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Proceedings of the Joint Subcommittee

of the Committee on Interior and
Insular Affairs

House of Representatives

United States Senate Thursday, July 15, 1954


Statement of David Blackhoop

Statement of Robert McLaughlin 0 ) C. 0 0 o 0 0 0 C

Statement of Louis Thief .>p,, ... ,... oo,,.. o.0

Statement of James McLen . *U- U

iC 0 0 9 C.0v 0 0 0 10

Statement of William Gipp 0 1Q .)G0 -,)0) 0 0 > 0 0 0 13

Statement of Charles S Si pencer S *O U ' OJ0 0 C 0 0 27

Statement of Walter V., Fuhrman 30

Statement of Mrs. Josephine Kelley 0 .> 0 o.0 *) 0 0 33

F-en HR 9533 - S. 3612



THURSDAY, July 15, 1953

United States Senate,

House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the Committee on

Interior and Insular Affairs of
the United States Senate;

Subcommittee of the Committee on

Interior and Insular Affairs of
the House of representatives,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met at 4:55 o' clock p.m, pursuant to

notice, in room G-15-C, the Capitol, Honorable E. Y Berry,


Present: Representatives Berry and Haley.

-- Also Present: Albert a Grorud, member of the profes-

sional staff of the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular


Representative Berry. The Indians Affairs Joint Com-

mittee of the House and Senate will now convene for the

purpose of taking testimony on HR 9533 and S. 3612, which are

identical bills and which provide for the acquisition by th;

United States of lands required for the reservoir be created

by the construction of toe Oahe Damon the Missouri River and tc


to provide for rehabilitation of the Sioux Indians of the

Standing Rock in North and South Dakota and for other pur-


We will insert into the record at this point HR9533

and S. 3612.

(The bills referred to follow:)

Representative Berry. The first witness will be for

this afternoon David Blackhoop, Chairman of the tribal council

of Standing Rock Reservation.



Mr. Blackhoop. Mr. Chairman and members of the com-

mittee,6nIndian Affairs, I have here in my hands a proposed

contract drawn up between Standing Rock-Sioux negotiators

elected by the people at large and the Army Engineers and

Department of the Interior representing the United States


I have also a bill, HR 9533, as introduced by Honorable

E. Y Berry, to the Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs

June 11. 1954; in this contract the Standing Rock negotiators

and the representatives of the government definitely agree on

direct damages; that is, the loss of land and property valued

at $1,575,000.

While there was no definite agreement made on indirect

damages, the government was satisfied with a total cost of

five million dollars, $5,178,630.

Of course, we fully realize the value in dollars of such

damage is difficult to assess.

In view of the fact that we are at the cross-roads of

a transitional period, in addition to the sums requested

above, we ask the Secretary of the Interior to establish a

program of rehabilitation of the economic, social, religious,

and community life of our Sioux people adversely affected

by the construction and operation of the Oahe Dam and Reservoir

at a total cost of fourteen million dollars.

Gentlemen, I do not think these three figures are

out of line. The inherited land from our forefathers in

monetary value is priceless and the time will come when we

will cease to be wards of the United States Government.

We are fully aware of appropriations for the Indian

Service and treaty compliance have increased year by year

until it now reachAR amounts that were unthinkable fifty years

ago, and the enlarged appropriations have not resulted in the

development, the education, and the civilization of my people

to which they are entitled.

If the Oaha bill as introduced by our Representative

Berry is passed by Congress, then we should be able to take

over our own affairs under proper supervision.

I am quite sure that this is the intention of the

present Department of the Interior.

We, therefore, as that the Congress enact Oahe Bill

HR 9533 substantially in the form and wording in which the bill

was introduced.

I shall introduce four of our representatives at this

time, to substantiate what I have just said.

The first one will be Mr. Robert McLaughlin.


Following him, Louis Thief.

Next James McLen and William Gipp.

I thank you.

Representative Berry. Now to clear up a misunderstand-

ing in your statement, the total for the land is $1,575,000.

The total for the indirect damage as asked for in the bill

is five million dollars.

Mr. Blackhoop. $5,178,638.

Representtive Berry. Now, that varies a little bit from

the total as computed by MRBI, does it not? They have


Mr. Fuhrman. There is the figure above that would


Representative Berry. I see. Then the $5,178,630 is

your computation of indirect damages?

Mr. Blackhoop. So the total you ask for for the

land and the indirect damages is the sum of $6,752,630; would

that be correct?

Mr. Fuhrman. That is correct.

Representative Berry. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Blackhoop. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Representative Berry. Robert McLaughlin?

Louis Thief, James McLen and William Gipp.

Your full name is Robert McLaughlin, and your home is


Mr. McLaughlin. I live on Standing Rock. My home is

at Shields, North Dakota.

Representative Berry. Not McLaughlin?

Mr. McLaughlin. No, not McLaughlin.

Representative Berry. What official position do you


Mr. McLaughlin. I am a member of our Standing Rock

Tribal Council and --

Representative Berry. And member of the negotiating


Mr. McLaughlin. Yes, sir.

Representative Berry. All right, Mr. McLaughlin, if you

will proceed with your statement.

Mr. McLaughlin. Mr. Chairman, I am going to speak on

just that first figure up there, or testify, rather.

Representative Berry. On the indirect damages?

Mr.McLaughlin. Yes, sir; it is a settlement that we

have already come to an agreement on with the Army Engineers.

We arrived at about $38,458 less than the MRBI figure was.

That was for all trust land and, of course, would have to be

approved by three-fourths of the adult enrolled members.

I am going to hit just a few of the high spots, so I will

not take too much time here.


One of them is reserving the mineral rights and fee

patent approval issued to the landowner with the wishes of

the landowner.

Now, this figure that we have agreed at with the Army

Engineers is for the land only, and any of the landowners that

do not want to accept this figure that we arrived at don't have

to go on this price that we set the figure at.

If they wish to go to court, the Indian office would

assist those people who have to go to court or provide a lawyer

for them to fight the case.

Then the spending of this money would be under a planned

program. The people would also have perpetual rights to hunt

and fish without federal or statejurisdiction.

The government should replace roads comparable to the

present road system, and remove all or relocate all cemeteries

and monuments in the taking area.

That is about as far as I can get, I guess.

Representative Berry. Are there any questions?

Thank you, Mr. McLaughlin. You may stay here.

The next witness is Louis Thief.

You are a member of the tribal council, Mr. Thief?



Mr. Thief. Yes, sir.

Representative Berry. Where is your home?

Mr. Thief. At present I am living right in Kenel, South


Representative Berry. You will just proceed now with your


Mr. Thief. Very well; yes, sir.

Representative Berry. You are speaking on the indirect

damages,.too; is that correct?

Mr. Thief. No, I was assigned two pieces here whichare

taken directly from bill 9533. I will read this first. If

you have that there, it is on page 8, stating section 13,

line 3:

"Sec. 13. The Tribe and the members thereof shall

have rights and privileges with respect to the pur-

chase of electric power from power projects in the

Missouri/Basin on an equal basis with those accorded

cooperative associations and others by the Rural

Electrification Act of 1936 and all acts amendatory

thereof or supplemental thereto as fully as if the

Tribe and the members thereof were named in such act."

Now, as I gather we are excluded from that act.

Therefore, like we could buy our electricity individually,

but suppose someone started,some Indian started some project,

some great -- not great, but whore he has to use electric

power, some business of some sort, he will not be able to get

under this 1936 act. This is just a matter of precaution that

we took because we have been so pushed around that every little

item we want to mention; that is thq idea.

I think that is about as far as that part of it goes.

0 It is Just a precautionary measure.

Now, section 14:

"Sec. 14. The Tribe shall have the right to

graze stock, harvest hay, and remove timber from tho

taking area at such times and in such manner as the

Chief of Engineers determines will not interfere with

the construction and operation of the Oahe Dam and


Now, here I am on the tribal council and on the negotiat-

ing committee, too, aid we have talked on all this for maybe

two years. It takes that long to get it through our heads.

You know, when the water comes up, floods, it may go down

again. In the meantime the water where it was before, that

went down, it may dry up and produce a lot of grass for

forage and so forth. So we thought that if we could have free

access as we always had, why, it would be very good for us,

but not that somebody else may come in and lease it and take

it away from us. That would be very diastrous for us.

0 That is why we put that in there, that section 14.

I think that just about covers what I have to say, what I

have been assigned to say.

Representative Berry. In other words, the tribe wishes


to hold the leasing rights on all of the land from the

taking are down to the water level?

Mr. Thief. Yes.

Representative Berry. In order that you know you will

be able to bring your stock and water your stock down to the

water level; is that correct?

Mr. Thief. Yes, that is correct.

Representative Berry. You would have no objection to

the Indian Department retaining police power, however, would


Mr. Thief. No.

* Representative Berry. Not the Indian Departmnt, but the

e Corps of Engineers must retain police power over that so that

they can keep people from violating the law or ruining the

dam and all that sort of thing, but what you are interested in

is the water for your livestock?

Mr. Thief. Yes, the water.

Representative Berry. Are there any questions of Mr.


The next witness is James McLen, member of the tribal

council and member of the negotiating committee.

e Your address is Wakpala, South Dakota, Mr. McLen.



Mr. McLen. I am not a member of the Council.

I will dwell mostly on the tangible and intangibles

as it was presented by the Begotiators.

The first figure I have here is the ninety thousand

dollars. We figure we would have to have that much to get people

with moving equipment who have experience and can do that

kind of rowk and do the Job or relocating the people.

We figure it would take $625 thousand to build up homes,

putting in foundations, plumbing and move the town or country.

We also have two hundred thousand increased cost in

operating our ranches. We would have to have a building of

dams, wells, pumping equipment, gas or electricity.

We have the sixty thousand dollars the same as above for

* tribal land, buildingdams and wells and so forth.

Then we come to the potential value of timber, $250

thousand. We think this will increase in value as time goes


Like we get it into lumber, different materials, and so


The value of wildlife to Indians. Well, we have deer,

prairie chickens, rabbits, and we figure the loss to the

Indian is worth $1,360,000 in wildlife.

0 The value of timber to Indians is $1,424,982.

We figure that the Indians will get poles, posts, fire

wood, building logs, and corral poles year around. It runs

into that sum of money.



The value of natural products to Indians, $140 thousand.

We have choke cherries, Buffalo berries, grains, mice

benches, peppermint plant used for tea, and also herbs and

roots used by older people for medicine and so forth.

That is all I have to say right now, Mr. Chairman.

I think you.

Representative Berry. Are there any questions?

Thank you, Mr. McLen.

The next witness is William Gipp. Fort Yates, North


Mr. Gipps.

Smon fIs




* Mr. Gipp. That is right. I am vice chairman of the

Tribal Council and member of the Negotiating Committee.

Representative Berry. Proceed, Mr. Gipp.

Mr. Gipp. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we

have a proposed rehabilitation program. I have it written up

here. I would like to just read the introduction.

Representative Berry. Now, do you have that in such

shape that we can make that part of the record?

Mr. Gipp. Yes, sir, I intend to.

Representative Berry. All right, go head.

Mr. Gipp. The purpose of a rehabilitation program is

the establishment of the Indians on a self-supporting basis

through the conservation, development and more efficient

utilization of their resources, both physical and human, to

the end that special Federal services and supervision with

respect to such Indians will be no longer necessary.

Such a program must include off-reservation employment and

adjustments related to such employment, as well as educational

loans and grants to train Indian young people for responsible

Positions, whether on the reservation or away from it.

The program needs to be reservation-wide in scope and

application. About one-fourth of the Indian families on the

Standing Rock Reservation will have their homes flooded by


Oahe Reservoir. Damages and costs, in addition to the value

of properties taken, will be borne principally by them. Many

of these costs and damages are of an intangible nature. Some

of them are secondary repercussions arising from the dis-

ruptions and disturbances caused by the taking.

They affect the economic, social, religious, community

and home life of the people not only in the taking area but also

on the residual part of the reservation. For years a goal of

agency administration has been the rehabilitation of the Indian

people -- to get as many Indian families as possible on a self-

supporting basis.

More nearly complete Indian use of Indian lands has been

encouraged, principally through the repayment cattle and land

consolidation programs. Notable progress has been made on these

programs as well as in the fields of health, education, and the

improvement of living conditions.

The development program of the reservation will be broadened

and accelerated, and timed to coincide with the evacuation of the

Oahe Reservoir and the relocation adjustments which the Indian

people will have to make at that time.

Our map is over there. If you will notice the danger

area, the top portion up toward the center of it there is not

the consolidated area.

The other dangerous portion of that, inside that red

border, is the consolidated area which was set up I believe in


1947 by the Standing Rock Tribal Council to work toward the

time when we could block that out, let us say as near solid

a as possible, to reserve our Indian reservation.

We are asking in the rehabilitation program for $14

million. The first item we have concerning the rehabilitation

program is $3 million with which we hope to purchase the deeded

land in that area so that it might be blocked out to be solid

tribal and Indian land held in trust.

We are also asking $2 million to by the heirship land

in that area which is more or less running into quite a lot

of complications, and if the time comes, we hope it will soon

when we will be able to manage our own affairs, we find that at

this time we have sometimes 40 and 50 heirs in one quarter

collecting maybe $30 or $40 on the quarter which is divided up

in a matter of a few cents per person, per acre, and the ad-

ministrative end of it is running into a lot of money and is

doing nobody any good.

Our next item on the rehabilit-tion program is educational

loans and scholarships, vocational training.

Representative Berry. How much for that?

Mr. Gipp. That is in the amount of $2 million.

The negotiating committee in drawing this up through their

tribal council and in requesting this $2 million they are re-

questing that this $2 million be held in the Treasury of the

United States and to draw interest at 4 percent which would


make a yearly income of $60,000, which we would use for scholar-

ships and grants to our young Indian boys and girls,

Through the past years, we have had too few who have gone

W on beyond high school. This last graduating class of 1953, we

had 17 graduates. I think four went on to school. This year

we have had 23 graduates, and I believe there are about four

who are planning to go to school.

We have a scholarship set up from tribal funds of $1,000,

and shortly before I left home, there were only two pledges made

for that scholarship. So it indicates that they are not going

on to school.

Representative Haley. You say you had a scholarship set

up of $1,000. That is each, is it not?

Mr. Gipp. No. The scholarship is just $1,000. That will

go to the student selected on grades and so forth.

We also find many of our young folks are hesitant about

applying for educational loans. We do have a small fund. We

have borrowed from the United States Government and we are

paying interest on it, and it is more or less a revolving fund;

but they are very hard to collect.

We have several thousand dollars now outstanding, delinquent.

Once they have gotten the money and gotten the education, it is

very hard to collect unless they should come directly back and

work directly for the tribe.

If we could give this money out in the form of a grant,


I believe we could entice them due to the fact that it was a

grant and that they would not have a debt hanging over their

heads once they were through college.

I believe that is about all I have to say on education,

excepting that we have also set aside $500,000 for training,

placement, and relocation of 200 individuals and families,

including one-year's training at $2,500.

We have a lot of people in our tribe who have, I think I

am safe in saying, passed the eighth grade. I believe our tribal

council is made up of 15 members, and I think there are two who

have graduated from high school.

There are a lot of these boys and girls who are past school

age. They do not feel like they want to go to college because

they have not had high school training to prepare themselves

for college, but would probably go to a vocational school. So

we have asked for $500,000 for vocational training and place-

ment of these people once they have gotten their training.

We are also asking for $1 million for housing and con-

struction and repair of 500 homes at $2,000 each. Our re-

habilitation program means Just that. We have too many momes

that are not sanitary, they are inefficient, they are too small.

We have a great many of our people that are still living in

little log houses, one room, dirt floors, maybe one window.

These people have never had a rehabilitation program from the

time that we were taken under the supervision of the government.


Now there was a time when they built a few homes out there

for a few, but they were very few. If we are going to be able

some day to take our place in American society and be free from

the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, I think our first

step should be to put our people in decent livable homes.

Domestic water development. Now we have people, right in

my agency at Fort Yates, my home, a modern little town -- we

have people hauling water with wheelbarrows from one end of the

town to the other. We have no water. That is righ in town,

let alone in the country. We have many of our people who live

in the country, come to town maybe twice a week for the pur-

pose of getting water. There is a great need for wells and

dams, of course, also for livestock.

Household furnishings. Now that could have been probably

connected with housing construction and repair of homes, but

we have it separately.

We have asked for $375,000 to furnish the homes of the

needy people.

I believe I took a check before I left home and I think

there were two or three families living outside of government

quarters now, in the town in general, who have sewerage. I

think it is three out of about 350 people. Three had sewerage

in their homes.

Now recreation facilities, community buildings, gymnasiums,

and so forth. We had asked for $200,000. We have seven districts


in our reservation. There are only one or two, I believe, that;

brve any recreation facilities of any kind. They are isolated,

no railroads.

I think Mr. Berry is well acquainted with Bullhead, South

Dakota, for example. It is about 18 miles to the nearest rail.

road, very bad roads, and they have no recreation facilities,

no gymnasium, no play ground for their children.

If these things are not furnished, I assume we are going

to have a problem because we have already started on the

juvenile delinquency road the same as the cities are. We feel

there is great need for gymnasium and recreation facilities.

Agricultural loans. We have borrowed $250,000 from the

United States Government, and it is being loaned out to the

tribe through its credit committee to different Indians who are

interested in agriculture.

But the plan of operation is set so and the funds are so

limited that I think in the beginning when it started we issued

out as few as 10 heifers per family. We have now gotten that

up to 30.

Now recently we are trying to get them so that we can iss'ie

50 head. But the program is too small for the amount of live-

stock operators we have. We are asking for $2,452,000 to set

up 47 units at $10,000 each, that is 60-cow units. That would

include also machinery, laying equipment, additional small

machinery, stock watering development, fencing, stock shelters,


and so forth.

Our next item is business loans. We are asking for

$250,000. We find too many of our people at home who are not

interested in livestock. They have probably had very little

education in our Indian schools. And yet the Government in

educating us Indians, there was one thing they forgot; that was,

to teach us how to live and get along with the white man. So

we don't have the tendency to leave the reservation. There-

fore, we feel that we have a few people at home who would be

interested in going into other businesses, such as filling

stations, hotels, restaurants, or what have you. So we are

asking for $250,000 for business loans.

The last item on our rehabilitation program is the item

called per capita distribution of 4,600 shares per capita


I know there is going to be some controversy over that

probably. Some members of Congress or the Senate might feel

that a per capita payment is not justified, that it could not

be made, that it could not be justified. But when these people

are moved out of the taking area, as Mr. Case mentioned here

this morning, they are unfortunate in a way and yet they are

fortunate because they are going to be relocated and set back

up as they were, or better.

But when they are moving out, they are going to disrupt

other families, and it is going to cause disruption on the

whole reservation. We have gotten to the point now where we

feel that the Government does not have too much jurisdiction over

our land when it comes to leasing.

Ten years ago the Government used to say, "Well, now, we

will lease you so and sos land without consent of the owner."

But that day is passed.

We are having trouble now, and we will have worse trouble

once they start to evacuating these people who are in the

taking area because they are going to go out and move back, they

are not going to move too far back, they are going to move right

in the thickly populated areas because maybe they own a piece of

land there or their grandmother owns a piece of land.

So we feel a per capita payment can be justified. You

might even take into consideration the severance, the things that

are being taken away, say, in timber, and although that is in-

cluded, they are going to pay us for it, and what it would

amount to in the years to come.

But I don't believe that you could find over a dozen

Indians on the whole reservation who are burning coal or fuel

oil. We burn wood. Timber and wild life is very, very

essential to us. It is something that was not given to us.

It is something that we have always had.

I believe that is about all. Thank you, Mr. Berry.

Representative Berry. Thank you, Mr. Gipp.

Do you have any questions?


Mr. Grorud. You live at Fort Yates?

Mr. Gipp. Yes, sir.

Mr. Grorud. That is the county seat, is it not?

Mr. Gipp. That is right.

Mr. Grorud. A lot of white people living there?

Mr. Gipp. I would say about a third of the population

would be white.

Mr. Grorud. Isn't it the way, two-thirds white and one-

third Indian?

Mr. Gipp. No, sir. Now that is not including the Indian


Mr. Grorud. The Indians live the same as the white people,

don't they?

Mr, Gipp. No, they don't. They live there, but not the


Mr. Grorud. They are the same class of houses?

Mr. Gipp. No, sir.

Mr. Grorud. The whole reservation is checker boarded, is

it not?

Mr. Gipp. You mean as far as whites are concerned?

Mr. Grorud. Yes.

Mr. Gipp. According to that map, you will find in that

consolidated area there are less white than there are in the

lighter part of it.

Over the reservation as a whole we estimate about 50


percent are white.

Mr. Grorud. You want money to buy the inheirted lands,

fractionated lands?

Mr. Gipp. Yes.

Mr. Grorud. What do you intend to do, make a closed

reservation out of it?

Mr. Gipp. We would like very much to preserve it for

our next generation, our children.

Mr. Grorud. You would like to have the reservation continue

forever, is that true?

Mr. Gipp. I think I would be save in saying yes. That i.s

my opinion.

Representative Berry. I was going to ask in connection

with this rehabilitation program, has the tribal council talked

over at all anything about how this would be handled by you in

the event that a rehabilitation program were passed for the

Standing Rock people?

Mr. Gipp. Yes, sir.

Representative Berry. How do you plan to handle it?

Mr. Gipp. We plan to suggest a course to the council

and through the representative of the Bureau of Indian Affairs,

and we would have to set up, as we are practically set up now,

with a credit committee, an investigating committee to make

surveys, to contact the people who would want to go into this

or that sort of business, what they will need to do it, and how
. I iI I


they are going to do it.

They will have to meet certain qualifications. In fact,

they would have to make application. When you make an ap-

plication it does not mean that it will be approved. It could

be rejected.

Representative Berry. Now have you considered hiring a

good manager?

Mr. Gipp. Yes, that has also been discussed.

Representative Berry. Would you personally and does the

council feel that that probably would be the way to handle it?

You are talking about 14 or 15 million dollars here, more than

that, $19 million altogether. That is a pretty big concern, is

it not?

Mr. Gipp. That is right. We hope that we could ride

along with the Indian Bureau for awhile, but if they are with-

drawing then of course we would be I suppose correct to use

some of that $14 million to employ people who are capable of

managing our affairs, as long as the Secretary of the Interior

feels that we are still not capable.

Representative Berry. The purpose of the rehabilitation

program would be to get the people of Standing Rock in condition

where they could handle their own affairs, would it not?

Mr. Gipp. That is right.

Representative Berry. And possibly a generation from now

you would not need the Indian Department any more, is that


Mr. Gipp. We might even say if this thing had been done

20 years ago, maybe you could withdraw your Indian Bureau today

without any hardship or any complications. But we have been

riding on such a thin sheet, just a mere existence.

I mentioned the type of homes. The income on our reserva-

tion per head is so small in wages -- in making this a part of

the record, Mr. Berry, this will tell more than I can say, I


Thank you.

Representative Berry, Without objection, the statement

entitled "Estimated Cost Items in the Rehabilitation Program

of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe", one page, and "Proposed

Standing Rock Sioux Rehabilitation Program", consisting of

15 pages, will be made a part of the record at this point.

(The documents referred to are as follows:)


Representative Berry. I think that is all, Mr. Gipp,

unless there are any questions.

Are there any other questions for any of these four


-1 fla. If not, you can be excused.


Representative Berry. I am going to call Superintendent

Charles Spencer, Superintendent at Standing Rock.



Representative Berry. How long have you been there, Mr.


Mr. Spencer. Two and a half years.

Representative Berry. Where did you come from when you

located there?

Mr. Spencer. I had previously spnt ten years on the

Wind River Reservation in Wyoming.

Representative Berry. You have worked with the tribal

council committee closely in preparing this bill and making

their preparation on what they intended to ask for, what they

thought was fair and just in this proposal, Mr. Spencer?

Mr. Spencer. I have, yes.

Representative Berry. I am going to ask you, for the

benefit of the committee, to wind up, tie the loose endsall

together, if you will.

Mr. Spencer. I will be glad to.

Now, following the introduction by our Chairman, Mr.

Blackhoop, Mr. McLaughlin was called upon to present the first

pat of House Bill 9533. He reviewed down to line 3, page 8.

Contained in that part of the bill is mostly points

that have been agreed upon between the representatives of the

Army Engineers, representatives of the Secretary of the

Interior, and the negotiating committee. That is covered in

the main part of a te'-ative contract between the United

States and the Standing Rock Tribe of Indians.

I ant to point out that that portion of this testir.ony

has been agreed upon and j also want to point out further that

in th.s agreement the tribe accepted $1,575,000 as the value

of the land and the appurtenent resources on it, buildings,

fences, and so on.

That is about thirty-eight thousand dollars less than

the Missouri River Basin appraisal. They made this concession

in the hopes that they could go on and have a complete negotia-

tion with the Army.

However, it appeared that the Tribe and the Army were

so far apart in their negotiations that they broke down at

this point. These negotiations, of course, were based upon

public law870, which had expired at that time, but certainly

was the foundation of the negotiations.

In Public Law 870 the tribe was allowed to present as

an appendix any other factors that +hey wanted considered in

the settlement.

As a part of this same contract between the Standing

Rock tribe and the United States, there is an appendix and in

that appendix is outlined the indirect costs to the tribe.

That is the portion that Mr. McLaughlin discussed.


Following the indirect cost is the rehabilitation

program with a statistical summary on page 4 of this contract.

These three phases of the program total $20,753,630.

I might add that there was a lot of work, a lot of hard

conscientious thinking went into the development of this

contract, both that portion that is agreed upon between the

Army Engineers, the tribe, and the Secretary of the Interior

and also this portion in the appendix where the tribe is

requesting payment for indirect damages and for a rehabilitation


I do not believe I have much more to say. I am suggost-

ing that a copy of this contract also be made a part of the

record as it is the basis of the bill.

Would that be in order?

Representative Berry. Without objection, it will be

made a part of the file.

(The document referred to was received and made a

part of the committees files.)

Representative Berry. Are there any questions?

I think that is all, Mr. Spencer. Thank you very much

for coming.

I will now call Mr. Fuhrman.

Will you come forward please, and give us the size

of Standing Rock Reservation?




Mr. Fuhrman. I have here the acreages of land owned by

the Indians. I do not have the total figure.

Representative Berry. The total area?

Mr. Fuhrman. I don't have the total area.

Representative Berry. It is quite extensive, is it not?

Mr. Fuhrman. Yes.

Representtive Berry. What is the total area owned by


Mr. Fuhrman. 1,026,655, when this report was made.

Representative Berry. How many acres will be taken?

Mr. Fuhrman. 55,994.

Representative Berry. That is all bottom land?

Mr. Fuhrman. Well, it runs up the side of some bluffs

so that it would be bottom and some bench.

Representative Berry. Similar to what we were talking

about on these other two bills this afternoon?

Mr. Fuhrman. That is right.

Representative Berry. Now, what is the total enrollment?

How many families live on Standing Rock?

* Mr. Fuhrman. We have 680 living on the reservation.

Representative Berry. How many families will have to be


Mr. Fuhrman. We figure 170 living in the taking area


and twenty in the fringes, so a total of 190 families.

Representative Berry. In your estimation by moving about

190 families, is it going to quite seriously disrput the pre-

sent location of the Indians living on Standing Rock?

Mr. Fuhrman. I think there will be quite a large dis-

ruption in certain area and, of course, over the areas as a whole

their life will be disrputed by reason of the fact that so

far as wildlife and game and timber is concerned, they will

have to get their meat somewhere else and their fuel somewhere


That applies to practically all families on the reserva-

tion, not only those in the immediate taking area. All of

the m use the timber and game and so forth.

Representative Berry. Now, would you just briefly give us

a rundown on the totals on the direct and indirect damages on

this reservation as you did on Crow Creek, please?

Mr. Fuhrman. The total appraised value of the Indian

properties we placed at $1,613,045. That is, as on the other

reservations, exclusive of any mineral values and also

exclusive of any severance damage to tribal properties.

It does include severance to individual allotments, and

it includes the timber, the commercial value of timber an in

the other cases.

Now, the first category of indirect damages, the cost of

reestablishing homes, ranches and the economy we figure woulc


take $726,546 in addition to the moneys that they would get

from payment for their real estate.

The damages sustained by loss of timber, wildlife, and

wild products, we figure at a net loss of $2,362,527.

The total indirect damages, including an item for intan-

gibles, amounts to $3,904,559, making a total of both direct

and indirect damages of $5,518,013.

I think that presmts the summary of the data.

Representative Haley. Are there any known minerals on

this land?

Mr. Fuhrman. There are not any knoa minerals of

commercial value that I am aware of.

SI think you might check that with Mr. Spencer.

Mr. Spencer. There are a few small known coal deposits

that probably could be developed.

Representative Haley. Nothing other than coal?

Mr. Spencer. There are probably two wells beingdrilled

that we hope will be productive.

Representative Berry. Thank you very much.

Mr. Fuhrman. Thank you, sir.

Representative Berry. Is there any other evidence anyone

wishes to put in at this time?

Mrs. Kelly. I would like to say a few words.

Representative Berry. You mean in favor of the bill?

I might state for the record that there is opposition


to this bill.

We have two or three witnesses from the Standing Rock

Reservation who are here opposing the bill in its present

form. I have not had an opportunity to talk with them. I do

not know what their proposal is.

I am going to ask Mrs. Josephine Kelly who, as I under-

stand, is the chairman of this delegation that is here in

opposition,to take the stand, if you will, please.

Now, Mrs. Kelly, your name is Josephine Kelly. Y1 u live

at Fort Yates, North Dakota?



Mrs. Kelly. No, I am not.

Representative Berry. You formerly were chairman of

the tribal council for how many years?

Mrs. Kelly. Four years.

Representative Berry. And were chairman up until when?

Mrs. Kelly. 1951.

Representative Berry. When you were defeated?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

Representative Berry. All right, we will proceed, Mrs.

Kelly, with your statement.

Mrs. Kelly. I would like to tell your honorable committee,

I was sent here and elected by the people at large. The people

at large are opposed to the passage of this bill in its form.


The reason why they are opposed to it is because our

present tribal council, our present tribal business council and

the superintendent have had many council meetings, all behind

Closed doors. The people do not like that.

There were one or two meetings that I went to that they

told us to get out, closed the doors on us. The Indians

don't like that.

I like to be open and aboveboard on business.

At one time I went to the council and I just happened to

be in there while they were making changes in the proposed

contract. Mr. Spence was reading the proposed contract and,

of course, the council -- I don't remember, I have to put this ir

a now because I planned to have all the papers ready tomorrow

because, according to Congressman Borry's letter to me, this

hearing was supposed to be to.wrrow.

We have two dologatoe that were supposed to be here today

from Thoe outh Dakota portion, that is Hr. Berry*a district, but

they planned on being at the hearing tomorrow and they are

not hero yet.

One is Mrs. Rodfish and the other one is Mrs. Ankle.

This meeting I was goi to talk to you about where they

Were proposing their changes in the contract, why, then, during

the course of the discussions and so forth, 1 heard our

present chairman, Mr. Blackhoop, make this remark:

"The thing is vu want to railroad this through."

35 ,

Of course, I usually take things for granted. When

remarks are made like that I make a big hill out of a small

mole, but that remark itself kind of put me wise to something

that should not be said.

Anyway, I listened to the people and they do not like

this proposed bill at all, especially the rehabilitation bill,

the long-range program. They don't want that.

A few years ago Congressman, Mr. Lemke, introduced a

rehabilitation bill and Mr. Blackhoop and his bunch were all

against that, and you, yourself.

I think it was at a time you told me I was a new dealer,

you said, "Josephine, I thought you were always for the people,

now it looks as though you are a new dealer."

Wasn't it something to that order?

Mr. Grorud. Maybe so.

Mrs. Kelly. So I have always remembered that.

Mr. Grorud. You are back to your old stand now.

Mrs. Kelly. I never did change.

Mr. Grorud. I thought you had changed.

Mrs. Kelly. No, I didn't. The reason I was for that,

Just like Mr. Gipp said, the horrible condition on the

0 reservation. The Indians are in just an awful shape. Mr. Spuncer

knows that, too.

Representative Berry. How do you propose to help them get

out of that shape, Josephine?


Mrs. Kelly. We have been waiting for years and years for

the Indian Bureau to help us. Instead of that, they are build-

ing themselves up and we are going t" the bottom. The children

are hungry and they are starving.

Representative Berry. Do you think a program of rehabili-

tation would be helpful?

Mrs. Kelly. I don't know. I think the people will havo

to be given time. The council should have gone around explain-

ing things to the people instead of doing things behind

closed doors.

Representative Berry. Are these people elected to

represent the members of the tribe?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes, they are supposed to represent them.

Representative Berry. Do not we have a representative

form of government in this country?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

Representative Berry. Does everybody have to get in on


Mrs. Kelly. We don't like the iron curtain stuff. We

like to sit in there and listen, too. They don't like to hear

outsiders that come in.

Representative Berry. Is that the reason you are pro-

testing this bill?

Mrs. Kelly. I am protesting for the people. I have here

a petition signed by the people who are opposed to the passage


of this bill at the present time because they are not satis-


Representative Berry. Did you get some of those at

Bull Head?

Mrs. Kelly. The ones from Bull Head district -- Mr.

Redfish was supposed to bring them. These are from tne Shi eld

district, some Cannon Ball, some from Fort Yates.

Representtive Berry. You got quite a bunch of them at

Bull Head?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

Representative Berry. Did the people come to you at

Bull Head and ask you to come down here and represent them?

Mrs. Kelly. Sure.

Representative Berry. You did not make a big speech at

Bull Head and tell them what a crook I was and not to vote

for me?

Mrs. Kelly. I suppose I did.

Representative Berry. That is the report I got, too.

Mrs. Kelly. You know politicians all kind of hang


Representative Berry. I wonder.

Irs. Kelly. But you get a lot of Indian votes. People

asked us to go down to Bull ]Head. They talked about it and they

were pretty much upset over that bill that was introduced.

Representative Berry. Because the bill represented what


the council had decided upon back of closed doors; is that

the reason?

Mrs. Kelly. There is the rehabilitation, they don't

want that long-range program.

Representative Berry. Explain to the committee what

they want?

Mrs. Kelly. We have been waiting for years and years --

Representative Berry, You mean they want a per capita


Mrs. Kelly. The government promised things to us in

our treaty. That is why our grandparents signed treaties.

Representative Berry. Tell this committee, and for the

purpose of the record, what you think in your judgment th

people of the Standing Rock Reservation want?

Mrs. Kelly. We want somethind done for us just like

theforeign countries come over here from across --

Representative Berry. Let us not go into that. What is it

that you want? Lay it out in dollars and cent figures.

Mrs. Kelly. I don't know dollars and cents myself. We

are Just bearly existing. That is all the Indians are doing.

We want better conditions.

Representative Berry. How do you propose it?

Mrs. Kelly. When the Indians go to the office for their

money, they say, "You can't have your money today, you have to

wait, it is not posed. You had so muchmoney last year, that is



enough to last you two or three months, "and so forth and

the poor Indians in your district have to walk way back or

catch a ride back without the money.

Representative Berry. That is exactly the reason why

I would like to see some kind of program to put them on their

feet so that they can make a living. If they want to go into

the cattle business let us get them in the cattle business.

If they do not, let us give them an opportunity to go to

school. Let us try and get this next generation in shape so

that they can make a living for themselves and not be in the same

condition that these people that you are talking about are in.

Would not that be a nice thing?

Mrs. Kelly. Years ago we were all well fixed. We were

independent. We had our homes, our cattle, and everything else.

You know that.

Representative Berry. What happened?

Mrs. Kelly. The Indian Bureau and, of course, depres-

sion. The Indian Bureau is getting so strong they don't care

about our condition now. Our conditions are deplorable. It

is a shame and a disgrace to the Government of the United

States when the Indians are living the way they are now. It

is Just terrible. I can tell you that.

Representative Berry. Nobody is arguing that.

Mrs. Kelly. I know they are nt, but The idea is Indians

in the Bull Head district and any other district, are against

this program right now, te way it is put through, or they are

trying to put it through.

That is why they seut us here. Now, if our other two

delegates were from the South Dakota portion, I would like tc

have had them here so they could testify.

Representative Haley. What do they suggest in lieu of


Mrs. Kelly. With me I am like the rest of the Indians,

I don ' t have a home. Mr. Gipp brought up certain facts here

which I thought were pretty good. He says no sanitation and

so forth, water and so forth, is bad in Fort Yates, how the

people have to come in after water.

Well, we have the best water system in Fort Yates. We

have a sanitary place there put up by the government, a No. 1


There was a time during the WPA programs there was a

project started in Fort Yates to put water on the townsite from

the Indian reservation. When that was put out we had the

understanding when I went to the state administrator in Bismarck,

he said, "Well, we are going to have a water project down

there and the Indians are going to get water free." That is

* what they told us.

Of course, as poor and hard up as I am, I had seven small

children with me at that time and I wanted them to drink pure

water, so I bought myself over two hundred feet of pipe which I

could not afford, but I did anyway so that my children could

drink pure fresh water. And I did.

* Representative Haley. Your people, then, do not believe

that this bill is a step in the right direction at all?

Mrs. Kelly. They donOt want it in this form. They want

them to change it.

Representative Baley. In other words, it is your conten-

tion here that your people just want to go on just as they

are now; is that right?

Mrs. Kelly. No, they want something better. They have

been waiting for it for years and years. Now this bill comes

and it is not going to be for the benefit of the people.

Representative Haley. How manyof the people know about


Mrs. Kelly. They don't know about it. I had to go ask

the superintendent. I don't know wether the Congressman sent

me one. I am going to tell you about that water.

I have been fighting the Indian Bureau for years. Mr.

Grorud knows that. When I got the water pipe down to my house,

once in a while the water company would turn it off. "You are

an Indian. You can't have the water unless you pay so much and

Sso forth", and the water is coming from your Indian Agency.

Finally, they went on and they turned me off again. Mr.

Lippard had it in for me and so forth. When he left he left

that little feeling that he had for me; he left it there in


Fort Yates.

For a while I was lucky enough to get up in government

quarters where I did enjoy a bath tub and all those sanitary

things. I don't know what you call them, but anyway, I

enjoyed everything with my children.

Finally I was going back and I asked Mr. Spencer if he

could fix it some way so that my house could be connected with

the water line. He said he couldn't; I would have to see the

water company on the townsite.

I went to them and they said, "Well, we will connect

you up sometime." That was the story.

I went back there. I was back in my hcue that belonged to

my children. From May, June, July, August, September,

October, I was after the water company on the townsite always

to connect me up and they would not do it.

Then I never had the water. l kept hauling water just the

same with all the pipe I had bought, we hauled water. Then on

the last night of December, I had a big fire and my whole house

went up in smoke. Three little grandaughters burned up

with it. If I had had water I could have put out that fire.

Representative Haley. What is your proposal? Are yov

just here opposing this?

Mrs. Kelly. I am just telling you I am opposing here

because the people sent me here to oppose it.

Representive Haley. But you offer nothing to take its




Mrs. Kelly. This was done in a hurry and we did not

have time to get anything in place. We waited one hundred years

for the government to fulfill their treaties with us and they

have not done it yet.

When this come up, Mr. Spencertold me, I went to see hin,

I said, "I heard there is a delegation going to Washington,"

He said, yes, they were.

"What are they going for?"

"No business at all; they are going down there just to

listen to the Cheyenne River delegation and their contract."

Representative Berry. How long ago was that?

Mrs. Kelly. I don't remember the date.

Representative Kelly. About a month ago?

Mrs. Kelly. About a month ago.

Representative Berry. That was the truth, then.

Mrs. Kelly. They came there to listen?

Representative Berry. That is right.

Mrs. Kelly. They didn't give any delegate authority to

do business?

Representative Berry. That is correct.

Mrs. Kelly. Then when they came home this bill came up.

Representative Berry. It would be about that time.

Mrs. Kelly. Then, of course, the people heard about it

and they really did not like it. They did not like the proposed

rehabilitation bill.

In that fourteen million dollars that they are asking

for, they have their school loans and so forth. Didn't the

government in their treaty say "We will educate your children",

and so forth?

Representative Berry. Who is giving this money hero

if it is not the government?

Mrs. Kelly. The government. We are giving our homes

and our land and so forth. What is that? That is nothing I


Representative Berry. That amounts to $1,575,000.

Mrs. Kelly. It iswrth more than that to us.

Representative Berry. Let me explain briefly -- it will

not do any good, but let me explain briefly -- the United

States is putting in a dam across the Missouri River. They are

going to back the water, they are going to cover up quite a

little bit of land on the Standing Rock Reservation.

Now, under the law they can do exactly the same with the

Indians that they can with the white people and they will

condemn your land and pay you a market price.

Now, they can do that.

Mrs. Kelly. I know that.

Representative Berry. You would probably bet about a

million and a half dollars. That is all. Under the law they

can do that.

Mrs. Kelly. What was the amendment added 6nto Public

Law 870?

* Representative Berry. Public Law 870 was passed for the

purpose of helping to take care of the Indians, to make

additional payments in addition to what the Army Engineers

ordinarly pay to white people. It pays damages for disrupting

the reservation; it pays damages for taking from all of the

Indian people, fruits and nuts and wildlife and so forth.

Mrs. Kelly. I know that.

Representative Berry. Then in addition to that, not

because it is a requirement at all, but because we think that

this would be the time for the government to rehabilitate and

habilitate these people, give them an opportunity to make of

themselves something so that in the next generation they won't

maybe have to be under the Jurisdiction of the federal

government that has been growing as you say all the time.

Maybe we can cut them down a little bit. That is the pur-

pose of this rehabilitation program. Those people who can

make a success of the cattle business, let us get them in the

cattle business; let us help them.

Those who can't, let us send them down to Springfield or

Some place, up to this school up here, Wakpala, North Dakota,

where they can learn some vocation.

There may be some who now aremechanics, or something 11lkj

that, and they want to move into town.


Under chis bill we could help them to buy a home in towti

so that they could be located there, so that they might not

have to come right back to the reservation the day after they

lose their Job, and these kind of things, in order to try to

give them an opportunity to live with the white people and

compete with the white people.

Mrs. Kelly. Mr. Berry, we have Indians on the reservation

that have beendoing this for years. They have gone off the

reservation and made the best living and so forth. We have one

back here. Peter Lookinghorse. He is, I think, one of the

best mechanics in Bismarck. He has a good reputation. He is

sending his children to the public schools. That was before

the Indian Bureau started rehabilitation.

Mr. McLaughlin took twenty-five or thirty years to be where

he is, but he is a success.

When it comes to a successful Indian, he is one. I don't

think the Indian Bureau helped him at all. Maybe they helped

him in a loan or so at first, but he is really a success.

Representative Berry. There is nobody that can make a

success of anybody except the individual himself.

Mrs. Kelly. Certainly. The way it is they are trying

to teach the Indians all the time because the Indian Bureau

comes out here all the time and they say, "We have to teach

you there". They have a replacement program where they send

Indians to Chicago and every place. Those Indians come back.


They get lonesome.

Representative Berry. Have you read the bill?

Mrs. Kelly. I have read it over. I can't understand it,

you know how dumb I am.

Representative Berry. I am not so sure about this dumb-


Mrs. Kelly. I am. You hear all the bad things I say

right now, you see.

Representative Berry. It just happens if this program

goes through it will be handled by the Indians themselves. By

the tribal council,

Mrs. Kelly. We don't want the tribal council to handle it.

Give it to the individual Indians. The tribal council/told you

sits behind closed doors now.

Representative Berry. Who would you have to make these

loans, Josephine?

Mrs. Kelly. Make it direct to the Indians.

Representative Berry. You didn't want the Indian Bureau

to do it. Now you do not want the tribal council to do it.

Who would you have handle this money?

Mrs. Kelly. Give it to the Indians .--ect.

a Representative Berry. In a per capita payment?

Mrs. Kelly. You should meet with the Indians and ask

them. You have a lot of South Dakota Indians that are real


Representative Berry. Yes, I know.

Mrs. Kelly. They are so smart they have him here for

their representative and they want him to come back down there

and consult them before they put out a bill like this. That

is what they want.

Representative Berry. Is there anything else?

Mrs. Kelly. You listen to North Dakota Indians that

don't consult the reservation. But the Indians in South Dakota

ara against this bill, Congressman Berry. They are against

this present form. That is why they sent us here.

Did I give you that petit ion? You can file it. If we

had the money we could have gotten more names than that.

Mrs. Ankle and Mr. Redfish have a petition to bring

along, too, but they are not here. If they have a chance to be

heard --

Representative Berry. They shall be beard.

Mrs. Kelly. Tomorrow?

Representative Berry. Well, whenever they get in, before

they leave we will see that they are heard.

Mrs. Kelly. I dongt like to argue, but the main thing is

that the Indians are in such deplorable conditions. I went down

to Little Eagle one day when they called us to a meeting. I

went over there. There was a little bit of a room just the size

of a bed and maybe not enough to walk around the bed, five

children, didn't have a thing to eat and they had a big rain

storm that time and their house was just wet.

Those are the conditions that exist all over the reser-

vation; those are the things I have been saying for years, Mr.

Grorud knows that.

Times does not change. Each time Congress puts out

money galore for their Indian Bureau because they say they are

going to take care of the Indians, but it is always rules and

regulations they put out. It is getting terrible now.

I pleaded for an Indian man. Mr. Spencer said I can't

do a thing. I have to take the recommendations of the welfare


We went to the welfare worker. When we went to the wel--

fare worker he absolutely refused to give that man his money for

his children and that man got up and honest to goodness I thought

sure he was going to fight or hit that welfare worker.

That is the feeling they get into the Indians with their

rules and regulations. I felt bad when that man got so mad

that he almost hit the welfare worker, and the money for the

children in that office.

Finally we went back to Mr. Spencer. Mr. Spencer said,

"Well, I will have to" -- I can't exactly use the big

words -- he would have to take recommendations from the


Representative Berry. You have no proposition to cffer

at this time?

Mrs. Kelly. I would like to wait until Mr. Redfish

and Mrs. Anele are here. Mr. Loon is here. He can talk to you.

He is on the local staff of the fourteenth district.

9 We are against that present bill in its form.

Representative Berry. You have nothing, you say, to

offer? What do you want, just pay for your land and divide it

up per capita?

Mrs. Kelly. I am not going to make a decision right now

when there are several Indians back home that want to have

their say. This was done all in a hurry up time.

Representative Berry. That is all, Mrs. Kelly.

Mrs. Kelly. Thank you very much Congressman Berry, for

giving me this chance to say the few harsh words i said.

Mr. Grorud. You live at Fort Yates?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

Mr. Grorud. You have two or three homes there, have you


Mrs. Kelly. I haven't even got a home, myself.

Mr. Grorud. I have been in your home several times.

Mrs. Kelly. That is the home that burned up and went up

in smoke.

SMr.Grorud. Your home is as nice as the average white

people in Fort Yates.

Mrs. Kelly. Thank you for saying that.

Mr. Grorud. Probably better than some of them.


Mrs. Kelly. I tried to keep it clean, you know. That

is the way I raised my family. My family is all gone except


Mr. Grorud. Why is it that the Indians don't have the

water the same as the other citizens?

Mrs. Kelly. Just like I told you, Mr. Lippard always had

that stinking little feeling toward me and he left that with

the water company down on townsite. When I asked them to

connect me up with the water they put me off until I had this

, fire. When I had the fire, I didn't have the water.

Mr. Grorud. I remember it. I thought you had water.

Mrs. Kelly. I did when you were there. But when the

agency fire truck came down to my house that was not in any

condition, there was not even one extinguisher that was


Of course, I lost my three little grandchildren, my

three little granddaughters, which was the worst thing that

ever hagened to me. I didn't care about my personal belongings

because I am used to being hard up and I am used to being well

off, too. I can get along some way.

Representative Berry. I am sure, Mrs. Kelly, that the

9 committee appreciates your loss has been very great. If it

were caused by your not having been hooked up with water, cer-

tainly that was a very serious mistake.

Mrs. Kelly. I will say it was my carelessness, but just


the same I had presence of mind and so forth to try to put

that fire out. I smothered the flames with a blanket. As I

was taking it out of there, the Christmas tree out of the house,

I that is when it caught fire again. When we closed the door

we had one of those new fandangled locks, why the door closed

and locked right there.

Of course, that has a whole lot to do. I am glad it

was my home and not some other poor Indian.

Representative Berry, We must vacate the room here now

and we will try to finish and hear the other witnesses tomorrow


Mrs. Kelly. About what time?

B Representative Berry. Probably about two-thirty.

Mrs. Kelly. I think they will be here. They are sup-

posed to be here.

Representative Berry. We will recess at this time.

(Thereupon, at 5:25 o'clock p.m., the hearing

was recessed, to reconvene at 2:30 o'clock p.m.,

Friday, July 16, 1954).

I " I