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1 / You have lived abroad a lot (China, Thailand, Kenya, South America …).
Travels could be strong basics of life in which everybody builds its own
foundation. What kind of traveler were you?
Bimini was just a single dirt street through a row of British colonial style
buildings, much more of a third world environment than today. I spent most
of my time with the Bahamian native children far from the yacht as at that
early age I found the elite yacht class boring and thoroughly enjoyed being
with “regular” people who seemed to be caught up in a much different and
less sheltered world than I had ever experienced in my “privileged”
environment.
I again returned to the Bahamas, for one year, when I was offered a studio
and apartment in a small hotel under 15 years of slow construction by one of
my collectors who kept the property under slow construction as a legal
foothold outside of the US. Wonderful experience.
Not long afterwards a collector was visiting my studio with Ralph Helfer
who was one of the originators of the Mount Kenya Safari Club in Kenya,
Africa. He asked if I had been to Africa as he could see African influence in
my work. I replied “no” and he offered a trip to Kenya in exchange for some
paintings. Of course I accepted. We traveled to Kenya with Richard Carlson
and Kathy Regis, my main patrons at the time. I of course took every
opportunity to escape from the group and travel into Nairobi and Mombasa
alone experiencing life and humanity that reminded me so much of the
experiences of my childhood. While visiting a Maasai tribe in Kenya I asked
the chief, Ben Kipeno, to introduce me to Maasai artisans who could
reproduce my abstract work at the time with beadwork and add their own
tribal imagery. Five pieces were produced of beadwork on dried goatskins
and I am told they were quite beautiful. They “disappeared” from
Abercrombie and Kent in Nairobi, who were the shipping agents, when the
work was to be sent to the USA. More stories for another time. (See
attachment “Massai with art”)
My next and most important experiences came as one morning in the late
1980’s I was having breakfast with my friend and collector/patron Richard
Carlson, a quite successful businessman, at his mountain home outside of
Los Angeles. We were discussing how I could sell over three hundred pieces
of art all at one time and change my life as I, through my own naivety, had
grown disenfranchised with the Los Angeles art world as to what I perceived
as no real concern for art other than monetary value. I had asked Richard
about a process to market this amount of work. As he was explaining some
methods he casually asked how much I wanted for the entire body of work.
Without thinking I threw out a figure and he extended his hand and said
“sold”. I shook his hand and we drove back to LA where he removed three
hundred plus pieces of work from my studio and handed me a large amount
of cash. He put the work in storage and shortly afterwards his wife Kathy
Regis, who was the real collector and art historian in the family, fell from a
third story balcony and died. All of this work is still in storage and lost to the
world as Richard has no interest any longer in art or artists of any kind.
This was the beginning of my “real” travels.I had read quite a bit about “the
ring of fire” in Indonesia and had planned a trip to Singapore where I would
board a steamer to Jakarta and wander the eastern shore of Java and
eventually end in Bali. Well the plane to Singapore made an unscheduled
stop in Bangkok where we had a 30 minute layover so I deplaned intending
to catch a flight to Singapore the next day and meet my luggage. It took me
five years to leave Thailand with a new wife and beautiful daughter.
My departure from Thailand was hasty and unwanted as there had been an
attempt to steal my then two year old daughter and sell her into child sex
trafficking. It involved a group of Thai men, including a buddhist monk,
who moved drugs and children through the temple system working as temple
restoration contractors and had asked me to participate in mural painting in
the temples. The offer to paint was a ruse to get closer access to my
daughter. Amer-asian children were the most valuable because of their
“exotic’ appearance. One of the men, the one who had contacted me, had
been identified to me by the US Embassy in Bangkok as a Thai national who
had been in the American Special Forces and worked border patrol between
Laos and Thailand during the Vietnam war era. When the Vietnamese War
ended he had lost his job but continued human and drug trafficking because
of his connections to the border. I confronted him just before our departure
and asked him why he had destroyed our life in Thailand. His response was
a simple “why not”. A truly soulless human.
My next travel experience came in 2007 when I was asked by a friend to join
a crew and paint 250,000 sq. ft. of sky in the Macau venetian Casino under
construction at the time. We worked for eight months on the sky and then I
stayed another two months working on a private mural commission for a
restaurant in the Venetian complex. I in no way equate this stay in Macau
with having lived in China. Macau is the “Las Vegas” of China and in my
opinion has little to do with actually experiencing life in China. I think you
could take Las Vegas and put everyone on methamphetamines and you
would experience Macau.
I left college in the first year of my MFA program wanting to experience the
vastness of life and stop being insulated by this structured college regime
which seemed to me to have no bearing on any form of reality that I had
experienced at that time.
I went to New York City to pursue a career in graphic design and quickly
became an art director in a major publishing company which published
school materials for all levels of education. Disillusioned with the need of
the company for monetary gain over the needs of the students I soon quit. I
then joined a small graphic design firm headed by B. Martin Pedersen. It
was composed of Marty, myself and a young lady who handled reception
and organization. Marty is currently owner, publisher and creative director
of Graphis Inc., the international publishing firm that produces Graphis.
I learned a great deal from Marty, mostly about life and respect.
3 / We can feel in your painting some strong aesthetic issues, which bring to
your compositions a very specific breadth. How do you describe the
narrative themes and concept in your work?
I remember that I used to map out a painting and have a fairly well
developed image in my head that I then tried to reproduce, rarely to my
personal satisfaction. For instance, I had a marvelous, life changing
experience in my late twenties that I wanted to paint but have never
attempted to do. This is certainly is not something I would attempt as
classical realism but more than likely will paint it, or possibly already have,
in a more abstract approach.
I had taken my landlord out to shoot a Whitetail Deer on the property I had
rented from him. He was a New York stockbroker and had come to the his
property countryside to shoot a deer. In my self ill-advised thinking to
ingratiate my self with him I agreed to show him where the deer were. That
morning I put him under a tree 30 yards from myself and told him where the
deer would pass by him as I had been observing them for some time now,
not as a hunter but a lover of life and beauty.
We could hear the deer approaching as they walked through the dry leaves.
In my vision, with each footstep, the forest started to illuminate itself. Light
started to emanate and articulate from within every leaf, blade of grass,
insect and everything in my vision. The world for myself transferred itself
into a magnificent vision of light glowing from within. Something I will
never forget. Then the deer appeared, a beautiful large buck glowing from
within just as everything else in my vision. I sat transfixed with tears
streaming down my face. Not tears of regret but tears of the shear beauty I
was experiencing. I was not thinking or analyzing. I had become a part of
this incredible scene. Thought and language were, and still are, insignificant
to describe the moment.
Then the explosion of the rifle jerked everything back into the shared
moment of reality that I had left. The deer made a mighty leap in the air and
crashed to the ground dead.
It was not long after this experience that I realized I was not the creator of
my paintings but merely a tool or conduit. A brush, if you will, for an artist
far greater than myself. It will be wonderful someday to meet or even
understand who this artist is. Maybe I never will.
When I then moved to Los Angeles I first encountered graffiti and yes I was
heavily influenced by it. The tagging and layering over existing pieces
seemed so similar to what I was beginning to do in my own work. The
shapes and forms I could see from a distance and the immediacy and
strength in the work when viewed from a distance all influenced me. The
activity of the city in it’s confusion also attracted me. The lack of regard for
property reminded me of my own lack of regard for existing and past art
“movements”. The attempt to make a statement by people not even aware of
making statements also attracted me.
When it comes to the matter of gesture and movement, let me ask a question,
“Isn’t everything always moving and in flux?’. “Isn’t a photograph a static
abstract representation taken in the moment and not really capturing the
movement of before and after the shutter clicks?”. You might argue film
overrides this but I disagree. Doesn’t a film begin and end. Something the
moment never does."
5 / When you started painting, what were your artistic goals, and what
are they now?
"I suppose when I first started to paint my goals were like most young
artists. I dreamed of showing in the top blue chip art galleries and museums.
Another goal was that I could become “known” enough to have a voice and
hopefully point out to people the inconsistencies in our human construct that
I felt were important for change. I had no intention to fit into any existing art
movement so it’s humorous to me that I am now labeled as a pop-surrealist
as that term didn’t even exist when I was young. When I look back at some
of my early work it could easily have fallen into that category.
Beyond that my goals were to just explore reality in all of it’s dimensions.
It seems painters don’t get to retire. I also have no intention of ever retiring.
Where my life’s work finally fits in will be up to posterity."
6 / You heard many times this question, my sincere apologies: you stand
in a specific figurative field. In which kind of “art movement” or “art
family” the art critics usually try to identify your work? Lowbrow?
Surreal Pop? Neo Kitsch?
"I have never really labeled myself as in any art movement. I have simply
called myself a “painter”. I have always felt uncomfortable calling myself an
artist. I feel the term “artist” is something that should be bestowed upon
someone as a result of the work they produce, whether it be in any of the
many disciplines of art.
I am fascinated at the labels that are being applied to my art now, “outsider,
pop-surrealist, first generation pop surrealist, lowbrow” as I gain some small
amount of recent recognition.
When La Luz contacted me and told me that I was a “first generation pop
surrealist” and when they announced the show mentioned my name in the
same sentence with Robert Williams, Todd Schorr and Mark Ryden, I was
elated and still honored. They said they would like to reintroduce me to LA.
While in LA for the opening of the show I had the privilege of meeting
Robert Williams, the father of pop-surrealism. We had lunch and spent some
time together where I showed him the original of “Adam and Eve, First
Hardon”. He sat in front of it for 15 or 20 minutes looking at and talking
about the painting. At the end he turned to me and said, “You are the most
fucking fearless painter I have ever known”. Needless to say, coming from
Robert, I was very happy and proud as I have always thought his work
“fearless”. Wonderful.
Also in the eighties I became close friends with Josine Ianco Starrells, the
daughter of Marcel Ianco, a name in Paris I am sure you are familiar with. I
loved hearing her stories and seeing the early photos of her childhood in
Paris with the likes of Picasso, Dali, Braque, the Surrealists and the
Dadaists. She would always tell me that I would never be a rich artist as she
considered me a “real” artist and I would never be understood. She also told
me my life as a painter would be difficult because of a facile ability I had.
“You can adapt and paint anything and do whatever you want with paint”
she would say. She would tell me over and over to “get a day job” and that
“a real artist cannot live from his work”. Rather discouraging and hopefully
with the advent of twenty-first century technology and social media she will
be proven wrong. So far she is correct.
Intellectually I suppose people need labels so they are comfortable with
something that may be outside of their own level of perception or beliefs. I
personally feel labels can be detrimental to progress because an artist may
believe one of the labels and stymie his future potential development, feeling
the need to stay in that category.
I don’t see my painting as “post global” in any respect. I think he was using
those terms due to my use of pop cultural imagery from many other global
cultures and time periods, not just from my own personal experiences but
equally from the false narrative of “reality” contained in our
new experiences with virtual reality, AI, and social media thrust upon us by
our “handlers”.
And the “moment “ is the only time in which we can take action. We can’t
act tomorrow or yesterday. The action taken in the current moment can
influence the next moment but action must and can only take place in the
present moment in which we recognize ourselves, thereby creating
memories
In the words of the great composer John Cage, “I have nothing to say…and I
am saying it…and that is poetry…as I need it”.
I only have answers for myself. I have taught in two universities and realize
that no one can teach anyone anything at all without the participation and
desire of the student to learn.
I had a close friend and assistant in the mid 1990’s in Los Angeles named
Eddy Milan. Eddy also lived and worked with me in Montana and was with
me when my daughter passed. I met Eddy when I went to a porno shop to
rent a video tape (pre internet lol). I was in my work clothes having returned
from working on a mural in LA that is over one mile long.
It was not my mural originally but my job was to extend the dead artist’s
work. It paid quite well for six years and did not require daily commitment.
We would contract footage and then be paid for the job, not the time. It
allowed me to enjoy my family and live the amazing experience of watching
my daughter grow.
Back to the porno shop. Eddy asked why I was covered in paint and if I was
an artist. I replied I was working on a mural and asked if he painted. He said
no but that he liked to draw. I asked him to show me some drawings in a
few days when I returned the tape. To my amazement he had his sketch book
there when I returned.
His drawings were scattered it seemed at first but with a beautiful innate
sense of line and form. I asked if he would like to work on a mural and make
three times what he made at this job. Yes was the answer.
Eddy came from the hood in LA and taught me so much about a part of life I
never experienced. Eddy wanted to learn and learn he did. Please take a look
at his work. I think you will enjoy it. www.semigod.com
7 / What are the major points that you are currently exploring in your
art?
"I think I have already answered this question throughout this dialogue but
to reiterate, “reality”, “truth” and “all” that that encompasses. I no longer
feel the need to explore the old masters or other past periods of art except for
reference, enlightenment and enjoyment. I enjoy watching the current and
media oriented expression of art not only from what we call the “art world”
but from simple regional artists, children, the current “blue chip” artists, and
everything that encompasses image making and the expression of human
individuality throughout all the arts, sciences, religions and just plain human
interaction. The internet is an amazing tool for information and
unfortunately mis-information as well. When I was younger I spent hours in
the library and I would carry home 40 or 50 pounds of books regularly from
the library and now…click, click, click. It is really fun to watch this high
tech world evolving and wonder where it will lead.
At times I get labeled a “political” artist. I feel most of my work has nothing
to do with politics even though I am well aware of global politics and it’s
images often appear. A political artist makes statements which he wants
people to understand or accept his views. This is propaganda. Hopefully my
paintings are open ended and make no definitive statements."
8 / Did you already have a book published? Do you have any events
planned in 2018?
La Luz De Jesus Gallery has asked me to show again in LA but we have not
scheduled a time yet. I believe it will be mid 2018. I will probably exhibit
some smaller work as it has been a while since I have explored smaller
canvases.
I have always felt the “scale” relationship between the painting and the
viewer is very important. Smaller works are much more “private” as if
looking at a book or out of a window whereas a large work with some
elements the same size/scale relationship as the viewer invite the viewer into
the canvas and produce an interactive experience between the viewer on a
scale of their own personal reality.
There is another project I am working on and I have sent you the rough draft
of the proposal (see attachment “East is East and West is West”). I hope to
be able to fund it through crowdsourcing such as patreon.com. It is called
East is East and West is West. During my last visit to Indonesia I was
offered a solo exhibition at a very beautiful international gallery, Semarang
Contemporary Art Gallery in Semarang , Indonesia. It is a large three story
gallery and I told the owner it is not possible for me to fill the gallery space
alone. So I suggested to him that we could do a show of myself and some of
the younger Indonesian artists. I would open a studio there for one year and
work on private works as well as collaborative pieces with the Indonesian
artists and we would do a group show of the work at the end of the year.
After the exhibition is finished we would bring it back to the USA, probably
in Los Angeles but certainly New York if we can find a gallery/venue. But it
is not possible for me until I secure the funding."
"I am still living in Montana but would like to relocate to a city where there
is a more active”art world” where I can interact with the other artists,
collectors and galleries. Until I am a bit more secure financially I will not be
able to do this.
I have been in court for 5 years, representing myself, with a lawsuit against
Chase and Citibank after they illegally foreclosed and sold my home and we
had to move out. We have just found a good home and studio for me to
continue painting in. It has taken 2 months to find so I have not been
working during that time and am really feeling the need to be back in the
studio. I usually work anywhere from 8 to 12 hours a day when I am
painting."
By perceiving this external reality as non separate from our “selves” it keeps
us in an unconscious, constant state of agitation and confusion.
I don’t mean the actually perceived individual reality that we all experience
alone but rather the other perceived “reality” that is thrust upon us through
all forms of media dating back to the beginning of image making in the
caves and extending into the newest forms of digital, AI, internet reality .
This other reality encompasses the concept of “history or memory” and the
concept of “future or imagination”. It does not contain the moment, the only
time in which we are able to actually view ourselves or maintain any action
that may or may not relate to the concept of future.
"I have just been through a very difficult period of my life. 5 and 1/2 years
ago my then 17 year old daughter was killed in an auto accident on her way
to school one morning. Five policemen woke me one morning and five
minutes later told me that the most important thing that existed in my life
was gone and that I would never see her again. I died at that moment. For
four years I wondered why I had died but was left on this earth. I sat down,
cried every day, drank beer, smoked marijuana and didn’t get up for those
four years. I destroyed my body. I couldn’t even stand straight. I felt no
compassion or love for children, myself or anyone else. I could not see the
beauty of the wind or the sky or the sunset or sunrise. I felt nothing.
See the attached article from the Missoullian newspaper here in Montana. I
had to write my daughter’s obituary three days after she passed.
(http://missoulian.com/news/local/obituaries/dao-ann-
slagter/article_b7118b5e-63ac-11e1-88ed-001871e3ce6c.html )
Then one day in a moment of clarity I remembered all that I have told you
here today and wondered if the universe would grace me again if I removed
the barriers that I had created through pain and grief.
Oddly a sense of joy came over me and I realized I had learned a great deal
already from her last lesson. Almost instantly I started to see beauty again
and experience joy. I have no other way to explain this. I started to repair my
body and mind. I started painting and laughing again. I am again happy and
an active participant in this amazing opportunity.
About the same time La Luz called and offered me the exhibition in LA.