Ryan McCabe Deposition Hazel Park Strip Search Lawsuit

2:16-cv-13263-RHC-DRG Doc # 17-4 Filed 05/24/17 Pg 1 of 68 Pg ID 189
Exhibit 3
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Transcript of the Testimony of

Ryan McCabe
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Date: April 28, 2017

Volume: i v r-j \ V
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Case: JAN CRAWFORD and MICHELLE JAEGER v. RYAN

McCABE and JOHN DOE OFFICERS 1-3, In Their Individual
Capacities
Printed On: May 8, 2017
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Ryan McCabe
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN
SOUTHERN DIVISION
JAN CRAWFORD and MICHELLE
JAEGER,
Plaintiffs,
vs. Case No. 16-13263
Hon. Robert H. Cleland
RYAN McCABE and JOHN DOE
OFFICERS 1-3, In Their
Individual Capacities,
Defendants.
The Deposition of OFFICER RYAN McCABE,

Taken at 33900 Schoolcraft,
Livonia, Michigan,
Commencing at 9:00 a.m.,
Friday, April 28, 2017,
Before Heather DeMar, RPR, CSR-8951.
Tri-County Court Reporters

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1 APPEARANCES
3 ROBERT M. GIROUX
4 Giroux Ratton PC
5 28588 Northwestern Highway, Suite 100
6 Southfield, Michigan 48034

7 248.531.8665
8 Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs
10
11 JAMES R. ACHO
12 Cummings, McClorey, Davis & Acho, P.L.C.
W 13 33900 Schoolcraft
14 Livonia, Michigan 48150

15 734.261.2400
16 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant McCabe.

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1 INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS
3 Witness Page
4 OFFICER RYAN McCABE
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. GIROUX
9 INDEX TO EXHIBITS
10
11 Exhibit Page
12 (Exhibits attached to transcript.)
13
14 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 1-2 12
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1 Livonia, Michigan
2 Friday, April 28, 2017
3 9:00 a.m.
5 OFFICER RYAN McCABE,
6 was thereupon called as a witness herein, and after '
7 having first been duly sworn to testify to the truth,
8 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was
9 examined and testified as follows:
10 MR. GIROUX: Please state your full name
11 for the record.
12 THE WITNESS: Ryan Michael McCabe.
W 13 MR. GIROUX: Officer McCabe, have you ever
14 given a deposition before?
15 THE WITNESS: I have not.
16 MR. GIROUX: Okay. Just a couple ground
17 rules to make sure we have an accurate record when
18 we're done with this process. Please answer all my
19 questions verbally, meaning, with words. The biggest
20 issue we have is uh-huhs and huh-uhs don't come out
21 very clearly on the record. So if you use yeses and
22 nos, it'll be preferred. Again, just so we know that

23 we're communicating on the record and the court
24 reporter takes us down accurately. Okay?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

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1 MR. GIROUX: Next, if you don't understand
2 a question that I'm asking you, stop, ask me to clear
3 up any confusion if there is or any ambiguity and I'll
4 do my best to do so. Okay?
6 MR. GIROUX: Otherwise, I'm going to assume
7 that we're communicating and you understood the
8 question. Seem fair?
10 MR. GIROUX: Lastly, you're going to know
11 my questions before I get all the words out sometimes,
12 I speak slowly and/or maybe pause from time to time.
13 Wait, however, until I'm done speaking before you
14 respond. Because if we talk over each other even a
15 little bit, it's hard for this nice lady to your right
16 to get everything down in order. Okay?
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. GIROUX:
20 Q. Instead of me going ad nauseam about your background,
21 since you've not been deposed before, could you kind
22 of describe for me your education and work history
23 after high school? In other words, tell me when you
24 graduated, from which high school, and then kind of
25 what you did after that relative to education and then

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1 work.
2 A. Yes, sir. I graduated high school in 2005.
3 Immediately after, I joined the United States
4 military, where I spent five years. Numerous
5 educational courses, but all military based stuff
6 through there.
7 After the military, I received my
8 Associate's Degree at Oakland Community College, with
9 an Associate's in criminal justice. And then I
10 attended the Oakland police academy. I've been

11 working as a police officer in Hazel Park for three
12 years.
W 13 Q. Okay. How many years?
14 A. Three.
15 Q. What branch of the military?

16 A. Army.
17 Q. And what was that experience like? Were you stationed

18 somewhere? Were you deployed?
19 A.
Yes. I was stationed in Germany for approximately
20
three years, fifteen months of which were spent
21
overseas in Iraq. After that, I spent two years
22
stationed in Fort Riley, Kansas, with a nine-month
23
deployment back to Iraq in that time frame.
24 Q. What was your rank when you were discharged?
25 A. Sergeant.
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1 Q. When did you obtain your Associate's Degree?
2 A. I believe I completed it at the end of the academy,
3 which I believe was December 2013 I graduated.
4 Q. Okay. And then you completed the academy around the
5 same time?
6 A. Yes. The completion of the academy completed my
7 degree.
8 Q. Okay. And I assume you sent resumes and job
9 applications around to various cities and you ended up
10 with Madison Heights?
11 A. Hazel Park.
12 Q. Hazel Park, I'm sorry.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And you've been with Hazel Park since did you say
15 2014 or 2013?
16 A. I believe June 2014.
17 Q. All right. And then after joining Hazel Park police
18 force, are you just a police officer? Is that a
19 community where where do you some EMT, you do some
20 firefighting, you do some police work? Or is it all
21 just police work for you?
22 A. Just police work.
23 Q. Do you have any certifications?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. What, please?
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1 A I'm instructor certified in Gracie survival tactics,
2 which is our some of our defensive tactics, as well
3 as PPCT instructor certified. Basically that's

4 basically it for specialized certifications. I'm a
5 certified instructor for the police academy in
6 defensive tactics through MCOLES.
7 Q When did you become certified to instruct at the
8 police academy?
9 A I've been there for just, I want to say, about a year.
10 Q So maybe 2016 to
11 A Yeah, 2016 to current.
12 Q And I assume Hazel Park has a field training program?
W 13 A They do.
14 Q And you went through that initially?
15 A I did.
16 Q For how long approximately?
17 A I believe it's four months.
18 Q And when did you become certified as an instructor in
19 survival tactics, PPCT, and defensive tactics?
20 A Within the last year.
21 Q What is the difference between PP I know what
22 pressure point control tactics are. I wonder what in
23 addition to that you know about in terms of survival
24 tactics? I'm not familiar with that.
25 A Gracie survival tactics, it's a type of Gracie

V

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1 Jiu-Jitsu. It's for ground fighting techniques.
2 Q. Can you spell that?
3 A. Gracie?
4 Q. Yes, sir.
5 A. G-R-A-C-I-E.
6 Q. Is it all caps?
7 MR. ACHO: No. It's the Gracie family.
8 MR. GIROUX: Okay.
9 BY MR. GIROUX:
10 Q- Did you have those certifications as of the time of
11 the subject incident?
12 A. I did not, no.
W 13 Q. Have you ever been suspended?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many times?
16 A. Once.
17 Q. For what?
18 A. I damaged a piece of equipment.
19 Q. What kind of equipment?
20 A. It was a laser, the LIDAR.
21 Q. How did you damage it?
22 A. I left it on the top of the patrol vehicle as I was
23 prepping my vehicle and drove through the parking lot

24 with it and it fell off.
25 Q. I did that with my cell phone just a little while ago.

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1 MR. GIROUX: Off the record.
2 (Off the record 9:07 a.m.)
3 (Back on the record at 9:08 a.m.)
4 MR. GIROUX: Back on the record.
5 BY MR. GIROUX:
6 Q. Any other suspensions?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Any citizen complaints that you know of?
9 A. One.
10 Q. For what?
11 A. It was a citizen had made a complaint, he said that I
12 used the term "you people" on a traffic stop.
w 13 Q. What was his ethnicity or race?
14 A. He was a black male.
15 Q. Any other citizen complaints?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Married or single?
18 A. Single.
19 Q. Divorced?
20 A. No.
21 Q. One child?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Are you still with or have a relationship with the

24 child's mother?
25 A. I do not.

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1 Q. What is her name?
2 A. Shawna, S-H-A-W-N-A, last of Lynn, L-Y-N-N.
3 Q. Does she live in the area?
4 A. She lives in Macomb.
5 Q. Good relationship?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Ever been involved in a lawsuit before?
8 A. I have not.
9 Q. Did you review anything before the deposition started
10 today to get ready for the deposition?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. What did you review?
W 13 A. I reviewed my original case report, as well as my

14 testimony on Mr. Mattice's preliminary exam.
15 Q. Can I have those things or see those things that you
16 reviewed?
17 A. This is all I have, just the narrative here on my

18 actual report.
19 MR. GIROUX: Can we mark this, Counsel? Do
20 you mind?
21 MR. ACHO: I'll make a copy for you.
22 MR. GIROUX: Do you have the testimony

23 transcript?
24 MR. ACHO: I think I do. I'm not the one
25 that provided it to Ryan, but I think I have it in my

W

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1 file. If you want me to go look and just make a
2 copy
3 MR. GIROUX: If you reviewed it, I think
4 I'm entitled to it.
5 MR. ACHO: You would be entitled to it if
6 he brought
7 MR. GIROUX: I understand.
8 MR. ACHO: If I have it.
9 MR. GIROUX: If he reviewed it to get ready
10 for the dep, I think I get to see it.
13 MR. GIROUX: Back on the record.
14 MARKED BY THE REPORTER:
15 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 1-2
16 9:14 a.m.
17 BY MR. GIROUX:
18 Q. Officer, you were good enough to give me a copy of

19 your report and that has been marked as Deposition
20 Exhibit Number 1, is that correct?
22 Q. And you reviewed that before the deposition began

23 today?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Is everything in it as dictated or written by you true

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1 and accurate?
3 Q. Okay. You also were good your counsel was good
4 enough to hand me what's been marked as Exhibit 2,
5 which is your testimony in the matter concerning
6 People of the State of Michigan versus Christopher
7 Alan Mattice, is that correct?
9 Q. And you-reviewed that deposition testimony at some

10 point before your deposition to get ready for your
11 deposition today?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And is everything in that testimony true and accurate?

14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Did you review anything else today or in the
16 last few days to get ready for the deposition?

17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you talk to your fellow officers, to the two that
19 were here, I want to say Scott Silver?
20 A. Officer Silver and Officer Morris.
21 Q. Did you talk to your fellow officers before the
22 deposition to get ready for the deposition, without an

23 attorney being present?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are there any other reports or notes or records that

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1 you made other than what's been marked as Exhibit 1
2 relative to your interaction with either of my

3 clients, and I'm speaking of Ms. Crawford and
4 Ms. Jaeger?
5 A No.
6 Q Are there any videotapes or photographs that in any

7 way depict or show or relate to your interaction with
8 either of my clients, Ms. Crawford or Ms. Jaeger?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you looked for such things?
11 A No.
12 Q Was there any on-car video in use for your vehicle,

13 your patrol vehicle, that night?
14 A No.
15 Q What was your patrol vehicle?
16 A I don't recall.
17 Q Is it in your report?
18 A I don't believe so.
19 Q What is there what record is there that would tell
20 us what vehicle you were in?
21 A There should be a daily car sheet dated for that date
22 that would have my vehicle number on it.
23 Q Okay. And who would have that? Is there a sergeant

24 or a shift commander?
25 A The records.

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1 Q. Just records?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I would ask for daily car sheet for that particular
4 day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are there any other records that you make? Like do
7 you have a log that you keep as you go through the
8 shift to show what runs you're on?
9 A. No.
10 Q. There's no daily log?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is there anything created or existing with dispatch or
13 any other subdepartment that would establish or show
14 your comings and goings that particular shift?
15 A. I don't know if I mean, all our runs are
16 Q. Documented?
17 A. Documented on CLEMIS or CAD through the dispatch, but
18 I could not tell you how to get ahold of any of that
19 information.
20 Q. Okay. Are there any other records besides the one
21 that you just described, although you can't name it
22 exactly? Are there any other records that would
23 indicate your comings and goings for that particular

24 shift?
25 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

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1 Q. Did you have a cell phone with you at that time of the
2 subject incident?
3 A. I had my cell phone, yes, at the time. As to where it
4 was, whether it's in the car or on my person, I could
5 not tell you.
6 Q. Do you use your cell phone for police work ever?
7 A. No. Other than contacting the office if I need to.
8 If I if I need to call a sergeant or something,
9 then I would use it.
10 Q. So you use it in police work sometimes?
11 A. Sure. Yes.
12 Q. Is it issued by the department or is it personally
13 purchased and paid for by you?
14 A. Personally.
15 Q. Do you still have the same phone that you had then?
16 A. I do not.
17 Q. Do you have a different phone number?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have the same phone number?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Different phone?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Same service?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. What service?

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1 A. AT&T.
2 MR. GIROUX: Can he give me his cell phone
3 number off the record?
4 MR. ACHO: Sure.
7 MR. GIROUX: Back on the record. The
8 officer and his attorney were good enough to allow me

9 to know his cell phone number, which we took and I
10 documented off of the record.
11 Counsel has my promise that I will not do
12 anything relative to that cell phone number and/or the
W 13 information about his service provider without talking

14 to counsel first verbally or in writing about any
15 requests I have to get any kind of record from this
16 phone, whether it be text, phone calls, photographs,

17 or other.
18 MR. ACHO: Thank you.
19 BY MR. GIROUX:
20 Q. When you pulled the vehicle over, the subject vehicle

21 on the subject stop, were you on ultimately stopped
22 on the side of 1-75?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so, did you turn on your lights as you and the
25 vehicle in front of you were going down the entrance

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1 ramp?
2 A It was either -- no. It was not. It was after we
3 were fully on 1-75 in northbound traffic.
4 Q Do you know how far down 1-75 you travelled before you
5 turned on your lights approximately?
6 A It was quite a short distance, maybe approximately
7 less than a quarter mile.
8 Q More than -- was it a football field? Hundred yards?
9 A I couldn't tell you exactly. I just know that it was
10 between the onramp and the John R bridge. Because
11 they came to a rest at the stop just south of the John
12 R bridge on northbound 75. It was a pretty short
W 13 distance.
14 Q Okay. And did the driver pull the vehicle over to the
15 side of the road relatively shortly after you turned
16 on your lights and sirens?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Nothing suspicious about the way she pulled over to
19 the side of the road and stopped?
20 A No.
21 Q Why did you stop the vehicle initially?
22 A They made a left-hand lane change across the solid
23 white lane marker.
24 Q Any other reason?
25 A Nope.

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1 Q. At all?
2 A. No.
3 Q. That was the only reason at all?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it your intention to ticket the driver?
6 A. The intention was to speak to the driver and advise
7 her of the stop and make that determination.
8 Q. Make that determination what?
9 A. To make that determination during our interaction, I

10 guess.
11 Q. Did you ever ticket the driver?
w 13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Because I was too busy dealing with Mr. Mattice and I
15 was on time constraints to hurry up the whole
16 situation.
17 Q. Why were you on time constraints?
18 A. It was a busy summer night. We only had four officers
19 working. Officer Silver had been sent down by my

20 sergeant to expedite the arrest that was taking place
21 because we had calls backing up, I believe.
22 Q. What four cars were working? And I know you can't

23 identify the numbers, but probably the officers
24 driving them?
25 A. It was myself, Officer Silver, Officer Morris, and

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1 Officer Grigsby.
2 Q. Can you spell Grigsby?
3 A. G-R-I-G-S-B-Y.
4 Q. Did you ever look to see how long this particular
5 traffic stop was in total?
6 A. I have not. I know I did testify at Mr. Mattice's
7 that it was between thirty and forty-five minutes
8 approximately. That's a rough estimate.
9 Q. Did you ever check with dispatch to find out if that
10 was true?
12 Q. Dispatch would have that information, though, is that
W 13 true?
14 A. They would have a rough idea, depending on how long it
15 takes them. They usually don't board the stop
16 immediately. I would guess they probably boarded the
17 call or the stop after I had advised them that I was
18 Mr. Mattice was under arrest. So there would be
19 an obviously a time gap there.
20 Q. From the time strike that.
21 When did you first see the subject vehicle?
22 A. As they crossed my bow travelling westbound.
23 Q. Where were you when you saw them?
24 A. I believe I was in a turnaround just west of Dequindre

25 on Eight Mile. They were travelling westbound Eight
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1 Mile.
2 Q. Which turnaround? Do you think it's the first
3 turnaround?
4 A. I believe I'm not sure. There's two there between
5 1-75 and Dequindre. I'm not sure which one I was.
6 Q. You were in one of them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Doing what?
9 A. Turning around.
10 Q. Where were you going?
11 A. I was just patrolling. I usually drive up and down
12 Eight Mile.
13 Q. Were you alone in your vehicle?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How far away was the vehicle, the subject vehicle,
16 when you first saw it from you? Approximately, I
17 don't need an exact.
18 A. I was facing northbound in the turnaround and they
19 passed in front of me the first time I saw the
20 vehicle. So I mean, depending on which lane, I don't
21 recall.
22 Q. So car lengths?
23 A. Maybe one to two car lengths. Depends on what if

24 they were in a center lane or the outside curb lane.
25 I'm not sure.
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1 Q Okay. You didn't have any concerns about the speed of
2 the vehicle?
3 A No.
4 Q You didn't have any concerns about anything you saw
5 relative to the driver or the other passengers as they
6 passed in front of you?
7 A No. I couldn't see the occupants of the vehicle as
8 they passed me.
9 Q How much further did they drive when you saw what you
10 believed to be the vehicle go over that solid white
11 line?
12 A We made the right-hand turn onto north Chrysler, which

v.1uir/ 13 is the service drive off Eight Mile, immediately onto
14 the onramp. Once they got on 75, that's all solid
15 white line because it's the Nine Mile curve there at
16 75. And they immediately made a left-hand, you know,
17 they changed lanes into the left-hand lane. Which is
18 why I stopped the vehicle.
19 Q Did you follow the vehicle for some period of time
20 before it went over that white line?
21 A It was approximately half a mile maybe.
22 Q So you followed it for a half a mile, so you left the
23 turnaround after the car passed you?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q And you started to follow that vehicle?

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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Is that a yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You followed it for about a half a mile?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Until it went over that white line to get onto the
7 entrance ramp for 1-75?
8 A. No. They were already on the entrance ramp goes
9 onto 75. Once they got onto 75, instead of staying in
10 the right-hand lane which is what the lane markers
11 says that you have to do they changed lanes one
12 lane over left, across the solid white line. So
13 they're on 75 at that time.
14 Q. So you were following the vehicle down the entrance
15 ramp onto 1-75?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. For how long were you going to follow the vehicle on
18 1-75? What was your intention?
19 A. I was attempting to run the license plate on the

20 vehicle.
21 Q. Why?
22 A. It's what I do. I drive up and down Eight Mile and I

23 run license plates, looking for stolen cars,
24 suspendeds, things of that nature.
25 Q. Had you called it in at any time during that half-mile

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1 drive?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So if you were going to call in the license plate, how
4 long would that take you to do as if you hadn't
5 done it yet as of the time that you turned on your

6 light and sirens on 1-75? How long would it have
7 taken you?
8 A. We don't call license plates in on the radio. It's
9 done on the computer. It depends on traffic. It
10 depends on how they're driving. Because I have to use

11 the MDC, the computer, to run the plate. I have to
12 see the plate, get the right numbers, which is a task
W 13 in and of itself sometimes at night.
14 Then I have to plug it into the computer

15 while driving safe and read the return. It all
16 depends on the situation, the lighting, how long it

17 takes me to run the plate, how long it takes the
18 return to come back on the computer from SOS.
19 Q. Had you done any of that prior to seeing the vehicle
20 cross that white line to get onto the travelling lane

21 of 1-75?
22 A. I don't recall if I had had that plate input yet or

23 not.
24 Q. Assuming you had not, at a minimum, how long does that

25 process take? Is it five minutes? Is it one minute?
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1 Is it ten minutes?
2 A. Could be a minute, it could take longer. Usually not
3 more than I mean, five minutes would be excessive
4 usually for to run the plate.
5 Q. So you think a minute to two or three?
6 A. Possibly.
7 Q. Does that seem fair and reasonable?
8 A. Sure.
9 Q. Do you know how far you can travel down 1-75 in two to
10 three minutes?
11 A. Couple miles maybe, depending on the speeds.
12 Q. Was that something you were willing to do as you were
W 13 following this vehicle just so you could run the
14 plate?
15 A. I usually would have broke off by 696, which would be
16 a couple miles up. But by then I would have had that
17 plate ran and at least have the return.
18 Q. So that was something you were willing to do for this
19 particular vehicle?
20 A. Sure. It was the only vehicle on the roadway at that

21 time.
22 Q. On 1-75 was there traffic?
23 A. I don't recall specifically. I do recall Eight Mile

24 there was not any traffic. Which was one of the
25 reasons that drew my attention.

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1 Q. And I'm sure you can't remember specific cars, makes,
2 models, colors, that type of thing. But you would
3 agree there was some amount of traffic on 1-75 in the
4 travel lanes while you were stopped on the shoulder of
5 the road after you pulled them over?
6 A. Yes, while stopped absolutely.
7 Q. Okay. Just generally talking about strip searches. A
8 strip search, would you define what you believe to be
9 a strip search?
10 A. A strip search would be, I would believe, anything

11 that would expose any sort of genitalia.
12 Q. Okay. If you ask a person to move their clothes
W 13 around, to lift their clothes, to shake their clothes,
14 to loosen their clothes, you would agree that that is
15 a form of strip search?
16 A. No, I would not.
17 Q. You think a strip search requires only baring some
18 part of the person's body?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. You think that is required at a minimum?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. If it's true that some part of my clients'

23 breasts were exposed by your search efforts on the
24 night of the subject incident, that would be a strip
25 search?
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1 A Not necessarily, no.
2 Q Well, I thought you said if part of their breasts were
3 exposed that would be a strip search?
4 A If I had directed that to occur, then yes.
5 Q So if you directed them in a manner that caused them
6 to expose any part of their breasts, it's a strip
7 search according to law. Do you agree with that?
8 A I would not. Because
9 Q I understand you're stating that you did not. I'm
10 asking you a hypothetical. We don't have to
11 necessarily use you, we can use any officer.

12 If any officer had directed my clients to
W 13 do something in terms of moving their clothing that

14 caused them to expose any part of their breasts, that
15 would be a strip search?
16 A If I or hypothetically speaking, if you direct

17 somebody not to expose something and they expose
18 something, that would not be a strip search that I had
19 conducted.
20 Q I understand. But if you asked them to move an
21 article of clothing in any way, shape, or form that

22 has the necessary effect of exposing their breasts or
23 a part of their breast, that would be a strip search?
24 A I don't agree with that, no.
25 Q Why not?
W

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l Because I don't even know how to explain this. I
2 would believe there has to be some intent behind a
3 strip search. A strip search would be, in my opinion,
4 me intending to expose certain items, certain portions
5 of a person's body in order to search that area. If I
6 deal with somebody that's highly intoxicated,
7 hypothetically, and they expose something on their
8 own which they're instructed not to do I would
9 not consider that a strip search on my part.

10 I understand. Again, let's get away from the
11 unintentional drunken actions of some suspect or

12 perpetrator or person being stopped.
13 Let's just talk about an officer directing

14 a person to move, change, loosen up, or take off to
15 any degree clothing such that it causes breasts to be
16 exposed. That's a strip search?
17 I would believe that there it would have to be
18 intentional for it to be considered a strip search on

19 the officer's part.
20 Okay. And that's why you're saying unless the officer
21 intended to have the person expose themselves, it's
22 not a strip search?
23 A, That's my yes, that's my belief.
24 Q. Okay. In terms of any woman being on the side of a

25 freeway, if she is required to expose her breasts to

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1 the vehicles travelling down the roadway, the freeway,
2 you would agree that that would be potentially
3 humiliating for the woman?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You would agree that that would subject the woman to
6 personal indignity?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Under what circumstances would it be permissible for
9 an officer such as yourself dealing with clients such
10 as mine to require them to bare their breasts on a
11 side of a road like 1-75? For any reason?
12 A. There isn't one.
13 Q. We can agree that if you or any officer working for

14 your department required either or both of my clients
15 to lift their shirts and their bras such that it
16 exposed their breasts to the officer and/or people
17 travelling on the highway, that would be a violation
18 of their civil rights?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Even if it didn't expose them to the vehicular traffic

21 on 1-75, but just to you or another male officer, that
22 would be a violation of their civil rights?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Under any circumstances?
25 A. I believe so.

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Q. Relative to the subject stop that you made, how would
you describe it? What type of stop were you making?
A. At the time it initiated as a traffic stop.
Q. Okay. Did it ever escalate to anything else beyond

that?
A. It did.
Q. What type of stop?
A. It became more of a narcotics investigation.
9 Q. At no time were my clients under arrest, agreed?
10 A. Agreed.
11 Q. At no time were you ever in fear of either of my

12 clients?
v^/ 13 MR. ACHO: Is that a question or a

14 statement?
15 MR. GIROUX: Question.
16 BY MR. GIROUX:
17 Q. Is that correct?
18 A. There's always a level of uncertainty and fear at the

19 beginning of a traffic stop, so I don't know if that
20 would be necessarily true to say. It was dispelled
21 upon speaking with them, I would say.
22 Q. So after your initial conversation with both of my
23 clients, you did not fear harm from either one of
24 them?
25 A. No.

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1 Q. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. At no time did you ever fear or believe that either
4 one of them possessed a weapon, is that true? After
5 the initial conversation with them?
6 A. I would say that that would be true.
7 Q. Okay. Did -- do you know Ms. Crawford?
8 A. Personally?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Had you ever met her before the subject traffic stop?
12 A. No.
W 13 Q. Have you talked to her since the subject traffic stop?

14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know Ms. Jaeger?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you -- did you ever talk to her or meet her

18 before the subject traffic stop?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you met her or talked to her since the subject

21 traffic stop?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Could you describe what either of them look like right

24 now? Not what they look like right now, but right now
25 could you describe what they looked like then?
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1 A. Vaguely.
2 Q. Okay. Do the best you can, please.
3 A. Ms. Crawford, white female, medium build, normal
4 height, maybe five six. That is about it with
5 describing her. I could point her out to you if I saw
6 her. I mean, I know what who they are and what
7 they look like.
8 Ms. Jaeger is I believe she has dark
9 hair, white female. Not necessarily I mean, normal
10 height, she's a little bit heavier set, I believe.

11 That's basically all I could tell you.
12 Q. Who was the driver?
13 A. Ms. Jaeger.
14 Q. After your initial discussion with Ms. Jaeger, it's

15 true that you did not believe she was under the
16 influence of alcohol?
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. After your initial conversation with Ms. Jaeger, you

19 never felt or believed she was under the influence of
20 narcotics?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. After your initial conversation with Ms. Jaeger, you

23 did not suspect her of possessing narcotics?
24 A. That is not correct.
25 Q. What did she say or do that caused you to believe that

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1 she may be in possession of narcotics?
2 It was mainly the interaction with Mr. Mattice that
3 began the thought process that there may be narcotics

4 within that vehicle.
5 Q But on my client's person, on Ms. Jaeger's person,
6 what did she ever do to cause you to believe that she
7 did or may have had narcotics on her person?
8 A. She was within a vehicle where narcotics were located.
9 Q. Other than that?
10 A, Close proximity to that individual.
11 Q. I understand. Other than that?
12 A, That would be it.
W 13 Q Okay. And the individual you're talking about is
14 Mr. Mattice?
15 A, That is correct.
16 Q And you found a small amount of what you believed to

17 be a narcotic substance on his person?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where?
20 A, In his sock on his person.
21 Q. In his sock in the shoe part or in the sock above the

22 shoe part?
23 A. It was on the inside of where the ankle bone would be.

24
So it was above -- it was above the what would be
25 the top of the shoe where it touches the ankle.
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1 Q Okay. And where was he seated in the vehicle?
2 A He was the front seat passenger.
3 Q After you came to a stop and you saw the vehicle in
4 front of you stopped, you didn't see any interaction
5 between Mr. Mattice and Ms. Jaeger in terms of
6 touching or moving hands or reaching or sharing
7 anything?
8 A No.
9 Q Is that true?
10 A That's true.
11 Q And you're trained to watch for what the people inside
12 the car are doing after you pull them over?

V 13 A Yes. But on this particular vehicle, the rear window
14 was extremely tinted and dark and you could not see
15 through it whatsoever.
16 Q Okay. Regardless of the reason, you saw no physical

17 interaction between Mr. Mattice and Ms. Jaeger after
18 you pulled them over?
19 A I did not.
20 Q Same is true for Mr. Mattice and Ms. Crawford?
22 Q Okay. So other than the fact that you found strike

23 that.
24 What did you find on Mr. Mattice?
25 A Cocaine, powder cocaine.

w

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1 Q. How much?
2 A. I don't recall the exact weight.
3 Q. Can you describe it in size?
4 A. Yeah. It was roughly if you take a corner of a
5 Ziploc baggie, maybe, I want to say, a quarter, size
6 of a quarter maybe, the corner tied up, maybe a little
7 smaller than that.
8 Q. Smaller than a quarter?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Larger than a dime, smaller than a quarter, seem
11 accurate?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was it ever ultimately measured in his case?
14 A. Yeah. It should have been weighed, that's correct.
15 It would be in my report.
16 Q. It's in here?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Without looking at your report, can you say whether or

19 not that would be an amount that would be considered
20 on someone's person or custody for personal use?

21 A. It's enough cocaine for multiple lines, I would think.
22 So it could be personal use or it could be shared.
23 Q. I understand there's a level at to which narcotics
24 get where you start to think this is trafficking, this
25 is

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W
1 A Right. It was not at a level where I would believe it
2 is intent to deliver, no.
3 Q So it would still be within the realm of personal use,
4 you just wouldn't be able to say whose personal use
5 necessarily?
6 A Sure.
7 Q Seem accurate?
8 A Yes.
9 Q So other than being with Mr. Mattice, what facts or
10 circumstances did you have to believe Ms. Jaeger was

11 ever in possession of drugs or contraband on her own
12 person?
W 13 A Just the fact that they were coming from a high

14 narcotics area.
15 Q When did you have that thought or belief?

16 A When Mr. Mattice advised me that they were coming from
17
his brother's house at State Fair and Greeley. It's a
18 known narcotics area. We see a lot of heroin and
19
crack cocaine, as well as powder cocaine come through
20 there and into Hazel Park.
21
He was unable to give me any further
22
information on his brother's address, description of
23
the house, side of the street it was on, exactly where
24
it was at State Fair and Greeley. Which led me to not
25
take his his story of where they were coming from

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Page 37
as credible.
Which again, giving me that area that they
gave me of State Fair and Greeley, with it being a
high narcotics area from my personal experience and
training with my three years in Hazel Park, it, you
know, it caused gave me reason to believe that they
may be coming from a -- from, again, from possibly a
drug house or a narcotics street where they may have
9 picked up some sort of contraband.
10 Q Okay. Other than the fact that Mr. Mattice was in the
11 car and you found the small amount of narcotics on
12 him, and the fact that he said they were coming from a
V-^j-/ 13 certain area, what other facts or circumstances did
14 you have to believe that Ms. Jaeger had any drugs or
15 contraband on her person?
16 A That would be it.
17 Q Same for Ms. Crawford?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So those are the only facts that you had that caused
20 you to believe that one or both may have had
21 contraband or drugs on their person?
22 A Yes.
23 Q While you were interacting with Mr. Mattice, did you

24 ever ask him if the women had any drugs on them after
25 you discovered drugs in his sock?

W

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1 A Specifically I don't recall.
2 Q Okay. Did you ever ask the women before there was any
3 searching or physical interaction with them --
4 meaning, getting them out of the car and further
5 talking to them -- did you ever ask them if they had
6 any drugs, contraband on their person?
7 A After they were asked -- or they were requested to
exit the vehicle.
9 Q So after you interacted with Mr. Mattice, did you put
10 him under arrest before you had any further dealings
11 with the two women?
12 A I did, yes.
W
13 Q So was he handcuffed and placed in the back of your
14 police vehicle?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And then did you turn your attention to the two women?
17 A I did.
18 Q Did you order them both out of the car?
19 A I asked both of them to exit one at a time.
20 Q Okay. You reasonably understand that to be an order?
21 When a police officer tells someone to get out of a
22 police vehicle, if you -- even if you say please, it's
23 an order?
24 A If I asked them if they would step out of the vehicle

25 and talk to them?

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1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. If you want to say it's an order.
3 Q. You're wearing a badge you were wearing a badge and

4 a uniform that night, weren't you?
5 A. Yes, sure.
6 Q. When you ask somebody even nicely to get out of the
7 vehicle, you would understand that to be a request by
8 a person with police authority?
9 A. Sure. Simply a request, though.
10 Q. I understand. No matter what sugarcoating we put on

11 it, no matter how nice you are and/or polite, it's
12 still a directive coming from someone with authority?
W 13 MR. ACHO: I would object, argumentative.
14 He's indicated it's not a directive, that it's a
15 request.
16 BY MR. GIROUX:
17 Q. You would agree that it's a police directive? It's a
18 directive from a police officer?
19 A. No. I did not tell them they had to get out of the
20 car. I asked them one at a time if they would come
21 back out of the car and speak with me. Which in
22 itself is regardless, because a police officer can ask
23 any occupant of a vehicle to exit and that's lawful.
24 Q. I understand. Is it your testimony that you were

25 giving them the option of saying no, I'm going to stay

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1 in my car and I'm going to leave?
2 A. That was the request, yes.
3 Q. Were they free to leave at that point in time?
4 A. I would say no.
5 Q. I would say no, too.
6 A. I mean --
7 Q. So neither of these ladies were free to leave at that
point in time, you just arrested someone from their
9 car, you put them in the back of your car. It was
10 your intention to continue an investigation? Yes?
11 A Sure.
12 Q Okay. Neither one of these ladies were free to leave
W 13 at that point in time, fair?
14 A Fair.
15 Q Were any other officers on scene?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Who was the first one to arrive?
18 A Officer Morris.
19 Q When in the process did Officer Morris arrive?
20 A As I was conducting the search of Mr. Mattice.
21 Q Why did Officer Morris arrive?
22 A We always have a backup car usually slide by our

23 stops, especially if we're down on 1-75, the extra
24 lights help with safety, as well as having a second

25 officer on hand.
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1 Q Did you call?
2 A I don't recall if I I do I believe, actually, I
3 did ask for a second car, now that I think about it.
4 Q So that would be in the dispatch records?
5 A I believe so.
6 Q So as you're pulling this car over, the car being
7 driven by Ms. Jaeger, you asked for backup?
8 A I believe so.
9 Q Sometime while you got Mr. Mattice out of the car
10 and I assume he's in front of your car, but behind
11 Ms. Jaeger's vehicle?
12 A I'm sorry, could you say give me that question
W 13 again?
14 Q You had Mr. Mattice in between the front of your car
15 and the back of Ms. Jaeger's car?
16 A As I searched him?
17 Q Yeah. As you talked to him and searched him?
18 A Yes.
19 Q While that's going on, Officer Morris pulls up behind

20 you?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Lights?
23 A Yes.
24 Q At some other point did another officer arrive?
25 A Yes.

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1 Q. Who?
2 A. Officer Silver.
3 Q. Are we talking three separate cars now?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does Officer Silver park behind Officer Morris?
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7 Q. What does Officer Morris do after he arrives?
8 A. Officer Morris basically, I believe, stood by as I
9 searched Mr. Mattice and then he kept an eye on the
10 women in the vehicle while I secured Mr. Mattice in my
11 patrol car.
12 Q. Okay. Did Officer Silver arrive before you put
\^/ 13 Mr. Mattice in the backseat?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When did he arrive?
16 A. Officer Silver arrived after I had both female
17 occupants outside of the vehicle and after, I believe,
18 the consent searches were completed.
19 Q. After did you say?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did either officer photograph either of my clients?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ask them?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did either of the officers who arrived after your

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1 initial stop videotape either of my clients?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ask them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was there any investigation at all in your department
6 relative to this particular stop?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. By whom?
9 A. I believe Chief Barner.
10 Q. Anybody else?
11 A. I do not know.
12 Q. What was involved in the investigation?
W
13 A. The only thing that I am aware of was a meeting with
14 myself and Chief Barner to ascertain what had happened
15 on the stop.
16 Q. Was anybody present for that meeting besides the chief
17 and you?
18 A. Yes, our union rep, Detective Boucher.
19 Q. Can you spell Barner for the court reporter?
20 A. B-A-R-N-E-R.
21 Q. And can you spell the union rep's last name?
22 A. B-O-U-C-H-E-R.
23 Q. Was anybody else present?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did anything come out of the investigation?

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1 A Not that I'm aware of, no.
2 Q By that, I mean any training, any documentation,
3 anything he wanted you to read up, anything he wanted
4 you to review, anything that he gave you in terms of
5 advice or suggestion relative to stops or searches?
6 A Just prior to the initial date of our initial
7 deposition that was supposed to happen, the only thing
8 I was given to review was a just policy on our
9 general searches of prisoners that are in the jail.
10 Which is the only policy that has any any wording

11 on any types of searches of females.
12 Q Other than that policy that relates to arrested
W 13 persons within the jail, your department does not have
14 a policy relative to searches of females?
15 A No.
16 Q Is that correct?
17 A As to my knowledge, yes, that is correct.
18 Q What does the policy say relative to jail searches of

19 female persons in custody?
20 A They are to be conducted by females.
21 Q Anything else that you can recall?
22 A No. The rest talks about policy of jail checks and

23 things of that nature, meals for prisoners.
24 Q At some point in time you decided you wanted to search
25 both of my clients, is that correct?
W

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1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you ever ask for a female officer to do it?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q Was there a female officer available?
5 A No.
6 Q Is there a female officer on the police force there in
7 Hazel Park?
8 A We have a sergeant that works day shift that is a
9 female. And we have a detective that works during the
10 day that is a female, neither of which were working
11 that night.
12 Q The sergeant's name is?
W 13 A Strautz.
14 Q S-T-R-A-U-S-S?
15 A I believe it's S-T-R-A-U-T-Z.
16 Q And the detective?
17 A Gielnik.
18 Q Spell that.
19 A G-I-E-L-N-I-K.
20 Q Did you consider taking the -- strike that.
21 Did you consider asking my clients to go to
22 the station so that you could do any sort of search?
23 A No.
24 Q While you were interacting with Mr. Mattice, you

25 started to believe that he was a person who was under
W

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1 the influence of some drugs? Yes?
2 A Under the influence?
3 Q Yes.
4 A No.
5 Q You did not think he was under the influence of any
6 drugs?
7 A I did not.
8 Q Okay. I think we already established you did not
9 think either of my clients were under the influence of
10 any drugs, is that correct?
11 A No. Just alcohol for the passenger, Ms. Crawford.
12 Q Other than that, you did not believe that either were
W 13 under the influence of any drugs?
14 A No.
16 A Correct.
17 Q As you questioned Ms. Jaeger and Ms. Crawford, what
18 did you question them about?
19 A At what point?
20 Q At any point before any sort of search occurred?
21 A Upon the initial stop, I had attempted to speak with

22 Ms. Jaeger about the traffic violation in itself.
23 Which was difficult to complete because Mr. Mattice

24 continued to either interrupt her answer or answer for
25 her and/or interject his own comments and conversation
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1 into the interaction.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Other than that, both were asked upon exiting the
4 vehicle if they had any weapons or contraband or
5 narcotics on their person -- or in the vehicle, I'm
6 sorry.
7 Q. Anything else?
8 A. I don't believe so.
9 Q. Okay. When you initially interacted with Ms. Jaeger
10 and then subsequently after you asked her to get out
11 of the car and further talk with you, at all times
12 when she was speaking, she was clear and coherent and
W 13 relatively articulate?
14 A. Ms. Jaeger?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. She had reasonable explanations and statements
18 relative to the answers to your questions?
19 A. She yes. She gave the same story that Mr. Jaeger
20 (sic) was giving at that point, having heard it
21 multiple times in the vehicle as to where they were
22 coming from.
23 Q. No -- well, you don't mean Mr. Jaeger?
24 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Mattice.
25 Q. That's okay. And what I'm getting at is when you were

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1 talking to Mr. Mattice, you said it started to sound
2 sketchy because he couldn't give you an address or a
3 place or a house. Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What I'm getting at is when you were talking to
6 Ms. Jaeger, she didn't have that same sketchiness to
7 her responses?
8 A. She didn't have any of the answers either. But I
9 don't recall specifically diving deep into that story
10 with her.
11 Q. That was my understanding. That most of the
12 background discussion of where they were and what they

v^/ 13 were doing came from Mr. Mattice?
14 A. That's correct, yes.
15 Q. So just relative to Ms. Jaeger and the things that you

16 discussed with her, again, you didn't get the sense of
17 the same sketchiness -- if you want to use that
18 term -- or suspicion about refusal or memory
19 problems refusal to tell you or memory problems or
20 just not willing to give you information? You didn't
21 have this
22 A. With Ms. Jaeger, that's correct, yes.
23 Q. Same with Ms. Crawford?
24 A. No. Ms. Crawford was more or less in the same boat as
25 Mr. Jaeger with her responses, her vagueness of her

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1 answers, I guess you could say, as well as the fact
2 that she was under the influence of alcohol, slurred
3 speech and whatnot.
4 Q. So just walk me through, please, after you put
5 Mr. Mattice in handcuffs and in the back of your squad
6 car, everything you did relative to these two ladies,
7 speaking to them, getting them out of the car, and
8 everything you did until you're done with the stop,
9 please.
10 A. Sure. I remember I approached Ms. Crawford on the
11 passenger side and spoke to her through her passenger
12 window. Advised her that Mr. Mattice -- I believe she
W 13 had asked why he was being arrested. I advised her
14 that we found some narcotics. I asked her if there
15 was any more narcotics in the vehicle or on her
16 person. She said no.
17 At that point I requested -- or asked her
18 if she would mind stepping out of the vehicle and
19 speaking with me further. She complied, exited the
20 vehicle. We stepped back, I believe, not directly in
21 front of my patrol car, but off to -- would be the
22 passenger's side in between their vehicle and mine.
23 Asked her again if she had any weapons or
24 narcotics on her. She said no. I asked her if I
25 could search her. She said yes. At which point -- I

W/

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1 believe she was wearing some sort of a zip-up hoodie
2 or jacket that was open with just a regular t-shirt or
3 long sleeve shirt underneath the -- was not -- did not
4 expose anything. It was -- she was completely
5 covered.
6 I believe I checked the pockets on her
7 hoodie or jacket. I don't remember anything of note
8 being in them that had any -- you know, no --
9 obviously, she had no contraband or anything on her.
10 Then I found immediately at that point I did ask
11 her to -- and I want to reiterate that she was
12 directed multiple times -- because I've done this
W 13 before and I always tell them when I instruct this,
14 the first thing I say is I don't want do not expose
15 anything. I don't want any skin shown. I don't want
16 to see anything.
17 All I would have requested her to do is to
18 grab the underwire of her bra through her shirt, with
19 her shirt still on, down, nothing exposed, pull it
20 away from her body one or two inches and shake out the
21 underwire. Therefore, if anything was concealed
22 within, it should fall down and out of the shirt.
23 She did it from a standing position.
24 Nothing was exposed, she was never told to lift her
25 shirt or anything of that nature. She did that. And

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1 then at that point I had her step back onto the grassy
2 hill there on the side of the freeway.
3 And I went up to Ms. Jaeger. Asked her if
4 there was anything -- any narcotics in the vehicle.
5 She said no. Asked her if she would mind stepping out
6 of the vehicle and talking to me. She said okay. We
7 went through the exact same thing. I had her come
8 back by Ms. Crawford. I don't recall her wearing
9 anything that I searched, per se, on her person.
10 The only thing I believe I asked her to do
11 was to, again, grab the underwire of her bra. She was
12 advised not to expose anything, pull it out away from
W 13 her body a few inches, shake it out. Explained to her
14 the purpose of it, that if there's anything concealed
15 within, it should fall down. She was wearing nothing
16 revealing. She didn't have a tank top on or anything
17 like that where any skin was exposed.
18 She completed the task from a standing
19 position. And again, nothing was lifted up, nothing
20 was exposed, nothing of note was found. And she was
21 asked to go stand on the side of the hill. At which
22 point I believe that's when Officer Silver showed up.
23 I requested from Ms. Jaeger if I check the
24 interior of the vehicle for any narcotics. She gave
25 me consent to do so and the vehicle search was

v^/

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1 conducted.
2 Prior to Ms. Crawford getting out of the
3 vehicle -- I did fail to mention that there was an
4 open intox. She had a twelve-ounce can of beer -- I
5 don't recall the type that was open that she had
6 been drinking. It was still cold to the touch upon
7 when I searched the vehicle. But other than that,
8 nothing else of note was found.
9 At which point they were instructed they

10 could get back in the vehicle and I would be with them
11 shortly. I believe I went and did some computer work

12 on Mr. Mattice and the rest of the IDs to make sure
W 13 there was no wants or warrants on anybody. And then

14 they were -- she was advised on the -- or Ms. Jaeger
15 was advised on the traffic infraction and they were
16 sent on their way.
17 Did you issue tickets to either of the women for
18 anything?
19 I did not.
20 Why not?
21 I had the full intention at the time of arresting
22 Ms. Crawford on the open intox. When Officer Silver
23 got down on the scene, he had been sent by Sergeant
24 Vroman, who was the commanding officer for the night,
25 to check up on me. And then had said, hey, you know,

w

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Sarge says it's getting busy, he wants you to wrap
this up.
So due to call volume that was coming in, I
decided not to waste any more time dealing with
Ms. Crawford and Ms. Jaeger. And I just decided I
would just focus on Mr. Mattice. That's why they were
both advised and sent on their way without without
Ms. Crawford getting her misdemeanor open intox,
9 either citation or arrest, and Ms. Jaeger receiving an

10 impeding traffic citation.
11 Q Did you perform a pat down on Ms. Jaeger at any time?

12 A I don't recall. Though I know my testimony for the
W 13 prelim for Mr. Mattice says that both women were pat
14 downs. So I will have to revert back to that
15 testimony to say that I must have at some point.
16 Q So as we sit here today, you don't recall performing a
17 pat down on either woman, correct?
18 A There was a limited search on Ms. Crawford of the
19 pockets of the -- either the zip-up hoodie or the --
20 the jacket that she was wearing.
21 Q You remember checking the pockets of her hoodie?
22 A Or jacket, whatever it was. It was a zip down, two
23 side pockets.
24 Q Okay. Is that the only thing you recall searching on

25 Ms. Crawford as we sit here today?
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Page 54
1 A. Physically myself, yes. I mean, obviously, I had them
2 do the grab the underwires on their own.
3 Q. I understand. You testified at the preliminary exam
4 relative to Mr. Mattice, your testimony previously was
5 that you did a pat down search of both women? Yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it was true and it was under oath and you expect
8 it was true as we sit here today?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q- You just don't recall doing it?
11 A. The exact I recall Ms. Crawford's with with
12 in regards to the pockets.
W 13 Q. Let's do it this way. What is a pat down search? How

14 do you do it?
15 A. Well, pat down search is a a pat down is different

16 than a search.
17 Q. What's a pat down? Explain.
18 A. Pat down is exterior feeling of the outer layer of

19 clothing.
20 Q. Where?
21 A. Could be, I mean, the waistline, the sides, the it

22 could be I mean, anywhere, the exterior portion of
23 the clothing.
24 Q. I understand. You're taught how to do a pat down as

25 an officer? Yes?

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1 A Yes.
2 Q Where were you taught to do a pat down?
3 A In the police academy.
4 Q Is there a policy within Hazel Park about pat downs?

5 A I don't recall.
6 Q Tell me how you do a normal pat down.
7 A I usually would start at the top of by the neck, I
check the hat if they had a hat, top of the neck,
9 around the neck line, down the back, around the sides,
10 chest area down, around the belt line, and then down
11 the pant legs.
12 Q. Pant legs, do you pat down back pockets?
W 13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Front pockets?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Yes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Inside the leg, like what would be the inseam for a
19 pant?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the outside?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Do you check the crotch area?
24 A. I do on males, yes.
25 Q. Okay. You don't on females?
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1 A No, I do not.
2 Q Ever?
3 A I don't, no.
4 Q Okay. Do you check the buttocks?
5 A The back pockets is the only area I check, yes.
6 Q Okay. And then I assume you run your hands down both
7 sides, the inside and the outside of the leg down to
the ankle area?
9 A Yes.
10 Q So if you did a normal pat down on Ms. Jaeger and
11 Ms. Crawford, you did all of those things that you
12 described?
13 A I did not, no.
14 Q No. If you did a normal pat down, that's what you
15 would have done?
16 A If I did a full on yes. If I did a full body pat
17 down, then that would have been completed, correct.
18 Q During any sort of the pat down that you did on either
19 of the women, did you find anything suspicious?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you feel anything that you thought was not part of
22 normal clothing?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you check their pants pocket other than what may
25 have attended to the pat down search?

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1 A No, I did not. I do recall they were in tight pants
2 of some sort, where it was not necessary. That I
3 could -- I could visually see that there was nothing
4 concealed either down their legs, in their pockets, or
5 whatnot. And I don't -- I don't even believe they had
6 pockets on their pants.
7 Q You did not look in their pants?
8 A No.
9 Q You did not ask them to pull away from their body
10 their belt line or their waistband and shake that?
11 A No.
12 Q You did not ask them to take off their shoes or socks?
W 13 A I don't believe they were wearing shoes or socks. I
14 believe they were both in sandals.
15 Q You did not ask them to take off their sandals?
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q Did you ever ask either one of them to bend over the
18 hood of your car?
19 A They stood over -- they stood by my car. Because you
20 don't want the narcotic to fall or whatever contraband
21 to fall onto the grass and lose it, per se. So I
22 don't believe I had them bend over, no.
23 Q So they were in front of your car? Meaning, they were

24 facing the hood and windshield of your car?
25 A I believe they were what would be the front right

w

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1 corner panel.
2 Q. Nevertheless
3 A. Not directly in front, on the side facing towards
4 Q. Still in the front?
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. Okay. And still somewhat facing your windshield?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you want that headlight to be on them so you could
9 see if anything fell?
10 A. I didn't even think about that at the time. There was
11 enough light out with the lights and headlights, I'm

12 guessing. That was not I guess, that never crossed
W 13 my mind specifically for that purpose.
14 Q. But there was enough light for you to see if anything

15 fell?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Anything small?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Any small packets?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So other people could see them? Your fellow officers
22 could see them?
23 A. Fellow officers, yes.
24 Q. Both women described that you directed them to bend
25 over, lift their bras and their shirts such that their

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1 breasts would fall down, and then you directed them to
2 shake their breasts to make sure nothing was
3 underneath their breasts. Do you follow me?
4 A. I follow you, yes.
5 Q. If that's true, that would be a violation of their
6 civil rights?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Under no circumstance could you as an officer ask them
9 to do that?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. After you asked them to lift their I think you said

12 underwire?
W 13 A. Did not ask them to lift anything.
14 Q. Let me say it a different way. After you asked each
15 of them to pull away from their body the underwire of
16 their bras is that what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. After you asked each of them to pull away from
19 their body the underwire of their bras, did you ask
20 them to shake in any way, shape, or form?
21 A. I asked them to shake the underwire, yes.
22 Q. Did you ask them to shake their bodies? Meaning, the
23 top torso
24 A. No.
25 Q. in any way, shape, or form?

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1 A No.
2 Q You just asked them to shake in an up and down fashion
3 while their hands were away from their chests to some
4 degree, is that accurate?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Who was watching when that was occurring?
7 A Officer Silver or I'm sorry Officer Morris would
8 have been the only one there with me at that time.
9 Q Officer Silver had not shown up yet?
10 A Correct.
11 Q He didn't show up until both were on the grassy side
12 of the roadway?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What was Officer Morris doing while you were doing
15 that?
16 A I believe he was standing right there with me
17 watching.
18 Q Okay. At no time prior to your search of them, as you
19 described, did you see either woman reach into their
20 shirt or to their bra?
21 A No.
24 Q Is it your testimony that both Ms. Crawford and
25 Ms. Jaeger consented to the searches?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How did you ask them? Let's start with Ms. Crawford,
3 I think you said was first?
5 Q. Describe for me your conversation with Ms. Crawford.
6 A. I asked them if they had any weapons or narcotics on
7 their person.
8 Q. They said no?
9 A. They said no. And I asked can I search you.
10 Q. Is that it?
11 A. That's it.
12 Q. Okay.
w 13 A. They said yes.
14 Q. So you asked both women in the same fashion
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. as you just described on the record? Yes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. No more than that?
19 A. I don't believe so, no.
20 Q. Okay. And you are testifying that they both said yes?
21 A. Uh-huh, yes.
22 Q. Okay. And that was the consent I'm sorry that
23 was the extent of the conversation you had with them
24 concerning consent?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. If either or both said no, you would not have been
2 allowed by law to do a pat down or the bra checking,

3 is that correct?
5 Q. Did you document in any way, shape, or form this
6 conversation concerning consent?
7 A. I believe it's reflected in my report.
8 Q. Other than that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you have them sign anything?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you record it?
^ 13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you have Officer Morris witness it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He was there --
17 A. He was there when I asked, yes.
18 Q. Both for consent?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you inform anybody that you were about to perform
21 a search of two women on the side of 1-75 other than
22 Officer Morris?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever see Officer Morris with his phone out,
25 his cell phone?

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1 A No.
2 Q Did you run a background check on either Ms. Jaeger or

3 Ms. Crawford while you had them stopped on the side of
4 the road?
5 A Other than just running them through SOS and NCIC,
6 through LEIN, their driver's license numbers, which
7 would return any warrants, no.
8 Q You did that much?
9 A That is what I did, yes.
10 Q And you didn't find any history of narcotics use or
11 arrests for either one of them?
12 A I did not do a CLEMIS search to show me that. SOS
W 13 does sometimes show prior drug crimes, but I don't
14 recall -- I'm confident Ms. Jaeger didn't have any on
15 hers. But I don't recall if Ms. Crawford did or not.
16 Q Okay. But it was not part of your basis for deciding
17 to do a search?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And you're reasonably certain as we sit here today
20 that Ms. Jaeger's history was clean?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You're not sure about Crawford?
23 A Correct.
24 Q I know you say that there was no video on you -- that
25 you took. Was there video capabilities on your car

W

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1 that night?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are there on any cars for the department?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You don't have any on-car videos?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Do you have any audio that you wear?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Throughout this entire process after your initial
10 conversation with Ms. Jaeger and Ms. Crawford, you did
11 not believe them to ever possess a weapon or
12 potentially possess a weapon of any kind, is that
W 13 accurate?
14 A. Other than the the notion that narcotics and
15 weapons go hand in hand, no.
16 Q. Other than that? I'm talking about something specific
17 relative to either one of these ladies?
18 A. Nothing specific, no.
19 Q. Did you ask both women to get out of the car around
20 the same time and you searched one at a time?
21 A. No. They were they were Ms. Crawford was asked
22 to exit the vehicle, conducted the search. Then I
23 asked Ms. Jaeger to exit the vehicle.
24 MR. GIROUX: I don't have any more

25 questions. Thank you for your time.

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1 MR. ACHO: We're done.
2 (The deposition was concluded at 10:25 a.m.
3 Signature of the witness was not requested by counsel
4 for the respective parties hereto.)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
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CERTIFICATE
STATE OF MICHIGAN
COUNTY OF MACOMB
I, Heather DeMar, RPR, CSR, and Notary
Public in and for the above county and state, do
hereby certify that this deposition was taken before
me at the time and place hereinbefore set forth; that
the witness was by me first duly sworn to testify to
10 the truth; that this is a true, full and correct
11 transcript of my stenographic notes so taken; and that
12 I am not related, nor of counsel to either party, nor
13 interested in the event of this cause. I agree that I
14 nor any person, attorney, paralega.1 , or expert witness
15 may make, copy, and/or distribute to others for future
16 sales, monetary gain, or any other purpose, a
1 / transcript and/or video without paying Tri-County
18 Court Reporters the ordinary and customary charges for
19 any and all additional transcripts.
20
21
22 Heather DeMar, RPR, CSR - 8 951
23 Notary Public.
24 Macomb dourly, Michigan

25 My CQ!^*^KuBpires: 8/31/2017

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Ryan McCabe Deposition Hazel Park Strip Search Lawsuit

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2:16-cv-13263-RHC-DRG Doc # 17-4 Filed 05/24/17 Pg 1 of 68 Pg ID 189

Transcript of the Testimony of

Date: April 28, 2017

Case: JAN CRAWFORD and MICHELLE JAEGER v. RYAN

Printed On: May 8, 2017

EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN

JAN CRAWFORD and MICHELLE

vs. Case No. 16-13263

Hon. Robert H. Cleland

RYAN McCABE and JOHN DOE

OFFICERS 1-3, In Their

The Deposition of OFFICER RYAN McCABE,

Friday, April 28, 2017,

Before Heather DeMar, RPR, CSR-8951.

Tri-County Court Reporters

5 28588 Northwestern Highway, Suite 100

6 Southfield, Michigan 48034

8 Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs

12 Cummings, McClorey, Davis & Acho, P.L.C.

14 Livonia, Michigan 48150

16 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant McCabe.

Tri-County Court Reporters

4 OFFICER RYAN McCABE

12 (Exhibits attached to transcript.)

14 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 1-2 12

Tri-County Court Reporters

2 Friday, April 28, 2017

5 OFFICER RYAN McCABE,

6 was thereupon called as a witness herein, and after '

7 having first been duly sworn to testify to the truth,

8 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

9 examined and testified as follows:

10 MR. GIROUX: Please state your full name

11 for the record.

12 THE WITNESS: Ryan Michael McCabe.

W 13 MR. GIROUX: Officer McCabe, have you ever

14 given a deposition before?

15 THE WITNESS: I have not.

16 MR. GIROUX: Okay. Just a couple ground

17 rules to make sure we have an accurate record when

18 we're done with this process. Please answer all my

19 questions verbally, meaning, with words. The biggest

20 issue we have is uh-huhs and huh-uhs don't come out

21 very clearly on the record. So if you use yeses and

22 nos, it'll be preferred. Again, just so we know that

24 reporter takes us down accurately. Okay?

Tri-County Court Reporters

2 a question that I'm asking you, stop, ask me to clear

3 up any confusion if there is or any ambiguity and I'll

4 do my best to do so. Okay?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

6 MR. GIROUX: Otherwise, I'm going to assume

7 that we're communicating and you understood the

8 question. Seem fair?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

10 MR. GIROUX: Lastly, you're going to know

11 my questions before I get all the words out sometimes,

12 I speak slowly and/or maybe pause from time to time.

13 Wait, however, until I'm done speaking before you

14 respond. Because if we talk over each other even a

16 to get everything down in order. Okay?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

20 Q. Instead of me going ad nauseam about your background,

21 since you've not been deposed before, could you kind