Rev.

Thomas Simpson Interview

Sarah Arney (SA): Alright, so I usually begin these interviews by playing something that

I heard while I was at General Conference, and this is a Bishop who is about to start

some group discussions.

Thomas Simpson (TS): Alright

Bishop Palmer: So I want to tell you a quick story. The Council of Bishops a couple of

years ago was having table conversations about some of our most challenging issues in

the life of the church and the several cultures that we represent around the globe. One

of our colleague bishops at the table where I was sitting said, We all need to take a

step back. There was a pregnant pause, as you might imagine, not knowing what would

be said next by this particular bishop, who Ill not throw under the bus as we speak. He

said, Why dont we try telling our story, before we take our stand. I found those words

memorable, and I'm grateful for them to this day, no matter what the subject is before

us. So, would you see this as a time for you to tell your story, and you dont have to give

every detail of your life, but as it relates relevantly to this conversation that weve been

engaged in over many decades around human sexuality. And as you begin that, the

statement is coming, that ought to be available at the heart, but think about telling a

story, telling your story, before you take your stand.

SA: So, I play that at the beginning of interviews to set the tone. This is more to ask you

about the formational experiences that youve had as a pastor which help you come to
your view about the debate rather than trying to put you in a particular category or side.

So, if youd like to say your name, your, occupation, and a bit about yourself?

TS:

Well I am Thomas Simpson, and I am the senior pastor of Solid Rock United

Methodist Church in Cameron, North Carolina. I am married; I have two children, two

daughters, both are grown and both are out of the house. Go ahead and ask away, what

else would you like to know? It's been a long journey as far as for me to get toIve

been in ministry now going on 25 years, but Im 56 years old. So, there was a lot before

I actually came into ministry.

It was one of those things where I tried probably just about everyI went

through one time, and from the time I was age 14 until I finally accepted my call into

ministry, I did 27 different vocations, different things. I was never happy. I would start

somewhere I got fired from two jobs in my lifetime of all these jobs. But Id always get

restless and want something else and just wasnt satisfied. Now once I answered the

call, got into ministry, as I said Ive been in it 25 years, Ive been in onetwothree

this is my fourth or fifth appointment. Ive not moved around every year like some folks,
and I'm at peace. I think I finally figured out what I was supposed to be doing, in that. I

dont know what else youd like to know; you ask the questions.

SA: Could you tell me a bit about your call to ministry?

TS:

About my call to ministry I always felt comfortable in a sanctuary; it didn't

matter where I went to be in a church, it felt like home there. I can't say that there was

an audible call that came one day and said, Thomas, you need to do this, with the

exception of wrestling one time in between different jobs.

I woke up one morning, the best I can describe it, it sounded like somebody had

hit a softball with an aluminum baseball bat. I woke to a Bonk sound, just Bonk. I

thought, What in the world is this?. I woke up, I thought about it, and then couldnt go

back to sleep. So, I got up and went in to do some Bible study, which I do occasionally. I

don't do it like I used to do it, I used to do it a lot more regularly, now I do it kind of catch

as catch can. But that morning I got up and I went in, and I was praying and I was

seeking God as to what I needed to do next. I did that crazy thing where you open the

Bible and put your finger on a passage, and the passage was in second Timothy where
he tells Timothy to go preach the Word in season and in out and all this stuff. I thought,

Okay, is that what I'm supposed to do?. It resonated.

At the time, I was running a pizza place. I was managing and running my own

pizza place. I got into the pizza business, because I felt like I needed to be in ministry

somehow; I got the pizza business thinking that if I had my own business it would free

up some time for me to share the Word and do some of things outside of that. As it was

I had the pizza restaurant two years now and I like to tell people I rolled in dough for two

years. The figurative money thing goes there too, but I did that for two years and still

wasnt satisfied. So, I said something to my wife that day, we needed to maybe sell the

pizza place, and she said, So what do you want to do?. And I said, Well I think I want

to go back to school and go to divinity school, and she stopped and turned around and

she said, You need to do that, youve been running from it for a long time.

The rest is history. Once I turned my name into the district superintendent I had a

church within three months. I went through this candidacy process that we do. It was a

hurried process; the mentor that I had was getting ready to retire, so I went through that

in about two months. It just took on a life of its own. Next thing I knew I was at Duke

divinity school, next thing I knew I graduated. I was appointing to my first full-time

position as an associate pastor, stayed there six years, then went to my next second

appointment and stayed there six years, now Im at Solid Rock beginning my fourth year.
I was a student pastor prior to that, so I've actually been in a church setting now 25

years. Im at peace about it, I know its what I'm supposed to be doing, I know it.

SA: Thank you. How important would you say culture is in shaping your religious

beliefs?

TS:

Probably a whole lot more important than I realize. My father was in the Army,

and growing up we live everywhere. Before I was eight years old, we lived in Iran, then I

started first grade in Bolivia. We transferred to Panama, I was there, and then once we

got back in the states I was in Virginia., and mom and dad finally moved back to this part

of the country where they had family. My dad was assigned to Fort Bragg for rest of his

career. We built a house on some family land, and that was it. So, culture, I'm sure it's

more important than I would give it credit, but I think Ive been given an example of

being exposed to a lot of different cultures prior to my adulthood in my early years. So,

what do you mean more when you're talking about, how important is culture?
SA: So, comparing it to the places that youve lived before, do you feel that the culture,

the way things happen in the American South and North Carolina or in Virginia plays a

role in the way the church works or the way you minister to people as a pastor?

TS:

Well it definitely does. One of the things I've learned over my career, there is a

certain culture that you come into with every appointment. A group of people that have

certain mindset. You have to tread the water carefully if you want to challenge that

culture. I wouldn't say that I bow down to a culture is in my particular church. I do

respect that culture, whatever it may be, and do my best to be an ambassador, a

reconciler, of such, depending on what the issues are.

To be honest, were talking about sexuality. The whole sexuality issue in 25 years

has never really been a sticking point in any church that I have served. I find it really

only becomes a sticking point based on the personal beliefs and preferences of, say the

leadership. I dont know if that makes sense.

SA: So, its not really an issue for you in day-to-day life your church or the relationships

of people in your congregations.

TS:

Not really. I really agree with, there was a speaker, on the let me just say for the

record I did not watch the entire Republican Convention. There was a speaker they had

who was, I dont know if he was a Congressman or Senator, but he was gay. He was up

there talking about, you know, were sitting there, weve got all these issues we need to

worry and what were arguing about is which bathroom to use. We make issues that are

relatively small in the grand scheme of things, we pump them up into things that we

shouldnt even really be worried about. And we leave the really big issues we ought to

be thinking about, we disregard them. So, I think he was right on the money on that.

SA: How would you describe your view of the current debate and the doctrine in the

United Methodist Church about human sexuality?

TS:

I think its a debate that needs to happen, first off. It kind of goes back to what I

was saying, I think it's overblown. Were spending so much time on this one issue, we're

neglecting a lot of other, in my opinion, bigger issues out there to the detriment of the

kingdom of God. Our job as Christians, as Stanley Hauerwas and Will Willimon put it, as

resident aliens here in this, is to be ambassadors for the kingdom of God to the world
that were in. We're so busy trying to pump up our own self-images and keep the walls in

the church there where everybodys comfortable, and were not paying any attention to

whats going on in the world around us.

Our food world pantry for great example is a great example of that. As I

mentioned earlier, we have 3500 to 4500 people coming in every month to get food

assistance here in Western Harnett County. And if you look, you can look out our doors

here and it looks like we were out in rural, were out in the middle of nowhere it seems,

almost. Except you start driving around there's all kinds of people around here. A lot of

them are poor and lower social class things like that are aspects we need to deal with.

Were kind of a pocket here in Western Harnett County where youve got a lot of poverty,

and the education level may not be the same, but we are surrounded by pockets of

affluence that seem to not even know were here. So, have a demand to get out and

help those that the need to help with food assistance and things like that. Most people

don't pay any attention to that. That's the thing we need to be doing and talking about,

whereas instead you got people whore just making these blanket statements and

choosing to choose or fight a battle or something that really, when Jesus comes back I

don't know its going to be that important.

SA: So, when you were growing up, was there any discussion or conversation about

human sexuality where you were?

TS:

Well no. My mom and dad tried to give us the sex talk. I remember when I was

maybe about age 10 or 11 Mom handed us a book, and it was called Dr. Talks to Nine to

Twelve-Year-olds. I remember reading this book, getting through with it, and thinking

okay mommas pregnant. Im getting ready to have another sibling. But that wasnt it,

that was their way of trying to give up the talk. So that was my exposure. Most of the

rest of the exposure that I got was listening to my friends, Playboy magazines, all that

stuff. The concept of homosexuality was never mentioned or never really came up in my

high school years. It was more of, we knew about homosexuality and we knew about

queers, and we teased each other as people normally do. But it wasnt that serious an

issue. I went to a small school over here in Lemon Springs, there was only 63 people in

my graduating class. I don't know that I knew anybody who was gay until I started

college.

There was something that got me curious. When I was probably in the fifth grade,

so whatever age that was, there was another boy in the apartment complex we were in.

This guy was maybe five or six years old, and he was openly soliciting other boys, that
he wanted to take them into a room and he said, I'll do this to you. I remember not

taking advantage of any of that, but I remember thinking, What's got him thinking

around those kinds of things? What's happening in his life thats got him oriented or

thinking that way?. I didnt pay a lot of attention to it, but as far as formation and stuff

goes I guess those were experiences that I am familiar with.

I met a guy in college I was a good friend with who turned out to be gay. At the

time, it I guess I made it a bigger deal than I thought it was. Over the years looking back

at it, I regret telling him, because basically I told him once I found out that we cant be

friends anymore. I didnt understand why we couldnt be friends anymore, just that all of

the sudden he had this stigma that was there. My appropriate reaction as I had been

taught was that I dont need to associate with this guy. Over the years, I'm sorry that I

have done that, because I think we could have still been good friends and come to

recognize and understand that just because someone has a certain preference to

gender or sexuality doesn't necessarily mean some of things that socially we are

conditioned or told this is going to mean.

For example, if a man is gay hes going to be soliciting or thinking about every

man he comes in contact with, same way with a woman. Thats not true. So culturally

thats where Im going, those are the things that shape me.
SA: Was it talked about at all, was the debate discussed by any of your professors in

divinity school? Or was it part of your curriculum at all?

TS;

No, not that I remember. What really got me thinking more about it is a friend of

mine whos another pastor. It was a woman, we started divinity school about the same

time. She challenged me on some questions that Id never really thought about. Shed

ask me something and Id throw out my standard tried-this opinion kind of stuff and

shed say, Well, have you ever considered this?. She actually got me thinking in a little

different mind frame than what I had been prior to divinity school. I cant say it was a

professor or a class that that did it, it was more just meeting this lady and interacting

with her and being challenged by some of the questions she was asking.

SA: Can you remember an example of something that she asked you?

TS:

It would be more in line of, as we started some of the discussion around the

LGBTQ issues were really getting started. I graduated in 2000, this was a while back.
Some of those issues were coming about, and she was a lot more open. She was a lot

more generous in her opinion and thinking.

An aside story, she's the first person who ever took me to a gay bar unbeknownst

to me. We finished our very first semester there at divinity school, and we decided to go

celebrate by finishing and having a beer somewhere together. She knew of this place

and she took myself and other colleagues who happened to be men. We all walk into

this place and it turned out it was a gay bar. Well we sit down, we had a beer, and we

left. I didnt catch on fire, nothing happened to me, it was just a normal place. It was the

middle of the afternoon too. She would just challenge my way of thinking. I can't name

any specific questions or anything that we dealt with, but if I made a statement that

wasn't quite whatever my statement was, she was able to sit there and shed ask me a

question that, wait a minute, I have to think about this. Those kinds of responses.

SA: Over the course of your experience, so probably the past 25 years of your being a

pastor, how do you think the debate has changed within the church?

TS:
 Well I think personally in some areas it has become a lot more accepted. 25

years ago, all this, I was really exposed to more, it was well the Book of Discipline says

this, the Bible says this, and this is where we stand. Ive noticed the door has opened

slowly but surely over that time. Theres a lot more talk and consideration being given

around it today than probably was back in those days.

SA: Do you consider that a good thing or just something thats happening, or a bad thing

for the church?

TS:

Well first off, my personal belief is that dialogue is always a good thing. As long

as you can talk about something, I personally believe the Holy Spirit works best in a

group dynamic. If youve got dialogue going, Scripture tells us where two or more

gathered in my name, Im there. When you've got a group of people talking about

something, and they're open and willing to actually engage in some dialogue, then the

Holy Spirit is free to let what is the truth, bubble up. So, I don't think it's a bad thing at all

that we have more dialogue about this at this point in time.

SA: Thank you. So, have you or in any of the churches that you have been a part of had

discussions about the debate in the church?

TS:

At my appointment before Solid Rock I was at Goldston United Methodist

Church. We had a young lady who came and she wanted to go to Iliff seminary and she

came in, she wanted to volunteer her time to help with the youth. Everything seemed to

be going wonderfully and all that until all of the sudden she walked into my office one

day and she said, I dont know if Ive told you this or not, I still want to work with the

youth, but Im a lesbian. What do I do with that?. We talked about it, we met with my

Staff-Parish-Relations Committee, and we agreed to let her continue serving in her

capacity. Just as long we knew about it, if any of the parents or anybody complained we

would be able to say we know about this and we trust her still. She's not out there trying

to quote turn people or change people, she still authentically representing Christ, and

we trust her. So at least we had that consensus to allow her to do that.

People that I talked to around having heard something, here this latest thing with

electing somebody, I think the Western Conference has elected a gay bishop. You're

always going to people who when they hear that theyre going to want to make a

judgement. So, I get to hear that kind of stuff and I get to hear the other people coming
out saying, Yeah, well you know if thats happening Im going to have to quit the

Methodist Church now, because theyre electing gay Bishops. Next thing you know

theyll be. You hear that. My first thought is, Wait a minute, have you really thought

about what's going on here, and why is this happening? Whats the back story?. I

believe the truth always has three sidesmy side, your side, and the truth is actually

somewhere in the middle. Thats the way I think it works.

SA: What do you think has allowed that kind of cooperation in the story that you

mentioned, being able to come to a consensus about how to handle the fact that you

had someone who was lesbian who wanted to work with the youth in your church? What

about your community or about the conversation that you had did you think allowed for

that consensus to take place?

TS:

I think honesty, first off. We had to agree to be honest with each other as far as

the dialogue went, and we had to make some certain rules when we started the

conversation to let everybody know, look, were going to be honest about this, were

going to talk about this. Were not going to condemn anybody about this, and this

conversations not going past the walls unless we all agree on it. So as long we had

ground rules, it freed us up to really be ourselves and talk about it.

SA: So, what, this is a similar question, but more personal. What values or aspects of

your faith do you particularly lean on when you are thinking about this debate or when

you are trying to facilitate a conversation?

TS:

If youve interviewed other Methodist pastors youve probably heard the term the

Wesley quadrilateral. Were taught to frame everything within Scripture, reason,

tradition, and experience. So, I look at it from that kind of perspective. I look at what

Scripture says. I see some definitive things in Scripture, I also see a lot of wiggle room

in Scripture. Then I look at experience and understand the tradition of the church, and

then say, Wait a minute, what does this really mean in that reason place?. So, I'm

aware of the arguments, the passages that everybody wants to lift up that are against

homosexuality and the passages they want to life up that may be an argument for

acceptance of homosexuality. I choose to stand as best I can on a couple of basic

tenets of Scripture, and then again what the discipline of the church says. As an

ordained elder I have promised my associates and my bishop that I would abide by the

rules that are in our Book of Discipline. Until those rules change Im abiding by the rules,
whether I agree with them or not. It doesnt mean I can't discuss or argue, or things like

that. I still abide by the rules, because thats what they are right now.

There are some things I think are very clear in Scripture, and some things are

muddy in Scripture and leaves it up to us. If were going to talk about the sexuality issue

and forgo all this other stuff, I think Scripture to me clearly mandates a biblical type of

marriage. If you look into Genesis where male and female were created and then he

created Adam and Eve and put them together to procreate, I believe there is a Biblical

model for marriage, and that is the man and woman for the purpose of procreation.

Does that mean that that other people can't have a committed relationship where they

love one another and all of that? No. It's just two people of the same sex want to marry

one another it's not, in my opinion, it is not biblical. The biblical model of marriage has

always been a man and a woman. That's something I can come back to and say with

certainty, this is where I see this. Everything else, up for discussion.

SA: One of the things I have noticed in talking with other pastors is that, many, not all,

but many are not satisfied with the language of discipline as it stands now in both

directions, either more traditionally or more progressively. They feel that it is not

comprehensive enough, and that on some of the few lines of statement that we have are

not enough to give the nuance to handling question about human sexuality. So, I was
wondering you had an opinion about that? If you felt that the discipline the way it is now

in is good and we should keep it that way or if there are places where more nuance

should be added?

TS:

When you say nuance that's the you're saying if Im understanding what you

mean by nuance right, the discipline talks about homosexuality being people of sacred

worth so maybe we should expand what were saying? Is that what you mean by the

nuances?

SA: Either that or the statement that says homosexuality is incompatible with Christian

teachings. Some people find that statement to be either too aggressive or not very

clear, and can be confused with the sacred worth passage that comes right before it.

Just wondering if you were satisfied with the way it is that way.

TS:
 If anything, I would prefer us not to expand the language, maybe to shrink it

down a little bit more. Homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. What

does that mean? When we have a statement like that and we say it, that gives

everybody reading it a broad brush to go in and pick and choose whichever passage or

whatever they want to justify their particular point of view. Homosexual people are

people of sacred worth? To me thats, okay, Im a person of sacred worth too, everybody

is of sacred worth. If anything, I think I would shrink the language a little bit to try and get

rid of that invitation for bias to step in. Does that make sense?

SA: If you could speak to or ask a question of someone who has a different viewpoint

than yours of this debate, and this can be one of many viewpoints, what question would

you ask them?

TS:

Someone who has a different viewpoint of thisWhat right do they have to

exclude someone or include someone in the church? What right do they have to make

that pronouncement based on what our Book of Discipline says or even what Scripture

says? Again, like I said, some things are clear and some things are muddy. That would
be my question. What right do you have? Justify, youre coming to me, you're making

these statements, justify to me why you're doing this. Lets talk about it.

SA: So, I asked this question of some of the other pastors that Ive spoken to. One of

them asked, and this may have a different question for you because as you mentioned

this doesnt come into play a lot in your day-to-day workings in the church. But from the

discord thats coming at the higher levels of the church and the consequences that may

come from change or not change in any direction, the future is very unclear. What is at

stake for you in this debate?

TS:

What is at stake for me in this debate? Well just in the strategic practical, one of

the things you worry about it is there would be a split. If there's a split then you know Ive

got to decide, Ive got to make a choice. Maybe I'm wrong, a lot of people tell you the

only thing you find in the middle of the road is dead possums. I dont know, around this

issue I have different thoughts and opinions that come up, and that I'm still open to say,

Wait a minute, if youve got an argument, let me hear and it might change my

perspective even more one way or another. So, if whats at stake is in all honesty I

would be put in a position where Id actually have to make a choice, and then to realize
all the ramifications that happen once you make that choice. I dont want to exclude

anyone.

I had a friend in seminary that used to say, Some of my friends feel this way

about it, some my friends feel this way about it. Im with my friends. Thats kind of my

stance. I dont want to be one to have to pronounce judgment on it, and I'm afraid that if

some of these changes were to happen I may have to get to that place. I dont think I'm

ready.

SA: thank you. So that concludes my official set of questions. Is there anything else

you'd like to say or that you wish I had asked you?

TS:

No, not right off the bat. I'll share with you a couple of other things that have

played a part in my wondering about this issue and everything. I have a cousin that lives

out in California who recently married his partner, James, theyve been married two or

three years now. But theyve been together over 20 years in a committed, monogamous

relationship one with each other, been together for over 20 years. I have to ask myself

when I think of them, what right have I got to judge them to say that they're not qualified
to enjoy loving one another and all of that. So that shaped my thinking and opinion on

some of this stuff. There's that's that family member aspect.

It's funny to me, it seems that a lot of people who are homosexual who have been

invited to churchIll give you a for example. When I came to Solid Rock I had an

obviously gay couple the congregation and one of liked to do music. He came to me and

gave me a CD that he had mixed himself. He wanted to know if I would allow him to do a

concert in the church to maybe raise money for the food pantry or something. So, I

listened to the CD, and what was on the CD was just contemporary Christian music by

various artists that he had taken their songs, played them as they recorded them, and

just layered a little bit of his stuff over them so there was nothing really original about it,

he was just playing along with some other stuff. I came back to him and said, Look, do

you have any music in you that God has given to you just for you?, and he said, Yeah

Ive done some songs. So, I said, Why don't you go ahead and write those up and get

them, I dont mind you coming and doing a show, but I would rather you do something

straight from your heart, something that is authentically you, than for you to be doing

what you put on this CD. I did not tell him no, but he was offended by that and actually

stopped coming to church. I've heard through some other sources since then that he felt

like I was not tolerant of his lifestyle. What I said had nothing to do with his lifestyle. I

dont know.
 I had a couple ladies at the first church I was the associate at, they were a

lesbian couple. We were trying to accept them, and it almost seemed like they are the

ones that put up the barriers to keep the rest of us from accepting them. Nobody had a

problem with coming to church, trying to fit in, and talking to people. I don't know, they

may have, some of the people in church may have mentioned something. These two

ladies they came for a while and then next thing I knew they left and it was because they

were not accepted. I never saw any evidence of them not being accepted.

At the same time, there were these two other ladies that had been rumored for

years and years to be a lesbian couple. They're still very active in the church, both

joined the church, and do a whole lot in the church. No one says a word to them and

theyre fine about it. Youve just got to shake your head.

SA: Thank you very much.

TS: Youre welcome and I hope Ive helped a little bit here.

SA: Absolutely.

TS: Alright.