Strange SNR vs RSSI

End Devices (Nodes)

Understanding RSSI
What is RSSI and what does it mean for a WiFi network?
RSSI, or “Received Signal Strength Indicator,” is a measurement
of how well your device can hear a signal from an access point or
router. It’s a value that is useful for determining if you have
enough signal to get a good wireless connection.

Note: Because an RSSI value is pulled from the client device’s

WiFi card (hence “received” signal strength), it is not the same as
transmit power from a router or AP.

Hello,

I’m experimenting with a gateway from Microchip and two end devices. One end device is the
RN2903 and the other a RFM95.
From the RN2903 I get the following metadata back:

Blockquote
{
“time”: “2017-10-26T17:53:58.188348101Z”,
“frequency”: 903.3,
“modulation”: “LORA”,
“data_rate”: “SF7BW125”,
“coding_rate”: “4/5”,
“gateways”: [
{
“gtw_id”: “eui-fdae574836ffa1ba”,
“timestamp”: 1328468668,
“time”: “”,
“channel”: 5,
“rssi”: -33,
“snr”: 8,
“rf_chain”: 1
}
]
}

In this case my rssi is -33dB and snr is 8dB. But how do they relate to each other? Does this mean
my noise floor is ate -33 - 8 = -41dB? In my experience this noise floor of -41dB is pretty high.
 From the RFM95 I get the following metadata back:

Blockquote
{
“time”: “2017-10-26T17:50:43.683963304Z”,
“frequency”: 903.1,
“modulation”: “LORA”,
“data_rate”: “SF10BW125”,
“coding_rate”: “4/5”,
“gateways”: [
{
“gtw_id”: “eui-fdae574836ffa1ba”,
“timestamp”: 1133024164,
“time”: “”,
“channel”: 4,
“rssi”: -52,
“snr”: 11,
“rf_chain”: 1
}
]
}

In this case -52 - 11 = -63dB noise floor? Can anyone explain what i’m missing? Is there any tutorial
or article about this?
Thanks

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Oct '17

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Oct '17

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BoRRoZ
Oct '17
you’re missing nothing.
that are realistic numbers when you are close (within 10 meters) from your gateway

RSSI always a value between -30 ( very close) and - 120

SNR 0 is noise floor… max = 10

* note the difference in datarate between the 2 nodes

fab_2solvemenno faber
Oct '17
Oke. So a SNR > 10 is not possible or is not shown?

*Yes both nodes are at different data rates (SF7 and SF10), but how is this influencing the RSSI and
SNR?

BoRRoZ
Oct '17
if you google for ’ RSSI vs SNR ’ you’ll find much info
fab_2solvemenno faber
Oct '17
BoRRoZ:

RSSI vs SNR

I did this and i found the same image. The image is clear, but still i’m a little confused.

In the first nodes TX I got “-33 - 8 = -41dB” and in the second node TX I got -52 - 11 = -63dB noise
floor. I understand the noise floor is not a constant, but why is there such a big difference between
the first and the second. Distance to the gateway, time and other variables are basicly the same. Is
the date rate influencing that much? I would expect the noise floor more or less around -90dBm, not
-41dBm or -63dBm.

BoRRoZ
Oct '17
presumably the output power of your 2 nodes is not the same and/or the antenna’s used

fab_2solvemenno faber
Oct '17
Tomorrow I will confirm this. Anyway thanks for your help

dc2mw
Oct '17
1
In order to prevent overloading in presence of strong RF input signals, the LoRa-module will
attentuate strong input signals down to a level that is ok for further processing/decoding.
Additional attentuation in the RF path will raise the noise floor the receiver sees.
Of course that noise level is different from the “true” noise level at the antenna port und depends on
applied automatic gain control (AGC) attentuation.

Rule of thumb: do not perform noise calculations with SNR and RSSI readings if SNR > 0 dB

2 Likes

fab_2solvemenno faber
Oct '17
@dc2mw Thanks, this explains a lot.

LoRaTracker
Oct '17
With very strong signals, its clear the reported SNR does not relate to real SNR.

Noise level, as seen by the receiver is typically -105dBm, so with an RSSI of -33dB you might
expect, but do not get, a reported SNR of +70dB or so.

When the signals are very much weaker, then the reported SNR value seems to be correct. Thus if
you are using a TX power that gives an SNR of say +5dB and you reduce the TX power by 10dB,
you would see the reported SNR drop to -5dB.

It all seems consistent if you work from the weakest signal point upwards, with strong local signals
you really need to ignore the SNR.

1 Reply
1 Like

hobo
Oct '17
http://semtech.force.com/lora/LC_Answers_Questions?id=90644000000PmGvAAK32

dc2mw
Oct '17
LoRaTracker
You can go for packets that are well below SNR 0 (up to SNR +5 never worked well for that) and
calculate the noise levels from LoRa measurements and plot this as a function of time.
Sorry for the “strange” time scale
0 = midnight and you have to count hours from that point.

MMN.png1200x900 39.2 KB

Reported SNR at about 8:00 AM to 1:00 PM is degraded by about 5 dB in comparison to “quiet”

periods (169 and 868).
There is no strong relationship between RSSI and SNR because N is not constant and depends on
location and time of day.

How to read RSSI/signal and SNR/noise ratings ?

Tags: RSSI, SNR, dBm, Wi-Fi

Signal (a.k.a. RSSI) is the usable strength of the radio waves, expressed in decibels
between 0db (strongest) and -120db (weakest). Smaller negative numbers represent a
cleaner/stronger signal. For wireless data communications, normal range is -45db to -87db.
Anything below -85db is generally unusable, and over -50db can be considered perfect.
Notes:
RSSI values can be different depending on the chip vendor. Cisco can use range between 0
to -100, Atheros may use 0 to -127.
EIRP (Effective Isotropic Radiated Power) is the actual amount of signal leaving the
antenna, measured in db. EIRP = Tx power (dBm) + antenna gain (dBi) - cable loss (dB).

Noise (dBm) in wireless communications is a combination of all unwanted interfering signal

sources, such as crosstalk, radio frequency interference, distortion, etc. This value is
measured in decibels from zero to -120. The closer this value is to -120, the better, because
that means there is little to no interference. Typical environments range between -100db
and -80db.

Signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is defined as the power ratio between a signal (meaningful
information) and the background noise (unwanted signal): SNR = signal / noise
The more commonly used SNR margin, as described below is sometimes abbreviated as
simply SNR as well.

SNR margin (dB, a.k.a. noise margin) is the ratio by which the signal exceeds the minimum
acceptable amount (minimum SNR) to sustain a certain speed. It is normally measured in
decibels. SNR margin is often confused and used interchangeably with SNR.
Many DSL modems and wireless devices (notably dd-wrt open source router firmware)
use SNR margin, only denoted as "SNR". SNR margin is simply calculating the difference
between signal (RSSI) and noise to get the SNR margin as a positive number expressed in
db.

SNR margin = signal(dBm) - noise(dBm)

For example, if singal (RSSI) = -55db, and noise = -85db, then:
(-55db signal) - (-85db noise) = 30 SNR margin

Higher SNR/SNR margin numbers represent cleaner signals, with less noise. Utilizing full
54 Mbps data rate, for example requires at least 25 dB of SNR margin.

Signal Quality this is a percent value between 0% and 100%, with the higher numbers
representing better link quality. It is the percentage of the best theoretical ideal quality in
regards to your local noise. It can be calculated differently, depending on the OS/device
used. It is based on signal strength and SNR margin. Generally, signal quality above 25-
30% is usable.

See also: How does RSSI relate to signal quality ?

Notes:
The TX(transmit) power of a device, as well as antennas attached to it both factor into the
signal level.
Some devices can display both the actual SNR, and the SNR margin as a separate value.

User Reviews/Comments:
rate:

-- rating --

avg:

by anonymous - 2015-12-01 11:31

Signal (a.k.a. RSSI) is the usable strength of the radio waves, expressed in decibels between 0dBm

(strongest) and -120dBm (weakest). Smaller negative numbers represent a cleaner/stronger signal.

For wireless data communications, normal range is -45dBm to -87dBm. Anything below -85dBm is

generally unusable, and over -50dBm can be considered perfect.

Notes:
RSSI values can be different depending on the chip vendor. Cisco can use range between 0 to -100dBm,

Atheros may use 0 dBm to -127 dBm.

by RAVI - 2016-03-30 08:58

So while calcualting the SNR , will the numerator be EIRP ?

by anonymous - 2016-09-10 00:35

No. EIRP is Effective Isotropic Radiated Power – the power radiated from the transmitting station if

radiated by a hypothetical isotropic antenna. In real life EIRP is a calculated value based on transmitter

power output and taking into account transmission line losses and the real antenna's radiation pattern.

To calculate SNR at the receiver you need the signal strength of the received signal and the noise floor

at the receiver at the frequency of the received signal.

It’s helpful to know how good the LoRa signals you are receiving are, or perhaps more
importantly how close the are to failure.
The LoRa device measures two things during packet reception, the received signal strength
indicator (RSSI) measured in dBm, and the signal to noise ratio (SNR) measured in dB.
SNR
From practical experiments I have observed that as the reported SNR approaches the limit
specified for the spreading factor (SF8) then the packet reception will start to fail.
For instance at SF8 the SNR limit is -10dB. If your transmitting packets and they are being
received at SNR of -0dB and you then reduce transmit power by 8 or 9dBm, the reported SNR
will drop to around -9dB and packet reception starts to fail. I have found the reported SNR a very
good indication of approaching reception failure.
RSSI
Under very good reception conditions, with strong signals, the reported SNR rarely goes above
8dB, even as signals get stronger. So for very strong signals SNR is not a good indicator of
signal quality.
I decided to plot the results of a large variety of reception conditions, at SF7 bandwidth
125000hz. The signals varied from very strong, the transmitter and receiver close together, to
very weak signals where packet reception was failing. I plotted the results, see the graph below.

You can see the spread of reported RSSI for SNRs of 10,9 and 8, the range is -45dBm to -
105dBm. So clearly SNR is not a lot of help for giving a quality indication for very strong
signals.
But then look what happens as the SNR drops, at the failure point, -8dB SNR and below, the
RSSI varies from -100dBm to -120dBm.
For an overall quality indicator, perhaps a compromise is needed. If the SNR is say 7dB or
higher, use the RSSI figure, and if SNR is lower than 7dB, use the SNR.
Just a thought.
BOOKMARK THE PERMALINK.
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One thought on “LoRa Signal Quality – RSSI or SNR?”

1. Lawrence Griffiths says:

2nd February 2018 at 6:27 pm

STUARTROBINSON
Stuart thanks for your posts I’m not a RF guy but do a lot with LoRaWAN in the built environment.
See first responce from Semtech for full response
“You just have to consider that SNR is “suffucient” when over 5dB, and then just rely on RSSI.”

http://semtech.force.com/lora/LC_Answers_Questions?id=90644000000PmGvAAK
Lawrence

ealistic figure for Received Signal Strength

We did extensive measurements with a number of motes at different locations and two gateways.
20k packets have been transmitted. We wish to make an estimate of the 'real' received signal
strength as the reported RSSI has a lower limit at about -123dBm (reported by our Kerlink Wirnet
gateways). Around this point the SNR can drop below 0dB. So, the actual signal would be below the
-123dBm.

What would a realistic figure be for received signal strength? I would expect:

RSS = RSSI if SNR > 0, otherwise it is RSSI + SNR

Is this correct?

Also:
For signals with an RSSI > 100dBm, the SNR seems to top in the range of 7-14dB.
What limits the SNR to this range, as I would expect to continue to increase with RSSI?

Best Answer chosen by Vincent van Beveren

Sebastien (Semtech Corporation)

Hi Vincent,

Thecalculation you are proposing is mostly right, and is the simplification we actually propose in our
drivers and documentation. It may be made better when SNR is close to 0 (energies sum up), but
this approxximation is good enough.

Concerning the SNR, by implementation choice is tails off when it becomes quite positive. You just
have to consider that SNR is "suffucient" when over 5dB, and then just rely on RSSI.

Actually, in your calculation, a better description would be "packet power" instead of RSSI, which is
effectively what you are trying to quantify.

Follow up to this we are trying to set threshold alerts for RSSI

So for 125 kHz bandwidth SX1276/77/78/79 where would set an warning and action level. For
example I have one sensor on SF8 125k and is faling off a LoRaWAN net just over -112.2 RSSI

SF = 6 -118
SF = 7 -123
SF = 8 -126
SF = 9 -129
SF = 10 -132
SF = 11 -133
SF = 12 -136

Thanks

Lawrence