Amperage On A Neutural

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SPARKYNSJ 12-04-2009 08:15 PM
amperage on a neutural
I measured the amperage on a neutural that is part of a 3 wire 100 amp panel, 120/240 volt.
One hot carried 21 amps, second leg carried 38amps and the neutural carried 26 amps. Does
this sound normal for the nuetural to carry so much current?
roger 12-04-2009 08:50 PM
Of the current measured on the ungrounded conductors, how much is flowing in L-L loads and
how much is L-N?
Roger
chris kennedy 12-04-2009 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134610)

Of the current measured on the ungrounded conductors, how much is flowing in L-L
loads and how much is L-N?
Roger
Something else is wrong. 38-21=17.
What type tester was used here?
480sparky 12-04-2009 09:28 PM
Maybe some L-N loads got turned on in the middle of the metering.
zbang 12-04-2009 09:35 PM
Actually fed from two legs of 120/208 3-phase?
http://forums.mikeholt.com/printthread.php?t=120522&pp=40 1/14/2010
brian john 12-04-2009 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zbang (Post 1134626)

Sounds logical and mathematical to me!
roger 12-04-2009 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian john (Post 1134635)

Sounds logical and mathematical to me!
As well as myself but, the OP does say "3 wire 100 amp panel, 120/240 volt".
Roger
SG-1 12-04-2009 11:34 PM
Could this be some of a neighbors neutral current ?
Either:
Turn off the main and see if it all goes away.
Or
Measure current on the GEC in the panel.
hardworkingstiff 12-04-2009 11:40 PM
If the panel is fed with 2 phases of a 3-phase wye, then the neutral should be about 33, not 26.
So the amps don't add up for either services.
Did you check the GEC for amperage?
erickench 12-04-2009 11:44 PM
Quote:

Roger
This makes alot of sense.
hardworkingstiff 12-05-2009 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickench (Post 1134675)

Quote:

Of the current measured on the ungrounded conductors, how much is flowing in
L-L loads and how much is L-N?
Roger
Why Eric, does that make so much sense?
roger 12-05-2009 09:35 AM
Quote:

And since it does please explain why.
Roger
roger 12-05-2009 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris kennedy (Post 1134614)

Something else is wrong. 38-21=17.
But knowing how much of the ungrounded current is L-N and how it is divided between the legs
will help in knowing what the neutral load should be and then start looking from there.
Roger
gar 12-05-2009 10:17 AM
091205-0851 EST
SPARKYNSJ:
Additional information is needed.
We really need to know if source is single or three phase. Measure each line to neutral voltage
with a DVM that resolves 0.1 V. Then measure the line to line voltage with the same meter. If
the sum of the two voltages from line to neutral are close to equal to the line to line voltage,
then it is a single phase center tapped transformer supply. If the sum of the two line to neutral
voltages is closer to the line to line voltage divided by 0.866, then it is a 3 phase Y source.
Next remove all loads from the main panel. Measure the current from the ground bus of the
main panel to all grounding paths. Most particularly the water pipe. If there is negligible current,
then the neutral current is a result of loads on the main panel.
If the supply is three phase, both line to neutral voltages are very close in value (like within 1
V), and all loads are resistive, then assuming 120 deg phase difference the neutral current is
about 38 - 0.5*21 = 38 - 10.5 = 27.5 A. Not too far from the 26 A measured.
Separately assume it is really single phase, then an adequate reactive load can cause the same
result.
Quote:

But knowing how much of the ungrounded current is L-N and how it is divided between
the legs will help in knowing what the neutral load should be and then start looking from
there.
Roger
On single-phase distribution, shouldn't the neutral always be A-B=N (use absolute value)? I
don't see how L-N loads affect this since when they(branch circuit neutrals) all hit the busbar,
the service entry N amps would be the difference in the two ungrounded conductors.
roger 12-05-2009 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardworkingstiff (Post 1134809)

On single-phase distribution, shouldn't the neutral always be A-B=N (use absolute
value)? I don't see how L-N loads affect this since when they(branch circuit neutrals) all
hit the busbar, the service entry N amps would be the difference in the two ungrounded
conductors.
Exactly, and when we find out how much of the current is L-L in the ungrounded conductors we
can then figure out how much current "should" be L-N, then we would need to figure out how
these L-N loads are divided between the legs and this would let us know how much current we
"should" be reading on the service neutral.
If the OP hadn't said 120/240 v I would think the three phase scenario would be the answer as
already stated.
Roger
gar 12-05-2009 11:03 AM
091205-0953 EST
hardworkingstiff:
Your statement is correct for resistive loads in the center tapped supply circuit you are assuming.
When you make an ordinary current measurement there is no phase information. Thus, if one
current is shifted in phase relative to the other there will be a different result than that of your
equation.
In fact your equation with the minus sign and using the absolute values of the currents implies
that the two currents flowing into the neutral are 180 deg out of phase.
dkarst 12-05-2009 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar (Post 1134794)

091205-0851 EST
If the supply is three phase, both line to neutral voltages are very close in value (like
within 1 V), and all loads are resistive, then assuming 120 deg phase difference the
neutral current is about 38 - 0.5*21 = 38 - 10.5 = 27.5 A. Not too far from the 26 A
measured.
Maybe I'm slow this morning but for 3 phase assumption it seems like part of phasor math is
missing... shouldn't there be a 21 cos30 ~ 18 component as well for a total of about 32Amps?
Quote:

091205-0953 EST
hardworkingstiff:
Your statement is correct for resistive loads in the center tapped supply circuit you are
assuming.
When you make an ordinary current measurement there is no phase information. Thus, if
one current is shifted in phase relative to the other there will be a different result than
that of your equation.
In fact your equation with the minus sign and using the absolute values of the currents
implies that the two currents flowing into the neutral are 180 deg out of phase.
That (IMO) is the determing factor in a "single-phase" distribution. I've read the many pages on
the discussion of whether 2 legs and a neutral of a WYE is a single-phase distribution, and I still
maintain this view.
How much phase shifting would you expect to see in a residence? I thought that's what the OP
suggested, maybe I missed that.
EDIT: I went to the OP, and it did not mention a residence, so my simplistic review is.....
worthless, :-)
gar 12-05-2009 11:41 AM
091205-1026 EST
dkarst:
If I did it on paper I might get it correct. I only subtracted the inphase component. 33 does
seem to be the approximate value assuming resistive loads from neutral to the lines.
gar 12-05-2009 12:29 PM
091205-118 EST
hardworkingstiff:
Most likely motor loads are a source of phase shift. My freezers run a power factor of about
0.65 .
realolman 12-05-2009 12:39 PM
If every single load was L-N would the neutral have that much current?
roger 12-05-2009 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by realolman (Post 1134871)

If every single load was L-N would the neutral have that much current?
If they were all fed from one leg of single phase or only two phases of a three phase wye.
Roger
Rick Christopherson 12-05-2009 02:01 PM
Quote:

Roger
Mathematically it makes no difference which loads are L-L or L-N unless you are calculating the
neutral current based on the individual powerfactors for each load.
The sum of the currents entering a node is zero. It doesn't matter if they are just passing
through (so to speak) or getting returned on the neutral. (The circuit is a "black box".)
The imbalance in the currents is the result of having multiple powerfactors per load, more
specifically, per phase. The simplest solution is a 47 degree phase shift on the higher leg, but
there could be many combinations of both leading and lagging powerfactors that give the same
result.
roger 12-05-2009 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Christopherson (Post 1134925)

Mathematically it makes no difference which loads are L-L or L-N unless you are
calculating the neutral current based on the individual powerfactors for each load.
Rick, we are not trying to calculate anything, the OP is questioning the neutral current he is
reading, take L-L loads out of the equation and we will have a better starting point.
It would be nice to know if the OP did verify zero sequencing though.
Roger
Cold Fusion 12-05-2009 02:51 PM
Quote:

...verify zero sequencing ...
Roger -
I'm must be short on coffee today. What does that mean?
cf
roger 12-05-2009 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold Fusion (Post 1134951)

Roger -
I'm must be short on coffee today. What does that mean?
cf
Make sure the sum off all conductors equal zero by putting a clamp around all of them. If a
clamp on meter reads current when placed around all the conductors at once I would be looking
into SG-1's (post number 8) suspicion.
Roger
Cold Fusion 12-05-2009 03:16 PM
Quote:

Make sure the sum off all conductors equal zero ---
Of course, thank you
cf
Quote:

Rick, we are not trying to calculate anything, the OP is questioning the neutral current he
is reading, take L-L loads out of the equation and we will have a better starting point.
Whether you realize it or not, you are trying to calculate something. By subtracting out the L-L
loads, all you are doing is, well, subtraction. The core problem remains the same, but you simply
reduce the magnitude of the line currents. It actually makes the problem more complicated than
it needs to be, given the information provided. As I already said, it is applicable only if you know
the powerfactor of individual loads.
Quote:

It would be nice to know if the OP did verify zero sequencing though.
....
If a clamp on meter reads current when placed around all the conductors at once I would
be looking into SG-1's (post number 8) suspicion.
That situation (a super-node) is applicable only if there is ground-neutral bonding at the panel in
question.
If that is in fact the case, then all you have done is forgotten one path into the node. However
the existence of a super-node shared among the neighbors is far less common than electricians
make it out to be. The reason why it gets presented so often is because it is the easy answer to
a situation that those individuals do not fully understand. The easiest way to identify a super-
node is to measure the current in the main ground before and after cutting the main
breaker/disconnect. If there remains current in the ground wire, then you have a super-node.
However, in nearly all cases of single-family residences, the ground current drops to zero when
the main is open. When that happens, then you know absolutely that there is not a super-node
situation.
roger 12-05-2009 04:33 PM
Rick, you are looking at this as an engineer and that is the problem.
An electrician walking into a house will have a few meters and is looking for a reason for the
problem, they ordinarily will not be given time to analyze every circuit so simplifying the task
and coming up with a reasonable / approximate answer is the best way to approach it and
eliminating the L-L loads is a start to this conclusion
Now, if you are on call and available when the OP or our service man needs you, we can take
trouble shooting to a different level. ;)
Roger
erickench 12-05-2009 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardworkingstiff (Post 1134683)

Why Eric, does that make so much sense?
Well for one thing the currents don't add up. 38-21 does not equal 26A.
realolman 12-05-2009 05:21 PM
I'm prone to brain farts, but here's the OP
Quote:
I measured the amperage on a neutural that is part of a 3 wire 100 amp panel, 120/240
volt. One hot carried 21 amps, second leg carried 38amps and the neutural carried 26
amps. Does this sound normal for the nuetural to carry so much current?
If every single load was L-N,( and wouldn't that be the worst possible situation for current on the
neutral) it would not have that much current on the neutral.
If there were ANY L-L loads there would be less on the neutral yet.
So, I'm missing what the L-L loads have to do with it.
It's 4 amps too much for the worst possible situation, with those magnitudes of current on each
phase..
Like I said, I often miss the obvious, but I can't think of a way that the neutral could NORMALLY
carry that much current under the load conditions he described.
I would say it is NOT normal for the OP's neutral to carry that much current.
roger 12-05-2009 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by realolman (Post 1135041)

I would say it is NOT normal for the OP's neutral to carry that much current.
I agree and SG-1 has suggested a possible solution.
http://www.electrical-photos.com/data/500/Neutral2.gif
Roger
erickench 12-05-2009 05:55 PM
Well now that I look at it that does seem like alot of amps on the neutral.
38-21=17A. Where are the additional 9 amps coming from? Non-linear load perhaps?
Quote:

38-21=17A.
Stealing my material??? See post 3 of this thread.:grin:
realolman 12-05-2009 06:08 PM
I guess I just didn't see where the OP asked anything beyond whether there was too much
amperage on the neutral.
That's a nice, very understandable diagram, and quite possible. Maybe probable, even .:)
Quote:

Rick, you are looking at this as an engineer and that is the problem.
No Roger, I am not looking at this as an engineer. It is basic circuit analysis that any electrician
should know, unless of course they stopped teaching electricity to electricians.
Quote:

...they ordinarily will not be given time to analyze every circuit so simplifying the task
and coming up with a reasonable / approximate answer is the best way to approach it
and eliminating the L-L loads is a start to this conclusion
So you're suggesting that 3 circuit paths is more simplified than 2 circuit paths? :-? Is this kind
of like the new math?
In one breath (of the same sentence) you state that they don't have time to analyze every
circuit, and yet you suggest they subtract out the L-L currents from the measured feed currents.
So how are they supposed to do that without analyzing all of those circuits? (I certainly hope you
wouldn't suggest they start flipping breakers on active loads just to suit their curiosity.)
What you are not understanding is that figuring out the problem is EXACTLY the same regardless
whether there are any L-L loads or not. It makes absolutely no difference to figuring it out. By
trying to eliminate the L-L current, you are actually making the problem more complicated, not
less complicated.
roger 12-05-2009 06:46 PM
Rick, you've been putting that reply together for over an hour, I will have to conceed that I have
made this complicated. :grin:
Roger
SG-1 12-05-2009 10:47 PM
It is not so much that I supect an open neutral somewhere as much as I think the first step
should be to determine where the extra neutral current is originating. The numbers do not match
simple Single or 3-Phase calculations.
Is the extra 10 Amps being generated by the premisis wiring & loads or is it part of somebody
elses load that is just passing through ?
erickench 12-05-2009 11:14 PM
If there were actual L-L loads the unbalance obtained by subtracting would be more than the
measured value of the neutral and not less. That's what's so strange about this problem.:-?
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SG-1 12-05-2009 11:45 PM
Quote:

If there were actual L-L loads the unbalance obtained by subtracting would be more than
the measured value of the neutral and not less. That's what's so strange about this
problem.:-?
I should have said unaccounted for 10Amps, instead of the additional 10Amps.
erickench 12-06-2009 12:07 AM
It has to be nonlinear loads. There is no other explanation.
benaround 12-06-2009 02:27 AM
Quote:

It has to be nonlinear loads. There is no other explanation.
What would you get if a 2 pole electric water heater had one element broken close
enough to the grounded metal tank that current would flow from phase to egc ?
Maybe 9 amps ?
This is not an uncommon occurance.
Besoeker 12-06-2009 06:26 AM
Quote:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/printthread.php?t=120522&pp=40&page=2 1/14/2010

091205-0953 EST
hardworkingstiff:
Your statement is correct for resistive loads in the center tapped supply circuit you are
assuming.
When you make an ordinary current measurement there is no phase information. Thus, if
one current is shifted in phase relative to the other there will be a different result than
that of your equation.
In fact your equation with the minus sign and using the absolute values of the currents
implies that the two currents flowing into the neutral are 180 deg out of phase.
I agree.
If one L-N load is unity power factor and the other about 0.76 lagging, the neutral current would
be 26A as measured.
Dennis Alwon 12-06-2009 07:54 AM
Well I am confused. I noticed that this is a single phase being fed from a 3 phases system. Chris
says why isn't the neutral calculated as L1-L2= 17.
My question is wouldn't you calculate the neutral current based on a 3 phase calculation since it
is a 3 phase power source. Thus we would use L1 at 38, L2 at 21 and L3 at 0. This would give us
33 amps. Why the difference I don't know.
boboelectric 12-06-2009 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARKYNSJ (Post 1134581)

I measured the amperage on a neutural that is part of a 3 wire 100 amp panel, 120/240
volt. One hot carried 21 amps, second leg carried 38amps and the neutural carried 26
amps. Does this sound normal for the nuetural to carry so much current?
never saw him again.
Besoeker 12-06-2009 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon (Post 1135275)
Well I am confused. I noticed that this is a single phase being fed from a 3 phases
system. Chris says why isn't the neutral calculated as L1-L2= 17.
My question is wouldn't you calculate the neutral current based on a 3 phase calculation
since it is a 3 phase power source. Thus we would use L1 at 38, L2 at 21 and L3 at 0.
This would give us 33 amps. Why the difference I don't know.
From the OP:

Quote:
3 wire 100 amp panel, 120/240 volt
This I took to mean a centre tapped 120-0-120 supply giving L1, L2, and N as the three wires.
I don't think there any mention of it being three phase.
Dennis Alwon 12-06-2009 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Besoeker (Post 1135279)

From the OP:
This I took to mean a centre tapped 120-0-120 supply giving L1, L2, and N as the three
wires.
I don't think there any mention of it being three phase.
You're correct. I read Zbang's post and I didn't realize his post was a question- I thought it was
fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zbang

realolman 12-06-2009 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaround (Post 1135240)

What would you get if a 2 pole electric water heater had one element broken close
enough to the grounded metal tank that current would flow from phase to egc ?
Maybe 9 amps ?
This is not an uncommon occurance.
The resistive heating element is surrounded by grounded conductive material, so that certainly
sounds to me like something that would be possible.
Assume a water heater element broke exactly in half and became grounded. The ECG would then
carry the current of each half the element connected between phase and ground... 120 VAC
divided by each half the element's resistance.
If both broken ends were to become grounded, it seems to me the circuit would behave similarly
to a MWBC and the ECG current would be zero. If only one end of the element became
grounded, and the other isolated, the EGC would carry the current of 120V divided by 1/2 the
element's total resistance.
I started out to post that I thought the water heater element scenario would be plausible, but I
think I have talked myself into thinking that if a water heater element broke somewhere along
it's length you would likely get some sort of EGC current, but it would not cause the neutral
current to rise to levels above normal operation, comparing phase currents to neutral current.:)
SG-1 12-06-2009 05:45 PM
Suppose the water heater has a metal pipe ? Now the current can flow through the pipe to the
GEC connection. Only it has to be the neighbors water heater.
Suppose there is another electrical system in the same facility and someone accidentally
switched neutrals on a branch circuit between them ?
mull982 12-07-2009 09:30 AM
Quote:

I agree.
If one L-N load is unity power factor and the other about 0.76 lagging, the neutral
current would be 26A as measured.
Can you show the work for how you arrived at this answer?
Besoeker 12-07-2009 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mull982 (Post 1135568)
Can you show the work for how you arrived at this answer?
It's a bit difficult to give detail here.

The reverse calculation is a little easier to show. Figures are rounded to three or four decimal
places.
I took the 21A to be Ia at unity and the 38A to be Ib at 0.7575 pf lagging.

This gives an angle of 0.7113 radians (or 40.75 deg).
Using Id and Iq to stand for in-phase and quadrature components:
Ia is at unity so has only an Id component of 21A

Ib has an Id component of 38*cos(0.7113) giving an Id value of 28.79A.
Net Id in the neutral is thus (21-28.79) or -7.79A.
The Iq component of Ib is 38*sin(0.7113) giving an Iq value of 24.81A

Total neutral current is sqrt((-7.79)^2 + (24.81)^2)
Which is 26A.
Sorry. That's much too turgid.

I'll present it in graphical form shortly.
mull982 12-07-2009 02:29 PM
Quote:

It's a bit difficult to give detail here.
The reverse calculation is a little easier to show. Figures are rounded to three or four
decimal places.
I took the 21A to be Ia at unity and the 38A to be Ib at 0.7575 pf lagging.

This gives an angle of 0.7113 radians (or 40.75 deg).
Using Id and Iq to stand for in-phase and quadrature components:
Ia is at unity so has only an Id component of 21A

Ib has an Id component of 38*cos(0.7113) giving an Id value of 28.79A.
Net Id in the neutral is thus (21-28.79) or -7.79A.
The Iq component of Ib is 38*sin(0.7113) giving an Iq value of 24.81A

Total neutral current is sqrt((-7.79)^2 + (24.81)^2)
Which is 26A.
Sorry. That's much too turgid.

I'll present it in graphical form shortly.
I follow your math. I'm assuming that your math is referring to a 120/240V single phase service.
The only question I have is weather or not the 40.75 deg angle you calculated from p.f. has to
be added or subtracted from the Ib unity current which is at 180deg difference from Ia? Since
the unity Ia current would be at 0deg wouldn't the unity Ib current be at -180deg and thus the
Ib current with the p.f. considered by 40deg +/- the unity Ib current?
dkarst 12-07-2009 03:11 PM
I'll probably mess everything up hopping in here but and it is certainly easier looking at a phasor
diagram but if you assume Va @ 0 degrees and Vb at -180 degrees, then Ia = 21 /_ 0 = 21 +j0
in rectangular.
Assume Ib lags Vb by the ~40 degrees (draw in 2nd quadrant) then Ib = 38 /_ -220 = -28.8 +
j24.8
Now you can draw resultant which is -7.8 + j 24.8 with a magnitude of ~ 26Amps. Math
assumes 120/240 single phase. Apologies if this doesn't help. I rounded the numbers to simplify.
Besoeker 12-07-2009 03:16 PM
Quote:

I follow your math. I'm assuming that your math is referring to a 120/240V single phase
service.
Yes. 120-0-120.
Quote:

Since the unity Ia current would be at 0deg wouldn't the unity Ib current be at -180deg
It would. "Net Id in the neutral is thus (21-28.79) or -7.79A." accounts for that.
Besoeker 12-07-2009 03:18 PM
The graphical representation I promised in post #52.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ralcurrent.jpg
skeshesh 12-07-2009 04:00 PM
To be honest I find the mathematical statement pretty easy to follow and more clear than the
sinusiodal representation. I think that's a decent explanation. Of course I don't think Ia is simply
at PF of unity, but a combination of power factor differences on Ia/Ib could account for it. I also
see reason in the GEC path delivering current to the neutral. It's really difficult to rate either
possibility as definitly more probable than the other since we really don't have that much
information about the system and connected components. But I think ultimately to answer the
OP question, this neutral current can possibly exist due to power factor issues, but I'd say,
considering the magnitude as well as the numerous responses generated by this forum, that it
needs to be checked out, so I wouldn't just disregard it.
Besoeker 12-07-2009 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeshesh (Post 1135706)

Of course I don't think Ia is simply at PF of unity, but a combination of power factor
differences on Ia/Ib could account for it.
Quite so.
A at 0.95 lead, B at 0.92 lag

A at 0.96 lag, B at 0.91 lead
A at 0.77 lag, B at unity.
I gave just one example of an infinite number of solutions.
mull982 12-07-2009 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkarst (Post 1135693)

I'll probably mess everything up hopping in here but and it is certainly easier looking at a
phasor diagram but if you assume Va @ 0 degrees and Vb at -180 degrees, then Ia =
21 /_ 0 = 21 +j0 in rectangular.
Assume Ib lags Vb by the ~40 degrees (draw in 2nd quadrant) then Ib = 38 /_ -220 = -
28.8 + j24.8
Now you can draw resultant which is -7.8 + j 24.8 with a magnitude of ~ 26Amps. Math
assumes 120/240 single phase. Apologies if this doesn't help. I rounded the numbers to
simplify.
This solution approach makes more sense to me since I am able to see the 40deg phase shift
from Vb leading to an current angle of -220deg.
skeshesh 12-07-2009 05:04 PM
Quote:
I gave just one example of an infinite number of solutions.
Of course. I was just pointing it out for others who may be wondering. Your example
demonstrated your point quite clearly and I understand your choice of unity for Ia PF for ease of
calculation/demonstration.
I think it's probably necessary as some others suggested to check the ground path. As one
poster pointed out the first step would be to see if the neutral is bonded to the ground at the
panel in question. While this possibility might be slim, the current path through the grounding
conductor could energize metallic surfaces and be quite a hazard. I'm not an electrician but I
would say it's a good idea to check to prevent possible liability.
gmtt 12-08-2009 05:35 PM
SPARKYNSJ , what makes you think it is too much current thru the neutral? The neutral current
of the panel is the vector sum of the two-phase currents and I won't discount any value you
measured in the neutral line.
Let's say, of the VA at an angle 0 deg, VB at angle 120 deg and VC at angle -120 deg from a Y
transformer, phases VA and VC are connected to the panel in question. Let's say phase A load is
pure resistive such that phase A current is IA at angle 0 and phase C load is pure inductive such
that the phase C current is IC at angle –30 deg. Adding IA at angle 0 and IC at angle –30 will
result a substantial amount current flowing thru the panel neutral wire.
FWIW, I received a PM from the OP stating that this is indeed 2 ungrounded and the grounded
conductors of a 208y/120 system.
roger 12-08-2009 06:40 PM
Quote:

FWIW, I received a PM from the OP stating that this is indeed 2 ungrounded and the
grounded conductors of a 208y/120 system.
That makes more sense.
Roger
Dennis Alwon 12-08-2009 06:45 PM
Quote:

I guess I sensed it. :D
Quote:

Your my favorite superhero.
SPARKYNSJ 12-08-2009 07:59 PM
i measured the amperage again. The panel is being fed from a 3 phase 4 wire 120/208 main.
The subpanel is being fed by a 70 amp breaker w/ 2 2/0's hots and 1 2/0 neutural. one hot has
22 amps the other 41, the neutral is carrying 30-35 amps. how is this possible? Always thought
that the neutural would carry the difference between both hots..
LarryFine 12-08-2009 08:05 PM
Quote:

A human non-contact voltage tester. :)
roger 12-08-2009 08:29 PM
Quote:

i measured the amperage again. The panel is being fed from a 3 phase 4 wire 120/208
main. The subpanel is being fed by a 70 amp breaker w/ 2 2/0's hots and 1 2/0 neutural.
one hot has 22 amps the other 41, the neutral is carrying 30-35 amps. how is this
possible? Always thought that the neutural would carry the difference between both
hots..
You would be correct if you were dealing with a single phase 120/240 volt system but, since you
are dealing with a wye you would have to figure it as follows.
SQRT I²A + I²B - (IA x IB)
SQRT 22 x 22 + 41 x 41 - (22 x 41)
SQRT 484 + 1681 - 902
SQRT 2165 - 902 = 1263
SQRT 1263 = 35.54 amps
Roger
gar 12-08-2009 10:36 PM
091208-2116 EST
SPARKYNSJ:
If you draw a vector diagram and assume both phases only have resistive loads from the hot
lines to neutral and the phases are 120 deg apart, then the result is:
Draw a vertical line P1 to P2 with a length of 41. Classify P1 as the south end and P2 as the
north end. Next draw a line from P2 to the south-east with an included angle of 60 deg between
this new vector, called P2 to P3, and the vector P1-P2. Make P2-P3 with a length of 22. Now
measure the length from point P1 to point P3. Its value is 35.54871, and this corresponds to
your reading of 35 A. The phase angle of the current in the neutral is 90-57.6 = 33.4 deg from
the voltage P2 to P1.
Smart $ 12-08-2009 10:56 PM
Quote:

... Always thought that the neutural would carry the difference between both hots..
Electrically it carries the unbalanced current. When the current through the "hots" is in phase
through a neutral-connected junction, the amount of current directed through the neutral
conductor is exactly the arithmetic difference. The more the "hots" currents are out of phase
through the neutral-connected junction, the less mutual current there is going through the "hot"
conductors, so the neutral conductor has to make up for that.
In your case, the voltages are 120° out of phase with respect to the neutral. The respective
"hot" currents will likely be out-of-phase accordingly, handling the same type of load (i.e. having
nearly the same power factor). This is why you get the sum for neutral current if both "hots" are
connected to the same phase. Being 120° out-of-phase yields a neutral current somewhere in
between the arithmetic sum and difference.
Roger has given an example of the basic math solution... but such method does not account for
differing power factors.
jghrist 12-09-2009 12:00 AM
Quote:

So we have about 60 posts based on the OP saying "3 wire 100 amp panel, 120/240 volt" and
now he PMs you to say it is completely different?
I say we let him figure it out himself.
SPARKYNSJ 12-09-2009 09:33 AM
Neutural
Thanks for the answers guys.. I have to study them to fully understand the math. Thanks again.
mull982 12-09-2009 02:41 PM
Quote:

091208-2116 EST
SPARKYNSJ:
If you draw a vector diagram and assume both phases only have resistive loads from the
hot lines to neutral and the phases are 120 deg apart, then the result is:
Draw a vertical line P1 to P2 with a length of 41. Classify P1 as the south end and P2 as
the north end. Next draw a line from P2 to the south-east with an included angle of 60
deg between this new vector, called P2 to P3, and the vector P1-P2. Make P2-P3 with a
length of 22. Now measure the length from point P1 to point P3. Its value is 35.54871,
and this corresponds to your reading of 35 A. The phase angle of the current in the
neutral is 90-57.6 = 33.4 deg from the voltage P2 to P1.
Shouldn't the included angle between these two vectors be 120deg instead of 60deg due to the
fact that they are L-N loads?
Smart $ 12-09-2009 03:28 PM
Quote:

Shouldn't the included angle between these two vectors be 120deg instead of 60deg due
to the fact that they are L-N loads?
120° when tail to tail... but when doing vector addition graphically, they are arranged tail to
head and thus a 60° included angle.
mull982 12-09-2009 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart $ (Post 1136658)

120° when tail to tail... but when doing vector addition graphically, they are arranged tail
to head and thus a 60° included angle.
Yup you are right that is my mistake.
gar 12-09-2009 10:11 PM
091209-2110 EST
mull982:
Try to visualize it this way:
Two sine waves are being added together.
Call the angle of the vector P1-P2 0 deg and indicate phasing by putting an arrow at the P2 end.
Next create a second vector P2'-P3 with its arrow at P3. This vector is at an angle of -120 deg
relative to the first vector. To add these two move P2'-P3 so that P2' is coincident with P2.
The resultant current vector is P1-P3.
You can turn these three vectors into two right triangles. From this you can solve for the
magnitude and angle of P1-P3 relative to P1-P2. Or you can use a CAD program for a graphical
solution.
Consider the case where the 120 deg is changed to 180 and you will see that the second vector
is parallel to the first and in the opposite direction. Thus, the magnitude of the second subtracts
from the first.
Another way:
Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ric_identities
A little more than half way down the long page, and just above "Other sums of trigonometric
functions" find the sentence "More generally, for an arbitrary phase shift, we have", and you will
see the equation for the sum of two sine waves of different amplitude and phase shift. Note: the
vector diagram is easier.
gar 12-10-2009 11:55 PM
091210-2250 EST
A question for you to consider.
Why is it possible to use vector math to solve problems about the relationship of sine waves of
the same frequency but possibly of different amplitudes and phases?
To answer this consider what is the result of of adding sine waves of the same frequency. My
previous post may give a hint.
paulcbrowne 01-14-2010 11:03 AM
Check for harmonics
You didn't say what your 3rd leg measured. It sound liek your legs are not balanced.
I have measured this sort of imbalance with computer equipment, particularly with older
switching power supplies. Usually, it's a phenomenon measurable only in the 3rd order
harmonics using something like a Fluke Power Quality meter.
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Mike Holt's Forum - amperage on a neutural Page 1 of 13

Mike Holt's Forum (http://forums.mikeholt.com/index.php)

SPARKYNSJ 12-04-2009 08:15 PM

roger 12-04-2009 08:50 PM

chris kennedy 12-04-2009 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134610)

Something else is wrong. 38-21=17.

What type tester was used here?

480sparky 12-04-2009 09:28 PM

zbang 12-04-2009 09:35 PM

Actually fed from two legs of 120/208 3-phase?

brian john 12-04-2009 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by zbang (Post 1134626)

Sounds logical and mathematical to me!

roger 12-04-2009 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by brian john (Post 1134635)

SG-1 12-04-2009 11:34 PM

Could this be some of a neighbors neutral current ?

Turn off the main and see if it all goes away.

Measure current on the GEC in the panel.

hardworkingstiff 12-04-2009 11:40 PM

Did you check the GEC for amperage?

erickench 12-04-2009 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134610)

This makes alot of sense.

hardworkingstiff 12-05-2009 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by erickench (Post 1134675)

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134610)

This makes alot of sense.

Why Eric, does that make so much sense?

roger 12-05-2009 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by erickench (Post 1134675)

And since it does please explain why.

roger 12-05-2009 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by chris kennedy (Post 1134614)

gar 12-05-2009 10:17 AM

Additional information is needed.

hardworkingstiff 12-05-2009 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134778)

roger 12-05-2009 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by hardworkingstiff (Post 1134809)

gar 12-05-2009 11:03 AM

dkarst 12-05-2009 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by gar (Post 1134794)

hardworkingstiff 12-05-2009 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by gar (Post 1134829)

gar 12-05-2009 11:41 AM

gar 12-05-2009 12:29 PM

realolman 12-05-2009 12:39 PM

roger 12-05-2009 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by realolman (Post 1134871)

Rick Christopherson 12-05-2009 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134610)

roger 12-05-2009 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Rick Christopherson (Post 1134925)

It would be nice to know if the OP did verify zero sequencing though.

Cold Fusion 12-05-2009 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134943)

roger 12-05-2009 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Cold Fusion (Post 1134951)

Cold Fusion 12-05-2009 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by roger (Post 1134969)