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ABIGHEARTOPENTOGOD
September30,2013Issue[1]AntonioSpadaro,S.J.[2]
TheexclusiveinterviewwithPopeFrancis

EditorsNote:Thisinterview
withPopeFrancistookplace
overthecourseofthreemeetings
duringAugust2013inRome.The
interviewwasconductedin
personbyAntonioSpadaro,S.J.,
editorinchiefofLaCivilt
Cattolica,theItalianJesuit
journal.FatherSpadaro
conductedtheinterviewon
behalfofLaCiviltCattolica,
Americaandseveralother
majorJesuitjournalsaroundthe
world.Theeditorialteamsat
eachofthejournalsprepared
questionsandsentthemto
FatherSpadaro,whothen
consolidatedandorganized
them.Theinterviewwas
conductedinItalian.Afterthe
Italiantextwasofficially
approved,Americacommissionedateamoffiveindependentexpertstotranslateitinto
English.Americaissolelyresponsiblefortheaccuracyofthistranslation.

FatherSpadarometthepopeattheVaticaninthepopesapartmentsintheCasaSanta
Marta,wherehehaschosentolivesincehiselection.FatherSpadarobeginshisaccountof
theinterviewwithadescriptionofthepopeslivingquarters.

ItisMonday,Aug.19,2013.IhaveanappointmentwithPopeFrancisat10a.m.inSanta
Marta.I,however,inheritedfrommyfatherthehabitofarrivingearlyforeverything.The
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peoplewhowelcomemetellmetomakemyselfcomfortableinoneoftheparlors.Idonot
havetowaitforlongandafterafewminutesIambroughtovertothelift.Thisshortwait
gavemetheopportunitytorememberthemeetinginLisbonoftheeditorsofanumberof
journalsoftheSocietyofJesus,atwhichtheproposalemergedtopublishjointlyan
interviewwiththepope.Ihadadiscussionwiththeothereditors,duringwhichweproposed
somequestionsthatwouldexpresseveryonesinterests.IemergefromtheliftandIseethe
popealreadywaitingformeatthedoor.Inmeetinghimhere,Ihadthepleasantimpression
thatIwasnotcrossinganythreshold.

Ienterhisroomandthepopeinvitesmetositinhiseasychair.Hehimselfsitsonachair
thatishigherandstifferbecauseofhisbackproblems.Thesettingissimple,austere.The
workspaceoccupiedbythedeskissmall.Iamimpressednotonlybythesimplicityofthe
furniture,butalsobytheobjectsintheroom.Thereareonlyafew.Theseincludeaniconof
St.Francis,astatueofOurLadyofLujn,patronsaintofArgentina,acrucifixandastatueof
St.Josephsleeping,verysimilartotheonewhichIhadseeninhisofficeattheColegio
MximodeSanMiguel,wherehewasrectorandalsoprovincialsuperior.Thespiritualityof
JorgeMarioBergoglioisnotmadeofharmonizedenergies,ashewouldcallthem,butof
humanfaces:Christ,St.Francis,St.JosephandMary.

Thepopewelcomesmewiththatsmilethathasalreadytravelledallaroundtheworld,that
samesmilethatopenshearts.Webeginspeakingaboutmanythings,butaboveallabouthis
triptoBrazil.Thepopeconsidersitatruegrace.Iaskhimifhehashadtimetorest.Hetells
methatyes,heisdoingwell,butaboveallthatWorldYouthDaywasforhimamystery.He
saysthatheisnotusedtotalkingtosomanypeople:Imanagetolookatindividualpersons,
oneatatime,toenterintopersonalcontactwithwhomeverIhaveinfrontofme.Imnot
usedtothemasses.Itellhimthatitistrue,thatpeoplenoticeit,andthatitmakesabig
impressiononeveryone.Youcantellthatwheneverheisamongacrowdofpeoplehiseyes
actuallyrestonindividualpersons.Thenthetelevisioncamerasprojecttheimagesand
everyonecanseethem.Thiswayhecanfeelfreetoremainindirectcontact,atleastwithhis
eyes,withtheindividualshehasinfrontofhim.Tome,heseemshappyaboutthis:thathe
canbewhoheis,thathedoesnothavetoalterhisordinarywayofcommunicatingwith
others,evenwhenheisinfrontofmillionsofpeople,ashappenedonthebeachat
Copacabana.

BeforeIswitchonthevoicerecorderwealsotalkaboutotherthings.Commentingononeof
myownpublicationshetellsmethatthetwocontemporaryFrenchthinkersthatheholds
dearareHenriDeLubac,S.J.,andMicheldeCerteau,S.J.Ialsospeaktohimaboutmore
personalmatters.Hetoospeakstomeonapersonallevel,inparticularabouthiselectionto
thepontificate.Hetellsmethatwhenhebegantorealizethathemightbeelected,on
Wednesday,March13,duringlunch,hefeltadeepandinexplicablepeaceandinterior
consolationcomeoverhim,alongwithagreatdarkness,adeepobscurityabouteverything

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else.Andthosefeelingsaccompaniedhimuntilhiselectionlaterthatday.

ActuallyIwouldhavelikedtocontinuespeakingwithhiminthisverypersonalmannerfor
muchlonger,butItakeupmypapers,filledwithquestionsthatIhadwrittendownbefore,
andIturnonthevoicerecorder.FirstofallIthankhimonbehalfofalltheeditorsofthe
variousJesuitmagazinesthatwillpublishthisinterview.

JustabitbeforetheaudiencethatthepopegrantedonJune14totheJesuitsofLaCivilt
Cattolica,thepopehadspokentomeabouthisgreatdifficultyingivinginterviews.Hehad
toldmethathepreferstothinkcarefullyratherthangivequickresponsestoonthespot
interviews.Hefeelsthattherightanswerscometohimafterhavingalreadygivenhisinitial
response.IdidnotrecognizemyselfwhenIrespondedtothejournalistsaskingme
questionsonthereturnflightfromRiodeJaneiro,hetellsme.Butitstrue:manytimesin
thisinterviewthepopeinterruptedwhathewassayinginresponsetoaquestionseveral
times,inordertoaddsomethingtoanearlierresponse.TalkingwithPopeFrancisisakind
ofvolcanicflowofideasthatareboundupwitheachother.Eventakingnotesgivesmean
uncomfortablefeeling,asifIweretryingtosuppressasurgingspringofdialogue.Itisclear
thatPopeFrancisismoreusedtohavingconversationsthangivinglectures.

WhoIsJorgeMarioBergoglio?

Ihavethefirstquestionready,butthenIdecidenottofollowthescriptthatIhadprepared
formyself,andIaskhimpointblank:WhoisJorgeMarioBergoglio?Thepopestaresat
meinsilence.IaskhimifthisisaquestionthatIamallowedtoask....Henodsthatitis,and
hetellsme:Idonotknowwhatmightbethemostfittingdescription....Iamasinner.This
isthemostaccuratedefinition.Itisnotafigureofspeech,aliterarygenre.Iamasinner.

[3]Thepopecontinuestoreflectandconcentrate,
asifhedidnotexpectthisquestion,asifhewereforcedtoreflectfurther.Yes,perhapsIcan
saythatIamabitastute,thatIcanadapttocircumstances,butitisalsotruethatIamabit
nave.Yes,butthebestsummary,theonethatcomesmorefromtheinsideandIfeelmost
trueisthis:IamasinnerwhomtheLordhaslookedupon.Andherepeats:I
amonewhois

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lookeduponbytheLord.Ialwaysfeltmymotto,MiserandoatqueEligendo[ByHaving
MercyandbyChoosingHim],wasverytrueforme.

ThemottoistakenfromtheHomiliesofBedetheVenerable,whowritesinhiscommentson
theGospelstoryofthecallingofMatthew:Jesussawapublican,andsincehelookedathim
withfeelingsofloveandchosehim,hesaidtohim,Followme.Thepopeadds:Ithinkthe
LatingerundmiserandoisimpossibletotranslateinbothItalianandSpanish.Iliketo
translateitwithanothergerundthatdoesnotexist:misericordiando[mercying].

PopeFranciscontinueshisreflectionandtellsme,inachangeoftopicthatIdonot
immediatelyunderstand:IdonotknowRomewell.Iknowafewthings.Theseincludethe
BasilicaofSt.MaryMajorIalwaysusedtogothere.IlaughandItellhim,Weall
understoodthatverywell,HolyFather!Right,yesthepopecontinuesIknowSt.Mary
Major,St.Peters...butwhenIhadtocometoRome,Ialwaysstayedin[theneighborhoodof]
ViadellaScrofa.FromthereIoftenvisitedtheChurchofSt.LouisofFrance,andIwent
theretocontemplatethepaintingofTheCallingofSt.MatthewbyCaravaggio.Ibeginto
intuitwhatthepopewantstotellme.

ThatfingerofJesus,pointingatMatthew.Thatsme.Ifeellikehim.LikeMatthew.Here
thepopebecomesdetermined,asifhehadfinallyfoundtheimagehewaslookingfor:Itis
thegestureofMatthewthatstrikesme:heholdsontohismoneyasiftosay,No,notme!
No,thismoneyismine.Here,thisisme,asinneronwhomtheLordhasturnedhisgaze.
AndthisiswhatIsaidwhentheyaskedmeifIwouldacceptmyelectionaspontiff.Thenthe
popewhispersinLatin:Iamasinner,butItrustintheinfinitemercyandpatienceofour
LordJesusChrist,andIacceptinaspiritofpenance.

WhyDidYouBecomeaJesuit?

IunderstandthatthismottoofacceptanceisforPopeFrancisalsoabadgeofidentity.There
wasnothinglefttoadd.IcontinuewiththefirstquestionthatIwasgoingtoask:Holy
Father,whatmadeyouchoosetoentertheSocietyofJesus?Whatstruckyouaboutthe
JesuitOrder?

Iwantedsomethingmore.ButIdidnotknowwhat.Ienteredthediocesanseminary.Iliked
theDominicansandIhadDominicanfriends.ButthenIchosetheSocietyofJesus,whichI
knewwellbecausetheseminarywasentrustedtotheJesuits.Threethingsinparticular
struckmeabouttheSociety:themissionaryspirit,communityanddiscipline.Andthisis
strange,becauseIamareally,reallyundisciplinedperson.Buttheirdiscipline,thewaythey
managetheirtimethesethingsstruckmesomuch.

Andthenathingthatisreallyimportantforme:community.Iwasalwayslookingfora
community.Ididnotseemyselfasapriestonmyown.Ineedacommunity.Andyoucantell

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thisbythefactthatIamhereinSantaMarta.AtthetimeoftheconclaveIlivedinRoom
207.(Theroomswereassignedbydrawinglots.)Thisroomwherewearenowwasaguest
room.Ichosetolivehere,inRoom201,becausewhenItookpossessionofthepapal
apartment,insidemyselfIdistinctlyheardano.ThepapalapartmentintheApostolic
Palaceisnotluxurious.Itisold,tastefullydecoratedandlarge,butnotluxurious.Butinthe
enditislikeaninvertedfunnel.Itisbigandspacious,buttheentranceisreallytight.People
cancomeonlyindribsanddrabs,andIcannotlivewithoutpeople.Ineedtolivemylifewith
others.

WhilethepopespeaksaboutmissionandcommunityIrecallallofthosedocumentsofthe
SocietyofJesusthattalkaboutacommunityformissionandIfindthemamonghiswords.

WhatDoesItMeanforaJesuittoBeBishopofRome?

IwanttocontinuealongthislineandIaskthepopeaquestionregardingthefactthatheis
thefirstJesuittobeelectedbishopofRome:Howdoyouunderstandtheroleofserviceto
theuniversalchurchthatyouhavebeencalledtoplayinthelightofIgnatianspirituality?
WhatdoesitmeanforaJesuittobeelectedpope?WhatelementofIgnatianspirituality
helpsyouliveyourministry?

Discernment,hereplies.DiscernmentisoneofthethingsthatworkedinsideSt.Ignatius.
ForhimitisaninstrumentofstruggleinordertoknowtheLordandfollowhimmore
closely.IwasalwaysstruckbyasayingthatdescribesthevisionofIgnatius:noncoerceria
maximo,sedcontineriaminimodivinumest(nottobelimitedbythegreatestandyettobe
containedinthetiniestthisisthedivine).Ithoughtalotaboutthisphraseinconnection
withtheissueofdifferentrolesinthegovernmentofthechurch,aboutbecomingthe
superiorofsomebodyelse:itisimportantnottoberestrictedbyalargerspace,anditis
importanttobeabletostayinrestrictedspaces.Thisvirtueofthelargeandsmallis
magnanimity.Thankstomagnanimity,wecanalwayslookatthehorizonfromtheposition
whereweare.Thatmeansbeingabletodothelittlethingsofeverydaywithabigheartopen
toGodandtoothers.Thatmeansbeingabletoappreciatethesmallthingsinsidelarge
horizons,thoseofthekingdomofGod.

Thismotto,thepopecontinues,offersparameterstoassumeacorrectpositionfor
discernment,inordertohearthethingsofGodfromGodspointofview.AccordingtoSt.
Ignatius,greatprinciplesmustbeembodiedinthecircumstancesofplace,timeandpeople.
Inhisownway,JohnXXIIIadoptedthisattitudewithregardtothegovernmentofthe
church,whenherepeatedthemotto,Seeeverythingturnablindeyetomuchcorrecta
little.JohnXXIIIsawallthings,themaximumdimension,buthechosetocorrectafew,the
minimumdimension.Youcanhavelargeprojectsandimplementthembymeansofafewof
thesmallestthings.Oryoucanuseweakmeansthataremoreeffectivethanstrongones,as
PaulalsosaidinhisFirstLettertotheCorinthians.
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Thisdiscernmenttakestime.Forexample,manythinkthatchangesandreformscantake
placeinashorttime.Ibelievethatwealwaysneedtimetolaythefoundationsforreal,
effectivechange.Andthisisthetimeofdiscernment.Sometimesdiscernmentinsteadurges
ustodopreciselywhatyouhadatfirstthoughtyouwoulddolater.Andthatiswhathas
happenedtomeinrecentmonths.DiscernmentisalwaysdoneinthepresenceoftheLord,
lookingatthesigns,listeningtothethingsthathappen,thefeelingofthepeople,especially
thepoor.Mychoices,includingthoserelatedtothedaytodayaspectsoflife,liketheuseof
amodestcar,arerelatedtoaspiritualdiscernmentthatrespondstoaneedthatarisesfrom
lookingatthings,atpeopleandfromreadingthesignsofthetimes.DiscernmentintheLord
guidesmeinmywayofgoverning.

ButIamalwayswaryofdecisionsmadehastily.Iamalwayswaryofthefirstdecision,that
is,thefirstthingthatcomestomymindifIhavetomakeadecision.Thisisusuallythe
wrongthing.Ihavetowaitandassess,lookingdeepintomyself,takingthenecessarytime.
Thewisdomofdiscernmentredeemsthenecessaryambiguityoflifeandhelpsusfindthe
mostappropriatemeans,whichdonotalwayscoincidewithwhatlooksgreatandstrong.

TheSocietyofJesus

DiscernmentisthereforeapillarofthespiritualityofPopeFrancis.Itexpressesina
particularmannerhisJesuitidentity.IaskhimthenhowtheSocietyofJesuscanbeof
servicetothechurchtoday,andwhatcharacteristicssetitapart.Ialsoaskhimtocomment
onthepossiblerisksthattheSocietyruns.

TheSocietyofJesusisaninstitutionintension,thepopereplied,alwaysfundamentallyin
tension.AJesuitisapersonwhoisnotcenteredinhimself.TheSocietyitselfalsolookstoa
centeroutsideitselfitscenterisChristandhischurch.SoiftheSocietycentersitselfin
Christandthechurch,ithastwofundamentalpointsofreferenceforitsbalanceandfor
beingabletoliveonthemargins,onthefrontier.Ifitlookstoomuchinuponitself,itputs
itselfatthecenterasaverysolid,verywellarmedstructure,butthenitrunstheriskof
feelingsafeandselfsufficient.TheSocietymustalwayshavebeforeitselftheDeussemper
maior,thealwaysgreaterGod,andthepursuitoftheevergreatergloryofGod,thechurchas
truebrideofChristourLord,Christthekingwhoconquersusandtowhomweofferour
wholepersonandallourhardwork,evenifweareclaypots,inadequate.Thistensiontakes
usoutofourselvescontinuously.ThetoolthatmakestheSocietyofJesusnotcenteredin
itself,reallystrong,is,then,theaccountofconscience,whichisatthesametimepaternal
andfraternal,becauseithelpstheSocietytofulfillitsmissionbetter.

ThepopeisreferringtotherequirementintheConstitutionsoftheSocietyofJesusthatthe
Jesuitmustmanifesthisconscience,thatis,hisinnerspiritualsituation,sothatthe
superiorcanbemoreconsciousandknowledgeableaboutsendingapersononmission.

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ButitisdifficulttospeakoftheSociety,continuesPopeFrancis.Whenyouexpresstoo
much,youruntheriskofbeingmisunderstood.TheSocietyofJesuscanbedescribedonlyin
narrativeform.Onlyinnarrativeformdoyoudiscern,notinaphilosophicalortheological
explanation,whichallowsyourathertodiscuss.ThestyleoftheSocietyisnotshapedby
discussion,butbydiscernment,whichofcoursepresupposesdiscussionaspartofthe
process.Themysticaldimensionofdiscernmentneverdefinesitsedgesanddoesnot
completethethought.TheJesuitmustbeapersonwhosethoughtisincomplete,inthesense
ofopenendedthinking.TherehavebeenperiodsintheSocietyinwhichJesuitshavelivedin
anenvironmentofclosedandrigidthought,moreinstructiveasceticthanmystical:this
distortionofJesuitlifegavebirthtotheEpitomeInstituti.

Thepopeisreferringtoacompendium,formulatedinthe20thcenturyforpractical
purposes,thatcametobeseenasareplacementfortheConstitutions.Theformationof
Jesuitsforsometimewasshapedbythistext,totheextentthatsomeneverreadthe
Constitutions,thefoundationaltext.Duringthisperiod,inthepopesview,therules
threatenedtooverwhelmthespirit,andtheSocietyyieldedtothetemptationtoexplicate
anddefineitscharismtoonarrowly.

PopeFranciscontinues:No,theJesuitalwaysthinks,againandagain,lookingatthe
horizontowardwhichhemustgo,withChristatthecenter.Thisishisrealstrength.Andthat
pushestheSocietytobesearching,creativeandgenerous.Sonow,morethanever,the
SocietyofJesusmustbecontemplativeinaction,mustliveaprofoundclosenesstothewhole
churchasboththepeopleofGodandholymotherthehierarchicalchurch.Thisrequires
muchhumility,sacrificeandcourage,especiallywhenyouaremisunderstoodoryouarethe
subjectofmisunderstandingsandslanders,butthatisthemostfruitfulattitude.Letusthink
ofthetensionsofthepasthistory,inthepreviouscenturies,abouttheChineserites
controversy,theMalabarritesandtheReductionsinParaguay.

IamawitnessmyselftothemisunderstandingsandproblemsthattheSocietyhasrecently
experienced.Amongthosethereweretoughtimes,especiallywhenitcametotheissueof
extendingtoallJesuitsthefourthvowofobediencetothepope.Whatgavemeconfidenceat
thetimeofFatherArrupe[superiorgeneraloftheJesuitsfrom1965to1983]wasthefact
thathewasamanofprayer,amanwhospentmuchtimeinprayer.Irememberhimwhenhe
prayedsittingonthegroundintheJapanesestyle.Forthishehadtherightattitudeand
madetherightdecisions.

TheModel:PeterFaber,ReformedPriest

IamwonderingiftherearefiguresamongtheJesuits,fromtheoriginsoftheSocietytothe
presentdate,thathaveaffectedhiminaparticularway,soIaskthepopewhotheyareand
why.HebeginsbymentioningIgnatiusLoyola[founderoftheJesuits]andFrancisXavier,
butthenfocusesonafigurethatotherJesuitscertainlyknow,butwhoisofcoursenotas
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wellknowntothegeneralpublic:PeterFaber(150646),fromSavoy.Hewasoneofthefirst
companionsofSt.Ignatius,infactthefirst,withwhomhesharedaroomwhenthetwowere
studentsattheUniversityofParis.ThethirdroommatewasFrancisXavier.PiusIXdeclared
FaberblessedonSept.5,1872,andthecauseforhiscanonizationisstillopen.

ThepopecitesaneditionofFabersworks,whichheaskedtwoJesuitscholars,MiguelA.
FioritoandJaimeH.Amadeo,toeditandpublishwhenhewasprovincialsuperiorofthe
JesuitsinArgentina.AneditionthatheparticularlylikesistheonebyMicheldeCerteau.I
askthepopewhyheissoimpressedbyFaber,andwhichofFaberstraitshefinds
particularlymoving.

[His]dialoguewithall,thepopesays,eventhemostremoteandevenwithhisopponents
hissimplepiety,acertainnavetperhaps,hisbeingavailablestraightaway,hiscareful
interiordiscernment,thefactthathewasamancapableofgreatandstrongdecisionsbut
alsocapableofbeingsogentleandloving.

AsPopeFrancisliststhesepersonalcharacteristicsofhisfavoriteJesuitIunderstandjust
howmuchthisfigurehastrulybeenamodelforhisownlife.MicheldeCerteau,S.J.,
characterizedFabersimplyasthereformedpriest,forwhominteriorexperience,dogmatic
expressionandstructuralreformareintimatelyinseparable.Ibegintounderstand,
therefore,thatPopeFrancisisinspiredpreciselybythiskindofreform.Atthispointthe
popecontinueswithareflectiononthetruefaceofthefundadoroftheSocietyofJesus,
IgnatiusofLoyola.

Ignatiusisamystic,notanascetic,hesays.ItirritatesmewhenIhearthattheSpiritual
ExercisesareIgnatianonlybecausetheyaredoneinsilence.Infact,theExercisescanbe
perfectlyIgnatianalsoindailylifeandwithoutthesilence.AninterpretationoftheSpiritual
Exercisesthatemphasizesasceticism,silenceandpenanceisadistortedonethatbecame
widespreadevenintheSociety,especiallyintheSocietyofJesusinSpain.Iamratherclose
tothemysticalmovement,thatofLouisLallementandJeanJosephSurin.AndFaberwasa
mystic.

ExperienceinChurchGovernment

Whatkindofexperienceinchurchgovernment,asaJesuitsuperiorandthenassuperiorofa
provinceoftheSocietyofJesus,helpedtofullyformFatherBergoglio?Thestyleof
governanceoftheSocietyofJesusinvolvesdecisionsmadebythesuperior,butalso
extensiveconsultationwithhisofficialadvisors.SoIask:Doyouthinkthatyourpast
governmentexperiencecanserveyouingoverningtheuniversalchurch?Afterabriefpause
forreflection,PopeFrancisbecomesveryserious,butalsoveryserene,andheresponds:

InmyexperienceassuperiorintheSociety,tobehonest,Ihavenotalwaysbehavedinthat

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waythatis,Ididnotalwaysdothenecessaryconsultation.Andthiswasnotagoodthing.
MystyleofgovernmentasaJesuitatthebeginninghadmanyfaults.Thatwasadifficult
timefortheSociety:anentiregenerationofJesuitshaddisappeared.BecauseofthisIfound
myselfprovincialwhenIwasstillveryyoung.Iwasonly36yearsold.Thatwascrazy.Ihad
todealwithdifficultsituations,andImademydecisionsabruptlyandbymyself.Yes,butI
mustaddonething:whenIentrustsomethingtosomeone,Itotallytrustthatperson.Heor
shemustmakeareallybigmistakebeforeIrebukethatperson.Butdespitethis,eventually
peoplegettiredofauthoritarianism.

Myauthoritarianandquickmannerofmakingdecisionsledmetohaveseriousproblems
andtobeaccusedofbeingultraconservative.IlivedatimeofgreatinteriorcrisiswhenIwas
inCordova.Tobesure,IhaveneverbeenlikeBlessedImelda[agoodygoody],butIhave
neverbeenarightwinger.Itwasmyauthoritarianwayofmakingdecisionsthatcreated
problems.

IsaythesethingsfromlifeexperienceandbecauseIwanttomakeclearwhatthedangers
are.OvertimeIlearnedmanythings.TheLordhasallowedthisgrowthinknowledgeof
governmentthroughmyfaultsandmysins.SoasArchbishopofBuenosAires,Ihada
meetingwiththesixauxiliarybishopseverytwoweeks,andseveraltimesayearwiththe
councilofpriests.Theyaskedquestionsandweopenedthefloorfordiscussion.Thisgreatly
helpedmetomakethebestdecisions.ButnowIhearsomepeopletellme:Donotconsult
toomuch,anddecidebyyourself.Instead,Ibelievethatconsultationisveryimportant.

Theconsistories[ofcardinals],thesynods[ofbishops]are,forexample,importantplacesto
makerealandactivethisconsultation.Wemust,however,givethemalessrigidform.Ido
notwanttokenconsultations,butrealconsultations.Theconsultationgroupofeight
cardinals,thisoutsideradvisorygroup,isnotonlymydecision,butitistheresultofthewill
ofthecardinals,asitwasexpressedinthegeneralcongregationsbeforetheconclave.AndI
wanttoseethatthisisareal,notceremonialconsultation.

ThinkingWiththeChurch

IkeepmyquestionsfocusedonthethemeofthechurchandIaskPopeFranciswhatit
meansexactlyforhimtothinkwiththechurch,anotionSt.Ignatiuswritesaboutinthe
SpiritualExercises.Hereplieswithouthesitationandbyusinganimage.

TheimageofthechurchIlikeisthatoftheholy,faithfulpeopleofGod.Thisisthe
definitionIoftenuse,andthenthereisthatimagefromtheSecondVaticanCouncils
DogmaticConstitutionontheChurch(No.12).Belongingtoapeoplehasastrong
theologicalvalue.Inthehistoryofsalvation,Godhassavedapeople.Thereisnofullidentity
withoutbelongingtoapeople.Nooneissavedalone,asanisolatedindividual,butGod
attractsuslookingatthecomplexwebofrelationshipsthattakeplaceinthehuman

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community.Godentersintothisdynamic,thisparticipationinthewebofhuman
relationships.

Thepeopleitselfconstitutesasubject.AndthechurchisthepeopleofGodonthejourney
throughhistory,withjoysandsorrows.Thinkingwiththechurch,therefore,ismywayof
beingapartofthispeople.Andallthefaithful,consideredasawhole,areinfalliblein
mattersofbelief,andthepeopledisplaythisinfallibilitasincredendo,thisinfallibilityin
believing,throughasupernaturalsenseofthefaithofallthepeoplewalkingtogether.Thisis
whatIunderstandtodayasthethinkingwiththechurchofwhichSt.Ignatiusspeaks.When
thedialogueamongthepeopleandthebishopsandthepopegoesdownthisroadandis
genuine,thenitisassistedbytheHolySpirit.Sothisthinkingwiththechurchdoesnot
concerntheologiansonly.

ThisishowitiswithMary:Ifyouwanttoknowwhosheis,youasktheologiansifyouwant
toknowhowtoloveher,youhavetoaskthepeople.Inturn,MarylovedJesuswiththeheart
ofthepeople,aswereadintheMagnificat.Weshouldnoteventhink,therefore,that
thinkingwiththechurchmeansonlythinkingwiththehierarchyofthechurch.

Afterabriefpause,PopeFrancisemphasizesinaverydirectmannerthefollowingpoint,in
ordertoavoidmisunderstandings:And,ofcourse,wemustbeverycarefulnottothinkthat
thisinfallibilitasofallthefaithfulIamtalkingaboutinthelightofVaticanIIisaformof
populism.Noitistheexperienceofholymotherthehierarchicalchurch,asSt.Ignatius
calledit,thechurchasthepeopleofGod,pastorsandpeopletogether.Thechurchisthe
totalityofGodspeople.

IseethesanctityofGodspeople,thisdailysanctity,thepopecontinues.Thereisaholy
middleclass,whichwecanallbepartof,theholinessMalguewroteabout.Thepopeis
referringtoJosephMalgue,aFrenchwriter(18761940),particularlytotheunfinished
trilogyBlackStones:TheMiddleClassesofSalvation.SomeFrenchliterarycriticshave
calledMalguetheCatholicProust.

Iseetheholiness,thepopecontinues,inthepatienceofthepeopleofGod:awomanwho
israisingchildren,amanwhoworkstobringhomethebread,thesick,theelderlypriests
whohavesomanywoundsbuthaveasmileontheirfacesbecausetheyservedtheLord,the
sisterswhoworkhardandliveahiddensanctity.Thisisformethecommonsanctity.Ioften
associatesanctitywithpatience:notonlypatienceashypomon[theNewTestamentGreek
word],takingchargeoftheeventsandcircumstancesoflife,butalsoasaconstancyingoing
forward,daybyday.ThisisthesanctityofthemilitantchurchalsomentionedbySt.
Ignatius.Thiswasthesanctityofmyparents:mydad,mymom,mygrandmotherRosawho
lovedmesomuch.InmybreviaryIhavethelastwillofmygrandmotherRosa,andIreadit

often.Formeitislikeaprayer.Sheisasaintwhohassufferedsomuch,alsospiritually,and
yetalwayswentforwardwithcourage.

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Thischurchwithwhichweshouldbethinkingisthehomeofall,notasmallchapelthatcan
holdonlyasmallgroupofselectedpeople.Wemustnotreducethebosomoftheuniversal
churchtoanestprotectingourmediocrity.AndthechurchisMotherthechurchisfruitful.
Itmustbe.Yousee,whenIperceivenegativebehaviorinministersofthechurchorin
consecratedmenorwomen,thefirstthingthatcomestomindis:Heresanunfruitful
bachelororHeresaspinster.Theyareneitherfathersnormothers,inthesensethatthey
havenotbeenabletogivespirituallife.Instead,forexample,whenIreadthelifeofthe
SalesianmissionarieswhowenttoPatagonia,Ireadastoryofthefullnessoflife,of
fruitfulness.

AnotherexamplefromrecentdaysthatIsawgottheattentionofnewspapers:thephone
callImadetoayoungmanwhowrotemealetter.Icalledhimbecausethatletterwasso
beautiful,sosimple.Formethiswasanactofgenerativity.Irealizedthathewasayoung
manwhoisgrowing,thathesawinmeafather,andthatthelettertellssomethingofhislife
tothatfather.Thefathercannotsay,Idonotcare.Thistypeoffruitfulnessissogoodfor
me.

YoungChurchesandAncientChurches

Remainingwiththesubjectofthechurch,Iaskthepopeaquestioninlightoftherecent
WorldYouthDay.Thisgreateventhasturnedthespotlightonyoungpeople,butalsoon
thosespirituallungsthataretheCatholicchurchesfoundedinhistoricallyrecenttimes.
What,Iask,areyourhopesfortheuniversalchurchthatcomefromthesechurches?

Thepopereplies:TheyoungCatholicchurches,astheygrow,developasynthesisoffaith,
cultureandlife,andsoitisasynthesisdifferentfromtheonedevelopedbytheancient
churches.Forme,therelationshipbetweentheancientCatholicchurchesandtheyoung
onesissimilartotherelationshipbetweenyoungandelderlypeopleinasociety.Theybuild
thefuture,theyoungoneswiththeirstrengthandtheotherswiththeirwisdom.Youalways
runsomerisks,ofcourse.Theyoungerchurchesarelikelytofeelselfsufficienttheancient
onesarelikelytowanttoimposeontheyoungerchurchestheirculturalmodels.Butwebuild
thefuturetogether.

TheChurchasFieldHospital

PopeBenedictXVI,inannouncinghisresignation,saidthatthecontemporaryworldis
subjecttorapidchangeandisgrapplingwithissuesofgreatimportanceforthelifeoffaith.
Dealingwiththeseissuesrequiresstrengthofbodyandsoul,PopeBenedictsaid.IaskPope
Francis,inlightofwhathehasjusttoldme:Whatdoesthechurchneedmostatthishistoric
moment?Doweneedreforms?Whatareyourwishesforthechurchinthecomingyears?
Whatkindofchurchdoyoudreamof?

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PopeFrancis,pickingupontheintroductionofmyquestion,beginsbyshowinggreat
affectionandimmenserespectforhispredecessor:PopeBenedicthasdoneanactof
holiness,greatness,humility.HeisamanofGod.

Iseeclearly,thepopecontinues,thatthethingthechurchneedsmosttodayistheability
tohealwoundsandtowarmtheheartsofthefaithfulitneedsnearness,proximity.Iseethe
churchasafieldhospitalafterbattle.Itisuselesstoaskaseriouslyinjuredpersonifhehas
highcholesterolandaboutthelevelofhisbloodsugars!Youhavetohealhiswounds.Then
wecantalkabouteverythingelse.Healthewounds,healthewounds....Andyouhavetostart
fromthegroundup.

Thechurchsometimeshaslockeditselfupinsmallthings,insmallmindedrules.Themost
importantthingisthefirstproclamation:JesusChristhassavedyou.Andtheministersof
thechurchmustbeministersofmercyaboveall.Theconfessor,forexample,isalwaysin
dangerofbeingeithertoomuchofarigoristortoolax.Neitherismerciful,becauseneither
ofthemreallytakesresponsibilityfortheperson.Therigoristwasheshishandssothathe
leavesittothecommandment.Thelooseministerwasheshishandsbysimplysaying,Thisis
notasinorsomethinglikethat.Inpastoralministrywemustaccompanypeople,andwe
musthealtheirwounds.

HowarewetreatingthepeopleofGod?Idreamofachurchthatisamotherand
shepherdess.Thechurchsministersmustbemerciful,takeresponsibilityforthepeopleand
accompanythemlikethegoodSamaritan,whowashes,cleansandraisesuphisneighbor.
ThisispureGospel.Godisgreaterthansin.Thestructuralandorganizationalreformsare
secondarythatis,theycomeafterward.Thefirstreformmustbetheattitude.Theministers
oftheGospelmustbepeoplewhocanwarmtheheartsofthepeople,whowalkthroughthe
darknightwiththem,whoknowhowtodialogueandtodescendthemselvesintotheir
peoplesnight,intothedarkness,butwithoutgettinglost.ThepeopleofGodwantpastors,
notclergyactinglikebureaucratsorgovernmentofficials.Thebishops,particularly,mustbe
abletosupportthemovementsofGodamongtheirpeoplewithpatience,sothatnooneis
leftbehind.Buttheymustalsobeabletoaccompanytheflockthathasaflairforfindingnew
paths.

Insteadofbeingjustachurchthatwelcomesandreceivesbykeepingthedoorsopen,letus
tryalsotobeachurchthatfindsnewroads,thatisabletostepoutsideitselfandgotothose
whodonotattendMass,tothosewhohavequitorareindifferent.Theoneswhoquit
sometimesdoitforreasonsthat,ifproperlyunderstoodandassessed,canleadtoareturn.
Butthattakesaudacityandcourage.

Itakeinwhatthepopeissaying,andImentionthatthereareChristianswholivein
situationsthatfromthepointofviewofthechurchareirregularorsomewhatcomplex,
Christiansthat,inonewayoranother,livewithopenwounds.Imentionthedivorcedand

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remarried,samesexcouplesandotherdifficultsituations.Whatkindofpastoralworkcan
wedointhesecases?Whatkindsoftoolscanweuse?Thepopesignalsthatheunderstands
whatImeanandheresponds:

WeneedtoproclaimtheGospeloneverystreetcorner,thepopesays,preachingthegood
newsofthekingdomandhealing,evenwithourpreaching,everykindofdiseaseandwound.
InBuenosAiresIusedtoreceivelettersfromhomosexualpersonswhoaresocially
woundedbecausetheytellmethattheyfeellikethechurchhasalwayscondemnedthem.
Butthechurchdoesnotwanttodothis.DuringthereturnflightfromRiodeJaneiroIsaid
thatifahomosexualpersonisofgoodwillandisinsearchofGod,Iamnoonetojudge.By
sayingthis,Isaidwhatthecatechismsays.Religionhastherighttoexpressitsopinioninthe
serviceofthepeople,butGodincreationhassetusfree:itisnotpossibletointerfere
spirituallyinthelifeofaperson.

Apersononceaskedme,inaprovocativemanner,ifIapprovedofhomosexuality.Ireplied
withanotherquestion:Tellme:whenGodlooksatagayperson,doesheendorsethe
existenceofthispersonwithlove,orrejectandcondemnthisperson?Wemustalways
considertheperson.Hereweenterintothemysteryofthehumanbeing.Inlife,God
accompaniespersons,andwemustaccompanythem,startingfromtheirsituation.Itis
necessarytoaccompanythemwithmercy.Whenthathappens,theHolySpiritinspiresthe
priesttosaytherightthing.

Thisisalsothegreatbenefitofconfessionasasacrament:evaluatingcasebycaseand
discerningwhatisthebestthingtodoforapersonwhoseeksGodandgrace.The
confessionalisnotatorturechamber,buttheplaceinwhichtheLordsmercymotivatesus
todobetter.Ialsoconsiderthesituationofawomanwithafailedmarriageinherpastand
whoalsohadanabortion.Thenthiswomanremarries,andsheisnowhappyandhasfive
children.Thatabortioninherpastweighsheavilyonherconscienceandshesincerely
regretsit.ShewouldliketomoveforwardinherChristianlife.Whatistheconfessortodo?

Wecannotinsistonlyonissuesrelatedtoabortion,gaymarriageandtheuseof
contraceptivemethods.Thisisnotpossible.Ihavenotspokenmuchaboutthesethings,and
Iwasreprimandedforthat.Butwhenwespeakabouttheseissues,wehavetotalkabout
theminacontext.Theteachingofthechurch,forthatmatter,isclearandIamasonofthe
church,butitisnotnecessarytotalkabouttheseissuesallthetime.

Thedogmaticandmoralteachingsofthechurcharenotallequivalent.Thechurchs
pastoralministrycannotbeobsessedwiththetransmissionofadisjointedmultitudeof
doctrinestobeimposedinsistently.Proclamationinamissionarystylefocusesonthe
essentials,onthenecessarythings:thisisalsowhatfascinatesandattractsmore,what
makestheheartburn,asitdidforthedisciplesatEmmaus.Wehavetofindanewbalance
otherwiseeventhemoraledificeofthechurchislikelytofalllikeahouseofcards,losingthe

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freshnessandfragranceoftheGospel.TheproposaloftheGospelmustbemoresimple,
profound,radiant.Itisfromthispropositionthatthemoralconsequencesthenflow.

Isaythisalsothinkingaboutthepreachingandcontentofourpreaching.Abeautiful
homily,agenuinesermonmustbeginwiththefirstproclamation,withtheproclamationof
salvation.Thereisnothingmoresolid,deepandsurethanthisproclamation.Thenyouhave
todocatechesis.Thenyoucandrawevenamoralconsequence.Buttheproclamationofthe
savingloveofGodcomesbeforemoralandreligiousimperatives.Todaysometimesitseems
thattheoppositeorderisprevailing.Thehomilyisthetouchstonetomeasurethepastors
proximityandabilitytomeethispeople,becausethosewhopreachmustrecognizetheheart
oftheircommunityandmustbeabletoseewherethedesireforGodislivelyandardent.The
messageoftheGospel,therefore,isnottobereducedtosomeaspectsthat,although
relevant,ontheirowndonotshowtheheartofthemessageofJesusChrist.

AReligiousOrderPope

PopeFrancisisthefirstpontifffromareligiousordersincetheCamaldolesemonkGregory
XVI,whowaselectedin1831.ThusIask:Whatisthespecificplaceofreligiousmenand
womeninthechurchoftoday?

Religiousmenandwomenareprophets,saysthepope.Theyarethosewhohavechosena
followingofJesusthatimitateshislifeinobediencetotheFather,poverty,communitylife
andchastity.Inthissense,thevowscannotendupbeingcaricaturesotherwise,forexample,
communitylifebecomeshell,andchastitybecomesawayoflifeforunfruitfulbachelors.The
vowofchastitymustbeavowoffruitfulness.Inthechurch,thereligiousarecalledtobe
prophetsinparticularbydemonstratinghowJesuslivedonthisearth,andtoproclaimhow
thekingdomofGodwillbeinitsperfection.Areligiousmustnevergiveupprophecy.This
doesnotmeanopposingthehierarchicalpartofthechurch,althoughthepropheticfunction
andthehierarchicalstructuredonotcoincide.Iamtalkingaboutaproposalthatisalways
positive,butitshouldnotcausetimidity.Letusthinkaboutwhatsomanygreatsaints,
monksandreligiousmenandwomenhavedone,fromSt.AnthonytheAbbotonward.Being
prophetsmaysometimesimplymakingwaves.Idonotknowhowtoputit....Prophecy
makesnoise,uproar,somesayamess.Butinreality,thecharismofreligiouspeopleislike
yeast:prophecyannouncesthespiritoftheGospel.

TheRomanCuria,Collegiality,Ecumenism

Followinguponhisreferencetothehierarchy,atthispointIaskthepope:Whatdoyou
thinkabouttheRomandicasteries[thevariousdepartmentsthatassistthepopeinhis
mission]?

ThedicasteriesoftheRomanCuriaareattheserviceofthepopeandthebishops,hesays.

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Theymusthelpboththeparticularchurchesandthebishopsconferences.Theyare
instrumentsofhelp.Insomecases,however,whentheyarenotfunctioningwell,theyrun
theriskofbecominginstitutionsofcensorship.Itisamazingtoseethedenunciationsfor
lackoforthodoxythatcometoRome.Ithinkthecasesshouldbeinvestigatedbythelocal
bishopsconferences,whichcangetvaluableassistancefromRome.Thesecases,infact,are
muchbetterdealtwithlocally.TheRomancongregationsaremediatorstheyarenot
middlemenormanagers.

OnJune29,duringtheceremonyoftheblessingandimpositionofthepalliumon34
metropolitanarchbishops,PopeFrancisspokeaboutthepathofcollegialityastheroad
thatcanleadthechurchtogrowinharmonywiththeserviceofprimacy.SoIask:How
canwereconcileinharmonyPetrineprimacyandcollegiality?Whichroadsarefeasiblealso
fromanecumenicalperspective?

Thepoperesponds,Wemustwalktogether:thepeople,thebishopsandthepope.
Synodalityshouldbelivedatvariouslevels.Maybeitistimetochangethemethodsofthe
SynodofBishops,becauseitseemstomethatthecurrentmethodisnotdynamic.Thiswill
alsohaveecumenicalvalue,especiallywithourOrthodoxbrethren.Fromthemwecanlearn
moreaboutthemeaningofepiscopalcollegialityandthetraditionofsynodality.Thejoint
effortofreflection,lookingathowthechurchwasgovernedintheearlycenturies,beforethe
breakupbetweenEastandWest,willbearfruitinduetime.Inecumenicalrelationsitis
importantnotonlytoknoweachotherbetter,butalsotorecognizewhattheSpirithassown
intheotherasagiftforus.Iwanttocontinuethediscussionthatwasbegunin2007bythe
joint[CatholicOrthodox]commissiononhowtoexercisethePetrineprimacy,whichledto
thesigningoftheRavennaDocument.Wemustcontinueonthispath.

IaskhowPopeFrancisenvisionsthefutureunityofthechurchinlightofthisresponse.He
answers:Wemustwalkunitedwithourdifferences:thereisnootherwaytobecomeone.
ThisisthewayofJesus.

WomenintheLifeoftheChurch

Andwhatabouttheroleofwomeninthechurch?Thepopehasmadereferencetothisissue
onseveraloccasions.Inaninterviewhehadaffirmedthatthefemininepresenceinthe
churchhasnotbeenabletosufficientlyemerge:thetemptationofmalechauvinismhasnot
leftroomtogivevisibilitytotherolethatwomendeserveinthecommunity.Hetookupthis
questionagainduringhisreturntripfromRiodeJainero,assertingthataprofoundtheology
ofwomenhasnotyetbeenelaborated.So,Iask:Whatshouldbetheroleofwomeninthe
church?Whatcanbedonetomaketheirrolemorevisibletoday?

Heanswers:Itisnecessarytobroadentheopportunitiesforastrongerpresenceofwomen
inthechurch.Iamwaryofasolutionthatcanbereducedtoakindoffemalemachismo,

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becauseawomanhasadifferentmakeupthanaman.ButwhatIhearabouttheroleof
womenisofteninspiredbyanideologyofmachismo.Womenareaskingdeepquestionsthat
mustbeaddressed.Thechurchcannotbeherselfwithoutthewomanandherrole.The
womanisessentialforthechurch.Mary,awoman,ismoreimportantthanthebishops.Isay
thisbecausewemustnotconfusethefunctionwiththedignity.Wemusttherefore
investigatefurthertheroleofwomeninthechurch.Wehavetoworkhardertodevelopa
profoundtheologyofthewoman.Onlybymakingthisstepwillitbepossibletobetterreflect
ontheirfunctionwithinthechurch.Thefemininegeniusisneededwhereverwemake
importantdecisions.Thechallengetodayisthis:tothinkaboutthespecificplaceofwomen
alsointhoseplaceswheretheauthorityofthechurchisexercisedforvariousareasofthe
church.

TheSecondVaticanCouncil

WhatdidtheSecondVaticanCouncilaccomplish?Iask.Whatdoesitmean?Inlightof
hispreviousaffirmations,Iimaginethathewilldeliveralongandarticulateresponse.
InsteadIgettheimpressionthatthepopesimplyconsidersthecouncilaneventthatisnot
upfordebateandthat,asiftostressitsfundamentalimportance,isnotworthdiscussingat
toogreatalength.

VaticanIIwasarereadingoftheGospelinlightofcontemporaryculture,saysthepope.
VaticanIIproducedarenewalmovementthatsimplycomesfromthesameGospel.Itsfruits
areenormous.Justrecalltheliturgy.Theworkofliturgicalreformhasbeenaservicetothe
peopleasarereadingoftheGospelfromaconcretehistoricalsituation.Yes,thereare
hermeneuticsofcontinuityanddiscontinuity,butonethingisclear:thedynamicofreading
theGospel,actualizingitsmessagefortodaywhichwastypicalofVaticanIIisabsolutely
irreversible.Thenthereareparticularissues,liketheliturgyaccordingtotheVetusOrdo.I
thinkthedecisionofPopeBenedict[hisdecisionofJuly7,2007,toallowawideruseofthe
TridentineMass]wasprudentandmotivatedbythedesiretohelppeoplewhohavethis
sensitivity.Whatisworrying,though,istheriskoftheideologizationoftheVetusOrdo,its
exploitation.

ToSeekandFindGodinAllThings

PopeFranciswordsweighheavilyuponaddressingthechallengesoftoday.Yearsagohehad
writtenthatinordertoseerealityonemustlookwithagazeoffaith.Otherwiseoneseesonly
smallpiecesofafragmentedreality.Thisisalsooneofthethemesoftheencyclical"Lumen
Fidei."IamalsothinkingofafewpassagesfromPopeFrancisspeechesduringtheWorld
YouthDayinRiodeJainero.Iquotethemtohim:Godisrealifheshowshimselfinthehere
andnow.Godiseverywhere.ThesearephrasesthatechotheIgnatianexpressiontoseek
andfindGodinallthings.ThereforeIask,YourHoliness,howdoesoneseekandfindGod

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inallthings?

WhatIsaidinRioreferredtothetimeinwhichweseekGod,heanswers.Infact,thereis
atemptationtoseekGodinthepastorinapossiblefuture.Godiscertainlyinthepast
becausewecanseethefootprints.AndGodisalsointhefutureasapromise.Butthe
concreteGod,sotospeak,istoday.Forthisreason,complainingneverhelpsusfindGod.
Thecomplaintsoftodayabouthowbarbarictheworldisthesecomplaintssometimesend
upgivingbirthwithinthechurchtodesirestoestablishorderinthesenseofpure
conservation,asadefense.No:Godistobeencounteredintheworldoftoday.

Godmanifestshimselfinhistoricalrevelation,inhistory.Timeinitiatesprocesses,and
spacecrystallizesthem.Godisinhistory,intheprocesses.

Wemustnotfocusonoccupyingthespaceswherepowerisexercised,butratheronstarting
longrunhistoricalprocesses.Wemustinitiateprocessesratherthanoccupyspaces.God
manifestshimselfintimeandispresentintheprocessesofhistory.Thisgivespriorityto
actionsthatgivebirthtonewhistoricaldynamics.Anditrequirespatience,waiting.

FindingGodinallthingsisnotanempiricaleureka.WhenwedesiretoencounterGod,we
wouldliketoverifyhimimmediatelybyanempiricalmethod.ButyoucannotmeetGodthis
way.GodisfoundinthegentlebreezeperceivedbyElijah.ThesensesthatfindGodarethe
onesSt.Ignatiuscalledspiritualsenses.Ignatiusasksustoopenourspiritualsensitivityto
encounterGodbeyondapurelyempiricalapproach.Acontemplativeattitudeisnecessary:it
isthefeelingthatyouaremovingalongthegoodpathofunderstandingandaffectiontoward
thingsandsituations.Profoundpeace,spiritualconsolation,loveofGodandloveofall
thingsinGodthisisthesignthatyouareonthisrightpath.

CertitudeandMistakes

Iask,SoiftheencounterwithGodisnotanempiricaleureka,andifitisajourneythat
seeswiththeeyesofhistory,thenwecanalsomakemistakes?

Thepopereplies:Yes,inthisquesttoseekandfindGodinallthingsthereisstillanareaof
uncertainty.Theremustbe.IfapersonsaysthathemetGodwithtotalcertaintyandisnot
touchedbyamarginofuncertainty,thenthisisnotgood.Forme,thisisanimportantkey.If
onehastheanswerstoallthequestionsthatistheproofthatGodisnotwithhim.Itmeans
thatheisafalseprophetusingreligionforhimself.ThegreatleadersofthepeopleofGod,
likeMoses,havealwaysleftroomfordoubt.YoumustleaveroomfortheLord,notforour
certaintieswemustbehumble.Uncertaintyisineverytruediscernmentthatisopento
findingconfirmationinspiritualconsolation.

TheriskinseekingandfindingGodinallthings,then,isthewillingnesstoexplaintoo
much,tosaywithhumancertaintyandarrogance:Godishere.Wewillfindonlyagodthat
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fitsourmeasure.ThecorrectattitudeisthatofSt.Augustine:seekGodtofindhim,andfind
GodtokeepsearchingforGodforever.Oftenweseekasifwewereblind,asoneoftenreads
intheBible.Andthisistheexperienceofthegreatfathersofthefaith,whoareourmodels.
WehavetorereadtheLettertotheHebrews,Chapter11.Abrahamleaveshishomewithout
knowingwherehewasgoing,byfaith.Allofourancestorsinthefaithdiedseeingthegood
thatwaspromised,butfromadistance....Ourlifeisnotgiventouslikeanoperalibretto,in
whichalliswrittendownbutitmeansgoing,walking,doing,searching,seeing....Wemust
enterintotheadventureofthequestformeetingGodwemustletGodsearchandencounter
us.

BecauseGodisfirstGodisalwaysfirstandmakesthefirstmove.Godisabitlikethe
almondflowerofyourSicily,Antonio,whichalwaysbloomsfirst.WereaditintheProphets.
Godisencounteredwalking,alongthepath.Atthisjuncture,someonemightsaythatthisis
relativism.Isitrelativism?Yes,ifitismisunderstoodasakindofindistinctpantheism.Itis
notrelativismifitisunderstoodinthebiblicalsense,thatGodisalwaysasurprise,soyou
neverknowwhereandhowyouwillfindhim.Youarenotsettingthetimeandplaceofthe
encounterwithhim.Youmust,therefore,discerntheencounter.Discernmentisessential.

IftheChristianisarestorationist,alegalist,ifhewantseverythingclearandsafe,thenhe
willfindnothing.Traditionandmemoryofthepastmusthelpustohavethecouragetoopen
upnewareastoGod.Thosewhotodayalwayslookfordisciplinariansolutions,thosewho
longforanexaggerateddoctrinalsecurity,thosewhostubbornlytrytorecoverapastthat
nolongerexists
theyhaveastaticandinwarddirectedviewofthings.Inthisway,faith
becomesanideologyamongotherideologies.Ihaveadogmaticcertainty:Godisinevery
personslife.Godisineveryoneslife.Evenifthelifeofapersonhasbeenadisaster,evenif
itisdestroyedbyvices,drugsoranythingelseGodisinthispersonslife.Youcan,youmust
trytoseekGodineveryhumanlife.Althoughthelifeofapersonisalandfullofthornsand
weeds,thereisalwaysaspaceinwhichthegoodseedcangrow.YouhavetotrustGod.

MustWeBeOptimistic?

Thepopeswordsremindmeofsomeofhispastreflections,inwhichasacardinalhewrote
thatGodisalreadylivinginthecity,inthemidstofallandunitedtoeach.Itisanotherway,
inmyopinion,tosaywhatSt.IgnatiuswroteintheSpiritualExercises,thatGodlaborsand
worksinourworld.SoIask:Dowehavetobeoptimistic?Whatarethesignsofhopein
todaysworld?HowcanIbeoptimisticinaworldincrisis?

Idonotliketousethewordoptimismbecausethatisaboutapsychologicalattitude,the
popesays.Iliketousethewordhopeinstead,accordingtowhatwereadintheLettertothe
Hebrews,Chapter11,thatImentionedbefore.Thefathersofthefaithkeptwalking,facing
difficulties.Andhopedoesnotdisappoint,aswereadintheLettertotheRomans.Think
insteadofthefirstriddleofPuccinisoperaTurandot,thepopesuggests.
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AtthatmomentIrecalledmoreorlessbyhearttheversesoftheriddleoftheprincessinthat
opera,towhichthesolutionishope:Inthegloomynightfliesaniridescentghost./Itrises
andopensitswings/ontheinfiniteblackhumanity./Thewholeworldinvokesit/andthe
wholeworldimploresit./Buttheghostdisappearswiththedawn/toberebornintheheart./
Andeverynightitisborn/andeverydayitdies!Theseareversesthatrevealthedesirefora
hope.Yetherethathopeisaniridescentghostthatdisappearswiththedawn.

See,saysPopeFrancis,Christianhopeisnotaghostanditdoesnotdeceive.Itisa
theologicalvirtueandtherefore,ultimately,agiftfromGodthatcannotbereducedto
optimism,whichisonlyhuman.GoddoesnotmisleadhopeGodcannotdenyhimself.God
isallpromise.

ArtandCreativity

IamstruckbythereferencethepopejustmadetoPuccinisTurandotwhilespeakingofthe
mysteryofhope.Iwouldliketounderstandbetterhisartisticandliteraryreferences.I
remindhimthatin2006hesaidthatgreatartistsknowhowtopresentthetragicandpainful
realitiesoflifewithbeauty.SoIaskwhoaretheartistsandwritersheprefers,andifthey
havesomethingincommon.

Ihavereallylovedadiversearrayofauthors.IloveverymuchDostoevskyandHlderlin.I
rememberHlderlinforthatpoemwrittenforthebirthdayofhisgrandmotherthatisvery
beautifulandwasspirituallyveryenrichingforme.Thepoemendswiththeverse,Maythe
manholdfasttowhatthechildhaspromised.IwasalsoimpressedbecauseIlovedmy
grandmotherRosa,andinthatpoemHlderlincompareshisgrandmothertotheVirgin
Mary,whogavebirthtoJesus,thefriendoftheearthwhodidnotconsideranybodya
foreigner.

IhavereadTheBetrothed,byAlessandroManzoni,threetimes,andIhaveitnowonmy
tablebecauseIwanttoreaditagain.Manzonigavemesomuch.WhenIwasachild,my
grandmothertaughtmebyheartthebeginningofTheBetrothed:ThatbranchofLakeComo
thatturnsofftothesouthbetweentwounbrokenchainsofmountains....IalsolikedGerard
ManleyHopkinsverymuch.

Amongthegreatpainters,IadmireCaravaggiohispaintingsspeaktome.ButalsoChagall,
withhisWhiteCrucifixion.AmongmusiciansIloveMozart,ofcourse.TheEtincarnatus
estfromhisMassinCminorismatchlessitliftsyoutoGod!IloveMozartperformedby
ClaraHaskil.Mozartfulfillsme.ButIcannotthinkabouthismusicIhavetolistentoit.I
likelisteningtoBeethoven,butinaPrometheanway,andthemostPrometheaninterpreter
formeisFurtwngler.AndthenBachsPassions.ThepiecebyBachthatIlovesomuchisthe
ErbarmeDich,thetearsofPeterintheSt.MatthewPassion.Sublime.Then,atadifferent
level,notintimateinthesameway,IloveWagner.Iliketolistentohim,butnotallthetime.

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TheperformanceofWagnersRingbyFurtwngleratLaScalainMilanin1950isformethe
best.ButalsotheParsifalbyKnappertsbuschin1962.

Weshouldalsotalkaboutthecinema.LaStrada,byFellini,isthemoviethatperhapsI
lovedthemost.Iidentifywiththismovie,inwhichthereisanimplicitreferencetoSt.
Francis.IalsobelievethatIwatchedalloftheItalianmovieswithAnnaMagnaniandAldo
FabriziwhenIwasbetween10and12yearsold.AnotherfilmthatIlovedisRome,Open
City.Iowemyfilmcultureespeciallytomyparentswhousedtotakeustothemoviesquite
often.

Anyway,ingeneralIlovetragicartists,especiallyclassicalones.Thereisanicedefinition
thatCervantesputsonthelipsofthebachelorCarrascotopraisethestoryofDonQuixote:
Childrenhaveitintheirhands,youngpeoplereadit,adultsunderstandit,theelderlypraise
it.Formethiscanbeagooddefinitionoftheclassics.

IrealizethatIhavebecomeutterlyengrossedintheseartisticreferencesofhis.Idesireto
enterintohislifebypassingthroughthedoorofhisartisticchoices.Iimagineitwouldbea
longjourney,butcertainlyajourneyworthtaking.Itwouldalsoincludecinema,fromItalian
neorealismtoBabettesFeast.Otherauthorsandotherworksnowcometomymind,
authorsandworksthathehasmentionedinotheroccasions,alsominor,orlessfamous,or
evenlocalones:fromtheepicpoemMartnFierrobyJosHernandeztothepoetryofNino
Costa,toTheGreatExodusbyLuigiOrsenigo.IalsothinkofJosephMalgueandJosMara
Pemn.ClearlyIthinkoffamouswriterslikeDanteandBorges,butalsooftheArgentine
writerLeopoldoMarechal,theauthorofthenovelsAdnBuenosayres,TheBanquetof
SeveroArcngeloandMegafnolaguerra.

IthinkespeciallyaboutBorges,awriterwithwhomFatherBergogliohaddirectcontactin
hisearlieryears.Backthenhewasa28yearoldteacherofliteratureattheColegiodela
ImmaculadaConcepcininSantaF,Argentina.FatherBergogliotaughtstudentsduring
theirlasttwoyearsofsecondaryschoolandencouragedhispupilstotakeupcreativewriting.
WhenIwasyoungerItoohadanexperiencejustlikehis.Then,ItaughtattheIstituto
MassimoofRome,whereIalsofoundedthecreativeculturalprojectknownas
BombaCarta.Itellhimthestory.FinallyIaskthepopetotellmeabouthisownexperience
withteaching.

Itwasabitrisky,heanswers.IhadtomakesurethatmystudentsreadElCid.Butthe
boysdidnotlikeit.TheywantedtoreadGarciaLorca.ThenIdecidedthattheywouldstudy
ElCidathomeandthatinclassIwouldteachtheauthorstheboyslikedthemost.Ofcourse,
youngpeoplewantedtoreadmoreracyliteraryworks,likethecontemporaryLaCasada
InfielorclassicslikeLaCelestina,byFernandodeRojas.Butbyreadingthesethingsthey
acquiredatasteinliterature,poetry,andwewentontootherauthors.Andthatwasformea
greatexperience.Icompletedtheprogram,butinanunstructuredwaythatis,notordered

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accordingtowhatweexpectedinthebeginning,butinanorderthatcamenaturallyby
readingtheseauthors.Andthismodebefittedme:Ididnotliketohavearigidschedule,but
ratherIlikedtoknowwherewehadtogowiththereadings,witharoughsenseofwherewe
wereheaded.ThenIalsostartedtogetthemtowrite.IntheendIdecidedtosendBorges
twostorieswrittenbymyboys.Iknewhissecretary,whohadbeenmypianoteacher.And
Borgeslikedthosestoriesverymuch.Andthenhesetouttowritetheintroductiontoa
collectionofthesewritings.

Then,HolyFather,creativityisimportantforthelifeofaperson?Iask.Helaughsand
replies:ForaJesuititisextremelyimportant!AJesuitmustbecreative.

FrontiersandLaboratories

Creativity,therefore,itisimportantforaJesuit.PopeFrancis,duringavisitwiththeJesuit
priestsandotherstaffmembersofLaCiviltCattolica,hadarticulatedatriadofimportant
characteristicsrelevanttotheculturalinitiativesoftheJesuits.Iturnmythoughtstothat
day,June14,2013.Irecallthatbackthen,inaconversationjustbeforethemeetingwiththe
entiregroup,thepopehadalreadyinformedmeaboutthistriad:dialogue,discernment,
frontier.Andheinsistedparticularlyonthelastpoint,quotingPopePaulVI.Inawellknown
speech,PaulVIhadspokendirectlyabouttheJesuits:Whereverinthechurcheveninthe
mostdifficultandextremefields,inthecrossroadsofideologies,inthesocialtrenchesthere
hasbeenandisnowconversationbetweenthedeepestdesiresofhumanbeingsandthe
perennialmessageoftheGospel,Jesuitshavebeenandarethere.

IaskPopeFrancisforafurtherexplanation:Youaskedustobecarefulnottofallintothe
temptationtotamethefrontiers:onemustgoouttothefrontiers,notbringthefrontiers
homeinordertopaintthemabitartificiallyandtamethem.Whatwereyoureferringto?
Whatexactlydidyouwishtotellus?Thisinterview,asyouknow,wasorganizedbyagroup
ofmagazinesdirectedbytheSocietyofJesus:whatinvitationdoyouwishtoextendtothem?
Whatshouldtheirprioritiesbe?

ThethreekeywordsthatIcommendedtoLaCiviltCattolicacanbeextendedtoallthe
journalsoftheSociety,perhapswithdifferentemphasesaccordingtotheirnaturesandtheir
objectives.WhenIinsistonthefrontier,Iamreferringinaparticularwaytotheneedfor
thosewhoworkintheworldofculturetobeinsertedintothecontextinwhichtheyoperate
andonwhichtheyreflect.Thereisalwaysthelurkingdangeroflivinginalaboratory.Oursis
notalabfaith,butajourneyfaith,ahistoricalfaith.Godhasrevealedhimselfashistory,
notasacompendiumofabstracttruths.Iamafraidoflaboratoriesbecauseinthelaboratory
youtaketheproblemsandthenyoubringthemhometotamethem,topaintthem
artificially,outoftheircontext.Youcannotbringhomethefrontier,butyouhavetoliveon
theborderandbeaudacious.

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Iaskforexamplesfromhispersonalexperience.

Whenitcomestosocialissues,itisonethingtohaveameetingtostudytheproblemof
drugsinaslumneighborhoodandquiteanotherthingtogothere,livethereandunderstand
theproblemfromtheinsideandstudyit.ThereisabrilliantletterbyFatherArrupetothe
CentersforSocialResearchandActiononpoverty,inwhichhesaysclearlythatonecannot
speakofpovertyifonedoesnotexperiencepoverty,withadirectconnectiontotheplacesin
whichthereispoverty.Thewordinsertionisdangerousbecausesomereligioushavetakenit
asafad,anddisastershaveoccurredbecauseofalackofdiscernment.Butitistruly
important.

Thefrontiersaremany.Letusthinkofthereligioussisterslivinginhospitals.Theyliveon
thefrontier.Iamalivebecauseofoneofthem.WhenIwentthroughmylungdiseaseatthe
hospital,thedoctorgavemepenicillinandstreptomycinincertaindoses.Thesisterwhowas
ondutytripledmydosesbecauseshewasdaringlyastutesheknewwhattodobecauseshe
waswithillpeopleallday.Thedoctor,whoreallywasagoodone,livedinhislaboratorythe
sisterlivedonthefrontierandwasindialoguewithiteveryday.Domesticatingthefrontier
meansjusttalkingfromaremotelocation,lockingyourselfupinalaboratory.Laboratories
areuseful,butreflectionforusmustalwaysstartfromexperience.

HumanSelfUnderstanding

Iaskthepopeifandhowthisisalsotrueinthecaseofanotherimportantculturalfrontier,
theanthropologicalchallenge.Theunderstandingofhumanexistencetowhichthechurch
hastraditionallyreferred,aswellasthelanguageinwhichthechurchhasexpressedit,
remainsolidpointsofreferenceandaretheresultofcenturieslongexperienceandwisdom.
However,thehumanbeingstowhomthechurchisspeakingnolongerseemtounderstand
thesenotions,nordotheyconsiderthemsufficient.Ibegintoadvancetheideathatwenow
interpretourselvesinadifferentwaythaninthepast,usingdifferentcategories.Thisisalso
duetothegreatchangesinsociety,aswellasabroaderconceptionofwhatitmeanstobe
human.

Atthispointthepopestandsupandtakesthebreviaryfromhisdesk.ItisinLatin,andis
worndownbycontinueduse.HeopensittotheOfficeoftheReadingsoftheFeriaSexta,
thatisFriday,ofthe27thweek.HereadsapassagetometakenfromtheCommonitrium
PrimumofSt.VincentofLerins:"itatiamchristinaereliginisdogmasequturhasdecet
profctuumleges,utannissclectconsolidtur,dilatturtmpore,sublimturaette"(Thus
eventhedogmaoftheChristianreligionmustproceedfromtheselaws.Itprogresses,
solidifyingwithyears,growingovertime,deepeningwithage.)

Thepopecomments:St.VincentofLerinsmakesacomparisonbetweenthebiological
developmentofmanandthetransmissionfromoneeratoanotherofthedepositoffaith,

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whichgrowsandisstrengthenedwithtime.Here,humanselfunderstandingchangeswith
timeandsoalsohumanconsciousnessdeepens.Letusthinkofwhenslaverywasacceptedor
thedeathpenaltywasallowedwithoutanyproblem.Sowegrowintheunderstandingofthe
truth.Exegetesandtheologianshelpthechurchtomatureinherownjudgment.Eventhe
othersciencesandtheirdevelopmenthelpthechurchinitsgrowthinunderstanding.There
areecclesiasticalrulesandpreceptsthatwereonceeffective,butnowtheyhavelostvalueor
meaning.Theviewofthechurchsteachingasamonolithtodefendwithoutnuanceor
differentunderstandingsiswrong.

Afterall,ineveryageofhistory,humanstrytounderstandandexpressthemselvesbetter.
Sohumanbeingsintimechangethewaytheyperceivethemselves.Itsonethingforaman
whoexpresseshimselfbycarvingtheWingedVictoryofSamothrace,yetanotherfor
Caravaggio,ChagallandyetanotherstillforDal.Eventheformsforexpressingtruthcanbe
multiform,andthisisindeednecessaryforthetransmissionoftheGospelinitstimeless
meaning.

Humansareinsearchofthemselves,and,ofcourse,inthissearchtheycanalsomake
mistakes.Thechurchhasexperiencedtimesofbrilliance,likethatofThomasAquinas.But
thechurchhaslivedalsotimesofdeclineinitsabilitytothink.Forexample,wemustnot
confusethegeniusofThomasAquinaswiththeageofdecadentThomistcommentaries.
Unfortunately,Istudiedphilosophyfromtextbooksthatcamefromdecadentorlargely
bankruptThomism.Inthinkingofthehumanbeing,therefore,thechurchshouldstrivefor
geniusandnotfordecadence.

Whendoesaformulationofthoughtceasetobevalid?Whenitlosessightofthehumanor
evenwhenitisafraidofthehumanordeludedaboutitself.Thedeceivedthoughtcanbe
depictedasUlyssesencounteringthesongoftheSiren,orasTannhuserinanorgy
surroundedbysatyrsandbacchantes,orasParsifal,inthesecondactofWagnersopera,in
thepalaceofKlingsor.Thethinkingofthechurchmustrecovergeniusandbetterunderstand
howhumanbeingsunderstandthemselvestoday,inordertodevelopanddeepenthe
churchsteaching.

Prayer

IaskPopeFrancisabouthispreferredwaytopray.

Ipraythebreviaryeverymorning.Iliketopraywiththepsalms.Then,later,Icelebrate
Mass.IpraytheRosary.WhatIreallypreferisadorationintheevening,evenwhenIget
distractedandthinkofotherthings,orevenfallasleeppraying.Intheeveningthen,between
sevenandeightoclock,IstayinfrontoftheBlessedSacramentforanhourinadoration.But
IpraymentallyevenwhenIamwaitingatthedentistoratothertimesoftheday.

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Prayerformeisalwaysaprayerfullofmemory,ofrecollection,eventhememoryofmyown
historyorwhattheLordhasdoneinhischurchorinaparticularparish.Formeitisthe
memoryofwhichSt.IgnatiusspeaksintheFirstWeekoftheExercisesintheencounterwith
themercifulChristcrucified.AndIaskmyself:WhathaveIdoneforChrist?WhatamI
doingforChrist?WhatshouldIdoforChrist?ItisthememoryofwhichIgnatiusspeaksin
theContemplationforExperiencingDivineLove,whenheasksustorecallthegiftswehave
received.Butaboveall,IalsoknowthattheLordremembersme.Icanforgetabouthim,but
Iknowthathenever,everforgetsme.Memoryhasafundamentalrolefortheheartofa
Jesuit:memoryofgrace,thememorymentionedinDeuteronomy,thememoryofGods
worksthatarethebasisofthecovenantbetweenGodandthepeople.Itisthismemorythat
makesmehissonandthatmakesmeafather,too.

IrealizethatIcouldcontinueonwiththisconversation,butIknowthat,inthewordsofthe
popehimself,Ioughtnotmistreatthelimits.Allinall,wespoketogetherformorethansix
hoursoverthecourseofthreemeetingsonAug.19,23and29,2013.Forthesakeof
continuity,Ihavechosentowriteupourdialogueasonetext,withoutmarkingthestarting
andstoppingpointsofourvarioussessions.Ourtimetogetherwas,intruth,morea
conversationthananinterview,andmyquestionsservedsimplytoguidethediscussionina
generalsense,ratherthanencloseitwithinrigidandpredefinedparameters.Froma
linguisticpointofview,wefrequentlyshiftedbackandforthbetweenSpanishandItalian,
oftenwithoutevennoticing.Therewasnothingmechanicalaboutit,andtheanswerswere
theresultofanextendeddialogueandalineofreasoningthatIhavetriedtorenderhereina
concisemannerandtothebestofmyabilities.

Thisinterviewhasbeenrevisedtoreflectthefollowingcorrection:

Becauseofaproductionerror,asentenceinthisinterviewwasinadvertentlyomittedinthe
printedition(9/30).InthesectiononWomenintheLifeoftheChurch,thebeginningof
PopeFrancisresponseshouldread:Heanswers:Itisnecessarytobroadenthe
opportunitiesforastrongerpresenceofwomeninthechurch.Iamwaryofasolution
that....Thefirstsentencewasaccidentallydeletedduringtheeditingofthesentencethat
followsit.

AntonioSpadaro,S.J.,istheeditorinchiefofLaCiviltCattolica,ajournalpublishedin
RomebytheSocietyofJesussince1850.Thetranslatorswere:MassimoFaggioli,Sarah
ChristopherFaggioli,DominicRobinson,S.J.,PatrickJ.Howell,S.J.,andGriffinOleynick.

SourceURL:http://americamagazine.org/popeinterview

Links:
[1]http://americamagazine.org/tocpast/20130930

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[2]http://americamagazine.org/users/antoniospadarosj
[3]http://www.orbisbooks.com/juliansgospel.html

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