michael Jackson's
name and likeness and we put it in the Staples Center, how many people would show up? No. It's a
om
movie. It's a movie with performance. It's a movie with singing, with songs, with recordings. Same
with the show. Plus $50 million investment. It's different. Now, we've tried to do licenses and we've had
some success. We've got a T-shirt coming out with Supreme if anybody has a teenage kid. They don't
pay us any money, but it is ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: Supreme?

A. Supreme is phenomenon. They have a store in Greenwich Village and SoHo.

so
Judge Holmes: Is it singular or plural?

A. Singular. Kids will fight to get into the store to buy a Supreme T-shirt. It's a crazy thing.

ck
Judge Holmes: Is it a person or a thing?

A. It's a company call Su- ... it's a brand.

lJa
Judge Holmes: All right.

A. So I have a 12-year-old son that's crazy about Supreme and Kanye West and so we decided, okay,
how do we rebrand Michael now to get to the younger kids. Okay. We're going to do something with
ae
Supreme. We'll make no money from it, but maybe someday we'll get a few new fans. We've tried to do
licensing. We hired ABG. They own Marilyn Monroe and they license Elvis Pressley and they said,
"Come on. Bring us deals using Michael's name and likeness." I can tell you and the experts will testify
what that's resulted in. Sorry.
ich

Mr Weitzman: That's okay, boss. I have no further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Voth, the floor is yours.


mM

Mr. Voth: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor. So Respondent has decided to call Mr. Branca during its case
in chief. Now Respondent wants to confirm that Mr. Branca will be ... given that he's a party he'll be
available during that time. And we can make whatever necessary arrangements with Petitioner's
counsel.

Judge Holmes: We will do that, Mr. Voth.


a

Mr. Weitzman: So I assume they're foregoing any cross examination on any questions asked on
direct?
Te

Judge Holmes: Only. Yes. You can make objections on scope in other words.

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. But, I mean, I just want the record clear for ...
w.

Judge Holmes: Oh, he's ...

Mr. Weitzman: ... Mr. Voth.


ww

Judge Holmes: That's a deal.


om
Mr. Weitzman: You're assuming he totally gets it. I just want to make sure.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

n.c
Mr. Voth: Respondent will during his direct ... will call Mr. Branca during its case in chief and
proceed as Respondent desires. And given that he is the opposing party, Respondent will in a way cross
examine Mr. Branca with whatever topics Respondent deems suitable.

so
Mr. Weitzman: I thought that's what we were trying to avoid.

Judge Holmes: Well, you have to object beyond the scope.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: I understand.

Judge Holmes: And I will enforce so rules if they're being ... going to call him on their case in chief.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.

Mr. Voth: Now, in terms ... I just want to clarify that ...
ae
Judge Holmes: You're limited to the ... you're limited in your cross examination to the topics
discussed on direct examination under these rules.

Mr. Voth: Right. But at this point we have no cross, Your Honor.
ich

Judge Holmes: Oh.

Mr. Voth: Right. That's ...


mM

Judge Holmes: Okay. I see. Then actually Mr. Branca is free to step down and we'll see if the
Government calls him on their case in chief.

Mr. Weitzman: But I ... if I didn't make my record clear, as I understand your ruling on our request
early on, the Respondent ... no, they're the ...

Judge Holmes: They're the Respondent.


a

Mr. Weitzman: Got it. This is not my venue, Your Honor. The Respondent should not be allowed to
Te

cross examine in their direct. Their direct is to raise subjects that are new and for their case and that's
why ...

Judge Holmes: Not necessarily new, but for their case, yes. Moreover, they'll probably, if you insist,
w.

have him declared a hostile witness or whatever it is so they can lead him and pretend that it's cross
examination in terms of the form of questions, which is perfectly fine, too.

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. So ... so ...


ww

Judge Holmes: And then your re- ... your cross examination of their direct testimony of Mr. Branca
om
will be limited similarly to whatever questions and topics they discuss.

Mr. Weitzman: So when we talked sometime earlier on the phone about getting a witness on and off
in one appearance it doesn't seem to apply ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: Not happening now, yeah.

Mr. Weitzman: Why?

so
Judge Holmes: Well, they want to present their case in chief in some coherent way. And I'm prepared
in a trial of this length to let them do so especially when it comes to a party who should be here more or
less at call.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: There's not much I can say except ...

Judge Holmes: Yeah.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: ... I probably disagree but it doesn't make any difference.

Judge Holmes: Yeah, I understand. ae


Mr. Weitzman: Okay.

Judge Holmes: Normally it's more efficient to get them on, get them off. But I understand the need for
a coherent story in a giant case so. Oh, I do have a few questions for you still, Mr. Branca. You said you
ich
were involved in the deal with Sony to create Sony ATV. Did I remember that right?

A. Yes.

Judge Holmes: Okay. In the course of that, according to the deal sheet as I understand it, Sony gave
mM

$100 million to Mr. Jackson; is that correct? why did Sony agree to give $115 million to Mr. Jackson to
give them half ownership of the combined company?

A. We took the position that Michael's catalog was more valuable than Sony's publishing company so
that that was an equalization payment. I think that's what it was referred to actually.

Judge Holmes: How were the respective catalogs of Sony and ATV when it was owned only by Mr.
a

Jackson valued back in 1995?


Te

A. You know, I don't recall. I'd have to go back and look. But generally a catalog would be valued
based on what's called the net publisher's share, which is the cash flow after the writers are paid.
Whereas an operating company would be valued based on EBITDA profits.
w.

Judge Holmes: Huh. And was your intent at that time to create an operating company or an even
bigger, better catalog company?

A. By merging ATV into Sony ATV we were accepting the fact that it was going to be an operating
ww

company.
om
Judge Holmes: Did you have a formula in mind to equate value as measured by NPS to value as
measured by EBITDA?

A. I mean, obviously I don't recall what I ... exactly what I was thinking 21 years ago. It to some

n.c
degree was a negotiation. But the - - and I don't recall what multiples were on catalogs at that time
versus, you know, maybe eight times EBITDA as a measure for the operating company. But somehow
we got to the point where I convinced them that ... first of all, as I mentioned, Michael needed the
money so the exercise for me was to get as much money as possible out of them and still have half the
company.

so
Judge Holmes: But you didn't have any rule of thumb or more precise valuation formula to equalize
EBITDA earnings and NPS earnings?

ck
A. At the time I'm sure I did. I just don't recall at this time what it was.

Judge Holmes: Was that something that you had experience with in context other than negotiating the
Sony ATV deal?

lJa
A. I mean, within our firm there was the expertise of companies we had represented. In '95, you know, I
would have gone ... if I hadn't done it myself, gone to others to be, you know ... to make sure I
wasn't ... I was being aggressive, if you will.
ae
Judge Holmes: In 2009 had those ratios changed in any respect that you're familiar with?

A. I mean, I would re- ... I would defer to our investment banker Dave Dunn who helped us do
ich
valuations both in '09 and last year and even today. But generally speaking the multiple that's used for
the sale catalogs has come down a bit since the heyday of the music business.

Judge Holmes: Is that a reflection in part of the digitalization revolution?


mM

A. Yeah. The risk ... the risk of income going away, being cannibalized. To some degree it's a
reflection of interest rates or what other investments are available in the marketplace. Also one key
component there was a time when there were six major music companies and several strong
independent companies so the competition for music publishing catalogs was intense. There's been a lot
of consolidation to the point now where there are only three major companies and one strong
independent so the level of competitions gone down.
a

Judge Holmes: Does that reflect economies of scale in the music publishing industry or is it kind of
like microbreweries where technologies advance to the point where there's even more competition but
Te

it just takes the form of smaller, lighter, faster companies?

A. The latter.
w.

Judge Holmes: What were your ... the terms of your relationship with Mr. Jackson at the end of his
life by which I mean were you on a retainer, per-job basis, or what other ...

A. You mean in 2009?


ww

Judge Holmes: 2009, yes.


om
A. When he hired me back in that eight-day period?

Judge Holmes: Yeah.

n.c
A. We ... in that meeting at the Forum we hadn't got to the point of discussing what the arrangements
were going to be. That was something I would have discussed with Michael Kane his business
manager. I was assuming it would be 5 percent.

so
Judge Holmes: 5 percent of what?

A. Of his entertainment earnings that I was working off.

ck
Judge Holmes: Oh, like an agent or that?

A. Yeah.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Okay. Was that more or less the way you billed him back during the heyday of ... you
have to say yes or no, not nod because of the transcript.

A. Oh, I'm ... yes. There was a time when we were paid a retainer for doing non-music industry work
ae
and then 5 percent on music industry earnings as a lawyer, which is different, you know, from the role
we have today.

Judge Holmes: Thinking back again to approximately the time of Mr. Jackson's death you had
ich
mentioned that there was a great deal of debt owed. I remember one was $40 million in debt to AEG ...

A. AEG.

Judge Holmes: And what ... were the terms of - - what were the terms of that debt? Was it going to
mM

come due shortly?

A. They had advanced money to Michael, it was actually approximately $38 million, to prepare for the
tour. Whether they had recourse or not became academic when we had an opportunity to put out This is
It, but we couldn't put it out without repaying that amount of money. So I used the term a little perhaps
more loosely there than I would when referring to the loans that were secured by the assets.
a

Judge Holmes: Yeah. It's clearly a claim as the bankruptcy courts would say. Now there was
approximately $300 million owed that had been secured by the Sony ATV ...
Te

A. 300 mil- ... yes. Secured by Michael's half interest in Sony. That's in addition to the company debt
that was inside of Sony.
w.

Judge Holmes: By which you mean it was debt that Sony ATV owed to outsiders, right?

A. Yeah. They had borrowed to acquire catalogs, et cetera.


ww

Judge Holmes: Setting that aside, I'm interested in the 300 million. Were the terms of that debt such
that it was going to be coming due upon Mr. Jackson's death?
om
A. I ... not on ... that's a good question. I don't recall. We refinanced it. But it was a term loan and
the term was always short. It was always two or three years.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Was it secured by anything?

A. By his interest in Sony ATV.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Were there ... oh, you had mentioned that he had real estate debt, as well.

so
A. Yeah.

Judge Holmes: What real estate debt did he have at the time of his death?

ck
A. Michael had a home at Havenhurst Avenue in Encino which had been his principal residence, but
then he moved out.

lJa
Judge Holmes: That was his mom's house?

A. And his mom was living there, yeah. ae


Judge Holmes: And what were the debt problems or the debt there?

A. There was a loan on it of about 5 or $6 million and the utility bills were unpaid ... electrical, water.
They were about to get turned off.
ich

Judge Holmes: What were the terms of those loans? Were they going to come due upon Mr. Jackson's
death?

A. No. That was a ... that was a real estate loan. It was a $5 million real estate loan, first trust deed.
mM

But when payments weren't being made one could ... I believe it had already been in ... started the
foreclosure process.

Judge Holmes: Who owned Neverland at the time of his death? Owned first. I know ...

A. It was co-owned by Colony Capital and Michael, but Colony Capital was the majority partner. It
was actually a joint venture pursuant to which in addition to the money they had paid Michael they had
a

the right to charge interest on it, they had the right to charge an operating fee, operating expenses, and
interest on the operating expenses.
Te

Judge Holmes: In the ...

A. So the 25 million that they had loaned to him at one point ... I think at this point is up past $50
w.

million.

Judge Holmes: And what were the terms of that? Was that going to become due upon his death?
ww

A. They owned the asset. They had the right to sell it and take the proceeds that they were entitled to.
And if anything was leftover it went to Michael. I didn't ... I didn't count that in the debt because that
om
was a joint venture and there was no recourse on it.

Judge Holmes: Was there any other debt that was hovering around Mr. Jackson at the time of his
death?

n.c
A. Yes. Fortress.

Judge Holmes: What's Fortress?

so
A. Fortress had a ... I believe it was $80 million loan secured by the Mijac catalog and at one point it
was secured by Neverland until Colony took them out.

Judge Holmes: Okay. So Fortress is another company?

ck
A. That is a very aggressive private equity firm back in New York.

Judge Holmes: A usurer.

lJa
A. You got it.

Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: So stipulated.


ae
Judge Holmes: Okay. Do you happen to know the interest rate on that loan?
ich

A. I believe it was 16 percent.

Judge Holmes: In 2009?


mM

A. Yes.

Judge Holmes: Secured you said by ...

A. Mijac Music.

Judge Holmes: And was that recourse or was it just secured by the Mijac interest?
a

A. I believe it was secured by Mijac.


Te

Judge Holmes: Okay. Was there any other ... oh, and was that about to come due because of his
death or ...
w.

A. No. But we weren't able to make the interest payments. We wouldn't have been and he wasn't able to
so foreclosure was certainly more than possible.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Any other debt?


ww

A. Well, there were a number of creditors' claims that came in shortly after this death of, you know,
om
unpaid bills and monies.

Judge Holmes: Setting aside utilities and phone bills and that kind of stuff, anything substantial?

n.c
A. Unpaid royalties to John Landis, the director of "Thriller" and "Black or White" and just a number
of other.

Judge Holmes: Are we talking millions, hundreds of thousands?

so
A. Millions.

Judge Holmes: Tens of millions or millions?

ck
A. 5 to 10 million maybe in total.

Mr. Weitzman: You might ... you might want to direct your question at some point to ...

lJa
Judge Holmes: To the lawyer?

Mr. Weitzman: ... to me if you want. ae


Judge Holmes: Okay. If you're on the Government's witness list.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't mean that. Not yet.


ich
Judge Holmes: All right. Anything else that I've missed in terms of debt?

A. No. I think that's

Judge Holmes: Did you come in the days and weeks after Mr. Jackson's death to some understanding
mM

of the cash flow needs of this estate for this debt and for anything else it has to do?

A. I mean, yeah. I mean, there is an accountant named Michael Kane who had been Michael's
accountant. But the cash flow needs were certainly the debt service to begin with. And beyond that, I
mean, we're going to have bills to pay the people we were hiring to help with the estate. But the cash
flow needs were obviously substantial.
a

Judge Holmes: How much per month?


Te

A. I don't recall.

Judge Holmes: Was it in the millions?


w.

A. Yeah.

Judge Holmes: Tens of millions?


ww

A. No.
om
Judge Holmes: Just one more question.

A. Excuse me. Let me just say one thing. When you tens of millions, if you're looking at 9 percent
interest on 300 million and 16 percent interest on 80 million, you probably are looking at tens of ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: You're getting very close to tens of millions.

A. Yeah.

so
Judge Holmes: Okay. You said you were familiar with the album Thriller?

A. Yes.

ck
Judge Holmes: What exactly does the "funk of 40,000 years mean"?

A. Karma. Bad karma.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Ah! Is that the same use of the word "funk" with regard to Mr. James, Rick James?

A. Rick James, yeah. ae


Judge Holmes: That's also karma?

A. Yeah. I see you've been listening to sole music lately.


ich
Judge Holmes: He's from ... no. He's from Buffalo. We know him up there.

A. Okay.

Judge Holmes: Richard James.


mM

A. Okay.

Judge Holmes: Then he went to California and everything ...

A. Everything fell apart after that.


a

Mr. Weitzman: I only have two follow-up questions ...


Te

Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman: ... to your questions if I may.


w.

FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY Howard Weitzman

Mr. Weitzman:
ww

Q. Mr. Branca, when Michael Jackson passed away do you know whether there was any cash available
...
om
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. ... cash available to ...

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. ... to pay the debts that we dealt with with respect to Havenhurst and loan service and just living
expenses for the children?

so
A. Well, we did meet with Mr. Tohme because we were trying to marshal the assets.

Q. Why did we meet with Mr. Tohme?

ck
A. Because we had ... we believed that he might be holding bank accounts in Michael's name. So in
our first meet with Mr. Tohme he told us he had ... absolutely had no money that belonged to Michael
Jackson. So I think ... I can't recall if we put a private investigator on it or you followed up, Howard,

lJa
but we found out he had several million dollars of Michael Jackson's money.

Q. And did we ever get some of that money back from Mr. Tohme?
A. We got some of it.
Q. Do you remember how much?
A. No.
ae
Judge Holmes: Did you have any money of Mr. Jac- ... did you know of any money that Mr. Jackson
had that was not with Mr. Tohme but subject to his control?
ich
A. Well, Michael Kane who's still the accountant for the estate, you know, had bank accounts. So from
that $38 million advanced by AEG there may have been some money in the accounts, but it wasn't very
substantial.
Judge Holmes: Not $10 million?
A. No.
mM

Judge Holmes: More than a million?


A. Maybe in that vicin- ... I'm just speculating.
Judge Holmes: Okay.
Mr. Weitzman: I only have one more question. BY
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Were you ... did you believe there was not enough money to pay the bills?
A. Absolutely.
a

Q. So that ... that's not quite a million dollars, is it? So I don't mean to be impeaching my own
witness.
Te

A. Even if we had a million dollars ...

Mr. Weitzman: No further questions.


A. ... it wouldn't ... it wouldn't have ...
w.

Judge Holmes: No. No further questions. Do you have any follow-up questions, Mr. Voth?
Mr. Voth: No, Your Honor.
Judge Holmes: You might want to ask them in the series during your direct. Okay. Thank you very
much, Mr. Branca.
ww
om
LIAR JOHN BRANCA, FORCED MICHAEL TO TAKE OUT LOANS , MJ THREATENED
WITH BANKRUPTCY BECAUSE OF BRANCA, AFTER MICHAEL FIRED HIM FOR
EMBEZZLEMENT THIS IS HOW HE GOT HIS REVENGE!! BY FILING AN INJUNCTION

n.c
AGAINST MICHAEL FOR $20 MILLION, BC OF WHICH MICHAEL COULD NOT
REFINANCE SONY/ATV CATALOG, MICHAEL GAVE THIS $20 TO BRANCA JUST SO HE
COULD GET HIS LOAN, HE HAD NO CHOICE!!! SEE BELOW..

so
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ck
so
n.c
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w.
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lJa
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so
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so
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w.
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so
n.c
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WHY WAS MICHAEL JACKSON IN SO MUCH DEBT, BECAUSE JOHN BRANCA WAS
WORKING WITH SONY AGAINST MICHAEL!!

n.c
When LeGrand was questioned during the 05 trial, by PROSECUTION, he was asked, "Did you FIND
evidence of wrong doing by Branca" to which the reply was NO!

See Interfor report here:- which reads Interfor believes that, at this stage of the investigation, IF WE
HAD ADDITIONAL TIME AND PROPER BUDGET WE COULD DEVELOP INTELLIGENCE

so
WHICH WOULD UNCOVER A SCHEME TO DEFRAUD JACKSON AND HIS EMPIRE BY MOT-
TOLA AND BRANCA BY DIVERTING FUNDS OFFSHORE!

ck
DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE, READ MICHAEL JACKSONS TESTIMONY IN
REGARDS TO THIS HERE

lJa
http://imgur.com/a/7U9FB

ae
MJ Sony/ATV shares sold: the never seen before Trigger Clause and the
Sony purchase option
ich
a mM
Te
w.
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