Julie Scott Diss PDF

Orff Schulwerk Teacher Educators Beliefs about Singing
by
Julia Kay Scott
Submitted in Partial Fulfillment
of the
Requirements for the Degree
Doctor of Philosophy
Supervised by
Professor Donna Brink Fox
Department of Music Education
Eastman School of Music
University of Rochester
Rochester, New York
2010
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Curriculum Vitae
Julia Kay Scott was born in Sulphur Springs, Texas on January 20, 1960, the
daughter of Martha Harred and James Burford Scott. After earning a Bachelor of
Music degree in music education at Southern Methodist University (SMU) in 1982,
she taught elementary school music in the Carrollton-Farmers Branch Independent
School District from 1983 to 1993. She completed a Master of Music degree in music
education at SMU in 1996, and returned to teaching elementary students from 1996 to
2002at Holy Trinity Catholic School in Dallas for one year, and in the Mesquite
Independent School District for five years. During that time, Scott began work on a
Ph.D. in music education at the University of North Texas (UNT). From 2001 to
2004, she was Lecturer in Music Education at SMU, while continuing her doctoral
studies at UNT. In fall, 2004, she moved to Rochester, NY, where she had been given
the opportunity to complete her doctoral studies at Eastman School of Music (ESM)
at the University of Rochester and to teach classes to undergraduate music education
students. She served as Assistant Professor (Teaching) of Music Education at ESM
during the 2005-2006 school year, while completing the coursework and qualifying
exams for the Ph.D. Upon returning to Dallas in the summer of 2006, Scott assumed
the position as Coordinator of Elementary Music for the Richardson Independent
School District for two years. In fall, 2008, she accepted the position of Lecturer in
Music Education at SMU. Scott currently serves as President of the American Orff-
Schulwerk Association.
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Acknowledgements
So many people have supported and encouraged me along the long path of
completing this degree. I am grateful to them all, especially these:
Donna Brink Fox, my dissertation advisor, for her encouragement, invaluable
guidance, and countless hours of listening and editing time. She was consistently fast
to read my latest version and send comments to me. When I was too close to the work
to see the big picture, she brought crystal clear clarity to it.
My committee members, Susan Conkling and Melina Esse, for the time they
spent making edits on this paper. Special thanks to Susan for sending me in the
direction of research on teacher belief. It was the right path.
Ron Siebler, my husband, for supporting me over and over in this process,
even to the point of letting me go to live in Rochester for two years. I am thankful to
him for putting up with my tears and for encouraging me when I doubted I could
finish this degree.
My mother, Martha Scott, who, when I was trying to decide whether to
make the temporary move all the way to Rochester, New York; quit my job; and
temporarily leave my home said, If I were you, I would do it! She was outgoing,
courageous, and determined. Im glad I inherited some of those traits from hernot
to mention my love of music and education.
My Orff Schulwerk friends and colleagues, some who were the participants
in this study; and others, who so kindly sent me their articles, dissertations, and
theses.
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Abstract
Orff Schulwerk is defined by its practitioners as an approach to teaching
music to children through the Orff media: speech, singing, movement, and playing
instruments. The approach is often best known for use of the Orff instruments, and
some music educators criticize Orff-based instruction, claiming that singing is
overlooked or deemphasized in the Schulwerk.
The American Orff-Schulwerk Association (AOSA) approves teacher
education courses in Orff Schulwerk, which are offered through universities, school
districts, or local chapters of AOSA. In order to become certified in Orff Schulwerk,
teachers must complete levels of these courses. One of the main criteria for
approval by AOSA is that the instructors for the course have met certain standards,
thereby being qualified for inclusion in the list of AOSA-approved teacher educators.
The purpose of this study was to examine Orff Schulwerk teacher educators
beliefs about of singing. The research questions addressed (1) pedagogical and
curricular priority beliefs; (2) self-concept beliefs; (3) efficacy beliefs, and (4) larger
belief systems (Pajares, 1992). The study used qualitative inquiry in the form of
open-ended interviews conducted with eight AOSA-approved Orff Schulwerk teacher
educators from the United States. Line-by-line coding of the transcripts was
employed to discern important words and phrases used in the interviews. The coded
words were categorized to address the research questions. Quotes from the interviews
were cited as evidentiary warrants to support the claims.

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The findings of the study indicate that singing, as one of the Orff Schulwerk
media, is important to the approach; however, the ways in which singing is
incorporated and prioritized in Orff Schulwerk varies according to the ability level of
the students. Although several of the participants believed that they do not have good
singing voices, they were able to overcome those feelings of inadequacy to arrive at a
philosophical belief that everyone should participate in the act of singing. The
participants beliefs were greatly influenced by early experiences with family singing
and by collegiate experiences with the Orff Schulwerk approach.
Recommendations for Orff Schulwerk teacher education are proposed, along
with suggestions for further study.

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Table of Contents
Chapter 1 Introduction 1
1.1 The Orff Schulwerk Media 2
1.2 Teacher Education in Orff Schulwerk 4
1.3 Fundamental or Overlooked? 9
1.4 Purpose and Orienting Questions 12
1.5 Situating Myself in the Role of Researcher/Insider 13
Chapter 2 Review of the Literature 14
2.1 Research on Orff Schulwerk Practice 14
2.1.1 Studies with Orff Schulwerk Practitioners as Subjects 15
2.1.2 Studies that Examine Singing in Orff Schulwerk 19
2.2 Research on Teacher Belief 21
2.2.1 A Construct of Teacher Belief 21
2.2.2 Beliefs of Preservice Teachers 23
2.2.3 Beliefs of Music Teachers 25
2.3 Summary of the Review of Literature 26
Chapter 3 Methods and Procedures 29
3.1 Research Design 29
3.1.1 Research Participants 30
3.1.2 Interviewing 33
3.1.3 Coding Analysis 36
3.1.3.1 Open Coding 36

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3.1.3.2 Categorizing the Codes: Round 1 37
3.1.3.3 Categorizing the Codes: Round 2 40
3.2 Relating to the Research Questions 44
Chapter 4 Pedagogical and Curricular Priority Beliefs about Singing 45
4.1 Pedagogical Beliefs: Purposes of Singing 45
4.1.1 Singing to Learn a Musical Concept 46
4.1.2 Singing as a Tool 46
4.1.3 Singing for the Joy of Singing 47
4.1.4 Singing as a Separate Thing 48
4.1.5 The Orff Process 50
4.2 Curricular Priority Beliefs: Differences by Ability 50
4.2.1 Singing More Frequently with Beginning Students 52
4.2.2 Singing Less Frequently with More Advanced Students? 53
Chapter 5: Efficacy Beliefs about Singing 55
5.1 Students Reluctance to Sing 56
5.1.1 Establishing a Singing Culture 56
5.1.2 Repertoire Choice 57
5.2 My Students Take to Choir Like Its Birthday Cake and Ice Cream 57
5.3 Making a Conscious Effort to Include Singing 59
5.4 Credibility 61
Chapter 6 Self-Concept Beliefs about Singing 63
6.1 Early Influence of Family 64

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6.2 Not the Best Singer 66
6.2.1 I Was Mostly an Instrumentalist 66
6.2.2 Cutting My Teeth on Voice Lessons 68
6.2.3 Highfalutin Music with the Third-String Sopranos 69
6.2.4 Even Singers Question Their Abilities 70
6.2.5 But I Love to Sing! 70
6.3 Roberts Case as an Exemplar 71
Chapter 7 Larger Belief Systems 73
7.1 Actively Involved: Choice, Freedom, and Creativity 74
7.1.1 Taking Ownership of the Learning 74
7.1.2 Permission to Explore Any Avenue 75
7.1.3 Not My Choice 76
7.2 First and Foremost, I Am an Orff Schulwerk Teacher 77
7.2.1 Expectations 77
7.2.1.1 I Thought I Was Going to Be a Band Director 78
7.2.1.2 Preservice Teacher Experience 79
7.2.1.2.1 General Music Methods 79
7.2.1.2.2 College Observations 80
7.2.1.2.3 Student Teaching 80
7.2.2 Orff Schulwerk Trumps Choice 81
7.2.2.1 Varying Ability and Preference 81
7.2.2.2 Everybody Gives It a Try 82

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7.2.2.3 Joy and Beauty 83
7.2.2.3.1 Orff Schulwerk Isnt Fluff 84
7.2.2.4 We Dont Compete 84
7.3 Positioning Teacher Beliefs 85
7.3.1 Pedagogical and Curricular Priority Beliefs 85
7.3.1.1 Pedagogical Beliefs: Actively Involved 86
7.3.1.2 Curricular Priority Beliefs: Actively Involved 87
7.3.2 Efficacy Beliefs: Actively Involved 87
7.3.3 Self-Concept: Nested in Larger Beliefs about First and 88
Foremost, I Am an Orff Schulwerk Teacher
Chapter 8 Conclusions and Recommendations 89
8.1 Summary of the Study 89
8.2 Drawing Connections: Revisiting the Review of the Literature 92
8.2.1 Research on Teacher Belief 92
8.2.1.1 Beliefs Are Formed Early 93
8.2.1.2 Belief Change 94
8.2.1.3 College Student Beliefs 94
8.2.2 Studies on Orff Schulwerk 96
8.2.2.1 Studies with Orff Schulwerk Practitioners 96
8.2.2.2 Studies that Examine Singing in Orff Schulwerk 100
8.3 Recommendations for Further Study 101
8.4 Recommendations for Music Teacher Education 103

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8.4.1 Voice Classes for Instrumentalists 103
8.4.2 Orff Schulwerk Teacher Education 104
8.5 Final Thoughts 107
References 110
Appendix A Transcript of Interview with Janet 117
Appendix B Transcript of Interview with Joanna 145
Appendix C Transcript of Interview with Julian 177
Appendix D Transcript of Interview with Kelly 204
Appendix E Transcript of Interview with Libby 231
Appendix F Transcript of Interview with Peter 259
Appendix G Transcript of Interview with Robert 289
Appendix H Transcript of Interview with Sarah 315
Appendix I Examples of Coded Transcripts 330
Appendix J Codes from Transcripts 331
Appendix K Coding Charts on Walls 366
Appendix L Categories with Quotes 368

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List of Tables
Table Title Page
1 Participant Information 30
2 Interview Questions for the Study 34
3 Initial Categories 40
4 Initial and Final Categories 43

CHAPTER 1: INTRODUCTION
As an Orff Schulwerk teacher who often spent time in circles of those who
were skeptical of the Orff approach, I was used to being on the defensive. Orff
teachers dont teach singing well was one of the frequent accusations I heard. I took
this criticism personally because, in addition to being an Orff Schulwerk teacher, I am
a choral director whose first instrument is voice. I argued that singing was one of the
integral components of the Schulwerk: The Orff media are speech, singing,
movement and dancing, and playing instruments. I explained that we sing all the
timeplaying singing games and accompanying ourselves on instruments as we sing
songs. I pointed out that, in her discussion of accompanying call (So-Mi) and
chant (So-Mi-La) melodies, Gunild Keetman, Carl Orffs long-time colleague and
collaborator wrote, Pay attention to the soft playing of accompaniments so that the
singing can come through more strongly (1974, pp. 63-64). Orff Schulwerk expert
Brigitte Warner (1991) wrote, It is important that singing always precede playing
(p. 81). My colleagues were not swayed. Teaching children to sing well, they said,
did not appear to be a priority in Orff Schulwerk.
In 2003, I attended a national conference of the American Orff-Schulwerk
Association (AOSA), 1 where I heard three childrens Orff ensembles perform. While
the movement and instrumental playing were precise, artistic, and musical, the
1
The hyphen in Orff-Schulwerk is used in the United States only in certain instances: in the name of
the organization mentioned here, in the titles of books published by Schott Music Corporation, and in
some American publications prior to 1988. Since that time, Schott has held a copyright on the
hyphenated version of Orff Schulwerk (Shamrock, Foreword, 1995).
2
singing was sometimes performed with poor tone quality and intonation. It was as if
less attention had been paid to the production of the vocal sound. For the first time, I
wondered whether my colleagues criticism might be valid. Do Orff Schulwerk
teachers place as much emphasis on the teaching of singing as they do on the teaching
of speech, movement, and playing instruments? Is there a hierarchy of ways to make
music in Orff Schulwerk?
The Orff Schulwerk Media
According to the Guidelines for Orff Schulwerk Teacher Training Courses
(1997), Orff Schulwerk offers a spectrum of experiences including singing, playing
instruments, speech used as a musical medium, and movement as an equal partner
with music (p. v). Orff Schulwerk allows children to make music in a variety of
ways, typically enabling each child to be successful in at least one music-making
medium, while developing and improving in others.
The materials used for each of the Orff Schulwerk performance media are
elemental in nature. According to Carl Orff:
Elementary music is never music alone but forms a unity with movement,
dance and speech. It is music that one makes oneself, in which one takes part
not as a listener but as a participant. It is unsophisticated, employs no big
forms and no big architectural structures, and it uses small sequence forms,
ostinato and rondo. Elementary music is near the earth, natural, physical,
within the range of everyone to learn it and to experience it, and suitable for
the child. (1983, p. 6)

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Speech materials generally include nursery rhymes, chants, and poetry, whereas
songs include calls and chants, singing games, folk songs, and composed songs that
are suitable for children. Pieces for body percussion, unpitched percussion
instruments, Orff instruments, and recorder make up the instrumental pieces that are
played by children. The pieces may be free-standing instrumental compositions or
accompaniments arranged for a melody that is played or sung. Often, melodies and
accompaniments evolve from improvisations. In addition, pieces often are learned on
one instrument and transferred to another. For example, a piece might be learned on
body percussion then transferred to hand drums. The pieces for movement and dance
in the Schulwerk are composed of interpretive, improvisational movement; dances
choreographed by the children and/or their teacher; and folk dances (Frazee, 1987,
2006; Shamrock, 1995; Steen, 1992).
Orff Schulwerk instructors are expected to teach students to sing, move and
dance, play Orff instruments, and play recorder. Goodkin (2004) wrote about the
challenge and the joy of being able to teach all of the media as an Orff Schulwerk
instructor:
The Schulwerk is a demanding discipline, asking for a minimal expertise in a
wide variety of art forms and media. Since each area alone deserves a lifetime
of study, no one can ever be an expert in this teaching style that requires them
all. It is indeed a distinct challenge for a trained musician to have to dance and
a trained dancer to have to play music, but it is also a great pleasure and one
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of the reasons why the work remains perpetually fresh. The Orff teacher is
always a beginner in one field or another. (p. 9)
Teacher Education in Orff Schulwerk
Music teachers become familiar with the Orff approach, and with the elements
of speech, singing, movement and playing instruments in the context of Orff
Schulwerk in a number of ways. University students may receive an introduction to
the Orff approach during undergraduate music teacher education. In-service music
educators sometimes attend one-day workshops conducted by Orff Schulwerk
clinicians. These venues provide perfunctory exposure to the approach; however,
teachers gain more in-depth knowledge through Orff Schulwerk teacher education
courses, sometimes called levels courses. Each of the three levels (I, II, and III)
requires a minimum of 60 clock hours of instruction, which traditionally are
completed during three summers, with 2-week classes each summer. Following a
students successful completion of the three levels, a university can confer
certification in Orff Schulwerk (AOSA, 1997).
Instructors for the teacher education courses must be approved by AOSA to
teach the levels courses. Criteria for being approved as a course instructor in basic
Orff Schulwerk are: (a) the individual has a baccalaureate degree in music or music
education; (b) the individual has taught Orff Schulwerk to children for a minimum of
five years, at least one of which must follow completion of Orff Schulwerk
certification; and (c) the individual has applied to, been accepted into, and completed
an apprenticeship during an AOSA-approved Level I Orff Schulwerk teacher

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education course (AOSA, 1997; 2008). One of the components of the apprenticeship
is to write an outline for the Level I teaching sequence, which includes examples of
student written assignments. Once an instructor successfully completes the
apprenticeship, he or she may begin teaching Level I the following summer.
Universities, school districts, or AOSA local chapters who wish to sponsor a
levels course apply to AOSA for approval. The approval process includes submission
of a course syllabus that must include the objectives laid out in the AOSA Guidelines
for Orff Schulwerk Teacher Training Courses Levels I, II, III (1997). Sixty required
hours of each level, as described in the Guidelines, must include 3 hours of basic
Orff Schulwerk, 75 minutes of movement instruction, and 60 minutes of recorder
instruction every day. Topics for the remaining time [are] determined by individual
courses (often referred to as Special Topics) (p. 5-2). According to the Guidelines,
basic Orff Schulwerk is composed of (a) musicianship; (b) music theory; (c)
principles of orchestration; (d) pedagogy; (e) instrumental playing techniques; (f)
improvisation; and (g) choral and vocal techniques (p. 5-2).
Expected outcomes are listed by level in the Guidelines for these areas:
speech, singing, instruments, arrangement and orchestration, literacy,
movement/dance, and pedagogy. Some of the outcomes for Level I are:
Speech. The student will demonstrate the ability to
1. speak a simple rhyme in 2/4 or 6/8 meter while performing a
simple body percussion ostinato as accompaniment; and

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2. use speech as an expressive musical event in composed and
improvised contexts.
Singing. The student will demonstrate the ability to
1. sing simple pentatonic song material (do-re-mi-sol-la and la-
do-re-mi-sol) accurately and appropriately for classroom
presentation;
2. improvise vocally in do and la pentatonic, using syllables,
numbers, or a neutral syllable;
3. sing a pentatonic ostinato accompaniment while someone else
sings the melody, and vice versa; and
4. sing a simple melody while performing an instrumental or
body percussion accompaniment.
Instruments. The student will demonstrate the ability to
1. play on soprano recorder, with characteristic tone quality:
a. diatonically from c1 to a2, including f-sharp and b-flat;
b. play scales, simple melodies, and improvisations in
three do pentatonic scales (C, F, G) and three la
pentatonic scales (a, d, e);
2. use body percussion to perform simple ostinati, compositions,
and improvisations in 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, and 6/8, including patterns
transferred from speech;

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3. play and improvise with non-pitched percussion instruments,
using correct playing techniques; and
4. play on barred instruments, 2 simple ostinati, melodies, and
improvisations in three do pentatonic scales (C, F, G) and three
la pentatonic scales (a, d, e), using correct playing techniques
(p. 4-1)
Outcomes for movement and dance are also presented:
Movement/Dance. The student will demonstrate
1. a working knowledge of a basic movement/dance vocabulary
and the elements that vary movement;
2. ability to express elements of time (pulse, meter, rhythm
pattern) in movement;
3. ability to create and execute small forms that integrate speech,
music, and movement; and
4. an awareness of the role of movement/dance in Orff
Schulwerk. (p. 4-2)
The required written assignments for Level I courses are described in the
Guidelines under the Arrangement and Orchestration section as follows:
Arrangement and Orchestration. The student will demonstrate ability to
2
The terms Orff instruments and barred instruments are synonymous. They refer to the
xylophones, metallophones, and glockenspiels of the Orff instrumentarium.
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1. develop a small composition using ostinato accompaniments
(speech, unpitched 3 percussion);
2. transfer a simple speech piece to body percussion 4 or non-
pitched percussion;
3. transfer a simple body percussion composition to pitched or
non-pitched percussion instruments;
4. develop a layered accompaniment for a pentatonic melody,
using simple bordun 5 plus pitched and non-pitched ostinati;
and
5. construct the four types of simple bordun and use them
appropriately in an orchestration (pp. 4-1 to 4-2)
Drawing from the information listed in the Guidelines, we can deduce that,
with regard to the four Orff Schulwerk media:
1. Speech is taught within the context of basic Orff Schulwerk instruction. At
least two assignments involving speech are required (see 1 and 2 under the
required written assignments).
2. Singing also is taught during basic Orff Schulwerk instruction; however,
there is no written assignment required for singing. Although the pentatonic
melody assignment (see 4 under the required written assignments) could be
3
The terms unpitched percussion and non-pitched percussion are used interchangeably in Orff
Schulwerk.
4
Body percussion, which consists of stamping, patting, clapping, and snapping, is considered one of
the instruments in the Orff instrumentarium.
5
The bordun is created by playing the tonic and the dominant (scale degrees 1 and 5) of a given key on
the Orff instruments.
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sung, the melody could just as easily be played on an Orff instrument or on
recorder.
3. Movement is taught as a separate class for 75 minutes per day (p. 5-2).
Although there is no assignment required for movement class, there is specific
time devoted each day to individual, small group and large group work with
the guidance of an instructor.
4. Instruments that are required to be played in an Orff Schulwerk Teacher
Education Course include body percussion, non-pitched percussion, Orff
instruments, and recorder. One or two assignments (see 2 and 3 under the
required written assignments) are required to incorporate body percussion.
Two to four assignments must include non-pitched percussion (see 1-4 under
the required written assignments). At least two assignments (see 4 and 5
above) are required for Orff instruments. Although there are no specific
assignments for recorder, it is taught as a separate class for 60 minutes per
day (p. 5-2), often with an instructor who specializes in playing and teaching
recorder.
Fundamental or Overlooked?
From the Guidelines, we can deduce that singing is an integral part of Orff
Schulwerk. As one of the Orff Schulwerk media, specific outcomes are listed for
singing in the Guidelines, alongside speech, instruments, and movement. In fact, there
is a strong statement about the importance of singing in the curriculum section of the
Guidelines:
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In the Orff Schulwerk approach, singing is recognized as fundamentalan
invaluable means of individual and group musical expression. Singing
requires and develops the highest degree of pitch sensitivity and security, thus
being essential in the development of total musicality. (1997, p. 1-5)
Carl Orff himself attested to the importance of singing when he described his work
with children and the Bavarian Radio programs as a new beginning:
The unit of music and movement, that young people [young adults] in
Germany have to be taught so laboriously, is quite natural to a child. It was
also clear to me what Schulwerk had so far lacked: apart from a start in the
Gntherschule we had not allowed the word or the singing voice its fully
rightful place. The natural starting point for work with children is the
childrens rhyme, the whole riches of the old, appropriate childrens songs.
The recognition of this fact gave me the key for the new educational work.
(1978, p. 214)
Yet, the professional literature on Orff Schulwerk raises questions about the
relative importance of singing, especially in relationship to playing instruments. In a
short essay titled About Singing: A Plea for the Vox Humana (1983), Hermann
Regner, first director of the Orff Institute, wrote:
Orff instruments seduce. It is good to play on them. The child accompanies
himself, adding to the melody the elements of rhythm and timbre. Many
people have gained decisive experience from playing elementary instruments.
This seduction, however, can lead to neglecting singing. Our goal should be
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a balanced combination of the childrens vocal and instrumental activities. (p.
93)
Jane Frazee, noted American Orff Schulwerk pedagogue and Past President of AOSA
amplified Regners plea when she stated:
Orff teachers agree that the voice is the primary melody instrument. Skill in
singing must be so carefully developed that children learn to respect their
voices as they would a violin, recorder, or any other instrument they might
study. Because it is so readily accessible, teachers tend to treat the voice more
casually than other instruments played by children. It is important that this
inequality of emphasis be righted [italics added]. . . . (1987, p. 20)
Although singing is an important medium, it is treated with less detail than the
other media in the Guidelines. Whereas dedicated class time or written assignments
are required for speech, playing instruments, and movement, neither is required for
singing. The integration of singing and the amount of time that is devoted to it are, in
large part, left up to the instructor. Perhaps this lack of specificity has led toward
perceptions that singing has been neglected in Orff Schulwerk.
Based on the Guidelines, instructors could choose to spend as much or as little
time on singing during the six-hour class day as they wish. Perhaps some instructors
believe that levels course participants have already learned how to sing and how to
teach singing in their undergraduate music education courses. Perhaps some believe
that, because of limited instructional time, emphasis should be placed on the
curricular components that are unique to the Orff approach (i.e. Orff instruments,
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movement, improvisation), rather than on singing. Perhaps some instructors believe
that they are ineffective as vocal models.
The writings of Carl Orff, contemporary American Orff Schulwerk expert
teachers, and the 1997 Guidelines for Orff Schulwerk Teacher Training Courses
indicate that the singing voice and childrens song are fundamental and invaluable in
the Schulwerk (AOSA, 1997; Orff, 1978). However, some Orff teachers indicate that
they are not confident about their singing voices (Goodkin, 2004), and some experts
in Orff Schulwerk believe that singing may be neglected, particularly in favor of
instrumental activities (Frazee, 1987; Regner, 1983).
In a seminal article on teacher belief, Kagan (1992) stated, the more one
reads studies of teacher belief, the more strongly one suspects that this piebald of
personal knowledge lies at the very heart of teaching (pp. 85-86). In a review of the
literature on teacher beliefs, Pajares (1993) concluded that individuals beliefs
strongly affect their behavior (p. 326). Therefore, we might frame the importance of
singing in Orff Schulwerk by understanding Orff teacher educators beliefs about
singing.
Purpose and Orienting Questions
The purpose of this study was to examine the beliefs of Orff Schulwerk
teacher educators about singing. Based on literature about the construct of belief
(Pajares, 1992) the following research questions were posed:
1. What do Orff Schulwerk teacher educators believe about teaching
singing?
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2. What do Orff Schulwerk teacher educators believe about the curricular
priority of singing?
3. What are Orff Schulwerk teacher educators efficacy beliefs about
singing?
4. What are Orff Schulwerk teacher educators self-concept beliefs about
singing?
5. How are Orff Schulwerk teacher educators beliefs about singing nested in
larger belief systems?
Situating Myself in the Role of Researcher/Insider
My interest in this study was related to my dedication to the Orff Schulwerk
approach of teaching music to children and to my passion for the development of the
best possible vocal skills each child can achieve. I am a certified Orff Schulwerk
teacher instructor and have taught in Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses in the
U.S. since 1993. In addition to being a past member of the National Board of AOSA,
I am currently the president of AOSA. I am acquainted with all of the Orff Schulwerk
teacher educators who participated in this study. Furthermore, I am dedicated to
choral music, having sung in university choirs, church choirs, and in a professional
choral ensemble. I have served as a childrens choir director in church and school
settings.
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CHAPTER 2: REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE
This review of relevant research is presented in two major sections. The first
includes articles from research journals, dissertations, and theses on Orff Schulwerk
practices. Because the present study focuses on Orff Schulwerk teacher educators
beliefs about singing, I limited the Orff Schulwerk review of literature to studies of
Orff practitioners who had completed at least one level of teacher education, and
studies that examined singing in Orff Schulwerk. The second major section includes
research literature on teacher beliefs.
Research on Orff Schulwerk Practice
A website titled Research Studies in Orff Schulwerk was established by
Wang, Abril, Johnson, and Sogin in 2007. This website includes research articles,
presentations, dissertations, and theses. The materials annotated in the Webliography
are limited to studies that relate both directly and indirectly to the Orff Schulwerk
approach to music education completed with accepted research methodologies
including historical, philosophical, and empirical studies that are quantitative or
qualitative inquiries (Wang, Abril, Johnson, & Sogin, 2007). Although there are a
few examples of historical and philosophical research, the majority of studies
annotated in the Webliography are descriptive and experimental studies that employ
quantitative data. Nevertheless, there are several studies that employ ethnographic
methods.
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Studies with Orff Schulwerk Practitioners as Subjects
Beegle (2001) studied improvisation in Orff Schulwerk classes with children,
examining its use in teaching practice, purpose, approaches for addressing
developmental levels, assessment, pedagogic techniques, achievement standards, and
student response. Three Orff Schulwerk teachers, each of whom had completed Level
III, participated in the study. The data collected were notes and transcripts from two
interviews (one before and one after the observations) and four classroom
observations. Beegle found that Orff Schulwerk teachers do include improvisation in
their instruction and that they value improvisation as an opportunity for their students
to express themselves individually.
Robbins (1994) followed the progress of music teachers over a two-year
period as they completed summer Orff Schulwerk education courses at Eastman
School of Music. A cooperative group of six teachers kept journals during their
teaching, and formulated questions that examined changes in themselves and in their
students. The cooperative met together several times during the two years, and their
project became known as Orff SPIEL (Schulwerk Project: Implementing
Eastmans Levels). By the end of the study, the participants understood more about
Orff pedagogy through their interaction with each other. They also believed the
learning community they had established together was powerful, and it made them
feel validated as professionals.
There have been several studies conducted in which the subjects were Orff
Schulwerk teacher education instructors, or in which the subjects were described as

16
expert, exemplary, or recognized Orff practitioners (OHehir, 2005; Sogin &
Wang, 2004, 2008; Taylor, 2004; Wang & Sogin, 2004). With the goal of developing
an operational definition of Orff Schulwerk, OHehir (2005) formulated 118
statements drawn from the Guidelines for Orff Schulwerk Teacher Training Courses
Levels I, II, III (1997). The Guidelines were analyzed and reformatted into a
numbered list of sentences, each of which could be a descriptor of an [Orff
Schulwerk] practice or belief (p. 82). These statements were organized into
categories patterned after Bennett Reimers Model for a Total Curriculum.
OHehir surveyed 71 expert Orff Schulwerk practitioners to determine their
agreement or disagreement with the 118 statements. There were 94 statements with
which at least 90% of the respondents agreed. OHehir labeled these statements as
best practices. Nine of the 94 best practices statements were related to singing.
(Items are numbered as they appear in the original source.)
One hundred percent of the respondents agreed that:
1. OS offers a spectrum of experiences including singing, playing
instruments, movement, and speech used as a musical medium.
29. The singing voice is valued as the musical instrument we are born with
and carry with us at all times.
88. The teacher selects appropriate keys to support the vocal range and
quality of students singing.
These statements were identified as best practices by 98% of the respondents:
28. Singing is fundamental to developing pitch sensitivity.

17
90. Teacher models correct singing technique.
Ninety-seven percent of the respondents agreed that:
30. Singing is used to develop experience and knowledge of musical
elements.
32. One purpose of playing instruments is to enhance and support singing.
62. The components of an OS curriculum include singing, playing
recorder, pitched and un-pitched percussion, speech and rhythm
exercises, and movement.
Ninety-four percent concurred that:
103. There is a balanced combination of childrens vocal and instrumental
activities.
The data that were collected by OHehir resulted in [a]n instrument to rate the
presence of OS best practices in a particular setting (p. 99), which she entitled The
Orff-Keetman Curriculum Implementation Scale.
Sogin and Wangs (2004) research examined the recorder techniques, Orff
process, pedagogy, and recorder literature that were used by instructors during the
recorder component of an Orff Schulwerk Teacher Education course. Their goal was
to document how the adult students, who were beginning recorder players, acquired
the skills necessary to play and teach recorder by the end of the levels course. To
obtain data for their study, the authors analyzed recorder lesson plans, music played
in the recorder lessons, teaching strategies, and progress of the adult students as they
played recorder. Sogin and Wang concluded that these recorder lessons in each
18
teacher-training level not only provided teachers with the highest skills they can
obtain in playing the recorder,they [also] offer strategies of teaching recorder to
children in a sensory-rich environment of the Orff process (p. 11).
Another study by Wang and Sogin (2004) involved 28 exemplary Orff
Schulwerk instructors interactions with their students. Video recordings revealed that
activities during lessons included playing Orff instruments, playing unpitched
percussion instruments, body percussion, rhythm speech, singing, and moving and
dancing. Often, two or more of these activities were performed simultaneously. The
researchers found that the majority of the instructional time was spent with the
teachers modeling and talking. Teachers used rote instruction to model movement
activities and songs, and they gave spoken instructions to facilitate the learning.
Taylor (2004) used systematic analysis in his observations of eight
recognized Orff Schulwerk instructors. These instructors had completed Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses ranging from Level I to certification as an
AOSA-approved teacher educator. For the study, Taylor identified teacher targets:
goals and instructions for improvement provided to the students before, during, or
between performances of a piece for percussion instruments. The results showed that
the most prevalent teacher targets were in the categories of technique (24.8%), pulse
(17.2%), note accuracy (12.7%), and dynamics (12.1%). Of the 622 targets that were
identified in 19 categories, 10 targets (1.6%) were related to singing. The same
teacher in the study identified all 10 of those targets (pp. 138, 127). The one example
19
that Taylor gave of a target instruction related to singing was, Sing the names of the
notes while you play your xylophones (p. 122).
Studies that Examine Singing in Orff Schulwerk
Other studies that employ Orff Schulwerk teachers as the subjects focus on
how Orff practitioners approach teaching a specific medium or skill related to Orff
Schulwerk. Based on the entries in the Webliography, improvisation appears to be the
most researched of all the Orff Schulwerk topics (Amchin, 1995; Beegle, 2001;
Brophy, 1998, 2005; Flohr, 1980; Guibalt, 2004; Hamilton, 1999; Martin, 1992;
Parisi, 2004; Peterson, 2000). Three studies investigate singing (Muse, 1994; Sogin &
Wang, 2008; Wang & Sogin, 1997).
Muses (1994) study employed a pre-test, post-test control group design to
determine whether there were differences between two methods of teaching primary-
aged students to sing a song with accurate pitch. One group was taught using
traditional textbooks, and the other group was taught using an Orff Schulwerk
approach. The researcher found no significant differences between groups.
In-service teachers attending a one-day Orff Schulwerk workshop were the
subjects of Wang and Sogins (1997) study. The researchers administered a
questionnaire to determine the amount of time teachers spent on given music
activities: creating, listening, reading, describing, playing, singing, and moving.
Subsequently, they observed and videotaped two classes for each of the 19 teachers
who had completed the questionnaire. Wang and Sogin found that the teachers
reported estimates of time they spent on each activity were higher than the actual
20
amount of time they spent on each activity during the videotaped classes. For
example, although 85% of the teachers estimated that they spent 35-100% of their
instructional time on singing, singing actually only accounted for 18.75% of their
class time. The largest amount of time was spent on movement (26.14%), followed by
singing (18.75%), and playing instruments (16.27%) (p. 450).
Although it is not currently included in the Webliography, Sogin and Wang
(2008) conducted a follow-up to their 1997 study. The researchers again administered
a questionnaire, this time to participants in Levels I, II, and III of an Orff Schulwerk
Teacher Education course (n=49). The participants were asked to estimate the
percentage of time they spent on activities in several categories: reading music,
listening to music, singing, describing music, playing instruments, creating and
improvising, moving to music, and others. Sixty-five percent of the teachers who
had completed Level I reported allotting at least 35% of class time to singing, while
83% of the teachers who had completed Level II and 70% of the teachers who had
completed Level III reported similar allotments. Orff teachers often say that singing
is their most important component in elementary music and the results of this study
support that notion (p. 274). One finding of the study is that more experienced Orff
teachers (Levels II and III) allotted at least 35% of their class time to playing
instruments, whereas 71% of the less experienced (Level I) teachers allotted 20% or
less of class time to playing instruments. This finding suggests that participation in an
Orff teacher education course may increase teachers confidence in instrumental
instruction.
21
Research on Teacher Belief
If it is true that beliefs of Orff Schulwerk teacher educators influence how
singing is taught in Orff Schulwerk levels courses, then an examination of the
construct of teacher belief is necessary. Pajares drew a definition of belief from his
review and synthesis of articles on teacher beliefs prior to 1992. He concluded that
belief is a social construction, which includes enculturation, formal and informal
education, and schooling. Richardson (1996) defined beliefs as psychologically held
understandings, premises, or propositions about the world that are felt to be true (p.
103). Beliefs are based on memory and previous experience, and beliefs that are
formed early in life are highly resistant to change (Pajares, 1992; Richardson, 1996).
A Construct of Teacher Belief
In a 1992 review and synthesis of the literature on teacher belief, Parajes
offered evidence that several assumptions could be reasonably made when initiating
a study of teachers educational beliefs (p. 324). Among these are the following nine
items, which were chosen based on their relevance to the current study. The items are
numbered as they appear in the original source:
1. Beliefs are formed early and tend to self-perpetuate, persevering even against
contradictions caused by reason, time, schooling, or experience.
2. Individuals develop a belief system that houses all the beliefs acquired
through the process of cultural transmission.
3. The belief system has an adaptive function in helping individuals define and
understand the world and themselves.

22
4. Knowledge and beliefs are inextricably intertwined, but the potent affective,
evaluative, and episodic nature of beliefs makes them a filter through which
new phenomena are interpreted.
5. Belief substructures, such as educational beliefs, must be understood in terms
of their connections not only to each other but also to other, perhaps more
central, beliefs in the system.
6. The earlier a belief is incorporated into the belief structure, the more difficult
is it to alter.
7. Belief change during adulthood is a relatively rare phenomenon, the most
common cause being a conversion from one authority to another or a gestalt
shift.
8. Individuals beliefs strongly affect their behavior.
9. Beliefs about teaching are well established by the time a student gets to
college (pp. 324-326).
A significant contribution to subsequent research on teacher belief was
Pajares statement that:
The construct of educational beliefs is itself broad and encompassing. For
purposes of research, it is diffuse and ungainly, too difficult to operationalize,
too context free. Therefore, as with more general beliefs, educational beliefs
about [italics in original source] are requiredbeliefs about confidence to
affect students performance (teacher efficacy), about the nature of knowledge
(epistemological beliefs), about causes of teachers or students performance

23
(attributions, locus of control, motivation, writing apprehension, math
anxiety), about perceptions of self and feelings of self-worth (self-concept,
self esteem), about confidence to perform specific tasks (self-efficacy). There
are also educational beliefs about specific subjects or disciplines (reading
instruction, the nature of reading, whole language). (p. 316)
Pajares concluded that findings suggest a strong relationship between
teachers educational beliefs and their planning, instructional decisions, and
classroom practices (p. 326). He argued that little will have been accomplished if
research into educational beliefs fails to provide insights into the relationship between
beliefs, on the one hand, and teacher practices, teacher knowledge, and teacher
outcomes on the other (p. 327).
Beliefs of Preservice Teachers
Most of the research on teachers beliefs has been conducted with preservice
teachers. Some of the main questions posed by this research are whether, when, and
to what extent preservice teachers beliefs can be changed. Tillema (2000) and Raths
(2001) explored constructionist views of teacher belief, suggesting that beliefs are
constructed alongside student teaching. Tillemas research challenged the notion of
reflection before practice teaching, proposing that reflection after classroom
experience may bring about belief change more effectively. Tillemas findings
suggest that, whether it occurs before or after reflection, practice immersion has a
primary and decisive effect upon the teachers building and construction of beliefs
which accompany and clarify their actual performance (p. 586).

24
Clift and Brady (2005) wrote a review of the research on the topics of teacher
education methods courses and field experiences. The authors examined not only
what research was conducted, but also who conducted the research and what claims
were made. At the outset, the authors stated their assumption that, Ones beliefs,
intentions, knowledge frames, and skills interact continuously in classroom teaching
(p. 313). Therefore, this review of literature highlighted the impacts of methods
courses and field experiences on preservice teachers beliefs and practices. Academic
content areas examined by Clift and Brady included English, mathematics, science,
and social studies. The authors also looked at selected research on Professional
Development Schools.
The findings of the studies in these content areas appear to be mixed on the
extent to which university methods courses and field experiences impact preservice
teachers beliefs and actions in the classroom. The authors state:
This research suggests that methods courses and field experiences can impact
prospective teachers thoughts about practice and in some instances actual
teaching practices, but that practicing ones beliefs is neither linear nor
simple. Awareness is growing of the importance of research on the factors that
enhance or inhibit planning and implementation of teaching based on ones
beliefswhether as a prospective teacher or as a teacher educator. (pp. 329-
330)
25
Beliefs of Music Teachers
Previous research on music teacher beliefs has been limited to beliefs about
the curricular standards to be taught in music class (Austin, Montgomery, McCaskill,
& Hanley, 1996); beliefs of preservice teachers with respect to various aspects of
teaching and learning music (Austin & Reinhardt, 1999; Barrett & Rasmussen, 1996;
Brand, 1982; Schmidt, 1998); preservice music teachers preconceived beliefs about
teaching (Thompson, 2000); preservice music teachers use of metaphor to describe
teacher roles (Thompson & Campbell, 2003); and Orff Schulwerk teachers beliefs
about the use of improvisation in their teaching (Beegle, 2001).
Thompsons (2000) study examined beliefs about teaching that freshmen
students bring into their music education studies. The author identified three
emerging themes regarding the college students beliefs about effective teaching: (a)
valuing the student and student empowerment, (b) predominance of the human aspect
of teaching over technical aspects, and (c) the desire for experience in learning to
teach, and an uncertainty about the role of the university in that process (pp. 181-
182).
In a later study, Thompson and Campbell (2003) presented preservice music
teachers with the task of using metaphor to describe the roles of teachers. General
categories that emerged from the preservice teachers metaphors were Teacher as
Transmitter, Teacher as Facilitator, Teacher as Collaborator, and Teacher as
Mentor, Motivator, and Leader (pp. 46-49). The authors reported that the students
26
use of metaphor seemed to be based on their intuition, personal beliefs, and past
experiences (p. 53).
Schmidts case study examined four student teachers definitions of good
teaching (1994). The study found that preservice teachers beliefs about good
teaching are potent and tenacious (p. 22), and that their pre-existent personal beliefs
of teaching and self meant the four student teachers learned different understandings
of good teaching (p. 22), even though they all attended the same university music
education courses Once the students began their student teaching, however, there was
congruence among their practices and beliefs, suggesting that the university methods
courses had some influence.
Summary of the Review of Literature
The literature reviewed for this study has included research on Orff Schulwerk
practices and research on teacher beliefs. The examinations of Orff Schulwerk
include two qualitative studies with adults as the subjects, one that examines how
Orff Schulwerk instructors teach and implement improvisation into their lessons
(Beegle, 2001). The other study looks at the impact of teachers participation in
cooperative group sessions as they begin to understand more about Orff pedagogy
(Robbins, 1994). Research on singing in the context of Orff Schulwerk is limited.
One report (Muse, 1994) found no significant differences in the results between Orff
Schulwerk and textbook approaches to the teaching of singing. Two other
examinations (Wang & Sogin, 1997; Sogin & Wang, 2008) employed questionnaires
to determine the amount of time teachers spent on given music activities. One of the
27
examinations (Wang & Sogin, 1997) followed up with videotaped observations of the
participants teaching students. Although teachers reported that singing was the
activity on which they spent the highest percentage of time in both studies, the
examination that included videotaped lessons found that the teachers spent less time
on singing than they had estimated. There are no indications in this research,
however, about how Orff teachers came to believe that singing is valuable in the
context of Orff Schulwerk.
Many studies that exist on teacher belief, regardless of academic content area,
examine the beliefs of preservice teachers. These examinations have sought to
determine whether the information, materials, and pedagogy presented in university
methods classes and field experiences are accepted, adopted, and incorporated into
the practices of new teachers. Clift and Brady (2005) have recently suggested in their
review of literature that beliefs of teacher educators may also influence the practices
of new teachers.
Research on teacher belief indicates that the instruction of singing in Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses may reflect practices that take place in Orff
Schulwerk classrooms with children (Kagan, 1992; Parajes, 1992; Clift & Brady,
2005). What we know about the practices of Orff Schulwerk teachers suggests that
they teach a wide variety of activities (Beegle, 2001; Sogin & Wang, 2004, 2008;
Wang & Sogin, 2004), sometimes in combination (Wang & Sogin, 2004). Although it
seems that Orff teachers intend to give significant weight to the teaching of singing
28
(Sogin & Wang, 2008; Wang & Sogin, 1997), they do not always spend as much time
on singing as they estimate (Wang & Sogin, 1997).
Although research on teacher belief suggests that what a teacher believes
affects her teaching practices, little research has been reported on in-service music
teacher beliefs. None of the research has examined music teachers or specifically,
Orff Schulwerk teacher educators, beliefs about singing. A study is needed to
ascertain what Orff Schulwerk teacher educators believe about singing. Such a study
may shed light on why, how, and to what extent teacher educators model the teaching
of singing in the teacher education courses they teach.

29
CHAPTER 3: METHODS AND PROCEDURES
Recall that the purpose of this study was to examine the beliefs of Orff
Schulwerk teacher educators about singing. The following research questions, based
on Pajares (1992) construction of teacher beliefs, guided the study:
singing?
singing?
singing?
Research Design
To uncover Orff Schulwerk teacher educators beliefs about singing, I
interviewed eight Orff Schulwerk teacher educators from the United States, all of
whom are currently engaged in teaching Orff Schulwerk to children, as well as to
adults. Qualitative interviewing was an appropriate method for this particular study,
because it elicited the participants natural language. Because all of the participants
were engaged as Orff Schulwerk teacher educators, I could begin to identify

30
similarities in language, and thus, I could make inferences about the beliefs of the
participants.
Research Participants
Since there are several variations on practices of Orff Schulwerk in the
United States, I intentionally selected teacher educators from a broad spectrum of
traditions and philosophies within Orff Schulwerk. Participants received their Orff
Schulwerk teacher education at New England Conservatory; University of St.
Thomas in Minnesota; Memphis State University; University of Northern Colorado;
University of Nebraska; and Hamline University in Minnesota. The interviewees
years of teaching Orff Schulwerk to children ranged from 13 to 37 years, and their
experience teaching adults in Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses ranged from
8 to 25 years. Short profiles of the subjects follow, and their information is
summarized in Table 1.
Table 1
Participant Information
Participant Gender Years Teaching Years Teaching Major

Children Adults Instrument in
College
Janet Female 37 20 Piano
Joanna Female 28 20 Voice
Julian Male 27 19 Piano
Kelly Female 13 8 French Horn
Libby Female 15 10 Voice/Viola
Peter Male 15 10 Piano
Robert Male 30 25 Piano
Sarah Female 28 25 Flute
31
Janet, whose primary instrument is piano, teaches middle school choral music
to grades 6, 7, and 8. Prior to this teaching position, she taught elementary general
music and piano lessons. She has taught children for 37 years and adults for 20 years.
Janet has served in leadership roles on the National Board of Trustees (NBT) of the
American Orff-Schulwerk Association (AOSA) in several capacities. She teaches
workshops and summer teacher education courses to adults throughout the U.S. on
the subjects of Orff Schulwerk and recorder pedagogy. Janet continues her work for
AOSA by serving on subcommittees.
Like Janet, Joanna has served on the NBT and as a subcommittee member.
She presents workshops to adults and teaches in summer courses at three universities,
specializing in Orff Schulwerk pedagogy and movement. In addition, Joanna has
studied and taught Orff Schulwerk internationally. She has been a teacher of children
for 28 years and adults for 20 years. Her primary instrument is voice.
Julian has taught music to children for 27 years and has been a teacher
educator for 19 years. Besides teaching Orff Schulwerk, he is an arranger of
childrens choral music. Julian has served on a subcommittee of AOSA, and he
presents workshops on Orff Schulwerk all over the U.S. He is an instructor for Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses at two universities. Julians primary instrument
is piano.
Kelly has the least teaching experience out of all the participants in this study.
She has taught children for 13 years and adults for 8 years. Kelly has served as a
Local Conference Chairperson for an AOSA national conference. She presents

32
workshops to adults and is an instructor for recorder and movement for two Orff
Schulwerk levels courses. Kellys primary instrument in college was French horn.
In addition to presenting workshops to adults on a regular basis throughout the
country, Libby teaches movement and basic Orff for two Orff Schulwerk teacher
education courses. She teaches music to children and is a part-time administrator at
her school. Libby has taught children for 15 years and adults for 10 years. She
currently serves on a subcommittee of AOSA. Libby began her undergraduate music
education degree with a concentration in viola, but later changed her concentration to
voice.
Peter, like Libby, has taught children for 15 years and adults for 10 years. His
primary instrument is piano. He teaches kindergarten through 5th grade music and has
a choir that meets before school. Peter teaches Level I and Level II of basic Orff
pedagogy at two universities. Peter will begin serving on an AOSA subcommittee
next summer.
Robert has taught children for 30 years at a private school, where he is head of
the music department. He has taught adults for 25 years, for both Orff Schulwerk
teacher education courses and as a workshop clinician. In addition, Robert teaches
music theory to freshman music majors at a state university. Currently, he teaches
basic Orff pedagogyLevel II and Level IIIat three universities. He has taught as
an invited clinician in four countries outside the United States. Roberts primary
instrument is piano.
33
Sarah teaches basic pedagogy, Level I and Level II, at two universities. She
has taught children for 28 years and adults for 25 years, having begun teaching
recorder in teacher education courses after only three years as an instructor of
children. Sarahs instrumental concentration as an undergraduate music education
major was flute.
Interviewing
The interviews began with what Brenner termed a grand tour question
(2006, p. 358), which is a general, open-ended inquiry. This question was followed
by minitour questions based on the relevant topics that emerged from the grand tour
question. I began the interviews with the following broad question, in order to
document the individual background of each participant: What are your earliest
memories of singing? Follow-up questions included those about the interviewees
experiences with singing in school and with family members, to determine their
background experiences with singing. Subsequent minitour questions inquired about
their experiences with teaching music to children, which included some questions
about singing. The final set of questions addressed their teaching of Orff Schulwerk
to adults. The interview questions are listed in Table 2.
Six of the interviews were conducted face-to-face. Locations for these
interviews included a university office, a dorm room on a university campus, and an
outdoor patio at a private residence. The other two interviews were conducted long
distance via Skype. In those two cases, both the interviewer and the interviewees
were located in their home offices. I recorded each interview using a digital
34
Table 2
Interview Questions for the Study
Ques. Singing Background

1. What are your earliest memories of singing?
2. What were your experiences with singing in school, church, or
community groups throughout your schooling (kindergarten through
college)?
3. Did you have vocal music or choir teacher in school? What do you recall
about the teaching and about those classes?
4. What was your primary instrument in college? Did you take voice lessons
or classes? What do you recall about those classes?
5. What was your favorite music education course in college? Why?
6. What was your least favorite music education class? Why?
7. What made you decide to take Orff Schulwerk levels courses? What was
the thing that most attracted you to Orff Schulwerk?
8. What kinds of things were your levels teachers particularly good at
teaching? Did they have weaknesses? If so, what were those weaknesses?
9. To what extent do you emulate your own levels teachers?
10. What kinds of singing experiences do you remember from the Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses you attended?
11. Do you remember preferring some activities over others in your levels
classes? Which ones?
Lets talk about your experiences with teaching music to children.
12. When you teach children, what are your favorite activities to teach? Why?
13. What are your least favorite activities to teach to children? Why?
14. Describe how you incorporate singing into your teaching of children.
15. On what factors do you base your decision on how you will incorporate
singing?
16. What are some examples of the music the children sing in your class?
17. Some of the research that I have read suggests that there are times when
Orff Schulwerk students just sing and other times when they sing in
combination with other Orff Schulwerk media. Is that the case in your
teaching? If so, what are some examples of how singing is taught by
itself? What are some examples of how singing is taught in combination
with other media?
18. What proportion of your teaching would you say is devoted to singing?
19. What activities do children seem to enjoy most when they are taught
through the Orff approach?
20. What activities do they seem to enjoy least?
21. Do the children in the classes you teach like to sing? Are they good at
singing? Why do you think this is so?
35
(Continued)
Lets talk about your experiences with teaching Orff Schulwerk to
adults.
22. How do you incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your levels
classes?
23. What are some examples of the music that adults in your levels classes
sing?
24. When you are teaching adults in levels courses, what are your
expectations for the kinds of musical knowledge and skills that these
music educators should already have when they begin the class?
25. In your experience with teaching adults, do you find that music educators
knowledge and skills are better or worse than they were 10 years ago?
Why do you think that might be so?
26. Based on your experience as an Orff teacher educator, what do you think
are the primary reasons that music educators enroll in an Orff course?
27. Typically, what are the adult students favorite activities? What are their
least favorite activities?
28. Have you ever met with resistance from the adult students to any of the
activities in your levels courses? Which activities do you believe they
resist most?
29. Is there anything you would like to add to our conversation?
recorder or an old-fashioned tape recorder. The tape recorded interviews were
converted from analog to digital format, and all of the audio files of the interview
were downloaded to my personal computer. The interviews were transcribed using
Mac Speech Dictate voice recognition software (Mac Speech, Inc., 2009). Initial
transcripts were not completely accurate, so I listened to each interview recording
again and edited the transcripts.
Data for the study were the written transcripts of the interviews. Erickson
(1986) discussed the transcription process at some length (pp. 129-141), suggesting
that the best model of transcribing fieldwork data is to make the process as
deliberative as possible, reflecting on what has been observed and written, and
36
making determinations about its meaning in retrospect (p. 140). The interviews of this
study were transcribed both by computer and by hand (Creswell, pp. 246-248). As I
transcribed, I began to get a better sense of the nature of each interview. I began to
notice similarities between the interviewees answers, even to the extent that they
sometimes used the same words and phrases in their answers to the interview
questions.
Coding Analysis
Open Coding
Brenner (2006) referred to coding, thematic analysis, identification of telling
incidents, and so on as the description process (p. 367). For me, the main focus of
this step involved open coding of the transcripts and forming initial notions about
possible themes. Bogdan and Biklen (1998) described the process of coding:
As you read through your data, certain words, phrases, patterns of behavior,
subjects ways of thinking, and events stand out. Developing a coding system
involves several steps: You search through your data for regularities and
patterns as well as for topics your data cover, and then you write down words
and phrases to represent these topics and patterns. These words and phrases
are coding categories. (p. 171)
I began by writing two headings at the top of each page of the transcripts:
Codes in the left margin of each interview transcript and Possible Themes in the
right margin. I also wrote the words Possible Quote in the right margin next to any
37
quote that struck me as a particularly good example of the theme that was beginning
to emerge. (See Appendix I for an example of a coded transcript.)
Next, I transferred every code and possible theme or category from the
transcripts to large charts for each of the eight interviewees. It was at that point that I
assigned each participant a color. The codes were written in the color I had assigned
to each participant, which, when collated later, allowed me to see how many of the
participants had given the same or similar response. In addition, I had not assigned
pseudonyms to the participants at that point, and the use of color, rather than name,
helped me to be more objective about the participants comments. (See Appendix J
for a complete list of the codes that were identified from the transcripts.) The charts
for each participant were posted on walls, so that I could see the total landscape of the
codes and begin to see patterns. While this step does not follow any prescribed model,
this visual immersion helped me begin the analysis. (See Appendix K for examples of
the coding charts on the walls.)
Categorizing the Codes: Round 1
I started identifying coded words and phrases that had begun to cluster
together based on commonalities and relations I found, both within the charts of each
individual and between the charts of the whole group of participants. For example, all
eight participants, when asked about their earliest memories of singing, reminisced
about singing with their families. Some of the codes from the transcripts that fit the
category, Family singing were: Sing-alongs with family friends at Christmas; My
father loved to sing; My father sang with me at bedtime; Parents were country and
38
western musicians; Rocking the cradle on stage; Music is a natural evolution of the
family; Family is the most important music training; Goodnight song with my mom
a prayer; Older siblings sang in a folk group; My mother is a musician; Dad singing at
bedtime - very sweet; Dad sang You Are My Sunshine; Sang and danced with
mom; and Sang with my family in church choir.
Another set of codes that had common meanings were related to the subjects
beliefs about their own voices: Good sight-reader, but didnt have a good voice; Not
all voices are created equal; Teacher said: Just sing, its fine; non-singer; private
voice lessonslowest teacher; I wasnt the strongest singer; I wasnt as strong;
Voice teacher took a lot of MuEd majors - patient and kind; Not trained as singer;
I dont have a trained voice that sounds lovely; My liability as a singer; Never a
singer; I was an instrumentalist; Im not a singer; Some are not singers; Non-singer
= asset as teacher; I have to work at singing morenot my strength. These codes
became part of the category I titled Im an instrumentalist/a non-singer/not the best
singer.
When asked about the ways singing is incorporated into the Orff Schulwerk
classroom, many answers indicated that the subjects use singing sometimes as a
means to an end. They sing a melody prior to learning on an instrument, or they sing
along with the melody they are playing to check for accuracy. Codes included: Sing
& move to learn barred instrument part; Children sing melodies before playing them;
Children sing while they play; Sing before playing; Adults sing to familiarize their
ears with a new sounda new mode; Sing to learn an instrumental melody; Sing to
39
check or improve playing; Singing first helps to get to artistry of melody; Learn
melodic concepts through voice firstespecially younger kids; Sing a recorder piece
then play it; Move while song is played by teacher to get it in their heads; Sing to
learn a melody then transfer to bars; Its another tool at our disposal. I termed this
category Singing can be used as a tool.
Another idea that emerged from the codes had to do with variation in the
amount and types of singing that are performed in an Orff Schulwerk class. Codes
that were used to support this category were: Sing in the morning; Songs that relate to
curriculum; Part-songs; Singing with some volumes pieces; Writing text for melodies
from the volumes; Use songs that are appealing; Spirituals; Some folk songs; No folk
song arranging; Canons a cappella; Canons with movement; Singing and moving;
Folk songs with accompaniment (related to curriculum); Other folk songs not related
to curriculum; Canons first thing of day; Vocal improvisation; Canons; Part-songs
from staff; Varies from level to level; K-2 more and Level I more; 5th less and Level
III less; Voice is one of the options for the texture of a piece; Singing is heavily
weighted in the early gradesno instrumental skills yet; Early: voice is primary
instrument; Older: more equal balance between singing and playing; 5th grade:
instruments take priority; Singing gets to be less as children get older; Older kids
movement becomes more extraordinarytoo hard to combine other media; Older
studentssinging is at the beginning or end, not middle of lesson; One on the various
mediums they can transfer back and forth; Drum and sing; and Sing with a recorder
counter-melody. This category was called Amount and types of singing vary.
40
Following the initial analysis of the codes, I had identified 16 categories,
including the four that are described above. I made a new chart that was titled Initial
Categories, which is illustrated in Table 3.
Table 3
Initial Categories
1. Family singing 2. Im an instrumentalist/a non-

singer/not the best singer.
3. Singing can be used as a tool. 4. Amount and types of singing
vary.
5. I dont like to teach what isnt 6. I never thought Id teach
my choice. elementary music.
7. Singing can be separate. 8. Making a conscious effort to
include singing
9. Im still an Orff teacher when I 10. Courses vary by tradition.
teach songs.
11. Process 12. I love to sing/joy of singing
13. Influence of college and student 14. Joy, encouragement, freedom,
teaching on choice to take OS and choice
levels
15. Importance of repertoire 16. Teacher educators: Teach kids
choices for older kids before adults
Categorizing the Codes: Round 2
Upon subsequent analysis as I continued to examine the data and the first
round of categories, several changes were made. In fact, only one of the initial
categories, Making a conscious effort to including singing, remained exactly the
same as in the first analysis. Some category names were re-worded slightly to better
define their meaning. For example, Family singing, was changed to Early
influence of family. Singing can be used as a tool was simplified to Singing as a
tool; and Singing can be separate became Singing as a separate thing.

41
Other categories were divided for more specificity. For example, Im an
instrumentalist/a non-singer/not the best singer became the five categories: I was
mostly an instrumentalist; Not the best singer; Highfalutin music with the third-
string sopranos; Cutting my teeth on voice lessons; and Even singers question
their abilities. Another example was Amount and types of singing vary, which
referred to how singing is taught to students of different ability levels. This idea was
split into three parts: Singing more frequently with beginning students, which refers
to techniques used with younger children or with Level I adults; Singing less
frequently with more advanced students? which explains the changes that take place
in instruction as the students advance in ability; and Singing to learn a musical
concept, which was one of the reasons the subjects gave when asked to list examples
of the music children sing in their classes.
The names of still other categories were changed to broader or more succinct
titles that encompassed all that was meant by a given quote. When the participants
said, Im still an Orff teacher when I teach singing, they were explaining that they
still use the Process when they teach folk songs, sing-alongs, or choral music. The
name of that category changed to The Orff process.
Another example of a category that required a broader title was Importance
of repertoire choice, which referred to a belief that choosing appropriate song
material was one of the factors for success in encouraging adolescent students to sing.
Further analysis led me to see that the overall category for that idea was Reluctance
to sing. The participants responses to their students reluctance also needed to be

42
reported. Therefore, the category, Everybody gives it a try was added. As the
participants spoke further of their commitment to singing for all students, they
expressed another idea: If everyone is required to sing, the product might not be
worthy of performance at festivals and competitions. Therefore, the category We
dont compete was added.
One of the interview questions required the subjects to reflect on What
attracted me to Orff Schulwerk. During that inquiry, several of the subjects
discussed, Influence of college methods and student teaching and I never thought
Id teach elementary music. These discussions were in the context of how they
discovered Orff Schulwerk as preservice teachers and subsequently made decisions to
teach elementary music. Both of those initial categories were encompassed into the in
vivo code category It was a perfect match.
The words choice, freedom, and joy appeared in the first round of
categories. These were other factors that drew the subjects to Orff Schulwerk. They
became the categories Actively involved: choice, freedom, and creativity and Joy
and beauty. On the same topic, I dont like to teach what isnt my choice became
Not my choice, which was assimilated into of Actively involved: choice, freedom,
and creativity. One more category that emerged from the analysis of what attracted
the participants to Orff Schulwerk was Something for everyone. This idea was
regarding the subjects views that the media of Orff Schulwerk provide varied
opportunities for students to be successful music makers.

43
This examination of the initial categories and re-examination of the data
yielded the composite of Final Categories, which are shown in Table 4, alongside
the Initial Categories.
Table 4
Initial and Final Categories
Initial Categories Final Categories

1. Family singing Early influence of family
2. Im an instrumentalist/a I was mostly an
non-singer/not the best instrumentalist.
singer. Not the best singer
Highfalutin music with the
third-string sopranos
Cutting my teeth on voice
lessons
Even singers question their
abilities.
3. Singing can be used as a Singing as a tool
tool.
4. Amount and types of Singing more frequently with
singing vary. beginning students
Singing less frequently with
more advanced students?
Singing to learn a musical
concept
5. I never thought Id teach It was a perfect match.
elementary music.
6. Influence of college and It was a perfect match.
student teaching on my
choice to take OS levels
7. I dont like to teach what Actively involved: Choice,
isnt my choice. freedom, and creativity
8. Singing can be separate Singing as a separate thing.
9. Making a conscious effort Making a conscious effort to
to include singing include singing
10. Im still an Orff teacher The Orff process
when I teach songs.
11. Process The Orff process
12. I love to sing/joy of singing But I love to sing!
Singing for the joy of singing
44
My students take to singing

like its birthday cake and ice
cream.
We dont compete.
13. Joy, encouragement, Joy and beauty
freedom, and choice
14. Importance of repertoire Reluctance to sing
choices for older kids Everybody gives it a try.
15. Teacher educators: Teach Credibility
kids before adults
16. Courses vary by tradition. (Eliminated)
Relating to the Research Questions
My next step was to return to the five research questions that were the premise
of this study. I examined the 24 categories and found that each of them corresponded
to one of the research questions. Using these categories, I began to identify quotes
from the interviews that could serve as evidentiary warrants for the claims I was
making. In the following chapters, I present the evidence from the transcripts,
organized around the five research questions on Orff Schulwerk teacher educators
beliefs about singing.

45
CHAPTER 4: PEDAGOGICAL AND CURRICULAR BELIEFS ABOUT
SINGING
From their responses to several of the interview questions, participants
pedagogical and curricular beliefs about singing can be inferred. They described three
distinct purposes of singing in an Orff Schulwerk curriculum, yet they also discussed
several ways in which singing seems separate from the curriculum. Participants also
made distinctions between how singing is taught to beginners and how it is taught to
more advanced students. This led to their perceptions that singing is approached
differently in the curriculum for beginners than it is for more advanced students.
Pedagogical Beliefs: Purposes of Singing
Participants discussed four primary purposes for singing in the music
classroom. Singing can be used:
1. to learn a musical concept;
2. as a tool to learn a melody that would ultimately be performed on a
music instrument;
3. for sheer enjoyment; or
4. as an activity that can be separate from the Orff Schulwerk curriculum.
It is interesting to note that the first two uses of singing, which are fully integrated
into the Orff curriculum, are in service of curricular objectives other than singing.
Moreover, we can discern a difference regarding singing for sheer enjoyment or
singing in a choir. In some ways, singing for these purposes makes singing appear to
46
be separate from an Orff Schulwerk approach to curriculum. At the same time,
however, participants seem certain that, whether for a curricular purpose or for sheer
joy, singing can be taught using the Orff approach.
Singing to Learn a Musical Concept
Peter and Julian illustrate how a teacher chooses a song for the purpose of
teaching a musical concept:
Peter: Songs that they have created or songs that I have created for them [are
usually] for a specific purpose. That's where . . . I most often tie in the
curricular singing, meaning singing that is tied to a specific harmonic,
melodic, rhythmic curricular goal.
Julian: So any song I choose to teach them is put through that filter. What
will be learned from singing this? And then it has to pass the okay of 75
songs that could illustrate triple meter or 75,000 songs that could illustrate
triple meter, while we're familiar with these pitches and these rhythms. Which
of these can I make meaningful to them in October of third grade? And so
then I look at texts and then which of these can I successfully get them to do
based on the skills where they are now? So I might have to look at range and
how the melody moves and how that's combined with what structure is
obvious. What will they be able to hang onto immediately? What will I have
to coach them to be able to do? What new thing can we bring to consciousness
about this song?
Singing as a Tool
Joanna gave a clear description of how singing can be used as a tool to get the
sounds of the music into students ears before the students ultimately perform the
melody on barred instruments:
Joanna: We sing the songs that the kids are playing on the barred instruments.
JS: Okay. So you sing it before you play it?
Joanna: Always. We always sing it. So, the first melody in first grade is
(singing on So and Mi), Halloween is coming, witches in the air, ghosts and
bats are everywhere. And we teach it to them like this, Halloween isand
47
we just have them the sing the melody but we put the hand signs with it, and
we tell them, This [So hand sign] means play G. Now, sing what were
doing. (Singing) G, G, E, and then we go to the instruments and try to do
it.
The ultimate performance of a song, therefore, may not be indicative of the amount of
singing that actually takes place in the Orff Schulwerk classroom, as Peter explains:
Peter: We may have been doing a ton of singing up to [the performance], but
then for the performance said, Were not going to sing this section, were
going to leave this for the recorders, even though wed been singing it to get
it into our head, to internalize it. So if somebody just saw the final
performance they might say, You dont do any singing. And I would say, I
just did three months of singing on this piece. You just didnt hear it.
Singing for the Joy of Singing
Other times, singing is performed on its own, just for the joy of singing. When
singing occurs for this purpose it is often accompanied by piano, guitar, or autoharp,
rather than by Orff instruments. Sometimes songs are performed for enjoyment in the
music classroom, but at other times, the songs are performed in large-group singing
experiences outside the scope of the regular music class.
Peter: I have very clear curricular goals in regards to harmony, melody and
that type of thing, and sometimes I want to sing a song that doesnt fit those.
Or I want them to just sing a song and have fun and not because its worth
studying or not because it has a curricular goal, but were going to sing the
song just because its a great song. Its a lot of fun to sing.
Julian: The whole school meets in the auditoriumK through 5for 20

minutes on Monday morning and we give the announcements and all that and
whatever. But, we always start with a song. There are these 25 or so all-school
songsAmerica the Beautifuland the [school name] alma matter and
You Are My Sunshinea wide range of whatever seems like it would be
fun to sing around this time of yearthat I teach to everyone, for no other
purpose than you sing and enjoy.
48
Robert and Janet gave accounts of how singing for enjoyment in the Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses they attended closely resembled singing for
enjoyment in their classes with children.
Robert: Every day after lunch, all the levels would come together and sing
canons. . . . I was truly in awe of their memories. [My teacher] would do one,
and depending on what the theme of that was, it was about a bird or whatever,
in the morning they would say, Oh, how about this one? And some of them
were hilarious, some of them were a bit bawdy, and Id never sung canons
before. . . . [My other levels teacher] also, I think, had an hour a day of
singing. That was his thing. We all got together, and I dont remember if it
was in the morning or what, but he was just singing and he also knew, not just
a lot of canons, but part-songs that he would teach us. Some of them were
religious. (pause) And he had a beautiful voice.
Janet: I think one thing I loved about being in Level I was that [my teacher]
always started with a canon every day. You know, even if it didnt fit the
scope and sequence and the particular thing that you were working on that
day. And Im not sure at that point in time that was extremely well-thought-
out, it may have been, but it was not obvious to me as a student. We always
started with singing.
Singing as a Separate Thing
The idea of singing as a separate thing refers to the fact that singing is
sometimes performed as a medium in isolation from the other Orff Schulwerk media.
The participants discussed singing as a separate thing in two different contexts: folk
songs and choral ensembles. Libby explained her view that folk songs should not be
accompanied by Orff instruments:
Libby: Its a separate thing. If were singing a folk song, its either a cappella
or its with guitar. And well do other songs sometimes with instruments, but
theyre usually created by the students or by me. . . . Its a personal choice of
philosophy that folk songs didnt originate with Orff instruments. [Folk songs]
originated from spontaneous singing or from having a guitar or a banjo or an
autoharp or something and Id like to preserve the historical integrity of the
folk song. The song can get lost so easily with Orff instruments.
49
According to the participants, choir meets at the beginning or end of the day
in some of the schools and Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses described in this
study, which removes or separates it from the rest of the curriculum. Often in Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses, all of the levels students meet together in a
tutti session at the end of the day. This class is typically called choir or vocal
techniques.
Libby: And then, we had a choral experience at the end of the day, where all
the levels got together and sang choral repertoire.
Kelly: In Level III, we used, we were singing music, they were octavos, and
we had a little folder that we worked on different parts of, you know different
pieces every day, working gradually towards that choir concert that we did at
the end of the course.
Joanna: For a long while, [we had a separate choral hour]. First with [choral
teacher one] and then with [another choral teacher], so that they made that a
part of (pause) they believed it to be so important that it should be its own
thing.
Janet: And when I did Level I, that particular team of teachers also had a focus
on singing. So [teacher name] did an hour a day of vocal technique and Orff
Schulwerk application of vocal techniquesbut very much focused on good
singing. So I learned a lot.
Choirs in schools are special courses, removed from other music classes:
Julian: I have a 5th grade choir, we call it, which is basically all the fifth
graders come to music at the same time, but because we call it choir, theyre
willing to be subjected to more of the things that are just vocal. So, we have a
period a week where what we do is primarily about singing.
Peter: In third grade is when we start choir too. So those are the kids that are
coming for extra singing.
JS: At a different time?

Peter: At seven o'clock in the morning.
50
The Orff Process
Even though some types of singing are viewed as separate, participants agreed
that any type singing could be taught with an Orff process. Joanna defined that
process when she spoke about one of her Orff levels teachers:
Joanna: I just loved the way she would break something down and put it back
together. She was the best with that.
JS: So thats what you mean by process?
Joanna: So Im defining it asin two ways really, and she was good at both
of them. One was having a little germ of an idea and developing that into
something unknown and huge. And the other was looking at something that
was given and big and finding a way to break it down for students, for me, so
that it felt like (pause) approachable.
Libby and Janet explained how the Orff process is valuable in teaching singing:
Libby: You dont have to have the [barred] instruments for it to be an Orff
process, even if its a traditional folk song. So I still consider myself an Orff
teacher in the way I teach those folk songs.
Janet: I love teaching vocal music and having it emerge from a kind of wide
range of activities, and so in that way its more convergent. . . . [I]f I think
something is a little too hard for the kids, I might find a way to reduce their
vocal content of the line to something that they can play on the barred
instruments, and then go back and give a more complex version to them, as
they begin to sing vocally. But the fact that theyve learned it through
something that has a kinesthetic response to it and visual, for some reason it
helps them to be able to grasp things that are actually a little too difficult for
them to learn by the usual things.
Curricular Priority Beliefs: Differences by Ability
Participants value a holistic approach to music pedagogy for younger children.
Singing, dancing, and instrument playing are integrated in music classes aimed at
younger students. Teachers might simultaneously teach a song and a dance, or they
51
might move quickly between singing, dancing, and an Orff instrument
accompaniment.
Joanna: Like Boots of shining leather, when we learn it, were already
moving it. (Singing and showing dance steps): If you dance then you must
have, boots of shining of shining leather. And like, four steps in, four steps
out. Echo it. Echo what I did and what I sang.
JS: So, you just teach it simultaneously? Both parts simultaneously?
Joanna: Mm hmm. And sometimes at the barred instruments. Im thinking of

like a second grade or a third grade kind ofsecond grade thing in Re
pentatonic, we would be singing the melody and moving it at the same time.
Sarah: Example third gradeHush, Little Minnieso the kids walk in and
Im singing the song, we immediately, we learn the dance. We might go to the
instruments and play the melodic outline on the instruments imitatively and
then were singing it again while we play that and then half the class would go
back and do the singing dance again while some play the accompaniment.
In contrast, participants described their tendencies to isolate each medium
with older students. The participants attributed this pedagogical change to the
sophistication and difficulty of the music:
Robert: Our younger kids, as in lower school, will do more singing and
dancing simultaneously both in classroom and in performances. Middle
school, we tend to separate. Im guessing we do that, I mean I never thought
about it, but its intuitive, but Im guessing we do that because the music is
becoming harder and we expect more of them when theyre moving, so we
dont want them to sing and move because we want the movement to be pretty
extraordinary. So thats the focus.
Libby: So, like in fifth grade, if were working on a choral piece, were going
to be devoting a lot of time to that. If were doing a big instrumental piece, our
singing work would be a little bit less. So it goes a little bit more almost by
unit or piece, based on repertoire choices, at that age.
Julian: As they get older, and the projects become more sophisticated, you
have to spend a little more time with each thing to really flesh out what you
know about it and what to do with it. So if its a recorder piece and its a little
sophisticated, they have to spend some time in their group, just working on
52
the recorder part. . . . The idea that its always singing, saying, dancing,
playing, by the upper grades, either you have to keep everything so simplistic
so they can do it all at once, or if you try to do things that are at their level of
sophistication, you cant do all of those things at once because you cant do
very sophisticated singing and movement, and rhythm play all in a half hour.
They cant process all of that at once.
Singing More Frequently with Beginning Students
A holistic approach to pedagogy means that it is difficult to calculate which
portion of the music curriculum is dedicated to singing, versus which portion of the
curriculum is dedicated to movement or to playing instruments. When the media are
isolated, however, such calculations are easier to make. Participants expressed their
belief that singing occurs frequently in the curriculum for younger students. Nested
within this belief is another more fundamental belief that, for younger children, voice
is the primary instrument:
Libby: I think singing is very heavily weighted at the early elementary age.
Kindergarten, first grade, they don't have instrumental skills yet they are just
emerging, so the voice is the primary instrument.
Robert: I think for sure our younger or youngest students are gonna be doing
more singing and also gonna be doing more play party games. All that stuff
gets them moving and playing at the same time, and those coordination skills
involve singing.
Julian: With the littler kids, up through second grade, maybe there are a few
lessons in second grade where it's just instrumental or it's just movement, but
there is singing in almost every class. . .
Sarah: I would say up through third grade there really is 50% or more
[singing]. Fourth and fifth grade, once we start recorder and do more
instrumental work, its probably 30% or 25% somewhere in there. . . . I think
in my current situation, I sing more with the younger kids than the older.
The curriculum of the Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses closely
mimics the curriculum of music classes with children. Participants underscored their
53
beliefs about teaching young children through their explanations that Level I in the
Orff Schulwerk teacher education curriculum incorporates materials that are most
appropriate for students in grades K-3. They acknowledged, therefore, that singing is
an important medium at this level:
Peter: [W]e spent a lot of time, I think, singing in Level I. A lot of that early
childhoodthat Level I materialthat is just based around singing and
singing games.
Libby: In my Level I, we sang lots of canons. I remember singing pieces from

Volume I that had text settingsand some of the rounds and canons too. I
remember singing pentatonic rounds that [OS teachers name] would write
words to. (Singing) Sing, dance and play (so-mi-re-do). . . . Then he would
show us where they were in the volumes, and that he had written the words.
And then we sang some of the pieces that were, I think you know, like
(Singing) Wee Willie Winkie. And, we sang pentatonic folk songslots of
Do and La pentatonic folk songs.
Julian: I know, when I teach Level I, I model much more of the things we do
with our voice as part of the Orff Schulwerk process that I want them to go
out and do with their kids in order to teach singing.
Singing Less Frequently with More Advanced Students?
Several participants perceived a decrease in the frequency of singing in music
classes with older, or more advanced students:
Joanna: I would say the proportion of singing goes down as the children get
older. I would say in the lower school, where I teach and supervise first,
second, third and fourth grade, I would say the children sing almost every day.
And in middle school less and less and less.
Libby: For fifth grade, instrumental music making probably takes a little more
priority in my time and planning, and sometimes I think I'm not singing
enough but I still am kind of wrestling with finding that magical balance.
They can play such cool incredible stuff on recorder and instrumental and they
have movement and singing, and it's hard to fit those all in.
54
Julian, however, offered another view:
Julian: How much singing we do, the actual minutes is probably about the
same in any grade . . . I mean there really isnt any concept we encounter that
I dont use singing as a medium for illustrating something.
Some of the interviewees also reported that there was less focus on singing in
their Level II and Level III Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses, as Peter
illustrated:
Peter: And so I felt, looking back on it, I dont remember quite as many
singing opportunities in Level II. . . . So yeah, I feel like [Level] I was really
the strongest year for singing, and then II and III, it maybe wasnt quite as
predominant.
Libbys experience was different. Singing remained central in all three of her levels
courses:
Libby: So it was the same sort of thing [in Level II]. We did a lot of folk song
arrangementsthings that had been written by the instructor. We did some
play-party/singing games kinds of things, and we did canons and rounds. . . .
But we started moving into the modes and into hexatonic in Level II. Then, in
Level III, it was lots of modessinging songs in every single mode.
Participants are not unanimous in their views regarding the frequency of
singing for older students in an Orff Schulwerk curriculum. No participants
statement about older students indicated that older children ought to sing less
frequently or that the voice should become a secondary, supporting instrument. Thus,
the participants made observations, rather than statements of belief about frequency
of singing in the upper grades. It might be inferred that participants believe that older
children develop greater capacities with all the media; therefore, the greatest
curricular challenge in the upper grades is adequate attention to, or coverage of, each
medium.
55
CHAPTER 5: EFFICACY BELIEFS ABOUT SINGING
According to Bandura (as cited in Pajares, 2002), self-efficacy beliefs are
peoples judgments of their capabilities to organize and execute courses of action
required to attain designated types of performances (p. 4). Because the value of
singing was instilled in the participants from a young age, they were able to overcome
their feelings of inadequacy as vocalists, to arrive at a philosophical belief that
everyone should participate in the act of singing. Therefore, the teacher educators of
this study are determined to include and teach singing to the best of their abilities.
The evidence that attests to these participants effectiveness as teachers of
singing includes: their efforts to identify the issues related to students resistance to
singing and to come up with solutions for those issues; and the fact that, reportedly,
the outcome of their work as teachers of singing is that, in the end, their students love
to sing. However, the participants were candid about the fact that one of the
challenges they face to be effective teachers of singing is to include singing in every
lesson, especially as the students abilities become more advanced. They admit that,
at times, they may fall short of including enough singing.
One other aspect of the study that was related to the participants efficacy
beliefs about teaching singing was their belief that, as instructors of teachers, they
have more credibility when they teach singing, or any activity they plan to teach to
adults, to their child students first. In other words, they are more effective as teacher
educators when they teach children first.

56
The ideas that emerged from the participants efficacy beliefs about teaching
singing were:
1. Students Reluctance to Sing
a. Establishing a singing culture
b. Repertoire Choice
2. My students take to singing like its birthday cake and ice cream.
3. Making a conscious effort to include singing
4. Credibility
Students Reluctance to Sing
During 3rd or 4th grade and into adolescence, according to the interviewees,
many children begin to resist singing. Boys, in particular, may be reluctant to sing.
The subjects saw this resistance as a challenge to their effectiveness as teachers of
singing. To meet this challenge, they identified two factors related to students
resistance to singing, which, when attended to, they believed could alleviate the
problem of students reluctance to sing. One of the factors of students resistance to
singing is that singing has not been established as a habitas something they do
every time they come to music. Another factor may be the choice of repertoire. When
teachers choose songs and texts appeal to them, students are more likely to participate
willingly.
Establishing a Singing Culture
Three of the participants spoke about the challenge of establishing singing as a
habitas part of the school culture. When students do not sing on a regular basis,
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they can become more resistant. Once the habit is formed, however, singing is an
everyday, normal occurrence, in which everyone participates.
Joanna: Our kids resist [singing] a little bit because, as we do less [in the
upper grades], it becomes like a bigger deal to do it. But they are always
saying, Please can we dance, please can we do this? But they are not saying,
Please can we sing?
Janet: [I[f before grade 5, they have never been taught to respect their own
singing voice, its much harder to convince them that singing is a wonderful
way to express yourself.
Sarah: It takes a few years, as you know, to develop that love for singing in a
school. And when I first got to this school, I had some quite reluctant fourth
and fifth grade singers, but now that Ive had them since first grade thats not
an issue.
Repertoire Choice
The repertoire that the teacher selects for the students to sing may also be a
factor in their level of enthusiasm about singing. Sometimes their like or dislike may
be related to the text of the piece, but it can also be about appropriate range.
Libby: [If] I choose the right text to either set the melody to, or I choose the
right folk song or choral piece for them, that clicks with them. If I pick
something that I like but they dont really like it, it isnt a good fit. But when
its a good fit and Ive been successful in choosing the repertoire, they love to
sing it.
Joanna: I think they sing really well in the lower school. And the middle
school, as they become more resistantand I think as we are less able to
choose really appropriate material for them, they pull back a little bit. So we
just kept singing canons, and canons often have high ranges and we lose
people. . . . [W]hen we started writing thingsthat cambiata partwe got our
boys back in sixth grade, so thats something that we need to do more of.
My Students Take to Choir Like Its Birthday Cake and Ice Cream
In addition to professing their own love of singing, it was clear from several
statements that the teacher educators in this study feel successful as teachers when
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their students indicate an enjoyment of singing. The students demonstrate their
enjoyment through their motivation to sing, rising to the challenge of a difficult piece,
and by continuing to sing a favorite piece outside of music class. One subject related
a story about his students choosing to take choir because they discover that singing is
fun. Finally, the participants expressed a sense of pride when students choose choir as
elective upon entering middle school.
Some of the participants described scenarios in which the students are so
motivated and challenged by the repertoire that they dont want the singing to end.
Julian: [B]y magic, or pedagogy, or luck, they took to choir this year like it
was a birthday cake and ice cream. . . . [T]hey were so excited to sing by the
end of the year and partly, it was, we chose some really effective repertoire for
them to sing, and the combination of things was powerful. It was one of those
years when it would be time to go, and they would say, But we didn't get to
this. Can we sing this?
Kelly: And what I love is, Hey lets try this in two parts, or Can we do this
in three parts? And I say, Oh this is something the older kids do, and maybe
we should wait until youre older. [The students say,] No, no, no!
Libby: They like to sing, especially certain songs. If theres a song that weve
done that really strikes them, I can tell, because I hear it in the stairwell. Ill
hear it in the hallway. Or Ill have a parent stop and say, Theyve come home
singing this song and they wont stop. Or Ill hear them singing on the
playground at recess. Or humming in the hallway or theyll go learn how to
play it on the recorder . . .
Although they begin with the extrinsic motivator of being forced, the
students in Roberts school later become motivated by the fun of singing, which has
led over half of the school to choose choir as an elective:
Robert: So I force them [to sing], so to speak, and that way, of course,
everyone is singing and the more people sing, the better it sounds, and so they
do it well and then as I already told you, you know, high school when the Orff
classes stop, you know, why would half of the upper school choose to be in
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the chorus? They clearly do like to sing. . . . And we sing enough so that when
these kids get into 9th grade and no longer are forced to sing, they say, I'm
signing up because it was fun, and I think thats very important.
Robert and Kelly spoke about choirs in which their students can choose to
participate once they leave elementary school. When they talked about how many of
their students chose choir as elective, it was clear that they felt proud when their
students loved choir enough to continue.
Robert: My chorus has 115 kids in it. The whole upper school has 220. More
than half of the kids are in the chorus and I think, and this might sound a bit
too proud, but I think its largely in part to my approach of singing and
reminding kids that its fun to sing. You dont have to be a great singer, its
just a fun thing to do. Come and sing in my chorus. . . . [A]nd so, all the way
to 12th grade, half of the upper school, they sing. Its wonderful.
Kelly: No, I had this meeting with the middle school teachers today, and they
were saying how thankful that they are that they got so many kids that love to
sing and a nice number in their choir, and the kids that dont take choir then
have a general music class at the middle school. And theyre just thankful,
you know, theyre just really thankful that they have kids that are willing, that
really want to participate, and maybe thats their one performance experience.
But it really is rewarding and when they told me about the numbers in choir
versus the numbers in general music. I thought, Wow, this is great. Okay we
are doing some good.
Making a Conscious Effort to Include Singing
Even though the evidence clearly indicates that the teachers in this study
believe that singing is important, they also were unanimous in the belief that teaching
all of the Orff Schulwerk media in equal quantities is a challenge. Of all the media, it
seems that singing is the one that they have to be most conscious about including in
their lessons with both children and adults. In addition, it seems that there has to be
even more of a conscious effort to include singing as the children reach upper grades
and as the adults take levels II and III.

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Kelly: I try to haveI want to have a singing experience in every lesson,

whether thats kindergarten through fifth grade, and thats something that, in
recent years, Ive added more because I think it was a part that was sometimes
being a little bit neglected. We were working on a big instrument piece or we
were doing something with a series of folk dances or something. And then I
realized, you know, this is something we should be doing every time they
come to music.
Joanna: Well, in Level II, we try to sing every morning as a rule, not every
morning, but almost every morning. And I try to sing something in the mode
that were going to be in. Doesnt always work.
Peter: You know its very easy for me, as primarily an instrumentalist, to look
at the literature and say, Were just going to play this, and when we are
learning something to speak and say, Heres what were going to do. So
Ive forced myself, in the last three years, especially after going into my own
school, to say, Okay. We are now going to put our mallets down and
everybody is going to sing the part they were just playing.
Robert: I have to make sure, with the non-singers, that I include an

appropriate amount of singing in my classroom, remembering that there are
children and adult students who want to sing. So I have to make sure I dont
just play instruments or recorder. I want to make sure theyre singing. . . .
Again, because Im not a singer, I think I have to be more aware of it. . . .
[F]or me, I have to really be thinking about it. Because otherwise Id be giving
the wrong message to people who are like myselfwho dont sing . . .
Sometimes, so that singing will not be neglected, a lesson that focuses
primarily on an instrumental piece will begin with a song, such as a canon or part-
song. These songs are not accompanied with Orff instruments.
Kelly: With the older kids, intermediate years, grades three through five, I
want them to have a singing experience, again, every time they come. So Ive
been really working a lot with rounds or canons and just having that, if were
working on some big barred instrument piece and I know thats going to be
the focus for our day, well start with [a song] as a warm-up.
Julian: Sometimes we use our voice to learn those [instrumental] pieces, but
theyre not, theres not so much singing involved in those, and so,
consequently, thats when I think, Okay, so this day cant just be about
playing xylophones, and we start with a canon or a song in a mixed meter,
61
and we just do that and do a little dance to it, and then we move that toothat
theme with the instruments.
Robert: I make sure we always have a song. So, no matter what activity were
working on, theres always some song and I did this for my whole department.
Ill say, Are you still singing this song? No, we are finished with it.
Which one are you gonna do next? And so theres always a song going on
just like theres always folk dance going on, along with all the other Orff
Schulwerk stuff.
In most cases, the teachers seem to have found ways to integrate singing
easily into their lessons. There are cases, however, when it almost seems like a
burden to find time to sing. In this case, it seems like the lack of singing snuck up
on Peter, and, exasperated with himself, he decided to drop everything and sing.
Peter: So, but it's been tough to try to find, especially as the kids get older, and
we are playing pieces that are more technically demanding at the bars, to say,
Okay, what are we singing? Are we still singing songs here? Then trying to
make sure . . . the last thing I've tried to go back to doing after being away
from it for a couple of years is just taking a day and saying, I'm taking all the
first graders and we're doing a sing-along today. Were all going to get
together and just sing songs.
Credibility
Some of the participants in this study shared their beliefs that teacher
educators should be grounded in practical experience in order to be effective. They
believe that each activity they teach to adults in teacher education courses or
workshops should first be taught in a real-life classroom setting with children. As in-
service teachers of children, the participants believe that they have more credibility
with their adult/in-service teacher students.
Kelly: She just said, You know youre just so real about whats happening in
the classroom, and I gave a lot of little anecdotes that I use in my classroom,
and I said, Okay here is kind of where I start with this, but Im going to be
62
really honest with you. There are times when sometimes this approach doesnt
work with my kids, and we would explore and talk about different ways
Julian: I assume that any song I teach [my adult students], both the material
and the way I present it to them, the way I model presenting it to them, is the
way I would approach it with my students, to get them to be successful
singing.
Peter: Ideally, thats what were shooting for here is to provide a model of,
This is what we do with kids. Not you know, Heres how I would teach this
if the kids were 40, but This is what we do with real children.
Robert shared a story about one of his former teachers, who lost some
credibility because he taught a disastrous lesson to adults, which he had never taught
to children.
Robert: So we went in like this percussion room, and he was gonna teach us
the Ecstatic Dance. Really, it fell apart, and actually, because I loved
[teacher name] by then, I kind of felt of sorry for him. And no one judged
him, but he really didnt know how to teach it. I got the feeling that it was
almost too hard for him. And years later, when Ive done it with kids now,
probably 10 times, and I know how to teach that piece, I keep going back to
[teacher name]. Why didnt he know how to teach it? Did you not do it with
the kids? You shouldnt have taught it to adults, maybe.
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CHAPTER 6: SELF-CONCEPT BELIEFS ABOUT SINGING
The participants self-concept beliefs about singing are directly related to their
beliefs about their effectiveness as teachers of singing (Pajares, 2002, p. 7). Self-
concept beliefs are, in general, regarded as an individuals sense of self-worth
associated with particular behaviors. In this study, self-concept beliefs are associated
with the participants sense of self-worth as singers. All participants had fond
memories of singing from childhood, and they associated singing with nurture, joy,
and fun. As they began to participate in school music, many participants started to see
themselves as instrumentalists, rather than as singers. Those participants who were
vocal music education majors in college saw themselves as inferior to their voice
performance major counterparts. This suggests that, overall, all participants judged
themselves to be lesser singers in comparison to other musicians with whom they
associated. In spite of believing that they were not the best singers, all participants
maintained a love of singing into their careers as Orff Schulwerk teacher educators.
The findings from this study that are associated with the participants self-
concept beliefs were:
1. Early Influence of Family
2. Not the Best Singer
a. I Was Mostly an Instrumentalist
b. Cutting My Teeth on Voice Lessons
c. Highfalutin Music with the Third-String Sopranos

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d. Even Singers Question Their Abilities
e. But I Love to Sing!
3. Roberts Case as an Exemplar
Early Influence of Family
Participants stories included fathers singing with their children at bedtime;
families singing together in the car on long-distance trips; singing with family
members in a church choir; performing shows with parents as the audience; a
family of country-western singers who instilled music making in their children from
the time they were in the cradle; and a father with a good voice, who was self-
conscious about singing. From these family experiences, the participants not only
learned to see themselves as singers; they also began to associate singing with
nurture, joy, and fun.
Robert and Libby both remembered their fathers as having good voices. They
shared memories about their fathers singing to them at bedtime:
Robert: My father loved to sing and he always had music playing Southern
gospel, just kinds of folk songs. I remember we sang The Wabash
Cannonball a lot in bed. Like, wed sit there, and hed bring the album cover
that had the words on the back, and the album wouldnt be playing. Hed just
come to the bed and, instead of reading me a story, wed sing songs and look
at the words. . . . And so, I remember my father singing a lot. He had a good
bass voice and in church, I remember thinking, Hes not singing the
melody, because he was harmonizing, singing harmony.
Libby: My earliest memory of singing is my dad singing Kentucky Babe.

(Laughter.) And You Are My Sunshine.
JS: To you? Was that for bedtime or was that just whenever?
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Libby: For comfort and at bedtime; especially the memory is stronger at

bedtime when he was tucking me in and then trying to sing along with him, at
least in my head.
Sarah shared a story about singing songs with her family on long car trips.
The songs they sang were those she had learned from her older sister, a folk singer,
and from her mother, who was also a musician.
Sarah: Our family sang a lot together. I had older siblings who sang. My
oldest sister had a little folksort of Peter, Paul, and Marysinging group,
so I would hear all of her songs. My mother is a musician, so we sang
together. My father tried to sing (laughs), and we sang a lot as a family in
the car with my sister of course, very much family sing-along type. . . . My
sister and I sang a lot of songs wed learned in Girl Scouts. My mother was a
leader, so she was the one who taught them to us. Lots of canons, folk songs. I
remember singing Im Henry the Eighth I Am all the way to Maine once
to my parents distraction. We sang with my older sister, of course, we were
singing Puff the Magic Dragon and a lot of folk songs. We did a lot of
singing in Girl Scouts as well.
Kelly had warm memories of singing with her family in the church choir:
Kelly: And then in high school, I started singing in our church choir and that
was really special because it was something that I did with my dad, who was
in the church choir, and then my aunt and my grandmother were also in the
choir. . . . There was one time in high school when I had had some surgery,
just a little bit of plastic surgery done, and it was right at Christmastime, and I
really wanted to sing on Christmas Eve, because that was just a very big deal.
But I was kind of still in a lot of pain and probably shouldnt have been up
there anyway, but I really, really wanted to sing, so I remember my aunt and
my grandmother coming and sitting with me at that service, just to kind of be
there for support, and they were both very strong altos, so they kind of helped
me through that service. They didnt tell me they were coming . . . they just
came and sat down, and we sang together . . . and I havent thought about that
in a really long time.
Libby recalled entertaining her parents in singing and dancing shows in
their living room. Her parents were given tickets to attend.
Libby: I sang all the time. My Fair Lady was my favorite record. I was
probably three. And I would put it on the record player when I was three or
66
four and dress up in my moms little prom dress and sing and dance with her
and put on shows.
JS: Was there an audience or was there just?
Libby: Sometimes. Sometimes, I would invite my parents into the living

room. [Id] plan a show and sing for them and dance. And dress up in my
parents clothes. I made tickets!
Janet related that singing had always been a part of her everyday life.
Janet: I cant remember a time when I didnt sing because my parents were
country-western musicians. And the famous family story is that when we were
in our cradles, they were performing on stage and there were many people
who were in their group that they performed with, who were square dancers in
the Midwest that had children at the same time, and they would be rocking the
cradles on the stage while they were performing. . . . And so, for me, music
has always been a natural evolution of the family. And as the kids grew up,
we became part up [my parents performing] group and sang onstage.
Peters experience of singing was different from the others experience. He
remembers that his mother sang to him on occasion, and he recalls that his father was
self-conscious about singing:
Peter: You know it was interesting, my dad never did sing with me, but my
dad would sing all the time. When he would exercise in the basement, he
would have his headphones on and he had a beautiful voice. He really sings
well, or he used to, and then when he took the headphones off and stopped
working out, that was it. He didnt sing at church. He had that whole thing of,
Nah, Im not doing that. He was self-conscious or just in that way. He
didnt like singing, but the minute he had his headphones on exercising in the
basement, he would sing at the top of his lungs. We could hear him upstairs.
Not the Best Singer
I Was Mostly an Instrumentalist
Although singing was important in the upbringing of most participants, six of
them began to see themselves primarily as instrumentalists during their musical
experiences in school and college. Some of them were forced to choose between
67
school band or orchestra and choir. Singing in church choir was an option, but not a
very appealing one:
Robert: As was typical in the early 60s, because I had started playing
trombone, I was in the band, I didnt have general music anymore, so I
stopped singing. It was kind of weird. Thats the way they used to do it. You
didnt get general music and band. It was one or the other. So I stopped
singing and sang in church on Sundays.
JS: Like in the congregation?
Robert: In the congregation, and also I joined the youth choir or maybe just
because my parents wanted me to. I didnt like it very much. So that was my
singing.
Julian: I was never in the choir [during grade school]. I think I was in church
choir one year in middle school because there were other kids in it, and I did it
for a few months. I was a pianist so if I was asked to do something either at
church or at school, it was usually playing the piano.
Peter: In high school, I couldnt do choir because I was in jazz band and I was
playing for jazz band and they conflicted with one another.
JS: What was your instrument?
Peter: Piano. And so, at that point I loved, I was just learning how to play jazz
and was so much more interested in that, and there was one piano in the jazz
band as opposed to being, you know, a boy in choir. There werent as many
boys in choir anyway, but it was more like, I want to play jazz. And later on
when it came time to do the musical they recruited me to be the accompanist
for the musical, so that precluded any singing in the musical as well. So, I
thought, I guess Im just going to play piano.
Janet, however, spoke with delight about being able to go back and forth between her
role as an instrumentalist and her role as a singer.
Janet: The university that I went to had a requirement that all kids were
performers. And Im really grateful for that. So I was in voice lessons, and my
primary instrument was piano. And a lot of my spare time was spent as an
accompanist, because I was on scholarship as an accompanist in the music
department. But in the school that I went to at that point in time, you studied
voice and gave juries for voice, as well as your primary instrument.
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JS: Wow. Were you in choir as well?
Janet: Absolutely. I was the accompanist. And I loved, loved, loved being the
accompanist! And also then, slipping into my role [as a singer] because it was
an a cappella choir, but then having the dual role as a singer/accompanist.
Cutting My Teeth on Voice Lessons
Three instrumentalist-participants shared stories about being required to take
voice lessons in college. All three participants approached voice study as an entirely
unfamiliar experience, in spite of their childhood experience in singing. Whereas
Janet and Robert found college level voice class and voice lessons helpful, Sarah felt
more insecure and intimidated:
Janet: And so, the whole: how to produce a vowel, how to put a final
consonant on, how to have a particular color quality to your voice in different
contexts, in different kinds of music, [I] really had to be seriously taught. And
we learned a lot. . . . I was cutting my teeth because Id never had Italian art
songs. And so I was learning a lot about singing in foreign languages and
having good breath support, and things that I had never been taught before and
never needed to know as a pianist.
Robert: So then in college, because I was a general music major, I was

required to take, first it was class voice, I think for two semesters and then
private lessons, not to make me a singer, but just If youre going to teach
music, you need to sing as best as you can, so it helped you. I thought that
was wonderful, that I, as a non-singer, had all this attention.
Sarah: I was an instrumentalist, and I really didnt like practicing voice very
much. I think the thing they tried to help me with the most was confidence and
breath control. In the voice class, I was with a lot of voice majors and that was
really intimidating. I did enjoy learning some beautiful songsa lot of
classical and voice repertoire that was new to me. Id heard it, but singing it
was new to me.
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Highfalutin Music with the Third String Sopranos
All participants in this study were required to sing in a college choir. The
ensembles in which they sang were conducted by a graduate student or were very
large choirs. In either case, the individual choristers contribution to the ensemble
seemed insignificant; thus the participants tended to trivialize their choral singing
experiences, as Julian and Kelly illustrate:
Julian: So we were in the choir room with piano majors and theory majors,
and they had ensembles. Third-string sopranos who didnt make the cut.
They put all of us into one [choir] that the doctoral students got to use for their
ensembles. I also cant imagine being a doctoral student and having studied all
of this highfalutin repertoire and then, the choir youre given is a bunch of
piano players and leftover sopranos.
Kelly: French horn was my primary instrument, and we did have a

requirement of taking one semester of a vocal ensemble, and since I wasnt a
voice major, I sang in the Oratorio Chorus, which was kind of, we didnt have
to audition for it. I think it was kind of a campus-wide group, and that was for
one semester and it was, lets say, probably 80-100 singers.
Peter did not trivialize choral singing. His story, however, shows that the experience
of singing in a college choir was entirely new and unfamiliar:
Peter: [The choral director] was kind of assuming at that point a lot of us had
had that kind of training [in singing]. And I remember thinking to myself I
dont know what to do. There was one point when a friend of mine told me,
Look its really cool if you hold the music up in front of you, you can really
hear yourself. I didnt realize at the time what he was saying. I was like
Yeah, I get it because the sound would bounce back. Dork, its just physics.
Exactly. Then I was like Oh I got you. I could maybe be able to listen to
myself a little more here, instead of just singing my heart out. That was his
nice way of saying, Youre not quite right. You may be a little flat on that
one. You might want to tune it up.
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Even Singers Question Their Abilities
Joanna and Libby were voice majors in college. Although Joanna had the lead
in junior high and high school musicals, she discovered that she was not as talented as
some of the other singers she met in college:
Joanna: I didnt have a great voice, compared to some of the people, who were
voice majors. So I got to experience being the big fish [in high school] and
being a not such a great fish in a huge pond of people [in college] who were
really talented.
Both Joanna and Libby discussed their college voice teachers and revealed a sense of
being somehow less than their voice performance major counterparts:
Libby: [In college, I] started with the private lessons with [teacher name], and
she ended up having a lot of the music education majors as her vocal students.
She was so patient and kind and wonderful and a crazy diva.
Joanna: I had a man [as my voice teacher], and I think he was kinda like the
lowest guy because I wasnt the strongest, most brilliant. I was a music ed
major and the music performance majors got all the top people. So I had kind
of I think a not so great guy my first year.
But I Love to Sing!
Perhaps due to their early, familial experiences with singing, most participants
never lost sight of the enjoyment that could be derived from singing. In spite of
coming to view themselves as instrumentalists, or as singers whose voices were not
the best, the participants still love to sing, as exemplified in these comments from
Janet and Libby:
Janet: For me, being a kid from a small townactually from a farmbut
having gone to a small town high school, I just absolutely adored singing in
choir. It was like opening a whole door to music that I had never had the
opportunity to walk through.
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Libby: I loved, looked forward to, every single [private voice] lesson [in
college] because [my teacher] made you believe that you could do it.
Roberts Case as an Exemplar
Although all of the study participants shared similar self-concept beliefs,
Robert was perhaps the most candid and descriptive in his responses to interview
questions. Robert spoke several times about his belief that he does not have a good
voice, referring to himself in several instances as a non-singer. He took a pragmatic
position, explaining his belief that all voices are not created equal, and he shared that,
even though he doesnt believe his voice is beautiful, he loves to sing. Roberts case
then, serves as an exemplar of self-concept beliefs held by all participants in this
study.
Robert: You can practice all you want; if you dont have a great instrument,
its gonna get a little bit better, but its not gonna be fabulous. And so, I just
kind of knew, this is my voice and I was just so grateful to sing with [the
choir], because I love to sing. I really love to sing.
JS: Tell me, why did you think you didnt have a good voice?
Robert: Good question. When I was younger, I just figured people sang and I
didnt think about it.
JS: Everybody sings.
Robert: Yeah. (Pause) When I was in the 9th grade, my girlfriend had a really
nice voice and I would play the piano and accompany her in talent shows.
And thats where I started thinking, Oh so were not all great created equal.
And then in high school, there were people who really had good voices and I
started to really know, Okay, some instruments are better than others, in
terms of the vocal instrument, and it had never occurred to me that I wasnt a
very good singer. It wasnt that I was put down. If anything, I was encouraged
by my friends and my, very much by my theory/choir teacher. It was like,
Just sing. Its fine.
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Robert: I went to a big high school where you could pick music theory for
three yearsa full-year course, and I did because I loved it. A big component
of it was sight-singing. . . . I started doing it and I realized that, although I
wasnt a good singer, that I could sight-read, that I had whatever it takes to
sight-read. And the theory teacher was also the choir director, and he said,
You guys should join the chorus. I thought, I dont want to do chorus
because I play trombone in the marching band. He said, But youre accurate
singers. Youd be great section leaders. So I did. So, I joined the high school
chorus and I loved it. I wasnt good enough to sing in the Madrigal group. I
couldnt do that because I dont think I have a good voice, but I could sing in
the chorus and I really enjoyed it.
Robert: In college, I was required to sing in the mens chorus and in the mixed
chorus and I loved that, especially because they were all music majors. Half of
the chorus were voice majors. . . . When youre not a singer and youre able to
sing in a group of really good singers, you feel so lucky because the group
sounds great and I loved it!
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CHAPTER 7: LARGER BELIEF SYSTEMS
The larger belief systems of the participants that were brought to light in this
study were: the importance of active involvement in music making, which includes
choice, freedom and creativity in teaching and learning; and an identity strongly
linked with being an Orff Schulwerk teacher. Participants first experiences with Orff
Schulwerk during their college years resonated with their beliefs about freedom and
choice, not only from their perspectives as students, but also from their viewpoints as
future teachers. Once they were involved in Orff Schulwerk-based instruction, their
beliefs about active involvement and having choices caused a change in direction
from their early personal beliefs regarding the type of music teachers they wanted to
become. Rather than becoming secondary music directors, they wanted to teach Orff
Schulwerk at the elementary level.
The overarching larger belief that became evident in this study was the
participants identification of themselves, not simply as elementary music teachers, or
as music educators, but as Orff Schulwerk teachers. In one instance, the two larger
belief systems came into conflict with one another. In that case, principles associated
with Orff Schulwerk superseded principles of choice and freedom.
In this chapter, I discuss the larger belief systems of the participants.
Following that discussion, I position within these larger belief systems the
pedagogical, curricular, efficacy, and self-concept beliefs discussed in previous
chapters.
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Actively Involved: Choice, Freedom, and Creativity
Positive, nurturing, encouraging, actively engaged, creative, and interactive
were some of the words the participants used to describe the elements that attracted
them to Orff Schulwerk. As college students, as beginning teachers, and still today,
the subjects have always been partial to classes in which they were active
participants, where they were allowed to make choices, and in which they had input
as learners. This involvement manifested itself in the form of providing choice,
freedom, and creativity as part of the learning process. Consequently, as teachers,
they enjoy creating the same type of climate for their students. When asked about
their favorite activities to teach and about the activities that children seem to enjoy
most in their classes, several of the participants replied that they and the students
most enjoy activities in which the students have ownership. The interviewees reported
that their least favorite thing to teach was anything that was prescribed by someone
else.
Taking Ownership of the Learning
Orff Schulwerk classes include singing, moving, and playing instruments, i.e.,
music experiences where students are actively engaged. When the time comes to
decide on a form for the final performance of a piece, there are many decisions to be
made, and these are usually left to the students.
Joanna: I still think its the most rewarding way to teach and learn music
because it feels so much like part of it is coming from the students. It doesnt
feel like a dictatorship; it feels like people are taking ownership over their
learning because they are involved in music making.
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Kelly: the things that they ask to do over and over are those types of things,
were those experiences where they had a choice in what they were doing. And
what I mean by that is, we would teach, we would learn something on the
barred instruments and then I would say, Okay lets have another group over
here and Im going to have you create a little movement activity to go along
with it. Or maybe we would do it as a group, and then later on theyd have a
choice, Okay, you want to go to instruments today or do you want to work on
the movement part? [T]hose are the things they took the most pride in. And
again, I think some of it has to do with the fact that they were allowed to make
a decision about what they wanted to do.
Robert: So I love giving my kids, say, Heres the challenge. Get in a group.
You have 20 minutes. So thats what I love to do. It scares the hell out of me
that first day of doing that, you know. You know, Okay, youre phrygian
mode, youre dorian, and this is your mode, come up with eight measures,
duples and tripleswhatever you want. Good. Make a melody, make an
accompaniment, and then I get out off the way to see that happen. Its one of
my favorite things.
Permission to Explore Any Avenue
Discovering that an educational approach existed where choices and freedom
are made available to learners was a new perspective for many of the participants in
this study. Some even expressed that they had been searching for an approach that
provided the kind of freedom that Orff Schulwerk afforded.
Libby: The joy, the creativity, the student-centered work, where students can
develop an aesthetic sense and be artists from a young age, and where I could
feel like an artist as a teacher; because it gave me more flexibility to also keep
creating and feed my artist self while teaching others.
Kelly: What I really appreciated was the fact that [the teacher educator] let us
embrace the creative process. I remember sitting outside working on one of
our writing assignments, and I think she encouraged us to do that. And so
there was the part that was nurturing, and I really, really appreciated that.
JS: What do children seem to enjoy the most when they're being taught with
the Orff approach?
Peter: [I]n a more global sense, it's the whole choice. It's the command and
control they have.
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Janet: Oh, they love to create. . . . I really think it's fun to say, Why don't you
try adding a second part? Why don't you see if you can add a simple
accompaniment part. And at that point in time they really own their own
music.
Kelly also described that feeling of having permission to explore as an adult
learner:
Kelly: This was permission to do all these wonderful things that I knew that
my children, that my students would enjoy. [The Orff Level I teacher] just had
such a wonderful way of embracing that and letting us, again, just explore any
avenue that we wanted. There was no prescribed formula that she was looking
for. It was just very free-flowing and open
Not My Choice
If the participants love choice, freedom, and creativity, it follows that, when
they are in situations where that choice is taken away, they may not like it. Kelly
talked about her experience with feeling reined in as a Level II student.
Kelly: [Level II] was much more structured and rigid. It was a huge emphasis
on folk dance, not that there's anything wrong with that, but I was kind of
hungry for the opportunity to express myself in some different ways. . . . And
for some people who really need that pedagogical process really spelled out
very clearly . . . that would have been appropriate for that kind of adult
learner. For me, I was just kind of needing to let go of the reins a little bit.
One of the interview questions in this study was, What is your least favorite
thing to teach? Several of the interviewees began by talking about how they feel
when the choice of what they teach is taken away.
Joanna: My least favorite things to do with children are to tutor them in

recorder and to teach them Halloween songs.
JS: Why are those your least favorite things to do?
Joanna: Because Halloween songs feel like not my choice. Thats put upon us
by somebody who says, Were going to have a Halloween parade and the
children have to learn these songs.
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Janet: The only thing I dont like teaching to children is when someone else
has chosen the literature, and I consider it either too difficult for the group of
children that Im teaching, too easy for the group of children Im teaching, or
that it doesnt fit the voice ranges, and so I have to compromise what I think
they should be doing. Or the literature is not worthy of their focus.
First and Foremost, I Am an Orff Schulwerk Teacher
The draw to Orff Schulwerk that many of the participants experienced came
near the end of their college careers, when they took part in methods classes,
observations, and student teaching. This exposure to Orff Schulwerk caused a shift in
their career path expectations, leading them to want to teach Orff Schulwerk at the
elementary level.
The participants attraction to Orff Schulwerk continued to grow as they
became more experienced teachers. They each spent three summers taking Orff
Schulwerk levels, and some completed more advanced work in Orff Schulwerk
master classes. Through mentoring, or through an apprenticeship, the participants
completed work to become Orff Schulwerk teacher educators. As instructors of the
approach, the participants teach their students using all of the Orff Schulwerk media.
As the students progress in age and/or ability, they may develop great facility in one
medium, leading them to prefer that medium over another. However, students are
compelled to participate in all of the Orff Schulwerk media.
Expectations
The questions What made you decide to take Orff Schulwerk levels
courses? and What was the thing that most attracted you to Orff Schulwerk?
elicited responses that initially related to participants experiences in teacher

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preparation programs in college. No participant was familiar with Orff Schulwerk
prior to going to college; six of the eight first encountered Orff Schulwerk during
their college years. Although most participants entered college with plans of
becoming a secondary school teacher or ensemble director, rather than a classroom
general music teacher, once they were exposed to Orff Schulwerk during their college
methods class, observations, or student teaching, many were drawn to teaching
elementary music because of the possibilities for student engagement, choice, and
creativity described above. Two of the participants (Kelly and Janet) found
elementary teaching positions after college, which shifted the direction of their career
plans.
I Thought I Was Going to Be a Band Director
Robert, who expected to be a high school theory teacher, never thought he
would teach elementary school because he was a man. Julian was uninspired about
teaching at all until he took his first music education course.
Robert: I never thought Id be doing this ever when I was an undergraduate. I

never thought Id be teaching a dance to anybody or a song for that matter. I
saw myself as being high school theory teacher. . . . And so, I taught Orff
Schulwerk and in my undergraduate student teaching, and I liked it and
everyone said it worked. But still, of course I thought I would never teach
little kids because I was a guy.
Julian: [M]y introduction to music ed, with [my methods teacher] was the one
that turned me around from, I think I wanted to be a famous piano player
when I grew up, because other than being in band, which I was kind of tired of
by then, I hadn't done anything particularly inspiring in school that would
make me want to spend time doing that. So we did all these fabulous things
and just sang songs and traced the phrases. He just started handing out drums
and we played things, and he was so dynamic, and the things we did were so
interactive, so exciting that I thought, Wow I would kind of like to do this.
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When Kelly and Janet originally searched for teaching positions, they found
openings only for general music teachers in elementary schools. They took these new
positions because these were the only music positions available at the time.
Kelly: [T]hinking, again, that I was going to be a band director,Im glad I

paid as much attention as I did, because the first job that I signed a contract
forI thought I was going to be teaching middle school band and then two
weeks before school started, they said, Oh, well we have you down at the
elementary.
Janet: [My first job] was an elementary job and I had no concept of myself as
an elementary teacher because I had always thought of myself as a high
school choir teacher.
Preservice Teacher Experience
Six participants reported initial experience with Orff Schulwerk during their
years in preservice teacher education programs. The experience varied from an
interested methods course teacher, to attending sponsored Orff workshops, to student
teaching with cooperating teachers who were Orff Schulwerk specialists.
General music methods. Julian, Libby, and Kelly enthusiastically described
the engaging, interactive activities they experienced in their elementary methods
classes.
Libby: And I loved music so much, but the class [with my first elementary
methods teacher] was depressing. I thought, I dont want to do that to kids.
And so I was going to change [majors]. [Teacher name] came in, and we sang
and we played games, and we did folk songs and dances and played Orff
instruments, and all the lights went back on for me. I said, Well, this I love. I
can do this. And so, I always tell her she saved my career.
Kelly: We had a terrificthis is the general methods class nowwe had a

terrific teacher. . . . She had us just so actively engaged in everything we did,
and practicums and observations from early on, so we were really getting a lot
of hands-on with kids. And there was just something that spoke to me about
the different activities that we were doing.
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College observations. The opportunity to see an Orff Schulwerk classroom
with children or a workshop with in-service teachers had a strong impact on
participants as they began to understand the opportunities of this approach to music
teaching.
Robert: We went to observe at a school that was almost exclusively Orff

Schulwerk. [Cooperating teacher name] taught in the levels course at
[university name] for a while, and then because of all that stuff, and because I
was a good student, when it was time for placement, I got placed at that
school. And so I taught Orff Schulwerk in my undergraduate student teaching,
and I liked it and everyone said it worked
Joanna: As a music ed student, I was required to go a Saturday workshop at

my university, which is where they held the Saturday Orff classes. And this is
a memory thatthis really did also help me want to take Level I. I went to a
Saturday workshop and the person would turn the applause when she was
introduced into an ostinato pattern. And I just thought, Oh my god. This is
the coolest thing Ive ever seen. Im glad I got up on Saturday morning.
Student teaching. Joanna and Peter were further influenced to take a summer
Orff Schulwerk teacher education course because of placements with Orff Schulwerk
teachers during student teaching experience.
Joanna: I think I started student teaching either right in the fall or perhaps in
the spring right after [my cooperating teacher] completed her Level III. So,
she was really excited about Orff and thats what drew me to thinking about
studying. And I studied the I took Level I the very summer after I graduated
from college.
Peter: They said, We put you with this Orff woman. . . . Thats exactly
what they said, This Orff woman. (Laughing) And at the time, all I
remember was, I could remember at some point within my elementary
methods, Im saying, The Orff people, theyre kind of like a cult.
(Laughing) So in my mind now, Im going to student teach with the Moonies,
and I thought, This is awful. And I thought, This is going to be terrible.
Im going to do these 13 weeks, or whatever it is, with this Orff woman.
Shell have me wearing a purple sweat suit with matching tennies and Ill get
on the spaceship at the end of the trip. And so I went in with a lot of
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apprehensionvery guarded. And within the first couple of days, it was a

perfect match. . . . I said, I love this. This is what I want, and I didnt know
that until really late, late, late in my college career. I spent my whole college
career thinking, Im teaching high school. Thats what everybody wants to
do. So thats what really made me want to take Orff levels.
Orff Schulwerk Trumps Choice
Although the subjects spoke animatedly about their love of freedom, choice,
and creativity, when it comes to Orff Schulwerk class, participation is required. Every
student makes music using all of the Orff Schulwerk media, regardless of his or her
preference.
Varying Ability and Preference
As students become more advanced as musicians, they may excel in one area
of music making over another. Often, the medium in which they excel becomes their
preferred medium. Preference for playing instruments or moving can play a
significant role in students willingness to sing. Julian and Joanna spoke of older
students preference for playing instruments and their lack of desire to sing.
Julian: And then by fifth grade it really seems completely different. They love
instruments, and I guess if I came in and said, Today, for a half hour, you can
do whatever you want, most of them would get out instruments and start
playing. . . . And I dont think thats just because of anything Ive taught them.
Thats just something they prefer. And some of them love singing, but some
of them would be fine if I never asked them to do it. To me, thats part of that
whole, in middle school, theyre going to start having an affinity for one thing
or another.
Joanna: I think the middle-schoolers dont enjoy singing as much. They would
rather be moving or playing some challenging bar piece. Sometimes there will
be some grumbles, sometimes in middle school, not the little guys.
Julian: I've been [at my current school] 10 years now, so by the time the kids
get to be fourth and fifth graders, I can go down the row and tell you who
loves playing the recorder and who puts up with playing recorder, and who
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likes singing and playing the recorder pretty well, and who can't wait until we
stop singing and playing, and don't ask me to get up and move, just give me a
drum. So it's very kind of individual.
The participants reported parallel experiences with the adult students in their
teacher education courses. Robert gave particularly good examples of his students
varying abilities and preferences:
Robert: It's just like the kids. Some of them, as soon as we start singing, if we
havent done it for a while, they just light up because they're singers. You can
hear their voices start to soar. They're dying for it. They love to sing all day
long. Other people, lets say [Aaron], he wants to play xylophone, thats what
he feels comfortable with. Then, the next second, its Who wants to move?
Like when I watched the pedagogy lessons and they say, Okay, I need some
people to move, and its [Bob] and its [Randi.] They are dying to dance. So,
I mean, it's just like kids. It's whatever touches them the most about the
Schulwerk that brings them here. . . . There are some people, they resist what
they dont love. They are just like kids, and some of them are really obvious
about it. They kind of make it clear like, I dont like this activity we are
doing. I will do it because I know that it is Orff Schulwerk, but how long until
we get back to the instruments?
Everybody Gives It a Try
Rather than surrender and allow reluctant singers to opt out of singing, the
subjects stressed that all students are obliged to give it a try. This singing mandate
was another way the subjects illustrated their larger beliefs about Orff Schulwerk.
The reason for this lack of choice is because all students must participate in all of the
Orff Schulwerk media: singing, moving, speaking rhythmically, and playing
instruments. Kelly and Robert spoke to the fact that they establish a rule that
everyone sings in music class.
Kelly: I also go in with the expectation that [singing] is just what you do. And
I dont make any apologies for that. Im just, Nope this is what we are going
to do today, and I dont give them an out, you know, for not participating.
Thats just an expectation, and you at least give it a try. So I haven't ever
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allowed them to say, No, were not going to do that. I'm like, No,
everybody gives it a try.
Robert: And so my singing rule, as my kids know, my singing rule is that

when we sing, we sing. Some of you are gonna sing your hearts out, some of
you just barely gonna sing, but you wouldnt sit at the xylophones, and just sit
there and not play. Its understood when we are at the xylophones, were
playing. Same thing with singing. And I remind the kids that I am not a great
singer, but people love to sing. . . . You dont get to go to the xylophones and
one person puts the mallets down. Were all doing it. Theres no choice. So
when youre singing, its gotta be the same way. You cant opt out of it. I say
that to the kids. And by saying that to them . . . I think I gave them the safety
of that enforcement. I mean, most of the kids want to sing. So for the few kids
who maybe wouldnt, Im saying, You gotta sing. Well the truth is, the kid
probably likes to sing, but maybe wouldnt choose to.
Joy and Beauty
Other factors related to the subjects and their students love of music making
are the elements of joy and beauty that they find in the Orff Schulwerk approach. The
playful learning of Orff Schulwerk lends itself to student joy, which for several
participants is number one. Robert spoke about the artistry, the beauty of being
musical.
Robert: You know, I got from [my teacher and mentor] the whole concept of
joy or beauty, the fun. He would say, Tell me about the joy in your
classroom. And I am always saying my teachers, I dont want to hear about
dorian mode yet. Tell me about the joy. What did you do this week? What
made the kids happy? Number one is the joy. I mean, thats gotta be it. I
mean, you go to any Orff classroom where the teacher knows what she or he
is doing, and it should be joyful.
Peter: I love teaching anything where theyre all laughing. That could be us all
doing a dance, or it could be a theoretical study, where were just being
ridiculous and assigning personalities to the little things theyre interacting in
the study. I guess, getting more specific, I love teaching anything where
theyre really making music and enjoying what theyre doing.
Janet: They love to play games. Isn't that just great because that's what
humanity loves to do. We love to be engaged in playful learning.
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Joanna: Well, I think just of the joy on the faces of those kids. I mean Im just
thinking about the little ones, when theyre doing Alabama Gal, they just
couldnt stop smiling. They just couldnt and theres nothing like a classroom
of second graders who are almost out of control with joy, with sheer joy.
Robert: [Y]ou know, [my mentor teacher] saidI didnt know what beauty
was. I still don'tbut he had a way of saying, Come on, are you beautiful?
Are you moving beautifully? Are you singing beautifully? And do you
impress me that there is a level of artistry to Orff Schulwerk? Then I could
be called upon to think that way.
Orff Schulwerk isnt fluff. Robert elaborated on his thoughts about the artistry
of Orff Schulwerk. He was committed to maintaining high standards in Orff
Schulwerk. This was an idea that was imparted to him by another of his mentors.
Robert: From [another of my mentors], who was my teacher of course, even

though she wasnt my levels teacher, just saying, Dont tell the kids that its
good when its not good, because when it is good, they dont care. They know
you just say it all the time. And she would say, If youre gonna use the word
excellent, be careful with that. Often, the people who didnt like [her]
would be critical because they thought she was too critical. I would just say to
them, Shes just telling the truth. Orff Schulwerk isnt fluff. We are called
that by some of our colleagues, who dont respect us as much as they should.
And so, Im trying to carry that torch from [my mentor] and say, Come on
guys, step it up here. Its Orff Schulwerk. We know about all the joy and fun
and thats so important, but (trails off).
We Dont Compete
Peter and Robert expounded on the quality of their choirs. Peter is pleased
with the sound of his choir, although he says that someone else might not agree.
Robert believes that is it most important for his students to continue to sing,
regardless of the quality of their voices. He believes that choir should be a fun activity
open to all of his students.
JS: Are they good it? Does your choir sound good?
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Peter: I think so. I mean, I'm happy with how they sound. I think it's a little
bit of a relative judgment. Somebody else would listen to my choir and
probably say, You don't have them singing in perfect unison, or Their tone
is a little brash. Or whatever. Somebody else would probably listen and say,
Oh my gosh. I wish I had kids that sang with that much volume.
JS: Do they all match pitch?
Peter: Yes.
Robert: More than half of the kids [from my upper school] are in the chorus
and I think, and this might sound a bit too proud, but I think it's largely in part
due to my approach of singing and reminding kids that it's fun to sing. You
dont have to be a great singer, it's just a fun thing to do. Come and sing in
my chorus. We dont go to festivals because we wouldnt get scores. We
dont compete. Some of the kids only come once a week. It's only a two-day
activity. It's nice for the kids. But they sing, and so all the way to 12th grade,
half of the upper school, they sing. It's wonderful.
And I dont think it would be that way if I'd been a better singer because then
I would be more involved in the competitive. . . . My chorus would sound
better probably because I wouldnt want all those kidspeople who arent
great singersso it works so well.
Positioning Teacher Beliefs
Larger, overarching belief systems shape smaller ones. Recall that Pajares
wrote, Belief substructures, such as educational beliefs, must be understood in terms
of their connections not only to each other but also to other, perhaps more central
beliefs in the system (1992, p. 325). Therefore, we can make a case that the
pedagogical, curricular priority, efficacy, and self-concept beliefs of the participants
are nested in their larger belief systems about being actively involved and, first and
foremost, Orff Schulwerk teachers.
Pedagogical and Curricular Priority Beliefs
The pedagogical and curricular beliefs of the participants are nested in their
larger beliefs regarding active involvement as learners. Whether using singing to
teach a musical concept, as a tool, for sheer enjoyment, or as a separate activity such
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as choir, the participants mode of instruction is the Orff process. By its very nature,
the Orff process is discovery-oriented, encouraging student choice, freedom, and
creativity. Curricular beliefs also are nested in the participants beliefs about being
actively involved. Even though curricular priority may change alongside students
learning progress, beginning and more advanced students all learn through hands-on,
active techniques.
Pedagogical Beliefs: Actively Involved
As the participants discussed their pedagogical beliefs, it was difficult to
separate their comments from those in which they discussed active involvement.
Actively involved is the overriding philosophy of everything they do
pedagogically. Being actively involved is the essence of the Orff process, as
illustrated by Joanna:
Joanna: I still think its the most rewarding way to teach and learn music
because it feels so much like part of it is coming from the students. It doesnt
feel like a dictatorship; it feels like people are taking ownership over their
learning because they are involved in music making.
Janet, who teaches choral music, explained how she uses active learning by breaking
down a part, thereby allowing the more difficult music to emerge through a step-by-
step process:
Janet: I love teaching vocal music and having it emerge from a kind of wide
range of activities, and so in that way its more convergent. . . . [I]f I think
something is a little too hard for the kids, I might find a way to reduce their
vocal content of the line to something that they can play on the barred
instruments, and then go back and give a more complex version to them, as
they begin to sing vocally.
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Curricular Priority Beliefs: Actively Involved
The comprehensive ideas of the participants beliefs about curricular priority
were the distinctions they made between their teaching techniques with beginners and
with more advanced students. Active involvement with the beginning, or younger
students was clearly illustrated through the participants explanations of their class
work:
Sarah: Example third gradeHush, Little Minnieso the kids walk in and
Im singing the song, we immediately, we learn the dance. We might go to the
instruments and play the melodic outline on the instruments imitatively and
then were singing it again while we play that and then half the class would go
back and do the singing dance again while some play the accompaniment.
As the students become more advanced and are able to read music, one might
think they would be less actively involved in the decision making and more apt to sit
and read the parts from music stands or folders. However, Janet, who teaches middle
school students, illustrated that active involvement continues at this level:
Janet: Oh, they love to create. They actuallyI mean, if you can sequence it
correctly they can move from writing rhythmic pieces in the elemental form
and expand it to pitched pieces using either a pentatonic scale or a
pentachordal melody. And once they have a melody that they've constructed
that's playableand we're talking about Orff instruments now, barred
instrumentsI really think it's fun to be all to say, Why don't you try adding
a second part? Why don't you see if you can add a simple accompaniment
part. And at that point in time they really own their own music.
Efficacy Beliefs: Actively Involved
The participants beliefs about their effectiveness as teachers of singing are
related to their beliefs about active involvement. Their beliefs about students
reluctance to sing, their pleasure when their students take to singing like its birthday
cake and ice cream, and their beliefs about credibility as teacher educators are all
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grounded in their larger beliefs that everyone should be an active learner in the Orff
Schulwerk process. For these participants, singing is not an elitist activity for the
select few; singing is a human activity, in which everyone should participate.
Robert: You dont have to be a great singer, its just a fun thing to do. Come
and sing in my chorus. . . . [A]nd so, all the way to 12th grade, half of the upper
school, they sing. Its wonderful.
Self-Concept: Nested in Larger Beliefs about First and Foremost,
I Am an Orff Schulwerk Teacher
Most of the participants of this study believed as undergraduate students that
they would be teaching music subjects that coincided with their perceived strengths as
musicians. Since most believed their strengths to be in areas other than singing,
teaching general music had not occurred to them. Robert attested to this:
Robert: I never thought Id be doing this ever when I was an undergraduate. I

never thought Id be teaching a dance to anybody or a song for that matter. I
saw myself as being high school theory teacher. . . . And so, I taught Orff
Schulwerk and in my undergraduate student teaching, and I liked it and
everyone said it worked.
However, once they were introduced to Orff Schulwerk, as preservice music teachers,
in several cases, their expectations changed. Because Orff Schulwerk offered
instruction in singing, playing instruments, and moving, and because they were drawn
to other aspects of the approach, the subjects decided to teach music at the elementary
level, despite their perceived shortcomings as singers.

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CHAPTER 8: CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Summary of the Study
The purpose of this study was to examine the beliefs of Orff Schulwerk
teacher educators about singing. Eight Orff Schulwerk teacher educators who teach
both children and adults were interviewed for the study, in which interview questions
were related to these research questions:
singing?
singing?
singing?
From the data that were collected through the eight interviews, it seems clear
that the teacher educators who participated in this study believe that singing is one of
the Orff Schulwerk media that is incorporated into their teaching with intention.
The teacher educators who were the participants in this study shared several
teaching techniques that they use as Orff Schulwerk instructors. In their classes,
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students sometimes sing a song that is taught for the purpose of making conscious a
melodic or rhythmic concept. According to the participants, when students learn an
instrumental piece, they may first sing the melody to get it in their heads. In these
instances, singing is used more as a tool for learning. Other times, singing is
performed by itselfjust for the joy of itin the form of holiday songs, all-school
songs, or canons that are taught by rote. Still other times, the students may participate
in singing experiences, such as sing-alongs or choir, which are separate from the
other Orff Schulwerk media. Even when the singing is performed in isolation, the
subjects still claim that they teach the songs using the Orff process.
The ways in which singing is incorporated and prioritized in Orff Schulwerk
classes may shift as students develop more advanced instrumental skills. Since
singing is the main melodic instrument for beginning students, they sing every day.
More advanced Orff Schulwerk students, who can play more difficult instrumental
pieces, may work only on an instrumental piece for one week or only on a part-song
when preparing for a program the next week. One of the interviewees maintains that
the amount of singing remains the same in grades K-5, while other subjects claim the
amount of singing decreases as the students instrumental skills become more
advanced.
The positive experiences with singing that the participants have had led them
to want their students to have that experience as well. Therefore, the participants
make an effort to be effective teachers of singing. When their students are reluctant to
sing, they continue singing anyway, in order to establish singing as a habit. In

91
addition, the teachers attempt to make singing more appealing to their students by
being deliberate about choosing music that is appealing, age-appropriate, and that has
a singing range within which the students can successfully sing. Although the
participants are delighted when their students enjoy singing, they admit that
sometimes it is a challenge to include singing in each class, especially as the students
are able to play more sophisticated instrumental pieces and perform more
complicated dances.
Some of the participants shared their belief that they are more effective as
teachers of singing or any other activity when they teach pieces to their child students
before teaching them to adults. When they present workshops or serve as instructors
in Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses, they believe they have more credibility
when the approaches and processes they use to teach the pieces have already been
found to be successful with children.
The subjects of this study all have strong beliefs regarding the joy of singing,
which were firmly established during their childhoods. They associate singing with
fond memories of their fathers, mothers, siblings, and other family members. Even
though they believe in the value and joy of singing, several of the participants in this
study do not believe that they have good singing voices. Most, however, reported that
they have enjoyed singing in large groups, such as college choirs, choirs in the Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses they attended as students, and in other tutti
singing sessions in Orff Schulwerk courses where they are the instructors.
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Finally, participants beliefs about singing are nested in their larger beliefs
about the importance of students being actively involved in the learning process and
about their beliefs in their identities as Orff Schulwerk teachers. By their own
accounts, the elements of choice, freedom, and creativity were the main factors that
attracted them to the Orff Schulwerk approach. Those opportunities to make
decisions, in turn, led to the joy and beauty that the participants claim was another
factor that drew them to Orff Schulwerk. Robert said, Number one is the joy. I
mean, thats gotta be it. I mean, you go to any Orff classroom, where the teacher
knows what she or he is doing, and it should be joyful. These teacher educators hold
their current positions today because they found that joy, beauty, choice and freedom
in Orff Schulwerk, and it was a perfect fit.
Drawing Connections: Revisiting the Review of the Literature
Brenner (2006) wrote: Because the purpose of research is to contribute to a
larger body of knowledge, researchers need to compare their results with other
studies (p. 367). While analyzing the data for this study, I identified connections
between the literature I had reviewed previously and the findings of this interview
study. The commonalities were found mostly in the research on teacher belief. To a
lesser extent, comparisons were found in the research with Orff practitioners as
subjects and in the studies that examined singing in the context of Orff Schulwerk.
Research on Teacher Belief
We can draw many comparisons between the current study and the existing
research on teacher belief. While the predominance of current research on teacher

93
belief centers on beliefs of preservice teachers, this study focused on the beliefs of
experienced teachers. However, since the results of the current study also yielded
information about the participants experience as preservice teachers, some
comparisons among those studies can be drawn.
Several of the propositions about teacher belief that Pajares (1992) concluded
in his Synthesis of Findings on Belief (pp. 324-326) were mentioned in the Review
of the Literature for this study. Of those nine assumptions identified at the beginning
of this paper, three were consistent with the beliefs of the teachers in this study.
Those three will be discussed here.
Beliefs Are Formed Early
The suppositions that Beliefs are formed early and tend to self-perpetuate,
persevering even against contradictions caused by reason, time, schooling, or
experience and that the earlier a belief is incorporated into the belief structure, the
more difficult it is to alter (pp. 324-325) are supported by the findings of the current
study. All of the subjects beliefs about the importance of singing were established, at
least in some measure, in the music-making experiences they shared with family
members from a young age. For example, Janet related a story about making music
with her family and importance her parents placed on music education for their
children.
Janet: My parents, and neither one, really read music, but they understood --
my dad especially, aurally how music worked, and gave me that whole
language of understanding through the ear. They also then became totally,
totally convinced that we needed to do more. So they made sure that we had
piano lessons, so that we could read music.
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Janets beliefs about the importance of singing have persevered. Even though
she is an Orff Schulwerk teacher educator, she teaches choral music to middle school
students. Her choir classes, however, are taught using the Orff process, and she
teaches Orff instrument pieces in that setting. Near the end of her interview, Janet
made a plea for the importance of singing in Orff Schulwerk that was reminiscent of
Regner and Frazee (cf., p. 11; cf., p. 81).
Janet: I don't know, I just think that, to not lose track of singing as we move
more towards elemental music is really important because we could become
something that people say. Oh those are those people who are just bang on
instruments, and it would be such a tragedy if that perception were all
allowed to continue. Or if that was the only thing that Orff Schulwerk meant
in the United States is you get those instruments out and bang on them. It's
our job to make sure that doesn't happen.
Belief Change
Pajaress statement that Belief change during adulthood is a relatively rare
phenomenon, the most common cause being a conversion from one authority to
another or a gestalt shift may also be related to the evidence given about the
participants belief changes after experiencing Orff Schulwerk as young adult
preservice teachers. Their conversion to elementary music and to Orff Schulwerk
during their preservice teaching experience may have taken place because the
activities were observed in the context of the elementary classroom, where the
students witnessed first-hand that Orff Schulwerk was successful with children.
College Student Beliefs
According to Pajares, Beliefs about teaching are well established by the time
a student gets to college (p. 326). Even though college students beliefs may be well
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established, the current study found that those beliefs are not rigid. Several of the
participants in this study began college thinking they would be band or choir
directors. Others, who thought they would teach elementary music, had only
experienced textbook lessons until they entered college. Once they were exposed to
Orff Schulwerk through field experiences or student teaching, they were drawn to the
joy, the freedom, and the creativity, and they decided to teach elementary music,
rather than secondary band or choir.
Sarah, Peter, and Joanna first learned about Orff Schulwerk in their
undergraduate years. Sarah experienced Orff Schulwerk during her study in Austria,
then she was placed with a cooperating teacher who had taken Orff Schulwerk
teacher educations classes.
Sarah: [A]s an undergraduate, I spent a semester in Vienna studying music

with a group from [university name] and one of our field trips was a course
called Music Education in Europe was to the Orff Institute. So as a 19-year-
old, I went to the Orff Institute and spent the day. So I had that in the back of
my mind that that might be something of interest to pursue and then I student
taught with a woman who had Orff training.
Peter was placed with an Orff Schulwerk teacher for his student teaching
experience. He felt hesitant at first, not knowing exactly what Orff Schulwerk was.
Once he witnessed the approach in action however, he found that Orff Schulwerk was
a perfect match.
Peter: And so I went in with a lot of apprehension. Very guarded. And within
the first couple of days, it was a perfect match. . . . And so, it was really that
experience that shored it up. I said I love this. This is what I want, and I
didn't know that until really late, late, late in my college career. I spent my
whole college career thinking, I'm teaching high school. That's what
everybody wants to do. So that's what really made me want to teach Orff
levels; not teach, but take Orff levels.
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Joannas experience with an Orff Schulwerk cooperating teacher also greatly
influenced her future:
Joanna: [T]he best thing [my college elementary methods professor] ever did
was place me for my student teaching with someone who had just completed
her Orff levels. . . . Her name was [teacher name], and she later went on to be
the president of the [local Orff Schulwerk] chapter. So, somehow [my
methods professor] knew that I needed the right teacher. . . . I think I started
student teaching either right in fall or perhaps in the spring right after she
completed her Level III. So, she was really excited about Orff and thats what
drew me to thinking about studying. And I studied theI took Level I the
very summer after I graduated from college.
Recall that Tillema (2000) suggested that beliefs accompany and coincide
with action (p. 577). He proposed that education students beliefs about teaching are
constructed alongside their student teaching experiences. Tillemas study explored
ways in which preservice teacher beliefs could best be altered, posing the idea that
reflection after practice may be a more professionally fruitful way of effecting belief
change than reflectively preparing student teachers before they enter their teaching
practice (p. 575). Tillema appears to agree with Pajares that college students enter
school with well-established beliefs about teaching; however, Tillema adds that, when
given early experience in teaching practice, these beliefs can be accommodated to fit
with their newfound realities. Whether practice occurs before or after reflection,
practice immersion has a primary and decisive effect upon the teachers building and
construction of beliefs which accompany and clarify their actual performance
(Tillema, p. 586).
Unlike the college curricula of the participants in the current study, Tillemas
study employed a curriculum intended to bring about change in the participants

97
beliefs. The college courses in which the participants of my study were enrolled did
not have the same intention of affecting belief change. Nevertheless, the subjects of
my research were strongly influenced by their pre-student teaching observations and
by their student teaching experiences. These experiences caused them to go through a
shift toward considering teaching elementary, rather than secondary, music.
Julian: We went and saw [my elementary methods professor and [another
teacher, who] shared a job at this school and were showing us exactly what
they were showing us in the class. And suddenly, it was a real thing and it was
fascinating, to think that you could get kids to do things that, of course I had
never done, until I was in high school or college. So that was pretty amazing.
Joanna: The kids, the involvement. And everybody had something to do.
Studies on Orff Schulwerk
Studies with Orff Schulwerk Practitioners
Parallels and differences can be drawn between the current study and the
previous studies with Orff Schulwerk practitioners as subjects (OHehir, 2005;
Taylor, 2004). Although the participants of OHehirs study were all teacher
educators like those in the current study, the practitioners of Taylors study had
differing levels of expertise.
Recall that OHehir drew 118 statements from the Guidelines for the teacher
educators to rate agreement with the importance level of the statements; 94 statements
were identified as best practices in Orff Schulwerk, of which nine referenced singing.
Comments from the teachers in the current study support the best practices statements
identified in OHehirs study, while providing a broader view of why and how
participants believe these statements to be true. Four of OHehirs statements were

98
discussed by the participants in detail: appropriate keys, vocal model, playing
instruments, and balanced combination.
The participants of the current study would agree that The teacher selects
appropriate keys to support the vocal range and quality of students singing. They
provided further evidence of how they select repertoire to accommodate the qualities
of students voices in statements like Joannas:
And so what we had was a lot of 7th grade boys who were just singing out, just
singing, grumbling along. Even if they maybe could have gone back into their
head voice, they weren't told to. So a solution that we were coming up with
for middle school that's working pretty well was to kind of write a second
part. So Joshua Fought the Battle of Jerichowe wrote a 7th grade boy line.
. . . Yeah, [the boy line] had a much narrower range, fewer words in itI
think it freed the girls up to enjoy the higher notes and it freed the boys up to
do like some (singing) drum-ba-ru-rum, ba-da-rum-da-rum. They loved that!
Another best practices statement identified in OHehirs study was: Teacher
models correct singing technique, Janet gave an example of her belief that providing
the best possible vocal model for students was very importanta belief that was
instilled in her when she was a student in Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses:
I just think the model of using good vocal technique whenever you're teaching
children is the single most important thing that any of us can do. To model
sound beautifully (trails off). The words you say about it are of so little
importance. Really, what they're copying is the sound of your own singing
voice, the sound of your own recorder. . . . [My Orff Schulwerk teachers] did
not accept sloppy vocal models or out of tune singing. And we knew that we
were expected to sing beautifully and in tune.
The teachers in OHehirs study agreed that One purpose of playing
instruments is to enhance and support singing. Teachers in the current study report
one reason that students play instruments is to accompany themselves as they sing.
According to Peter and Joanna:

99
Peter: We work on singing and keeping a steady beat, and then once weve
established those things then we go to the instruments. And at first we only
play the drone while were singing the melody.
Joanna: Always. We always sing it.
There is a balanced combination of childrens vocal and instrumental
activities is another of the best practices statements identified by OHehir. The
teacher educators in the current study gave evidence of their desire to carefully
balance singing and playing instruments. However, the balance seems to be easier
when the children are in 2nd or 3rd gradewhen their singing skills and their
instrumental skills are more equal.
Joanna: Like, for example, in third grade, at the end of their medieval feast,
they had, they did a song [for a folk tale we were performing], and we wrote
words for the double canon. . . . And then, they figured out how to play it on
the bars. And there was a verse where they sang it and verse where they
played it.
Prior to developing strong instrumental skills, the emphasis is more on singing.
Peter: In first grade, we dont get to go to the instruments for a while because
we work on singing, for probably for the first two months, almost 3 months of
school. We work on singing and keeping a steady beat, and then once weve
established those things, then we go to the instruments.
Once instrumental skills become more advanced, the inclusion of singing becomes
more of a challenge, and, because of their level of difficulty, singing and playing
become separate activities.
Julian: The idea that its always singing, saying, dancing, playing, by the
upper grades, either you have to keep everything so simplistic so they can do
it all at once, or if you try to do things that are at their level of sophistication,
you cant do all of those things at once because you cant do very
sophisticated singing and movement, and rhythm play all in a half hour.
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Based on observations of recognized Orff Schulwerk instructors, Taylor
(2004) identified target instructions given during classes with children; 10 items were
related to singing. The only target Taylor quoted in his study was Sing the names of
the notes while you play your xylophones (p. 122). This kind of simultaneous work
was reported in the current study in only a few instances.
Peter: And a lot of times I will have them just sing it while they play it.
Challenge them to say, Can you make sure that what you are singing is
happening at the same time you're playing? Is your voice following your
hand? Are your hands following your voice or are they right together?
Studies that Examine Singing in Orff Schulwerk
The three singing studies cited here are quantitative in nature and focused on
comparing the teaching of singing (Muse, 1994) and on teachers perceived
percentage of time spent on music activities, including singing (Sogin & Wang, 2008;
Wang & Sogin, 1997). These three studies centered on teacher practices, rather than
on teacher beliefs. However, one comparison can be drawn. Sogin and Wang (2008)
reported in the conclusion of their study: Orff teachers often say that singing is their
most important component in elementary music and the results of this study support
that notion (2008, p. 274). The teacher educators in the current study did not convey
that singing is the most important medium; rather, their statements indicate that, with
beginning students, they believe singing in Orff Schulwerk is balanced with playing
instruments and moving. The participants differed in their assessment of the emphasis
on singing with more advanced students. Once instrumental skills are in place, some
participants reported that singing occurs in approximate equal measure with the other
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media, although it is usually separated. Others reported that less priority is placed on
singing as the students instrumental skills become more advanced, and the
proportion of singing decreases.
Recommendations for Further Study
Based on the findings of the current study, several recommendations and
implications for subsequent research are proposed, in order to continue to examine
singing in Orff Schulwerk and music teacher beliefs about singing. With regard to
further research that needs to be conducted in the area of teacher belief, Richardson
(1996) wrote:
Although empirical work has been conducted that links beliefs to practices, it
cannot be assumed that all changes in beliefs translate into changes in
practices, certainly not practices that may be considered worthwhile. . . This
concern calls for research that examines both beliefs and actions and perhaps
further develops the concept of praxis within teaching and teacher education.
(p. 114).
Since this interview study bases teacher belief only on what the participants
say, research needs to be conducted to inspect whether expert Orff Schulwerk
teachers actions in the classroom reflect the beliefs they express verbally in this
study. The only way to truly measure their practices would be to observe their actual
teaching with children and/or adults. Future research may show how beliefs are
related to practice and/or how beliefs may be changed through practice.

102
This study sought to understand Orff Schulwerk teacher educators beliefs
about singing. Future research might replicate the current study to examine beliefs
about singing of Orff Schulwerk instructors who are not teacher educators. Another
replication study might look at beliefs about singing of Kodly, Dalcroze, or Music
Learning Theory instructors or teacher educators. Other aspects of general music,
such as music literacy, moving to music, improvisation, and playing instruments
could be examined for teacher beliefs regarding their roles and importance.
A longitudinal study might examine teacher beliefs about singing, playing
instruments, and moving as the adult students enter a Level I Orff Schulwerk course
and again two years later, when they complete Level III. This study could investigate
whether participation in Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses impacts their
beliefs about teaching singing, playing instruments, and movement.
Several of the subjects of this study referred to their voices as untrained or
not the best. Robert even dubbed to himself as a non-singer. A study is needed to
examine what music teachers mean when they say they do not have a good voice. If a
music teacher does not believe he has a good voice, how does he define what is a
good voice? Inquiry on these topics would be useful in further understanding music
teachers self-concept beliefs about their voices. A follow-up to the inquiry of
defining a good or not good voice could examine how music teachers beliefs
about their voices relate to the choices they make in their music curricula.
The Orff Schulwerk teacher educators in this study spoke of the challenge of
including singing in their lessons, especially as the students become more advanced
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in their musical abilities. Future research might examine whether other Orff
Schulwerk teachers must make a conscious effort to include singing. Is singing
more often the medium that teachers are challenged to include? Perhaps for others,
the challenge is to include movement or improvisation. How much is the challenge
related to the teachers own strengths?
The participants of this study clearly were influenced by their preservice
music teacher experiences in college. In several cases, it was their university methods
courses, their field experiences, or their student teaching that influenced them to
become elementary music teachers and to take Orff Schulwerk courses. A future
study might examine the impact of teacher education courses on preservice music
teachers vocational decisions.
Recommendations for Music Teacher Education
Voice Classes for Instrumentalists
Choir and either voice lessons or voice class were required courses for all of
the instrumental music m who participated in this study. Based on the experiences
they had, it seems that the teaching of singing to instrumental majors is a priority for
some universities. The encounters with choir and voice lessons that the subjects of
this study had during their college years received mixed reviews. Sometimes the
classes were taught by novice instructors; other times the participants felt that they
did not have adequate preparation for the course content they were expected to
achieve. Most of the subjects of this study emerged from their college music
programs with a low self-concept of their voices.

104
Universities should examine the goals and expected outcomes of required
vocal classes for instrumentalists to determine their effectiveness. A longitudinal
study that examines instrumentalists self-concept beliefs about their voices upon
entry to the university and again following their completion of required vocal classes
would be useful to determine the effectiveness of participation in required voice
courses.
Orff Schulwerk Teacher Education
A committee of the American Orff-Schulwerk Association is currently
working to review and revise the Guidelines for Orff Schulwerk Teacher Training
Courses Levels I, II, III (1997). If singing in Orff Schulwerk is important, and if
teachers self-concept about their voices is important, the Guidelines should be more
explicit about vocal training. Supplemental materials would aid the work of teacher
educators and, in turn, may help teacher educators and their adult students to feel
more secure about singing. In addition, dedicated class time or explicit time
requirements for singing are needed.
Earlier in this paper, I wrote:
Based on the Guidelines, various interpretations of the importance of singing in

Orff teacher education are possible, and these interpretations, in turn, may arise
from Orff teacher educators beliefs about singing. Perhaps some instructors
believe that levels course participants have already learned how to sing and
how to teach singing in their undergraduate music education courses. Perhaps
some believe that, because of limited instructional time, emphasis should be
placed on the curricular components that are unique to the Orff approach (i.e.
Orff instruments, movement, improvisation), rather than on singing. Perhaps
some instructors believe that they are ineffective as vocal models. (cf., p. 12)
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The findings of this study suggest that some Orff Schulwerk teacher educators
believe that they are ineffective as vocal models, and they believe that they do not
have good singing voices. It follows that some teacher educators may not feel
confident as instructors of singing. Adult students who enroll in Orff Schulwerk
teacher education courses may also feel insecure about their voices. Therefore,
supplemental material on vocal production and singing pedagogy with children would
be useful to provide in the updated Guidelines. These resources could be made
available to Orff Schulwerk teacher educators in the Supporting Materials of the
updated Guidelines.
Also with regard to the Guidelines, I wrote earlier about the ambiguous
amount of time required for singing:
Whereas dedicated class time or written assignments are required for speech,
playing instruments, and movement, neither is required for singing. The
integration of singing and the amount of time that is devoted to it are, in large
part, left up to the instructor. Perhaps this lack of specificity has led toward
perceptions that singing has been neglected in Orff Schulwerk. (cf., p. 11)
Dedicated class time and more specificity regarding singing instruction in Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses are needed in the Guidelines. Although not
currently recommended in the Guidelines, many Orff Schulwerk teacher education
courses have a tradition of a choir hour in the daily schedule. According to the
participants in this study, that tradition may be on the decline.
Judging by the accounts of this study, child students of Orff Schulwerk often
participate in a choral experience as they become more advanced. In most cases, choir
is taught by the Orff Schulwerk instructors. Not only is there a choral tradition in
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some Orff Schulwerk in the U.S.; there is historical precedent for a choral tradition in
Orff Schulwerk. Choral singing was an important aspect of instruction at the
Gntherschule. Orff described the inclusion of choral singing in his approach to
music education as an essential element (1976, p. 63). Karl Marx, an experienced
choral director and former student of Orff, joined the staff to work with the choir. In
keeping with the purposes of the Gntherschule, the choir performed pieces that they
could sing and dance simultaneously. In addition, Orff wrote that the students
improvised in the choral setting. Later, those improvisations were transferred to other
instruments.
Given that:
choral music is often taught by Orff Schulwerk teachers to their child
students;
Orff Schulwerk teachers, in many cases, may not have received ample training
in choral music;
there has been a successful tradition of choral music in Orff Schulwerk in the
U.S.;
there is historical precedent for choir as a part of Orff Schulwerk that was
instated by Carl Orff himself,
a recommendation is made to the Guidelines Review Steering Committee of the
American Orff-Schulwerk Association that a choral hour becomes a required part of
the Orff Schulwerk teacher education course day. A skeletal modela good startof
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how choral music within the context of Orff Schulwerk could look can be found in
Carl Orffs The Schulwerk (1978).
Final Thoughts
At the beginning of this paper, I related a story about hearing a concert
presented by an Orff ensemble at the national conference of AOSA, where the
students singing did not measure up to their level of the playing and moving. It was
an epiphany for me, when I admitted for the first time that my colleagues who
criticized singing in Orff Schulwerk might have a point. This realization made me
question whether there was less emphasis placed on singing than on the other media,
or whether singing might be considered less important than the other media. As I
have spent months reflecting on the data that were gathered and analyzed for this
study, I have come to better understand the beliefs of my Orff Schulwerk colleagues
about singing.
First, singing isnt more or less important than the other media. Singing is one
of the Orff Schulwerk media. Perhaps outsiders to Orff Schulwerk view singing as
somehow marginalized because there is a spectrum of experiences occurring during
an Orff Schulwerk class or performance (AOSA, 2008, p. v). The focus is not only on
singing; the focus is on the music making in all of its various ways. Robert said:
I'm always reminding [my students] that Orff Schulwerk is a wonderful music
class because, I'll say, Some of you guys are dancers. I watch you move, and
you're incredible. Some of us arent, I'm not a dancer, but I like to do it, so I'll
do that for a little bit. Some of you love the percussion. You really come alive
when thats going on. You dont like to dance so much, and so etc., etc.
Some of you love to sing, and some of you not so much. I said, The great
thing about this class is, it isnt just a singing class or just dance class, because
108
then, a lot of you would hate most of the class. We do a lot of different
things.
Second, the teacher educators of this study understand that they have students
who are just like them. They may be excellent music makers, but they may not have
the best vocal instruments. The subjects of this study are advocates of singing for the
fun of it, and they believe that people should sing, regardless of the quality of their
vocal instrument. Robert, who views his imperfect voice as an asset to his teaching,
illustrated the point:
Robert: I think, in some ways my liability as a singer has become an asset as a

teacher. . . . [My adult students] figure out on their own that Im not a
singerbut that its important because there are plenty of adults Im teaching
who also arent singers and they need to know how. I dont care if you sing
well or not. Youre not gonna deprive your students of singing just because
you arent a good singer
In some cases, the teacher educators in this study who are instrumentalists chose an
instrument because they loved to make music, they were excellent musicians, but
singing wasnt their strength. It makes sense that they would be drawn to Orff
Schulwerkan approach to teaching music that includes more than just singing.
Finally, I would like to reflect on the participants beliefs about curricular
priority. The idea of the media in combination for younger students is appropriate to
the developmental continuum. The use of active, hands-on, multiple-media activities
is consistent with how young children learn. As children grow older, reaching
adolescence, their abilities lend themselves more to reading music, to performing
multiple parts in an ensemble, and to the desire to be challenged. In addition, older
students have a need to have some control, some decision-making power in the
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learning process. As the students progress in age and ability, it makes sense then, that
they have preferences and that the musical activities in their Orff Schulwerk classes
will become more individualized and more sophisticated. Orff Schulwerk, with its
many media, gives students a chance to excel as musicianswhether as singers,
instrumentalists, dancers, or, for the really talented, some combination thereof.
110
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Appendix A
Transcript of Interview with Janet
JS: So the recording has begun. And I'm here with Janet. Today is July, 26, I do
believe. And we're going to talk a little bit about singing and about your experiences
with Orff Schulwerk. The first thing I want to ask, Janet, is how long have you taught
children; how many years have you taught children?
JANET: I've taught children for 37 years.
JS: Good lord. I think you win. (Laughter)
JANET: It must be time to retire.
JS: No, but that's a lot. And how many years have you taught adults?
JANET: I have taught adults for about 20 years. The first year I was on faculty at
[university name] was 1992.
JS: Okay. And tell me where you did your Orff Schulwerk teacher education
courseswe're calling them nowwhere did you do that?
JANET: I started a Level I in [university name]. I did Level I after I had already been
teaching for several years, so I brought a little more experience to that experience
than many people do.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: I did Level II at [another university name].
JS: Who are the teachers at the two universities? Just so I will know.
JANET: The teachers at [my Level I university][teacher name] was the basic
teacher and [teacher name] was in her first year of recorder teaching and [teacher
name] was the movement teacher.
JS: Okay.
JANET: And then in [the city where I took Level II], my primary teacher was
[teacher name]. And my recorder teacher was [teacher name] and my movement
teacher was a Laban teacher, and, at the moment, her name escapes me.
JS: Okay.
117
JANET: Level III, I had moved back across the country, and kind of my training was
determined by where I lived. So I went to [another university name] to do Level III.
And my basic teachers were [two teacher names]. My movement teacher was [teacher
name], again. And my recorder teacher was [teacher name]. And I think that's all.
JS: Okay. Okay. That's what I wanted to know. I'm trying to get a well rounded...
JANET: Strands?
JS: Yep, and I've been calling them strands too, so, but trying to get people from a lot
of different experiences and I think Ive succeeded. So we'll start the official
interview now. I'd like for you to tell me about your earliest memories of singing.
Now, maybe it was with your parents singing with you or to you and then, let's go
through -- if you could go through kind of sequentially through elementary school,
junior high and high school. Let's talk about your public school experience.
JANET: Sure. I can't remember a time when I didn't sing because my parents were
country-western musicians.
JS: I didn't know that.
JANET: And the famous family story is that when we were in our cradles, they were
performing on stage and there were many people who were in their group that they
performed with, were square dancers in the Midwest, that had children at the same
time, and that they would be rocking the cradles on the stage while they were
performing.
JS: Wow.
JANET: And so, for me, music has always been a natural evolution of the family.
And as the kids grew up, we became part up the group and sang onstage, and I'm
always reminded of the fact that it doesn'tI think the family is more important in
training that musician than how much training you had that's classical. My parents,
and neither one, really read music but they understood -- my dad especially, aurally
how music worked, and gave me that whole language of understanding through the
ear. They also then became totally, totally convinced that we needed to do more. So
they made sure that we had piano lessons, so that we could read music.
I went to a one-room schoolhouse and there were only, I think, 9 or 10 students in the
entire K-8 school; through third grade. And so, the concept of music as we think of it
today was very foreign, except the teachers were expected to teach music. And it was
very much part of the time that you spent in the school and you learned from other
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kids because you were in the same space with all grade levels having music at the
same time.
So when I was a fourth grader, I went into the public school in the closest town,
which had about 700 students, no, 700 people in the town. In the school, very few.
There were 25-30 kids at each grade level. And I think the elimination of that
inclusion of music as part of the general classroom work was really noticeable
because we didn't necessarily have very good teachers. It was a very agricultural part
of [state]. And by the time I was in junior high, I actually knew more about music
than most of my music teachers. And by the time I was in high school, I was coaching
all of my friends and their ensembles because it really was not -- the opportunities to
get good music teachers into small towns, it was just not -- it's just not good. And so
we had teachers who really couldn't play the piano, really weren't dedicated to music
at high levels. So starting in about my junior year in high school, I was actually
teaching a lot of music when it came to Solo and Ensemble kinds of work. But I think
one of my most meaningful things I did was it was the era of the folk group. And so, I
and my friends made a folk group that performed that had no adult supervision to it.
JS: It was all the kids.
JANET: It was the high school kids. And we did all of the protest songs.
JS: Peter Paul and Mary...
JANET: Absolutely, absolutely.
JS: Bob Dylan.
JANET: Yes.
JS: Where Have All the Flowers Gone?
JANET: Absolutely.
JS: (Laughter) I loved those songs.
JANET: I've got a hammer. Just really great protest songs in our high school years.
And we graduated in 1968, so we had lots to protest.
JS: Oh, boy. If we could go back just a little bit, when you said, about the one-room
school house, when you were a young elementary child, when the teacher stopped
class and you sang, what were the songs you were singing?
JANET: I don't really remember.

119
JS: You just remember singing.
JANET: I just remember singing. My dad was also a teacher in a one-room

schoolhouse and played guitar and sang with all of his kids. And so, the kind of things
that you would expect from that period of time that were kind of the country folk that
everybody would know in the culture.
JS: And when you went to the public school in the town of 700...
JANET: Those were public schools.
JS: Okay, right.
JANET: The one-room schoolhouse was
JS: When you went to the larger school -- so you didn't have music at all?
JANET: We had music but it was --
JS: It wasn't taught well.
JANET: Open your book to page --
JS: Yeah.
JANET: Whatever.
JS: It was textbooks.
JANET: It was textbooks and not well taught at all. And you and I, Julie, could teach
our textbook and make it pretty interesting, but as a child of a musical family, I
couldn't find much music in it.
JS: So when you got to high school, were you in choir, or were you in orchestra or
band or what was it? Or some of all?
JANET: In small town USA, people are in everything to maintain. So yes, I was in
band and I was in choir.
JS: What was your instrument in band?
JANET: Well, I started out playing the cymbals.

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(Laughter)
JANET: And that lasted until somebody was able to loan me a trumpet. So then I
became a trumpet player. And then that person moved out of town and so I became a
saxophone player.
JS: And all along, youre playing piano.
JANET: All along I'm playing piano. And that was one reason that it was easy to
adapt any instrument that you put in your hands. Musicianship is across the board.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: And actually, I thought, after becoming a music teacher, what a great thing
that I had to learn both a brass instrument and a woodwind instrument to be able to
participate in band.
JS: Wow, that's great. So was there a vocal music teacher or did the band director also
teach choir?
JANET: It changed. Initially it was the same person and then, when I was in high
school, the band teacher also taught Spanish, and he was miserable at both. And the
vocal music teacher, I think, taught the elementary kids as well as high school choir.
JS: What do you remember about that teaching of the choir teacher?
JANET: Other than that she was not very good?
(Laughter)
JANET: I think the best thing that happened for me was that I found my niche
because the teacher was not very good. It allowed me to plug into how much I loved
to teach before I ever left high school.
JS: When you say she wasn't very good, do you mean because of the repertoire she
chose, because she didn't teach the repertoire, or what?
JANET: I don't think she had a vision for being a music teacher. I think it was
something that she'd fallen into, and she probably could kind of sort of read music.
I'm afraid that situation still exists in a lot of places.
JS: Maybe, rural areas, in particular.

121
JANET: Absolutely. And kids who had musical training, even if it's not from a high
level experience, it doesn't take long to actually surpass what the music teacher who
is not a trained musician is able to do.
JS: Okay. Okay, let's go on to college then. Was piano your primary instrument in
college?
JANET: Yes.
JS: And did you also take voice lessons or voice classes? Were you in the choir?
JANET: The university that I went to had a requirement that all kids were performers.
And I'm really grateful for that. So I was in voice lessons, and my primary instrument
was piano. And a lot of my spare time was spent as an accompanist, because I was on
scholarship as an accompanist in the music department. But in the school that I went
to at that point in time, you studied voice and gave juries for voice, as well as your
primary instrument.
JS: Wow. Were you in choir as well?
JANET: Absolutely. I was the accompanist.
JS: Okay. As the accompanist.
JANET: And as a singer.
JS: Okay. What do you remember about the teaching of the voice lessons in the
choir? Or what do you remember about the repertoire or anything?
JANET: For me, being a kid from a small town, actually, from a farm, but having
gone to a small town high school, I just absolutely adored singing in choir. It was like
opening a whole door to music that I had never had the opportunity to walk through.
And I loved, loved, loved being the accompanist and also then, slipping into my role
because it was an cappella choir. But then, having the dual role as a
singer/accompanist. So I formed really strong relationships to the people who were
involved with the choral music at the University. And they actually were mentors to
us as young adults, as well as musicians. And I think they served a critical role in our
lives because they were so much more than just teachers of the moment.
JS: Okay. Well, can we get specific about the music that you sang and the
techniques? Did they work with you on vocal techniques like vowels and round
sounds and consonants? Did they work with you on a beautiful tone quality? What do
you remember about that, if anything?
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JANET: That was pretty consistent. Because if you were not able to cut the
mustard, you were invited to leave as being a major in music.
JS: Ooh.
JANET: At the university I went to, which was a gift to us because it meant we had to
be good at what we did. And in choir the whole idea of making a beautiful sound had
to be taught because most of us were coming from backgrounds that were very
diverse. And so, the whole: how to produce a vowel, how to put a final consonant on,
how to have a particular color quality to your voice in different contexts, in different
kinds of music, really had to be seriously taught. And we learned a lot. And in private
voice, I think you definitely, for me, I was cutting my teeth because I'd never had
Italian art songs. And so I was learning a lot about singing in foreign languages and
having good breath support, and things that I had never been taught before and never
needed to know as a pianist.
JS: I remember getting to SMU and being from Sulphur Springs, Texas, and we were
working on a the Haydn Mass in G, which is a really simple piece now looking back
on it, but it was a big deal to me because I'd never sung in Latin.
JANET: Right.
JS: And I didn't know how everybody already knew how to pronounce the words. So
I just kind of listened and learned right along with them. It was shocking.
(Laughing)
JANET: It's pretty amazing what kids from small towns learn not to do out of self-
defense.
JS: That's right.
JANET: Because you know that you don't know it and so you can absorb quickly if
you had a musical background, you're just labeling things that you know but
somebody needed to help you do that. Two of my favorite things I remember from
college choir were the Liebeslieder Waltzes and singing that beautiful dark sound.
JS: Dark German sound.
JANET: Yes.
JS: Yes.
123
JANET: And then one of my other just really strong memories is having Vaclav
Nelhybel as a guest conductor.
JS: Oh. Really?
JANET: And having him work with our choir and being the accompanist of the
moment for the choir while Nelhybel was coaching the choir.
JS: My goodness.
JANET: Very scary.
JS: That was huge.
JANET: Very scary indeed.
JS: That was huge. That's great.
JANET: It was huge to me. Yeah, I managed to successfully pull it off. He was kind
of an intense man.
JS: I'll bet so. I'll bet so.
JANET: With intense music.
JS: What was your favorite music education course in college and why was it your
favorite?
JANET: I only had one.
JS: Okay. (Laugher) Well then, I was going to ask what your least favorite one was
and why. But I guess they will be one and the same. So what did you like most about
that class and what did you like least about it?
JANET: I liked the teacher enormously because she really was the embodiment of an
open personality, who understood that lots of people who were taking the class were
never going to teach elementary music, but she wanted to make it accessible to
everyone. There are lots of names that you don't remember but I remember her name
because I just thought she was an awesome human being.
JS: What was her name?
JANET: [Teacher name]. And [teacher name] worked with so many people who were
not musicians. And yet, she could approach it in such a way that people could find an
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entry point. And I think that has a lot to do with Orff Schulwerk, actually. And I had
no exposure to Orff Schulwerk whatsoever, and I would never in any of my
undergraduate or Master's training. It just was not yet present in the university
system.
JS: So what kinds of things did you do with [teacher name]?
JANET: Well, I have a remembrance of having resonator bells and I remember that
because the theory professor hated resonator bells and if the people who were taking
elementary methods had left the resonator bells out, when he walked in at eight
o'clock in the morning he would open the window on the second floor and throw the
resonator bells out the window.
JS: (Laughter) Oh, my gosh! I wonder what [teacher name] thought about that.
JANET: Oh, I don't know. (Laughter) It was very interesting because later I was a
graduate assistant to him and grew to love his quirky nature. But he did feel rather
strongly about not having to deal with those baby music things.
JS: Whoa. That's so funny.
JANET: I think one thing I loved about the -- I loved the cross curricular things that
we did in [teachers] class because she was thinking beyond just teaching people the
right notes. She was teaching them how to think through the eyes of a child.
JS: Okay. So you got out of college. Did you start teaching for a while?
JANET: I stayed and did a Master's degree.
JS: You did your master's immediately? Okay.
JANET: Immediately.
JS: In music ed?
JANET: It was music ed., but it was with a panel and so I did a recital when I got my
undergraduate degree and another recital for my graduate degree in piano. So then, it
was the sort of thing to do that you loaded all of your belongings into your car and
you went wherever you thought your dream was going to be. And so we move to the
west without having a job for either of us.
JS: You just decided that's where you were going to go.
125
JANET: Our 67 Mustang and all of our significant things, which all fit in-- either the
context of the 67 Mustang or on top and we drove to the West because that was
where my husband wanted to live and we were pretty close and fancy free for about
three weeks and we both decided it would be really nice to know where you were
going to hang your hat. And so I had interviewed for jobs in [state] and other places
and we really thought we would live [state] initially. But I got a job in [state] and
stayed there for six years.
JS: And so was that an elementary job?
JANET: It was an elementary job and I had no concept of myself as an elementary

teacher because I had always thought of myself as a high school choir teacher. And
all of my teachers thought of me as a high school choir teacher. And yet, I needed a
job desperately and I was so grateful that the job that was available to me was an
elementary music job. I have thought for lots of those years that I was trying to invent
Orff Schulwerk because the way the music was being taught was so abysmal. And I
was trying to invite the ability in my students to not just be able to sing a song, but to
make music and so many people at that point in time--this was 1973, it was my first
year teachingreally did not see that there was a need to teach anything other than a
melody that kids could sing back. To me, there was no teaching music, there was just
song material. And you could kind of sort of do it and then the teacher would plug in
a listening lesson, people thought that was good enough. And, you know, I just didn't
think it was good enough.
JS: So what made you decide to take Orff Schulwerk levels courses? How did you
hear about it? What made you decide to do it and what was the thing that attracted
you most to Orff Schulwerk? Even though youve kind of addressed that a little bit.
JS: I moved to [city] and I was not teaching because I had arrived too late in the
school year to get a job, and I did stop for awhile, but I also taught piano during that
year. And then, at a meeting of piano teachers that I belonged to, there was a group of
children who came as a demo group and [name] was the instructor. And as soon as
they started improvising I knew exactly what I wanted to do. And then we move back
across the country to Illinois and at that point in time, immediately, I had the
opportunity to take a three-day immersion class with [teacher name] at that time.
Which just really --
JS: So you'd already had Level 1.
JANET: No.
JS: No. You hadn't, okay.
JANET: No.
126
JS: You had to go back to [city]?
JANET: No. Level I was in [state].
JS: Oh, okay. All right.
JANET: I've crossed the country a couple of times.
JS: Okay.
JANET: And so then the next summer I did Level 1 at [university name]. Most of my
decisions at that point in time were pretty ill-informed. I went there because it was
available. It was the place I could drag to.
JS: Sure.
JANET: It was luck, I think, that I stumbled into a group of people who really did
know what they were doing. And it was not ideal teaching conditions for them. The
classes were meeting in an auditorium; it was easy to be invisible. But certainly I got
enough of a taste of Orff Schulwerk to know that it really was the place that my heart
resonated. And as the years went by, we eventually moved back to the west, and at
that point in time I thought I should go local as they say. So I went to Seattle Pacific
University and by that time I knew quite a bit about what you should get and I was
not as happy with the course as I could have been. So when I did Level III, I went to
[university name] to do Level III, and felt like I was back on track.
JS: Okay.
JANET: The teachers I had in Level III and Level I spoke the same language of Orff
Schulwerk.
JS: Okay. What kinds of things were your levels teachers particularly good at
teaching? And you can jump around from place to place if you want. And then, if
they had weaknesses, talk about those too. What were the weaknesses? And by the
way, no names will be used in the actual transcriptions. It will be anonymous,
completely. So your name will be anonymous and so will [teacher name] who you
just mentioned.
JANET: But I can use names though?
JS: Yes.
127
JANET: [Teacher name] is a magician and is able to pull you into learning, in
amazing ways. She teaches singing beautifully, and I think one thing I loved about
being in Level I was that [she] always started with a canon every day. You know,
even if it didn't fit the scope and sequence and the particular thing that you were
working on that day -- and I'm not sure at that point in time that was extremely well-
thought-out, it may have been, but it was not obvious to me as a student. We always
started with singing. And when I did Level I that particular team of teachers also had
a focus on singing. So [another teacher] did an hour a day of vocal technique and Orff
Schulwerk application of vocal techniques. But very much focused on good singing.
So I learned a lot. I'd rather not say too much about level II. It was not I guess if I'm
anonymous it's okay.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: It was very weak. And it was hard because I had done a lot of homework
because it had been many years since I've done another one, and I wanted to be sure I
wasn't behind. So I really had kind of given myself the equivalent of a Level II
through self study before I went to take Level II. And so it was very obvious to me
that there were a lot of weaknesses in the program. It was a difficult year.
JS: So when you did the self study how did you know what to study?
JANET: I have notes.
JS: You had notes from somebody else's Level II?
JANET: Yes. Which I don't think is a bad thing.
JS: No. I don't either.
JANET: And that kind of tells you what the content should be. And that was one of
the things that, when the content wasn't there I was very aware of that. I had already
taught myself alto recorder because I thought that's what you should do.
JS: Yes. Well dont we wish everybody did that?
JANET: It really put me in a place that because I was a good soprano recorder player
and I had not been introduced to it until Level I but it was like discovering a friend.
And so I played all the time. I played for hours and hours and hours in Level I just
because I loved to play so much. And so when I went to do Level II, I was too
advanced for the technique class. And it was a fairly small group of people and so
basically I was just turned loose on my own to go practice.
JS: Wow. What did they do?

128
JANET: Well they did really simple things. And, I mean, I'm grateful because Iat
the one time I would have gone crazy doing elementary stuff, and I think the record
or teachers in this country ask far too little in many courses. But at the same time it
kind of felt like I was almost punished for being good at what I did.
JS: That's too bad.
JANET: Yeah.
JS: Because that happened to me in Level I, Janet. You know, I was studying with
Avon Gillespie and Rick Layton. And when Avon, who was our recorder teacher, saw
that I was going to move ahead because I did the same thing, I went home, like on
day two
JANET: You did your homework
JS: And practiced like crazy and already could play anything on soprano because I
loved it so much. On day three he put me in withwe had that year, a Level I and
Level III class. He put me in Level III...
JANET: Oh my gosh.
JS: The lunch worked out so that I could go to lunch with Level III and go to their
recorder class. So he had me there. And I remember learning alto, and I got to play
sopranino. I mean, you know, that's what we need to think towards is what's a
creative waylike we do with ensembles and so forthto keep everybody motivated
and working at their own level. So, you were relegated to the practice room.
(Laugher)
JANET: But I was also...
JS: But you were wonderful I'm sure.
JANET: I was learning a lot about[teacher name] was the movement teacher. I was
learning a lot about that because it was a totally different strand of movement. Level I
movement was more folk dancing, creative expression and the Laban techniques were
completely foreign to me.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: And I had not prepped for that. So kind of like I had to really just keep my --
JS: More of a challenge.

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JANET: Just keeping my head above water to know what the efforts were and to
understand the language that they were speaking because I was in Level II, and all the
foundation for that had been established in Level I. So that was my area of greatest
concern. I felt cheated because we did nothing from the volumes, and
JS: Learning that great music.
JANET: Yeah. I was expecting modes. We didn't do anything that had to do with
modes. And so I was less than a contented camper in Level II. And I took the advice
of my good friend [name], who said all along I should go to [university name].
JS: And that's when you did your Level III. That's good.
JANET: I went the very next year.
JS: That's neat. So given all these experiences that you had, to what extent do you
think you emulate your own levels teachers?
JANET: Some of them, a great deal. I think I learned tremendously from various
people. I learned process teaching from [teacher name], especially when I went back
to scribe the class. Before the formal apprenticeship was in place, that was how most
people learned their stuff, was to scribe a really good teacher. And you know, I
learned about elemental music from [teacher name], I learned to try to create magic
spaces from [teacher name]. So I learned tremendously from all of them. I was also
affected -- I was doing a lot of Phyllis Weikart training at the same time -- and in fact
reached a point where I had to choose if I was going to become a Phyllis Weikart
trainer or I was going to move forward in Orff Schulwerk.
JS: Interesting.
JANET: And so I was doing a lot of it at the same time. And so there's a lot of her
thinking and my approach to beat.
JS: It's a good process.
JANET: So I was greatly influenced and I just think I've been enormously lucky to be
exposed to great teachers.
JS: What kinds of singing were experiences and do you remember from the Orff
Schulwerk teacher education courses you attended? I knew you said that [teacher
name] always started with a canon. So what else in addition to that?
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JANET: Level II, we did very little singing other than in the context of folk song
arrangements. In Level III, it was kind of a return to the structure that I'd had in Level
I, except I had [teacher name] for a vocal specialist. And at that point in time, in the
[university name] course, there was an hour a day in Level III dedicated to
conducting and vocal techniques. And true confessions, when I conducted for
[teacher name], it was probably the scariest thing I've ever in all my levels training.
JS: Wow.
JANET: But I just think the model of using good vocal technique whenever you're
teaching children is the single most important thing that any of us can do. To model
sound beautifully. Like when you're modeling the soprano recorder. Or any recorder
sound. The words you say about it are of so little importance; really that what they're
copying is the sound of your own singing voice, the sound of your own recorder.
JS: So were those vocal technique classes taught by [teacher name]?
JANET: We had an hour and day with [teacher name], but I was also singing in the
context of Level III with [teacher name] and [teacher name], who were good
taskmasters. They did not accept sloppy vocal models or out of tune singing. And we
knew that we were expected to sing beautifully and in tune.
JS: Okay. Do you remember, during your levels courses, do you remember preferring
some activities over others? And if so, which ones did you prefer?
JANET: Playing the recorder. (Laughter)
JS: Fine.
JANET: Actually, I loved almost everything.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: I loved improvising. And you know, I'm happy to say that I think there's
more improvisation now being included in Orff training then there was 20 years ago.
And I think that's a good thing because I think without the ability to improvise we
have handicapped people. And to teach other people to improvise you have to be
overly confident and comfortable doing it yourself. So I did a lot of improvisation in
the context of Level III recorder. Now I remember how that -- why I was going --
who was my recorder teacher? [Teacher name] taught technique in ensemble every
other day and then improvisation was with [teacher name] for recorder.
JS: For recorder?

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JANET: And that was a good way to know you were separating those two kinds of
learnings. But I loved everything. I loved folk dancing. I loved learning with [teacher
name]. I have fine, fine examples of teaching, especially in Level III.
JS: Okay. Well let's talk about your experiences with teaching music to children,
since you've had your Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses. When you teach
children, what are your favorite activities to teach? And, you know, we'll say up front
that you are a middle school choir director, really. But I know it's not really a
conventional middle school choral experience. Because you use Orff instruments.
JANET: I do.
JS: And hand drums and speech pieces, I'm sure. So when you teach children what
are your favorite activities to teach? And why?
JANET: I love teaching vocal music and having it emerge from a kind of wide
pallette of activities, and so in that way it's more convergent, in terms of, if I were
teaching something that was in 5/4, like (singing) Under the Full Moonlight, I
might have started it from a body percussion piece that became the rhythm of the
piece, that becomes an improvisation using 5/4 meter, and from that, the learning is
much deeper than if you just feed them the song. So I love teaching so that there is a
large...
JS: Scaffolding.
JANET: Yeah. There's a scaffold, it's like having a tapestry and you weave lines in to
make the picture as beautiful as possible. And I think with middle schoolers have a
high degree of not being tolerant and so if you're not a good teacher, you know it
right away, because they'll let you know.
JS: They surely they will. Yep.
JANET: And they're really not tolerant of repetition, but yet they're not skilled
enough to learn something quickly.
JS: Exactly.
JANET: And so you have to find different ways to attack the problem, so that they
can actually get it and what they think of as a timely manner.
JS: That's very well put. It's so true of middle schoolers. And starting with fifth and
sixth graders really, they're like that, they don't want to repeat. So you have to be
really creative and thinking of ways to get to the finished product.
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JANET: Sixth grade is more playful because they actually have a window up to about
March where they will allow you to engage with them in a more playful way, and so,
we do lots of things that are actually more game oriented. And then, by the time
they're in seventh grade they believe themselves to be so sophisticated that you have
to cover the same territory but not in such a playful way. They don't trust themselves
to play.
JS: Okay. What are your least favorite activities to teach to children? And why?
JANET: The only thing I don't like teaching to children is when someone else has
chosen literature, and I consider it either too difficult for the group of children that
I'm teaching, too easy for the group of children Im teaching, or that it doesn't fit the
voice ranges, and so I have to compromise what I think they should be doing. Or the
literature is not worthy of their focus.
JS: So sometimes the literature is imposed on you from outside?
JANET: Yes. Only in terms of festivals that we might attend. And you know, when
you're with colleagues you compromise sometimes, about what they think is right for
kids and what you think is right for kids.
JS: Okay. Describe the different ways in which you incorporate singing in your
teaching of children.
JANET: Wow...
JS: Well, I mean youve talked a little bit about this, because you talked about how
when you're teaching a piece, sometimes it you get to it by body percussion or
starting with movement to get into a piece in 5/4 or something like that. Are there
ways in which you use singing as a different outcome?
JANET: Absolutely. Sometimes you can walk into my room and it would look like
I'm conventional choir teacher because I might be trying to help them get better at
score reading or I might be pointing out elemental form in a piece because we do a lot
of work with elemental forms so that when they're learning choral music I can say,
Look this is just like the phrase that we learned first in the piece. Does it have the
same words? Is it the same music with new words? Or is it new music and new
words? Which is, I think, just ever so deliciousto get them to think about what
they're doing and not just replicate what somebody has sung to them. And it's
perfectly okay to teach aurally, and I still fight with people who use the R-O-T-E
word as if it's dirty.
JS: Yeah, I think we're coming around on that.

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JANET: I think so too. If 90% of the world learns music aurally, there must be
something that's okay about that.
JS: I've even heard Kodly teachers recently talk about how the rote tradition is so
important.
JANET: I often might teachif I think something is a little too hard for the kidsI
might find a way to reduce their vocal content of the line to something that they can
play on the barred instruments, and then go back and give it a more complex version
to them, as they begin to sing vocally. But the fact that they've learned it through
something that has a kinesthetic response to it and visual, for some reason it helps
them to be able to grasp things that are actually a little too difficult for them to learn
by the usual things.
JS: It's really interesting that you said that because so far in my interviews I've heard
a lot of people talk about getting to the instruments via the voice. But you're the first
one I've heard say getting to the voice via the instruments. And I love that. It works
both ways. Definitely, works both ways.
JANET: And middle school also, theyre so often, your teaching boys in a range of
that's ever so slightly not their own. And we have to be able to move things up and
down pitch-wise, to be able to teach in middle school. People who don't have that
skill are very handicapped. But it also, when I teach them on the instruments for
instance, if it was in the key of D, I might lower it to the key of C, just so that I can
take the easy way out and not have to find the sharps and flats. But it also sets up the
ear to be able to move around and into different keys and to be more flexible that
way.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: Because they've learned it. And it also gives you a point of saying Is this
the same thing? No, it doesn't sound quite the same. Is it higher? Is it lower?
Because I really think the question is critical to kids thinking in higher levels of
music. And when we never ask them questions, why would they learn how to think in
music? You have to ask them questions because you have to ask them to think about
what it feels like when they're singing.
JS: Good. That's great. On what factors do you base your decision on how you will
incorporate something? Honestly, you've already answered it.
JANET: Well, number one...
JS: Some of it.

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JANET: Its the part of my job on the evaluated on.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: And so I do have to, when my students stand up to perform, my public and
my administrator are judging me on whether or not they sing well.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: And I believe that they can sing well and be good musicians through lots of
other mediums, even if that's not always visible on the program.
JS: Okay. That's fine. I think --
JANET: I can tell you again if it...
JS: I don't-- I mean-- I don't really understand it even completely. On what factors do
you base your decision on how you will incorporate singing?
JANET: I think for me, it's a little different than for an elementary teacher. Because
there is always the performance thats somewhere down the road.
JS: That's a good point.
JANET: And while I may not be teaching to the music, i.e. we're not just learning the
songs and beating them to death, there is the responsibility down the road that these
children can stand up and be totally secure in their knowledge of their performance.
JS: Good. What are some examples of the music the children sing in your class?
JANET: Oh, it changes a lot. In sixth grade we might be doing partner songs. Or
simple canons, canons are not easy although I know people tend to believe that they
are.
JS: Yeah. Hard to sing well.
JANET: And then, I want to get them to the point that they're singing two-part songs
before they leave sixth grade that are just a little bit above what I call the You sing, I
sing model. You sing a bit and hold the note and then I'll sing something below that,
and we'll trade off. The choice of literature is absolutely critical, because middle
schoolers do not start a three-part chord. And anybody who publishes materials like
that has never tried to teach a middle schooler. And so, I'm always looking for
literature that starts on a common pitch, and the lines descend or ascend to get to
something that feels like harmony.
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As the kids move into seventh-grade they need a whole different package because the
needs of the voices are so different, they need to be in part one and part two just for
the kids to be successful because the boy's voices are in two distinct places. The girls
voices need to be moving higher, they need to be gaining confidence that they can
sing a long line. And so, by that point in time, canons don't always work because
canons have a very specific voice range. Or if you're using a canon you're moving up
and down to different pitch levels to try to figure out where they can sing.
And by eighth grade when things are working the way they're supposed to be
working, I want them to be able -- I would, if given my choice of the music to do it,
and it's pretty rare, actually four-part music is better for them than three-part music.
But it has to be very carefully constructed four-part music that has a lot of
independence in the lines.
JS: Okay.
JANET: Was that more than you wanted to know?
JS: No, that was great.
JANET: I could write a textbook about any one of these things. (Laughs)
JS: Sounds like it. Sounds like it. Cecilia Wang has written several articles, as you
know, and one of her more recent articles talks about the fact-- the teachers were
asked to estimate the percentage of time that they spent on certain activities. In two
articles, actually, that she's done... And the teachers would say well we spend 50% of
our time on singing, we spend 50% of our time on playing instruments, we spend
50% of our time on movement and you know, all those kind of things and the
conclusion she came to was that Orff-Schulwerk teachers really do do that. It's
because they're doing so many different things simultaneously.
So the question is, we'll let me just read it. Some of the research I've read suggests
that there are times when Orff Schulwerk students just sing and other times when they
sing in combination with other mediums. Is that the case in your teaching? And if so,
what are some examples of how the singing is taught by itself? We already addressed
some of those. And what are some examples of how singing is taught in combination
with other media?
JANET: I tell people usually that sixth graders are about 50/50. 50% of the time, I'm
giving them the foundation for good singing and teaching them about vowels and
teaching them about breathing, but in a playful way. And about 50% of the time,
we're playing instruments to build their musicianship. Because they really don't come
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in beat competent, they really don't come in able to play a barred instrument. And to
say how much I would give to any particular area would not be accurate.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: And it's because I do what they need me to do. If what they need is be able
to do 16th notes more accurately, I might be doing it on drums, or I might be doing it
on barred instruments, but I probably am not doing it singing; even though, we might
turn around and read a melody that has 16th notes in it.
JS: Right. So that would be the goalto get to the singing.
JANET: Yeah. And seventh grade is about 60/40. 60% of the time I'm teaching
singing. 40% of the time--I'm teaching musicianship through singing too, but when I
use instruments I'm thinking of building their musicianship always, because they have
to go into traditional choir programs in the schools. So my time is running out by the
time they get to be seventh and eighth graders. They only have a couple of years left
to either become engaged as musicians, or they're finished, when they eighth grade.
I'm also, by seventh grade there's a strong focus on their own solo voice, even if it's in
a very simple format they have to take responsibility for that. What's your vocal
range? I'll help you find things. I will bleed to get you to the point that you can sing
on pitch. But you have to be willing to sing a short solo. You have to be willing to let
me help you learn about your singing voice because otherwise, I can't teach you
without knowing what you're doing.
JS: Right.
JANET: In eighth grade, were doing something new, which is, were putting a
greater focus on being in a small ensemble. So that becomes a different kind of
responsibility then when you're in seventh grade and expected to sing a short solo. In
eighth grade it's the responsibility to the group and holding your part.
JS: Right.
JANET: And knowing how to be responsible to an ensemble. It's my job for them to
know who's capable of being in a two-part ensembleone person on each partor
who needs to be in an octet singing two- part music. And that's my job. So by eighth
grade kids are spending 80% of their time on vocal music, and 20% of their time on
divergent kinds of learning. Because that's the end for kids who are not going on to
high school music. So it's kind of like they must either be engaged and hooked on
choral singing, or its not going to happen.
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JS: Okay. What activities do the children seemed to enjoy the most when they're
taught through the Orff approach, in your classes? And what activities do they enjoy
the least in your classes?
JANET: Least is easy. They don't, middle schoolers absolutely hate being taught how
to sight-read. They would not mind working with rhythm, they love reading rhythm,
but I think sometimes, honestly, it's too much when we put a pieces of choral music
in their hands and expect that they're going to be able to be able to sort this out.
They're not as functional as people believe they are.
Most of my students love anything that has to do rhythm and expanding out, creating
their own material.
JS: They like to create?
JANET: Oh, they love to create. They actuallyI mean, if you can sequence it
correctly they can move from writing rhythmic pieces in the elemental form and
expand it to pitched pieces using either a pentatonic scale or a pentachordal melody.
And once they have a melody that they've constructed that's playableand we're
talking about Orff instruments now, barred instrumentsI really think it's fun to be
all to say, Why don't you try adding a second part? Why don't you see if you can
add a simple accompaniment part. And at that point in time they really own their
own music.
JS: And that's a big deal with middle schoolers.
JANET: Absolutely.
JS: To feel like they have some control.
JANET: Yeah.
JS: Okay. Do the children in your classes, in the classes you teach like to sing?
JANET: Most of them like to sing.
JS: And of course, they've chosen choir right? Or they're required?
JANET: They're required to be in music. So honestly, by the time children are in

sixth grade, if they haven't chosen to be in band or orchestra, they are going to be
placed in choir by default. And so I have one year to convince them.
JS: You get the leftovers.

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JANET: I get the leftovers, but I also get kids who are choosing to sing in spite of the
fact that they also like to play.
JS: Yeah.
JANET: And next year I'll have one girl who had to give up playing the string bass
and playing a band instrument to be able to be in choir, but she loved singing so much
that those were choices that she made with her parents to study privately on the
stringed instrument so she could participate in choir.
JS: Wow. Are the students good at singing? And if so why do you think that's so?
Maybe it's different for the sixth graders that come to you versus the eighth graders
stay in.
JANET: I think it makes a great deal of difference, the attitude of their elementary
music teacher. Because if before grade 5, they have never taught to respect their own
singing voice, it's much harder to convince them that singing is a wonderful way to
express yourself. And middle school is a dangerous place for boys, in terms of being
a vocalist, because it's not an easy thing, in our culture, for boys to sing. And so, the
elementary music teacher who precedes me, really sets of that whole mindset of
whether or not it's good and cool to be in choir.
Then, you know, I've got three years to do the best job I possibly can and some kids
do end up loving choir. Some kids hang out in choir for all three years, even though
they could go to general music in seventh and eighth grade. They don't because they
know it's a friendly place to be and we do lots of varied activities and it's their
community. And so, not all of them are going to be in high school music, even if they
choose to sing through eighth grade. It's just the facts of life.
JS: So you did talk about maybe their attitude more, when they come to you. But
overall, are they pretty good at singing, or again, it varies with the teaching?
JANET: It varies. I think most kids have the potential to sing well. I think most
human beings have the potential to sing well. There are a few, in 37 years, I've
probably only bumped into a handful, a dozen, kids who really could not be taught to
hear pitch, and those few I just felt like there was a brain wiring problem. I couldn't
figure out how to get them to hear accurately.
JS: Let's talk about your experiences with teaching Orff Schulwerk work to adults. A
few questions. How do you incorporateand you mostly teach recorder, but I know
you've taught Level I as wellhow do you incorporate singing into the teaching of
adults in your levels teaching?
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JANET: Well I think that when we're all doing our job the best we can, my job looks
a little bit like basic. A little bit like movement. And by the same token, their class
would look a little bit like mine. But what I want people to see is that recorder is not
an instrument that exists in the box, and you pull the box down and you teach your
kids recorder. When recorder is being taught well, you're also teaching movement,
you're also teaching barred instruments, and youre teaching singing.
JS: So how do you incorporate singing? Do you use rounds? I've seen your teaching
so I'm going to shut up because I know some of the things you do. You tell me.
JANET: Well, very often you use an activity that might begin from an existing simple
melody that students would sing, and the recorder would become an ostinato. The
recorder might be a countermelody the recorder, if I'm using tenor and bass or alto
and tenor, we might be creating a bordun with a vocal song. I really think singing is
central to the Orff Schulwerk process, and I don't think we should lose track of that.
Like the recorder, the voice is there. The recorder is probably the least expensive
instrument we have, other than...
JS: And easiest to carry.
JANET: And easiest to carry. But the voice is there for every child and it's part of
every culture and so, when I'm teaching recorder I'm often using similes that have to
do with singing. Playing the recorder beautifully is like singing beautifully, when it
comes to tension in the throat or tension in the upper body A recorder is an
extension of the singing voice. And so, if you sing beautifully, you have everything
you need to play the recorder well. You just have to get the fingers organized.
JS: What are some examples of the music that adults in your levels classes sing? You
already answered some of this. In fact, you may have already answered all of that. Do
you want to add to that a little bit?
JANET: In pedagogy lessons especially, we might be doing melodies that I composed

myself that will have a recorder element to it or it might be a folk song that I believe
is appropriate to the grade level. It might be almost anything. It might be a canon.
And you know, we might sing something that's actually written for the recorder and
give it words. And later go back and learn it as a recorder piece.
JS: Okay great. When you're teaching adults in levels courses, what are your
expectations for the kinds of musical and knowledge and skills (A beings to laugh.)
these music educators should already have when they begin class?
JANET: This is a tricky one because what they should have and what they actually
have is two different things.
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JS: What are your expectations? Because that's probably more realistic. It's an in
between.
JANET: I think people who do not already read music are so handicapped, I mean, to
an Orff level. I don't think you can teach someonethis is from my angle as a
recorder teacher, but it could be in basic as wellit's very hard to teach someone
basic musicianship that has to do with reading music at the same time you're trying to
teach them Orff Schulwerk techniques and applications. So I really think people need
to be functioning musicians before they come to take Level I.
JS: And that means they can read music? What else does that mean?
JANET: They can match pitch. Whether or not they sing with a beautiful tone might
be less important because if they're coming from an instrumental background,
honestly, some of them have never been taught how to sing well. But most of them
can learn how to sing. Especially if somebody takes their time to say, Let's try that in
a try not to force a sound or try not to sound like a foghorn. Oh, no. (They laugh.)
Try not to let your voice be too loud because if you sing too loud, you can't hear what
it sounds like in relation to other people.
JS: So reading music, matching pitch, what else do you hope theyll bring, as far as
musically...
JANET: Playful attitude, a desire to learn, because honestly, youd think it couldnt
be that way because people pay a lot of money to take these classes. But very often
you'll have one or two people in the class who don't really know why theyre there.
They're there because an administrator told them to be there or theyre there because
they're finishing a degree and they have to have this one class, but they don't value it
very highly. They're just putting in their time. So I'd like everybody to be there
because they love to learn. By Level II and Level III... I just think my Level II and
Level III people should assume responsibility for their own learning. And if they
havent been good at what they did in Level I, they should fix it before they come
back. And not just go, Oh, well it's not my thing. That could be movement or it
could be barred instruments or singing or recorder or it could be any of those things.
We're adults by the time we come back to take Orff levels. We should own our own
stuff.
JS: So, along the same line, you've been teaching adults for quite a while now, for 20
years, do you think that music educators knowledge and skills have changed over the
time you've been teaching? Do you think they gotten better or do you think they've
gotten worse?
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JANET: Yes. I think that most people have a much better working knowledge of what
I think of as the general philosophies of music educationOrff, Kodly and
Dalcroze. They at least know what those words mean. They have functional
knowledge usually of the simplest as applications of the Kodly syllables. They have,
somewhere along the way, been exposed to the importance of having some kind of
mnemonicsis that the word? (JS: Uh huh. Thats it.) for teaching rhythm. And that
way I think it's easier than it used to be because you don't have to define every single
thing. Sometimes people are not very practice added that. For instance, if I want to
use solfge to teach something and recorder, I don't really need to overkill because
they been exposed to it.
I think sometimes, the things that they do less well is I think that we're losing our
singing culture in this country in a lot of ways. I think I am not sure if it's gotten any
better. I think in the United States we don't use speech very expressively, and if I had
my way we would be much more expressive. We have much more capacity to use the
speaking voice expressively, which has a direct correlation to using the singing voice
expressively.
JS: That's really interesting because, you know when you listen towhen our main
mode of performed speech these days is rap. When you listen to rappers a lot of times
they keep it very monotone, how they sound. That may influence the way our kids
speak. There's a whole other study in this. Something somebody could look at. There
was something else that you said that I wanted to pick up on, it's gone. [whistle]
Bummer. Yeah, maybe it will come back.
Based on your experiences as an Orff teacher educator, what do you think are the
primary reasons that music educators enroll in an Orff course? Why do they come?
JANET: I think initially they come because they want lesson plans wrapped in with
wanting to know more. I think it's really when somebody signs up for Level I, lots of
times they really have no clue what they're starting, that they're starting life-changing
work.
JS: No.
JANET: I think they believe it's going to be simple and elementary music. What
could be hard about that? I don't think they have a clue about needing to master so
many different mediums to be able to do it well. Will you restate the question?
JS: Well, it was just why they come to the course, to take the courses.
JANET: I think most of them do not come to Level I prepared to have a life-changing
experience. And I think we have to assume that they don't come for that. We provide
that, we hope, which brings them back. I don't think anybody comes back to Level II
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to get more lesson plans. I think they come back because they know that they have
stepped into something that takes them to a new place. I think therere a lot of people
who should not go on to Level II. We would like to have more.
JS: I agree with you about that though.
JANET: And you know...
JS: I don't think it's for everybody.
JANET: It's not for everybody, and frankly I think there are teachers who, whatever
they picked up in Level I, is very satisfactory to them.
JS: They got their lessons plans.
JANET: They got their lesson plans.
JS: And that'll hold them for another few years. Typically in your teaching, what are
the adults favorite activities? What do they like to do the most?
JANET: They love to play games. Isn't that just great because that's what humanity
loves to do. We love to be engaged in playful learning. We also love to be moved to
an emotional response to music. And I think that's one of the things that's most
missing in classes that people have taken up to the point that they start studying Orff
training. It's like somehow it's distrusted in university level music, that you should
have an emotional response to music. It's like it should be intellectual, and when
people come and they're so hungry to have someone help them reconnect the fact that
we make music to be joyful we make music to express sorrow we make music for
very human needs, and yet, lots of times people have become disconnected from that
or disenchanted with the whole act of making music. And so it's become trivialized in
their minds. I think it's enormously important to help people connect to why we make
music as human beings.
JS: My mother always said that she thought because we used the verb to play in
music making that in some way, just on the surface, that gives the impression that it's
not difficult and that it's not that important. I think that goes back to what you're
saying, that it's been somehow trivialized. She probably would have loved David
Elliott's idea about calling it musicing. It gives it a little bit more sophistication.
JANET: I was talking to [university professor] last night about helping people
reconnect to music through watching the kids dance. And how important it is. We've
lost that and we substituted competitive sports for moving, being out expressing
ourselves. But it's nowhere the same. And we suffer as a culture in the United States
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because we don't have a national sense of dance or movement. To us people watch a

football game and think that somehow they're involved because they watched it.
JS: Have you ever met with resistance from the adult students to any of the activities
in the levels courses and which activities do you believe they resist the most.
JANET: I think that there are people who really don't believe that they should have to
learn to play the recorder. They don't ever intend to teach at the recorder. I would love
to have $10 for everybody who said, Well I only teach up to grade 3, so I don't really
need to work with this.
I think the job of the recorder teacher is a little bit harder to help people understand
that it's a skill-based part of our Orff Schulwerk training. It depends on skill to be able
to use it and I just think if people who teach younger children could understand that
you could save your own singing voice by using the alto recorder, that if they have a
mental block toward learning the recorder at all, that's your first thing. You have to
help them fall in love with the instrument.
JS: That concludes my questions, Janet. Do you have anything you want to add to this
conversation?
JANET: I just think that it's an amazing thing that you're doing this stuff.
JS: Thank you.
JANET: I don't know, I just think that, to not lose track of singing as we move more
towards elemental music is really important because we could become something that
people say. Oh those of those people who are just bang on instruments, and it
would be such a tragedy if that perception were all allowed to continue. Or if that was
the only thing that Orff Schulwerk meant in the United States is you get those
instruments out and bang on them. It's our job to make sure that doesn't happen.
JS: Thank you very, very much.
JANET: You're welcome.

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Appendix B
Transcript of Interview with Joanna
JS: Okay, so today is what? June 17, 2009, and Im talking to Joanna. And were
just gonna talk a little about singing, and not necessarily related to Orff Schulwerk,
just singing in general. So what are you earliest memories of singing?
JOANNA: My earliest memory of singing is my mom got out a tape recorder and she
said I want you to sing your goodnight song, and it was like a prayer in this
machine. And I said Why am I doing that? because I had never seen a tape
recorder before. And she wanted to record me singing. And I remember her bedroom,
so I must have beenwe moved to that house when I was in second grade, so I must
have about then.
JS: What was your good night song?
JOANNA: I dont remember.
JS: You dont remember.
JOANNA: I dont remember it.
JS: Okay. Did she--
JOANNA: Something that was a prayer or something that was religious.
JS: And where did you learn it?
JOANNA: From her.
JS: From her, so she taught it to you. Do you have other memories of your mother
singing to you? Or your father?
JOANNA: No.
JS: Okay, how about in school? Like in grade school and all the way to high school?
What were you experiences?
JOANNA: II was pretty much about my highmiddle school choral teacher. She
had long black hair and she looked like the witch from (?). And she just alwaysI
likeI just couldnt wait for her classes, she always made me feel like I had a great
voice. But I was really like singing in class and then I was invited then after school
special thing called Originals. And its all that.
145
JS: Cool, whatDid you have music in school? In elementary school?
JOANNA: Yeah, but I dont remember much about it.
JS: No Erie Canal and stuff?
JOANNA: Mm hm. But I remember middle school. Singing in middle school classes
and being in this after school singing special group.
JS: What about high school?
JOANNA: High school, from what I remember is that I hadMy high school choir
director came to me when I was a freshmen and said You cant be a cheerleader and
sing, because in middle school I was a cheerleader. And he heard me singing and he
knew I was trying out for the cheer leading team, and he said You have to choose
when I was a freshman. So I gave up cheerleading, stayed with the choir, and I
always got to sing in all the top traveling groups. We sang for conferences. I have a
really clear memory of being in the madrigal group list was posted with juniors and
seniors and very few freshmen. And I remember that I made it as a sophomore, and
my mom came to school to see that I had made it.
JS: Well, that was special.
JOANNA: Yeah, so I made it as a sophomore, so that was a big deal.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: So, we did madrigal singing and formalized singing.
JS: So, really you did Renaissance singing? Did you do pop singing as well?
JOANNA: No, the madrigal group did Renaissance singing, but I was also in a Pop
I was in two special groups besides the big choir. One was like a poppy show choir,
small group and then the other one was the madrigal group, and I was in all the
musicals.
JS: Okay, what musicals?
JOANNA: Freshman year Hello Dolly, and I was the cute little niece, whose name
I cant remember.
(They laugh.)
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JS: Okay
JOANNA: Sophomore year, I have no memory.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: Junior year, Guys and Dolls, Adelaide.
JS: Alright, of course, yes of course.
JOANNA: And senior year, I was Nellie Forbush and sang, Im Gonna Wash that
Man Right Outa My Hair.
(They laugh.)
JS: Thats great! I never knew that! Alright. Lets talk about college for a minute. A
lot of people have two different kinds of at least two different kinds of experiences
in college. Maybe theyre in college choir and then also I want to hear about general
methods classes. Like your elementary methods classes. What kind of singing did you
do there? So, and maybe you had voice lessons. Just tell about all your singing
experiences.
JOANNA: I did. I hadI had private voice lessons twice a week with one person in
my freshman year, and I switched into a different studio in my sophomore, junior and
senior year. I had a man, and I think he was kinda like the lowest guy because I
wasnt the strongest, most brilliant. I was a Music Ed major and the music
performance majors got all the top people. So I had kind of I think a not so great guy
my first year. I got the woman, [teacher name], by just asking. So I had a really great
voice teacher for my sophomore, junior and senior year. Had lots of memories, good
memories of working with her and feeling likeI didnt have a great voice,
compared to some of the people, who were voice majors. So I got to experience being
the big fish and being a not such a great fish in a huge pond of people who were
really talented. But I made a lot of progress and I had a senior recital and we sang in
four languages.
JS: What music did you sing? Was there a variety? I mean what is it exactly that
JOANNA: I mean I sang some German. I know I sang some things in German. I
know I sang some things in French. I sang something very contemporary.
JS: But not pop?
JOANNA: No.
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JS: Not songs from musicals.
JOANNA: No.
JS: Cause some people did that.
JOANNA: I wasntI dont think that was ever a choice.
JS: Just art songs and arias.
JOANNA: Yes.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: And well chosen, because I wasnt as strong. They were good and I
remember feeling great about it. Now what else did you ask? Music education
classes, do I remember singing in music education classes? Yes. I do.
JS: What kinds of songs?
JOANNA: Textbook songs. We looked textbooks, and mostly what I remember is we

did little lesson plans and we looked at different textbooks.
JS: Were they folk songs, or were they composed for the textbooks?
JOANNA: My feeling is that they were folk songs.
JS: But maybe not songs that you already knew.
JOANNA: No, I feel like I didnt know themlike I didnt grow up knowing them as
a child.
JS: Okay, what about choir? Were you in choir?
JOANNA: I was.
JS: Whatd you sing?
JOANNA: We sang, um. Our college choir conductor was considered to be good.
JS: Do you remember...?

148
JOANNA: I wish I did, his name was Robert somebody. And it wasnt Shaw! (They
laugh.) No, he was really good and there was only one [university name] choir. And
there was a monstrous community chorus that we were required to sing in.
JS: Thats neat.
JOANNA: The [university name] choir wasit was mandatory to sing in the [city
name] community chorus.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: And people used to try get out of it.
JS: But Ill bet you did major works there.
JOANNA: Yeah. And our choir touredwhere did we go? We went to Europe.
JS: Oh, thats good.
JOANNA: Yeah, twice. I dont remember what we sang. Justmore art songs. We
never really sang pop things.
JS: Right, right.
JOANNA: Theres a famousI wish I could remember his nametheres a famous

composer now, who was just becoming famous. He was friends with my choir
director, so we tried out a lot of his music.
JS: Oh.
JOANNA: We kind of like tested it out before it became public.
JS: Thats neat, yeah.
JOANNA: Yeah, it was.
JS: Okay, well, what kinds of singing experiences do you remember from your Orff
Schulwerk, were calling teacher education courses these days. Weve always called
them teacher training guidelines. The Guidelines people are getting rid of the word
training.
JOANNA: Well, I remember not very much singing, except singing games, but not
singing anything else.
149
JS: Like play parties.
JOANNA: Play parties and singing games. [Teacher name], I had [teacher name].
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: We did a lot of play parties and singing games in Level I. Then I took
another level in [city name]. And we did a lot of little kid singing with singing games
and puppets and, you know, thats [teacher name]. Then I went to [state name] and
took a Level II, and I have no memory of singing there. Then I
JS: Did you play pieces from the volumes?
JOANNA: No, I almost have no memory of that. I just had that one teacher, [teacher
name], and, you know about my alto recorder experience. (Laughs) I know there was
a lot examining of the volumes and talking about 1-3, 1-2, 1-6, but never really
feeling like I understood it. And I dont have any memories singing. There was just
Level II that year, and it was a small Level II.
JS: So what did you do? Play instruments?
JOANNA: I guess we played instruments and looked at the volumes and played
arrangements. I certainly dont remember doing any singing.
JS: No canons?
JOANNA: Maybe canons.
JS: But you dont remember?
JOANNA: No, I dont.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: And then, when I got to Level III, there was lots of singing. [Teacher
name] did allwe sang everything first.
JS: So when you say, you sang everything first, do you mean the instrumental pieces?
JOANNA: Um hmm. We learned the instrumental pieces by singing. And it was all
through solfge, and I was lost. And then--
JS: Did you read it from the staff, or did she teach it to you by rote using solfge? Or
maybe some of both?
150
JOANNA: I think mostly reading. But it was done the three minor modes and the
three major modes. And so you started singing Dorian on La, with the altered pitch
syllables and bridging on La, so I was really lost. It was really, really hard for me.
The only way I could do it would be if I close my eyes and see the piano. Thats the
only way I could do it, okay it's a b-flat but I could never call it Te. So, I mean, it
was like jumping into level three Kodly without having any
JS: Its hard
JOANNA: Yeah, it was frustrating to me.
JS: Was that [teacher name]?
JOANNA: Yeah.
JS: I dont know why I was thinking you had Level III with somebody else, ok.
JOANNA: No it was [teacher name]. And then I later worked a summer with [another
teacher name] as kind of like a Level II scribe, and there was all kinds of Kodly-ish
singing going on. Thats how people learned how to do their arrangements, their folk
song arrangements were taught by singing syllables first and then going on to the
instruments.
JS: Okay, I see. Okay, back to Level I for just a second. So you said you sangYou
did singing games with [teacher name]?
JOANNA: Yeah. And we did have morningI'm remembering we had a morning

sing with all the levels, so it must have been canons.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: Kind of like [another teacher] did, cause [teacher name] visited there. She
was kind of like the apprentice of my Level I. And then there was always a morning
sing, and at [university name], there still is, a morning canon sing. I think [teacher
name] took that from the [university name] course. It was canons mostly.
JS: In Level I, besides the singing games and the canons and so forth, do you
remember singing songs that you accompanied yourself with?
JOANNA: No. I dont. I think we played pieces from the volumes, and we got in
groups and ourand wrote homework--but I dont remember if it involved singing.
JS: Okay, okay.

151
JOANNA: Yeah, at Level I.
JS: With [2nd teacher] Level I?
JOANNA: With [2nd teacher] Level I, I feel like we did more singing.
JS: So maybe, accompanied with a drone or something, call and chant?
JOANNA: Yeah.
JS: Okay, alright, good thanks, Jacque. Describe how you incorporate singing into
the teaching of children, into your teaching of children.
JOANNA: Well, we dont sight-sing anything. So our children learn to sing by

echoing us. And sometimes when they get older they read music and sing. They
mostly learn to sing by echoing. Our veryinterestingly, our littlest kids can sing
We dont sing pitch syllables, so our littlest kids can learn a 2-line staff, and they can
go [singing and signing] G,E, G,A,G,G,E, so they actually are reading and sight-
singing. And then it goes away. We dont continue it until they get to the five-line
staff. In third grade they might do C,G,A,G,E,E,C, and theyIn third grade they are
still remembering all their hand signs.
JS: Okay, and youre doing Curwen hand signs?
JOANNA: We are doing Curwen hand signs and I had to talk [my colleague] into that
when I first got here. But like our little first graders, when theyre just playingI
go2, 4, 6, 8, Im going (singing) G, E
JS: With Curwen hand signs?
JOANNA: Uh huh. Singing with letters and showing Curwen hand signs. But it
doesnt continue after that. As soon as we do teach transposition around the fall of
third grade, it stops.
JS: So its kind of like fixed Do.
JOANNA: It is fixed Do.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: And it stops the minute we go to [the key of] F. When we transpose our
instruments, we learn about transposition so that we can play the recorder, so that we
152
havewe can go back and play of our So, Mi, So, Mi, as C and A. We stop with the
signs completely. We never make the connection...
JS: Do you still use the solfge syllables when you are in a different key?
JOANNA: No.
JS: Cause, you just sang So. Okay, but C, A, C, C, are just sung on a
JOANNA: Okay, so they would sing C A and there would be reading it and playing
it on their recorders. So they are not sight-singing it.
JS: Right, so its really thatand I think is what Avon taught too, was that when we
went when we started playing recorder, thats when we went to the staff.
JOANNA: Okay, the second graders and third graders understand the staff, and if you
ask them to do something in C pentatonic they probably could go (singing) C, C, A,
A, G, G, E, C, D, E, pretty accurately. And then it just stops.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: Its awesome.
JS: Alright, okay. So besidesI think what you just told me is that you guys sing. So
tell me what you sing? What kinds of songs that you sing?
JOANNA: We sing the songs that the kids are playing on the barred instruments.
JOANNA: Always.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: We always sing it. So, the first melody in first grade is (singing on So and
Mi), Halloween is coming, witches in the air, ghosts and bats are everywhere. And
we teach it to them like this, Halloween isand we just have them the sing the
melody but we put the hand signs in it, and we tell them, This (So hand sign) means
play G, now sing what were doing. (Singing) G, G, E, and then we go to the
instruments and try to do it.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: And then theres always a minor 3rd on any given beat.
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JS: Okay.
JOANNA: The G and the E.
JS: Okay, so besides
JOANNA: Singing.
JS: Singing before they play it, so kind of using the voice as a tool. And this is
already developing as of theme, and I dont mind telling you, very common for us to
sing it before we play it. Besides that, are there songs that they sing?
JOANNA: Yes.
JS: That they accompany themselves with?
JOANNA: Most of the time, when we pick a piece from the volumes, we play it on
the recorder, play the melody on the recorder, and work the melody on the barred
instruments. If we write a text for a piece on the bars, then they sing it. But we don't
sing things from the volumes.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: Until we write text. Then they might sing a verse, play a verse, do a verse
on the recorder, sing a verse
JS: So you would take an instrumental piece from the volumes, write a text, have the
kids write a text to go with, you know, sometimes they play it, sometimes they sing it.
JOANNA: Yes.
JS: And then, like you just said, sometimes theyll play it, sometimes theyll sing it.
JOANNA: Like, for example, in third grade, at the end of their medieval feast, they
had, they did a song about Saint George and the dragon, and we wrote words for the
double canon.
JS: Cool! Okay.
JOANNA: (Singing) We have made a plan that a dragon should, use his power for
the common good, and I taught the song first.
JS: Thats great!

154
JOANNA: And then, they figured out how to play it on the bars. And there was a
verse where they sang it and verse where they played it.
JS: Good!
JOANNA: And we also sing things that we dont play on the instruments. Holiday
material that we dont play on the instruments, so we sing a couple of Halloween
songs, we sing Simple Gifts every year, that we dont accompany on the barred
instruments.
JS: So there is almost a sense that there is this kind of singing that happens thats
really not necessarily Orff Schulwerk.
JOANNA: Oh, definitely!
JS: Its just a separate thing. Just like Do you guys sing canons and rounds
sometimes?
JOANNA: Always, yeah, and usually a canon is for a division. So the first, second,
third, and fourth graders will all be singing a canon, for say, Thanksgiving. And then
we come together for an assembly and the first graders are able to put it together in
canon because the big kids are there.
JS: Yeah, cool.
JOANNA: And it will have nothing to do with, you know, dotted quarter note.
JS: So its not a curricular thing.
JOANNA: No.
JS: Its just learning it, for the joy of singing it. Okay, lets see whats next? Well, its
a very similar question, and the answer may be the same. Well see. How do you
incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your levels classes?
JOANNA: Well, in Level II, we try to sing every morning as rule, not every morning,
but almost every morning. And I try to sing something in the mode that we're going to
be in, doesnt always work.
We did not sing something in Re pentatonic this morning. Although I did sing
Shady Grove for them, so they could hear that its a real folk song in Re. No, we
almost always start with a canon and, you know, I have one for Mixolydian and one
for Phrygian and one for Dorian and one for Ionian, so
155
JS: Benjy Met a Bear
JOANNA: Yeah. The worst Phrygian canon ever written!
JS: Somebody needs to write a new Phrygian canon!
JOANNA: Can somebody write it in a different Phrygian canon!? And you know,
Ive done a lot of singing with my level studentsthings that I bring. Like three or
four songs that I have written. And we always include singing as part of some of the
volumes pieces.
JS: Meaning, again do they write the text, or you use as really a song from the
volumes?
JOANNA: We wouldWe would not sing (singing) Simple Simon Met a Pieman
Going to the Fair.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: We would either use the words that I wrote, which about Mayday, or we
would just sing (singing) La la la la la la la la. I'm trying to think if there's anything
the volumes we sing as it is, with the text.
J. Scott: Seems like for sharing either last year or year before last, there was
something we did.
JOANNA: Oh! Yes, we always do (singing) The sun descending in the west.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: That has a song that is still appealing, I think, to levels students and to
sixth graders. So, weve done that. Weve done Mary Helen, Caroline. Oh, yeah,
sometimes, so I would say that my singing of songs that I like in the volumes are the
same songs that I do with kids and adults.
JS: Okay. So not a lot of folk songs, you dont do a lot of folk songs.
JOANNA: In my levels teaching or?
JS: Either one.
JOANNA: Id say we do more at [my school] than we do in my levels teaching. At

[my school], we do, when were studying African-American, we always do spirituals
156
with just the third graders. And we taught the kids in fourth grade Japan musicyou
know, a Japanese song.
JS: Good.
JOANNA: But I dont do that here.
JS: Right. Well, I mean you sang Shady Grove for them.
JOANNA: Yeah, I meanWe do Kol Dodi-- thats my one folk song that we do.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: But no, there is no folk song or arranging going on.
JS: Okay, good.
JOANNA: Im sure that doesnt surprise you.
JS: No. No big surprise. Okay some of the research I read suggests that there are
times in Orff Schulwerk this will not be surprise to you, when students just sing. We
talked about this a minute ago. And other times when they sing in combination with
other media, like maybe they sing and dance, or they sing and play. We may have
covered this a little bit. Butwhat are some examples of how singing is taught by
itself? Well, youve already said. I think youve already answered this question.
JOANNA: Well, canonsAnd I like toone of the things I like to do when the
children are learning a new canon, and they feel pretty secure in singing it in a
cappella; I like to walk through them, singing the next partto see if I can mess
them up, so singing canons. Does that answer your question?
JS: Well, and then along with canons, sometimes you combine movement, alright.
Youll have them choreograph that.
JOANNA: Yes, so like, Boots of Shining Leather. We always choreograph that.
JS: So thats an example of combiningYeah, so thats an example of combining

the
JOANNA: Singing and moving in canon.
JS: One of Cecilia Wangs articles. This is really interesting. Its not really part of the
question, but it is interesting to know. She did a study and watched about twenty
different people whove been trained at Kentucky, Im sure. And one of the things she
157
found was that with Orff Schulwerk teachers, no time was wasted in the first place,
but also she said Its like they can spend 50% of their time on singing, and 50% of
their time on movement, and another 50% of the time on playing instruments;
because their doing it all at the same time. So...
JOANNA: Really efficient.
JS: I guess yeahSo thats what Im asking about. Can you name a couple of other
examples of time when you do more than one thing at once?
JOANNA: Like Boots of shining leather, when we learn it, were already, moving
it (singing and showing dance steps) If you dance then you must have, boots of
shining of shining leather. And like, four steps in, four steps out. Echo it. Echo what
I did and what I sang.
JS: So, you just teach it simultaneously? Both parts simultaneously.
JOANNA: Mm hm. And sometimes at the barred instruments. Im thinking of like a

second grade or a third grade kind ofsecond grade thing in Re pentatonic, we
would be singing the melody and moving it at the same time. I cant think of a time
when I taught movement, barred instruments, and singing all at the same time.
JS: Right, right. But might be times in a final performance when their doing all those
things.
JOANNA: Obviously.
JOANNA: All the time.
JS: Yes.
JOANNA: Yeah.
JS: Good, I think thats it. What proportion of your time would you say is spent on
singing? And I dont really mean for you to give me a percentage, but do the children
sing every day when they come to music?
JOANNA: I would say the proportion of singing goes down as the children get older.
JS: Thats really helpful.
JOANNA: I would say in the lower school, where I teach and supervise first, second,
third and fourth grade, I would say the children sing almost every day. And in middle
school less and less and less.
158
JS: So it becomes much more of an instrumental ensemble.
JOANNA: The recorder is the sight-reading tool with the old kids for sure. They
would read it, theyve figured out how to play it, and then maybe they could sing it,
and every once in a while were singing like Carrion Crow, a Dorian piece in sixth
grade. We just teach the song and then you see the kids trying to figure out how to
play it on their recorders, but usually its in reverse.
JS: Okay, right. Do you believe that singing in Orff Schulwerk in the United States
has changed over the years since youve been teaching? Or over the years since you
first became aware of Orff Schulwerk?
JOANNA: I think its increased.
JS: Say if
JOANNA: I think theres more singing now, than there was when I went through my
levels training, except when I got to [one of the universities where I teach in the
summer], where there is such an equally strong Kodly program, that I always felt
like [names of two teachers] really emphasized singing, more that anybody.
JS: Even to the extent of having a separate choral hour for a while?
JOANNA: For a long while. First with [choral teacher and then with [another choral
teacher], so that they made that a part ofThey believed it to be so important that it
should be its own thing.
JS: They probably influenced that. So you think when you first started there wasnt as
much singing and now there might be more?
JOANNA: Well, I might have just contradicted myself, because when I first got there
as a student that was the most singing I'd ever had, having everything done with pitch
syllables and I didn't know how to do it as a young Orff student. But then having an
hour of choir was wonderful, with [the choral teacher], who knew how to sequence
and break things down. And then, when that hour went away, I feel like there wasnt
a separate time for it, but maybe we all got better at incorporating it in everything we
do. So, I think that now the summer teaching atMy summer teaching has more
singing than perhaps I had in my early levels.
JS: In your Level 1.
JOANNA: Excluding [teacher name]. Excluding [university name].

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JS: Okay, alright, good. That made me think. You said with [your Level I teacher],
besides the singing games and stuff, you didnt incorporate your singing with the
instruments.
JOANNA: Right.
JS: And in Level II, you hardly sang at all.
JOANNA: I dont remember any singing in that.
JS: Okay, so see Im a little off-script here, but I think somethings come up that Im
interested in knowing. Do you think it has anything to do with the different
approaches to the Schulwerk in the United States?
JOANNA: Yeah. I think that [university name] had a much stronger emphasis on, not
only sight-singing but singing. By the fact that we had our separate hour and I think
thats a direct result of [my teachers] close connection to [a choral teacher name] and
to [another teacher] being over both Orff and Kodly. So she wanted all the graduate
students, they all had to take Orff I and Kodly I, and she did as much of this as she
could.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: As opposed to other places where that doesnt happen. I dont think
theres as much emphasis on singing at [university name]. You know, we have our
morning sing.
JS: Right.
JOANNA: But I dont think theres as much of it going on there.
JS: The incorporation of it.
JOANNA: Exactly. Its kind of course specific, actually. I havent reallyI dont
have a very good memory of that summer [when I took my first Level II] at all,
except that I was traumatized by the alto recorder lessons, which were self taught!
Maybe thats why I dont remember at all.
And there wasThere was some question when did that terrible at Level II; there was
some question about whether or not they would let me into [the teachers] Level III. I
had to try out. And there was some question about whether I was going to take Level
II again or whether they would let me into [the teachers] Level III. I had to try out
Sunday night.
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JS: Yeah, I think its interesting. When the students in the levels courses come to you
in the summers and you sing with them, how would you describe that the quality of
their singing? I mean, whats their ability like?
JOANNA: To echo or to sight-sing?
JS: I think Im just talking about the quality of their voices in general. Their pitch
matching, the beauty of the sound.
JOANNA: Ive experienced summer teachers who can't match pitch.
JS: Really?
JOANNA: It's rare. And then Ive experienced people who loved it, for whom it was
more a part People who really stand out who just loved it, folk who really stand out
as loving singing, loving harmonizing. And loving improvising. They just adored
that. And Im gonna do a little more of it because of having taught them.
JS: Good.
JOANNA: Like today, I asked my students to try to sing Re pentatonic without

hearing it, without playing it first on the Orff instruments. And I said, If you want to,
think about singing D-E-G-A-C-D, or you wanna think about singing re-mi-sol-la?
How will you do it? Because I didn't sing it for them first. I said, Are you going to
sing letter names, are you going to sing syllables? Try to sing this. And they were
accurate.
JS: Good!
JOANNA: Yeah, they were accurate.
JS: Their ability you would say is pretty good?
JOANNA: Their ability to sight-sing is pretty good.
JS: When they sing canons, that you've taught by rote, are you pleased with the
sound?
JOANNA: Yeah, generally. I have had some students who cant match pitch, but its
an anomaly. Usually the canons sound beautiful. Sometimes, it sounds a little
different from course to course.
JS: Yeah. The places in the country vary, don't they?

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J. Schrader: Mm Hm.
JS: Its really interesting. Okay. Well, thats all the questions I have. Do you want to
add anything? You said you didnt think you knew much about singing, but you just
gave me a ton of great material.
JOANNA: Well, I think that it should be our goal, a key to do more singing at [my
school]. Our kids resist it a little bit because, as we do less, it becomes like a bigger
deal to do it. But they are always saying, Please can we dance, please can we do
this? But they are not saying, Please can we sing. And I dont know if thats just
the shyness of the adolescent boys and voice changing and the girls becoming aware
of the boys whose voices are changing. For a long time, I have fought and have
voiced that our middle-schoolers should not be singing canons because usually a
canon finds its beauty in a range. What makes a canon beautiful is having a big range
and our middle-schoolers were not singing canons beautifully, at all.
JS: That's because they dont have a range at that time.
JOANNA: And, you know, [my colleague] or someone else who was in charge will
just tell the 8th graders or the 7th graders, Well just go down the octave, if you cant
hit that high part, just go down an octave. And so what we had was a lot of 7th grade
boys who were just singing out, just singing, grumbling along. Even if they maybe
could have gone back into their head voice, they weren't told to. So a solution that we
were coming up with for middle school that's working pretty well was to kind of write
a second part. So Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho. We wrote a 7th grade boy
line.
JS: Like an obbligato or a
JOANNA: Like a bass line.
JS: Whats it called, its cambiata part? Thats the word for it. The changing voice
part. Narrow range.
JOANNA: Yeah, they had a much narrower range, fewer words in itI think it
freed the girls up to enjoy the higher notes and it freed the boys up to do like some
(singing) drum-ba-ru-rum, ba-da-rum-da-rum. They loved that! So I think for us to
have success in our Orff Schulwerk classes in the middle school, we have to find
more ways of doing that because the ranges just don't match.
JS: Okay. Thank you so much.
JOANNA: Youre so welcome.

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JS: This is very helpful.
JS: So here we go, these are the supplementary questions with Joanna. Today is
Tuesday, June 23rd, and were here talking with Joanna. Okay and so weve been
talking about singing and I asked you about your earliest memories and your teaching
of children and teaching of adults. And so I have a few follow-up questions. So kinda
going back to your history, tell me about-- and I think you may have already done this
some, but tell me about your vocal music or chorus teachers and what made them
good or not good.
JOANNA: Okay, thats pretty easy. I have a song memory of my choralemiddle

school chorale teacher and my high school choral teacher. So, what made them good?
JOANNA: Or not.
JS: Or not.
JOANNA: I adored my middle school chorus teacher and it was the first time I ever
sang the Hallelujah Chorus.
JS: In middle school!
JOANNA: I dont know if the 8th graders should be singing it, but we did! And her
name was [teacher name]. And I justI think was in an after-school program with
her and chorus. What made her good? I dont know I just loved it. She made me feel
like I was good. She made me feel like a valued member of the group.
JS: And that probably is what made it good.
JOANNA: And then I think my high school choral teacher really was pretty talented.
He has gone on to in his retirement and later on in his career, hes been writing a lot
of musicals for like Broadway, off-Broadway themes. So what made him good? I just
don't remember, I can't say a bad thing about him. I just feel like we sang a lot of
varied music and there was that Madrigal group so I really liked that. There was some
kind of showy things. So, I think they were both really good. They both made me feel
like I should continue with music.
JS: And you probably likedsounds like you liked the selections.
JOANNA: I did.
JS: For the music you sing.
JOANNA: I did.
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JS: Hallelujah Chorus.
JS: And madrigal versus musicals
JOANNA: Yeah, yeah.
JS: So, good variety. Okay, now Im moving ahead to college. What was your
favorite music education course in college and why was it your favorite?
JOANNA: I only remember one elementary music class, okay, and she was really old.
[laughter] I think her first name was Virginia. I really only remember one. This is my
memory of elementary methods. One day we would look at this book series, and one
day we looked at that book series. I reallyI dont have a lot of memory of what we
did, except the best thing she ever did was place me for my student teaching with
someone who had just completed her Orff levels. At that time, it was [university
name]. Her name was [teacher name], and she would later went on to be the president
of the [chapter name] chapter. So, somehow she knew that I needed the right--
JS: To be a good fit.
JOANNA: The right teacher. I dont remember much about my methods class, sorry.
JS: Okay. And thats the only music ed course. That was your favorite music ed
course?
JOANNA: Im sure I had high school courses also but that was my onlyI really
think I only had it for one semester, and then student teaching.
JS: Okay. The other follow-up question is what was that music education professor
particularly good at teaching? Do you remember?
JOANNA: I really dont.
JS: Maybe just the experience of being placed with a good teacher was the best thing.
JOANNA: Thats about the bestyeah, I dont have a memory of what we did in that
class, other than I think I liked it cause I knew I was gonna be a music edyeah, I
knew I was gonna be a teacher and not a performer and a lot of the kids were in the
theory classes, really wanted to sing arias for the rest of their life. So, Im sorry I
dont remember any more.
JS: Okay, thats alright. When you decided to enroll in levels courses, what was the
thing that attracted you most about the Orff approach?
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JOANNA: I think having been student teaching with somebody who had just come
back from Level III. I think I started student teaching either right in fall or perhaps in
the spring right after she completed her Level III. So, she was really excited about
Orff and thats what drew me to thinking about studying. And I studied theI took
Level I the very summer after I graduated from college.
JS: Well, what was it about her teaching of Orff Schulwerk that made you go?
JOANNA: Everybody, all the children were really involved and I didnt have
anything to compare it to. But, there was space in your room and they were up and
clapping and moving. I just liked it. Yeah, I have another memory, I just had another
memory. As a music ed student, I was required to go a Saturday workshop at my
university, which is where they held this Saturday Orff classes. And this is a memory
thatthis really did also help me wanna take Level 1. I went to a Saturday workshop
and the person would turn into the applause when she was introduced into an ostinato
pattern.
JS: Oh cool.
JOANNA: And I just thought, Oh my god. This is the coolest thing I've ever seen.
Im glad I got up on Saturday morning. I later found out it was Nancy Ferguson.
JS: Oh gosh. Thats really neat.
JOANNA: Yeah.
JS: So in the workshop with Nancy Ferguson and also in your student teaching, the
thing that drew you to Orff Schulwerk was, you said, the space in the room, the
movement,
JOANNA: The kids, the involvement. And everybody had something to do and in
that workshop-the Nancy Ferguson workshopI just remember feeling like, Oh, this
is so great. Just a Saturday workshop did it, with a talented teacher like Nancy
Ferguson.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: Yeah. One little Saturday workshop.
JS: Now is that still what attracts you to Orff Schulwerk or has your attraction
changed over the years? Well, is it still because the kids are involved?
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JOANNA: Well, itsI still think its the most rewarding way to teach and learn
music because it feels so much like part of it is coming from the students. It doesnt
feel like a dictatorship; it feels like people are taking ownership over their learning
because they are involved in music making. I also really like the collaborative work. I
like to watch the adults working together on projects and the kids working together in
solving things. So I think thats been one of the important parts of Orff Schulwerk.
JS: Okay, good.
JOANNA: Am I done?
JS: No! [laughter] Sorry. When you recall your own levels teachers, what kinds of
things were they very good at teaching, and what kinds of things were they not so
good at teaching?
JOANNA: Well, I had one person who was a terrible recorder teacher. No I had two,
no I had three people. I dont think I had very good recorder training.
JS: Your recorder experience was like my movement experience.
JOANNA: Yeah, it was terrible. So that section was bad. In Level III, thats where I
have the clearest memories, the things that my Level III teacherAm I allowed to
say who it was? [Teacher name] was really, really good
JS: I give them an anonymous They won't know...
JOANNA: She is the person who helped me understand the process. So that was my
favorite thing about Level III. I had seen her teach in a conference and I said, Thats
who I wanna take Level III with. Cause I had been kind of bouncing around, in my
levels. And I think I had two Level Is and maybe even two Level IIs, before I settled
in on [my Level III teacher]. I just loved the way she would break something down
and put it back together. She was the best with that.
JS: So thats what you mean by process? Joanna, you and I know what we mean, but I
just wanna be sure that youre defining process.
JOANNA: So Im defining it asin two ways really. And she was good at both of
them. One was having a little germ of an idea and developing that into something
unknown and huge. And the other was looking at something that was given and big
and finding a way to break it down for students, for me so that it felt like
approachable. So this way or this way, and Im making a B with my hand.
JS: Alright. [laughter]

166
JOANNA: The thing she wasnt very good at for me was that when I went into that
Level III, I was really expected to be familiar with Kodly. And, not only was I
expected to be familiar with it, but I was supposed to even know altered pitch
syllables. Because we approached the 3 minor modes as la to la and the 3 major
modes as do to do. So we did a lot of singing with hand signs and not only could I
barely do diatomic C to C, but when we got to mixolydian, for example, we had Te,
and, yeah, I had no idea what Te was! So I was really lost. I thought that was justI
dont know if she was bad at teaching it or I was just bad at doing it, but I hated that
part of Level III.
JS: Maybe the other people in the class had the same strand of teachers, and so they
had been trained in it.
JOANNA: Clearly. So what were they good at and what were they not good at? Yeah,
and I hadI really had great movement training all the way throughdifferent
movement, varied movement. So I think that was a good benefit.
JS: Okay. To what extent do you think you emulate your own levels teachers? And I
know youre gonna say you dont teach altered hand signs [Crosstalk] But you do use
solfge in Level II sometimes, dont you?
JOANNA: I have stopped using it and I have told the students to sing it re to re if
thats what theyre comfortable with.
JS: Yeah, so Dorian, you sing re to re.
JOANNA: Mm hm. If they want to or if theyreI mean I only ever do it by

picturing a keyboard in my head, and I have to sing li-li-li, because I could see half-
steps on the keyboard. Okay, how do I emulate. I think, because I had so many
different teachers, particularly for movement, I had really structured both dance
experiences and wild, out there experiences at the Orff institute. I like to think that, as
a movement teacher, I have a good blend of those two things. And in ensemble, how
have I imitated my teachers? Well, I mean, yeah, I guess I have. And Ive changed
some things, but I feel like the people whove taught me, like [names of 3 teachers]. I
think Id like to think that I am good at breaking things down. I would like to think
that I'm good at choosing quality materials, which is something my teachers modeled
well.
JS: Thats good. Okay. When youre teaching children, what are your favorite
activities to teach and why? And then also, what are your least favorite activities to
teach and why? Whats your favorite?
JOANNA: My least favorite activities to teach are Halloween songs. [Laughter]

There you go.
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JS: Okay.
JOANNA: My most favorite things to teach are big, exciting pieces from the volumes
that the kids create dances to. Like the big Dorian Dance, in sixth grade. We did a big
Taiko drumming thing in sixth grade this year. Like the big pentatonic pieces and the
big modal pieces that I get to teach to them. I love to teach little children to singing
games. I love to teach first and second graders singing games, like Old King Glory
of the Mountain.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: And Alabama Gal and, I dont know. Those two are coming to mind.
Um, Zudio. I love to work with poetry. I love to work with language with children.
I love to watch children develop language. But those are my favorite things to do
things to do with children. My least favorite things to do with children are to tutor
them in recorder and to teach them Halloween songs.
JS: Can you say why?
JOANNA: Why?
JS: Why those are your least favorite things to do.
JOANNA: Because Halloween songs feel like not my choice.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: Thats put upon us by somebody who says, Were going to have a
Halloween parade and the children have to learn these songs and tutoring recorder
isnt fun to me because I just want them to go home and practice it.
JS: Yeah, its tedious.
JOANNA: Yeah, its tedious.
JS: What about those favorite things that you mentioned, why would you say that
those were your favorites?
JOANNA: Well, I think just of the joy on the faces of those kids.
JS: Dorian dance, my gosh, and the singing games.

168
JOANNA: I mean Im just thinking about the little ones, when theyre doing
Alabama Gal, they just couldnt stop smiling. They just couldnt and theres
nothing like a classroom of second graders who are almost out of control [Laughter]
with joy, with sheer joy. And the older kids, just to see them actually get excited
about something while their slouching in their chairs with their hormones raging.
Yeah, and sometimes its kinda cool when you see a theoretical light go on, when
something really makes sense to the child that didnt before; like harmonizing over i-
VII. To have a sixth grader on alto recorder actually saying, Oh, I hear that. I hear
what I did, and its making sense with what I know about triads. Thats rewarding to
me.
JS: Absolutely. Okay. Whatwell, I think youve already answered this. The
question is what do children seem to enjoy the most when theyre being taught with
an Orff approach? Its slightly different. I mean, youve talked about why they
enjoyedI mean you [ crosstalk] enjoy teaching
JOANNA: Truthfully, its movement.
JS: Really?
JOANNA: They want to be out of their chairs! Even those rowdy sixth graders will
come in and say, Are we dancing today. Please dont make us do this i-VII paper.
(Laughs)
JS: Yeah, so they dont want to do the written assignments.
JOANNA: Well, they do it and they accept it as part of the deal.
JS: Yeah.
JOANNA: Because of our situation. But really I think the thing that they may love
most is getting up and moving. They love challenging melodies of course, they love
getting their recorder in fourth grade, thats a big event. They love getting their altos
in 5th grade, but I dont know, I think they love movement.
JS: Okay,
JOANNA: Probably because I do.
JS: Well it might be. Yeah, its interesting. And what do you say they enjoy the least
in your classroom?
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JOANNA: Polishing. Reworking something that some people already had and some
people dont. Fine-tuning things maybe for a performance that they are starting to be
a little sick of.
JS: They think they already know it, just wanna do it.
JOANNA: Yeah. But usually
JS: Well you said they enjoy movement, can you compare it
JOANNA: I think the middle-schoolers dont enjoy singing as much. They would
rather be moving or playing some challenging bar piece. Sometimes there will be
some grumbles, sometimes in middle school, not the little guys.
JS: Okay. We are getting close. Well thats the next question. Do the children in your
classes like to sing? Are they good at singing? And why do you think this is so if
theyre good at singing? So you talked about grade levels again if you want to.
JOANNA: In the lower, in first grade, we have to do an enormous amount of work

with pitch matching because, unfortunately, our three kindergarten teachers sing all
the time and in a very bad range for 6-year-olds. And even though we have tried to
talk with them, and even though [the lower school music teacher] has music with
them once a week for 20 minutes, their classroom teachers sing really low; and often
times our first graders come in not even being able to match pitch, because they have
been trying to match the pitch of these kindergarten teachers who think they are doing
a good thing by singing all the time with their kids, (Singing in low register) Now
well get our shoes on, shoes, on, shoes on (laughter) So in first grade, we often have
our work cut out for us to get them into their head voice.
JS: Yeah. (Laughter)
JOANNA: I forgot the rest of the question.
JS: Well, in first grade you have to work with them on pitch..
JOANNA: We really have to work with them on pitch.
JS: How do you do that? Hows the pitch matching?
JOANNA: Well, we dont do a lot of real games, like we dont get the thing out
where they sing in to it and listen to it, I just model a lot and do vocal explorations a
lot with the little ones and
JS: Like individual singing?

170
JOANNA: Some individual singing, yeah. Some individual singing. And we listen to
them more and each singer gets a little praise.
JS: And is it call and chant, or?
JOANNA: Not necessarily. It would just be, (singing) Come through in a hurry,
come through in a hurry. Then the next child sings, Come through in a hurry,
Alabama Gal. We just kind of listen. Id say that our first, second, third to fourth
graders sing really in tune. They can sing canons, four-part canons, as a lower school,
they have their head voice, they can sing independently while another part of the
canons going on. So I think they sing really well in the lower school. And the middle
school as they become more resistantand I think as we are less able to choose really
appropriate material for them, they pull back a little bit. So we just kept singing
canons, and canons often have high ranges and we lose people. So I might not have
mentioned earlier that when we started writing things that
JS: The Cambiata part.
JOANNA: Cambiata part, we got our boys back in sixth grade, so thats something
that we need to do more of.
JS: Okay. Alright. When youre teaching adults, in levels courses, what are your
expectations for the kinds of musical knowledge and skills that these music educators
should already have before they meet you for the first time?
JOANNA: Wow, thats a complicated question.
JS: It is.
JOANNA: One more time.
JS: Okay.
JOANNA: Would that mean their pedagogical skills in the classroom or their
understandings?
JS: Their musical knowledge and skills. I thinkyeah, so what are your expectations
for the kinds of musical knowledge and skills that these music educators should
already have before they meet you for the first time? What do you expect?
JOANNA: They ought to be able to match pitch. They ought to be able to recognize
form. They ought to be able to move in a steady beat. They ought to be able to have
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some creativity in their movement. They ought to be able to improvise in pentatonic

when they come to Level II. I mean, you dont need classroom management skills?
JS: No, I think youre exactly on target.
JOANNA: And I think they have to have-- to be able to have some analysis of the
development of pentatonic materials. By the time they get to Level II, they have to
have some understanding of how we got to pentatonic.
J. Scott: Music reading.
J. Schrader: Yeah. Some sight-singing, some recorder playing.
JS: And they may or may not come to us in Level 1 to be able to play the recorder.
JOANNA: Exactly.
JS: But sight-singing.
JOANNA: Apparently, yeah. I mean Ive heard some Level I people say that not
everybody matches pitch. I have occasionally experienced a student in Level II that
really wasn't matching pitch. It's pretty rare, but it happens.
JS: Have music educators knowledge and skills changed in the last ten years and if
so, how?
JOANNA: Its almost like I have to have a lens into how my own teaching has
changed to know the answer to that. I mean, if I looked at people ten years ago,
maybe their knowledge and skills didnt look as good or maybe its because I wasnt
as good. So how do you make that measurement in time. Maybe? Maybe peoples
skills have been better, or maybe Im just better at developing them because Im more
experienced that I was 10 years ago.
JS: And maybe attending workshops more. I mean I think people in general know
more about what Orff Schulwerk is...
JOANNA: Than they did ten years ago?
JS: I think so.
JOANNA: I agree with that. Yeah.
JS: I think its kinda getting to be really common at TMEA and state music
conferences, and they go to workshops.
172
JOANNA: Yeah, they definitely are exposed. I don't know that our levels courses are
different than they used to be. I think there's more of them.
JS: Yeah, okay. Based on your experiences as an Orff teacher, what are the primary
reasons that music educators enroll in Orff levels courses?
JOANNA: Based on my experiences as an Orff Schulwerk teacher, what are the

primary reasons why they enroll?
JS: Why do they come?
JOANNA: They saw something at a state conference that sparked their interest. They
moved into a classroom with a bunch of instruments and they didnt know what to do
with them. They had an administrator who had a previous experience with an Orff
teacher and nudged them a little bit to get interested. They have a colleague who
helped them get turned on. They got money from their school and need to find a way
to spend it. They want some-- they want to feel more energized in their teaching and
need a boost. They switched from being a band director to being an elementary
teacher, elementary music teacher and they have no ideas and somebody told them
they might get some [ideas] if they came to Orff Level 1. Thats a lot of reasons.
JS: Thats good. Those are all great reasons. Typically, in your classes, and this goes
along with something we asked about the children Typically, what are the adults
favorite activities in Level II when you teach it, or in Level I, or movement or
whatever?
JOANNA: I mean its all over the map. I could say in Level II, what are their favorite
activities? Playing the big pieces, I think, playing the big pieces.
JS: Like the Dorian/Aeolian dance?
JOANNA: Hearing modal things for the first time. Hearing paraphony and putting it
together with percussion, hearing that for them As a movement teacher, I think
their favorite experience are taking risks and feeling good about it afterwards.
JS: And I think you touched on the answer to this when you talked about the modes
just a minutes ago. You talked about the modes, but why do you think those activities
appeal to them the most?
JOANNA: Well first of all, for most of them, theyre new. Its new sounds; and I
think theyre excited about modes differently. Ive heard them say a lot of times, Oh
god, if I only understood it this way when I was in college. So I think the new
sounds of the modes is kinda exciting to their ears. Its not just typical harmonized 1-
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4-5 like you hear on the radio. I think its interesting and new material and just fun to
work with people and make music all together in a big group. And most people dont
have that many chances to do that, except when they're in the levels courses when
they get to be playful and play pieces. A lot of people are the Sunday church
organists. But theyre the only person, or they may sing in a choir but theyre just
singing. So this is really joyful.
JS: Yeah, and the same way with movement.
JOANNA: Absolutely.
JS: Its novel.
JOANNA: Absolutely.
JS: A lot of people I know who come here at Level I say they never moved.
JOANNA: Well, thats the scariest thing of all; being a Level I music teacher who
constantly face people. Well, at least if youre teaching an ensemble, most of the
people that you are working with are music teachers, so they know what the concepts
of music, like melody and harmony end form and timbre or. But when you're
working as a movement teacher, they have no idea what movement concepts are.
They weren't trained as dancers so you're really starting from scratch. And that opens
up a lot more possibility, people can get excited about things they didn't know.
JS: Do you ever find that adult students are resistant to any activities in the levels
courses? What are they resistant to?
JOANNA: They are resistant to the thing thats the hardest for them. And being
exposed in the area thats hard for them; so some are resistant to vocal improv. Some
are resistant to playing a recorder part alone sometimes. For some people its their
written work.
JS: Is it sometimes movement?
JOANNA: Absolutely.
JS: Yeah. And sometimes their written work.
JOANNA: Sometimes its
JS: Whatever the weakest. You dont feel like theres one.
JOANNA: No.
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JS: You dont feel like theres one thing that, you think, Oh gosh I dread this.
JOANNA: I think people dread taking a risk in an area that doesn't yet make sense.
JS: So theres no activity that you can think of that you teach that you kinda think,
Oh Ive got to do this but I kinda dread It because theyre all gonna be resistant.
JOANNA: Maybe the riskiest thing is improvisation.
JS: And it doesnt matter what medium, just improvisation?
JOANNA: I think it depends again on what your history is, if you were--I mean I
loved vocal improv when I went through levels because I could hear it and do it.
ButAnd I couldnt play the recorder, I wasnt an instrumentalist who would rather
improvise on the recorder. So I think the medium is related to your own personal
experience.
JS: Okay, great. Now were back to singing again. This is after some questions after
the incorporation of guidelinesincorporation of singing, according to the
guidelines. And so the question is on what factor do you base your decision on how
youll incorporate singing, on what factors? I mean if its Alabama Gal, its
obvious.
JOANNA: Which? Children, or are we back on levels?
JS: I think it could be either one Both. Children or adults.
JOANNA: Children sing the melodies that theyre playing for the most part. They
have to be we always tell them to sing along with what they're playing; especially
for little kids. Adults, I try to pick a song every day that's in the mode that theyre
going to be singing that day. So they have the chance to hear the mode in our voices
and not just in the barred instruments.
JS: So its important because you want them to hear it internally.
JOANNA: I think theyre closer together and they can hear the harmonies when we
do it that way.
JS: What process do you use to decide how to incorporate singing?
JOANNA: What process do I use to decide how to incorporate singing?
JS: For me, its just

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JOANNA: Experience, the things that have worked before. If I hear a new canon, Ill
probably incorporate it at my school.
JOANNA: Okay. Alright and I think thats the last question. Do you have anything to
add? [laughter] You told me so much. You have given me so much great information.
You know we have an hour and a half on this, on this tape.
JOANNA: Who does?
JS: You do!

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Appendix C
Transcript of Interview with Julian
JS: Well shall we start?
JULIAN: Yes.
JS: Well first of all, I'm with Julian. Today is - July 26th 2009 and Julian, tell me first
of all, how long have you been teaching children, how many years?
JULIAN: My first official job as a licensed teacher was in 1982, so 27 years?
JS: Really, oh my gosh. Same here.
JULIAN: Yeah. I was also working in the university children's choir program for III
years as an undergraduate, it that counts.
JS: Yeah, that counts. And then how many years have you been teaching levels?
JULIAN: I started in 1988 as an assistanthelping. I think the first time I was -

official faculty was probably 1990 or something like that, so 15 years or so.
JS: And where did you do your Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses?
JULIAN: I did Level I at the [university name], with [three teacher names], and then
Level II and III at [university name] with [two teacher names] and [one more teacher
name] some of the time. [Teacher name] was my recorder teacher one year (They
laugh.)
JS: That's so funny, I didn't know that, Okay.
JULIAN: I think in Level II she was my recorder teacher.
JS: Great. Alright, well now we're going to start the official interview. So this is about
singing. As you know, the current title is, Orff Schulwerk Teacher Educators Beliefs
about Singing in Orff Schulwerk.
JULIAN: Oh. Good.
JS: That's the new title. So I want to go way back, Julian, and what are your earliest
memories of singing?
JULIAN: I didn't really sing much when I was a kid, outside of school.
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JS: So your parents didn't sing with you?
JULIAN: Yes, we did that. When, probably we had friends over at Christmas. One of
the kids would play the piano and everybody would sing alongChristmas carols. I
remember that. I remember singing in Churchhymns and things.
JS: Were you in the Church choir or anything?
JULIAN: No, I guess that's whats odd as it turned out, because I was never in the
choir. I think I was in church choir one year in middle school, because there were
other kids in it and I did it for a few months. I was a pianist so if I was asked to do
something either at church or at school, it was usually playing the piano. I remember
singing in an elementary school program in 4th grade.
JS: Did you have general music?
JULIAN: We did. Probably it was once a week and [our teacher] would roll the piano
into the classroom and play songs about autumn leaves and we would sing that... or
whatever it was. And once a year we would go out into the gym and sing our songs. I
remember doing that, and we had general music also in middle school. I remember
[another music teacher] singing songs and we thought it was so cool that we were
singing pop songs and things. The Staple Singers and This is the Dawning of the
Age of Aquarius and...
JS: Oh my goodness.
JULIAN: Songs by a guy named Donovan.
JS: Yeah, yeah.
JULIAN: The kind of stuff that was five years old, but it made its way into the
textbooks. I remember singing...you know a bunch of us boys doing, (singing) There
is nothing like a dame with mops and sailor hats and stuff, in the gym for one of our
programs. And that was about it. I mean, drips and drops of it. I was never a choir
person or a singer. I was mostly an instrumentalist.
JS: Pianist.
JULIAN: Yes, and saxophone and oboe. So that's what I thought I would do and then
I found out that I enjoyed general music, and suddenly I had to figure out how to use
my voice, and was required to take singing lessons and stuff like that.
JS: So lets go back. In high school, were you in band?

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JULIAN: Yes.
JS: Okay.
JULIAN: Yes, I was in band. I spent half the day in the band room in high school.
JS: Yeah.
JULIAN: And in the musicals, I was always in the pit. And same thing in [name]
theater or whatever. I was always in the pit. I was never in the singing class until I got
to college and then, because I was a pianist, I had to be in the ensemble. They put all
the pianists into piano theory and choir. So we were in the choir room with piano
majors and theory majors and they had ensembles. Third string sopranos who didn't
make the cut
JS: Didn't make the cut... (Laughter) Darn... Well, what kind of music did you sing in
that choir?
JULIAN: Well, that's the other thing. When I think back on it, the first semester, we
sang Dallapiccolathis twelve tone piece that...
JS: What an odd choice for that choir.
JULIAN: Well it was the doctoral conducting course. They put all of us into one
[group] that the doctoral students got to use for their ensembles. I also can't imagine
being a doctoral student and having studied all this highfalutin repertoire and then, the
choir youre given is a bunch of piano players and left over sopranos.
(Laughter)
JULIAN: That was amazing, because I thought, How the heck do these people know
what notes to sing?
JS: Yeah.
JULIAN: I'd never had solfge or anything, ear training of any sort, and as an
instrumentalist, you didn't know if it was a G, you played G. So that was kind of
interesting. I got to do we sang the Symphony of Psalms, all this repertoire that the
doctoral students had to do to pass out. Beethoven masses and Haydn masses. I'd
never really sung much before and you know...
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JS: Okay. Alright, I guess that's college. What do you recall about the actual
teaching? You've talked about the college students, but, going back to your choir
teacher, what do you recall about the teaching style?
JULIAN: In college or in...
JS: Well, either one. You can go back to school...
JULIAN: What I remember...
JS: Was there attention paid to vocal techniques?
JULIAN: No. As I recall anyway, it seems that what we now would call the
traditional. The teacher came in and we sang songs out of the book and he pointed out
the notes on the staff and your treble clef and 3/4, but I don't remember ever talking
about how we would sing, or including any specific things that would make us... sing
better. It was just, Sing.
And then in college, I had traditional voice lessons, again with a graduate student who
was a voice major and that was pretty much... These were not people who really
necessarily understood vocal pedagogy, so they were just replicating the exercises
they were asked to do in their lessons and trying to get me to do them. Very little
experience in training. So, I guess I was given models of all the different kinds of
things, the vocal technique that you have to work on, but I never felt very successful
in the techniques they were using.
In choir, it was really just about learning repertoire. There were warm-ups. And, the
person I remember doing the most of that was [teacher name], who teaches, I think
maybe in [state] now, and [another teacher name], who teaches over in [state]. They
were the ones I remember doing the most with the voice, and doing the As and
Os, and Lets pretend we're football players, rather than just treating us as
singers. They used some techniques that were outside of the normal voice lesson.
JS: Were the voice lessons required of youas an instrumentalist?
JULIAN: Yes, three or four semesters or something until I passed out ofsomething.
JS: Okay, and what was the repertoire you sang in those voice lessons? Was it art
songs or?
JULIAN: The 24 Italian Songs and Arias, and Purcell songs Oh we did have voice
class that was just for music ed majors, but I don't... I think it was called vocal
pedagogy. I remember singing different kinds of repertoire, and also looking at
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arrangements of show tunes and the kinds of things you might use in different
situations as a teacher. Actually I don't remember so much from that class.
JS: And who taught that? Was it a music major?
JULIAN: I think the gentlemans name was [name], who was, I think a voice doctoral
student at that time, but he had, his degrees were in music ed, so he had been a high
school teacher who was getting a doctorate, either in voice or music ed, I don't know
which.
JS: Okay great. What was your favorite music education course in college, and why
was it your favorite? I think I already know the answer to this from our last interview.
JULIAN: Well really, all of them. Well maybe not every single one, but my
introduction to music ed, with [name] was the one that turned me around from, I think
I wanted to be a famous piano player when I grew up, because other than being in
band, which I was kind of tired of by then, I hadn't done anything particularly
inspiring in school that would make me want to spend time doing that. So we did all
these fabulous things and just sang songs and traced the phrases. He just started
handing out drums and we played things, and he was so dynamic, and the things we
did were so interactive, so exciting that I thought, Wow I would kind of like to do
this. And then I had [teacher name] for my elementary methods class, and for the
first time some of it... Its not just about singing songs, and its not just about
explaining, 4 counts is a whole note. You really get involved. And of course then,
the beautiful thing about that was, she also was teaching at that time at an elementary
school. We went and saw her and [teacher name] shared a job at this school and were
showing us exactly what they were showing us in the class. And suddenly, it was a
real thing and it was fascinating, to think that you could get kids to do things that, of
course I had never done, until I was in high school or college. So that was pretty
amazing. And the part that wasn't part of the music ed course was the whole
University Children's Choir thing, which [name] was just kind of starting. I don't
really want to mess up your question.
JS: No, that's okay. You got to work with that class some.
JULIAN: Right. So we got to observe and then got to, when we finally had choral
methods, we began to put the theories of what we read in the book together with
seeing this thing, that vocal development as part of the choral rehearsal and education
as part of the choral rehearsal. I began to see that the world wasn't divided into the
choir and band and general music, like it said in the music catalog. It was really that
all those strands can be worked together no matter what the experience is.
JS: Great. What was your least favorite music education course, and why?
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JULIAN: I think as an undergraduate, all my music ed courses were pretty fabulous. I

think that orchestration and arranging and that, most of them were things that I'd
always wanted to do or had done informally, but never had the training, and once we
started, it was exciting.
JS: Okay, so there wasn't one.
JULIAN: Not that I can think of.
JS: Okay. That's fine.
JULIAN: Grad school maybe.
JS: (Laughter) Okay, Julian, I know we've talked about this before, but if you would
tell me again, how you decided to take Orff Schulwerk levels courses and what was
the thing that attracted you to Orff Schulwerk?
JULIAN: Yeah, having [those two great teachers] as my undergraduate teachers, I

kind of, by osmosis, got a lot of Kodly training, but [one teacher] also had infused
Orff Schulwerk things into what we did. So I was kind of hunting and pecking, you
know, to use that type of analogy, my way through Kodly and Orff, and my first
years as a teacher, but I really loved combining the recorder playing as an oboe
player, I thought, Wow, this is cool. I loved playing the recorder. I loved the ideas
of solfege, and I loved all the stuff to do with instruments, but I was kind of doing it,
to a degree, and when I went back to graduate school, I did my Kodly levels as part
of my graduate program, and [one of the teachers] said, Well, you guys should come
and do the Orff stuff at [state] too, and so, that's when we started there in Level I.
She kind of drug is over there and then once did that, I met [two more Orff teachers],
and it was so magical, the way they could get musical things to happen out of
virtually nothing, you know? And I thought, Wow, this is really creative and this is
kind of what I have been trying to do. Once I was in, I was in.
JS: Yeah. Okay. What kinds of things were your levels teachers particularly good at
teaching, and did they have any weaknesses, and if so, what were those weaknesses?
And I know, you know, in most courses, we are assigned to what we teach, because
that's our strength, but you know, if you can think of anything that was less effective.
JULIAN: And thats not true in all courses, or even in my own teaching, if I'm
teaching Level III and a Level I recorder, I love teaching recorder and I do recorder
all the time with my kids, but sometimes it doesn't get as much attention, because my
brain is busy doing other stuff, but I would say, I just feel really fortunate in the
training that I got. I mean, as far as orchestration and the arranging part, I had people
who were masterful, you know? There are things that still in [one of my teacher's]
orchestrations that I teach to my levels students now, 20 years later, because I just
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remember the first time hearing it, thinking That is just magical. It's beautiful, you
know? And for special topics, in those years at [state], at [university name], we had,
for quite a while, [a well-known choral music educator] as special topics, so we
basically had vocal development and choir, and vocal improvisation, and vocal
arranging, all modeled for us, which is something that isn't necessarily a feature of
other Orff Schulwerk courses. So, and then we had all the usual instrumental stuff
borduns and all that, and we had good recorder players as our recorder teachers. {One
of my teachers] is a fabulous recorder player, and she was our recorder teacher, so
technically we got a lot of information, but also how to make it fun. At [university
name], we had [teacher name], who has got to be one of the best teachers I know of
anything, you know? That was perhaps the thing I was most attentive to during my
levels, because I was completely amazed at how she could a. get me to do it and I
mean everyone, and b. to see how she took exactly the same process that I was
seeing, that I understood we were doing with xylophones, or with melodies and our
voice, and apply that same process to elements of movement. So I can't think of
anything I would have liked to do more.
And then even, by the time I was at Level III we had [another teacher] here as our
special topics. Yes an hour a day with him in Level III, which completely, like blew
the boxes of everything else we had done wide open, and yet he was doing exactly the
same thing, but in a way that I would never have imagined myself. And connecting it
to repertoire from here and there, and beyond tonalities and ears and things that we
had experienced as Orff Schulwerk, which I think also, I see as the trap that I and the
other courses sometimes fall into even now. You know we get stuck, kind of in the
guidelines and illustrating A through Z and it's sometimes hard to push out of that like
[that teacher] did, but with some of these are the people that I've seen do and make
this not feel like it's a compact tiny little box, you know, or a set of rules or
something, because with [that teacher], the only rules were, it had to make musical
sense. And that model for me, that Orff Schulwerk is not a thing unto itself but it is a
form of music education, which is what attracted me to it in the first place. I was a
music education major and I was trying to make it feel the way I saw these people
making it work with Orff Schulwerk, and so that resonated with me, but I could have
very easily, probably gone home and taught the same orchestration book over and
over that I had been...
JS: Right.
JULIAN: If it hadn't been for the example in [that visiting teacher] then who, who
showed us, you can do it just with your voice. Or [that teacher], who did it with just
sharps and flats. So, I don't know, I feel very fortunate in all my training that...
JS: Right. To what extent do you feel like you emulate your levels teachers?
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JULIAN: (Laughter) Well, I'm old enough now that it's probably not obvious, that all
the different candles have begun to melt together into something that's Julian, but
yeah, there's... I can go back and pin-point, this is the [teacher name] part of me, this
is the [another teacher name] part of me, this is the [another teacher name] part of me,
this is the [another teacher name] part... (He starts to crylump in the throat.) This is
the [another teacher name] part and this is the [another teacher name] part.
(Note: Julians teachers read like a Whos Who of music educators in the U.S.)
JS: Oh, yeah.
JULIAN: So, its all in there and I think... Its the most effective form of process we
describe as imitation, exploration and improvisation that I can think of, because...
JS: Thats a good analogy. Yeah.
JULIAN: No one can make this up on their own. You have to start somewhere, and
having seen such fabulous models, I just went out and tried to do what [teacher] did,
or what [teacher] had done, or what [teacher] had done and then began to put the
pieces together for myself. And that can not work for some. They only emulate
their model or imitate their model, and I mean, as with children, we never let them
take the pieces apart of even push them to take the pieces apart and put them together
in a new way. And I was always challenged to do that. In fact, I was challenged to do
that by being invited to come teach levels, earlier than one might be nowadays,
because then I was forced to really think, Well what do I think about this? What
parts of this are me? What can I bring to this that doesn't look like I'm imitating
[teacher]? That really set me on the path of weaving together these strands that were
for me and exploring and bringing my own musicianship that existed before I knew
about Orff Schulwerk and integrating all that into something that was... This is what
I do. Its all really all of them still there.
JS: Isn't that what we hope to give to our students, pass that on. If they, not only
shared with us but lifted us up to make it our own.
JULIAN: Yes.
JS: Its amazing.
JULIAN: And truthfully, knowing how successful that model is, I have to push
myself to be different kinds of teachers over the course of their time with me, or else
how do you know what the different pieces are in Orff Schulwerk? On the other hand,
I think that's one of the challenges of reforming music education in schools as it is
now, is that, many kids are in a room with one teacher and that's it, so what they come
to understand music to be, for most of them is whatever that teacher does. And how
can we say we're teaching the broadest possible view? At some point they need a
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home base. They need to start somewhere and be nurtured by someone, but if that
doesn't evolve through middle school or high school into now seeing other competent
people doing the same things in different ways, I don't think we are integrating
different kinds of views, continually expanding and challenging their view of what
music is now. I don't think we're really teaching music education. And even to have...
Especially some schools are so huge, it seems silly to only have one music teacher.
There should be a couple people, because in the schools I've taught, where I had a
teaching partner, I teach differently. I learn things from them.
JS: Okay, you've answered this a little bit but, what kinds of singing experiences do
you remember from your Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses? You talked
about the last hour of the day with [teacher name], and that was great. And how else
was it integrated during the day?
JULIAN: As with movement, there was a separate time where we focused on just
doing Orff Schulwerk primarily through the voice, but also I can well relate in
those course there weren't so many instrumental pieces. I remember playing in Level
III, some of the greatest hits of the instrumental repertoire from the volumes and
things, but the majority of what we did began with some sort of song, or began with a
rhythm that was... helped us learn the song, so the thing that everyone did in the
experience was sing something and then we added instrumental parts to that, or we
added movement, so there was considerably more singing than, for instance, even in
my Level III now. So I think, I go back and forth and from year to year it might be
more like that.
JS: Do you think that was the norm in all courses, that much singing, or do you think
it varies from course to course?
JULIAN: In my memory, again, I haven't really visited other courses, other than to
hear from people who went to those other courses, from the repertoire that's published
and the kinds of lessons that people were promoting as Orff Schulwerk in the '80s and
the beginning of the '90s, it seems obvious that most of what we did was songs
accompanied by instruments. Fewer of the Isabel Carley sort of recorder tune with
instruments or recorder tune with drums or just the purely instrumental piece, like a
Shirley McRae Playtime book, or something like that. Those seem to be the not so
representative of Orff Schulwerk as the not doing something vocally and adding
other instruments.
JS: When you took the teacher education courses, do you remember preferring some
activities over others in your levels classes? If so, which ones?
JULIAN: No. Well, perhaps. The thing I enjoyed the most is, because it turned out
thats something I found doing, is the orchestration and arranging, so while some
people were stressing over those assignments, that was really the thing I just loved to
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do. As far as the inactive parts of it, I really enjoyed all of it, because after the first
year, when I was just floored by the whole thingthat swept off your feet in Level I
feelingI really was watching so carefully, how it was taught, that it didn't really
matter what we were being asked to do, because my brain was in those places and it
was engaging, and like, Isnt this amazing, how they're getting from here to here,
getting us to do this, so I really enjoyed everything in that sense.
Interestingly, the thing that I remember becoming most satiated with my Level III
was the... Now we're going to sing this song and we're going to clap a rhythm and
then transfer it to this instrument. So it was the singing of the songs and adding this
part and adding this part and this part, you have enough of the culminating
experience, because we didn't always go on to improvising or creating for ourselves.
And many of those models were intended to illustrate what we were supposed to do
for our assignments thenthe illustration. So, I was always interested in that, but the
going through the motions of singing a song, adding this part, adding this part, and
this part, I remember was the part that I had seen so much of that I was thrilled to do
something different. Like [teacher name] would do something that is not that, or
when [teacher name] would teach us an instrumental, you could see that she's going
about this almost the same way but not quite, because there are no limits to hang on
to. So that again, pedagogically, became a musical example, and musically was
difference, and I think that's reflected in my own even today, going back and forth
between how much time in my levels courses is spent in singing a song and modeling
how to teach the bass part and modeling how to add an ostinato. I do what I think I
need to do to enable them to do that successfully, but I try not to do too much of that,
just because I remember that feeling in my Level III. That's the big ones. Id seen
enough.
JS: I think a lot of students get to that point, where they say, Were okay. We get it
already. I think that happens a lot.
JULIAN: In fact the challenge of Level III students is that you have to do that with all
these different chords and everything in order to illustrate how the chords are taught
differently, or how that changes how you might teach things. The process itself is
kind of...
JS: Okay, change of direction here, for a minute. Alright, well let's talk about your
experiences with teaching children, for a couple of minutes. When you teach children,
what are your favorite activities to teach and why?
JULIAN: (Laughter) Oh, it depends on the age of the kids.
JS: Okay. So talk about it.

186
JULIAN: With the fourth graders, I love doing recorder, because the hot shot kids
who have been paying attention all along are so excited to have a new something to
do, and they just take off on it. And the kids who have been struggling or were
inattentive in second grade but now have a little longer attention span get to go back
and start over again with one note and two notes and simple rhythms, and you get to
see them actually feel successful sometimes about, Oh, I love music class now,
because I can play this recorder and I can take it home and practice it myself.
But I love kindergarten. I love kindergarten dancing to recorded music and scarves
and Wee Willie Winkie and puppets, and I love watching them become so excited
about the littlest thing that you can toss out and even That's sort of my downfall
sometimes as a pedagogue is, we have so much fun playing that I have to keep
reminding myself, Keep going, remember this is supposed to be about beat, or its
supposed to be... You never have called their attention to actually what contours
they're making with their voices. You have to get back to the educating part, because
its so fun.
And I love in second and third grade, when their brains are starting to work and that,
the solfge that they have been doing by rote and the little patterns theyve been
doing, the plunking they've been doing on the xylophones begins to turn into, I can
make a melody myself that sounds like a tune, and I'm not just following Mr. Julian's
instructions. I like playing the xylophone because I can make my own tune. I like
sharing it with my neighbor and its...you know...
By fifth grade when they... When we have people who are talented enough in each of
the media that, as an ensemble, we can make things that feel rewarding to all of them,
even if its not their strength, and in many casesthe best cases anyway, you know
by April or May in 5th grade, things that seem pretty powerful, were pretty fulfilling
to them, to me, to overseeing their trajectory arrive there. I don't... I can't... I like all
those things about being an elementary school teacher. I dont think I could pick one.
JS: That's great. That's alright, you don't have to pick one. Do you have a least
favorite thing that you teach to children, and why? Is there something you...enjoy
less?
JULIAN: No. Because anything that I don't like to do, I don't do.
JS: (Laughter)
JULIAN: And if I feel obligated to do it, I do it just enough that if anybody says, Did
you do that? I'd say, Yep, and wed go on. And if it doesn't seem meaningful, I
don't beat them over the head with it. And I would say the thing, I'm trying to think of
an answer to the question, because there are things I don't do that are probably
commonly part of general music curriculum, like teach instruments of the orchestra. I
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don't do that. If we are going to a concert and we see a bunch of different instruments,
we come back and we talk about it. Or if I want to do a recording and we've moved to
it and then we talk about, Well how did you know it was time for this? Oh, I heard
that instrument, oh that's the horn, so we do that...
JS: So it's more discovery.
JULIAN: I don't do some of those standard things that probably are in curriculum that
I can't, unless I can make it organic, I just don't do it. And the thing... I won't say I
don't like doing it, but the thing that I'm most undecided about doing and therefore,
for a couple of years I decided, Okay, I should do more of it or I should do less of it
is the whole notation, especially staff notation and how much time I spend being as
careful about that in the curriculum as I am about other things, and how much, there
will be periods where I think, You know this is just too much time spent for not as
much return, by 5th grade they'll be able to figure it out. So I don't do it. It's not that
I don't like doing it, I'm not sure... Deciding its relative value among all the other
things we do is my ongoing wishy-washiness. (Laughter) Everything else I'm... I feel
pretty confident about. We need to do this, we need to do this, we need to do this, and
let me just...
JS: Great. Describe how you incorporate singing into your teaching with children.
JULIAN: Well, its one of the primary media we use for getting music into them. So,
I use it a lot. I use it... and knowing that, I was fortunately brainwashed early enough
in my career into the, and just as in teaching recorder or anything else, if you want
them to be successful, you have to teach them how, and so while some layer of my
curriculum involves teaching songs or melodies, either for their own growth or
because of their socialization, as something, as a model for improvisation or to
illustrate musical concepts, I teach songs for that reason. And there's the underlying
strand of the curriculum that is, and therefore vocally what do you have to teach them
to do to be successful singing those songs, or to be able to sing the song comfortably
enough that they really get what the song is about, and that then goes all the way from
all the kinds of, and this is where Orff Schulwerk is so helpful, all the things you do
to explore, all the... to exercise their voice, from the first time you have them, to make
as many different sounds as possible, and you can classify those sounds and to name
them as singing or not singing and to exercise the range of their voice so they're not
stuck in their speaking voice range or in the range of the songs that they can sang
from the radio. So that's all pretty much built in as we go to the times when we start
being more conscious of our posture and how we are starting to sit with tall backs in
kindergarten.
So I would say that's a big chunk of my thinking, although having taught for however
many years that its been now, its not something I have to work at much, because its
sort of an organic part of the process, and you know, culminating in... This is at this
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school I have a 5th grade choir, we call it, which is basically all the fifth graders come
to music at the same time, but because we call it choir, they're willing to be subjected
to more of the things that are just vocal. So we have a period a week where, what we
do is primarily about singing. And that to me is the culminating part of that strand of,
how successful have they been getting that, and they use only their voice to have a
musical experience and go, Yeah the same they do when they're playing the heck
out of the drums, you know we just sort of... To a fifth grader that's so immediately
reinforcing. It takes more curriculum and more pedagogy and more thought to the
teaching to get them to feel the same way about a vocal experience. So knowing that,
I guess I get lots of teaching of singing.
JS: When you choose repertoire or when you choose to incorporate the voice, I mean
both of those things, on what do you base the decisions... How do you choose the
music that you're going to use, and how do you choose... When do you say, Okay
we're going to get to this place by singing first? How do you make that decision?
JULIAN: That's interesting. I guess all the repertoire I choose, whether its singing or
not, most often is determined by some pitch and rhythm sequence of experiences that
I want them to have, or by some other musical concept: form, phrasing or meter or
whatever, that I want them to experience. So any song I choose to teach them is put
through that filter. What will be learned from singing this? And then it has to pass
the okay of 75 songs that could illustrate triple meter or 75,000 songs that could
illustrate triple meter, while we're familiar with these pitches and these rhythms.
Which of these can I make meaningful to them in October of third grade? And so then
I look at texts and then which of these can I successfully get them to do based on the
skills where they are now? So I might have to look at range and how the melody
moves and how that's combined with what structure is obvious. What will they be
able to hang onto immediately? What will I have to coach them to be able to do?
What new thing can we bring to consciousness about this song? So in third grade we
start, because we're doing things with more rhythm to them, we begin singing songs
that are more tongue twistery that are about vocal articulation rather than making
musical phrases. In second grade we're trying to get them to sing in unison and begin
and end and move along together, and by third grade we're trying to get them to feel
comfortable singing with a little more energy. So, and I choose songs that have texts
that exercise their vocal articulation muscles while we're doing things with sixteenth
notes. Now you can do that with lines and colors too, but I would think about songs
and say, What can be learned from singing this song, that they're ready to
encounter?
JS: Okay, great.
JS: What are some of the examples of music the children singing in class? Folk
songs? What kind of... I don't think you use those Italian art songs too often.
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JULIAN: I do not. I have not taught 24 Italian Songs and Arias or any of the...
JS: That's good. (Laughter) So, what do you teach?
JULIAN: We do lots of things, I won't say we do about anything because there are
things Im sure, like 24 Italian Songs and Arias, we haven't done. In kindergarten, we
sing chanted poems and Rain, Rain Go Away. We also sing diatonic songs that
move stepwise in a limited range. Lou, Lou, Skip to My Lou, but traditional folk
song material.
We, every now and then, sing a composed song that's by a grownup musician who's
written a song that they think the kids will like, and often I find those, the classroom
teachers have those. They say, The kids really like this song about whatever it is,
the weather or something. And so sometimes those are included. I would say,
predominately we use traditional material from some culture and predominately its
still North American, Anglo culture, although maybe not so much Anglo. There's
Hispanic American, African American songs included, but predominately that. By
fifth grade we're doing, I mean by third and fourth grade we're doing traditional
canons and also by third grade and even the end of second grade they're able to take
texts and create songs.
JS: So they write their own melodies.
JULIAN: Yes, and often in conjunction with working it out on the xylophone, but
then, Okay, now you and your partner have to teach it to each other and be able to
sing it and play it. One of you sings it and one of you plays it. So, sometimes created
songs. And we have a regular morning meeting on Monday where we meet together
and we always start with a song, so we have these...
JS: A meeting with the teachers?
JULIAN: No, the whole school meets in the auditorium, K through 5 for 20 minutes
on Monday morning and we give the announcements and all that and whatever. But,
we always start with a song. There are these 25 or so, all-school songs, America the
Beautiful and [our school] alma matter and You Are My Sunshinea wide range
of whatever seems like it would be fun to sing around this time of year, that I teach to
everyone, for no other purpose than, you sing and enjoy.
JS: And do you accompany those on the piano?
JULIAN: Usually, yes. Some of them are unaccompanied or are a call and response
or I play the guitar or have an accompanist, but mostly I just play the piano and we all
sing. Some sing along songs, and whenever I introduce a new one of those, we spend
5 minutes or so of every class or more with the littler kids * getting them to sing part
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of that song. And then by fifth grade, we're doing sort of choral octavo, published
repertoire or arrangements and things. Sometimes as we are doing part singing
canons, sometimes creating an ostinato part and then sing to add something to it that
isn't part of the song itself. I'm trying to think of other things and by fifth grade and
fourth grade too, sometimes we have four minutes left and we just watch a video,
Viva la Vida or whatever and they all sing along, and then the next time they come
back and they say, can we sing that again today? So we play and we sing two minutes
of that at the end of class or the beginning of class or something. Some of the songs,
they bring into the room from the radio or TV or movies, but that's a small part. And
then by, and particularly in the next few years, this is part of the curriculum *
Kindergarteners and 1st graders have an experience with French and so we * for
twenty minutes and in 2nd and 3rd grade its Japanese and 4th and 5th grade is
Spanish. They always have the Spanish * so now I'm beginning to incorporate songs
in other languages or regularly. And some of those are also Monday meeting songs.
Things that we do in Spanish or in Japanese for the morning meeting, but there are
now more of those that have become part of the curriculum that aren't the standard
North American sort of thing. Is that enough?
Great. Yes, that is wonderful.
JULIAN: Did I miss any category?
JS: I don't think so.
JS: Okay, some of the research I've read suggests that there are times where Orff
Schulwerk students just sing as you described, in choir, and other times when they
sing in combination with the other media... I'm trying to think what I'm talking about
here, what specific article I'm talking about. I'll get back to it in a minute. Is that the
case in your teaching, and I believe you've really already answered this Julian, and if
so, what are some examples of... You've already given me examples of how teaching
is taught by itself. You've already said that you do that in choir and your sing-a-longs
and what are some examples of how singing is taught in combination with other
media? And I think you've already addressed that. Do you want to add to it?
Anything?
JULIAN: Yeah, I mean I could give you some specific examples. In first grade, its
likely that we will be doing something about nighttime and we are going to sleep and
we sing Star Light, Star Bright, with two or pitches, and we might have someone
vocally improvise a chant to go with the last three words that say good night. And at
the same time we'd probably have someone going (singing) Ding or playing the
chime tree and adding a drone part of some sort as an accompaniment to the song. So
that's a little bit of everything.
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By 3rd grade, if we're doing Fa and we're doing it on the instruments, we might be
singing a song that kind of moves stepwise by Fa and we might actually be looking at
the solfge on the board, and we might sing the song just with solfge. I mean,
nothing fancy, just pretty much by rote. Sing the song with the words, can you
translate it to the solfge. The solfge, Great, can you translate it to the bars? and
then go figure out how to play that tune on the bars. Oh good. Most of you started on
G and that worked. Can you start it on C and figure out what notes are playing the
part of Do Re Mi Fa So and that? So the singing is just another medium for
experiencing pitch patterns. Its one of the various mediums they can translate back
and forth between barred instruments and voices or voices and hand signs, or voices
and notation. And I've probably already said this. There are times where the song
with some instruments are the pillars of a piece, in which is inserted something else
they've created, through a sort of traditional sort of way. And the song establishes the
theme and the character and the mode or the meter or whatever it is we are about that
day for the experience and then we use other media to explore, sometimes with voices
and sometimes with just other media. So the song serves as the model from which we
explore, often because its more immediate as the first time they're doing it to then
go to the instruments and playing those just to make something.
JS: So they learn it first through singing and then they can...
JULIAN: Right, so the intuitive imitation part is to get it in their voice and then from
that model, they can create something that has those same notes, that's in the same
meter, with movement, as theyre learning to create. And then all the way up to
singing vocal repertoire because it satisfies and its fun, and doing pieces with just
drums, I mean illustrating for them, then what's eventually going to happen in middle
school, which is in most cases, they're no longer going to be exposed to the general
music, or even if they are, they're asked to make elective choices. I mean, we'll all
find our thing, and Boys and girls, we can see that we can use all this together and
make this humongous, fabulous thing, but we can also make fabulous music with just
drums, just recorders and just our voices, and some of you will find one of those
things as being the thing you enjoy most. Some of you will join choir and some of
you will join band, and some of you will go into strings, but the effect of making
music that feels good to you, can happen in combinations or with just your voice, or
just your., or just your.
JS: Okay. That's great. This is kind of just a pedantic question. What proportion of
your teaching, would you say is devoted to singing? And I'm not looking for a
percentage, but is there a way to kind of estimate, using just words?
JULIAN: Yeah. And again, when you say, What proportion of your teaching, I
guess it's easy to estimate a percentage of time that they are in the room singing,
which I would say...
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JS: Cecilia Wang has done a lot of studies where she asked people to actually
estimate by percentage, and what they generally do is they say well, I spend 50% of
my time on singing and 50% of my time on moving and 50% on playing
instruments...
JULIAN: And I guess that's because it's a multimedia approach, they are probably
singing 35% and 60% of the time. With that said, there are some days, in fourth grade
and fifth-grade, when the whole half-hour, there may not be any singing. With the
little or kids, that's unlikely, up through second grade, maybe there are a few lessons
in second grade, where it's just instrumental or it's just movement, but there is singing
in almost every class, and some days, you may hear them singing 20 minutes out of
the 30 minutes and some days you might hear them 12 minutes out of 30 minutes, but
there is singing in almost every class.
JS: So would you say that proportion is maybe related to their age?
JULIAN: Yes. In the same way that as they get older, and the projects become more
sophisticated, you have to spend a little more time with each thing to really flesh out
what you know about it and what to do with it. So if it's a recorder piece and it's a
little sophisticated, they have to spend some time in their group, just working on the
recorder part, and that too, I've found... I think it's detracting, that's a footnote to come
back to about the training system, because that's something I'm try to figure out how
we administrate. The idea that it's always singing, saying, dancing, playing, by the
upper grades, either you have to keep everything so simplistic so they can do it all at
once, or if you try to do things that are at their level of sophistication, you cant do all
of those things at once because you cant do very sophisticated singing and
movement, and rhythm play all in a half hour. They can't process all of that once. So,
anyway
JS: No, that makes sense.
JULIAN: So how much singing we do, the actual minutes is probably about the same
in any grade, but how they experience it, whether it's some everyday in the lower
grades and more back-and-forth between the other media discreetly in the upper
grades. As far as how much of my actual curriculum, not pertaining to minutes is
singing involved, it's 100% involved. I mean there really isn't any concept we don't
encounter that I don't use singing as a medium for illustrating something. Except
instruments of the orchestra. You can see what I don't do that.
JS: You could sing a song about instruments of the orchestra, I guess.
JULIAN: And that's the songs that I probably don't do. I don't sing songs about
quarter notes. I don't sing songs about, (singing) These are the dynamic clefs that we
know. Louder and softer, ho, ho ho!
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[Laughter]
JS: Okay. Just a few more questions related to your teaching singing to children.
What activities, in general, do children seem to enjoy most when they are taught
through the Orff approach, and what activities they seem to enjoy least, and that may
again be related to their grade level, or
JULIAN: For me that's very age-specific question. And it also... I'm fortunate to be in
a situation now where I have a small enough student population that I know them so
much better than any students I've ever had before. I know each of them
individually...
JS: You've been there how long?
JULIAN: I've been there 10 years now, so by the time the kids get to be fourth and
fifth graders, I can go down the row and tell you who loves playing the recorder and
who puts up with playing recorder, and who likes singing and playing the recorder
pretty well, and who can't wait until we stop singing and playing, and don't ask to get
up and move, just give me a drum. So it's very kind of individual.
My general impression is the kindergarten age and first grade age, I have to
continually remind myself, do the drama, do the stories, do the play, whether were
singing, or playing the triangle or whatever it is, they'll do any of that as long as there
is drama, as long as it's a story, as long as it's about something.
By second and third grade, they love playing the instruments. Theyre in that concrete
operations where their brains can really sort things out, if they can physically see it
and enact it outside of their body, and singing doesn't do that as much for some of
them. Movement does it for some of them, but it can be a little squishy. And yet
having an external referent, an instrument of some sort to enact it on or with
sometimes feels clearer and therefore I think more rewarding. So the instrument
playing becomes I mean, 5th graders enjoy playing instruments too, but they only
play instruments for about 2 minutes without it turning into something, turning into a
story about the three bears, or about the princess is doing whatever and they play the
instruments a certain way.
In third grade we like to just figure out how these instruments work, in the same way
they seem to enjoy singing, and figuring out how to sing. But, for many of them thats
also the age when liking and disliking what we're singing kicks in. The biggest leap.
And so, many of them don't like singing if the song doesn't appeal to them, if it isn't
immediately connected to them, so knowing that, I have to work to somehow weave
some tale or go back in time and connect them to the songif it's a historical song.
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And then by fifth grade it really seems completely different. They love instruments,
and I guess if I came in and said, Today, for a half hour, you can do whatever you
want, most of them would get out instruments and start playing. Some of them
would say, Put on a recording so we can dance, but very few of them really dance
dance. They wiggle around for a while, you know, and then you run out of things to
do, but they can go at playing the instruments for quite a while. And I don't think
that's just because of anything I've taught them. That's just something they prefer.
And some of the love singing, but some of them would be fine if I never asked them
to do it. To me, that's part of that whole, in middle school they're going to start having
an affinity for one thing or another.
JS: Okay. So this plays off of what you just said. Do the children in the classes you
teach like to sing? Are they good at singing? That part, you may not have answered
yet. We have to check on Lena, she knows she's not supposed to go in there.
[Laughter]
[Off record discussion with the family dog.]
JS: So I guess you have already said, grade by grade, whether they like to sing. You
talked about that some, so are they good at singing? And why do you think that's
true?
JULIAN: Yes. Are they good at singing? I have this year, some of my most fulfilling
moments as a teacher with my fifth graders singing. They came into fifth grade being
a very diverse class in their abilities, and to the point that we were wondering, Okay
how are we going to be able to do the fifth grade play this year? Do we need to pick
something with not so much singing in it, or limit the amount of singing? And, by
magic, or pedagogy, or luck, they took to choir this year like it was a birthday cake
and ice cream. They worked so hard and they were so excited to sing by the end of
the year and partly, it was, we chose some really effective repertoire for them to sing,
and the combination of things was powerful. It was one of those years when, it would
be time to go and they would say, But we didn't get to this, can we sing this? And
we would sing it. And, if you step back and listen to the recording, it's not
outstanding, but my goodness, they sang with such passion and they cared so much
about the accuracy that, what more can I ask? And that's not always the case.
So to me, I guess I always keep my eye on that, because I'm a music teacher, in the
biggest sense. Singing is part of that, and I give them every tool I can to make singing
be one of the ways they can have that experience in music. But the bigger picture is
not just how well they sing, but, Do they sing well enough to realize what music
feels like when it really works? Sometimes, by fifth grade I more successful, and Im
always amazed at how well my third-graders sing, and then those third-graders don't
always turn out to be the best singing fifth-graders. So it does have to do with
curriculum, and it does have to do with choices I make along the way, and it does
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have to do with who they are as individuals, and as a class to some extent. It has to do
with classes that fragment more, and classes that really have come together.
So they sing pretty well. I would say it by sort of normal curricular standards, you
know, of you go around my circle of first graders and ask them to sing back patterns,
96% of them are going to be able to sing back, you know, the basic 25 three-note
patterns on a neutral syllable and match pitch. I mean that's what my curriculum says
were supposed to do, so that seems successful. Sometimes in second grade when we
are working on unison singing, and by the end of the year, I think, This just doesn't
sound very good, and it's the same first graders who could do what that benchmark
was fabulously, and then maybe in third grade it comes back. It's all part, I guess, the
puzzle of anything that makes teaching interesting. There's no formula. Youve got to
be there every day. You got to show up and say, Okay what do we do now? What's
missing? What's working? Therefore, next
JS: Okay. Let's talk about your experiences with teaching Orff Schulwerk to adults
for a few minutes, and just a few questions about this. Some are the same questions I
asked about children, and the answers may be the same too, but we'll see. How do
you incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your levels courses? And you
teach Level III here at [university name].
JULIAN: I teach Level III, which I guess, feels different Hmm. Interesting I
guess I feel like I don't really teach singing. I assume that's a skill they bring with
them, and in fact, by Level III, I don't even feel like so much of the Level III
curriculum is about modeling how to teach singing. Thats Maybe that shouldn't be
the case I know when I teach Level I, I model much more, the things we do with
our voice as part of the Orff Schulwerk process that I want them to go out and do
what their kids in order to teach singing. But there isn't a conscious level of my Level
III curriculum that's about, where Im modeling how to pedagogically, things about
singing, but I...
JS: Because you feel they've already gotten that.
JULIAN: I guess I assume, and maybe that's wrong. That's where those of us that had
[teacher name] for an hour a day all the way through Level III, there was something
to observe about the teaching about vocal pedagogy, which now I just use it as a,
Sing this. And I don't so much answer the questions about how I would get my kids
to sing this, other than how would I get them to sing this song, what would be my
lesson plan, which grades do I teach first, do I echo, do I notate. So, maybe that, but
not so much the act of singing. I just take it as an assumption, and I go from there.
And I would say, as with my fourth and fifth graders, there are 25 or 30 minute
segments that are just about drumming, or just about playing and then you know, for
A, B, C, D that morning, B and D might have singing in it, or maybe just C or maybe
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A, B, and C might have it. So it's not something we do in every activity and it's not
something we do a particular percentage of the time. It depends on what the guideline
says I'm supposed to be doing that day, whether I can illustrate that with singing in a
way that I can imagine doing it with kids. So that's the biggest, maybe vaguest part of
it, is that I assume that any song I teach them, both the material and the way I present
it to them, the way I model presenting it to them, is the way I would approach it with
my students, to get them to be successful singing. So for me that means, not modeling
for the 700th time, Echo after me, but modeling as many different rote teaching
procedures as I can, different combinations of rote and note and things like that, so
that I'm still illustrating how to get kids to learn a song successfully, as clearly as we
illustrate how to teach body percussion, how to get kids to play hand drums
successfully. Did that make sense?
JS: So if I get really concrete about it, well that's an expression, no, not what
percentage, but what are some examples of the music that adults in your levels
courses sing? So in other words, you probably sing some canons and rounds.
JULIAN: Yes, we do. And it changes, sort of, over the course of the... maybe not.
Initially were kind of reviewing and connecting back to Level II, to more pentatonic
or diatonic or hexatonic songs with accompaniments, or song settings. Hexatonic
canons, and canons in whatever mode it is that we're doing, or songs in that mode
accompanied by a drone that we can improvise over. Or, songs that establish a kind of
way of making a musical phrase that were going to use. So, chanted sort of songs that
then we improvise without a metric structure, or songs in irregular phrase lengths that
we can move to and then create something else with the irregular phrases. I forgot the
question.
JS: You're answering it really well. Examples of songs that you teach.
JULIAN: Yeah. By the end, there are fewer and fewer of those sort of traditional
songs, and either songs, what I tell them aren't really songs, but a tune where I've
added a text to it, because that's the most immediate way to communicate that tune,
but that may then turn into a purely instrumental piece. We don't sing...
JS: So sometimes it's a This comes up over and over. Sometimes it's a vehicle to
get to the instruments. (A Yes, yes.) We use it as a tool.
JULIAN: Yes. In the same way, as the third graders sing a song, and then transfer it
to the instruments, and sometimes enjoyed just playing it. They don't even care if they
sing the song, but it's the vehicle to transfer to another medium. And fewer and fewer,
because by Level III, we end up doing some of the bigger pieces out of the volumes,
and many of those, I don't... I would never do the vocal pieces that are in the volumes.
JS: They're instrumental pieces.

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JULIAN: Sometimes we use our voice to learn those pieces, but they're not, there's
not so much singing involved in those, and so, consequently, that's when I think,
Okay, so this day can't just be about playing xylophones, and we start with a canon
or a song in a mixed meter, and we just do that and do a little dance to it, and then we
move that toothat theme with the instruments.
JS: Okay. Great.
JULIAN: It kind of flips on me, towards the end of Level III, as the music we can
make, and some of the things we used to illustrate, become more sophisticated.
JS: When you are teaching adults in levels courses, what are your expectations for the
kinds of musical knowledge and skills a music educators should already have when
they begin class? What should they come to you already knowing?
JULIAN: Well, this is probably the big question, especially if were going from
training to education, we're changing the name, and now that it's mostly in
graduate programs, this is kind of a touchy subject. The nature of the Orff Schulwerk
approach is, we can take them wherever they are, and by the end of two weeks, I can
have them... have some fabulous experiences and take home more tools than they had
when they came. However, as far as, if they were my daughter's teacher, what would I
want them to know before they became so they could get the most out of this two
weeks, and go back and be a really successful teacher? Then thats a different thing,
and the thing is, we don't have a filter for that. I would hope, and again over 28 years,
having also made my attempts at teaching undergraduate methods, I know the reality
of what they do bring, and what they have had as previous experience, and again
that's where I feel particularly grateful for the experiences I have had, because many
of them have had nothing approximating what I brought, and therefore interpreted as
being what Orff Schulwerk layers on top of that. What I find is that many of them
have never understood anything like that.
It would be nice if you could assume that people with undergraduate degrees in music
education had at least sung some songs in each of the modes, so that it wasn't a
foreign concept. It would be nice if their ability to translate the sound they hear to
solfge or rhythmic notation or staff notation was at the same level as my fourth
graders, and in some cases it's not. And so those are the things I would hope they
would bring.
The thing that I think is pretty critical for what they get out of it, not that they can't be
successful, because again, we can get them through the two weeks, no matter who
they are. The thing that seems to influence what light bulbs or how many times I look
at them and see them going, Ooh, Ooh! I get that! during the two weeks, is, are the
people who have had some significant experience teaching in a thoughtful,
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pedagogical way. So again, students who have come right out of their undergraduate
and taught for a year, and their district says, You should do Orff Schulwerk, and
then they go to Level I and Level II, and theyre in Level III, and they've really only
taught 3 years. They haven't taught long enough in one place even to implement the
stuff from Level II, let alone have any real understanding of the implications of things
that we're doing in Level III. So it seems a little theoretical, it all seems very
theoretical, I'm sure to them. And it's great that we put the model out there, but
students who get the most out of the two weeks seem to be people who have some
general facility in both aural skills and notation skills, rather than simply being a
musician whos played and doesnt get the whole picture. People who have some
thoughtful pedagogical experience teaching a variety of students and trying to solve
pedagogical problems themselves, which then makes them better able to recognize
successful pedagogy when they see it. And people who, I think have had some in-
depth musical experience of their own, who have had at some point over their
previous experience, again had the experience of playing the piano really well, of
giving a voice recital or singing in a choir and a very high level, or something, so that
they recognize the quality of musical experience that Orff Schulwerk can aspire to
teach.
JS: That's such a good point.
JULIAN: And if the people who, at the end of two weeks or the two weeks for 3
years, you know, that seem most like, Now you're ready to go be a successful
teacher, are the people who have brought those 3 things. Some theoretical, general,
aural understanding, and they have enough experience to think thoughtfully about
pedagogy and they have enough musicianship themselves, to recognize what a real
musical experience is.
JS: Okay. Good. In your experience with teaching adults, do you find that music
educators' knowledge and skills have improved over the last say, 10 years, or do you
think they've gotten worse, and why you think that might be so? Do you think they've
changed it all over, well even over your 20 years of teaching Orff Schulwerk?
JULIAN: I'll give you the short answer first, which is, they seem less skilled and less
prepared. The caveat is, I'm now teaching Level III, so I'm teaching things that
require more of those tools to already be there, or would make them more successful
if they already have them. So perhaps I'm observing things that I wouldn't have
observed when I was teaching Level II or Level I. I'm also more aware of how
important all these things are, so again my perspective may be what's influencing part
of my answer. I'm older. All of these things in me that have become such a natural
part of me that it's hard to imagine, or remember being a teacher when I didn't have
those skills. So there's a bigger gap between what I bring to it and what they bring to
it, or there would have been 20 years ago. So all of that might be influencing my
answer.
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The other thing is, depending on the program, and we've seen each of the programs
I'm teaching evolve over time, and the kind of students we attract. So 15 years ago, in
a program where we had people coming from all over the country, and in fact, all
over the world, the people who came were really dedicated, high-energy, I want to
get this and do it well, and they brought a lot with them. Some of them traveling
from Japan to study for two weeks somewhere is not coming because, I want to
move up a notch on the pay scale. So, as courses evolve, and now we have people
who are coming because the district says they should We hire Orff teachers and
we see you started and you should go back and get your Or, I need two more
credits to move up on the pay scale. Those people are not necessarily bringing the
same things to your class as previously, and in the courses I teach in the shift has
happened both ways. For some it's gone from more diversity and more high-powered
ideas circulating in the room to a little more provincial, a little more status quo, like
the average music teacher. In another course it's kind of gone the opposite way. A lot
of very local people who were half-way decent music teachers and they wanted to do
a little better and we help them do a little better. There are more people coming
because they're interested in learning particular things about Orff Schulwerk, and they
bring a different motivation and set of skills.
JS: Based on your experience as an Orff teacher educator, what do you think are the
primary reasons that music educators enroll in an Orff course? You can just list some
of you want. I mean you just mentioned that some school districts want to hire Orff
teachers, so maybe they come because they have to.
JULIAN: Yes. And truthfully, I've been studying this question ever since I started,
because of course when you're young, you assume everyone is doing it for the same
reason. Everyone is doing it because they have this musicianship that they want to be
able to share with kids, and we want to find the most vital, appropriate, exciting,
engaging ways to do it, and that's why I came to Orff Schulwerk. I already had been
trained to teach children. I had already been trained as a musician, and this was
unlocking all sorts of little magical tools for me to meet my goals that I was
struggling with, trying to do it intuitively, and now I was doing it consciously. But
they don't all come for that. Out of a class of 17, two or three, you can point out,
Now there is someone who is here like I was.
There are other people who, as I said, the sort of more opposite end of the spectrum,
those people who have been hired in the district, and everyone in this district has Orff
training, and you agree when you get hired that you will do it. And some of them
come and are fascinated and add this to their bag of tricks and some come and, even
by Level III, you can kind of tell the 1 or 2 each year, who are, You know, this has
kind of gone past anything I'm ever really planning to do with my kids, because this
isn't, like who I am as a teacher. But, you know, they've been asked to complete the
training, and they do.
200
And there are people who are doing it as part of the graduate program, because
perhaps they were attracted to Orff Schulwerk in the Level 1 whoosh of ooh, and
again they may follow that trajectory all the way to the end, and integrate that as part
of their teaching. And others may pick and choose bits and pieces of it.
I think there are a few people who take it just for the credit, at least at the Level I. By
Level III, they have some commitment to finish, whether it's extrinsic: I have to get
his degree done. Or intrinsic of: This is the way I teach and this suits me beautifully
as a form of music education. But yeah, I think the question is different for Level I,
because then I think you're going to see a huge spectrum, including people who are
simply there out of curiosity, including people who have taught for 20 years. Yea,
Ive been to some Orff workshops, and I've really run out of things to do, I'll see what
this is like. Which I mean, it's always fun for me to value people who have been
teaching for 25 years that are now willing to go out and do something brand-new. It's
always fun to have those people in class. Because they do bring lots of experience and
lots of fabulous questions, and perspective, that when they offer them, everyone in the
class listens.
JS: Typically, what are the adult students favorite activities? And what are their least
favorite activities? Or does it vary?
JULIAN: I'm sure it varies, I don't poll them about it, other than looking in their eyes
every 10 minutes to see, How is it going, are we bored yet, do we need to move on
or are we excited? And I think it depends over the course of the two weeks. There
are many mornings when I think they are tired and they've had they're so full of
Orff Schulwerk that they love coming in, singing a canon by rote. That feels
refreshing. I didn't have to do a group project. I didn't have to make any decisions. I
didn't have to worry about was in the right key. I just sang the song. I think that the
thing and again, I think it depends on the student. The ones who I think are most
likely to take things to heart and become Orff Schulwerk teachers, lovewhen we
do, finally get to Level III and we give them a more open-ended projectthat they
get to spend 20 minutes with a group of three or four like-minded people and create
something, regardless of the medium. They seemjust as much as the kids though
they love playing the instruments, and again that's probably the thing they have the
least opportunity to do. To play an instrumental ensemble using these particular
sounds is pretty cool stuff.
JS: And it's a challenge. They like to be challenged.
JULIAN: It's very fulfilling. And many of them are comfortable, competent singers,
so that's not so much the new thing, and the ones who aren't comfortable, competent
singers don't so much enjoy when we start doing more sophisticated things. And that's
part of the pedagogy of the levels too, is judging, Okay I kind of always do this
activity, every year but, is this a year I can do it any more sophisticated level vocally,
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because people are more comfortable singing, or is this one where we have to
approach it a little more playfully, and kind of make them at ease so that the vocal
part of it can feel successful? Whereas with instrument playing, that's not so much
the case. They seem willing to take on the challenge and again, were back to, its an
external thing. One of my recorder teacher always said, You know the thing about
playing an instrument is, you can always blame the instrument. Oh, the pads stuck
or, you know, but when you're singing, it's you. And so managing that in adult
learners is another one of the parts of your brain thats continually engaged.
in your levels courses, and which activities do you believe they resist most?
JULIAN: No. Well, I've seen the same sorts of boredom from repetition that I know I
began to sense in Level III. Okay, I get the idea, now are doing the same procedure,
it just has different chords or different modes or whatever. And so, I work to counter
that in my curriculum, because there are certain things that I do, and certain activities
seem to illustrate them and we use them year after year, some of them. You know,
they're grown-ups and if they have the kind of sit there and go through the motions
for 17 minutes, they may not be completely excited or enthralled but, they do it. I
think it's different now to that I'm an old person and a lot of them are 27.
JS: It's kind of nice isn't it?
JULIAN: Right. Because I don't think they're going to raise their hand, unlike my
third-graders, who will say, Mr. [Julian], we already did this. I'm tired of that, can
we move on? Why do we have to sing again? Why do we have to play these again?
[Laughter] They're [the adults are] polite. They don't muck up the works or throw a
fit, because were singing or playing the drums were moving or doing a different
project, but you can sense how engaged they are in it and that helps you decide,
Okay, so tomorrow I gotta approach this a little more this way or that way because
they're kind of getting tired of it. But I've not had people who say, Let's not do
that.
I think we as a faculty talk about that I think, students have the most, some positive
and some very negative experiences with just the whole arranging or orchestration,
and again that to me has changed, not because Ive changed my valuing of that
experience, and again, maybe because I love doing it and it seems obvious to me, I
love teaching it, I think I'm pretty good at helping them see easy little ways to make
orchestration work, but that requires bringing some skills with you that I don't have
time to teach them in two weeks. And as Ive seen what they bring with them in terms
of just basic musicianship skills, not seeing as much as before, that part of the course
seems more frustrating to me. And I don't think, I think many of them completely
dont enjoy that at all. And we as a faculty then, are balancing, Well, so how
important is it? Do you keep forcing them to do it if it's not fulfilling? Which is not
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always the reason to change curriculum anymore than when the third-graders whine
about something. We don't say, Okay well we won't do things in diatonic any more.
Well just stick with pentatonic. But that's probably the one thing for many of them
is the negative experience.
JS: That concludes my questions, so do you have anything you want to add to this
conversation?
JULIAN: No, I think we probably talked as much as anyone needs to hear me talk.
JS: You gave me some really wonderful answers.
JULIAN: Very fascinating questions. I think it would be interesting at some point

when this is all done, to have access to these questions, discussed as Orff Schulwerk
faculty.
JS: Oh thank you. Okay.
JULIAN: Because I hear myself saying things that I know I think and believe that I've
ever said to anyone else, or never explained so clearly, in fact even put into words
like they did during this opportunity, because we never talk about these things.
JS: We don't have time to talk about philosophy a lot of times, or our beliefs.
JULIAN: Especially nowadays in these courses, and again talk about this with other
Orff Schulwerk teachers, in the days when, I'll use this is an example, it's [teacher
name] and [another teacher name], who were neighbors and both here and lived in
town, [another teacher name], who lived down the road, they could talk all year and
they went out to lunch, and so when they arrive at these two weeks in the summer, it
had to look pretty different then to those of us who e-mail some during the year and
then the month before the course e-mail frantically, and then arrive here and are so
busy teaching that we don't really have time to talk about anything.
JS: Thank you Julian. I really appreciate it.

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Appendix D
Transcript of Interview with Kelly
JS: We are recording. And I'm here via Skype with Kelly who is I believe, where are
you Kelly, what city?
KELLY: [City name].
JS: She's in [another city], and I'm in Dallas, and I can see Kelly but she can't see me
because I don't have my camera hooked up. But anyway today is Thursday, August 6,
and we're going to talk a little bit about Orff Schulwerk, and about singing too, Kelly.
So I'm going to start with a few questions, and the first question is... Well first I want
to ask you this, how many years you taught children?
KELLY: Let me do a little quick math, there is a break in the middle. But see, yes.
JS: Children.
KELLY: Children. Nine years on the front end, and four years, so 13 total.
JS: 13, okay. And how many years have you taught adults, including your
apprenticeship?
KELLY: Including the apprenticeship, it would be seven years.
JS: Okay. All right, and you do both workshops and levels training, or now, we are
calling them teacher education courses. So I would like to start with this question
Kelly. What are your earliest memories of singing, maybe with your parents or
Sunday School, or wherever you were when you were a little bitty child.
KELLY: Earliest memories of singing would include my dad, and he was a much
more avid singer than my mom, and do you mean listening to singing or me actually
singing?
JS: Both.
KELLY: Both. Okay. So that would be two parts. One was listening to my dad, who
was a big fan of music of all kinds and had a really nice stereo and would sit in the
living room and listen to his record albums. And he had this Lawrence Welk baton
and he would conduct and it was just quite a production, but he was big into musicals
and all kinds of things, and in the church choir.
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And then my, just personal earliest memories of singing, I don't remember much
before elementary school started, but I remember enjoying it in elementary school,
and then, at a certain point, after I'd started taking piano lessons, being a little bit
bored because I kind of knew what she was doingkind of a know-it-all. I always
just kind of enjoyed it. And yeah, I have a few faint recollections of specific songs
that we sang.
JS: What were those songs?
KELLY: Well, there was one about, it was a Christmas song and there was a little
part like an ostinato part that was very high about the cherry on top, and that's all I
can tell you about that song, but it was something that I really enjoyed, it was
something that I had to work at and, I enjoyed the challenge of trying to sing that part.
And I really enjoy their music teacher and working with her. She was young and
pretty and that was just a really fun time.
JS: Did you have the same elementary music teacher all the way through?
KELLY: No. I'm trying to remember the person that we had when I was in the
primary grades, and I don't remember her. Wasn't it until like 4th or 5th and 6th grade
that I remember. Oh, I can see her and, oh, and she married the principal at our
school, and her name was [name], yes! And I don't remember her maiden name, but
yeah. I remember when instrumental music started, we had two different teachers and
that's where really started, you know, kicking in, I guess.
JS: What grade did instrumental music start?
KELLY: It started in fifth grade.
JS: And what did you play?
KELLY: French horn.
JS: Okay. Did you continue having general music even while you had, I guess it was
band?
KELLY: Yes. When I was in sixth grade, we, my general music teacher was
somebody that I took Level I with years and years later. It was her first year teaching,
and this I can remember vividly, I just remember her. She was an excellent piano
player and had long gorgeous dark hair, and again, it was at a point where I had been
playing in band for a couple of years and taking piano lessons, so there wasn't a lot
that was new, but we used textbooks quite a bit and rhythm instruments. Very
different from the way that I teach kids now. I remember I always enjoyed that time.
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JS: Okay. Tell me about other experiences of singing that you remember in school, all
the way from kindergarten through high school, in church or in any other community
groups, just throughout your schooling. In fact go all the way through college, if you
would.
KELLY: Sure. In junior high, I was involved in orchestra, and, I'm not sure if it's
relevant to the whole thing but singing in terms of a formal setting kind of got put on
hold for a little while, but I was involved in music, at least in school. And then in high
school, I started singing in our church choir and that was really special because it was
something that I did with my dad, who was in the church choir, and then my aunt and
my grandmother were also in the choir. Yeah, it was really fun, and the music teacher
I had with the long dark hair, was our choir director and our organist, later on. There
was one time in high school where I had had some surgery, just a little bit of plastic
surgery done, and it was right at Christmas time, and I really wanted to sing on
Christmas Eve, because that was just a very big deal, but I was kind of still in a lot of
pain and probably shouldn't have been up there anyway, but I really, really wanted to
sing, so I remember my aunt and my grandmother coming in sitting with me, at that
service, just to kind of be there for support, and they were both very strong altos, so
they kind of helped me through that service. They didn't tell me they were coming,
they just came and sat down, and we sang together, and I haven't thought about that in
a really long time. But yeah, it was just really a special time and something we shared
and that Christmas Eve tradition, we kind of went through the same routine every
year. We had dinner and everybody would kind of fall asleep for a couple of hours
and then we would go to the midnight service, so that was a lot of fun.
JS: What kind of music did you sing in the church choir?
KELLY: Mostly traditional Episcopal hymns, in that, I'm kind of mixing two
different directors. I can tell you more specifics about the music a little bit later on.
When we were in high school, I remember we were doing, Christmas is the one that's
really standing out. At that point we had a fairly full choir, so we were singing things
in four parts and I kind of felt like I was going along for the ride, because that wasn't
necessarily my strength, at that point. I was doing more French horn playing in that
kind of stuff, but I always just enjoyed the singing.
Later on, after [teacher name] had been there for a few years, we kind of had to scale
back a little bit and we did more two-part music, just because we didn't have the
numbers to support doing all four parts. My last semester of high school, I decided, I
guess I must've had an open class period or something, and instead of doing study
hall, I decided to audition for our school choir, and it was kind of on a whim that I did
that, but they went ahead and took me and so for a semester, I got to be in that setting.
I had to work at it. It didn't come easy at first, but I think the director kindly put me
next to a friend of mine who was also an alto, and she kind of helped me through it a
little bit. I was there for their spring contest, and I'm trying to remember the music
206
that we sang for that. We had to have it memorized and there was an arrangement of a
song called Jesus is Love, which, looking back on that, I'm kind of surprised that's
something that we sang, but it was very powerful. I remember the challenge in there
was that everything had to be memorized for the contest. That was an additional
challenge for me.
JS: What do you remember about the choir teacher, in your senior year in high
school, and about the teaching that took place in these classes? Did you do warm-
ups? Did you do drills? Sight-reading and those kinds of things?
KELLY: Yes. There were warm-ups, and I think, if I remember correctly, they were
not led by him. I think our accompanist, who may have kind of started that process.
JS: That's okay, so the accompanist took part also.
KELLY: Yeah, she also taught theory and I had been in both her beginning and
advanced theory classes, so I think some of this may be kind of melding together. I'm
trying to remember specifically if there was kind of a routine, or if we just... I'm sorry
Julie, I just don't remember.
JS: That's okay. Well, what's your overall feeling about what that choir director was
like? Was he a good teacher?
KELLY: Well, he was a really interesting person, and there's some things that
happened later on after I started teaching, that kind of affirmed my feelings towards
him which... He was very good at what he did, and if he liked you, then life was good.
I'm not necessarily certain that I was one of his favorites and so I was sort of treated
indifferently, and that was fine. The people that loved him really loved him and they
had been with him and were loyal to him for the entire three years that they were in
high school. Just personality-wise, later on I kind of realized why didn't agree with
his style so much. It was kind of the old boys network. That's my best description of
it, and it was frustrating because, as someone who came into it maybe later, or maybe
that's why I didn't have the same feelings, because I hadn't been working with him for
a longer period of time, but you know, I left and I thought I had a great semester, and
I enjoyed being part of it, but I guess I didn't have that bond with him the way they
did with other music teachers that I'd worked with.
JS: Okay. I'm going to ask one more question about the choir director, and if you
don't remember that's fine. What do you recall about the kind of musician teacher, he
was, I mean, did you feel like he got a good sound out of the choir? Did he work on
vocal technique?
KELLY: Yes, he did. He did. And again, I'm trying to think back pedagogically how
he would have gotten it, you know how you would have gotten us to that point. I
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remember a lot of discussions about the shapes of vowels, and there were, in terms of
the articulation, he was good at that. He really was good at the nuts and bolts, and
personality aside, yes he did. We did well at that contest. I think we squeaked in
second, it was very close. It was only a citywide contest, so it was only four high
schools, but I know that we gave the private one, a run for their money.
JS: Okay. Now let's move ahead to college for a few minutes, and what was your
primary instrument in college?
KELLY: French horn was my primary instrument and we did have a requirement of
taking one semester of a vocal ensemble, and since I wasn't a voice major, I sang in
the Oratorio Chorus, which was kind of, we didn't have to audition for it. I think it
was kind of a campus-wide group, and that was for one semester and it was let's say,
probably 80-100 singers. You know, it was big. It filled the lecture hall, and I
remember the director that we had for that... Memory lane, I'm trying to remember
what big work we performed. He was one of these men who would see you, and meet
you and immediately remember your name for life. That kind of individual, and
maybe you've heard of him. His name is [name].
JS: Yeah.
KELLY: Again, 20 years later, I'm trying to remember what the focus was. I
remember enjoying working with him quite a bit. The piece we were working on was
a big, I mean long work, and we get a concert with the orchestra. So that was kind of
fun and exciting. You know, big, we took over the whole stage and we had everybody
out there and he conducted both.
JS: That's great. Okay. So now, thinking about your music education courses in
college, what was your favorite of those courses, and why was he your favorite?
KELLY: Well it would be easy for me to say that my favorite was my general music
class. (Laughter)
JS: Well, and if it was, go ahead. Thats fine.
KELLY: It's just funny, because I always thought I was going to be a band director,
so I guess I'll just give you a little bit of history about that. I enjoyed many of the
courses that I had, in terms of the methods classes, thinking again, that I was going to
be a band director, and most of the time the ones that made us work the hardest were
the ones that I tried hard. So percussion methods was one particular case, and he
expected so much out of us as non-percussionists that it kind of surprised me, or
maybe that's foreshadowing, I'm not sure of what I do now.
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I guess it would have to say it was a little bit of both that and my general class. Part of
it was the group of people that I work with. We had a great deal of fun. We had a
terrific, this is the general methods class now, we had a terrific teacher who really,
this is Dr. [name]. She had us just so actively engaged in everything we did, and
practicums and observations from early on, so we were really getting a lot of hands-
on with kids. And there was just something that spoke to me about the different
activities that we were doing. One I can remember vividly was that we just really
enjoyed dulcimer playing. Yeah. She had us accompany all kinds of differentthe
Autoharp, the Omnichord, had us do a little recorder playing, but the dulcimer, we
would go down early and just have these little dulcimer jam sessions, and try to figure
out different songs and that. So again, maybe that was foreshadowing. I'm not sure,
but I'm glad I paid as much attention as I did, because the first job that I signed a
contract for. I thought I was going to be teaching middle school band and then two
weeks before school started, they said, Oh, well we have you down at the
elementary, and I was not in a position to gather any materials, any resources,
anything. I just showed up and was kind of thrown in this classroom and boom. I'm
not really sure what I did that year. I survived, I survived.
JS: Wow.
KELLY: So then I came back and took Level I and a couple of graduate classes, and
then everything changed.
JS: We're going to talk about that in just a minute, but first, what was your least
favorite music education class, and why?
KELLY: And this is undergraduate?
JS: Uh huh.
KELLY: Okay, well there is a distinction.
JS: Yes there is.
KELLY: Again, I think it would probably be, you'll find this funny I think.
Woodwind methods were really, really a challenge for me, and I think part of it was
the way that the teacher approached us, and I think a lot of it, for me, was that
struggle and probably why I didn't pick a woodwind instrument when I was in fifth
grade, is just the complexity of the fingerings, and then to add on that just the oboe
mouthpiece, and you know, I did my best, but it was kind of one of those where they
sort of sent you out there and said here, go figure this out. That's not very (helpful).
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JS: No. Not very good teaching. Okay. What they made you decide, after you
graduated, how long did you teach, before you decided to take an Orff Schulwerk
levels course, and then what was the thing that attracted you to Orff Schulwerk?
KELLY: Well, I knew that after that first year of surviving, that first year, I knew I
had to do something if this was going to be the age of children that I taught, because I
felt like I was just re-creating the wheel. I knew that I wasn't being effective in a way
that I wanted to. I needed materials, I needed resources. I had a few life-line calls, one
to [my professor], and I was just hungry for materials, and things I was going to do
with these kids. So I came back and took music for middle school classroom, and
music for exceptional learners, that first summer I came back. And again, I think, I'm
not sure exactly who made the suggestion, you should go back and take this training,
I just saw that it was an offering that summer, at [university name] and I thought, well
this looks like a good one, and you know we may have touched on it very briefly as
an undergraduate, but it wasn't that I had someone say, Oh you should really go do
this training, it just was offered during times when I was, when I happened to be
home. And so that's really where I met [my co-worker and friend] and kind of where
things get started.
JS: Wow. So you didn't really know what you're getting into?
KELLY: No.
JS: Okay, wow, that's amazing. Okay, good. What kinds of things were your levels
teachers particularly good at teaching, and did they have weaknesses, and if so, what
were those weaknesses? The thing is, usually in levels courses, we assign people, or
we volunteer to teach things that are our best areas. Like I teach recorder. I started
teaching recorder because that was my thing, but what were the kinds of things that
they were particularly good at teaching, and then if they had any weaknesses, what
were those weaknesses. You probably can point to some of those.
KELLY: Yes, I can. I'll start with Level I. [Teacher name] was my basic instructor.
JS: And also, Kelly, I'll tell you that you know, did you just say her name, and that's
not a problem at all, because it's good information for me to have so I know which
strand were talking about, but then I will use an alias for everybody's name including
yours. So nobody will know who that is.
KELLY: Okay.
JS: So feel free to go ahead and use names.
KELLY: Okay. Thank you. As with any Level I course, there was so much about
everything she did, that was so new to me, and so it was fascinating, the wealth of
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material that we explored, and I really enjoyed doing the writing assignments, and as
I think back on that process and I think about how things have changed, in the 19
years since I took in class, I realized there were some things where she and I kind of
agreed to disagree, or just kind of butted heads a little bit on. Because it was, I would
write something for the instruments that I had my classroom, because that's what I
should do, because those are the instance I had, and she kept saying, No, you really
should do this and this and it would sound better. Of course that was just the
difference between inexperience and experience, and now in hindsight I realize where
she was coming from, but I think I had an alto metallophone and one glockenspiel or
something like that. That part of it wasn't sinking in for me at that particular point.
What I really appreciated was the fact that she let us embraced the creative process. I
remember sitting outside working on one of our writing assignments, and I think she
encouraged us to do that. We were doing something with nature, and so she said go
out and write about something... a haiku, that's right we were working on a haiku
poem, and I wrote something about a little bird and hot talons or something like that,
because of course it was in July. And so there was the part that was nurturing and I
really, really appreciated that. We didn't always agree, but I also kind of just accepted
that as, well this is this particular personality, and maybe we aren't always going to
have 100% on that. 100% agreement, I guess.
I wish that we'd have more, I'm not sure that this is a weakness, but I wish we just had
more time to talk about the big picture; however, at that point, I'm not sure how much
I would have internalized, how much it would have really taken in, but now that I
look back on it, I think, oh well, that was Level I. Do you want me to talk about each
part of the training, or just a basic teaching?
JS: It's up to you. I'd say whatever stands out most in your mind.
KELLY: Okay. The recorder and the movement in Level I, I think or what cinched
my desire to take Levels II and III, because the movement teacher, again for me, this
was just an enormously huge awakening. This was permission to do all these
wonderful things that I knew that my children, that my students would enjoy. She just
had such a wonderful way of embracing that and letting us, again, just explore any
avenue that we wanted. There was no prescribed formula that she was looking for. It
was just very free-flowing and open and she would give us nursery rhyme, and she
would say, Okay I want you to go and create something to go along with that, and
that was something that really spoke to me.
We did a lot of folk dancing, and again, it was just one of those things where I was
just so hungry for information and just new ideas, that was probably my favorite part.
JS: And who was the teacher?

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KELLY: That was [teacher name].
JS: Oh, wow.
JS: Yes, she just was terrific, and then [teacher name], of course, was my recorder
teacher. [My recorder teachers] style is, she is so patient and I was sitting next to, a
gal, a woodwind player, and she and I are good friends now, but I'm sitting next to
her in class and it almost became kind of a little competitive. I sort of got to the point
where I wanted to keep up with her and she of course was light-years ahead of me,
but it was one of these things where I just was eager for more.
I really enjoyed playing and the way that [my recorder teacher] approached it, going
back to that elementary experience, well I guess they didn't talk about recorder in
elementary school and how frustrating that was for me, but having [my recorder
teacher] go through and spell it out in such a really clear-cut way, I was successful at
it, I was able to, obviously being a grown-up, work at my own pace, but then I really
enjoyed it.
By the end of the first week, or by the end of the second week, she had pulled out
some soprano and alto things, and I thought, Well I'm a French horn player. I've
been transposing things for years and years. This isn't any different from that. And
so for a long time I just transposed the alto parts, because at that point I could. My
brain could still work that quickly. A little later on I just, you know, made the switch.
JS: Well good. So you talked a lot about your movement and recorder teachers, and
that's what you mostly teach now, when you teach adults. To what extent do you
think you emulate your own levels teachers? Any of them, not just [teacher name]
and [teacher name]?
KELLY: Well, as a teacher trainer or as a teacher of children?
JS: Either one.
KELLY: You know, I'll start with recorder, and there was something that somebody
said at [university name] this summer that made me very thankful and grateful that I
had the opportunity to work with them. She just said, You know you're just so real
about what's happening in the classroom, and I gave a lot of little anecdotes that I
use in my classroom, and I said, Okay here is kind of where I start with this, but I'm
going to be really honest with you. There are times when sometimes this approach
doesn't work with my kids, and we would explore and talk about different ways, for
whatever, literacy or if we're talking about articulation, just those different things.
And I really stressed to all of the students, because you can see on their faces that for
some, it is an enormously huge struggle to play this instrument, and they are just so
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anxiety-ridden that sometimes that gets in the way of their just being able to play the
instrument. So I try to make it as comfortable as possible.
I think the from my own personal experience, just as a student in elementary school
and as a student all the way through, that recorder playing, it shouldn't be something
thats scary and difficult, and my hope is that they are inspired just to improve their
own playing, and not compare themselves to the person three seats down, that's been
playing a woodwind instrument for 20 years. Those types of things.
As far as movement goes, on the movement side, I again, but want to just stress to the
adult learners, the adults taking levels courses, this is something that occasionally
doesn't look pretty and it's a work in progress, but for a lot of students, for a lot of
children, this is the way that they are most, they can express themselves in a way that
they can't do in other places, or maybe they're the kid that gets in trouble in the
classroom, but then when we let them, give them free rein in the movement setting,
all of a sudden we see this completely different side.
And so that's where the joy in sharing that with adult learners comes because I want
them to be able to take these things back to their own students. I also want them to
understand that movement isn't something that just happens overnight, or you throw
out, Hey go create something to go along with us. It's a process just like anything
else is.
JS: And do you think you got so that thinking from your movement teacher?
KELLY: Oh, most definitely, [my first movement teacher] and a lot from [my Level
III movement teacher].
JS: Was [teacher name] your movement teacher?
KELLY: For Level III.
JS: For Level III, okay. That's right, yeah.
KELLY: I see the most similarities in their style. The Level II experience was very
different. Not that there was anything wrong, but it was kind of a different focus. I
cheated a little bit, I pulled out my Level II notebook. I was thinking I should really
just go back and take a look at that, but at the time I didn't appreciate it for the value
of just having a new source of information, because it was so different from my Level
I.
It was much more structured and rigid. It was a huge emphasis on folk dance, not that
there's anything wrong with that, but I was kind of hungry for the opportunity to
express myself in some different ways. I don't really consider it a weakness, it was
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just a different teaching style, and as I look back on it now, I think, wow, there is a
whole other wealth of information. And for some people who really need that
pedagogical process really spelled out very clearly in terms of, here is how you can
facilitate this in your classroom, and we're going to write this down step-by-step, that
would have been appropriate for that kind of adult learner. For me, I was just kind of
needing to let go of the reins a little bit.
JS: So that's not the style you emulate, you emulate the other style.
KELLY: Yeah. Mm Hmm.
JS: Okay. I just have a couple more questions about your experience as a student in
teacher education courses in Orff Schulwerk. What kinds of singing experiences do
you remember from the Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses you attended?
KELLY: I remember, from Levels I and II...
JS: Did you also take Level II at [university name]?
KELLY: No. Level II was at [university name].
JS: Ah, okay. That's right. So Level I was at [university name] though, they brought
in that group to teach at [university name]?
KELLY: Correct.
JS: And then you went to [university name] for Level II, okay. Sorry to interrupt.
KELLY: No, that's okay.
JS: And then level III was?
KELLY: Level III was [university name]. Levels I and II, I look at that in terms of
where I was in my career and what was taking from that, and the singing experiences,
there was a lot of singing. Mostly singing games is what I remember doing most in
Level I. Again thinking, this is great, these are things I can take that use with my
children. Level II, [teacher name] was my basic instructor, and we did a lot of canons.
There was, I just remember a time when we would get together and we would meet
with the Level III class. There were times when we would work together, and then
there were times when we were separate, because it was a smaller course, but there
was a lot of, there was large group singing, it wasn't a structured as [university name]
in terms of the choir experience, but we did have more large-group singing types of
things. And then, at [university name] we had that hour at the end of the day, every
day with [teacher name], in the choir setting.
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JS: Did you read from score or did she teach you by rote, or was it some of both?
KELLY: Which level?
JS: In Level III.
KELLY: In Level III, we used, we were singing music, they were octavos, and we
had a little folder that we worked on different parts of, you know different pieces
every day, working gradually towards that choir concert that we did at the end of the
course. Again in hindsight, I wished... I really enjoyed it, I really did, but at that point
in the day, at 3:30 or 4:00 in the afternoon, everything feels full of little bit, but I do
remember a way that she that she so beautifully took some of those sections apart. I
mean, it was wonderful, I just wish I could go back and do it again, when I didn't
have the other stuff earlier in the day, because it was just terrific and the way that she
dissected some of that and really just broke it apart and then put the whole thing back
together again was magical.
JS: Okay. Good. Do you remember during your levels classes, do you remember
preferring some activities over others, and if so which ones did you prefer?
KELLY: Let me think about that one for a minute.
JS: Okay.
KELLY: (Thinks for 7 seconds.) You know Julie, I can't say that I preferred
something over another. I remember enjoying all of it, and I'm thinking back right
now to Level II, in particular, because it was so mixed up. I mean in course,
throughout the course of the day. In the morning we might be working on a speech
piece, and in the afternoon we were talking about carpets of sound-- I mean, and
getting to kind of incorporate we were taught in basic in a dance studio. So we had
the instruments on one end and then, we had all this free movement space. And that
was kind of nice because you got the whole picture at that point. I remember
struggling with certain things. It doesn't mean I didn't enjoy them. It was a lot more
work for me.
JS: What was more work for you?
KELLY: Technique and improvisation with [my teacher Level III teacher]. That was
definitely an area where I just was kind of Please don't call on me. (Laughs)
JS: And that was in Level III.

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KELLY: Yeah but again, I kind of thrive on that, in some odd way. I don't know, I
enjoyed the challenge of that part of it. I remember doing that eternal modes game
and thinking, I really want to be better at this.
JS: Did you say the Eternal Modes Game?
KELLY: (Laughing) Yeah, where you chime in when you could identify which one
he was playing or something.
JS: Which mode? Yeah.
KELLY: Yeah. The pressure we had to be the first one! He would just go around the
room and have everybody improvise vocally and boy that just reminded me I
haven't thought about those things in a while. I liked that challenge.
JS: Definitely vocal improvisation makes you feel vulnerable.
KELLY: Yeah, and that too.
JS: There are no bars to take off. No pitches avoid.
KELLY: Just out there and either he was on or it wasn't.
JS: Yeah, okay. Great, well thank you Kelly. I have some questions about your
teaching with children so let's talk about that experience for a few minutes. When you
teach children, what are your favorite activities to teach and why? And you know,
that's also going to beg the question what are your least favorite activities to teach to
children and why.
KELLY: Okay, well...
JS: And these can be specific or they can be general, whichever you prefer.
KELLY: Okay. (Pauses for 10 seconds.) I think it's hard to pinpoint one. I guess
JS: You don't have to pinpoint one, you can name several.
KELLY: I was just thinking, I enjoy what the children offer, or, at least in my own
teaching style, it's the fact that I'm free to mix things up. And I'm not meaning
whether that's a movement activity or a body percussion activity or a singing activity
or a singing game. You know, I can approach it from so many different ways. And so,
that's one thing I think, that speaks to me in terms of the approachwhether that's if
we're introducing something new and we start with movement, or were introducing
something new and we do body percussion, or a mirroring activity, that sort of thing.
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I'm not sure that I can isolate just one specific thing. I enjoy the whole process. And I
think that's what keeps me going back every year; is that I have that freedom.
JS: Okay, all right. What about least favorite?
KELLY: Least favorite. You know, my least favorite thing is when something is
prescribed for me. When they say, Will you teach this thing? If it's a quality piece
of literature, then, it's like, Sure no problem. But if somebody comes and says,
Would you do this thing that comes from their social studies unit, I don't know
what this thing is. But if somebody comes and says, Would you teach them this?
Then I'm thinking, Oh, my time with them is so precious that I don't know. I just feel
like very careful or very picky about the things that I do with these kids. Because you
know, I really value that 60 minutes that I have with them every week and it's just not
enough time.
JS: Okay. Describe how you incorporate singing into your teaching of children.
KELLY: I try to have I want to have a singing experience in every lesson, whether
that's kindergarten through fifth grade, and that something that, in recent years, I've
added more. Because I think it was a part that was sometimes being a little bit
neglected. We were working on a big instrument piece or we were doing something
with a series of folk dances or something. And then I realized, you know, this is
something we should be doing every time they come to music.
And so, for example, with the little ones we'll start with an opening song or a greeting
song or something like singing their names and something to encourage well first of
all get to know them, but secondly just to encourage them to sing. Something that's
familiar. So I have kind of a few of those that I mix up. And then of course there's the
regular material, I guess: a song or an activity or a play party or something that
we're working in class. But there is some kind of opening song, singing activity, in
every lesson, and then whether or not we're working on a rhythm thing or, you know,
something else, that's extra.
With the older kids, intermediate years, grades three through five, I want them to
have a singing experience, again, every time they come. So I've been really working a
lot with rounds or canons and just having that, if we're working on some big barred
instrument piece and I know that's going to be the focus for our day, we'll start with
that as a warm-up. And for the first few lessons we'll just introduce it and sing it in
unison; and then, maybe the third time that I see them with the class we'll start doing
it in parts.
JS: Okay, great. On what factors do you base your decision on how you will
incorporate singing?
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KELLY: I will look at the grade level first, and then consider thekind of the
dynamic of the class. And just meaning, Is this a group who is going to jump on
board right away and will be able to do a little bit more with it? Or do I need to spend
a little more time preparing, either having them listen to the melody in some way
whether recorder, piano or something before I introduce the song. The makeup of
the class, the dynamic of the class, meaning just that. You know, they're Im not
coming up with a good word for that. You know, really, really depends on how I'm
going to approach it or introduce it.
However, I also go in with the expectation that this is just what you do. And I don't
make any apologies for that. I'm just, Nope this is what we are going to do today,
and I don't give them an out. You know, for not participating.
JS: Okay, great. What are some examplesand you already mentioned a few of
these KellyYou talked about canons and rounds and part-songs even, but what are
some examples, besides those, of the music you teach children to sing in your class?
So maybe, do you use folk songs?
KELLY: Oh, sure sure. I'm sorry. I was thinking music from the Volumes or...
JS: So, say that too. What kind of pieces from the volumes?
KELLY: Well, with the younger kids, lots of emphasis on the so-mi, so-mi-la songs.
Volume I, there is I don't necessarily use all the instrumental arrangements but
Little Tommy Tucker and...
JS: Bobby Shaftoe?
KELLY: Bobby Shaftoe, that's it I can see it on the page. Yeah. So those types of
songs or songs with, you know, similar solfge, with different ostinato
accompaniments. Okay, now we're back to primary again. Really looking at
reinforcing, you know, those steady beat scales and having just lots of material that
starts out with so-mi, so-mi-la and so on.
The older kids, a lot of times of one of the review pieces that I use at the beginning of
the year is Solos Here for Everyone because it just gets us in there right away and
it's such an accessible melody for those kids. Immediately it's like within a day,
alright great we've got all the parts going. And then, if time allows, we can start
working on a little bit of improvisation. Which is great.
I use materials from lots of different, I will have to say, Orff Schulwerk sources. I
don't have one that I use exclusively, or more than others, but they're some of those
songs, some of those folks songs that I've used in different arrangements; whether
there's something published or something I wrote or something that I picked up at a
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workshop. You know, those types of things that have accompaniments. Sometimes I
use them, and sometimes we'll just do the play-party or the game that goes along with
it.
I occasionally use some of the materials from the textbook and I have found a few
little treasures in there that the kids really enjoy; and it's kind of a novelty to get those
out. So, that's another source that I use, but boy, really a lot of it boils down to those
experiences from workshops, you know, the books and materials that I've collected
over the years.
JS: Okay. Some of the research that I've read suggests that there are times when Orff
Schulwerk students just sing and other times when they sing in combination with
other media in Orff Schulwerk. Is that the case in your teaching? And if so, what are
some examples of how singing is taught by itself and what are some examples of how
singing is taught in combination with other Orff Schulwerk media?
KELLY: Well, I'll start with teaching by itself. In third grade, in the intermediate
grades well a little bit with the primary grades too, I will introduce songs that can
be, you know, the rounds and canons, those types of things, just to start working on a
little bit of part independence. And sometimes it has to do with, I guess, the way I
introduce a song. Meaning, perhaps I'll have them travel freely through space while I
am playing the melody on the soprano or alto recorder just to start getting that melody
in their heads. It's not necessarily for them to perform, but it's just to have them
internalizing that melody before I teach it to them.
Sometimes I use a piano for that same thing or sometimes I'll just sing on a neutral
syllable. Just to get that melody down. There are other times that we might start
learning a melody on the barred instruments first, and then maybe it later we go back
and sing it. However, that's not as often the case as... You know, the other way
around where we sing something first and then add the accompaniment parts to go
with it.
JS: But I've heard another person say that same thing and I'd never thought about that
sometimes we teach the song through the barred instruments and other times we teach
at the barred instrument piece through the voice, through the singing. That's cool.
Very cool.
KELLY: It kind of goes back to that just that freedom of being able to choose how
you're going to incorporate it.
JS: Yep.
KELLY: And then, with recorder, again, it kind of goes it kind of goes both ways.
What Ive found is that, if the kids know the song before we play it, obviously, they
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learn it a lot quicker because it's just, you know, it's something that's familiar to them.
And just the straight echo playing, especially if it's something that's a little bit trickier,
unusual or doesn't have a pretty predictable pattern is really much more of a
challenge because their working through so many different, you know, just decoding
so many different things. So, that was something I took from some sessions I went to
on recorder playing at conference a couple of years ago and, you know, I tried that
this year, where I introduced the song sometime in the fall, just as a little singing
game or activity and then we would come back, you know, a couple of months later
and play them. And then, abracadabra! They worked, they were successful. Yeah, it
really made a difference.
JS: And you already talked about singing games, so of course they're moving while
they're singing and you've already talked about the fact that sometimes they
accompany their singing on the Orff instruments. Can you think of anything else?
That might be it.
KELLY: Well, there's a few things I do. You know, that have some body percussion
that goes along with it. I would say that more often for not though I guess really if
you're asking for the practical application in my classroom, it's probably more of yes,
the singing, playing instruments or singing and movement.
JS: Okay, all right. Now this is a tricky question; and I am not looking for a
percentage in this case but what proportion of your teaching would you say is devoted
to singing? So however you can describe that. I know Cecilia Wang did a study, in
which she asked teachers to not rank, I was going to say rank but, to put a percentage
on the amount of time they spend on all the different activities in their classrooms.
So there was singing, playing instruments, movement, listening. All kinds of things
like that and what was interesting was, and these were Orff Schulwerk teachers at the
Kentucky course during that course, that she surveyed. And what was interesting was
they said what we sing 50% of the time and we play instruments 50% of the time and
we move 50% of the time and weyou know. And it was interesting because what
she came to, in the study was that Orff Schulwerk teachers do lots of different things
at once. So that's kind of where this previous question came from. Now, I wanted to
ask you what proportion of your teaching would you say is devoted to singing?
KELLY: Singing.
JS: And does it vary?
KELLY: Well yes. Definitely it varies.
JS: How?
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KELLY: Meaning that and this is hard to answer just because I'm coming off a year
with a particularly challenging group. And so that's kind of in the back of my mind as
a factor in here; and not necessarily something that I'm proud of but, you know, we --
I spent so much time just dealing with the management issue that there wasn't as
much that I would've liked to have focused on different activities.
That said, looking at the grades that I felt like I was more successful with, I would say
that we are, safely say that 40-50% of the activities that we are doing involves
singing. And now, that also may involve movement and it may involve instrument
playing but there, like I said, there's that emphasis that I put on making sure that
we're doing something every day, in addition to the activities that we're working on in
class. And I'm kind of reserving that other 50% for either instructions or, you know,
again thinking of my older kids when we're working on a barred instrument piece,
which, that was their golden carrot. And so, I spent more time with that this year
because it was something that we can be successful at and I wasn't having to make so
many reminders about other things that had nothing to do with making music.
JS: Yeah. So how does the fact that you had a group that was more challenging this
year, how does that affect how much time you spend on singing or does it affect of
the singing or just it affects everything?
KELLY: It affects everything. It affected everything. It was a situation where there

were just so many behavior issues, that really got in the way of instruction and it
wasn't just in my classroom. This was just across the board. And, you know, the four
of us that work with these kids, the two classroom teachers and then the two
specialists that work with them the most, we were just beating our heads against the
wall trying to figure out how is it that we are going to reach these kids. Because
collectively, we probably had about I00 years of teaching experience. This is a
seasoned group of teachers.
But we were just at wits end and there were some factors in there that, you know, in
hindsight we should have probably manipulated much earlier on it might have made it
more successful. The thing that bothered me the most is that there's those kids that
just have so many needs and are so vocal and so outspoken about their issues,
whatever those are, that I just felt this huge unfairness to the ones that weren't in that
weren't you know, in that group. And I was thinking, oh, this just makes my heart
ache because we've got this very needy group of kids that there's so much happening
in here that it's just really getting in the way of instruction.
At one point I tallied the number of interruptions that were made in a 30-minute class
and there were--Julie, it was ridiculous it was like one for every 30 seconds. I was
thinking, Okay, do I need to pick up the pacing? I was trying every instructional
strategy I could think of you know to get these kids on my side and, by the end of the
year, they had kind of grown up a little bit and a lot of those things that kind of
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subsided a little bit, but I never felt like we were having those experiences that I was
hoping for because they are just, you know, just arguments and things were just
getting in the way constantly, constantly.
JS: Were there activities that could work with them or specific lessons that did go
well?
KELLY: Like I said, the thing that it's probably that, they really enjoyed working
on the barred instruments and I'm lucky enough to have a situation where I can have
one per student. And so we did a lot of the large group playing experiences. We did
do the canons and the singing that I did with my older kids, the fifth graders, and to
their credit, since it's such a great big group you know, there were times that it really
sounded a whole lot nicer, you know, because there was kind of strength in numbers.
It was 24 kids versus 14-15 in my older group. So that helped quite a bit. Again, it's
kind of falling back on that, on the instrumental, a lot of drumming and some body
percussion things, and when I had them on board we were in great shape. But those
days that it was, you know, whatever had happened beforehand or that I had no
control over it, it just really got in the way.
JS: Yeah, yeah, okay. And for these next couple of questions you can think in terms
of the kids that you just referred to that were the challenging group, but I'd like you to
think overall as wellwith all grade levels. What activities do children seem to enjoy
most when they're taught through the Orff approach and what activities do they seem
to enjoy the least? And this might be related to their grade level. I mean, you could
say while the first-graders liked this but the fifth-graders liked this. You know,
whatever you want to think of.
KELLY: I guess the first thing that I think of when you asked that, is what are those
activities and do they ask can we do it again and again and again. And I'm thinking of
London Bridge. You know, it's so-- it's funny, because even the older kids, I think
if we went back and play that they wouldn't think it was as much fun. It's like while
that was great when you're in first grade, but as a third or fourth grader it's probably
not going to have the same effect. But I think the element of the capture and shake
them up with pepper and salt, you know, I mean it was just it's like I could never say
no. Of course.
So okay, starting with the primary kids and trying to think of what was the golden
carrot for the older ones. You know, again I'm thinking of specific classes. But the
things that they asked to do over and over, or what I consider kind of the ultimate
compliment, Can we share this with our teacher, can we show this to our teacher,
can we show this to our principal, are those types of things were those experiences
where they had a choice in what they were doing..And what I mean by that is we
would teach, we would learn something on the barred instruments and then I would
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say okay let's have another group over here and I'm going to have you at a little
movement activity to go along with it.
Or maybe we would do it as a group, and then later on they'd have a choice, okay you
want to go to instruments today or do you want to work on this, on the movement
part. I think those are the things, as I'm thinking about my intermediate grades, third,
fourth and fifth, those are the things they took the most pride in.
And again, I think some of it has to do with the fact that they were allowed to make a
decision about what they wanted to do, instead of just saying, Oh let's perform A,
just a single mode activity. But there was a sense of accomplishment and completion
and something that they were proud of and wanted to share. And that's not I'm
sorry. It's not exclusive to singing or barred instrument playing it just was this is what
we want to take or what we want to share with others.
JS: Okay. And what did they enjoy the least?
KELLY: (10 second pause) I think that's, I mean that kind of a hard question to
answer. And the reason is because I'm thinking of certain individuals that would say
my least favorite that activity is this, but I really enjoy, you know, doing this. And
maybe for some, maybe for some that would be a singing activity. But for others it
might be playing recorder; because they were, they were just frustrated with the
fingering and trying to internalize all of that.
JS: And that may be the answer Kelly. That makes a lot of sense. That it depends on
the child.
KELLY: Yeah, I had one little guy, that as long as he was with me in instruction
everything was good but then when he would hit the wall, and something would
challenge him you know, the earth came crashing down. And so if you were to ask
him, What's your least favorite, it would be really interesting to get an answer on
that. Because, like I said, as long as everything was going along and the pacing was
meeting what he was, life was good. And then all of a sudden, and I never knew when
this was going to happen, you know we get to that part on the barred instrument piece
and he hit the wall and then, you know, tears. So it was, yeah, I think it really depends
on the child.
JS: And isn't that one of the strengths of Orff Schulwerk work. There's something for
everybody. And there may also be something everybody doesn't like as much. Or they
may be like you and they just liked everything. Which is really good.
KELLY: I was thinking, We dont like hearing Mrs. [her own name] harp about
whatever. Can we have another lecture? No. (They laugh.)
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JS: One last question about children. Do the children in your classes, in the classes
you teach, like to sing? Are they good at singing and why do you think they're good
or not good?
KELLY: Well, I will speak to [my daughters] class, if that's okay.
JS: Sure.
KELLY: Her class always probably had the benefit of-- well I'm the only music
teacher that they've ever known. So over the four years you know it's looked a little
bit different than maybe for the older kids, when I first came into the school.
So, I decided that a couple of things from the foundation of when they started
kindergarten were going to be true, and one of them was that everybody participates.
That's just an expectation and you at least give it a try. So I haven't ever allowed them
to say, No, were not going to do that. I'm like, No, everybody gives it a try.
In addition, they've been the group that I've kind of held to a little bit higher standard.
Again, I've had them since kindergarten, so I've been able to move them along a little
bit farther and faster than I did the older grades, that I kind of inherited I guess. And
so, they're able to do some things that even the grade ahead of them cant do. That
particularly challenging class, but I just can't let go of the reins the same way I do in
her class. And I think I just maybe it's just because I'm the only one they've known or
maybe it's just that dynamic, that particular chemistry and a group of kids.
JS: But do they seem to like to sing?
KELLY: Yes, and oh, that's the thing about it. I would say, with that one group as an
exception, yes.
JS: Everybody likes to sing?
KELLY: Hands down, yes. There are more that like it than don't, I guess.
JS: And are they good at it?
KELLY: Yes. And what I love is Hey, let's try this in two parts or can we do this in
three parts oryou know. And I say, Oh this is something the older kids do, and
maybe we should wait until you're older. No, no, no! That kind of thing, and your
class this summer kind of reminded me of them.
JS: (Laughing)
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KELLY: Yeah, yeah. So I'm excited to have them as, you know, the older kids in the
school this year, because I'm just excited to see what we're going to be able to do.
You know? And they've just, that part of it is just, that part of it I think the reward,
and its neat to see your own kid through it too.
JS: Yeah. Okay now I've got several questions about your teaching of Orff Schulwerk
to adults. So first of all, how do yousome of these are very similar to the ones I've
only asked about childrenand the answers may be c similar or who knows, they
may be different. How do you incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your
levels classes?
KELLY: That's an interesting question, given what I teach.
JS: Yeah, because you teach mostly movement and recorder. So do you use singing?
KELLY: But I do, I do. In fact, and that's something that's kind of evolved in the
seven years I've been doing this. At the beginning, it was probably more strictly
movement, strictly recorder. There might be some times when we would do a singing
activity with recorder but it wasn't necessarily, you know, it was maybe something
that we'd already sung.
Now, fast forward seven years to this year. I'd been working on some new things to
incorporate the recorder playing and music from the volumes, into one neat little
package and it was interesting that I wasn't sure if it should be a movement lesson or
if I should put it into recorder lesson, because we did both. My little experiment, I
guess, if you will, really paid off because what we started with was an activity that
had, not only the song, but then a simple little B A G, you know, melody, but I
introduced it all in movement class and then later on we went back and looked at it in
the volumes and said Okay let's take a look at this and how it was transposed and
how it's more accessible for your students.
That's something again, that I think I've gotten better at as I've had more teaching
experience and really saying, Look this isn't about just teaching this piece,
especially for Level Is. Saying, Okay now we're just going to learn as one piece and
that's going to be it. It's about using it in different ways and looking at it and
thinking, Well it doesn't work in the key of C; maybe it will work in the Key of G.
Then all of a sudden we've got lots more options. So there's one example.
Another that I actually did with your class this year was just to do some more prep
activities before we started playing recorder; but that early-morning time was kind of
a challenge some mornings. And so, once I finally figured out that we just needed to
do some wake-up activities, all of a sudden things started getting a little bit better.
JS: And you had them sing?

225
KELLY: Just some singing, some stretching, some good mornings.
JS: What kind of songs did you sing?
KELLY: It wasn't anything that had to do with their recorder playing. It was just a
good morning, how are you song. But it seemed to kind of help rejuvenate us a little
bit and just kind of get them into the mindset that we needed to be in and start
playing.
JS: And in movement class, where some examples of some songs they sing or do
they?
KELLY: Yes sometimes. Now you've just reminded me back to a day when one
activity that both [my colleague] and I did but we didn't realize the other one was
teaching it. And once we talked about it was a whole lot more successful but that little
song called Walking to the Leftthe Shenanigans CDs. I had used as a warm-up
activity just to get, you know, people kind of going in the morning. But I sing it, I
don't play the recording of it, I sing the song. Then as they are comfortable, they are
able to sing along with us.
A lot of times when I'm teaching a folk dance, I will sing the melody, so that they are
internalizing the melody, rather than counting out the number of steps that its
supposed to take. In fact, I think I made that just my public announcement, that there
will be no more counting. Because it's so unmusical.
JS: Yes, exactly.
KELLY: You know, you're not feeling the phrase. And if I can't remember the
melody then I can just improvise some little rivet or something; so that they're not
focusing on the number of steps and theyre listening for that phrase.
JS: Okay. When you're teaching adults in levels courses, what are your expectations
for the kinds of musical knowledge and skills that these music educators should
already have when they begin the class?
KELLY: Are we talking overall? Or specifically, more as it relates to singing or
JS: Overall. What would you expect them to be able to do when they come to you?
KELLY: Well, I expect them to. I expect them to be able to sing in tune, match
pitch. I expect them to have. I'm not sure how I would qualify a certain level of
musicianship as I'm talking about some of the more technical terms. Or take recorder
for example, phrase length. You know, that they're musically literate. And I think that
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distinction between the things I do with kids and then moving over to the adult
learner and saying Okay, we're looking at page whatever of the Sweet Pipes book.
That they would have you know, that background knowledge.
That said I guess, I should put a little aside in here, that we have had a few teachers,
in previous years that are classroom teachers. That makes it that's kind of a whole
different ballgame. And most of them have had some kind of music, or enough music
experience that they are able to function. There are certain things that would be more
difficult than others, in terms of the assignment writing. I'm thinking of Basic right
now, those kinds of things.
And I would generally be very hopeful that they would come with the mindset of
trying new things and being willing to take chances and do something that scares
them. That was something else that we talked a lot about, especially as it related to
recorder playing, because I don't know that it was that they were scared, I think they
were just frustrated with the switching back and forth [alto and soprano recorder] and
I said You know, I am not worried if you make mistakes. I really, really am not. I
would rather have tried and made a mistake. And we say this to our kids all the time,
but as adults, we want that to be right, right away. And good at it right away and that
just doesn't happen. So I guess they would may be more important than or equally
important than the music literacy is being willing to try something that's outside the
box for them.
JS: Okay, good. Based on your experiences as an Orff teacher educator, what do you
think are your primary reasons that music educators enroll in an Orff course?
KELLY: Well, I'll start with breaking it down by levels. Most of the people that have
taken Level I trainingI'm speaking because I have more experience with [another
city]are young teachers, who are looking for resources and ideas and ways to
engage their students in the classroom. Some of the more mature, the older students
that we've had, are looking for something different, and maybe they had a number of
years of teaching experience and they're coming and trying to find some new ways to
reach the children that they work with. I'm always so hopeful that after that Level I,
when they have time to practice and use it with their kids, that they do have the
motivation to come back and take the upper levels. But like we talked about, for
some, Level I is probably enough. And for others, I can think of some great
examples, it was so time, for Level II because they needed to be looking outside the
box and looking for different ways and different material and just different
modalities.
JS: Literally.
KELLY: Literally, yes, exactly to work with.

227
JS: Yeah so maybe they
KELLY: Kind of a bit of that approach looking....
JS: Okay great. Typically, what are the adult students favorite activities, and then
what are their least favorite activities? You may answer this the same way you did
about children.
KELLY: I was going to say it really depends on the individual. You know, there are
the people that like the whole package and enjoy everything that they're doing. There
are some whom for movement or recorder speaks to them more strongly or maybe the
activities that are done in Basic. Having not seen any of those evaluations I
You know, I think, kind of just reflecting on what I take from teaching at the summer
courses and what I hope to take back to the students, and even working with even our
own district staff, is either you will see something that affirms something that you're
already doing because it's something that you do in your classroom or maybe it's just
a new idea, a new way to approach it, a different way to approach it.
in your levels courses?
KELLY: Yes.
JS: And what activities do you think they resist the most?
KELLY: Recorder improvisation would be something that would be, yes. You know,
and it kind of depends on the group and some
JS: Didn't you have somebody this summer they just said no? Somebody in one of
the courses where I taught had a student that, when they got to them, just said, no they
weren't going to do it.
KELLY: That was [another teacher]. [She] was talking about that.
JS: Oh, that's right.
KELLY: I had a few this summer. We did it in a big group. This is exactly what I do
with my students in the classroom; we start as a big group and everybody plays at the
same time, it's just a big mess. But then we'll divide halves, and then I'll ask for
volunteers and then, at some point, I will say, We're just going to go around, and
everybody's going to have a turn. And I say that this is the same. I tell the adult
learners that this is the same thing that I do with the children. Again, I am not worried
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if everything is perfect or if you throw a bomb, or whatever, you know, just try it! So
that is one area where I have seen some resistance. Another is in movement classes is
just, well some of it is just what the body is physically able to do. I wouldn't really
call it resistance. I would say sometimes it's just prohibited by knees or bending or
whatever. I guess that's not the same as resistance. Some of it is comfort level.
JS: I bet in movement class there are times when they feel uncomfortable doing
something, because it's new. It's outside their box.
KELLY: Yeah, but I always stress too, that if you're coming into this and it's
something that you haven't explored with your kids, I just say, Look, this isn't I
want you to have this experience so that you're able to facilitate this with your kids. It
doesn't mean you have to do it the same way that your kids would. You can give them
some directions on how to do this just to get them in the door. But, my hope is that
they will kind of move past that and try some of these things.
JS: Yeah. Okay. That concludes my questions Kelly. Do you have anything you'd like
to add to the conversation?
KELLY: Well, this is very different than what I was I don't know what I was
expecting.
JS: Oh, really?
KELLY: This is very different from I don't know what I was expecting but yeah, I
mean, not in a bad way. I wasn't expecting so many questions about my memories,
you know, and that's kind of fun to -- it was very enjoyable to think about that time,
especially with my grandmother and my aunt and my dad.
JS: Yeah. Good.
KELLY: I don't know, yeah, it really kind of puts some things in perspective and that
we were meeting with-- now is this on tape?
JS: Yes. Do you want me to turn it off? I can turn it off if you want me to.
KELLY: No, I had this meeting with the middle school teachers today and they were
saying how thankful that they are that they got so many kids that love to sing and a
nice number in their choir, and the kids that don't take choir then have a general
music class at the middle school. And theyre just thankful, you know, they're just
really thankful that they have kids that are willing that really want to participate and
maybe that's their one performance experience. But it really is rewarding and when
they told me about the numbers in choir versus the numbers in general music. I
thought, Wow, this is great. Okay we are doing some good. And even though
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they're saying that they don't remember all these things, I've been teaching them for
six years.
JS: So there are more kids in choir than there are in general music?
KELLY: Easily. And it was nice because we've got, on my end of the district, the
feeder schools that feed into that particular middle school. There are two of us, three
of us, that have levels training. And there's one that doesn't, but it's not here or there,
it's just nice to hear that these up and comers that are showing a lot of promise and are
doing some good things.
JS: That's great, yeah. All right, well thank you Kelly. Thank you so very much.
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Appendix E
Transcript of Interview with Libby
JS: I am here with Libby. And Libby, todays date is June 18th, 2009. And Libby, I
want to be sure that I have your permission to record this.
LIBBY: Yes, you do.
JS: Thank you. And we are just going to talk about singing, a little bit.
LIBBY: Okay.
JS: Well discuss singing with regard to Orff Schulwerk and, in other words, just
about singing. So the first question I have for you is, What are your earliest
memories of singing, maybe even at home or maybe even in kindergarten, or
wherever?
LIBBY: My earliest memory of singing is my dad singing Kentucky Babe. (They

laugh.) And You Are My Sunshine.
JS: To you? Was that for bedtime or was that just whenever?
LIBBY: For comfort and at bedtime; especially the memory is stronger at bedtime
when he was tucking me in and then trying to sing along with him, at least in my
head.
JS: Oh. That is very sweet.
LIBBY: It is very sweet.
JS: And what about after that? Any other memories at home or
LIBBY: I sang all the time. My Fair Lady was my favorite record. I was probably
three.
JS: Oh! Gosh!
LIBBY: And I would put it on the record player when I was three or four and dress up
in my moms little prom dress and sing and dance with her. [Laughter] And put on
shows.
JS: And put on shows. Was there an audience or was there just?
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LIBBY: Sometimes. Sometimes, I would invite my parents into the living room. Plan
a show and sing for them and dance. And dress up in my parents clothes. I made
tickets.
JS: Made tickets? Okay. So moving on to kindergarten, maybe?
LIBBY: [Teacher name] was my music teacher and we did sing-alongs. We could
bring our favorite record in sometimes and we would sit around and listen. I
remember she played the piano and we sing songs with her. We sing Bad, Bad,
Leroy Brown.
JS: You did? So, pop songs even.
LIBBY: Stop and Smell the Roses. Oh, yeah. Almost all pop, really all pop songs
or patriotic songs and then wed have all-school sing-alongs through elementary
school, kindergarten through sixth grade in the gym, or someone would have the job
of putting the overhead up and following the lines with their finger and we would all
sing it at the top of our lungs, sitting on the gymnasium floor, all of these different
pop songs.
JS: And so was that your elementary music experience or was there a classroom too?
LIBBY: That was my elementary classroom music experience. I think we had some
instruments. And we had a creative dance record we'd do once in awhile. And we had
some books. But what I remember about singing was singing the pop songs because
we did that the most.
JS: So you dont remember singing folk songs or singing games, play parties, that
kind of thing we often teach now?
LIBBY: No, I learned folk songsso she must have done some because I knew them,
but I dont remember doing that.
JS: Do you remember what songs, you learned?
LIBBY: I dont remember what age I learned these songs.
JS: Oh yeah.
LIBBY: But I know, This Land is Your Land. I remember singing that. The typical
patriotic songsStar-Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful, My Country tis
of Thee, things like that.
JS: Yeah? Probably from the books?

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LIBBY: Yeah, and I think, my dad sang some to me too. So I think I learned some,
you know, from him.
JS: So, that was your elementary music experience. What about in junior high in high
school? Did you continue singing?
LIBBY: I was in choir all the way through. When I left elementary school, 7th grade
to the junior high and I was in choir all the way until I graduated and I added
Chamber Singers to that when I went to high school, so I was in two choirs.
JS: Well, what were those experiences like and what was the repertoire that you sang?
LIBBY: In junior high, we sang just some of those pieces thatI dont remember the
titles of thembut some of the traditional junior high octavo, kind of stuff;
sometimes little pop sort of things and starting to get into a little bit of classical
repertoire. It is hard to remember what any of them were. None of them were terribly
memorable, but in high school we moved into serious concert choir and chamber
music repertoire. I remember we did the Messiah every other year for orchestra,
and we had professional soloists. We did big serious pieces.
JS: Major works?
LIBBY: Yes, they had a lot of sophistication.
JS: And in foreign languages?
LIBBY: Lots of different languages. We had theory lessons combined with our choir
experience and then choir tour to Europe and visited [university] and did some things
there.
JS: Oh my gosh! So you went to Europe with the choir?
LIBBY: I couldnt afford to go. The choir went without me. Oh. And in [state] MEA.
JS: Wow. It was really a good program, then.
LIBBY: Yes. We sang often with our orchestra combined. I was in both so I would
jump back and forth between playing and singing for various pieces.
JS: What did you play?
LIBBY: Viola.
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JS: Okay. So you were in both choir and in an orchestra, or strings class?
LIBBY: Yes. I was in symphonic orchestra, chamber orchestra, concert choir, and
chamber choir.
JS: How did you find time for all of that?
LIBBY: I dont know.
JS: It is great. Were they all during school day?
LIBBY: Yes.
JS: Thats cool that you got to do that!
LIBBY: I was in All-State Orchestra.
JS: Great. Now, when you got to college, did you major in voice, or did you major in
viola, or what did you do?
LIBBY: I started majoring in viola, and I was miserable. In second year of college
about halfway throughI registered for voice lessons and decided to re-audition to be
accepted at the school of music as a vocal student. I auditioned, and I changed my
major.
JS: To voice? Okay. Well, a lot of people in college who had voice as their major had
private lessons and sang with an ensemble. And then separate from that, you probably
had some singing experiences in your methods classes. So would you talk to me
about all those kinds of singing experiences you had in college?
LIBBY: Started with the private lessons with [teacher name], and she ended up
having a lot of the music education majors as her vocal students. She was so patient
and kind and wonderful and a crazy diva. I loved, looked forward to, every single
lesson because she made you believe that you could do it even when you felt scared
as a kid. We sang a lot of art songs. We did some of those aria studies for technique,
but a lot of art songs. And she wanted to find songs that we loved and to push you to
sing in lots of different languages and would tape the lesson. And then, I sang in the
concert choir and in the womens chorus and we did, you know, big University of
[State], so one of the Big Ten schools it was a gigantic choir. So we sang at [name]
Auditorium and staged huge masterworks.
JS: I'll bet.

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LIBBY: Frequently. And it was very, very fun. And then, in methods classes we sang
folk songs. My first methods class with my teacher, he would sit behind a piano and
play and yell at us to get up tall and straight and sit up tall, and if we weren't he would
stop and yell at us some more. Yes, we had to sing Shine on Harvest Moon, I See
the Moon and the Moon Sees me, Im looking over a Four-Leaf Clover. And the
demand was that we were sitting up and doing it exactly right, or we'd get yelled at.
JS: Now, when he did that was he talking with you as if you were children? Or was
he really seriously...
LIBBY: He was serious; college students! Sit up tall!
JS: Sit up tall. So, you got a lot of instruction about voice because you got a lot of
feedback about the singing voice or was it just about sitting up?
LIBBY: Not a whole lot of feedback about the voice, but the philosophy of teaching
about matching pitch was that you tell Johnny, No, that was not correct. And so,
my classmates and I had a bit of a comical experience with singing in methods class.
We were doing the real singing elsewhere in our lessons, and our choir. And then, this
was the singing we had to do to pass the class. Then we had to sing and play guitar at
the same time and we had to sing and play the autoharp and have tests to play those
songs, and he would make us sing at the beginning.
JS: What aboutdid you play any singing games? Like dances, like movement
games?
LIBBY: Absolutely not.
JS: So you sat in the class
LIBBY: Yes we diduntil the next year when [the teachera well-known clinician
and teacher] came and taught a class called Classroom Instruments.
JS: I did not know that.
LIBBY: She was working on her Doctorate. And I was getting ready to change my
major actuallyfrom music education, because I wasn't having any fun. And I loved
music so much, but the class was depressing. I thought, I don't want to do that to
kids. And so I was going to change. [My teacher] came in, and we sang and we
played games, and we did folk songs and dances and played Orff instruments, and all
the lights went back on for me. I said, Well, this I love. I can do this. And so, I
always tell her she saved my career. Singing was funand through playful, gentle,
nurturing ways instead of saying, Oh, that wasn't correct, we found all kinds of fun
ways to stretch our voices and our ranges.
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JS: So, practiced different ranges. She did activities that helped you to?
LIBBY: We practiced and sang lots of canons, and she gave us a big packet of
canons so we'd have repertoire and take it to our student teaching experience. I still
have the packet. They were all really good canons. She also did some childrens
octavos with us, so that we would have some early choral repertoire to help us so that
we would know how to teach. So that when we started teaching we have a couple
things under our beltswhich was really nice too. Then we had to do some sample
lessons for her some practical kinds of lessons to practice teaching.
JS: Oh, that's great.
LIBBY: I remember singing Octopuss Garden.
JS: Okay. Well then I know you taught for a while before you took Level 1.
LIBBY: Yes, a long time.
JS: So talk with me about your levels coursesthe kind of singing experiences that
you remember from Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses you attended.
LIBBY: Let's see, I think it was 90-something when I took Level I.
JS: Late 90s?
LIBBY: Yes, when I took Level 1. So I had already been teaching for quite a few
years. In my Level I, we sang lots of canons. I remember singing pieces from Volume
I that had text settings. And some of the rounds and canons too. I remember singing
pentatonic rounds that [my teacher] would write words to.
JS: That was in Level II, right? No, you had [teachers name] for Level 1. Okay.
LIBBY: (Singing) Sing, dance and play (so-mi-re-do).
JS: So [your Orff Schulwerk teacher] wrote the words and you guys sang?
LIBBY: Right. Then he would show us where they were in the volumes that he had
written the words. And then we sang some of the pieces that were pieces that were, I
think you know, like (Singing) Wee Willie Winkie. And, we sang pentatonic folk
songslots of Do and La pentatonic folk songs.
JS: Did you accompany the songs with Orff instruments?

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LIBBY: Yes.
JS: So, Im hearing you talk about canons and rounds and then songs that the teacher
wrote words for that were instrumental pieces from the volumes but you guys sang
them. And then, folk songsthat he had arranged, or that you guys had arranged?
LIBBY: We had composition assignments that included that. But the ones we did in
class were his arrangements often. I think sometimes we would do a folk song or a
play party or singing game. It didn't have anything to do with playing the instruments,
but was just singing. And then, we had a choral experience at the end of the day,
where all the levels got together and sang choral repertoire.
JS: Good. What about Level II?
LIBBY: Level II, we did the same thing but they were in the middle of splitting or
reconfiguring the course for modes or functional harmony, so we had two different
teachers. We were kind of going back and forth.
JS: That was your year? I remember when that happened.
LIBBY: Yes. So we had kind of a little bit of both years. So it was the same sort of
thing. We did a lot of folk song arrangementthings that had been written by the
instructor. We did some play-party singing games kinds of things, and we did canons
and rounds. Vocal expression, experimentation kinds of things with a lot of just vocal
sound and sound-carpeting things with speechinteresting vocal exercise kinds of
things that would be experimental sound with voice. But we started moving into the
modes and into hexatonic in Level II. Then, in Level III, it was lots of modes
singing songs in every single mode. Lots of different folk songs and discovering,
analyzing folk songs in the different modes, in tandem with the Instrumental work
that we were doing.
JS: Good. It sounds to me like singing was very well integrated into your levels. That
you experienced
LIBBY: Yes.
JS: Okay. Describe how you incorporate singing into your teaching of children.
LIBBY: That's what we do. We sing a lot of canons (They both laugh), and we sing a
lot of text settings from instrumental melody so that we can sing it or play it. Or
sometimes we sing it to learn how to play it or the other way around kind of playing
back and forth.
JS: And did you do that when you were in levels?

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LIBBY: Yes.
JS: Would you sometimes sing it to learn how to play it?
LIBBY: No.
JS: But that's one of the things you teach?
LIBBY: And then sometimes before we would share, the students decide how it's
going to go this time. The first A section is to play it, and then maybe the B section
happens, then this time the A section maybe we're going to sing it. So there are some
different ways that we can put it together at the endthey've got a lot of options.
We've got a lot of local play. I do a little bit of ear training and sight-singing kind of
practice. We do a lot of body solfge. I don't do the hand signs. We do body solfge,
and find ways to experiment with intervals. Sometimes when theyre playing
something, well stop and sing it to see if we can hear it accurately. Or a child will
play a very short melodic canon and we will try to sing it back to them. We sing folk
songs and do play- parties, but we don't do that with the instruments.
JS: So that's a separate thing?
LIBBY: It's a separate thing. If were singing a folk song, its either a cappella or its
with guitar. And well do other songs sometimes with instruments, but they're usually
created by the students or by me, and we do other part-singing or choral pieces, but I
don't have a lot of time. I don't have a choir, so we try to get it in one or two choral
pieces in the classroom, so that they have some experience with an octavo before they
go to middle school.
JS: So I have a couple of follow-up questions about this. One is going back to where
you said sometimes you sing a piece in order to learn how to play it. Talk with me
about the process of that. How does it begin? Do you start with the staff or is it by
rote?
LIBBY: It depends. It depends on the grade level and it depends on what we are
doing.
JS: Go through one possibility.
LIBBY: One possibility would be with third graders who are starting to work on the
full staff, the 5-line staffand they're doing so-mi-la kinds of stuff. We could sight-
sing something on the board that then becomes a song, and then once theyve played
it maybe weve improvised with it a little bit too. And finding different ways to sing
with it and turn it into a song and now we go find that same song on the instrument.
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We know how to sing it. Now can you find where's so, where's la? Now can you play
it? Because they already know how to sing it the intervals are there, so it's kind of ear
training intervallic relationship exercise. Can they find it and play it?
JS: So if they didn't start with the staff if they were going to learn it by rote how
would that look? If you used the voice.
LIBBY: Then it would often be echo imitation.
JS: Sometimes, singing it, learning to sing it by rote, by imitation. And then, how do
they find out? Maybe it's pentatonic? Is that possible?
LIBBY: Yes. It's often pentatonic. And we might be playing around and playing a
game with it, we might use our bodies to find the intervals while were singing it.
JS: So they've got a visual?
LIBBY: So they have a large muscle kinesthetic representation of it, so that the
phrasing in the melody is secure in a completely different way, so that when we
transfer it to the instruments there's a conservation of knowledge they can just apply
what they already know to a different medium.
JS: So they learned it vocally, they've maybe done it on their bodies, which is kind of
like a form of notation. Then when they get to the instruments do you let them maybe
find it out on their own?
LIBBY: Yes.
JS: And then they just share, maybe
LIBBY: Then they share, might be who can find this measure or this little part of the
phrase and then they explore it. They raise their hand if they think they've got it and
well listen to different ideas and see if they've come up with the same answer. Do
they agree? They all agree, so where do you think it starts? So there's sometimes an
analysis that happens.
JS: And during that you probably sing too. To review what it really sounds like.
LIBBY: Mm hmm. Lets sing it. Does Julie's idea match our song? So let's sing that
first part and listen to Julie's idea. Does it match? Almost. So, they self correct and so
there's some of that ear training and analysis.
JS: Good. And another follow-up question to this is when you were talking about
your own teacher education courses, your levels courses, you said that with (teacher
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name) and maybe even with [your two teachers names], you sang folk songs and
accompanied those with Orff instruments.
LIBBY: Yes.
JS: What made your decision to then go to the classroom and not? Because now you
said folk songs are separate from the Orff instruments.
LIBBY: They are. In my classroom. It's a personal choice of philosophy at folksongs

didn't originate with Orff instruments, they originated from spontaneous singing or
from having a guitar or a banjo or an autoharp or something and I'd like to preserve
the historical integrity of the folk song. The song can get lost so easily with Orff
instruments. They tend to get over-accompanied. Kids have a hard time singing and
playing at the same time the way it is. I think that the song gets lost and they don't all
work real well with the Orff instrument. The arranging just doesn't work very well.
So I just choose not to.
JS: This is a new insight. This is a first. But it's exciting, it's a really good insight.
LIBBY: I feel pretty strongly about that. I feel strongly about that in my classroom. I
don't judge other people's choice to teach the way they want to, but I think folk songs
just have their own place.
JS: Great. How do you incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your levels
courses? So what do you do? Your model was folk song orchestration. I mean, you
don't really do any class, so what do you teach?
LIBBY: The same thing I teach to my kids. So I don't teach folk songs with the Orff
instruments. I teach Level II ensemble; so we sing them to practice modes. So they
get it in their head and we do play parties and singing games, and we sing text
settings, and students write text settings from some of the instrumental melodies that
just lend themselves very naturally to vocal works. So we do singing in that way. But
we play a lot of instrumental melodies. If it's going to be a thick texture with the
instruments, then it's an instrumental piece. But we try to sing a lot and we do a little
bit of the practicing. When they are not getting something, we'll stop and sing it; now
play it. So that you can reach the vocalists and the instrumentalists equally. Because
there's different strengths and different learning styles sometimes doing it one way
versus the other will bring some of the other students along that were getting lost.
JS: So it's, again, you've mentioned earlier that sometimes singing is a way to get to
the instrumental part sometimes singing is the tool because it's part of the body that
gets you to the understanding. They have an aural understanding which means they
can now translate that.
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LIBBY: And they don't have to worry about which hand is going where or which note
theyre hitting; they can get really secure with the artistry of the song, hopefully
matching pitch and working on dynamics or some phrasing with their body in a
different way than when you're thinking about right or left and which hand is going
where or am I crossing.
JS: So, youve said that in your levels, when you teach Level II, you have folksongs
that they do separate from the Orff instruments. They sing and play the games. You
have instrumental pieces that you or the students write texts for. And earlier you'd
mentioned that, at least with the children, and Ill bet its the same with the adults, let
me know. But sometimes they will play a verse and then there is the B section and
then they sing the next verse and so forth.
LIBBY: Yes.
JS: Any other examples of singing in your levels courses; besides the folk songs and
the instrumental pieces that you have in your text that you teach?
LIBBY: Lots of canons.
JS: And part-songs?
LIBBY: Yes. Actually I do have a least one part-song.
JS: And how do you teach that?
LIBBY: That one, I put it up, I put the music up on the wall.
JS: Really? And they read it?
LIBBY: Yes. They do they sing it. There it is, sing it.
JS: With children you might teach the same piece. Would you put the music up on the
wall?
LIBBY: I wouldn't have them just read it. We would have to do some breakdown and
rote teaching of it. And sometimes with the choral repertoire you will have the visual
as the students are older for something to look at to follow. They get a little better at
doing that, but not until upper elementary or high school. We're not in the 5-line staff
until third grade. So, by fifth grade I want them to be able to follow, but I don't see
them often enough to expect them to be able to look at it and be able to sing it.
JS: Okay, great. Cecilia Wang did a study, that's really interesting, in which she took
the Kentucky Orff levels students and asked them she's done several studies with
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them. And, one of the things she did was, one of the things she noticed after a
questionnaire with them she followed some of them to the classroom and videotape
their teaching. One of the things she found was that these people who estimated that
they spend 50% of their time on singing, 50% of their time on playing instruments,
50% of their time on movement, and 50% on improvisation one of the conclusions
that she came to was it's not crazy for them to say that because often they're doing
more than one thing at the same time. So they're singing and improvising, or they are
singing and moving, or they're singing and playing instruments. So sometimes there's
a sense throughout all these interviews that singing can be a separate activity and
sometimes singing is something that we do in conjunction with other Orff media.
So you've talked about part-songs and canons and folk songs that for you are separate.
But not. Even though we might not think of it as an Orff Schulwerk activity, when
they sing and move to play a folk game, like Alabama Gals or something, they are
combining two media.
LIBBY: And sometimes when you process it, the process could be an Orff process.
To teach a folk song you don't have to have the instruments for it to be an Orff
process, even if it's a traditional folk song. So I still consider myself an Orff teacher
in the way I teach those folk songs.
JS: Good. So in your Orff Schulwerk teaching, how would you say you combine
singing with other media? Okay, so that's still Orff Schulwerk process, but when you
are using it with Orff instruments or with other media, how do you sometimes
combine those? What do you combine it with?
LIBBY: We do vocal improvisation, sometimes with just me playing a drum, and the
kids are singing over it and improvising. But then,
JS: What do they sing on? What syllable or?
LIBBY: I'm thinking of one particular lesson, we do a lot of speech improvisation

first based on what you might get in the mail with the song I Got a Letter this
Morning. And so, we sing in La pentatonic. And so, (speaking in rhythm) I got a
postcard. I got a magazine. Practice speaking different phrases to get the speech
down and then they start singing it. And so we do some improvisation.
JS: Singing on their own words?
LIBBY: Yesand in pentatonic. Sometimes we sing our recorder songs and then
play them or go back and forth. Its hard to isolate that because there are times when I
am teaching Level II, and Ill stop and say, What are we doing right now? And
well make a list of all the things that are happening simultaneously. There is a huge
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long list because it really does become so integrated after a while that you start doing
it naturally and you don't stop to pull it apart and it gets really blurry.
JS: Okay. Sometimes when they have a text to one of those instrumental pieces they
are probably accompanying themselves while they sing. Do you do that?
LIBBY: Yes. We've done that sometimes so that they can be playing and singing,
they can be dancing and singing. They can be alternating between playing recorder
and singing and going back and forth to reinforce melody. Sometimes some of those
things can be happening at the same time. Or singing and playing an unpitched
percussion instrument.
JS: Great. This is a question that I want I'm going to ask you about the proportion of
your teaching that is devoted to singing. So here is the real question. What proportion
of your teaching would you say is devoted to singing? If you can think of a different
way to answer that question, besides saying a percentage, talk about when you sing or
maybe it's related to the grade levels that you teach or something like that. How is
singing weighted in your classroom?
LIBBY: I think singing is very heavily weighted at the early elementary age.
Kindergarten, first grade, they don't have instrumental skills yet they are just
emerging, so the voice is the primary instrument. Vocal and movement and maybe a
bit of unpitched percussion, but voice is the primary mode. As they get older and
progress, it becomes a little more equally balanced. For fifth grade, instrumental
music making probably takes a little more priority in my time and planning and
sometimes I think I'm not singing enough but I still am kind of wrestling with finding
that magical balance. They can play such cool incredible stuff on recorder and
instrumental and they have movement and singing, and it's hard to fit those all in.
Continuation of Questions:
JS: Okay this is back to Libby, and were completing or finishing up from the full
tape that weve already got. So were just having our little last few questions. Libby,
we were talking about the primary reasons the teachers enroll in Orff class and you
talked about Word-of-mouth, and what they hear among the teachers and so forth.
LIBBY: I think also people who are looking for credit, for a lane change. People who
it's required for their degree program. People who have taken a chapter workshop or
like I did at national conference, where they just went to a session and said, I need to
learn more about this.
JS: Were getting close here because youve already answered. I think youve
answered this. Im going to ask it to be sure. Typically, what do you think adults
favorite activities are in your level courses? Did I ask that questions?
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LIBBY: Nope. If theyre singers, they like the singing. If theyre instrumentalists,
they like the playing. If theyre wind players, they like recorder. A few of them
maybe who have dance backgrounds like movement. They tend to gravitate to whats
comfortable at first as their favorite activity. Initially, anyway.
JS: Do you ever find that adults are resistant to any of the activities in the levels
courses?
LIBBY: Yes, absolutely.
JS: What are they resistant to?
LIBBY: Often movement, often improvisation or demonstrating skills in front of

peers, same as children.
JS: Thats it. On what factors do you base your decision on how youll incorporate
singing? What process do you use to decide how to incorporate singing?
LIBBY: I dont know.
JS: What influences on your decisions? To me, you choose a piece and if theres
singing in it, you sing.
LIBBY: Yeah, in the overall curriculum. I make sure I ask for a good balance
between the different media.
JS: Thats good. Some balance. So you think about that some when you are planning
lessons?
LIBBY: I do, and we are not just playing instruments all day and never sing in the
levels courses.
JS: Or never moving or never?
LIBBY: Right. I try to make sure were doing a lot of different things.
JS: Do you have anything else to add to this?
LIBBY: No.
JS: Thank you so very much.
LIBBY: You are welcome.

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JS: How do you incorporate singing into your teaching of children?
LIBBY: There are times that it might be almost on unit based. So, were trying to
integrate those things all the time for our curriculum, but there might be a period of
time were very heavily focused on singing and doing some intense work where
almost the whole class time might be singing, for a while.
JS: And thats all grades?
LIBBY: Especially third, fourth, fifth.
JS: So thats the upper grades.
LIBBY: The upper grades, which is where most of my time is spent now. So, like in
fifth grade, if were working on a choral piece, were going to be devoting a lot of
time to that. If were doing a big instrumental piece, our singing work would be a
little bit less. So it goes a little bit more almost by unit or piece, based on repertoire
choices, at that age. That make sense?
JS: Okay. Do you believe in, and I know, you know, as time goes, youre fairly new
to Orff-Schulwerk, but have you seen any changes in your time since youve been
involved in itin the focus on singing in Orff-Schulwerk in the United States?
LIBBY: I wonder sometimes, if its amy perception is just becoming more aware
of the diversity of cultures in the country, more than an actual shift?
JS: Maybe thats a better question. Thats a good question. Are there?
LIBBY: In my experience, but then as Ive continued in this work and become a
teacher educator for other teachers and knowing more about other courses, I think the
focus is different in different regions of the country. I would say for the course that I
started in, that I took my levels in, that choral component doesnt exist anymore. It
has become special topics where we sing as a community, but its not a choir, but it
feels more authentically Orff Schulwerk in what were doing now, where singing is
always incorporated, but were not sitting in chairs with an octavo like were in a
choir class. We are still doing Orff-Schulwerk. And the shift has been a little bit more
away from folk songs with the instruments. But folk songs still exist, cause some of
that still happens in that course, but I have become aware there are other courses
where very little folk song seems to happen and there seems to be less singing. And
therere some courses where it feels thats the primarysinging a folk song and then
playing it, accompanying it with Orff instruments is more of a primary mode of
teaching and learning in these courses. So, I think its geographic.
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JS: Good point. How would you describe the quality and preparation of the singing
voices of students in your levels courses? When the students come to you, and this
may be leading to a question that would really be easy to answer and I just need to do
itto look at the backgrounds of the studentsand are they mostly singers or mostly
instrumentalists. And my hunch is that a lot of people who are attracted to Orff
Schulwerk are instrumentalists. And even though, like you and me, there are a lot of
vocalists, too. But, anyway, whats the quality like when you teach canons and so
forth in your classes? How does it, whats the quality of their singing like?
LIBBY: Its fairly good. There are some instrumentalists, I think, that are scared to
sing and really intimated by it. My ensemble teaching happens in [state name], where
theres an incredibly strong choral tradition, and there are so many singers in good
choral programs that its fairly rare for us to have someone come in who really isnt
successful, at least to a certain degree. We tend to have fairly strong vocal skills in
our students. But comfort level with their voice is verya different story. Group
singing, fine, but make me sing by myself? No thank you. Then theres the quality
and the skill, you can see some of the differences.
JS: Well, thats all my questions.
LIBBY: Good.
JS: Do you have anything else you want to add about singing?
LIBBY: I just think its fascinating to talk about singing within the context of Orff-
Schulwerk, because sometimes Im asked if we ever sing. I think there is a missed
perception.
JS: Who asks you that question?
LIBBY: Kodly teachers. (Laughs.) Do you guys sing? Or there is an assumption

sometimes Ive heard people say that they think we dont do singing enough or that
we dont sing well. And I dont agree.
JS: Well, thats part of what Im looking at too, and what Im finding is that we do
sing all the time.
LIBBY: So, anything else?
LIBBY: No. Turn it off!
-----------------------------------------------------------
JS: This is Libby, Part II, and today is June 24, 2009, and we are doing some follow-
up questions to the interview that we did last week. So, Libby these are kind of
246
embedded in the original questions that I asked you, so after we talked about your
earliest memories of singing and the time with school and all that. So this kind goes
along with school.
LIBBY: Okay.
JS: Tell me about your vocal music teachers. The good, the bad, the ugly.
LIBBY: In school?
JS: Uh huh.. And you can go high school through college if you want.
LIBBY: Okay. So you dont want elementary school? You want me to start in high
school?
JS: Well, I think well, yeah, go ahead and start at elementary school. Thats fine.
LIBBY: Okay. Elementary school, I had sing-along songs, not a very good vocal
model, pounding at the piano. So, we had to sing over, a lot of shout singing, but we
had a really joyful time doing it. I remember it being really fun, but it wasnt very
pretty. We sang in the gymnasium, the whole school singing sing-along songs, I think
too much. I started choral singing in Junior high school, it was in 7th grade with Ms.
[teacher name], and we did typical, stereotypical for junior high octavos and loved it.
Worked on part of singing, worked on tone and articulation, really started building
some beginning solid choral skills there.
That program led to my high school program with [teacher name], who was not too
long ago the president of ACDA. A very, very esteemed choral program that he ran
for a long time. Hes done some writing too. We did a lot of college level choral lit
when I went to the University of [state] and joined the choral program there. A lot of
what was sang, I had are already done in high school. So, it was a very respected,
intense choral program, four-part or more major choral masterworks with guest artists
and orchestras brought in, or and our high school orchestra was also very good in
high school. Orchestra with accompanying with professionals support brought in, so
that we could do some of those very big pieces. I was in the Chamber Singers and in
the Concert Choir, and they also had a Womens Chorus and a freshmen chorus.
JS: Okay. Great! And in college?
LIBBY: In college, I didnt start singing in the choral program until my junior year
because I switched majors from instrumental to vocal.
JS: I did, too.

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LIBBY: When I switched, I joined the Womens Chorus and the Concert Choir.
JS: And the teaching?
LIBBY: It was fabulous. One of the choral teachers I had there, when I was teaching
a course at [university name], I saw his name on the door.
JS: Oh, my gosh!
LIBBY: You know, University of [state name], so it was a Big Ten school. So, its in
the School of Music, so it was a very big program. Wonderful literature.
JS: Still worked on articulation and phrasing, and
LIBBY: Absolutely. And sectionals and we had little vocal assessments, where we
come in and sing in small groups and had to have our parts test to make sure we knew
what we were doing. So, it was pretty serious and time intensive.
JS: Yeah. Okay. Great! Thank you. So we skipped ahead. What? Oh, your primary
instrument was voice, right?
LIBBY: Voice and viola.
JS: Okay. What was your favorite Music Education course in college, and why was it
your favorite? Just what were your Music Ed courses that you took? First of all, and
then what was your favorite?
LIBBY: We had just basic, introduction to music education and we had a basic Music
Ed course. Its such a long time ago, its hard to remember I know I had a
conducting class, a couple others, but basic music ed classes. Classroom instruments
was my favorite class, it was [well-known teacher/clinician] who taught it. And we
talked about that earlier.
JS: Oh, you mentioned that before. Yeah.
LIBBY: Where she took the title of Classroom Instruments and broadened it and
basically turned it into an Orff Schulwerk class. So that was my favorite. Because it
was, music was finally fun. It was positive and nurturing and encouraging, while
building skills. It didnt feel punitive or you know, Im just going to tell you what to
do and do it right, where my other classes felt more like that. So, it was joyful and
the integration of playing instruments and singingmy two majorsand movement,
which has been very, verythat was my favorite.
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JS: Okay. When you decided to enroll in levels courses, what was the thing that
attracted you most to the Orff approach?
LIBBY: The experience Id had as an undergrad in [my methods teachers class]. For
the same reasons Ive just stated, the integration of my favorite thingsmoving,
singing, dancing, playingdoing all of those things.
JS: Yeah.
LIBBY: I spent the first ten years of my career in an integrated art setting with young
children, and I was doing a lot of those kinds of things at [name of school] Center for
Music. I hadnt had the opportunity to really explore Orff Schulwerk but had been
very interested in undergrad, but life didnt allow me to pursue it any further. When
the conference came to [my city], AOSA conference, I took the IS course
JS: Introduction to Schulwerk.
LIBBY: Yes, I did, and fell absolutely in love with it, and signed up for my levels.
And then, after I took it, I took Level I, I applied as a graduate student to be an Orff
major in the program.
JS: So, it was the - the joy, and the, and what else?
LIBBY: The joy, the creativity, the student-centered work, where students can
develop an aesthetic sense and be artists from a young age, and where I could feel
like an artist as a teacher; because it gave me more flexibility to also keep creating
and feed my artist self while teaching others.
JS: Okay. When you recall your own levels, what kinds of things were the teachers
good at teaching? So let me say it in a different way. When you took your Orff levels,
what were the best things they taught, and maybe were there any things that they were
weaker at teaching?
LIBBY: I was so head over heels and love with Orff Schulwerk that it was kind of
like a kid with stars in their eyes. And I dont know if, its hard to think of anything
that wasnt as effective, because I was so enamored with the whole big picture. I
loved the recorder teacher. (They laugh.)
JS: You know, I was going to say, in a course like where you were, everybody is
assigned to their teaching because its what they do best.
LIBBY: Right.
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JS: So, its not like, everybody is not teaching everything. You know, I guess the
basic teachers do a little more of that than everybody else does. But, we are teaching
what our strengths are or we wouldnt be teaching.
LIBBY: Fabulous teaching, and I wouldnt complain about any teaching I had all the
way through all three of my levels.
JS: If I had been assigned to teach movement at [university name], you wouldnt feel
that way. You know, if [her movement teacher] had been assigned to teach
LIBBY: Recorder? (They laugh.)
LIBBY: By all means, I hate to use this clich, because I dont want she plays
recorder beautifully. But maybe that wouldnt have been her thing.
JS: Its out of her comfort level.
LIBBY: Yeah. And the reason [teacher name] taught singing was because thats what
[she] does.
JS: Right.
JS: So everyone was so great at what they did.
LIBBY: Yeah. What kinds of things were they not so good at teaching? Can you
think of anything that (Level I teacher) didnt teach well while she was teaching?
LIBBY: No. I never had her as a teacher.
JS: Oh, you didnt. You had (another Level I teacher)?
LIBBY: I had (teacher name).
JS: And was there anything he didnt teach well?
LIBBY: No.
JS: Okay.
LIBBY: If there was, I wasnt it in any place yet, as a student, to know it.
JS: Yeah.
LIBBY: So, I don't disagree with anybody.

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JS: To what extent do you think you emulate your own levels teachers? Are there
things that you saw there that you emulate?
LIBBY: Oh, absolutely!
JS: What kinds of things?
LIBBY: I think Ive pulled things from everyone. I think you cant help but emulate
your mentors when you see something effective or youve been really touched or
influenced by someone. It cant help but inform what you do and why you do things, I
think. Especially starting out, I would try to emulate, not copy lessons but try to be as
clear.
JS: But maybe you copy some lessons?
LIBBY: Oh, yeah. Absolutely! Or try to copy the idea but come up with my own
things to put in it, and so I try to emulate how to process something. Try to emulate
and by singing a canon, and am I teaching them the right way. Are we playing it in
the way barred instruments pieces were introduced or approached or broken down
and taking what I had witnessed and not only imitating it but then trying to recreate it
with my own ideas and to be as effective. At first it was material in Level I. I just
loved this stuff. In Level II, it was like, now I kind of want to know how to teach it. In
Level III, I really want to have my own ideas and learn how to break it down and be
independent.
JS: Okay. Thats good. When youre teaching children, what are your favorite
activities to teach? And you can, you know, you can be broad but Id like you to also,
maybe name a couple of your very favorite things you like to teach to kids. You know
how you look forward to something? Like, Oh, next week Im teaching this.
LIBBY: Yes!
JS: Okay, tell me. Your eyes are so bright. (Laughing)
LIBBY: I know. I love it. I love the first week of introducing recorders to the third
graders because its magical. We do all of this really silly goofy ritual stuff to learn
and its just playful magic and theyre so excited they can hardly contain themselves.
I love, in fourth grade, theres a little mallet piece that I wrote that we play and then
we move it through all of the different modes and then transposes so easily.
JS: Cool.
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LIBBY: Yeah. That they dont know what all of the modes are, but they get to hear
them, and they talk about it and they get so excited about the changes in sound and
figuring out what they want to do with it. Fifth grade, the Sword Dance, and thats
one that the kids beg for all year long, and theres a couple of other specific pieces out
of the volumes, one that they nicknamed Bumps in the Night and they say, Do we
get to play that this year?
JS: Which one is Bumps in the Night?
LIBBY: [Singing a well-known Aeolian piece] And their improvs are I love
Then come up with the spooky things which they love. I love I Got a Letter This
Morning, and they sing, when they do vocal improv stuff in fourth grade in February
grade because it works. It's one of the times I really can get vocal improvisation to
work with my kids and its always very exciting and I keep trying to figure out ways
to stretch that. And our end-of-the-year choral song in fifth grade
JS: End of the year?
LIBBY: This choral piece that [composer name] wrote for us. And this year hewe
sing at the end of every graduation, and this year he said, Oh, Im in town, Ill come
and play for you. So [composer name] accompanied for the 5th graders in a
graduation song that he wrote for them.
JS: Thats great.
LIBBY: I get excited about that, too.
JS: Okay. Now on the flip side, what do you not like to teach? What do you kind of
dread teaching? Is there something you have to teach and you dont really care to?
LIBBY: No, I can teach what I want to. I can define my own curriculum. When I
dont want to teach something, its one of a lesson thats tired. Thats kind of lost its
spark or if I havent planned effectively, then I dont look forward to it as much. I
dont feel as ready. Thats how I know its really tired. So its less a subject area and
more an energy/teacher issue.
JS: Do you ever - when youre about to present a workshop, do you ever look at your
notes and think, Uhh, I dont want to do that again.
LIBBY: Yes. (Laughs)

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JS: What kinds of, what pieces are those? What kinds of pieces? Because I know I did
that.
LIBBY: Yeah.
JS: I go, Oh, why did I leave that in there, I dont want to teach that piece again.
LIBBY: It's just usually something Ive been teaching for quite a while. And its not
fun when Im bored, and Ive been doing other things with my kids that are more far
interesting, but I havent changed my activities. If I havent created new things for a
while and Ive just been doing the same old stuff, thats when I intend to be the most
disenchanted with what I do. Oh yuck! I'm bored. I dont want to teach that again.
JS: Yeah.
LIBBY: And if I haven't had time to create something new, then I dont look forward
to teaching it, but I have to get through it until I have time to think of something new.
JS: What do children seem to enjoy the most when theyre being taught with the Orff
approach? So, I guess this could be your kids, but you could also be just in general.
What do you think children enjoy the most doing Orff approach?
LIBBY: My kids tell me they love playing instruments. They absolutely love playing
the instruments. When I have kids that transfer in from other schools; whether its,
you know, recorder or the barred instruments or the drums. They just love having a
chance to make music together with the instruments, because most of the time theyve
done singing in their previous schoolmaybe out of a book though, or something,
but they love to be able to play and they love to make stuff out up.
JS: So that would be a second thing. They like to (They speak at the same time to
say) create.
LIBBY: Yeah, and be able to have ideas. I would have some kids that they love that
we get to move around and then dance.
JS: So, it varies.
LIBBY: Yeah.
JS: And so you canyou know, converselywhat do they resist? What are they not
as interested in doing in the class? And what grade do you teach again?
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LIBBY: Third, fourth and fifth.
JS: Okay.
LIBBY: I have a few kids, always, that cant stand playing the recorder, usually
because theyre not very good at it or they dont put any time into it or theyve got
some fine motor issues. And they just kind of have a little meltdown or they'll freeze
up when it's time to play recorder. Thats the one I get the most push back on;
otherwise they do
JS: Are they resistant to movement?
LIBBY: No.
JS: Why do you think that is?
LIBBY: Because they've been moving since they were littlebecause they've grown
up with it. They were there the first year I was there. But weve brought them since
they were little, so theyre not really.
JS: Same way with singing probably?
LIBBY: Yeah, theyre fine.
JS: Theyve been singing since they were little. Every time they come probably.
LIBBY: Yep! And they know they have to sing solos for me sometimes. And therere
some who love it. Some of them get a little nervous about it, but they know theyre
going to do it, and its just
JS: Just what they do.
LIBBY: Yeah, we sing. We play little games. We sing back and forth one at a time, in
small groups. And, if someone is really worried about it with recorder or voice, they
can do it while Im with them in the office. They can come in and sing or play for me.
I dont want them to be freaked out about it or have a negative experience.
JS: Okay. Do the children in the classes you teach want to sing, and are they good at
singing?
LIBBY: Yes.
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JS: Why do you think this is so?
LIBBY: They like to sing, especially certain songs, if theres a song that weve done
that really strikes them, I can tell, because I hear it in the stairwell.
JS: Ill bet that [composer name] piece too, speaks to them.
LIBBY: Yes, they sing the [composer name] piece a lot. Ill hear it in the hallway. Or
Ill have a parent stop and say, Theyve come home singing this song and they wont
stop. Or Ill hear them singing on the playground at recess. Or humming in the
hallway or 'they'll go learn how to play it on the recorder, or Ill hear them
sometimesthere's a piano studio, for kids who take private piano lessons. And Ill
hear our mallet pieces or our vocal pieces sometimes coming out in their piano
lesson, because theyve gone home and figured out how to play it.
JS: Wow!
LIBBY: And thats when I know Ive got a good one.
JS: Thats great.
LIBBY: Thats fun.
JS: So why do you think that is? Do you think its, you said they start when theyre
little?
LIBBY: Yeah. They start when theyre little. Its the most successful one. I choose
the right text to either set the melody to, or I choose the right folk song or choral
piece for them, that clicks with them. If I pick something that I like but they dont
really like it isnt a good fit, but when it's a good fit and Ive been successful in
choosing repertoire. They love to sing it.
JS: Can you think of an example that something you chose but they didnt like?
LIBBY: My student teacher this past fall picked a song called [song title] the
[composer name] theme song?
JS: Okay.
LIBBY: They did not like it. They sang it, okay, sort of.
JS: But they werent into it?

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LIBBY: They did it because they liked her, but they didnt like the song. And then
they started singing some other things this spring and they said, Oh, at least were not
singing that [name] song. We hated that song.
JS: Sorry, Bob!
LIBBY: Yeah, they didn't like it? And I thought it was a great song, but they didnt
like it.
JS: Huh.
LIBBY: Oh, you asked if they sang well.
JS: Yeah.
LIBBY: Sometimes, when theyre good at it.
JS: Sometimes.
LIBBY: Sometimes. Some years are better than others. Its hard with twice a week to
balance the time. I can tell when I have not spent enough time singing. If Ive gotten
into doing too many instrumental things. Some classes sing better than others.
JS: That always the case.
LIBBY: Mm Hmm.
JS: Okay. Now, back to adults in your levels courses, what are your - when they come
to you, what are your expectations for their musical knowledge and their musical
skills? What do you expect them to be able to do when they come to you?
LIBBY: For ensemble?
JS: Well, I guess we could say either one. Lets say the ensemble first.
LIBBY: I teach Level II, so I certainly hope that they can, they have the theory skills
from Level I to be able to write, arrange, and analyze pentatonic, elemental music.
Sing in tune, and have basic mallet skill ability in the pentatonic range, fluent on
soprano recorder, emerging on alto recorder, and basic movement vocabulary and
comfort with movement. So that if I pull out a song or a new piece that has basic
simple parts to start with, I'm expecting that theyre just going to be able to jump in
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and do it. If theres some basic musicianship they're going to be able to take a text
and write it out rhythmically, well be able to develop a melody for it. And be able to
sing it. I expect them to be able to, at the start of Level II, instrumental recorder and
vocally improvise or perform melodies in pentatonic.
JS: How about in movement class? Whatlets say Level I?
LIBBY: Yeah.
JS: What do you expect?
LIBBY: That they show up--the second day after the first day. (They laugh.)
JS: Yeah.
LIBBY: That they come back, that theyre willing to try. It's such a different context,
with being the special teacher, a special subject teacher in the school setting, when
youre the movement teacher. So, if they take their shoes off and I hope theyre not
chewing gum, and that they participate and try, and show up every day.
JS: And maybe to keep a steady beat?
LIBBY: Oh, Im hoping they have a steady beat. But thats not always what I assume
when they come in.
JS: Okay. In your brief time as a levels teacher, do you find that music educators
knowledge and skills have changed in the last seven, eight, nine years; since youve
been teaching levels? Have their skills changed?
LIBBY: Its been about nine or ten.
JS: Yeah, nine or ten.
LIBBY: Its hard to say if their skills have changed, because mine can changed so
rapidly. Over that time, because the first few years as a levels teacher, I was just
figuring out my stuff. And then, it also depends geographically on the skills.
JS: Talk about that a little bit.
LIBBY: Well, as a movement teacher, teaching in the south, its far more baby steps.
Its far more limited experiences, could be because the experiences with movement
are more limited in general, with the students I see in the southern part of the country
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versus the northern part of the country. In part, I think, because of the religious
background of people.
Choral experience, vocal skills, you see in (her home state), we have such a rich vocal
tradition thats fairly strong, but I see the same thing in Texas. Theres such a strong
choral community in both of these states that, vocally, we can do a lot of things pretty
quickly. The most challenging thing which I dont think has ever changed is the fact
that classically-trained musicians struggle with the freedoms of Orff Schulwerk. And
I havent seen that change. Ive seen that would be pretty static with the lack of
creativity and the ability to create something, new. We're trained to follow the rules.
So, I havent seen a big shift in that. Thats been pretty consistent for 10 years.
JS: It definitely hasnt filtered into the applied lessons, you know? If may be showing
up now in methods classes, but its not going on in applied lessons yet. Theyre not
I dont think they very often have people improvise. It depends on the school. It
depends on the teacher, but its not very common.
Based on your experiences as an Orff Schulwerk teacher/educator, what are the

primary reasons that you think, music educators enroll in Orff classes? Why do they
come to us for Level I?
LIBBY: Word of mouth.
JS: Whats the word they get do you think?
LIBBY: Either they tell a colleague or a friend to take levels and tell them how much
fun it is and what they got out of it, and shared their experiences and talked there--
'You really need to do this because it was, you know, gave me X, Y or Z, it was so
much fun.
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Appendix F
Transcript of Interview with Peter
JS: Today is, what is today, June 16, 2009 and I'm talking with Peter, who is here at
[university name] teaching an Orff course and we are going to have an interview
about singing and Orff Schulwerk. So Peter, first I want to start with this question,
what are your earliest memories of singing?
PETER: Oh jeez. You know of course I guess elementary school. I'm trying to
remember. You know ideally, as a music teacher you would say I would remember
singing when I was little tiny, but I guess the earliest I remember really singing was
in Catholic school, kindergarten, first grade you know?
JS: What kinds of songs did you sing?
PETER: Well they were all Catholic nuns, Irish Catholic nuns, so we sang what was
that McNamara's Band. If the devil doesn't like it he can sit on a tack, and then
church songs. I guess that wouldn't really be a prime example, but it was back in the
era of the 70s when it was that transition to the kind of folky kind of Christian, Peace
is flowing like a river. Other than that, you know I can remember my mother used to
sing with me, you know, just little I love you in a bushel and a peck kind of stuff,
and so I remember those little songs.
JS: Did your father sing with you?
PETER: You know it was interesting, my dad never did sing with me, but my dad
would sing all the time. When he would exercise in the basement and he would have
his headphones on and he had a beautiful voice. He really sings well, or he used to,
and then when he took the headphones off and stopped working out, that was it. He
didn't sing at church. He had that whole thing of, Nah, I'm not doing that. He was
self-conscious or just in that way. He did like singing, but the minute he had his
headphones on exercising in the basement, he would sing at the top of his lungs. We
could hear him upstairs.
JS: So that was your childhood memories, what about once you were in school a little
further along, did you sing in Jr. High, upper elementary, high school?
PETER: Well, our general music class was all singing because again we were...
JS: But nothing before that?
PETER: Nothing before...

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JS: Were you in church choir or anything like that?
PETER: We didn't have church choir. No. I remember one time the music teacher set
up, I'm going to have you each sing, whatever it was, and we're going to have a
chorale, it's a select group and she told me I made a group. I was going to be in the
group. The group never existed, like we never did anything. I just remember thinking
the whole year, We are we going to do something with this, because I do remember
having to stand up in front of everyone and singled out to sing by myself, but no, we
would sing in church every Sunday, and our music class was pretty much devoted to
learning songs for church on Friday afternoons or Friday mornings whenever it was.
We would you know, just learn those songs. And then in middle school it became
choir. So it was basically the exact same class but now we were sitting on risers
instead of on the floor. And we got one trip a year where we would walk to the
nursing home and sing. We always did the same songs. Well, we had a Christmas one
where we would do Do You Hear What I Hear? It was always required. And then
we would sing something poppy. There was never anything so cool as being in choir.
JS: But you were in the choir.
PETER: Yeah, but everyone was. That was your general music in middle school, was
you were in choir. And so I remember I wanted to do other musical things. I wanted
to play an instrument, but it took a long time for me to figure out how to ask because I
first asked for clarinet. My mom said no, it was too squeaky. And then I asked for a
saxophone and she said it's too loudit's a horn. And then I said piano and she said,
that's a quiet one, you can do that. And so I quickly proved that it could be a very
loud instrument in the right hands.
JS: That's interesting. Okay, so no choir in high school, really.
PETER: In high school, I couldn't do choir because I was in jazz band and I was
playing for jazz band and they conflicted with one another.
JS: What was your instrument?
PETER: Piano. And so at that point I loved, I was just learning how to play jazz and
was so much more interested in that and there was one piano in the jazz band as
opposed to being you know, a boy in choir. There weren't as many boys in choir
anyway, but it was more like I want to play Jazz. And later on when it came time to
do the musical they recruited me to be the accompanist for the musical, so that
precluded any singing in the musical as well. So, I thought, I guess I'm just going to
play piano.
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JS: That's what you get for being a great pianist. What kinds of singing experiences
do you remember from your Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses? The ones you
attended...
PETER: Alright, well I mean certainly, I think there were a lot of them... this is at
University [name]. You know I remember as a think the case may be even now as a
teacher trainer, we did, of course, a lot in Level I, I remember. And Level I, that year,
remember it was the year, well it was one of the years that [teacher name] was that
end of the day choir, and so that was really something, to say, Oh, there is this whole
piece of it that we can take these elemental processes and apply them in different
ways to choral literature. So I do remember in that first year, the choir segment was
by far my favorite part of the day. I really looked forward every day to the choir being
there. So the next year when it was gone, I was really, I was disappointed a lot by that
and missed it. With regards to the class time, we spent a lot of time I think, singing in
Level I. A lot of that early childhood, that Level I material that is just based around
singing and singing games and...
JS: Call and chant.
PETER: Yeah, exactly. And getting the melody in at that level through a very
concrete way, we're going to sing it. It's in your brain now, you have to sing it to
know it. And so I felt looking back on it, I don't remember quite as many singing
opportunities in Level II. I do remember in Level III doing some singing specifically
because we were doing a lullaby and I remember the instructor saying, You know at
this point we're going to have the men stop singing, because this is a lullaby and you
really don't want men singing the lullaby, you want to hear women singing lullaby.
JS: Was that [teacher name]?
PETER: No, it was [another teacher name].
JS: Yeah.
PETER: And so I thought, Okay. And [my friend] was actually in the class and she
raised her hand and she took issue. She said, You know growing up, my father
always sang the lullabies. When I think of a lullaby, I think of a man singing it. It
quickly of course turned into a, Well that's fine but the women are going to sing it.
[Laughter] And so I do remember that very clearly. And then of course every year
there was always the discussion in pedagogy at some point, of, you know, As a man,
how do you sing in the classroom? Do you sing falsetto, do we use saying with a light
voice? So yeah, I feel like I was really the strongest year for singing, and then II and
III, it maybe wasn't quite as predominant.
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JS: Okay. All right well then we'll jump off from what you just said about, you know
do you use falsetto or do you use your regular changed voice when you sing, to talk
about what is the singing like when you work with children. How, let me say it again.
Describe how you incorporate singing into your teaching of children, and start with
do you use your changed voice or do you use falsetto.
PETER: Most often, I use my normal singing voice. I think for them, especially as
somebody who, you know, is not trained as a singer, I enjoy singing but I admit very
readily than I'm not, I don't have a trained voice that sounds lovely, to me anyway.
And so when I sing...
JS: Especially your falsetto?
PETER: Oh especially my falsetto. But so and I feel, I notice my range is not huge
and so when I'm singing with the children, I'll tell them right off the bat in
kindergarten, my voice is different than yours and it's almost just an unfinished
sentence, And it's all because... You're a full-grown man. Exactly. And so we
talk about that. I'm going to sound different and you're going to sing up, and then I
show them, I can sing in your voice. I used to be able to sing in your voice very well
but I grew up in my voice changed and so I can't sing there anymore, as well. I say,
I can try and I can show you, and I show them my falsetto and they laugh and I say,
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous doesn't it? And I say, That's why I'm going to sing in
my voice, and you have a hard job. You've got to listen and bring it up to the next
place where it would match. And you know kindergarten. If worse comes to worse,
Ill say, Okay, I'm going to sing it up there and I'm going to warn you it's going to
sound funny but this is where you should be in pitch but not tone. Don't match my
sound but match, you know match where I am. And so I'll sing it and they will laugh
and then usually that fixes it, but I only go there as a last resort when I'm singing with
the kids.
JS: Okay. So how do would you say, what are some of the ways you incorporate
singing into Otff Schulwerk when you teach children.
PETER: You know, I'll admit it's a challenge that I'm constantly trying to re-address
and see if I'm doing it well enough.
JS: How so? What do you mean it's a challenge?
PETER: You know it's very easy for me, as primarily an instrumentalist, to look at
the literature and say, Were just going to play this, and when we are learning
something to speak and say, Here's what we're going to do. So I've forced myself,
in the last three years, especially after going into my own school, to say, Okay. We
are now going to put our mallets down and everybody is going to sing the part they
were just playing. Looking at it and saying I try to incorporate it in warm-ups every
262
day, instrumental warm-ups every day, and say, Okay, we are going to play, Tommy
what'd you have for lunch? Peanut butter sandwich. Great, we are all going to play
peanut butter sandwich all the way with the instrument and you're going to stop at this
point, the E2, going to stop there because we don't want to get too high right now,
and so that when I try to mix and combine.
JS: They sing it?
PETER: They sing it while they are playing.
JS: How?
PETER: (Singing) (Do) Peanut butter sandwich, (Re) peanut butter sandwich.
JS: Okay.
PETER: (Mi) Peanut butter sandwich. So it's not a musical experience necessarily, or
an aesthetic experience, but the idea of just giving them that tool to help them explore
and to see them moving up of the instrument and tying that to their voice too. I've
found its helped them with their understanding of where high and low are on the
instrument, and then saying, Okay, great. We have warmed up our hands, we
warmed up our voices, now we can go and attack some of the things. I do better, I've
been more successful singing with little, with the younger grades. I've noticed in third
grade, fourth grade right in there, once I start working on recorder a whole lot, my
singing falls off and so this year, I tried to make sure that, I say, Okay great. We are
going to play it, now we're going to put our recorder down. Sing me what you've
played or let's sing it first and then try playing it.
So, but it's been tough to try to find, especially as the kids get older and we are
playing pieces that are more technically demanding at the bars, to say, Okay, what
are we singing? Are we still singing songs here? Then trying to make sure, the last
thing I've tried to go back to doing after being away from it for a couple of years is
just taking a day and saying, I'm taking all the first grades and we're doing a sing-
along today. Were all going to get together and just sing songs.
JS: So sometimes singing is kind of separate from Orff Schulwerk?
PETER: I would say at times it is because I have very clear curricular goals in regards
to harmony, melody and that type of thing and sometimes I want to sing a song that
doesn't fit those. Or I want them to just sing a song and have fun and not because it's
worth studying or not because it has a curricular goal, but we're going to sing the song
just because it's a great song. It's a lot of fun to sing. We're going to get together and
do it and it has really nothing to do with our curriculum other than we're singing in
tune, or singing in canon, singing parts or whatever it is.
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JS: But you do sing in canons and parts?
PETER: Oh yeah, oh definitely. Definitely.
JS: So when you're talking about the integration of singing into Orff Schulwerk
mostly what I've heard you talk about is that they sing the parts that they play. Do you
sometimes also have them sing folk songs that they accompany or is that not as
common?
PETER: I don't do many folk songs but what I do is, you know, either I will create
something, write words to one of the pieces in the volumes, you know that kind of
thing? Or this year we started experimenting with writing each person contributing
line and we set up a rhyme scheme and so everybody wrote a line of a poem and then
I took them and combined them. I just took all the 30 possibilities and created the
poem and then came back the next class and said, Here's the poem the class wrote.
Now let's take this thing and let's decide, this line and this line are going to be the
same type of melody. This line and this line And saying, Let's go improvise
some melodies. Let's create a song together. So we will get the songs that way for
the stories. Or it's just based around being of, its first grade, it's April so we are going
to do a spring song, so...
JS: Okay. So what are some examples of the music, well, I think you've already
answered this, some examples of the music the children sing in class. So we talk
about canons and rounds, we talked about fun more like camp type songs?
PETER: Exactly. You take out the guitar and just play.
JS: Then songs that they create.
PETER: Songs that they have created or songs that I have created for them for a
specific purpose. That's where I tie in, I would say I most often tie in the curricular
singing, meaning singing that is tied to a specific harmonic, melodic, rhythmic
curricular goal. Here is that note, let's sing this line. Here is what we are adding in or
we are studying mi re do, let's sing this song. So it's those situations where we might
sing, we might spend some singing within an Orff Schulwerk specific setting, if that
makes sense.
JS: Okay, alright good. This may be the same answer you just gave, but how do you
incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your levels classes?
PETER: You know, I would say really the exact same things. Ideally that's what we're
shooting for here is to provide a model of, This is what we do with kids. Not you
know, Here's how I would teach this if the kids were 40, but this is what we do.
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JS: So when they are, so that means they start the day with the canon and then during
the class they may use the voice, I'm saying this to just reiterate, and let me know if
this is not right, they use the voice sometimes to learn an instrumental piece or they
use the instrumental piece and then they sing it after they've learned it on
instruments? (PETER: Mm hm.) Not very many folk songs that you're doing right
now, but they may create songs.
PETER: They may use the voice as another option for a texture in the song, even if
they are just singing on a neutral syllable, just to add one more color in there. You
know, I guess the way I view my folksong repertoire or folk/sing-along camp, those,
just anything, almost the way do a tutti at the end of the day. You know, we are going
to put the instruments away for now. Let's do something else here. Let's experiment.
Let's experience music in a different way and we are going to sing while we do a
dance.
JS: This is a little bit off but I want to ask this. Do you use a curriculum, a melodic
sequence of teaching pitches at your school? Is that something that you work on?
PETER: In other words...
JS: Like in first grade, do they learn so, mi, and la?
PETER: Correct.
JS: And so when they learn so, mi, and la do they learned primarily through the
instruments or do they learn primarily through their voice?
PETER: Voices. We start with singing and really establish that there, just to establish
that feel of what high and low are, then we combine with the concrete Curwen signs
to give you just a little more tangible feel. And you know, it's one of those double-
edged kind of things because they're doing it because they are motivated to get to the
instruments. They want to be able to play the instrument.
JS: That melody.
PETER: Exactly, that's why we're doing it so you will see where this goes on the
instrument. So that's their motivation to get there, but my motivation to hold the
instruments is so that they will sing more in tune, and that they get more excited
about the singing. So we start there... I'm sorry, go ahead.
JS: No, you go ahead.

265
PETER: No, I was just going to say, we start In first grade, we don't get to go to the
instruments for a while because we work on singing, for probably for the first two
months, almost 3 months of school. We work on singing and keeping a steady beat,
and then once we've established those things then we go to the instruments. And at
first we only play the drone while were singing the melody and then once we
become comfortable and confident at keeping that steady beat, then it's time to,
Okay, let's start playing around with How will we play that melody? How would
we figure that out?
JS: So, when they get to third grade or fourth grade and by third grade do they know
do, re, mi, so, lathe pentatonic?
PETER: They know the full pentatonic. They don't know it as a solfge.
JS: Okay, so does it look different in third grade? You mentioned earlier the third
grade, maybe you stop singing quite as much. So are they less likely to sing the song
before they play on the instruments, when they get the pentatonic?
PETER: I would say because we've worked so hard to get into the recorder by that
point they are more motivated now to they want to automatically start applying this
new tool to reading the music and saying, I want to play this recorder. I use the
singing, again to motivate, Okay, for you to know what it sounds like, you've got to
sing it first and then well play it. For a lot of them they counter with, I do better at
hearing it when I played first on this instrument, because I know this is a G. I know
this is an E or a C.
JS: Of course they do. They don't have to think about it too much.
PETER: Yeah, exactly, I pop my fingers down and I know that that's the note. And
that's where, again, I've struggled with saying, Okay I really want them to develop
these recorder skills.
JS: What grade do you teach through?
PETER: Fifth.
JS: Fifth grade. So in fifth grade they know the diatonic scale.
PETER: Correct.
JS: The modes?
PETER: They know the modes by the end.

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JS: I should say diatonic scales. So do they sight-sing? Do they ever sing those first or
do they just go straight to playing it?
PETER: You know, by fifth-grade they have gone pretty muchthey do go very
quickly to playing it. A lot of the reason is because a lot of melodies that they're
working on at that point or recorder-based or instrumentally-based. The kids, by the
way, about the time that I was saying here is that I start struggling with getting that
singing in every day in third grade is when we start choir too. So those are the kids
that are coming for extra singing.
JS: At a different time?
PETER: At seven o'clock in the morning.
JS: So when you teach Level II to adults, would you just list some examples of songs
that you teach or times when they sing.
PETER: Sure.
JS: Then I'm going to get off of this. I'm almost done with this subject.
PETER: No, that's fine. We model it again through the warm-ups every day. We do a
lot of the neutral singing. We do a lot of, Let's take this melody now, and just sing
me this melody as with a goal of (and similarly with the kids, though it is more
successful here) is the idea of, Let's sing this melody again, and sing it really
expressively. It's not just pushing a button here and pushing a button. Sing me the
line. Like tell me a story while you're singing it. So we use that.
JS: When you say neutral syllables.
PETER: La, loo.
JS: But it's a song, do you eventually add words to it? Or it's just a melody?
PETER: Sometimes. For example, this afternoon were going to start pentatonic
modes just a little bit. And so, I taken one of the Spielbuch pieces and just composed
words for it. We'll use it in that setting of, We're going to sing the song first to get
this new sound into our head. Rather than just starting it from a, almost an analytical
standpoint of, if this is 5, go to 1 and then what's our scale pattern going to be. So just
sing the song. Let's not worry too much right now about where the relationships are.
Just sing me the song and now let's throw the instruments in, and explore what's
happening here.
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JS: All right. So there's definitely, I'm hearing a sense of that you want them to have
it in their ears before they go to the instruments.
PETER: Yes, I think what ties in with is, and I always think of [teacher name]
telling me, I think it was curriculum class, the importance of having children express
in their words what's going on. Ask them what they did, why did they do that. If they
can put it in words they really understand it. I guess I feel the same way about singing
it, it's that old axiom of if you really know it, you can sing it. If you can't sing it you
don't really know what yet.
JS: Great. Thank you. Some of the research that I've read suggests that there are
times when Orff Schulwerk students just sing and other times when they sing in
combination with other media. Is that the case in your teaching? If so, are you going
to say yes, probably
PETER: I'm trying to think.
JS: What I mean by that is sometimes they just sing. Like you described with
cannons and rounds or choir, just kind of a separate thing. It may not be really Orff
Schulwerk. It may be a separate thing that we do. And then, other times I think what
I've read is that Orff Schulwerk teachers sing and move, or they sing while they're
playing instruments, or they sing while they are What is the other medium?
(Laughter) Not usually speak and sing but maybe one section is spoken and one
section is sung or especially more during stories. There's a speech piece and then
there's a song as well. So how would you say -- first of all, do you sometimes
combine singing with movement?
PETER: Sure. Absolutely.
JS: If so, what are some examples of how -- I want to know two things. We don't
need to enter this one because youve already told me how singing is taught by itself.
What are some examples of how singing is taught in combination with the other
media.
PETER: With regards to -- I mean instrumental accompaniment, just that. Using it to

accompany their voices.
JS: You said that about 1st grade. That you do chants and play a drone.
PETER: Exactly. First grade, second grade, third grade. Exactly. Even later on, the
fourth graders, like I said it's a texture. We just say they need to play the song another
time because or this piece another time because the dancers have written so many
different variations, we need one more time. And we've used all our combinations or
we need another combination more accurately. What can we do, let's just loo it. I'm
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like great. Let's only have drums and a loo. Or let's drop the accompaniment out for
that section and just loo for that one time. The other one being -- I don't know, what
you said is pretty accurate is that when it's truly an Orff Schulwerk setting, when
we're singing Alabama Gal, is that really an Orff Schulwerk setting, or are we just
folk dancing?
JS: You could see any teacher do thatdo Alabama Gal with a game.
PETER: Yes, and it just becomes exactly that, a singing game. So we'll use it with
especially beginning recorder comes to mind. When we only know three pitches to
say, Okay, we're going to sing a song and write a countermelody. So half the class
sings and half the class plays their three-note countermelody and then we switch
places.
JS: Good. Okay. Great. Sometimes, but again we can say, Is this Orff Schulwerk or
not. I know I've seen you sometimes teach a canon and they make up movement to
go with it. They do the movement and canon as well. But again, that's not necessarily
just unique to Orff Schulwerk.
JS: No. It's one of those things that as I've talked to our students here about that.
Sometimes it's not about me. It's just good teaching sometimes. It doesn't matter if
they're using instruments to do it, if they're combining several media and just learning
it in a new way or making it that much more meaningful by individualizing it through
whatever means necessary. They could be using a gamelon, you know. Is it now Orff
Schulwerk? If they change the instrument is something that's not a xylophone or
traditional, our little 13-bar xylophone.
JS: When we play Renaissance recorder music, that's not technically Orff Schulwerk.
Okay. I'm really kind of getting a sense of that the voice is one of the instruments in
the instrumentarium.
PETER: You know, it's a tool. It's another tool at our disposal and it's one that I think
sometimes It was always my impression when I first started this work, Orff
teachers got a little bit of a bad rap for not using that instrument [voice] to its fullest
potential. But, I think it's one of those things that sometimes it just takes some
reminding yourself and I could use this now. Admittedly, there is for some a self-
conscious piece attached to, I can blame my recorder for being cracked, I can blame
the bar for being dried out, I can't fault, if my instrument is bad it's very personal.
JS: But you don't think your instrument is bad?
PETER: No.
JS: Good. (Laughter) Because you have a great instrument.

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PETER: I can see how for some people that self-consciousness is tied into that. If it's
external to me, I can make the fault somebody else's. But if I make a mistake, and it's
okay to make mistakes, but some people have a hard time admitting that.
JS: Okay. What proportion of your teaching would you say is devoted to singing? I
don't know, I don't want you to try to estimate a percentage or anything but how
would you describe -- let's say fourth grade. Let's take kind of a middle grade and say
in fourth grade what proportion, and I don't know how we can estimate that. However
you want to estimate that.
PETER: Of course I think the answer is never enough, but then it's always that
balance of if I do more of this one of my going to do less of. I would say it's a
significant portion because even if it's not something, as I said before, something
aesthetically amazing, if they're confused about something I will say, Okay, just sing
me the pitches. Even as unmusical as that can be just sing me the pitch names. It's
funny how some kids that just helps. They learn the song and it goes. B B A A
That's great. That's your song. Those are your words. Now it's in your head so let's
go for it. And a lot of times I will have them just sing it while they play it. Challenge
them to say can you make sure that what you are singing is happening at the same
time you're playing. Is your voice following your hand? Are your hands following
your voice or are they right together?
JS: I think that's interesting too because in some ways Orff Schulwerk teachers use
the voice as a tool, like you said, it's a means to an end. Other times, it's the product,
it's for the performance. Maybe we sing more than some people do. I don't know. We
use it in so many different ways.
PETER: I think that is, it's also one of those pieces of is the performance the final, is
that the end of the assessment. Or is it what we got because we may have been doing
a ton of singing up to it but then for the performance said, We're not going to sing
this section, were going to leave this for the recorders, even though we'd been
singing it to get it into our head, to internalize it. So if somebody just saw the final
performance they might say, You don't do any singing. And I would say, I just did
three months of singing on this piece. You just didn't hear it.
JS: Okay. Great. You believe that singing in Orff Schulwerk and in the United States
has changed over the years since Orff Schulwerk came to the United States? If so,
how?
PETER: That's a tough one because since I wasn't here when it came, here being
professionally, actually know. Here. On the planet.
JS: You weren't here. You were a twinkle in your father's eye.
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PETER: Exactly. Based on what I've studied and what I've read, I think two things
have happened. I think, first of all, Orff Schulwerk initially had a little bit of a stigma
of that you just play songs or play pieces and don't sing songs. So I think people
ramped that up. They have started to sing more. I think at the same time, one of the
things that's happened is in our culture, singing, especially children's songs, nursery
rhymes, all these games, have waned and have fallen aside. At the same time that we,
as music educators, have tried to ramp up the singing of all these songs, at home and
in outside life the singing has fallen off. So I don't know. It would be interesting to
see.
JS: So it may be systemic of our culture more than it is of Orff Schulwerk .
PETER: You know, I think so because just looking at how many songs people used to
know. Again, it may be the good old days were always good kind of a thing where
you look and it's a little idyllic in the past. It seems that a lot of people used to know a
lot more songs. Now, I was just saying to somebody else the other day I just started a
song with the kids (singing) All around the cobbler's bench, and they have nothing,
just nothing to do with it. Don't you know Pop Goes the Weasel? No. I went
(singing) Dum, dum, dum, dum dum. Oh yeah, we know that. So you know the
final phrase. Just a little catch. So, yeah.
JS: That's interesting.
PETER: The last thing that I think ties into that is my own job is I think the culture
has changed where kids know lots of songs but I don't know them. They know lots of
songs from cartoons, SpongeBob and whatever the heck the shows are and I just don't
know them. I haven't kept up with them because I still know the traditional, what I
perceive as the traditional songs. So that's another piece for it.
JS: The definition of traditional is changing so fast. What is it? Our culture is
changing so quickly.
Okay, this is the last question. How would you describe a quality and preparation of
the singing voices of the students in your levels courses? And this is just, I want you
to think about a broad, you know, all the years that you've taught and the workshops
that you've done. How is the singing? Supposedly, they've had preparation similar to
yours and we didn't talk about your teacher education courses. We may go back to
that. Your general methods classes in college. So we may go back to that in a minute.
Supposedly, they've had those experiences too. How well have they been prepared?
PETER: I guess I will be openly hypocrite about what I said earlier about my voice
being untrained and that sometimes leaving me feeling and a bit of a disadvantage. In
some of the same ways that I haven't had the training of expanding my range or
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developing my tone, I feel like at timessometimes our students as singers are over-
trained. They know how to control the broad O and develop a huge sound and in a
very developed, appropriate adult way. But when it comes to making the sound of an
eight-year-old, it's not there.
JS: Model.
PETER: Exactly. So when they sing for an eight-year-old I don't know if an eight
year old would try to model that, echo that, imitate that or if that's one of the things --
sometimes they become nervous. They don't know how to deal with the giggles.
Laughter, she sounds like an opera lady or he sounds like -- you know. So I think
there is that piece of it, it may just be in a levels training course where you're
surrounded by other adults and a little bit of bravado or ego. Ego kicks in and you've
got to rise to levels because there have been times when we are singing in the atrium
and all of a sudden you've got some coloratura trying to do Down by the Hanky-
Panky. (Laughter) I think, Stop! So I think there is a lot of good training of
musicians but sometimes it's a matter of, You need to sing with children now, and
you need to model for them what a child sounds like.
JS: Okay. All right. Let's go backwards for just a second. So this really will be the last
question, I think. Tell me whatbecause it's sort of related to this. We can maybe
guess that those coloraturas were in their college classesprobably took voice
lessons and so forth, but in the general methods class what do you do?
PETER: With singing in particular?
JS: Yes.
PETER: I can recall almost nothing about what I did in methods class as a singer. I
remember my methods classes covering my week of Orff Schulwerk , my week of
Kodly. I remember spending a lot of time talking about some of the nitty-gritties of
attendance and grade books and things like that. I will admit, and I thought of this
before, one of the reasons I guess I wanted to become a teacher trainer of these
courses is I felt so ill-prepared when I left my undergraduate. I can recognize the
demands placed on teachers at university level to say, I've got all these things to
cover and how am I going to get these kids through all this material and out and
prepared in four years and all of these things. So that's a challenge. But at the same
time, as I said before, I didn't feel prepared to go teach elementary school. I felt like
they had done a very good job of teaching me how to go direct a high school choir or
a high school band. I felt really good about those things. Then, I started realizing as I
was thinking about -- first of all, I loved elementary and I wanted to teach there. So
that was convenient because I started thinking about it, for every high school there are
three or four middle schools and for every middle school there are three or four or
five elementary schools. So that means there is potentially 16 or 20 or 23 or 24
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elementary jobs for every one high school. And I thought, Chances are you're going
to end up in an elementary school. So you should kind of know what you're going to
do. I had no understanding of curriculum or appropriateness or anything. I really did
feel overwhelmed, remembering my first year, I remember thinking every Friday I
would do the same ridiculous happy dance because I just thought I made it through
another week. I don't know if I can do this for the next 30 years. So in many ways the
Orff Schulwerk training program saved me. It changed me.
Singing, I remember as a music major I had to be in choir and that was actually, I've
never really thought of this, that was my first choir since sixth grade or seventh grade.
As a college student, stepping into choir and saying, Oh. I've got to sing now in an
ensemble. So that was my first and I was required to take a couple of semesters of
voice lessons. That was it.
JS: You don't remember singing in your methods class?
PETER: The only thing I remember specifically using my voice for was[my
elementary methods teacher] was such a sweet man, he was just a saint. The first day
he did, 2, 4, 6, 8, Meet Me at the Garden Gate game. I remember his manner and he
was modeling this gentle sweet childlike way. I thought, That's what it means to
teach children and that's how you teach little children. It's not that I'm going to
impart wisdom to you, it's we're going to sit and play together. So I guess I carried
that away and I've tried to model that in my singing in its own indirect way. I don't
remember a ton of singing in my methods classes. Again, we were focused so much
on when you teach high school choir. I remember singing like that. I remember,
Here's how to teach a Kyrie or how to direct a Kyrie. We're going to sing all
these things in four parts, but I don't remember singing the song, like a play party.
JS: Wow. Okay. Anything else you want to say about?
PETER: I don't think so.
JS: I hope I've asked all the right questions so that I can find interesting information.
I think you've given me a lot of good inside so thank you very much.
PETER: Thank you.
JS: Hi, again, Peter. My committee took a look at my questions and had a few
questions that they wanted me to add. So that's why.
PETER: Okay.
JS: And generally speaking, they're embedded among the other questions in here.
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PETER: Okay.
JS: So what I'm going to do is just kind of put it in context and then ask you a
question. So we had talked about your memories of singing, we talked about school
and so forth. And we've talked about this a little but maybe not as much as this
question is asking. Tell me about your remind me, were you in chorus in high
school?
PETER: No. No, I had to choose between that and jazz band.
JS: Okay, so you were in jazz band. And by the way, I need to say this is Peter. Our
supplemental questions. Today is June 24 and we're just adding on to what weve
already got. All right, so did you have a vocal music, a chorus teacher? Did you ever
have-- in school?
PETER: Not per se a chorus teacher; until college, when I was in an ensemble then.
Because in high school, again, I wasn't in choir because it conflicted with jazz band at
times. Before that, I was in church sorry, I was --in Catholic school and we always
had to prepare things for church on Friday mornings or whenever it was. So our
music teacher would teach us songs for that and we would sit on risers but it never
felt like a real choral class -- looking back on it, it really was just a general music
kind of a class. There wasn't a whole lot dedicated to part singing. It was pretty much
one of these songs and sing in unison, maybe a canon or two.
JS: Okay. So tell me about your choral directors. What characteristics did you think
were helpful and good examples of good teaching and maybe what were not
examples of good teaching.
PETER: You know, well because when you say choral teacher, I immediately go to
that first time in college when I had to be in that ensemble.
JS: Good, that's fine.
PETER: And that was really something to be, as a piano player, that was really the
first time in a while that I had been in a room with quite that many other musicians.
The biggest groups I'd really been with were really jazz bands. And so, I do
remember it wasn't specific to the choral teaching, just good teaching because he was
very charismatic. Actually I still keep in touch with him because I enjoyed learning
from him so much and respected him so much. But charismatic, commanding, very
efficient I remember that. I remember just watching a rehearsal go by and thinking,
Wow this is just a well-planned out. Clear... That was always impressive how
clearly he could enunciate what he was looking for. He could just really put it in
perfect terms. And get the results. He had that nice balance between being friendly
and commanding. You know, he wasn't a friend, it was clear that after rehearsal I
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wasn't going to go up and talk to him and hang out with him. But he was always
smiling, and that made me comfortable. It made me comfortable enough to take risks
and audition for a solo once in a while and try that kind of stuff. You know, I wasn't
as trained as most anybody else in the room. So yes, just all those. The other piece
being knowledgeable. When we were learning a piece he would say if you listen to
this recording of this piece by this choir you're going to hear, this style of choir would
sing this piece in a very different way from a period standpoint what would be
appropriate performance practice. It was a nice balance of all those things.
JS: And do you remember musically like his choral instruction, his vocal instruction?
Do you remember things he told you? Like how to make it sound better?
PETER: You know, I remember a lot of very clear directions on phrasing and
breathing, kind of stuff. I don't remember a ton about tone and him trying to shape
tone. But I guess I would equate some of that to it being at a university, and he was
kind of assuming at that point a lot of us had had that kind of training. And I
remember thinking to myself I don't know what to do. There was one point when a
friend of mine told me, Look it's really cool if you hold the music up in front of you,
you can really hear yourself. I didn't realize at the time what he was saying. I was
like Yeah, I get it because the sound would bounce back. Dork, it's just physics.
Exactly. Then I was like Oh I got you. I could maybe be able to listen to myself a
little more here, instead of just singing my heart out.
JS: So that was one of the other choristers?
PETER: Bob Cross. I can still remember his name. Bob was right next to me. And
Bob was a brilliant singer. That was his nice way of saying, You're not quite right.
You may be a little flat on that one. You might want to tune it up. So we didn't work
a whole lot on those things because like I said those people everyone else I think had
a handle on it.
JS: You'd be surprised at how much... college choruses need help. And so I don't
know. Maybe it's just something you don't remember.
PETER: Actually. Now I am remembering he had a real affinity for sing-along style.
JS: Okay.
PETER: Exactly. So I do actually remember working on a total matching of tone a

little bit. But it was also, I was not in the top choral group. I was just in the men's
group. So I think part of it was his realization of what the groups purpose was. And
so, he worked on it to some degree but also recognized, this is maybe not where my
time is best spent. Let's work on phrasing. Let's develop the musicianship and
musicality in other ways could be more effective in the short term.
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JS: Great, thank you Peter. Now were going to skip ahead. We're already in college
so another question about college level. What was your favorite music education
course? First of all, you might list music education courses, that you can remember,
and then which was your favorite and why?
PETER: Okay. I had to take, in my undergraduate, I remember taking the elementary

strings methods, middle school band and string methods. Of course all the brass the
various brass class, percussion class and all those. You know, do you want my least
or most.
JS: Why do you tell me bothyour most favorite and least favorite.
PETER: Okay. My least favorite, I remember very clearly. Because it was middle
school band and orchestra. And I remember we bought the huge Standards of
Excellence book and we studied it and talked about how to get these things up and
running. As a pianist, it just wasn't interesting to me and it wasn't what I saw myself
doing.
And so, I thought maybe this isn't where my time is best spent. But, what most
irritated me was the teacher was this doctoral student, and he was teaching this class
and telling us all about his experiences. And, finally one day, I asked, and I wasn't
trying to be at all offensive, So tell me how long did you teach in the school you're
talking about? He said Well, I was there two years. And I remember thinking,
Okay, and then, not being so tactful, I said, or not trying to be, I said 'So, what else
have you taught?' I was curious, So, tell me more. I want to know about other
schools, other experiences. That was it. So I thought, Oh were learning how to
teach these things from somebody who taught for two years.
Conversely, my favorite course, that I was always taking at the same time, was
elementary methods. And I mentioned before, [my teacher], he was this wonderful
man who was still teaching at the lab school. So there was this huge credibility there
that I thought, This guy knows what he's talking about. He's been doing it forever.
And even his manner, when he just spoke to you so gentle and so calm and playful
and I mean it was just To this day he is such a model in what I do.
JS: So did you go to observe him teaching children at the Lab school?
PETER: Oh yes.
JS: Isn't that great?

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PETER: It was wonderful. I remember thinking, You have the perfect job in the
world. You teach at a lab school part time and you're working with children and
youre coming up here and telling me all about it.
JS: It really is the perfect job.
PETER: It really is. And then, it was sad actually, the year I graduated he passed
away. And then shortly after that, the lab school closed, unrelated. But they closed
down the lab school, and just said, Can't afford it anymore.
Yeah, so musically speaking, that of course any time we were in a methods class
where we were learning a new instrument that was just enjoyable because it was all of
us at the same level. Each of us kind of accomplished in our own instruments and
then all of a sudden you're sitting there holding a trumpet with no idea what to do. So
that was just enjoyable from a peer standpoint of, God, we're awful at this.
JS: Okay. When you decided to enroll in levels courses, what was the thing that
attracted you most about the Orff approach? What was the thing that attracted you to
it? How did you decide to take it?
PETER: When I did my elementary methods-- we spent a week in Orff and a week in
Kodly.
JS: With [your methods teacher]?
PETER: Yeah. And actually he brought in-- his wife was big, at the time, an officer
muckety-muck in the Rocky Mountain Chapter. So she came in and one day she
brought her instrumentarium in, and we all got to play. It didn't really affect me that
much. I just thought thats cute, whatever. And at this point I'm still keep thinking,
I'm teaching high school. This is cute, but I'm not doing this. And I did my student
teaching in high school and thought, Yeah, this is going to be my thing.
JS: But it was band?
PETER: It was actually choir.
JS: Oh, high school choir.
PETER: Choir. Yeah. And I thought, This is fun. I didn't love it, but I thought, It's
great. It'll be my job and I'll just take care of it. And then I did my elementary later,
and it was just a kind of twist of fate that I was supposed to go to a woman who is
kind of known as a general music specialist. She just kind of did it all. And she
borrowed from here and here and here. And she had some sort of episode just before
student teaching and she could not take me. It was some sort of yeah it was a
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breakdown of some sort. She really was not fit to take a student teacher. And I think
she actually stopped teaching for a little while too.
JS: So you went to [cooperating teacher]]?
PETER: Exactly. They said, We put you with this Orff woman instead. That's
exactly what they said, this Orff woman. (Laughing) And at the time, all I
remember was I could remember at some point within my elementary methods, I'm
saying, The Orff people, they're kind of like a cult. (Laughing) So in my mind now,
I'm going to student teach with the Moonies, and I thought, This is awful. And I
thought, This is going to be terrible. I'm going to do these 13 weeks, or whatever it
is, with this Orff woman. She'll have me wearing a purple sweat suit with matching
tennies and I'll get on the spaceship at the end of the trip. And so I went in with a lot
of apprehension. Very guarded. And within the first couple of days, it was a perfect
match. Her personality is very jovial and she likes to be funny and make jokes and I
kind of enjoy that. And so, we just clicked immediately. So that let my guard down
and, all of a sudden we're improvising. For this guy who spent his whole high school
career only playing in jazz band, this is for me, I love this improvising thing.
And so, it was really that experience that shored it up. I said I love this. This is what
I want, and I didn't know that until really late, late, late in my college career. I spent
my whole college career thinking, I'm teaching high school. That's what everybody
wants to do. So that's what really made me want to teach Orff levels; not teach, but
take Orff levels.
JS: So it was really the improvisation that made you the most excited about it?
PETER: That's what first got me. That was the hook. That's where we improvised and
I thought, This was kind of fun that we're just kind of sitting around improvising.
And then it was all the other stuff. The kids making the music, and playing, and
dancing and of course, the instruments. And I just, it was the whole package, of all
the other things that were being brought in. Were doing drama and there was poetry
and writing involved and dancing around and things I didn't really spend much time
doing. It's certainly not in my own elementary experience.
JS: So would you say that's still what draws you to it?
PETER: Yes, and you know it was one of those things that when I was doing it
Within the first couple of weeks I went to a workshop and another woman, Sandy
Lazat, who is still teaching in the area, she said Oh, you need to do this because it's
so much more fun than teaching high school. I was still thinking like, Yeah, this is
fun, I enjoy it. She said, You don't get to be creative in high school and write your
own plays like this. I remember thinking at the time Yeah, but that sounds like a lot
of work. I don't really know if I'm ready to sign up for writing my own plays. And
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the more I got into it I thought, No, this actually does suit me. That's why decided
to go take my levels.
JS: So how long did you teach before you decided to go to levels?
PETER: I did one year on my own.
JS: You had just finished your first year?
PETER: Yeah and the only reason was that the year? Yes. I had finished college
and didn't have any money so I couldn't go take levels yet. And I thought to myself,
Maybe I should teach a year without it and see how it goes. And it was a train
wreck, it was just awful. It was really a disaster. I remember thinking to myself,
There's no way I'm going to do this for the next 30 years, I cant. Because once I
did my student teaching experience all over againI replicated those 13 weeks in the
first 13 weeks of the school yearand I remember thinking about October, I'm out
of stuff. I've got nothing else.
And so I was doing the same lessons for first and second grade, the same lesson for
third and fourth grade and the same lesson for fifth and sixth grade. Knowing full
well that the next year I was out of luck again because those kids had already done
that lesson. And just thinking, I'll have to deal with that next year. Let's get through
this year. And I went and started taking the levels.
JS: So how do you change the second year?
PETER: It was still pretty bad. (They laugh.) It was still pretty awful, but I think I
had a better appreciation for how awful it was. And I could see where my plan was. I
thought, Okay, now I'm going to start thinking about how to develop this into a
curriculum, instead of just because I started offthey handed me, when I got my
first job, they handed me a copy of the standards and said, Here you go. Here's what
you have to teach. Well, they didn't tell me anything. These aren't lessons. These are
broad concepts, but I don't know how to do this.
And so, I bought Janes book and Arvidas book and started using them the way they
say not to, right in the beginning, and started drawing lessons right out of them.
Lets just start figuring this out. So about the time I was starting to get my head
wrapped around what a curriculum might look like, I got hired at [name] School. So
that part became a lot more concrete.
JS: Because they have a very specific curriculum.
PETER: Yeah. Exactly.

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JS: Okay. When you recall your own levels teachers, what kinds of things were they
very good at teaching? And what kind of things maybe-- I don't know, I know who
your levels teachers were, but what would you say were some of the things that they
were working with? Because it varies. We're not equally good at teaching everything.
PETER: You know, I think that was one of the strengths of the program that I went
throughat the time I went through, especially. Because at the time when I went to
[the university] and not to compare it at all with what it is today. But it was, I think,
the largest faculty in the country. It was a huge faculty.
JS: 12.
PETER: Yeah. It was a big group of people. And I remember I didn't interact with all
of them, but I remember watching and noticing that everybody had a piece that they
brought to the puzzle. And a strength. And so, even within our Level I, I was in [one
teachers] group and [my friend] was in [another teachers] group and I remember, at
the end of the day, talking to people and other sections and saying, What did you
learn? How did you learn it? And we were doing different pieces, different ways
still getting to the same place. But learning them in very different ways, and so really
wanting that opportunity to interact with the other teachers. And then, of course I had
you for recorderI was in the low group (smiles). And there was a strength of
everybody having their own set of skills that they were really talented at. And what I
didn't know then...
JS: So be specific about it.
PETER: Okay. For example, [my teacher] had this way of justit was justI hate
to say mathematical because that's not fair, and to say its analytical But [my
teacher], for someone like me, who's very analytical, [my teacher] made it very easy
for me to see, Heres where this fits. Here's why we do it, and here's where it goes in
the next step. I loved that piece about her. [my teacher] was also able to balance that
with being playful in her own way. [my teacher] also has this wonderful way of
scaring me. I was scared the heck of [my teacher]. Oh my god I was terrified of [my
teacher].
JS: Really? Amazing.
PETER: I was sure she hated me. And because we all deal with nerves our own way,
and mine being sarcasm and silliness, and so I would rattle off a one-liner and [my
teacher] got it, but she would keep teaching. I love that about her, but in my mind I
just thought, Oh I just did it again. This woman hates you. Stop talking.
And then [my teacher] had a very different thing going on with his whole My
impression of him as a young person then was that he was doing more of this He
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was very grounded in tradition. In humanity. Very human, something centric.

Human- centric; terrible word. Human-centric. This communal piece, as you put it.
You know, I loved When you are teaching your part, I felt very safe for somebody
who had never blown in an instrument. Like it was not my thing to have to worry
about breathing, too. I would just would move my fingers. And so this piece of, you
know... I remember doing I've been to Haarlem, I've been to Dover. I remember
doing that lesson so clearly. I was just thinking, Okay, good. It was a very safe way
of getting us into improvising and developing tone, and it really made me want to
learn to play the instrument so much better, because you made it so welcoming.
[Teacher name] carries just exuberance and energy all the time. And so there's this
piece that, when she said, Take your shoes off the first day I don't do that, and
I had a hole in my sock. I can't. I can't. And so, she kind of shoved us in. You're going
to sink or swim. Like I said, there was this Each person Those were a lot of the
personalities that I was interacting with.
JS: Okay. To what extent do you think you emulate those qualities and which ones?
PETER: You know, I spent a long time just trying to figure out who I was as a
teacher. I think it's natural in everyones life. You first, after your student teaching,
you become that person. And so I was with [my cooperating teacher] for 13 weeks,
and using her phrases and using her gestures and things like that. Even using her
jokes at some points.
And so, it took awhile to kind of get that. And then when I went to [Name] School all
of a sudden I began a group of six and seeing [teacher] teaching a certain way and
[another teacher] teaching a different way and all of my colleagues just trying to
figure out. Okay, where do I fit in here?
So, I think because I taught in that group of six teachers, it really did force me to find
kind of who I am on my own. And sometimes I've laughed or been struck that it
seems [fellow teacher] and I have a lot of similar approaches to things, but at the
same time I've been pretty happy with just saying, No, I'm not [my fellow teacher].
And so...
JS: Do you use some of the activities that you learned in your levels courses? Do you
use any of those? I'm sure you use the volumes pieces that you were taught. Do you
still emulate some of the activities that you learned?
PETER: Yeah, yeah, I see what you're asking. I would have to say yes. But I don't
know why. I think to some extent were all kind of the whole field of education is a
little bit thievery. Everybody sees it, it's a wonderful way to get into this, I'm going to
do this. I'm going to start trying this out. So in some ways, I think I have nothing
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that's mine. I just had taken everything I've seen and digested it and become my own
version of all those kind of things. But I don't know what they are. I couldn't say that I
teach this particular thing because it's how I saw [my teacher] do it.
JS: Okay, yeah, good. Let's see. When you're teaching children what are your
favorite activities to teach and then, what are your least favorite activities to teach?
PETER: As a gross overgeneralization and a cheat on the answer, I love teaching

anything where they're all laughing. That could be us all doing a dance, or it could be
a theoretical study, where were just being ridiculous and assigning personalities to
the little things theyre interacting in the study.
I guess, getting more specific, I love teaching anything where they're really making
music and enjoying what they're doing. Even if that making music if they are
moving and we're just doing a dance and they're being truly musical.
The thing I dislike the most is sometimes actually it's an unfortunate side part of my
job, it's the whole preparation, drill, practice, rehearse, doing it until it's just not fun.
And knowing
JS: Prepare for a program or something?
PETER: Exactly. Knowing that once it's there, it's going to be wonderful. But it's that
hard work up to it when the kids are getting tired and I'm frustrated and it's just not
coming together. That's my least favorite stuff. You know, my initial reaction what I
was going to say I dislike the theoretical piece on having to teach a concept of this is
what it is, here's how it works, let's practice and drills.
But in its own way I do enjoy those-- that doing something new this is exciting and
it's going to be really hard and we're going to be really bad at it, and that's okay.
You're going to mess it up will do it again. You might get it next time.
JS: Can you think of a specific activity that you always look forward to? Every year
you think Oh good. Next week, I get to teach this.
PETER: Sure. Fifth grade we do sword dances every year. I tried to start a tradition
every year for each grade and now fifth grade we alternate between the Rakes of
Marlow and the North Skelton, and then Two in the Buckets. We just kind of do
a three-year... That way... I always look forward to that because they use that the kids
now view it as this rite of passage. Oh, this is the fifth grade thing, we finally get to
do this.
JS: Tradition.
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PETER: Yeah, exactly. And that I'm trusting them with thissword. Ooh. And
they view it as hard. It is hard, but it's always fun it is to see. No matter who they are,
they're excited about that. So that's always something I look forward to.
JS: One more favorite activity.
PETER: One more. The excitement of that first day of recorder. That's fun stuff and
that's a great example of something that some people say Oh I hate this day.
Because there is that first moment of the tone. And that excitement of just seeing
it all happen, and again, the rite of passage. I'm a third-grader I get my recorder
today. We're going to play this thing, and you know, that's exciting, and if you get
hung up on that sadness, of that tone and that bumming you out, that's unfortunate.
Stop focusing on that. Focus on that wonderful moment up to it.
JS: Okay, good. Let's see. What do children seem to enjoy the most when they're
being taught with the Orff approach? There may be some similarities.
PETER: I think so. But I think in a more global sense it's the whole choice. It's the
command and control they have. To say just little things, We're going to do this both
ways. Which way do you want to start? Let's do it this way. Okay, great. We're going
to do it because he wants to. Then those choices or, Great, we've got all these
different parts. What do you want to do with the form? Tell me what we're going to
do first. I want to sing it first. Great, we are singing it the first time. What's the
next time? And just going around. So it's those pieces.
JS: The choice. What do you think they like the least in your classroom?
PETER: That's easy. Work. Yeah, I think our culture, and our kids in particular,
because they're the youngest representatives in who will become the next version or
incarnation of our culture. They've become so used to or so accustomed to it coming
easy and immediate gratification, and the fact that they can be a guitar hero in five
minutes by pressing four or five colored buttons or whatever it is.
In their minds, they think it's going to be that easy. I can play this song and I'll sound
amazing in just one and then when they get that recorder the first time, and they
blow into it and it sounds terrible, and I say, It's not, you know, or I say, Okay
great. Try that again. And it still stinks, and by the end of the period they still can't
do it. And when I tell them things like, This isn't going to come in the next two days.
This is going to take you a couple weeks to get, and it may even a make it longer than
that. They don't want that, it's hard for them to understand that they have to really
stick with it and it's going to take awhile.
JS: But when you're teaching a piece don't they sometimes enjoy the work?
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PETER: Oh no. The work can be fun and we try to make a fun. But it's-- I think for a
lot of them, it's that immediate piece. They don't get with one within one or two tries
it will often be, This is too hard. Or one of the things I immediately counter with, is
that, my kids are very quick to say, This is hard, and I will say, Youre right, it's
really hard. That's why we didn't do it last year when you were in the second grade.
There's a reason.
JS: Okay, alright. Do the children in the classes you teach like to sing? Are they good
at singing and why you think this is so or not so?
PETER: I think they like to sing. I think they like to sing when it's on their terms. If I
give them something-- I think it's just like anything else, I think if it's something that's
pushing them outside their comfort zone they don't like it anymore. It takes a little
work to get them to like it.
JS: Who's more comfortable and who's less comfortable? Is there any kind of a
pattern?
PETER: You know, the gut reaction there is to say the girls are more comfortable
with the singing. That would be probably supported by the fact that by the choir that
out of 100 kids there's probably 25 boys in the choir. But when you look at those
boys, they are not I mean they are rough-and-tumble whats that called?club
baseball boys. I don't have just any particular type of kid in choir.
They all like singing silly songs. They want to do sing-along songs they want to sing,
they actually enjoy singing patriotic songs quite a bit. Surprising because to get them
to sing something slower and maybe a higher range they shy away from it, but they'll
sing The Star-Spangled Bannerridiculous range. And so-- yeah, it's a bit of a
challenge.
But I think again, just like with any of the other stuff, some of its in the presentation.
And that's going back to [name], my choir teacher in college, who had this ability,
I'm excited about this and I'm going to model it for you and we're going to have fun
and it's no big deal. Just don't make a big deal about the singing, and we just jump
in.
JS: Are they good it? Does your choir sound good?
PETER: I think so. I mean, I'm happy with how they sound. I think it's a little bit of a
relative judgment.
JS: Absolutely.
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PETER: Somebody else would listen to my choir and probably say, You don't have
them singing in perfect unison, or Their tone is a little brash. Or whatever.
Somebody else would probably listen and say, Oh my gosh. I wish I had kids that
sang with that much volume.
JS: Do they all match pitch?
PETER: Yes.
JS: In your choir?
PETER: Yes.
JS: Is it an auditioned choir?
PETER: No, but by the end, because I'm pretty clear in choir, we have a talk at the
beginning about that I'm going to find a nice way to let you know.
JS: And draw it along.
PETER: And at the beginning of the year we have a few that don't match. By the
end, this year, I think everybody was matching.
JS: When you're teaching adults in levels courses, what are the expectations for the
kinds of musical knowledge and skills they'll already have, before they meet you the
first time? What things? You can just list some things you expect? Just assume
theyre gonna be able to do.
PETER: It varies though, I think, from course to course. For example, in [state], we
have a very strong contingent of classroom teachers because they are the specials
programs, the musical programs were killed and so classroom teachers are
responsible for teaching general music. And consequently, we get people who don't
have musical degrees, sometimes in [state].
Here, I would say in general, as a rule, I would say my expectations are a working
knowledge of musical forms, basic theoretical concepts. I don't expect necessarily
too, I expect them to have some recorder skills. But I don't expect people before they
come in to have recorder skills. It may be unfair. I try to hold them to the standard
that I felt like I had to have when I came in. Supposedly, people here are graduates of
a college or university, holding a degree in music. So if you don't understand how to
read the notes on a staff, or if you're making counting errors, these are bad things. If
your homework comes in and you have notes written in the wrong place on a staff,
incomplete measures, that kind of stuff is unacceptable. But I expect them to have a
basic understanding of general theoretical concepts.
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JS: Okay, all right.
PETER: And were you just talking theoretically? Or you were talking performance-
wise, right?
JS: Well, it could be performance-wise because its skills also. Its musical
knowledge and skills. So singing, moving, playing instruments; what do you expect?
PETER: I expect because, maybe some people will come in and not have a lot of
experience with moving, as I didn'tor recorder. Then it becomes a matter of
willingnesswilling to take risks, to do the same things we're asking the kids to do
on a daily basis, and to get in there and do it. The only other thing I was going to say
is Oh! Sometimes it's an issue of processing speed. How fast can you break this
down and get it rolling. It's such a short class.
JS: I'm going to ask this even though it's a little bit later. I'm going to ask a follow-up
question. Do you ever find that adult students are resistant to any of the activities in
levels courses?
PETER: Yes. Absolutely.
JS: Which ones?
PETER: I think it depends. I think some people are really resistant to The two
most common are movement and recorder. Those are the two that are generally the
furthest out of their comfort zone. It's not something they had a lot of work doing.
The freedom of moving is scary for a lot of people. Then, the technical challenge of a
recorder I think can be very frustrating to people, who are used to being good at
things. Then all of a sudden, they're a beginner again, and it's very hard. For other
people, I've seen a little bit of resistanceand they're insecure. It all comes back to
insecurity, I thinkbut, written assignments. If I find something wrong or if there's
something wrong in the assignment pointing it out and then their defenses go up, and
resistance kicks in. I don't understand why we're having to do this. I don't
understand why you think this is important. Somebody once said, This takes all the
joy out of the music for me. Why do we have to do this?
JS: The writing?
PETER: Yes. I didn't become a musician because I love theory. I became a

musician because I love making music. Well, we all love making music but if 'you're
going to teach it you have to understand how it works.
JS: Okay, great. Now how long have you taught levels courses, Peter?
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PETER: I apprenticed [university name], I believe, in 2001, so this is my eighth year

here. But I think seventh technically, I think.
JS: As a teacher. Okay. During that time, and it's a short time, do you think
you've seen any changes in music educators knowledge and skills?
PETER: You know, I don't think so.
JS: No better, no worse.
PETER: I think is pretty much been a constant.
JS: Based on your experience as an Orff teacher, what do you think are the primary
reasons that music educators come to take an Orff levels course? Why do they come?
PETER: I think there's a couple of different things at work. I think some people are
using it for horizontal movement on a pay scale, and I understand that. I think some
are being shipped to a job they go from a high school band position and they're
picking up some middle school general music, and they are looking for some tools. I
think some are at a point where they been teaching general music or they're going into
it and saying either, I think I need some skills, or they went to a workshop and said,
This is a lot of fun. I want to learn more about this, and I want to do more of this.
JS: So why Orff Schulwerk instead of Kodly?
PETER: That's a great question. I've actually heard some people say, This worked
out better for my schedule. I did this because these were the two weeks I had free,
and I can't take Kodly. That was a Level I. So, that would make sense. I've heard
that. Somebody who didn't know a whole lot about it.
I think, going back to my own experiences, it's just kind of what speaks to you. I
think if you had any experience in one or the other, that would help you be drawn
more towards taking that training. And maybe its who you know.
When I took my levels, I went to the people I knew and said, Where should I go?
And showed them all lists of different courses. So I think other people lean on other
professionals and say, What should I go do next and how should I get more
training? And maybe theyre led to an Orff course over a Kodly course.
JS: Typically, what are adults favorite activities in levels training, in levels courses?
What do they like the most?
PETER: Again I really think it really does vary from person to person.
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JS: But can you look at it as an overall again, just like when you teach children the
specific activity that you know they're going to love.
PETER: Anything that involves having fun and just making music. So it could be
something like yesterday, with the sword dance, and just being all in a big room and
learning a dance and having fun with it. They love that. The other thing they love is
after we learned all the parts and putting a big piece togetherWe did the Dorian
Dance at the end of the day yesterday.and just having that moment of, Wow!
We're doing this all together in this huge form. So, it's those big experience that they
really seem to latch onto the most.
JS: Okay, all right. Is there anything else you want to add?
PETER: I don't think so.
JS: No? Okay. Alright, then I think were done. Thank you.
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Appendix G
Transcript of Interview with Robert
JS: Robert, what I'm gonna do is ask you a bunch of questions and just let you talk
about these things and then I'll transcribe the interviews and code them and come up
with things I hope that are representative of everybody I've interviewed. So, do I have
your permission to record the interview? You could see it going around right there.
ROBERT: Yes you do. There it is.
JS: So great! This is Robert. Today is June 17, 2009 and we're gonna talk about
singing today.
ROBERT: Uh oh. Noooo! (Laughing)
JS: (Laughing) Just singing kind of in general, but a lot as it relates to Orff Schulwerk
too. So the first question I have for you is, What are your earliest memories of
singing?
ROBERT: Elementary school, general music class once a week, when I was in maybe
1st through 3rd grade. But then, as was typical in the early 60s, because I had started
playing trombone, I was in the band, I didnt have general music anymore, so I
stopped singing. It was kind of weird. That's the way they used to do it. You didnt
get general music and band. It was one or the other. So I stopped singing and sang in
church on Sundays.
JS: Like in the congregation?
ROBERT: In the congregation, and also I joined the youth choir or maybe just
because my parents wanted me to. I didn't like it very much. So that was my singing.
JS: You were in youth choir in junior high?
ROBERT: In junior, no. Well yes, for a little bit in church, but in school in junior
high, I had no singing because, again, I was in band. And so I didnt have general
music. It's funny I never really thought about it until you asked me this question, but I
had very little singing in upper elementary and junior high. It wasnt till high school
when I started singing again.
JS: You started singing again when you're in high school.
ROBERT: That could explain a lot. (Laughing)

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JS: So what about high school?
ROBERT: In high school, my high school was 10th grade to 12th grade, as opposed to
9th to 12th, so it's just three years. I went to a big high school where you could pick
music theory for three years a full-year course and I did because I loved it. A big
component of it was sight- singing. And we sang from the Melodia book. Do you
know the Melodia book? (JS: No) I think it was copyrighted in 1905. I still use it in
my theory class at one of my schools because it's great sight-singing. Theyre all by
step and it's just a great way to help you.
I started doing it and I realized that, although I wasnt a good singer, that I could
sight-read, that I had whatever it takes to sight-read. And the theory teacher was also
the choir director, and he said, You guys should join the chorus. I thought, I dont
want to do chorus because I played trombone in the marching band. He said, But
you're accurate singers. You'd be great section leaders. So I did. So, I joined the high
school chorus and I loved it. I wasnt good enough to sing in the Madrigal group. I
couldnt do that because I dont think I have a good voice, but I could sing in the
chorus and I really enjoyed it.
JS: So what kind of music did you sing in the chorus?
ROBERT: Standard high school repertoire. I mean, Glorias and American folk
material and all of the stuff thats kind of a choir repertoire.
JS: Okay, so before school, you dont remember singing at home with your parents or
anything?
ROBERT: Actually I do. My father loved to sing and he always had a music playing
Southern gospel, just kinds of folk songs. I remember we sang The Wabash
Cannonball a lot in bed. Like, wed sit there, and hed bring the album cover that
had the words on the back, and the album wouldnt be playing. He'd just come to the
bed and, instead of reading me a story, and wed sing songs, and look at the words. I
was too young to read it first, but he was doing it just to make sure he would read the
words and probably also to show me the words to help me with that. And so, I
remember my father singing a lot. He had a good bass voice and in church, I
remember thinking, Hes not singing the melody because he was harmonizing,
singing harmony.
JS: That's great. Anything else from childhood? Did your mom sing to you?
ROBERT: Not one time that I recall. I don't know if she didnt have a good voice or
didnt like to; but no.
290
JS: A lot of people had a lot of different experiences in college because some people
had voice lessons and choir, and then we all got to sing in solfge class and in ear
training class and general music methods. So tell me what are your experiences of
singing were in college?
ROBERT: It was really good because as I was going through high school
JS: Remind me of where you were.
ROBERT: I was at [name] University, back then it was [city name] State College, and
it started off as a normal school, so a teacher's college, and people went there for one
of two reasons, even in the 70s, they went there either to become a music teacher or
a PE teacher. Like, all these teacher focuses.
JS: A music teacher or a PE?
ROBERT: A music teacher or a PE teacher. Thats the two biggest things they did. I
mean there were also people who were also majoring in business, but that wasnt
what the draw of the school was. About mid to end of my high school career, so to
speak, I learned that I could sight-read, but I that didnt have a good voice. It just
really became apparent to me.
JS: Tell me why did you think you didnt have a good voice?
ROBERT: Good question. When I was younger, I just figured people sang and I
didnt think about it.
JS: Everybody sings.
ROBERT: Yeah, you see that and then when I was in the 9th grade, my girlfriend had
a really nice voice and I would play the piano and accompany her in talent shows.
And thats where I started thinking, Oh so we're not all great created equal. And
then in high school, there were people who really had good voices and I started to
really know, Okay, some instruments are better than others, in terms of the vocal
instrument and then it never occurred to me that I wasnt a very good singer. It wasnt
that I was put down. If anything, I was encouraged by my friends and my very much
by my theory/choir teacher. It was like, Just sing. It's fine.
So then in college, because I was a general music major, I was required to take, first it
was class voice, I think for two semesters and then private lessons, not to make me a
singer, but just if you're going to teach music, you need to sing as best as you can, so
it helped you. I thought that was wonderful, that I, as a non-singer, had all this
attention. Maybe they changed the program because they knew how bad I was, but
then also you're required to sing in choruses. So I was required to sing in the mens
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chorus and in the mixed chorus and I loved that especially because they're all music
majors. Half of the choruses were voice majors. You're a singer, so you wouldn't
appreciate this, but when you're not a singer and you're able to sing in a group of
really good singers, you feel so lucky because the group sounds great and I loved it
and I was not in awe or envious of my friends who sang, but I, obviously there's
nothing more natural than the voice. You can practice all you want; if you dont have
a great instrument, it's gonna get a little bit better, but it's not gonna be fabulous. And
so, I just kind of knew, this is my voice and I was just so grateful to the sing with
them, because I loved to sing. I really love to sing. So that was college for me.
JS: What about in general music methods class? What kinds of things did you sing
there?
ROBERT: I dont have a very clear memory of general methods. There was one
semester of elementary and one semester of upper elementary or high school,
whatever they would call it. I dont recall that we did much singing in those classes.
But yet, the school was very well-known for music ed. For example, I had a great
introduction to Orff Schulwerk, to Kodly, to Dalcroze. I was really grateful for it. It
guided the course of my life. So I'm sure we were singing some songs or we opened a
series of books and sang a song, but the focus was more on teaching than it was
singing.
JS: So maybe, reading out of the book and then
ROBERT: Yea, and, How would you teach this song? Yea Learning for the first
time, you sing the whole thing, then you sing one phrase and they sing it back. But
the focus was on the pedagogy, not on singing per se.
JS: Then lets go one step further and talk to me about what kind of singing
experiences do you remember from the Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses you
attended? Where did you do Level I?
ROBERT: Ah. This is great! I did all my levels at [university name] in [city name].
JS: So was that [teacher]?
ROBERT: It was [teacher] my first year, [teacher name], uh, [first name] I forget
her last night. She was local recorder teacher. So even back then, often the recorder
teacher was somebody local. And my first memory of, every day after lunch, all the
levels would come together and sing canons. And, [teacher] and [teacher], of course,
endless canons. I was truly in awe of their memories. [teacher] would do one, and
depending on what the theme of that was, it was about a bird or whatever, in the
morning they would say, Oh, how about this one? And some of them were
hilarious, some of them were a bit bawdy and I'd never sung canons before; I mean,
292
I'm sure in methods in college, a little bit. But every day, all these canons. I loved it
so much. Again, people were singing. It sounded great. I'm not a great singer but I
was able to participate and thats where I learned that the canons were good things to
sing with the kids. It's funny to think there was a time when I didn't know that. But I
just didn't, I had to be taught that. So that was my first memory of singing.
Second memory was, I really only have two strong memories, was my Level III. [My
teacher] came that year, for the first time and was the movement teacher. Before that
was [teacher name]. I'm sorry, it was [teacher], and then [teacher name], and then it
was [teacher]. And so [teacher] taught us movement but he also, I think, had an hour
a day of singing. That was his thing. We all got together and I dont remember if it
was in the morning or what, but he was just singing and he also knew, not just a lot of
canons, but part-songs that he would teach us. Some of them were religious And he
had a beautiful voice and we became good friends. He was my teacher for sure, but
he was not even the end of the first week, when was saying, Lets go get a couple of
drinks. And I just really hung out with him a lot.
He said to me, I'm gonna give you a voice lesson. In one hour, I can improve your
singing. This was on a Thursday night. It wouldve been the third Thursday because
the courses were three weeks and we were out drinking and talking, and so we were
having this voice lesson, like Friday morning before class, but I was too hung over.
So, I come to classI was hung over for class, but I missed before [the voice lesson],
and he just glared at me, like he was not pleased with me because he was there early.
They were singing, and I didnt make it. Jesus, what a kid I was and what an adult he
was, even though we were hanging out. So those are my memories of singing.
JS: So you never had the voice lesson?
ROBERT: I never had it.
JS: Okay, so you talked about, just wanna recap here, you talked about the time after
lunch when you all got together and sang canons and part-songs. You talked about the
time when [teacher], when he had an hour a day. Were there songs, was their singing
incorporated into basic?
ROBERT: I'm sure there was. I had great experiences with [teacher] in basic and
JS: Do you remember singing and playing at the same time?
ROBERT: Exactly, sure because we were looking at materials from the volumes
primarily, and so there was a lot singing, and open the book, or she would teach by
rote, but sure there was and how do you accompany this, and then all the drums go
along with it but everyone go around singing. There's no doubt about it.
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JS: So did you sing the part that was going to be played and then play it? Did you
learn it from the voice?
ROBERT: Not that I recall in my memory. But again, I'm 51. I was right out of
college, it was 30 years ago. My memory was that we learned almost all the parts by
rote on the barred instruments until somewhere in Level II, we started to do more and
more score studies, where she would just say, Take five minutes to all learn all of the
xylophone parts and then let's play it. Which wasnt her being lazy; its what we
still do. It was like, we need this skill as well. Read the thing.
JS: Did you do folk songs? Like, you know, some traditions
ROBERT: Yes, we did do folk songs and one thing the [university] course, I wouldnt
say stressed, but included was the American editions. They had recently been
published and of course there were pieces in there that [teacher] had submitted, and
[teacher] had submitted. And so, these teachers of mine, they were in there and so I'm
sure they wanted to use their stuff as well. It was great. So, the folk material came
from there.
JS: Great. Describe how you incorporate singing into your teaching routine.
ROBERT: I think, in some ways my liability as a singer has become an asset as a

teacher because I remind my students, my young students are 8th graders, so they're
not babies, although I taught the little guys years ago.
JS: So you teach 8th through 12th?
ROBERT: Thats right. So, here I am at this school, I'm a non-singer. I went to the
school to work with [mentor teacher] Warner, who was another non-singer. So, my
modeling in Orff Schulwerk was not so much from the vocal aspect. I knew it was
heavy on recorder, heavy on the barred instruments, heavy on movement and
literature. We did sing, but it wasnt stressed. A few years ago, not many years ago, I
hired a young woman whose name is [name], and she was the one who said, I think
we should sing more... And [mentor teacher] had retired. So, I said, I think you're
right,and then I hired [friend/teacher] and [friend/teacher] said, We need to sing a
lot more. And so we started to do it and then a few years ago, I hired [teacher name],
who's a real singer, and so because of all these reasons, more and more singing has
come back in Orff Schulwerk, thank goodness.
So going back to my 8th graders, I'm always reminding them that Orff Schulwerk is a
wonderful music class because, I'll say, Some of you guys are dancers. I watch you
move, and you're incredible. Some of us arent, I'm not a dancer, but I like to do it, so
I'll do that for a little bit. Some of you love the percussion. You really come alive
when thats going on. You dont like to dance so much, and so etc., etc. Some of
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you love to sing, and some of you not so much. I said, The great thing about this
class is, it isnt just a singing class or just dance class, because then, a lot of you
would hate most of the class. We do a lot of different things. And so my singing
rule, as my kids know, my singing rule is that when we sing, we sing. Some of you
are gonna sing your hearts out, some of you just barely gonna sing, but you wouldn't
sit at the xylophones, and just sit there and not play. It's understood when we are at
the xylophones, we're playing. The same thing with singing. And I remind the kids
that I am not a great singer, but people love to sing. No matter who you are, people
love to sing.
I say look at the upper school. My chorus has 115 kids in it. The whole upper school
has 220. More than half of the kids are in the chorus and I think, and this might sound
a bit too proud, but I think it's largely in part to my approach of singing and
reminding kids that it's fun to sing. You dont have to be a great singer, it's just a fun
thing to do. Come and sing in my chorus. We dont go to festivals because we
wouldnt get scores. We dont compete. Some of the kids only come once a week. It's
only a two-day activity. It's nice for the kids. But they sing, and so all the way to 12th
grade, half of the upper school, they sing. It's wonderful.
And I dont think it would be that way if I'd been a better singer because then I would
be more involved in the competitive my chorus would sound better probably
because I wouldnt want all those kidspeople who arent great singers, so it works
so well and just as an aside, the [school] School has the same approach to athletics
where not that we dont have winning seasons but
JS: Everybody plays.
ROBERT: Everybody plays. If you want to be on the team, you are in the team. There
are no cuts. So all of these kids who maybe would never my daughter, who never
would have played sports in high school, played sports three seasons a year and loved
it, and now shes back teaching at [school] and she coaches. I mean, it's amazing,
wonderful. It just shows that I think at least, high school kids are still too little to be
choosing. They are only 17 or 18 years old. Why should they chooseI'm a singer;
no, I'm an athlete. Thats crazy, so thats how singing is assimilated into our teaching.
I make sure we always have a song. So, no matter what activity we're working on,
there's always some song and I did this for my whole department. I'll say, Are you
still singing this song? No, we are finished with it. Which one are you gonna do
next? And so there's always a song going on just like there's always folk dance going
on, along with all the other Orff Schulwerk stuff.
JS: Do you integrate singing into your teaching of Orff Schulwerk?
ROBERT: Yes.
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JS: I mean, I know you have your chorus and then you also have Orff Schulwerk
classes through 8th grade. So in 8th grade, what does that class look like?
ROBERT: Primarily canons and again this is
JS: So maybe in the beginning of the class or something?
ROBERT: Or at the end. Thats right, rarely in the middle, and like I was saying
before about my singing is that we sing. That was the 8th graders. And, When it's
time to sing the canon, you may love the song, you may not, but this is what we're
doing right now and it's gonna sound better if 18 of you sing and not six, so we all
sing. Almost always canons but Martin Luther King celebration, we'll sing s
spiritual. This last year, we sang Lift Every Voice, which is just, of course,
gorgeous. So, part-songs. Different things. But there's always singing in Orff
Schulwerk class at my school on any given day.
JS: Would you say? I mean, when Paul and I were talking about this, he was saying, I
think we were both kind of coming to this realization, that there are times when we're
teaching part-songs or canons or something like that when really it's music class, and
the way we teach it, the approach that we use is influenced by how we learned to
teach Orff Schulwerk, but technically it's not Orff Schulwerk, it's just music.
ROBERT: Its true. Thats true.
JS: So and thats part of what Orff Schulwerk is, obviously. When they're playing the
instruments in 8th grade in your classes, do they also sing?
ROBERT: Almost never.
JS: Do they ever use the voice to learn something, to learn a piece?
ROBERT: Rarely, and that would go back to [mentor teacher], because she was my
teacher and so it was you play it, they echo it. And thats the same for recorder too.
There's reading but basically I play, they play back and forth. Rarely singing.
JS: How do you incorporate singing into the teaching of adults in your levels courses?
ROBERT: I think the same way. I let them know, they figure out on their own that
I'm not a singer, but that it's important because there are plenty of adults I'm teaching
who also arent singers and they need to know how. I don't care if you sing well or
not. You're not gonna deprive your students of singing just because you arent a good
singer which I should say, I think [mentor teacher], did a little bit. It just didnt work
for her and so she thought, We don't need it that much. So I think for my students
who arent great singers, it's a great model for them. Heres this guy, he doesnt sing
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well but he sings a lot in class. Then for people who are singers, they can just wail on
it and do a great job.
JS: So still canons and part-songs in your levels courses.
ROBERT: In Level III, which I teach twice a year, and Level II, which I do once a
year, I start every day off with a warm-up for students. I do the first one but then
students lead us either a play party game or canon. For two reasons, one, we get to
sing a lot and two, they get to be the teacher and not just the student. I want them to
know always in my classroom that, yes I know they're my students, but we're all
teachers, so lets step it up from the beginning and they really seem to enjoy that and
it gives the students a large repertoire of song. They learn a lot of canons and play-
party games. Id say about half the people already know half of the material, but the
other half is new and they're excited to leave with that.
JS: Thats cool, and you probably get some new stuff too.
ROBERT: I surely do.
JS: Again, I'm just gonna make sure when you're teaching Orff instrument pieces,
they do it by rote, just as you play it, they play it. So not singing?
ROBERT: Not singing.
JS: Okay. Some of the research I have read suggests that well we've talked about
this some but maybe not quite so much. Some of it suggests that there are times this
is a study from Cecilia Wang. She did a study at the University of Kentucky with
some of the Orff Schulwerk students there, and she followed them after they had
completed their levels training and went to the classrooms to see what they do. And
one of the things she found was when they estimated how much time they spent on
everything, she had estimated by percentages, theyd say, well I've spent 50% of my
time on singing, 50% of my time on playing instruments, 50% on moving. (They
laugh.)
The funny thing about that is, obviously we dont have 200% of time, but what she
found was, with Orff Schulwerk, really we do, because so often we're doing more
than one thing at a time. (ROBERT: Thats true.) So talk about you've told me that
singing canons and part-songs, which are separate from the other media. Although,
there are probably times when they're doing canons and are also moving, I guess.
ROBERT: Yes, our younger students do that.
JS: Or even part-songs, do they move sometimes?

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ROBERT: No.
JS: Okay, are there other times in your teaching of adults and/or children when they're
combining media where they're moving and playing or singing or?
ROBERT: Yes, most often with the drums.
JS: So what are they doing with the drums?
ROBERT: This last spring, our middle school performance, which was 6th to 8th
grade, was called The Drumthat was the title of the performance. And it was just
an exploration of different ways that drums are included into music. And so, 6th
graders did Taiko drumming. And, my 8th graders did the Dorian dance, not the one
that people think of, but the longer one that [singing] in 3, and lots of drumming. So
they were drumming on stage and moving while they were drumming.
JS: So drumming and moving.
ROBERT: It was great and very exciting. So I'd say, that is the most common thing
we do is drumming.
JS: Is there singing in combination with any other media?
ROBERT: Our younger kids, as in lower school, will do more singing and dancing
simultaneously both in classroom and in performances. Middle school, we tend to
separate. I'm guessing we do that, I mean I never thought about it, but its intuitive,
but I'm guessing we do that because the music is becoming harder and we expect
more of them when they're moving, so we dont want them to sing and move because
we want the movement to be pretty extraordinary. So thats the focus.
JS: What proportion, and I really dont want a percentage, but can you just describe
for me about how you would say the proportion of singing is in comparison with the
other media.
ROBERT: Thats easy because, normally, I'm gonna sing at the very beginning of the
class or at the end of class, and I'd say 10 to 15 minutes. I see my 8th graders three
times a week, and lets just say that there would be one of those classes where I
wouldnt sing because we just need to get to something else. So I'd say 10 minutes
twice a week.
JS: [friend/teacher] made a really good point when we got to that question, and I want
to know what you think about this, in that she said that she thinks the proportion of
singing decreases with the age of the kids at [school]. So that, in 1st grade, they're
singing more; by 8th grade, they're singing less.
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ROBERT: Well, I dont know what her percentages were, but I mean, the little
guys
JS: They sing more?
ROBERT: They sing all the time.
JS: Well, it's the instrument they already know how to use.
ROBERT: Thats right, and they will be more likely to sing (singing) G-E-G-G-E as
they're trying to learn that melody. With 8th graders, I'm not gonna have them to sing
the Phrygian melody they're about to play. It's too hard. It would take longer to learn
it that way than to hear me play it and theyll play it back or reading it because the
kids read more, so
I think for sure our younger or youngest students are gonna be doing more singing
and also gonna be doing more play party games. All that stuff gets them moving and
playing at the same time, those coordination skills involve singing.
JS: Okay, that makes sense. I think you did refer to this a little bit earlier that the
question is, Do you believe that singing in Orff Schulwerk in the United States has
changed over the years since Orff Schulwerk came to the United States? Do you
think we sing more or less now than maybe we did in the 80s?
ROBERT: Not being a scholar of the history of the Orff Schulwerk, I dont really
know
JS: In your experience though.
ROBERT: My experience is pretty closed. I mean, its just [mentor teacher]. Its just
[name] School. Although I didn't study my levels training with [my mentor teacher],
and she said I shouldnt because I was already with her, but she also told me where to
go. She said, I want you at this program. So I wasnt given any choice where I
studies. I can tell you that, at [school] School we didn't do that much singing when I
started there in the early 80s, late 70s and now we're doing a whole lot more
singing. But I think thats just because of whos at the school. And also, I have to be
careful because there are always were lower school assemblies back when it was just
[mentor teacher] and I there. The assemblies always started off with songs. I mean,
every Thursday we had to lead singing for part of the assemblies. So, it wasnt like
that there was no singing or the entire lower school didnt come together to sing, we
did. It just wasnt where it is now.
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JS: I think this is my last question, when your students come to you, and you also
talked about this a little bit, when your adult students come to you in levels courses
around the country, what do you think about the quality of their singing?
ROBERT: For no other reason, than just who these people are, some of them are
great singers. They are voice majors, they're just fabulous singers. Some of them are
more like me, people who dont sing that well, but they can match pitch and do all
that, and there are few people who are almost non-singers, uh, the that kind of sad
situation, where you were told young in your years that you're not a singer. So some
percussionists whos gonna learn Orff Schulwerk and maybe thought he would never
teach young children, just thrown into this program as a beginner, and he hasn't sung
for decades.
So I think what I'm trying to say is that the Orff Schulwerk approach is that I dont
think the quality, high or low whatever the level might be, has anything to do with
Orff Schulwerk levels training approach. Its to keep them coming.
JS: I think I was getting at what are they like when they show up, what was their
preparation like, but I think it's what you're saying.
ROBERT: Yeah, and some people, just like I was saying, some people when we sing
in their levels classes, they love it because they're great singers. They really enjoy
that, and some people can't wait for the xylophones, and that was me. I mean, what
attracted me to Orff Schulwerk was clearly the xylophones. I had fun singing but it
was a quality of music So I guess thats what I'll say about singing.
JS: In Orff Schulwerk, because we sing, move, play, and speak, we probably arent
all equally adept at teaching all four media. I mean, hopefully we can all speak in
rhythm, but some are better movers, some are better players, some are better singers.
ROBERT: Yeah, and I think our levels courses show that because if you think about
what they do in a day, they're gonna be doing all of those things because to teach Orff
Schulwerk, you have to be pretty good at doing all of them. I'm not a great dancer
but I sure am better at moving now than I was before I took my levels, and working
with my colleagues every summer. I never thought I'd be doing this ever when I was
an undergraduate. I never thought Id be teaching a dance to anybody or a song for
that matter. I saw myself as being high school theory teacher.
JS: Okay, any other comments on singing?
ROBERT: No. Great questions.
JS: Thank you.

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JS: So we are back to Robert. It is June 24, 2009 and this is a continuation of the
questions. So these are kind of embedded. So after we talked about your experience in
school and early memories of singing, this kind of goes along with that.
Just tell me about your choral music or vocal music teachers that you had, and this is
after your experiences of singing in school. Did you sing in choirs or musical theatre
as a teacher, I mean, as a teenager and then I just want to know about your vocal
music or chorus teachers?
ROBERT: In high school, my theory teacher was my chorus director thats why I
joined the group again. He said, You should do this. Just come and sing. So that
worked out really, really well. I mean, he's probably responsible for the fact that I
started singing more, and I enjoyed it.
In college I was taking required choir classes. Since I wasnt a vocal major obviously,
I was required to be in mens chorus for one semester or a couple of semesters, and
then of course, a mixed chorus. And I dont really remember much about the people
how taught. They were, I mean, I liked them. There wasnt anybody I didn't like, but
they were good, but no memories stand about what they did or didnt do.
JS: Okay, what was your favorite music education course in college and why was it
your favorite?
ROBERT: Okay, thats a good question.
JS: I would have to think back.
ROBERT: I know. We're old. (They laugh.) Okay, it was, definitely, it was my
elementary methods. There was no doubt about it. As I recall, there were some
different teachers who kind of took turns for different things, different units, but the
woman who really stands out, her name is [teacher name], and we actually kept in
contact after I graduated because [she] was, although I wouldnt call her an Orff
teacher, she knew that it was good and she pushed that in methods class. It's still it
was nothing like what we get in the levels. It's funny because, when I took the job at
[school] School, I remember going down to take a job or to apply thinking that I
knew about Orff Schulwerk and of course, I did not know anything. [mentor teacher]
just made me laugh. She said You were such a jerk.
So [my professor] taught us about Orff Schulwerk. We looked at the brown books.
We went to observe at a school that was almost exclusively Orff Schulwerk. This
teacher at this school], you might know this name, she taught in the levels course in
[city name] for a while and then because of all that stuff, and because I was a good
student, when it was time for placement, I got placed at that school. And so I taught
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Orff Schulwerk and in my undergraduate student teaching, and I liked it and everyone
said it worked. But still, of course I thought I would never teach little kids because I
was a guy. But sure enough, the job I thought I had fell through, and I took the job at
[school] instead (JS: And the rest is history.), and I know exactly. So no doubt about
it elementary ed methods class, I think it was really good.
JS: So just going back to that class, what was the professor particularly good at
teaching? I mean, it sounds like she gave you some good
ROBERT: Her strength was that she was open-minded. She didnt say, I mean I dont
teach methods and I'm sure it's almost a requirement to do this, but she didnt say you
should only use this. She gave us the standard, This is Kodly, this is Dalcroze, you
knowwhat you do.
JS: Well, not everybody does that.
ROBERT: And maybe thats better. In some schools, you maybe have a class with
just one, but I remember she clearly thought there was some real strengths to Orff
Schulwerk and didnt hold back. Now, did she say the same thing about Kodly?
Maybe she did, but my memory was that this Orff thing was pretty cool. She really
thought it worked well. She was an older woman. She retired a few years after I
graduated but she was cool. I just loved her.
JS: When you decided to enroll in levels courses; I think you already talked about
this. Just remind me, what was the thing that attracted you why did you go to get
these courses, because of that? Because of the student teaching?
ROBERT: (Laughing) No, it was because [mentor teacher] said, This is what you
will do this summer. I taught the first year and suffered through that, and she
suffered through my teaching, and she said this is what you're gonna do this summer,
and you can go to one of these three places, and I think that maybe two of the three
might have been where she taught. Of course, I wouldnt have her because she
wouldve been Level III, but still I remember saying to her, I felt comfortable enough
to say to her, I worked with you all year long, I'd like to go somewhere else, and
one of the places was [university] and I had a best friend from high school who lived
in [the city where the university is]. And I knew I could stay with him and hang out
with him and so I said I wanna go to [city]. And so she said fine. So I went to
study with [teacher] and [teacher]. [Teacher] wasnt there yet. Anyway, I had no
choice.
JS: So it was required for your job.

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ROBERT: And for just for the record, [school name] School paid for it. The school
said, You have to do it and we'll pay for it and I knew I was gonna do all three
levels. There wasnt any chance of just doing one.
JS: No, you were doing it.
ROBERT: And as you know, they were three weeks long.
JS: Exactly. Okay, when you recall your own levels teachers, what kinds of things
were they really good at teaching? What kinds of things were they not so good at
teaching?
ROBERT: So okay, just give me the first half of question.
JS: When you recall your own levels teachers, what kinds of things were they very
good teaching or what types of things were they so good at teaching?
ROBERT: [Teacher name] was really good at score studies. She had us open books.
We did lots from the American edition because theyd just come out, and of course
[teacher name] had contributed to that. [Teacher] was really good at play party
games. I mean, that was her thing, and I learned a million of play party games and I
thought they were fun and the canons that also I talked about before. [My teacher]
was really good at teaching what beauty was. It always mattered as you know, is it
gorgeous? So it doesnt mean you can't be loud and fast but is it beautiful, and it
reminded me that that mattered. That was what I took from him. [Teacher name] was
really good at
JS: I didnt know that she was your teacher.
ROBERT: Yeah, she was my Level II and III recorder teacher; and she came back
from the Intitute to do that. She was really good at saying if it's not right, it's not right.
She just really raised the bar in terms of what Orff Schulwerk is.
So those things do stand out. That was very important and each one of them I'm sure
had a lot more strengths than I'm recalling, but I just dont wanna talk for too long,
but I think it's kind of like what we say to people in workshops, dont try to take
everything in. If you get something from this person, you know, [teacher] said I
didnt know what beauty was, I still don't. But he had a way of saying, Come on,
are you beautiful? Are you moving beautifully? Are you singing beautifully? And do
you impress me that there was a level of artistry to Orff Schulwerk? Then I could be
called upon to think that way.
JS: Anything that you can think of that they were not so good at teaching?
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ROBERT: Sure, not those specific people. Well, actually no, it's only you. Ill say it.
[Teacher name] taught Level III ensemble, basic, we called it back then. He wasnt
very good at it. I could tell pretty quickly that a lot of what he was teaching us, he
hadn't done with the kids and I'll never forget the ecstatic dance. And there are only
four people in my Level III. So we went in like this percussion room, and he was
gonna teach us the ecstatic dance. Really, it fell apart, and actually, because I loved
[teacher] by then, I kind of felt of sorry for him. And no one judged him, but he really
didn't know how to teach it. I got the feeling that it was almost too hard for him. And
years later, when I've done it with kids now, probably 10 times, and I know I teach
that piece, I keep going back to [teacher]. Why didn't he know how to teach it? Did
you not do it with the kids? You shouldnt have taught it to adults, maybe. At [school
name], I am strict with the teachers that we dont teach things with the adults that we
havent taught with kids.
So, I saw what it meant to teach outside of ones comfort zone which can be good of
course, but also everyone has an expertise, and everyone shouldnt be able to do
everything. He was brilliant at so many things. I had my Level III basic class with, I
forgot her last name, [Name]?wasnt so good, and looking back at it, I realize she
was local. And of course trying to save some money and she wasnt [teacher]. She
wasnt [teacher]. She wasnt [teacher]. She wasnt [name], and so you can't go cheap
on this stuff, because I had one Level I teacher, and I didnt learn much. I remember
being kind of arrogant, and you know me, I can be infamous for that, but I was
coming from working with [mentor teacher]. So, I thought I knew it all. Of course I
didn't. So, I went to this Level I class and I felt like everything she was saying, I just
already knew, and I really did. I mean, I knew what pentatonic was and I knew how
to break things down, and she wasn't that good at it, so that bothered me a little bit. I
went back again because it was still a good experience.
Anyway, so everyone wasnt perfect. And also, I think maybe [teacher] had us sit
and do score study too much. I liked it because I'm a theorist, but our basic levels are
much more active in ways we do score study and we do more of them as the levels go
up but we know in our basic classes that we still do other things as well. We dont
just open the book and look at it. We teach and then you look up. So.
JS: I really agree with you. The first time you said, Dont teach a piece to adults that
you haven't taught to children, I really took that to heart and I strongly believe it that
it's not gonna work. You're taking a chance.
ROBERT: And when that teacher asks you, what did you do next? That's terrible, say,
Oh I dont know. I'm just doing this to make more money, from you. No, come on
lets share with people what we do with kids and what works. And what didn't work.
JS: So the next question, to what extent do you think you emulate your own levels
teachers?
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ROBERT: Well, I'm not [teacher]. I'm not [teacher name]. I mean I know I have
strengths. In some ways, those people are still up there. I was a young guy, they were
older. They were experienced. The wisdom that I know I know that some people
look and say, Robert knows a lot of stuff. I mean, Im aware of that, but, I think
they just seemed so smart. And so let's make it more applicable. They impressed upon
me the importance of knowing your stuff. Know your stuff, it doesnt mean that you
dont leave room for creativity or but when you go into that class, with those
people, know what you're about to do and this goes back to what we were just saying,
how does it go with the kids? What did you do?
JS: Well, I'm sure youve taken on some characteristics of all your teachers.
ROBERT: Oh, I can be a real chameleon now. I mean, for sure, I think a lot of what I
do I got from this person, that person I'm not sure what I got from whom, but I'm
certain. And also, the way I wasnot judged, but assessed. I remember for example,
I dont know if it Level II, I think it was Level II, but it might have been Level III,
and [teacher] said, You wanna teach Street Song to the group? She let me teach
Street Song. Yeah, to the entire levels class.
JS: In level II?
ROBERT: I thought it was Level II, but it was probably Level III. I remember
thinking, awesome. She trusted me to do that, and by the way I had not taught it to the
kids yet. She said, Study the piece and you wanna teach it? And, you know, first of
all, (incredulous) I was given an hour and a half to do this, but you know a three-
week course. The risk she took saying, I know you're a student but you're also a
teacher. And Ive said it to my Level IIIs for the last two weeks probably 10 times.
Yes, you are a student, but you are a teacher as well. Tell me what we're gonna do
next and that way of making me feel I am a teacher and thats very important
when working with adults; that we never forget that they're teachers and we do not let
them forget that they're teachers because they're in this class and they're writing
things down or trying to figure it out. So that was important.
I know I got from [teacher]the whole concept of joy or beauty, the fun. He would
say, Tell me about the joy in your classroom and I am always saying your teachers,
I dont want to hear about Dorian mode yet. Tell me about the joy. What did you do
this week? What made the kids happy? Not that theyre entertained. And so, not
only do I practice that with my kids, and again when I say kids, I mean also my
college kids. I practice that with my kids and with my faculty at [school] School, but
also I tell the teachers here how important this is and I got that from [teacher].
It's like the Gestault Method. Do you remember this from [my teacher]? He said we
dont have to echo every phrase. Sometimes just starting singing the song and sing it
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again and again and let them join in and see how they do, or just put the music on and
start doing a dance. Do you have it yet? You know, if you go to a Greek festival, they
are not going to teach the steps. What do they call it now?
JS: Simultaneous imitations.
ROBERT: There you go, thank you. And so I mean, all things like that they really
affected my teaching. From [mentor teacher], who was my teacher of course even
though she wasnt my levels teacher, just saying, Dont tell the kids that it's good
when it's not good, because when it is good, they dont care. They know you just say
it all the time. And she would say, If you're gonna use the word excellent, be
careful with that. Often, the people who didnt like [mentor teacher] would be
critical because they thought she was too critical. I would just say to them, Shes just
telling the truth. Orff Schulwerk isn't fluff. We are called that by some of our
colleagues, who dont respect us as much as they should. And so, I'm trying to carry
that torch from [mentor teacher] and saying, Come on guys, step it up here. It's Orff
Schulwerk we know about all the joy and fun and thats so important but... So all of
that stuff. I didnt come up with that stuff. I got it all from people who are smarter
than I am. I am really lucky. So that's my answer.
JS: When you're teaching children Robert, what are your favorite activities to teach?
ROBERT: Thats easy. Lets remember that I work with 8th graders because
everyone else at [school] does these little guys. I get all the 8th graders and then I
teach high school. So I'm kind of like the gateway. They have to get through me.
So I love giving my kids, say, heres the challenge, get in a group, you have 20
minutes. So thats what I love to do. It scares the hell out of me, that first day of
doing that, you know. You know, Okay, youre Phrygian mode, youre dorian, and
this is your mode, come up with eight measures, duples and triples. Whatever you
want, good, make a melody, make an accompaniment, and then I get out off the way
to see that happen. Its one of my favorite things.
Another one is teaching dances. I love to teach folk dances and I know why, in the
same way I love to teach songs: because I'm not a dancer. I love saying to kids, here I
am. I'm not a dancer. I'm a guy and we're gonna dance. We're gonna hold hands, and
of course at the [school] School, they dont mind that, because they never stopped
doing that. I love to teach folk dances and then there's specific things. I love teaching
Street Song. It's just the most joyful piece of music and I teach it every single
spring. I never get tired of it and turn around and I teach to these people and I love it
again. So I love teaching that and I love teaching decoration of the third. It's just so
gorgeous.
JS: Yes, that one piece [singing]. I love that.

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ROBERT: Exactly, I will hear it over and over and over again. Thats what I love.
JS: Do you teach anything that you dont like to teach?
ROBERT: No, I'm the department head.
JS: Is there anything you dont wanna do?
ROBERT: I really dont. Even my job description, I dont love little kids as much as I
used to, I don't do that anymore, because I have a really strong belief that whoever is
in the classroom with any age group, they should be loved and although I still can
love 2nd graders, I didnt love teaching that. Little by little I realized I was really
good with middle school kids. And so as I kept teaching I got higher and higher and
up and then I can focus more in middle school and now, because I do so much upper
school I only teach eighth-grade. So now, everything I do, every class I teach I love.
What I do in every class, it's all good. I'm very lucky that way.
JS: Are you ever teaching a workshop and you look to see what's coming next and
you think Ach, I'm not looking forward to that?
ROBERT: Thats a good question. I wanna be honest. I think the answer is gonna be
almost no. Because I'm known for not liking change much. So, although I do,
especially now that [friend/teacher] and I are teaching workshops together, we have
developed a whole new repertoire of things that we're doing and I like that because it
shakes me up a little bit.
The things I share in my workshops, I make sure the things I really love and, of
course, have done with kids, etc, etc. So, normally there's all kinds of space for them
to create; heres your task, go for it and some people hate that stuff. Theyd rather just
be told what to do but then I teach folk dances. I like doing them with kids, I like
teaching them to adults. So no, for the most part I think I really like what I teach.
JS: Isnt that great that you just do what you love doing?
ROBERT: Yeah, I know. It's part of being old, right?
JS: It's great!
ROBERT: You can call the shots more.
JS: Thats right. I think once you hit 50, you dont do anything that you dont wanna
do. Thats the truth.
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JS: What do children seem to enjoy the most when they're being taught with the Orff
approach? I mean, thats all you do so what do they enjoy the most?
ROBERT: You mean my take on the philosophy? You do not mean my own
classroom?
JS: Either one. You can look at the broad or you can look at your specific kids.
ROBERT: Alright, okay I'll look at the broad. Number one, I think both answers are
gonna be the same, that is, if I do my job well. Number one is the joy. I mean, thats
gotta be it. I mean, you go to any Orff classroom, where teacher and knows what she
or he is doing, it should be joyful. Second, more specific, the changing of activities
right when the kids are into this, it's like, okay something new! They can never like,
can we please do something else. It doesnt mean that, as they get older, they cant
stay with something for 40 minutes. Sometimes you do that, but more often, not, it's
multiple things. I know kids like that a lot because, everyone doesnt love to sing, and
doesnt love to dance, but yet, we make the kids do all these things. So you wanna
keep changing it up.
I think definitely the barred instruments. I mean, Im sorry, I know people say you
can teach Orff Schulwerk without those instruments, but it's the spirit of Orff
Schulwerk. The way they sound. I dont care what music you choose. It could be bad
music. It's still that sound of those instruments.
And then, stories. I mean, to me, thats the top of the top of the top. As much as the
movement, it's when theyre all part of the story. Thats what Orff Schulwerk, it
always goes back to literature. It's gotta have to do with the work. Thats whatand
so...
JS: Are there activities that you think they dont enjoy?
ROBERT: Yeah, I do and I got this from [my teacher] because he was bold enough to
say, This [performing body percussion] is not fun for a very long. Lets stop telling
everybody that patsching is the coolest thing that you can do with kids. It's like, Uh-
uh. Singing a song with it is okay, but it isnt that fun. And, unless the body
percussion is really challenging, that can get old. Or maybe you shouldnt do it for
very long.
Echo singing, as important as it is. He was bold enough to say, Dont echo-sing any
song. It's too formulaic.
JS: So the kids dont like to?

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ROBERT: No, some of its really good but then when, you teach the next song, just
go to the piano and pass out the music and say, Lets hear what we're singing.
Follow me.
So I think some of those things they dont like. I think some of the theory if it's taught
too much like undergraduate theory, you could lose the kids. It's all gotta come from
the music. I will say to the kids, Look, I just want 5 minutes of your time. Come
over to the board. Lets look at what you just did. Heres why you did it. You may
just think it was fun to play and beautiful, but there's a reason and here it is. I want
you to know this. I may not give you a test on it, but I want you to know this.
So I think if there's too much theory, that can be a problem. And I'm saying that
because as a theorist, I love that the Schulwerk is so theoretical, and when I was
younger, I think I taught to that too much because it made me happy. The kids dont
care. So it's gotta be joy first, dorian mode, second.
JS: Do the children in your classes that you teach like to sing and are they good at it?
ROBERT: Yes, they do like to sing and they are good at it; and heres the proof. First
of all, I told you in the earlier interview my singing rule is when we sing, everyone
sings. You dont get to go to the xylophones and one person puts the mallets down.
We're all doing it. There's no choice.
So when you're singing, it's gotta be the same way. You can't opt out of it, I say that
to the kids. And by saying that to them, I think I gave them the safety of that
enforcement. I mean, most of the kids want to sing. So for the few kids who maybe
wouldnt, I'm saying, You gotta sing. Well the truth is, the kid probably likes to
sing, but maybe wouldnt choose to.
So I force them, so to speak, and that way, of course, everyone is singing and more
people sing, the better it sounds, and so they do it well and then as I already told you,
you know, high school when the Orff classes stop, you know, why would half of the
upper school choose to be in the chorus? They clearly do like to sing and it's because
of their eight years plus three pre-kindergarten, 11 years theyve had of some kind of
Orff Schulwerk stuff. And although we're not the singing-based Orff program, we
sing plenty. And we sing enough so that when these kids get into 9th grade and no
longer are forced to sing, they say, I'm signing up because it was fun, and I think
thats very important.
JS: When you're teaching adults in levels courses, what are your expectations for the
kinds of musical knowledge and skills that these music educators should already have
when they walk in the room? And lets go on and talking in context of Level III.
What do you expect them to be able to do?
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ROBERT: Well, to simplify, lets say I expect them to have all the concepts that were
taught in Level I and Level II. I won't elaborate what they are because we know what
they are but I expect that they come in to my classroom and they have that stuff,
because I know my colleagues who are teaching in those levels and specifically the
people who are teaching Level II are people I taught or work with. I mean, if it's
[friend/teacher] I work with her. I know I can count on this people. I told [my
colleague], Heres what we do in Level II, and he teaches Level II. So I know that
they're gonna come in and they're very well prepared and just like I was saying being
a department head, I get to do what I want.
In my levels courses, I get to teach what I want. I'm fortunate to be with the people I
respect and I dont have to teach at a levels course just because I could use a couple
of thousand dollars. I can be at the one I love and that I helped to shape. So I expect
that knowledge.
Then theoretically, I expect them to know what I would call undergraduate music
theory. When I say whats a passing tone, or second species counterpoint, or whatever
it is, I expect them to know that. When I talk about how does a V chord have to
resolve, I expect them to know that because although they dont know when they
come in to Level III, that this is where Orff Schulwerk is going to take them. It is, its
functional harmony. Orff knew that!
A lot of the people think Orff is a drone? It's not a drone. Thats where we start
people, but come on, and I say to Level III, even if you're gonna never teach the
material, as a certified Orff teacher, you ought to know where it goes. So if
somebody to you, Oh, Orff, thats that drone stuff, you say, No. Lets talk about
Renaissance music and how Orff Schulwerk gets you there.
So I expect them to know that information and although for many of them need a
review, I love that, even if they dont have it at their fingertips, that they're realizing
during Level III that this stuff does matter. And so many students, Level III students
have said to me, and this is the Schulwerk theyre complementing, not meTheyve
said to me, Its because of this Level III class that I really realize now what music
theory is all about. And that it's not just something in a book, and that it is real music
and that youve got to know this to teach kids. You have to know it.
If you're singing, (singing) Early to bed and early to rise, thats got neighbor tones
in it, it's got passing tones in it. Some notes are more important than other notes, I
mean, you have to analyze that piece, which I happen to think is the perfect
pentatonic piece. No, they all matter, and I did that the first day at Level III. I said to
those people, Youd better be good musicians because we're gonna analyze
everything we do and we're gonna decide how we're gonna teach it based on how we
analyze it and so thats a skill set. Thats something I expect them to have.
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JS: I knew you have to look at, how to analyze music on the page from college, but I
didnt understand it all that well until Orff Schulwerk.
ROBERT: We never get to make it.
JS: I didnt know--I knew that the chord needed to change, but I didnt know where it
was going until Orff Schulwerk. Standing behind the timpani with Carol Erion
ROBERT: There you go and you remember
JS: You're on the spot. And you know instinctively where to make the change, but I
didnt know what to make the change to until Level III.
JS: Robert. This is Friday June 26. We are just finishing up our last few questions.
Have you found that the level of the levels students knowledge and skills has
changed in last few years since youve I mean, youve been teaching since what
86?
ROBERT: 87.
JS: 87.
ROBERT: The first one was in 86, '87. So, are the students arriving with more or
less skills?
JS: Is it different?
ROBERT: No, I dont think so. I think, more to the point for me would be that I see a
certain level of student at [university name], in [city]. I see a certain level at
[university]. I see a certain level in [state]. And they're consistent but I dont think
they changed over the decade, no.
JS: What's the level like in those three places?
ROBERT: Here, it's very high. [university], it's very high. Most of those people there,
almost all of them are taking it for a grade, for graduate work. In [state], it's all over
the place.
JS: They have a lot of classroom teachers?
ROBERT: A lot of classroom teachers, people who just want to experience Orff
Schulwerk very, very different.
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JS: Based on your experience as an Orff Schulwerk teacher educator, what are the
primary reasons that music educators enroll in Orff levels courses? So in your
opinion, why do they come to the levels course?
ROBERT: Well, okay I think thats similar to the last question in some ways because
most of them from [university], they're coming because they want a Masters degree in
music ed and [university] has a really strong program. Here, I think they're coming
more because they just want to improve their teaching. Because most of them they're
not looking for advanced degree. I dont know if they have some salary increase, or
does it help them in the third year?
JS: They have to get staff development hours, so this count in a lot of cases towards
staff development.
ROBERT: So I think thats why. And also people are looking to I think they are
looking to find something thats gonna work for them. When I read the students
reflections, a lot of them say, I tried Kodly, I tried Orff, and Dalcroze, and Orff
speaks to me. So, they pursue it. So I think they're trying to find who they are, and
figure out what they're doing in their classroom.
I get that a lot, theyll say, I dont know what I was doing in my classroom. It didnt
make sense. And now theyd say, I understand. It's working. My kids are happy
working with small groups. So maybe they can be successful.
JS: Typically, in your levels courses what are the adults favorite activities? What are
their favorite things to do?
ROBERT: It's just like the kids. Some of them, as soon as we start singing, if we
havent done it for a while, they just light up because they're singers. You can hear
their voices start to soar. They're dying for it. They love to sing all day long.
Other people, lets say [student name], he wants to play xylophone, thats where he
feels comfortable with. Then, the next second, its Who wants to move? Like when I
watched the pedagogy lessons and they say, Okay, I need some people to move,
and its Bob and its Randi. They are dying to dance. So, I mean, it's just like kids. It's
whatever touches them the most about the Schulwerk that brings them here. It gets
them excited. Because otherwise, if you sing all day long, you have people like
[student name] whos not happy. If you dance all day long... So really it is the perfect
process.
JS: Have you ever found that your adult students are resistant to any activities?
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ROBERT: Definitely yes. Again, just to go back up to the last question, Ill take
[student name]. He is happy, you know, he is a methods professor. He is happy
playing the xylophone. He wants to talk about the theory and the history of the
Schulwerk. He loves it. He keeps on saying, Really? Wow! And you know, you
talk about music history, and he's there. When movement time comes, and I say
Okay, let's move, and the same teacher who as just talking about theory is modeling
movement, he doesnt want to do that. But yet, here I am doing it and so and then
with the singing. There are some people, they resist what they dont love. They are
just like kids, and some of them are really obvious about it. They kind of make it
clear like, I dont like this activity we are doing. I will do it because I know that it is
Orff Schulwerk, but how long until we get back the instruments? And to be fair, I
think when I was doing my levels, I was that way too. I was all about the melody, but
movement I said, What are we doing? But I was open to it because I was so young
then. Okay, I'll try this (laughs), but I wasnt sure, I wasnt sure about it.
JS: Okay, there is one more question. What process do you use to decide how to
incorporate singing? What influences your decisions? When I look at it, I think if it's
a song we sing it.
ROBERT: Right. I do a couple of things. Number one, I have to make sure that the
non-singers that I include an appropriate amount of singing in my classroom.
Remembering that they are children and adult students who want to sing. So I have
to make sure I dont do just instruments or recorder, I want to make sure they're
singing.
Also, I require my students to do a warm up every day. They take turns. This is the
five-minute thing, 10 minutes at the longest.
JS: The Level III students?
ROBERT: The Level III students, and so it takes almost a week and a half to do it
with 20 students and, so it takes a long time to do it, but I believe in it because I want
them to be out there singing, so its forcing you to have to lead singing. So I do that
on purpose to make them do that. I make sure I give students opportunities to sing
when maybe it wouldnt be for singing, like with the poem. I say, You can include
singing. Really? So, Carl chose to do that for his warm-up one day. And Marta
chose from the folk literature because that's what we do.
Again, because I'm not a singer, I think I have to be more aware of it. I And
[friend/teacher], of course who can sing, can say this is what we do. But for me I have
to really be thinking about it. Because otherwise Id be giving the wrong message to
people who are like myself who dont sing and You know, [mentor teacher] didnt
sing much. There were songs in assemblies, but really, it was all about the recorder
and mallets. And, the teacher showed it
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JS: That was the modeling.
ROBERT: Exactly. So when [friend/teacher] came, she said, Robert, we need to

sing a lot more. Thank goodness. So, I work extra hard at it because its not my
favorite thing to do, its not what I am good at. So that is good I think.
JS: Anything else you want to say?
ROBERT: No. I enjoyed your questions. It was fun.
JS: Thank you. Well, good thank you. I really, really appreciate it.
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Appendix H
Transcript of Interview with Sarah
JS: So, Sarah I want to start with just a few preliminary things. Im talking with
Sarah, who is at home in [state] and today is Wednesday, August 26, 2009 and were
going to talk about my questions for my dissertation, which have to do with singing
and with Orff Schulwerk. So Sarah, just a couple preliminary questions. First of all,
how long have you been teaching children? How many years have taught children?
SARAH: Since 1981, so what is that 20?
JS: Its a lot of years. Well, thats sounds like 28 to me.
SARAH: Yeah, that sounds good.
JS: Okay. And how many years have you been teaching adults? I know you started
quite early.
SARAH: About 25.
JS: Okay. Thank you. And Sarah, where did you do your Orff levels training? Were
now calling it teacher education courses, but where did you do your Orff training?
SARAH: I did Levels I and II at [university] with [teacher]. I did Level III with
[teacher] at [city] State. I did Level III again at [university name] University and then
I did numerous master classes at [university].
JS: Okay. And who was teaching at [university] when you did the extra Level III and
the master classes?
SARAH: [teacher] taught Level III and the master classes were with [teacher],
[teacher], [teacher] , a recorder teacher his name I cant remember Theres one
more in there. I think I did two with [teacher].
JS: What an amazing and diverse experience youve had. Its really great. Okay, so
Sarah, I have 28 questions and this has been taking on average about an hour. So
well see how it goes. First of all, I want to go back to your childhood memories and
ask, What are your earliest memories of singing as a child, maybe in a church or at
home with your parents, any place, your earliest memories?
SARAH: Our family sang a lot together. I had older siblings who sang. My oldest
sister had a little folksort of Peter, Paul, Marysinging group, so I would hear all
of her songs. My mother is a musician, so we sang together. I sang in a church choir. I
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have a picture of myself in first grade doing that, so it must have been all the way
through. Um, I sang in a glee club at school. My father tried to sing (laughs), and we
sang a lot as a family in the car with my sister of course, very much family sing-along
type.
JS: What kind of songs did you sing in the car and with your family?
SARAH: My sister and I sang a lot of songs wed learned in Girl Scouts. My mother
was a leader, so she was the one who taught them to us. Lots of canons, folk songs. I
remember singing Im Henry the Eighth I Am all the way to Maine once to my
parents distraction. We sang with my older sister, of course, we were singing Puff
the Magic Dragon and a lot of folk songs. We did a lot of singing in Girl Scouts as
well.
JS: I had the same experience. Thats really interesting. My mother was our scout
leader and Ive learned all those great songs. Well, then talk about your experiences
of singing in school and all the way from kindergarten through college and tell me a
little bit about the teachers you remember in school.
SARAH: My earliest memories with Mrs. Dickens who was tall, formal sort of
teacher, very much a vocalist. She would come to the elementary school and sing
with us. I think we used textbooks and she played piano, very traditional. But she did,
now that I remember, have very fine taste and the glee club that she had a singing in
used a lot of canons and folk songs. I dont remember any music another that in
elementary, but we did a lot of singing in elementary and then I was in glee club in
middle school. I guess it was called junior high. And, I didnt sing in the chorus in the
high school; I was in the band. Then as a 16-year-old, I went to music camp to study
flute and sang in the chorus there. We did the Faure Requiem. And later, I went to
Interlochen and did the Verdi Requiem, so I had some really exciting vocal
experiences there. In college, at [university], I sang in a couple of musicals with a
small group of students who did Godspell and Celebrate Life; it was a Christian
fellowship group musicals. Backing up a little bit-- in high school, I went to choral
music camp. We did 1776 and I was Martha Jeffersonlots of solos there. So, sort of
not formal choral education, but a lot of singing.
JS: What do you remember about the teachers who worked with you in junior high
and then the experiences at Interlochen and so forth?
SARAH: Well, Mrs. Dickens was the one from 4th grade to 12th. She was in a small
town. She was the teacher. I remember her very demanding and formal, but I loved
singing so much that I enjoyed her. A lot of the other students kind of laughed at her.
She talked a lot about correct singing and posture and articulation and I remember her
being very precise-- the other experiences, because they werent very formal, I dont
remember those things. I did sing, when I sang the Requiem at Interlochen, Richard
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Wagner was the conductor and that was a powerful experience. He talked a lot about
art being directed energy. I remember that was his phrase. He was also so exciting to
work with. Thats what I remember.
JS: Okay, great. What was your primary instrument in college?
SARAH: Flute.
JS: And did you take voice lessons or voice classes in addition to taking flute lessons?
SARAH: I didnt until graduate school. I did take, when I was first teaching, I took
voice lesson with [teacher name], with whom I was working at a church.
JS: My goodness. Wow!
SARAH: I was her choral assistant and in exchange for my helping her with the
church choir she gave me voice lessons. Then, when I did my graduate degree, I
studied voice with [teacher name] of University of [state]. Those were first formal
voice lessons.
JS: What do you recall about those lessons and about those classes that you took with
those teachers?
SARAH: That I was an instrumentalist, and I really didnt like practicing voice pretty
much. I think the thing they tried to help me the most was confidence and breath
control, which I had to struggled with flute as well. In the voice class I was with a lot
of voice majors and that was really intimidating. I did enjoy learning some beautiful
songs a lot of classical and voice repertoire was new to me. Id heard it, but singing it
was new to me.
JS: So, like art songs?
SARAH: Yeah.
JS: In different languages?
SARAH: Some in different languages and just classic Mozart arias and Handel arias,
and things like that. I hadn't explored that literature anywhere else as a performer.
JS: What was your favorite music education course in college? And why was it your
favorite?
SARAH: My undergraduate degree was not in music education. It was music history
and theory, just general. I didnt have a music education degree. In my graduate
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though my favorite course was it was called Music Cognition or Music

Psychology and Cognition or something like that. We talked about learning theories
and how music is learned that was with [teacher name].
JS: Oh. Why was that your favorite course?
SARAH: Ive always been fascinated with how children learn and the cognitive part
of how children and why some children can repeat patterns in a single pitch and why
some cant; and not that we have answers to those questions, but how learning theory
intersects with music education.
JS: What was your least favorite music education class then, in your graduate work?
SARAH: The history of music education in the United States.
JS: Im teaching that this semester.
SARAH: Dr. [name], who is not an inspiring lecturer but he is a very nice person.
JS: And why would you say that was your least favorite?
SARAH: Because a lot of memorization of dates and treatises and so forth. I dont
find that helpful. (Laughing)
JS: Okay, Ill remember that this semester while Im teaching that class. (Laughing)
No memorization of dates. Now, what made you decide to take Orff Schulwerk levels
courses? What was the impetus for that?
SARAH: There are two things. First, as an undergraduate, I spent a semester in

Vienna studying music with a group from [university name] and one of our field trips
for course called Music Education in Europe was to the Orff Institute. So as a 19-
year-old, I went to the Orff Institute and spent the day. So I had that in the back of my
mind that that might be something of interest to pursue and then I student taught with
a woman who had Orff training. When I interviewed for my first job at [name]
school, which youve heard of, I was told I couldnt be considered for the job unless
Id take another I [Level I].
JS: I had no idea.
SARAH: Youll appreciate this now. I got the Level I immediately, at the only course
that I could and still continue my summer job and it was with [teacher]. [Lead teacher
name] didnt think of much of that for some reason that I didnt understand then, but I
do now.
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JS: Wow! Isnt that interesting? Does [name] know that?
SARAH: Oh yeah. I saw [name] teach in [year], when I visited the school. And I
walked in, and [the lead teacher] said, Oh, youre here to interview? Will you teach
my 6th graders now, please.
JS: Oh my gosh! Wow! Put you out on the spot.
SARAH: Yeah.
JS: What was the thing that really attracted you to Orff Schulwerk? What was it that
was going on in the Institute and with the experiences beyond that attracted you to
that work?
SARAH: I think the openness of it, the challenge of integrating literature, which I
love. The people who I kept meeting were so elemental, real, and passionate about
what they are doing. Those were the elements, the improvisation part, of course.
JS: When you took the levels, what kinds of things were your teachers particularly
good at teaching? And then I want follow that up with did they have weaknesses and
if so, what were those weaknesses? And as youre speaking about this, keep in mind
that all the names, including your own, when they reported, will be anonymous.
SARAH: Okay, thats good. My Level I and II with [teacher] and Level III with
[teacher], I would say that their strength as educators is process. Both of them are
brilliant at breaking things down and sequencing materials and teaching them clearly,
as everyone knows. Now, some of their sources and materials dont meet my
requirements for taste at this point. There are a lot, a lot of their earlier materials were
folk music based so we did a lot of folk singing. They both wrote very clear and do-
able orchestrations. There was improvisation in the context of the folk song but we
didnt do much work with instrumental pieces from the historical materials.
Theone of the reasons I repeated Level III was I heard [teacher] talking at a
conference and she was talking at that time, this was back in 80- whatever 3 or 4
somewhere in there, about the curriculum and of school and about having specific
musical goals. Before that, I was just taught Orff activities and, Heres a song and
heres an orchestration, heres the dance and now lets improvise, but I hadnt been
thinking about, Here some 16th note patterns that we need to work on and make our
own pieces out of and so forth. And [teacher] did a lot more vocal improvisation
based on motives using different structures for improvisation in addition to question
and answer which was pretty much what [teacher] and [teacher] had done.
JS: What a rich experience you had; really, I mean its amazing. To what extent do
you think you emulate your own level teachers?
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SARAH: I hope I teach clearly. I try, and one thing that I feel like I do is break things
down in the way that [teacher] and [teacher] did itteach one step at a time or
outlined the whole or make sure things are covered, as Im going along. I think what I
learned from [teacher] was that insistence in taste and artistry, choosing materials sort
of carefully so I hope that across too to my students.
JS: Ill just tell you that I think all those things do come across well to your students.
SARAH: Some days better than others.
JS: Thats how we all are. What kind of singing experiences did you have during your
Orff Schulwerk teacher education courses?
SARAH: [teacher] particularly used a lot of American folk songs in her Level I and
II, and some of those songs were familiar to me though scouts and my family singing
and some were not and it encouraged me to go back and pull up those resources and
look for songs. We did sing every day, and because she wasnt using the historical
instrumental materials, more time was spent with folk song than in later courses.
[Teacher name] did some singing although his materials were a little bit more suspect
as far as origin. With [teacher] we were singing in Level III, we were singing some
very lovely folk songs and also some sort of short art songs.
JS: Going back to what you said about [teacher name], when you say that there were
suspect as far as origin, what do you mean by that?
SARAH: I scribed for [teacher name] the year after I reached Level III.
JS: Oh yes! I remember hearing that.
SARAH: At one point, he was doing the song (singing) Mother moon is that
onethe little Chinese folk songand there was a little tag at the end of the song and
when I was doing the notes, I put Traditional Chinese Folk Song, and he said No,
no, thats my song. I know the song. Ive seen it in a book, [teacher], its a
traditional song. He said, I changed the end so its my song. So that made me
realize that his understanding of what a traditional song was and what something had
been manipulated was-- that is not as ethical as I would have hoped. And then he
would say things like, I heard this, the children were playing on the beach and I
wrote down the song, which may or may not have been true. I have no way to know.
So we did some songs from other cultures but I dont know how authentic they were.
Im sure some wereIm sure the [language] ones and the [language] ones he had
from his country with were fine. I dont know.
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JS: What about with your master classes? What about with [teacher], for example
what were the singing experiences?
SARAH: At the time she was working on a lot of head voice singing and choral
development; really fine choral literature that she was doing with the Indianapolis
Childrens Choir. I guess they were from Indiananot the Childrens Choir. And so I
learned a lot about children's choral literature from her that I didnt know. We sang
throughout octavos and looked at freeze tones and part-singing and vocal ostinati, and
ways to get children to sing well and with good literature.
JS: During your levels courses, do you remember preferring some activities over
others? And if so, which ones?
SARAH: I never much saw the point of learning like learning over and over
instrumental orchestrations. I think thats one part that whole, even with [teacher],
[teacher], and [teacher], because she had been influenced by [teacher], writing,
orchestrating perfect little instrumental accompanimentsmaybe was less useful long
term than some of the other things we learned.
JS: And were there other activities that you particularly enjoyed?
SARAH: I was fascinated in all the levels at how they modeled and how to get kids to
improvise. The structure, the improvisations, and I just had a good time. It was fun to
be child musician again and be playful, which since I had just finished years and
years at [university] and being a very serious scholar, playful was a good thing. It was
I enjoyed the most.
JS: Well, lets talk about your experiences with teaching music to children. When you
teach children, what are your favorite activities to teach and why? And also in the
opposite end, what are your least favorite activities to teach and why? And this is to
children.
SARAH: I love teaching children to sing and I do a lot of singing games and play-
parties. I love teaching instrumental pieces and seeing if I can figure out how to get
most of the kids to learn them accurately and efficiently. I love doing stories with kids
and having their input on how to build those into little performances.
My least favorite is, in my current job I do not have to do a lot of performances for
parents and my least favorite is preparingI see my students once week so I feel like
when performance is coming up a lot of that creative teaching gets lost as were
preparing for those performances.
JS: Once a week?

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SARAH: Yeah.
JS: Describe how you incorporate singing in your teaching of children? You talked
about singing games a little bit, so thats one for sure.
SARAH: Yeah. Singing games, we do canons starting in second grade. I have a

chorus that meets also once a week and I do a little bit more singing with that group
like choral development kinds of projects and more part-singing. I work a lot, even
with younger kids, on phrasing in their singing. We do folk songs. We do, I already
said, canons. I sing I think in my current situation, I sing more with the younger kids
than the older. We do a lot of singing in other languages because our December
program, which is all school is around the world holiday stuff, and so the 4th grade
will do Las Posadas or something. We do four songs in Spanish or whatever, so each
grade level is doing three or four songs to prepare for that program so a lot of us
singing happens in preparation for the December program.
JS: I think youve addressed this a little bit, but on what factors do you base your
decision on how youre going to incorporate singing?
SARAH: There are certain songs that I want to make sure all the children learn,
including some school songs that we sing altogether, so thats one factor. I keep in
my planning notebook the, I guess its the MENC list, of songs children should know
or lists of songs, just so I include the old standbys as Im planning along, so thats one
way. I try to sing every class period, and a lot of times the song material is related to
the pitch content that we were working with, so I do a lot of pentatonic songs in
second and third grade. And diatonic in fourth and some modal singing in fifth, so
that enforce the decision of what and then its integrated in and if were learning a
complicated song, Ill break it down between couple class periods.
JS: Thank you. Great. Youve already answered too, but let see if you have anything
else to add in to it. What are some examples of the music the children sing in your
class? So maybe more specific songs you talked about, like Christmas they learned
different languages. Youve talked about canons and rounds. Do they do folk songs or
what other kinds of music?
SARAH: They do, for example, third graders will sing for example All Out on the
Old Railroad while we do with the dance, and then well play do pentatonic
improvisation on the instruments. The fifth graders do Cape Cod Girls when they
were reviewing pentatonic at the beginning of the year and it ties in with their
exploration unit. The fourth graders do a lot of folk music that ties in with their study
of [state] and settlers and pioneers and so forth. So were singing Boil Them
Cabbage and Old Joe Clark and some of the fiddle tune kinds of pieces. I try to tie
into their classroom topics sometimes with the choices of the materials. So the second
graders study bugs and insects so we do Firefly and the little game song with the
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Bug under the Rugsong that tie in. With first graders, I do lots of nursery rhyme
songs. Some are chanted and some use the traditional tunes. First graders also do a lot
of animal songs with different units, lots and lots of traditional prolonged chant song
combinations, Jack and Jill and Humpty Dumpty. With my fifth graders, well do
something like Old Carrion Crow. I try to get in some of the traditional folk songs
that are a little bit more interesting to them.
JS: And also those will relate to their modal study that theyre doing, I guess.
SARAH: Yeah, exactly.
JS: Some of the research that Ive read, I think this is actually Cecilia Wang and
David Sogin and that group who worked, and Carlos Abril. Some of the research Ive
read suggesst that there are times when Orff Schulwerk students just sing and other
times when they sing in combination with other Orff Schulwerk media. What Cecilia
found was, because she did so many studies probably with your summer students, I
know that she did some after day or during their levels in [state] and she didher
first questionnaire asked them to rate the percentage of time they spent on all these
different activities and they would say, Well, I spent 50% of my time on singing and
about 50% of my time on playing instruments and about 50% of my time on moving.
It was interesting but then
SARAH: I've seen one of those videos, actually.
JS: Yeah! And one other things she concluded was Well, Orff teachers actually are
so efficient with their time because often they working on more than one thing at
once. So I just wanted to ask, is that the case in your teaching? And if so, what are
some examples of how singing is taught in combination with other media?
SARAH: First of all, we do train our teachers at [state] well. (Laughter) So they are
very efficient. Ive taught students who were in those studies. Example third grade
Hush, Little Minnieso the kids walk in and Im singing the song, we immediately
we learn the dance. We might go to the instruments and play the melodic outline on
the instruments imitatively and then were singing it again while we play that and
then half the class would go back and do singing dance again while some play would
be accompaniment. So its very much integrated in to our instrumental work. I do
have one instrument per student in my class so they can be singing while theyre
playing a melody or while theyre playing an accompaniment. So, its always a
compromise because if theyre playing theyre not always concentrating on the
quality of their singing, but it is integrated in every way.
JS: Any other ways you combine singing with other media?
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SARAH: Were singing while were moving if were folk dancing, not often, and
once again sometimes the movement takes precedence and they forget to sing. We do
some vocal improvisation in sort of recitative style. With my third graders, we always
do a story and make up a little mini opera. And so theyre doing some vocal
improvisation there. They create or compose songs in fourth and fifth grade to poetry
and so theyre singing with combination with poetry and improvising their own
melodies.
So its integrated as much as possible. I guess, the only thing we do that doesnt
involve singing would be a pure instrumental piece from the volumes or something
that we create or a movement activity, but the rest of the time there is something
vocal going on.
JS: Then what proportion of your teaching would you say is devoted to singing? And
I know, I remember that earlier you said you think that your younger students
probably sing more than your older students. So you can talk about that a little bit
more and otherwise Im not asking necessarily for percentage of time but kind of
whats the proportion versus other things?
SARAH: I would say up through third grade there really is 50% or more. Fourth and
fifth grade, once we start recorder and do more instrumental work its probably 30%
or 25% somewhere in there, depending on whether were preparing for a program that
involves a lot of choral work or not, and that varies by program and by the particular
group of kids and whether they love to sing or not but because theres so much
performance and because singing is a part of all the performances, more happens than
might, if there werent so many performances.
JS: Do the children in your classes like to sing?
SARAH: Most of them. There are occasionally kids who would rather not, but they
seem to be aware. It takes a few years, as you know, develop that love for singing in a
school. And when I first got to this school, I had some quite reluctant fourth and fifth
grade singers but now that Ive had them since first grade thats not an issue. They
also sing with their chaplain in their chapel each week and he does a lot of rounds and
very nice short songs with them so that is part of the school culture to sing.
JS: And are they good at it? Are they good at singing?
SARAH: Theyre the best singers Ive ever worked with as a school, but its a private
school clientle so they, a handful have already done like Kindermusik and Music for
Children by the time they get to the first grade. Our preschool teacher also is
exceptional and does a lot of singing with them. So they have good 3-, 4- and 5-year-
old experiences before they get to me. They singquite comfortable singing and
moving and improvising and creating and so forth.
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JS: And so like you said its just part of the school culture? Its probably what they
do.
SARAH: Its also part of the [state] culture. Singing is something we do here and its
not considered a silly or effeminate thing for the boys to sing. So thats nice. That has
been different in other places where Ive taught, like rural Oklahoma.
JS: In your Orff Schulwerk classes with children, what activities do think they enjoy
the most?
SARAH: Most of the kids love playing the instruments, as I think its probably
universal, and the drums particularly. They like acting out stories. I think they like to
sing, but I dont think they would tell that they did. I think its just something that
they do. They wouldnt say, My favorite thing is to sing. They would say, Playing
the drum or Playing the xylophone.
JS: And what do they seem to enjoy least?
SARAH: Thats a good question. (Long pause. Laughter) The older kids, some of
them really dont like singing by themselves, so they dont like it when I doing it
individual assessment, which I do. I have to know how theyre doing occasionally
and some of them dont like that. Some of them dont like group work, they have a lot
of leaders and very few followers at my school and some are very frustrated by some
of the group projects. So I guess that most of them enjoy that, but some dont care for
that.
JS: Sarah, that concludes my questions about teaching with children. So I know I
would like to ask you some questions about your experiences with teaching Orff
Schulwerk to adults. So is some of these are the same as the questions with children
and so you may answer it the same way or there may be some differences. Well see.
SARAH: Okay.
JS: First, how do you incorporate singing in to the teaching of adults in your levels
courses?
SARAH: In Level I and II, we do some folk song material that can be accompanied or
folk song material thats related to the melodic sequence. So were doing chants and
pentatonic songs in Level I and in II, reviewing that and doing modal materials. So
therere at least one or two sometimes three examples in each of those melodic
patterns for each unit or for each day I guess. I do some canons, not as many as Judy
Bond, just as starters in the morning and then were singing, were doing vocal
improvisation as well in both Level I and II a little bit.
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JS: What are some examples, youve answered this a little bit, but some examples of
the music that they sing in your levels courses. So you said canons and you said folk
songs. That may be it but
SARAH: Yeah, I think its limited to canons and folk songs. The folk material is at
this point both American folk song and occasionally a song in another language
foreign, global material.
JS: And you talked about improvisation, do they ever write their own songs?
SARAH: Yes, they do particularly in Level II. Theyre writing melodies to poetry for
assignments and theyre improvising melodies in class and talking about structures of
melodies and how traditional melodies work and using phrase forms to create
elemental style melodies.
JS: When youre teaching adults in levels courses, what are your expectations for the
kinds of musical knowledge and skills they will have when they begin class? What do
they come to you already knowing, what do you expect them to already know?
SARAH: (Laughs) Ideally or realistically?
JS: Well, lets talk about both. Ideally?
SARAH: Its not always the case, but that they can sing on pitch and that theyre
comfortable singing both by themselves and with a group.
JS: So you have adult sometimes who dont match pitch?
SARAH: Occasionally.
JS: I have too.
SARAH: And that always surprises me because Im not sure how they can teach
music to children effectively when they cant but that is the reality. Maybe one
percent of our two courses combined.
The ideal is that they have some background knowledge with folk songs and thats
also not the case in a lot of situations. There are a lot of people who dont know
traditional song material at all, and that is when I realize that my Girl Scout training
stood me well for that. I have people saying Where do you find these folk songs?
and said Well, I just know them all. Its been interesting in [state] thats not usually
so much of an issue with the traditional folk music because thats part of the culture
there for many years. Maybe less and less now than 25 years ago, but one of my best
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stories was, I had found the song Ive Got a Dog and His Name is Blueout of a
folk song book. And when I started to teach it, the tempo that I noticed it from the
book was (singing the song at a slow tempo), Ive Got a Dog and His Name is
Blue and they just took off laughing, and Im like, Okay Im in [state] now.
That would be my ideal that they would come with some background knowledge of
singing of music and of folk music, but they dont.
JS: Anything else you hope you expect them to come with?
SARAH: Its nice if they have some basic notation skills, so that they can write down
their exercises and their assignments and that also is not always given. And that, once
again, will switch location to usually students in [state] are better prepared for that
part of the course than my students in [state] and I think that has to do with music
education in schools and how it varies in the two states.
JS: So it varies by geographic area and Ive heard that, other people have said that as
well. In your experience with teaching adults, do you think music educators
knowledge and skills have changed over the last 10 years or 20 years since youve
been teaching adults?
SARAH: I think whats changed, more than their skills is, when courses are newer
they are tending to attract the top layer of educators and as courses were on in a
geographic area, they tend to get the other as well as the top music educators. So the
quality of the student musicianship, I dont think has gone up. If we were to start a
new course in a new state it didnt have a training course might see the same pattern.
It really varies year to year as well. I dont think my 20-something students have a
vocal background. The instrumental background seems to be very consistent. Kids
who come through band programs tend know and be able to do certain things and
chorally educated students dont always tend to be quite as well rounded musically.
That maybe has gotten, as programs had been cut in places like [state], I think thats
effective the quality of the musicianship that we see as an end result.
JS: So you would say that more than the time that elapsed it has more to do with, I
think what youre saying was when a course first starts in an area you think you get
the best teachers, the people with a highest skills at that point?
SARAH: I think so, because they are the ones who have the courage to come take the
course.
JS: To come do it, and then later on maybe it dwindles to people who are
SARAH: And it depends, I think this is happening with the course in [state] too. We
had a big infusion of teachers from [state] for awhile in [state] who were not bringing
strong musical skills, great personal skills and folk music backgrounds, but not
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strong, sort of basic musicianship because that culture is quite different than even the
[state] culture. And the whole school system came, and we were training 20 students
per summer from that school system, paid for by school district, and that changes the
quality as well.
JS: Based on your experience as an Orff teacher educator, what do you think are the
primary reasons music educators enroll in an Orff course? What makes them want to
come?
SARAH: They hear that its fun. They see their colleagues, especially in established
courses, which are the two that Im in now. They see their colleagues being effective
teachers based on their training, and a lot of situations in [state] and [state], they cant
get a job unless they come take the training because the expectation in the schools
that have instruments is that they have the training. Theyre starting a new school so
its a combination of pure encouragement and administrative encouragement.
JS: And typically, in a course, what are the adults favorite activities and what are
their least favorite activities?
SARAH: I think whats new for some of the adults when they come to a levels course
is, as I said for me the playfulness of it, and theyre allowed to act like children
again. They seem to like the stories. Most of them like playing instruments. They are
not always comfortable with movement, depending on their backgrounds. I think the
ones who have an instrumental background and who have not done a lot of singing
prefer instruments. Their least favorite is probably vocal improvisation in front of the
whole group; because thats new to, even to the choral people thats new, that making
up something up when everybody is listening, is a little threatening at first.
JS: You alluded to this just a little bit, have you ever met with resistance from the
adult students to any of the activities in your levels courses? And what activities do
you believe they resist the most?
SARAH: I think the three areas that are sometimes uncomfortable are vocal
improvisation, movement, and recorder playing and most uncomfortable for people
who have no experience in those areas. Any time theyre asked to do something
where they feel like everybody is watching them and they are not just so comfortable
with that.
JS: When its new thats when its outside their comfort zone so its a little
frightening.
SARAH: Yeah.
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JS: Sarah, that concludes my questions. Do you have anything you want to add to the
conversation?
SARAH: I dont think so. Those were good questions!
JS: No. I really, really appreciate your time. Im so excited because I think youre
interview number 9 and youre my last one, so hold up our coffee and tea to each
other and toast because this is it. This is the last interview and Im really excited
because I got interviews from people form a lot different traditions of Orff Schulwerk
in the United States, and Im thrilled. Youre the only person I got to talk with who
studied with [teacher] and [teacher]. Well, I think so. Or maybe there might be one
other person who took one class with them, but part of the criteria were that they
wanted me to have people who are currently still teaching adults and children, and it
was hard to find somebody in that camp whos still teaching adults and children. I
mean I first thought about [another teacher], but she is not teaching kids anymore.
Shes been away for 2 or 3 years. So, I really, really appreciate your input in to this
and go take a nap.
SARAH: What will you do with all this stuff now?
JS: Well, now it all has to be transcribed word for word.
SARAH: Heavens.
JS: I know.
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Appendix I
Examples of Coded Transcriptions

330
Appendix J
Codes from Transcripts
Janet
Cant remember when I didnt sing
Parents were C&W musicians
Rocked cradle on stage
Music = Natural evolution of my family
Family: most important music training
One room schoolhouse
Music from classroom teacher
Learned music from other kids in class
New School - bad music teachers
Coached Friends ensembles
Protest songs
Folk group with friends
Protest songs
Fad sang and played guitar
Public elem school textbooks
not taught well
Not musical
Small town - was in band and choir
Cymbals, trumpet, saxophone, piano, band
band and choir teachers not good
As a high school student, I loved to teach.
Music teacher had just fallen into it
Kids were more musical than teachers
Singing and playing insts
playing to prep accurate singing rhythm
building musicianship through other media
Score reading
elemental form anal
okay to teach aurally
rote is not a dirty word
Reduce vocal line to play on bars first
use of diff media to prop the singing - song
challenge of boys changing voices
transpose parts for boys
questioning / analyzing is imp
In OS, no medium should be taught in isolation
accompany a song w/recorder
uses singing similes for teaching recorder
programs/evaluations
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(teaches choir)
singing is the goal in choir
use of all media
performance
College - Primary inst Piano
College considered all kids as performers
Voice lessons
Piano Accompanist
Had voice juries
Choir - Accompanist and singer when a cappella
Adored singing in choir
Love o f Singing
High standards for musicianship
Vowels, Consonants, Ton Quality
Private voice lessons
Singing in foreign languages
Italian Art Songs
Breath support
Rural kids have to learn fast
Could learn fast because of strong musical background
Liebeslieder Waltzes
Beautiful dark sound, loved it
Famous guest conductor
Accompanied for Nelhybel
Huge honor
Intense music
Only had one
Liked teacher - Embodiment of open personality
Teacher wanted it to be accessible to everyone
Provided entry point for all.
No exposure to OS - It wasnt present in universities yet.
Used resonator bells.
Teacher was thinking beyond teaching the right notes
Stayed for a Masters Degree
Was at a piano teachers mtg - child demo group
They improvised
That was what I wanted to do.
Went across country for Level I (moved)
Took course because of proximity, but it was good.
It (OS) was the place where my heart resonated
Level II - bad experience
Level III - Good again.
Teacher taught singing beautifully
Started with canon every day.
332
Hour of vocal techniques every day.

Level II - Content wasnt there - very weak
Had done a lot of self-study - Ped & Recorder
Loved to play alto recorder and soprano
we have low standards for recorder playing in US
Felt punished for being a good recorder player
earned a lot about movement through
Folk dancing
Laban
Challenged in movt class.
Level II - Nothing from Volumes
No modes in Level II
Went elsewhere for Level III
Process
Elemental Music
Creating Magic spaces
Exposed to great teachers
Level II - Bad - very little singing except folk songs
Level III - Vocal music specialist
One hr/day for conducting and vocal techniques
They modeled beautiful singing
We were expected to sing beautifully and in tune.s
Vocal music emerging from activities
body percussion to learn song
improvisation
weaving lines to make the tapestry beautiful
middle school kids are intolerant of bad teaching
teaching efficiently to keep motivation
6th graders playful
7th graders dont trust themselves to be playful
when its not my choice
when its not right for the kids
reading rhythm
rhythm
creating
creating arrangements
sight-reading
Yes - most of them
some choose choir
Depends on their elem exp.
Some end up loving choir
most have potential to sing well
Musically literate
basic reading skills
333
functioning musicians
match pitch
might not be great singers
playful attitude
desire to learn
Varies
some - recorder
better knowledge of mued philosophies
better at tone syllables
know mnemonics for rhythm
been exposed to solfege
less wee at singing
were losing our singing culture
not very expressive w/speech
required for job
required for degree
ones for whom its required dont value it as highly
to get lesson plans
want to know more
they think it will be simple - not a life changing exp
level 1 is enough for some
Level IIs come back for diff reasons.
Games
playful learning
moved to emotional response
joyful music making
expressing themselves
partner songs
canons
two-part songs
music suitable for changing voices
girls - higher parts to gain confidence
canons - difficult
not always best choice for middle-schoolers
carefully constructed 4-part music for 8th
Self-composed melodies
folk songs
canons
recorder melodies from vols w/written text
Recorder
Loved improvising
Folk dancing
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Joanna
Goodnight song-Prayer
Mom
choral teacher made me feel like I had a good voice
Special ensemble
special singing group
choose cheerleader or choir
top traveling groups
madrigal choir - Big deal
renaissance / pop choir
musical - role
combine all media in performance
singing gets to be less as children get older
recorder = sight reading
tool for older kids
sing in the morning
song relates to curriculum
part - songs
singing w/some volumes pieces
writing text for melodies in vols.
Use songs that are appealing
spirituals
some folk songs
no folk song arranging
canons a capella
canons w/movt
singing and moving
sing & move to learn barred inst. part
children sing melodies before playing them.
Children sing while they play.
Adults sing to familiarize their ears w/a new sound - a new mod
We sing things w/adults that I know work with kids.
When I learn a new canon that I like, I teach it to kids.
No sight-singing
songs by echo imitation
older kids sometimes read and sing letter names
no pitch syllables, later names
Curwen hand signs
sing. letters w/Curwen hand signs - Only in C
Fixed do
transpose - hand signs stop
letter names
2nd & 3rd grades - letter names from staff
sing and play
335
sing, then play

3rd grader - Recorder then barred insts
Sing songs; play inst pieces
Write a text for Vol piece
Sing, then figure it out on bars
Sing some songs that we dont play
canons - separate for OS
more singing is goal
less they sing, more they resist
changing voices
older students resist
finding appropriate re for older students
cambiata for 7th and 8th grade boys
love singing when its range appropriate
not much singing
singing games
play parties
no memory of singing in Level II
Negative recorder exp
examine volumes
no singing - maybe canons
Level II lots of singing
learned inst pieces by singing 1st
solfege was hard - no prior exp
scribed level II
kodaly-ihs singing
sing syllables; take to inst
morning sing; canons
morning canon sing
level I - no songs accomp w/inst
2nd level 1 more singing
private voice lessons - lowest teacher
I wasnt the strongest singer - MuEd
Great voice teacher later
Variety of repertoire - art songs/arias
I wasnt as strong
textbook songs
college choir - good director - regular community chorus
choir tour - Europe
premiered music of famous compose
good directors - MS
good repertoire
felt valued by teacher
talented teacher
336
encouraging teacher
liked the repertoire
only 1 - elementary methods
textbooks - blah
cooperating teacher had just finished os levels
good coop teacher
coop teacher
children were involved
required sat os workshop in college
(Nancy Ferguson)
draws:
student involvement
student choice
collaborative work
group work
good process
bad recorder teacher
good at breaking it down and putting back together
taking a germ and developing it
solfege was a challenge
hadnt been prepped
courses vary
good movt teachers
good blend of structure and freedom
process - braking things dons
choosing quality materials
big pieces from vols
when kids create dances
singing games to little children
developing language
poetry - joy
things that bring joy to kids faces
when something is prescribed for me
movement, dancing
being active
challenge
getting recorders
polishing, re-working fine tuning
older kids dont enjoy singing much
younger kids work on matching pitch
lots of work on pitch matching
vocal exploration
individual singing
1st - 4th really sing in tune
337
canons
independent singing
middle school - more resistant
appropriate material very imp
match pitch
recognize form
move to beat
create movement
improvise in pentatonic
pentatonic analysis
Rarely, they dont match pitch.
The thing thats hardest for them
The thing they are weakest at
Taking risks in areas where they are weak
Maybe my own expectations and skills have changed
My skills have gotten better and therefore theirs have too
OS is more common - workshops, conferences
Levels courses havent changed
Saw it at a conference
Have the insts and dont know what to do w/them
Admininstrator or teacher friend encouraged them, or funded them.
Need a boost in their teaching
Need help w/how to teach
Playing the big pieces
hearing the modes for the 1st time
hearing new sounds
taking risks
excited about modes/new sounds
Making music in a big group
Movement - new to some
338
Julian:
Didnt sing much before starting school
Sing-alongs w/friends at Christmas
Church hymns
Never in choir in elem school
Pianist
4th grad play - singing
General music - Once a week
Sing-alongs w/piano
Pop songs
Remember boys singing for school program (There is nothing like a dame)
Never a singer
I was an instrumentalist
Piano, Saxophone, Oboe
Had to learn to use my voice
HS - Band
Pit for musicals
Always in th pit
Required singing class in college
Required choral ensemble
Not a singer
Third-string sopranos
Didnt make the cut
Choir directed by Doct Conducing Students
Rep was inappropriate for the choir
Id never had solfege
Hard repertoire - chose by Doct Students
Little attention to vocal technique
College - Traditional voice lessons
W/TA - Required
Voice teacher wasnt a pedagogue
Choir was just about learning repertoire
Did warm-ups
Worked on vowels and breath control
Art songs
Took Vocal ped for MUED majors
Different kinds of repertoire and show tunes
Taught by voice doctoral students
All of them
Intro to MuEd
Wanted to be famous pianist, but that turned me around
General music class
Interactive, involved
Kids - Adults (teacher did both)
339
General music - amazing

Applied to working with real kids
Hands on
Influence or great undergrad MuEd instructors
Liked Orff and Kodaly
Loved recorder, so Orff!
Orff was magical and creative.
Masterful at arranging
Magical, beautiful orchestrating
Vocal development & choir special topics time
Vocal arranging
Great recorder teachers
Great movement teachers
Choir was at a separate time.
Still OS - even in choir
More singing then than now
Times have changed. Used to be more songs accompanied by insts
The way we do it now maybe more representative of OS - fewer songs w/insts
Looking outside the box for repertoire - other countries, nationalities
Its all in there
Fabulous models
[Emotional] Its all really all of them...still there
Singing a canon by rote when tired
Depends on student
Too much repetition of the process
Some - arranging and orchestrating
Some - group work; creating
Playing insts in an ensemble, very fulfilling
Singing, unless they arent competent.
Sometimes based on rhythmic or melodic sequence
or by another concept.
One of the primary media for getting music into them
SO, I have to teach them how so theyll be successful.
Vocal techniques
Singing is an organic part of the process.
I dont have to work at it much, just happens.
Vocal Improvisation
Singing and playing instruments
Sing on solfege
Sing to learn a melody then transfer to bars
One on the various mediums they can transfer back and forth
Singing serves as the foundation
Different people prefer diff media
All 5th graders come to music once a week for choir
340
Meaningful songs for:

Time of year
Text - range - melodic movement
Structure - new concept
Text that exercises vocal articulation
Chanted (SML) poems
Diatonic songs
Folk songs
Some composed songs
Traditional Songs, Anglo, Hispanic, Afr, Am
Canons
Create their own song to a given text
Write their own melodies
Monday morning all-school meeting
Whole school sing-along
Choral octavos
Canons
Ostinato to sing w/song
Songs in French, Japanese, Spanish
Canon; Rounds
Curricular songs - Hex, modal to review level II
Depends on their grade level
Fewer and fewer traditional songs
Melody for which I wrote a text
A sung melody may become an inst piece
Song that will be transferred to another medium
Sometimes I start w/a song so the whole day wont be just about playing xylophones.
No matter their skills, we can help them to improve.
Varies from level to level
K-2 more singing; level 1 more; 5th less singing; level III less
Assume they get it by Level III not as much time on skill or how to teach singing.
I teach the adults just like I teach the older kids.
Nice if theyve sung songs in each mode.
Ability to translate melodies to solfege and rhythmic notation.
Have experience teaching in a thoughtful pedagogical way
Have had success as musical performers
Good musicians
Depends on lots of factors
This years 5th took to singing like it was birthday cake and ice cream.
They sing pretty well.
They match pitch.
With a given group, their singing ability gets better and worse through the years.
Depends on their age
OS = multimedia approach (not just about singing)
341
K-2 younger kids sing every music class

Older students sometimes play instruments for entire class period
As they get older, pieces get more sophisticated
Actual minutes of singing, ultimately, is about same, K-5
New - some 3rd graders start to resist singing.
5th - Instruments Probably their favorite
Some like to sing.
4th grade - Recorder
K-Dancing, Scarves, Puppets, Drama, Stories
Excited about the tiniest thing.
2nd - 3rd- Brainstorming
Movt to work hands-on
Solfege and patterns become I can make a melody myself
Better at improvisation and composition
5th grade - all comes together.
They realize which medium is their strength.
Some have one strength, others another.
Anything I dont like to do, I dont do.
If Im obligated, Ill teach it just enough.
Only want to teach whats in context.
Unless it can be taught organically, I dont do it.
Required for job or degree
For credit
Diff for level I than for Level III
Refresher for experience teachers.
342
Kelly
French horn
continued general music
textbooks, rhythm insts
band, piano lessons
Dad - singer
Dad - fan of music
church choir
boring piano lessons
early Christmas song
got to sing high part - fun, challenge
Christmas eve tradition
episcopal hymns - 4 part singing
played French horn but enjoyed singing
high school choir not easy
memorized music
warm-ups theory
good director, but I wasnt one of his favorites.
Good old boy
no bond with director
vowels and consonants
nuts & bolts
move while song is played by teacher to get it in their heads
melody on Orff insts first then sing
sing 1st, add accompaniment
recorder: sing it, then play it
singing and playing
singing and moving
more singing now than seven years ago
sing and move
sing before playing
sing warm-ups
good morning song
teacher sings while students move
learn song
try to sing in every lesson
added more in recent years
singing was neglected
opening song
greeting song
older kids
rounds & canons
part songs
warm-ups
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this is what we are going to do - no out

pent songs w/accomp
improvisation
folk song arr
play-parties
songs from textbooks
materials from workshops
books from workshops
younger kids
sing songs from vols w/insts
so-mi; so-mi-la w/accomp
a lot of singing
singing games in level I
a lot of canons
separate singing time
large-group singing
choir at end of day
octavos
choir concert
end of day - Tired - Full
choir director - great process
40 - 50 % involves singing
may also involve movement and playing insts
insts are the golden carrot for older students, who dont always like to sing.
Barred insts work w/challenging older students
canons - safety in numbers
insts, drums, body percussion work
french horn prim inst
required vocal ense
in non-auditioned chorus
major work with orchestra
exciting
general music class
always thought I would be a band director
liked perc methods
high standards
elem methods actively engaged
hands-on with kids
recorder playing
dulcimer
1st job thought it was MS band, but they assigned her to elem
WW methods
not very helpful teaching
wasnt effective
344
Wasnt effective in 1st year of teaching

needed materials
someone suggested OS level I
wealth of material
writing assignments
let us embrace the creative process
nurturing
recorder and movt
we could explore any venue
free-flowing open
nurturing
patient
clear - cut teaching
work at own pace
Butt heads
not enough big picture
Experience w/kids 1st validates working w/adults
real because youve worked with kids first
dealing with adults recorder anxiety
make recorder less threatening
make movement less threatening
just do it its a work in progress
free rein for expression
promote joy
process
I dont want to emulate Level II because:
structured and rigid
mostly folk dance
there was a need to let go of the reigns
Im free to mix thing up
freedom
singing games
activities in which they have a choice
group work
choices
allowed to make a decision
pride, accomplishment
depends on child
whatever frustrates them
when the teacher harps on
everybody participates
give it a try
more like to sing than dont
they like the challenge
345
match pitch
sing in tune
understand phrase length
musically literate
willing to take chances
trust
willing to try something outside the box
recorder improv
things that are a challenge for them
Just try it!
Movement class
you do it, so your kids will do it too.
Young teachers: resources, ideas
ways to engage students
Older teachers: something new
depends on individual
whatever speaks to them
all of it - the variety
improv - threatening, but in a good way, challenging
liked challenge of vocal improv
Her kids stay in choir
Proud of that!
346
Libby
Dad singing folk songs
bedtime - very sweet
Dad sang you are my sunshine
I sang all the time
sang along with records
sang and danced with mom
sang and dances with parents
sing-a-long songs
pop songs (Bad, Bad Leroy Brown)
patriotic songs
all-school sing-alongs
some instruments
creative dance records
folk songs
patriotic songs
learned some folk songs from dad
might be that mine have changed
also depends on geographic area
movt skills more limited in south
vocal skills stronger in ceratin areas
some classically trained
musicians struggle with freedom of OS
sophisticated
serious concert choir
Messiah
major works
lots of different languages
theory lessons with choir
choir went on tour to Europe
couldnt afford to go
was also in orchestra
viola
combined concerts - went back and forth between singing and playing
was in orchestra and choir
4 ensembles
2 choirs; 2 orchestras
in all-state orchestra
Pentatonic vocal improv speech to singing
playing and singing
sing recorder piece then play it
dancing and singing
singing is heavily weighted in the early grades
no inst skills yet
347
early: voice is primary inst

older - more equal balance between singing and playing
5th insts take priority
5th skills become more advanced
same as children
no folk songs with orff instruments
songs to practice modes
text settings for inst melodies
singing to learn an inst melody
sing to check or improve playing
sing 1st helps to get to artistry of song
canons
part-songs from staff
adults - read part songs
children - break it down for successful reading
teach folk songs using OS process
still an orff teacher when I teach songs
vocal improv with drum accomp
good balance of the media
not just playing inst all day
lots of canons
text settings from inst melodies
not sing to learn how to play it
sing melody and play melody (a-sing; b-play, etc)
ear training; sight singing
solfege - not hand signs
folk songs now with instruments
choral pieces
octavos
sing, then play, then improvise
find song on insts
echo imitation
pentatonic song
use bodies to find intervals
kinesthetic representation of a melody
body solfege
song-body - insts
sing it to check it with what they found on insts
ear training
analysis
folk songs separate from insts
almost unit based
sometimes heavily focused on singing - esp 3-5
pieces are harder and need more time
348
as pieces get more complex, they need more time

choir - all the way through
traditional octavos
pop
classical
level 1
lots of canons
vol 1 pieces with texts and insts
pentatonic rounds with orff instruments
wrote texts for vol 1 pieces
pent folk songs with orff instruments
teachers arrangement of folk songs
just singing or play parties with no instruments
choral experience at end of every day
level 2
folk song arrangements
singing games
canons and round
vocal experimentation
sound carpet
level 3
songs in every mode
analyzing folk songs in tandem with instrument work we were doing
fairly good
some instrumentalists are intimidated
varies by geographic area
singing alone - no thank you
assumptions about sing in OS:
we dont sing or we dont sing well
Folk songs
teacher yelled to sit up tall!
Teacher set behind piano
sit up tall and straight!
Not much feed back about how to sing
sing while playing guitar or autoharp
was ready to change major then...
NEW TEACHER!
Famous clinician/choral teacher
sang, played singing games
dances
played orff instruments
singing was fun
playful, gentle, nurturing
lots of canons
349
childrens octavos
sample lessons
we did lessons to practice teaching
started as a viola major
switched to voice major
voice lessons
teacher took a lot of MuEd majors - patient and kind
art songs, arias
concert choir and womens chorus
huge masterworks
elem:
sing-along songs
pounding at piano
not good model
shout singing
but joyful and fun
jr. high:
octavos
building solid choral skills
high school:
dir was a recent pres of ACDA
intense, well-respected
esteemed choral program
master works
college:
fabulous choral teachers
wonderful literature
sectionals
vocal assessments
serious
time intensive
classroom instruments
well-known OS teacher
music was finally fun
positive, nurturing, encouraging
freedom
integrating playing and singing
because of college classroom insts class
integration of my favorite things, moving, singing, dancing, playing
integrated arts
joy, creativity
student centered
to be an artist
Yes!
350
Copy idea, but not exact lesson

imitate how to process
recreate using my own ideas
own ideas - independent
1st week of recorders - magical
insts piece with modal transpositions
5th grade - sword dance
famous aeolian piece
4th vocal improv
5th traditional end-of-year choral piece
I teach what I want
I dont like to teach lesson thats lost its spark
If Im not enjoying it, I havent planned effectively
Something Im tired of or bored with.
playing insts
insts are novel
love to make stuff up
crate - have ideas
some love to move and dance
varies from child to child
(3rd, 4th, 5th only)
some cant stand recorder
fine motor skills
I get the most push back on the recorder
fine with movt - habit
fine with singing
Just what we do
some get nervous about singing solos
yes.
They like to sing - esp songs that strike them
they learn to play songs that they love on insts - transfer to insts on their own
I choose the right songs
songs that stick with them
some years are better than others
varies
some classes are better than others.
theory, analysis skills
sing in tune
mallet skill
fluent on soprano recorder
movt vocabulary
comfortable with movement
able to do pent vocal improv
willing to try and show up
351
steady beat competent

same as kids
demonstrating skills in front of peers
movement, improv
credit
lane change
required for degree
saw a workshop that motivated them
word of mouth
good recommendations from colleagues.
they tend to gravitate toward their strength - comfort
352
Peter:
K-Catholic School
Folk Songs
Church Songs
Christian Folk Songs
Mother sang I love you a Bushel and a Peck
Dad sang when he was alone - sang well
Dad self-conscious in front of others
Auditioned and made schools choral, but they never did anything!
Sang in church every Sunday
Sang for school masses
Jazz Band (conflicted with choir, so couldnt do both)
Piano
Wanted to play jazz
Not many boys in choir
Accompanied musicals on piano - couldnt sing too.
Choir Required
Gen Music was choir.
Everyone was in it.
Wanted to play an instrument
Piano
First choir exp since 7th grade
Voice lessons
Methods teacher was good child vocal model.
Not much singing in elem methods
Focus was on HS, wasnt in choir in HS
Sang songs for school mass
College - Good teacher, charismatic, commanding Efficient
Clear communicator
Made me feel comfortable
I wasnt trained as most anybody else in the room.
Worked on phrasing, breathing
Not much about tone
Friend in choir gave helpful hints
Teacher: affinity for Sing-Along style
Matching of tone
I wasnt in the top choral group- just the mens choir.
I recall almost nothing about singing in that class.
Felt ill-prepared to teach elem.
They prepped me well to teach HS choir or band
Middle School band and orchestra class
Wasnt what I saw myself doing
Teacher was an irritating doctoral student - Had two years of teaching experience.
Wanted to teach elem - more jobs
353
OS Training saved me.

Elem methods
Teacher had credibility
He taught in a lab school.
This guy knows what hes talking about
Gentle Calm playful
Elem methods class - a week of Orff
Methods teachers wife was an OC teacher (Taught a class)
I thought I was teaching HS
Student taught in HS choir - Didnt love it.
Placed him with this Orff woman
Drawn by the improvising
Love this improvising thing.
Loved this OS!
Sang a lot in level I
End of the day choir
Fav part of the day
Applied elemental process to choral lit.
Level 1/early childhood material based on singing
Get the melody by singing it.
Level 2 and Level 3 less singing
Didnt realize until student teaching - late in college career
OS was the whole package
Sidetrack: 1 year of teaching before level 1
No Money for levels
Train wreck
Started to plan a curriculum
Bought OS books for resources
Took level I after 1st year.
Teaching elementary
Drill, Practice - Doing it until its not fun
Work - things dont come easily
They want immediate gratification
Hard to make them understand that its going to take a while.
They like to sing when its on their terms.
Girls are more comfortable with singing than boys.
They like silly songs, sing-along songs, Patriotic songs.
A lot of it is in how the teacher presents it.
Exact same thing
Something w/instrumental accompaniment
Play and dance
Drum and sing
Sing w/recorder counter-melody
Sometimes isnt OS - Just good teaching
354
OS teacher get a bad rap for not using singing to its fullest potential
Is another tool at our disposal
Voice = 1 of the options for the texture of a piece.
Learn melodic concepts through voice 1st (esp younger kids)
Exp w/hand signs for tangible feel
Voice motivates them to get to instruments.
Singing it to see where it goes on the instruments.
1st grade - Voice is established before starting instruments.
Drone w/sung melody
I dont do many folk songs.
Teacher of class writes text for volume piece
Canons
Camp Songs
Songs they compose
Sometimes curricular - tied to curricular goal
Vocal warm-ups
Tying concepts to voice and to instruments:
high/low, up/down
Sing it, then play it.
Better at teaching singing in younger grades
Singing falls off in 3rd or 4th grade.
By 3rd, theyd prefer to play it, rather than singing it first
My struggle - I want them to have good recorder skills, but want them to sing it too
Sight-read on instruments
I struggle w/ getting singing in every day
Choir - Extra Singing
Early on they sang more
I think its more that singing has waned in our culture
Music teachers have tried to ramp it up
Seems like people used to know more songs.
Maybe the songs kids know arent the ones teachers know.
Kids get older, pieces are more challenging.
Have to find other ways to include singing
Singing is a lot of fun.
Challenge to include singing well enough
Forced myself to have them sing.
I use my normal voice (not falsetto)
Not trained as singer
Dont have a trained voice that sounds lovely
We talk about my changed voice
They laugh at my falsetto
Challenge them to sing in their range
Never enough singing
Singing is a tool
355
Singing to prepare a piece

Im happy with how they sound.
Its relative.
They all match pitch
Varies
Involvement
Having fun and making music
Joy
Anything where theyre all laughing
Making music and enjoying it.
5TH - Sword Dances
3rd - 1st day of recorder, Excitement, rite of passage
Putting the big pieces from Vols. together
Varies from course to course
Varies
Movement - some
Recorder some
Having a choice
Anything out of their comfort zone
Freedom is scary for some.
Scary to be a beginner again
Written assignment - some
No its pretty constant.
Some dont have music degrees - Classroom teachers
Pay increase
Teaching tools
Workshop
Speaks to you
Should know for Level II:
musical Forms
basic theory
some recorder skills
notational reading and writing skills,
experience with movement
willingness to take risks
be able to process info fairly quickly
Warm-ups
Sing me the line musically. Tell the story.
Some neutral syllables
Composed texts for Volumes Pieces
Sing song to get melody into our heads
Once they know the melody, its easier to analyze
If you can sing it you really know it.
Sometimes our students are overtrained as singers
356
They dont provide a child-like model.

Coloratura singing Down by the Hanky-Panky
Everybody had a piece that they brought to the puzzle.
Each had a strength. Analytical, Playful
Grounded in tradition
Human-centric
Felt safe to improvise
Welcoming
Exuberance and energy
Whole package (all media)
Creativity
Lots of personalities
Whole field of ED is a little bit thievery
In some ways, nothing is mine.
357
Robert:
Elem school - gen music once a week
4th grade - took band. No more general music and no more singing.
Sang in church - Congregation, youth choir - didnt like
HS - Full year theory course - loved it.
Good sight reader
Not a good singer/loved to sing
Joined choir because theory teacher urged me
Father loved to sing.
Father was good singer
Mother - not a good voice Didnt sing with me.
Sang some songs
Textbooks
Intro to Orff, Kodaly, Dalcroze
Focus was on how to teach a song, not how to sing.
Good sight reader, but didnt have a good voice.
Not all voices are created equal.
Teacher: Just sing, its fine.
Voice Class for MuEd
Private lessons
non-singer
Required to sing in mens chorus and mixed chorus
Loved singing in a chorus.
Elem Methods
Pushed Orff Schulwerk in methods
Proponent of OS
Observed Orff Teachers during methods
Placed w/an OS teacher for student teaching.
Never thought I would teach elem music because I was a guy
Teacher strength: Open minded
Thought OS worked well & didnt hold back
AdultsJust like the kids
Varies based on their abilities
Some-sing; some-play, etc.
More singing now
Depends on tradition
Varies
Quality of singing has nothing to do w/OS
Score reading
Some folk songs - American Editions
Endless canons
I wasnt a great singer, but I loved it so much.
Joy of singing w/group
Singing an hour a day
358
Canons, Part-songs
Some religions spirituals
Singing with Orff instrument accomp
Volumes, mostly
Learned inst. Parts by rote
Im not a singer
Some are not singers
Non-singer= asset as teacher
BUT, everybody sings
All adult students have to lead a song in class
Play parties
Younger students - sing and move
Moving and drumming
Younger kids - sing and dance
Older kids - Movt becomes extraordinary - too hard to combine other media.
Older students - Singing is beginning or end not middle.
Canons
Start the day w/a song
Singing and playing are separate.
We dont play and sing in level III
Include appropriate amt of singing.
Make sure theyre singing.
Warm-ups every day
I have to work at singing more - not strength
My liability as a singer
Asset as a teacher
If I can sing, you can sing.
Some like to sing, some to play, some to move
Joy
Letting go!
Group work
Folk dances
Street song Joyful
Decoration of the 3rd - gorgeous
Changing activities at right time - pacing
Changing it up
Barred instruments
Spirit of OS
Stories - essential to OS
Varied strengths
OS teachers have to be pretty good at all
Too much of anything
Good: variety
theory in context
359
Not much singing.

Begin with a song.
Yes, they like to sing
Yes, theyre good at it
Every class - beg or end
There is a song in every lesson
Canons
Sing at beg or end of class
we all sing
Spirituals
Singing: Technically not OS; just music
Instruments separate from singing
10 - 15 minutes each 45 minute class
Younger kids sing all the time
Younger kids sing to learn melody. Song may be melody
As melody gets more difficult, they dont sing it to learn it.
When we sing, everyone sings.
You cant opt out.
Were doing it. Theres no choice.
They sign up for choir in 9th grade because singing is fun.
Thought Id be a HS theory teacher
Some - advanced degree
Some just want to experience OS
Some - salary increase?
Staff development hours
To find something that works in the classroom.
Orff speaks to me.
They resist what they dont love - just like the kids.
Not over time, but varies by geographic area
Concepts from previous levels
Know undergrad music theory
Know that Orff is not just a drone
Score study
Play - party games
Teaching of beauty
Having high expectations/standards
Move as beautifully as possible
Sing beautifully
Dont teach it to adults if you havent taught it to kids
Local teacher not as good.
Too much score study (but I liked it)
Too much inactive time.
Know your stuff
Teach it to kids first
360
OS teacher education leads to greater understanding of music theory

Ready to do analysis
I dont teach anything I dont like to teach.
I love everything I teach
Teacher modeled trust
Saw them as students who were also teachers
Instilled confidence, respect
Taught me to instill idea of joy and beauty in OS
High expectations/standards
OS isnt fluff!
Orff Schulwerk was required for job
No choice
361
Sarah
family
older siblings sang
folk singing
mother musician
girl scout leader
church choir
school glee club
family sing-alongs in car
folk songs
vocal music teacher was formal
textbooks
traditional
canons
folk songs
band - not choir
flute
sang in choir at camp
Faure Requiem
interlochen - Verdi requiem
1776 - Martha Washington
Music Teachers 4th - 12th
demanding and formal
I loved singing and enjoyed her
(others laughed at her)
correct posture, articulation
very precise
Interlochen - Richard Wagner conducted Verdi Requiem
sing and dance
sing and play inst
when they combine media, it sometimes compromises on or other (e.g. sing and play
- forget to sing)
singing while moving - can compromise signing
vocal improv - recitative
compose melody to poetry
usually something vocal on program
purely inst pieces are only things that do not involve singing.
Folk songs with accompaniment (related to curr)
other folk songs not related to curriculum
canons - 1st thing of day
vocal improvisation
singing games
canons
separate chorus
362
I sing more with the younger kids than with the older
folk songs
songs in other languages
December program
there are some school songs that every one learns
school songs
required list for everyone
sometimes song choices are related to pitch content
we try to sing every class period
American folk songs
sang every day
folk songs - none from volumes
art songs
some materials were suspect as to their origins
head voice work
choral development
find childrens choral lit
octavos
freeze tones
part-singing
vocal ostinato
good literature
didnt like learning the process over and over
particularly enjoyed: how to get kids to improvise
fun to be a child musician again
fun to be playful
k-3 does more singing than 4-5
once they start recorder, theres less time for singing
musicals
Primary inst in college: flute
voice lessons (private) w/ Helen kemp
Helen Kemps choral assistant
voice lessons in grad school
Instrumentalist
didnt like practicing voice
voice class w/voice majors intimidating
confidence
breath control
enjoy art songs
different langs
art songs/arias
not until grad school
music psychology in cognition
fascinated w/ how children learn
363
history of mued in U.S.

Memorization, dates
openness
integrating literature
elemental
real, passionate people
improvisation
process
breaking things down
sequencing folk song arrangement
having specific musical goals
curriculum
vocal improv based on motives
some materials were not tasteful
didnt use OS historical materials.
I hope I teach clearly
breaking things down
good taste in choosing materials.
singing
singing games
teaching inst pieces efficiently
stories
getting their input
performances - lose creative teaching
playing insts
playing drums
acting out stories
singing, but they wouldnt say so
older kids - singing alone
varies by age
group work can be frustrating - too many leaders
most do
takes time to develop lore of singing
older kids are reluctant
it becomes a habit with time
best Ive ever worked with
they had music early in life
comfortable with singing and moving and improvision
part of their culture - in their geographic area (state)
different from another state where I taught
sing on pitch - not always the case
comfortable singing alone & with group
maybe 1% dont match pitch
back ground know - ledge of folk song
364
geographical cliffs
some dont know trad songs
basic notation skills - not always a given
geographic differences
no - just geographic differences
20 something students do not have a vocal background - mostly instrumentalist
mostly band students
choral students are not as wee-rounded musically
new course - 1st students are strongest
later - quality goes down
when schools pay - quality decreases too
they hear its fun
they see its effectiveness with their colleagues
required for their job
playfulness
acting like children again
the stories
playing instruments
some prefer insts to singing
varies
some movement
some- vocal improv
whatever theyre uncomfortable with
whats new to them
some - recorder
singing games
folk songs
historical songs
songs that tie in with what they are learning in the classrooms (e.g. in seats)
Animal Songs
call and chant songs
folk songs that tie in to musical concepts
canons
folk songs from all over the world
they write melodies to poetry
365
Appendix K
Coding Charts on Walls

366
367
Appendix L
Categories with Quotes
One medium can be used as a tool to teach a part that will be transferred to
another medium. (Singing Can Be Used as a Tool.)
Joanna: Always. We always sing it. So, the first melody in first grade is (singing on
So and Mi), Halloween is coming, witches in the air, ghosts and bats are
everywhere. And we teach it to them like this, Halloween isand we just have
them the sing the melody but we put the hand signs in it, and we tell them, This
[So hand sign] means play G. Now, sing what were doing. (Singing) G, G, E,
and then we go to the instruments and try to do it.
Joanna: Most of the time, when we pick a piece from the volumes, we play it on the
recorderplay the melody on the recorderand work the melody on the barred
instruments. If we write a text for a piece on the bars, then they sing it. But we don't
sing things from the volumesuntil we write text. Then they might sing a verse, play
a verse, do a verse on the recorder, sing a verse
JS: So you would take an instrumental piece from the volumes, write a text, have the
kids write a text to go with, you know, sometimes they play it, sometimes they sing it.
Joanna: Yes.
JS: And then, like you just said, sometimes theyll play it, sometimes theyll sing it.
Joanna: Like, for example, in third grade, at the end of their medieval feast, they had,
they did a song about [characters], and we wrote words for the double canon.
(Singing) [Text] and I taught the song first. And then, they figured out how to play
it on the bars. And there was a verse where they sang it and a verse where they played
it.
Kelly: Meaning, perhaps I'll have them travel freely through space while I am playing
the melody on the soprano or alto recorder just to start getting that melody in their
heads. It's not necessarily for them to perform, but it's just to have them internalizing
that melody before I teach it to them.
Sometimes I use a piano for that same thing or sometimes I'll just sing on a neutral
syllable. Just to get that melody down. There are other times that we might start
learning a melody on the barred instruments first, and then maybe it later we go back
and sing it. However, that's not as often the case as... You know, the other way
around where we sing something first and then add the accompaniment parts to go
with it.
368
Kelly: And then, with recorder, again, it kind of goes it kind of goes both ways.
What Ive found is that, if the kids know the song before we play it, obviously, they
learn it a lot quicker because it's something that's familiar to them. And just the
straight echo playing, especially if it's something that's a little bit trickier, unusual or
doesn't have a pretty predictable pattern, is really much more of a challenge because
theyre working through so many different, decoding so many different things. So,
that was something I took from some sessions I went to on recorder playing at
conference a couple of years ago and, you know, I tried that this year, where I
introduced the song sometime in the fall, just as a little singing game or activity and
then we would come back, you know, a couple of months later and play them. And
then, abracadabra! They worked, they were successful. Yeah, it really made a
difference.
Julian: By 3rd grade, if we're doing Fa and we're doing it on the instruments, we
might be singing a song that kind of moves stepwise by Fa and we might actually be
looking at the solfege on the board, and we might sing the song just with solfege. I
mean, nothing fancy, just pretty much by rote. Sing the song with the words, can you
translate it to the solfege. The solfege, Great, can you translate it to the bars? and
then go figure out how to play that tune on the bars. Oh good. Most of you started on
G and that worked. Can you start it on C and figure out what notes are playing the
part of Do Re Mi Fa So and that? So the singing is just another medium for
experiencing pitch patterns. Its one of the various mediums they can translate back
and forth between barred instruments and voices or voices and hand signs, or voices
and notation. And I've probably already said this. There are times when the song with
some instruments are the pillars of a piece, in which is inserted something else they've
created, through a sort of traditional sort of way. And the song establishes the theme
and the character and the mode or the meter or whatever it is we are about that day for
the experience and then we use other media to explore, sometimes with voices and
sometimes with just other media. So the song serves as the model from which we
explore, often because its more immediate as the first time they're doing it to then
go to the instruments and playing those just to make something.
Julian: Yeah. By the end [level III or 5th grade], there are fewer and fewer of those
sort of traditional songs, and either songs, which I tell them aren't really songs, but a
tune where I've added a text to it, because that's the most immediate way to
communicate that tune, but that may then turn into a purely instrumental piece. We
don't sing...
JS: So sometimes it's a This comes up over and over. Sometimes it's a vehicle to
get to the instruments. (JB: Yes, yes.) We use it as a tool.
Julian: Yes. In the same way, as the third graders sing a song, and then transfer it to
the instruments, and sometimes enjoyed just playing it. They don't even care if they
sing the song, but it's the vehicle to transfer to another medium. And fewer and fewer,
because by level III, we end up doing some of the bigger pieces out of the volumes,
and many of those, I don't... I would never do the vocal pieces that are in the volumes.
369
Peter: I try to incorporate [singing] in warm-ups every day, instrumental warm-ups

every day, and say, Okay, we are going to play. Tommy what'd you have for lunch?
Peanut butter sandwich. Great, we are all going to play peanut butter sandwich all the
way with the instrument and you're going to stop at this point, the E2, going to stop
there because we don't want to get too high right now, and so that when I try to mix
and combine.
JS: They sing it?
Peter: They sing it while they are playing.
JS: How?
Peter: (Singing on Do) Peanut butter sandwich, (Re) peanut butter sandwich, (Mi)
Peanut butter sandwich. So it's not a musical experience necessarily, or an aesthetic
experience, but the idea of just giving them that tool to help them explore and to see
them moving up of the instrument and tying that to their voice too. I've found its
helped them with their understanding of where high and low are on the instrument,
and then saying, Okay, great. We have warmed up our hands, we warmed up our
voices, now we can go and attack some of the things.
Peter: Voices. We start with singing and really establish that there, just to establish
that feel of what high and low are, then we combine with the concrete Curwen signs
to give you just a little more tangible feel. And you know, it's one of those double-
edged kind of things because they're doing it because they are motivated to get to the
instruments. They want to be able to play the instrument.
JS: That melody.
Peter: Exactly, that's why we're doing it so you will see where this goes on the
instrument. So that's their motivation to get there, but my motivation to hold the
instruments is so that they will sing more in tune, and that they get more excited
about the singing. So we start there...
Peter: For example, this afternoon were going to start pentatonic modes just a little
bit. And so, Ive taken one of the Spielbuch pieces and just composed words for it.
We'll use it in that setting of, We're going to sing the song first to get this new sound
into our head. Rather than just starting it from a, almost an analytical standpoint of,
If this is 5, go to 1 and then what's our scale pattern going to be? So just sing the
song. Let's not worry too much right now about where the relationships are. Just sing
me the song and now let's throw the instruments in, and explore what's happening
here.
JS: All right. So there's definitely, I'm hearing a sense of that you want them to have it
in their ears before they go to the instruments.
Peter: Yes, I think what ties in with is, and I always think of [teacher name] telling
me, I think it was curriculum class, the importance of having children express in their
words what's going on. Ask them what they did, why did they do that. If they can put
it in words they really understand it. I guess I feel the same way about singing it, it's
370
that old axiom of, If you really know it, you can sing it. If you can't sing it, you don't
really know it yet.
JS: What proportion of your teaching would you say is devoted to singing?
Peter: Of course I think the answer is never enough, but then it's always that
balance of if I do more of this one of my going to do less of. I would say it's a
significant portion because even if it's not something, as I said before, something
aesthetically amazing, if they're confused about something I will say, Okay, just sing
me the pitches. Even as unmusical as that can be just sing me the pitch names. It's
funny how some kids that just helps. They learn the song and it goes. B B A A
That's great. That's your song. Those are your words. Now it's in your head so let's
go for it. And a lot of times I will have them just sing it while they play it. Challenge
them to say can you make sure that what you are singing is happening at the same
time you're playing. Is your voice following your hand? Are your hands following
your voice or are they right together?
Peter: it's also one of those pieces of Is the performance the final, is that the end of
the assessment? Or is it what we got because we may have been doing a ton of
singing up to it but then for the performance said, We're not going to sing this
section, were going to leave this for the recorders, even though we'd been singing it
to get it into our head, to internalize it. So if somebody just saw the final performance
they might say, You don't do any singing. And I would say, I just did three months
of singing on this piece. You just didn't hear it.
Janet: I love teaching vocal music and having it emerge from a kind of wide pallette
of activities, and so in that way it's more convergent, in terms of, if I were teaching
something that was in 5/4, like (singing) Under the Full Moonlight, I might have
started it from a body percussion piece that became the rhythm of the piece, that
becomes an improvisation using 5/4 meter, and from that, the learning is much deeper
than if you just feed them the song. So I love teaching so that there is a large...it's like
having a tapestry and you weave lines in to make the picture as beautiful as possible.
Janet: if I think something is a little too hard for the kids, I might find a way to
reduce their vocal content of the line to something that they can play on the barred
instruments, and then go back and give a more complex version to them, as they
begin to sing vocally. But the fact that they've learned it through something that has a
kinesthetic response to it and visual, for some reason it helps them to be able to grasp
things that are actually a little too difficult for them to learn by the usual things.
Janet: But the voice is there for every child and it's part of every culture and so, when
I'm teaching recorder, I'm often using similes that have to do with singing. Playing
the recorder beautifully is like singing beautifully. When it comes to tension in the
throat or tension in the upper body a recorder is an extension of the singing voice.
And so, if you sing beautifully, you have everything you need to play the recorder
well. You just have to get the fingers organized.
371
Libby: I do a little bit of ear training and sight-singing kind of practice. We do a lot of
body solfege. I don't do the hand signs. We do body solfege, and find ways to
experiment with intervals. Sometimes when theyre playing something, well stop and
sing it to see if we can hear it accurately. Or a child will play a very short melodic
canon and we will try to sing it back to them.
Libby: We could sight-sing something on the board that then becomes a song, and
then once theyve played it maybe weve improvised with it a little bit too. And
finding different ways to sing with it and turn it into a song and now we go find that
same song on the instrument. We know how to sing it. Now can you find where's so,
where's la? Now can you play it? Because they already know how to sing it the
intervals are there, so it's kind of ear training intervallic relationship exercise. Can
they find it and play it?
Libby: So they have a large muscle kinesthetic representation of it, so that the
phrasing in the melody is secure in a completely different way, so that when we
transfer it to the instruments there's a conservation of knowledge they can just apply
what they already know to a different medium.
Libby: We play a lot of instrumental melodies. If it's going to be a thick texture with
the instruments, then it's an instrumental piece. But we try to sing a lot and we do a
little bit of the practicing. When they are not getting something, we'll stop and sing it;
now play it. So that you can reach the vocalists and the instrumentalists equally.
Because there's different strengths and different learning styles sometimes doing it
one way versus the other will bring some of the other students along that were getting
lost.
372
I emulate the Orff Schulwerk teacher educators who taught me.
Julian: No one can make this up on their own. You have to start somewhere, and
having seen such fabulous models, I just went out and tried to do what [teacher name]
did, or what [teacher name] had done, or what [teacher name] had done and then
began to put the pieces together for myself. And that can not work for some. They
only emulate their model or imitate their model, and I mean, as with children, we
never let them take the pieces apart or even push them to take the pieces apart and put
them together in a new way. And I was always challenged to do that. In fact, I was
challenged to do that by being invited to come teach levels, earlier than one might be
nowadays, because then I was forced to really think, Well what do I think about
this? What parts of this are me? What can I bring to this that doesn't look like I'm
imitating [teacher name]? That really set me on the path of weaving together these
strands that were for me and exploring and bringing my own musicianship that
existed before I knew about Orff Schulwerk and integrating all that into something
that was... This is what I do. Its all really all of them still there
Robert: Well, I'm not [teacher name]. I'm not [another teacher name]. I mean I know I
have strengths. In some ways, those people are still up there. I was a young guy; they
were older. They were experienced. The wisdom that I know I know that some
people look and say, [This interviewee name] knows a lot of stuff. I mean, Im
aware of that, but, I think they just seemed so smart. And so let's make it more
applicable. They impressed upon me the importance of knowing your stuff. Know
your stuff, it doesnt mean that you dont leave room for creativity or but when you
go into that class, with those people, know what you're about to do and this goes back
to what we were just saying, how does it go with the kids? What did you do?
Robert: From [teacher name], who was my teacher of course even though she wasnt
my levels teacher, just saying, Dont tell the kids that it's good when it's not good,
because when it is good, they dont care. They know you just say it all the time. And
she would say, If you're gonna use the word excellent, be careful with that. Often,
the people who didnt like [her] would be critical because they thought she was too
critical. I would just say to them, Shes just telling the truth. Orff Schulwerk isn't
fluff. We are called that by some of our colleagues, who dont respect us as much as
they should. And so, I'm trying to carry that torch from [teacher name] and say,
Come on guys, step it up here. It's Orff Schulwerk. We know about all the joy and
fun and thats so important but... So all of that stuff. I didnt come up with that stuff.
I got it all from people who are smarter than I am. I am really lucky.

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Orff Schulwerk Teacher Educators Beliefs about Singing

Julia Kay Scott

Submitted in Partial Fulfillment

Requirements for the Degree

Professor Donna Brink Fox

Department of Music Education

Eastman School of Music

Rochester, New York

Music degree in music education at Southern Methodist University (SMU) in 1982,

she taught elementary school music in the Carrollton-Farmers Branch Independent

at the University of Rochester and to teach classes to undergraduate music education

students. She served as Assistant Professor (Teaching) of Music Education at ESM

the position as Coordinator of Elementary Music for the Richardson Independent

completing this degree. I am grateful to them all, especially these:

Donna Brink Fox, my dissertation advisor, for her encouragement, invaluable

direction of research on teacher belief. It was the right path.

finish this degree.

My mother, Martha Scott, who, when I was trying to decide whether to

to mention my love of music and education.

Orff Schulwerk is defined by its practitioners as an approach to teaching

some music educators criticize Orff-based instruction, claiming that singing is

overlooked or deemphasized in the Schulwerk.

The American Orff-Schulwerk Association (AOSA) approves teacher

districts, or local chapters of AOSA. In order to become certified in Orff Schulwerk,

open-ended interviews conducted with eight AOSA-approved Orff Schulwerk teacher

were cited as evidentiary warrants to support the claims.

media, is important to the approach; however, the ways in which singing is

and by collegiate experiences with the Orff Schulwerk approach.

Recommendations for Orff Schulwerk teacher education are proposed, along

with suggestions for further study.

1.1 The Orff Schulwerk Media 2

1.2 Teacher Education in Orff Schulwerk 4

1.3 Fundamental or Overlooked? 9

1.4 Purpose and Orienting Questions 12

1.5 Situating Myself in the Role of Researcher/Insider 13

Chapter 2 Review of the Literature 14

2.1 Research on Orff Schulwerk Practice 14

2.1.1 Studies with Orff Schulwerk Practitioners as Subjects 15

2.1.2 Studies that Examine Singing in Orff Schulwerk 19

2.2 Research on Teacher Belief 21

2.2.1 A Construct of Teacher Belief 21

2.2.2 Beliefs of Preservice Teachers 23

2.2.3 Beliefs of Music Teachers 25

2.3 Summary of the Review of Literature 26

Chapter 3 Methods and Procedures 29

3.1 Research Design 29

3.1.1 Research Participants 30

3.1.3 Coding Analysis 36

3.1.3.1 Open Coding 36

3.1.3.2 Categorizing the Codes: Round 1 37

3.1.3.3 Categorizing the Codes: Round 2 40

3.2 Relating to the Research Questions 44

Chapter 4 Pedagogical and Curricular Priority Beliefs about Singing 45

4.1 Pedagogical Beliefs: Purposes of Singing 45

4.1.1 Singing to Learn a Musical Concept 46

4.1.2 Singing as a Tool 46

4.1.3 Singing for the Joy of Singing 47

4.1.4 Singing as a Separate Thing 48

4.1.5 The Orff Process 50

4.2 Curricular Priority Beliefs: Differences by Ability 50

4.2.1 Singing More Frequently with Beginning Students 52

4.2.2 Singing Less Frequently with More Advanced Students? 53

Chapter 5: Efficacy Beliefs about Singing 55