DIY Knifemaker's Info Center - Heat Treatment Oven Project

8/24/2017 DIY Knifemaker's Info Center: Heat Treatment Oven Project
More Next Blog» velozricardojr@gmail.com Dashboard Sign Out
Contact Wheels
Heat Treatment Oven Project
Product 300*50*25mm (12 inch x 2 inch)
aluminum wheel with diagonal rubber contact
area
Knifemaking Info Pages
Home
Knife Patterns
Heat Treatment Oven Project
Knife Patterns II
Knife Patterns III
After making my 3rd knife and finding it difficult to maintain 1000°C temperatures, sustained and Knife Patterns IV
accurately, I decided that an electric heat treating oven is the way to go. I have no intention (at Knife Patterns V
this time) of spending $1000 on an offtheshelf unit for my "hobby", so I set out to design and Gallery
build one myself. Thank you MacGyver! BG272 DIY 2 x 72" Belt Grinder
BG272 Gallery of Builds
WARNING: I am offering this information for entertainment purposes only. I will not be
BG272 Small Wheel Attachment Set
liable for any use or misuse of this information. This project deals with hazardous voltages,
BG272 DIY Contact Wheel
temperatures and substances that you must understand and work with at your own risk. If
BG272 Adjustable Tool Rest
you are not knowledgeable about electricity consult with a qualified electrician.
BG272 Belt Release Lever
Design Considerations and Procurement Heat Treatment Oven Project
After reviewing the data sheets from Crucible Industries LLC., I am finding the heat treatment Shop Jigs & Fixtures
detail for stainless steels such as 154CM, CPM154, CPM S30 and S35VN and such require Knife Edge Geometry Tips
almost 1100°C (2000°F) for an extended period of time to convert Austenite into Martensite within Beginner's Tool Set
the steel. CPM154 requires 1065°C (1950°F) for up to 1 hour, then quenched. This is effectively DIY Micarta
getting the steel "yellow hot" and a small gas forge doesn't do this without some extra effort. Belt Grinder Motor Guide
Wood Stabilization
One side effect of using an electric oven is that oxygen is sufficiently present to cause scale on
Hidden Bolster Pins
the surface of the steel which has to be cleaned off, thus causing more work to be needed. To
Product Review: Ruixin Pro Angle Knife
thwart the effects of oxygen, a gas blanket, say nitrogen can be used to purge the oxygen from
Sharpener
the oven or a simple foil pouch of stainless steel can be used. The foil acts as a hermetic seal
Fixed Blade Anatomy
that keeps oxygen away from the surface of the steel while it is at carburization temperatures.
DIY Leather Stamps
Bottom line, just under 1100°C for a halfhour with a SS foil wrap. DIY Sharpening Wheel
Insulation Knife Sharpening Example Honesuki
I randomly happened upon an ad on Kijij for "pottery kiln Hydraulic Pin Press
bricks." The seller had multiple boxes of K23 insulating fire Winding a Kanthal A1 Element
bricks from Babcock & Wilcox. I handily picked up a box of Acid Etch Stainless Steel
25 and a few loosies. I love it when this happens! Basic Sheath

Gas Mini Forge
These bricks are soft, lightweight and super easy to cut,
Knifemaker's Documentation
shape, drill, scrape or however we want to work with them.
Basic Filework: Vine
The dust is a hazard, so always wear some safety glasses,
gloves and particle respirator when cutting, sanding or Basic Filework: S Pattern
drilling. Keep a vacuum handy. Poor Man's Etching Power Supply
Drill Press Block #3
WARNING! Do not be tempted to use the harder firebricks as they will suck the heat away from Full Tang Bolster Tutorial
your heating elements and you'll be sadly disappointed with the results. Gallery of Submitted Photos
http://dcknives.blogspot.com/p/electricforge.html 1/34
VFDs: Part 1 About Your Power
People keep asking where to buy insulating fire brick. A type very similar to what used can be VFDs: Part 2 Can You Feed a VFD?
found here on eBay. Insulating Fire Bricks VFDs: Part 3 Three Phase Induction Motor
Size
VFDs: Part 4 SinglePhase Input VFD
I wanted to build a front door kiln with a fairly small volume. I didn't want to build/heat a massive
VFDs: Part 5 Remote Control
pottery kiln to do a few knives. I decided based in the bricks that a interior size of 13" (long) x 9"
PortaBand 725 Conversion
(wide) x 6.5" (high) would suffice for almost any knife I would be heat treating. This shape would
accommodate a blade 15 inches long is place in the oven diagonally. I wanted to be able to reach 12" DIY Disc Sander
in with a glove on and with tongs, so 6.5" seemed high enough. The total volume is just under Making a Saya (Laminate Method)
0.44 cubic feet, so small and relatively easy to heat up with the power I will be using. Gas Forge Build 1: Concepts and Burner
Tube
Electrical Gas Forge Build 2: Gas System
The overall circuit consists of a 120VAC 20A supplied electric heating element. My target total Gas Forge Build 3: Forge Body
resistance is 6.6 ohms and thus the current draw from the heater itself is around 18A at 120VAC. Gas Forge Build 4: Insulation
This works out to about 2160W, which is ideal for a small space like the one I am going for. My Gas Forge Build 5: Intial Burn
survey of off the shelf heat treating ovens from Evenheat range are typically 3500 to 7200 watts Leather Stropping Wheel
per cubic foot.
Dirt Cheap 2 x 72 Belt Grinder Build
Make a Wooden Drive Wheel

Dirt Cheap Post Anvil
Model W/Cu. Ft.
Hidden Tang Construction: Pinned
KO 18 6051
Through Tang Construction
KH 414 7228
Mokume Gane Copper & Brass
KH 418 5421
What Belts are Best?
Artisan 688 6480
Knifemaker Supply Links
KF 18 4608
Octagonal Wa Build
KF 13.5 4608
Introduction to Japanese Kitchen Cutlery
KF 27 3840
DIY 20 ton Forging Press: Part 1 Intro and
Fram...
Average 5462 Two Pole vs Four Pole Motors
Static Dissipation Brush for Belt Grinder
My design should come in about 5000 W per cubic foot, which should provide similar performance
to the Evenheat models of similar ratings and capacity.
Search This Blog
Search
Here in Canada, 20A circuits are quite common, especially in kitchens and is
now code to have two in every kitchen for new construction. Not that I want to
put my kiln in my kitchen, but that possibility exists. My garage has several Blog Archive
dedicated 20A receptacles. I could have designed for 240VAC, but that would
▼ 2017 (8)
mean a 2 pole breaker and extra wiring and a new plug where I intend to use the
▼ Aug (1)
oven. Your mileage may vary, so if you decide to go with a 240V version, you will
need to calculate and adjust your overcurrent protection, wire sizes and heating element(s) and KN20 Honesuki Lefty
plug to match.
► Jul (1)
► Jun (1)
For heating wire I chose Kanthal A1 which is good to
1400°C. I bought some readymade 3kW 220V heating ► May (3)
elements (eBay). These are 31.5" long and 0.25" in diameter ► Mar (1)
and work out to be 30 ohms each. I will arrange them in
► Jan (1)
parallel, three at 20 ohms each. The formula for resistors in
parallel is Rt = 1/1/R1+1/R2+1/R3... so we end up with a ► 2016 (16)
calculated 6.33 ohms, with my elements and multimeter
► 2015 (63)
reads as 6.6 ohms. 120 Volts divided by 6.6 Ohms = 18.1
► 2014 (53)
Amperes. 18.1 A times 120 V = 2181 Watts. Just about
right! The great thing about Kanthal is that the resistance ► 2013 (27)
changes very little over the temperature range of the wire. At 1100°C it increases only by 4%
which in my circuit amounts to 6.8 ohms.
MiniBio
D. Comeau
For temperature control I bought a small PID temperature Modern day Renaissance
controller and a Solid State Relay (SSR) that can handle 25 Guy, D.I.Y. and repurposing
amperes and 380 VAC. This is Mypin TA4SSR. The 400°C Jedi, crafting knives and
probe that came with it cannot be used in this application so tools and finding new uses
I bought a K type 1250°C thermocouple on eBay. NOTE: for old junk along the way. Passionate about
Some photos show my initial choice for the temperature making things and sharing knowledge.
controller at CXTG3000, which crapped the bed after 1/2 View my complete profile
hour of use.

Great Belts
BE WARNED! Your PID controller must be suitable for
driving a Solid State Relay (SSR). The Mypin part number ALEKO 4Inch x 36Inch 80 Grit Aluminum
would be like TA4Sxx. The S means that it was meant to Oxide Sanding Belt, 10Pack
drive an SSR. If there was an R in that place, it was meant to drive a Relay.
Fellow Knifemaker's Sites
If you are unfamiliar with PID, it means Proportional Integral Derivative, which is essentially "lots
of gas when you are getting up to speed and less gas when you get are at the desired speed." In Campbell Knives
this case, the heating stays steady as the oven is warming up and then reduced as the kiln Noon's Knives
interior gets closer to the target temperature. One benefit of a PID type controller is that as you Walter White Knives
get close to the target temperature, it doesn't "overshoot" and push the temperature too high; Steel Town Custom Knives
which can be the case with a conventional open/close heating circuit that is slow to respond. Girvas Handmade Knives and Jewelry
Poppa Bear Knives
Recommended wire for connecting to
Wilson Knifeworks
the heating elements is type SEW /SF2
or similar high temperature, silicone
insulated wire. You find this kind of wire Cutlery Stainless Steel Datasheets
in toasters and ovens. All I could find in
Sandvik 13C26
my scrap pile was 12 AWG, so I went
AEBL
with that. The 20A power wiring will be
12 AWG and the rest of the control CPM S35VN
wiring will be 18 to 20 AWG or whatever CPM S30V
I can muster from the scrap pile. CPM154
154CM

Knife Making Links
All the other electrical components
fuses, wire, crimp connectors, nuts Some Slideshows I've Made
bolts etc. are generally easy to find in the industrialized world, aka eBay, Home Depot, Lowes $50 Knife Shop
etc, and so on that I will document when I put this all together. Essentially everything I required Canadian Knifemaker (forum)
could be had from off of eBay. This is the Bill of Materials. HT2100 Bill of Materials and
Anvil Fire Heat Treating
Schematic.
Knife Network Newbies
Ray Rogers Handcrafted Knives
Canadian Knifemaker Supply
Construction
Gough Customs (Videos)
I started by placing the fire bricks in a variety of different
ways to create a suitable interior dimensions for heating
small parts. Once I have the arrangement, I planned where Sites of Interest to Knifemakers
the heating elements are going to be routed on the inside.
Melting Temperatures of Metals
By using a pencil attached to various blocks of wood, I Blacksmithing Info (PDFs)
could draw parallel lines for the heating element grooves. A The Engineering Toolbox
compass can help with the bends. Wood Database
This will be the inside of the ceiling blocks with the power Other Blogs I Read
coming in on the right side.
Bitjärn Knives Blog (Sweden)
Lite nya blad till japanska kockknivar...
Japanese Knife Sharpening Blog
Handle Finish
Blog — Haburn Knives Handmade
Stainless & Carbon Steel Knives and
Tools
Custom Western Damascus Integral
I went over the pencil
lines with a permanent Wabocho
marker. Sunday sharpening session.
Tai Goo Studio
New Video Trailer
Fry Custom Knives
How to build a frame handle knife WIP
Blackwood Custom Knives
Tanto Grind on a Mini Skirmish Blade
WIP Pics
I mortared the pieces together with high temperature
fireplace mortar. Put a good bead down then smear it
smooth. Both of the mating faces get this treatment.
Once the walls are stuck together, I start routing. Same goes for back and roof.

The magic is in this 7/32" drill bit and this piece of an old
bed knob. I drilled a 1/4" hole right through the bed knob and
inserted the 7/32" bit into the chuck so that about 1/4" is
sticking out.

With a straight edge, I walked the bit along the lines to dig
the groove. Periodically applying the shop vac to see how
things are going.
The net result is the
grooving process worked
out pretty well. On the
right side wall I drilled a
place for the connections
to go through the fire
brick.

Note: We cannot connect
copper wire inside the
oven as the wires would
melt (1085°C melting
point).

Now to cement the bricks
together with high
temperature mortar.
This is the view looking in from the front. Now for the
electrical connections.

Heating Electrical Connections
The three heating elements in this design are in parallel, which means I need to have six leads
coming from inside to the outside. These will then be connected three N (Neutral) sides together
and three L (Line) sides together.
Element Wiring
The three elements have holes that feed them from the right side of the oven and the control box
will be on the right side as well. I will be passing the Kanthal through the firebrick and making a
connection to the SEW wire on the outside of the oven. These connections will be covered and
the SEW will be fed into the control box via a strain relief.
The process of installing the elements is quite simple. Twist about 3" of lead on each end of the
element and feed the lead through the hole and staple the element into place with U shaped
staples I made from carbon steel welding wire. My Kanthal comes wound pretty consistent and I
made the groove size to fit, so not too many staples are required. Say 1 staple every 4 to 6
inches. More may be needed if your heating wire doesn't friction fit as tight. Use some
needlenose pliers and push the staples in at about a 45 degree angle to secure the heating
elements.

Twisted ends about 3" long. These will
pass through the holes so the electrical
connection can be made outside the
oven.
About 5/8" of foldedback wire should stick out of the fire
brick.

Visegrips hold the end outside the oven while I run the
heating wire in the groove on the inside.

This is how I am connecting to the elements from outside the oven.
These are the brass wire nuts from Marettes, the heavy duty screw
clamp kind. If you cannot find these, machine screws, nuts and flat
washers will work to make the element connections to the feed
wiring.

Checking the resistance
of the ceiling element.
Okay!
Mechanical Assembly
After the heating circuits are wired in, we need to put the brick panels all togther and mechanically
secure them so everything fits tight. There also needs to be a hinge and a frame to hold the door
on. An idea for a corner frame made with flat bar, readyrod, a few pieces of angle iron and a little
bit of welding came to mind.
I cut the 11/2" angle to 18" (the length of the oven, less the
door).
Two 11 1/4" crossmembers from 1/8" x 1 1/4" flat bar.
Clamp and weld. Check with a square before welding.
I found these legs at a garage sale. They are from IKEA. A
fancy touch for a $1.
I drilled the 12 holes in the frame to 3/16" and counter sank
them so they are ready to attach the legs with flat head
machine screws and nuts. We'll get everything done and
painted first before screwing the legs on.

Door frame. Marking for 45°.
Door frame cuts. Three of these required at 14", 25 1/2" and
39 1/2"
Break it back on itself and tack weld the joints. I don't have
a brake at home so I used a machinist's vise and hammer.
Check for square and continue welding.

Oven Frame
The oven frame is probably way over complicated, but I was planning on using scrap that I had in
my shop. I wanted to be able to adjust the door at the hinge to allow a precise fit. A simple way to
do this is to slip a tube over a vertical piece of ready rod that is clamping the roof panel down.

On the left front the hole for the ready rod is drilled in a piece of angle and welded to the bottom
frame.

Additional angles are welded to the rear sides. The front
right is a single piece of 1/8" flat bar that is bent on a 90°.
This acts as a clamp when tightened down on the left.

A quick shot of paint as a primer and attached the legs.
Fitting the IFB panels in. I had some scrap 0.02 aluminum that I cut with tin snips and rubbed with
a scouring pad to give a brushed look. The angles are corner supports from a suspended ceiling
system that I painted to match the frame.

Miscellaneous fabricated parts. Switch brackets and door
hinge. The hold downs as 5/16" readyrod with
miscellaneous nuts and washers.
Door installed. I used some 80 grit sand paper on a block to
match the surfaces to close and make a good seal. Now
adding the latch on the right side.
Neodymium magnet for holding door tightly closed. (Note: I
changed this in 2015. See Updates at the bottom of this
page.)

Control Panel
The control system is enclosed in a suitable box, in my case I made something from material I
had handy in my shop.
The general layout is shown on the left.
Some 1/8" aluminum would be rigid enough to mount the
controls in and act as a heat sink for the SSR.

I marked out the front and rear and drilled holes.
The PID controller needs a square so I drilled the corner
holes so the jig saw blade could get started. Clamped down
to the bench I cut the square out rough.
Filed to the square opening to the line.
Test fit. 45mm is about right. Note: I had to replace
this temperature controller as this one died after
about an hour. The hole size should be the same for
any 1/16 DIN device, 45mm x 45mm.

As much as possible I prewired the switches and other components
to make the wiring in the enclosure easier.

Rear panel. This needs holes for the following: Main power
cable, Fuse 1 (main power) and F2 (control power),
Thermocouple, door switch and output to the heating circuit.

The is the front panel layout.Clockwise from PID controller:
1: Oven On LED, 2: Door Open LED, 3 Elements Off LED,
5: Elements Switch, 6: Main Power Switch, 7: Main Power
On LED.
On the underside of the oven I have a momentary NO/NC
switch installed. It will shut the elements off when the door
is opened. The NC contact is wired to the Door Open LED
on the front panel. The 1/4" bolt allows for adjustment of the
actuator.

The thermocouple is fitted to a piece of Glastic and
cemented in with high temperature mortar from the bottom.
The probe extends up into the centre of the oven. This is
away from the elements and where the steel is going to be
heating.

I will make a firebrick stand for the blades that will have a
hole in the middle to accommodate the thermocouple.

The heating circuit wiring is connected with 12 AWG type SEW (SF2), a 200°C silicone/fibreglass
insulated wire. The perimeter is an insulating board called Glastic which is a fibreglass composite.
In hindsight and after reviewing some other designs, I could have brought the element
connections out the back.


Another few pieces of Glastic will make a protective cover
for the electrical connections. Glastic is rated for up to
210°C (410°F). I am hoping the exterior will never get close
to this temperature. Only testing will determine this.

This is a look at the wiring before the
controller and oven connections are
made. The LEDs are wired for 120
VAC.

On the left side is the main power
switch along with the LEDs and
Element Off switch. The right side
(back of the enclosure) contains the
SSR, power fuses and I/O strain
reliefs. Note that it's a good idea to put
some thermal compound on the SSR
when mounting it. This helps dissipate
the heat.

DO NOT CONNECT ANY LED DIRECTLY TO 120 VOLTS!
I wired the LEDs for 120
VAC with a single series
resistor of 68k Ohms 1/2
Watt and a 1N4007 diode.
This will light the LED
and protect it from over
current and excessive
reverse voltage.

PID controller is wired in and system check. Note I've
bonded the enclosure case to the green ground wire with a
stud on the rear panel. There is a wire that runs down to the
metal frame to bond that as well.

One last check on the heating circuit. 6.6 ohms. Should be good!
20A receptacle with unit plugged in.

Let there be heat! Initially the temperature is climbing quickly, the slows to about 0.5 degree per
second around 500°C. I will plot the temperature over time and see if I can improve the
performance.

This is the SSR during firing. It has an LED in the control side that shows when it's on. SSRs are
essentially triacs with optically coupled gates. The DC side can be from 3 to 32 volts. Putting
voltage on the control side turns the triac on and the AC is allowed to flow.

A brief video showing the PID controller pulsing the heating circuit. As the internal temperature
measured by the thermocouple (PV or Process Value) gets close to the SV (Setpoint Value) of
100.0°C, the controller reduces the heat to slow down the approach and avoid overshooting the
setpoint.
I will start some tests and report back my findings shortly.
Schematic

I've had so many requests for a simple 240 V version I made this schematic. Note the 240 V
version uses some but NOT ALL the same parts listed on the HT2100 Bill of Materials.

Performance Graph
OBSERVATIONS:
Firebricks expanded/shifted leaving gap on door around 650°C, decreasing overall efficiency.
These will have to be reseated. Exterior warm to touch after 60 minutes (700°C).
Overall, I am thinking I can improve on the heating curve by increasing the insulation in certain
areas e.g. gaps in door seal, slightly reducing the interior volume by adding some more IFB on the
floor. Because it is cold in my garage (below freezing) I expected some influence of the ambient
temperature. The target is 1050°C (1922°F) but unfortunately, I ran out of time to prove this, but it
looks a linear rise. Close but no cigar! Later.
Looking at the economics of owning your own HT oven, I am computing it's a big plus! My heat
treatment service charges $17.50 for an 8 to 12" blade, plus I have to mail it there and wait.
Express envelope is $10.92, so to send out for a single 9" blade is CA$28.42. Based on my last
power bill, this oven would cost me $0.28 per hour. So running the HT2100 for 4 hours would only
be $1.12. I am happy about that, even if I double this value for using my tempering oven time.
Plus, I don't think I'd run this for 4 hours unless I had at least 2 or 3 blades in there. So savings
all around.

After the heat run, I powered the oven off. Almost exactly two hours later I turned the power back
on again. It was 386°C in there still! Talk about amazing insulation of fire brick!

Success!
I was able to get to suitable soak temperature for almost all the knife steels I could want. I did
have to set the target "SV" temperature higher than what I wanted. Because of this I am thinking
the oven was approaching its maximum temperature limit. Works for me!

Handy Temperature Conversion Chart


UPDATES:
January 2015

I changed the magnet for a more positive closure system.
This is a bolt welded on a piece of pipe. The female part at
the oven in threaded. The wood is only a handle to crank the
door closed.

Bill of Materials (draft) is here! HT2100 Bill of Materials and Schematic.
May 2015
I replaced the thermocouple. I was doing some work inside tweaking the elements and the tip of
the probe broke off. Luckily, I had a replacement on hand as I was preparing to do a sanity check
with two probes/controllers.
New Elements
When I did the first element change I added some support to the ceiling. It wasn't exactly falling
apart, but I would imagine that successive element changes would leave a pile of rubble. I used
1/8" steel rod and cut it into piece slightly less than the width of the bricks. I ground the tip of the
rod to a chisel. I then "drilled" it through the bricks across the ceiling. This creates an internal wire
frame that holds the bricks better. I also touched up the mortar in a few places.
June 2016
Added schematic for simplified 240 Volt, 3000 Watt oven.
New Heat Run Data

April 2017
To help in the design of your oven I have made a spreadsheet. It comes with no warranties, but
it's free!
DanCom_s KanthalA1Coil Calculator R_1.xlsx
As always, your comments and suggestions help make things better.
Dan
120 comments:
hana ksatria January 21, 2014 at 9:03 PM
nice projeck
n thank's, it's very help me..
Reply
Unknown April 15, 2014 at 12:22 PM
Great Project, did you ever get the materials list complete?
Reply
Replies
DanCom February 14, 2016 at 4:31 PM
Bill of Materials is linked on from this page.
Reply
Sachin Magdum May 5, 2014 at 12:16 AM
Great Products and specification, blog is creative and readable... Heat Treatment Furnace ,
Electric Furnaces, Industrial Ovens Manufacturer in India | AFECO Heating System
Reply
John vonTempske September 14, 2014 at 11:18 AM
Nice job. Can you provide some information on programing/setting up the PID. I am rebuilding
an old kiln, reduced in size and with new elements which I am coiling myself. I have the same
controller and a similar SSR, except I am running at 240V. Most of the kiln work is streight
forward, but the Mypin instructions are vague and most of the online information is for much
lower temperatures.
Thanks,
John
Reply
Replies
DanCom September 14, 2014 at 2:18 PM
Hi John,
The only things I did to the Mypin TA4 was set the Input Type to 'K' which
automatically has a range of 01200°C. (Of course I had to buy a separate 1200°C
probe as the one that came with the temperature controller was rated to 400°C
probe.) Then I adjusted the set variable to 1080°C. I left the PID settings as default. I
haven't found a use for the alarms as of yet so these are not set. The alarm 1 LED
comes on at 100 degrees, but that's not a big deal.
I did find that winding my own elements from 16 AWG Kanthal was a large
improvement on heating times. The new elements heat up fast. I am getting to
1000°C in less than an hour now, which is much less waiting than before.
If there are any specifics I can help with, please let me know. I followed the section in
the Mypin instructions called "Parameter Setting". Input type was the important one.
Good luck!
Dan
Reply
Zach Settle October 12, 2014 at 10:09 AM
Hi Dan,
Can you let me know what dimensions your bricks were? I'm trying to order the correct amount to
be cost efficient and I've seen quite a few different options.
Reply
DanCom October 12, 2014 at 10:47 AM
Hi,
The bricks that I found are 9" x 41/2" x 21/2". Essentially the walls are 21/2" thick. I used 23
bricks in total, but they come from Babcock & Wilcox come in boxes of 25.
Cheers!
Dan
Reply
John Truong October 15, 2014 at 7:55 PM
Hi Dan,
Thank you for such a detailed and methodical documentation of the process. It is very refreshing
to have such detailed instructions!
Were you able to get around to doing a bill of materials? I am from Australia and sometimes find
it hard to source the same things that are listed in North American articles.
I would also love a bit more detail into the electronics and wiring details. I really liked how you
did it.
Cheers,
John
Reply
Tim Craig February 3, 2015 at 3:02 PM
Great work! Execellent information. Which model led did you purchase from digi key?
Reply
Any 5mm domed LED will work. I had a little drawer full of LEDs that I picked through. Some
were from the dollar store (look in the toys there for LEDs). Often you can get a pile of them for $1
and repurpose them. Digikey has many to choose from, look around here:
http://www.digikey.com/productsearch/en?mpart=C512AWNNCZ0B0151&vendor=90
Dan
Reply
Abdullah Ndiaye February 15, 2015 at 10:35 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Reply
Willem Blom June 1, 2015 at 7:42 AM
Hi there . Would like to know what the highest temperature was that you have reached with this
kiln?
Regards Willem
Reply
Replies
DanCom June 2, 2015 at 8:18 AM
Hi Willem,
I have gone up to 1100°C (2012°F). This is the maximum typically needed for heat
treatment. The controller goes to 1200°C and the Kanthal wire is good for 1400°C.
Most of the stainless steel I heat treat requires 1050 to 1080°C (1922 to 1976°F) .
Reply
Daniel Keown June 10, 2015 at 3:04 PM
Can you make a detailed material list.
Reply
Replies
DanCom June 10, 2015 at 3:07 PM
Yes there is a Bill of Materials link above. Or download the Excel file here:
here
Reply
bart marinissen July 21, 2015 at 10:53 AM
I was wondering about the support for the middle bricks in the ceiling. I heard some people say
the fireproof mortar isn't very strong. It seems like this mortar is all that is holding up these bricks;
am I missing something? If not, in hindsight, are you happy with the ceiling?
Reply
Replies
DanCom July 21, 2015 at 11:13 AM
Hi Bart,
I did reinforce the ceiling when I did the element change in 2014. I did this steel rod
and sort of drilled them through the bricks. I touched up the mortar a bit at that time.
In hindsight, I would have made the ceiling bricks rest on the walls, although this
would have made for a narrower chamber. Also, in hindsight, I would have ran all the
elements only in the walls. The element wire expands significantly when hot and
droops if you don't staple it down every few inches.
It's still working well for me, so I will let sleeping dogs lie. One day I will take what I
learned and start on a new one.
Dan
Reply
Unknown September 25, 2015 at 7:08 PM
very nice. I think I might have a bit of a shortcut maybe. Was on craigslist and found about 6
ceramic kilns cheap (kind of). Great presentation
Reply
Replies
DanCom September 25, 2015 at 9:13 PM
Thanks! Getting some insulating fire bricks of any kind is the place to start.
Dan
Reply
nelson September 26, 2015 at 3:16 PM
Hello.
friend, you could help me.
I'm designing an electric kiln for fusing glass.
I intend to reach 1250 ° C.
The idea of the kiln would be cylindrical.
with a voltage of 220V.
5000watts calculated; I do not know if I am right in this calculation.
Oven dimensions that I think is:
63.50cm in diameter
35 cm
Would I like an idea on the issue of resistances that will use
If in series or parallel.
Size of these resistances
Wire Thickness
If anyone can help me, I thank you.
Reply
KNIFE MAKER November 9, 2015 at 1:29 PM
I'm going to build your kilm thanks for all your pictures and information.
Reply
Unknown November 17, 2015 at 9:24 PM
Can you give an over all price of the build ?
Reply
Replies
DanCom November 18, 2015 at 7:27 PM
Based on what I scrounged up and the deal I got on the firebrick around $250.
Reply
Unknown November 20, 2015 at 1:41 PM
Did you put anything or staples to hold the element in the bricks? Or it's just by pression. And did
it hold during all those firing?
Reply
Replies
DanCom November 20, 2015 at 2:34 PM
Yes, staples I made from Kanthal A1 wire. They are about 2" (50mm) long and
shaped like a V, I used pliers to push them into the soft brick. I probably used around
50 of these to hold the elements in place.
Reply
Farris December 15, 2015 at 7:22 AM
Is there a reason to run multiple elements other than to set up the appropriate resistance? In
other words; can one element (60' of 14ga A1 wire) in a single element for 18.8 amps @ 240v be
used?
Reply
Replies
DanCom December 15, 2015 at 11:10 AM
That's perfectly fine. My original design used offtheshelf elements that were 19
ohms each. As long as your getting even heating. In hind sight, I'd drop the ceiling
element and run only element(s) in the walls.
Dan
Reply
Boyan Silyavski December 29, 2015 at 11:30 PM
Nice job. Now just FYI a well made 2kw 220VAC laboratory kiln reaches 1000C for 20min and
outside is NEVER hot. So it seems if you have invested in refractory wool for the outside you
would have achieved this. Also the lab kiln i used, used wool for the perfect closure of the gap
between the door and the kiln.
Just my 2c for the would be builders
Anyway, you did a great job, especially documenting all that. Unfortunately at the time i sold the
kiln and now with the combined knowledge i see spending more money for the wool is
unavoidable for me.
Reply
Laurent January 19, 2016 at 3:05 PM
hello,
I am making my own oven
and I am interesting my some questions/precisions about your electrical sketch (I am not an
electrician).
1"Oven on lamp" what is for ? and what is the difference with "element off lamp".
2 What is the difference between S3 and S2 ?
3 I understand position of S2 and S3 directly connected to plug 3 of PID but I don't understand
the 2 del and their switch (it is switch ??) in the most bottom left part.
sorry for my ignorance (other way to contact you ? I am not comfortable with social network...)
Laurent
Reply
Replies
Hi Laurent,
The main power to the oven can remain on while the controller dictates whether the
element is on or off. Also, when the door is open the element is powered off despite
what the controller wants.
The LEDs are showing status only. One is main power, another is Door Open (door
switch is open), another is the status of the element power.
The reasons for this configuration is than when annealing, you want to keep the
controller powered up while turning the elements off, thus a long cool down can occur
with the door closed. You can keep monitoring the oven temperature and the
controller is a monitor only as it cannot turn the heating elements on.
Reply
Laurent January 23, 2016 at 10:29 PM
Nice
Reply
Laurent February 3, 2016 at 3:03 PM
Thanks !
and I understood you use a momentary pushbutton with 2 throw (for S3) and S2 is a DPST
switch ! right ?
Thanks
Reply
Clint Childers February 22, 2016 at 4:39 PM
Hello Dan. I am building an oven and really like/appreciate your build and sharing of
information. I am using your schematic and am curious about the thermal cut out switch. Is the to
prevent the electronics from melting if it gets too hot?
Reply
Replies
DanCom February 23, 2016 at 11:21 AM
Yes, the cutout button is made to kill the power if the insides of the control box exceed
105°C (221°F) This around the temperature where most wire insulation will be getting
pretty runny. ;) I did find the 90°C (194°F) button easier to come by.
Dan
Reply
Tyler Schiffman February 22, 2016 at 8:04 PM
Just curious, would you be able to use all the same parts if you used 220vac instead of 110vac?
I just think going 220 might be more efficient. Just curious what you think.
Reply
Replies
DanCom February 23, 2016 at 11:16 AM
The schematic above will not work for 240 VAC as there were some very specific
things that I did for 120 V operation. Increasing the voltage will increase the power
and make the unit heat faster, but the only way to improve efficiency would be to
increase the thickness of the bricks or seal them better from heat loss. I would
recommend going to 3000 Watts at 240 VAC. This will require a different plug,
additional fuse, different LED resistors and so on. I would love to put up a schematic
for 240 V oven, but haven't the time right now. Coming soon though.
Thanks for your comment!
Dan
Reply
Clint Childers March 3, 2016 at 9:04 PM
Dan, I am near completion of my build. I have copied yours except I am only using 1 element. I
am no electrician and am struggling with the wiring of the "Door open" and "element off"
switches. I am confused by the markings on the schematic. I notice these 2 switches are noted
twice. I have looked at the pictures for hours trying to see how the wires are routed. Can't see the
bottom of the SSR. Any guidance would be helpful.
Thank you!
Clint
Reply
Replies
DanCom March 4, 2016 at 2:24 AM
Hi Clint,
One contact of the door open and elements off switch are wired in series, eg first
through one switch then out through the other. Opening either stops the SSR.
I am using double pole double throw switches. One pole of a switch controls the SSR,
the other pole does the LED. When the SSR pole of a switch is open, the LED pole is
closed. That is why the LED are labelled as "Door Open" (SSR will be off) and
"Elements Off" (also SSR off).
I hope this helps.
Dan
Reply
Nick Graff March 15, 2016 at 3:15 PM
Dan, in your bill of materials you state that the two fuses "Must be 125v or 250v rated". I am
assuming that you used the 125v fuses in your 125v oven and listed the 250v fuses for those
building a 250v oven correct?
Reply
DanCom March 15, 2016 at 7:14 PM
Most common glass fuses are 250 V rated. Some fuse models come in 125 V. Either will work
safely at 120 V.
If you wired this oven for 240 V operation, you would need to fuse each line (two main fuses
instead of one) as each line could potentially fault to ground.
Reply
Thomas Rice March 29, 2016 at 12:08 AM
Great blog, TONS of info! Thank you
Reply
Dan, curious if the controller/element combo willdo tempering temps? 600F?
Am looking to build an oven for heat treating swords and would be excellent to also be able to
temper in it.
Thanks again and excellent site!
Reply
Replies
DanCom March 29, 2016 at 8:19 AM
Thanks Thomas. Yes this setup makes an excellent, stable tempering oven.
DC
A quick question,
To wire a oven 220, the two hot leads go across the elements as opposed to
hot/neutral for 120? And the supply side has to be adjusted accordingly as well,
element calcs to make sure wattage is correct,
What limits the current to the elements? Other than the breaker, just a little rusty on
my electrical theory, im thinking the draw is constant based on the resistance of the
elements??
DanCom March 29, 2016 at 9:33 PM
The resistance (Ohms) in the heating elements limits the current. Current = Volts /
Ohms.
It's not quite as easy as doubling the voltage. There are a bunch of things in the circuit
that need consideration for working at 240 V. The overcurrent protection is foremost.
You will need two power fuses one for each hot. You'll also need to check that the
controller will handle 240 V directly. The model I used is good from 85 to 265 V, but
you need to be sure. The LEDs as shown will likely be very bright at 240 V, may want
to change their resistors to 100kOhm.
Dan
Thomas Rice April 3, 2016 at 9:49 AM
Dan,
Thanks for your reply, i have been doing some digging and reading and actually put
my thinking cap on, im a bit rusty, used to know this stuff in a past life but when you
dont use it you loose it!
I found some schematics on the Evenheat website, they confirm the design, theirs
dont show dual relays controlling 2 banks of 2 elements,
Heres a stupid question, cant find the answer on amazon or wherever but,
What is the current draw of those SSRs?
The controller shows 3a output, was looking at using some heavier SSR relays, they
have 40A that are still inexpensive, thinking go oversize, 2 40A relays, to run
elements on either side of the oven. Got to calc the draw etc, not 100% on direction
im going on elements, ie wind my own or buy pre made,,
Pre made are easy,
In theory, the control circuit for the controller could be 110v and a separate feed circuit
for the heat elements,, can even be two separate circuits, the two pole for elements
and a separate single pole for the controller/lights etc
???
Used to do motor controls in an industrial setting, but that was 35 years ago, so its
coming back slowly, we didnt use a lot of SS hardware, mostly old school magnetic
contactors, did do some dabbling with modicon programmables though so
understand the theory behind it.
Anyway, thanks and wishing you well,
Tom
kulariceball@gmail.com
Thomas Rice April 3, 2016 at 11:31 AM
Heres a link i found that gives draw of the relays
https://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Components/General/SSR40DA.pdf
Super low draw,
DanCom April 4, 2016 at 2:50 PM
Hi Thomas,
I hope I understand the question. The SSRs are rated to switch 40 A @ 380 V or less.
Like an electromagnetic relay, they take a typically small voltage or current and
switch a larger voltage or current on or off.
The controller, if it has a relay output can switch 3A. What you want is a controller that
has an output for SSRs. That will put out a small DC voltage and is wired directly to
the input (think of it like a solid state coil) side of the SSR. These SSR outputs are
usually low current mA DC. The polarity has to be right or the SSR won't fire.
As for the 240/120 V setup, you certainly can do that. It means you'd need a NEMA 14
receptacle that has a neutral. Your controller power is from Line to N (120 V) and the
heating element is switched via the SSR from L to L (240 V). You will also have to
provide 2 fuses or a 2 pole circuit breaker to protect the oven itself.
Regards,
Dan
Reply
Dad April 8, 2016 at 10:38 PM
HI Dan,
First, I'd like to thank you for this site. As a relative newbie I think you probably saved me
hundreds of hours and a lot of money! So, Thanks!
Now, two questions re. the heat treat oven. 1. Can I get by with a single 100 ft piece of Kanthal
A1 18 ga if I don't do the ceiling? And, 2. I'm having a hard time finding a TA4 SSR but there are
a lot of TA4 SNRs around. They're sol with the same 25amp SSR, so will it work the same? Will I
still be able to use your wiring schematics?
Thanks for the help!
Reply
DanCom April 9, 2016 at 8:07 AM
Hi,
If you make the total resistance the same you'll be okay for a 120 Volt oven. A smaller oven is
good with around 2200 Watts @ 120 V
16 AWG Kanthal A1
2 parallel runs
13 Ohms per run
6.5 total Ohms
0.34 Ohms per foot
9.2 Amperes per run
18.5 total Amperes
2215.4 Watts
38.5 feet per run
Yes you can use the TA4SNR. Any unit with an S in the first position after the hyphen means the
main output 1 is ready for Solid State Relay. (N=none and R=relay.) So that SNR unit is Out 1=
SSR, Out 2=none, Alarm 1=Relay.
25A SSR is fine. Make sure you have a good heat sink (aluminum or copper) and use thermal
conductive paste. That is what I use.
If the controller set comes with a thermocouple it's probably a 400°C unit. You'll need to replace
that with a 1250°C one.
Dan
Reply
Thomas Rice May 20, 2016 at 8:35 AM
DC
What do you use for supporting your knives in this oven?
Reply
Replies
DanCom May 21, 2016 at 8:39 AM
Hi Thomas,
I use a piece of Insulated Fire Brick with some slots cut into it. Proper furniture can be
bought, but I tend make use of what I have handy. :)
Dan
Thomas Rice May 21, 2016 at 1:57 PM
Thank you Dan, was figuring on doing something like that, for me the shipping is the
killer, usually get fragile stuff in little pieces by the time it finds me
just another guy May 22, 2016 at 7:33 AM
Thank you so much for putting this up here. I just finished my own oven and although
I followed entirely different plans I found myself referring to your blog more than the
plans. I especially appreciate the detail you go into on the electronics (and in
general).
Reply
Chip Knudson July 1, 2016 at 2:24 PM
Hi Dan. I'm looking to build your 240V system, however I'm not reaching your numbers. Isn't a 2
parallel circuit with 38 ohms come out to 19 total ohms and 4500 wattage. 3 circuits would be
3000 wattage. Or am I doing the math consistently wrong?
Reply
Replies
DanCom July 2, 2016 at 7:25 AM
Hi Chip,
The formula is based on Ohm's law. Start by taking the Volts (240) divided by Ohms
(19). This will give you the Amperes. 240/19 = 12.6A Then multiply Amperes and
Volts to get Watts. 12.6 x 240 = 3031 Watts. Perhaps you were multiplying V x Ohms?
Good luck!
Reply
Paradigm Smoke Systems Admin July 11, 2016 at 9:01 PM
Hello Dan,
Well, excellent work. I have been looking at your kiln for some while now, and am interested in
breaking ground soon on my own. I am planning on using a PLC with PID capabilities, to gain
some control over other processes. (Inert gas purge, HMI with graphs/ data collection, cue lights,
buzzer, etc.)
I have a question about SSRs. Is the output voltage scaled proportionally to the input voltage? If,
for example, I input 24VDC and output 120VAC would the SSR still output 120VAC with 5VDC
input, or would it be scaled down?
Thanks again bud. I was surprised to find a live thread. Most everything I find is years dead.
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau July 12, 2016 at 8:48 AM
Hi,
The SSR is a solid state relay. It it either on or off. When the input voltage (DC) is
applied it turns the output side on.
In order to linearly control the output you'd need an amplifier or PWM or SCR based
control. All we need really for the elements is on or off. Then we modulate the "on
time" to get the oven temperature correct.
I have a mate in Canada that is building an Arduino based PID temperature controller
with all the bells and whistles. I will check with him and see if he's made any
progress.
Good luck and please let me know how it goes!
Dan
Reply
Unknown September 3, 2016 at 6:33 PM
Hi Dan,
Thx a lot for all the info. I made a 240v version and just tested it today. It works really well and
climb to 1100 in about 30 min. But one of the elements failed... Do you ever had problem with
kanthal element?? One of mine looks like if it had a very hot spot on 2 inch and failed there.
Except for this 2 inch the element seem fine.. I wonder what caused this... I have 2 more here so i
will change it next week, but if i can find an answer on what caused this to not have to change it
again i would appreciate. Maybe i pushed it too high at 25 Ohm?? I have a dual 25 Ohm setup
for 13,5Ohm parralel, so 18 amps total for 9081Watt/ cubic feet. But i dont think i pushed it too
high... What do you think?
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau September 8, 2016 at 2:13 PM
Hi, was your element prewound from the factory or did you wind it yourself? My
"store bought" elements experienced one failure after about a year and a half; say 20
firings to over 1000°C. It's possible you have a defective element. Were the coils nice
and uniformly stretched? (even spacing) If the coil is relaxed it may be too tight and
cause a hot spot.
I've over a year on my 18 gauge hand wound Kanthal A1 elements and they appear
to be going strong.
Hopefully it was just a bad element. I know it's a pain to change them out, but plan on
doing that every few years. Once fired, Kanthal becomes extremely brittle.
Dan
Mikael Lavoie September 23, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Hi Dan,
After changing the dead element, i fired it again and this time it was working perfectly.
I got cheap chinese already wound elements, and got a bad one. I already have
some on hands to change them if they fail, but it take 3h each, so i hope i won't need
to change them too often.
I want to take the occasion to say a big thanks for the time you put on your website.
You truly are an inspiration to me. I'm exactly the kind of guy like you that do all its
stuff himself, and play with steel electricy and electronics. There is nothing like the
feeling of having exactly what you need and having built it yourself. It's nice sometime
to not start a project from scratch and have an input of someone who already did it,
way faster and lot less design mistakes.
I've ordered all that was missing to start making my knive, will start grinding my first
knives soon out of the CPMS35VN blank i ordered!
So thanks again, and keep DIY!!
Mikael Lavoie September 24, 2016 at 2:02 PM
Hi again,
I'm currently designing a small cryogenic system for my shallow cryogenic treatment
for my blade (86C). When i'll have the system done and working, i'll make you the
electronic controller for free, and give you the plan so you can build one for yourself. It
will be my thanks for the time you saved me on some project. I wanted to do a system
that not require any consumable like liquid nitrogen, so it will use thermoelectric plate
(Peltier) to reach 86C. I will need to water cool the hot side of the plate to reach that
temp, so i will mill an aluminum heatsink and use tap water so it wont need any kind
of pump and chilling system.
Don't expect the system to be ready soon, i need a good 6 month more to design the
system and the controller electronics.
I will keep you informed of the process!
Mike
D. Comeau September 27, 2016 at 3:44 PM
Mike, I would seriously be interested in a Peltier cooling system for cryo treatment. My
favorite steel is AEBL and cryo for that is spec'd at 70°C, so that would work
perfectly.
Let me know how it goes!
Dan
Mikael Lavoie November 25, 2016 at 2:51 PM
Hi Dan,
I tried to find your mail to send you some news but wasn't able to find it so i will post it
here. The design is going well, the hardest part was to find a suitable sensor that dont
cost an arm and a leg, as almost all cryo sensor are platinum... But i need to know if
youre resady to invest a little bit in the project before i put time and money to build
you the controller. The 4 stage peltier module that are the heart of the project cost 56$
each, and depending on the size of the box you want to build you will need 24 of
them. You will also need 2 .062 copper plate that suits the size of the box you wanna
build. So like 15 x 46 inch. They will be the main contact with the knife, and will be
used to transfert the heat as the unit head need to be purged to be free of moisture.
This lead me to the next item, do you have argon or nitrogen in you shop? Because
you will need to purge the system head once assembled. Other than that you'll need
a camping cooler, some old mattress springs, spare woods and polystyrene foam
insulation panel.
If youre ready to spend this money on the project then i'm ok to make you the
electronic controller and send you the plan once finished so you can build one for
yourself.
If not let me know so i wont make 2 controller.
Mike
Mikael Lavoie December 7, 2016 at 10:37 PM
So do i take your silence as a no?
D. Comeau December 8, 2016 at 11:23 AM
Hi Mike,
Sorry I missed this post. At this time I am not interested in a controller. I am interested
in your project. Kindly keep us up with details.
Regards,
Dan
Reply
Unknown October 1, 2016 at 10:17 AM
Hello Sir,
I'm in the process of bumbling my way through a 240V oven build. I've butchered a cheap used
pottery kiln for fire brick. Unfortunately every brick has two very deep channels cut through it for
the long, spiral heating element that used to be present. Trimming the bricks square rendered
them much thinner than yours (around 2"). I plan to make up for the thinness by casting the entire
oven in 3 4" of refractory cement. I am working on a plywood enclosure right now for when I am
ready to pour. Wish me luck, and/or chime in if you think it's a foolish idea.
I have a few questions on the electrical side though:
On the 240V schematic, I'm assuming the two main switches, following the fuses, are of the
SPDT variety, both rated for 20A 250V?
I'm assuming the DOOR and ELEMENT OFF switches needn't be rated as highly as the mains,
since they are working the low voltage side of the controller?
LED power will be limited by 100K or higher resistors, is is still OK to use the same diode
afterward (1N4007)?
Do you have any affordable suggestions for building inlet plugs into my enclosure? It will sit
away from the oven, as opposed to being attached to it, and I envision the ability to unplug
everything, stow the enclosure away from dust and children, and wheel the oven around by
itself. I'm assuming I will need a plug for the TC and one for main.
I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get farther into the wiring.
Thanks for the quality write up and your constructive feedback!
v/r
Alex
Reply
D. Comeau October 1, 2016 at 2:50 PM
Hi Alex,
The main power switch needs to handle the current of the heating elements and control power
so it needs to be ar least 10 A and rated for the voltage. Use a double pole switch for the main
power as you want to switch both hots with the main switch.
The control switches can be lower current, 6 A being common.
The 1N4007 will work fine at 240 V as they are rated for 1000 V reverse.
As for a plug, you could use a NEMA 6 plug and receptacle. For the thermocouple you can use a
type K plug.
It would be awesome to see your build.
Dan
Reply
HildeShebaCarlita October 28, 2016 at 5:37 PM
I've noticed most PIDs list k thermocouple then an input range k03 which indicates 0600 in one
example.
If you buy a higher temp thermocouple that is a k type but it's range is greater say 01300 does
this require a change on the PID to support?
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau October 29, 2016 at 8:09 AM
Yes. With this particular controller I set the Input UP limit to 1200 and left the Input
LOW limit at 0. This allows the display to show the full range of temperatures with the
high temperature thermocouple.
Adam Goldenstein December 29, 2016 at 12:41 PM
Thanks for the write up as I am building one similar to yours. I am still confused about
the Mypin TA4SSR PID you used. Can it be used with a K type thermocouple to
control temps up to 2,300F or something less?
D. Comeau December 29, 2016 at 9:18 PM
Hi Adam,
The TA4 will display up to 1999 F or C. In Fahrenheit it will not go to 2300°. In Celsius
it will go to the equivalent temperature (1260°C) if you can find a suitable
thermocouple. For most heat treatment the high 1950°F is suffice. I do not
recommend using an electric setup for forge welding.
Dan
Reply
Shane Komick November 10, 2016 at 1:58 AM
This is an amazing article ! THANKS for taking the time to document and post this excellent
information.
Reply
Unknown November 27, 2016 at 11:02 AM
I'm trying to make a smaller oven, 4"x4.5"x13.5" or .14ish cubic feet. If I did the math right, I
would only need 1 coil, similar to yours, to get just a hair under 5000W per Cuft. Can someone
check my work? Each coil is about 20.6 ohms so...
120V/20.6 ohms= 5.8 amps
5.8 ampsx120V=699W
699W/.14 cubic ft= 4992 W/cubit ft
I haven't taken any measurements myself on the coils because I haven't bought them yet, but I
figured that if I could do the math ahead of time, I could save myself some trouble by getting a
close estimate. The coils are 40ft 18gauge Kanthal A1, prewound, at .515 ohm per foot.
Thanks
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau November 27, 2016 at 4:09 PM
The numbers look good. One 20 ohm coil is about right as your chamber is smaller
and less wattage is required. Just make sure to get the heat distributed as best as you
can by placement of the elements inside the chamber.
Dan
Reply
Unknown December 8, 2016 at 7:16 AM
Hello from Calgary. It looks like we were going on the same learning path at about the same
time. If only I had known. I would have been asking questions here constantly.
If you'd like to see the projects ever, come to Protospace some time. It's in the north end of
Calgary. Tuesdays evenings are the open house.
Reply
ColdForged January 13, 2017 at 12:38 PM
Thanks so much for this! I'm slowly acquiring parts to build one. One clarification from your BOM.
For the elements off switch, you have "Switch, panel mount DPSP, 6A 250V" from Digikey.
Unsure what a "DPSP" is. The closest onoff toggle I can find at Digikey is 6791266ND for a
SPST and 6791276ND for a DPST. It appears to my eye in the circuit that you're calling for
SPST, but wanted to verify before getting too far. I'm no one's electrician. Thanks!
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau January 13, 2017 at 6:25 PM
Hi,
Yes the switch for "elements off" needs to have two poles and two throws. One pole is
controlling the signal to the low voltage side of the SSR, while the other pole in the
opposite throw is used to turn the "elements off" LED on.
DigiKey's EG2398ND would work fine for 120V applications. For 240 ovens, you will
need to go to a suitably 250 V switch.
ColdForged January 14, 2017 at 9:23 AM
Thank you!
ColdForged January 30, 2017 at 7:53 AM
Dumb question #2: glastic. Sourcing this is tough in the states, somehow. Is GPO3 a
reasonable substitute? It's only good up to 140°C, so not as heat resistant as yours. I
just can't seem to find something that fits the properties.
D. Comeau January 30, 2017 at 12:49 PM
Hi,
Glastic was something I had handy. A piece of utility grade aluminum would work
great. It's going to have to get pretty hot to melt the aluminum.
Dan
ColdForged March 25, 2017 at 12:00 PM
Hi again Dan! I'm starting up the wiring and wanted to clarify something before I make
a mistake. I don't have a ton of 12AWG wire, so I'm trying to use it sparingly where
needed. For lighter gauge, where is that allowable in your circuit? If I'm
understanding correctly, it appears like the wiring on the 2A fuse side of the circuit
into input one of the PID is appropriate, as well as the sides of the switches and
lamps that are between the 3 and 4 outputs of the PID to the 3 and 4 (+ and ) inputs
of the SSR. Am I way off base? Thanks again!
D. Comeau March 25, 2017 at 12:17 PM
Hi,
As you suggested anything connected to the PID 1, 2, 3 and 4 can be 18 or 20 AWG
hookup 300 V wire. Current is limited by the 1 A fuse.
Use 12 AWG from the main power circuit...plug, fuse, switch to the SSR ~ and the
same for the neutral from the plug to the elements. The wiring that's going to connect
to the directly to the element leads should be type SEW (high temp silicone jacket) or
similar. That's the type of wire you find in ovens, toasters etc.
Dan
ColdForged March 25, 2017 at 12:40 PM
Thank you so much for the fast response and clarification!
Reply
ColdForged March 27, 2017 at 6:44 AM
I have to thank you for the plans as well as the advice. I finally got everything wired up this
weekend, crossed my fingers, and fired it up. Everything worked perfectly first try, from the LEDs
to the switches. Brought it up to a modest 300° just to prove it could and it did perfectly.
I saved the physical construction for last (primarily because I don't own a welder) but I'm hoping
to get everything complete this week.
Thanks again!
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau March 27, 2017 at 8:58 AM
Please let us know how it works. One recommendation is to make sure the bricks seal
good. I used some sheet sandpaper on a flat board to carefully shape the door so it
mates really well to the body. That alone is the single most thing to help keep the heat
in.
Dan
ColdForged March 27, 2017 at 9:10 AM
Thanks, yeah. I'm actually going to use some kaowool as a compressed "gasket" for
the door to try to eliminate any gap. Hopefully it'll be effective!
ColdForged April 20, 2017 at 11:20 AM
Here's a tricky one for you, Dan. It's complete, though I will likely keep tweaking
things. BUT. Doing a test run last night, I blew the 15A slow blow main fuse. My
elements are pretty much right at 8 to 8.1 Ω on the multimeter when all hooked up.
Obviously, that's right at the 15A line. It blew after about 45 minutes of heating, with
the temperature approaching 650°C. Replacing the fuse got the oven back alive... but
that's no solution. Would you have any recommendations for rectifying this? I assume
it comes in two flavors: reduce voltage or increase resistance (clearly I cut my
elements just under safe amperage). But I'm not sure what the best way to
accomplish this is. Thanks for any insight.
D. Comeau April 22, 2017 at 11:16 AM
Hi,
If you are running 120 V and 8.1 ohms, you are pulling 120/8.1 = 14.8 Amperes. That
I would fuse at 20 A. If your wiring (minimum 14 AWG) and fuse holder is good for it
go to a 20 A slow blow. Fuses are often sized 1.25 to 1.5 over the load, of course this
is dependent on the type of load.
Also, are you running on a 20 A circuit? If so, no problems. If you are on a 15 A circuit
you may experience nuisance trips of the breaker.
Let me know how it goes.
Dan
ColdForged April 24, 2017 at 9:42 AM
Thanks Dan. Yes, I'm running on a 15A circuit, unfortunately. I don't have a 20A circuit
to connect to.
I tried to remedy the situation by adding a bit of additional element in series with the
lowest measured element, bringing the total circuit up to almost 9Ω but still blew the
15A fuse after it heated up to about that same temperature. I find that odd. I do have
some 20A slow blow fuses on the way and am considering getting a 20A circuit to
use, but hoping I haven't done something weird. Everything certainly appears to be
working as designed but I just can't put my finger on this one.
D. Comeau April 24, 2017 at 1:43 PM
One other thing that comes to mind. A fellow made an oven and his suffered from coil
sag. That is the elements sagged as they warmed up. I am not sure of how you put
your elements in, trough and staple for example, but he didn't staple very well and
one part of the element would pop out of the trough and contact the same element
below it causing an increase in current that kept popping his fuses.
Not sure if that's of use, but may be worth looking at.
Dan
ColdForged April 24, 2017 at 2:12 PM
That's a possibility as I do have some sag. I'll take a close look! Thanks for the great
idea.
Reply
Jean March 29, 2017 at 9:16 PM
HI, thanks so much for this awesome guide.
I have a question regarding the 240V schematic you made;
Why do you have two SSR's, could I use only one on the L side and wire the DOOR and
ELEMENTS switch in series?
Thanks
Kind Regards
Jean
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau March 29, 2017 at 9:54 PM
Hi Jean,
Good questions.
The two SSRs on the 240 V version are for safety. When the door switch is opened,
you want to remove all power to the elements. When using two lines (North American
style 240 V) each line is 120 V to Neutral (and ground). If you used only one SSR,
switching it off would open one line, but would leave the other line on. It's safer to kill
all power to the elements when you open the door or switch the elements off.
Yes, you want to wire the door and elements on/off switches in series. My drawing
looks a little strange the way it's drawn, but you will see that they are in series.
Opening either one stops both SSRs from firing.
Hope this helps. Thanks for visiting.
Dan
jaredslawnservice1 May 6, 2017 at 7:07 PM
I am building the 240v version. I was hoping to use one 5kw element. The specs on
the element say it stretches 41"135". What amp ssr do I want? Thanks. Trying to
learn all this wiring stuff.
D. Comeau May 7, 2017 at 7:54 PM
5000 W / 240 V = 20.83 Amperes. A SSR 25A or SSR 40 A would be fine. Make sure
you have some thermal compound and a good heat sink.
Dan
jaredslawnservice1 May 11, 2017 at 1:08 PM
Thanks. My bricks should arise next week and then the fun will start.
D. Comeau May 12, 2017 at 11:42 AM
Good luck man!
Reply
Robert Bagwell April 9, 2017 at 9:06 PM
That's an insane amount of work just to save a grand. Excellent job, but I'm heeding my father's
advice: "Do something well, so that you can pay others to do what they do well." I'll just pay and
save a ton of time. Great work btw and nice of you to post the instructions.
Reply
Rhino_Aus April 26, 2017 at 12:46 AM
Hi Dan!
Im looking into starting this build in Australia, where we have single phase 240v AC. As far as I
understand, the 240 volt circuit diagram you have is for 2 phase power(split phase?) so if I was
to copy your build, I would follow the 120v version but with a different number/size of the coil to
reach the right wattage. Am I on the right path or misreading what has been said.
Thanks, Ryan
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau April 27, 2017 at 9:39 AM
Hi Ryan,
Yes, several friends in the UK have used the 120 V diagram and sized the wire, fuses,
main switch and coils for the desired wattage; typically around 3000 W. I do have a
handdrawn schematic that I could send you if you drop me an email at knives at
dcknives.com.
Dan
Bùi Thanh Nam July 28, 2017 at 12:00 AM
Hi Dan
can you send me this schematic? please
my email: btnbuithanhnam@gmail.com
thanks
Reply
Kent April 30, 2017 at 12:00 PM
HI Dan. Have considered using Quartz tubes for supporting the elements? I'm shamelessly
copying you circuit design but I'm thinking about using kaowool insulation and quartz tube
elements. Quartz itself can handle temperatures over 1000C but I don't know if the
quartz/element combination can.
Reply
Replies
Hi Kent,
I haven't had any experience with quartz tubes, but they seem to spec'd around
1200°C. This is very close to the K23 insulated firebrick temperature rating (2300°F =
1260°C) which my elements are stapled to and fully in contact with. I can't see a
reason why ceramic blanket and quartz tube wouldn't be a viable alternative to IFBs.
Dan
Reply
Michael McClean May 11, 2017 at 2:36 AM
I just finished the 120V version of your metal Heat treating oven I'm wondering how long it takes
your oven to reach 1495F?
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau May 11, 2017 at 12:13 PM
It takes about 35 minutes to reach 1500°F (815°C). There is a temperature vs. time
graph up in this page. I am not sure why your's is acting strangely. Do you have any
more information? Volume of interior, watts, controller settings?
Let me know.
Dan
Michael McClean May 14, 2017 at 12:31 PM
Dan, first of all you have terrific site and thanks for ALL the stuff!! So,I bypassed the
SSR this morning so as to eliminate the process settings. I'm at 2.5 hours and have
reached 870F. I have 120VAC and my ohms are 6 and I have around .22 cu.ft.of
volume inside my oven.I'm sitting at around 18amps. Either I'm leaking a lot of heat or
my coils aren't big enough. So any suggestions? Thanks for your time!! :).
Hi Michael,
You appear to have lots of power going in at around 2100 Watts. What fire bricks are
you using and are there any leaky spots. I use an infrared thermometer to check for
leaks around the oven. The door sealing requires careful attention. I used some sheet
sandpaper on a flat board to work the brick surfaces to mate the door to the oven
body as best as possible. This greatly improved the heat retention.
Hopefully you can improve on the rise times.
Dan
Reply
Hey Dan. I'm using hard bricks because the price of soft bricks and the shipping scared me a lot.
In hind site it would have been better to just bite the bullet.LOl. I also had an element separate
and short out so casualty number one has happened. I'm going to order soft bricks (gulp ), and
I'm wondering if you would advise using a blanket as well? Thanks so much for your help.
Reply
Replies
Hi Michael,
I've seen one build with ceramic blanket and ceramic insulators to hold the elements.
It can be done, but it's pretty hard to work with in my opinion. There is a reason why
Paragon, Evenheat et al use soft IFBs with troughs for the elements.
Also, it's important to know that the elements must be stretched. A minimum of 2 times
the coiled length and they must be stapled into the brick to stop them from sagging
and falling down and touching another part of the element.
Good luck man!
Dan
Reply
ColdForged May 16, 2017 at 12:35 PM
Final post for a while. After all your assistance and getting my sag under control, I was able to get
it to maintain my 800°C for plenty long enough to heat treat my O1 blades. I doubt it will make it
to the temperatures needed for any stainless steels, but if I stick to simple carbon steels it should
work nicely. Thanks for all the help and information.
Reply
Thanks Dan for all your help. Live long and prosper.
Reply
Michael McClean June 1, 2017 at 12:09 AM
Dan I finely hadd to brake down and purchase soft bricks and everything turned around at that
point. All is well and I cn reach 1495 F with no problem. Thanks for your support.
Reply
Tommy Woh June 1, 2017 at 9:47 PM
Hello Dan!
I am thinking of building a 3000W 240V oven with the schematics that you provided, however, I
don't understand how I can make any oven that uses 71 feet long elements haha. The oven I am
thinking of building is about 18" x 4.5" x 9" so the total length of wire running within the oven
comes out to roughly 8 feet. Are you referring to 71' of straight wire uncoiled? Thank you for
helping and providing great information! Cheers!
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau June 2, 2017 at 7:54 AM
Hi Tommy,
Yes the Kanthal wire is cut at 71 feet and then coiled. The diameter of the coil will
dictate how long the finished element is, Think about 12 to 1.
Regards,
Dan
Reply
Maksim Likharev August 11, 2017 at 9:58 AM
Hi,
good write up, but why do you need 2 SSR for 240 ( your wiring diagram ) , one is enough.
Reply
Replies
D. Comeau August 11, 2017 at 10:12 AM
Hi Maksim,
The 240 V diagram is for the North American market where the 240 is made from
individual 120 V lines. Turning only one line off would still leave the other 120 V line
live inside the oven. For safety both lines must be off when the door is opened.
If you live in Europe or Asia where your 220 V is from a single line, then only one
SSR is required. (similar to the North American 120 V version.) Hope that makes
sense,
Best wishes,
Dan
Maksim Likharev August 11, 2017 at 10:40 AM
Dan,
you can achieve that by moving door/element switches after the ssr. 2 ssr possess its
own challenges, not only doubling the cost. Just some thoughts.
Thank you.
D. Comeau August 11, 2017 at 9:40 PM
Yes you can use a suitably rated double pole momentary switch for the door.
Depending on the wattage of your elements, this will need to be rated for 15 to 20
amperes and 250 VAC. If you want to make an "elements off" switch you will need
another suitably rated double pole switch.
At $3 for an 25 ampere SSR I found them to be cheaper than decent double pole
power switches. Some scrap aluminum and thermal compound and you have a
reliable switch with no moving parts. Now you can use low voltage, low current
switches on your control panel to signal the SSR.
Perhaps a DPST relay that can shut both lines off and control its coil lightweight
switches. The relay could be an AC coil with the same voltage as your supply, or a
DC coil and you could add a small power supply.
There many ways to achieve the end result.
Dan
Reply
Enter your comment...
Comment as: veloz (Google) Sign out

Publish Preview Notify me
Home
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)
Subscribe To
Posts
All Comments
Follow by Email
Email address... Submit
Globe statscounter
Total Pageviews
2 2 8 2 1 4 4
...
REVOLVERMAPS
Copyright 2013 2017 D. Comeau Custom Knives. Simple theme. Powered by Blogger.

DIY Knifemaker's Info Center - Heat Treatment Oven Project

Hochgeladen von

Dokumentinformationen

Originaltitel

Copyright

Verfügbare Formate

Dieses Dokument teilen

Dokument teilen oder einbetten

Freigabeoptionen

Stufen Sie dieses Dokument als nützlich ein?

Sind diese Inhalte unangemessen?

Copyright:

Verfügbare Formate

DIY Knifemaker's Info Center - Heat Treatment Oven Project

Hochgeladen von

Copyright:

Verfügbare Formate

8/24/2017 DIY Knifemaker's Info Center: Heat Treatment Oven Project

More Next Blog» velozricardojr@gmail.com Dashboard Sign Out

Comment as: veloz (Google) Sign out

Das könnte Ihnen auch gefallen