Jaiva Dharma 2010

Jaiva-dharma
January 4, 2010
Sri Jaiva-Dharma
The Universal Religion
by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura
Table of Contents:
Chapter One
The Soul's Eternal and Temporary Natures...............................................................................................................
Chapter Two
The Soul's Eternal Nature is Pure and Everlasting....................................................................................................
Chapter Three
The Soul's Temporary Duties are Imperfect, Horrible, Contaminated and Short lived ...........................................
Chapter Four
Another Name for the Eternal Religion is the Vaisnava Religion .............................................................................
Chapter Five
Vaidhi-bhakti — the Eternal Religion. It is Not Temporary. ...................................................................................
Chapter Six
Eternal Religion and the Differences of Caste............................................................................................................
Chapter Seven
Eternal Duties, Household Life, and the Material World ..........................................................................................
Chapter Eight
Eternal Religion and Ordinary Activities ...................................................................................................................
Chapter Nine
Eternal Religion and Modern Science-Civilization.....................................................................................................
Chapter Ten
Eternal Religion and History ......................................................................................................................................
Chapter Eleven
Eternal Religion and Byut-parasta or Deity Worship.................................................................................................
Chapter Twelve
Eternal Religion and Devotional Service in Practice..................................................................................................
Chapter Thirteen
Eternal Religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana (Evidence and Truth) ................................................
Chapter Fourteen
Eternal Religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya, and Prayojana (The Lord's Potencies) .............................................
Chapter Fifteen
Eternal Religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana (The Individual Spirit Souls) ....................................
Chapter Sixteen
Eternal Religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana
(The Individual Souls Swallowed by Maya) ...............................................................................................................
Chapter Seventeen
(The Souls Free From Maya's Prison)........................................................................................................................
Chapter Eighteen
(Simultaneous Oneness and Difference) ....................................................................................................................
Chapter Nineteen
Eternal Religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana (Abhidheya) ...............................................................
Chapter Twenty
(Abhidheya: Vaidha-sadhana-bhakti).........................................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-one
(Abhidheya: Raganuga-sadhana-bhakti).....................................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-two
(The Discussion of Prayojana Begins)........................................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-three
(The Discussion of the Holy Name Begins)...............................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-four
Eternal religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana (Offenses to the Holy name) ......................................
Chapter Twenty-five
Eternal religion and Sambandha, Abhidheya and Prayojana (Offenses to the Holy name) ......................................
Chapter Twenty-six
The Discussion of Rasa Begins ...................................................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-seven
The Rasas ....................................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-eight
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The Rasas ....................................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Twenty-nine
The Rasas ....................................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty
The Rasas ....................................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-one
Madhura-rasa...............................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-two
Madhura-rasa...............................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-three
Madhura-rasa...............................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-four
Madhura-rasa...............................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-five
Madhura-rasa...............................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-six
Madhura-rasa...............................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-seven
Srngara-rasa (Madhura-rasa) ......................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-eight
Srngara-rasa.................................................................................................................................................................
Chapter Thirty-nine
Entering the Lord’s Pastimes ......................................................................................................................................
Chapter Forty
The Greatest Good Fortune........................................................................................................................................
Introduction
Jaiva-dharma is a Vaisnava novel written in Bengali prose. Most of the book is very
philosophical consisting of a dialogue of questions answers between the characters of the
book. The book is primarily based on two books of Srila Rupa Goswami, Bhakti-rasamrta-
sindhu and Ujjvala-nilamani. These two books are accepted as the most important
authoritative books on rasa-tattva. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has taken the essential
understanding of these books, presented them in an easy to read story format. Simply by
reading Jaiva-dharma the serious student of bhakti can understand the intricacies of the
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soul’s eternal relationship with the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
Sri Krsna.
The precise meaning of jaiva-dharma is given in the book itself as follows: the activity of
such pure souls is called bhakti, devotional service. Hari-bhakti, devotional service to Lord
Hari, is also called by the name suddha-vaisnava-dharma – pure Vaisnava religion, nitya-
dharma – eternal religion, jaiva-dharma – duty of the individual souls, bhagavata dharma –
religion of worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, paramartha-dharma – way to
obtain the final goal of life, and para-dharma – highest religion.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura must be recognized as the devotee who totally revitalized
the movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, although the Thakura is especially for his
having rediscovered the site of Lord Caitanya’s birth. In fact, he practically rediscovered
and reestablished Lord Caitanya’s movement, which was obscured by the cultural and
religious chauvinism of the ruling British and discredited by the perverse and useless
activities of a number of sahajiya sects and other groups with motivated, concocted
philosophies. It is often pointed out that it as he who made the prediction that the day
would come when devotees from around the world would congregate at Sridhama Mayapur
chanting the holy name of the Lord. In his youth Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura took an
interest in Western philosophy and literature and only gradually came to the path of pure
devotional service to the Lord. This is mirrored in Jaiva-dharma, which embodies the mood
of the staunch preacher of Krsna consciousness.
The main character throughout the first half of the book is Sri Prema-dasa Babaji who is
known as a paramahamsa, or a topmost swan-like devotee of the Lord who has transcended
all external forms of religiosity. He is always overwhelmed with pure ecstatic love and his
personal worship of cannot be understood by an ordinary person. One day the babaji is
approached by a sannyasi who is himself very well-versed in the revealed scriptures, but has
concluded that the impersonal conception of the Absolute is supreme. The sannyasi asked
many questions and the babaji gives the conclusive answers thereby convincing him of the
supremacy of the personal theism of the Vaisnavas. Other characters gradually make their
appearance in the novel and various philosophical discussions take place. This is a very
thorough book touching on practically every major topic of devotional life and Srila
Bhaktivinoda Thakura has quoted profuse scriptural passages to support his conclusions.
I’d even take it to far as saying touching on not practically, I’d take out the word
practically, and say it is. It is just a matter of how direct you want to see it.
Finally the last fifteen chapters of Jaiva-dharma discuss this subject of transcendental
rasa very elaborately. Two sincere devotees named Vijaya Kumara and Vrajanatha approach
Prema-dasa Babaji with many questions and together they discuss the nature of ecstatic
symptoms, transcendental emotions and affection for the Lord in the relationships of
neutrality, servitude, friendship, parenthood, and conjugal love. Vijaya Kumara who wishes
to be further instructed in the conjugal mellow is directed by Prema-dasa Babaji to perceed
to Jagannatha Puri and receive the audience of Gopala Guru Goswami, a disciple of Svarupa
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Damodara Goswami, from him he learns about Krsna’s role as the supreme hero, Radha’s
role as the supreme heroine, the descriptions of Radha’s girlfriends, stimulants of ecstatic
love, the Lord’s pastimes conducted throughout eight periods of the day, varieties of
enjoyment shared by the divine couple and so on.
The book ends with the description of how the two devotees, Vrajanatha and Vijaya
Kumara obtain the ultimate goal of life by taking the teachings of their spiritual master to
heart. Vrajanatha remained on the banks of the Ganga in Sridhama Mayapur, and Vijaya
Kumara stayed in a secluded cottage near the Jagannatha Puri sea shore.
As to be expected, Kusa-kratha Prabhu has given us a very clear, concise, readable, and
poetic description of the topics that he most relished. Jaiva-dharma is a very complex,
philosophical work, but Kusa-kratha Prabhu has represented it in a way that one can relish
it without becoming exhausted by the complexities.
So basically it appears that the last fifteen chapters would be either working with, means
would definitely include Ujjvala-nilamani, but it may also, depend on how it’s laid out,
include the last parts of Nectar of Devotion.
Chapter One
The Soul's Eternal and Temporary Natures
Jiver nitya o naimittik dharma
So in here we can see, he establishes the Soul’s Eternal and Temporary Natures, The
Soul's Eternal Nature is Pure and Everlasting, The Soul's Temporary Duties are Imperfect,
Horrible, Contaminated and Short lived, Another Name for the Eternal Religion is the
Vaisnava Religion, then Vaidhi-bhakti — the Eternal Religion. It is Not Temporary,
Eternal Religion and the Differences of Caste, Eternal Duties, Household Life, and the
Material World, Eternal Religion and Ordinary Activities, Eternal Religion and Modern
Science-Civilization, Eternal Religion and History, Eternal Religion and Byut-parasta or
Deity Worship, Eternal Religion and Devotional Service in Practice. Then he does
sambandha, abhideya and prayojana in dasa-mula from the Thirteenth through the Twenty-
first Chapter. And starting with the Twenty-second Chapter then he goes into
prayojana…Yes, through Twenty-five. Then from Chapter Twenty-six then I would say
that’s where he gets into the more finer points, but otherwise he deals with the dasa-mula.
But he gives all these other things an introduction to the dasa-mula.
Of all earthly realms, Jambudvipa is the best. Of all places in Jambudvipa, Bharata-varsa
is the best. Of all places in Bharata-varsa, Gauda-desa is the best. Of all places in Gauda-
desa, Sri Navadvipa-mandala is the best. In one part of Sri Navadvipa-mandala, on the
Ganga shore, the beautiful village of Sri Godruma is splendidly manifested eternally. In
ancient times many bhajananandi devotees made their homes in the gardens of Sri
Godruma.
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In that place, in a cottage of vines, a surabhi cow once worshipped Lord Gaurasundara,
the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not far from that place was a bhajana-kutira named
Pradyumna-kunja. In that bhajana-kutira thick with vines, a paramahamsa babaji, who was
an initiated disciple of the Supreme Lord’s personal associate Pradyumna Brahmacari,
always stayed, rapt in the bliss of worshipping the Lord (bhajanananda).
Aware that Sri Godruma is not different from Sri Nanda-grama in Vrndavana, Sri
Prema-dasa Babaji, who was learned in all the scriptures, also took shelter in that holy place.
Every day he chanted Lord Hari’s holy names two hundred thousand times. Every day he
offered hundreds and hundreds of dandavat obeisances to all the Vaisnavas. He maintained
his life by madhukari begging at the homes of the cowherd people there. He strictly followed
the rules of a saintly life.
When he had finished all his spiritual duties, he would not waste his time with gossip.
Rather, he would read, with tears in his eyes, the Prema-vivarta of Lord Gaurasundara’s dear
associate Jagadananda Pandita. At those times the devotees in that forest grove would listen
with love and devotion. And why not? The book Prema-vivarta is full of the sweet mellows
(rasas) of devotional service. Also, this babaji read it so sweetly that hearing its words at
once extinguished whatever remained of the poison fire of material desires in the hearts of
the devotees.
One afternoon, when he had finished the chanting of all his rounds, the paramahamsa
babaji sat down in his madhavi-vine covered cottage and read from “Prema-vivarta” and as
he read he became plunged in the ocean of devotional love. At that moment an austere
sannyasi approached him and again and again offered dandavat obeisances at his feet.
Plunged in devotional bliss, the babaji was for a moment unaware of external events.
Finally seeing the sannyasi prostrate before him, the babaji who was more humble than a
blade of grass, at once bowed down to greet him. Saying, “O Lord Caitanya, O Lord
Nityananda, please be merciful upon me, a fallen soul,” the babaji began to weep.
Then the sannyasi said to the saintly babaji, “O master, I am very lowly and fallen. Why,
imitating my actions, do you mock me in this way?” Then, taking the dust of the babaji’s
feet, the sannyasi sat down before him.
Giving the sannyasi a tree bark sitting place, and then sitting beside him, the babaji, his
words choked with spiritual love said, “O master, I am a fallen soul. How may I serve you?”
Setting down his kamandalu, the regal sannyasi respectfully folded his hands and said,
“O master, I am very unfortunate. I studied the sankhya, patanjala, nyaya, vaisesika, purva-
mimamsa, and uttara-mimamsa philosophies. I studied the Vedanta, Upanisads, and many
other scriptures also. I traveled on pilgrimage to Varanasi and many other holy places. I
spent much time debating with others the meaning of the scriptures.
“It is twelve years now since I accepted a sannyasi danda from Srila Saccidananda
Sarasvatipada. After I accepted the danda I spent my time always traveling to all the holy
places. Wherever I went in Bharata-varsa I always associated with the sannyasi followers of
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Sankaracarya. Passing through the stages of kuticaka, bahudaka and hamsa, after a few days
I attained the stage of paramahamsa. Then I stayed always at Varanasi.
Here this point of, after a few days, because the point is when you are absorbed in this
transcendental platform, even if you are not, the time goes very quickly. Because if you
think about it, however old you are now, think back about the rest of your life, how long
does it seem? Not long. So that’s the whole point, so when they say here, a few days, it means
time passed, but time moves more quickly. So here it goes quickly pleasantly because they
are transcendental engagement, and when you are materially absorbed it goes by quickly not
so pleasantly.
“Observing a vow of silence, I took shelter of the sayings ‘aham brahmasmi’ (I am
Brahman), ‘prajnanam brahma’ (Brahman is consciousness), and ‘tat tvam asi’ (You are
that), which Sankara declares are the maha-vakyas (most important statements of the
scriptures).
So here we are then starting even with the Uttara-mimamsa, we are starting with this
Sankara. Because now we are going to take it from there into the Vaisnava, and then we are
going to see right on through the roof into the Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta.
So these are the things, I am Brahman, Brahman is consciousness, and You are that. So
all this trying to get them to believe, because the point is, if You are that, then that’s two.
And I am Brahman, then you can distinguish the two. Because you are saying, I don’t
understand it. Brahman is consciousness, so that’s establishing one thing. But the problem is
they don’t even see within it that there is duality within their own statement.
“Then one day a saintly Vaisnava singing songs about Lord Hari’s pastimes came before
me. Opening my eyes wide, I gazed at him. He was bathed by the tears flowing from his eyes,
and the hairs of his body stood erect in ecstasy. In a choked voice he chanted “Sri Krsna
Caitanya! Prabhu Nityananda!’ Again and again he danced with faltering steps. Sometimes
he fell to the ground.
“As I gazed at him and heard his song, my heart became filled with love, a love I have no
power to describe. Even though I became filled with love, I followed the rules of
paramahamsa life and I did not speak a word to him.
“I am pathetic, my rules of paramahamsa life are pathetic, and my so-called good fortune
is also pathetic. Why did I not speak to him?
Because here is, you are following rules, we see here, the rules followed by this babaji are
just natural expressions or natural expansions of his mood. He is just absorbed in the holy
name, therefore he is not talking prajalpa. He is very humble, therefore he is offering
obeisances to the devotees. And because he is situated transcendentally, he is very regular.
So therefore he just does this all the time. He sees himself as simple, he lives simply, so all
this is going very nicely.
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But this other person he is following, he says paramahamsa life, but as the same time, he
is stuck in the rules, he thinks it’s the rules that establish him in the position he is, rather
than the rules are a symptom of the position he is on. In other words, you follow the rules
until the rules are natural. So at this point you can see, because he didn’t go, it wasn’t
natural. Otherwise when that level had arisen, he would naturally go and speak to the
person, because he would be situated nicely. So it’s not the rule that makes him situated
there. He is already situated, he follows the rules. But if you are only situated because you
follow the rules, therefore the rule is you don’t talk to others, because he said he was
following this vow of silence.
So this is where the rules are left. It doesn’t mean that rules aren’t followed. But it’s just
the opposite. In other words, we follow the rules to situate ourself. But if you are situated,
then because you are situated, you will naturally follow the rules, because those rules are
what’s set by Krsna for those who are on that transcendental platform.
It’s just like a scholar sits and reads books. So if someone wants to become a scholar, they
read books. It doesn’t mean they are a scholar, but they have to do the same activity. So now
he is doing it because he has to become a scholar, but once he is a scholar he’ll read them
because he is one.
So the flavor changes. So this is why he is saying it’s pathetic, because one has taken the
rule as great, rather than the purpose of the rule. So that’s a mistake.
Like you are so worried about the knife, the knife is so wonderful and special, you don’t
want anything to happen to it that you won’t use it to cut the vegetables. So that special
attention on that knife is useless, because the knife is for cutting the potatoes.
“Since that day my heart has been irresistibly drawn to the feet of Sri Caitanya. I
became very agitated. I spent many days searching for that Vaisnava, but I did not see him
anywhere.
So we see also this element of that spontaneity of him becoming agitated by this, means
that he did purify himself to a very high degree, he was very elevated and very purely
situated. And he was sincere in trying to find the Absolute Truth. Therefore when he came
in contact with the bona fide devotees, it immediately had effect.
But the problem is, as mentioned in, I think Haridas Thakura mentions it, that these
other processes of karma and jnana basically they are extremely slow paths of elevation. One
may become purified and become very pious, but actually moving beyond that particular
state doesn’t happen. So you purify yourself up to a particular level and then you get stuck at
that level for hundreds, thousands, or millions of lifetimes. But it’s written into the system
that a karma-kandi brahmana or a karma-kandi enthusiast he has to have brahmanas to do
his programs. Now by having brahmanas who are doing that, he may by good fortune
actually get a Vaisnava as the priest for his yajnas, then he might here the philosophy of
Krsna consciousness, and from there, because he is pious, he will take up Krsna
consciousness. But he may not. It’s not an efficient system in that way.
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And same with the jnana, the jnana is that you are going to be studying philosophy all
day, living a very simple, austere life, so you are not in touch with the material engagements,
and because you are discussing philosophy maybe one day a devotee philosopher will come
by and you hear from them. But he may not.
So he is fortunate here that this underlying element within the system of jnana he did
come in contact, but because there is attachment to the path of jnana, he couldn’t take full
advantage, therefore he didn’t talk to that devotee. Otherwise at that time he could have
already been progressing very nicely in the practice of Krsna consciousness.
“When I saw that Vaisnava and heard the holy names from his mouth I became filled
with a pure and sacred bliss. Before that time I did not know that such bliss existed
anywhere.
Now he is situated as good as it gets on this aham brahmasmi, that kind of platform that
the sankarites are establishing. Because he is speaking in humility, he is not speaking in
pride. So when he says he is paramahamsa, so according to their standard he was on the
paramahamsa platform, he was a monist, he was fully absorbed in thinking these things, and
thinking all this, still the bliss from that, which basically just means the happiness of not
being harassed by the modes of nature, then he found here is something positive.
I did not think it was possible for a human being to experience such bliss.
“After some days of thinking I decided that it would be best for me to take shelter of the
feet of a Vaisnava. Then I left Varanasi and went to Sridhama Vrndavana.
“There I saw many Vaisnavas. Every one of them was calling out the names, ‘O Sri
Rupa! O Sri Sanatana! O Sri Jiva Goswami!’ and lamenting. They were all meditating on Sri
Sri Radha-Krsna’s pastimes and in voices choked with love, calling out the name of
Navadvipa.
“From that moment I have yearned to see Navadvipa. After a long journey from Sri
Vraja-dhama, I arrived in Mayapura a few days ago.
“In Mayapura town I heard of your glories, so now I have come to take shelter of your
feet. Please be merciful to me, accept me as your servant, and give my story an ending that is
good.”
Weeping again and again, and humbly placing a blade of grass between his teeth, the
saintly paramahamsa said, “O saintly sannyasi, I am very unfortunate. I fill my belly, I sleep,
and I speak useless gossip. In this way I have wasted my life.
Now he is talking about useless gossip means discussing philosophy, but that philosophy
is impersonal philosophy, therefore gossip. And his sleep is just only how much is required
according to sastra, eating will be according to the sastra, going out and begging and living
in that way. But he’ll still say,I eat and sleep and spend my time in useless gossip, because he
is not absorbed in the holy name. Things like this put our lives in perspective.
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“Now I pass my days in the place where Sri Krsna Caitanya enjoyed His pastimes. Still, I
have no power to taste what is true love for Lord Krsna.
“You are fortunate. Gazing at a Vaisnava, for a moment, you tasted that love. You have
received the mercy of Lord Krsna Caitanya. If, when you taste pure spiritual love, you once
remember this fallen person, my life will be a great success.”
Speaking again and again in this way, the saintly babaji tightly embraced the saintly
sannyasi and bathed him with the tears flowing from his eyes.
So he is saying, you have seen the devotee, you in this way are obsorbed in thinking of
Lord Caitanya, if in that time when you are tasting the spiritual ecstasy if you would
remember me, then I would be greatly benefited.
So we see here, this element of the relationship between the spiritual master and
disciple is very dynamic, that each has that respect. But here we see it’s natural. So that
means if it comes like that, great. Otherwise we like to sometimes play the roles and kind of
have a good time. But it’s still nice, because it’s in pursuance of, or as a reflection of this
actual. But one must remember, this is the relationship.
Touched by a Vaisnava, the saintly sannyasi felt an emotion he had never known
before. He danced and wept. As he danced, he sang this verse:
Glory to Sri Krsna Caitanya! Glory to Lord Nityananda! Glory to my spiritual master,
Sri Prema-dasa! Glory to the bliss of devotional service!
After a long time of chanting and dancing the two of them talked about many things.
Saintly Prema-dasa Babaji humbly said, “O great soul, please stay in this Pradyumna-kunja
for some days and purify me.”
He is a great soul, because he is practicing, his sadhana is there, he has elevated himself
to a very lofty position, though in comparison to devotional service, yes, not so important,
but at the same time, very fit candidate.
The saintly sannyasi replied, “I place my body in the service of your feet. What to speak
of a few days, I will serve you to the end of my life. That is my wish.”
The difference is, they say this today and if you come back after five years they are still
thinking the same thing. So that’s the difference. When they are purified to this level it
becomes consistent. It’s not inconsistent due to the washing of the modes of nature.
The saintly sannyasi was learned in all the scriptures. He knew well the spiritual benefit
to be attained by staying in the spiritual master’s home and studying under his guidance.
Therefore he very happily stayed for some says in that forest grove.
That’s the thing what makes the Vedic culture superior to anything else, because it
establishes the very basis on which the whole devotional culture functions. Like here
establishing the importance of associating with the guru, living at the place of the guru,
hearing from the guru, serving the guru, surrendering. So he has gained all these even
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though he was a Mayavadi. He has gained all these, because this is what is there, because
when it does come in contact with the bona fide devotees, then that’s actually the culture,
that’s what goes on in the spiritual world. That’s why it’s superior. Otherwise when we say,
oh, what’s the difference between them? Does any other religion teach that surrender to
guru? That’s the thing. You may have saintly persons, you may be inspired by them, but that
element of surrendering to and learning from you don’t see it as a very prominent element,
at least not on the, how you would say, what would be the level meaning what the common
people would be practicing, what’s available for the common person?
Devotee (1): The layfolk.
Maharaja: Yes, basically for the layperson they have their priests and this and that, but it’s
still not like you have to surrender to that priest. No, the priest is just taking you through
the ceremony. So basically it’s you and the Lord. And he is taking you through the
ceremony, which is an important element, that is his attitude. So in that sense they got half
of it right, he is following his attitude. But those who are hearing from him they should be
somehow or another trying to connect their life there to him or someone else. So these
elements aren’t living.
So that’s why Prabhupada mentions that someone who is following the Vedic culture
will be better situated, means even someone on the lowest end of the Vedic culture will be
still situated better than someone on the highest end of any other culture. Because of the
acceptance of the scriptures, the acceptance of guru. So right here, guru, sadhu, and the
scriptures is established. Someone who has that kind of faith, that kind of connection,
everything will be revealed. So it’s perfect then.
After some days the paramahamsa babaji said, “O great soul, Sri Pradyumna Brahmacari
Thakura kindly keeps me at his feet. Today he is rapt in the worship of Lord Nrsimha in the
village of Deva-palli in the outskirts of Navadvipa-mandala. When we have finished our
madhukari begging for alms, let us go and see him.
So that means Nrsimha-palli.
The saintly sannyasi replied, “As you order, so I shall do.”
Crossing the Alakananda River, the two of them came to Deva-palli at two in the
afternoon. Then, crossing the Suryatila River, they saw the Supreme Lord’s personal
associate Sri Pradyumna Brahmacari in the temple of Lord Nrsimha.
Because these rivers before either they were more manifest and time has passed, because
there are places where you can still see the river bed of the Alakananda, or it’s a matter of
they can see them, or they just know where the place is, so they are crossing it, whether you
see water or not.
From a distance the paramahamsa babaji offered dandavat obeisances to his spiritual
master. Melting with love for the Lord’s devotees, the saintly brahmacari at once left the
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temple, with both hands lifted up the paramahamsa babaji, affectionately embraced him,
and inquired about his welfare.
In other words, he is doing worship of the Lord, but when the devotees come that’s more
important, so then that stopped and then that’s taking up. And this is an eternal associate of
the Lord.
After a long talk about spiritual matters, the paramahamsa babaji introduced the saintly
sannyasi. The saintly brahmacari respectfully said, “You have attained a proper spiritual
master. You should learn Prema-vivarta from Prema-dasa. It is said (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,
Madhya 8.128):
“Whether one is a brahmana, sannyasi or sudra, regardless of what he is, he can become
a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna.”
Here also, he is going with the spiritual master. So the spiritual master is talking to his
spiritual master, he is not getting involved. He is not saying, hey, introduce me and all that
kind of stuff. He is just there, and then after some time then it naturally comes up.
So that’s the whole point, being a servant means being a servant, means you are not
trying to get some prestige out of it, some position, some authority, some control, some
recognition.
Then the saintly sannyasi humbly offered dandavat obeisances to his parama-guru (the
spiritual master of his spiritual master) and said, “O master, You are a personal associate of
Lord Caitanya. Your glance of mercy can purify hundreds of arrogant sannyasis like myself.
Please be merciful to me.”
The saintly sannyasi was not experienced in the relationships among devotees. Still, he
could see the relationship of the guru and parama-guru, and he did act in the way a sincere
disciple should to his spiritual master. Then, after seeing the sandhya-arati, the two of them
returned to Sri Godruma.
So he didn’t know about how to do, but because of the purity and because of
understanding the scriptures, then being able to deal with more the essence he was able to
apply properly what was to be done. This is the point, in studying the scriptures one may not
know everything, but if one knows the principles on which they are based, one will be able
to act in the proper way. Because etiquette is basically the behavior of someone who
understands the scriptures. So if you understand, you’ll act naturally according to that. If
you don’t understand, then there are rules to ensure that you do. So the etiquette isn’t rules,
etiquette is the natural behavior of someone who understands the scriptures.
Devotee (2): Does it apply to philosophical questions also, let’s say, you understand the
principle in the sastra books?
Maharaja: Oh, philosophical points.
Devotee (2): You cannot back up let’s say some example or question because you know the
principle.
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Maharaja: Yes, you can do that also, means the point is what you are trying to get with
studying the scriptures, from hearing the philosophy, is understanding what is the point
being made, why it’s being made. Understanding that, then whether you remember exact
details or not, it will still be applicable to you, because then the situation you are in you can
apply it. You may or may not remember the exact detail of how it was.
That’s why in this, when we are dealing with verses, the important thing is to
understand what they mean. If someone has a good memory, great, they can memorize them,
it’s nice, it should be, why not? But if one doesn’t, but still one can understand the principle
on which it’s based. So that is the thing that’s always dealt with. Because otherwise that, by
repetition, then you get to know, so that will stick with you. But these other things, memory,
is the memory strong, it’s nice. If the memory is weak, then it will be lost. But the principles
don’t go away, because they are not a matter of memory, they are a matter of realization. So
that’s more important.
Then if you have that in one area, you should be able to apply it in another if you are
able to contemplate it properly. That’s why the importance of manana, because then you
can see how to apply one thing in any situation or in some other situation. You know
something from one scripture, then how to apply that according to the other scripture,
because they are all saying the same thing, it is just a matter of how deep they are taking it.
So we can see here, it’s not a matter of two different things. This paramahamsa sannyasi
then he is following the same path that the devotees are following, that the Vaisnavas are
following, but he doesn’t understand the depth of the path, therefore he has only gone to a
certain stage in the path. Then when he comes in contact with those who are following the
same path but further, then he can appreciate that depth that’s there. Because Krsna says in
the Gita, there is only one path, that’s all, there is not more than one path. It’s just where
you are situated on the path. So karma will be your lowest, jnana will be a little higher than
that, but then it’s still it’s only bhakti that will then go beyond. So there is many varieties of
karma and they’ll have their hierarchy, and many varieties of jnana and they’ll have their
various aspects of hierarchy. And then that’s as good as it gets in the material world. But it’s
still the same path. It’s just that the devotee is engaging karma in the Lord’s service, jnana in
the Lord’s service, therefore he gets to the Lord’s service. While the karmi is engaging karma
for himself, so that’s all the farther he gets. The jnani is engaging that only for himself,
that’s all the farther he gets. So they are using naiskarmya for their own purpose. So it looks
they are very renounced and detached, but their purpose is fully for themselves. The action
that they are performing, the results of that, they don’t mind that that’s for someone else.
But the ultimate result that they get from performing that act of naiskarmya that’s for
themselves completely.
So that’s the difference, the devotee on all levels it’s not for themselves. So the
observable form is not for themselves and the experiential result is not for themselves. So
that’s the thing, most people may give up the form, but they won’t give up the experience.
Because who is going to complain that you are keeping the experience for yourself? No one
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is going to complain about that. But the point is, if you are pleasing the Lord, then that
experience is for Him. Then since He is everything, you are part of Him, you will
automatically experience the pleasure He is. The leave is part of the tree, you water the tree,
the leave is happy, because the tree is happy. So if you give up all activities and that desires
for Krsna, Krsna is pleased. When He is pleased, us being His part and parcel, we will
automatically be pleased.
After some days had passed in this way, the saintly sannyasi desired to learn the spiritual
truth from the paramahamsa babaji. Except for his garments, the sannyasi had become like
the Vaisnavas. Controlling his mind and senses, and filled with a host of virtues, he had full
faith in the spiritual path. In addition to that, he was very humble and he now had faith in
the transcendental pastimes of the Supreme Lord.
So he is controlling his mind and senses, so that means before in one sense you could say
he was, but he wasn’t, because before he would ignore them, so that’s taken as control. But
control is actually, it’s just like, I don’t drive the car, therefore I am in control of the car.
While the Vaisnava’s is, you are driving the car you are in control of the car. So that’s the
difference, the senses are engaged but they are engaged in the Lord’s service, so that’s real
control. While the other is just you are actually avoiding using the senses. So, of course, that
is come control, but it’s not technically control of the senses. It’s an aspect of controlling the
mind, but it’s not complete, because the mind controls the senses. So if you control the
mind, it doesn’t control the senses, what’s the meaning? You control the big man, but you
don’t have any influence so that you can get anything done through his machinery of
whoever works under him. How much control do you actually have? So here is, you control
the man, then his whole offices are working in your favor.
And then being on this path he was very humble. So that made everything work.
Because that’s the key actually of the whole knowledge and activities. The whole etiquette is
humility. Knowledge is humility. It’s the basis of everything. So we see, that’s the first thing
that’s noticeable that’s there. We haven’t heard anybody speak anything yet, we haven’t
actually heard any philosophy. So what happened up to now so far is simply establishing the
qualities necessary to hear the philosophy that’s going to be spoken in this work. So a
character is important. Otherwise knowledge without character is useless. I mean this
sannyasi he knew so much, what did we say, it was pathetic. Maybe that’s what the P stands
for in the degree letters.
Devotee (3): So can you say that if you have knowledge you would express the humility
through the etiquette?
Maharaja: If you have knowledge you express the humility through etiquette. You could say
that, I would say that would be the first stage. But more than that the humility will be
naturally expressed. In other words, the humility will manifest the etiquette. It’s just a
matter of practice, a matter of realization. So here we see, here it’s come to that platform of
great spontaneity. So this is what you are trying for.
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Devotee (4): So is it the more effective way to learn this etiquette by learning the
philosophy this way than to say learning specific social situations and how to deal, like a
traditional etiquette?
Maharaja: Means tradition means whose tradition?
Devotee (4): Not our tradition, the Western.
Maharaja: Yeah, because the Western is, they are going to give you a scenario. And they are
going to say, ok here, person A, person B. Person A says this, person B reacts like this. He
says this this and that. Person C comes along, person D is there, and then next thing you
know is a world war. Whatever, so they are going to go like that.
So you are going to look at it and the externals naturally have something to do with the
internal. So there is an idea by studying the external you actually understand what’s
happening. But technically all they have done is studied the material cause and the
operative cause. And depending upon what’s there they will emphasize one or the other,
maybe they’ll deal with both. But they have not dealt with the formal cause or the ultimate
cause. So they actually don’t know the principle on which the formal of those interactions
happen. So they are just taking it as this happened.
Because their whole academy is based on chance. Means the highest academicians in the
academy are the physicists, the quantumists, they are the highest. And that’s recognized,
because whenever you have a graduation they sit in the front. Then after them are the
doctors and lawyers. Then after them are your philosophers and all this other riffraff. And
that’s how the quantumists see them, because it’s not hard science that they are dealing
with. So that’s based on chance. So it’s just a chance situation. So it’s thought that by
studying chance situations, or by studying enough of them, I will see patterns that are
somehow or another mathematically calculable because there are laws of nature.
Unfortunately they are so smart that they haven’t figured out that why would there be laws
of nature, why would they be able to apply their math, where did the concept of math even
come from? So the concepts that are behind why something happens that they have no idea.
So it may be nice, you get a few things, definitely in the class, because what? They are
going to use some particular, very enlightening examples that will make it very clear to the
point that they are there. But you’ll find when you walk out the door you will not see such
examples. And then the problem is, unless you see the example exactly like that, because
you have only studied the external, you will not know how to apply it in any other situation.
So you will not actually know the etiquette.
Devotee (4): So we focus more on the principle than the detail?
Maharaja: Means details are studied as example of the principle, but the principle is what is
being studied. What they are doing is studying detail and then making up their own idea,
they create their own formal cause. In other words, they dictate what’s the formal cause,
they say that, all this works because of this principle, but where did that principle come
from? From their own observation. Means if it’s close to the actual formal cause, which is the
15
universal form and all his energies, then it will actually have some meaning. But there is a
good chance that it’s not.
In other words, of all the professors in the world that do this, how many of them are
known? Of those who are known, how many are very famous for actually creating some
system that people outside of themselves at least have the idea they can take advantage of it.
There is a handful of gurus who teach this stuff and people feel that they get some benefit.
It’s a handful. Maximum I think on the planet, well, I mean if we took academics it would be
reduced down very greatly, but if you go beyond that, you are talking maybe, The Secret
talks about 50 people or something like that, 50, 60 people. And these are the ones that
actually are observing to the point where they can actually try to teach it to someone else.
So 50 people out of how many academics in the world? How many professors are on the
planet? So that means 50 people are actually practical and the rest of them aren’t.
So the difficulty comes down, the system doesn’t work because it’s not complete, it’s
atheistic. Because causation has four levels. And so unless you can connect the operative
cause and the material cause, which is what you can see to the formal cause and the ultimate
cause, which is the Lord and His potencies, the subtler potencies at work, you won’t actually
understand anything. Because you may learn it if you hit that exact situation, it will make
sense to you.
But if you don’t, it’s just like, let us say, the book says, the wife says, oh, we never go out
anywhere. And so then he’ll go, we always go out. And then he starts World War III. So
then instead of that, then he is recommended that when she says that, he goes, he goes along
with it. Oh, ok, this and that. So it works great.
What happens when he comes home and he’d sit there and he’d sit down at dinner and
he’d eat and he says, you never say anything about my cooking, you don’t like my cooking.
So now he won’t know what to do, because the example was given that going out to dinner,
but it’s the same principle. Whether it’s going out to dinner, whether it’s do you like the
outfit she is wearing, what she has cooked, that she took care of the house, that she did
something for you, that she is just there at all, that she happens to be your wife she hasn’t
run off yet, all these things, it’s the same principle. But they just see it as different details
and they try to string them together. But unless you understand the principle how many
details go into that book? Why does he have to write a sequel? Because the book explained it
in his own mind and for some intellectual people it worked very nicely, in the way of
reading through it it made sense, but in application it didn’t, therefore a new book has to be
written.
But you see, the great sages write a book, there is no need of a sequel. Artha-satra has no
sequel. Manu has no sequel. You don’t need it, it’s complete, because it works on the
principles.
So you can use these things, and devotees like to use these things, but at the same time,
do you see the etiquette increasing practically around you? No. Without any classes in the
70s everyone offered obeisances to everybody else in the temple before mangala-aratika, it’s
16
just what you did. When you saw anybody else, you offered obeisances and said the full
mantra even. Now like the Aussies, you see each other, hey vanchas prabhu, vanchas, you
don’t even bother with bowing down, haribol, we are practical, why get involved in all this
stuff?
Devotee (4): How do we get back to that?
Maharaja: How do we get back to that? By actually having faith in guru, sadhu, and sastra,
that there is nothing else that will benefit you but guru, sadhu, and sastra. You can learn
other branches of knowledge, yukta-vairagya, yes, but if it’s not based on guru, sadhu, and
sastra, it will never help anyone anywhere at any time in any place, it never has and never
will. It’s that simple. People will, oh, that’s fanatic. No, it’s not, it’s just fact.
This is a rock, oh, that’s fanatic, I want to say it’s Mr. Potatohead. No, it’s a rock. How
come we can’t discuss this, you are just like all those sannyasis, you are just so hard line and
everything like that. No, it’s a rock. Not, but maybe it’s a Lamborghini, it’s quite
aerodynamic and everything, well, maybe it’s more like a… It’s just a fact. Bhagavatam says,
it’s just fact. There is nothing else that’s going to purify us, nothing else that’s going to
benefit us. But unfortunately we are trying every last gasp attempt that we can to find
something else other than full surrender. No, there must be some other way, I can keep it all
and get it all. But it doesn’t exist. It’s just, you have to let go of it. It doesn’t mean it goes
away.
The point is, it’s just like this, the temple car is not your car, it still sits there, it’s there,
you can go up and knock on it, it’s there. I mean don’t know too hard, the… might fall off,
but in any case, but it exists.
So the point is, it’s not yours, but it still exists. So the material energy still exists
whether it’s ours or not. So that means all the facilities you want, all the experiences you
want, they don’t go away. The difference is, who is it for? In the performance of activities
who is the ultimate beneficiary? That’s all that changes. But we are trying to hold on that,
no, I’ll get everything. The best of both worlds. But is there a best in this world? That’s the
whole point. The best in this world is from that world, so that’s the thing. I guess we should
say, the best of that world.
…So then tomorrow we’ll, now we’ll get into philosophy, because he is going to ask him
something. (end of lecture)
Devotee (5): …
Maharaja: Moves about there, laughing, playing, and rejoicing in the company of women…
So he is in the spiritual world, that’s what’s going on, he is a liberated person that’s there, his
family is there, the devotees they have their wives… So husband and wife are both engaged
in the Lord’s service.
Devotee (5): …
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Maharaja: They are feminine but everyone is in masculine feminine forms. It’s just like this,
let us say, why do people like to go to…? They are just looking for another person, but why
they like to… Because everybody else is doing the same kind of thing. Why do people like
going parties? Because everybody wants to do the same thing. So therefore you have Radha
and Krsna, or here Laksmi and Narayana, and so they have their relationship in their
activities, so it’s more enhanced when everybody else is also… It’s just like in the West in
your cities, all the young couples they go in the same place. It’s out in the park, they could be
alone. But everybody else is in the same park, because the atmosphere… So therefore
everything is in masculine and feminine… it creates a form of rasa in which Radha and
Krsna or Laksmi and Narayana…
Devotee (6): …
Maharaja: They are feminine, but they are in masculine form, so they follow the duties of
what the men do, and the women follow… (end)
January 5, 2010
(recording missing)
One morning, at sunrise, the paramahamsa babaji sat in his cottage of madhavi vines
and chanted his rounds on tulasi beads. As he remembered the Lord’s pastimes of leaving
Vrndavana, tears flowed again and again from his eyes. Now aware of his original spiritual
form and forgetful of his external material body, he became engaged in a service appropriate
for that time of morning. Approaching, the saintly sannyasi could see that the babaji was
plunged in an ecstatic trance.
Staring at the sannyasi, the paramahamsa babaji said, “O gopi friend, please silence that
monkey, so he will not break the happy sleeping of our Radha-Govinda. If They waken, then
our friend Lalita will be unhappy and she will rebuke me. Look! Ananga Manjari is signaling
that it be done. You are Ramana-manjari. This is the service given to you. Please be careful
and attentive.”
Speaking again and again in this way, the paramahamsa babaji finally became
unconscious. Now understanding his identity in the spiritual world, the saintly sannyasi
became engaged in those services.
Then the sun rose and the beauty of dawn became manifest. The birds sang. Gentle
breezes blew. The morning sunlight made the cottage of madhavi vines very beautiful,
beautiful beyond description.
The paramahamsa babaji was sitting on a seat made from banana bark. Gradually he
regained external consciousness. Then he continued to chant the holy names. At that time
the saintly sannyasi offered dandavat obeisances to the feet of the babaji, humbly sat down
beside him, and said, “O master, this lowly person has a question. Please answer his question
18
and make his burning life cool and happy again. Please sprinkle the nectar of Vraja on his
heart, a heart burned by the fire of impersonalism.”
The babaji replied, “You are qualified to hear answers. Please ask your question, and I
will reply as I am able.”
The sannyasi said, “O master, for many days I have heard about religion. I have asked
many people about the truth of religion. Sad to say, their answers were not in harmony with
each other. Therefore I ask: What is the true duty of the individual soul? Why do different
teachers give different explanations of the truth of religion? If there is only one truth, why
do the philosophers not agree in their opinions?”
Meditating on the feet of Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu, the saintly babaji replied, “O
fortunate one, as far as my understanding allows, I will tell you the truth of religion. Please
listen.
“The eternal nature of a thing is its eternal religion. The religion of something comes
from its original identity. When Lord Krsna desires to create something, He creates its
original nature. That original nature is its eternal religion. However when a thing comes
into contact with other things, its nature may become changed. After some days that
changed state becomes firmly established and it seems to be the eternal nature of the thing.
However this changed nature is not in truth the real nature of the thing. These changed
natures are called nisarga. I will give you an example of such a changed nature. Water has an
original nature. The original nature of water is that it is liquid. However, in contact with
certain circumstance, that nature becomes changed and the formerly liquid water may
become solid ice. That is the changed nature of water, which seems to be its original nature.
However, this changed nature is not eternal. It is always temporary. It is manifested for some
reason, it remains for some time, and eventually it disappears of its own accord. On the
other hand, the original nature of a thing is eternal. Even when the changed nature is
manifested, the original nature remains, although it is dormant. In the course of time, when
circumstances are favorable, the original nature is again openly manifested.
“The original nature of a thing is eternal. Its changed nature is temporary. One who
knows the truth knows the difference between the eternal and temporary nature. One who
does not know the truth thinks the temporary nature is eternal.”
Then the saintly sannyasi asked, “You speak of a ‘thing’ (vastu). What does this word
mean?”
The paramahamsa replied, “The word ‘vastu’ is derived from the verb ‘vas’ (to exist) and
the affix ‘tu’. Therefore that which exists is called ‘vastu’.
There are two kinds of vastus: Things that exist in reality and things that do not exist in
reality. What exist in reality are spiritual truths and the spiritual goal of life. What do not
exist in reality are material objects, material qualities, and the like. What exists in reality
exists in truth. What does not exist in reality exists only in someone’s mistaken belief.
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“When a person believes something it may be that what he believes is the truth, or it
may be that it is only an illusion. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.1.2) it is said:
“The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all.”
In this way it is proved that the world of spirit is the true reality. The Supreme
Personality of Godhead is the only reality. From Him the many individual spirit souls, who
are all His parts and parcels, are manifested, and from Him also the potency of illusion
(maya) is manifested.
“Therefore the word ‘thing’ (vastu) may be applied to three things: 1. the Supreme
Personality of Godhead, 2. the individual spirit souls and 3. the illusory potency (maya).
These three things exist in reality. Knowledge of the relationships that exist between these
three things is said to be pure knowledge.
“There are many different conceptions of the true natures of these three things. These
conceptions tend to be full of errors. The vaisesika philosophers, in their categorization of
things and qualities, believe to be true many things that are not true.
“Things that exist in truth have specific attributes. These attributes determine their
nature. The individual spirit souls exist in truth. The individual spirit souls have specific
attributes that are eternal. These determine the natures of the individual souls.
Then the saintly sannyasi said, “O master, I yearn to understand this properly.”
Then the saintly babaji said, “A devotee named Krsnadasa Kaviraja, who has received
the mercy of Lord Nityananda, showed me a manuscript of a book he had written, a book
named Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. In that book (Madhya 20.108 and 117) Sri Mahaprabhu
gives this instruction:
“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because
he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different
from the Lord.
“Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time
immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his
material existence.”
“Lord Krsna is the totality of spiritual existence. He is like a sun from which many
spiritual universes have come. The individual spirit souls are rays of light from that Krsna-
sun. There are many individual spirit souls.
“Someone may say, ‘You say that the individual spirit souls are parts of Lord Krsna. This
means that when He is broken up to become the individual spirit souls, Krsna ceases to exist.
This is like a mountain that is broken up into many parts. When it is broken in this way the
mountain ceases to exist.’
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“To this I reply, You cannot speak in that way. If my opponent then protests, ‘Why not?’
then I reply: From Lord Krsna limitless individual souls are manifested as His parts and
parcels. Still, Lord Krsna is not diminished even slightly because of that.
“In all the Vedas it is said that the individual souls are like sparks emanating from the
blazing fire of Lord Krsna. However, none of these comparisons give a completely accurate
picture of the real truth. The examples of the great fire and the spark, the sun and the rays
of light, and the alchemist’s stone and gold do not describe the entire situation. Therefore,
rejecting these material analogies, one should look inside his heart and there he will
understand the truth of the soul’s nature.
January 7, 2010
Maharaja:
“Lord Krsna is the great spiritual being and the individual soul is the infinitesimal
spiritual being. Lord Krsna and the individual soul are one in the sense that they are both
spiritual. However, Lord Krsna is the complete whole and the individual souls are only parts
of the whole. That is the difference between them.
So this will be anything that is Krsna’s potency, so that would mean Krsna and the jivas,
Krsna and the material energy, Krsna and the internal potency, there is a oneness there,
specifically between the jivas, the internal potency, and Krsna because of being of the same
quality of Brahman. But Krsna is unlimited, while the others are not, or they are dependent.
The jivas are infinitesimal… The internal potency, the svarupa-sakti is unlimited, like He is.
But at the same time, it’s dependent, while He is not, He is independent. So there is a
difference. And the material energy is then a shadow of that internal potency. So then it’s
even technically farther removed. So it’s a separated material energy.
“Lord Krsna is the supreme master eternally, and the individual spirit soul is His servant
eternally. In this way their natures are described.
“Lord Krsna is the supreme attractive, and the individual spirit soul is attracted to Him.
Lord Krsna is the supreme controller, and the individual spirit soul is controlled by Him.
Lord Krsna sees all, and the individual spirit soul is observed by Him. Lord Krsna is perfect,
and the individual spirit soul is poor and lowly. Lord Krsna is all-powerful, and the
individual soul is powerless. Therefore the eternal nature or religion of the individual soul is
to be a faithful servant of Lord Krsna eternally.
So that is religion, that is the essence of religion. Then from that then you are dealing
with how to manifest, in other words, how to be a servant, how to manifest being a servant,
that then establishes everything, so those are based on this principle. But one is always
aware of Krsna favorably and performing some service, but the position is that of servant. So
then that means his nature is always going to be doing something for Krsna’s pleasure. That
will be the position. So then like that then everything else is also seen in its nature
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connected to the Lord. Everything else is coming from the Lord, it’s non-different from the
Lord, so it has to be engaged in the Lord’s service, it has to be connected to Him. So that
means the nature of anything is its connection to Krsna. Then there will be the specific
qualities that make it unique in the whole equation. Krsna is unlimited, the uniqueness of
the soul is their limitation. He is all-powerful, so their uniqueness is powerless. Krsna is
always unique. If He is unique means everything coming from Him is unique. So what makes
that uniqueness? So that is there.
So you have the inherent nature and then you have the specific uniqueness. So that
then will be seen in connection with the inherent. We are servants, then with that we are
dependent, we are so many other elements. Because all those elements together means you
are a servant. So then when you are looking at these different things, then you look at them
in connection to the Lord. So then the environments in which that uniqueness will be
expressed in connection with the Lord and the methods that will be used, those two things
then that’s then what you are getting into some general, means you have principle on which
that functions and then specific details of the situation in which you are applying that.
In other words, the spiritual soul is servant of God, that’s the eternal religion. Now in
that you are going to have to then take what is the particular nature or situation of that
soul, that environment in which that soul is situated, then all the elements of that, the
forms of that, the methods of dealing with those forms, all that has to then be connected to
Krsna. And then in performing that your goal, your result of that will be connected to
Krsna. But overall all that is there as service.
In other words, someone is a cook, so that’s the general principle. But now seeing that
they are a cook and they’ll be a particular kind of cook, then within that particular kind of
cook, then there is the particular things they are cooking. But it still goes back to the
principle that they are a cook.
So the same thing is whatever it is, whatever consideration, it always goes back to the
soul is servant. That’s the element we are trying to get to, that soul is servant.
Devotee (1): With his unique individuality.
Maharaja: With his unique individuality, so in which way he should be serving, either based
on his inherent spiritual nature, or based on his conditioned nature. Either way both of
those, because that spiritual nature or the material nature is going to situate him in an
environment. If it’s parental rasa, that is going to situate yourself in the home, especially
connected with mother Yasoda and those kind of things. So you are going to take care of
Krsna and the cowherd boys, that kind of lookout. You are going to be in that environment.
If one is a cow, one is going to be out in the field. So the environment therefore is
established according to the nature. But service is the inherent.
So whatever rasa one is in, whether one is conditioned or in the constitutional position
still servant is the basis. Then you apply it that service to the particularities of the rasa. And
then within the rasa the specific detail what aspect of the rasa are you dealing with right
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now. Mother Yasoda is making decorations, or making clothes for Krsna, or ornaments, or
cooking for Krsna, or arranging his bath, whatever it is, that’s the specific detail. But all of
that will go back to that of servant.
So in other words, we are supposed to connect the dots. Krsna is the Supreme Lord, we
are servant, and then all the different ways we are supposed to connect the two together.
Serving Krsna that’s what we are supposed to do. So many times we hear, ok, that’s nice. But
it’s kind of like, been there done that. Ok, what new? But the thing is, it’s not so much of
what’s new. New is Krsna is ever-fresh, so new is Him. So dealing with Him each time and
situation that’s what creates the newness. So even one thing can be looked at over and over
and over again. That’s the point.
If you need newer and newer information to create the newness, that means then
basically, one is, of course, there is an interest, but then there is the element of the jijnasu
there. You are learning all that knowledge, it’s about Krsna, because it’s pious to do
something in connection to Krsna, but at the same time, our own particular satisfaction is
more what is the driving force. Because it doesn’t take a lot to keep one focused on
something. We may say, oh, we read this and that, and so many things, then only then it’s
like.
But you see, mother Yasoda, Krsna smiles, that’s it, keeps her going all day. The cowherd
boys, the cows, the gopis, just a glance or anything, that’s enough. That one thing can be
visited again and again, because He is ever-fresh. So since we are not on that ever-fresh
platform, therefore we look for something different and that’s called fresh. Variety is there,
but Krsna already is like that, every moment is different. So if one is thinking of Him, then
the experience will always be new.
“Lord Krsna is the master of limitless potencies. All these potencies are perfectly
manifested in the spiritual world. For the manifestation of the individual souls one
particular potency, the tatastha sakti is employed.
“The imperfect material universes are also manifested by one of the Lord’s potencies.
That is the same potency, called the tatastha sakti.
Because one would say, tatastha, why would it be connected with both? But the thing is,
if you are dealing with the shadow, the shadow is connected at the point of tatastha, the
junction. The night is connected to the day through the twilight. Material world is dead
matter and it will remain dead matter. Why does it manifest? Because the living entity has a
desire to be involved in it. Krsna says in the Gita, it’s the jivas who are maintaining the
universe. That doesn’t mean that they are doing the work and maintaining it. Krsna is
maintaining it, but the reason it is being maintained is because of the jivas.
Who maintains the crib and I mean in its more archaic fashion?
Devotee (1): ...
Maharaja: But let’s say there is no baby?
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Devotee (1): …
Maharaja: Yes, so that means it’s the baby who maintains the crib. The mother takes care of
the crib and sees that it’s there, but the that it’s going on is the baby. So because of that,
therefore the living entities because they have a desire to be involved in karma, therefore
the material world is maintained. Otherwise it will just be pradhana.
So we don’t make a big thing out of that. But the Vaisesikas they make a big thing out of
that, no, it’s actually the Sankhyas they make a big thing out of this. Because the jiva desires
it, therefore this whole thing happens, this masculine and feminine thing, but they don’t see
God in it, they don’t see the nature of the jivas or anything, so everything is mixed up. But
the principle they are starting it on technically is correct, but it’s only correct in connection
with the Lord.
So the tatastha-sakti is what is manifesting them, because how will the material world be
manifest? Because we are saying material world. It doesn’t say material energy. The imperfect
material universes are also manifested by one of the Lord’s potencies. It doesn’t say material
energy. We have to distinguish. Material energy is pradhana. But the material universe is
manifest because there are jivas inside. Instead of Intel inside, jiva inside. That’s the
material world. The material world is because the jivas are inside. Means when the jivas
aren’t inside it is pradhana. As soon as the glance is there, the jivas go in with time factor
and their impure consciousness, which is based on therefore ego, false ego, then that
combination of those three injected into the material energy then creates mahat. Then all
the elements separate. Because the jiva is interested in material activity, so it separates.
So we can see at this point the mechanics of it then the Sankhya gives a very clear
picture. They can’t explain why that is there, like none of the other six systems, they can’t
explain why any of this is going on. Only the Vaisnava philosophy can explain that. But
technically it’s got, so at that point because the jivas they are interested, therefore it goes
apart. Now it going back again, of course, for the individual soul when he loses interest. But
if he doesn’t lose interest, it’s just when the Lord breathes in after three quarters of a
second. And then it all folds back up and goes back in, and then again three quarters of a
second later it comes out again.
So the tatastha-sakti is what’s manifesting it. Because the tatastha-sakti why it’s
involved is because it’s jivas. And as will be explained, tatastha means where you can
connect spirit and matter together. Because spirit is one thing, matter is another, they don’t
have anything to do with each other. So the tatastha-sakti, tatastha means it’s in the middle,
the marginal, it can pull these two together.
“This potency also acts instrumentally to create a world where spiritual beings and
inanimate matter stay together in the same realm.
Ok, it was the next sentence. Ok, instrumentally, it means it’s the instrument for it. It’s
not the actual working principle. Because it’s your karma that you are in this particular body
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and this and that. But that you can actually exist in this body, it’s the tatastha-sakti holds
the two together. Otherwise the two have nothing to do with each other.
It’s like they have this, they love to do this stuff, matter, anti-matter. But the point is,
the God particle this that, it’s the soul, that’s all. So the element is that, how do these two
hold together? So it’s the tatastha-sakti that holds it together. So your modern intellectuals
and artists and screenwriters they don’t understand this principle. So they say if the two
come together they’ll blow up. But they just don’t come together. So the reason they would
come together is through the tatastha-sakti, because the tatastha-sakti brings them together,
they don’t blow up. Because they wouldn’t blow up because they wouldn’t come close to each
other anyway. Like fish and helicopters they just don’t come together.
Devotee (1): If the helicopter blows up and goes into the water.
Maharaja: That’s true. Or if a volcano blows up, and then the fish comes in. I guess you can
arrange something like that. So the volcano blows up, the fish flies out of the water, lands
on the lap of the helicopter pilot, he freaks out so much, then the helicopter crashes, and
then the helicopter and the fish are together. Is that the scenario you were imagining there?
Something similar, ok.
In this way it creates a kind of relationship between the spiritual world and the material
world.
Very important that point, it creates a… relationship between the, I’ll read it again,
spiritual world and the material world. I’ll read it one more time, it creates a kind of
relationship between the spiritual world and the material world. So that means there is a
relationship there created by the tatastha-sakti. Because then in there, the Lord is coming in
the heart, that’s still in the material world, He is there with His associates. All these
different, the Lord has come with His pastimes. That means the spiritual world and the
material world are in the same plane at the same time.
Devotee (2): So the jiva is not tatastha-sakti, it is.
Maharaja: The jiva is tatastha-sakti, at the same time is it. It’s just like, there is internal
potency and then there is Sudama and Sridama who are internal potency. Because
ultimately you have to look at it, so then they’ll take it, ok, there is this tatastha-sakti that
kind of like stomps around and does all this stuff. But it’s not necessarily, because we don’t
see that that as a personality is brought out.
What’s brought out is because it’s what does the shadow go with? The shadow functions
on its own? The shadow functions with the person. So therefore the shadow is the potency
of the person. So the material world is the shadow of a person. So that means it’s the
internal potency. The svarupa-sakti her shadow is the material energy. Because it’s all one
package, there is you, there is your shadow, and there is the point where the shadow and you
connect. It’s all one.
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You say it’s funny, it’s out there, why he also got a shadow, you don’t have a shadow.
Then people start checking to see if your feet are touching the ground, stuff like that, if you
have fangs, anything, they start worrying, because they go together.
So that means the svarupa-sakti means internal potency and the shadow external
potency and the jivas where they are connected. So that potency, the svarupa-sakti, is the
tatastha-sakti. And so that whole arrangement of it, in other words, arranging the
environment of it and the operation of it that’s all done by yoga-maya, she is svarupa-sakti.
So then if it’s in connection with Krsna, then you are dealing with the spiritual world. If you
are not dealing with Krsna, then you are dealing with the material world. So yoga-maya and
maha-maya are the same person. It’s just whether she is manifesting as herself, or in the
original state, or as her shadow. That’s the thing, because it’s the Lord’s potency, the shadow
is also a person. So the tatastha is the connection between them, so it’s her potency.
So you hear of the internal personality, the external personality, you don’t hear of a
tatastha personality. So it’s not important. It’s just to hold them together. Because it’s just a
matter of holding them together, it’s not a matter of, you are walking this way, your shadow
is going off that way.
So that means that these two can be together at the same time, same place, without a
problem. Therefore one can see the material and the spiritual at the same time. So the jiva
in that environment makes a choice. So if he is not, let’s say, necessarily pursuing God
consciousness, but he is not absorbed in the material energy, then he can see both. So most
are attracted by the internal potency because of the nature of it. It’s so much more superior.
But some jivas, I won’t mention any names, get attracted by the material energy. And so
therefore then one is manifest in that aspect of the realm. Because they are both
functioning together. So the tatastha-sakti arranges that therefore you are in this side
instead of in this side. Because we have to remember, the tatastha-sakti is one of the
potencies of the svarupa-sakti, so it’s one person. So there is not a problem for that one
person to make these arrangements.
So you are dealing with something very subtle. It’s not like you are sitting there and
then you get on the wrong bus and therefore you end up in the material world. It’s a matter
of it’s the consciousness, it’s a mentality, because they are both happening at the same time.
So it’s a transformation. That’s what we are saying, we say parinamavada. Parinamavada
means there is a transformation of the consciousness. You transform the consciousness back
then you are in the spiritual world. It’s just that simple. Vivartavada will say there is no
transformation, it’s an illusion that it’s here. No, the living entity is in illusion, but they are
actually situated in the material aspect. Material energy is real. But that we see that it’s not
connected to the Lord and not one of His energies, that’s the illusion.
Devotee (3): Maharaja, is the pradhana the only manifestation of the material energy
without the involvement of tatastha?
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Maharaja: The point is, there is not going to be, in other words, it all goes together, because
the jiva is tatastha therefore he does makes these discriminations. And so that means as long
as jivas have been manifested, there has been those that picked the spiritual and those who
picked the material. Because that’s just the nature of it.
In other words, the water that’s on the beach, that thin bit of water on the beach, is that
the ocean or is that the beach? The water goes, when water is there, you can still see water
in it. You walk on it, it’s just there a little bit and then it slowly, so is that the ocean or is
that the beach?
Devotee (1): Both.
Maharaja: That’s the thing, you can see it in both ways. So that’s the principle, it can be
seen on both sides. So technically the jiva is not internal potency. So in that way if you are
going to define internal potency as spiritual, then the jiva is not. He is a different energy.
But he is the expansion of the internal potency, so that’s his natural position. Just as the
material energy’s natural position is connected to the internal potency, because it’s her
shadow. So in the same way, the jivas are supposed. So what’s not natural is where the
connection between the person and the shadow thinks that they are part of the shadow and
therefore completely ignore the person. That’s not natural. The point is it’s all connected.
Therefore the person moves their arm, she shadow moves their arm. In illusion you
think the shadow is moving its own arm independently. Reality is, no, the shadow is moving
the arm because the person is moving their arm. So very subtle points.
So these are things just explaining what’s there. In other words, when it’s said the
question about where does the jiva come from, how did he get in the material world other
than just the creation part, but how did he fall? It’s not a question to ask, because it’s already
been answered, this is the First Chapter of Jaiva-dharma, there is another 39 chapters after
this, so this is just beginning, and so if one didn’t catch it here, don’t ask the question,
because it won’t make any sense. So that’s the point.
…it creates a kind of relationship, because it’s not actually a relationship, but a kind of
relationship. So that one can appreciate both. So that way then the jivas have a chance to
see both because that’s their nature, they are on the border, and at the same time, those who
have chosen, means and then depending on what they that’s the point where we were saying
they can choose, and it’s also the point at which those who made a mistake and taken the
shadow can reverse their decision. Because those have taken the shelter of the internal
potency there is no need to reverse their decision, that’s the natural state.
“Spirit, which is conscious and pure, and matter, which is inanimate, are opposites.
So therefore we are in line with the internal potency, not with the external. Because we
could say, oh, we could be the border of the external potency that’s connected, no, but we
are on this side. Because it’s inanimate, we are not, we are conscious, it’s not. Internal
potency is conscious, we are conscious. But the same point, it’s unlimited and we are not.
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Therefore it is not really possible for the conscious spirit soul to have a relationship
with unconscious and inanimate matter.
It is not actually possible, but therefore Krsna’s potency creates it, so it looks like it.
That’s the illusion that you think I have a relationship with this dead matter. But we don’t,
it’s not actually possible. So that’s why he is using these soft terms here. It’s …a kind of
relationship, …not really possible. Because we actually think there is and we are functioning
in that in the conditioned state. So that is in one sense our reality. So within that then that
witin that, because it still is the shadow of the real person, it’s still connected whether we
understand or not. We take material energy is completely over here and the nonsense, and
then over here. But that’s coming from this idea of God and Satan, completely separate
things have nothing to do with each other. So in all these, where is the twilight? That’s the
point. It’s all or nothing. There is nothing in between, there is no gradation, so they can’t
work these things out.
“The individual soul is a small particle of spirit. Nevertheless, one of the Supreme Lord’s
potencies makes some individual souls somehow have a relationship with matter. The
potency that does this is called tatastha sakti.
So again he is defining this. Because we have to be very clear who we are and where we
belong. So then the rest of the book makes sense. Because we belong in the spiritual world,
so that therefore we have to be convinced.
“The place that exists between a river’s water and the dry land is called tata (shore).
Such a place touches both land and water. In that place between land and water the
attributes of both the land and water are manifested.
“The individual soul is spiritual. Nevertheless the spiritual soul may be placed under the
control of inanimate matter.
“Thus the individual soul is not like the spiritual world,
So in other words, we are spiritual but we are not like the spiritual world. So we can be
in the fire of the spiritual world, like iron and fire, but we are not like the spiritual world.
We are spiritual, but not like the spiritual world. Here is where that distinction is being
made.
which never comes into contact with the material world. Nor is the individual soul like
inanimate matter. In this sense the individual soul is neither spirit nor matter.
In this sense, but he is spirit. But he is not spirit like spiritual world’s spirit. So he is in
between. He is spiritual, but he is not like that that he can’t be overwhelmed by the material
energy. And he is not material energy. So therefore of the two his nature is connected with
the spiritual world. Because he is minute, he is powerless, he has to be under the control of
some higher force. So therefore you are taking one ten-thousand of the tip of the hair, that’s
one consideration. Then you are taking three quarters of unlimited or one quarter of
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unlimited. So what’s the packing order here? So it’s going to be internal potency, external
potency, and jiva. So the jiva has to be under one of these two.
But the jiva under the protection of the internal potency then is more powerful than
the material energy. Because the material energy can’t control him because he is therefore
situated in the fire of the spiritual world, and the spiritual world won’t come under the
control of the external potency. So by being in that fire you can’t come under the control,
because the internal potency can’t come under the control. Do you come under the control
of your own shadow? No. You are standing there and watching and your shadow starts
scratching its head and your arm suddenly… It doesn’t work like that.
That is why it is true that the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual spirit
souls are different beings eternally.
Because He is beyond internal and external. Internal is beyond external. But jiva is not
beyond external. So therefore he is not exactly in this case, he is neither spirit nor matter,
he is in between. But at the same time, his nature is like that of spiritual. But Krsna is
beyond spiritual. So we can see He is two stages away. So what is our connection to Krsna?
There is Krsna, then internal potency that’s touching Krsna, we are touching internal
potency, or touching external potency. So that means at any case we have to go through the
internal potency to get to Krsna whether we are on the liberated platform or on the material
platform, you still have to go through the internal potency. There is the locative being
applied. People want to know location. That’s the location. Krsna, internal potency, us. So
you have to go through the internal potency. There is no direct.
Interaction can be direct. But relationship is not direct. The grandchild can directly
interact with the grandfather, but the relationship is not direct, he is the grandson of the
grandfather.
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of the illusory potency maya. Maya
is under His control. On the other hand, the individual spirit soul may in some
circumstances find himself under the control of maya. Therefore the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, the individual spirit souls and the illusory potency maya are three distinct entities
eternally.
So now we have made a distinction between the jiva and the Lord, the jiva and the
internal potency, and the living entity and the material energy. Now in this statement it is
saying, He controls all of it, He is beyond all of it, and in this way then it puts it into the
perspective of all these four are individuals, at the same time, they are all under the Lord’s
control.
“That the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the eternal root of all existence is
confirmed by the following words of the Vedas (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13 and Svetasvatara
Upanisad 6.13):
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In other words, it’s the same verse. Many times you see the same verse exactly, even in
the first verse of the Purusa-sukta the first line of it is even also in the Brahma-samhita, it
comes in many places. So many verses are common between different sastras.
The Supreme Lord is eternal and the living beings are eternal.
Thus the individual spirit soul is a servant of Lord Krsna eternally. The spirit soul is
manifested from the Lord’s tatastha sakti. For this it may be concluded that the individual
spirit soul is simultaneously one and different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Because they come from the Lord, so they are non-different, but at the same time, they
are eternally different, because their nature is different.
“The individual soul may sometimes find himself under the control of the illusory
potency maya, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead is always the controller of maya. In
this way the individual spirit soul and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are different
eternally.
“The individual soul is spiritual in nature
Yes, spiritual in nature, it doesn’t mean he is internal potency, he isn’t that.
and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also spiritual in nature. Thus the individual
soul is one of the potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
“On the other hand, because he is part and parcel of Him, the individual soul is also not
different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead eternally.
“If the individual soul and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are simultaneously one
and different eternally, then the eternal difference between them is most important.
“The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality
of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual soul comes under maya’s control.
Like being saying there is nothing to do. So if he is simultaneously one and different, the
emphasis is on the difference, not on the one. Because the one it’s already there, there is
nothing to do. God is sat, we are cit. He is cit, we are cit. He is ananda, we are ananda. So
what’s to do? Nothing. But in the difference that’s where we are servant. He is master, we
are servant. Therefore on that platform of sac-cid-ananda that’s where we should be
rendering service.
“The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality
of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual soul comes under maya’s control. Then
the soul stays away from Lord Krsna.
Here also it brings out another, you could say, another element of Sankarsana. His
nature and duty. Because you have a nature. Means nature is there, but what does that
therefore do due to that nature? That’s still Sankarsana. So the nature and duty they go
together. So that means you have the nature, that means the duty goes along with it. So if
one wants his rights, fine, but then he must also accept his obligations. They go together.
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Then you can be inspired to engage your nature in a particular duty at a particular time,
that will turn into Pradyumna. The need for that, that will be Aniruddha. Then the
performance of that activity or that duty according to his nature, that will be Vasudeva.
Devotee (3): So duty is an inherent part of the field?
Maharaja: Yes, duty is an inherent part. That’s why Sankarsana is the one who establishes
dharma. So when Krsna says yada yada hi dharmasya, that’s Sankarsana, because He comes
to establish dharma, destroy the demons, protect the devotees, that’s Sankarsana.
If he forgets this duty, the individual soul comes under maya’s control. Then the soul
stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters
the material world.
So notice here, it’s very important to note, this he stays away from Krsna. Then the soul
stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the
material world. So staying away is first, then entering the material world. That’s that point,
that’s the point of envy, you stay away, because you don’t identify as servant of Krsna. Envy
is in the position of identity, so that means it’s Sankarsana. So when you don’t see your
actual eternal nature and duty then you take on another. That means you have to be
envious of the Lord because you are trying to be something different from the Lord, because
everything is the Lord. So you are forgetting that oneness. So therefore you don’t
understand as difference what is your duty. You think you are something else. Or you think
the oneness is there as you put the emphasis on the oneness. But you make the mistake I am
God, rather than there is a difference, I am minute. Because if the individual and Brahman
are one, why the emphasis on Brahman, on the bigger? What’s wrong with the smaller? It’s
all the same. Why the emphasis on the bigger? Because of that envy.
So this is the point, staying away from Lord Krsna, means if you don’t pay attention then
you’ll go the other way. So you are either going towards Krsna or away, there is not another
alternative. We think, no, we’ll strike off on our own path, but it doesn’t exactly work like
that.
So that also, all these things are answering how the living entity gets here, the position
from which he falls, how that situation even arises, because of the tatastha-sakti, and then it
actually technically happens, because he forgets his duty and therefore stays away from
Krsna, then he enters the material world.
One has to remember, the spiritual world is that place. So all what goes on here is what
goes on there. There it’s in perfection, here it’s not. There it’s perfect because it’s connected
to Krsna. Here it goes on because it’s not. The reflection looks the same. So that means
there are houses there, there is household duties there, there is children and families, there
is cooking and serving and eating, and all these different things are going on.
Now the living entity in that tatastha position who therefore does those and is not
interested in Krsna, then that means they are staying away from Krsna. So then that means
they’ll be attracted by the material energy. Because the spiritual energy means that which is
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always in connection with the Lord. So you are through the influence of the tatastha-sakti
functioning within that spiritual world where the two are held together, but you are not
interested in Krsna, you have forgotten your duty towards Him, your actual nature, then it’s
going to for you transform into the material.
Devotee (1): Is there a point where you are neither interested in Krsna nor material?
Maharaja: You have a few moments you can have like that. It’s like when you throw a ball
up in the air, there is a moment when it stops, it’s not rising or falling. But how long is that?
It’s just a moment. So the brahmanandis they get a moment, they come up and aham
brahmasmi, and then fall again. Because it would be too much of a shock to then come from
that platform back into the human species, therefore when they fall they take birth as grass.
It’s like you are in the middle of a city, it’s all cement, there is no grass, but there is a blade
of grass growing out of a crack in the sidewalk. That’s Mayavadis. So you don’t have to worry
stepping on them. I mean if you are considering the soul you are looking broad-minded, then
you can avoid. But if you are thinking Mayavadi, then. Therefore you uproot the Mayavadis,
so you go out and weed your garden, then you are weeding out all the Mayavadis.
“It is not possible to give an historical account describing when, in time, the soul first
fell into the material world. That is why it is said ‘anadi-bahirmukha’ (the living entity has
been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial).
It doesn’t say eternally. This is the mistake of the so-called, and I repeat so-called
grammarians, because that grammar is not connected to correctly our philosophy. Because
this word anadi means, it’s just termed like that, because no one can say. That’s why it says
sometimes, or it can happen, or like this, because generally it doesn’t happen, but it can
happen. If it’s one out of ten, you would use these softer terms. If it was 50/50, you could say,
well, it’s this or that. But it is one out of ten. Therefore it’s it can happen. Why it happens,
no one really knows, because the point is, who is writing this book? People from over there.
So they can’t understand why anyone would be so stupid as to pick here. They chose there.
It’s so attractive, so why would anyone. It’s just like you like strawberries, why would they
pick bananas when you have strawberries? Why would you do? It happens, you don’t know
why, but it happens.
This staying away from Krsna and the time of entering maya’s world are both different
from the soul’s eternal nature. They are perversions of it.
So it both it staying away from Krsna and the time of entering maya, so it makes it as two
different things. In other words, so both of them are perversions of the nature. So not being
interested in Krsna that’s a perversion. So this whole thing of not being interested in Vedic
culture, brahminical culture, we don’t need this and all that. So what’s their alternative?
…staying away from Krsna and the time of entering maya’s world. So you either have Krsna,
so it means simultaneously spiritual world, or not interested in Krsna, which naturally then
turns into material world. So if you are not interested in Krsna, in His processes, and His
culture, what’s your alternative?
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So therefore maybe in one’s sadhana one is interested in Krsna, one is connected with
Krsna there, but outside one’s sadhana then it’s still all Krsna. His name, that is the direct
form. Material world is indirect form. So if you can’t see that in connection with Krsna then
you are not interested in Krsna. So therefore you are in maya. So this just being practical
prabhu means I am in maya. But because of my false ego I am trying to present it in such a
way so it doesn’t look like I am in maya, because being in maya isn’t actually the right
position. So I don’t want to be known as that, because in the temple I chant, I lead the
kirtana, I do this and that. But outside it’s I just want to do whatever I want to do and I
don’t want anybody to get in my way. Because then I don’t want the authority of the Veda
or anything else telling me what to do. So then what is that? It’s material. Of course, the
chanting is more powerful, so slowly slowly it kind of drags you along. And then at one point
you actually understand that this is foolish.
“It is because he is in contact with maya and under her control that the soul’s temporary
nature and temporary duties are manifested. The eternal nature of the soul is one,
unchanged, and completely faultless. The temporary natures, created by contact with the
material world, are of great variety.”
After speaking these words, the saintly paramahamsa babaji stopped and began to chant
the names of Lord Hari. After hearing this description of the truth, the saintly sannyasi
offered dandavat obeisances and said, “O master, today I will think over all that you have
said. If I have any questions, tomorrow I will place them before your feet.”
That ends Chapter One. So because he is under the control of maya therefore he has his
temporary duties. If he is not under the control he doesn’t have these, because he doesn’t
identify, he works on his natural nature and natural duties. Otherwise then he has all these
other. So since we are engaged in temporary duties and temporary nature that still the
principle is your nature and your duties are connected to Krsna. That’s the position of the
soul, that’s the eternal position. So even if that nature and duties is temporary, still that
temporary position is engaged in the Lord’s service. That’s the process, so how to engage.
So we are saying we have a nature or I like to do this or that, great, but then engage it in
Krsna’s service, see it in connection with Krsna. And if it doesn’t naturally, nicely engage
on the Bhagavan platform, then you better find a Paramatma or Brahman platform to
connect it. And understand that the farther down you go, it’s progressive, but it is lower.
Your connection is through Brahman, that’s going to be lower. You see it from Paramatma
side, that’s higher. But still those two don’t in any way compare to the level of Bhagavan.
Because dealing with the Brahman or Paramatma, the happiness of that and situation in
that is greater than anything in the material world. But that doesn’t compare to the
relationship with the Lord, as seeing Him as Bhagavan.
So therefore even though one uses those techniques one should not be attached to them,
because it’s a lower platform, it’s not the actual, natural state. The natural state is Bhagavan.
Is that all clear? It’s interesting how all that is answered in the First Chapter. What was
this called this chapter? The Soul’s Eternal and Temporary Natures.
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Devotee (3): Maharaja, there was a distinction between moving away from Krsna and
entering material world. At the point of moving away before entering, is the soul…
temporary duties or…?
Maharaja: No, in other words, he would be performing his eternal duties but without any
connection to the Lord. Duties are duties.
In the spiritual world there children and they think of Krsna. Here there is children,
they don’t think of Krsna. So you could be in the spiritual platform and perform your duties,
there is children, taking care of the children, but not thinking of Krsna. So that means the
better place for you is the material world, because that will be a disturbance. Because you
have time.
So that’s why it’s said, means I think it will come up later, the living entity has three
chances before it actually enters the material nature. But it seems that it becomes very
determined at one point. But that will come up with time.
So then tomorrow we start Chapter Two, The Soul’s Eternal Nature is Pure and
Everlasting. This is quite big this one. (end of lecture) (end)
January 8, 2010
Maharaja:
Chapter Two
The Soul's Eternal Nature is Pure and Everlasting
Jiver Nitya-dharma Suddha O Sanatana
The next morning saintly Premadasa Babaji was plunged in the ecstasies of Vraja.
Although the saintly sannyasi wished to place some questions before him, there was no
opportunity. Then, in the afternoon, when they had finished their madhukari begging of
alms, they both entered the cottage of madhavi and malati vines. The saintly paramahamsa
babaji then kindly said, “O best of devotees, now that you have heard my explanation of the
true nature of the soul, what is your conclusion?” Happy to hear these words, the saintly
sannyasi asked, “O master, if the individual spirit soul is by nature only atomic in size, how is
it possible that his eternal nature is pure and perfect? If the soul is created at a certain point
in time, then the soul’s nature is also created at that time. If this is true, how can the soul’s
nature be eternally existing in past, present and future?”
Now remember, this is written like 150 or more years ago, but you can see it’s very
contemporary. Because the illusion is somehow or another modern man is more modern
than at any other modern time. But modern man today is actually pretty sad compared to
modern man previously. Modern man previously was much more thoughtful, much more
contemplative, much more understood the personal aspect, the relationships, religious,
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refined in talk, in behavior. But this mentality that all these things. Here is the same things,
so if He has created it, at what time, then what’s this that? These are the same questions
that are going now, just before it was asked in a very polite way. While now the tendency is
a little bit more in your face, and because I thought and my brain actually worked, I am so
proud of that and that I must feel that nobody else that ever happens, because it never
happens to me, but when it does it is so special, and only I can understand and it’s only
unique to me, so therefore in your face. But it’s the same thing.
Because that’s the thing, it was created in time, when is that time everybody wants to
know. They want the GPRS exact, latitude, longitude, they want the atomic time, day of the
week. This latitude, this longitude, and through so many degrees, then add this many tenth
of a second, then there was a little puff of smoke and then you appeared, on Thursday.
Hearing this question the paramahamsa babaji meditated on the lotus feet of Lord
Caitanya, smiled and then replied, “O noble-hearted one, even though he is atomic in size,
the soul is nevertheless perfect, pure and eternal. His being atomic is only in relation to his
substance. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsnacandra, is alone great in
substance. The multitude of individual souls are His limitless atomic parts. Although the fire
itself is not broken up into parts, many tiny sparks come from it.
That’s important, because Mayavadis will say, ok, He is the Supreme and you take all
these parts and then there’ll be nothing left. But the fire remains itself and produces so
many sparks. In fact, as it’s growing it produces more sparks.
In the same way Lord Krsna, the supreme conscious being, is not divided into parts, but
still a great multitude of individual spirit souls are manifested from Him. As each spark has
all the power of fire, so each individual soul has all the powers of consciousness. As each
spark has all the burning powers of fire, and can, in the right circumstances, start a fire that
will burn down the entire material universe, so each individual soul has the ability to fall in
love with Lord Krsnacandra.
Because if you fall in love with Him, then there is no material world, it burns to ashes
the whole material existence. Because we are attached to the material existence, we are
attached to, we say it’s this particular thing or that particular thing, but we are actually
attached to these principles. Boy is attached to girl, girl is attached to boy. We may
particularly like this boy or this girl now, but the principle is boy or girl, because next life it
changes. So that means it’s the whole material world. It’s not, oh, just, oh no, I am only in
this involved and this. No, you are actually connected with the whole thing, because the
principle. You like position, you like fame, you like wealth, you like power, you like
knowledge, you like renunciation. So it’s the whole thing. There is nothing left out. It’s just
you happen to be into this detail. Just like today, today you feel like eating this, tomorrow
you want to eat that. So you are working on that. So you can see the time, but if you make
the time frame bigger, it’s still the same thing. This lifetime you are like this, next lifetime
you are like that.
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That’s why if you develop love for Krsna, then that potency that’s there is so powerful it
burns up the material existence. So the soul technically is more powerful than the material
energy if he connects himself to Krsna. If he doesn’t, then nothing happens. The spark falls
on a place that’s not favorable then it gets covered by that environment. But if it’s favorable
then it starts a fire.
Devotee (1): Maharaja, I was reading about description of…the last statement is that, that
Prabhupada says that one cannot enjoy spiritual life in this body. When we are going to
leave, give it up, and I go back to Godhead and enjoy spiritual life. I am just trying to
understand, does it really…?
Maharaja: You want to enjoy now? Samadhi now. Prabhupada said, work now, samadhi later.
So they made a play on that, because they wanted Prabhupada’s samadhi to happen, they
said, samadhi now.
It’s like this, prema is where it starts, that means you have love for Krsna. There is
another eight stages beyond that. So the problem is, it will be explained in here at some
point, that the living entity this material body can only handle prema, it can’t handle
beyond that. So as one advances beyond that, this body can’t handle it. So only the spiritual
body can handle these things. This body will deal with one sense at a time. But the spiritual
body can deal with all five senses at one time. As it is one sense is immensely stimulated,
then that creates such intensity that it can be overwhelming. So what about five senses
doing exactly the same thing? And that’s just the mundane, so what about the spiritual? So
it does have its limitations.
So when they are talking about beyond prema, then the platform of prema it doesn’t
because, the platform of prema that’s even appreciated by those in santa-rasa. But as you go
up, the servant can be in there, it can go higher than that but there. But the cowherd boys
go beyond that. The parental rasa beyond that. The conjugal rasa beyond that.
It’s like the kid is playing out in the backyard in the mud enjoying making his mud pies
and having lunch. But that situation will not be able to appreciate being in the house and
eating a nice meal. Because you kind of putting, I am enjoying here and then I am enjoying
there and kind of like this. No, it’s like a drop to an ocean. You have to actually go, this
happiness here you have to take two oceans beyond. Material existence is like a drop
compared to the ocean of brahmananda. Brahmananda is like not even a drop, a fraction of
a portion of a drop to an unlimited ocean. Brahmananda is a limited ocean, which is very
big. So you are taking a drop here and that compares to an ocean, which compares to a
fraction of a drop compared to an unlimited ocean. So how is all that going to happen in
this little body? Ok, big body.
Devotee (1): …
Maharaja: So I mean even though I mean this body can handle the whole berserker bhava
and all that, the happiness that comes on that platform, so it’s very strong, but it still will
not be able to handle.
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Devotee (1): …bhava…?
Maharaja: Berserker.
Devotee (1): The Viking.
Maharaja: They go out nuts. You know berserkers? The Vikings would have this group of
absolute madmen and when a battle would start, they would take some kind of wild
intoxication, it wasn’t just alcohol, but some other kind of thing, like… or something.
Devotee (2): Mushrooms.
Maharaja: Mushrooms, ok. Then they would take off all their clothes and they would whack
each other until the skin went numb, and then they just went out with their helmet on and
their battle axe, and they wouldn’t just go up to a person…anything that moved they would
hit it. So you have a whole army of them going out, so that’s what we mean by going berserk.
So they are strong people.
So I am saying, even one is coming from such a background with such strong physique, it
still is not strong enough to handle the effects beyond prema. So it’s a very specific example
given for a very specific person.
It’s interesting how the veins look like tilaka.
Devotee (1): You noticed that?
Maharaja: Still, even despite that you still have to have a spiritual body.
He has the ability to be plunged in an ocean of love for Lord Krsna. As long as he is not
in touch with his original nature, the consciousness and atomic soul cannot manifest its
natural powers. In truth the nature of the soul is considered in terms of the soul’s perception
of others. Thinking, ‘What is the soul’s eternal nature?’, one should carefully search for the
truth.
In truth the nature of the soul is considered in terms of the soul’s perception of others. So
how you perceive others is actually how you can understand your nature. So here those who
see other living entities, they see the eternal spiritual souls, the servants of Krsna, just they
are in their conditioned state, that means they are on that level of realization. You see
others in terms of I and mine, or us and them, then you understand the nature or the
condition of the living entity. So here it’s even though the self-realization it’s according to
how the individual self is viewing the world.
Why are you smiling? You are appreciating your level of advancement by your
perception of the world?
The soul’s eternal nature is love. Therefore the soul is not unconscious or inanimate. It
is different from unconscious matter. The soul’s nature is to be conscious. The soul’s nature
is to love.
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So in other words, when he is conscious and he has that affection, then you can
understand he is coming to his natural state. But if there is envy there or he is lacking
consciousness, then that means he’s conditioned. So then in this we can see, even in
material life for it to go nicely, then the more you are conscious, the more you are able to
accommodate others, the better your work goes. So even materially you are successful on
how much you advance actually towards your natural position. Because it is the soul that is
performing the activity, so the soul in his conditioned state can never actually do nicely the
material work. Because the material energy is still Krsna’s energy. So the closer one is
getting, progressing towards one’s natural position, the better one can even function
materially. But the better you move towards that, the less you care about the material
though you are better at it.
This is energy. You want it, you can’t have it. You don’t want it, it’s there. It’s just the
way it is. But we want to want it and have it. It doesn’t exist. That’s the whole thing.
In its pure state, love is identical with devotional service to Lord Krsna. Therefore love,
manifested as devotional service to Lord Krsna, is the original nature of the individual soul.
So that love means it’s one may have affection for other living entities, but why?
Because they are actually coming from Krsna. They embody qualities of Krsna, that’s why
they are attractive. So it’s actually when that love is reposed in Krsna, then the whole thing
works. Then you can deal with everybody else, the other living entities and the material
nature, properly. But until it comes to that, then there is always going to be a mistake. Ok,
one has some affection for other living entities, great, but because it’s not connected to
Krsna it won’t be in the mode of goodness, it will be in the mode of passion, so you will see
different grades of souls. But if you connect to Krsna then you’ll see one grade of soul and
just different varieties of conditioning.
The individual soul may be situated in two states of existence 1. the soul’s pure state and
2. the soul’s state of material bondage. In the pure state the individual soul is manifested as
pure spirit only, free of any contact with inanimate matter. In his pure state the soul is still
atomic, and for this reason it is possible that he may change his state of existence. Because
Lord Krsna is the supreme consciousness, He never changes His state of existence.
So the point is, he is so small he can be easily overwhelmed. So he can change his state
even though he is in the pure state. Because this whole thing is, if we come from Brahman,
then technically then the Brahman is only sat, so how would sat produce cit and ananda? So
to demand that that’s what it is, it’s the same philosophy as the Mayavadis saying the
Brahman would produce illusion when Brahman doesn’t have any illusion. Brahman is not
in illusion, has no variety, but somehow or another it will create all that. So that’s Mayavada
philosophy. So to say that the soul comes from Brahman is technically Mayavada
philosophy, because where does the cit and ananda come from?
The brick is eternal, the concept is eternal, but the point is it’s not conscious. So that’s
the thing, where does happiness, is the brick happy? The brick is sitting there, oh, it’s so
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nice. Great. I am in this building, I could have been in something else, I could have been in a
toilette or something. It doesn’t sit around. So it can’t be like that.
So that position means so he can change his state, means from the pure state he can
change the state. The thing is, oh, if it’s the spiritual world, it’s pure and there can be no
impurity there, but the jiva can change his state. That’s why these things are important. You
don’t catch these, then the whole rest of philosophy will be off. Prabhupada says, you are
doing a big equation, then if you get one calculation off, even though every other
calculation is correct, the ultimate thing will be wrong. So that’s what happens. So these
things are there.
And as far as we mentioned in the last chapter, then the tatastha-sakti is what’s creating
the spiritual and the material world simultaneously being in the same place. They overlap by
the tatastha-sakti, like day and night overlap because of twilight. So the material and the
spiritual worlds overlap by the tatastha-sakti. So that means you can have the spiritual world
which is beside the material world and the soul is pure in its natural state, but it can because
of its size it can change its existence. Krsna is so great He can’t because He is everything
anyway, and material is only a part of that. So how would you stuff the unlimited totality
into a smaller portion?
Devotee (1): Does the brahmajyoti, is it from…?
Maharaja: No, it’s the effulgence of Krsna’s qualities. That’s what it is. Jivas may be there,
but it does not consist of jivas. The Kaustubha gem that’s jivas. But the Brahman is the
effulgence of Krsna’s good qualities, all His qualities. Because there is unlimited qualities,
then they are self-effulgent, that’s the Brahman.
So that’s why when we say Brahman, still it’s based on a person. So when we are dealing
with Brahman we are dealing with Parabrahman. Because we know the quality of Brahman
comes from a person.
Lord Krsna is supreme, perfect, pure and eternal. In the conditioned state the individual
spirit soul is pathetic, broken and impure. In his original state, the soul is great, unbroken,
pure and eternal. When the individual soul is in his pure state, his pure nature is
manifested. But when the individual soul is in contact with the illusory potency maya, the
soul’s pure state is not manifested. Then his original nature is perverted and he is impure.
Here perverted, because then it’s for him. Whatever is his interests, his activities, his
identifications, his goals, his happiness, it’s not in connection with the Lord. That’s the
perversion. Though technically it’s still the Lord’s energy. So the perversion is not that he is
in the material world, because great acaryas come to the material world, Krsna comes to the
material world. So the problem is the consciousness is perverted. So then that’s the thing.
Pathetic, because what they get involved in is very small, what is their interest, their
needs, their endeavors. Like Bhumi-devi in the Twelfth Canto is laughing at all the great
kings of the earth that they are fighting over land that’s her that they can’t keep control of.
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They get control and then very soon they die, and another king comes in, I am the lord of
the earth, and takes over, then he dies. So she just laughs. So it’s pathetic.
Broken, impure. His desires are impure, therefore his endeavors, whatever he does, his
results. And in this broken, it’s not complete, that connection with the Lord, that
relationship, that elements those are not there. So he tries to put together relationships
here, but the problem because of the perverted mentality he has to be the center of the
relationship, rather than work it out that it’s a balance between oneself and the other
person. It’s always got to be about ourselves. Even if it’s about the other person, that’s our
identity, that I do everything for everybody else.
Then he does not take shelter of Lord Krsna. Then he is tormented by happiness and
suffering. When he forgets the service of Lord Krsna, the soul finds himself situated in the
material world of repeated birth and death.
So he says When he forgets the service of Lord Krsna, the soul finds himself situated in the
material world… So what does that mean? What does that infer? Means in other words, he
was situated not in the material world before that. But it can’t be Brahman because
Brahman can’t be the source. Because the question is where did we fall from, not where did
we come from, so where do you fall from. It’s just like where did he fall from? He fell off the
third floor. Where did he come from? That’s another thing. Oh, he was at the goshala, he
came over here and went up and looked, and then he dropped his hat and so he tried to get
it and then he fell off.
So you fall from the state of Brahman. The mahat is Brahman. One is in the stage of
suddha-sattva, but the consciousness is impure. Not pure means it’s not connected to the
Lord. So from that state then you fall into the material world, you are situated there. So
then, yes, you fell from Brahman, but not brahmajyoti Brahman, mahat Brahman. At the
same time, the spiritual world is Brahman so even if one is within the area of the internal
potency, but one is not so interested in it, more interest is there in the external potency, still
that is Brahman. Because until you accept prema, then spiritual means Brahman. Prema
means then it’s love for Krsna. Before that there is either it’s just situated transcendentally.
So being situated transcendentally that is the Brahman platform. So you can say there you
fell from Brahman. You have a relationship but you are not taking advantage of the
relationship, you are comfortable to just remain on the Brahman platform.
If that wasn’t a tendency, why would the warning be put that the happiness of
brahmananda is nothing compared to the happiness of love for Krsna? So why would that be
there? We generally take it those quotes are for the Mayavadis. They are for the Mayavadis,
but they are also for us, when we get to the Brahman platform, Brahman realization, that we
aren’t satisfied there.
Devotee (1): Does this Brahman come from bhava to prema? So this Brahman is like, so
anybody’s inclination, because straight from there…
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Maharaja: No, the platform of bhava is the Brahman platform. But the difference is if you
are interested in developing love for Krsna though you haven’t, it’s called brahma-bhuta. So
the stage is brahma-bhuta that you are on the stage of Brahman, but your purpose is
developing love for Krsna. So you are not much interested in the stage of bhava, you are
going through the stage, but it doesn’t distract you. But you make that mistake by being
situated on that platform but not being interested in Krsna. So you are just satisfied, happy
on the Brahman platform.
Just as you can be situated here in this body and be on the Brahman platform, like
Sukadeva Goswami or the four Kumaras, you can also be situated in your spiritual body and
be on the Brahman platform. What’s the difference? Just a different kind of better quality
body. You can be in maya whether you are sitting in your Polski Fiat or you are sitting in
your Lamborghini. So it doesn’t really matter what the different thing is. Have you ever
seen a Polski Fiat?
Devotee (1): I think so, yes, in Poland.
Maharaja: It’s about from that column up to here. It’s a special, Fiat made it just for Poland. I
think Suhotra Maharaja used to call it the yogi’s car. Because you had to be a yogi to be able
to actually sit inside, it was so small. But the Poles would fit five people in it. How I don’t
know, but they were yogis I guess.
As long as he remains pure, the individual soul retains his original nature, and then he
understands that he is a servant of Lord Krsna. However, when he comes into contact with
the illusory potency maya, the soul becomes impure. In that condition the understanding of
Lord Krsna’s service is diminished. Then the soul accepts many different material bodies,
one after another.
Means his understanding of Lord Krsna’s service, means he understands that it’s there,
but somehow or another the material nature attracts him. That’s why it said, somehow or
another, it doesn’t make sense. In other words, the souls that have chosen Krsna, the souls
that are nitya-siddha, that were never nitya-baddha, it doesn’t make sense why anyone
would choose this place. It just doesn’t make sense to them. That’s why they say, somehow or
another it happened, but it doesn’t make sense. They can explain what you are going
through, but why anyone would ever choose that doesn’t make any sense to them.
So those who were nitya-baddha and then have become nitya-siddha, I have heard that,
many times they are the ones that will come and preach. Because they can relate to this
situation though they have no interest, but they have experience, so therefore then that’s
there.
Like Prabhupada mentions the six Goswamis, Rupa and Raghunatha they were always
nitya-siddhas, but the other four have become nitya-siddhas. Means the other four
Goswamis were conditioned and have perfected themselves, and so now they are coming as
nitya-siddhas. Like he mentioned, Sanatana Goswami was sadhana-siddha. He mentions this
in the Madhya-lila. It’s another one of those quotes he’ll mention it like once, it’s one of
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those things. Because the point is once one comes to that eternal platform, what’s the
difference?
You have a piece of iron it’s in fire. So as soon as it manifest it moved into the fire. And
then another piece decided to stay outside the fire, then it goes into the fire. Is there any
difference once they are in the fire between this one…? Oh, this one is not quite as hot as
that one. There is no difference. So therefore nitya-siddha means you have come to the
platform of prema, then you are nitya-siddha, because you’ll be eternally perfect.
Otherwise it makes too much distinction between souls. And what mode inspires
distinction between souls?
Devotee (1): Will there be something like Jaya and Vijaya…?
Maharaja: Wait a minute, you didn’t answer my question. You didn’t even hear the question.
You were so busy. You understand?
Devotee (3): Passion.
Maharaja: Mode of passion. Krsna says in the Gita, mode of passion you think that the souls
are different. So to think that the nitya-siddha souls are different from the souls that had
come to the transcendental platform, no, there is no difference. In fact, they don’t even
make any distinction between the nitya-siddha jivas and the internal potency. The
maidservants and the gopis they don’t make a distinction one is internal potency, one is
jivas, they don’t make a distinction. The sages of Naimisaranya who became gopis, they
don’t make distinction between them and the eternal associates.
So on that platform everything is pretty straight-forward. It is very simple actually. The
complexities are service to Krsna and the dealings with rasa, how to enhance that rasa, how
to bring it out, but philosophically very straight-forward. Here is gets all complicated,
because we are complicated.
Devotee (1): I just try to understand the other four Goswamis, is this just like Jaya and
Vijaya is this just like them? …like the chief, one of the chief, but they come here and then
get implicated, because they are known like the chief manjaris of the…?
Maharaja: They are known to be what?
Devotee (1): I mean you get asta-sakhis and you have the chief manjaris of each asta-
sakhi…the six Goswamis…and Lokanatha, they are the chief of each asta-sakhis, chief
manjaris.
Maharaja: Could you maybe just for the enlightenments of us all here maybe explain what
sampradaya you are from? Which line are you from? Because our line is Lalita and Visakha
are the chief of them, and Rupa and Rati are the chief of the manjaris. But you said
Bhugarbha Goswami and Lokanatha Goswami, those are other manjaris.
Devotee (1): …eight. There are six Goswamis are mentioned, two others. Sometimes eight…
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Maharaja: But then you also have Ananga, so that’s nine. So what’s your point? Is there
actually a point?
Devotee (1): My question is… if they are sadhana-siddhas, sadhana-siddhas they…
Maharaja: Who is sadhana-siddhas?
Devotee (1): Like Sanatana Goswami, he is considered like he is chief manjari, so how can
he get sadhana-siddha?
Maharaja: So once you go there you never return, so there is a problem? When they are all
sitting around, then one maidservant will lean over to another and did, did you know he was
a sadhana-siddha? Why the distinction? This is basically why this point is only mentioned
once, and probably why I should stop mentioning it.
It’s there to make it so you appreciate that when you come to the transcendental
platform, then one is on the same transcendental platform as the other eternal associates,
though one is there in a hierarchy in your position as servant of the servant of the servant,
there is no difference between.
You have a glass of water and you have some pebbles inside, and you have some pebbles
that are not in the water. If I take one of those pebbles that are not in the water and put it
in the water, then, it’s in the water but it’s actually a stone that’s not in the water, or is it
just another stone in the water?
You are following them, therefore that aspect of the pastime will be manifest with them
as the lead. That’s why I was asking what line you are in, because others have another order
of who’s the prominent ones. Like for us it’s Lalita and Visakha. But for the Nimbarkas, at
least some lines in the Nimbarkas, it’s Sukadeva Goswami and Yamuna-devi they are on
each side of Radha and Krsna. So they have a completely different yoga-pitha than us. So
that’s our yoga-pitha. You have a problem with that yoga-pitha?
Devotee (1): Absolutely not.
Maharaja: Ok.
Devotee (1): I am satisfied with it.
Maharaja: You are satisfied, ok, so you are saying then you are basically within this line.
Devotee (1): Yes, I am repoining.
Maharaja: Rejoining, ok. Welcome back, welcome back.
When he is in contact with the illusory potency maya, a body of gross and subtle
material elements covers the individual soul. First, the soul identifies himself with the subtle
material body.
Because that will be the intelligence and the mind. The soul his consciousness reflects
into the intelligence, he identifies with that, which reflects into the mind, and then he’ll
identify with that. So then that will reflect, extend it to the body.
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Second, he identifies himself with the gross material body. Third, he identifies himself
as the subtle and gross bodies mixed together. In this way the soul’s conception of his
identity becomes changed. In his pure state the individual soul is an unalloyed devotee of
Lord Krsna.
When he identifies himself as the subtle material body, the soul thinks of himself as the
enjoyer of the fruits of his work. In this way his conception of himself as a servant of Lord
Krsna becomes covered over by his misidentification of himself as the subtle material body.
So what he desires and therefore what he endeavors for, the results of that are for
himself, instead of for the Lord.
When he identifies himself as the gross material body, the soul thinks, ‘I am brahmana’.
‘I am a king’. ‘I am poor.’ ‘I am unhappy.’ ‘I am defeated by disease and grief’. ‘I am a wife’. ‘I
am a husband’. Thus the soul’s misidentification with the gross material body is manifested
in a great variety of ways. (end of lecture) (end)
January 11, 2010

Maharaja: When the soul thus has a false conception of his identity, his original nature
becomes perverted. The original nature of the pure soul is pure love. That pure love appears
in the subtle material body in a perverted way as material pleasure, suffering, lust and
hatred. That pure love is seen in the gross material body in an even more perverted way as
material eating, drinking, and a host of other so-called pleasures derived from contact with
inanimate matter. In this way you can see that the soul’s eternal nature is manifested only
when the soul is in his pure state of existence. When the soul is situated in material
bondage, only the soul’s temporary nature is manifested. Thus the eternal nature of the soul
is that the soul is perfect, pure, and eternal. The temporary nature of the soul I will describe
in more detail on another day.
In the scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam pure devotional service to Lord Visnu is described.
That devotional service is the eternal activity of the individual soul. Three different
conceptions of the soul’s nature are described in the material world. They are: 1. the eternal
nature, 2. the temporary nature and 3. the nature that contradicts the eternal nature.
The conception that rejects the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and
the eternal soul is the third of these.
…the nature that contradicts the eternal nature. Because one is thinking that one is
actually coming to the eternal platform, but it contradicts. Because the eternal nature is
actually a servant. So this idea that you will come to the liberated platform, but actually if
you look at it, that means you won’t exist as an individual. So your existence isn’t there. So
in other words, they are saying, existence on the eternal platform, existence on the material
platform, and non-existence.
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So somehow or another I don’t know why the soul gets so wrapped up in this idea of
non-existence, but it’s basically coming because of ignorance. Otherwise if you really think
about it, you can only say that you are happy or sad because you are an individual. And
there idea is if you are liberated you will be happy, in fact, it’s the happiness beyond
whatever you can get here. But then happiness means something that you can experience,
and happiness means it should be, if it’s not supposed to be material, it should be something
that lasts. Because material happiness goes on for some time and ends. So if we are talking
about spiritual happiness, then it would interesting if it lasts, otherwise if it’s just as
temporary as here, what’s the use? But it’s only because you are an individual that you can
experience happiness. And so if you stop becoming an individual, where is the question of
happiness? How would you be able to define that? So it’s interesting, they say pleasure and
pain that comes from the material world, it’s illusion, it’s not actually there, because you are
not separate. So if you go back to that then you are happy. But then the point is if you are
happy, that means you are experiencing something. So that means it would have to be a
mind at least. So all these things are very contradictory.
Because the nature of the soul is always that of existence and the nature of the soul is
always that of happiness, so then they are going to think eternal happiness, they don’t
understand that their definition of the philosophy doesn’t make any sense at all. So
therefore those who don’t make any sense at all are the third nature. The second one makes
some sense, it’s just foolish, because you want to be happy through activities, it’s not going to
happen here. It’s going to happen in the spiritual. So that’s the actual intelligent natural
position. Less intelligent is the second. The third one doesn’t even come into the realm of
intelligence though the strange thing is this is always attributed to the jnanis – the jnanis,
the philosophers, all these things. The ones who think they are so intelligent, but their
intelligence is based in ignorance. So they very intelligently calculate ignorance, so they go
deeper into it. That’s why the Upanisad says that they are worse than the karmis.
The conception that accepts the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and
declares that one should employ temporary, material means to win His mercy, is the second
of these, the conception of the soul’s temporary nature. The conception that declares that
by employing the activities of spiritual love one should strive to attain direct service to Lord
Krsna is the first of these, the conception of the soul’s eternal nature.
So here is this conception that God is there and should engage the temporary material
energy, engaging by making adjustments in the material energy you’ll gain His pleasure.
That would be the second or temporary nature. So then we can see from there then you can
get more degraded than that, because here you are accepting Godhead, but you are thinking
that your material activities, being nice, being good, giving in charity, that’s all the ways you
are actually going to get the Lord’s mercy. But the point is Him as a person what has that got
to do with Him? It may be His parts and parcels, but the point is His parts and parcels are
happy because of their connection to Him. So trying to take care of them separately from
the Lord, that’s nicer than taking care of yourself separately from the Lord. But in any case
the point is that it’s separate from the Lord.
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…Your six schools of philosophy accept the supremacy of the Lord if they accept God,
and they accept the eternality of the soul. But all of them you are adjusting material energy,
and somehow or another you are going to come to a good position. Unfortunately most of
them are mixed with the third concept, and so then that’s not. But even if it’s not, it’s based
on karma, you think your good work is going to be good for Him. But the thing is in any case
you are separated from the Lord and the other living entities are separated from the Lord, so
you are taking care of each other, but God doesn’t really come into the equation. He is
considered, but it’s not actually about Him. So the natural nature is considering Him as a
person. Then you engage in activities that are meant for His pleasure. And so that then is
the first position.
Now one may ask, but even in that first position you are engaging the material energy in
His service. But the difference is, you are not looking at it as material energy, you are
looking at it as His energy that you are engaging in His service. So there is a difference.
Because then you are going to look at it from the platform of it’s His that works according to
His rules, it’s His energies, and so there is laws governing those energies that He defines. So
you are following His directions you do that out of affection to serve Him. But ultimately it’s
going to be you want to serve Him out of love, then it comes back to whatever is available.
You want to cook lunch, but it depends what’s available in the kitchen.
So there is going to be these are the three positions and then there is going to be some
overlap. The ideal first position is, it’s being done out of affection. The consideration is not
the material at all, in other words, we have nothing to gain from it. So purely, means it’s in a
fully surrendered position you serve the Lord, and through the influence of the tatastha-
sakti you are dealing with the material energy and using it in His service.
The second will be you are dealing with the material energy, it is in line with what you
like, but at the same time, you are not doing it for yourself, you are doing it for the Lord. So
it’s basically the first position. But at the same time, it does have a touch of the second
position, because there is a comfort in that area.
Then within that the next level down is then, you are doing it because you are
interested in these things and you have an interest to get the results of these things. But you
are willing to give the result to the Lord though it’s your result you are giving to the Lord.
And so then in this position, then it’s the first, but it’s very strongly touched by the second.
Then within the materialists they then through the material energy try to please the
Lord to get His mercy, and that mercy may take on getting nicer material facility, or it may
even take on coming to the third concept, or a mix between them, you do good work.
Because all of the, not all of them, but anything that you would say becomes popular or
worthwhile in the third position there then is accepting that you have to do good work for
others. So there is a touch of the second that makes it popular. But if there is no touch of
the second, there is only purely the third, the some intellectuals may be interested in it, but
it stays within a very small club. Generally amongst friends in a bar, or amongst friends in
some kind of intellectual club.
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Devotee (1): Men’s club.
Maharaja: Yes, men’s club, sitting around drinking their.
Devotee (2): Maharaja, when we are taking the comfort you said in the second…
Maharaja: Taking the?
Devotee (2): The comfort that is created in the second, you mentioned the comfort when
we take the second option that we have our own that we offer to Krsna.
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (2): Does it also mean out of health reason that we have to choose within a variety
of…?
Maharaja: Out of health reasons?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Maharaja: Wouldn’t at all times health reasons be considered?
Devotee (2): Yes, but it seems to that’s more selfish.
Maharaja: I don’t quite understand the question.
Devotee (2): Because the first I see it’s when…
Maharaja: Ok, go back, the first one is when Krsna, sarva-dharman-parityajya, means you
just want to please Krsna, that’s your only intention. But at the same time, you are within
the material sphere, so you engage the material energy, because that’s all that’s available, in
His service. The second option is the madhyama who is working on the platform of
naiskarmya, but he generally will tend to act within the activities that are compatible with
his conditioned nature, though there is no way that he is considering that as for himself.
The third what I was talking about was that is sakama, the neophyte, they are interested in
material energy, but they are willing to engage it in connection with the Lord, but it’s still
it’s purely their interest.
Devotee (2): So basically that motive goes beyond the form…
Maharaja: The motive is your…
Devotee (2): That is pure.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s a matter of the motive.
Devotee (2): That makes perfect sense.
Maharaja: Yes, like that, ok.
I just read that again. The concept that rejects the existence of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead and the eternal soul is the third of these. So that would be all of them, impersonalism,
Buddhism, pessimism, any of these kind of different things, they are all going to do that.
Because they don’t deal with God, they don’t deal with the soul.
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The conception that accepts the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and
declares that one should employ temporary, material means to win His mercy, is the second of
these, the conception of the soul’s temporary nature. So in other words, they take the soul’s
temporary nature and take that as natural, they accept God. So these will be all your
modern religions that are monotheistic, or any kind of things, even your demigod worship
and all these different things.
The conception that declares that by employing the activities of spiritual love one should
strive to attain direct service to Lord Krsna is the first of these, the conception of the soul’s
eternal nature. Notice, they mention then direct service, because these others, for the other
two, service to the Lord is not even a consideration. It just does not come up. The Buddhists
aren’t interested in direct association or service, and basically speaking you can say none of
the other world religions are either. It’s not something they discuss. They say you go to
heaven, if you don’t you go to hell. So depending upon which more north generally it’s they
talk more of the heaven, well, actually they all talk about, I guess it depends on where you
are. But the element is, it’s your inspiration to engage the material nature in a nice way is
you’ll get a nice result, and if you don’t you go to hell, basically. But the service to God and
all that. It’s just you win His mercy, it doesn’t mean you want to have a relationship with
Him. And the first one, you don’t even accept He exists and you don’t accept you exist, so
then how you’ll have a relationship?
The conception of the soul’s eternal nature may be described differently in different
countries, among different peoples, and in different languages, but these descriptions all
refer to the same eternal nature of the soul. Still, the Vaisnava religion followed in India is
the original form, the prototype of all these conceptions of the soul’s eternal nature.
So he is saying that any concept anywhere is actually coming originally from India.
That’s the prototype, that’s the natural, because India is the center, you could say it will be
the station, from here you go up to the higher planets, from here you go down, but it always
comes back to here. When your karma in the heavenly planets runs out, you come back
here. When it’s run out the other way, you come back here.
And the form of the Vaisnava religion that Lord Caitanya, who is the son of Saci and
the Lord of our hearts, taught the world is the purest form of the Vaisnava religion, the form
that the great souls filled with the bliss of pure spiritual love accept and follow.”
Because you are dealing with pure unalloyed devotion. The others are dealing with pure
devotion. But they are dealing with prema. While here it’s then you are going beyond
prema. And it’s there is no interest yourself. Even you are taking the dvaita-advaita, their
position is serving of Radha and Krsna in raganuga, in spontaneity. But it’s always going to
be the element that Radha and Krsna are always together. Because if they are always
together, then you are always happy. So it’s getting as close as possible. I think also that
within there then, no, Vallabhas are a different line. All these ones who actual worship
within Vrndavana, but still there is the element that they want to see everything nice.
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So the Gaudiyas are the only ones that accept the form of the pastimes of Vraja in
which Radha and Krsna will be separated, and they actually are physically separated. Not
just they think they are separated, like the pastime at Prema-sarovara, where they are sitting
next to each other and someone says Madhu’s gone. So Radharani thinks Krsna has gone,
but she is sitting right next to Him. Not that kind, those are cute and wonderful pastimes,
but we are talking about that actually Radharani is at home, Krsna is at His home, they are
separated.
So the pain of that, the thing is, all other Vaisnava religions are not interested in, they
don’t want to go through that pain. So that’s what sets the Gaudiyas apart from any of the
others. Because the point is whatever is connected to Krsna is wonderful. So it doesn’t
matter what the form it takes. So then because of this then it can increase dynamically
beyond anything else. Because the other is if it’s always nice then it’s always going to be nice
and it’s just going to gradually increase its niceness eternally. But when it goes into
separation that means then the niceness can be even greater than it was before the
separation. So it can increase dynamically. Also when it goes from one to the other, the
experience is much greater. So the ability or the willingness to be able to surrender oneself
or be comfortable with going from extremes in both directions that only the Gaudiyas have.
Devotee (1): That’s the last verse of Siksastakam.
Maharaja: Yes, like that. The point is it’s just Krsna’s pleasure. So the whole point is it
increases that how nice it is by the separation.
Here it’s a problem, because separation you are dealing with dead matter. If the sense
and sense object are contacting each other, then you actually get the experience, and it’s in
the present, so it can be appreciated, it will be counted as happiness. As soon as the sense
and the sense object are separated it’s in the past, so there is technically no connection with
it. And since the object and his name and thinking about it are different, you are not
actually in connection. So therefore here you don’t want any separation, because materially
it doesn’t work that way. But on the transcendental platform with Krsna, then if it’s about
Krsna, even you are thinking about in the past, because Krsna is eternal, then is there. If it’s
in the future, then He is present now, it still comes back to the present. So that’s why there
is only a concept of past, present, and future, but there is only eternally present. That’s what
Brahma-samhita describes.
So what is being offered, it’s not just a matter, well, there is this and there is that and we
are one option. No. This is the highest option. Then other Vaisnava… then that’s just below
that. And then everything after that doesn’t even really count. That’s all.
At this point the saintly sannyasi folded his hands and said, “O master, at every moment
I see that what was taught by Lord Caitanya, the son of Saci, is the best form of the pure
Vaisnava religion. I also see that the theory of impersonal monism taught by Sankaracarya is
very wretched and horrible.
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“Still, a thought has risen in my mind, a thought I will not accept unless it is first placed
before your feet. It is this: Is the state of deep ecstatic spiritual love revealed by Lord
Caitanya really different from the state of merging into the impersonal Supreme?”
Because they are talking about brahmananda being a spiritual platform, it’s also ananda-
maya. So within ananda-maya is anything that’s actually out of the material world. But for
us when we define it, we define it as serving Krsna, as prema. We tend not to define it as the
impersonal. It’s just like you say liberation, so there are four kinds of liberation that are in
Vaikuntha that are personal. So in that way then sayujya is never really accepted as a form.
It’s there technically.
So he wants to know what the difference is or if there is a difference. Because you are
out of the material world, so would there be a difference in this?
When he heard the name “Sankaracarya” the paramahamsa babaji at once offered
dandavat obeisances. Now he spoke the following words:
Because Sankaracarya is Lord Siva, the greatest of devotees.
“O noble-hearted friend, one should always think: ‘Sankaracarya is Lord Siva himself.’
Sankaracarya is actually the spiritual master of all the Vaisnavas. That is why Lord Caitanya
Mahaprabhu honors him with the title acarya. Sankaracarya is a perfect Vaisnava.
Most others when they talk about Sankaracarya they just say Sankara. They say
according to Sankara then in his bhasya. So even those who are followers of Sankaracarya
they say Sankara. We are the ones that always say Sankaracarya. We are the ones that are
respectful.
“When Sankaracarya appeared in Bharata varsa there was great need for a guna-avatara
of the Lord. The voidist philosophy of Buddha had already practically destroyed the
teachings of the Vedas and the duties of varnasrama-dharma. Voidist Buddhism even denied
the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although it did hint at the existence
of the individual soul, Buddhism denied the soul’s true eternal nature.
It hinted only, because you are working with it, but actually ultimately they say there is
nothing. Like impersonalism is you turn on the light, and voidism is you turn off the light.
At that time the brahmanas had practically become Buddhists and practically
abandoned the religion of the Vedas.
“At that time extraordinarily powerful Lord Siva descended as Sankaracarya to this
world, re-established the authority of the Vedas, and transformed voidist Buddhism into the
philosophy of Vedic impersonalism. For succeeding in this extraordinary work, the world
will be long indebted to Sankaracarya.
Because then you are bringing it from, technically speaking you can say, a modern
platform back into a Vedic context. Because modern means anything non-Vedic. So
Buddism is also modern. That’s why it works so well with modern man.
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“Every work in this world may be considered in two ways. Some work is useful in the
context of a certain period of time, and other work is useful for all time. Sankaracarya
performed work that was very important for that particular period in history.
From his efforts many good results came. Sri Ramanujacarya and Sri Madhvacarya built
the palace of pure Vaisnava religion on the walls and foundation created by Sri
Sankaracarya. Therefore Sankaracarya is a great friend of the Vaisnava religion. He is one
of its founding teachers. The benefit created by Sankaracarya’s teaching is now enjoyed,
without any effort on their part by the Vaisnavas.
Because the Vedic culture is accepted, Bhagavad-gita from that, all the Vedic literatures,
so you can discuss those very freely and comfortably because of him. Otherwise before that
the literatures weren’t accepted. The Buddhists don’t accept them.
“Individual souls still in the grip of material bondage urgently need to understand their
relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The individual soul is different from
and superior to the gross and subtle material bodies in the material universes. The Vaisnavas
and Sankaracarya agree on this point. They do not disagree on the spiritual nature of the
individual soul.
“Liberation is defined as becoming free from the material world. Both agree on this also.
Up to the stage of liberation Sankaracarya and the Vaisnavas agree on many points.
Prabhupada also points this out, the process of liberating yourself from the material
energy what we will follow, what the Sankaras follow is basically the same thing in principle.
They also preach naiskarmya. So within our process the element of naiskarmya is what gets
you out of the material world, and the process of worhsiping Krsna is what gets you into the
spiritual world. Therefore Narada Muni he is the preacher of Pancaratra and naiskarmya,
because by those two processes then you can establish yourself on the platform of love of
God, and doing that you are becoming freed from the material energy at the same time.
“By worshipping Lord Hari one purifies his heart and attains liberation. Sankaracarya
teaches this also.
“However, about the state of existence that is superior to impersonal liberation
Sankaracarya is silent.
He doesn’t say it doesn’t exist, he is silent. He just takes it up to one level and stops
talking.
Sankaracarya knew well that if the individual soul employed the worship of Lord Hari as
the way to proceed on the path of liberation, the soul would begin to taste the pleasures of
devotional service and would eventually become a pure devotee of Lord Hari. It is for this
reason that Sankaracarya, after showing the true path, did not reveal anything more about
the secrets of Vaisnava religion.
Because those who are actually sincere about worshiping the Lord, then by coming in
contact with those who are bona fide, then they could continue. So he has established the
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point. In other words, worship of the Lord according to the Vedic literature is then
established by him, but what is the goal that he doesn’t talk about. That’s why it’s important
in knowing the philosophy is the fifth point, what is the relationship of the living entity
with Godhead after liberation, or after attaining whatever is your position. So otherwise up
to there so many of the elements are common. But coming to that point then he doesn’t
speak about it. So his followers conclude that it’s separate, or let’s say, the impersonal level is
there is no relationship. But he doesn’t actually say that. He is quiet about it. So they come
to that conclusion. That’s why he has he tricked them.
“Those who carefully study all his commentaries can see that this was Sankaracarya’s
hidden intention. It is only those who waste time merely circle the outskirts of
Sankaracarya’s teachings who stay far away from the Vaisnava religion.
“Being one with the Supreme Lord and attaining love for Him are, in one sense, the
same thing. However, they who narrowly define oneness with the Lord claim, that it is
different from love for the Lord.
But if everything is one, why would it be different? That’s the thing, in their oneness
they define everything else as different. But if it’s all one, what does it matter? Your toaster
is also God, it’s also Brahman, so you and your toaster are one. So you could meditate on the
oneness with your toaster. There the question would be: is there any benefits on meditating
on a toaster that only does two slices, or is it better that does four slices, or is it like the
ultimate one that does eight slices? So in that way then the more intellectual classes of
persons would actually be at a disadvantage compared to the more rural family oriented
groups who have larger toasters, because they have more kids.
So being one with the Supreme Lord, because you have visistadvaita, visuddhadvaita, so
they are emphasizing on the oneness. And then dvaitadvaita then there is the advaita, the
element of oneness, but it’s how they define it. So advaita then it’s too narrow its definition.
It doesn’t actually accommodate all the different elements that are there. But acintya-
bhedabheda-tattva then that gives the best definition of it, the most broad, that all other
definitions can be found within acintya-bhedabheda-tattva.
“Consider, for a moment, the meaning of the word ‘love’. The thing that attracts one
spiritual entity to another spiritual entity is called ‘love’. If the two spiritual entities are not
in truth different from each other, they cannot have love for each other.
“All spiritual entities are naturally attracted to the supreme spiritual entity, Lord
Krsnacandra. That attraction is called krsna-prema, or love for Lord Krsna.
“Lord Krsnacandra and the individual spirit souls are eternally distinct spiritual entities.
Therefore the love they bear for each other is an eternal fact.
Because there has to be two to be love. If there is only one, then you can experience
ananda, but not love. So that would be the difference. So brahmananda can only be ananda.
But if you are talking about relationship, then it can actually be love. So love is beyond
ananda.
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Devotee (1): This acintya-bhedabheda-tattva is only kind of experienced when you love
Krsna you can feel that oneness and difference. It’s kind of expressing that state of love for
Krsna also.
Maharaja: Means all of those, visistadvaita, visuddhadvaita, they are all describing that
platform. But it’s just it’s more clear, it’s more straight-forward. So that’s more comfortable
generally for the soul. Especially when you are dealing a lot with varnasrama, and dharma,
duty, these good qualities, maryada, religiousness, then you like everything very straight-
forward, not too much contradiction. So then the practice is also very straight-forward.
That expression of love is very straight-forward. But these very fine points where you are
getting into all the nuances of the masculine and feminine relationship, those won’t be
experienced in that. It’s a very formal sense.
In other words, husband and wife in a formal situation, like in public, then the
relationship is very straight-forward, it’s not contradictory if it’s in a natural state. But when
it’s in its state where it’s not in a formal position, when it’s in an informal, then all the
contradictions come out, and they are experienced at that time. So it’s much deeper
understanding of it. It’s not some mystical beyond, it’s like you can explain, these are what
goes on.
Devotee (1): …deep experience of prema that acintya-bhedabheda.
Maharaja: Yes, it would be your deepest explanation. Because it’s also dealing with pure
unalloyed, there is nothing else. Because all these other forms of pure devotion generally
speaking are mixed with some aspect of liberation. There is some need on one’s part that
one wants fulfilled. While here it’s simply you want to please Krsna.
“Three things exist eternally: 1. the enjoyer, 2. the enjoyed, 3. the way enjoyment is
obtained.
Enjoyer, enjoyed, and how the enjoyment is obtained, because that means you have to
be able to bring the enjoyer and the enjoyed together. So enjoyer is your masculine
principle, the enjoyed is the feminine principle, and the way enjoyment is obtained is how
to bring those two together. So in other words, you are getting sambandha as the enjoyer,
prayojana as the enjoyed, and the way enjoyment is obtained is abhideya.
If the person who enjoys by loving another is identical with the object of his enjoyment
or love, then the love he feels can never be eternal.
Means some very self-centered persons looking in the mirror may not agree with this.
But at some point they have to walk away from the mirror. But at the same time, what it is,
they are impressed by their reflection technically, so in that way subtly it’s become two.
Devotee (1): There is a mirror…
Maharaja: That’s true. No one ever says, wow, great mirror.
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“If oneness is defined as the spiritual living entity’s pure state, where he is free from any
contact with matter, then oneness and spiritual love are identical.
Because being freed from matter, then one has to be established in a state of, yes,
because we have the Lord and the relationship with Him. So that means being freed from
material matter and being engaged in loving service have to be the same.
So that means this element something in between actually can’t be a position that one
can function from, because there is only three concepts of the soul’s nature, the eternal, the
temporary, and that which contradicts the eternal nature. So eternal nature is spiritual
love… strive to attain direct service to Lord. Material means you just engage material energy.
And the third one is you ignore both. So there is no option for there to be another
definition of the soul’s position. Because if his being in his pure state and being freed from
material matter then is saying, then that’s the natural position of oneness and spiritual love
are the same. So there isn’t a state of existence in which it would function on its own.
Because if we are saying you fall from that position, means you would have to define that
there is a position where the soul is transcendentally situated and is not ignoring God, at the
same time, he is not involved with.
And then you would have to define where would that be in the cosmic creation on its
own, where is that place? We have never heard of such a place. In all descriptions from all
sastras we never hear of such a place being described. There is always the spiritual world
being described and the material world being described. And the brahmajyoti itself can’t be
the place of situation, because in that situation there is no contact with the Supreme Lord,
so there is no option for love, so you can’t choose love from brahmajyoti.
This is important to note just in here, brahmajyoti and Brahman are both synonymous
and not. In other words, Brahman is the bigger word, brahmajyoti is the smaller.
Brahmajyoti simply means that aspect of Brahman which is the Lord’s effulgence. But
Brahman describes everything in the cosmic creation. Brahman describes the Supreme Lord,
describes His internal potency, describes the jiva, and describes the material energy.
Devotee (1): Absolute Truth.
Maharaja: Yes, Absolute Truth. So the Absolute Truth is all these things, the Lord, His
internal potency, external potency, and the marginal potency. That’s Brahman. Brahmajyoti
simply happens to be the effulgence of that Supreme Person. So generally those who discuss
these points of the origin of the soul don’t understand the difference between brahmajyoti
and Brahman. You can call brahmajyoti Brahman. So those who only know brahmajyoti
then they speak like that. But technically Brahman means everything.
So that’s why there is a difference between a Mayavadi and an impersonalist, a
Brahmavadi. A Brahmavadi, everything is Brahman, so the material world is also Brahman.
So there is no problem in it. It’s not that it is illusion. It’s illusion that it’s not Brahman. But
the Mayavadi, it’s all maya, it doesn’t even exist, it’s not even here, so actually it’s Buddhism.
Actual Mayavada philosophy is just Buddhism, just it’s been brought into that they accept
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the Vedas, they accept the culture of the Vedas, the authority of the Vedas, the processes of
the Vedas, but otherwise the philosophy is exactly the same. It’s not a different philosophy.
“However, the present day pandita followers of Sankaracarya are not content to accept
such a definition. Instead they undertake a great struggle to prove that the Vedas teach the
existence of ultimately only one spiritual entity, an entity that transforms Himself into
everything that exists. Such a view kills the eternal existence of love.
Because you can’t love yourself, so then all this love that’s going on here where would
that come from? That’s the problem, where would all these things come from? Where would
all the variety and the emotions and everything come from if the Supreme has no qualities?
It’s quite a contradictory.
The Vaisnavas have conclusively proved that this view contradicts the true teachings of
the Vedas.
“Sankaracarya affirmed that the pure spiritual state is one of perfect oneness. However,
his present-day followers do not understand the hidden meaning of his words. Thus they
gradually ascribed to him a position not truly his own. They declared the various stages of
pure spiritual love to be products of the illusory potency maya. It is for this reason that their
theory is called mayavada. It is the lowest and most horrible of all theories in the world.
At least they made it to the, I guess if you turn everything upside down they made it to
the top of the charts. So I guess they get a hundred on rotten tomatoes.
“The mayavada philosophers refuse to accept the existence of more than one spiritual
entity. They refuse to accept the existence of spiritual love. They say that the supreme spirit
(brahman) stays aloof from matter only as long as He remains one and undivided.
Because then they’ll say then he comes under his control by himself, so that means maya
is more powerful actually than Brahman. Then they’ll say, oh, it’s your pastime. So this they
are idiots, but whatever.
But you can see here the thread of it it’s non-different from these other monotheistic
religions, or other religions, where it’s actually then the living entity actually comes from
matter. Because in this case maya would be your definition of matter, so therefore the
concept of the soul, life of the soul, consciousness of the soul, has all come from matter, or
from maya. So in that way they are not any different than any other material philosophy. It
takes it like that. Because those who are only interested in matter, of course, that’s all there
is, and you deal nicely so you get the pleasure of matter, and if you don’t then you don’t, and
it doesn’t work out nicely for you. But those who are actually the jnanis they don’t actually
separate themselves that much from this karma philosophy, just the desire from results
within the material energy are not what’s sought after, but the process they keep basically
the same, being nice and being good, doing good works. But still the soul and its
consciousness and a life and everything still comes from the material energy, it still comes
from maya. It’s still very similar.
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You can see so the mundane philosophies, which Mayavada philosophy is, doesn’t
actually, all these mundane philosophies are basically only talking the same thing. Just a
little emphasis this way or that way or how they want to define their element of supreme,
but it all stays within the same theory, it doesn’t actually get out of it. So only Vaisnavism is
actually dealing with actual truth. That will define things very properly.
They say that when He assumes any form of His own or the forms of the many
individual souls He is in the grip of illusion (maya). Thus they think that the eternal, pure
and spiritual form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is a manifestation of the illusory
potency maya. They think the separate existence of the individual spirit souls to be an
illusion created by maya. Therefore they are mayavadis.
So Sankaracarya isn’t technically Mayavada, he is actually professing personalism, but
he does it in a very hidden way. But their conclusion is Mayavada. (end of lecture) (end)
January 12, 2010

Maharaja: Thinking that spiritual love and its manifestations are all products of the illusory
potency maya, they affirm that meditation on the oneness of everything is the only thing
beyond maya’s touch. Thus these bewildered fellows’ idea of oneness is not at all the same as
spiritual love.
“However, the spiritual love Lord Caitanya tasted in His pastimes and taught to the
world is completely beyond the touch of the illusory potency maya. That love is the highest
fruit of pure spiritual oneness.
Mahabhava is a specific transformation of that pure spiritual love. It is a very intense
form of the bliss of pure love for Lord Krsna. In it the confidential relationship between the
lover and the beloved reaches an intensity never known before. On the other hand, the
mayavada philosophy is shallow and unimportant. It can never understand that exalted
love.”
Because if that oneness is supposed to be happiness it still has to be based on the
existence of two. There still has to be the lover and the beloved, then that oneness in that
mood and in that sharing of that mood that can be so intense that comes to this point of the
mahabhava, where that intensity that oneness that’s there is something way beyond this
oneness that they talk about. Because when here they talk about oneness means they are
thinking about themselves and the one, of being one. But they miss out on actual
interaction. Because why would they just think about Brahman and they are not involved?
Because if they think I am that, then the thing is why do I have to meditate on that if I
already am that? So then they are thinking it will be me because it will be me, but the point
is every other living entity is that. So in their individual state they are trying to think of this
greater. But they are not catching that it only has meaning to them actually and inspiration
because actually they are dealing with two, and trying to bring two together as one. But that
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one should be love, but it’s not. So therefore it doesn’t actually work very well. It doesn’t
become very inspiring.
Devotee (1): They cannot experience the oneness if they… You maintain your
identity…you can experience oneness. If you lose it you can’t experience anything.
Maharaja: No, that’s the thing they don’t understand, if they disappear they don’t exist any
more how do you know you are happy? You have to be an individual to experience that you
are happy. And your experience is one is in connection with another. Just as their pain has
come that way, therefore their happiness will come that way. Because they are talking about
the spiritual ananda as opposed to the material misery, but those are the two opposite ends.
But if you get rid of individuality there will be no misery, but then there’ll be no happiness
either. And the Buddhists then they say just everything disappears, because they are upset
with both theories.
Devotee (1): Frustrated.
Maharaja: Yes, frustrated with material, frustrated with the spiritual. So their idea is get rid
of everything. But then why would just getting rid of everything and not experiencing
anything be beneficial? How will you appreciate your state if you don’t have one? So it’s a
problem.
It’s like the drop of water merges in the ocean, it never becomes a whole ocean. You can
still take out drops of water. So their logic is faulty, because they think the one is happy, so I
become part of that, I’ll become that. But the thing is, that is already existing there even
while you are in maya. So how is it that you think that now when you go in you are the one
that is going to experience the whole thing? Because you are still taking it that your identity
is going to be experiencing. Just your identity becomes the whole. But the point is it’s
already being experienced if it’s real.
Devotee (1): There was one…by one esoteric impersonalist in Iceland. He said a drop in the
ocean is a…
Maharaja: It doesn’t make any more sense than the other one. Because they always give
example, the green bird in the green tree they become one, but the thing is you can still see
the green bird in the green tree. They don’t do so well in their examples.
Then the saintly sannyasi respectfully said, “O master, my heart is filled with conviction
that the mayavada theory is shallow and unimportant. Any doubt I had about that is now
thrown far away by your mercy. Still, I myself wear the garments of a mayavadi sannyasi.
Now I yearn to rid myself of them.”
The saintly babaji replied, “O great soul, I do not teach that one should like or hate any
particular kind of garments. When one’s heart is purified, his garments will also become
pure. When a person gives great respect to his outward garments, it shows that he does not
give great attention to the condition of his heart.
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“In my opinion one should first purify his heart. Then he may adopt the external
activities and garments of a saintly person without committing an offense.
“In your heart become a sincere follower of Sri Krsna Caitanya. Then you will naturally
desire to accept the external things that are appropriate for that following. Let that be the
way you act. Always remember these words of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu (Sri Caitanya-
caritamrta, Madhya 16.238-239):
“You should not make yourself a show bottle devotee and become a false renunciant. For
the time being enjoy the material world in a befitting way and not become attached to it.
So in other words, he is pointing out that it’s not the dress that makes the man. Of
course, I am not sure if Rainman’s…would agree with that. But the point is the external is a
manifestation of the internal. Now he is noticing this but he is still taking it, ok, well, the
dress is what makes me a Mayavadi, now if I change the dress that will make me a Gaudiya.
But Babaji Maharaja is saying it’s nothing to do with the dress. The dress follows the inside,
it’s not that the dress makes the person. Before he was attentive to that, that was his dress,
because he is a sannyasi this and that, but then it comes to the point where he understands
it’s not his thing, it’s not. But he is still looking at it from the outside. So his point is, don’t
move faster than you need to. The point is, this is what you have, this is what you are
wearing. You wear that until naturally the mentality changes that it will there, so don’t have
to, it will just happen. Because the point is, in any case renunciate uses any kind of clothes
whatever he finds. So if this is what he has now this is what he’d use. When it wears out
then he can consider what he is going to use, even just practically looking at it. But in any
case, what’s the problem wearing this? This is what he found.
It’s just like those who are very strict about how they look as a babaji, how long it should
be, what kind of cloth this and that, they are going to be worried about it. But we see Gaura
Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja whatever he’d find that’s what he’d wear.
So now Lord Caitanya is saying, don’t make a show, don’t externally do one thing and
then is not. You are in the position, at least in here this is to why he is saying this, this is to
Raghunatha dasa when he understands material world is useless. So He says, you go on doing
what you are doing, means enjoy the material world in a befitting way and not become attached
to it, because you are connecting it. So what is your position, do the duties that are
connected there properly, but don’t become attached to that, naturally with time it will
move on.
Like we see, Raghunatha dasa is a very good example of showing the stages of
detachment. So he is just absorbed in all these things, that’s what he does. Then he is not
absorbed in these things but he is performing the proper duties. Then he leaves that and
then he goes and then because he is from a wealthy family he is in a renounced position but
he has facility and all that and he uses it for the Vaisnavas. Then he finds that he stops
keeping that facility and then he is just whatever Krsna sends that’s what he is living by. So
he is going through all these stages. So this is a natural manifestation.
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“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued: Within your heart you should keep yourself very
faithful, but externally you may behave like an ordinary man. Thus Krsna will soon be very
pleased and deliver you from the clutches of maya.”
Understanding, the saintly sannyasi did not say anything more about changing his
garments. Folding his hands, he said, “O master, I am your disciple and I have taken shelter
at your lotus feet. Whatever instruction you give, I will place on my head without argument.
By hearing your words I have understood that pure love for Lord Krsna is the only Vaisnava
religion. That love is the eternal religion of the soul. That religion is perfect, pure and
natural. How should I regard the other religions in the various countries of the world?”
So that pure love for Krsna that’s the real nature, that’s the real religion of the living
entity. Everything else is in support of that, how to express that love, the environments to
express it in. So that is what everything else is actually doing. Means a devotee of the Lord
who has love for Krsna would always be absorbed in Krsna, therefore he would always be
chanting His name.
So therefore we want to beyond that platform, so as we are not we take up that process
of chanting a fixed number of rounds so at least that much of the day we are absorbed in
chanting Krsna’s name like those, who do have love for Krsna, do. So that it won’t be
whimsical, one day I am very enthusiastic and I chant so much, and on other days I don’t
chant anything at all, there is a fixed regular amount, so that the regular amount of the
association with that aspect of the eternal religion is there. So all these things are there for
that purpose. Because of the bodily identification then it’s brought in line with that love for
Krsna by doing specific duties. Because otherwise you can’t do all duties. And you’ll pick and
choose what duties you want to do when. So that makes it everybody will be insecure. So
people will be secure so that then they know this is my duty, then you can say, now engage
this duty in Krsna’s service.
Means the residents of the spiritual world they engage their duties in Krsna’s service.
Means Nanda Baba and mother Yasoda they are householders, they engage that in Krsna’s
service. The cowherd boys they have the duties taking out the cows, they engage that in
Krsna’s service. So all this connection is there, all these different activities are there. So
they are all in support of this one thing, because this is actually sanatana-dharma. Therefore
we can say, sanatana-dharma, varnasrama-dharma, brahminical culture, they are all one
thing, because this is actually what it’s meant for. It’s not like there is something else.
Sometimes we look at it, oh, there is various options. But these various options aren’t
actually there. All they are is different forms of illusion. So the only real religion is love for
God. There isn’t anything else. And then here is the natural form of what they follow in the
spiritual world. You can try some other thing, trying to put together what you have around
here. But why do that when it’s also available to do like they do in the spiritual world?
Devotee (1): Prabhupada made this point in one class that the process is like jump-starting a
car. Instead a car’s natural, it’s like you push the car to move then it will run on its own
energy. So we become practiced that you act like we love Krsna, but then somehow that…
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Maharaja: It will start.
Devotee (1): …we continue doing that.
Maharaja: If you are already doing the activity and you like doing it, you will be inspired to
do it on your own. So that will be the difference between the vaidhi and the raganuga.
Vaidhi you are doing because this is what should be done, and raganuga means you are doing
exactly the same thing because you like to do it. That’s actually the meaning of raganuga.
Someone will say, oh no, raganuga simply means sitting around and reading books about
the gopis, but that’s not exactly, because mother Yasoda is raganuga, the cows are raga, it’s
like Vraja is raganuga. So raga means that attachment. You have that attachment for Krsna
so therefore you are simply absorbed in that way, as the residents of Vrndavana are
spontaneous in that you are following in their footsteps. So this raga-anuga. They are
following their footsteps of those with raga. The gopis have raga, mother Yasoda has raga,
the cowherd boys they have raga, so we are following that. So that spontaneity is what
makes it.
You go to mangala-aratika because you are supposed to go. You go to mangala-aratika
because you like to go, or want to go, or need to go. So that’s the elements of raga. So it’s
there. Of course, because you have to start somewhere then generally most people start with
prasada, there is that great natural spontaneous attachment to prasada and so it’s very
uplifting. Of course, the natural food freaks kind of miss out on this important devotional
aspect, but hopefully they make up in their chanting and other things, but if they don’t
then.
Devotee (2): Macrobiotics.
Maharaja: Yes, macrobiotics even more, all these kind of things. Because of their so-called
uplifting diet they are unable to appreciate the transcendental nature of prasada. And it’s
one area where generally there is natural spontaneity. So since it’s you are spontaneous
about Krsna, one moves forward.
The saintly babaji replied, “O great soul, religion is one. It is not two, and it is not many.
There is only one religion for the soul. That religion is called the Vaisnava religion. There is
no reason why religion should be different for different languages, countries and peoples.
The religion of the soul may be called by different names, but it is not possible that there
can be different religions.
It’s just like the sun can be called by different names, but it can’t be that there is many
suns.
The religion of the soul is the pure love the atomic spiritual entity bears for the supreme
spiritual entity. Because of differing material conceptions, some spirit souls have distorted
that original religion and given it a variety of different shapes. The pure and original form
of the soul’s religion is the Vaisnava religion. Other so-called religions are merely distorted
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forms of the Vaisnava religion. Other religions are pure to the degree that they are like the
Vaisnava religion.
So same, means whatever is actually in line with the Vaisnava religion that’s where its
strength and its purity will be, and where it’s not it won’t be. The same with the Veda and
knowledge, whatever knowledge is in line with the Vedic thought then has that degree of
actual knowledge to it, and wherever it’s not it doesn’t actually have any meaning. So what
he is pointing out, there is only pure love for God and then those activities that are
connected with it, that knowledge that is connected with it. People will say, by their
mundane mentality will change it, he said distort it, and make it into other things. So they
think they are creating something, all they do is distorting the reality. They are not creating
something new. And then people who are absorbed in the distortion they think, well, there
is this religion, there is that religion. No, there is only religion, how to develop love for God.
So that’s the essential point. So the external form isn’t as important. So if you can get love
of God by whatever form you are using, great. But if it doesn’t work, since love of God is
what you are trying to get then you should take up those aspects that do help you get it.
“Some days ago, in Sri Vraja-dhama, I placed this same question before the feet of Srila
Sanatana Goswami, who is a personal associate of Lord Caitanya. “In the religion of the
Yavanas there is a word ‘esk’. Does this word mean pure spiritual love, or does it not.” That
was my question. The saintly Goswami is learned in all scriptures, and he is especially
learned in the language of the Yavanas. In that language his learning has no limit. Srila
Rupa Goswami, Srila Jiva Goswami, and many other learned scholars were also present in
that assembly. Saintly Srila Sanatana Goswami kindly replied in these words:
“Yes, the word ‘esk’ means love. When the Yavanas worship God they use the word ‘esk’.
However ‘esk’ is often used to mean material love also. Examples of this may be seen in the
history of Layala Manjanu and the writings of Hafiz. The Yavana acaryas could not
understand the true meaning of spiritual life. When they write of ‘esk’ they mean love in
terms of either the gross or subtle material bodies. However, they could not distinguish
between material love and pure spiritual love, and they could not understand pure love for
Lord Krsna. I have not seen an accurate description of spiritual love in any of the books of
the Yavana teachers. I have seen them only in the books describing the Vaisnava religion.
The Yavana teachers use the word ‘ru’ to describe the pure individual soul. However they
could not understand the soul in truth. They used the word ‘ru’ to describe the conditioned
souls bound by maya. That was all they could understand. I have not seen a description of
pure love for Lord Krsna in any but the Vaisnava religion. Generally speaking, pure love for
Lord Krsna is described only in the books of Vaisnava religion. Pure love for Lord Krsna is
described in these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.1.2):
“Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this
Bhagavata Purana propounds the highest truth...”
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“I am confident that before Sri Krsna Caitanya came to this world, no one had given a
complete description of pure love for Lord Krsna. If you have faith in my words, then you
may accept this conclusion.”
“After hearing these instructions, again and again I offered dandavat obeisances to Srila
Sanatana Goswami.”
In other words, they have the word, like in Christianity they have the word Godhead,
which means that Lord who is the Lord of all others, means in other words, the original
source of any and everyone. So that’s why we use the term Godhead, because that’s what it
means. But they will have no actual proper definition of God. So in the same way, the
Yavanas they have the word love and it technically means spiritual love, but they actually
can’t define it. Or they have the term for the individual spirit soul, is ru, but they can’t
actually define it other than the material conditioning. So they don’t fully know the nature
of the soul or the nature of God though they have words for it, but they don’t actually
understand. So like that then he says, he has read so many things and then he has never
come across anything. Not very developed, that’s the difficulty.
At that time the saintly sannyasi offered dandavat obeisances.
Then the paramahamsa babaji said, “O great devotee, now I will answer your second
question: Please listen with an attentive mind. The words ‘the creation of the individual
soul’ or ‘the fashioning of the individual soul’ are all manifested by the illusory potency
maya. They are material words that describe inanimate material things. The three divisions
of time are: 1. past, 2. present and 3. future. These divisions refer to material time, time
within the realm of the illusory potency maya. In the spiritual world the present exists
eternally. In the spiritual world the past and future do not exist. Lord Krsna and the
individual spirit soul exist in that eternal present. In this way the individual soul is eternal
and his original nature, which is his pure love for Lord Krsna, is also eternal. Talk of the
individual soul’s being ‘created’ or ‘fashioned’ is a misconception, mistakenly imposing the
time patterns of the inanimate material world on a spiritual entity.
This is an important thing, because he is saying, the question here then is actually being
asked from the material platform, because you are looking when does he come into
existence. But Krsna in the Gita says, there was never a time when He did not exist, Arjuna
did not exist, or anybody else in the battlefield. They have always existed. That’s the thing.
Because there is always present, so that means there is no future that one will exist, or there
is a past or you existed then but not now. So there is only present. So that’s the nature of
the living entity, he is always present.
The atomic individual soul is spiritual and eternal. He existed before his entrance into
the material world. Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists
there exists in an eternal present. Therefore the soul and its nature are both eternal. They
exist in that eternal present. I am only describing this in words. Your understanding will
depend on your ability to understand the pure spiritual world.
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That’s the difficulty with this kind of question where you are trying to take eternal and
eternally present and somehow or another transform it into past and future, that becomes a
difficulty, because the two don’t match, it just doesn’t work that way. It’s like trying to
define the taste that you are getting by its temperature. They are two different ways of
measuring something. So one is mundane, past, present, and future, and spiritual is only
present. So the two don’t really match. So therefore he is saying,
I can only give a hint here. In spiritual trance you will be able to see all this directly. The
logic and argument of this material world will not help you to understand it. Your ability to
directly perceive the spiritual world beyond the realm of matter will depend on how much
you can loosen the shackles of material bondage.
So here even like we teach all these technicalities of the philosophy, we teach the points
of logic and argument, or whatever it is what we teach in these ways, all these things can
simply be useful if you actually understand what is the subject matter, because the subject
matter is not logic and argument or all these different rules and regulations. The subject
matter is the nature of the soul, nature of God, and their relationship, that’s the subject
matter. So if one can understand that, then these others act as nice tools and how you can
express it and help others understand. But understanding them themselves won’t make you
understand. That’s the mistake of these other theories.
Nyaya thinks that if you are logical in everything that you deal with then you will attain
perfection. Vaisesika, if you can see the nature of everything in its original atomic form
then you’ll attain perfection. Sankhya is thinking if you can create the proper balance
between the masculine and feminine principle, then everything will be perfect. Yoga is, if
you can just absorb yourself in pure meditation, then you’ll become perfect. Then Karma-
mimamsa, if you just perform your activities exactly perfect, following all the rules, then
everything will become perfect.
Or if you have proper knowledge of yourself, understand that nothing here is actually
real, but unfortunately that means all their philosophy, all the words that they are using to
discuss it, their mind and intelligence they are using there, that’s also illusory. So if it’s all
illusion, how is it that it’s going to help you get out? How is it the illusion covers Brahman
and brings it into illusion, but at the same time, that same illusion is going to get you out?
All these things they miss the point. They all miss the point. It’s actually your
understanding of to be able to understand the pure spiritual nature, that’s what we are
trying to understand. All these other things can be helpful.
Devotee (1): …
Maharaja: They are all, they all are up there.
Devotee (1): …mental, intellectual…
Maharaja: It is, so that’s why Prabhupada calls them mental speculators, it never actually
gets off that platform. At least the Karma-mimamsakas you get at least you see something.
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At least you get a lunch out of it or something, but other than that. But the other it’s all in
the mind using the intelligence. But they are speculating within the mind. So that’s the
difficulty.
And so these are the most highly developed and refined of the mundane philosophies,
everything else is basically coming in line with these, little bits and pieces of these, and some
combination. These are pure in themselves, it’s just one thought pattern, or one it’s a
progression of the next. But your modern is always a mix of everything, it’s never really a
pure line. It’s just it will be emphasized more karma or more jnana, but they are still going to
be saying the same thing. It’s always a bit of a kichari.
Devotee (1): I was seeing this guy looking at everything and trying to adjust everything, his
head went close to see it, it looks like a very…process.
Maharaja: You have to be very smart to do these things, because you see not that many
people are involved in it. How many Nyayist have you ever bumped into, or Vaisesikas, or
Sankhyates? How many Yogis where actually they are into meditation? You don’t bump into
them, because they are not around here. The ones that are doing asanas and all that that
you bump into. Karma-mimamsakas you can find smarta-brahmanas. But they are all smart
people. You bump into an occasional Mayavadi. I mean everybody is a Mayavadi, but I am
saying the ones that actually know the philosophy. They are very smart. I think the last
main Sankaracarya in Kanchi, which you could say would be at least up to him they would
most studied, he knew 20 languages. So he could preach in Chinese if he wanted. That was
the thing, if you are supposed to be the acarya for the world, jagad-guru, then you should
know all the major languages of the world, and so that’s what they did. Nowadays then one
that took over after him, he is just into welfare work and other stuff like that. So it’s
dropped back to karma again. Better he is like that, makes less trouble for us.
Devotee (1): …complex process.
Maharaja: It means you would have to be very pious and every focused to be able to work on
that platform always. But it doesn’t mean that it’s any beneficial. And if you can take such a
person and give them the pure Vaisnava philosophy, then they would be benefited, because
then they could contemplate it very nicely and practice. But the problem is if they are so
attached to their previous mentality, then that would be that much slow, if they are
attached to whatever their speculative process or whatever form of external processes.
The point is you offer things to Krsna that He likes, but somebody was a vegan before or
something, so they can’t tolerate that Krsna is eating sugar and so many other things, dairy
products, like go-brähmaëa-hitäya ca, it didn’t say carrot-brähmaëa-hitäya ca. Then that
becomes a difficulty, and they actually then feed Krsna vegan food. It’s one thing as a start
but not as a standard. And so then they have missed the whole point. It’s all about Krsna.
But they are going on as if the material world is actually a nice place, a fair place that is
actually good.
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Because if you are not supposed, it’s just like this, let’s take an extreme example. If the
cow itself, the cow is not like part of the modern cooperate machinery. So the cow couldn’t
care less who is in charge, and so the cow is just being a cow. So because the cow isn’t dealt
with properly, therefore then they won’t offer the cow’s milk or any product from the cow to
Krsna, because they feel that you would be supporting all these big multi-national, or
whatever it is this whole cooperate industry based around the cow that is not protecting. So
they feel that they are protecting the cow more by boycotting it and then just the cow
instead, because no one wants to milk, so they just send her straight to the slaughter,
somehow or another that’s more protection of the cow.
But they miss the point, the cow is giving milk just as a cow, it’s not that cow has that
mentality. So then that means that cow’s milk is not offered to Krsna, so it gets no benefit.
If the cow’s milk is offered to Krsna, it gets benefit. So the vegans are completely determined
that no cow should get any spiritual benefit. Then if we want to be consistent in this, why
just cows? So that means anybody who is in that kind of tortured and situation like that
should be avoided, because then you are boycotting the system. Therefore all vegans should
stay away, the boys should stay away from the girls, the girls away from the boys, they should
have no interaction with them, because they are all tortured by the same system. So
therefore they should boycott all this boy-girl association. That would be consistent with
their philosophy.
The same way with the computer, how is the computer made? But they have their web
pages, they are on facebook. But how that computer is made? It’s also you are raping the
earth, so they should boycott that. So a real vegan would just go out and live in the forest.
And how knows how the cloth industry works either. The poor Chinese or the Indonesian
laborers who made your Gucci bag, all these things. So everything should be boycotted. So
the thing is they just pick and choose, that’s it. So it’s inconsistent.
So the point is if it’s connected to Krsna, then it’s useful. If it’s not connected to Krsna,
no matter how nice it is, it’s still useless. That’s it. It’s still useless.
Devotee (3): So this example of the vegans, they would be ganapatyas or the sauryas?
Maharaja: They would be ganapatyas because they are only worried about a certain group. If
they are worred about all life or, generally your sauryas it’s more generally, just everybody
you try to be nice to everybody, appreciate everybody, anything that’s alive you try to, you
are nice to people, you are nice to animals, you are nice to plants. So you appreciate life.
Going out in the morning and smelling the fresh air and God’s creation, all that kind of
stuff. But ganapatyas it will be a certain group that they will be supportive of or not. It’s
interesting, the variety of ganapatyas.
The logic and argument of this material world will not help you to understand it.
That’s why the presentation has to be connected to Krsna. Otherwise logic and
argument won’t help. If it’s logical and it’s connected to Krsna, it will help.
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Your ability to directly perceive the spiritual world beyond the realm of matter will
depend on how much you can loosen the shackles of material bondage. In the beginning you
will see your own pure spiritual form. By again and again chanting the spiritual and holy
names of Lord Hari, you will come to understand the nature of the soul. By practicing
astanga-yoga or following the path of the impersonalists you will not be able to see the pure
spiritual nature. By directly serving Lord Krsna you will be able to understand the eternal
nature of the soul. Therefore you should chant the holy names of Lord Hari always and with
enthusiasm. Only by chanting the names of Lord Hari will you make advancement in
spiritual life. Again and again chanting the holy name of Lord Hari for some days, you will
eventually attain love for the holy name, a kind of love you had never known before.
Accompanying that love will be direct perception of the spiritual world. Of all the different
activities of devotional service, chanting the holy names of Lord Hari is the most important
and the most quickly effective. In Krsnadasa Kaviraja’s delightful books (Sri Caitanya-
caritamrta, Antya 4.70-71) Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches:
“Among the ways of executing devotional service, the nine prescribed methods are the
best, for these processes have great potency to deliver Krsna and ecstatic love for Him.”
“Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the
holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily
obtains the most valuable love of Godhead.”
So that just very clear is Vaisnava religion is the very clear straight-forward religion.
Everything, there is only that. There isn’t something else. So anything else other than that,
that you think is something separate, that’s illusion. So it’s either it’s in line with that
therefore that gives it its potency or strength or purity, or it’s not in line with that and
that’s what’s going to cause it’s not working. So everything in the world no matter what it is
on what platform, socially, economically, sensually, anything, to that degree it’s in
connection with the Lord that is the degree of its value, and to that degree it’s not in
connection with the Lord that’s going to be its degree of causing trouble. That’s all there is,
it’s that simple.
So from there then all these things will fall into place. Because if you are looking at it
from, oh, there is so many varieties, you are looking at it from the bottom. But here is being
you can look at it from the top. You situate yourself on the spiritual understanding and then
from there you view the material variety that’s been created. But if you are trying to see the
spiritual through the material variety, it won’t be seen, because it’s not the proper meaning,
because it’s a distortion. It’s a distortion of the original position.
So this is what is trying to be established here. Once this is established then you can
look at it very nicely all the details. So that I know of we spend a few chapters establishing
this kind of thing. There is ten chapters just on dealing with the various aspects of the
material world. Temporary natures, the nature of the soul, the soul’s material duties, then
the Vaisnava religion, then vaidhi-bhakti, then you are dealing with the caste system, then
household life, ordinary activities, modern science and civilization, and history. So once all
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those have been dealt with then you can get straight into just the technicalities of
devotional service. So all that background is given.
So here modern science and civilization, because we always have to remember, modern
always exists. No one is saying anything different now. In fact, probably the people 100 years
ago, or 150 years ago, their modern was much more developed and articulate than today’s
modern, what they could define was much more exact.
They would sit around and discuss, the common man, that’s what someone was telling
me once, it was a surprise, I forgot where it was, some devotee was saying they were in
somebody’s house and the person was a very common kind of person, like a plumber, just
some very ordinary occupation. But the kind of books, huge library and the kind of books he
had, all these different philosophies and histories, all these things that nowadays you take
that as some university course these things. But that was what the common person read
before, that was common. Now he watches HBO. But before he would read books. And this
is what they’d read. So they read all the classics. They didn’t understand much. That’s what
made them general. But the thing was, they would read all these things.
So this concept of modern has always been there. So if you can define modern on such a
developed state, then defining modern on a very ordinary state is quite easy. So in other
words, Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s definition of modern will sum up more clearly what’s going
on today than trying to sum up what’s going on today. People don’t have the focus to be able
to sum up what’s going on today. You have to be intelligent to be able to do that. (end of
lecture)
Devotee (4): Was this book written in English, Maharaja?

Maharaja: Was this book? This book was written in English by Satsvarupa Maharaja. He was
a good scholar in English and so he wrote this very nicely. Is this book written in English?
Let us open it up and look. It appears to be in English. Oh, was it originally written in
English? I think it’s not, because it has a translator, because here the translator…translated
by Kusa-kratha.
Devotee (4): But it’s not in verses, it’s narrated.
Maharaja: Because he would have written it in prose.
Devotee (4): It wasn’t written in verse.
Maharaja: It was written in prose, it wouldn’t be written in verses. Other books, like
philosophical books sometimes he’d do that. But this is a novel. So this one and Prema-
pradipa they were written in prose.
Devotee (4): Prose means it’s not like Bhagavad-gita style.
Maharaja: No, it’s just written like this.
Devotee (1): Bengali, no?
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Maharaja: Yes, I would expect it’s Bengali. Because why would he write a book like this in
Sanskrit?
Devotee (1): Now, I know, because Sarva-bhavana was translating it.
Maharaja: Yes, many, but Kusa-kratha’s will be understandable, just sometimes he’ll use the
same word over and over again, that’s the only thing. It will be sweet, it will be poetic, but
he won’t have as much variety in his usage of words, like Gopiparanadhana he’ll use much
more variety in the words. But otherwise as far as the content then it will be very clear.
Devotee (4): Is he also a Prabhupada disciple, Kusa-kratha?
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (5): He passed away.
Maharaja: Yes, I think he passed away a couple of years ago in Vrndavana. He was living in
Vrndavana for a long time. And he has like translated 100, 200 books or something. He has
translated more than anybody in volume.
Devotee (4): How come he didn’t do it by the BBT?
Maharaja: I am not sure, it maybe BBT wasn’t at that time dealing with those kind of books
or stuff, I am not sure. Or he didn’t want it.
Devotee (1): I heard something that he…all the books by the Goswamis…so
many…Vaisnava books that had not been translated…and the BBT is just selecting maybe
one book per year.
Maharaja: The thing is it’s just to get the quality of translation that is there also. Because so
many translate but then it’s not. Because others have done things for the BBT but they
haven’t met to a standard. Because the difficulty is BBT is only going to publish something if
somebody gives them their rights. But then sometimes when people translate they become so
attached to their translation that they won’t give their rights, or they won’t let the BBT edit
it up to their standard of English. Somebody did Ramayana in British English, they wouldn’t
allow it to be converted into American English and different things like that. Or
Mahabharata that was done, but then they wanted full rights on it, they wouldn’t let the
BBT. Like this all these different things. So it’s not that they didn’t want to publish things.
It’s just where are the people who would translate, and who would do it at a level that they
want.
So I think Kusa-kratha wanted to do many things quick, so he wouldn’t actually spend
the time to get it up to a proper standard. Like you see the Brhad-bhagavatamrta, so that’s
being done really nice, but that took years. But something like that he’d probably do in three
months or something. So the amount of editing that would be necessary and time would be
spent he didn’t want to spend with it I think. He was just translating more to make it
available. So it’s nice. But to actually make it so it would be printable by the BBT he would
have to spend the time to go over. Because I think once he translated something he wouldn’t
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go back and edit it. He would just move on to the next book. So it’s there, it’s available. So
here then it’s been printed. Somebody has edited it and it was being printed.
Devotee (6): I want to ask about Sarva-bhavana’s edition of the Jaiva-dharma?
Maharaja: Sarva-bhavana’s edition? I haven’t read it. It’s probably nice, he does other things,
it’s quite nice. His language is more scholarly and so it can sometimes be hard to understand.
Devotee (1): I heard Suhotra Maharaja say that about his English is a bit you get stuck on
words there if you don’t know English very well…
Maharaja: You need a dictionary to read his books.
Devotee (1): In comparison to Purna-prajna’s ones you can read for hours and you won’t get
stuck once, because it’s like easy.
Maharaja: Bhanu Maharaja also. Bhanu Maharaja will be very technically correct, but he
won’t use any fancy words. If you technically want to be sure what’s going on you look at
Bhanu Maharaja. I don’t know if he has done this. Anything he has done is going to be
technically correct. Kusa-kratha will be more poetic. But he wouldn’t go back to check it, so
if there is any mistake made then that wouldn’t be brought out by him, someone else would
have to correct it. And then Gopi works with the team, so they bring it up to a standard for
the BBT.
Devotee (6): Sarva-bhavana’s Jaiva-dharma is in the Vedabase.
Maharaja: Oh ok, yes, it’s there. It’s just a matter of like he said, sometimes the vocabulary is
difficult, you may need a dictionary now and again. Most of it it’s very poetic, very sweet,
but it’s just sometimes the words are a little difficult.
Devotee (6): I wanted to ask about the word esk, is that an English word, or?
Maharaja: E-s-k.
Devotee (1): It’s funny when you said it, I was like kind of contained myself to not make any
comments, but is it an Urdu word, isk?
Maharaja: It’s Persian.
Devotee (1): In Hindi they use this isk as love, no?
Maharaja: Here they’ll say ischk.
Devotee (1): It will come from Urdu?
Maharaja: It will come from Persian. But from Persian it will come into Urdu. Urdu is just
basically a from one person explained it that, means Persian and Sanskrit mixed, when it’s
more Sanskrit it’s Hindi, when it’s more Persian it’s Urdu.
Devotee (1): More Sanskrit it’s Urdu?
Maharaja: No, more Persian it’s Urdu.
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Devotee (1): Can you say it again, I completely…
Maharaja: When you add more butter it becomes French. So if you have Sanskrit and
Persian and they become mixed, Hindi would have more of which, and Urdu would have
more of which?
Devotee (1): Hindi would more Sanksrit, and Urdu more Persian.
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (1): I mean the Pakistani also, they lean more on the… (end)
January 14, 2010

Maharaja: “Among the ways of executing devotional service, the nine prescribed methods
are the best, for these processes have great potency to deliver Krsna and ecstatic love for
Him.”
“Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the
holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily
obtains the most valuable love of Godhead.”
“O great soul, if you now ask, ‘Who is a Vaisnava?’ I give this reply: A person who
without offense chants the holy names of Lord Krsna is a Vaisnava. The Vaisnavas are again
divided into three groups: 1. kanistha (neophyte), 2. madhyama (intermediate), and 3.
uttama (advanced). One who from time to time chants the holy names of Lord Krsna is a
neophyte devotee. One who always chants the holy names of Lord Krsna is an intermediate
devotee. A person the sight of whose face causes others to chant the holy names of Krsna is
an advanced devotee. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu has taught us that one should not use any
other criterion to determine who is a Vaisnava.”
Diving into the nectar of these teachings, the saintly sannyasi began to chant:
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna
Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare
Singing these holy names, he danced again and again. From that day forward he found
great pleasure in chanting the holy names of Lord Hari. Offering dandavat obeisances to his
spiritual master’s lotus feet, he said, “O master, please be merciful to this fallen person.”
So Lord Caitanya is saying this is the criterion. In other words, it’s all to do with
chanting the holy name, not other elements. Because then we can find so many different
things. But generally speaking we will make so many distinctions, but it’s not necessarily
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those distinctions are actually important, or we ourselves can’t even make the proper
distinctions.
Like so many times I have heard devotees talking, they are trying to say, they are talking
about the same level, in one way they are but on another level they are not. They say, a
nitya-siddha, an uttama-adhikari, an advanced devotee, someone fixed in devotional service.
But in all that we have just talked about a whole range. A pure devotee. So nitya-siddha
means that one has already come to the platform of prema. An uttama-adhikari that means
someone who is on the platform of bhava. A pure devotee means anyone from nistha on up.
So they are actually three different levels, though all of them are pure devotees. The person
on bhava, the person on prema, are pure devotees. But at the same time, within that
category then there is different levels. One is a madhyama, one is an uttama within bhava,
and one is an uttama within prema. So this lack of distinction then.
So here Lord Caitanya gives this by chanting, the criterion is by chanting. Another
criterion that He’ll give is the element of how fixed they are. If anybody the speaking they
can defeat anybody and in argument establish Krsna consciousness, that’s an uttama. If
basically that’s what he does but occasionally someone by technical argument may be able to
defeat him, but it doesn’t disturb his faith at all. While the neophyte he may not be able to
present very nicely the philosophy and his faith can be disturbed. But that basically would
mean, one whose faith can be disturbed is not chanting in a much of a focused position.
Someone who is regularly chanting, committed to that chanting, then there is going to be
less chance of them being distracted. And then as one knows the scriptures, then he
becomes situated in that way.
So basically the nine processes will give you great potency to deliver Krsna. Of that the
chanting is the best. That chanting without offences, association of devotees under the
direction of the spiritual master, then that will bring you to love of God. It’s the essential
point of the Vedic literatures, it’s the essential point.
Chapter Three
The Soul's Temporary Duties are Imperfect, Horrible, Contaminated
and Short lived
Naimittik dharma asampurna, heya, misra o acirasthay
Staying on a small hill in Godruma forest and looking to the north, the saintly sannyasi
spent the whole day and three hours of the night in chanting the holy names of Lord Hari.
Then the full moon rose and filled Navadvipa-mandala with a wonderful splendor and
beauty. The sannyasi placed his glance on Sri Mayapura, which was not very far away.
The saintly sannyasi said, “Ah! Now I can see the wonderfully blissful spiritual abode.
The Ganga shore is splendid, garlanded with light from many great jewel palaces, temples,
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and archways. In many places tumultuous chanting of Lord Hari’s holy names fills the sky.
Hundreds of devotees playing vinas chant and dance like Narada Muni.
“In one place Lord Siva, the master of the demigods, manifests a white form. Playing a
dambaru drum, he chants, “O Caitanya, O maintainer of the universes, please be merciful to
me!” Wildly dancing again and again, he finally falls to the ground.
“In another place four-faced Brahma lectures on the Vedas to an assembly of sages. He
quotes and then purely explains these words (Svetasvatara Upanisad 3.12): “The Supreme
Personality of Godhead is Mahaprabhu who disseminates transcendental enlightenment.
Just to be in touch with Him is to be correct with the indestructible brahmajyoti.”
In another place Indra and the demigods jump and chant: “Glory to Lord Gauracandra!
Glory to Lord Nityananda!”
The birds on the branches chirp: “Caitanya! Nityananda!”
“Everyone is intoxicated by drinking the nectar of Lord Caitanya’s holy names. From
the gardens in the four directions come sweet humming sounds. Intoxicated by drinking the
nectar of Lord Caitanya’s holy names, Prakrti-devi (the goddess of the material nature) fills
every place with beauty and splendor. Ah! Now that I see the Sri Mayapura, what can I not
see? What do I see now?”
Remembering his spiritual master, he said, “O master, now I understand. It is by your
mercy that I am able to see the spiritual Mayapura. From this day I will stay in the
association of Lord Caitanya’s devotees. Now that I have seen the spiritual Mayapura, I will
wear tulasi beads, tilaka, and the writing of the holy names. This I will do.” Saying this again
and again, the saintly sannyasi fell unconscious for a moment.
After a moment he became conscious again. However he could no longer see the
wonderful spiritual vision he saw before. Weeping again and again, the saintly sannyasi said,
“I am very unfortunate. By my spiritual master’s mercy I was able for a moment to see the
holy abode of Sri Navadvipa.”
The next day the saintly sannyasi threw his ekadanda in the water, placed tulasi beads
around his neck, wore Vaisnava tilaka on his forehead, chanted “Hari! Hari!” and danced.
Seeing his wonderful new garments and demeanor, and remarking how fortunate he had
become, the residents of Godruma offered dandavat obeisances to him. Embarrassed, the
saintly sannyasi said, “It is by the Vaisnavas’ mercy that I am now dressed like a Vaisnava.
However, there is still a danger for me. Again and again I heard from my spiritual master’s
mouth these words (Sri Siksastaka 3, Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 20.21):
‘One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who
does not expect personal honor, but is always prepared to give all respects to others, can very
easily always chant the holy name of the Lord.”
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Then he remembered his Vaisnava spiritual master. He thought, “I should offer my
obeisances to him.” Again and again thinking in this way, he approached the paramahamsa
babaji and offered dandavat obeisances to him.
Sitting in his cottage of madhavi vines, the saintly babaji was chanting the holy names
of Lord Hari again and again. Seeing that the saintly sannyasi had completely changed his
garments and was chanting the holy names with spiritual love, the babaji again and again
bathed his disciple with the tears flowing from his eyes. Embracing him, the babaji said, “O
Vaisnava dasa, by today touching your perfectly auspicious body, my life is now a great
success.”
When he heard these words, the saintly sannyasi at once threw far away his previous
name. Now he accepted the name Vaisnava dasa. From that day on the saintly sannyasi
began a new life. He threw far away his mayavadi-sannyasi garments and arrogant sannyasi
name. In the afternoon many residents of Sri Pradyumna-kunja, Sri Godruma and Sri
Madhyadvipa came to see the saintly paramahamsa babaji. They all sat in a circle around the
saintly paramahamsa babaji. They all chanted the holy names of Lord Hari on tulasi beads.
Some chanted “O Gauranga-Nityananda”, others chanted “O Advaita, husband of Sita!”,
others chanted “Glory to the son of Saci!” Chanting again and again, their eyes became
filled with tears. All the Vaisnavas conversed about spiritual matters. All the assembled
Vaisnavas circumambulated the tulasi plant and offered dandavat obeisances to the
assembled Vaisnavas. Then Vaisnava dasa circumambulated the tulasi plant and then he
rolled about in the dust that had touched the Vaisnavas’ feet. The saintly Vaisnavas said,
“This is not the same sannyasi. Now his form is wonderful.”
Rolling on the ground before the Vaisnavas, Vaisnava dasa said, “Today I have attained
the dust of the Vaisnavas’ feet. Now my life is a success. By my spiritual master’s mercy I
have learned the truth. Without the dust of the Vaisnava’s feet, my future is not good. The
dust of the Vaisnava’s feet, the nectar water that has washed the Vaisnavas’ feet and the
nectar food touched by the Vaisnavas’ lips are three medicines to cure the disease of
repeated birth and death. They cure the disease of repeated birth and death. When he is
cured of the disease of repeated birth and death, a person enjoys great pleasure. O
Vaisnavas, formerly I was very proud of my great learning, but today there is no pride in my
heart. I was born in a brahmana family, I studied all the scriptures and I entered the
sannyasa-asrama. In this way my pride reached the highest point. When I was first attracted
to the Vaisnava religion the seed of humbleness was planted in my heart. Gradually, by your
mercy, I have thrown far away the pride I felt for my birth, learning and sannyasa. Now in
my heart I know that I am only a small soul, a soul without any shelter. Without taking
shelter of the Vaisnava’s feet, for me there is no hope. My status as a brahmana, my learning
and my sannyasa were actually making me degraded: leading me lower and lower. Therefore
I truly make this request at your feet: “Please accept me as your servant.”
Hearing Vaisnava dasa’s humble words, the Vaisnavas said, “O best of the devotees, we
are very eager to attain the dust from the feet of Vaisnavas like Vaisnava dasa. Please be
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merciful and make our lives successful by giving us the dust of your feet. You have attained
the mercy of a saintly paramahamsa babaji. Please give us your association and purify us.
Devotional service is attained by one who associates with devotees like yourself. This is
confirmed by the following words of Brhan-naradiya Purana:
“Devotional service is attained by associating with devotees. The association of devotees
is attained by past pious deeds.”
“Therefore it is because in the past we performed many devotional pious deeds that we
have obtained your association. Because we have attained your association we may now
hope to attain true devotional service.”
Saintly Vaisnava dasa thus stayed among the devotees as they humbly offered obeisances
to each other and conversed about devotional service. He looked splendid and glorious as in
his hands he held new beads for chanting the holy names of Lord Hari.
So all these different elements then they can be useful in trying to serve Krsna. But it
always must be remembered that they are only something instruments that may be useful.
It’s not that they themselves are something important. Knowledge is not important unless
it’s connected to Krsna. So he had so much knowledge, but it wasn’t connected to Krsna.
Now having come in contact with the paramahamsa babaji, his knowledge is greater actually
than before, but he is actually becoming humble. Because the real ornament of knowledge is
humility. So that means, now he has real knowledge, therefore he has humility. While
before it seemed he had knowledge, but he was proud. So he didn’t actually have real
knowledge, or real understanding of that knowledge. So the birth, the knowledge, the
asramas, all these different things are useful if they are connected to Krsna. But if they are
not, then not very useful actually. So then that’s being pointed out here.
So it’s actually the dust of the lotus feet of the Vaisnavas, this is also mentioned in the
Bhagavatam, that is what is important, that’s what actually makes us advanced. That was
Jada Bharata, he is mentioning that it’s the dust of the lotus feet of the devotees that make
it worthwhile. So these Vaisnavas they are performing their devotional activities, Vaisnava
dasa he then is glorifying them and taking shelter of them, at the same time, because he is
doing that from the attitude of the Vaisnava, they are also taking shelter of him. So that’s
the wonderful thing about it, it’s so perfect, because it’s all touching Krsna. So it works both
ways. That’s why one offers respects to others, not expecting anything in return. So then
this is working very good.
Past pious deeds means performance of devotional activities, that’s real piety.
Bhagavatam explains, activities done in relationship to Krsna then that’s considered pious,
activities not done in relationship to Krsna that’s considered impious. So those activities
done in relationship to Krsna that’s the pious deeds that they talk about. By that then one is
able to gain this kind of association and make this kind of advancement.
That day a fortunate person came to that group of Vaisnavas. Since childhood he was
able to read and write the language of the Yavanas. He imitated the activities of the
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Mohammedan kings and in their country he counted himself one amongst them. His home
was in Santipura. He was born in a brahmana family. He associated with many wealthy men.
For many days he enjoyed all worldly pleasures, but they did not make him happy. At the
end he turned to religion and began chanting the holy names of Lord Hari.
Here it mentions for some days, or many days, or a few days, because actually that’s all it
is. One may say, no, but it is so long. But actually if you think back, your whole life however
long it’s been it’s gone by in just a moment. So therefore a few days, it’s not that long.
When he was a child he had studied ragas and raginis from a Delhi classical music
teacher. He would employ this knowledge in melodiously singing the holy names of Lord
Hari. Gradually he became famous as a singer and musician in Vaisnava circles, and his
sweet singing was in great demand. After some days he began to understand the pleasures
that reside in the Lord’s holy names with the Vaisnavas there. He stayed at a Vaisnava’s
asrama. Accompanied by this Vaisnava, he came to the cottage of malati and madhavi vines
in Pradyumna-kunja. Hearing from Vaisnava dasa of the Vaisnavas’ saintliness and
humbleness, some doubts still remained in his mind. With boldness and eloquence he placed
a question before the assembled Vaisnavas.
Because you want an answer you have to present it, but with eloquence, it’s said very
nicely, very clearly. You know what you want to ask, it’s asked, at the same time, it’s asked
according to appropriate wording, tone and situation who you are discussing with. Not these
five-minute-not-quite-sure-what-you-are-saying questions.
He asked, “In Manu-samhita and the other dharma-sastras it is said that the brahmanas
are the best caste. In those scriptures are described the brahmana’s regular duties, which
begin with chanting the Gayatri mantra. If these are the regular activities of the best caste,
then why are the duties of the Vaisnavas different?”
The Vaisnavas did not reply. Afraid to dispute with this brahmana logician, they gave
no answer. After the asker of the question had sung the holy names of Lord Hari, the
Vaisnavas finally said, “The saintly paramahamsa babaji will answer your question. His reply
will make us happy.”
Hearing the order of the assembled Vaisnavas, the saintly paramahamsa babaji offered
dandavat obeisances and said, “O saintly devotees, if you wish, Sri Vaisnava dasa, the best of
devotees, will give the proper answer.”
So then the assembled devotees have given an order, so then he is taking it, even though
he is the paramahamsa. He is taking it that the Vaisnavas have asked, so therefore this is
what we’ll do. But he is saying, in this case we’ll have Vaisnava dasa reply.
Everyone was happy with this proposal.
Hearing his spiritual master’s words, and reflecting on his own good fortune, Sri
Vaisnava dasa said, “I am very fallen, and I do not possess anything of any value. Therefore
it is not right that I speak very much in the assembly of the saintly and wise. However, the
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spiritual master’s order should always be respectfully carried on one’s head. I have drunk the
nectar of truth, nectar words that flowed from my spiritual master’s mouth. Therefore I will
repeat what I can remember of his words. That I will do.”
So he is saying, I don’t have any qualifications, but because the spiritual master’s order is
there, therefore what I have heard I will speak. So that’s the thing. Not that, oh, I am so
useless, I am so fallen, therefore do nothing. No. I may be useless and fallen, but we have
heard, we have been given the order, then it’s carried out. Then that’s a matter, because
otherwise if we say, no, that would be the appropriate way to behave is to not speak. But
then that means then the only reason we do something because we think we are the doer?
And when we think I am not the doer then I don’t do anything? But to be able to
understand I am not the doer, but we do things anyway. Then we understand that it’s not us
but the Lord by whose grace everything is working.
After speaking these words, Vaisnava dasa placed on all his limbs the dust from the feet
of the saintly paramahamsa babaji. Then, offering dandavat obeisances, Vaisnava dasa spoke
the following words:
“The original form of the Supreme is the supremely blissful Supreme Person (bhagavan).
The impersonal Brahman is the effulgence of His transcendental body, and the all-
pervading Supersoul is His expansion. Sri Krsna Caitanya, who is the abode of all glory, and
all pastimes, taught this to us. The Manu-samhita and other dharma-sastras, which are
supplements to the original Vedas and which explain what should and should not be done,
should be followed by the entire world. The religious activities of human beings are of two
kinds: 1. vaidhi (spiritual rules and regulations to be followed), and 2. raganuga (spiritual
activities to which one is naturally attracted and which one performs even without being
impelled to do so by the rules of the scriptures).
In other words, vaidhi means spiritual rules and regulations that should be followed and
therefore you are following them. Raganuga means those spiritual activities you are
naturally attracted and you follow them whether that’s what the scripture says to do or not.
That doesn’t mean it’s not dictated by scripture, but that’s not the reason you are doing it.
You are doing it because you want to do it. The kids like to take prasadam, they are not
thinking, yes, we’ll take this because the rule is that one must honor maha-prasadam. No,
they are just eating. So it’s bona fide activity, but your impetus for doing it is not the rules
and regulations. The impetus is the natural spontaneous attraction.
When he is under the control of the illusory potency maya, the human being must
perform vaidhi spiritual activities. When he is freed from maya’s grip, the human being need
not perform vaidhi spiritual activities. Then his spiritual activities are raganuga.
Engagement in raganuga spiritual activities is the pure state of the individual spirit soul, a
state that is naturally pure, spiritual and free from matter. By Lord Krsna’s wish the pure
spirit soul may become free from the grip of matter. However, as long as that is not Lord
Krsna’s wish, the soul remains thrust into the calamity that is life in the material world. As
long as he is thrust into the calamity of material life, the soul cannot truthfully be liberated
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from the grip of matter simply by his own endeavors. When he is truthfully liberated from
the grip of matter, the pure soul naturally engages in ragatmika spiritual activities.
So he is also making a distinction here, when one is freed from maya’s grip. So that
would mean raganuga technically, this is also Rupa Goswami is mentioning this in Nectar of
Devotion, is actually happening at the platform of bhava, because then one is actually not
controlled by the material energy, and because he is not controlled by that, naturally his
spontaneous attraction for Krsna that becomes manifest, that becomes the driving force. So
because of this driving force then he is doing things because of his spontaneous attraction.
So that means that’s his constant what he is doing.
Before that if one is conditioned, then it’s mentioned that, the beginning stages of raga
can be there at the point of nistha, because one is anartha-nivrtti. Because the term used is
anartha-nivrtti, so all anarthas meaning the whole conditioned consciousness is gone at
bhava. But before that there is still some element of that conditioning there. But at nistha
means one is stable and steady in devotional activites. So at that point it is a matter of what
is spontaneous is what is performed with great enthusiasm, but there still may be other
aspects that are.
But the point is, raganuga at that stage one is following all the rules and regulations.
While when one comes to the bhava stage one can follow them or not depending upon if
one is preacing and those things then he follows, if he is not he is not worried about it he
doesn’t have to follow them. So that means that someone who is a madhyama who is
following because of rules and regulation, or who is a madhyama who is following, is inspired
because of raganuga, you actually won’t see any difference in the performance of their
devotional activities. Their sadhana will still look the same.
This is important to note, it won’t look any different. Because the point is, the element
of raga that is not something displayed. That’s one’s feeling. So to display a feeling you have
to have a medium. So the medium within the material sphere is always vaidhi. That’s why all
the different forms are given, so that it’s there, you know what to follow, and then you
practice that. Now if that’s being done because you are inspired by the rules or it’s naturally
spontaneous, that’s two different things. Only at the uttama platform then it’s a matter of
you can follow or not. But if you are preaching then you’ll naturally follow. If you are on
your own you may not follow. Because the point of the rule is to be always engaged in
Krsna’s service, so if you are always engaged favorably, then there is no need of the rule
being your directive, you are already doing what the rule is for.
The spiritual activities of the people of Vraja are ragatmika. When the soul still resides
in the calamity that is the material world, these activities are raganuga. As long as he
engages in raganuga spiritual activities, the soul in the material world is happy. As long as he
does not engage in raganuga spiritual activities, the soul in the material world is attracted to
the illusions of maya. Attracted to maya, the soul becomes bewildered, so that he is not
attracted to pure spirit. ‘It is ‘I’ and ‘It is mine’ are the two conceptions maya thrusts upon
the soul. Then the soul thinks, ‘This material body is mine’ and ‘I am this body’. In this
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condition the soul loves persons who bring pleasure to his material body and hates persons
who thwart the bringing of pleasure to his material body. Thus the bewildered soul becomes
a slave of love and hatred.
So here also then we saw that it’s giving that the residents, the activities of the people of
Vraja are ragatmika. So one is coming to prema that’s called ragatmika, raga is the life. One
always has to remember whose rage that is. The raga of the primary devotees, the raga of the
devotees that one is following in their footsteps. In other words, we are raganuga because we
are following those who are ragatmika. But the point is a ragatmika still means the same
thing. Means your life is serving that raga or attachment of those advanced devotees, so
that’s ragatmika. Raganuga means you are following in the footsteps of those kind of
devotees.
So we can see here, he says that …still resides in the calamity that is the material world,
these activities are raganuga. So resides doesn’t mean that he is necessarily conditioned. In
other words, you can also take this as, one is you could take this, while he is conditioned
then he would be engaged in raganuga, when he is not conditioned then it would be
ragatmika. But at the same time, it can be, while one is within this world, means one is
interacting with this world one follows raganuga. When one is not interacting with this
world then one could follow ragatmika. But technically speaking ragatmika would mean
prema, or at least it’s coming to that, it would be at least at the point of apana-dasa.
You understand how these things are overlaid? So it can be in both of the things. Means
you can either be discussing from nistha up through asakti and then you are counting then
beyond that, or you can make it that it’s going after that, means from bhava up to prema. Or
very technically from nistha, past asakti, into the first three stages of bhava. Then from the
fourth stage of bhava then that’s another consideration.
The bewildered soul thinks others are either his friends or his enemies in three ways: 1.
saririla (in relation to material bodies) 2. samajika (in relation to society and social groups),
and 3. naitika (in the context of ideas).
So these are friends or enemies, so people based on the body, family relationships, like
this kind of thing then that would be the one, or based on the senses. The second then is
relationship to the society and social groups, you are part of this nation or part of this
community, or in some way there is some kind of social element, one is the hippie or the
bohemian or the guy in your 3p suit, or whatever it is you have like that. Then the other is
in context of ideas, so they are not worried about what your background is, what family
relationship, but you have a common idea. So therefore someone let’s say, all the greenies
get together, they don’t care what background you are this or that, but they are all in
support of the environment, so therefore they have same idea. You know what green is?
Green is this color here.
Devotee (1): …from the greenpeace…
Maharaja: Yes, like that. So some also call them greenies.
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One who unlawfully desires gold and women will find himself a slave to pleasures and
pains. That condition of life is called: samsara (the world of repeated birth and death). One
who is attached to the world of samsara is subject to birth, death, karmic reactions, and a
variety of living conditions, some high and some low. Thus the souls bound by material
illusion wander here and there in the material worlds. However, the souls attracted to spirit
do not experience these troubles. Those who are attracted to spirit attain their eternal
spiritual nature. Those who forget they are by nature small particles of spirit fall down into
the experience of material life. Staying in the material world, they suffer many misfortunes,
although they think they do not suffer misfortunes at all.
So in other words, someone who is caught up in this whole thing of wealth, the whole
social system, all these different things like that, that is going to create one’s conditioning in
this world. So that will be either based like we said more on the bodily concept, more on the
community concept, or more on ideology. But in any case it’s one is attached to the things of
the material world, it’s illegal, because it’s not connected to the Supreme Lord, so it’s not
going to be progressive. That’s what makes it illegal. It can be even pious, because when we
say here illegal, then one thinks, oh, that means just the impious, but the point it’s not
counting. No, but we are talking Bhagavatam discussion of piety, whether it’s pious or
impious if it’s not connected to the Lord then it’s actually illegal, because it all belongs to
God. So whether you pleasantly deal with it or not pleasantly deal.
Like you steal the other guy’s car, but you put air in the tires and change the oil, give it a
nice clean, and everything like that. So you are dealing with his stolen goods very nicely.
But still it’s stolen goods.
So they suffer but they say they are not suffering at all, as long as it’s going their way.
For the souls bound by maya, the activities of ragatmika are far away and the activities
of raganuga are not accepted. It is only by the mercy of a devotee of the Lord that the
activities of raganuga may arise within a conditioned soul’s heart. The activities of raganuga
are rare and difficult to attain. The residents of the material world have been cheated of
them.
However, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is all knowing and full of mercy. He sees
that the souls imprisoned by maya have been cheated by their spiritual activities. How will
these souls attain auspiciousness? By what means will the souls bewildered by maya
remember Lord Krsna? The answer is that by associating with saintly devotees the soul is
able to understand that he is in reality a servant of Lord Krsna. The rules of ordinary piety
do not enjoin that one associate with saintly devotees. How, then, does one associate with
devotees, or what makes one desire to associate with devotees? The association of devotees
does not generally happen when one follows the path of rules and regulations (vidhi-marga).
That is not the way one comes to associate with devotees. It is from the merciful glance of
the Supreme Personality of Godhead that the scriptures are created. Born from the mercy of
the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the sun of the scriptures rises in the sky of the
devotee’s heart. In this way the rules of piety are manifested.
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In other words, it is by the Lord’s grace that one comes in contact. So He wants that to
happen and then that comes through the mercy of the devotees, because He is merciful,
then the devotees are carrying this mercy, and therefore then one comes in contact. Because
the sastras aren’t saying one should associate with Vaisnavas. It is talking about elevated
association, keeping good association, keeping out of bad association, only associating with
those who accept the Vedas, follow the Vedas, but it doesn’t technically talk about devotees.
In the beginning is the Vedas. One part of the Vedas teaches fruitive work, another part
transcendental knowledge, and another part loving devotional service. The individual souls
bewildered by maya are situated in different states of existence. Some are very bewildered,
some are a little enlightened, and some are very enlightened. In this way the conditioned
souls have different kinds of intelligence. The Vedas teach all these classes of souls.
Although one may consider that the souls have an infinite variety of natures, still they are
grouped into three broad categories: 1. those qualified to perform fruitive work (karma), 2.
those eligible for transcendental knowledge (jnana), and 3. those eligible to engage in loving
devotional service (prema) to the Supreme Lord. The Vedas thus describes these three
categories of eligibility. The Veda’s description of what should and should not be done by
these three classes of living entities constitute Vaidhi-dharma (the rules of religion). When
one actively performs pious deeds that is called vaidhi-pravrtti. They who do not follow the
rules of Vaidhi commit sinful acts. Therefore living entities should always avoid actions that
violate these rules and regulations. They who are outside the jurisdiction of the Vedas are
called by the name mleccha and by other names also. The conclusion, then, is that three
classes of living entities are qualified to follow the Veda.
So in other words, those who follow the rules and regulations, so vaidhi is what is the
rules to be followed by those who are just performing pious activities, those who are situated
in transcendental knowledge, and those situated in devotional service. So the rules and
regulations then are described for all these three. So many times you see also, especially in
ordinary activities, they are the same, they are common. Because the whole point is, it’s
coming from the natural spiritual culture. The spiritual culture is performing activities,
karma, to please the Lord. The devotional activities are all to please the Lord. So therefore
the forms of those activities that would be your basis of your karma. They are all situated
beyond the material sphere. So that means all the elements of jnana are already included in
their activities. And they are doing it to please Krsna, so it’s bhakti, or prema. So the forms
won’t actually necessarily change.
Sometimes there is, because a particular form may be manifested so that one of these
systems may seem complete on its own. Karma may seem complete on its own, when it
technically is not complete on its own. Or jnana may seem complete on its own, though it’s
not complete on its own. Bhakti is complete on its own, because using one’s intelligence to
nicely serve Krsna is the natural platform. So that means it includes both the activities of
karma and jnana. So the karma and jnana of this world it’s a reflection of the real karma
and real jnana.
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Devotee (2): So is this element of the form being the same the reason why Rupa Goswami
can take verses that are not directly related to bhakti-yoga and put them in the Nectar of
Instructions, like the six things unfavorable for devotional service? That they are from the
hatha-yoga-pradipa…
Maharaja: Could be.
Devotee (2): Is because the forms are the same.
Maharaja: Yes, the forms are the same. Just like Bharata Muni’s nadya-sastra. He’ll describe
all the elements of ecstasies and all these, because someone is acting, so they have to know
what would be the forms of emotions felt by a person at any one time and what they look
like. So he quotes from there to describe many times the devotional moods, feelings, and
natural progression, because it’s a reflection. So the reflection always looks the same as the
original. It just doesn’t have the substance, that’s all. Its substance is its connection with the
original.
Means the shadow of the tree only has meaning because it’s the shadow of that tree. On
its own it won’t have any meaning. So the reflection is only as important as you see it in
relationship to the original. That’s all. that means you see yourself in the mirror and you
want to, let’s say, wash a spot of your face, therefore the reflection is only as useful as it
helps you get the spot of your face. If it doesn’t it won’t work very good. What’s the use
then? But the form is going to always look the same.
That’s many times a mistake, we think it can’t look the same. But who says that the
forms can’t look the same? We don’t say that. The impersonalist schools say that. Any
school whose ultimate goal is impersonal, then they’ll say it can’t be the same, because
spiritual has to be different. And the other grosser materialists they don’t have any problem
with form, but they don’t know that there is such a thing as spiritual form, so they also don’t
understand reflection. So they accept form, but don’t understand spiritual. And the others
understand spiritual, but don’t understand form. So buddhi-yoga means you understand
both, then you are able to use them properly.
So those who don’t accept the Vedas then they are acting outside of that. So then they
are not technically qualified. So for someone who is outside the Vedas is not technically
qualified to make a comment that the Vedas aren’t so important doesn’t actually have any
meaning. So we see here, persons who could follow, who by following higher rules have
given up they make comments. But you don’t see that they ever badmouth the Vedas. They
just say, you don’t need to follow those rules. But they never say that they Vedas themselves
have a problem.
For their benefit the great sages have written many books to supplement the hymns of
the Veda. Manu and twenty other sages thus wrote the dharma-sastras to benefit the persons
eligible to perform pious fruitive work (karma). Different philosophers wrote books of logic
and philosophy to benefit the persons eligible for philosophical speculation (jnana). The
great devotees wrote the Puranas and pure Tantras to teach the persons eligible to engage in
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devotional service (bhakti) and to guide their actions. This is the nature of all the Vedic
literatures. The philosophy of the mimamsakas is not seen anywhere in the original
scriptures. Every point that the followers of mimamsaka claim shows the superiority of their
idea is easily thrown into a dark hole of counter-arguments and doubts. In all the scriptures
the uttara-mimamsa (Vedanta) philosophy is most clearly shown in Bhagavad-gita. The
teaching of karma that ignores jnana is an atheistic kind of karma and that teaching should
be rejected. In the same way the teaching of karma and jnana that ignores bhakti is atheistic
karma and jnana. There are only three kinds of yoga: karma-yoga, jnana-yoga and bhakti-
yoga. That is the Vaisnava description of the Veda’s teachings.
So here he is saying, the karma is, in other words, how people will purify themselves,
uplift themselves, then have been written into the dharma-sastras. Those who they have a
little bit of enlightenment then the jnana-sastras then are given, so that they may elevate
themselves. And then for those for bhakti then the Puranas and the pure Tantras are
written.
Because tantra means ritual technically. Means just by default generally we say tantra
we mean that which is connected with the ritual with worship of Devi. But technically
tantra just means ritual. Like you have mantra, you have tantra. Mantra means the verses
that are chanted, and tantra means the ritual in which you apply those verses. So then the
pure Tantras are those that are describing devotional service to the Lord, like Gautamiya-
tantra.
And then the mimamsakas they are claiming to follow karma, but they don’t actually
accept jnana. So that karma without any knowledge that doesn’t really work very well. And
then karma and jnana that doesn’t accept bhakti those have no meaning either. (end of
lecture) (end)
January 18, 2010

(recording missing)
January 19, 2010
(recording missing)
The individual soul bewildered by maya first takes shelter of fruitive work (karma).
Then he takes shelter of karma-yoga. At the end, when he comes to the conclusion of karma
yoga and jnana yoga, he takes shelter of bhakti yoga. The soul bewildered by maya does not
ascend only one step in the staircase. Ascending only one step of the staircase, he cannot
enter the temple of devotional service.
What is taking shelter of fruitive work (karma)? Fruitive work is the activity performed
by the body and mind while one is alive in the body. Fruitive work is of two kinds: 1.
auspicious, and 2. inauspicious. By performing inauspicious work one attains an inauspicious
result. Inauspicious work is called either ‘papa’ (sin) or ‘vikarma’ (evil work). When one does
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not perform auspicious work that is called ‘akarma’. Both of these are bad. Auspicious work
is good. Work is of three kinds: 1. nitya (regular), 2. naimittika (occasional) and 3. kamya
(desired). Kamya work, where the desire for personal benefit is very prominent, should be
avoided. Nitya and naimittika work, on the other hand, is work prescribed by scripture.
Considering what should and should not be done, the scriptures explain what is nitya,
naimittika and kamya work. Akarma (failure to do auspicious work) and vikarma
(inauspicious work) are not the same as karma (auspicious work). When one avoids kamya
work, then his work is nitya or naimittika. Work that brings auspiciousness to the body, the
mind, other people or humanity at large, is called nitya work. Everyone should perform nitya
work. When work prompted by a temporary circumstance is like nitya work in this way, it is
called naimittika work. Chanting Gayatri, offering obeisances and cleanliness are activities
that maintain one’s own body and the welfare of society at large. So also do honest dealings
and protection of they who should be protected. All these are nitya work. Duties to one’s
deceased parents, other like duties, and atonement of sins are all naimittika work.
Nitya and naimittika work bring good to the world. Therefore the great sages order that
such auspicious work be performed. Considering the different natures of the human beings,
they thus describe what is called the varnasrama system. According to their natural
tendency for work, human beings are thus divided into four classes: 1. brahmana, 2. ksatriya,
3. vaisya, and 4. sudra. In this material world there are also four other divisions, called
asramas. The four asramas are: 1. grhastha, 2. brahmacari, 3. vanaprastha and 4. sannyasi.
They who are fond of performing akarma and vikarma work are called antyaja (the lowest)
and nirasrama (outside the asrama system). The different varnas (classes) are determined
according to 1. birth, 2. nature, 3. work and 4 qualities. Whenever the varnas are determined
by birth, the meaning of the varnasrama system is lost. The different asramas are
determined according to these states: 1. being married, 2. not being married, and 3. the
renunciation of association with women. They who are married are in the grhastha asrama.
They who are not married are in the brahmacari asrama. They who have renounced
association with women are in the vanaprastha and sannyasa asramas. Of all the asramas,
the sannyasa asrama is the best. Of all the varnas, the brahmana varna is the best. This is all
described in the crest jewel of all scriptures, Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.15-21) in the
following words: “The various occupational and social division of human society appeared
according to inferior and superior natures manifest in the situation of the individual’s birth.
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, cleanliness, satisfaction, tolerance, simple
straightforwardness, devotion to Me, mercy and truthfulness are the natural qualities of the
brahmanas.
“Dynamic power, bodily strength, determination, heroism, tolerance, generosity, great
endeavor, steadiness, devotion to the brahmanas, and leadership are the natural qualities of
the ksatriyas.
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“Faith in Vedic civilization, dedication to charity, freedom from hypocrisy, service to
the brahmanas, and perpetually desiring to accumulate more money are the natural qualities
of the vaisyas.
“Service without duplicity to the brahmanas, cows, demigods, and other worshippable
personalities and complete satisfaction with whatever income is obtained by such service,
are the natural qualities of sudras.
“Dirtiness, dishonesty, thievery, faithlessness, useless quarrel, lust, anger, and hankering
constitute the nature of those in the lowest position outside the varnasrama system.
“Non violence, truthfulness, honesty, desire for the happiness and welfare of all others
and freedom from lust, anger, and greed constitute duties for all members of society.”
In the assembly of the wise, everyone can understand the meaning of the scriptures.
Therefore I shall not give any comment on these words. I will only say this: The duties of
varna and asrama are the root of following the scriptures rules and regulations (vaidha). A
country is impious to the degree it does not follow varnasrama.
“Now let us consider: How are the words ‘nitya’ (eternal) and ‘naimittika’ (temporary)
used here with the word ‘karma’? If we consider the deep meaning of the scriptures, we will
see that these two words do not refer to the supreme spiritual goal of life. The terms are used
with ordinary, or material meaning.
“Words like ‘nitya-karma’, ‘nitya-tattva’ and ‘nitya-sattva’ may be applied only to the
soul’s pure spiritual position. They cannot be used to refer to anything else. Therefore when
the word ‘nitya is used to modify the word ‘karma’ that ‘nitya karma’, seemingly of the
material world, indirectly refers to the eternal spiritual reality. The karma of the material
world is never eternal. When karma is employed in karma yoga, karma yoga leads to the
search for jnana (knowledge) and that search leads to bhakti (devotional service), then that
karma and jnana may be called ‘nitya’ because they lead to something that actually is nitya.
“Therefore a brahmana’s chanting of the Gayatri mantra is called a ‘nitya karma’
because, even though it is an activity in relation to the material body, it does have an
oblique reference to the path of devotional service. Therefore these things may be called
‘nitya’ even though in themselves they are not really ‘nitya’. Such a usage is called ‘upacara’
(a figure of speech).
“The word ‘nitya karma’ can be applied truthfully only to krsna-prema (pure love for
Lord Krsna). The word ‘nitya karma’ can be applied truthfully only to the realm of the
spirit. When the activities of this material world are used for advancement in spiritual life,
those activities may be called ‘nitya karma’. There is nothing wrong with that usage.
However, one who sees the truth does not call these activities ‘nitya’ (eternal). He prefers to
call them ‘naimittika’ (temporary). It is not really true that the words ‘nitya karma’ and
naimittika karma’ may refer to materialistic activities.
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“In truth, the eternal nature of the soul is purely spiritual. The religion that describes
the pure soul is the real eternal religion. All other religions are temporary. Varnasrama
dharma, astanga yoga, sankhya and austerities are all temporary. If an individual spirit soul
is not bound by maya, there is no need for him to follow any of these paths. These temporary
religions are meant only for souls bewildered by maya. All these religions are intended for
certain specific circumstances. Therefore the truth is that they are all temporary.
“The brahmanas are the best of the social classes, the brahmana’ duty is to chant the
Gayatri mantra, and the sannyasi’s duty is to renounce other duties. However all these
duties are temporary. All these duties are praised by the dharma-sastras, and they are good
for some spiritual aspirants. Still, they are not in any way equal to the eternal duties of the
soul, Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10) explains:
“If a brahmana has all twelve of the brahminical qualifications (as they are stated in the
book called Sanat-sujata) but is not a devotee and is averse to the lotus feet of the Lord, he
is certainly lower than a devotee who is a dog-eater but who has dedicated everything -
mind, words, activities, wealth and life - to the Supreme Lord. Such a devotee is better than
such a brahmana because the devotee can purify his whole family, whereas the so-called
brahmana in a position of false-prestige cannot purify even himself.
The twelve brahminical qualifications here are: 1. truthfulness, 2. self-control, 3.
austerity, 4. freedom from envy, 5. modesty, 6. tolerance, 7. freedom from malice, 8. sacrifice,
9. charity, 10 steadiness, 11. hearing the Vedas, and 12. observing vows. A brahmana who
possesses these twelve qualities should be honored by everyone in the world. However, if a
brahmana has all these qualities,, but has no devotion for Lord Krsna, then that brahmana is
degraded. Even a devotee who is a dog-eater is better than such a brahmana. The meaning
here is that the dog-eater referred to is a person who has taken birth in a dog-eater family,
but by association with saintly persons becomes purified (samskara), and because of that
purification engages in the eternal spiritual activities of the soul. The brahmana referred to
here is a person who has taken birth in a brahmana family, but is averse to the eternal
activities of the soul, and prefers to perform temporary, material activities in their stead.
Than such a brahmana, such a dog-eater is better.
“Human beings in the material world are of two kinds: 1. the intelligent, and 2. the
unintelligent. The material world is filled with unintelligent human beings. Intelligent
human beings are rare. Among such unintelligent persons, the brahmanas are the best, and
thus the duties of the brahmanas, such as their chanting of the Gayatri mantra, are the best
of these kinds of duties. ‘Intelligent person’ is a synonym for the word ‘Vaisnava’. The
activities of the Vaisnavas and the activities of unintelligent persons are inevitably very
different. However the teachings of the Vaisnavas and the teachings of the unintelligent
followers of the smrti-sastras (the so-called smartas) are not really opposed to each other.
The teachings of the scriptures are always in harmony with each other. Intelligent persons
accept the scriptures as their friends. They do not think that the different duties described
in the scriptures have different purposes in the end. The duties prescribed in the scriptures
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for unqualified persons are indeed different from the duties prescribed for the intelligent.
Still, these different activities have the same purpose at their root. For the unintelligent the
scriptures prescribe temporary duties as most appropriate. However, temporary duties are all
imperfect, horrible, contaminated and short lived.
“These temporary duties are not the same as directly spiritual duties. Temporary duties
may be accepted when they follow the spiritual path. Then they help one to attain the
spiritual nature. When the means does not lead to the goal, the means should be rejected.
Therefore the means is not complete in itself. It is merely a part, a separated fragment of
what will be the final goal. Therefore temporary duties are not complete. For example, a
brahmana’s chanting Gayatri, like his other duties as well, is subjected to various rules and
meant to be performed only at certain specified times. All these duties are not manifested
from the soul’s natural spiritual activities. However, after many days of following such rules
a person may become purified by associating with saintly Vaisnavas. Then he develops a
liking for the spiritual holy name of Lord Hari. At that time he does not continue other
activities, such as the chanting of Gayatri. Chanting the holy name of Lord Hari is the
perfect spiritual activity. The chanting of Gayatri and other like activities are only various
means to attain the goal, which is the chanting of Lord Hari’s holy name. Therefore these
activities are not the final perfection. Saintly persons teach that these temporary duties,
while honorable in themselves, are still imperfect, horrible, contaminated, and short lived.
The spiritual truth is the final goal. Because they bring one into contact with matter and
materialists, temporary duties are horrible for the individual souls. Temporary duties are
very material. Temporary duties bring with them many irrelevant results. The individual
soul naturally attains these results. Even though he does not wish these petty results, he
cannot escape them.
“For example, that a brahmana worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead is good.
However, a brahmana tends to think, ‘I am brahmana. Other souls are inferior to me.” Such
a falsely brahmana finds that his worship of the Lord brings a horrible result. Mystic powers
obtained by practicing astanga-yoga also bring horrible results. They are very inauspicious
for the individual souls. Material sense gratification and impersonal liberation are the two
unavoidable friends of temporary duties. Only if he can cheat these two will the individual
soul attain his root spiritual nature. Therefore temporary duties are very horrible for the
individual soul.
Temporary duties are short lived. The soul’s temporary duties are not performed in all
situations and all times. For example: a brahmana’s brahmana nature, a ksatriya’s ksatriya
nature, and other like natures also, are manifested because of a particular cause. When the
cause ceases to be, these natures vanish. A person may in one birth be a brahmana and in
the next birth an outcaste. Therefore the duties of the brahmana caste are temporary. They
are not the original duties of the soul. Therefore in reference to temporary duties the phrase
‘own duty’ is only a figure of speech. That is why in every birth a soul’s ‘own duty’ changes.
However, in none of these births does the soul’s eternal duty ever change. This eternal duty
is the soul’s true ‘own duty’. Temporary duties are all short lived.
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“If one asks, ‘What are the duties of the Vaisnavas?’ then I answer: The Vaisnavas’
duties are the eternal duties of the soul. When he is liberated from the world of matter, the
Vaisnava soul attains his pure spiritual body, and with that body he engages in devotional
activities that express his spiritual love for Lord Krsna. When he resides in the material
world, a person who is intelligent respectfully accepts all that advances his spiritual life and
rejects all that hinders it. He does not blindly follow the orders and prohibitions of the
scriptures. When the scriptures encourage devotion to Lord Hari, then such a person
happily accepts those teachings. When the scriptures’ teachings do not encourage devotion,
he does not dishonor those teachings. In the same way a Vaisnava also honors or rejects the
prohibitions taught in the scriptures. A Vaisnava is the best person in the world. A
Vaisnava is the friend of everyone in the world. A Vaisnava is the auspiciousness of the
world. In this way I have humbly said all I wish to say to this assembly of Vaisnavas. May the
Vaisnavas wash away all my faults and mistakes.”
After speaking these words, Vaisnava dasa offered dandavat obeisances to the Vaisnava
assembly, and then sat down to one side. The Vaisnavas’ eyes were filled with tears. With
one voice the Vaisnavas called out, “Well done! Well done!” The four directions of
Godruma forest echoed with “Well done! Well done!”
The brahmana singer who had first asked the question could see deep truth in many of
the speaker’s arguments. Although he still had some doubts, the seed of faith in the
Vaisnava religion had been very firmly planted in his mind. With folded hands he said, “O
great souls, I was not a Vaisnava. Again and again hearing Lord Hari’s holy names, I have
now become a Vaisnava. If you are merciful and teach me a little more, all my doubts will go
far away.”
Then Sri Prema dasa, the saintly paramahamsa babaji, mercifully said, “Stay with
Sriman Vaisnava dasa. He is learned in all the scriptures. At Varanasi he deeply studied
Vedanta-sutra and accepted sannyasa. By the limitless mercy of Sri Krsna Caitanya, who is
the Lord of our lives, he was attracted to Sri Navadvipa. He knows all the truths of the
Vaisnava religion. Deep love for Lord Hari’s holy names has taken its birth within him.
The questioner was a pious man named Sri Kalidasa Lahiri. Hearing the saintly babaji’s
words, in his heart he accepted Vaisnava dasa as his spiritual master. In his mind he
thought, “This person was born in a brahmana family and he accepted sannyasa. Therefore
he is fit to teach a brahmana. Also, I see that he has deeply entered the truths of Vaisnava
religion. From him I will learn much about the Vaisnava religion. Thinking in this way,
Lahiri Mahasaya offered dandavat obeisances at Sri Vaisnava’s feet and said, “O great soul,
please be merciful to me.” Offering dandavat obeisances to him, Vaisnava dasa replied, “If
you are merciful to me, then I have attained my wish.”
With sunset approaching, everyone returned to their own places.
Lahiri Mahasaya’s home was in a secluded part of the village. It was in a grove. In the
middle was a cottage of madhavi vines and a platform of tulasi-devi. There were two rooms,
one on each side. The yard was hedged with cita bushes. With a bela tree, nim tree, and
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some other trees bearing fruits and flowers, the place was charming. The proprietor of that
grove was named Madhava dasa Babaji. At first the babaji had been a good soul, but by bad
association he had fallen away from the Vaisnava religion. Because of improper association
with a woman, his devotional practices were now dwarfed. Pushed by poverty, he could not
live happily. He begged in many places and rented out one of his rooms. Lahiri Mahasaya
was now staying in that room.
In the middle of the night Lahiri Mahasaya’s sleep was broken. Again and again he
thought of what Vaisnava dasa Babaji had said. Then he heard a sound in the courtyard.
Coming outside, in the courtyard he saw Madhava dasa talking with the woman. Seeing
him, the woman disappeared. Embarrassed before Lahiri Mahasaya, Madhava dasa stood
motionless.
Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Babaji, what’s wrong?”
Tears in his eyes, Madhava dasa replied, “O my misfortune! What more can I say? What
was I in the past? What am I now? How much faith the saintly paramahamsa babaji had in
me! Now I am ashamed even to come near him.”
Lahiri Mahasaya said, “If you tell me clearly, I can understand.”
Madhava dasa said, “The woman you saw was my married wife in my former asrama. A
few days after I accepted a life of renunciation, she came to Sri Santipura and lived in a
cottage she built by the Ganga’s shore. Many days passed in that way. Walking by the
Ganga’s shore at Sri Santipura, I saw her and said, ‘Why did you leave your home?’ She told
me, ‘Material life is not good. Now that I am robbed of your feet, I will stay at a holy place
and beg alms.’ Not saying anything more, I slowly returned to Sri Godruma. At Sri Godruma
I eventually stayed at a Sad-gopa’s house. Every day, at some place or other, I would see her.
The more I tried to avoid her, the more she tried to come near me. Now she stays at an
asrama. She comes late at night and tries to ruin me. Now I am infamous everywhere.
Because I now associate with her, my devotional service has become dwarfed. I am a cinder
that blackens the family of Sri Krsna Caitanya’s servants. Since the time of Chota
Haridasa’s punishment, I am the deserving of punishment. Being merciful, the babaji of Sri
Godruma have not yet punished me, but they do not trust me.
Hearing these words, Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Take care, O Madhava dasa Babaji”. After
speaking these words, he entered the house. The babaji sat on his own seat.
Lahiri Mahasaya could not sleep. Again and again he thought, “Madhava dasa Babaji has
fallen down. He is like one who eats his own vomit. I should not stay in this house. Why
not? Even if I do not fall down by associating with him, I will be criticized by others. Not
trusting me, the pure Vaisnavas will not teach me.
At sunrise he went to Pradyumna-kunja, properly greeted Sri Vaisnava dasa and asked
for a place to stay. When Vaisnava dasa informed the saintly paramahamsa babaji of this
request, the babaji said he could stay in a cottage on one side of the forest. Lahiri Mahasaya
stayed in that cottage and arranged to get prasadam at the home of a nearby brahmana.
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February 1, 2010
Maharaja:
Chapter Four
Another Name for the Eternal Religion is the Vaisnava Religion
Nitya-dharmer namantara vaisnava-dharma
Because the book is Jaiva-dharma, which means eternal or universal.
The cottage of Lahiri Mahasaya and the cottage of Sri Vaisnava dasa stood side by side.
Nearby were some mango and kanthala trees. Some betel plants gracefully enclosed the
place on four sides. In the courtyard was a large circular terrace. The terrace had been there
since the days when Pradyumna Brahmacari lived there. Many days since then the
Vaisnavas came to call that place “Surabhi’s Terrace” and became accustomed to
circumambulate it and offer dandavat obeisances.
It was shortly after dusk. Sitting on a leaf-seat in his cottage, Sri Vaisnava dasa chanted
the holy names of Lord Hari. It was the dark fortnight. The night was gradually becoming
dark. A flickering lamp burned in Lahiri Mahasaya’s cottage. Seeing a snake at his doorway,
Lahiri Mahasaya quickly trimmed the lamp and took up a stick to kill the snake, but when
he came outside with his lamp he did not see the snake. Then Lahiri Mahasaya said to
Vaisnava dasa, “Take care. A snake has entered your cottage.” Vaisnava dasa replied, “Why
do you worry about a snake? Come. Enter my cottage without fear.” Lahiri Mahasaya
entered the cottage and sat on the leaf seat. Still, his mind was agitated about the snake. He
said “O noble-hearted one, Santipura is very good in this way. It is a city and there is no fear
of snakes or other dangers. In Nadiya there is always fear of snakes. Especially in Godruma
and the other forest places. It is hard for a gentleman to live in those places.
Sri Vaisnava dasa babaji replied, “O Lahiri Mahasaya, It is foolish to let the mind be
agitated over these things. You must have heard the story of Maharaja Pariksit in the
Srimad-Bhagavatam. Giving up all fear of snakes, with an unagitated mind he heard nectar
descriptions of Lord Hari from the mouth of Srila Sukadeva Goswami. In this way he
attained transcendental bliss. No snake can kill a man’s spiritual body. The spiritual body is
bitten only by the snake of separation from hearing the nectar topics of the Supreme Lord.
The material body is not eternal. Some day you must give it up. One may do everything to
maintain his material body. Still, whenever Lord Krsna wills, that material body will
certainly collapse, and one will not be able to protect it. If the time of one’s death has not
yet come, one may even sleep beside a snake, but the snake will not harm him. Therefore
one who gives up fear of snakes or other dangers may be called a true Vaisnava. If it is afraid
of every danger, the mind will always be restless. How can a restless mind always think of
Lord Hari’s lotus feet? Therefore one should abandon all fear of snakes and all attempts,
born from that fear, to kill snakes.
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Becoming a little faithful, Lahiri Mahasaya said, “O saintly one, your good words have
made my heart fearless. I know that only a person with a noble heart is qualified to attain
the final goal of life. The great souls who stay in mountain caves and worship the Lord there
are never afraid of wild animals. On the contrary, it is because they fear the association of
materialistic persons that they voluntarily live in the forest surrounded by wild animals.”
So the point here is you are distinguishing between fear, why is this fear here, or
actually it’s just the point of fear itself. The reason of being worried about the snake or not
shouldn’t be based on the worry of losing the body, that’s not the position. Because as it is if
one is supposed to live then nothing will happen. And if one is not supposed to live no
matter what you do something will happen.
Pariksit Maharaja not in this time but in a previous millennium then he was very
worried about the snake, about Taksika. So he built a palace that had no windows or
anything, no way to get into it. It was a palace built on one whole, and in that whole there
was one door and that was guarded. So the only way to get in was through that door. And so
like this then he thought he had protected himself from Taksiksa. But Taksika took the
form of a bug and came in a basket of fruit, means his other friends, other snakes, celestial
snakes and they took the form of brahmanas and carrying a basket of fruit to give to Pariksit
Maharaja, then they passed, came inside. And having come inside then Pariksit Maharaja, it
was already the when he was supposed to be bit during the daytime and it’s just coming on
twilight, so he figured the day is finished. So on the fruit there was this bug, which he didn’t
know was Taksika, but even it wasn’t a nice-looking bug, it was a very strange-looking bug.
So he thought, ok, then because it’s been said that Taksika will bite him, so let us name this
bug Taksika, and he put him on his neck saying, if he bites then I have been bitten by
Taksika then the curse will be maintained. But he didn’t know that it actually was Taksika.
So then Taksika took his form and then that was the end of Pariksit Maharaja.
But during that time he was just in his palace staying away from the snake worried about
the snake. But in this situation then we see that wasn’t what was going on. Pariksit
Maharaja in this millennium then he wasn’t worried about the snake. So he went down to
the Ganga with all the sages and just heard about Srimad-Bhagavatam.
So that’s not the position. Means one’s body does not belong to us, so one is careful
about it. Because one is not fearful that doesn’t mean one is stupid. This modern concept
that, ok, one finds out one is going to die and has a terminal disease, so now do all crazy
things, to bungee dive out of buildings, all these different kinds of things that just could be
very dangerous, because your point is, ok, if I die now it doesn’t matter, because I only have
three months to live anyway, so it’s just a matter of one month or two months. But the point
is, it’s the same point. But that’s out of foolishness one is trying to enjoy. But if the body is to
be engaged in the Lord’s service then one is engaging it, so one is taking care of it.
Something that is being used you have respect for, you care for. So this means the person
actually has no respect for their body. So it’s not actually the right mentality.
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So here is the principle of, oh, it’s not that much time so it doesn’t matter. That still
remains. I think it was Ramesvara they were in, not sure what year, maybe ’75 or something,
there was discussion about a nuclear war, because at that time I forget what was the
situation, but they were worried that there’d be a nuclear war. And so they were discussing
so many different things about where to be, where to get far, where they’d be out of the way,
and then you have the problem that the nuclear fall out comes and the top two layers of two
feet dirt you have to take off, like this they go on and on, this is during the Gaura-purnima
festival and discussing it with Prabhupada. And Prabhupada’s point is, what do you care if
you die 20 years earlier? Ok, you should have lived to 80, you have to 60, what’s the big deal?
So he just put it aside, means if it’s going to happen it will happen, if it’s not going to happen
it won’t happen. So if one is supposed to die one will, and if one is not supposed to die one
won’t. So that’s what Vaisnava dasa is mentioning here.
So one is not foolish, because then you think you are in control. It’s a matter of I am not
in control, so I take care. He comes out, if the snake comes in, then he takes care. But if the
snake is outside, snakes are always looking for things. Frogs go everywhere, so they go
looking for them. So Vaisnava dasa’s point is it doesn’t matter. They are not foolish, it’s with
intelligence that they understand this principle. But they don’t court death, they don’t go up
and it doesn’t matter, oh, Krsna wants to protect me then no one can kill me, and go up and
harass the snake. No. That means you think you are the controller, rather than Krsna.
In other words, one doesn’t worry about it, but one is careful about it, because the body
has to be taken care of so that one can render service. But the point is we take our normal
care and then if it works, nice, if it doesn’t work that’s the way it is. But we don’t sit around
worrying about it being in anxiety about it, because that time spent worrying about death is
wasted, because death will come whenever it comes anyway. So whether you worry about it
or not it will still come at the same time. So why worry about it?
So here he is being made the point, the sages go out in the forest because they are
actually more worried about a materialistic person than about a snake. So they would rather
be out in the forest with wild animals than be in the city with materialistic persons. It’s said
if you are caught in a cage with a gross materialist or a snake, kill the materialist first. And if
you are from India, then that’s more specifically Sindhis. You are caught in a place with a
Sindhi or a snake, kill the Sindhi first.
The saintly babaji then said, “When Bhakti-devi (the goddess of devotional service)
appears in someone’s heart, that heart naturally becomes exalted. The whole world loves
such a person. Saints and ruffians alike, everyone loves a devotee of the Lord. Therefore
every human being should become a Vaisnava.”
In other words, if one wants to create an environment where everyone is satisfied,
everyone works together, everyone is comfortable, it’s not by everybody being politically
correct, it’s by everyone becoming a devotee. Because political correctness, the point is
because it’s political one always has to remember, just because you put correctness there
somehow or another euphemizes the term political. If we say that guy is political, then it’s
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taken as a pejorative. You think badly about him, but if I say he is politically correct, then
oh, oh, he is very special and very nice.
But political correctness means whatever politics are going on now that are proved of by
either by a greater mass of people, or the particular group of people that you want to please,
then that’s politically correct. It’s still political, it’s still 100% political. So that won’t make
everything nice. Things only become nice because one is a devotee.
Because the point is, a devotee is dear to the Lord, the Lord is everything, therefore the
Vaisnava is naturally dear to everyone. It is just like, if you have a tree, and if there is
something that the root of the tree likes, like water, then the leaves will be happy with that
also. So that’s the point, one is connected to the Lord, then everybody, because they are also
connected with the Lord knowingly or unknowingly, they are also satisfied. Therefore he
said saints and ruffians alike.
Sanatana Goswami was like that. So he in Vrndavana, then all the different
personalities that are there whether they were saintly persons, common persons, or even
ruffians, they would all come to him for advice. And they were respecting him so much that
when Sanatana Goswami left, then hundreds of people shaved their heads in mourning
seeing him like a father. And all classes of men, it wasn’t just only the saintly people liked
him. Everybody liked him. That’s devotee.
Hearing this, Lahiri Mahasaya said, “You have given me great faith in the eternal
religion. The Vaisnava religion is very close to the eternal religion. That is my belief. I am
not convinced that the Vaisnava religion is completely identical with the eternal religion.
Therefore I ask you to tell me what you think of all this.
In other words, eternal religion means those principles that are always there, they never
change, they are not adjusted for the conditioned nature of the living entity, they’ll always
be there. So he is thinking the Vaisnava religion is very close to this, but it’s not exactly
this. So now Babaji Maharaja will now explain how it is connected.
Vaisnava dasa babaji then said:
“In this material world two different religions are called by the name the Vaisnava
religion. One is the pure Vaisnava religion and the other is the contaminated Vaisnava
religion. The pure Vaisnava religion is one, although it is divided into four according to the
different rasas. Thus there is the Vaisnava religion in servitorship (dasya), a Vaisnava
religion in friendship (sakhya), a Vaisnava religion in parental love (vatsalya), and a
Vaisnava religion in conjugal love (madhurya). Still, the pure Vaisnava religion is one. It is
not many. ‘The eternal religion’ and ‘the transcendental religion’ are merely other names
for the Vaisnava religion. The Sruti sastra declares:
“By understanding the Supreme, one comes to understand everything.”
“These words refer to the Vaisnava religion. This truth will gradually be revealed to you.
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So here we are talking about the supreme, because we are talking about what is the end,
the ultimate. So whether you are being specific or generic you are still dealing with the
supreme. Just like you say, in the country the president is the supreme, or the prime minister
is the supreme, but you don’t really know anything about the president. You don’t know who
he is, or what his name is, what he looks like, what he does, what he likes to do for
recreation, how he dresses. You don’t know any of that, but still whether you know that or
not the principle of the president is the top remains. So the same when you are dealing with
the supreme it doesn’t matter if you know the details about the personality or not, you are
still dealing with the same entity. So that’s important. So that’s why he is saying, sruti-
sastras are saying like this because then everybody can be caught. Because if you say the
supreme, everybody is interested. Means everyone coming from God naturally everybody
should be interested in God. But just a matter of their own conditioning then they may
come up with different ideas. Therefore as it will be revealed, you come up with different
religions.
But within the Vaisnava you are dealing with the supreme, the difference is the same
person it’s just a matter of what is the relationship with Him. So he gave the four rasas, that
these are the four kinds of religion, because religion means inherent nature. So the inherent
nature is, you want to serve God in servitorship, so that defines that. You want to serve God
in friendship, you want to serve God in parental love, or in conjugal love. That’s why it can
be said it’s a religion, because that’s the nature of the soul. The soul wants to serve in this
way, that’s their position. But it’s simply one religion meaning love for God, expressing one’s
love for God. That’s the principle.
“The contaminated Vaisnava religion is of two kinds: 1. Vaisnava religion contaminated
by fruitive work (karma) and 2. Vaisnava religion contaminated by the impersonalist fallacy
(jnana). The activities of the Vaisnava religion as conceived by the smarta panditas are the
Vaisnava religion contaminated by fruitive work. Although it includes initiation in
chanting a Visnu-mantra, this conception of the Vaisnava religion belittles the all-
pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead and makes Him subordinate to fruitive work.
According to these people, even though He is the master of all the demigods, Lord Visnu is
merely a part of the process of karma and is Himself subject to the laws of karma. Thus
karma is not subordinate to the will of Visnu, but Visnu is subordinate to the will of karma.
According to them all worship and spiritual practices are merely various aspects of fruitive
work, and therefore nothing is higher than fruitive work. This form of Vaisnava religion
according to the conception of the mimamsaka philosophers has existed for many days. In
India many follow this idea, and they claims to be Vaisnavas. They do not accept the pure
Vaisnavas to be Vaisnavas at all. Such is the misfortune of the followers of the mimamsaka.
So here he is giving material contaminated and then real. So real means its goal is those
four, means developing pure love for Krsna in one of these four relationships. And when we
say Krsna here we mean Krsna or any of His expansion, so it could be Visnu or Anybody. So
as you move down, of course, then the number of rasas available becomes restricted. So in
this case then if you are dealing with Krsna then all four are available.
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So now the smartas they follow the scriptures, they worship the Lord, the worship
Visnu, they have something very popular, it is called Satya-Narayana puja, they are always
doing this. You see many times where this picture, you may have seen it one of these Hindu
pictures, there is a priest there, husband and wife are sitting down at the lotus feet of the
deity, Lord Visnu is there standing on His lotus, and they are doing their puja, and everyone
is smiling and very happy and so many festive things around and other people. So this is
Satya-Narayana puja. So they are seeing the Lord actually just as a manifestation of
goodness. He may be the supreme manifestation of goodness, but that’s all the further they
understand. They don’t actually understand transcendence. They’ll say He is the Supreme
Lord, He is transcendental, this that bla, but He is actually under the control of karma.
Because the mimamsaka performs his ritual and by the power of the mantra of that ritual, he
feels therefore he is controlling and will get his result. And therefore God has to supply that
result according to the work you do. Does that make sense? It doesn’t make sense, of course,
but that’s how they think. So they actually then, karma becomes the main element, not the
Supreme Lord, not the demigods, not anything else, but it’s their performance of ritual, their
chanting of the mantra. So they feel that by them chanting the mantra and performing the
ritual that they must get the result, they will get the result, and it’s actually the potency is in
their chanting of the mantra. So by performance of the ritual in combination with the
chanting of the mantra that vibration then adjusts the material energy so that it delivers
that result.
So then ultimately who does that establish as supreme? Themselves. So it’s not actually
real Vaisnava religion. But unfortunately, because they follow the Vedas very, very nicely,
very strictly, all the little, little details that they do from karma-kanda, of course, they are
not worred about other branches, but from the karma-kanda. So they think that the
Vaisnavas aren’t actually Vaisnavas because they don’t so strictly follow all those rules.
Because the Vaisnavas’ main emphasis isn’t the Vedic. Vedic is the cultural environment
that one is using, but their main focus is on the Bhagavata, on the transcendental. And then
after that then Pancaratra. Then Pancaratra is supported by the Vedic.
In other words, the Bhagavata is complete focus on the Supreme Lord, but not based on
ritual, based on the natural spontaneous love. That natural spontaneous love isn’t manifest
then one follows the rules and regulations of the Pancaratra, it’s focused exclusively on the
Supreme Lord, not anything else. So that means the Lord and all His manifestations, so the
Lord, the spiritual world, the material world, the living entities. That’s why Kapila Muni
says in Third Canto Bhagavatam if you are worshiping the deity but you are not being nice
to all the other living entities, then the worship is not actually complete, because if you are
worshiping the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Lord includes everything. But you are thinking
it’s just me and the Lord. I do my puja and that’s the transcendental, everything else is not.
So that’s a problem. So we don’t deal with the other living entities properly. That’s
considered very neophyte. The pancaratrika process is supposed to bring the neophyte up to
the madhyama platform into the uttama platform. They are not supposed to remain in that
beginning platform, in the neophyte platform.
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So then the Vedic is to support that endeavor in the pancaratrika that for ourselves is
not specifically directly in connection with the deity. Going out you have your job, make
your money, so you can take care of your family. That’s not directly connected to the Lord.
You yourself you try to connect directly, your family, your activities with the family, but the
facility for that that is not directly. So then that will be controlled by varnasrama, by the
Vedic. So if that’s done in connection with the Lord, then it stays within the true Vaisnava
religion. But if it’s not, that takes prominence, then it changes, then it becomes mundane,
then it becomes karma. Influenced by karma to the point that it’s not technically within the
proper situation, as he mentioned pure and the other is contaminated. So it’s contaminated
by the varnasrama because that becomes the prominent element, that becomes the driving
force and the ultimate goal, not the Supreme Lord. True Vaisnava means the Supreme Lord
is the supreme goal, not something else.
Vaisnava religion contaminated by impersonal philosophy is also prevalent in India.
According to the impersonalists, in order to attain the qualityless impersonal Brahman one
should worship Surya, Ganesa, Sakti, Siva or Visnu. Then, when one attains perfect
knowledge, he can discard the form that he had worshipped. Then, at the end, he attains
the qualityless impersonal Brahman. Accepting these ideas, many persons dishonor the pure
Vaisnava religion. The worship of Lord Visnu is included in the impersonalists worship of
five Deities (Surya, Ganesa, Sakti, Siva or Visnu as described above), and that worship
includes initiation, Deity worship, and the other aspects of devotion to Lord Visnu.
Sometimes it may even include the worship of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. Still, this is not the pure
Vaisnava religion.
So this is also just as, it’s probably more popular in India this aspect than is smartas,
because smartas means you actually have to be brahminical and you have to follow all the
Vedic rules. So there are lots of smarta brahmanas, but it’s limited because you actually have
to be very qualified materially, qualities and everything. But for the impersonal you don’t
have to be as much, because the religion you are dealing with is much, much simplified, is
very, very simple, because their purpose is not the ritual. The smartas the ritual is what gets
their work done. But for the impersonalists the ritual is only there as a medium to get to the
point of no ritual. It’s the ritual of no ritual. It’s like the Chinese, the gate of no gate, that
kind of stuff. You are trying to use the ritual to get to a particular platform, and once you
have gotten there you discard the ritual. That’s the idea.
The mistake they are making is if they are worshiping Visnu, or worshiping the deity,
then they are coming to the point that the deity is not important. So they are taking that
there is no transcendental element there. So now this is the question. How could you use
something to get you to an ultimate goal if it has no connection with that ultimate goal? It’s
against logic.
Because logic means A=B, B=C, therefore A=C. I see the mountain and I see smoke, so
the mountain and the smoke are connected. That’s obvious. But now smoke is connected to
fire. Because if there is smoke there should be fire. You can have fire with no smoke, but
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smoke will always have fire. Therefore if there is smoke, there is fire. So A mountain, B
smoke. A and B are connected. B is connected to fire, that’s C. So B and C are connected.
And because B is connected to A and to C, I can say there is fire on the mountain, A is
connected to C. That’s logic, that’s how nyaya works, everybody accepts it. Sankara accepts
it, all the Vaisnava acarayas accept it, anybody else accepts it, it’s just standard, it’s one of
the fourteen branches of Vedic knowledge. No one disregards nyaya.
Now you are saying that I as a worshiper I am connecting to in this case Visnu, and so
there is connection with A and B. And by worshiping Visnu I will come to the point where I
can disregard Visnu and then I will be connected to the Supreme Brahman, which is C. But
we made no connection between Visnu and Brahman. And so therefore how will there be a
connection between us and Brahman? We are saying A is connected to B, but B is not
connected to C, and from following that process A is going to connect to C. So it’s faulty.
I’d be like saying I want to make a nice for someone’s birthday and then I go out in the
backyard and dig up some bricks and old shoe and something like that. There is no
connection. But I say by doing this somehow or another then I’ll be able to discard these
elements because they are not of much use, obvious to make a cake. And then suddenly I’ll
have this cake. It’s a logical fallacy. But because it sounds good, everybody likes it. It sounds
great.
It’s like a bunch of guys sitting down at the pub, and while they are at the pub they are
all thinking about, yeah, women should be like this, should be like that, and they all agree.
And you can go to any pub in any country of the world and all the men are thinking the
same thing, this is how women should be. But the problem is, women aren’t like that. So it
doesn’t work. So it’s a fallacy. But it is popular. There are three billion idiots who think this
is very good idea. But it doesn’t make it truth. This is the problem with it.
So therefore they start off worshiping and then they reject. But if there is nothing
transcendental about that worship, why would it give a transcendental result? Manu
mentions, an action on the physical platform will give you a reaction or result on the
physical platform. An action on the verbal platform will give you a reaction on the verbal
platform. An action on the mental platform will give a reaction on the mental platform. It is
very specific. So therefore it’s not logical. It’s not logical that you are working with
something that has nothing to do with what you are trying to obtain.
Otherwise why Surya, Ganesa, Sakti, Siva, or Visnu? Why not your vacuum cleaner or
your toaster? You probably get more out of your toaster than some of this other worship. You
can depend upon it. You put in your toast, you push the button, and you are guaranteed you
are going to get some toast out, at least most of the time. Why not that? It could be anything.
And how does that connect with the other thing? It’s not logical.
So that’s the problem here, it can’t be real, because it’s not actually about worship of
Visnu. Because Visnu is transcendental and the worship of Him is transcendental, therefore
you are situated transcendentally. That’s the point. But if you are doing mundane worship,
why would mundane worship get you transcendence? Because if it does, then what’s the
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problem in dealing with illusion? Because whatever I do I deal with illusion, it will get me to
the Brahman platform. So why would the impersonalists insist that you have to give up the
illusion? Because their process of worship is engaging illusion, and somehow or another by
working with illusion I’ll come to the transcendental platform. So one side they say illusion
is bad, and the other side they say it’s a great medium for becoming transcendental. So all
they are doing is picking and choosing amongst illusion, oh, this part of illusion is better
than that part of illusion, but illusion is illusion.
It’s like the two guys out in the desert, they are seeing a mirage, and one guy is talking
about how the coconut tree part of the mirage is better than the pond part of the mirage.
But the other guy insists, no, the pond is better, because it’s hot and he’d like to sit in the
pond and cool off, plus he can drink. But the other guy thinks, yeah, cool or not cool, but if
you are starving to death that’s another thing, plus the coconut has water, so I’ll get my
water and something to eat. So they are arguing over which part of the illusion is better.
So it doesn’t make sense. If illusion is illusion, it doesn’t exist, means anything done
within it also can give you no benefit other than illusion. It is the saying, money comes from
old shoes. No, money generates money. So what you put in gets it, you put yoghurt in milk
you get yoghurt. You don’t get a Swiss cheese sandwich or something, though it may be
popular.
Devotee (1): Maharaja, I was wondering if you could give an example of reaction on the
mental platform?
Maharaja: Reaction on the mental platform, how vivid do you want this? Means it’s just like
if in the mind you think badly about people, then you are going to get a reaction that within
your mind it becomes contaminated towards people. So you are not going to feel properly
towards people. You think badly about authority, therefore anybody in an authority position
makes you feel bad. So that would be a lighter of them.
Devotee (2): A question, you mentioned that we should not dwell on the…that we’ll die,
because we’ll die anyway and when it will happen it will happen. My question is I have the
experience that as a materialist it is very beneficial to dwell on the… that I will die because
then the material attachment get away.
Maharaja: As a materialist?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Maharaja: That’s a new angle. Generally materialists that I have ever seen they don’t like to
talk about death, it’s one of the…topics.
Devotee (2): Because it removes their attachment…
Maharaja: And since when does the materialist want to remove his attachment? That’s his
driving force. I mean schools of materialistic thought work very hard to create attachment,
because only with attachment do you work. Means they don’t say attachment, they say goal-
oriented. So until you are goal-oriented you don’t work. So why would as a materialist why
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would you say you like to dwell on death because it gets rid of attachments, because
materialists aren’t interested in that at all.
Means in other words, a parent only takes of their kids because of attachment, not
because of any duty that they feel. If someone is trained there is a concept of duty, therefore
they are taking care of their kid with a combination of duty and attachment. So their initial
motive is that, but the quality of their interaction with the kid is going to be based on duty,
not on whether I feel more attached today or not.
Devotee (2): Again, more simple, much more simple, you are speaking too complicated, I
have trouble understanding what you are saying.
Maharaja: See, at this point this wouldn’t be a good time to go into this, because it’s not
actually connected.
Now the question is do we understand about, the point is on contemplating death that is
for someone who is trying to get beyond the material. So it’s not for the materialist. It’s for
someone who is interested in going beyond materialism. For them then contemplating that,
but that’s contemplating the principle of death, not worried about I am going to die, because
the soul never dies. So one is not going to die, the body is going to, but because we identify
with the body, then we feel I am going to die.
The pure Vaisnava religion is different from these kinds of contaminated Vaisnava
religion. It is the true Vaisnava religion. Because of the defects of Kali-yuga, many people do
not understand what is the pure Vaisnava religion. They think these varieties of
contaminated Vaisnava religion are the true Vaisnava religion.
Like you go to Hindus’ houses, most of them, not all of them, but most of them will all
have pictures of Krsna, Rama and Visnu, but at the same time, also Ganesa, Siva, and Sakti
and everybody else. So they don’t want to miss out.
Prabhupada told a story, there is one man on his altar, he has got a million pictures, but
he also had a picture of Hitler, and someone asked, why do you have a picture of Hitler? He
says, because of this man there is the war, and because of the war my business is going so
good. So therefore he was worshiping him as the reason that his. That’s Hindu, that’s a true
Hindu. Not true Vaisnava, but true Hindu.
So the thing is here is being brought out, but you ask all of them they’ll say karma is
important and it’s through doing your good work you’ll get all benefit, at the same time, if
you ask them about the supreme, they’ll say it’s impersonal. So it’s kind of like they all have
this combination of this karma and jnana as a contamination in their worship. And they’ll
say that they are following sanatana-dharma, the eternal religion.
So that’s why it’s mentioned, why would it come up, because in India you get a crowd of
Hindus together and if you want to say one thing that you know all of them will agree with,
I mean other than Bharata mata ki jaya, you say sanatana-dharma ki jaya, they’ll all agree,
every Hindu, because they are connected to the Vedas and the Vedas are eternal, so they
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feel they are connected with the eternal religion. But they don’t quite understand how that
connection really works.
So therefore they think it’s eternal and we can make the mistake of also
overemphasizing other things and not understanding, because we say, varnasrama and
dharma are the same, and we’ll also varnasrama and sanatana-dharma are the same, so how
do we mean this? We mean this in pursuance of service of Visnu that one is engaging
varnasrama as a medium for us to serve Him, then it’s sanatana-dharma. We are not talking
about the smartas. We are not talking about other forms of varnasrama.
The worshippers of the Paramatma (Supersoul), who wish to meet the Supersoul, desire
to enter a mystic trance and there meet the Supersoul, they engage in kriya-yoga, karma-
yoga, or astanga-yoga. According to these people, initiation into chanting Visnu mantras,
worship of Lord Visnu, meditating on Lord Visnu, and other kinds of devotional service, are
all various aspects of karma-yoga. Among these people, Vaisnava religion contaminated by
fruitive work is manifested.
In other words, yoga sometimes we mention karma, jnana, and yoga. But most of the
time we just say karma and jnana, because yoga technically is part of karma. It’s just a little
bit more, in other words, meditation is the main ritual of it, rather than an external
observable ritual. But otherwise it’s the same thing. Because you think, I will do this work
therefore I will get this result. The point is here, they want to see the Supersoul. Ok, so they
perform an activity by which they see the Supersoul. But one can say, what’s wrong with
that? But the point is, what has it got to do with the Supersoul?
You perform an action, you push your way through the crowd, you get right up to the
front, so you can see the prime minister. But does that mean you have a relationship with
the prime minister just because you saw him? You made the endeavor, you got there. So all it
is is seeing the prime minister is your goal. But to have a relationship with the prime
minister, to express that natural love that’s there, that’s not your purpose.
So in the same way, to see the Paramatma just to see Him, then what’s that got to do
with love? If it’s based on love and one uses the astanga-yoga system, ok, that’s fine. But as
Arjuna said it’s not recommended in this age, it’s too difficult. Satya-yuga was the age for
using meditation to come to be able to see the Lord and take up devotional service. But then
it took a little longer, the time was a bit more than we would have these days.
Srimad-Bhagavatam explains that the most fortunate persons are attracted to pure
devotional service, service to the pure form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such
persons engage in Deity worship and the other activities of devotional service. These
activities of devotional service are not subordinate aspects of kriya-yoga, karma yoga or the
speculations of the impersonalists. Rather, they are aspects of pure devotional service. These
activities are the pure Vaisnava religion.
Notice that in this description we have not touched upon the particular or needed to
touch upon the particular activities that are there. Because the point is expression of the
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love. Then there’ll be some detail how that’s done. But you can establish pure religion
without discussing what most people would consider religion.
Now that’s the point, it seems like your Prostetants, your Catholics, they’ll kill each
other. I mean literally kill each other over whether there is the Eucharist, that’s the little,
the eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood, that one. The little wavers and the,
whatever it is that you use, wine or juice. But it’s said to be his body and blood. So it’s just a
kind of a bit of a tamasic aspect of prasada. But somehow or another it’s supposed to be a
little bit more sattvic. But whatever it is, over this one point they actually kill each other
and have been, nowadays they don’t, because now it’s kind moved on more to economics,
the Bourgeois… But otherwise before up to, even not long ago, that was major. Means your
French Revolution, all these different things, were very major things, 100 years of fighting
between these. England fighting over these things. So many people, probably who knows,
tens of thousand, hundreds of thousand, or a million, people lost their lives because of this
argument.
So the point is, is it important to accept the remnants of God and the transcendental
personalities as a means of purification or not? In other words, do we offer everything to the
Lord? So it’s like this, any Christian in any denomination when they sit down at the dinner
table then they are going to thank God for whatever it is is on their table. So now what does
that mean? They are offering things to the Lord first, and by His grace then that’s what they
have to eat. It’s the same principle. But because they don’t understand actually the
principles of religion, then that one everybody accepts, but this other one then they may
accept or may not accept. But the principle is, everything is by the grace of the Lord, that’s
the whole thing.
So this is the problem, they don’t come to the level of actually discussing eternal
religion. They discuss the externals and think that itself is the complete religion. So that’s
the problem. Then therefore you get so much differentiation between different groups, and
they think it’s a different religion. But there is only one religion, that is service to God.
There isn’t something else. Developing love for God, there isn’t something else. Then it’s a
matter of what you emphasize.
So we see here, when these saintly persons are discussing about the Vaisnava religion
and philosophy it does not at this point at least for these first so many chapters, it will never
touch upon these external points. (end of lecture)
Devotee (3): In Satya-yuga…?

Maharaja: There they didn’t even have to deal with secondary aspects of religion,
varnasrama this that they didn’t require, they just directly would worship the Lord.
Meditation is the process, but they were all transcendentally situated, because they were all
hamsas… Means whether they actually accepted Visnu in devotion or whether they didn’t
that is another thing, but they didn’t require secondary aspects.
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Devotee (3): In Treta-yuga?
Maharaja: In Treta-yuga then the secondary aspects…on a very elevated platform. In
Dvapara-yuga it drops… In Kali-yuga it’s…
Devotee (4): The sahajiyas they are contaminated by tama?
Maharaja: They are contaminated by misunderstanding. They think that by doing their
bhajana that’s what’s going to get them their love. Because they chant they are already on
that highest platform, rather than they have to obtain that platform. You could say, it’s
more karma, because it’s more sentimental on it.
Devotee (4): It seems to also some aspects of jnana.
Maharaja: It is always, you never get pure karma or pure jnana. Here in these explanations
this is the maximum as you get, but they don’t have their philosophy, the smarta philosophy.
Karma-mimamsa is quite exacting, it’s so exacting it could defeat all other philosophies
except the Vedanta. So it’s not that they don’t, but the emphasis is on karma, it’s not on
something else. (end)
February 2, 2010
Maharaja: Srimad-Bhagavatam explains that the most fortunate persons are attracted to
pure devotional service, service to the pure form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Such persons engage in Deity worship and the other activities of devotional service. These
activities of devotional service are not subordinate aspects of kriya-yoga, karma yoga or the
speculations of the impersonalists. Rather, they are aspects of pure devotional service. These
activities are the pure Vaisnava religion. Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.1.1) explains:
“Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this non-dual substance
Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan.”
One should see in this way. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is not different
from either the Paramatma or the impersonal Brahman, is the final manifestation of the
Supreme. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Lord Visnu, who is supreme pure.
Individual spirit souls that become His followers are also pure. The activity of such pure
souls is called ‘bhakti’ (devotional service). Hari-bhakti (devotional service to Lord Hari) is
also called by the names suddha-vaisnava-dharma (pure Vaisnava religion), nitya-dharma
(eternal religion), jaiva dharma (duty of individual souls), bhagavata dharma (religion of
worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead), paramartha-dharma (way to attain the
final goal of life), and para-dharma (highest religion). Religions that strive to attain the
Paramatma and the impersonal Brahman are all temporary religions. A material motive
pushes one to seek the impersonal Brahman. Therefore the religion of the impersonal
Brahman is materially motivated and temporary. It is not eternal. The individual soul
trapped in the material world is eager to escape his material bondage. To escape this
material bondage the soul searches for the impersonal Brahman. In this way he takes shelter
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of a religion that is both temporary and materially motivated. Therefore the religion of
seeking the impersonal Brahman is not eternal. Seeking the happiness of rapt meditation
(samadhi), a soul may take shelter of the religion of seeking the Paramatma. Thus, seeking a
more subtle kind of material pleasure, he follows a temporary religion based on a material
motive. Therefore the religion of seeking the Paramatma is not eternal. The religion of
serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead is alone eternal.”
Ok, so then we are establishing that actually someone who is fortunate only is able to
appreciate or take up the devotional process. If there is any other kind of motive, or any
other kind of purpose in one’s life one will be attracted by other aspects, that won’t be the
prominent aspect in the life. So that is due to the living entity, one, doesn’t belong in the
material world. So by being here then the living entity develops the need to get out of the
material world, which is natural. It’s not supposed to be here in the first place. So then
seeking out the impersonal Brahman then they try to elevate oneself from this material
world.
Because the process of removing oneself from the material world, means the mechanical
process, is connecting everything to Brahman. Means if you see the material energy as
separate from the Lord, then you are bound by it. If you see it as non-different from the
Lord, then you are freed from it. Because it’s a, in other words, the material energy is the
place given to those living entities that separate themselves from the Supreme Lord. So then
by connecting everything to the Lord one is freed. But we see here, the motive is to get out
of the material world. It’s not actually to develop a relationship with the Supreme Lord. It’s
not actually trying to develop that relationship. So it’s materially motivated. That makes it
temporary. So the religion, which its end is the impersonal Brahman, is temporary, because
it’s based on one’s own needs, because it won’t last. Even you get out of the material world
you don’t follow the religion any more, therefore it’s temporary. And then of Paramatma, by
meditation on the supreme it’s more subtle, but it also brings about the aspects of more
subtle sense gratification. So it’s still also not about the Lord.
It’s very, very important these things, because these things will apply besides, means, of
course, they are applying on the spiritual platform, but they also have their application on
the material platform. Because here one can say, no, no, but I am interested in the supreme,
I am endeavoring, all day I am thinking about or meditating upon or contemplating the
supreme, therefore I have a relationship. But the point is, no, you are yourself and you are
adding to yourself this other entity. You don’t have a relationship with the other entity,
meaning dynamic interactive. You have a relationship, ok, I am sitting on this chair, ok, so
that’s a relationship. But it’s not a relationship of interaction.
Very, very important, because basically this is one of the major mistakes that people
make also on the social platform. Because they figure because they are thinking about or
working with that they actually have a relationship other than a static relationship. It’s not
dynamic, because you are not relating with the person.
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So you are seeing Brahman everywhere, but it’s not important to you interact with
Brahman. You are seeing Paramatma, but it’s not important to interact with Paramatma on
a devotional level.
The person is there, you make arrangements for them, it’s either their food, their clothes
or this or that. So that’s nice. So in one sense you can think I have a relationship with this
person. In one level you do, but it’s only on the external level. But you as a person to the
other person that relationship you don’t have. Does this make sense? Do you catch what’s
going on here? Because that’s what makes the Paramatma and the Brahman religions
temporary, because you are not actually relating with the person. Bhagavan means you are
relating with the person. That’s what it means. So then that means the other person has to
be taken into consideration, what pleases Bhagavan, how can I do activities that it pleases
Brahman. Otherwise then what’s going to happen, one is seeing Brahman everywhere, but
what are you doing to please Brahman? Are you doing anything for Brahman’s pleasure? No,
you are endeavoring to be Brahman conscious, or to that Brahman platform, so that you get
the happiness of not being in material consciousness. Who experiences the brahmananda?
It’s you. There is no even discussion of brahmananda and Brahman is happy. Paramatma
also, you are meditating on Paramatma, but what are we doing to please Paramatma? One
can think, no, but I am thinking of the Lord, I am looking at the Lord. That’s alright, but is
there an interaction?
There is a guy sitting somewhere and he sees a nice-looking girl, and he is starring at her
and he is very absorbed in looking at her. Is the girl comfortable? Is the girl satisfied? Is there
a relationship there? No. So why would it be any different in meditating on Paramatma?
So that means that devotional service it’s beyond all this kriya-yoga, karma-yoga, jnana-
yoga, all these different aspects, it’s not subservient to it, these can be portions of devotional
service, but they can also be used and not be part of devotional service. Because the point is,
Krsna consciousness, so if you are not conscious, then how is it connected? One is doing
one’s yogasanas, but if you are not conscious of how this connects to the Lord, how is it
connected? Ok, it’s sattvic lifestyle, it’s something there that’s given in the scriptures, many
people have done these things. But how does it become God conscious? One is fired up,
Ayurveda, adjusting the diet this way and that way, this season eating this that season
eating that. Ok, nice, it’s from the scriptures, it’s pious, but what has it got to do with God
consciousness? Because if you are not conscious of God, how is it God consciousness? That’s
the point.
So what’s being brought out, you are conscious of God. That’s why the society is called
international society for God consciousness. So that’s the beginning, if you are God
conscious, then you can be conscious of how to please God, how to interact with God, how
to have a relationship. If you are not conscious, how do you have a relationship? Have you
ever had a relationship with someone that you don’t even recognize is there?
Devotee (1): What is if pujari, puja, worshiping, he can be not for Krsna consciousness?
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Maharaja: He can be not Krsna conscious, yes. The point is because he is doing service for
the deity, he is doing service there, he is doing something, he is paying attention to his
service, he is trying to do it nicely. So there will be benefit. But there won’t be as much
benefit if he actually is thinking that I am doing this for Krsna. If it’s just a matter of it’s the
ritual this and that, then that’s nice, it’s pleasing in that way, but it will tend more towards
having more of a ritualistic content, so you get the element of the peity or this or that from
it. So you just have to see what are they conscious of, what is their reason for doing it.
Because somebody may be dressing the deity, because then when the curtains open then
all the other ladies will go, uh, that looks so nice, and then the lady who dressed the deities
will feel so good that, yes, see, I am the best dresser. That can be there. But she has dressed
Krsna, so she is going to get benefit for that. One may say why she should get benefit, but
the point is, Krsna is intelligent, He can discriminate between all these things.
Just like Putana, Putana is offering her breast milk, so that means mother offers breast
milk. So she gets the benefit of that. But at the same time, because she was doing it to kill
Krsna, then that she doesn’t get so much benefit for. So then she is killed for that, but
because she is killed by the supreme, she is purified. So then she obtains that standard of
being a mother of Krsna. Because offering the breast milk is favorable, even though the
consciousness wasn’t there, but the service was favorable. It was favorable, but it was not
free from karma and jnana. In other words, she was conscious, she was conscious of God, it
was favorable to God, but it was completely contaminated by karma. Therefore that aspect
she doesn’t get benefit, but the other part she does.
So the person is doing, so as long as they are doing service that is favorable, so they are
making an offering, they are dressing, they are cleaning the deity room, whatever they, it’s
favorable to Krsna, so that aspect is. They may not be conscious, or they may be conscious
and then there is karma and jnana mixed, so it’s not pure devotional service. But it’s still
devotional service, they’ll get benefit. So for how much is there that much you get benefit.
So Rupa Goswami is saying, one, consciousness, two, that consciousness is God, then
three, it’s favorable to God, four, it’s free from karma and jnana. So when all four are in
place that’s called pure devotional service. If all four aren’t in place, then it will have some
mix. Now if that mix is still its purpose or ultimate goal is Krsna to please him, it’s still
counted in the progess of devotional service. It’s not considered contaminated devotional
service, meaning that it’s not actually real devotional service. Like the smartas or the
impersonalists, they are also worshiping the Lord. But they the Lord, that worship, as part of
their own process for another end. So that’s not actually devotional service. But here it’s
proper devotional service, it’s just not pure. So by practice and by good association then one
can bring that up to the standard. So that’s there.
And then what’s coming out in here, the element of the worshiping as an end, or only
exclusively seeing Brahman or Paramatma that is temporary. These are religions of the
material world, even though they are transcendental. Some devotees get confused on this.
But this is mentiond in Second Canto of Bhagavatam, that the worship of Paramatma and
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worship of the Brahman is temporary religion, it is a religion of this world, because it is
materially motivated. Because it’s mentioned here, the real thing is the Lord is non-dual.
There is no difference between Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. So if you are seeing
the Lord through the Brahman aspect you can also see Paramatma and Bhagavan. If you are
looking at the Paramatma aspect you can also see the other two. But if you are looking at
Bhagavan you can see the other two, but as far as rasa goes it’s not important.
Devotee (2): You were saying…practicing in association.
Maharaja: Practicing in association.
Devotee (2): What does that mean?
Maharaja: What does it mean practiced in association?
Devotee (2): For developing pure devotional service.
Maharaja: Pure devotional service, means if you are in the association of devotees then
hearing from them and taking their example then we learn what is actual proper devotional
service. Otherwise we’ll have a tendency to do whatever we do.
So practice means one has a proper understanding, one tries to apply it, and it may work
nicely, it may not work nicely, but you keep at it with the same understanding, then slowly
slowly, gradually gradually it will become situated.
Hearing these words, Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Please describe to me the pure Vaisnava
religion. I am advanced in years. I take shelter of your feet. Please be merciful and accept
me. I have heard it said that a person previously initiated and instructed by an unworthy
person should find a worthy teacher and accept initiation and instruction from him. For
some days I have heard your good instructions and now I have faith in the Vaisnava
religion. Please be merciful. Teach me the Vaisnava religion and, when your teaching is
concluded, initiate me and purify me.
A little embarrassed, the saintly babaji said, “Saintly brother, I will teach you as far as I
am able, but I am not qualified to be an initiating spiritual master. However that may be, you
should now learn about the pure Vaisnava religion.
So here in this the element is, so Lahiri Mahasaya, Bengali gentleman and so it’s very
standard the element of being involved in the Vedic culture, having some variety of
spiritual master, family guru.
The other day I was talking with this, like there is they are making this new road out
there, so I was walking down the road and this one Bengali gentleman walking the other way
and then he stopped and he looks not so much like a tourist, so I asked him something, and
so he is the guy it’s his company that’s building the road, and so he starts talking about the
temporary material world and how when the child is in the womb then he is crying, but
when he comes out then everybody is nice to him and then he becomes attached to the
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material world and then this way he becomes distracted and caught up in samsara, and every
evening in his house they are reading from Ramayana or Mahabharata or things like this.
So here is like this they grow up in this pious environment actually following the Vedic
culture, but their teacher is not someone who is teaching them in pure devotional service.
So as far as doing the family samskaras and those kind of, that’s fine, they are bona fide for
that. But as far as actually teaching in the pure Vaisnava religion that they don’t know. So
then in that case if one has had such a spiritual master, when one takes shelter of one who is
in that pure devotional line. That doesn’t mean going from one person in the pure
devotional line to another person, no, this means that outside the system of pure devotional
service then taking shelter of one who is within the system.
So here he is saying he can instruct him as a siksa-guru, but he feels so unqualified as a
diksa-guru. But in any case he says whatever the situation he’ll hear about pure devotional
service.
“Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is the original spiritual master of the entire
world, teaches that there are three basic truths in the Vaisnava religion. They are: 1.
sambandha (the relationship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual
soul), 2. abhidheya (the activities in that relationship), and 3. prayojana (the final goal,
which is pure love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead). One who understands these
three truths can act properly. He is a pure Vaisnava, or a pure devotee of the Lord.
So now he’s started on this discussion. So the first thing he establishes in discussing the
pure Vaisnava religion is sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana – relationship, process, and
result. Everything is based on these. So he is saying, Lord Caitanya is teaching these. Then
within that, these are expanded, you get the dasa-mula, you get the ten esoteric truths. The
principle, this is the basis. So all philosophy if you can bring it back to this, you can
understand what part, or which aspect, or which combination of the aspects of sambandha,
abhidheya, and prayojana… So everything has to come back to here. This is the basis of the
philosophy.
So this technical way of seeing the philosophy like this then means you’ll be able to
establish what is there, what’s not there. Someone is speaking some philosophy you can
understand where is the weakness, is it in sambandha, is it in abhidheya, or prayojana? Then
you can see what’s missing, what’s lacking, or what its strengths are. Because the thing is, if
something is improper, you have to know how it’s improper. That’s the thing. Just saying it’s
improper is not good enough. Ok, it’s a beginning stage, great. So there is at least a
distinguishing between what’s favorable and what’s not. But you should be able to exactly
say what is favorable and what is not.
Otherwise the element of taking gold from a dirty place won’t happen. Because you say
it’s dirty and throw the whole thing out. No, you want to get rid of the dirt, keep the gold.
So that will happen when one understands sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana.
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“Within sambandha are three distinct truths: 1. the material world, or the illusory
potency maya, 2. the individual soul, or the subordinate living entity, and 3. the Supreme
Personality of Godhead, who is one and unrivaled, the master of all powers, all attractive,
the abode of all opulence and sweetness, and the only shelter of both the individual spirit
souls and the illusory potency maya. Although He is the only shelter of both the individual
spirit souls and the illusory potency maya, He is always supremely independent, and His
transcendental form is both sublimely handsome and eternal.
So then within sambandha you have the material world, the Supreme Lord, and the
living entity, means much of the time they are referred to in philosophical circles as cit, acit,
and isvara. So cit means the soul, means it’s conscious. Acit means what is unconscious, the
material world. And isvara which is the controller of both. So that’s been established. This is
understood then you actually understand sambandha. If you are only dealing with the soul
and God, and not the material world, something will be lacking, because the soul is in the
material world. If you are leaving out the Lord, you are leaving out the living entity, like
many will say, the individual living entity is coming from the material energy. So that
technically means the living entity it’s the relationship is wrong, because then you are
making the material world as the controller of the living entity. So there is going to be a
problem in this. Or if you say that the living entity is expanded as a portion of Brahman, it’s
been covered by illusion, then you run into a similar problem, because you are not seeing
Brahman in connection with the supreme person. So that their individuality is there, they
don’t technically exist. So all there is is the Supreme Lord. Material nature doesn’t actually
exist, it’s illusion. The living entities don’t exist, that’s an illusion. Or the living entities
come from the material energy and therefore consciousness is generated by dead matter, and
life is generated by dead matter. So this is a problem, because we don’t see anywhere where
matter produces life. Life comes from life.
So if the sambandha is not correct, one will not be actually properly philosophically
situated. So by this understanding you can understand what’s right and what’s not, by their
definition of God, the living entity, the material nature, and their relationship. Because
most, if you want to discuss religion or philosophy with most religionists of the world, these
will not be the topics. These will not be the topics. They will just bypass this and go straight
into the process. You are just supposed to surrender, have faith. There is no particular goal,
they don’t know who they are or who they are working with, but you are supposed to have
faith and surrender. So that’s not intelligence. That’s blind faith. If it’s based on sambandha,
that’s intelligence, that’s not blind. Having faith then is the natural next step of the proper
intellectual analyzation.
And we also notice that even though they establish God as the supreme, they also bring
out the activities of how attractive He is, how nice He is, because He is a person. So if you
just bring out only He is the Supreme, He knows all, sees all, all that kind of things, then its
relationship is in one way. It will be rules by that awe and reverence, controlled by the
manifestation of rituals, all this and that. But if it’s a matter of He is a nice person, He is
attractive, then it becomes more close, more intimate. So then these higher rasas are
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available, friendship, parental, and conjugal, because they go beyond that. So it’s mentioned
in here because it’s true, but at the same time, we see after mentioning all these things the
final point that he makes, He is… supremely independent, and His transcendental form is both
sublimely handsome and eternal.
So here the independent being in this context is, one, is, of course, independent of
everything, but independent meaning in relationship He is independent. Because the point
is, if the supreme is dependent then our relationship with Him can be compromised. We are
dependent, so we have to be connected with the supreme. So if He is independent that
means He is always able to stand on His own. So our connection with Him as being
dependent can always exist. But if He is dependent, then that means our connection to Him
could be nice means properly connected, or not nice, depending upon how well He is
connected to whatever He is dependent upon. So this is Him being independent in this case
is an element of relationship. Others before that is independent meaning He is the supreme,
He is the original, everything else is coming from Him, He is the controller, that, that being
God, yes, He is independent. But in relationship then this is very important, He is
independent, because that means He always is consistent. Because if you are dependent
means then sometimes you will be dealing in one way, sometimes in another. But if you are
independent then you are actually dependable.
So this is what you are dealing with, all these subtle elements of the personal aspect. The
difficulty in the personal aspect is it takes more intelligence to understand, because you are
having to deal with contradictory elements at one time and having to be able to reconcile
them. Karma is very easy, I do my work I get my result. The impersonal understanding is
very easy, it’s all Brahman and so we just try to get to that platform. But here you are having
to deal with the personal, make the distinction between mundane personal and real
personal, and then within that to be able to deal with these contradictory elements.
Because we think independent then means they are not there because they are
independent, they are off doing something. But that means they are not independent
actually. It’s a kind of independence, but they are actually dependent upon those other
things.
Just like an extrovert, an extrovert appears very independent, they say whatever they
like whenever they like, make a whole scene, keep everybody entertained. But actually they
are dependent upon their external environment. Because without that interaction with that
external environment they are uncomfortable. An introvert is comfortable with themselves.
So anybody is there or not there, they are comfortable. But an extrovert, if people aren’t
there, something is not happening, they have problems.
So here we are not meaning independent and you do your activites, we are meaning
independent as an individual. Means God is independent, He doesn’t actually require
anyone else, He is satisfied. But at the same time, because He is in that position then His
interacting with others doesn’t mean He gives that up, it means He adds to it. So the
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voluntary aspect is there. So this voluntary aspect is what creates love. Therefore also the
jiva that voluntary aspect. So this independence is in connection with the relationship.
The impersonal Brahman effulgence is merely a distant reflection of the splendor of His
limbs. With His potency of transcendental power (aisi sakti) He manifests the material
universes and places the individual souls within them. Then He expands to become the
Supersoul. As the Supersoul He enters the material universes. In this way He is the Supreme
controller. When He manifests His feature of supreme opulence, He is Lord Narayana in the
spiritual sky. When He manifests His feature of supreme sweetness, He is Lord Krsnacandra,
the gopis’ beloved in Goloka Vrndavana. His different forms and pastimes are all limitless
and eternal. No person or thing is His equal. Nothing is superior to Him. All His forms and
pastimes are manifested by his para sakti (transcendental potency).
So the impersonal Brahman is a distant reflection of the splendor of His limbs. In other
words, you see them directly then you are seeing His personal form. When you are only
seeing the opulence itself it doesn’t have as much meaning. Like if we see there is the
principle beauty, but beauty has to be connected to something. It doesn’t stand on its own.
It’s connected to something, then you can appreciate it. It means the concept is there, but
you appreciate when it’s connected to something.
So then the material world one can see it in connection with the things of this world, so
that what we see here is just a partial manifestation of the principle of Krsna’s beauty, or
God’s beauty. But now the full manifestation is God Himself. So that is directly Himself. So
that’s a full manifestation. But what’s here then through His, he mentions here, His para-
sakti and His aisi-sakti, He manifests this world and so then all these different little parts are
there. So it’s a little reflection of a portion of Him, that’s why it’s nice. So one has to be able
to distinguish the difference. But because there is non-difference then one appreciates these
aspects, this Brahman aspect, but one sees it as Parabrahman, it’s the Supreme Lord.
Of His many different transcendental potencies, three are especially known to the
individual souls. One of these potencies is called the cit potency. Employing this potency,
the Supreme Personality of Godhead enjoys all His transcendental pastimes. Another of
these potencies is called the jiva potency or the marginal potency. By this potency limitless
individual souls are manifested and maintained. The third potency is called the maya
potency. By this potency all material things, material time, and material activities are
manifested. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has a relationship with the individual
spirit souls.
So we are also bringing out these different aspects of Godhead here very subtly, the
dasa-mula, which will later on in the chapters as they go, it will become the actual point of
the chapter. But we have established that there is the Supreme Lord, the jiva, and the maya-
sakti, these are part of sambandha, these are three main divisions of sambandha. But then
he is also then pointing out here, within this the Lord has these three potencies because He
is the source. So He is the supreme above anybody, then He is the Lord of all potencies, so
this is being explained here, all these potencies are Him. Then he mentioned before about
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how attractive and everything like that, so he gives a hint of rasa, he doesn’t tell so much
about it. Because within God then there is three aspects: His supremacy, his sweetness and
that relationship, and being the Lord of all potencies.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead has a relationship with the individual spirit souls.
The material energy and the individual spirit souls both have relationships with the
Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual
souls both have relationships with the material energy. These different relationships are
called sambandha. Sambandha is understood when one understands these different
relationships. Without first understanding these relationships it is not possible for anyone to
become a pure Vaisnava.”
Because how would one be pure? Because pure is we are trying to establish that you are
conscious, you are God conscious, it’s favorable to God, and it’s free from karma and jnana.
So if one doesn’t understand sambandha-jnana, how do you know how you are situating
yourself? You are conscious of something, but are you seeing that in connection with God?
So is it God conscious? How do you see the material energy? How do you see other living
entities?
So that’s why we see, Kapila Muni is mentioning about how someone is situated very
nicely in devotional service sees all living entities equally. Because they see all the living
entities are parts and parcels of the Lord. So they are all spiritual living entities, just they
are covered by different kinds of conditioning. But the covering doesn’t make them
different.
Let us say we take ten gold rings, they are exactly made the same. Now we drop one of
them in some mud and put it on the table there, and drop one of them in some green jello
and put it on the table, something else we put in, different things. So they are all dropped in
ten different things. Now when we put it all there and line them all up and we ask you, what
is here? What are you going to say? They are gold rings. But they have different coverings.
So they are all gold rings. So they all have the same quality, same value. But this one
happens to be covered with mud, this one with jello, this one with something else.
So the idea is it’s gold, so you are dealing with it as gold, but at the same time, you are
also addressing the particular covering that it has. So depending upon the covering there is
a way of dealing with it. You want to get rid of the mud, you deal in one way. You want to
get rid of the green jello, there is another way of dealing with it.
You understand what green jello is? No. Don’t worry about it. It’s something it seems to
be a universal principle that all hospitals think it’s what a patient wants to eat. Green jello is
always there. I don’t know if anybody likes green jello, but whatever it is they always have it.
So these coverings, the living entities that you see, it’s the same, but whether they are
covered by a human body or animal or a fish or a tree or a bug, at the same time, within that
what are the particular details, what is the combination of modes. Just like mud, one is
covered in more sandy dirt, one’s more in more clay, so it’s going to be harder to get the clay
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off than the sand. So if somebody is covered more by ignorance, it’s going to be harder than
they are covered by goodness, but the quality is the same. To see different, to see, oh, this is
mud, this is green jello, this is that, that’s the mode of passion. So that’s the problem, we see,
oh, this one is Indian, this one is American, oh, this one is Christian, this one is Jewish, this
one is Moslem, this is mode of passion. That’s why they kill each other. They are fighting
over, oh, you got some mud on my green jello. But the point is the living entities are the
pure soul.
So that’s one aspect of understanding sambandha: maya, you understand what it is, it’s
just dead matter. Anything you are attracted to, anything that makes it work, anything that
gives a result, that’s God, it’s not the dead matter. Dead matter doesn’t do anything,
nothing, it just sits there. So because it is able to be activated, it is able to attract you, it is
able to generate a need in your heart to want to interact with it, that’s God. Because dead
matter can’t do that. That’s the whole point.
So if one doesn’t understand this one doesn’t actually understand the material energy.
So just to say, oh, it’s all maya, that means it’s not that intelligent, it’s not that focused.
Intelligent means you can distinguish between dead matter and spirit. Just like within living
entity you can tell the difference between the dead matter, the conditioning, the covering,
and the pure spirit. So this is sambandha-jnana. So it’s not something esoteric thing, oh, we
don’t get into that, that’s all jnani stuff, we just do something else. No, this is what makes
it…, he says here, you won’t become a pure Vaisnava because you’ll mix things, so it won’t
be pure.
Lahiri Mahasaya said, “From the Vaisnavas themselves I have heard that Vaisnavas
surrender to their emotions and therefore they have no need for knowledge.
So this is going to be one side.
What kind of statement is that? I myself, up to this time, have chanted the holy names
of Lord Hari only to attain a certain feeling. I did not strive to understand any
relationships.”
So here, one is absorbed in the chanting, one gets some peace from it, or some
satisfaction, or all these different things. But still that’s the motive. It’s connected with God,
therefore that’s good, one will be purified, one will move forward. Here Lahiri Mahasaya has
come in contact with this pure Vaisnavas now, so it’s worked. But remember he did say, I am
old. So that means it took a while. So better to go directly to pure devotional service,
because that’s much more quick. So he is performing the service but without knowledge, it’s
only sentiment. So if the sentiment is going nice, he chants it goes nice, he is inspired. It
doesn’t go nice, you are not inspired. So very important this understanding. So now it will
be explained how this mix.
The babaji said, “A Vaisnava’s feelings of ecstatic love are the final result of his
devotional service. However, such love must be pure. Those who think that this ecstatic
emotion culminates in oneness with the impersonal Brahman cannot have actions and
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ecstatic emotions that are pure. Their pure ecstatic emotions are all an empty show. A single
drop of pure ecstatic love fulfills all the desires of the spirit soul. However, when that
emotion is contaminated by impersonalism, the only result is trouble and calamity for the
spirit soul. The devotional emotional displays of one who in his heart thinks he is not
different from the impersonal Brahman are merely a trick to cheat the innocent people.
Therefore pure Vaisnavas must thoroughly understand these relationships.
So one would think why would he have given this answer to this question? The question
was, I didn’t think about knowledge, I just sit and I enjoy the chanting, what feeling I get
from the chanting. So why did then he discuss about impersonal Brahman? Because
impersonal Brahman would be the jnani, right? But you think about it, what does it mean
that you are chanting and it’s just the feeling you are getting that’s all that’s important?
Because that feeling is just a state of existence, so you are only dealing with the sat principle.
So that’s actually just dealing with the element of Brahman. Because you are not taking into
it the process that is there of, the ultimate goal is not to develop love for God. It’s to
experience the effect of the mantra. So it’s not a problem to experience the effect of the
mantra, but that shouldn’t be the goal. So it’s very subtle. That’s why he is making these
points.
One should understand these things, so that one can understand, am I doing things very
nicely, is it very nice. Because otherwise then it says here, it’s just trick. Because the
Brahman is Krsna, so the point is, if you like this chanting, it’s not because you have
chanted, you have done all these things, because then it’s like, I am here, the mantra is
there, that’s a relationship. I am chanting, that’s the process. Result, I am feeling good by the
chanting. But the point is that’s not ultimate, because that experience of this chanting is
not nice, who is that coming from? Where is that coming from? That’s coming from Krsna.
It’s because you are in contact with Krsna, that’s why you feel nice. So it’s Krsna, it’s your
relationship with Krsna what makes you feel nice. This is coming to the Bhagavan platform.
So therefore if relationship with Krsna makes you nice, I should always find a way to be
absorbed in this. And if just by chanting it’s pleasing, how much more if it’s dynamic, that I
am trying to please Krsna, how much more is going to be the taste? So the problem is not the
taste. The problem is the taste is the end.
That’s always the point, whenever you are dealing with these things one has to
distinguish, otherwise just across the board. Oh, he is trying to enjoy, so that’s nonsense. No,
the point is it is connected to Krsna. If you connect to Krsna, you will enjoy, that’s not a
problem. The problem is if it’s independent, or it is not considering Krsna, or the ultimate
goal is not love for Krsna and pleasure to Krsna.
It’s like taking prasada, the problem is not that you take prasada and you enjoy prasada.
The problem is if you forget that it’s Krsna. That’s the point.
So therefore it was only dealing with it within this. It seemingly was complete, but it was
all about oneself. So it wasn’t actually relationship. So if the relationship is not dynamic, it’s
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impersonal. If it’s only existence, then we are dealing with the impersonal. (end of lecture)
(end)
February 4, 2010
Maharaja: The babaji said, “A Vaisnava’s feelings of ecstatic love are the final result of his
devotional service. However, such love must be pure. Those who think that this ecstatic
emotion culminates in oneness with the impersonal Brahman cannot have actions and
ecstatic emotions that are pure. Their pure ecstatic emotions are all an empty show. A single
drop of pure ecstatic love fulfills all the desires of the spirit soul. However, when that
emotion is contaminated by impersonalism, the only result is trouble and calamity for the
spirit soul. The devotional emotional displays of one who in his heart thinks he is not
different from the impersonal Brahman are merely a trick to cheat the innocent people.
Therefore pure Vaisnavas must thoroughly understand these relationships.
Because if you are non-different from the impersonal Brahman you can’t be having a
relationship. This is the problem. So the soul itself will not be satisfied. That’s why he is
saying here that a drop, a single drop of pure ecstatic love fulfills all the desires of the spirit soul.
Because the element here we are talking here happiness, we are starting here now at the
end, the final result. So then the element of prayojana then that would be in the position of
the nature of the soul, of sac-cid-ananda. So ananda, for happiness, there must be two.
Happiness is defined, in other words, the compatible difference between two entities. So the
greater the distance the greater the happiness. If there is oneness, what’s the happiness? So
the difference will be considered the result.
Like in money, you buy something for very cheap, sell it for very expensive, then that
difference is your profit. If you buy it for 10 rupees and you sell it for 10 rupees and 1 paisa,
then there is not much profit.
So here the difference then between the soul, which is very finite, and the Supreme
Lord, who is unlimited, is great. So one is able to perceive a difference here. There is going
to be happiness. So the impersonalist then it’s only a trick, because there is going to be a
disturbance, because the soul actually can’t work these things out. The soul will not be able
to work out the problems of if you are the same as the Brahman, why would you have to
think you are the same as Brahman to be happy? Because if you are Brahman you are
Brahman anyway, you don’t have to think about it. In other words, you don’t have to think,
oh, I am this particular person and I am sitting here in Mayapura and then only you are
happy, and if you don’t think that you won’t be happy.
So the problem comes up, the living entity is going to have difficulties because of not
actually being able to reconcile the elements of cit and ananda. Sat, ok, you are eternal,
Brahman is eternal. But if it has no qualities, therefore there can be no action, cit, or any
actual happiness, ananda. Though they accredit to the Brahman ananda, brahmananda. But
to say Brahman ananda means you are giving a quality to Brahman. So it doesn’t actually fit
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into impersonal philosophy. The problem with impersonal philosophy is it doesn’t explain
itself. So these things are just going to disturb the individual practicers and cheat everybody
else.
So this ecstatic love is actually the goal, not this ananda. The devotee is not looking to
be happy. He is looking to please Krsna, in that he will become happy.
Faithful Lahiri Mahasaya then said, “Is there something higher than the impersonal
Brahman? If the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the origin of the impersonal Brahman,
then why do the philosophers not leave the impersonal Brahman and worship the Supreme
Personality of Godhead instead?”
The saintly babaji laughed and said, “Brahma, the four Kumaras, Sukadeva Goswami,
Narada, Siva, and all other truly great philosophers took shelter of the Supreme Personality
of Godhead’s feet.”
In other words, he is asking, why is it that the great people haven’t taken shelter of the
Supreme Lord if He is the highest, and he laughed at that, because the great personalities
did, they are, and even Lord Siva he did. It’s the idiots who follow the Mayavada philosophy
they are the ones who haven’t, they are the foolish ones. They didn’t realize they were
tricked. Because Sankara was having to bring people back to the Vedic culture, because
unless you follow the sastra then your lifestyle is speculative. A lifestyle not based on the
scriptures then can’t be correct. One may say, oh, but the devotee is above all these things,
that’s nice to know the devotee is, because one of the 64 qualities of Krsna is He follow the
instructions in the Vedas. So if you want to be above the Vedas that means then you would
have to be above a relationship with Krsna, because He follows them.
So to actually establish properly devotional service then one needs the Vedas, one needs
some form to work within. And so the Buddhists were not doing that. The Buddhists they
have rejected the Vedic literatures. So now to bring people from that position of atheism
back into following the culture that’s a very great thing to do. Therefore Sankaracarya, Lord
Siva he came to do this work. Now he is a devotee of Krsna.
So he used the Buddhistic understanding, because in Buddhism then you are going to
say that there is nothing. Illusion means you think there is something, but there isn’t
anything at all. Buddhism is the farthest extreme of the jnana platform. Means the
impersonalists say there is Brahman. Then they’ll say that anything other than that that’s
illusion. But Buddhists don’t even give that much, means anything is, so even Brahman is
illusion. So their point is nothing is real. But at the same time, real is also a definition, so
then it can’t even be. So it really doesn’t make sense this one.
So he is having to take people who have been living in this head space for thousands of
years and then bring it to the Vedic. So he basically just replaces that philosophy, the
nothing becomes Brahman. Otherwise Sankaracarya actually didn’t preach anything other
than Buddhism, its philosophy. But what he is establishing, it’s based on the Vedic
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literatures rather than just based on nothing. So very, very important, means how he has
done that.
So he and all these great personalities they have surrendered to the Supreme Lord. It’s
those that are Buddhists that he is trying to bring them to the Vedic standard, and then
from there Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, then they’ll establish Vaisnava philosophy, they
will come after.
Lahiri Mahasaya said, “If the Supreme Personality of Godhead has a form situated
within space, then that form must also be limited in spatial terms. How, then, can the
spatially limited form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead be the resting place of the all-
pervading, spatially limitless impersonal Brahman?”
The babaji replied, “Even in the material world the element ether is also all-pervading
and spatially limitless. Why then should the impersonal Brahman be considered so glorious,
merely because it is all-pervading and spatially limitless? From the splendor of His
transcendental limbs the Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests the all-pervading,
spatially limitless impersonal Brahman, and at the same time His transcendental form is
spatially limited, situated in a specific place. Who has seen anyone like Him? Because no one
is like Him, and because He has no rival, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is superior to
the impersonal Brahman. His form is wonderfully attractive. In His transcendental form all-
pervasiveness, omniscience, omnipotence, the greatest mercy, and the greatest bliss are
gloriously manifest in their completeness. Is this form good? What virtue does it not have?
What power does it not have? Is an amorphous, all-pervading, unknowable something good?
The truth is that the impersonal Brahman is the qualityless aspect of the Supreme
Personality of Godhead. Personality and impersonality exist side by side in the handsome
form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The impersonal Brahman is merely one aspect
of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This formless, changeless, qualityless, unknowable,
immeasurable feature of the Lord is liked by short sighted persons. However, those who see
everything do not like any feature but the original and complete form of the Lord. The
Vaisnavas cannot place their faith in the formless impersonal Brahman, for to do so would
block their eternal nature and also block their pure love for Lord Krsna. The Supreme
Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, is the resting-place of both features: the qualityless
Brahman and the quality-filled Supreme Person. He is an ocean of transcendental bliss, and
therefore He is attractive to all pure spirit souls.
So here they are trying to deal with space, because the conditioned living entity that is
what binds him here is time and space. Because space means where something will be
performed, and then time will be action. And so you are trying to get rid of time and action.
Because your time will generate your result, and space will be that place within which it’s
performed. So unfortunately though the Brahman even though you are saying it is not
spatially limited it’s still taking up space. So this distinction they are unable to make. So
then they will be troubled by all these difference aspects.
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So the babaji is pointing out, both exist simultaneously. Because to have personal means
there must be impersonal. Like to have night you have to have day. All these things have to
be connected. Otherwise there will be no meaning. So the Lord here it’s His good qualities is
actually what is actually creating the Brahman. His qualities are so good, so special that they
themselves are self-illuminating. So that creates the Brahman. So the Brahman is actually
the effulgence of Krsna’s qualities. That’s why when it pervades through this world that
everything in this world is based on the effulgence of His qualities. So it’s His quality, but
it’s only that effulgence of it that we see manifest here. So here it’s manifest in a very
generic sense.
You have a quality beauty, so He is beautiful, He is the source of all beauty. So the
glories of that, the effulgence of that beauty then is what creates the cosmic creation. And
then we see that His internal potency then takes various forms to express that beauty. So
just as beauty being unlimited that means the manifestations also of it are unlimited. So you
are not actually dealing with something separate from Brahman. Your Brahman is still the
basis of all the variety in this world. So someone who understands this is able to be on the
Brahman platform, but at the same time, appreciate the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
the origin of this quality. So one can appreciate whatever beauty is there in this world,
whatever one considers beautiful, that is based on the Lord’s quality of beauty. It’s not
something else. Therefore the personal or the impersonal they exist at the same time. But
the personal is the source of the impersonal. It is the person who has the qualities, and the
glory of those qualities that’s what’s manifest everywhere.
So impersonal Brahman does not mean getting rid of everything, because that’s actually
Buddhism. It’s being explained as impersonalism but it’s not, it’s actually Buddhism. So one
can see the Lord everywhere and in everything, one can appreciate that there is no
mundane. Because mundane is actually the illusory concept that something is different from
the Lord, that is what makes it mundane. Inferior energy that’s what the manifestation is
through. What we are seeing, what we are looking at, is the inferior manifestation of the
Lord’s manifestation. But to see it different from Him that’s where illusion is.
That’s why these great devotees can come here to the material world they don’t have a
problem, because they never see anything separate from the Lord, therefore they are never
in illusion. Because illusion simply means you don’t see it in connection with God. It’s not
something else. Any other definition won’t define illusion. Illusion means it is God, you
don’t see it as God. So seeing it as God, that which makes it not illusion. So one is able to
appreciate God everywhere in everything. And that means one can appreciate the variety.
Because if God is unlimited that means the variety is also unlimited. To say it’s all one does
not actually attest to anything great. If everything is one, there is no variety, that’s not
considered very interesting, that’s not considered something very special, it’s the variety.
The point is what makes God special, he is saying here, is He is unlimited, at the same
time, He is in a particular place. This is what makes Him God. This is why we are not God.
Because we can only conceive of, ok, there is unlimited or there is a form, we can’t look at
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them both together. That’s the problem. That’s the mundane intelligence. So by the grace of
the Lord through His internal potency then we can understand these two. In contact with
the internal potency then we can appreciate, otherwise we can’t.
Lahiri: Krsna was born, performed activities, and then left His body at death. How is it
possible that His form is eternal?
Babaji: Sri Krsna’s form is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. His birth, activities,
and so called death are not material.
Lahiri: Why do the Mahabharata and other scriptures describe Him in that way?
Babaji: The eternal Absolute Truth is beyond description. Pure souls see Lord Krsna’s
form and pastimes. These persons then describe these both with words. Those words are like
ordinary historical accounts of material persons. They who know the true meaning of the
Mahabharata and the other scriptures understand Lord Krsna’s pastimes and other features
in one way, and the unintelligent materialists understand Lord Krsna’s pastimes and other
features in a very different way.
So the Lord is beyond description, because He is unlimited and this and that, but the
great souls can explain. This is a very important element, God can’t be explained in words.
So it’s only actually through devotion that He can be explained. So that means that the
words become empowered by the internal potency. By being empowered by the internal
potency, then one is able to appreciate what is being given there. Remember, because it’s
God’s creation, everything is going to work in the same fashion. So the point is it’s not the
medium that’s important, it’s the mood in which the medium is used. You give a gift to
somebody, it’s not the gift that’s important, it’s the mood in which the gift was given. That’s
the principle.
So therefore the words they are the medium for the expression. So if the attitude is
right, in other words, devotional, those words will carry the understanding of the Absolute
Truth. If that devotional mood is not there, then those words won’t carry it, therefore those
words are illusion. So the impersonalists will say that since you can’t describe Him in words,
then describing Him with words is actually illusory. And for them it is, because there is no
devotion. Therefore their words are illusory. And that makes it even more difficult for
them, because they’ll sit around and talk about how He is great and unlimited and the
supreme bliss and this and that, but every word coming out of their mouth is illusion. So
what does it matter that they talk anyway, or what does it matter anyone listens to them
anyway, or what does it matter anyone practices what they say, because it’s all illusion
according to their own philosophy. This is a problem.
So we don’t say that. We say, He can’t be described in words, but through devotion then
those words can carry that devotional mood, and from that you can understand. So words
simply become a medium for making that attempt to express. If someone has a feeling, you
try to express it in words, or through action. The action isn’t the feeling, the words are not
the feeling, but they carry the actual feeling. So that’s the whole point. That’s why the
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devotional is the essential element. Without the devotional then what actually has any
meaning for us? For God it doesn’t matter, because He is everything, so He is that anyway.
But that’s the masculine principle. We are not masculine, we are feminine.
So you give a gift to a lady, and she likes you she likes the gift. And so she’ll use the gift
very happily, because it reminds you of that relationship, that experience. If at some point
she doesn’t like you, then the gift has no meaning to her. She’ll get rid of it. The man won’t,
the man will think, oh, it’s valuable, it has existence, because he is taking the form of it.
This guy gave me this pen, it’s a great pen, but we are not friends any more, but I am being
practical, I am using the pen. A woman won’t do that, because for the woman the form is
not the reality, it’s the experience, so it’s what the form carries. So that’s actually how we
see things.
So we are getting all stuck up on the form here in this conversation, why? Because the
jiva thinks he is male. Therefore they get into all this time, space and this and that. But time
and space don’t really mean anything to the feminine mentality. It is only because we are
trying to be masculine we come up with all these so-called nice points, but they actually
don’t mean anything. That’s why it’s more confusing the impersonal or any of these
philosophies, because they actually mean the soul has to take the masculine attitude to be
able to function within that. But it’s confusing because it’s not natural for the living entity.
The living entity’s mentality is that of dependent upon the supreme.
So therefore it only makes sense because it’s connected to the Lord. That connection is
what makes it valuable. So in the Mahabharata and these other Vedic literatues they
describe the appearance, the pastimes, and even the departure of the Supreme Lord. So now
those who are transcendental they take that transcendental aspect that the words are
describing and they understand it and they themselves experience transcendental
happiness. Those who don’t then they simply see the form, and therefore then they get
confused, because they think that’s all there is. That’s all they look at anyway is form.
Means the karmi automatically is thinking of form, because you do work which is
observable, you get an observable result. But the actual emphasis is on the experience. The
jnanis then they are doing the same thing, because their whole philosophy is based on
whatever you see is illusion. Without whatever you see they don’t have a philosophy, they
don’t have. So both, the karmis and the jnanis, are only dealing with form, the observable
form of this world. They are not dealing with something else.
But at the same time, both of them are after the experience. The experience of having
worked and gained something, and the experience of not working and therefore not gaining
anything. So one is the experience of attachment, the other is the experience of non-
attachment or being free or independent. So one its basis is in prayojana, the feminine
aspect, and the other the basis is in sambandha, the masculine aspect. So that’s why the
impersonal philosophy is even more of a disturbance to the living entity, because it very
much has to situate the living entity in the masculine mentality to actually function. While
karmi fixes one in the feminine mentality of the results that are gained. That’s why it’s
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easier for someone who is a karmi to take up devotional service than an impersonalist.
Because the concept of relationship and happiness within relationship and activities of
relationship means something to a karmi, but not to a jnani. Because the karmi is personal
though mundane. While the impersonalist is not personal, so they don’t understand
relationship. So there is nothing to work with actually. Ok, they are renounced, they are
detached, they are intelligent, but that’s it. Anything else is going to be a disturbance for
him. So if the impersonalist is sincere that they are actually seeking the Supreme, the
Absolute Truth, then that’s the point you can work with. And then they can appreciate, oh,
so simply there is a difference within spiritual between form and formless, there is a
difference between mundane form and spiritual form.
So we see Prakasananda Sarasvati, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya they were sincere
impersonalists. They were actually sincerely thinking, I am searching for the Absolute
Truth. So then when they came in contact with the personal they could distinguish between
mundane personal and transcendental personal. While those who are not sincere is because
they are more emphasizing on me being happy by being God than actually what is the
Absolute Truth. You understand the difference?
Lahiri: When one meditates on Lord Krsna’s form, in one’s heart naturally arises the
idea of a form limited by both time and space. What other way is there to think of Lord
Krsna’s form?
Babaji: Thinking is an activity of the mind. As long as the mind is not purified and
spiritualized, the mind’s activity of thinking and meditating cannot be spiritual in its nature.
When it develops a devotional attitude, the mind gradually becomes spiritualized. Then the
mind’s activity of thinking and meditating is inevitably spiritual in nature. When the
Vaisnava devotees, who delight in devotional service, chant the holy names of Lord Hari,
the material world has no power to touch them. They are spiritualized. Residing in the
spiritual world, they meditate on Lord Krsna’s daily activities. In this way they attain the
bliss of confidential service to the Lord.
So here we see in discussing these things in philosophy is very important not to get
caught up in the detail. Because it’s in the detail where everybody is fighting from. That’s
the point. One fights over detail. Principle is very hard to fight over. Principle is very
simple, straight-forward, easy to understand. So we see here the babaji takes his point, ok,
you are meditating on Lord Krsna’s form in one’s heart, so then naturally it arises about time
and space. So then is there some other way to absorb oneself in Lord Krsna’s form that’s not
limited by time and space because of the meditation? So then you could go back, but he has
already said, he has already answered this question before about the form is not material.
But still this question comes up in the mind of Lahiri Babu.
So therefore now he goes beyond it, because he points out, if you are actually worried
about time and space, you think meditation is important, but in this meditation, which is so
dear to these yogis and jnanis and all that, that this meditation is done with your mind, your
mind is mundane, it’s a material element. So why would he even be trying to establish your
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philosophy based on your mind, think of this, think of that? Because they are going to think
of Brahman or think I am Brahman or all this thing, but it’s their mind. So right there that
would be against their philosophy.
So the point is then he points out, it’s a matter of the mind being spiritualized or not. If
it’s in contact with devotional service it becomes spiritualized. Because what’s in contact
with devotion becomes spiritualized. So whatever you are dealing with if it’s in contact with
devotional service it’s then spiritualized by the internal potency. And that then that
spiritualization is then where one can appreciate the spiritual form. But otherwise on the
mundane platform it will never be appreciated. So it’s not a matter of thinking in this way
or that way or some other way, it will all be mundane. But when it’s in contact with the
Supreme then there won’t be any problem.
So it’s a very important way of dealing here. This is a babaji, he is sitting there, he
chants his rounds, but they have very clear vision. Why? Because he is in contact with the
internal potency. Also we have to remember, this babaji was a very well-established
impersonal Vedantist before taking up devotional service. So he was well-studied, very
knowledgeable and everything like that. But now he has seen, it’s not how knowledgeable
you are, but if you are connected to the internal potency, because that carries the
understanding. Mundane intelligence and mundane mind can’t carry it.
So you can’t establish technically any impersonal philosophy with your intelligence
because the intelligence is illusion. So we’ll also say it is illusion if it’s not connected to the
Lord. But for them there is no connection, because they can’t say it’s connected to
Brahman, because Brahman has no qualities and then the intelligence has qualities. So there
can be no connection. So it’s a self-defeating philosophy. It defeats its own self, because it’s
saying that, yes, there is all this and that and here is the process you can get to that, but the
point is anything you can describe, anything you can see, anything that has an action,
anything that has a quality, is illusion. So how would illusion generate Brahman
understanding? It’s by illusion that you think you are a separate individual. How would that
same illusion put you back into the Brahman platform? So that would mean this illusion
must be the most powerful thing, because the illusion has covered Brahman and the illusion
can give you back Brahman. So it’s not actually a philosophy. It defeats itself. In any case
they never explain where illusion comes from because they can’t, it’s something they cannot
explain.
So then the devotees because they meditate upon the Lord in line with the internal
potency therefore they take up this friendship with the Lord and become a confidential
associate. Because they accept Him as a person, therefore they can be involved in it. So
spiritual, yes, is beyond the mundane, but at the same time, it can have all these qualities, it
can have all this form and everything. That’s what makes it different.
Lahiri: Please be merciful and give that spiritual understanding to me.
Babaji: When you give up all material arguments and doubts, and when you chant the
holy names day after day, then after a few days genuine spiritual understanding will arise in
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your heart. As long as those material arguments remain, your mind will stay in the shackles
of material understanding. When you taste the nectar of the holy name, the material
shackles will become loosened. Then the spiritual world will be gloriously manifested in your
heart.
Lahiri: Please be merciful and tell me about that. That I desire.
Babaji: The mind and words cannot understand it. Only when one attains the bliss of
spiritual life can one understand it. Give up all your arguments and for a few days chant the
holy names of Lord Hari. Then all your doubts will go far away. Then you will no longer ask
any question of anyone.
Lahiri: I know that a person who has faith in Lord Krsna and tastes the nectar of His
holy names attains the highest of all goals. I have well understood the relationship of the
Lord and the individual soul. I will take shelter of the Lord’s holy names.
Babaji: That is the best of all. Understand well your relationship with the Lord and you
will directly see the spiritual truth.
So here he is pointing out that by following the process, you are going to understand
devotional service actually by practicing it. Discussions are there simply to get us to the
point that we actually practice it. Because it’s not the words that will give you devotional
service. Because devotional service is being conscious of the Lord and engaging in activities
favorable to the Lord without any karma and jnana, that’s devotional service. So it is
explaining what it is. So you can explain what devotional service is. But it’s not through
that explanation that one actually tastes it. In other words, one can understand that this
what to do, at the same time, hearing about the devotees because they have accepted the
process. We have to make sure we see the difference here. Lahiri Mahasaya is arguing over
the points because he thinks another philosophy is correct. So his hearing about the
devotional process the Babaji Maharaja’s it’s not sravanam kirtanam. He is it’s nyaya, logic.
So that’s why the babaji is saying, give up this argument and practice devotional service,
then you’ll understand. So the devotee hearing about philosophy is not like this, where it’s
not what’s being spoken here has any meaning. Some people try to come up with this
philosophy.
I think there was, it means you haven’t heard it for a while, but the thing was, oh, the
tapes like of Prabhupada they are only words and they don’t actually carry, they remind you
of something that was there, but you have to have been there to actually get the benefit. So
if you are not hearing from someone who is right there right now physically embodied then
it’s not spiritual. Does that sound familiar to anything that was spoken in this book here? It’s
straight Mayavada philosophy. Straight Mayavada philosophy, of course, it fell out of the
mouth of devotees, but it’s Mayavada philosophy. Because the point is it’s the cit-potency
that makes the words or that tape or that CD or DVD or whatever it is. It’s not your
computer making all these little digital sounds is spiritual. It’s that it carries the cit-potency.
That’s what makes it spiritual.
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This is why it’s important to understand these things, otherwise sometimes we may by
thinking in the way of the karma or jnana and not realize it. But that’s straight Mayavada
philosophy. Because their point is words can’t describe. We also say words can’t describe, but
we make a distinction, those words can be a medium of the internal potency, therefore one
gets the benefit. Because in any case the form is your medium. So since rasa is the highest
thing that one is looking for, that exchange of love, it still has to have a form. Otherwise
how do you express love. It’s some like 1960s sci-fi concept where you sit around and just by
telepathy one appreciates, but still there is action. You just exist in prema? No, but prema
means the expression between two persons. So therefore there will be. So the Lord has form,
at the same time, doesn’t. But the point is, the doesn’t isn’t where the taste is, so who cares?
So that’s the whole point, these things don’t really matter all these other points, because
it boils down to the relationship between the devotee and the Lord. So he is making the
point here, you take up the chanting process, you chant for some days without argument and
that, you just understand that we are dealing with transcendental sound vibration here, this
is the Lord, and then by doing that then all this will make sense. Then those words that you
have heard will actually be empowered by the cit-potency and you will be able to appreciate
it. Because otherwise in your own mind you are just discussing these things within your
mind it’s just logic and argument, there is no internal potency. So that aspect then is by
chanting then it actually allows you to appreciate the internal potency, then you’ll
understand the Lord.
Because the Lord is beyond, we have to remember that the Lord is beyond spiritual.
Means we use the term spiritual, but spiritual simply means not material. But the Lord is the
source of not material. So what category does that put Him in? So He is beyond the material
and the spiritual because He is the source of both.
Devotee (1): This means the karmi is after karma and jnani after jnana, means we should
combine this and plus Krsna?
Maharaja: Combine this plus Krsna? The karma and jnana means, in other words, the proper
performance of regulated duties of karma without the desire of the result with the
knowledge of jnana, the proper understanding of what’s there, but without the avoidance of
action and reaction, that combination done to please the Supreme Lord, that’s buddhi-yoga,
that’s what the Gita is describing.
Because the point is any result is only tasted through action. You do an activity you get a
result. So if you want to express love you have to use activity. If you want to taste that love
you have to use activity. That’s why activity is the central point, not the result. That’s why
Govindaji is our main deity, not Gopinatha. Gopinatha is prayojana, Govindaji is
abhidheya, is activity. And our acarya is Rupa Goswami, he is the main acarya, not
Ragunatha. So it’s the activity. Because activity brings together the sambandha and the
prayojana, the masculine and feminine principle. So it’s through action that this is there.
And that combination that’s where, so that bringing together the difference that’s where
then the result is tasted, that’s where experience is gained.
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Lahiri: I understand the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme
Personality of Godhead is the ultimate form of the Supreme. The impersonal Brahman and
the Supersoul are subordinate to Him. He is all-pervading. In the spiritual world He
manifests His wonderful form. He is a person, He is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss,
and He is the master of all potencies. Even though He is the master of all potencies, He is
always overcome with bliss in the company of His hladini sakti (pleasure potency). Now
please tell me about the individual spirit souls.
So then he has basically concluded this whole discussion here, so he is understanding
the position. We have no problem with the impersonal understanding and the processes that
are actually used by the impersonalist, that’s not a problem. The problem is they think that’s
all there is. Their vision is limited that they only see the impersonal and the process of using
the impersonal to free oneself from the material world. So once you are freed, then what?
What is the source of all these things? So we can explain the source of Brahman, the source
of illusion, the source of the individual living entities, the source of the material energy.
While others can’t, because they go up to a point and it stops. So that’s a problem.
Here is now, now is able to see all these things in the proper perspective what relates to
what. And he brings out the element that He is always absorbed in the happiness of being
involved with this internal potency, and so then that brings us to the jivas. Ok, so we have
established Him and the relationship. Now we need to establish the jivas. Once we have
established Godhead and His potencies then you have to get into conversation with the
jivas. In the dasa-mula you are going to establish first the scriptures, then you are going to
establish Godhead, then you are going to discuss the living entities, and then the
relationship. So that’s the just the natural unfolding. So then tomorrow we’ll discuss about
the living entities. (end of lecture) (end)
February 5, 2010
Maharaja:
Babaji: Among the limitless potencies of Sri Krsna, one is called tatastha sakti.
Positioned between the spiritual and material, this potency can reside in either of them.
This potency is also called jiva-tattva (the individual spirit souls). The individual souls are
tiny particles of spirit. Because they are tiny particles, they may attain bondage in the
material world. However, because they are pure spirit, they may also reside eternally in the
supremely blissful spiritual world. The individual souls are of two kinds: 1. souls who reside
in the spiritual world, and 2. souls in bondage who reside in the material world. Souls in
bondage in the material world are of two kinds: 1. intelligent and 2. unintelligent. Birds,
beasts and human beings who do not strive to attain the supreme spiritual goal are the
unintelligent materially bound souls. Human beings who follow the path of the Vaisnava
religion are intelligent. Those who are not Vaisnavas do not actively strive for the real goal
of life. Therefore the scriptures declare the service to Vaisnavas and association with
Vaisnavas are the best of all activities. Intelligent human beings who have faith in the
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scriptures and chant the holy names of Lord Hari naturally associate with Vaisnavas. Those
who are not intelligent do not have faith in the scriptures and do not chant the holy names
of Lord Krsna. Even though they may serve the Deity form of Lord Krsna according to the
rules passed down through the disciplic succession, in their hearts such unintelligent
persons do not properly honor Vaisnavas.
So we just dealt with Krsna, Krsna-tattva, and then all His various aspects, His
attractiveness, His greatness, He is being the source of all potencies. So now he is touching
on the jiva-tattva, the living entities, that they being very small then they can easily be
overwhelmed by the material energy, so they can be there. But at the same time because
they are spiritual sparks then they naturally belong in the spiritual realm. They can take
either. So this is the generic description, because that will always be first. Then after that
will be detail. So then the detail is then you have those who are free from bondage who have
accepted the spiritual platform and those that are bound by the material energy, so that are
conditioned. Then of those who are conditioned then you have two kinds, the intelligent
and then unintelligent. So intelligent means they are taking up Krsna consciousness, that’s
what they are doing. Unintelligent means they are not taking up Krsna consciousness.
Now in here, now birds, beasts, and human beings that are not interested in that, that
sounds very normal, very natural. But it also says, those who are worshiping the deities
coming in parampara. And it makes the point they don’t really have that much faith in the
scriptures, therefore they don’t take up the association of the devotees very seriously.
Because serious association of devotees means one respects the devotees. One knows it’s
only in that association one makes advancement. If one thinks, oh, this devotee this, that
devotee that, that’s the meaning that we are talking here. It’s done very pleasantly and
subtly. You have to remember, there is nothing to be proven here by these great
personalities. So they don’t make the point that strong. You take it, nice. You don’t take it,
that’s the way it is. But it’s up to you. Because otherwise then if one is very strong, then
sometimes people resent that, they feel why are you getting on our case so much, give us a
break. I have come to Krsna consciousness and like this and that, though I may not be that
serious. But here it’s also mentioning somebody who is good in the rules and regulations.
So what they are trying to establish is the rules and regulations have a natural form,
but… So that’s an important thing to follow the rules and regulations, but it can’t be that
that’s all there is to your Krsna consciousness. It has to be that rules and regulations are to
situate one in God consciousness, not that the rules and regulations themselves that is Krsna
consciousness.
Just like you have a kitchen, it’s full of all items and materials, your pots are all clean and
everything is there, all your spices are in order. But that doesn’t mean the kitchen is
producing anything. It has the potential, that’s the medium for it. So the rules and
regulations of Krsna consciousness are the medium for Krsna consciousness, but they
themselves are not Krsna consciousness. A Krsna conscious person follows them, but they
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themselves aren’t Krsna consciousness. Just like a cook uses a kitchen and all its facilities,
but it’s not that the kitchen and all its facilities are cooking. Subtle point.
So he is bringing this out because we are talking universal religion, we are talking about
going to what actually makes religion work and that is the soul’s surrender to God in a
conscious way, in a favorable way. So that’s what he is bringing out here, so we are very clear
on the position of the living entity.
Lahiri: Now I understand the truth about Lord Krsna and the truth about the individual
spirit souls. Now please tell me the truth about the illusory potency maya.
We are going through the dasa-mula here in a very essential way, so that one knows
exactly what’s trying to get. Later on in later chapters each of these points will basically end
up as a full chapter itself. One chapter on the jivas, one chapter on the conditioned soul,
one chapter on the liberated soul, like this. Now we are getting the essence, because that’s
the Vedic system, if you give whatever is the topic, then you give the topic in its most
concise form. Sometimes even just as a listing of what are the elements. Then you give a
definition of the elements. Then you give an explanasion, or an expansion. So these three
levels are the natural form. So therefore he has given that. Now he is on the second part
where he is giving the definitions, then later he’ll expand on it.
Babaji: Maya is matter. Maya is one of the potencies of Lord Krsna. Maya is also called
apara sakti (material potency) and bahiranga sakti (external potency). As a shadow stays far
away from light, so maya stays far away from Lord Krsna and His devotees. Maya manifested
the fourteen material worlds, earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego,
which makes one think ‘I am this material body’. The gross and subtle material bodies of the
bound souls are manifested by maya. When a soul attains liberation, his spiritual body is
cleansed of maya’s influence. To the extent he is tightly bound by maya, to that extent the
soul is far away from Lord Krsna. To the extent the soul is free of maya’s influence, to that
extent the soul is able to see Lord Krsna face-to-face. The material universe, which is a place
of sense pleasures for the bound souls has sprouted from Lord Krsna’s will. The spirit souls
do not stay forever in the material world. The material world is only a prison for the spirit
souls.
So here maya is who is manifested, she is a potency, she is matter. But specifically it’s
not that the matter itself is maya means the personality maya is that energy, but it’s that
manifestations that are maya. The illusion is the manifestations. Because she has two names
here that is given, apara-sakti and bahiranga-sakti. So apara is material knowledge, but apara
means it’s not para, means it’s not transcendental, but it’s in line with or is compatible to be
engaged in the purpose of para, of transcendence.
Like the Vedic literatures they are, the Vedanta that’s para-vidya. But everything else in
the Veda, the four Vedas, the Vedangas, the Upangas, they are all considered apara-vidya.
In other words, knowledge that is to be used in this world in connection with
transcendence. So just like you have Sanskrit grammar. You can learn Sanskrit grammar,
study the scriptures, becomes God conscious. You can learn Sanskrit grammar, study the
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scriptures, and not become God conscious. So it can go either way, Ayurveda, astrology,
nyaya, the histories, the Puranas. Everything can be used either spiritually, which is the
actual meaning of apara-vidya, or materially, but then that becomes avidya.
So in the same way, the same knowledge if it’s used in connection with the para,
therefore it’s called apara-vidya. But if it’s not used in connection with para, it’s called
avidya, or ignorance, it’s not actual knowledge. Because he said intelligent, because
knowledge is a sign of intelligence. So intelligent means connecting yourself with God,
being God conscious. Unintelligent means not doing that. So if you take these branches of
Vedic knowledge and do not use them in connection with the Lord, that is then ignorance.
So that then becomes here bahiranga-sakti, external potency, meaning it is away from the
face of the Lord, the back of the Lord. But one is seeing the Lord, but the back. So that’s
where all the nice qualities of this world are from.
This is a fine point, to see the Lord face-to-face means one is not so interested in this
material world. As one is purified of the material consciousness one can see the Lord face-
to-face, then that’s antaranga. But bahiranga means the face is turned away. So that would
mean the soul is dependent, so he can’t actually get away from the Lord, he can’t actually be
not connected to the Lord. But he is not connected to the front, he is connected to the
back. So the back is where all the interesting qualities that are more popular in the world
here are. All your envy and attachment, death, and all these different kinds of popular
qualities here. So that is then one is seeing the back. It’s not that the jiva can go away and
just be on their own, that’s also not possible. He is connected, but he is connected through
this. So that’s where these qualities are. So to say that God, it’s unconnected with the world,
because the world has these qualities, it’s just a misunderstanding, it’s just you are seeing the
back instead of the front. The front is spiritually attractive, and then in this case the
qualities that are attractive in this world or which run this world those come from the back
of the Lord, because they are the opposite. Wherever you have one you have the other. It’s
part of the same thing.
So maya then manifests the fourteen worlds. It’s simply made out of earth, water, fire,
air, ether. So it’s just material nature. But it becomes illusion because those five elements are
manifest according to the desire of the living entity. The living entity thinks itself the body
and therefore particular kinds of forms are manifest. If the soul doesn’t think it’s the body,
then it’s no need to manifest the material creation. It’s only manifest because of the living
entities want that. So now it is by the Lord’s will that it’s being manifest, but the particular
details of it that is manifest because of the interest of the living entity.
It’s just like in a restaurant, a restaurant can cook so many preparations, but when you
make an order then they cook it. So that there is a restaurant that is the will of the
restauranteer, then the customer comes in, makes an order, they cook. So in the same way,
by the will of the Lord the material manifestation is there, because then the conditioned
living entities they don’t bother anybody in the spiritual world. He mentioned, it’s a prison.
A prison is there to keep those who are not nice away from those who are nice, that’s its
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purpose. So then the living entities who have turned their face from the Lord, who are not
interested in the Lord, they come here, because in the spiritual world everyone is interested
in the Lord.
So the Lord is really expert at making arrangements. If you are going to have a festival,
which is a party, you only have people at the party who are like-minded. Nobody likes a
party where somebody comes in who doesn’t belong there. His conversation will be wrong,
his activities will be wrong, how he tries to interact with others will be wrong. It’s just a
disturbance to the party. So therefore the conditioned souls will be a disturbance to the
liberated souls. Therefore they have this place. So then they can have their own party. You
get all the people that don’t fit in anybody’s party and put them all in one place.
Lahiri: O master, now please tell me of the eternal relationship that exists between
maya, the individual soul, and Lord Krsna.
Babaji: The tiny spirit soul is an eternal servant of Lord Krsna. The world of maya is the
souls’ prison. By associating with devotees and chanting the holy names, the soul attains
Lord Krsna’s mercy. Then, restored to his original spiritual form, the soul tastes the nectar
of direct service to Lord Krsna in the spiritual world. These are the confidential
relationships between these three. Without understanding this, how can anyone engage in
devotional service?
So he has said in essence, maya is the prison of the living entities, and so if in the
association of devotees one chants the holy names, then one will get Lord Krsna’s mercy and
one will come to the position of being able to render direct service to the Lord. So
understanding this it will work. If you think that it’s the material energy that’s valuable,
then one will be interested in that, absorbed in that, one will actually miss the point of
serving Krsna. Then it won’t be direct service to Krsna. Indirect yes, but not direct. Direct
means it’s without, in other words, the material energy isn’t the important medium. You are
worshiping the deity, you don’t think, wow, this is really nice quality stone and because of
this stone I can do such nice worship of Krsna. The material energy doesn’t even count in
the equation. So there you are dealing with the Lord directly. But if it’s important to you,
one’s position, one’s money, one’s family, one’s friends, that then becomes the medium
through which you can serve the Lord, but that’s indirect. So if you see it in connection
with the Lord, then it comes in line, it becomes the apara. But if it’s not seen in line with
the Lord, then it becomes bahirmukha. Very simple.
So then if it’s seen in connection with the Lord, it’s indirect, but it’s progressive. It will
slowly, slowly bring you that the direct element is the prominent element. Then with time
the medium is not important any more. It will still be used, because you have to use
something, and one’s conditioned nature that’s naturally what you would use, so it’s the
comfortable position. But it’s not the material environment or activity or goal that is one’s
inspiration any more, now it’s the devotional. And then from there then it again comes to
the platform where then one is, he said here restored to his original spiritual form.
Devotee (1): If non-Vedic knowledge is engaged in Krsna’s service, it’s still apara-vidya?
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Maharaja: If non-Vedic knowledge is engaged if it works, it’s apara-vidya. It’s just its
connection is not very clear.
It’s just like the natural state is to be in knowledge. So in knowledge one can say how
something transforms into something else. In other words, if you understand how milk
transforms into yoghurt, then you use yoghurt in your menu. Let us say you have no idea
how yoghurt comes from milk, but still if you understand the nature of yoghurt you can still
use it. But it won’t be quite the same as someone who understands.
So in the same way is the what we would say your contemporary knowledge. The
problem is contemporary doesn’t exactly say, because it’s what’s going on now, because also
devotional service is going on now, transcendence is going on now, so it’s also contemporary.
At the same time, you use the term modern, then those people who basically work in the
sociological or academic fields then modernism is a time period, rather than modern is what
goes now that is speculative. In other words, the Vedic definition is modern is that which is
not Vedic, it’s that simple. But they like to make it into a time period. So technically now we
are in post-post-modern, and they are trying to still think up a name what they call post-
post-modern. So I guess they have to figure it out for the post-post-post-modern.
Devotee (2): Maharaja, could you say that somebody that sincerely is following apara-vidya
will…following the Vedas?
Maharaja: If someone is sincerely following the apara-vidya, but sincerely means it’s
connected to the Lord and it’s following the Vedic formulas of while you are applying the
knowledge you are aware of its application now, so that you see that the quality result is
obtained and that result is for the Lord, then you can say, I mean in our definition you
would be following the Vedas. You could still be following it, getting the result, but the
result is for yourself and you could say yes.
Any knowledge of the world that actually works is Veda, because Veda means
knowledge. Knowledge means that which is actually practically truth, what actually works.
So the Vedic is looking at how to apply an action for something you need in such a way that
it does not impinge on anyone else’s rights to also work within the material nature and get
what they desire. So in other words, Vedic knowledge means operating the laws of God not
to the detriment of others. In other words, it only is a law of God if it’s done that way. So
anything that actually is in line with that even though they don’t know it’s that’s what it is.
Let’s say you are supposed to respectful to your parents. Ok, there is plenty of people on
the planet that are. But they don’t think I am respectful of my parents because that’s the
Vedic injunction. They just it’s the tradition, or it makes sense, or they feel that sense of
duty or obligation that their parents have done so much for them, so they do. So in that way
then they perform the activity. So they get benefit for that because it actually is Vedic. But
they don’t know the connection, so they don’t get that benefit.
But in doing that how they will respect their parents that will be speculative. So that
will not have the benefit of the tradition of the great personalities who their application of
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the Vedic injunction is very natural in line with the position of the parents, the society,
God consciousness and all that. In other words, respect of the parents doesn’t mean doing
whatever they say if it’s bad for God consciousness.
Just like we see Prahlada Maharaja when he dealt with his father. Now his father was
only interested in his lack of God consciousness or his atheism, how nicely is his atheism
being cultivated by his teachers, his materialistic spirit? So Prahlada Maharaja, because
Hiranyakasipu is his father, then he deals very nicely, cultured. He speaks in the right tone
of voice, he uses the proper words, he is respectful, he calls him oh greatest of the demons,
all the proper terms that the demons want to hear. One may think, well, that doesn’t sound
right. But it’s not that he would take up the recommendation of his father, and even if he
didn’t agree with it, he was rejecting, he would still do it according to the etiquette of the
relationship between the father and son.
So that’s the Vedic culture, the culture cannot be dropped. We can’t say, well, he is a
demon so it doesn’t matter. No. He is a demon, yes, so that aspect has to be dealt with. But
he is a father, so that has to be dealt with. So this modern concept that truth means
whatever aspect that I focus on if that is obtained then nothing else matters. But that’s not
balanced, that’s not complete. Because all those things do matter.
So Vedic means being intelligent and understanding all the aspects and being able to
balance those. So that’s why we see, the opening of Manu, then the detail of what is
respectable in human society, all those things have to be taken into consideration. Then
what is the hierarchy of this respectability. What is prominent, what’s next, what’s next,
what’s next. Then what are your obligations there, and what happens if you don’t. So all
those things are established, so that when you deal it’s complete.
Just like let’s say you have a qualified brahmana and you have a very qualified king. Now
from one position one can look at, well, he is the king and he is running everything, and the
brahmana is not running the country. So then the king would be the one to be respected. At
the same time we know from the Vedic conclusion that knowledge is higher than
administration, so therefore the brahmana would be respected by the king. Now in the
modern scenario it would be one or the other. The concept of both is very rare. Generally
the only ones that actually, your general public doesn’t work like this. But the point is the
brahmana resepts the king for his duties and being very expert at his kingly duties, and the
king respects the brahmana for his position. So they are mutually respecting each other. But
of the two the brahmana is superior. But it doesn’t mean because he is superior the etiquette
is not followed, he doesn’t consider here is a king first of all, and here is a qualified king. So
all these things have to be taken into consideration, knowledge, influence, family relation,
sacrifice done. Someone who has done more sacrifice, that has to be respected. Someone has
been out on sankirtana doing book distribution for twenty years, that has to be respected.
He may be behaving in a not good way or that, but that aspect has to be respected. Then
where it’s not going proper that’s another consideration, you have to balance those two. So
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the modern concept is it’s not balanced. So that’s the weakness with modern knowledge is
its connection with the Vedic and therefore its balance, that’s the problem.
The problem is not engaging the knowledge.The problem is if you don’t know the Vedic
standard, then in engaging the knowledge it may not be complete in its application. So this
thing of yukta-vairagya, we can use anything, yes, it’s true. But the point is, does yukta-
vairagya not considering the Vedic standard and Vedic scriptures. Then in that case if it
does, then it’s like as it said before, that falls into the category of the unintelligent person,
even though one may be serving the deity. So that’s the point.
And intelligence and unintelligence is not how much material, what’s your IQ, or how
clever you are in manipulating material energy. It means that human life you could go back
to Godhead and you are not using it for that efficiently. So that’s not intelligent.
So the yukta-vairagya is fine as long as it’s seen, means the main point is that it’s
connected to Krsna. Yukta means that it’s connected to Krsna. Not yukta means just
because I am using it. My senses and this element are engaged in some kind of interaction,
that’s yukta. That’s not, yukta means it’s connected with God. So it actually has to be
connected.
So that’s why the tradition and the culture is there so that when applying yukta-
vairagya, then it comes into the bigger picture, because modern is the smaller picture. We
may take it, oh, it’s bigger, more people are following. No, it’s smaller. Because, factually it’s
only on this planet that it’s so prominent of not following the Vedic culture. On all the
other planetary systems they follow it. Even the lower planetary systems that’s just where
the demons live, they follow the Vedic culture. The universal demons are not so stupid to
think a lifestyle outside of the Vedic purview is actually going to be successful.
It’s just like, if you are a real gross materialist, you really want to get facility and enjoy in
this world, then you have to follow dharma. Because only by dharma do you get artha, and
only by artha then you can have kama. So the real intelligent demons follow the Vedic
culture. But still that itself is still considered in the classification generally of unintelligent,
because that same endeavor could be used in connection with God consciousness.
Bali Maharaja is doing this great sacrifice, it’s big, it’s not a normal. He has got five
priests. He has got the hotri, the utgata, the advayur, the brahma, plus he has an acarya. You
have to have a very big yajna to do that. And the acarya is Sukracarya, one of two top
brahmanas in the universe. Big sacrifice. So to do that would mean he’d have to have all
kinds of facilities, is very qualified. But it is still unintelligent, because it is not connected to
Visnu. And then at the end, then he makes the intelligent decision and connects it to
Visnu, though in the process he loses everything. So his spiritual master says, that wasn’t
very intelligent. But yes, materially it wasn’t, but spiritually yes. So it’s the actual real
intelligence. So then by the same sacrifice he gets both, the material facilities and God
consciousness. So then afterwards Visnu, Vamanadeva asked Sukracarya what was his fault,
and Sukracarya says no fault. Just he is a materialist so therefore he was recommending the
material path, but factually he was saying there was no fault in his decision at all. And then
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from that we see, he is God conscious, God lives as his doorman, at the same time, he is
going to be the next Indra.
So that’s the point. If you consider both and both are connected to Krsna, you get the
result of both. If it’s not connected to Krsna, then you are going to get whatever meager
result is there and you won’t get Krsna consciousness. That’s the point.
Lahiri: If one should carefully attain this knowledge, must one become a great scholar
before becoming a Vaisnava?
Babaji: A Vaisnava need not study different languages and not become a great scholar.
To throw far away the bewilderment presented by maya, what the soul must do is take
shelter of the feet of a bona-fide Vaisnava spiritual master. By the spiritual master’s words of
instruction and by the disciple’s own spiritual activities, the disciple comes to understand
the truth of these relationships. This is called diksa (initiation) and siksa (instruction).
Now is, because this is all technical, we think, oh, until I know all this I can’t become a
devotee. No, these are tools to help in devotional service. The real point of devotional
service, we said before, is the association of devotees. So taking that up seriously, taking that
shelter of the spiritual master, and hearing the instructions and practicing it, that actually
makes the process of siksa and diksa, that is what makes it work.
So in here you notice, he just said, take shelter of the lotus feet of the spiritual master
and hear his instructions. Because the taking shelter is technically the element of diksa, and
then hearing his instructions and practicing them, that’s siksa. So that will be the definition
on the highest platform of the Bhagavata. But the same principle is there in all the other
forms, the Pancaratrika and the Vedic manifestation, the same principle, just it has a
formality to it. So this is what makes it work.
In other words, only by taking shelter of the devotees, taking seriously that and these
practices and are given by the devotees, their instructions, that’s actually going to make one
advance. Now part of sravanam is hearing the philosophy and hearing these things. So we
hear, and then how much we are able to appreciate, that much we apply. So that’s it
becomes very individual. But the generic is one must take shelter of the devotees, that must
happen. That association is what actually makes it successful. Why? Krsna takes shelter of
the devotees. So if God takes shelter, why wouldn’t we? If we want to work with God face to
face, then we have to do like what He does. God likes to be in the association of devotees, so
we should like that. We don’t like that, you won’t like being with God, because you want to
be with God, but he is always with everybody else. So unless you are happy with being with
everybody else, then you won’t like it.
If it’s just you and God, that’s why there is Paramatma, because that’s all there is. But
that’s why it’s considered within the purview of the mundane, the material consciousness.
Lahiri: What does one do after initiation and instruction?
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Babaji: Living a moral life, one should serve Lord Krsna. This is called abhidheya.
Because it is clearly described in the Vedas and all other scriptures, Lord Caitanya
Mahaprabhu called this activity abhidheya.
So here simply, living a moral life, one should serve Lord Krsna. So that’s the thing. Moral
would mean what is defined by the scriptures, and you also take into consideration local
custom. But not customs that are against the Vedic principles, but that are it’s not a
problem. In other words, one lives a proper life recommended in the scriptures according to
one’s position, and one should serve the Lord according to the instructions of the spiritual
master. So that is the process.
So taking shelter of the spiritual master, hearing the instructions, that’s sambandha.
Now living it, that’s abhidheya. So that’s what one is trying to get to.
Lahiri (with tears in his eyes): O spiritual master, I take shelter of your lotus feet. By
hearing the honey of your words, I now understand my relationship with Lord Krsna. By
your mercy all my previous ideas of caste, knowledge, and spiritual instruction are thrown
far away. Now please mercifully instruct me about abhidheya.
Babaji: There need be no more worry. Now that you are humble, Sri Krsna Caitanya will
certainly be merciful unto you. Association with devotees is the only cure for souls bound in
the material world. The bona fide spiritual master mercifully teaches one how to serve Lord
Krsna. By engaging in devotional service one gradually attains the goal of life. Thus
devotional service is called abhidheya.
The association of the devotees is actually what the whole process is about. So
everything that’s there is to create association. So preaching means that you are giving
association to those that don’t necessarily appreciate the concept of association. Someone
who therefore from that takes it up, then there is the association, the interaction of the
devotees. So all these different situations that are there are simply to create interaction. The
temple programs, or the nama-hatta or bhakti-vrksa programs, or whatever programs are
there in the society they are simply to create association of devotees – association of
devotees, hearing instruction and then practicing it, that’s all there is. Anything else is
supportive of this. We see again and again when he brings up the point, it goes back to this
always.
Lahiri: Please tell me: How does one serve Lord Hari?
Babaji: Devotional service to Lord Hari is called bhakti. Bhakti has three stages: 1.
sadhana (devotional service in practice), 2. bhava (ecstasy) and 3. prema (pure love). The
beginning stage is sadhana. By again and again performing sadhana, bhava is manifested.
When bhava becomes perfect it is called prema.
So it’s through sadhana, or practice. Means in other words, one has taken shelter of the
spiritual master, one is hearing instruction. So that practicing that instruction that’s
sadhana-bhakti, because you are practicing following the instruction. So by practicing
sadhana, it will bring one to bhava, and when bhava is perfect, that will bring one to prema.
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So notice here it says, sadhana (devotional service in practice), then bhava, then prema.
The sadhana, he didn’t define there about vaidhi and raganuga, because they are both
sadhana. Bhava is also sadhana, but it’s on a different level because you are not conditioned.
Sadhana-bhakti would refer to in the conditioned state, and bhava-bhakti would refer to
when one is in the liberated state. So it’s important to note that they don’t make that
distinction at this point in the beginning, later it will be made as a fine point.
Lahiri: What are the different kinds of sadhana and how are they performed? Please
teach me that.
Babaji: In his book Sri Hari-bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Srila Rupa Goswami has
elaborately described all this. I will give a brief summary. There are nine kinds of sadhana.
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.23) it is said:
“Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities,
paraphernalia, and pastimes of Lord Visnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the
Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering
prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one’s best friend, and
surrendering everything unto Him (in other words serving Him with the body, mind and
words) - these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service.”
So these are sadhana-bhakti. So sadhana means this. Now as we’ll see that can be
performed on different levels, but these are what is pure devotional service. Pure devotion
means its intent is to please the Lord.
Thus in Srimad-Bhagavatam it is written that the nine kinds of sadhana-bhakti are: 1.
hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia,
and pastimes of Lord Visnu, 2. remembering them, 3. serving the lotus feet of the Lord, 4.
offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia,
So it doesn’t mean you just do whatever you like, there is 16 types of paraphernalia,
that’s what worship means. It’s just like you say, a meal is rice, dal, sabji, and chapattis. It’s
not that, oh, we don’t care for all these rules and regulations, we’ll just make dal. But
because that would be boring, let’s add some popcorn also. But that doesn’t mean it’s correct.
Correct means, deity worship means 16 items. It’s simple. We want to get involved, but not
take care.
The boy wants to be around the girl but doesn’t want to buy her any nice clothes or take
her out or speak with her nicely. And he could say, oh, what’s the trip, what’s the big thing,
what does it matter? So one could say, no, that’s just the way girls are. So in the same way
you can say, well, that’s just the way puja is. God made it, it’s the way it is. And seeing that
the one you are worshiping with puja is God, then you might as well follow the way he wants
to be worshiped. Otherwise it would be hard to call it pure, because it’s only your
consideration. And why doesn’t one want to do the different things? Because one is lazy. So
that is ignorance. So we can’t consider ignorance to be pure.
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So that’s the thing, what is authorized that is done, you can’t make up your own system.
So that’s why twice he has mentioned 16 kinds of paraphernalia. And you see in the verse
sravanam kirtanam smaranam vandanam, in there Prabhupada explains the 16
paraphernalias in the purport, very big purport to this one. I think many, many pages, maybe
like ten pages.
Devotee (3): 12 pages.
Maharaja: 12 pages, because it’s an important verse.
5. offering prayers to the Lord, 6. becoming His servant, 7. considering the Lord one’s
best friend, and 8. surrendering everything unto Him. Describing the different limbs and
sub-limbs that are parts of these, Srila Rupa Goswami describes 64 different kinds of
sadhana bhakti. While considering these points, another topic needs to be explained.
So that becomes the 16 expands into 64. So 64 is simply a fuller manifestation of this,
the different ways that the deity would be worshiped. Most of them are connected with this,
probably about 30 of them are connected like this. In other words, taking shelter of the
spiritual master, how to deal with the spiritual master, how to deal with the spiritual
environment, then the different aspects, the nine processes and all their expansions. So he
gives all this. And of that, associating with devotees, chanting Hare Krsna, hearing Srimad-
Bhagavatam, residing in the dhama, worshiping the deity, these five are the most powerful.
So of all the different things this is actually the essence. Then he says,
Sadhana bhakti is of two kinds: 1. vaidhi (according to rules and regulations), and 2.
raganuga (spontaneous). In vaidhi bhakti one engages in the nine kinds of activities
previously described. In raganuga-bhakti one engages in the activities of sadhana bhakti, but
one becomes a follower of the people of Vraja, and in one’s mind sees Lord Krsna as they do.
One should engage in the kind of sadhana bhakti for which he is qualified.
So it’s not that raganuga changes the form. The nine processes are still the same
activities of raganuga-sadhana. It’s the same. The difference is how you perceive the Lord.
The one is, I am doing this because this is what the scriptures say I should do, so that’s
considered the lower level. So as we see before, not being interested in the scriptures, then
that basically is lower than that. Or interested in the scriptures but not in connection with
the Lord, that also is useless.
So here is then this vaidhi and raga then are established that they are following the
same thing. One is taking up the mood, that means one sees Krsna in that particular way.
The residents here of Vraja then means that Krsna is the all in all for them. There is
nothing more important than Him, so beyond liberation, beyond all these things.
Vaikuntha, the element of liberation is there, but in Vraja it’s not, nobody cares for it. So
that’s the mood, the generic mood.
Because one can say, you take up here, it doesn’t say, the follower of the people of Vraja,
so that means all of them, that means all the different rasas, so the specific rasa is a detail.
It’s not the principle, it’s the detail. Because one can be in Dvaraka, all the five rasas are
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there, but it’s a different mood. In Vraja the five rasas it’s a different mood again. So it’s that
generic mood of Krsna being whatever all in all that’s what makes it Vraja. Then within
that they have the different relationships.
So raganuga it doesn’t mean specifically the relationship is the thing, it’s the generic
view that is the first thing. Then it moves into the second. Many make the mistake and
think that it’s the detail, but it’s not. That will come with time.
Devotee (2): …Prabhupada also mentions also that in Goloka Vrndavana there are four
rasas.
Maharaja: Four rasas means four rasas that the jiva tries to obtain to. We don’t bother with
santa, because santa is taken care of by the sandhini potency. The sandhini potency expands
and creates all the elements of santa-rasa, so all the cows and trees and animals and grass
and all that. But it’s not that a jiva couldn’t obtain that. But it’s not the recommendation
since that’s already been taken care of. The other rasas are considerate prominent. And
even of that they consider three, starting from friendship. That’s what makes it more
special. Because if it’s servitorship that’s there in all the other realms also. So the
servitorship element is there, but it’s more important the other three. That’s what makes
Vraja what it is.
Devotee (2): That’s why also in these nice processes the last two are considered in actual
raganuga-bhakti, atma-nivedanam and sakhyam.
Maharaja: Friendship and that would be there, but at the same time, hearing and chanting
and remembering would also be the raga. But all the other ones can be done also. One can
worship within that, like you see. But it’s just a matter of how you see. Because the
Goswamis they worship their deities, but it’s not the prominent element. Their hearing and
chanting is their prominent, and then that mood of surrender.
So in other words, there is three moods of surrender. One of that it’s through the
becoming a servant, so taking that mood. The next is friend. The next is that full surrender.
So those are kind of like the three moods that one can perform the other six activities.
So this is very generic. Means as time goes, the last half of the book is going to be talking
a lot about that Vraja-bhakti and things like that. And now we are trying to establish the
actual attitude and everything. (end of lecture) (end)
February 22, 2010

Maharaja: Thus in Srimad-Bhagavatam it is written that the nine kinds of sadhana-bhakti
are: 1. hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities,
paraphernalia, and pastimes of Lord Visnu, 2. remembering them, 3. serving the lotus feet of
the Lord, 4. offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, 5.
offering prayers to the Lord, 6. becoming His servant, 7. considering the Lord one’s best
friend, and 8. surrendering everything unto Him.
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Probably better if they hadn’t put numbers, because the first two are put together as one.
Describing the different limbs and sub-limbs that are parts of these, Srila Rupa Goswami
describes 64 different kinds of sadhana bhakti. While considering these points, another
topic needs to be explained. Sadhana bhakti is of two kinds: 1. vaidhi (according to rules and
regulations), and 2. raganuga (spontaneous). In vaidhi bhakti one engages in the nine kinds
of activities previously described. In raganuga-bhakti one engages in the activities of
sadhana bhakti, but one becomes a follower of the people of Vraja, and in one’s mind one
sees Lord Krsna as they do. One should engage in the kind of sadhana bhakti for which he is
qualified.
Lahiri: How does one know he is qualified for one or the other of these kinds of sadhana
bhakti?
Babaji: A faithful person who follows the rules and regulations is qualified. In the
beginning his spiritual master teaches him vaidhi sadhana-bhakti. Then, when the disciple
becomes qualified, the spiritual master teaches him how to worship the Lord by following
the path of raganuga-bhakti.
Lahiri: How does a person know he has become qualified for this?
Babaji: One who has not yet experienced in his heart the love that characterizes
raganuga-bhakti, and who instead wishes to serve the Lord according to the rules and
regulations described in the scriptures is qualified to engage in vaidhi bhakti. One who does
not wish to be ruled by the scriptures’ rules and regulations in his devotional service to Lord
Hari, and in whose heart a spontaneous love for Lord Hari’s devotional service has become
manifested, is qualified to engage in raganuga-bhakti.
The point of the study of these things is that we are trying to find out what makes all
these things work, what makes it function. So the difficulty comes up that one makes the
mistake to think that it’s the form is complete in itself. But as we see there is beyond. In the
material manifestation you have four levels of causation. You have the material cause, the
operational cause, formal cause, and then the ultimate cause. So if that’s the case, why
would anyone think that simply the form that he can see is the total? When that form itself,
that itself is only, in the material plane, the material cause. So on the spiritual platform then
that would be the spiritual nature, it won’t be external potency, it will be internal potency.
But the material cause creates the situation.
Like right now, we are in this situation. You have floor, you have columns, you have a
ceiling. So depending upon this situation then there is opportunity to perform activities.
Otherwise why is material given the term cause? Otherwise it would simply be result. But it’s
cause because in this situation there is only so many things operational activities we can do
with this. Means it itself also when you operate material energy it is going through the
modes of nature are creating your result, of course, but the point is the influence is that. So
whether the material situation or, I mean a situation created by material energy or a
situation created by spiritual energy still it’s only the situation.
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Like you go into the temple room. When you go into the temple room, what do you find?
There is also four walls, floor, ceiling, but you have deities, you have vyasasana, you have
devotees there chanting their japa, or studying, or some doing some aspect of sadhana-
bhakti. So that situation then what can you do? Bring a bucket of water and take a bath
there or something like that, or wash your clothes? You can only do so many things there.
But the point is you have the temple room. Now you have that temple room there, so
having it there does that mean devotional service is happening? No. You have to perform
devotional service. But you have to perform it according to the situation that’s there, the
deities are there. Which way do you face when you are singing kirtana? You face the deities
because of the situation. So the form creates the environment in which the devotional
activity will be performed.
So now we have to look at it, so it’s not that the form of raganuga is simply I sit around
and read stories about Krsna and the gopis, which is the commonplace understanding. But
the point is raga means it’s spontaneous, it’s based on attachment. So now if that’s the real
form of raganuga-sadhana, sitting around and reading about the gopis, then what is the form
of vaidhi-sadhana? That the so-called raganuga sadhakas don’t explain. They can explain
raganuga, means reading about the gopis. But what is vaidhi which it is based on? Then it
becomes, vaidhi is the lack of raganuga. But that would make then raganuga the actual form
and vaidhi would be simply an expansion of that.
But we see, the form of sadhana-bhakti is one. It’s the mood that makes the difference.
So that means you could be performing raganuga-sadhana-bhakti without sitting around
reading stories about Krsna and the gopis, because that’s not the form. Because it says
following in the footsteps. It’s having the mood, not reading the stories.
Because if you go to a Bhagavata-sapta that your standard Hindus go to, here standard
meaning according to Hindu standards. So seven days they speak on Bhagavatam, now most
of that is on Tenth Canto, and most of that is on Vrndavana-lila, and most of that will be
on Krsna and the gopis. So now are they engaged in raganuga-sadhana? No. So it’s the mood
that counts. It’s the mood that counts.
So that is the point that he is bringing out here. If your inspiration to do the devotional
activity is the correctness and religiousness of the activity itself, that’s vaidhi-sadhana. You
go to mangala-aratika, it’s the right thing to do, it’s good to do, it’s purifying, it’s auspicious,
it’s the proper way to start your devotion day, that is vaidhi-sadhana.
The Vrajavasis they do whatever they do, not because it’s the rule. Not that they don’t
follow the rules, but that’s not the reason that they follow it. They do it because they like
doing it, because it’s connected to Krsna. They get up in the morning, what’s the first thing
they want to see? Krsna. For us, it’s a question of whether we even want to get up or not. For
them, why do they get up at that time? Because that’s when Krsna gets up. If Krsna got up at
nine o’clock in the morning, they’d be getting up at nine o’clock in the morning. But Krsna
got up at four o’clock, so they get up. Because they can’t see Him at night when He is asleep.
But as soon as He gets up, then they can see Him. So that’s the first thing they do. He is up,
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they want to see Him, so they are there. That’s raganuga. It’s nothing to do with gopis this
that. That’s a detail.
That’s detail. There is a generic mood of the Vrajavasis that they want to see Krsna.
When Krsna comes back from the forest to Nandagram, all the cows come, but also all the
birds and the other animals in the forest come. They follow Krsna back to Nandagram. And
so then when Krsna goes into Nandagram all the birds and that just stay around the trees
that are right around where Krsna is going to come out in the morning. They don’t go back
to the forest. They stay there. And when Krsna gets up and in the morning when He goes to
the fields with the cows and the cowherd boys then they follow Him back out into the
forest. So that’s the birds. This is raganuga, this is what makes Vraja what it is. That’s the
point.
Now a detail is you are a bird, or you are a cow, or you are a cowherd boy, or a senior
gopi, or a younger gopi, that’s a detail within the principle of raga. Some may say, oh, if you
are reading about the gopis, that’s raga, but if you are reading something else, that’s not. No,
that’s not the point. The point is when you read, what do you see? That’s the point. That’s
the difference.
Devotee (1): Can it be also understood, Maharaja, that somebody is listening to the
Bhagavata-sapta and is also raganuga practicing?
Maharaja: Means he can be. The point is, it’s mood, it’s not form. Because as Rupa Goswami
mentions, that he gives the example that when someone is practicing raganuga-bhakti, he
gives the example, you have the wife, if she has a paramour, she actually does her household
duties better than if she wasn’t, or she didn’t. Because if she is just in the house with her
husband, then she is going to perform her duties in the house, one, according to her own
taste, and according to what her husband deserves. He has been behaving nicely, he gets
taken care of nicely. He hasn’t been doing nicely, then something there to discipline his
actions.
Now if the wife has a paramour, then she is very careful to show her affection to the
husband, because if you look at it, if you go around and make a list and ask all the men in
the world, and say, your wife is being very nice to you, or is her being not nice to you a
symptom of her affection for you? And basically speaking will probably 99.99 off out into the
distance, when she is not that means she doesn’t like you. Rather than the only reason that
she would be upset with you and not talk to you is because she likes you, because if she didn’t
like why would she even bother?
So therefore for the man if she is nice all the time, they think everything is perfect.
There is no concept that how could it be nice all the time, energy doesn’t work like that, it
goes forward back, it goes up down. A thunderbolt doesn’t go straight, it’s zigzag, so that’s
their nature. So why is it she is nice all the time, so that means she wants something, there is
something else going on. But the man will never understand this, because that’s what he
expects women to be like.
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Therefore if the wife is perfect in all her duties all the time, always chirpy, always nice,
then he is happy and he’ll never suspect anything else, because he is so much in illusion
about what women are, that when that illusion is presented in this full form, he buys it lock
stock and barrel, because that’s what he wants. This 50/50, 50 nice, 50 not nice, he doesn’t
think that that’s actually a real concept. It should be 100% nice. He is not 100% nice, but
hey, who said this relationship is based on intelligence or logic? So therefore she will do her
duties nicer, because she has to establish that environment.
So that actually means which is exact opposite of what most people will interpret this
that someone is following raganuga-sadhana the form of vaidhi will actually be better than a
vaidhi-sadhaka, because he is hiding his raga. But they take it here is that this, means you
notice there is two parts here, so they take one very nicely, the other one they drop. Babaji:
One who has not yet experienced in his heart the love that characterizes raganuga-bhakti, notice,
he says the love, it doesn’t say, one who hasn’t sat around and read about the gopis all day,
he says love, and who instead wishes to serve the Lord according to the rules and regulations
described in the scriptures is qualified to engage in vaidhi bhakti. So they miss that first part.
Then this part also, then they like very much, but the second part they won’t. One who does
not wish to be ruled by the scriptures’ rules and regulations in his devotional service to Lord
Hari, that they’ll take, yeah, I don’t want to be ruled by the rule, so therefore me not
following the rules and doing whatever I want, that’s called raganuga-bhakti. That’s called
not spontaneous, but sporadic devotional service, and in whose heart a spontaneous love for
Lord Hari’s devotional service, that’s part’s missed, has become manifested, is qualified to
engage in raganuga-bhakti.
In other words, what we are saying is it’s not the rules that are driving you, it doesn’t
mean you don’t follow them. Otherwise why does he give the example of the wife with the
paramour? Otherwise it will be very straight-forward. Someone who is in the vaidhi-sadhana
does all the rules and regulations very nicely, he is attached to the rules. But raganuga-
bhakti, he doesn’t follow any rules, does whatever he likes whenever he likes. But that’s not
the description. That’s why it says sadhana-bhakti has two parts. So when Rupa Goswami
described the 64 kinds of devotional service, the limbs and sublimbs of devotional service
that are based on the nice processes, that’s sadhana-bhakti. Then vaidhi or raganuga is your
inspiration to follow those 64 items. Very simple.
Oh, you can say, but I am spontaneously attracted to read about Krsna and the gopis.
Nice, great. But don’t think that that’s your raganuga, because if that is, are you doing that
all the time? What about if you finish with your raganuga-sadhana of reading about the
gopis and then you get up and call your business associates about the different deals that you
have to make to maintain the family, going out getting money and all these things, coming
back home, kissing your wife, going in sitting on the couch and reading the newspaper,
where is the raganuga there? That’s the weakness. Because if the form is all there is, then
most of these people who claim raganuga-bhakti they’ll follow it how much of the day? How
much are they sitting around and reading about the gopis?
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Devotee (2): One hour.
Maharaja: Yeah, maybe an hour. So that’s why, that definition is not correct. Because Krsna
and the gopis are nice, much of the Tenth Canto goes with that, means any Hindu loves to
listen to that. Even the Mayavadis when they tell stories they tell these stories. So is that
Mayavadi now in raganuga-sadhana? They are the attractive stories.
The Sri Vaisnavas they have their alwars, their previous acaryas, there is 12 of them, so 3
of them wrote songs on the pastimes in Vrndavana, and of the 3 one of them exclusively
wrote songs on Vrndavana, nothing else. So does that make her a raganuga-sadhaka? She is
a Laksmi from Vaikuntha, one of the Lord’s consorts in Vaikuntha. Because they are so
sweet and nice. If you go into the big temples in South India, Tirupati, Sri Rangam, these
kind of temples like this, they are the core, the heart of the vaidhi-sadhana of Vaikuntha.
But on the walls in the room where the deity sleeps at night there is pictures of Radha and
Krsna. So it’s not the form. It’s the mood that you use in the form.
So form is important, because form has to match the mood. But just because the form is
there doesn’t mean automatically the mood is there. If it was, then why is it when we follow
the sadhana-bhakti, why is it not automatically we are on the platform of raga? So we are
performing the activities, the sadhana of the residents of Vraja, but we don’t have the mood.
So that’s why we are still there.
So this is very important to approach it from a more mature platform, rather than just
something one likes to do. One likes to do read about Krsna. Great. But don’t claim that
that’s what makes the raganuga. Because everybody likes to hear about Krsna and the gopis.
You like to hear about Krsna and the gopis? Yes, see. Do you know what we are talking
about?
Devotee (3): Hearing about Krsna and the gopis.
Maharaja: Hearing about Krsna and the gopis, yes, that’s the main topis today, yes. Very
astute.
Lahiri: O master, please tell me for which one I am qualified. I cannot understand these
explanations of who is qualified for what. I do not know whether I should engage in vaidhi
or raganuga bhakti.
Babaji: If you examine your heart you will understand where you are qualified. In your
heart do you see the idea that it is not possible to engage in devotional service to Lord Hari
without following the scriptures’ teachings?
Lahiri: In my mind is the idea that sadhana-bhakti following the scriptures teachings
brings the best result. But now in my mind I also think that devotional service to Lord Hari
is a great ocean of nectar, and by engaging in devotional service I will gradually be able to
taste that nectar.
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Babaji: You can now see that the scriptures’ rules and regulations are the ruler of your
mind. Therefore you should engage in vaidhi bhakti. Gradually the spiritual love that is
raganuga bhakti will manifest in your heart.
Like you take it, the devotee is following the sadhana and following the regulative
principles. So you say he is situated nicely in devotional service, but if there is some
weakness in that in any case, you’ll say he is not engaged in devotional service. So that’s the
platform of vaidhi. Because vaidhi is dependent upon those rules to actually manifest
devotional service. While devotional service is actually the mood. Because if one sees like
this it broadens their perspective.
The devotee is performing the activities, but let’s say like in the morning, where are a
lot of devotees during the time when chanting and all that’s going on, where are they? Are
they chanting? Are they reading Bhagavatam or something? Or are they sitting behind the
computer doing email? So now one could consider they are not engaged in devotional
service, because it’s not actually according to the rules. At the same time, they are
performing devotional activities. They have a spontaneous attraction to sitting behind a
computer. They love pushing that button downloads google. So one could say that this is not
proper, it’s not devotional service. So that viewpoint is vaidhi. But in actuality they are
engaged in devotional service, because the reason they are doing the email is connected
with devotees and devotional service.
Now according to sadhana, then you would consider this is not the ideal form. Because
that time in the morning is the best time for chanting and doing all these things, and these
kind of things should be later. Things that can be done later in the day do them, because the
sadhana doesn’t go so well. After breakfast in the morning people start thinking of the
service and occupation and other worldly activities, so then that time it’s not so good. But
this time in the morning then those who are interested in sadhana are performing it. Those
who are not are asleep. So the environment is not disturbed by the mode of passion.
Therefore it’s the best time. So as far as sadhana goes it’s better to do it this way. That’s why
it’d be recommended that all these things are done in the afternoon. According to Manu a
brahmana would do these things in the afternoon. Some time after lunch, after a little rest,
before the sunset, that’s the time when he would do these activities.
Devotee (1): Could it be that a person maybe sincerely inclined is using this period because
he is very inspired through the email and all that.
Maharaja: He is very inspired to do the email, but the thing is he is thinking that this is the
only time to do, so it’s still a vaidhi. Because now it’s become the vaidhi that after mangala-
aratika and tulasi-aratika and after lobbying with a few friends about today’s meetings, then
you go back to your room and do your email. It’s a sadhana.
But my point is the angle is vaidhi. So then the difficulty comes with the same angle is if
somebody makes any mistake in their devotional service, especially if it is sensual or
something moral, then they are not engaged in devotional service, they are not a brahmana,
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they never were, that kind of stuff, these are all coming from the lowest end of vaidhi-
sadhana. Because if you are dealing with raganuga-sadhana then you’d be looking what’s the
mood, what’s the intention. So the prominent thing is what you look at. They are engaged
all day in their devotional activities, but they have this weakness in this one area. So that
weakness does not become the prominent element. But for someone in vaidhi-sadhana then
he won’t be able to see, he’ll think, the whole devotional service is spoiled because of this
weakness. But it’s interesting to note, because it’s a form, and it’s a form that is dealing with
morality. And some of them who are more pious then is dealing with religion. But in any
case it’s the form, if they are not following this then devotional service is not seen as more
powerful, it’s not the powerful element, it’s the form of the sadhana that’s the power.
So what they are missing here is that this person is not engaged in devotional service,
but this mentality is also not devotional, because it’s actually karma-mimamsa. Because of
the performance of the activity therefore I get my result. Rather than I perform the activity,
that pleases Krsna, therefore I am getting a result. It’s not that I am going to mangala-aratika
that makes my day good, it’s because I going to mangala-aratika to please Krsna that makes it
good. So that’s the devotional element. So that’s a form. Because otherwise going to
mangala-aratika any asrama in India they go to mangala-aratika. Four, five in the morning
they are all ringing their bells and doing this and that and singing songs, they are all doing
it, every asrama, but it’s not devotional service unless it’s for Krsna’s pleasure.
So these are fine points, because they are overlapping, that’s why it becomes confusing.
We are pointing it out so that we are aware that the form is important, but it’s also
important to see the mood. Just like let’s say the new person, they have just come in contact
with devotional service, so they come to the temple three times a week, take prasada, go to
the aratika, when they have time sitting in the class, and on the weekends sometimes they
come by and help with some service. Now how will you view that? Would you view that as
positive, as dynamic? Yes, you’ll say this is really good, he is really inspired. But if you think
about it, how much is he actually engaged? He comes for an hour and a half three days a
week sometimes on the weekend. So you are looking at five, six hours a week that they are
engaged. The rest of the time they are living a lifestyle the way they were before they
contacted devotional service.
Now let us take someone who is established in devotional service, and let’s say we
reverse that. They are engaged in their devotional activities very nicely all day, but they are
weak in certain areas, and so for six hours of that week they are not really engaged nicely in
devotional service. Which are we going to see?
The one person that only six hours of devotional service and we say they are a fabulous
devotee. The other person there is only six hours they are not doing devotional service we’ll
say they are in maya, they are nonsense, rip them out of the position, send them to the
moon, some place else other than here.
So this is because we are seeing only the form. In the new person that’s coming we are
looking they are doing devotional activities, but we are looking at the mood. They are
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enthusiastic and all that, so we say this is great. But when we are dealing with other, we are
not looking at the mood.
So these are the things that come up from this, these are the elements that generally
aren’t discussed in relationship to the vaidhi and raga. It’s just a matter of whether you are
reading about the gopis or not.
Devotee (2): Also in this kind of situation we also judge on the standard of the person itself
or himself. For example a new devotee comes, so then it’s a new devotee, so therefore don’t
expect from him that much. Otherwise the senior devotee therefore we expect much more
from him.
Maharaja: Yes, but that’s we are expecting. But are we the standard of devotional service.
We are the authority of what’s devotional service. We expect. But who are we to expect?
Devotee (2): …Krsna.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s Krsna, and Krsna is sitting in the heart waiting. It’s like somebody does
something wrong in devotional service we don’t want to see their face, and we think this is
very strict and very situated in devotional service. Krsna, whether someone is engaged in
devotional service or not sits in their heart 24/7 for unlimited lifetimes. That’s the
difference. Krsna never at any time sees the living entity not as His devotee. Because the
fact is the soul is the devotee. But it’s a matter of whether one realizes that or practices that
or not. That’s why Krsna constantly in the Gita and in the Bhagavatam, any of the
literatures, is constantly mentioning that one should see like that. Because you want to be
with Krsna then you have to see like Krsna sees. Just like you want to be in Vraja you have
to see like the Vrajavasis. So the point is what’s in Vraja? Why are the Vrajavasis in Vraja?
They just like it there, it’s a forest, rural environment, you have to be natural, organic, that’s
what it is, they get all their organic vegetables, the cows are free-ranging so the milk is of
good quality. You go to the city then you can’t get all those nice things. Is that why the
Vrajavasis are in Vrndavana?
Devotee (2): Because they want to be with Krsna.
Maharaja: Yes, so they want to be with Krsna. So who is in Vraja?
Devotee (3): Krsna.
Maharaja: Krsna, that’s why they are there. So the whole point is to be with Krsna. Were did
we start? Where were we?
Devotee (2): My question was the standard…
Maharaja: Yes, so if we want to be with Krsna we have to also think like Krsna thinks. So if
Krsna thinks all the living entities are His, so we also have to think like that. But if we don’t
think like that, oh, this person has done this, therefore they go into this category, that’s
actually the mode of passion. We are thinking it’s standard solid devotional service, it’s the
mode of passion, because then you think the soul is impure. Here is a pure soul, here is an
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impure soul. So we don’t mean by their actions, we actually mean that the 1/10000 of the tip
of the hair is impure. Rather than the soul is only covered. Because in actuality every soul is
as pure as the other, it’s just covered. So depending upon the covering that’s what you deal
with. So if the covering is very impure, then you have to deal in that. If the covering is pure,
then you deal in that way. So that’s rasa, that’s how Krsna deals. Someone is a devotee, He
reciprocates like that. Someone is not a devotee, He reciprocates with whatever how they
see Him in the non-devotional attitude. He is equal with everyone, but He is more favorable
towards the one who acts out of love, because that’s the natural position. The parent has
affection for all the children but that child that shows that affection there is naturally
something more, they like being with them.
Devotee (1): Can we adopt that from our person, the law of creation…of what is developed
before, and then this is the parameter for our association?
Maharaja: Is a parameter for our association, means how much they see the creation
connected to creation. Yes, it could be easily one. Means there is so many ways to try to
observe one’s devotional development. So that would be one way. Other is how much he is
absorbed in the holy name, or how forgiving he is, there is many, any of the qualities are
there. So these are symptoms by which one can see the primary symptom.
Devotee (1): Prabhupada had mentioned that written in an article how many times the…
Maharaja: Yes, the article is good. Yes, so it wasn’t like how expertly it’s written, but how
much Krsna is there.
So he is pointing out that the babaji he sees that it’s important to follow all these, that’s
why he is doing it. So he says, you are in vaidhi-sadhana. But now he is aware that raganuga
is there. Being aware of it doesn’t put you in that position. But it puts you in the position to
move towards it. If you don’t know something is there you won’t make any endeavor.
Babaji: You can now see that the scriptures’ rules and regulations are the ruler of your
mind. Therefore you should engage in vaidhi bhakti. Gradually the spiritual love that is
raganuga bhakti will manifest in your heart.
And he says the love that’s raganuga-bhakti, he doesn’t say the not following the rules.
Means the rules are ruling. So there is a difference between you are doing because the rules
are important or you are doing the rules because that’s what pleases Krsna. The form won’t
change. That’s what’s important.
Hearing these words, Lahiri Mahasaya, his eyes now filled with tears, touched the
babaji’s feet and said, “Please be merciful and engage me as I am qualified. I am not able to
understand my own qualifications.” The saintly babaji then embraced him and made him sit
down again.
Lahiri: Please clearly order me, and I will thus engage in devotional service.
Now this please clearly order me, this is because he wants to be engaged in devotional
service, it’s not a very pleasant tactic how to get attention. In other words, you go to the
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spiritual master, oh, spiritual master, please guide me. Ok, chant Hare Krsna, see that you
are engaged in everything like this and that. No, but do you have something specific just for
me that absolutely no other Vaisnava in the universe has, just my own. That’s about
yourself, that’s now what Lahiri Babu is doing. He just wants to know what to do. It’s not
that he is trying to get it out into just his own, own special, my own emotional. So he says, I
don’t know my qualification, give me directions. Because otherwise that’s the point where it
goes beyond, then it’s about yourself, it’s not about devotional service. Devotional service
means how you are engaged in the Lord’s service. So the point is it’s about the relationship
with Krsna, so you and Krsna what’s the relationship. But this other it’s about yourself, what
is special for me. So you have to be careful of that one. Because each soul is unique, each
soul is special, so how you are going to apply that that would be unique. But to discuss it
simply from the platform of how you can get that little bit of extra I am special and different
from everyone else then that’s not so important.
Babaji: You should chant the holy names of Lord Hari. Taking shelter of the holy names
is the most powerful of all kinds of devotional service. The name of the Lord and the Lord
Himself are not different. By offenselessly chanting the holy names one quickly attains all
spiritual perfections. Therefore with great faith you should chant the holy names. By again
and again chanting the holy names, one engages in all nine kinds of devotional service. By
chanting the holy names aloud one engages in sravanam (hearing) and kirtanam (chanting).
As one chants the holy names one will naturally remember (smaranam) the pastimes of Lord
Hari, and in one’s mind one will serve His feet (pada-sevanam), worship Him (arcanam),
offer obeisances to Him (vandanam), serve Him (dasyam), think of Him as a friend
(sakhyam) and surrender everything to Him (atma-nivedanam). In this way one engages in
all nine activities of devotional service.
So this is the meaning, when the acaryas are saying that by chanting it includes all the
others. So whenever the acaryas make these statements they are actually scientific. So he is
saying by doing that one will chant because then we’ll see the name and the Lord is non-
different, so then one will be thinking of services, one will be thinking of mood towards Him
of friendship, or servitorship, surrender. These things naturally come in the chanting. It’s
not just a packed little answer to get people not to be distracted by other things. Somebody
wants to do this particular kind of service, so then temple president just, oh, just Hare Krsna
includes everything else, we don’t have to worry about this, because the president doesn’t
want to make these kind of arrangements. It’s not one of those kind of statements. The
statement is meant for that it includes all the others. So if one is attracted by the others one
can do, but the main is the chanting, that’s the main thing, it will actually create all the
others.
Devotee (4): Does it mention that there has to be a quality of the chanting in order for all
those things to manifest?
Maharaja: Quality, he mentions offenseless, then he says all spiritual perfections come.
Because the point is you have name, form, qualities, and pastimes. So this is a natural order.
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So in the beginning one is chanting one is only hearing the name, because that’s all one
understands from the sound vibration, you understand this is Krsna’s name. But with time
one becomes purified then the name means the form. And as that deepens then it means
Krsna’s qualities. And when that gets to the topmost platform it means His pastimes. So it’s
as one understands Krsna, one has a relationship with Krsna, one develops that affection for
Krsna, then naturally these stages come. That’s why it’s like you sit and try to remember a
particular deity or photograph while you are chanting, it doesn’t always work, because we
may be at the platform of something below form.
But when we chant, just like if I say, let us say I say Bhakti-caru Maharaja, then what
immediately happens when I say the name. You see the form. Now if you know him more,
then you’ll think of him and his qualities, his gentleness and all this and that, or if you are
even more involved, then you think of him and his Ujain project. That’s the point, the
association, how well you know the person. But if I say, Elmor Kadittelheimer, then what
happens? You just heard a name and that’s it.
Devotee (2): Is he tasty?
Maharaja: I don’t know. You probably have to ask the crododiles that actually got to hold of
him.
So it doesn’t mean anything to you. If I say, that’s because he is a kajon in the bayou in
Louisiana, does it mean anything to you? It’s still only names. Now to him that means a lot.
Now he has already seen qualities, pastimes. He can already see his funny, floppy ears, his
wards and this and that, him out there trying to catch frogs. He has got all that because that
means something to him.
So that’s the whole point, by offenselessly chanting then all these things come along
very, very quickly. Because you have offensive chanting, so one is going to be situated in the
name. But by trying to chant without offenses then it comes to what Prabhupada calls the
clearing stage. So in that clearing stage then things start to move very quickly. Because one
is not so much, basically it means, in other words, one’s determination is not to commit the
offenses. So it’s moving forward very fastly. And so then very quickly one very quickly
comes to the offenseless stage where one is not committing, one is conscious and one is
trying to please Krsna, so one is avoiding all offenses. So that will bring all spiritual
perfections. That will bring you to the platform of bhava. Offenseless chanting will bring
you to the platform of bhava. But then by association you’ll get to prema.
So Prabhupada mentions by one’s own and everything then you can actually elevate
yourself to the platform of asakti. But bhava means it’s only by the grace of Krsna and His
devotees that one comes to there. So that continual offenseless chanting that will give.
Because that will come when one has a taste for the holy name in ruci, then naturally it
moves forward very quickly. Because before that one is doing it because one has to. But
when it comes to the point of taste, then that’s where you see it becomes spontaneous.
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So we also we’ll see the spontaneity also has its development. You spontaneously like to
do the activities of devotional service. So it will create then that inspiration to move
forward. But it’s mainly based on the affection, the particular kind of affection.
Because it’s just like prasada, generally most everybody unless they are a natural food
freak or something, they have a spontaneous attraction to prasada. They just like prasada.
So that’s actually spontaneous. But the point is it’s isolated in that it’s only in connection
with that. It doesn’t reflect a generic mood of affection towards Krsna. So even though that
aspect is spontaneous it still hasn’t come to that platform. But when it’s like you like prasada
because it’s Krsna, then you can say, now you are talking about raganuga in its natural state.
But when it’s just you like prasada, you like going to mangala-aratika because you like
mangala-aratika, you have to go not, it’s the rule or not you don’t care, so that is an aspect
you can say of raganuga-sadhana. So you are connected to those activities connected to
Krsna. But it doesn’t actually become dynamic until it’s directly connected to Krsna. You
like going to mangala-aratika not just because of the experience and the mood, but because
it’s Krsna.
So this mistake will also be made by many of these so-called raganuga sadhakas, because
they’ll say unless it’s that love and all these things like that and it manifests in a particular
way it’s not. But the point is when you start getting a glimmer of light in the morning do you
call it the day is coming? Or do you just say, no, it’s night, until the sun comes up it’s not
day. Who will say that? Only someone who is really, really attached to rules. So these so-
called raganuga sadhakas most of them are real dyed in the wool vaidhi sadhakas. But they
don’t even know it. They don’t know the philosophy enough that they are so situated in
vaidhi-sadhana, because they will say you have to do like this, you have to read these things,
you have to take these up, you have to do this practice. They’ll tell you right to your face,
you have to do. Why do you have to do? That’s vaidhi. Your mind is ruled by the rules and
regulations. You can now see that the scriptures’ rules and regulations are the ruler of your
mind.
Devotee (1): One example of challenging their concept of this pseudo raganuga would be
the pure chanting of Ajamila…
Maharaja: Yes, the pure chanting of Ajamila. Yes, he wasn’t following anything, he just
chanted, but it was offenseless. Therefore then it has effect.
The point is we have to have faith it’s the name. It would be like this, you are sitting in a
desert and you are very thirsty, so you have created a very large mirage. There is a mirage
there and in your mind there is this whole thing happening. So it doesn’t matter how big it
is one other element that’s not part of that mirage is more real than the mirage.
So that’s the point the holy name is more powerful than anything. If we say, oh, he is so
sinful, he can’t do this and that, we are saying that the sin actually has substance, when it’s
the holy name has substance. Sin has no substance. Sin is only dealt with because the person
thinks it’s substance. That’s the whole point. But it’s not that it has any real meaning.
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The person is there and sees, oh, there is a coconut tree here and I am so thirsty, so then
the person who is dealing with them in this state. They want a coconut what are you going
to tell them? They sincerely think there is a coconut tree in front of them in this desert and
it’s got coconuts on it. So what do you tell them to do? Because they can’t see anything else.
Devotee (4): Try and drink it.
Maharaja: Yes. So how to do that? How do you get that coconut? You have to go up to the
tree, climb the tree, pick the coconut, come down, open the coconut, drink the coconut. So
is that any different than if there was a real tree actually there? No. That’s the point.
Devotional service is no different than if it’s here or it’s there. In Vraja they don’t have
families? There is no husbands and wives, there is no children? They don’t have kitchens,
they don’t have bedrooms? No, they have all that. But that’s real, because it’s all in
connection to Krsna. Here it’s an illusion.
So the first thing is be aware of what illusion you are dealing with. Be conscious of
actually what it is. Then follow the process that is the natural process for engaging in that
activity whether it’s illusory or real. Because the real thing is now, let us say, in illusion he
goes up to that coconut tree, climbs the coconut tree, picks the coconut, brings it down,
opens the coconut, offers the coconut to Krsna and drinks it. So was that devotional service
or was it not? What was it? It was devotional service, even though technically what he was
dealing with was pure illusion. So what makes it real, what makes it valuable? That he
properly climbed the coconut tree from the correct side and all that? No, it’s because he
connected it to Krsna.
So the man, that’s already an illusory concept, goes to his house, another illusory
concept, meets his wife, another illusory concept, they exchange greetings and all that. So
where is reality? It’s only reality if you see that in connection to Krsna. This house is for
Krsna, the interaction with the family members is connected to Krsna, we engage our body,
mind, and words in Krsna’s service. That’s what the process is. It’s because we take the
illusion so seriously therefore we deal with all these things.
Very thirsty in illusion man A and very thirsty in illusion man B, now man A’s coconut
tree is about 20 feet tall and it’s got about 10 coconuts on it, but man B his coconut tree is
about 50 feet tall and it’s got about 100 coconuts on it and they are twice as big as the other
ones. So is this a better illusion? How do you engage better illusion? So in the same way how
do you engage more sinful or less sinful? It’s actually what is going to distract you from Krsna
more. That’s the point. It’s not that the illusion has any value. It’s how much it’s going to
distract you from Krsna. So therefore its intensity is greater, its reactions are greater,
therefore its ability to distract you from actual devotional service is greater, that’s the
problem. Because otherwise the illusion doesn’t have any meaning. Oh, this person did this.
But it’s illusion. The point is it’s a distraction from Krsna consciousness, so the correction is
what is going to make them become Krsna conscious. Not that, oh, he came up and he stole
a coconut off my illusory coconut tree, therefore he has to be punished. No, the point is is he
offering it to Krsna? Is it connected to Krsna? That’s the main thing. And if that’s your tree,
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that’s your illusory tree to engage in devotional service, he’s got his own tree. So why he
should be climbing up your tree? He already has one. Because otherwise this person is
distracted from his devotional service because he thinks…his tree.
So the point of this is to show ulimately that it’s simply the chanting of the holy name is
the real thing. Because otherwise it will be, oh, unless we are politically correct or unless our
communication department is really good and we have those interfaith dialogues, or we are
established that, yes, nice people that do welfare work, devotional service won’t move
forward. It has nothing to do with any of this.
It’s simply your faith in chanting the holy name, the quality of your association with
Vaisnavas, that’s all that actually matters. Everything else is to engage your nature. You like
hanging out with criminals, then you go to criminal prison preaching. You like to sell things,
then go out on the street and sell stuff for Krsna, sell books, sell paraphernalia. The point is
to be engaged.
Devotee (1): Our capacity to engage the illusory existene into Krsna consciousness is for
example proportionate to our state of realization, in the same way, the concentration or the
chanting or with any way of distraction, this is self-analysis, can be one’s analysis of
position.
Maharaja: It can be. Means one would say one could have the effect. Means the better one is
the chanting naturally one will be better at engaging people according to their conditioned
nature. But it also can be just due to piety one can engage people because one can see it. So
in other words, you can see the various stations within the varnasrama how that social
system works, you can engage people, whether you are, just like Hindus may not be very
advanced in devotional knowledge. But they know certain of the system, but because of the
lack of spiritual knowledge then they deal with asuric varnasrama as opposed to daiva. So
they don’t understand how devotional service is the point. They only get you to properly,
who is qualified to climb the coconut tree and how to do it, but offering it to Krsna that part
is left out. So therefore they dealt with the illusion very nicely, but it’s still an illusion. It’s
useless, because it wasn’t connected to Krsna. Because the point is this person keeps
climbing that tree and offering those coconuts to Krsna. After a while he starts to see Krsna
and then the illusion disappears. But it’s replaced by the real situation, which is Krsna and
His pastimes. So they can go together.
In other words, it’s a natural state that someone who is chanting would be pious, because
with time it will come anyway. But at the same time, it’s not necessarily that they have to
manifest in that way. Like the 26 qualities of a devotee, that surrender to Krsna is the
quality that makes them a devotee. The other 25 qualities may or may not be manifest. Like
Bhima is not known for humility. But he is only doing all those things for Krsna. It’s either
for Krsna or for Krsnä. Krsnä is a devotee of Krsna, so therefore it works. So you don’t see
that quality manifest, but you see it in Yudhisthira. You see it in Arjuna. So all these
different qualities, they may or may not be manifest according to the particular personality
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and pastime and situation and all those different things. But the surrender to Krsna, that’s
the common element, that will always be there.
So in the same way, someone may be, you have devotees they are very advanced, they
may understand or not understand varnasrama, technically it doesn’t really matter. If they
understood it, it would make social development a lot easier. But if they don’t, it doesn’t
mean that chanting won’t develop and go on. But now if they reduce the importance of
chanting that’s a problem.
Just think about it, any movie, the karmi movies that the devotees are in, what are they
doing? Chanting, they are on harinama. So how foolish would it be that our leadership
would think doing harinama is not sophisticated and this and that and would give a bad
impression? Because such a good impression, people included in their multi-million dollar
movie, there is a problem. Not understanding varnasrama that’s just a small minor thing.
But actually reducing the faith in chanting that is a serious problem. Because then you
actually start thinking your illusion is real. Rather than that illusion is based on actual
reality. Why do you see a coconut tree in your hallucination, because there is an actuall
coconut tree. That’s why. So it’s not that you replace that illusory coconut tree, then you
wake up, and then you are in the material world where you are dealing with real coconut
trees, that would be a mistake. No, your illusory goes away, and when you wake up, you are
dealing on the spiritual world. Because we take it that the material world actually has
substance when it has no substance. So there is not this in-between stage. Because what is
that in-between stage. Where does that come from? There is the sinful man, and then he
gives up the sin, then he is righly situated, then where does he go? To the heavenly planets,
which is just a nice place here, it’s not actually spiritual. So there is an illusion that there is
something in-between. So same, the heavenly planets are in-between, the brahmanjyoti is
in-between. So these are the two distractions, karma and jnana. (end of lecture) (end)
February 23, 2010

Maharaja:
Lahiri: My heart is very eager to receive the holy names. O master, please be merciful.
Please don’t delay any further.
Babaji: O great soul, without committing offenses, you should always chant this mantra:
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna
Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare.
As he chanted these words again and again, the saintly babaji placed in Lahiri
Mahasaya’s hands a string of tulasi beads. Weeping, Lahiri Mahasaya again and again
chanted the holy names on these beads. He said, “O master, I cannot express the happiness I
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feel today.” Overcome with happiness, Lahiri fell unconscious at the babaji’s feet. The
saintly babaji carefully picked him up. After a long time Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Today I am
fortunate. Never before have I been so happy.”
Babaji: O great soul, you are fortunate, for you have faithfully accepted the holy names.
Thus you have made me fortunate also.
From that day Lahiri Mahasaya chanted the holy names on those beads. Without fear he
stayed in his cottage and chanted the holy names. Some days passed in this way. Lahiri
Mahasaya wore the twelve tilaka marks. He did not eat anything but krsna prasadam.
Everyday he chanted two lakhs of the holy names of Lord Hari. He would always offer
dandavat obeisances to the paramahamsa babaji before attending to other duties. He always
served his spiritual master. He was not attracted to useless gossip or non devotional music.
He was not the same Lahiri Mahasaya. Now he was a Vaisnava.
One day he offered dandavat obeisances to saintly Vaisnava dasa Babaji and asked, “O
master, what is the final spiritual goal (prayojana)?”
Babaji: Pure love for Lord Krsna (Krsna-prema) is the final spiritual goal for the
individual soul. Again and again performing the duties of sadhana-bhakti, one attains the
state of bhava (ecstasy). When bhava becomes complete and reaches its perfection, it is
called prema (pure spiritual love). That is the individual soul’s eternal nature, his eternal
wealth, his highest goal. The absence of this love is the greatest calamity. It means bondage
in the material world. It means the attempt to enjoy with the material senses. Nothing is
higher or better than this spiritual love (prema). Lord Krsna Himself is controlled by this
love alone. This love is purely spiritual. It is filled with the most intense spiritual bliss.
Lahiri (weeping again and again): Will I ever be qualified to attain this spiritual love?
Babaji (embracing him): Look, and in a few days your sadhana-bhakti will become bhava
bhakti. A few days after that Lord Krsna will certainly be merciful to you.
Overcome with joy to hear this, Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Ah, aside from the spiritual
master, nothing is important. My spiritual master has mercifully rescued me from the blind
well of material sense gratification.”
So here he is establishing then that sadhana is your practice, but this prema is the goal.
And so actually material existence means lack of prema, that is what establishes it. It’s not
something else. We can become distracted, just as we are distracted by the material energy.
We are distracted from thinking that it’s simply the offenseless chanting of the holy name
and developing love for Krsna, the lack of this is the basis of all our problems. So that’s then
being established here so that we understand that if this is our focus, then we actually we’ll
find we are not distracted, because other things aren’t so important. They are maybe
important but they are in support of of this. We can’t let anything else distract us from this
principle. Otherwise then we’ll miss the point. Because the material world has a lot of
variety in it and we’ll be distracted by that variety, and being distracted we’ll forget what’s
the actual purpose.
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And at the same time, being in the spiritual world one also can get distracted by what’s
there and miss the point that it’s love for Krsna, it’s absorption in Krsna’s name, form,
qualities, and pastimes. That’s the practice in bhava, bhava-bhakti is also known as bhava-
sadhana, that the practice that one is in the spiritual world with one’s spiritual form but one
can get distracted by the niceties that are there. You are not dealing with the temporary
material energy, you are dealing with the eternal spiritual energy. But you can still get
distracted by it. It’s important to note this. Generally in good association with proper
practice this won’t happen. But it’s still the warning must be said just so that we are aware to
be properly focused.
Devotee (1): No.
Maharaja: It doesn’t make sense.
Devotee (1): Well, it makes two senses.
Maharaja: Two senses, ok, not five senses. Then there is the mind and that’s considered the
eleventh sense.
Devotee (1): We are sensitive.
Maharaja: Ah, yes, that was also a point, we see how Lahiri Mahasaya and Babaji, how they
are interacting, it is very sensitive. So we can see here that sensitivity can be there as part of
the culture and is not considered weakness. It’s symptom of spiritual development is not
toughness. It’s sensitivity actually.
Devotee (1): So under that existence of full sensitivity in the spiritual world I say that could
be interpreted in two ways in this assessment of being distracted, because there is the
spiritual world Goloka Vrndavana and Gokula Vrndavana. Could you elaborate if it is the
same mood of distraction and how the interaction with the Lord happen in both of them?
Maharaja: Ok, the difference between Goloka and Gokula.
Devotee (1): Because the same state of consciousness will be there regarding distraction also.
But one, anyway, could you elaborate on this.
Maharaja: Basically, means there is a difference and there is no difference. That’s the thing,
as far as the spirituality goes, its superior position, there is no difference between the two,
it’s just the situation where it is. Just like we have a temple here in Mayapur, we have a
temple in Vrndavana, but spiritually there is no difference, it’s just a different situation. So
the same position is Goloka is extended into the material world, where then we have the
pastimes Gokula.
The difference between it you can say in consciousness is for the eternal associates it’s
no different. But in Gokula those who haven’t attained the same nature as the eternal
servants they don’t go to Goloka. In other words, there is the position where one can be in
the spiritual world in one’s spiritual body engaged in spiritual activities but not have prema,
that’s bhava, that’s the bhava-sadhana. That’s in Gokula. Then by that practice, that bhava-
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sadhana, one comes to the platform of prema. When one’s come to that platform, or love for
Krsna, then one is qualified to go to Goloka. So in Goloka the minimum standard there is
prema. So depending upon what rasa they are in, they go to different stages. There is ten
levels of prema, so the budding stage is bhava, but that’s only seen in Gokula. In Goloka it’s
prema on up, it’s the other seven. So depending on the rasa, then they are at different
stages.
So what we are saying about being distracted at bhava, then as being a practice one is
trying to come to the point of being completed absorbed in Krsna and there is nothing else
important to you than Krsna, and by associating with the advanced devotees then one
comes to that platform of prema. But if one does not take seriously this aspect, then one can
be distracted just by the niceties of the spiritual world. The spiritual world is nice.
It’s like we think this place in its natural state it is nice, and this is only a reflection. Just
like let’s say the tree in the water, it looks nice. But the actual tree looks even nicer. You can
interact with it, there is so much happening. So the point is just as Rupa Goswami mentions
that first point is to become conscious. Then in that consciousness be Krsna conscious.
Then in that Krsna conscious be favorable. And then that favorableness is free from karma
and jnana.
Devotee (1): In Goloka Vrndavana there is no such a thing.
Maharaja: In Goloka means all these four are present in their fullness. But in bhava-sadhana
means one is conscious, one is Krsna conscious, but the thing is to what degree that
favorableness, that degree of Krsna conscious, that is the point. From here when we say that,
oh, what level, we shouldn’t think that, oh, it’s just someone like here. No, you are talking
about people who are liberated and who are absorbed in Krsna. So they are very advanced.
They are uttama-adhikaris. But within uttama-adhikari then they have to come to the
platform of prema. So before that happens then having a spiritual form one has a family,
one has a position in the society, one has duties, one can get distracted by those. And so one
is so absorbed in properly performing one’s duties. Ane there is no difficulty there, there is
no pains and distractions in that way. So that can be a distraction in itself that it’s so nice.
Because the element of karma is there, you perform your activities, it’s a nice result. Very
subtle. Because we are not talking about karma from here, we are just talking about the
fragrance still being left.
The example is given, you take a box of hing, you throw out the hing, wash the box. It
still smells like hing. There is no hing, but it still smells like that. So on the platform of
bhava, the beginning stages of it, then there is no conditioned nature, but the fragrance of
that conditioned nature is still present. So one has to be careful that one doesn’t become
distracted by the niceties of the spiritual world or thinking that one is advanced or one is a
devotee. So these elements then these are what make the difference.
So that is the technically you can say, that is the tatastha position. From that position,
because you are not in the material world, but you are not on the platform of prema. In
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other words, you have not inherited your position. The fifth stage of bhava-sadhana is
inheritance, means it’s yours. Just like the child when he is born into the family his father’s
wealth is his wealth, but until he inherits it it’s not actually his to use.
So the first three stages of bhava-sadhana basically is becoming absorbed fully in Krsna
consciousness. Once one has fully been absorbed, then one’s association with the eternal
associates becomes extremely dynamic. So in that stage one is absorbed like the others but
one hasn’t come to that maturity. And so it’s a matter of time they will come.
Devotee (1): When the manifestation of the spiritual world, of course, whether the devotee
has to continue the training in the spiritual world just to enter into Goloka.
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (1): The distraction still could be in Goloka but within the parameter of yoga-maya.
Maharaja: The instruction.
Devotee (1): The distraction.
Maharaja: The distraction by Goloka, because there is no difference, you won’t be distracted
by Goloka. You are distracted by this internal potency.
Devotee (1): I verbally misplaced. I meant to say the distraction within the pastime in order
for the rasa the devotee gets distracted, Krsna then takes care. Whereas here it’s maya that
takes care of the devotee’s distraction.
Maharaja: Means the devotee getting distracted, the Lord will take care, you do have that
element, but it would be a different kind of distraction. There it would be, the only thing
that you hear about because they are on the platform of prema they are always absorbed in
Krsna, so they are not tatastha any more, they are in the fire of the internal potency.
Devotee (1): In Bhagavad-gita in one purport Prabhupada explained how Arjuna is
distracted.
Maharaja: Yes, but that’s also by the arrangement of yoga-maya. But the element is that the
only thing one has to be careful in the spiritual world is Vaisnava-aparadha. But the general
speaking is before it will happen Krsna will intervene. Because the reason that two different
devotees have a difference of opinion that there might be an argument is simply on how to
serve Krsna, not serving Krsna, not Krsna Himself. So as soon as Krsna intervenes they both
become absorbed in Krsna, so there is no disturbance there. So if that does happen, Krsna
will intervene.
We see in the case of Jaya and Vijaya He came but just a moment late, means He could
have come earlier but He came that moment late because Jaya and Vijaya actually wanted to
render the service of fighting with Krsna. So therefore He came just after they got cursed.
But He could have come that few seconds earlier before. So that’s what He generally would
do. But in this case then He came later just so that pastime could take place.
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So the point is if you are seeing, means you have to look at the fundamental. The
fundamental is absorption in Krsna’s energy without consideration of Krsna that is what we
would call illusory. So that is what we would call material existence. Means seeing Krsna in
everything, always everything reminds us and absorbs in Krsna, so any of Krsna’s energy
reminds of Krsna, that is the spiritual existence. We are not talking about location here. We
are just saying, material existence means not seeing Krsna in His energy, spiritual existence
means always seeing Krsna in His energy means favorably. So now you can say the full
manifestation of the material consciousness is in the material sphere, and the full
manifestitation of the spiritual consciousness is in the spiritual sphere. But when one is
transferring from one to the other, when one is making that decision both are there at the
same time. Because technically what you are dealing with is the cit-potency, or the svarupa-
sakti. The svarupa-sakti means the complete energy, that means it’s internal and external.
Internal potency, external potency is a detail of the svarupa-sakti, means it’s energy.
Just like electricity is the energy. Now whether it’s used to heat or whether to cool,
that’s a detail. So if it’s applied within the spiritual realm that’s one detail, and if it’s applied
within the material realm that’s another detail, but it’s actually the same. That’s why there
is no contradiction between Gokula being simultaneously spiritual existence and material
existence. It just depends upon you what you see. Just as one can be here in the material
existence and see everything spiritual like the six Goswamis. So in the same way, one can be
in that spiritual sphere and see everything mundane, like Aristasura or Aghasura.
So the point is it’s just a matter of if you are more qualified, then you are given the
chance to make that final decision within the spiritual environment. If you are less qualified
you make it within the material.
Devotee (1): When is that decision is made and the devotee receives the svarupa, then…
Maharaja: No, no, no, they have received the svarupa before that. This is the point. Svarupa
is a lower level, people talk about it like svarupa is way up there. It is compared to the
material. But it’s right at the bottom. It’s just liberation. Whenever you hear the word
perfection, perfection simply means liberation.
Devotee (1): Let’s say then we use the word siddha-deha in the sense of particular
manifested… Let’s take it a little step down in order to, the devotee already realized prema
but he still has to be trained…
Maharaja: No, but if he has realized prema then all your fundamental training is there.
Training goes on eternally of course, but one does not have to, purva-raga is within bhava,
purva-raga means that complete attachment and complete, that fullness of that attraction to
Krsna, that’s attained that is the junction between the third stage and the fourth stage of
bhava-sadhana, because the absorption, the third stage is smarana, or remembrance, it’s so
full, that one is so absorbed that one is totally attracted, that gives rise to apana-dasa, the
fourth stage, where then one is constantly in the association of Krsna and His eternal
associates. Before that you are only to some degree in absorption with Krsna’s associates.
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Devotee (1): The subject is so subtle that perhaps the country that has an embassy in the
rest of the world. The embassy legally is accepted as part of the country. The person decided
the embassy is in that country but in one sense also it’s not, because…
Maharaja: Yes, but he is there and not there in his spiritual body. That’s the difference.
While here we are in the spiritual world we are in our material body, but it is the spiritual
world, and you can see it and appreciate it within the material body. There you are in the
same place but in your spiritual body. And you are liberated, so you don’t see anything on
the mundane platform. So it’s all seen in connection with Krsna.
Devotee (1): The final element that the Mayavadi gets confused regarding the energies of
the Lord appears to be that they deny the field of activities of the energy.
Maharaja: Yes, well, they don’t actually see energy. They are only looking for energetic. But
the problem is if you have energetic, it means you have energy. It’s very simplistic, because
basically they want to be God. Once you remove yourself from the material platform, then
you come to the Brahman platform. That’s why that’s on the subtlest form one doesn’t think
one is God or His devotee. That’s where even the karma or jnana aspect, free from karma
and jnana is there within the platform of bhava-sadhana, but it’s so subtle.
So the point here is that one has to know that it’s love for Krsna that is the
determination in devotional service, not getting out of the material world, not being free
from sin, not perfecting the skill of your service. They are all important aspects, but they are
all subservient to the point of developing love for Krsna and interacting with Krsna on that
platform. That’s the actual position one is trying to get to. So one can’t be distracted by
anything other than that.
We see the gopis they were distracted because they were absorbed in their duties. They
are taking care of the children, or serving the husbands a meal, or doing something in the
house. So when Krsna plays the flute they are attracted they want to go, but their attraction
is not good enough to be able to be in the rasa dance, because they won’t be fully absorbed.
Means they are in the rasa dance thinking about, oh, are the kids asleep, no, it has to be
complete. So they are stopped, they are not allowed to go. Those who are almost on that
point of purva-raga, then being stopped that creates such an emotional response that
immediately burns up any fragrances of karma and jnana that are there from before, and
then they are immediately able to get out and go to the rasa dance. Those that aren’t then
they are stopped, and then in that separation they then get purified and come to that
platform that they don’t go that evening to the rasa dance, they go to the next one. So it’s a
subtle point. This is in Tenth Canto of Visvanatha, Cakravarti Thakura describes this.
Devotee (2): …favorable.
Maharaja: Being favorable. Means the simplest form is Kamsa is fully conscious of Krsna but
it’s not favorable. He is absorbed in Krsna, Visnu-smaranam, 24 hours a day, but it’s not
favorable. And then even we get it to the point where it’s favorable, but then it has to be
free from karma and jnana. In other words, just like devotees, everyone sitting here then
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their mentality of Krsna consciousness is favorable, but it doesn’t mean there won’t be some
element of karma and jnana that’s mixed with it that will make it not, it’s not to its best
standard. Because he is saying here that Krsna is controlled by that pure spiritual love. So
that means that since He is the supreme pure it would also have to be to that platform of
purity.
Devotee (2): Sometimes the gopis get angry with Krsna.
Maharaja: The gopis get angry with Krsna.
Devotee (2): So is that unfavorable?
Maharaja: Is that unfavorable, ok. Why are they getting angry with Krsna?
Devotee (2): He did something to upset them.
Maharaja: He did something to upset them. What did He do that upset them?
Devotee (2): …
Maharaja: Ok, so now what’s the problem if Krsna going with another gopi?
Devotee (2): Because they want Krsna themselves.
Maharaja: They want Krsna themselves. But why do they want Krsna themselves?
Devotee (2): …they have that love for Him.
Maharaja: That love for Him. Ok, so it’s a matter of expressing of love. So if Krsna is with
them they can express their love, if Krsna is with another gopi that other gopi is expressing
the love. What’s the problem? Because you want Krsna to be happy, so what does it matter?
Ah, so this is the hidden point, Radharani being the svarupa-sakti, means she is the
complete energy as Vraja-Krsna is the complete energetic, so that means every aspect of
Krsna’s personality Radharani has a counterpart for. Any other gopi is an expansion of her,
means they don’t have that completeness of all the counterparts. So depending upon who
they are then they have. Lalita will have almost as much. Visakha just a touch less than that.
Like this it will go down. So it’s a matter of on the absolute platform of more absolute or a
little less absolute, but still that little less absolute means Krsna enjoys that little bit less. So
they are being upset is because Krsna is not getting as much happiness as He could get if He
was with Radharani. If He is with another gopi, He can’t get as much happiness as if He was
with Radharani. So that’s what they are angry about.
So the external form of it looks exactly the same as in the material world. Krsna is off
with another gopi, so the girl that’s here gets due to out possessive attachment gets jealous
and gets angry. But the difference is there it’s 100% only worried about Krsna being happy.
Here the girl is angry she, one is, of course, the relationship she can’t share whatever it is,
but the point is that sharing that she gets a cut. That’s why in the material world it’s not
actually love, it’s attachment, and so it’s not actually love. But here just as a, I guess you
could say, a euphemism, we call extreme material attachment love. Because love is the need
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of the living entity, but that love is in connection with Krsna. So when our attachment is
something that is not Krsna, then we still call it love because it’s the need of the living
entity. But it actually it’s self-centered.
So that’s why the form of it here it looks exactly the same as in the spiritual world, the
way of dealing with it is exactly the same, but the quality of the rasa is vastly different.
That’s the point. That’s why one can see from spiritual activity what one is supposed to do
here. Means Krsna, when the gopi is upset and is angry with Krsna, Krsna never tells them,
get over it, stopped being trippy. He is humble, that’s the method. So it works in the spiritual
world, it works in the material world. Because it’s the same rasa, it’s just the quality of it, is it
transcendental rasa, is it emotional rasa, or is it sensual rasa, but rasa is one entity, it is not
different. Like the knife is cutting a potato or a cauliflower or a broccoli, the knife doesn’t
change, it’s the same knife, it’s just how you apply it to cut the different thing. So rasa is the
same.
So there it’s angry because they are not getting that element. Generally you only see
that anger in left wing gopis, you don’t see it in right wing, they don’t get angry like that.
They may get jealous, but they don’t get angry. But the left wing gets angry, but the left
wing is the position to get angry, because they are in the position to create superior pleasure
to Krsna, their rasa creates superior pleasure. Therefore then them getting angry has a
meaning. But the right wing doesn’t because their position is not as pleasing. But here we
are talking on the absolute platform, so it’s like different platforms of unlimited.
Devotee (3): Can you elaborate more on disagreements or Vaisnava-aparadha and how
Krsna interfers and helps to solve that disagreement.
Maharaja: No, it’s a matter of if there is a disagreement just by Krsna arriving then they are
going to forget all that, because it’s over about serving Krsna. But as soon as He arrives no
one even remembers the disagreement. So depending upon what is the nature of their
argument and who is arguing, then that kind of thing is extremely rare, the point is it could
happen, and if it does happen, Krsna will intervene. It’s not like it’s always going on. In
other words, that possibility is there, though basically it never happens.
Devotee (4): Lahiri Mahasaya gets a promise to get very quickly prema.
Maharaja: Very quickly prema, what do you mean?
Devotee (4): A few days.
Maharaja: A few days, but what platform is Vaisnava dasa Babaji working from?
Devotee (4): From the platform of his guru.
Maharaja: No, that’s his relationship, but what platform is Vaisnava dasa Babaji working on?
Mundane or spiritual?
Devotee (4): Spiritual.
Maharaja: Ok, now in spiritual then you are dealing with eternity.
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It’s just like this, however old you are now, think back about however many years it is,
how long does it seem? It’s a moment. So in another moment it will be over. So to say a few
days that’s a long time.
Devotee (4): I thought otherwise that Lahiri Mahasaya is so pure that he…
Maharaja: No, the thing is don’t do those things. You have to understand it’s poetics also. So
the point is, just like you say, it’s going to happen today or tomorrow. Does that mean it’s
going to happen either today or tomorrow, it won’t happen the day after that? No, it means
it’s either going to happen now or in the future. Tomorrow means the future. So after a few
days means in the future, but it’s not a long time, because being absorbed in the holy name
one is with Krsna and so one is very happy, so the time goes by very quickly.
It’s like this, some of the devotees that are around that joined in ’66, ’68, they have been
in the movement for over 40 years, but if you ask them it’ll have gone by very quickly. So
that’s the point, that’s after a few days. And if you want this book to be about 5 million
times bigger, so you can get around to the exact time when he got it. And you can look if
you have a quantum-physicist as a friend, he’ll have his universal time little digital clock and
then you can get the exact.
Devotee (5): What is the mentality of Candravali and her associates?
Maharaja: What is the mentality of Candravali and her associates? And why would you in
any reason want to know that? That would be like one of the associates of Obama, what is
Bin Laden like as a person?
Devotee (5): …interesting question also…
Maharaja: But why would they ask?
Devotee (5): They are trying to understand why he was doing things he was doing.
Maharaja: No, that’s they want to know politically why he does. But they are not interested
in is he a nice guy and he loves his daughter, that’s not a point of interest.
Devotee (6): Is Candravali also an expansion of Radharani?
Maharaja: Everybody is an expansion of Radharani. Means what would be the point?
Devotee (5): What was her mood of service to Krsna?
Maharaja: Mood of service is right wing. She is the head of the right wing. And Radharani is
head of the left.
Devotee (5): What do you mean by right?
Maharaja: Right wing means I am Krsna’s, left wing is Krsna is mine. It’s not something that
we, it’s not a question that even comes up. Means of the eight main gopis she is number two.
Means Radharani is one, she is two, Lalita is three, Visakha is four. Then Saivi and Bhadra,
five and six. Saiva and Bhadra are Candravali’s Lalita and Visakha. And that gets down to
six, and then I think it’s I am not sure if it’s Tara and, I can’t remember what’s the last one.
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Prabhupada mentions them in Nectar of Devotion. So she is there, but it’s still is not our
camp. We respect them, they are absorbed in Krsna, trying to please Krsna, but it still not
our line.
Devotee (5): …some lines worship Candravali?
Maharaja: You think she stands around alone or something? Being number two out of all the
thousands and millions of gopis she has nobody.
Devotee (5): In the Vaisnava lines.
Maharaja: We haven’t heard of any.
Devotee (1): Does she belong to Gaudiya Math?
Maharaja: Does she belong to the Gaudiya Math? I don’t think so, you don’t hear much
about them. Because the Gaudiya, she is mentioned, like Gopala Bhatta when he is doing
the vastu-puja on the mandala she’ll be mentioned, but if you are doing the Vaisnava homa
she is not mentioned, that’s the only place she is mentioned. So as a general position she is
not mentioned. That’s just the rule.
Devotee (5): Out of curiosity…
Maharaja: It’s like that, but you have to understand. You are approaching from the
intellectual platform, but your discussion is about rasa. So in rasa one is not, in other words,
intellectualization within the realm of rasa has no position. One intellectualizes about the
knowledge of rasa. So you can discuss what is the right wing, what’s left, what’s this and
that, but when you get down to the actual personages, then you have entered into
relationship and all that, and there you don’t get involved. In other words, the friend of
your friend is your friend, the enemy of your friend is your enemy. It’s just the way it is.
Devotee (1): Maharaja, Bhaktivinoda Thakura he mentioned the danger of rasabhasa. Can
you elaborate a little bit on…?
Maharaja: Rasabhasa, it basically just means you are mixing flavors within rasas. Like Rupa
Goswami gives an example of a gopi when she sees Krsna and then says, makes some
comment about Him being the Supreme Personality of Godhead and then runs over and
gives Him a hug. That’s rasabhasa. So there is a mix between the servitor and conjugal. So
that would be rasabhasa, when something doesn’t match.
Devotee (1): And in the material world?
Maharaja: Rasabhasa. Someone not acting within their position, a brahmana trying to
control everything, or a ksatriya not respecting and following the direction of a brahmana.
The vaisya trying to control everything with his money. The sudra thinking what he feels
everybody should know about. These are all rasabhasa. Because they are not understanding
their nature and their nature with someone else.
Devotee (1): And within the chanting of the holy name?
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Maharaja: Within the chanting of the holy name, basically the ten offenses, thinking the
name is ordinary, or it’s exaggeration. Someone will think it’s an exaggeration, but what
does that have to do with us? Generally it doesn’t, because actually to really think it’s
exaggeration one would actually have to have faith in sastra. and seeing their faith in sastra
isn’t necessarily your inborn quality of mlecchas and yavanas, it doesn’t actually strike one.
But the people who have faith in it, they see that the reason that it’s exaggeration is they
talk about the heavenly planets and this and that, how nice it is, amara deathless, all these
differen things, one will enjoy for a long time. So if one is bewildered by karma, one is
impressed by that. But if one has come to the platform jnana then the Upanisads point out
that deathless simply means you don’t die on the heavenly planet, you are kicked out first
and die outside. It’s just like, no one dies in this building, so if someone starts coughing and
holding their heart we chuck them out there in that drain, and then they die in the drain.
So then we can say, no one has died in this building. So that’s amara. So then one would
take that’s exaggeration. So then the jnani will think because it’s the element of rasa which
he is not so favorable towards, that when it’s talking about the greatness or the happiness of
chanting and all these things and how one name in namabhasa can destroy all the sins of
the universe, then one will say that’s exaggeration, that actually means one pure name. But
it doesn’t mean one pure name. A pure name will get you farther. A namabhasa will destroy
all the sins, because you are dealing with illusion. So Krsna’s name even namabhasa is still
Krsna’s name. The problem is not the name, the problem is us.
Like Krsna is standing on the altar, now some people may look at the altar and go nice
flower arrangements and not even notice the deity. And some people notice, wow, what are
these statues? But the point is Krsna is still Krsna anyway. So the name is Krsna, is svayam
Krsna. Näma cintämaëiù kåñëaç caitanya-rasa-vigrahaù, means it is. Now the problem is our
covering. Do we appreciate it’s Krsna? So because we don’t appreciate, He only reciprocates
that much, but it’s svayam Krsna. That’s the point. So Krsna is there, we deal with Him in a
certain way, He responds in that way. We go to Him, please give me this, give me that, then
that’s the relationship. We want to have affection for Him, that’s another aspect. So it’s still
rasa.
So therefore to say, oh no, it’s only a pure name, then that means you are saying that we
are the actual controller of it. Technically in a very distant form that’s slotavada. Because
karma-mimamsa means because I chanted it purely therefore it gets the result, but if I don’t
chant it purely it doesn’t get the result, because it’s me. No, it’s Krsna. It’s the opposite. This
is the problem, we are so used to karma and jnana, even in our day to day devotional life we
adhere to many problems very strongly.
So your rasabhasa will basically be the offenses because they are against the actual
relationship with the name.
Devotee (7): Some groups of the Vaisnavas they quote the Jaiva-dharma and also they say
that the living entity has never been in the spiritual world before.
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Maharaja: The living entity has never been in the spiritual world before, and why would you
say they have never been in the spiritual world?
Devotee (7): They say.
Maharaja: They say, but the point is if you are going to represent them then you should do a
good job. What do they mean by they have never been in the spiritual world?
Devotee (7): Ehm…
Maharaja: This is the problem. Neither you know nor do they know. How do you define
spiritual world?
Devotee (7): Eternal place.
Maharaja: Eternal place, so is Navadvipa eternal? Yes or no? Is Navadvipa eternal? We are
here in Navadvipa? Yes? Ok. So is this the spiritual world?
Devotee (7): Yes.
Maharaja: So then if you are saying the living entity was never in the spiritual world, you
are in the spiritual world right now. So how could you never be in the spiritual world? So
the problem is that it’s semantics arguing over the definition of what is the spiritual world,
and both parties their definition is not broad enough. Because what they both mean is in the
tripada within, and for us means in Goloka. So one party is saying we fell from Goloka and
the other party is saying we didn’t fall from Goloka. But the point is that’s not the full
definition of the spiritual world. This is the spiritual world. Gokula is the spiritual world.
And it’s because we can’t see that, therefore this is a problem for us. So to say one never falls
from Goloka that’s correct, but to say that one was never in the spiritual world that’s a
complete misunderstanding of the principle of tatastha-sakti.
So the point is both of them are wrong. It’s like two kids are sitting down and go, no, two
plus two is five. No, no, it’s seven. No, no, it’s five. No, it’s seven. Who is right? They are
both wrong, because they don’t know how to add. They don’t know what two is, so they
can’t put two two and get four. So that’s the problem, neither party knows what is the
spiritual world, therefore they argue over it. It’s not a point of arguing, it’s just a fact.
Krsna, is He in the spiritual world? When Krsna comes to Vrndavana and performs His
pastimes, is He in the spiritual world? Yes or no?
Devotee (7): Yes.
Maharaja: Yes. Ok, now Aristasura walks into the spiritual world. Is Aristasura coming in his
svarupa, his siddha-deha, his eternal spiritual form or is he coming with a mundane body?
Coming with a mundane body. He actually touches Krsna, he actually puts his foot on the
ground of Vraja. Is he in Vrndavana, is he in the spiritual world? Yes, physically. But is his
mentality in the spiritual world? No.
So that’s the point of the tatastha-sakti. The tatastha-sakti is that place where someone
who is mundane is in the spiritual world but absorbed in the material. And someone else
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who is absorbed in the spiritual they may be in that mundane location, but they are in the
spiritual world.
So the tatastha position means that it is transcendental, but it’s not devotional. So you
are transcendental to the mundane, but you are not devotional so you have gotten the right
to be in Goloka. That’s the point.
So it’s an overlap. And what the thing is we want to say spiritual means there can be no
mundane element. It means there is no mundane element, it’s only we see a mundane
element. But it doesn’t mean it can’t be situated within the material sphere. This rock is
made out of material energy, but what makes it mundane?
Devotee (7): When we use it for ourself.
Maharaja: Yes, and if we use it for Krsna, then it’s spiritualized. That’s tatastha-sakti, that
this rock could be spiritual or material, the same rock, that’s tatastha-sakti. So if it’s
empowered with the internal potency it’s spiritual, if it’s empowered with the material
potency it’s mundane. So that depends upon our consciousness. That’s tatastha-sakti. It’s
that realm in which you can choose whether to be spiritual or whether to be material.
Because if we say choice, now this rock here, I have a choice, why, because it can be either.
This rock I have a choice, because it can be either material or spiritual. So that’s the point.
That when you have voluntarily come to the point where you are not interested in the
material, you are only interested in the spiritual, then you can deal with direct spiritual
energy. And if you are not willing to deal with Krsna, then you deal directly with the
material energy. But for the living entity who is making the choice then that’s where the
tatastha-sakti puts them both together in the same place. So the reason that this rock could
be either spiritual or material is the tatastha-sakti. It’s the sakti that holds the two together
in one place at the same time. That’s Jaiva-dharma. So not understanding that point
therefore we have this argument.
Because the one will say, no, it’s mundane, the other will say, no, it’s spiritual. But the
point is it’s tatastha, it has both. Because the same side, not necessarily, but the problem is
they’ll say there can be no envy or bad qualities within the spiritual world. Yes, within
Goloka. But in Gokula there can be, because you have the potential for both, material and
spiritual.
Devotee (1): There is an element of perhaps when …two antagonist camps we may find
what may be in a more dangerous situation of consciousness, like still within the parameter
of the material world thinking that because I have been averse in my relationship with the
Lord in Goloka I am exactly where I know establishing my understanding intellectually…
and then ok, the Lord, prakrta-sahajiya.
Maharaja: It can, but then just as that will be sahajiya the other will be impersonalist.
Because the other is you are not actually accepting the spiritual world fully as the spiritual
world, so therefore you are not accepting that spiritual can actually have form technically.
So in other words, one is its weakness will be the sahajiya, the other will be the Mayavadi.
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So that’s actually where the argument comes, which is superior, Mayavada philosophy or
sahajiya. Is karma superior or is jnana superior?
Devotee (1): Then the synthesis obviously is really understanding that the two actually exist
simultanesouly one in Goloka and the other in Gokula.
Maharaja: That’s the main point. One has to understand. That’s why acintya-bhedabheda-
tattva that’s its point is that two things that are seemingly contradictory can exist in the
same place with no contradiction. It’s not a problem. Means as a basic Vedic principle that’s
given. The sastra is never contradictory. So therefore there is technically no argument. If
there is no points that don’t match then they’ll match if you go back a step.
Devotee (1): The ambiguity is in the observer, not in the sastra.
Maharaja: Yes, the ambiguity is in the observer, not in the sastra. So that’s why, you can
have, let’s say just having the other day, one devotee was having problem with the that
surya-siddhanta will say that sun is bigger than the moon, but Bhagavatam will say moon is
bigger than the sun. But there is not a problem, because what’s the perspective that surya-
siddhanta is taking, what’s the perspective Bhagavatam is taking? So depending upon its
purpose, therefore it’s going to have that effect. Because bigger we take it that it means
specifically size, but it can be bigger meaning in influence, it can be bigger on like you’ll take
the masculine element is considered bigger than the feminine, but the sun is masculine, the
moon is feminine. There is so many ways you can take it what’s the thing. But at the same
time you can say, that works that way, the sun is bigger. But then the moon is bigger,
because it’s the moon that says what happens.
The husband is bigger than the wife, but the wife tells what goes on. So each one, there
is not a problem in it. That’s the problem if we, it has to be one way or the other way. It’s
like either I am in charge, I say what’s happening, or if I don’t my wife says then I am
emasculated, and one becomes effeminate and controlled by. No, but the two can exist
simultaneously.
Devotee (1): The nature of the tatastha-jiva is such that it always will be leaning towards.
For instance in this analysis…consciousness, but also the scientific world is deluded, but
some group are assessing that the sun is the center of the universe and the other is the earth,
which both are right.
Maharaja: Yes, both are right. The thing is that the universe only happens because the sun is
there. Life is there because the sun is there. At the same time, the whole universe is
populated only because the people on the earth what they do. And what they do is
influenced by the planets, but the planets are only giving someone the result of what they
have done. So the two exist simultaneously. We don’t want to get off into that. The point
was sastra is it’s seeming contradictory, but it’s not.
Devotee (7): They also say another argument from Bhagavad-gita. When one comes back to
the spiritual world, he doesn’t return to this material world.
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Maharaja: Yes, right, so what’s the problem with that?
Devotee (7): They use this argument that we couldn’t be in the spiritual world.
Maharaja: But the point is, as I said now, ok. Right now we are in the spiritual world. But
what’s the difference between us sitting here and Lord Caitanya with His eternal associates
going by and doing harinama, what’s the difference?
Devotee (7): We are in a material body.
Maharaja: The six Goswamis they are sitting here, Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja is
sitting here chanting his japa in his material body and seeing all this, Bhaktivinoda Thakura
is sitting in his house and seeing all this going on, the temple and hundreds of devotees and
all these thousands of devotees, Lord Brahma is doing kirtana. What’s the difference? It’s
actually the point of the class today that prema is the all in all.
So the difference is once one has come to the platform of prema one will never come
back. But until you get to prema you can come back. Did Jada Bharata fall down? Ok. What
platform of the adhikariness was Jada Bharata?
Devotee (7): On bhava.
Maharaja: Yes, he is on bhava, he is on the platform of he is uttama-adhikari, that means he
himself is in the spiritual world performing service in his spiritual body, but he can fall.
Why? Because he hasn’t attained prema, because he is still in the tatastha position. So Krsna
is talking about once you obtain the tripada-bhuti you will never come back here. But until
you obtain that you can come back here.
So it’s still the same point, they don’t recognize that the dhama is the spiritual world. It’s
the same point, one is spiritual world means Goloka, and the other one is saying the same
thing but it’s Gokula is not the spiritual world. It’s just two sides of the same coin.
Devotee (7): This I understand, but actually we didn’t have a relationship in prema.
Maharaja: We didn’t have a relationship in prema, but what does tatastha mean? Does
tatastha mean prema? This is the problem. You have to be in a relationship with prema. Did
Prabhupada ever say we were on the platform of prema? Does anyone ever say we were on
the platform of prema? Where does it say that? It doesn’t. Nowhere it says we were in
Goloka, nowhere it says we were on the platform of prema. But it does say we are in the
spiritual world and we have a natural relationship with Krsna. But if we can’t tell the
difference between these two statements that means our head is too fat to discuss the topic.
Devotee (1): Maharaja, the tatastha-jiva when enacts its activity, the tatastha-jiva is a
spiritual spark from the glowing effulgence of the Lord, when the jiva is manifested in his
spiritual body is constitutionally inclined within the identity of the spiritual spark.
Maharaja: Yes, but it hasn’t been obtained. Just like the son is born to the father, but does
the son think I am my father’s son and I am going to do right by my father? It takes a while
before he thinks like that. And why does he begin to think like that? Because of association
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of his father and his associates. That’s the point. So if before one gets to that age when he is
fifteen he packs up and runs off, he is not going to get to that platform. So that’s the point.
That’s why the example is given of the, Christians use it, the prodigal child, the prodigal
son, and we’ll mention the same kind of element. Because without coming to that platform,
not even really making an effort to come to that platform we get distracted here. Because if
you are making an effort, you generally won’t become distracted, because you already have a
direction. But the tatastha position there means one doesn’t have a direction. And why
wouldn’t one have a direction? The soul is sac-cid-ananda, ananda means happiness, so on
the tatastha position you are liberated, so you are happy. The brahmananda is the inherent
ananda of the soul. That’s why Rupa Goswami again and again mentions about that the
happiness of prema is like an unlimited ocean compared to a fraction of a portion of a drop
what is brahmananda. Why does he mention that? Generally we think he mentions that
because, oh, that’s for the Mayavadis, no, that’s for us. Because that’s how we got here.
Because we were so absorbed in brahmananda, so nice being in the spiritual world, that we
don’t think that making that endeavor to develop our relationship with Krsna is important.
The kid is out in the backyard playing with this and that and rocks and leaves, and
couldn’t care less about the family and the duties and all that. So the arrangement that the
father has made is very nice and the kid is enjoying that.
Devotee (1): It’s not that the position of santa-rasa of the jiva?
Maharaja: No, santa means you are already appreciating. So there’ll be some element of that.
You can say that. But santa is not enough. Santa is not enough. So therefore if it’s there, if
it’s dynamic, then that will continue. But the point is it’s not, and one is distracted by the
material aspect of it. So that seeing across the Viraja doesn’t specifically necessarily have to
mean in location, but in principle if you are in the spiritual world and you are seeing the
energy of the Lord without seeing Krsna that’s the mundane mentality, that means you are
seeing across the Viraja, because the Viraja separates between mundane mentality and
spiritual mentality.
Devotee (1): That spiritual world that you mentioned cannot be Goloka.
Maharaja: It won’t be Goloka. The real problem is getting everyone to understand it’s
Gokula. That both sides will have a problem with. But it’s Gokula. And so therefore that’s
why it says the conditioned soul is coming from Mahavisnu, expanding from Mahavisnu,
this is also a big problem, no, no, but I want to be expanded from Radharani. No, no, but I
want to be expanded from. No, no, but, like this. The point is because Mahavisnu, He is on
the other side of the Viraja, and the mundane is on this side of the Viraja. So technically
you are situated with Him and therefore you can look across into the material. But it doesn’t
mean in location. Because the point is the whole material phenomena is Mahavisnu. He
expands as Garbhodakasayi and Ksirodakasayi, so one can be in the spiritual realm, Gokula,
but at the same time, in mentality you are connected with Mahavisnu. So once you become
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attracted to Krsna and take up that association of the nitya-siddhas, then you develop their
mentality, then you are empowered with that aspect.
Devotee (1): That’s why it’s recommended the perspective still a Vaisnava to really embrace
or deep self-realize at least in Brahman or Paramatma.
Maharaja: Yes, and then taking that understanding that still ultimately trying to get to
Bhagavan, because if you drop out of seeing Krsna as a person everywhere you drop back to
at least as Paramatma or as Brahman, but because Krsna is non-dual it’s still Him. But if you
drop out of from Bhagavan to mundane that’s a bit rough. That’s why it’s recommended you
situate yourself in goodness, because goodness pure goodness, goodness pure goodness. Not
pure goodness ignorance, pure goodness ignorance, that’s a little rough.
Devotee (1): That’s rasabhasa.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s rough. So that’s why the situation in goodness is recommended, not
because goodness is good. It’s because it’s a better situation to interface with pure goodness
and to practice from to get to pure goodness. Because then you are in goodness, now you are
trying to remove karma and jnana. While passion and ignorance that’s all it’s about. (end of
lecture) (end)
February 25, 2010

Maharaja:
Chapter Five
Vaidhi-bhakti — the Eternal Religion. It is Not Temporary.
Vaidhi-bhakti-nitya-dharma, naimittik naya
Lahiri Mahasaya had a large family in his home in Santipura. His two sons were famous
scholars. One was named Candranatha, who was 35 years old. He was a landowner
(zamindar) and he looked after all the household affairs. He was learned in the medical
texts. He did trouble himself much with religion. Still, he was honored in brahmana society.
He took care of the servants, maids, doorkeepers, and others, and he looked after the
household affairs. The second son was named Devidasa. From childhood he eagerly studied
the Nyaya-sastra and Smrti-sastra. He had his own school with ten or fifteen students. He
bore the title Vidyaratna (the jewel of knowledge).
So these are the different occupations that one could have, means Candranatha is the
elder, he would take care of the estate, and then the younger brother would be taking care of
there also, because it’s their father’s home. But seeing that the father was retired, then that
means that the eldest son would take care of the estate, but it will still be functioning as if it
the father was there. Now zamindar means landowner, so then they had big tracks of land
and so they are generally farming or they are renting things, or in some way or another they
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are taking care, or they are taking tax if it’s really big, they have villages under him, it
doesn’t say exactly what it is, but in any case they would be living by a combination of either
the ksatriya vaisya kind of position.
And then the younger brother he was scholarly and ran a school, that would be more
standard for a brahmana. For a brahmana the highest occupation he can perform is studying
and teaching. So the younger was doing that and the elder then would be dealing in other
aspects that are lower, but at the same time, he is taking responsibility for the whole family.
Now it mentions here, he didn’t trouble himself much with religion. So this is also a very
interesting thing to note that those who are pious like he is here, very pious, but they are
not actually that religious, so they don’t practice these higher principles for so much for
elevation, it is just for piety. Then in Eleventh Canto it mentions that such persons have a
tendency, they will maintain the human form of life, but since they are not actually
dynamically progressive they take birth in the West in the next life. So if you always
wondered how is it that the Westerners be so interested in sastra or religion because in the
West being interesting in religion means being interested in like first grade philosophy or
studies, not much there. You have a God that’s all-pervading, all-knowing, all in control of
everything, but actually He is not actually running everything, He is not necessarily doing a
great job, or if He is doing a great job He is not actually running this place, and He has no
form. End class. That’s all you ever learn, that’s all you ever know. Now they just argue
about is His divinity a little this way or little that way, or His son is he divine or not divine
or how divine is he, was he there before he appeared here, or this is his manifestation here.
So in other words, it’s based on not having any knowledge, but there is an interest in it,
so you can understand if someone like this coming then they would seem appear very
religious in the Western environment where there is basically no religion. Somewhat
intellectual, he was into Nyaya, so that could put him into law and stuff like this, he’d be
good. The brother was good in the medical texts, here he is very pious, he has big lands, he
could end up as a doctor. And a lot of times you see in religious families that’s the thing, you
either become a doctor or a lawyer. I mean that’s what you are supposed to do.
So in other words, you have to understand it’s how everyone is situated in the universe
is because of their involvement or non-involvement in the Vedic culture. We have to
remember this idea, oh, it’s Kali-yuga all these things don’t apply. One has to remember,
who created Kali-yuga? It’s one of the Amendments in the American Constitution? Or
maybe it’s the body of the EU they made it up? Maybe we go back it’s a little older, ok,
maybe the Chinese made it up? Or maybe Lucy made it up in Africa and brought it with her
when she came to Central Asia?
So this concept that things aren’t Vedic even though people don’t follow it that’s a
totally bogus conception, totally bogus. In other words, all that’s going on the universe is
Vedic. It’s just a matter of some people don’t recognize that and they are in illusion. And we
have to remember that the small amount of people here is just a small amount of people. It’s
natural whatever community you come from then that’s the all in all. If you are American
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that’s all there is in the world, right? If you are European everybody else is out of it. If you
are Asian, then that’s. So the difficulty comes, we think that whatever is going on here
that’s the real thing. But it’s not. It’s just whatever is popular in the circle you move in. You
have to be able to get beyond this. Then we can see how the culture is there everywhere all
times all places. Just some people recognize it, some don’t.
Just like devotees, all living entities in the universe are devotees of the Lord, just the
problem is…so everybody is a devotee, but some recognize it, some don’t. So all that is going
on in the creation, the only thing that actually makes things work is the Vedic culture, just
some recognize it or not. Krsna says there is only one path, His path. There is not many
paths.
This modern thing is you are trying to make God and His creation separate. God is in
control of everything, but actually the Kali-yuga works differently, so it’s not under God’s
control. Who talks like that? Do Vaisnavas talk like that? Does anyone who actually
understands the Vedic culture talk like that? No. So only ignorant fellows talk like this. So
always remember that.
So that’s the problem here that these people they have forgotten, means they are
following the culture, but they have forgotten the philosophy. And so therefore they’ll end
up in a situation where they can’t connect them. In India you can connect the philosophy
and the culture, in the West you can’t. You either have philosophy, which generally
intellectuals will sit around in little tea stalls some place and discuss philosophy, or they are
religious and don’t know philosophy. They don’t match. But in the Vedic culture they
match. So if you don’t match them up, your philosopher and not interested in the culture, or
the opposite way, in any way you don’t connect it to God, then you end up in a situation
where no one knows how to connect it.
So this is the danger these persons are in. And we have to remember this book was
written 150, 160 years ago. So at this time modern was going on. So this idea that now only is
modern. We have to remember that the term modern in the modern culture, one it has its
generic meaning means what’s going on now or contemporary, but the other modern means
the modern age started back in the 20s and 30s of last century, so basically 90 years ago. So
the man today does not have the franchise on modern. And in fact, Lord Brahma is talking
about modern millions of years ago to the sages. So modern has always been there, it’s always
been there. Modern simply means people who don’t recognize the Vedic culture. That’s all,
that makes you modern.
One day in Santipura there was a rumor that Kalidasa Lahiri had become a Vaisnava
ascetic. The rumor was everywhere: at the bathing ghatas, in the marketplace, and on the
streets. Some said that he was now a senile old man. Indeed, on that day the general opinion
was that he had become senile. Some said, “Perhaps he was struck with some disease. He is a
brahmana by birth. His sons and wife and family obey him. What suffering led him to
renounce the world?”
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So I guess Lahiri Mahasaya is Kalidasa. So this is the problem, this is then that people
are complaining if you become a devotee that there is something wrong with you. So is there
any different today? So what is going on now that’s so different? You wear a chain on your
pants and so therefore then it’s so weird to become a devotee? Maybe it’s because you wear
suspenders, but don’t keep them over your shoulders, you just hang them down. Maybe it’s
because you wear your undergarments outside your outergarments. What’s the reason that
being a Vaisnava is so strange? In other words, I am pointing out the point of this chewing
the chewed. We think that we are so up to date now, the same stuff was going on 150 years
ago.
Some said, “Such is the sad end of they who run here and there advertising their love for
religion.” Some educated persons said, “Kalidasa Lahiri is a very pious man. Although
everything this world has to offer is in his possession, in his old age he has become attracted
to the holy names of Lord Hari.”
Notice here it said some educated, before that it just said some said.
In these ways they talked. Hearing all these rumors, someone repeated them to Devidasa
Vidyaratna Mahasaya.
Rapt in thought, Vidyaratna approached his elder brother and said, “Brother, I think
our father is in great trouble.
I guess the difference is in those days the sons tried to, what do they call it when you try
to make him not a devotee, what’s that called? Deprogramming. So here the sons are trying
to deprogram the father. Nowadays the parents try to deprogram the children.
His body is in good health. He is staying at Godruma in Nadiya. But he has fallen into
bad association. We cannot be blind to the rumors in the village.”
Candranatha replied, “O brother, I have also heard some of these rumors. The fame of
our house is very great. Still, when I hear these rumors about father, I can no longer hold my
head high.
He has become a devotee, oh no.
We have always held the family of Advaita Prabhu in low esteem.
Mahavisnu’s family is in low esteem.
But what has no happened in our own house? Let us go home, consult with our saintly
mother, and do what we can.”
Devidasa and Candranatha sat on the veranda of their home. A brahmana widow served
them their meal. Their mother sat with them, arranging for the meal. Candranatha said,
“Mother, have you heard any news about father?”
So here you see also they are not devotees but still the culture is there, the mother it says
here is overseeing, arranging the prasada. She is not serving, they have some other
brahmana lady serving, but she is overseeing it, so this would be how the control would be
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there, this would be how the relationship would be there, this would be how the standard of
quality of life would be there. The problem is it’s so many nice zeros, but there is no one in
front of it. That’s the weakness. So we see like Lahiri Mahasaya, so many qualifications but
unfortunately no Krsna. Then when he came in contact with the devotees and he actually
understood, we see how quickly he was advancing, how nice, because he had so many
qualifications.
So that’s the advantage of the Vedic culture that if it’s engaged in the Lord’s service the
qualification is very great. If it’s not engaged in the Lord’s service it can produce some nice
mundane facility, but eventually it’s lost because everything on the material platform is
temporary.
The saintly mother replied, “Why? Is his health good? He is in Navadvipa now. He is
mad after the holy names of Lord Hari. Why don’t you bring him back here?”
Devidasa said, “Mother, his health is good. But I have heard that other things are not
good. If we bring him home our reputation will be ruined.”
Then the saintly mother asked, “How can it be? The other day at the Ganga’s shore I
talked about many things with the daughter-in-law of one of the big Goswami’s. She said to
me, ‘Your husband is very fortunate. The Vaisnavas honor him’.”
Devidasa said, “He is not honored in our social circles. Now that he is old in years will
he stay at home and allow us to serve him? No. He eats the remnants left by men who wear
loincloths. He has defiled our exalted family. O wicked age of Kali! Our father has seen and
heard so much! What has happened to his intelligence now?”
So now they are also saying it’s Kali-yuga what can we do, he has become a devotee. It’s a
common excuse. So you can understand, they are saktas, and so then the saktas then they’ll
be very disturbed if someone becomes a devotee.
The saintly mother said, “Bring him here and keep him hidden until you can bring him
to his senses.”
Candranatha said, “What else can we do? Accompanied by two or three men, Devi
should go to Godruma and secretly bring father back.”
Devi said, “You know very well that father, thinking me an atheist, does not have a very
good opinion of me. If I cannot even talk with him there should be something else I can do.”
Devidasa’s maternal cousin Sambhunatha is liked by their father. Indeed, Sambhunatha
stayed with him and served him for many days. So it was settled that the two of them,
Devidasa and Sambhunatha were to go to Godruma. A servant was sent in advance to
arrange their stay in some brahmana’s house.
The next day Sambhunatha and Devidasa finished their meal and set out for Godruma.
Arriving, they descended from their palanquins and gave the bearers permission to depart.
At their new place they would have one brahmana cook and two servants.
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At sunset Devidasa and Sambhunatha peacefully walked about Pradyumna-kunja. They
saw Lahiri Mahasaya sitting on a leaf-seat in Sri Surabhi’s courtyard. His eyes closed, he was
chanting the holy names of Lord Hari on his beads. His limbs were glorious with the twelve
tilaka marks. Quietly entering the courtyard, Sambhunatha and Devidasa offered dandavat
obeisances to the feet of Lahiri Mahasaya. Startled, Lahiri Mahasaya opened his eyes and
said, “Sambhu, why have you come? What is in your mind, that you have come here? Devi, is
all well with you?’
The two of them humbly said, “Because you have blessed us, all is well.”
Lahiri Mahasaya asked, “Will you take your meal here?” The two answered, “We are
already guests at someone’s house. You need not worry for us.”
Because they are probably worried they are going to end up with some remnants of the
Vaisnavas.
At that moment the sound of Lord Hari’s holy names came from Sri Prema dasa’s
cottage of madhavi and malati vines. Then Sri Vaisnava dasa came from his cottage and
asked Lahiri Mahasaya, “Why does the sound of Lord Hari’s holy names come from the
paramahamsa babaji’s cottage?” Lahiri Mahasaya and Vaisnava dasa went there. There they
saw many Vaisnavas chanting the holy names of Lord Hari and circumambulating the
saintly babaji. The two of them joined in these activities. Then everyone offered dandavat
obeisances to the saintly paramahamsa babaji. Then everyone sat down. Devidasa and
Sambhunatha also sat down to one side. They were like two ducks surrounded by a flock of
swans.
One of the Vaisnavas said, “We come from the town of Kattwa. Our primary reason to
come here is to see Sri Navadvipa and Sri Mayapura and to attain the dust of the
paramahamsa babaji’s feet.
One thing that always must be remembered is what is the quality that we see in the
gopis that makes their love special? It’s despite whatever is going on they have no problem
showing their affection for Krsna. That’s something unique to the Vrajavasis. They don’t
care for social position or stigmas or anything, they show their love for Krsna. That’s what
makes them special. That’s one of the elements, one is willing. Like when Krsna blew the
flute the gopis had to leave and go to where Krsna was. They weren’t worried about what
was going on socially.
So that same mentality, that same principle can be here. One is not embarrassed about
being a devotee. One is not worried that no one else is interested in this. One is able to
move with this. That was one of the last instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,
he said don’t worry that on one else is a devotee, that doesn’t matter. We have our orders,
we have guru, we have Krsna, we have the holy name. So why can’t we go on doing what we
are supposed to do? Don’t worry if everybody else leaves.
So this principle is very important in Vraja-bhakti. It’s important in any Vaisnava
school, but especially you see it within Vraja. So to be always in anxiety about how we are
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perceived by people by the externals isn’t very important actually. Because even if you make
the externals nice it won’t be right, they won’t like it. You take a bunch of karmis, a room
full of karmis. Do they actually appreciate each other? You take successful karmis, big
businessmen, intellectuals, celebrities, put them together at one party, do they actually
appreciate each other? Do they actually think what the other person is wearing is actually
good? Even they are all wearing brand names, someone is going to think they don’t know
how to match it.
So there is no place in this world where everyone thinks you are doing fine. One has to
get over this. In other words, you know what you are supposed to do you do do that, and
don’t worry about anybody else. Because if you do you will be worrying about them eternally,
because Vaisnavas don’t worry about it. So if you want to worry about these things, there is
no space in the spiritual world for you, because you won’t find a nice place there, because no
one else is worried about. You’ll stand out, you’ll feel weird, left out. That feeling I need to
be accepted by everything, it won’t happen, because they are different.
One of the Vaisnavas said, “We come from the town of Kattwa. Our primary reason to
come here is to see Sri Navadvipa and Sri Mayapura and to attain the dust of the
paramahamsa babaji’s feet.
Embarrassed, the paramahamsa babaji said, “I am a fallen sinner. You have come here to
purify me.” After a short time it became obvious that these Vaisnavas were very expert in
singing the glories of Lord Hari. In a moment mrdanga and karatalas were brought. Reading
from a paper, an elderly Vaisnava sang these words:
“O Sri Krsna Caitanyacandra! O Prabhu Nityananda! O Gadadhara! O Advaitacandra!
O devotees of Lord Gaura!
“O Vaisnava Thakura, O shoreless ocean of mercy, please be merciful to me, a fallen
sinner.
“Master, please be merciful and deliver me, a person mad with pride in my birth,
learning, and wealth.
“Please purify me of the desire for gold, women, and fame. That is my prayer.
“O servant of Lord Krsna, please be merciful and give me attraction for the holy name,
mercy to the living entities and happy association with the Vaisnavas.
“The shade of your feet is my only hope. Whether I live or die, you are my only shelter.”
When these verses came to an end, Lahiri Mahasaya sang a prayer he had himself
composed:
“I was in the grip of illusion. I had fallen into the ocean of birth and death. You were
merciful to me. You gave me the shade of your lotus feet. You rescued me.
“Please hear me! O saintly Vaisnava, please hear me! Now I surrender to your feet.
Please throw my sufferings far away.
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“Pride of caste is hell. Material learning is ignorance. Please purify me and place me
before Lord Nityananda’s lotus feet. Please extinguish the fire that burns within me.
“Please be merciful and place on my tongue the holy names of the Divine Couple.
Kalidasa prays: Please place Sri Sri Radha-Syama in my heart.
Hearing this song, everyone became wild with happiness. Together they stood up. Again
and again they sang. Again and again singing the words “Please place Sri Sri Radha-Syama
in my heart”, they danced wildly. Again and again dancing, some Vaisnava become
overwhelmed with spiritual love and fell unconscious. Something unprecedented then
happened, something that when he saw it made Devidasa think, “Father is now plunged in
meditation on the Absolute. It will be difficult to take him home again.” The meeting broke
up in the middle of the night. After saying their farewells, everyone returned to their own
places. After bidding farewell to Lahiri Mahasaya, Devidasa and Sambhunatha returned to
their host’s home.
The next day, after they had finished their meal, Devi and Sambhu entered Lahiri
Mahasaya’s cottage. After offering dandavat obeisances, Devidasa Vidyaratna placed the
following request before Lahiri Mahasaya: “This is my request: Please reside in Santipura. In
this place there are many troubles and inconveniences. All of us will happily serve you at
home. If you order, we will arrange a solitary room for you to stay there.”
Does this sound common? Why do you have to live in the temple, you can stay at home.
You can have a temple in your room. Whatever you do at the temple, you can do that at
home. Heard this one?
Lahiri Mahasaya replied, “It is not a bad idea. Still, in Santipura I will not be able to
associate with devotees as I do here. Devi, you know that the people of Santipura are
atheists and delight in criticizing others. It is not a happy place for anyone to live. True,
there are many brahmanas there, but their intelligence is warped by association with
weavers. The three characteristics of Santipura’s people are fine garments, pompous words,
and blasphemy of Vaisnavas. That is why the descendants of Advaita Prabhu suffer there.
By bad association even many of them have also turned against Lord Mahaprabhu.
Therefore please arrange that I may stay here in Godruma. That is my desire.”
So he says that they are famous for these things. Fine garments, your best cotton saris
and dhotis and all that they come from Santipura. And pompous words, they like to talk big
in nice language, means up to more contemporary time then the best quality of Bengali was
Santipuri Bengali, so they liked to use very big words, very nice, very eloquent. And then of
course, Vaisnava aparadha, they just have to, there is no way that they can avoid it.
Advaitacarya’s house where it is, at the back of where its place is it drops right down
because the Ganga used to flow there right there. But it’s now moved about a kilometer
away. And so it’s explained that because the people there are so sinful, Ganga moved away
that only the more sincere ones would actually walk that kilometer to get to the Ganga to
take a bath and all the other ones wouldn’t. So even she moved because they are so sinful.
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Devidasa said, “Father, what you say is true. Still, why need you have any contact with
Santipura’s people? In your own private room you can chant Gayatri and perform your other
religious duties. In this way you may pass your days. A brahmana has eternal duties and
eternal religions rituals. Great souls like yourself should always be absorbed in these duties.”
Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Son, those days are no more. Now that I have stayed for some
months with the devotees and have heard the teachings of my spiritual master, my view of
life is completely changed. What you call eternal duties I call temporary duties. Devotional
service to Lord Hari is the soul’s only eternal duty. Chanting Gayatri and other like duties
are all temporary.”
Devidasa replied, “Father, I do not see that duty in any scripture. Is chanting Gayatri
not the worship of Lord Hari? If chanting Gayatri is the worship of Lord Hari, then it is an
eternal religious duty. How is chanting Gayatri different from hearing and chanting about
Lord Hari and the other activities of vaidhi-bhakti?”
Now we are getting down to fine points. Here we are having an argument or discussion
between those who all accept the Vedic culture, but now within it some are thinking simply
that form and ritual of the Vedic culture that’s complete, while the other party knows it’s
actually that is only for the purpose of expressing one’s affection for the Lord, that the
whole culture itself is simply a vehicle to express devotional service. But one sees it it’s the
vehicle is complete in itself. It will be like somebody has a car, both parties accept cars are
important and everybody has got to have one, but one party thinks that simply having the
car that’s enough, while the other one knows that the car is there to drive around and get
things done.
So the actual purpose of the Vedic culture is devotional service. So it being applied not
in connection with devotional service means it will be temporary. Pious, best quality, but
temporary. But if it is connected to the Lord, then it takes up the quality of devotional
service, then it becomes vaidhi-bhakti.
Lahiri Mahasaya said, “Child, chanting Gayatri and other karma-kanda activities are
very different from vaidhi-bhakti. Chanting Gayatri and other karma-kanda activities are
performed with a desire to attain impersonal liberation. However hearing and chanting
about Lord Hari and the other activities of vaidhi-bhakti are not performed with any
material motive. When in the scriptures such results are seen to come from the devotional
activities that begin with hearing and chanting the glories of Lord Hari, that is so only for
the purpose of attracting the materialists. Devotional service to Lord Hari brings only one
result: devotional service to Lord Hari. It brings no other result. The primary result attained
by vaidhi-bhakti is that one becomes attracted to serve Lord Hari.”
Devidasa said, “Father, then it is true that some secondary results also come from
devotional service to Lord Hari.”
So he is establishing that the brahmanas are chanting Gayatri, because that’s what you
do in the Vedic culture and one obtains all kinds of piety from that. It’s mentioned in Manu
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that if the brahmana does nothing else than chanting Gayatri then he is considered to be
the most learned. But in here he is pointing out that that chanting of Gayatri that’s not
actually connected to the Lord, that’s either going to be coming from karma or jnana. The
karmi is chanting it because that’s the correct ritual that a brahmana performs, and so from
that piety then he will get all kinds of good material results. The jnani is chanting the
Gayatri with the idea of coming to the platform of Brahman, because this is one of the
specific aspects that this mantra does, it brings one to the Brahman platform.
So now he is saying that when devotional service it’s mentioned that you get all kinds of
these benefits along with the devotional aspect, it’s mentioning that’s only to attract the
materialists. Because devotional service only gives one result, that’s further devotional
service. Devotional service gives devotional service. So these other things are simply there
because someone will be trying to get material results separate from Krsna. But the process
of getting a material result is given by Krsna and that process is supposed to be used in His
service. So the secondary result comes anyway, because that’s just the way the cosmic
creation works. But the devotees aren’t worried about the secondary result, while the
materialists are. But better the materialists are engaged in devotional service though mixed
than not at all.
So we can understand that’s here that’s the proper thing then he is engaged in
devotionals service. So then what use to the devotee is a process that’s not part of
devotional service and is only geared to give you a material benefit? What’s the use?
Devotional service will give you that material benefit and give you devotional service. So
what would be the use of material activities that aren’t giving devotional service and only
supposedly give the material benefit? So that’s why everything is looked for within the
context of the Vedic culture, not outside, that’s not seen as an option for those who
understand the Vedic literature.
So now Devidasa, because he is trying to, he is a karma-kandi, so he is trying to point out
the secondary results are there.
Devidasa said, “Father, then it is true that some secondary results also come from
devotional service to Lord Hari.”
Lahiri Mahasaya: For different kinds of neophyte devotees there are secondary results.
Still a true Vaisnava engages in sadhana-bhakti so that he may some day attain the
perfection of devotional service. They who are not true devotees perform sadhana-bhakti to
attain two goals: 1. material sense gratification, and 2. impersonal liberation. Externally one
cannot see a difference in the activities of true Vaisnavas and pretenders, but internally, at
the root, there is a difference of faith. The worship of Lord Hari performed by a person who
thinks that worship is a material fruitive activity may bring purity of mind, impersonal
liberation, cure of diseases, or other material results. Still, the worship of Lord Hari
performed by a person who thinks that worship is spiritual devotional service brings
attraction to Lord Krsna’s holy names as its only result. For the materialists, observance of
the ekadasi vow destroys sins. For the devotees, observance of the ekadasi vow increases
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devotion to Lord Hari. You can see the difference here. The subtle difference of sadhana-
bhakti performed by they who think it is a material activity and they who think it is
spiritual devotional service can be understood only by the mercy of the Supreme Personality
of Godhead. The materialists are caught up in the secondary results. The devotees attain the
primary result. All secondary results may be grouped into two categories: 1. material sense
gratification, and 2. impersonal liberation.
So we see that the materialist, here it’s mentioning it’s even alluding to here that a
materialist who is following the devotional activities simply for material benefit they’ll get
everything, but they won’t get devotional service, but they’ll get all the material benefit. So
why would a devotee go outside devotional service using the phrases I am just being
practical, or we have to be realistic. Because it’s God’s creation, it’s only God’s rules, He is
the one that is making things happen. So we only get results because of His approval. So
they only come by following His process.
So here it’s mentioning that, now he is taking here just a materialistic person and then
the devotee, but at the same time, then one has to be able to identify mixes what may be
mixed. So in other words, are you going around tulasi because it gets rid of sin or because it
increases devotion? Of course, ok, if we are less sinful we can be devotees, so then it’s
connected. But the point is increasing your devotion to Krsna there is less attraction to the
material energy. So it’s automatically taken care of. Just because you become freed from sin
doesn’t mean you become a devotee. So the devotee is careful on where they emphasize.
In other words, it’s not that these other aspects aren’t there, but the emphasis is on
Krsna, it’s always connected to Krsna. Otherwise if it overemphasized on the other side,
then what happens? One actually starts to follow a culture that is not actually useful for
devotees. Trying to fit in, why are you trying to fit in? Because it’s devotionally
advantageous for you? It’s devotionally advantageous for other people? It’s the best way of
spreading the holy name, bringing people in contact with devotional service? Or it’s simply
because you feel socially uncomfortable and therefore just want to be another face in the
crowd? So it’s not devotional.
So the point is if you are really determined, Krsna can create an environment like that
for you to be in. and there is an anxiety that I am a devotee, but I am kind of on the edge,
but I shouldn’t be, but then I have to be practical. So what’s the real anxiety for the devotee
here? What’s the real anxiety? The real anxiety is the knowledge that there is something
actually higher to be performed and that I don’t want to perform it or can’t perform it, but I
am not satisfied with the lower one because I know about the higher one. So how do you
solve this problem if your emphasis is on the lower one? Removing the higher one. So then
what does that mean? It means taking birth in a situation where one doesn’t know about
these things.
Religious family, Devidasa and his brother are a religious family. They are talking about
coming home and performing your brahminical duties. This is a religious family, aristocratic
family, there is all these wealthy people all around the world. These are the families to take
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birth in if this is your determination. Devotee families are for those who are situated in
devotional service and that’s your duty. But for those who aren’t so situated in devotional
service, then these other families are where one takes birth. In fact, know it that anybody in
a religious family or aristocratic or noble family they have all done devotional service, that’s
why they are in there. That’s mentioned in Sixth Canto.
So if devotees are going, well, there is all these people out there they are successful in
the world without devotional service, that’s actually not true. They are only in those
positions because they have done devotionals service. That’s the only reason they are there.
But they weren’t very serious. It’s in the Sixth Canto.
So we have to be very, very careful. That’s why here he is going through chapther by
chapter just taking one topic and then making sure it is very, very clear, and like this he
goes through. Prabhupada said everything Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote, whatever is in all of
his books is in this one book. Everything is in here. So he is making sure every point is being
made. And he is doing it through purana, through story, because then it’s very easy. If it’s
just straight philosophy then nobody is interested. Like how many devotees have heard of
Jaiva-dharma? So many. How many have heard of the Amnaya-sutras or Tattva-sutras?
Basically nobody. Why? Because those are straight just philosophical. Amnaya-sutras, it’s 50
sutras that is the essence of all our philosophy in sutra form, sutra form in Upanisadic
language, straight just hardcore philosophy. No one has heard of it. This is a story,
everybody has heard of it. How many have read Vedanta-sutra? No. How many have read
Bhagavatam? Ok, so that’s the point. So if it’s in story form everybody likes to read it. That’s
why in Kali-yuga the purana is considered the superior form of literature. In previous ages
the Upanisads were considered the superior literature. But in Kali-yuga then the purana is.
Because the purana is the easiest and most natural way for a living entity to absorb the
philosophy. Because the living entity is someone who is personal and likes to interact with
other people. So if you see philosophy being interactive between people that’s the easiest
and most direct way. While the Upanisad means you have to go through jnana to get to it.
But the jnana only it covers all the aspects but in theory. But the puranas cover the
philosophy and show you practically how people used it in their life, that’s practical, that is
being practical prabhu. So that’s why Vyasadeva and the acaryas then they choose purana.
Sanatana Goswami then Brhad-Bhagavatamrta, we have heard of it, we have read it. Who
has ever even touched Hari-bhakti-vilasa, let alone open the book, let alone read it? So
purana always is the preferred. And it’s considered Jiva Goswami establishes in the Tattva-
sandarbha that it’s the superior of all forms of Vedic literature anyway, it’s the best. It’s only
revealed in Kali-yuga that it’s the best, and only by the devotees.
Devidasa: Why then do the scriptures praise these secondary results?
Lahiri Mahasaya: Two kinds of human beings inhabit the material world: 1. the
intelligent and 2. the unintelligent. The unintelligent will not perform any spiritual activity
unless they see an immediate material benefit comes from it. For such persons the scriptures
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praise the secondary results of devotional service. However, it is not the purpose of the
scriptures that such persons shall remain always content with these secondary results.
That’s always the point. That’s why then that is being mentioned. The Mahabharata, it’s
100000 verses, 25000 are about Pandavas. So those 25000 are directly about Pandavas, it’s
only about Pandavas and Krsna. So it’s actually talking about devotional service.
Mahabharata makes it very clear, Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you see the
devotion of the Pandavas. But 75000 verses which is three quarters of it that’s talking about
all the secondary results what is there in the Vedic culture is secondary results. That gets
people to follow it with the idea that they’ll come to the platform of following the 25000
verses. There will be attracted by the 75000, but they’ll come to the point of the 25000. But
Narada Muni said because it is so overwhelmed, one verse to four, with the secondary
aspects, people won’t actually take that up, they’ll just stick with the secondary. So then
Vyasadeva understanding this then he wrote Bhagavatam which is then direct. It’s just
dealing with that. Some little bits of secondary are mentioned but they are just in passing.
It’s mentioned what’s there but no one really takes it seriously.
So the idea is it’s not supposed to do, but the problem is people once they get what they
want then they will just stay there, because they think they have worked something out, so
we should always be like that, it’s good enough, especially spiritual. We will go on day by day
trying to improve ourselves materially, but spiritually once we figured something out you
just let it sit, it’s done. It’s a problem.
Just to go back one step. I do hope you all realize that we are speaking on this level so
that we think about these things and contemplate it. Because otherwise we can go on saying
all the encouraging aspects of devotional service. But basically speaking probably every class
you hear somebody give that’s generally what you hear. But here we are trying to work out
one’s own self-analysis, so that one can be contemplative and see the quality of one’s service,
see where one’s strength is, see where the weaknesses are, build on the strength and correct
the weaknesses. And because these things are something we generally never think about
much, a simple point may take a whole class or many classes to discuss. Once one is
comfortable with this, then these kind of conversations will only be a few minutes. Because
all this what we are discussing now, the level that we are discussing at is on the Bhaktisastri
level. The Bhaktivaibhava level we don’t have to go into so much example and everything,
because it’s already understood. That’s the idea.
So just in case that someone is thinking why is it always critical, why it’s this and that,
because we are trying to see in our own life where we are actually the devotion is strong and
where it’s actually weak. Otherwise generally no one talks about it. Why? Because people are
afraid of it. But a devotee is supposed to be fearless. That’s the quality of the madhyama
adhikari, fearless.
The idea is that, after a short time and by the mercy of the Lord’s devotees, such persons
will become attracted to the primary result.
Devidasa: Are Raghunandana and the other authors of smrti-sastras then unintelligent?
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Lahiri Mahasaya: No. They themselves seek the primary result. Still, the code of actions
they prescribe is meant for the unintelligent.
Devidasa: In some scriptures we see only the secondary results are described and there is
no mention of this primary result. What is the reason for that?
Lahiri Mahasaya: The scriptures are of three kinds according to the three classes of
human beings eligible to receive them. For human beings in the mode of goodness there are
scriptures in the mode of goodness. For human beings in the mode of passion there are
scriptures in the mode of passion. For human beings in the mode of ignorance there are
scriptures in the mode of ignorance.
Devidasa: In which of these scriptures should one place his faith? How can a person in
the lower stages become elevated?
So here is being brought out, Bhaktivinoda Thakura is bringing out a very important
point, all these personalities who have written all these different kinds of scriptures that are
accepted as authorized scriptures they themselves know what the actual purpose is, but they
are writing for a particular class of persons so that they are engaged. Because the Vedic
culture can engage everybody no matter what your mentality. But the problem is you can go
on doing that for millions and millions of lifetimes and only progress a little. So the devotee
is not being content with that. Then they come and directly try to crash into your life and
point out of the primary results. While others move with the secondary results and then so
many millions of lives, one becomes more pious and from that moves from karma to jnana,
and from like this he moves up this Vedic ladder, but the problem is very slow. At any time
you can get distracted and not actually get to devotional service. So that’s why then the
Vaisnavas don’t bother with that. They just come and directly describe devotional service,
because that’s the purpose. But people can easily miss the point, easily can miss the point,
get caught up in some other mundane aspect and say no, this is the point, this is what’s
important.
We even see here that Devidasa, even though he is a dyed in the wool atheist, still he is
asking the questions nicely and wants to know. One is out of respect of his father, but even
it’s not, out of respect for the teacher. And so he sees his father is advanced in these aspects.
Because they in their smartas, means because they’ll be smartas, so they know that there is
some element of advanced stages of getting into Uttara-mimamsa instead of Purva-
mimamsa. You get into Vedanta as opposed to just the karma-kanda. But at the same time
it’s not really important to them. Because at some point somebody takes sannyasa and goes
to the forest and so they get into Uttara-mimamsa, what else are they going to do? You can’t
get into karma-kanda if you are a sannyasi in the forest. But a lot of them don’t even get to
that, just end as a vanaprastha and leave in that way. So they never actually get to Vedanta.
So here then he is asking these things to try to understand what’s happening. So then
tomorrow we’ll continue with they’ll go through all these different kinds of sastras and
establish what’s what and their relationship with each other. So this is a nice aspect on how
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to understand the Vedic literatures, what is their position, and how to see them in
connection with Krsna. (end of lecture) (end)
February 26, 2010

Maharaja:
Lahiri Mahasaya: Persons with different kinds of qualifications have different kinds of
faith. They who are in the mode of ignorance have faith in the scriptures of the mode of
ignorance. They who are in the mode of passion have faith in the scriptures of the mode of
passion. They who are in the mode of goodness have faith in the scriptures of the mode of
goodness. Thus a person believes the conclusions of the scripture in which, according to the
modes, he naturally has faith. By faithfully performing the duties for which he is qualified,
and by associating with saintly devotees, one becomes elevated in this birth. Thus elevated,
a person attains faith in the scriptures meant for elevated persons. The authors of the
scriptures are perfectly learned and not at all bewildered. They composed the scriptures in
such a way that by faithfully performing his own duties a person may be gradually elevated.
That is why the different scriptures describe many different kinds of duties. Faith in the
scriptures is the source of all auspiciousness. Bhagavad-gita describes all the different
conclusions of the different scriptures and at the end it clearly describes the final
conclusion of all scriptures.
Devidasa: Since boyhood I have studied many scriptures, but today, by your mercy, I can
understand the wonderful purpose of them all.
Lahiri Mahasaya: In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.8.10) it is written:
“Just as a honeybee takes nectar from all flowers, big and small, an intelligent human
being should take the essence from all religious scriptures.”
Son, I used to call you an atheist. Now I do not speak ill of anyone. Anyone who
faithfully performs the prescribed duties that suit his nature should not be criticized. In fact
everyone acts according to their nature and all will be gradually elevated at the proper time.
You are learned in books of logic and fruitive action. Therefore you are not to blame if your
words follow those ideas.
Devidasa: I know some things, but I am not learned in the Vaisnava religion. I used to
think that the Vaisnavas are fanatics who insisted on interpreting the scriptures in their
own way. But now that I heard your explanation, I know that among the Vaisnavas are
learned persons who know the true meaning of the scriptures. From what great soul have
you learned all this about the scriptures?
Lahiri Mahasaya: Son, recently I have been instructed by a staunch Vaisnava. In the
next cottage my spiritual master worships the Lord. He has taught me the meanings of all
the scriptures. He is the person I have described to you. If you approach his lotus feet you
may ask him about devotional service. Come, you and I will visit him.
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So in the approach to dealing with the scriptures one has to have faith in the scriptures.
That’s the basic principle. That is not something for doubting. Means the Vedic concept
anything can be discussed, you don’t understand it, you don’t understand the depth of it,
that’s fine. Then you discuss how much you want, ask questions, get into details, that’s all.
But to doubt that the scripture is correct that’s not an option, because it’s coming from
Krsna.
So then the idea here is that these great sages are writing the scriptures for different
classes of people. And by writing for these different classes then everybody can be elevated
according to their nature. Whatever their nature is that can be engaged, that can be
connected to the Lord. So by following these different scriptures then someone is according
to his own nature rightly situated. But at the same time as we do know that there is a
hierarchy, like Lahiri Mahasaya is mentioning that the Bhagavad-gita gives the conclusions
to all the different scriptures and then gives the final conclusion.
So an intelligent person then the example is given from the Bhagavatam like a honeybee
takes the nectar or the essence from all the different scriptures whatever they are, whether
they are big, small, anything like that, whatever he reads he finds the essence. Bhaktivinoda
Thakura identifies this as saragrahi, one who takes the essence. So these saragrahi Vaisnava
is able to take that essence and apply it in the life, that’s the important thing. To know
something is nice, but to be able to apply it that’s more important.
So now he is saying anyone who is following properly, is properly situated, they are not
to be criticized. There is no problem there. But if they are not properly situated that’s
another thing. Like we see Arjuna and his brothers were going along the, when they were
after the fire at Varnavata, they were going along the Ganga or approaching the Ganga. So
in the river then was one big chief of the Gandharvas, Citraratha. So he is there with his
wives. So as they approach Arjuna has a torch, as they approach then he comes out of the
water and attacks them. So fight and sues in which then Citraratha is defeated. So Arjuna
after asking why did you attack us, he said because you are not properly situated. You have
graduated from the gurukula, so you are not technically brahmacaris any more, but you are
not married. Then you are ksatriyas but you have no brahmana to lead you. And this last
point he was saying that you are approaching the water at night. So Arjuna on that one said
but Ganga, a well, and the Himalayas can always be approached at night, it doesn’t matter.
Other bodies of water one is careful, but the Ganges, the holy rivers, they are not a problem,
or the well means what you always use for your water.
So the point that the Gandharva was making is because you are not rightly situated then
that was something to be dealt with. Because the Gandharva is in a superior position then a
human, so it’s his business to correct.
So the point is if someone according to his nature is situated according to his nature and
performing his duties there is no fault in that, there is no fault in the proper performance of
one’s own duties. So one should therefore situate oneself. So one is not to criticize his
position.
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Then we see here Devidasa was thinking that the Vaisnavas are just interpreting in
their own way. But now he can understand that, no, they have some depth there. So then
Lahiri Mahasaya said, yes, so there are within the Vaisnavas there are those who understand
these conclusions. Because you might have those who are working on sentiment and other
aspects like this. But then there are those who actually understand the whole process, they
are actually broad-minded. So that’s mahatma, broad-minded.
And now they are going to go see Vaisnava dasa, his spiritual master.
It’s interesting to note that in the scriptures generally speaking or much of the time, you
either have a scripture spoken by someone very elevated, when you are dealing with a
specific point, someone who is very elevated, or someone who before had a problem in that
area and has corrected it, or they are within that category. So here Lahiri Mahasaya coming
from these smarta background and all that, he is talking about the position of the scripture,
because if someone else talks you might belives it, might not. But if someone from that
background then he is speaking about this.
After speaking these words, Lahiri Mahasaya took Devidasa Vidyaratna to the cottage of
Sri Vaisnava dasa. Leaving him there, Lahiri went to his own cottage, sat down and chanted
the holy names.
Sri Vaisnava dasa: Child, have you studied the scriptures?
Devidasa: I studied the nyaya-sastras from Muktipada to Siddhanta-kusumanjali, and I
also studied the smrti-sastras.
Sri Vaisnava dasa: Did you study many scriptures diligently? What was your conclusion
after diligently studying them?
Because these are both questions and instructions. If you are studying, did you study
diligently, did you study very seriously? Or in your study did you find that you just go
through? Prabhupada mentions that when you deal with the scriptures first you read them,
so that means you start from the front and go to the back, then you study them. So if you are
saying study the scripture it means you have already read them, now you are going back and
trying to find detail, find the connections. Because scriptures are generally written in the
form of a conversation, because the presentation is the best and the absorption is the best.
Because a conversation means it’s working according to somebody’s natural understanding.
You have someone who is in the position of the student, someone who is in the position of
the teacher. So the teacher is speaking, the student is listening. So the student listening is
asking questions, so according to his understanding according to his position then he
progresses through the subject matter. Now in the subject matter you have a natural
platform of communality that all the different points relate to each other in their full form.
But before getting to that stage then there may be a hierarchy of understanding the points.
Just like Lord Caitanya gives the dasa-mula, there is a hierarchy you understand then.
Until you understand God you won’t understand the jiva. That’s why it’s said, if you are
cleaning the mirror then if there is light, when the sun comes up you can see yourself. So
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that’s the point, it’s not that you can see yourself when it’s dark. So when you understand
Krsna you can understand who you are, because we are part and parcel of Krsna.
So then in presentation then there is an order, so in doing that you are going to give the
fundamentals of every aspect of this subject matter itself, and then the relationships to each
other, how they relate to each other, everything is going to be presented. In other words,
you are going to get the knowledge or the sambandha aspect of sambandha, abhidheya, and
prayojana. Once that is all clear then you can understand how they relate together and how
to get that result.
So once one has gone through the scripture the presentation is complete. Then by going
back and studying then you see that in different chapters different aspects of one topic have
been presented. So then studying means going back and seeing all those aspects together in
one place. Because one happens is from different perspectives, different angles it’s been
presented. That is called vicara. From different angles of vision you are studying something,
then you get a complete picture. Then your different elements are complete and then you
start to see all those elements together, and then you have your final conclusion.
Gita is giving as example was given here the conclusion of the all the scriptures, what is
Nyaya, what is Sankhya, what is niti, what is dharma, what do they all establish? What’s the
actual conclusion of the karma-sastras, the jnana-sastras, the dhyana-sastras? So all these are
given. And then at the end, so one is supposed to be engaged like here in one’s nature, in
other words, you have your conditioned nature you engage that properly in the Lord’s
service. So that’s what’s given. But then at the end of the Gita then Krsna is saying, all this
approach to religion must be given up, and you must come to the point of just surrendering
to Krsna, because that’s the ultimate position of religion, is the soul and God. But the point
is the soul he is going to relate to God through something. One may say, oh, what’s the need
of all these other things, why do you have to have all these insistence on dealing with the
conditioned nature, the soul is pure, we just go directly to the Lord, why do we bother with
these things? But what’s wrong with that philosophy? It’s direct, it’s practical, it’s pragmatic.
But what’s wrong with it?
Devotee (1): …you can’t be transcendental result.
Maharaja: Ok, that’s one thing, but even if you are transcendental.
Devotee (1): You show the example to others.
Maharaja: Ok, let’s go beyond that, let’s go to the spiritual world. How are you going to
express your affection for Krsna.
Devotee (2): Through activity.
Maharaja: Through activity, and what’s that activity going to be based on?
Devotee (2): Sastra.
Maharaja: Sastra, but then let us be specific for the individual.
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Devotee (3): Your nature.
Maharaja: Your nature. In other words, mother Yasoda is going to serve Krsna in her nature
of love as a parent. So the principle of acting according to your nature that is eternal. That’s
why varnasrama can be called sanatana-dharma. This is the confusing point. Why is it
confusing? That’s very straight-forward. But what’s confusing? Because we say in the
element of sarva-dharman-parityajya then we are thinking giving up religion means giving
up the form. So actually that means it is but it is replacing material form with spiritual form.
It’s not getting rid of form. Getting rid of form is impersonalism. So that’s the problem, that
approach then it’s jnana-misra, it’s mixed with impersonalism, because we are only seeing
half of the picture. So we say sarva-dharman… just give up everything then you don’t worry
about your nature, all this stuff, that’s all maya. True, if you are replacing it with your
spiritual nature. But to just remove the material nature and not establish the spiritual
nature that’s impersonalism, that’s what they need, in fact, that’s all they do.
These are the subtle points that are being given. That’s why such detail that goes to in
the sastra, because must of the time in our just day to day concepts they are correct, but they
are not fully correct. And if you are only taking it part way, then it will have the weakness
the philosophy that only has that much. Because if it doesn’t matter, then I don’t care about
individuals, and somebody is more emotional needs to be dealt with that way, oh, that’s just
maya, come on get over it, quit being trippy. Someone else needs to be in charge, just get off
it, just do what you are told. You just go on and on, and it sounds very Krsna conscious. On
one level it is, because we are not the body, we are not the mind, the intelligence. But that
doesn’t mean that not being the gross and subtle body means we don’t have an inherent
nature. You can’t separate the one from the other.
So that’s the subtlety that’s there is the approach is different. You give up all the
material religions, because you are approaching it from your conditioned nature, and simply
just surrender unto Krsna and engage your nature as the soul in Krsna’s service that’s
inherent. So from our platform it simply means always being engaged in Krsna’s service,
always trying to find a way that we can please Him. Now the detail then you work back, so
therefore what do you have to work with? Then you have your conditioned nature to work
with. But the conditioned nature wasn’t the impetus or motive in that devotional
conception.
Otherwise you say, I am here and I have this nature, ok, I am interested either in
married life or not married life, or being in the temple or not, and living at this kind of
social status like that, how I am going to make that money, I am comfortable making it this
way as an administrator as opposed to business, or I prefer business, or I prefer deity worship,
like this. So this way you situate yourself and you do it for Krsna. So you are conscious, you
know who you are, you know Krsna exists, you are conscious of Him, you are favorable that
you want to do all these things for Him, and you try to remove karma and jnana from it that
you are not doing it for yourself and you are doing it to please Krsna. So according to Rupa
Goswami’s definition of pure devotional service, it’s correct. It is correct.
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But at the same time, there are levels of pure devotional service. So the first level is the
madhyama, so that’s the lowest level of pure devotional service. According to the acaryas
the madhyama, if you are situated in the madhyama stage, that’s a pure devotee. So much of
the time devotees will say, oh, you have to be pure devotee, be a guru this that. Yes,
madhyama is pure devotee. He is a preacher. The mercy of the Lord flows through
madhyama adhikaris, not through uttamas, not through kanisthas. Uttamas don’t preach, so
they come down to the madhyama platform and then deliver the Lord’s mercy. Neophytes
are only worried about themselves, so they come up to the madhyama platform and preach.
So it’s through the duty of the madhyama that the Lord’s mercy is distributed. That’s why
the first offense to the holy name is to blaspheming devotees who have dedicated their lives
to preaching. Because all the Lord’s mercy comes through them. So this is pure devotee. But
it is still within the realm of conditioning. But they are advanced.
Then you come to the platform of bhava, so that’s your uttama adhikari, so that’s the
second level of pure devotee. And so it’s the budding stage of love of God. But it’s still not
love of God. And then coming to the platform of prema that’s the third stage. So you have
these stages.
So to be able to just engage yourself in the Lord’s service, your nature is the important
thing to you, that’s nice, so you are engaged. But then when that’s purified, so you are
serving Krsna according to your conditioned nature, because that’s the most direct way to
do it, rather than some other way, then that’s better. So now you are getting substance,
that’s getting real. But then it’s coming to the point where that’s not the consideration the
conditioned nature, it’s simply serving Krsna. And since this is what you can do with the
particular body, mind, and words that you have then that’s what you do.
The beginning stages of the Gita is describing to Arjuna, you are a ksatriya so engage
the ksatriya nature in the Lord’s service for His satisfaction, perform your duties as ksatriya.
With knowledge, so then that brings the actual action to the proper platform, then you are
dealing now with cit-potency. For Krsna and thinking of Krsna. So you have covered all the
different aspects of yoga. Perform your duties, karma-yoga, in knowledge jnana-yoga,
remembering Krsna dhyana-yoga, for Krsna’s pleasure bhakti-yoga. But we see where we
start from. So then later He says sarva-dharman-parityajya, you give up all varieties of
religion, means all these other aspects, and just surrender to Krsna. So then what does he
do? Now he just surrenders to Krsna whatever Krsna wants. So Krsna wants him to fight. So
therefore then he engages his ksatriya nature to please Krsna. It’s the opposite. So it has a
difference in flavor.
There is a difference if the order is changed. Your conditioned nature engaged in
Krsna’s service or engage in Krsna’s service according to your nature. So the actual platform
is according to your nature you engage, I mean excuse me, means that your love for Krsna is
the basis, based on that that will take a form. In other words, all living entities in the
spiritual world they have love for God. That’s the basic principle. Then that has a specific
quality, and then that quality has a specific form or field. But that love for God is the
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common element. So you are starting from there. Then from that then you have parental
affection. Then from parental affection then you have the environment of parental
affection. So it’s in the house, not out in the field. Mother Yasoda doesn’t come out into the
field. If mother Yasoda comes out into the field, it’s nice, but then the boys can’t play. So it’s
nice, but it reduces their rasa. But if she sends food out into the field, then everybody really
likes it. So you get your food plus you can still play. So everything is worked out very nicely.
So that’s how varnasrama-dharma can be called sanatana-dharma, because it works on
the same principle, you are engaging your nature in the Lord’s service. So when Lord
Caitanya speaking to Ramananda Raya is saying varnasrama is external that doesn’t mean
it’s not used. It just means that’s the external aspect, what’s behind that? Why are you
engaged in varnasrama activities? Because you are engaging your nature. So what’s the form
of that nature? It’s not conditioning, it’s the nature of the soul. So then that’s better, that’s
spiritual now. But still spiritual doesn’t really have much taste. It has to come to the
platform of devotional. Then taking up devotional now this is getting some substance now.
And then within that then there is varieties of this devotional taste, so then the taste in
Vraja its sweetness, its intensity, its fullness is greater than any other realm. Then within
that then the gopis then that’s the most fullest, and then within the gopis then Radharani.
So He is not neglecting the form, but He wants to discuss about the taste. Because if
Lord Caitanya actually thought varnasrama was useless, why did He follow it, why was He a
sannyasi? Why did He go begging, why did He take His bath in the ocean three times a day?
So that’s the thing, so easily we fall prey to the concept that spiritual means no form, that
immediately if we can get rid of any form we are happy to do it. Unfortunately we get rid of
form which comes from dharma and keep artha, as long as we make money it’s fine.
Devidasa: The conclusion is given in the words, “With great trouble one should
renounce everything and attain impersonal liberation.”
So now he studied the nyaya-sastras and the smrti and so then having studied them very
carefully now he wants to know what is Devidasa’s conclusion. So now Devidasa said, he is
quoting some verse “With great trouble one should renounce everything and attain impersonal
liberation.” So that’s nyaya. Basically all of the schools of Vedic thought they all end in
impersonalism except for Vyasa’s Uttara-mimamsa. So nyaya it’s by logic one comes to this
conclusion.
Therefore the conclusion of the scriptures is that one should struggle by every available
means to attain impersonal liberation. Therefore, while faithfully executing my prescribed
duties, I have sought impersonal liberation.
All schools understand that naiskarmya is the elevating principle. The problem is their
goal is only impersonal Brahman. Naiskarmya means you are performing an activity without
a desire for a result. So if you perform the activity and you desire a result means the activity
is completed but it’s produced a result. So now you are implicated in that result, you are
connected to that result. So there is no end, there is no cessation of that existence. But now
I perform an activity without a desire for a result, then that activity is finished, because the
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result is no longer connected to you. Because when you perform an activity part of karma is
the desire to do that activity again. So if the activity is performed without a desire for a
result, then that seed is not created. The desire of course to do things without a desire to do
things that will increase.
So that means then through the performance of your prescribed duties you come to the
transcendental platform, because you get out of material existence, because there is no more
karma. So all schools understand this principle for liberation. Karma-mimamsa doesn’t
worry about liberation not in our ancient forms, but in more recent times that means within
the Kali-yuga, then the authorities within that line have then brought once you finished up
to a particular point then when you take sannyasa then you get into jnana, then you move
to Uttara-mimamsa, of course, impersonal. So ultimately all the schools will end there.
But the point was that still in any case all of the schools accept the performance of
prescribed duties. That’s what makes them nastik, they follow the scriptures, scripture
performance prescribed duty. So to say we don’t follow varnasrama, we don’t care for
varnasrama is agnostic, and typically because we are saying the form isn’t important so that
doesn’t put it within karma, it puts it within jnana, because karma needs form, jnana
doesn’t. Ok, now what school of impersonal jnana or impersonal school that doesn’t accept
the scriptures what is that called? Buddhism. And what would be your Sanskrit terminology
for this school? Sunyavada. We chant it many times a day. Why do we chant this many
times a day? Because Prabhupada came to save us from this. Nirvisesa, form is maya,
sunyavada, there is nothing, it’s not based on scriptures. So if we throw out varnasrama and
not based on scriptural reference, not replacing it by some form that is higher, then that is
Buddhism.
So these are things we have to be very careful of. We see here Devidasa is not an
agnostic, he believes firmly in the scripture, he follows his brahminical duties very nicely,
but he is only following it up to Brahman, he stops at Brahman, he is not interested beyond
Brahman. So there is the weakness, that’s the fault. But the principle of naiskarmya all
schools follow that. It’s the only way to do things. So you are performing your duties, you
like the duties, you like the results of those duties, but out of proper intelligence you are not
claiming the result. So you are either on the lower level of getting the result, then giving it
to the Lord, or you are performing the activity that the result is already the Lord’s before
you get it. So either sakama or niskama-karma. So this naiskarmya is actually your dynamic
platform. So all schools follow that. So it’s not just something strange that is there. It’s just
standard. Everybody accept the scriptures, everyone accepts prescribed duties, then
everyone accepts naiskarmya. That’s all schools. So that’s just fundamental. So sitting
around wondering if that’s even an option it’s not actually recommended.
Sri Vaisnava dasa: At one time I also studied all books, and, like you, I also yearned to
attain impersonal liberation.
Remember Sri Vaisnava dasa was card-carrying flag-waving Varanasi sannyasi, complete
Mayavadi. But he met the devotees and became impressed by that. Then coming to
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Navadvipa and associating with the devotees in Navadvipa then he came to the Vaisnava
platform. But you see how he is going about it, how gentle it is. He doesn’t even present that
he knows, oh, so what did you study? Have you studied the scriptures? Yes, I studied this
from this this this. Oh, and so what was your conclusion? He doesn’t get in there to prove
that he knows. Just go to the conclusion, and then having conclusion, oh, yes, that’s there, I
also did that, I also did that, and wanted for this. And saying it in such a way, I yearned for
it and this and that, because that’s what the other person wants. But then at some point he
has caught him intellectually and emotionally, so he has both. And then from that he is
going to switch it into the devotional side.
Devidasa: Why did you abandon the desire for impersonal liberation?
Sri Vaisnava dasa: Child, tell me: What is the nature of impersonal liberation?
He is saying because people are saying this is the goal. So what is the nature of that?
Yeah, we have to be practical, we just realistic get out there and do something. Ok, nice, but
what does that actually mean? What does that look like? What does being practical mean?
You ask that then what is going to be the answer? The person might have to stop and think,
or it’s because it comes down to just what they feel, or what gets the work done. Ok, describe
getting the work done. Ok, you got all the devotees out on the street, they all got books in
their bags, they are out on the street, so you got it done. So does getting it done have
anything to do with inspiring the devotees to get out there, or you simply manage to get
them out there? So it’s in your definition of what is your goal that actually defines your
method. Then you can actually see if it’s broad enough or if it’s too narrow.
Especially with here because he is talking, he is a Nyayist. So in logic one of the main
principles is your definition, your definition has to be exact, otherwise it could mean so
many other things. It could mean anything. So it has to be very specific. So now he is trying
to get specific. Because for a Nyayist that’s natural. So he won’t say, what’s your trip, why
are you doing this? No, they will naturally have to answer because that’s what they do.
Devidasa: In the opinion of the nyaya-sastras, Brahman and the individual soul are
eternally distinct. How, then, is it possible to renounce everything and attain impersonal
liberation. According to this system, it is clearly not possible. According to the Vedanta
philosophy, however, liberation is defined as understanding that the individual soul and the
Supreme are not really different from each other. According to this system, then,
impersonal liberation is clearly possible.
So he is a Nyayist but he actually has to go, means even though nyaya accepts
impersonal liberation, but it’s still is not based on this illusory concept that Sankara is
giving. That’s why Sankara’s philosophy is actually technically not Vedic. It’s Buddism that
you base it on quotes from the Vedic literature to establish it, but it’s actually Buddhist
philosophy. Because he is saying what’s actually here doesn’t exist. Mayavada philosophy
means what you see here isn’t actually here, it’s an illusion that it’s there, it’s actually not
here. So therefore you just remove that illusion and you are Brahman. But nyaya says, no,
the soul is eternal, God is eternal. But in nyaya the soul has no interest in interacting with
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God. So God is just you are performing activities within the material sphere that is
producing karma and you are entangled in it. So you stop producing karma, you are not
entangled in it. So being entangled is causing you trouble, not being entangled you won’t
have trouble. That’s the idea, very simple. But they exist that you’ll just exist in that state.
So it’s ultimately an impersonal state because then you have no form and all this, but it’s as
you would say specifically atheistic, because God is there, He is eternal, He is supreme, He
controls everything, they accept that. But they don’t care. So they are kind of like similar to
the, means in position similar to the devotees, but in mood completely the opposite. The
Vrajavasis couldn’t care less that Krsna is God either, but they want a relationship with
Him. While here He is God, great, but they aren’t interested in a relationship.
So he is pointing out actually impersonal liberation is not possible actually in any of the
Vedic schools, means not as Mayavada. Because what he is talking about is Mayavada.
Because as soon as he says it’s all illusion you know it’s Mayavada. Real impersonalism means
it’s actually all just Brahman, you are not worried about the form. The form exists, you know
it exists. Sukadeva Goswami was a bona fide impersonalist, and he was running down the
road away from his father’s house. Why didn’t he bump into any trees? How come he didn’t
fall into that body of water where the girls were taking bath? Why not? Because if it’s all
Brahman it’s all one, then that means there is no distinguishing. It’s all one there is no
distinguishing, that’s Mayavada philosophy. Actual impersonalism it’s all one, but it’s just its
quality is the same. So your interest is Brahman, but you can tell the difference in Brahman.
Just like a man he is interested in money. So for him money, you give him a 10$ bill, you
give him a 100$ bill he is happy, why? Because it’s money. Can he tell the difference
between the two? Yes. But to him he only sees money. He goes out, looks at, wow, look at all
these people, we could do some money, make some money, or goes to another situation, wow
we can make money here. So he sees money everywhere, but he can distinguish. So that’s
the actual Vedic impersonalism, you can distinguish but you are only interested in God at
the Brahman platform. That’s why then Sukadeva Goswami and the four Kumaras because
they are actually accepting God in a bona fide form but the lowest level, so when they come
in contact with Bhagavan, which is the highest level, since their interest is in God then they
can see the superiority of God as a person as opposite to God in His impersonal feature.
That’s why they move forward. But technically speaking Mayavadis don’t move forward,
unless they are somehow or another blessed by the devotees. Even they come in contact
with God that doesn’t matter to them, because it’s all illusion. You understand the
difference here? That’s why Brahmavadis are different than Mayavadis. Brahmavadis are
bona fide seekers of the truth, just they haven’t gone to that high of a level. But Mayavadis
are just insincere, they are in illusion. Because they like Buddhist say there is nothing here.
But if nothing is here then that means the scriptures don’t exist, your speech doesn’t exist,
nothing exists. So why are they talking? If it’s all illusion then they would be quiet. But they
love to talk. Why? Because they are in illusion.
So he is pointing out only by Vedanta you can do.
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Sri Vaisnava dasa: Child, for fifteen years I studied Sankara’s interpretation of Vedanta,
and after that I accepted sannyasa. In many ways I struggled to attain impersonal liberation.
For many days I meditated on what Sankara considered the four most important statements
of the Vedas. Afterward, thinking them all foolish, I rejected what I had read.
Now notice here in one he says fifteen years he studied and in the other he said for
many days, what’s the difference? Why would he use one is fifteen and the other he would
just say many days?
Devotee (4): …contemplating what he had studied before…he had realized something that
was… much faster to contemplate.
Maharaja: Ok, yes, you can say that. That means it would be you study for so long and then
knowing the field then you are able to work within it so very quickly. That would definitely.
Another aspect is the one is the field, so then you can take it as authority, he studied for 15
years Sankara-bhasya, that’s a long time to study one sastra. There is only 555 sutras. I mean
that’s according to us, Sankara has a different number. But that’s all there is. So it’s not that
big of a scripture. But he studied that for 15 years. But then he says for many days, that
means now you are dealing within the realm of realization, in other words, the experiential,
he is trying to obtain that platform. So in that then that just was days. Your life just actually
goes in days, because the experience is only days. You can say, I did all this. About three
seconds you said it in. So that’s it, your 15 years has been spoken in three seconds. So it’s all
it has, it’s just experientially is a few moments. So it’s not contradictory, because one is
dealing with the field, the observable, one is dealing with the experiential.
So it’s always important to note that because otherwise then like before the question
came up, it says, oh, today you chant, maybe tomorrow, so is that being realistic, is it
exaggeration? No, because in your experience it goes by that quick. And so in a few days,
maybe in a few days, or that in a few days maybe in lifetimes, but the point is the experience
is going to be the same.
Devidasa: Why did you think those books were foolish?
Sri Vaisnava dasa: Child, a person should examine his own heart. How can others do it
for him? How can others understand his heart?
Devidasa could see that Sri Vaisnava dasa was honest, intelligent and very learned.
Devidasa had never studied Vedanta. In his heart he thought, “If he is merciful to me, I can
learn Vedanta from him.” Thinking in this way, he said, “Am I qualified to study Vedanta?”
Sri Vaisnava dasa: You know Sanskrit well, so you may easily study Vedanta.
Devidasa: If you feel merciful to me, then please teach it to me. I would learn it from
you.
Sri Vaisnava dasa: These are my words: I am a penniless servant of the Vaisnavas.
Because I attained the mercy of a saintly paramahamsa babaji, I stay here and always chant
the holy names of Lord Hari. I have very little opportunity to teach anyone Vedanta. Also, I
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have heard that Srila Rupa Goswami, who is the spiritual master of the entire world, has
forbidden the Vaisnavas to hear or explain Sankara’s Sariraka-bhasya commentary on
Vedanta. Therefore now I will neither study nor teach Sankara’s commentary. Lord
Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is the son of Saci-devi and the spiritual master of all living
entities, taught the right commentary of Vedanta-sutra to Sri Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya.
His commentary is recorded in the notebooks of many Vaisnavas. If you make a copy of that
commentary, then perhaps I can help you. Go to Kancana-palli and you may get a copy of
that commentary from the home of Sriman Kavikarnapura.
Because we remember that the situation of this pastime or the narration here is just
after Lord Caitanya has left, and basically most of His associates still seem to be present. So
when he is saying Kavikarnapura he means Kavikarnapura.
So interested here is he also, Sariraka-bhasya was the discussion of Vedanta. So he is
saying we don’t study those things. I don’t have time and we don’t bother with it. But if you
can get a copy of the Vaisnava understanding then that can be discussed. And the
interesting to note is then that is the discussion of Lord Caitanya with Sarvabhauma
Bhattacarya, that he at the time he was the biggest Mayavadi in India, there was no one
bigger than him. So Lord Caitanya to discuss Vedanta with him then that would be the most
detailed discussion. So by studying that then you are going to actually understand of the
Vedanta philosophy.
Devidasa: I will try. You are a great scholar of Vedanta. You have spoken honestly with
me. Why should I not study the Vaisnava commentary on Vedanta?
So now he is seeing, the point is the teacher should be intelligent, honest. So he is seeing
that. So he is actually though he is misdirected he is not insincere. So this is the advantage
of the Vedic culture, somebody is following these things, they have their conclusion, but
when they come in contact with something higher they take it.
I think it was Maharaja Pracinabarhisat, he was a big karma-kandi. But coming in
contact with Narada Muni then he understood that there is something beyond. Before that
he never knew that there was anything outside of karma-kanda. Because all the brahmanas
he ever associated with all they knew was karma-kanda. They didn’t know anything else.
But when he met Narada Muni, then he understood there was something beyond, so they
immediately take it up.
Sri Vaisnava dasa: In the past I have studied and taught Sankara’s commentary. There is
also Sri Ramanujacarya’s Sri-bhasya and many other commentaries also. The Bengali
Vaisnavas have the commentary that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave to Sri Gopinatha
Acarya. I have not seen any commentary better than that. No one can dispute the Supreme
Personality of Godhead’s own explanations of the Vedanta-sutras. Commentaries on the
Vedanta-sutras should include many quotations from the Upanisads. If one simply writes
what he thinks, and does not support his arguments with quotations from the Upanisads,
learned persons will not accept his commentary.
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So we see it goes back to Upanisads. That’s why you could say your opening to this book
so it’s appreciated or it’s inspired is the Sri Caitanya Siksamrta, so in that book then
Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives the essence of the Vaisnava philosophy, the Gaudiya
philosophy in the dasa-mula. All his evidence goes back to Upanisads, everything. So it’s not
that we can’t take it back to Upanisads. And it’s not that, ok, that’s the basic core
philosophy, but we are talking about Vraja and Radha and Krsna and all that, then that’s a
different topic. No. He even takes those back to Upanisads. Establishing Radha Krsna the
relationship for that he quotes Upanisads. So that’s the point, it can be done.
Happy at heart to hear these words, Devidasa Vidyaratna offered dandavat obeisances to
Sri Vaisnava dasa. Then Devidasa entered his father’s cottage and told him all that had
been said. Filled with happiness, his father said, “Devi, you have studied and taught many
books. Now you should research the eternal nature of the soul.”
Devidasa: Father, I had earnestly hoped to bring you away from Sri Godruma. That is
why I came here. Please be merciful. Come back just once and fulfill everyone’s desires.
Especially my saintly mother yearns to see your feet just one more time.
He is saying studied all the scriptures and then now you see the soul. There is many
quotes also in the scriptures of great personalities doing this. Narada Muni there is a quote
from him it says this. I forget, maybe it’s Pipalaya. But there is two different quotes of great
sages, big sages, like Narada Muni who says they list all the scriptures they have studied, but
then they are approaching somebody now you please teach me about God and the
relationship of the soul with God. So his point is he has studied the scriptures, now he
should try to understand them in relationship to the actual nature of the soul.
Lahiri Mahasaya: I have taken shelter of the Vaisnavas’ feet. I have made a solemn vow
that I shall never return home, for even a visit would obstruct my devotional life. In the past
you have all worshipped Lord Visnu. You may all visit me.
Devidasa: Father, what kind of answer is that? At our home we are all servants of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead. We do not dishonor the holy names of Lord Hari. I am
always ready to serve a Vaisnava guest! Are we not Vaisnavas?
Lahiri Mahasaya: If you think your activities are the same as the Vaisnavas’ activities,
then you are not a Vaisnava.
Devidasa: Father, why am I not a Vaisnava?
Or in Sankrit, why am I avaisnava?
Lahiri Mahasaya: A Vaisnava renounces temporary material duties and takes shelter of
his eternal spiritual duty.
Devidasa: Still, I have one doubt. You have given a very good analysis of the scriptures.
The Vaisnavas’ activities of hearing (sravana), chanting (kirtana), remembering (smarana),
serving the feet (pada-sevana), worship (arcana), obeisances (vandana), carrying out the
orders (dasya), friendship (sakhya), and surrendering everything (atma-nivedana) are
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activities mixed with materialism. Are they not all impelled by material motives? I think you
are unreasonably attached to these things. Worshipping the Deity of the Lord, fasting, and
worshipping the Lord by offering Him material things are all material activities. How can
they be eternal?
Now we are coming to the core topic of the chapter. He has heard all these things and
this is very nice but still he is seeing the externals, he is still seeing as a mundane process.
And he still is contaminated by impersonalism that you have to actually give up all form to
actually be spiritual. So that’s underlying, so that’s why Vaisnava dasa says he is not actually
devotee. Because they are worshiping Visnu, they are doing all the activities, but they don’t
actually understand the nature of devotional service. So now that’s what’s going to come up,
that devotional service that is then the nature of the soul, that is eternal religion: chapter,
vaidhi-bhakti, the eternal religion is not temporary. (end of lecture) (end)
March 2, 2010
Maharaja:
Devidasa: Father, I had earnestly hoped to bring you away from Sri Godruma. That is
why I came here. Please be merciful. Come back just once and fulfill everyone’s desires.
Especially my saintly mother yearns to see your feet just one more time.
Lahiri Mahasaya: I have taken shelter of the Vaisnavas’ feet. I have made a solemn vow
that I shall never return home, for even a visit would obstruct my devotional life. In the past
you have all worshipped Lord Visnu. You may all visit me.
Devidasa: Father, what kind of answer is that? At our home we are all servants of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead. We do not dishonor the holy names of Lord Hari. I am
always ready to serve a Vaisnava guest! Are we not Vaisnavas?
Lahiri Mahasaya: If you think your activities are the same as the Vaisnavas’ activities,
then you are not a Vaisnava.
Devidasa: Father, why am I not a Vaisnava?
Lahiri Mahasaya: A Vaisnava renounces temporary material duties and takes shelter of
his eternal spiritual duty.
Devidasa: Still, I have one doubt. You have given a very good analysis of the scriptures.
The Vaisnavas’ activities of hearing (sravana), chanting (kirtana), remembering (smarana),
serving the feet (pada-sevana), worship (arcana), obeisances (vandana), carrying out the
orders (dasya), friendship (sakhya), and surrendering everything (atma-nivedana) are
activities mixed with materialism. Are they not all impelled by material motives? I think you
are unreasonably attached to these things. Worshipping the Deity of the Lord, fasting, and
worshipping the Lord by offering Him material things are all material activities. How can
they be eternal?
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Lahiri Mahasaya: Son, I have thought about these things for many days. Please think
about this carefully. There are two classes of human beings: 1. those who are interested in
this material world, the here and now and 2. those who are interested in the highest goal of
life. The materialists are interested only in material happiness, material fame, and material
exalted status.
Human beings who are interested in the highest goal of life are divided into three
classes: 1. the devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, 2. those who are attached to
impersonal speculation, and 3. those who desire mystic powers.
So here is some very fine points that are coming up. How do you define Vaisnavas, how
do you define the devotees? Because here we see Devidasa and their family, they are smarta
brahmanas, but smartas actually technically consider themselves devotees. And the term
smarta actually is their term, it’s not a derogatory. We use it, but it’s not a derogatory. Just
like Mayavadis call themselves Mayavadis. Sahajiyas call themselves sahajiyas, that’s what
they call. Americans call themselves Americans. So all these different terms are there. And
then there is ockers.
So they are not sure because they are following all the activities that a devotee would do,
the same sadhana, they get up in the morning, they attend their mangala-aratikas, they do
their puja, take their baths, chant their Gayatris, study scriptures, teach scriptures, they do
all the same things. They offer their food. According to the karma-kanda you are worshiping
any demigod you have to worship Saligrama first. And having worshiped Saligrama then
only the remnants of that are given to the demigod. It’s just the process. Therefore every
brahmana technically may consider himself a devotee, because he is worshiping Visnu.
Jarasandha he had brahmanas, he was very careful about the worship of Saligrama in his
temples. He mentions it in Krsnabook. He was very careful to see that that worship was
going on properly, because if it’s not then your karma-kanda ritual will not work. So these
karma-kandis then they are doing these. So he is saying why aren’t we devotees, we are
worshiping the Lord. If Vaisnavas come to our house we’ll take care of them and serve them.
We are not doing anything, we are not saying don’t chant the holy name. So why do you say
we are not devotees?
So then he is pointing out here as we’ll see more and more, the purpose is not devotion.
It’s actually the karma-kanda, they are going to perform their activity, is in their mind a
pious activity that will get them a pious result. That’s the point. So devotee means they are
doing it for Krsna, that’s the meaning, that’s eternal. Not doing it for Krsna, that’s
temporary. So the difference is Vaisnavas give up temporary duties, but non-Vaisnavas
don’t. So now in the definition of temporary and permanent duties the tendency is to think,
ok, giving up temporary duties means giving up all the activities that are given in the sastras
and varnasrama and sadhana-bhakti, because it’s external this position. But the point is
that’s not the point. The point is is it connected to Krsna or not? That’s what makes it
eternal or temporary.
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This one point if it can be understood makes the whole rest of the devotional process go
so much easier, because then we see that if it’s connected to Krsna it’s fine, if it’s not
connected it’s not fine. And that connection then the stronger the connection the better it
is. In other words, if we just say it’s connected then there is a nice sentiment, so there is
some connection, but in practicality it’s not so strong. Then if we take that and we make it
practical, we can explain it, we work on that principle, then it becomes very strong. But in
any case, that’s the difference between whether something is Krsna conscious or not, if it’s
connected to Krsna. It’s not what’s being performed, it’s whether it’s connected to Krsna or
not.
Now in sadhana-bhakti there is a recommendation of activities to perform. These
activities are considered your best activities. Because if you are doing it for Krsna then it
should be good, the quality should be good. You want to offer the best to Krsna, so the
scriptures say these are the best activities to be performing in connection to Krsna. But
more important than the best activites and not so best is is it connected to Krsna. Better and
not so good situation connected to Krsna and an ideal perfect situation not connected to
Krsna.
But that doesn’t mean then one can say, see, the good situation doesn’t matter, I can
connect anything to Krsna. Yes, you can, but why would you make that statement unless it’s
you prefer the lower level activities over higher level activities. So it’s about you there. So
that means that approach is not as devotional as what is Krsna’s pleasure. So if I am in a
position to use or engage a higher activity in Krsna’s service, I will do that. But if that’s not
available I’ll offer the next best, I’ll offer the tenth best, but I’ll offer something. But to say
tenth best is fine, why I should worry about the first, that’s being fanatic. Then that means
it’s about ourself. It’s not about Krsna. It’s connected to Krsna, that’s good. So that will keep
you in the devotional line. But as far as dynamic progression that will be slow, because it’s
mixed.
That’s what he was mentioning previously about mixed devotional service. When these
aspects become too strong, too prominent, then it slows us down. When it’s not prominent
you are engaging something because you have it, you like this, this and that, but the
emphasis is on Krsna, that will be very quick. So it’s not that mixed devotional service is
inherently is a problem if the main focus is on pleasing Krsna. But if the main focus is on
the mix, in other words, if it’s mixed that means it’s Krsna conscious and not Krsna
conscious, where is your focus, on the Krsna conscious part or on the non-Krsna conscious
part? If your focus is on the non-Krsna conscious part that’s a problem. If your focus is on
the Krsna conscious part it’s not really a problem, because very quickly the non-Krsna
conscious part will go away.
So that’s the weakness in the argument that, oh, don’t be fanatic, you can do anything.
Yes, that’s true, but where is your emphasis, on you can do anything or you are doing it for
Krsna? Where is the emphasis? That’s the point. Because it’s not because you did it Krsna
has to accept it. The guy brings some flowers to the girl. It’s up to her to accept it or not. She
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doesn’t have to because, hey, I went out and spent 23 dollars on these flowers here, so you
better take them, you better be happy. Does it work like that? No. Krsna is still a person, He
is independent.
Devotee (1): You said that the Krsna conscious part goes away. Is it that it goes away or that
it becomes Krsna conscious by your consciousness of it?
Maharaja: The point is not-Krsna conscious goes away by being Krsna conscious. In other
words, it’s a step by step process. First is one is engaged in activities that have nothing to do
with Krsna. Second, next is that you engage those very activities in Krsna’s service. But it
will be prominent you are using those activities because that’s what you are doing. You are
going to eat lunch, you are going to cook a certain preparation anyway and so you offer that
to Krsna. But with time it becomes more cooking for Krsna. Until you get to the point what
would Krsna like to eat and cook that for Krsna.
So in other words, it’s the connection to Krsna that’s the dynamic element. Is it that
nice 720 copper wire that makes everything perfect or is it the electricity? Because you have
that nice arrangement, but if there is no electricity it doesn’t work. So that’s the dynamic
element is the Krsna consciousness. Then there is quality of you are working with material
energy, so in material energy there is superior and inferior objects and qualities of those
objects. So since you are already dealing with inferior you might as well get the best.
It’s just like they would come pick Prabhupada up at the airport with a Rolls Royce, or
what was that, He comes to Australia, Swami comes Rolls’ing in. And they are asking how is
it you are renounced and this and that? Prabhupada’s point is it’s a tin can, it’s just a better
tin can. So since the spiritual master is representing God you want to give the best to God,
so therefore you consider the Rolls Royce the best. But otherwise as far as the local street
dog he’ll pass urine on the Rolls Royce as much as he’ll pass urine on the Fiat or something
like that, he doesn’t care, it doesn’t matter to him. So we say, oh, this is superior material. So
according to that then it’s defined what’s superior and inferior. And that’s based ultimately
on Krsna’s pleasure from the spiritual world. So what Krsna considers superior there that’s
what the devotees offer and that’s reflected here. So it’s the same arrangements there but
there it’s out of love, here it’s self-centered. But the point is where you emphasize is what’s
going to grow.
Devotee (1): The activity if it’s mixed the activity done, like if someone is good at playing a
guitar or something that may go, that they may still do that…
Maharaja: It’s connected to Krsna, but where is the emphasis? On pleasing Krsna or on
playing the guitar. You can tell the difference. You can tell because one sounds like a
devotee, the other sounds like Arlo Guthrie and even not as good as Arlo Guthrie, at least
he makes money. That’s where you tell the difference.
Devotee (1): But eventually that form even one prefers something that Krsna likes…
Maharaja: Yes, means one may prefer to move up in that. Means if one is really attached to
string instrument, one kind of string instrument does Krsna like? So He likes vina, so then
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play that. If one really has to be an instrumental, then great. But if not then you use it in
such a way that is the Krsna conscious element is what’s prominent.
Because the point is someone has a mood, therefore they have a style of music, therefore
they have their sound. The sound is according to their mood. So you change the mood you
change the music. So you have these rock groups, they have a particular mood, they are
rough, they are ready, drugs, women following around as groupies, so they are not very
important, so that’s their music. While you take someone else, Frank Sinatra, the same
thing, alcohol and women are his thing, but he values them, he deals with them nicely,
therefore his music is very different.
So the point is if its point is pleasing Krsna and devotional will that not have a
difference in how you present how you use that guitar? It doesn’t mean it becomes
unprofessional or simplistic like some kid in the garage, it can be very sophisticated because
Krsna is the most sophisticated, why it won’t be good?
Means years ago, I think it was back in the 80s, there was one devotee who he was a
musician, he used to take just straight out of the Krsnabook, he would take passages out of
the Krsnabook and he would sing those and they were done very professionally, and they are
very unique. It was still your rock music, but it was very unique, because the idea was just it
is about Krsna and Krsna’s pastimes, but he was using that. Then you have the others that
get up there, rrrrr this and that, and it’s kind of like if you want to watch that, hey, you go
out and buy a ticket to some professionals, why watch this nonsense?
Devotee (1): The only thing is that they choose to do it in the association of devotees, but
really the emphasis is on them.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s on them and what they are doing. So its emphasis is on the music. That’s
the point, I think it’s an American-Indian example, he says in the heart then there is two
wolves, good and bad, so whichever one you feed gets bigger. So you have the devotional and
you have the non-devotional. Whichever one you are emphasizing that’s the one that gets
bigger and then it eats the other one. So if the devotional is the emphasis it becomes
prominent, the non-devotional becomes secondary. But if the non-devotional is the primary
then the devotional actually wanes until one disappears. Prabhupada said another face in
the crowd.
Is that ok? We understand this? It’s a very natural thing, it slides from one into the
other, it’s seemless. So it just depends upon your consciousness which it is. So that’s what he
is pointing out, Devidasa, the emphasis on the karma-kanda is the complete prominence. So
even though they are doing the same activities as devotees it’s not even devotional at all, so
they are not even devotees. While a devotee may be doing exactly the same thing but the
emphasis is on the devotional aspect, so it’s called sadhana-bhakti, so it’s eternal. While
what Devidasa and his smarta community are performing is temporary.
So when we say temporary duties we mean connected to Krsna is eternal, not connected
to Krsna is temporary. That’s what we mean. We don’t mean, oh, varnasrama that’s
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temporary duties. No, because Nanda Baba is what varna? Vaisya. What asrama? Grhastha.
Now if you put together varna and asrama what do you get? Varnasrama. So does that mean
they don’t follow varnasrama? Why did Nanda Baba and all the cowherd men along with
Krsna take all kinds of ghee and yoghurt and all that and go to Mathura? To offer to the
king. Just out of love and devotion? No, it’s a tax.
What’s his name? It’s like the Govardhana Mazindar, is that his name? You have Nanda
Baba, you have Vrsabhanu, and then you have him. He is like the head in Yavat. Means
Abhimanyu, Radharani’s so-called husband is good friends with him. So then now and again
then he’ll threaten Radharani or threaten Krsna that he is going to go to this friend who is
friends with Kamsa and they are going to bring their constables, their policemen, and they
are going to arrest Krsna and take Him away.
Have you heard anything here that is not part of varnasrama? But the point here in
Vraja, the emphasis is 108% on pleasing Krsna. They are not looking for results from the
performance of varnasrama duties for themselves. It’s only that the varnasrama gives the
best results, I want to please Krsna, so therefore I use varnasrama in Krsna’s service, and the
results are totally Krsna’s.
So that’s the thing. So you are going to have someone performing varnasrama simply for
their own benefit directly, then you can be performing varnasrama that is naiskarmya that
they are not trying to get the material benefit but they want to clear any material reactions
and come to the impersonal platform. Or then the devotees they perform the same activities
as the karma-kandi, the same naiskarmya as the jnana-kandis, but it’s done to please Krsna,
it’s in devotion. But the emphasis is on the devotion, not on the karma and jnana. So
therefore there is no mix. Because the karma is simply the activity is for Krsna and the
proper not being interested, it’s not fruitive, you are not interested in your own, so therefore
it’s being done.
So we see this? Because it overlaps, this is why it becomes difficult to see. That’s why
previously the acaryas gave dvaita-advaita, it’s one it’s two, this is Nimbarkacarya. Because
he is preaching worship of Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana in spontaneous devotional
service, so raganuga-bhakti. I think there was even a court case not sure when, but back at
the time of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that the Nimbarka sampradaya wanted to
take the Gaudiya sampradaya to court that they are stealing our idea of raganuga-bhakti. I
think it’s Kesava Maharaja came forward, because they were from a ksatriya family, Kesava
Maharaja and his brother Audalomi, so they were a bit fierce in their performance of
devotional activities. So then he came forward and told the representatives from the
Nimkarka, he says, ok, great, you just give us one evidence anywhere that Nimbarkacarya
existed. Vaisnavas know he existed, they know things about him. But there is no evidence in
any sastra or any other written literature. So they dropped the case. But the point was they
tried to make a case saying we are just taking their philosophy putting our own twist on it
and calling it our own. So it’s so similar that they could make this mistake. But we see in
their presentation it’s dvaita-advaita. So easy, it’s one it’s two. That’s easy, anybody can
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catch that. But to say it’s simultaneously one and two at the same time, two contradictory
things are happening exactly at the same time without any problem that’s our philosophy.
So that’s why these points are hard to understand. So it’s by the association of devotees that
one is able to appreciate this. Otherwise if one is simply going by practical management
then one is going to make a mistake, because it appears that’s not practical. But ultimately if
your point is pleasing Krsna on the highest platforms of rasa it’s the only practical method.
It’s the only practical method, because any other concept will fall short, because it has to be
clear.
For them there is only sambhoga, there is no such thing as vipralambha in the Nimbarka
sampradaya. Radha and Krsna are always together. But there is the flavor of vipralambha,
example given in the pastime of prema-sarovara. The two are sitting there together and a
bee comes in is buzzing around Radharani’s face. So then Madhumangala comes and shoos
the bee away and then he whispers to Radharani Madhu is gone. So Radharani, even though
Krsna is sitting exactly right next to her, she thinks Krsna has left. So out of separation she
thinks He is gone. So she starts crying, and then Krsna somehow or another that mood He
becomes absorbed thinks Radharani has left, so both of them are crying so much that makes
it a kunda, but they are sitting right next to each other. So this is how the Nimbarkas
approach vipralambha. So they are always together, in fact, they worship them…we worship
the deities Pancaratra, they are always together, Krsna in the morning doesn’t get up and
split, you got to do the puja earlier otherwise He is gone, because He went back to
Nandagram, no, they are together all the time. So they are worshiping on that Pancarartika
level. It’s spontaneous, but they are always together in the different kunjas, they have names
for the kunjas, for us they are just kunjas, but for them they have names the kunjas. So in
this kunja then they do this pastime, you sing this raga, because at this time of the day
they’ll go there. Very intimate, very nice, but it’s very clear, it’s just that, it’s all nice and
wonderful and everybody is happy. There is no vipralambha. So how deep can it go? It’s
good, it’s deep. But more deep is if you can handle that they are together, they are not
together.
In other words, the element of masculine and femininity is emphasized to the fullest
extent that it has to create separation, because they are two different entities. Krsna is a
masculine principle, His creation the feminine they are different, creator, created. So that
difference that’s what’s being appreciated. Sambhoga means you are seeing what’s common.
Vipralambha you are seeing what’s different. So that even in sambhoga then becomes
evident, because in the other they are always together. Nimbarkas they are together, it’s so
sweet, and Krsna says this and Radharani says that. I hope I didn’t offend you are a
Nimbarka and I didn’t know it.
Devotee (1): I have to admit, Maharaja.
Maharaja: You have to admit, ok.
Devotee (1): I had a… Krsnabook where Krsna leaves the rasa dance I mean the
Bhagavatam…
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Maharaja: Because He is always with Radharani, they have explanations. Because that will
be the Bhagavatam is giving the gist, you have seven days, so how much is there? Someone
who knows then by in the verses it’s just like we’ll say Radharani’s name is never mentioned,
because he can’t. You’ll mention it because of the time element. But in there I have seen
persons being able to say what is there and just by the mood that the verse is presenting they
can tell you who is standing there. This is talking about Lalita, this part of the verse is
Visakha, this is talking about the other gopis. So like this they’ll have their full explanation,
so it’s not a problem. See, for us it’s not a problem, that is true, that does go on, and then
there is Vraja.
In other words, God being unlimited that means the manifestation of the pastime are
unlimited so the pastimes according to the Nimbarkas are going on. I think it’s Visvanatha
he talks about this aisvarya-Vrndavana, that it’s lower Goloka. Is it Visvanatha? Lower
Goloka in there the same pastimes, but they are done in opulence. When Radharani goes to
the rasa dance to meet Krsna she gets in a swan airplane with ten million maidservants.
That’s a big swan airplane. And goes to the rasa dance to meet Krsna. So it’s the same rasa
dance, same all these things, but it’s done in opulence. That’s why when we say, means we
say Krsna, but it means we say Vraja Krsna, because that’s specific. Because otherwise if you
are not careful you don’t take the mood of our acaryas, who knows where you’ll end up?
Andala of the Sri sampradaya, she exclusively worships Krsna in Vrndavana with the
gopis, but her mood is that of a gopi who directly interacts with Krsna. And it’s from the
platform that Visnu is so amazing and so great that He has these wonderful sweet pastimes
in Vrndavana. So it’s Lord Visnu as Krsna. And so there you have Radha and Krsna and
pastimes and rasa dance and all that, but it’s Visnu who is doing them.
So when we say you follow in the footsteps means we follow in the footsteps, otherwise
where you’ll end up who knows? God knows, so God only knows. That’s why we are very
specific. That’s why all this do whatever you like, whatever feels good do it, isn’t good
enough for us. You can do that, yes, but where you are going to end up we are not interested.
We are very specific. When you emphasize this masculine feminine principle then even
when Radha and Krsna are together still they are not together, because Radharani is upset
and won’t talk to Krsna. But in ananda-Vrndavana, we are talking Vraja Vrndavana, in
ananda-Vrndavana Radha and Krsna are always together, it’s always favorable, it’s always
nice. If there is any little argument it will be very sweetly done from the right wing side, just
a little something to say something, just to bring out a little flavor, and that’s enough to
create, it’s sublte, it doesn’t need to be more. But for us that still that’s not the full
manifestation. The full Krsna and full Radharani then you have that difference eternally.
So therefore even they are together they can be not together.
Devotee (2): Like Caitanaya Mahaprabhu.
Maharaja: Yes, like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So that’s why Krsna comes as Caitanya
Mahaprabhu to taste. The others are obvious. That’s not obvious. Therefore Krsna Himself,
God has to come as His own devotee to taste it. So that’s what’s being offered. When it says
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this has never been given before, this is what’s never been given before. Otherwise Radha
and Krsna, raganuga-bhakti, Vrndavana, mahabhava, that’s all there, Nimbarka gave that
5000 years ago. So what is unique? This is what’s unique. And one can say, yes, it’s the
madananayaka-mahabhava, great. But what is the environment that madananayaka-
mahabhava has some meaning? Ok, you know the terminology, look up in your rasique
dictionary, ok that means that mood when Radharani is so attached to Krsna and the
jealous anger is so much that even the plants and the trees exhibit jealousy, now that’s
jealous, the whole aura of everything is jealousy, that only Radharani manifests. Ok, but
what’s that environment? Why would she be doing that? Who is that Krsna she is
manifesting towards? What is their relationship? Otherwise it’s just a definition. You are
only talking sambandha here, you are not talking prayojana.
This is the trick, we say it’s rasique, nice. But rasique means you are tasting. If you are
only identifying, that’s sambandha-jnana. It’s just top level sambandha-jnana, but it’s still
sambandha-jnana.
Devotee (2): By ignoring this aspect what could be a danger to read books that are
describing the loving pastimes of Radha and Krsna?
Maharaja: Technically no, because the point is whatever your level of understanding that’s
what you are going to see. The danger is that we don’t take so seriously what Rupa Goswami
gives, what the acaryas give how they present it, that’s exactly what we have to take. And if
we think that it’s not so important, we are not being fanatic or this or that, that’s dangerous,
because then we’ll end up somewhere else.
Devotee (2): The systematic process to approach the study…
Maharaja: Yes, means so there is a systematic study. Because the point is we start, whatever
we say vaidhi is where we start. Because if someone says, no no, you can’t just be absorbed in
vaidhi you have to cultivate raganuga. The imperative signifies vaidhi. So when you have
that quote on quote rasique in your face about how they are so much more advanced and
their method is so much more advanced because you are just stuch in vaidhi and you have to
take this up, in fact, their guru Maharaja happens to be in town and you could go and take
advantage, this is all vaidhi-bhakti, every last syllable. There was nothing, there was no
breath of raganuga in that. But they don’t understand it. It’s just their own flavor. So they
like this flavor. Somebody likes strawberry, somebody likes vanilla. So like that, but it’s the
same thing.
So you have to be very, very careful in this. It’s not a joke, it’s not a game, it’s real. But
one shouldn’t be afraid of anything other than maya. That’s why Prahlada Maharaja’s point
was, he says, everybody was afraid of Nrsimhadeva but Prahlada Maharaja wasn’t, so then
Nrsimhadeva asked, aren’t you afraid? He says, no, I am not afraid of you, you are Krsna, you
are my friend, you are my Lord. What I am afraid of is maya, that’s what I am afraid of. The
demigods aren’t afraid of maya they were afraid of Nrsimhadeva. But he is afraid of maya,
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because that can distract you. But otherwise we are not afraid of the process, but we are also
realistic where we are in the process.
Devotee (1): …Prabhu’s question, how would one know that if one is reading some book and
they are not qualified? Is it more a level of control of the mind and senses, is it more on that
level?
Maharaja: What are you gaining from reading that?
Devotee (1): Did Prabhupada say something like that, they say we’ll become purified, he said
you’ll become putrified.
Maharaja: The point is, see it’s like this, Prabhupada complained about reading the
Krsnabook and Radha Krsna pastimes and the rasa dance. Is there any complaint?
Devotee (1): No.
Maharaja: Why?
Devotee (1): Exclusivity…
Maharaja: Exclusivity ok that can be a problem. But what’s the problem of the exclusivity?
Devotee (1): Offenses to the other…, not seeing Krsna is…
Maharaja: Not seeing Krsna is complete. The point is if you like Krsna you like Krsna. So He
has a point to perform these other pastimes, then you have no problem. The gopis when
they are complaining about Krsna’s behavior. Because the point is the masculine element is
always impetuous. It must take the first step, it must be dynamic. So in doing that one can
fall prey to insensitivity. Of course, Krsna never does, but they will use that against Him. So
then they say to Krsna that you don’t actually understand how to deal properly with women.
You are uncultured when it comes to dealing with women, and they give as example and it’s
telling You, they didn’t say You as Your incarnation as Ramacandra, they just said You cut
off Suparnaka’s nose, she was a girl, she was interested in You, she approached You, and You
cut off her nose. You didn’t care about her feelings and her needs, You just cut off her nose.
So they make no distinction between Krsna and Rama. So the pastimes of Rama are Krsna
doing them. It’s not that they can’t tell, ok, they are Ramacandra pastimes, but it’s Krsna
who is doing it. Just like the mother she can tell the difference between when the kid is in
the room playing or when she is interacting or he is our in the yard playing with his friends
or he is at school, she can tell the difference. But to her it’s just her son, that’s all. It doesn’t
matter the environment, it’s just her son. So for the Vrajavasis it doesn’t matter the
environment, He can be at Dvaraka, but He is still there Krsna. That’s the point.
So they are making a distinction that this is this Krsna and then there is that Krsna. We
only like this Krsna. What kind of mother is that? I only like it interacting with my son at
home when he is personally interacting. But when he is interacting let’s say with his
brothers and sisters or he is out in the yard playing with his friends or he is at school, I don’t
actually like it, I don’t want to hear about it. Someone comes home, oh, did you hear what
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your son and my son did at school? Oh, I am not interested, I only listen to when my son and
I are interacting. But what would you say about a mum like that? So that’s the point.
That’s why it’s the gopi-bhava club, because it’s so-called, it’s not gopi-bhava. Gopis
would be happy to read Dvaraka pastimes, because it’s still Krsna. What are they asking the
swan and Hamsaduta? What is He doing there, and He is with the other gopis there and
enjoying the girls in Mathura and they are so much more qualified and sophisticated, they
know all these different fine feminine arts, and the opulence and all that, while they are just
simply village girls. So they understand naturally He will be more attracted, but at the same
time, we can’t stop thinking about Him.
Devotee (2): Learned Vaisnavas have even failed to observe Prabhupada’s boldness in this
particular aspect when he is saying that even in the maha-mantra the Rama could be
understood as Balarama or Ramacandra.
Maharaja: Yes. They say it’s lower but they don’t understand the broadness, because it’s
Rama. Prabhupada says it’s the highest pleasure, but at the same time, it includes everything
else, because the point is, let us take this Hare Krsna. Now this Hare Krsna is Radha and
Krsna, where are they going to perform their pastimes? In this cloud with a big om sign like
the Hindus say, or in Vraja? And so who is Vraja? Balarama. So the point is Radha and
Krsna their pastimes, their name, form, qualities, pastimes, paraphernalia, associates, that
includes Balarama. Mother Yasoda is an expansion from the cit-potency, mother Yasoda, the
cowherd boys, the servants, they are coming from the cit-potency. The cows, the animals,
the grass, everything, that’s coming from the sandhini. And the gopis, meaning the fiances
of Krsna they are coming from the hladini-sakti. So where else are you going to? So to say
that it’s not this means you are not understanding.
Devotee (2): So this is the broadness of Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s philosophy, because in
seeing everything now He can point out particular.
Maharaja: The point is we can see completely from the top levels of Vraja-bhakti all the way
down to the mud in the Garbhodaka Ocean. I mean that’s the two ends of Krsna says there
is one path, He says everybody is following My path, we can see the whole path, others only
see part of the path. That’s the difference. But we can see the whole path. So we can talk
about anything on the path. We have no problem talking about anything.
Narada Muni is a worshiper of Krsna in the mood of awe and reference and he can
happily talk about Radha and Krsna. Bhismadeva he is also a worshiper in awe and
reference, he is a Vaikuntha devotee, but he is talking about the super-excellent love of the
gopis while he is on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra on the bed of arrows, that’s what he is
talking about. So the point is everybody and everyone talks about the gopis. But at the same
time, to talk about them exclusively and not appreciate the other aspects means you are
seeing Krsna as dual, not non-dual. Krsna is non-dual, therefore everything about Him is
non-different. But the perspective of where you see the non-dual, that’s what makes the
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difference in rasa in the bhava. So one is seeing Krsna’s pastimes of creation of the material
world, but you still it’s Krsna who is doing that.
That’s why Prabhupada has no problem that Nrsimhadeva and Visnu have a peacock
feather, because it’s Krsna. That’s how we see it. But the so-called rasiques get bent out of
shape because only Krsna wears a peacock feather. That’s nonsense. Cows wear peacock
feather, every picture you see of a cow dressed up in any of the paintings they got peacock
feathers on in any of the traditional. You look at the in any of the pictures of our main
deities, Govinda, Gopinatha, Madana-mohana, look at what’s on Radharani’s head. Most of
the time she is wearing peacock feathers. So this whole rasique, only He wears a
peacock…it’s like, give us a break here. That’s what makes the difference? Is the peacock
feather, that’s the whole thing? That’s like pretty simplistic. It’s like you are going to say that
if a girl puts on a garment from here boyfriend that now she thinks she is the boy? Or it
makes her remember the boy more? This is really lack of rasiqueness. This is mechanistic
vaidhi-sadhana in the realm of knowledge. This is mechanistic sambandha-jnana. It’s really
mistake.
Devotee (2): Even mundane scientists have understood that in order to understand the
interaction of material energy one has to approach through a network of rules…these
energies.
Maharaja: Yes, a network of rules. Yes, there must be, because it’s laws of God, because
relationship means rules. Because you have two opposing elements, how they are going to
relate to each other? You have God and then you have creation, they are two completely
different entities. At the same time, they are non-different. So what’s non-different that’s
where they interact. What creates flavor is where they are different. In other words, what’s
the same creates compatibility, but where they are different creates taste. So that’s why in
the modern culture there is no taste, because everything is the same. That’s the problem.
Does that answer your question or we get too far off…did we address your Nimkarkaness
there or something? Oh no, yours was the gopi-bhavaness. So the point is it’s not a matter of
what they are reading, the point is Prabhupada’s Krsnabook includes all the other nine
cantos, therefore it’s complete. So it will address those points that will distract you from the
actual point that’s being made. But it’s not that it doesn’t have all the detail. But because of
the presentation you catch the mood, you don’t catch on anything that would create lust.
But if you read the literatures of the acaryas without their commentaries and here is that
you read the verse and go into the commentary, Prabhupada has woven it in so smoothly
that you don’t see the difference, it reads so pleasantly that you may not catch that, you may
miss the difference. Because no one is reading these works of the acaryas into Radha Krsna
pastimes with commentaries. Or if they are commentaries they are commentaries by some
no one in our line.
So the difficulty comes is then in reading that, what is to make sure that you are seeing
it from the proper standard? Means if you are on that standard, no problem, read ahead. But
if you are not, then you have to be very, very careful. So that’s why even you approach the
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previous acaryas you have to approach them through your acarya, but that’s not necessarily
the understanding. Otherwise many who approach the previous acaryas then they’ll find
faults in Prabhupada. Someone who is like that they will never get the blessings of Srila
Rupa Goswami, they’ll never become part of the Vraja scene, because the mentality is
wrong. Vraja is a mentality. You have the wrong mentality you don’t get into Vraja. No
question.
So the point is if one is so schooled in Prabhupada’s view then if one reads that then
he’ll see it in connection with that. And so all what Prabhupada has given will be there to
back that up. So there will be no problem. But if you approach it directly then what’s the
meaning? Who are we to approach?
Devotee (1): So after many years of reading Prabhupada’s books then one…
Maharaja: After many years it’s there, and Prabhupada says what books to read and why.
The point is when you are so absorbed in Krsnabook that that’s all that’s going in your mind
then other technical books of the acaryas that give more detail it just fills out what’s already
there. It’s not that I read Prabhupada’s Krsnabook, yeah, but then when I read then it stands
out of my mind. Yes, it does you read it today it’s big, you talk to your friends they haven’t
heard this pastime or this detail, it’s big, big talk and then two weeks later, then what?
The gopis it doesn’t matter what they are doing they are thinking of Krsna. They are
eating, they are taking their bath, they are feeding their babies, they are serving their
husbands, all they are thinking about is Krsna. Then these further details have meaning on
that level that they can offer. You can read it, find out more, but you are increasing basically
your sambandha-jnana. It will give some taste, yes. But the amount of taste it will give
compared to what it will give someone who has written it are two different things. So there
is a difference.
Devotee (1): That inspired you to do more service then.
Maharaja: Sorry?
Devotee (1): If it inspires you to do more service…
Maharaja: If it inspires you to do more service, great, but the point is why would it only be
study of that, why is it only that will elevate you? No, you noticed it, but you also notice
Krsnabook.
Devotee (1): For us I mean, not for them, not if it’s improperly done.
Maharaja: No, if it’s properly done according to the direction of the acarya then it works.
But that’s the working principle. You can’t get something without going through the
acaryas, it won’t work, Krsna doesn’t work like that. The sahajiyas are rolling on the ground
with the same pastimes, but still they don’t know who Krsna is. They’ll never know. Because
Krsna it’s not because I read the book, therefore I am advanced, unless you read this you
won’t be advanced. No, it’s by following the order of the guru that’s what makes you
advanced. Otherwise you say if I read this book that’s what will make you advanced, then I
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am saying the ritual itself is the dynamic principle. That’s what the karma-kandis say, that’s
what the smartas say. No. We say you have to read these books, because the acaryas said. So
it’s following the order of the acarya that makes it dynamic, not because I read the book.
Otherwise there is tons of karmi academics who have read Vedic literatures and it made
no difference in their devotional understanding, zero. So it’s not the activity. It’s the
activity being done under the order of guru. In other words, if the cit-potency is not there,
nothing is happening. Just because you read, you think because I read it therefore it has to
happen. That’s what Jaimini says. I perform the ritual I get the result, Krsna has got to give
it to me, because it’s all about me, no. That’s the reason that we learn the six systems, then
you can define properly. Because otherwise here Devidasa can’t see the difference, and he is
a scholar, he is a Nyayist, he teaches, it’s not just he does in his hobby, he teaches. So he is
logical, he knows the thing, he is good at it, they are respected, they are a respected family,
that’s why they are annoyed that their father is engaged in these unrespectable Vaisnava
activities. (end of lecture) (end)
March 4, 2010
Maharaja:
Lahiri Mahasaya: Son, I have thought about these things for many days. Please think
about this carefully. There are two classes of human beings: 1. those who are interested in
this material world, the here and now and 2. those who are interested in the highest goal of
life. The materialists are interested only in material happiness, material fame, and material
exalted status.
Human beings who are interested in the highest goal of life are divided into three
classes: 1. the devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, 2. those who are attached to
impersonal speculation, and 3. those who desire mystic powers.
So you noticed the element here that is the uniqueness in the human is the aspect of
elevation. All the living entities are trying to elevate themselves. But it’s just a matter of
how far they are trying to elevate. So we see here the elevation in the first group, those
interested in the here and now, material happiness, fame, and exalted status. But in each
one of them you have to rise above the position you are in. To be famous you have to be
above others to where you are are noticed. Happiness means you have to be above just the
ordinary. It has to be something special, unique. And exalted status then is definitely
accepted that you are in a special position. And then from that then because you are in that
special position then you are famous, and then from that supposedly you are happy.
So then those who are interested in the highest goal which means you are going beyond
this, the more esoteric. Then there are those who are devotees of the Lord, those who are
interested in the impersonal Brahman, or those who are interested in the mystic powers.
Because these will be the highest positions that you can attain within the universe. All these
positions will place you basically in Brahma-loka or beyond. So these verses te brahma loke
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tu para anta kale, so that one is coming to the position of Brahma-loka. So this can be either
defined as Vaikuntha. Brahma-loka is the Brahman being transcendental, so the planets of
transcendence, so Vaikuntha. Or it can be in Brahma-loka just meaning the place of
Brahman, so the impersonalist. Or Brahma-loka can be where Lord Brahma stays, because
that’s where all the yogis go.
Remember, Durvasa Muni after that pastime with Ambarisa Maharaja and his tour
around the universe accompanied by Sudarsana-cakra then afterwards he went back to
Brahma-loka because that’s generally where he would stay, because the great yogis stay on
Brahma-loka.
Those who desire mystic powers are eager to attain the results offered by the karma-
kanda section of the Vedas. By performing these karma-kanda activities they attain
extraordinary powers. By performing yajnas and yoga one can attain these powers. They
think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is obliged to give them the results of their
karma-kanda activities.
That’s the aspect of karma-kanda, I have done the work I deserve it. To go to mangala-
aratika every day, I chant my rounds, I follow the regulative principles, why are these things
happening to me? Someone thinks that, what is that from? That’s from the contamination
of karma-kanda. Because you think I have done the work therefore I deserve the result. My
work makes the result. That’s the point that Jaimini is making, you do the work, it’s by the
power of your work and the chanting of the mantra that that adjust the material energy,
that’s the mechanics, your work with the mantra adjusts the material energy, it transforms
into the result that you deserve. It’s not that God actually has something to do with it. God
is just there to arrange things. But the actual the dynamic aspect is you’re performing the
activity. So they are not even looking at these higher causes, the original cause, or the
formal cause. Even if they accept them, but to them that’s not the central feature. The
central feature is the operative cause, they did the work. Therefore then the formal and
ultimate cause will make the arrangement that the material cause is then manifest before
them that they can see it and enjoy it. But the operative cause becomes the main feature.
And so this will be seen also your pragmatists, they take this as the defining feature. I
did the work in a practical way that’s why I got the result. Not that the work that I do is only
practical if I do it according to the direction of God given in the methodology of the formal
cause. If the formal cause isn’t there, I can’t do an activity other than the formal cause and
actually have it work.
Can I just put cement on the wall this way and then stick a brick here? No, because it’s
not there in the formal cause. There is a blueprint of how the universe works. That’s called
the laws of nature. So you can’t do anything outside of that in the operative, and you won’t
get any results that’s not there in the formal cause. So the operative cause and the material
cause are based on what the formal cause is. And that formal cause is in service to the
original cause or the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
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So this is the problem with the karma-kanda, they don’t take these other as the higher
principle. They are subtler, yes, but their point is their goal is the gross, the observable.
That’s what they are looking for. And so they feel I did the work in the gross matter, I will
get the result in the gross matter.
Devotee (1): This birth would be taken as or considered material, or atheistic or
Brahmavada?
Maharaja: Specific here karma will be, I mean they are all atheistic, but it would be in this
case it’s karma. It’s not the Brahmavada, it’s karma, not jnana. Because in here these schools,
because the interesting thing about is you can accept God and it is still technically atheistic.
Means you are accepting God, but it’s how do you accept God? In other words, God is non-
dual, and if you create duality then technically that’s atheistic, because it’s against theism.
So theism it doesn’t mean you don’t accept that there is God, there is a supreme person, you
don’t accept Him for what He is.
Devotee (1): And you were explaining once that deifying God.
Maharaja: Yes, deifying or the supreme person, the supreme controller and all that but He
has no form. So all these are atheistic views because they are against actual fact. So most of
your Vedic schools accept that there is a supreme person. Four out of six it’s very obvious,
there is that supreme…, well, three out of six, it’s definite. And then other schools they can
accept or not, but even if He is there, He is just doing the work to give you the results of
your activities. Or He is doing the work, but He is only doing the work because you are not
Brahman realized. When you are Brahman realized He doesn’t have to do the work any
more. But in all schools the point is you have no relationship with God. So that’s the
weakness. He is there but you don’t have a relationship.
Devotee (2): Does this mentality of expecting a result also to the activities of let’s say we
perform sadhana-bhakti, and on this then we somehow expect something happen, because
that’s the natural thing, and Srila Prabhupada also said to somebody in some conversation
that we should have a result because somehow or another how we will be able to just keep on
going. This is also influenced by this karma mentality?
Maharaja: No. Karma means in this case you are looking at two aspects of it. One is fruitive
mentality, I did the work, the result is mine. In other words, I did the work, I am not
necessarily the cause of the result, but the result is mine. What we are saying here is another
subtle aspect, I have done the work and because I did the work that produced the result. In
other words, I did the work and the result is mine, it’s still able to be connected to Krsna
consciousness. Because this result is mine, but I can give the result to Krsna. But the other
one, I did the work that’s why the result came, then you squarely putting yourself as the
supreme controller. That would be harder, I mean of course you can give the result to the
Lord, but then you have a double problem with the karma instead of a single. You are
thinking that you are the cause of the work and the result is yours. You are the cause of the
result and the result is yours. But in the one when we deal with sakama-karma-yoga that you
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are only dealing one. Because you perform the result, you depend upon the Lord for the
result, the result came, but it’s your result. Then you give that result to Krsna or connect it
to Krsna. But the other one is you are thinking you are actually the cause of the result.
Devotee (2): So a natural question comes then should we be attached to because certainly
somehow or another devotional service means also we have to do certain things and we can
take it as a kind of a work if it is not and it’s not by our own inspiration we do that, we have
to get the right information from the higher source. When we somehow expect some things,
just in order to keep on going we have to get some result. So this effect of performing our
sadhana why should we actually endeavor if Krsna is actually the yajna-pati or whatever, He
is the giver of the result.
Maharaja: So only if you are the yajna-pati you’ll work?
Devotee (2): No, because I think that we are not the doer.
Devotee (1): Impersonal feelings also enter into the inspiration.
Maharaja: That’s there, but do we see mechanics what’s happening here? In other words, he
is taking the aspects of sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana, and the prayojana is his main
focus, so he is working on a goal-oriented activity. So within his mind he’ll be inspired to do
activities based on a goal-orientation. But in that that’s the attachment, so the inspiration
will come from the identity, the identity is I am the doer, that’s the weakness in the point.
It’s because of identifying that I am the doer of the activity, that’s why because I am the doer
I am the cause of the result. But being the cause of the result and being goal-oriented are
two different things. They deal with the goal, yes, that’s a common word, but I can also say
there is a goal in football, there is also a goal in hockey it’s a little smaller, so does that mean
the people in hockey don’t have the vision of those in soccer because the goal in soccer is
bigger. But then if you look at it, the AFL goals, the Australian football league, those are
huge, those are monstrous goals, it’s like 30 feet, 40 feet apart, and they are about 30, 40 feet
high, they have the greatest goals. So the Aussies they have really got it down.
It’s two different things. That you are goal-oriented, great, but are you actually the cause
of the result because of your work? That’s the confusing here. You are mixing that if I am
not looking at a goal, so therefore I am judging my work against a result that it’s getting.
That’s two different things. But we are not actually the cause of that result coming. That’s a
separate topic. So because you are mixing these two simply because there is the work goal
that’s common to both, that’s where the mistake is being made.
Devotee (1): Will it be wrong to expect some feelings of love in reciprocation?
Maharaja: That’s another topic. In other words, within when you are dealing with the
sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana it covers all these, but we have to be able to discern
the difference between them. One is the emotional aspect, one is the thing is my work
connected with the result, and the third is who is the cause of that result, so they are three
different topics, though the same process.
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It’s like you can bang with a hammer bang a nail into a piece of wood, so that’s one
thing. But then out of consideration of the nail and the kind of wood and what it is you are
trying to do, so therefore how far into the wood do you bang it, what is the method, so
depending upon that there is other aspects.
It’s like this, you are 1/10000 the tip of the hair. Now if there anything that you know of,
let’s say even it’s cotton candy, that’s 10000 times bigger than you, could you push it around
with ease?
Devotee (2): I don’t think so.
Maharaja: You don’t think so. So then what just moved your arm up to your mouth? You did
that or you desired to do that, you are part of the process, but it was actually carried out by
the modes of nature?
Devotee (2): As far as I remember in the Fourteenth Chapter I have difficulty to
understand that Lord Krsna says that we are karta.
Maharaja: You are doer, but you are doer in the way of that you want things to happen. Just
like in a house, we have a house. In this house there is parents and also there is a child. The
child is hungry, what happens?
Devotee (2): The parents supply food.
Maharaja: Right, so who is the karta here?
Devotee (2): The parents.
Maharaja: The parents, but you are trying to say the child is the karta because he desired the
food.
Devotee (2): So ultimately it comes to our independence and the doing things is just the
desiring.
Maharaja: That’s right, that’s the bottom line. So Krsna consciousness means changing your
desire. That’s all it is. We make it into this big huge mechanistic kind of thing, but all it is is
changing the desire, that’s all you are doing. Accepting Krsna, rejecting maya, that’s all it is,
Krsna consciousness is that simple. We make it into this big complicated thing, therefore
the Vedic literatures cover everything.
The Vedas they mention you pick your nose, you wash your hand. Because we will get
into all these different things. So the Vedas cover it and show how to connect it to Krsna.
So because your consideration is the sastras maintain purity and they say you wash your
hand after picking your nose, you wash your hand. Not because in third grade they should
you some little video and this and that, and all the little microbes and the anti-bodies
attacking your body, running around in their fire engines and all this and that, that’s why
you do it. Ok, if you do it like that, nice, it means you are a little bit more intelligent. But it’s
still not God conscious. But you are doing it because the sastras say, that’s God conscious.
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So the point is we make it complicated, but actually it’s very simple. We want to do
something in connection to Krsna or we don’t. It’s like that. It’s not something more or less.
So the point is you have to see that the activity that I am doing now is actually in line with
the result, but that’s based on what is the field of activities. You say I am doing the activity,
but what’s the field of activities, who has provided that, you provided that?
So that’s the whole thing, you say you have a hammer, a nail, a piece of wood, did you
supply those? Ok, you went down to the hardware store and bought them, great. Where did
the hardware store get them? Eventually it goes back to Krsna’s nature. So the field of
activities that you have a thing that you can move the hammer and it hits the nail and the
nail goes into the wood. Then we can be thinking, oh, this is Newton’s third law, but
Newton’s third law was there before Newton. Apples were falling on people’s heads before
Newton was stupid enough to sit under an ample tree when the apples are ripe and have one
fall on his head. If he was so smart who would sit under an ample tree? It’s just you don’t sit
under ample trees when they are full of fruits. If you are an adult you sit away from the tree.
If you are a kid you sit in the tree. You don’t sit there waiting for one to drop on your head.
So the point is that these laws are there. The devotee understanding the laws from
sastra and from practical observation puts these together, then he sees the field of activities,
what activities can be done for Krsna, he performs those activities, but those activities have
already been defined by Krsna, no by us. And then that result comes because it’s Krsna’s
process. So we have taken part in Krsna’s process. We do that understanding Krsna, pleasing
Krsna, that’s called Krsna consciousness. We do the same activity not seeing Krsna in it,
that’s called illusion, that’s called maya.
So that’s what we are talking about. So understanding that was a goal, but besides that
who are you and what is the field that you can get that goal? So if you are actually going to
be successful materially you have to understand all three aspects, not one. You are looking at
the goal, ok, that’s one way of inspiring people, but it’s still without full knowledge. Better
one acts with knowledge than just with inspiration. Inspiration is important, but inspiration
with knowledge will give a better result than just inspiration. Of course, just inspiration is
better than no inspiration, because then you do nothing.
So it’s two different topics. So what we are talking about here is the karma-kandi
following from Jaimini thinks that I did the activity that’s why the result comes. No, it’s
there is a process already established by God, I take part in it, therefore the result is comin.
But it’s God’s process, it’s God’s elements, it’s God’s result. We recognize that we are God
conscious, we don’t recognize then that’s illusion.
So that’s why you can practice the aspect of naiskarmya that the result is not for me and
still be goal-oriented, because the goal is for Krsna. That’s what’s so perfect about God’s
system, all levels of activity are all simultaneously able to be accomplished in one action.
They are not separate things. It’s not a separate view. It’s a matter of what you are
emphasizing at the time. So here because of this description we are emphasizing the karma
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aspect, the result orientation. But in other points then it will come up about the field of
activity, who you are, or about inspiration, or about the activity itself.
If you are not conscious, you are doing the activity but if you are not conscious how will
you get the result? Because you don’t know if the activity you are performing is actually
properly in connection with the field. It’s the field of activities that its operation is giving
the result. But if you are not properly in tune with the field of activities in the present you
may miss something and the field of activities won’t respond to your so-called operation.
Because you didn’t actually operate it properly.
So the point is this philosophy is the most practical of practical. It has all those things in
it. But in this, this particular class is then for learning how to discern the different aspects so
that you are on the right topic. So in other words, goal orientation is a very good thing
because the goal is for Krsna. So that means we want to do the proper activity. To do the
proper activity you have to know who you are in the field of activity. And it has to be
something according to your nature that’s why you are inspired. You are doing an activity
you are not inspired because it’s not according to your nature. So if it’s a spiritual activity
you are not inspired to chant your rounds, because you don’t identify yourself as a devotee.
You identify as a devotee then it is something you are inspired to do. Or if a brahmana is
trying to do a ksatriya activity, a ksatriya trying to do a sudra activity, it won’t work because
the inspiration won’t come, even though the field of activity is there, because it’s not
according to nature, so your identity is not correct. You may understand the field, but you
have to understand who you are. So when you understand the field and who you are then
there is inspiration. Then you can in an inspired way perform the activity being aware of
the field, conscious of the field, so therefore then you get the result. But then in your
inspiration why would you work to get a result unless there is an attachment to the result.
That attachment can either be for you or for a higher purpose.
So these are the considerations when you are dealing. This is sambandha, abhidheya,
prayojana. The ability to see that is what makes the devotees so expert both materially and
spiritually. It’s due to the lack of this that one is not very expert. And the karmis may be
aware of this but not on the spiritual platform, only on the material. The people who are
actually expert in this world somehow or another are connecting with this system, it’s God’s
system, it’s not their system. The system doesn’t belong to the various self-help gurus that
are there in the world. It’s God’s system, they are just observing it. Apples fall, Newton
observed it, therefore now it’s his. So it doesn’t exactly work like that, but it’s popular. So
they are because of observing the nature and seeing the patterns therefore they become
expert at it, because they actually follow God’s laws. So anybody who is successful in this
world it’s because they are following God’s laws. That’s it. So the point is understanding
what is God’s laws and therefore what is the proper way to apply them, that’s the real
success training. So that’s what we are trying to get at.
So he is pointing out here they are doing this, they understand this, but they are making
this mistake. That’s why it keeps them only at this level, that’s why yoga is considered
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karma. Because you tie yourself up like a pretzel, or stop your breathing, and they think
because I have done that that’s why I am getting result. That’s the difference. While the
jnani doesn’t make that mistake, because he thinks everything is illusion, so activities are
illusion so I don’t do activities. So he doesn’t have a problem with because I did the action I
got the result. But he still has the same problem that he thinks he is God. So one is thinking
I am God because I do the things, and the other is thinking I am God because I don’t do the
things. But in either case they both have the same difficulty.
So you understand the difference here? Your point is valid but it was a different topic. It
is valid if you are discussing a different topic, then you discuss that line and see that how
that connects to Krsna. So in other words, that one is goal-oriented doesn’t negate that one
is following naiskarmya, you are not interested in the results, it’s non-fruitive. Or practicing
that doesn’t need the idea that I am the doer. So when you say, yes, you can do this and that,
don’t be mental, get out there and just, like that, that’s a discussion about your identity. And
it doesn’t mean that you are the cause or the result, it means you by performing the action
according to the laws of nature then nature will provide the result. But you have to do
something, you are the catalyst. Otherwise pradhana is just sitting there, and why does it
move? Because the living entities enter it. But they enter it with time and false ego. So time
is actually doing the work. But because of false ego we think we are time. So it goes back a
long way. That’s why it says so it’s time immemorial, we have had this kind of
misunderstanding for a long time. So we are just habituated to it. So we don’t see these
differences. Because we don’t to see ourself as the controller and enjoyer. So anything that
will support that we immediately just accept without actually thinking about it.
The philosophers will dissect things so much, I think it was Hume. So Hume has this
idea, well, if God is actually important then He is all-merciful why are people born in
different situations, the facilities aren’t equal? If He is so organized why does rain fall on the
stones or on the ocean where it doesn’t need it, but in the desert it doesn’t fall? Why is all
these things going on if God is so powerful? Why does He need laws, He would just do
things? He comes up with all these kind of things. But he is not going that if God is so
imperfect that would mean then, if He is there the creation is imperfect, that means His
brain is imperfect. So that means His perspective of this whole thing is imperfect. But that
part they don’t do because what it does by his arguments makes him God and God not God
or irrevelant as God. So therefore it becomes popular. Now why would it bewilder people?
People who are theists why would it bewilder them? Because they actually want to be God.
So they have already said He is the supreme controller and this and that, but He is
impersonal. And so that stands and people are God fearing up to guys like him come along,
him and Kant, all these wallas. So they come along and throw out these doubts, these
rationalistic kind of things. And why do they create the doubt? They are stupid, they are not
rational, though they consider themselves rationalists. That’s the thing, we are not
sentimentalists we are rationalists, but they very much have faith in their intelligence, in
their mind. Whatever they accept is truth. What has that got to do with rational? But
because it places yourself as God therefore it’s popular. Anything that proves you are God,
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you are in control, you are the enjoyer, then immediately bang, people they’ll line up. So
that’s why it’s there, but otherwise not.
So that’s why the devotee has to be able to discern these points, discern all these
elements, that it is His potency, for Him it’s not a matter of effort, for Him the laws of
nature are just His natural manifestation, they are non-different than Him. Because He is
everything, so everything works, it’s Him.
Devotee (1): Maybe the mentality of this materialistic philosopher may change if they
accept that they fell from the heavenly planets…
Maharaja: Well that’s as long as they accept rebirth. Most of these guys, Western
philosophers don’t go beyond one birth, so they are even more, they are very, very meager in
their, intelligent, but misguided. They are very unknowledgeable. In other words, they do a
lot of intellectualization on very minimal knowledge. Like they have the spiritual knowledge
of like a nursery school or something, but they do professorship intellectualization on it.
Like you bring out a bunch of little colored blocks and stars and circles and give it to a
professor, and then he’ll come up with some big theory and write a 300 page thesis on it, but
it’s still the same kid will come up and take it and go like this and put it together and then
it’s done. But the philosopher has his whole reason on how that happens, why would the kid
pick up the round one and put it in the round whole, all that kind of stuff. So that’s what
they have done. But the amound of understanding, they don’t know karma. As soon as they
understand karma, then automatically all the problem that the Church has and these
rationalists have go away. It’s just gone, that one thing it makes it go away.
Devotee (1): They only thing that they miss the karma is connected to mentality of the
incarnation.
Maharaja: That’s the problem, it’s concerned with the soul being eternal and rebirth. So if
they don’t accept that then they can’t understand these points. So it would be trying to
understand mathematics without numbers. It’s like that simple, or language without words
or some medium. It’s insane. But they are intelligent.
So it’s just like there is a story on this, because one may doubt this. One day there was
this guy, he was driving down the road, and just next to the road there was this big insane
asylum. As he was driving then he got a flat tire just outside this insane asylum. So he pulled
his car over to the side, jacks up the car, he take off the hubcap, he puts it on the road, takes
off the locknuts, the bolts that hold on the wheel, puts them in the hubcap, so you don’t lose
them and all that. And while this is all going on the fence was there of the insane asylum,
one guy from inside the insane asylum sitting there leaning on the fance watching him. And
then after he put the locknuts and hubcap the inmate from the insane asylum says, if you
leave the hubcap on the road like that then if a car comes along they may hit the hubcap
and then all your locknuts are gone, and then you have to go find them, so you should push
that under the car, keep it under the car while you do your work. And then the guy who is
changing the tire looks up at him and says, how are you able to understand this, you are
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from the insane asylum, you are crazy? And the guy looked at him and says, I am in here for
being crazy, not stupid.
Devotee (1): …
Maharaja: Yes, of course, that’s another thing.
Devotee (1): And then the car which in that road never, he thought…actually he didn’t pay
attention, and the car came and the bolts were flying over, he never found, and then he was
completely frustrated…what I am going to do now? He started to call everybody to assist…
Sir, you take one nut from the other three wheels and just put it in. I think it will solve the
problem…
Maharaja: So, we are not saying they are stupid, but we are just saying they are uninformed.
That’s their problem. So they are doing a lot with very little, but the problem is it’s not
enough, so they can’t answer their questions.
So the yogis and karma-kandis, they think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is
obliged to give them the results of their karma-kanda activities.
The next group is they who are attached to impersonal speculation. By cultivating
impersonal knowledge such persons strive to become the Supreme. Some of them say the
Supreme Personality of Godhead exists, and others of them say He does not exist. Some of
them say the Supreme Personality of Godhead is merely an imagination and that by
worshipping this imaginary God one gradually attains impersonal knowledge. Others among
them say that one must use the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as a tool to
attain impersonal knowledge. Then when one attains impersonal knowledge, the tool of
worship should be thrown away. According to them, when one attains the result of
worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that worship becomes transformed into
impersonal knowledge. In their opinion neither the Supreme Personality of Godhead nor
the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are eternal.
So in there there is a problem, if in the impersonal the difficulty with this whole
impersonal process is that it’s based on illusion, that though they are claiming to be
impersonalists they are trying to rise to this impersonal platform, they are doing through in
their definition worship of the temporary, the illusory. So how would worship of illusion
give transcendence? And why are they differentiating between God illusion and dog
illusion? Of course, some don’t. Ramakrsna didn’t. So what is the point, if it’s all illusion
then why by worshiping illusion you’ll get out of illusion? Because if it’s illusion it can’t
actually do anything for you. But if it’s a person that can bless you with elevation that means
then there is not illusion. So their whole basis of their philosophy doesn’t have much
standing.
So then in this some will consistently worship all the way through until they come to
the impersonal platform. Others will go up to a point where they feel they have come to
some understanding and then reject the worship. Your Mayavadis will reject the worship,
the other schools of Vedic thought they won’t reject, they will continue the same process all
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the way through. But in either case they are trying to get to the Brahman platform. They
know by worshiping the Supreme Lord and they accept He is a person and He is eternally a
person. But they are not interested in Him, they are interested in Brahman. So therefore
they worship Him to come to that Brahman platform.
So this is just like the yogis, they will meditate on the Supreme Personality of Godhead
knowing He is a person, but at the end just want to merge into Him. So at some point the
line become blurred and they don’t actually, they are not using their intelligence. So only
the Vaisnavas use their intelligence completely. So all the way from the beginning to the
end it’s consistent. While all these other schools are consistent up to a point, then the point
where they stop, since they are trying to make that the conclusion, that’s where it become
inconsistent. Because the point is ultimately you have to come to the Supreme Lord, and if
you see everything in connection with Him there is consistency. So only the devotees can
actually have a consistent philosophy. No one else does. But they start in a particular way,
present it in a particular way, it looks intelligent, but the point is you have to take whatever
they present and take it back into what is actually the standard. You can’t don’t play their
game that they create the standard. No. God creates the standard, therefore you have to
observe everything according to God’s definition.
So that’s defined in the Upanisads as the nature of God, the nature of the jiva, the
nature of the material energy, the nature of your process of elevation, and relationship with
Godhead once you have elevated yourself. You put it into that you find the discussion ends
very quickly, because basically they have no knowledge of these. They may have a very
elaborate process, their goal is some impersonal thing, so there is not much talk about there,
you can fit that all into one paragraph. The process may be very big, but if you actually ask
who is God, who they are, and what’s the material nature, then that also is one paragraph,
done. Any philosophy or religion in the world basically except for their process you can fit it
on one page, because they don’t have anything to say.
Then it becomes very easy to deal with. They don’t want to deal with there, because
they want to show their process is superior to another process. But your process is based
upon sambandha, upon your identification of the field. How will your process work if you
don’t know what your field is?
Devotee (3): Since everything is Brahman so we are already in Brahman what do they mean
saying that they want to reach Brahman?
Maharaja: That’s their point, that’s what shows that they are not actually understanding
Brahman, because real Brahmavadis it’s all Brahman. So it’s not that you have to obtain it,
you are already there, it’s just you have to recognize it. While others it’s a process you are
trying to obtain. Because the question is they are separating the material energy from
Brahman. So they are saying material energy is one thing, Brahman in another thing. But
it’s actually material consciousness is one thing and Brahman understanding is another. But
everything is Brahman. Means it’s a journey of consciousness, not of location. So depending
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upon how well they understand this, then to that degree they are successful. But you never
really hear of anybody being successful on these paths.
Devotee (1): The only one that could become successful is if he or she or it can manifest the
universal form? Because they read Bhagavad-gita, too.
Maharaja: Means technically the jiva doesn’t have to manifest the universal form, because
Arjuna became realized without manifesting, but Krsna manifested.
Devotee (1): That’s…the difference is that.
Maharaja: Yes, manifesting or not manifesting. But now the question goes back to your
political correct statement of he, she, or it, but then the soul then by definition on the
spiritual platform then if you define the soul as he what are you meaning?
Devotee (1): Only in the svarupa, I meant to say as a spiritual spark is it.
Maharaja: But it still is, an it would mean that it’s not masculine or feminine.
Devotee (1): Not yet until it gets the svarupa.
Maharaja: No, but he is still feminine in definition of energy being dependent on energetic.
But he is he because he thinks he is God. So therefore it is out, and he is referring to a lesser
standard of consciousness, so then she would be the correct. So therefore it’s easier to use
the third person instead of the second. The problem of political correctness because of the
insistence on using this second, what do you call it? Voice or person.
Devotee (4): Third person singular…you use third person plural.
Maharaja: Yes, means you use the plural. Or you say, one should do like this. Because if you
do that, it will sound archaic, but it works so perfectly, and it’s so perfectly politically
correct, while the other is so difficult. It says political correct people generally pride
themselves in being practical and rational and intelligent, then it’s so much more superior to
use this third person, would that be third person plural to say one, one should do like this?
Devotee (4): It’s not plural.
Maharaja: It’s not a plural, but it’s a different approach. In old literatures they would use this
kind of more poetic approach and get the work done, plus it sounds nice.
Devotee (1): Particularly if everything is one…
Maharaja: I see, this is dyed in the wool of impersonalism.
So in other words, the second group is attached to the impersonal. So it’s not that they
are saying we are becoming unattached, no, they are still attached, but they are attached to
the impersonal. They are attached to renunciation. They are attached to avoiding emotion.
While the other materialists, means these other four, they are attached to results, they are
attached to their feelings and what they can do.
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The third class of human beings who are interested in the highest goal of life is the
devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In deed, the devotees are the true seekers
of the highest goal of life. In the opinion of the devotees there is one Supreme Personality of
Godhead, who has neither beginning nor end. Employing His potencies, He manifests the
individual spirit souls and the material world. The individual spirit souls are all His servants.
Eternal service to the Lord is the soul’s eternal duty and eternal nature. On his own power,
the individual soul is not able to do anything. By performing materialistic activities (karma)
the individual soul cannot attain any result that is eternal. However, by obeying and serving
the Supreme Personality of Godhead the individual soul can, by the Lord’s mercy, attain the
fulfillment of all his desires.
All his desires, because spiritually he wants to become situated and materially he is
looking for some result, so by performing the activity it being Krsna conscious you are
getting the spiritual result and getting the material result. So this idea of being practical and
not being God conscious means you are only getting a material result. And generally
speaking most who are practical much of the time what they go after they have to go by the
experience of others and their own endeavor, so they don’t actually have a background of
what are the eternal laws of God. So those who accept the scriptures then have that
foundation, here is the nature of the world, so therefore this is the process that you use. So
you have taken the eternal nature of the world and by observation and practice and others’,
then you can apply it, but you have the eternal principles that it’s based on. So the devotee
then accordingly will get a good material result, because they are following these laws. But
because they do it for Krsna, then they get the devotional result also. While the materialist
if he is following the Vedas then he’ll get a good material result, because he is pious. But the
non-devotees or those who don’t follow the Vedas then they may get, they may not get. You
find the followers of the Vedas everybody has a happy basically family life and has some
facility and this and that. Those who don’t follow the Vedas it’s very rare somebody has it.
So being practical means basing it on the Vedas. But it’s not sentimental we are doing it
just because of the Vedas, because it works. And that’s not just enough that it works, you are
doing it because it pleases Krsna. So then the devotee gets all spheres. Otherwise then the
practical materialist and the sentimentalist they are always going to be fighting. But actually
both of them are correct on one point, but they miss the point on another. So the thing is
the devotees see both. They are able to practically apply something but on the how things
work in the universe based on God consciousness. So it’s not sentiment, means it invokes
sentiment towards the Lord, but it’s not sentiment only he works, he is working with
intelligence. That’s why it’s called buddhi-yoga. (end of lecture) (end)
March 5, 2010
Maharaja:
The third class of human beings who are interested in the highest goal of life is the
devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In deed, the devotees are the true seekers
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of the highest goal of life. In the opinion of the devotees there is one Supreme Personality of
Godhead, who has neither beginning nor end. Employing His potencies, He manifests the
individual spirit souls and the material world. The individual spirit souls are all His servants.
Eternal service to the Lord is the soul’s eternal duty and eternal nature. On his own power,
the individual soul is not able to do anything. By performing materialistic activities (karma)
the individual soul cannot attain any result that is eternal. However, by obeying and serving
the Supreme Personality of Godhead the individual soul can, by the Lord’s mercy, attain the
fulfillment of all his desires.
So this like just one paragraph then it establishes a basis for the whole philosophy. That
if this is understood, if this was the starting point of all other philosophies and religions you
wouldn’t end up with as much strange and wonderful things. So the problem comes up
because of this they don’t actually understand God’s position, they think He is either
created or there is a limit on His value, or the souls are not created by God they are created
by material energy or by illusion. They don’t see the soul as eternal servant of God, they are
trying to find some other position for him. And then we see the aspect of karma, basically
except for generally your Eastern religions everybody leaves out karma, and this then creates
a whole very difficult understanding of what’s happening. And because of that then even
their doubt on God becomes a problem. Because why are things so unjust and unequal and
why are some people happy, why are people suffering, why are people who are religious
suffering? So all these things not knowing karma then it appears that God is not very well
organized.
These are very essential points, we take them as very basic, but these very basic points
other religions and philosophies don’t even have, it’s just they don’t exist, that’s the
problem. And because of that then they come up with very, very unique ways to work it out.
Either they have to work out something, means if you are going to keep faith in God, then
He is a nice guy but not very organized. Or He is not very organized, so why do we need
Him? Or if we define God as the supreme, He doesn’t seem to be so supreme, so therefore
one becomes atheistic.
So it’s very important these aspects to understand, the nature of the soul, the nature of
God, and the relationship. Then we see, the material energy is created by God, otherwise
the impersonalists will say it’s just illusion, it’s not created by God. So all these different
aspects must be seen. And He is in control of it, not it’s in control of Him. If it’s karma, the
karma-mimamsakas they will say that I have done the karma, I get the result, God has to
supply it. The others are, He is independent, but out of His kindness He takes care of all
these things. But why is He taking care of, that they don’t explain. Why would God bother
to arrange things and create things for a bunch of living entities? Why would He do it? So
there is no relationship, so there is nothing explained. And their ultimate point is also
impersonal, no relationship. Then the Mayavadis and the Buddhists then they will say it’s all
illusion anyway, it doesn’t actually exist. So it has nothing really to do with God.
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So in all cases God is not properly connected with the creation, He is not in control of
the creation. And it’s not based on the living entities’ activities, they do good activities they
get good result, bad activities get bad result, spiritual activities spiritual result. So all these
things are left out, and then because of this then one comes up with very, very strange ideas.
The previous two classes of human beings are called: 1. karma-kandi (those who perform
material pious deeds), and 2. jnana-kandi (impersonalists). The third class is called isa-
bhakta (devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead). The karma-kandis and jnana-
kandis are proud to call themselves seekers after the highest spiritual goal. However, the
truth is that they are materialists. They are materialists because whatever pious deeds they
perform are all pushed by personal, material motives.
So we see the karma-kandis it’s obvious they are material motive, they want to perform
the activity and get observable, material benefit. The jnani is performing material activities
and expects to get the result of not having any material connection and therefore then
becoming God. Both of them are material concepts. It’s just how far along on Krsna’s path
they are going. Because Brahman understanding us farther than the heavenly planets,
therefore one will say the jnanis are higher, because they are progressing farther on the
path. But because we are dealing with a reflection, the material world is a reflection, so
there is relationships and activities and everything in the spiritual world, so then the
reflection of that means there will be activities and everything here. So the problem is it’s
material, not that it’s an activity. The problem in the material world isn’t the principle of
relationship or attachment or need or desire, these aren’t actually the problem. The problem
is they are not applied to Krsna, they are applied to the material energy.
So in this way the jnanis technically in consciousness become the lowest, because they
don’t accept form and relationships and interactions and emotions. So they don’t accept
them materially that puts them at an advantage, but they don’t accept that spiritually, puts
them at a great disadvantage. Because before the karmi who is interested in heavenly
planets, heavenly pleasures and all these different things, the purpose of it is to enjoy and be
with people. So when you tell them that God is a person, you can have an eternal spiritual
relationship with Him, not based on mundane qualities but true spiritual qualities, they
accept it, great. And they can see, ok, that’s superior than the mundane. But the
impersonalists can’t see the mundane and they can’t see the spiritual, so actually in
consciousness they are lower. But socially they are higher, because they have more
knowledge, they are more detached. So the farther along in the path. But they can’t get any
farther than where they are. This is a difficulty.
And that all these higher spiritual goal, we also have the element, emotion is very
strong, and especially if it’s not, there is that aspect of appreciating the quality of the
experience, the intenseness, the fullness, it’s not encumbered or distracted by anything else,
and one is able to observe it, then one generally calls it, in the material sphere it’s called
spiritual.
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You go out into the forest and just that feeling of that peace and the greatness of the
forest and the power of nature we’ll call spiritual. All it was you forget about your urban
insanity and just for once noticed what’s going on every day that every forest animal
notices, but you call it spiritual. Or that relationship, giving all those things to those nice
poor kids who really needed it, and then they come back and smile and they are so happy
and everything like that. Some will just see it it is very happy that they can make others
happy and so something for, but some will consider it spiritual that this is actually you are
helping others and this is actually spiritual.
So in so many ways the people will take the elements of anna-maya and prana-maya, or
sensual and extended sensual, and say it is spiritual, and that’s here. So let alone those who
follow varnasrama very strictly and the resultant emotional experience as they get for
dharma which is higher than artha and kama, so it’s easily they’ll think it’s spiritual. They’ll
think it’s the highest spiritual goal. They don’t know beyond. Maharaja Pracinabarhisat
thought doing the karma-kanda yajnas elevating yourself to the heavenly planets that is
spiritual.
The present day worshippers of Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Surya are all followers of the
jnana-kanda. When such persons engage in the devotional activities that begin with hearing
and chanting, their goal is to attain impersonal liberation and become one with the
Supreme.
So then here they are establishing who is who, means there is two main categories,
karma and jnana, those are always there. Means you have karma and jnana in the material,
then in the spiritual you have devotion. But you’ll have thing that seem like overlaps that
are confusing. Like yoga, yoga seems like a third path but technically it’s not, it’s just part of
karma. Occasionally you have some who are interested in the impersonal, so then it will
have that element, then it will be jnana. The Buddhists, they will be in the jnana.
And then in here it’s mentioning those who perform pancopasana, worship of Siva,
Durga, Ganesa, and Surya, and so when these persons they are taking part in this process
and they hear and chant they worship, they worship Visnu. I don’t know if you have heard
this Satya-Narayana puja? Anyone heard of that? So Satya-Narayana puja is the worship of
Visnu by these people, but they are impersonalists, they are trying to get to that platform. So
they are just seeing Visnu is the highest manifestation of the mode of goodness, and then all
these others is different aspects, but it’s all one ultimately. But they approach it through
worship. So it looks like devotion. So much of the time when you go into many Hindus’
house this is what you are seeing. So because of that they have no problem, they are
comfortable taking part in kirtanas and taking prasada and all that, but they think
ultimately it’s impersonal. But at least they are not opposed to these things like an actual
Mayavadi would. The Mayavadis would not necessarily, but they would go, ok, you do, that’s
nice, you are on a lower platform, so you do these things, yes, bhakti is a good medium, but
for us we have gone beyond that.
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Devotee (1): So it seems like with these one or two verses from the Bhagavatam it calls it as
a kaitava dharma, cheating path of something, that Srimad-Bhagavatam is meant for the
topmost transcendentalist. And it seems like it contradicts this path of jnana and karma and
I agree with that, but let alone in Fifth Chapter I guess there is this famous statement,
akämaù sarva-kämo vä mokña-käma udära-dhéù, that somehow it seems that includes
everyone, just it recommends worshiping Vasudeva in any case. So how to put it together?
Maharaja: How to put it together? You understand the question? No. The question is he is
saying in the second verse of Bhagavatam then it’s saying that kaitava-dharma means it’s
kicking out anything that is not connected to Krsna, so any kind of religious process that is
not connected to the Lord is rejected. And so then the Bhagavatam establishes itself as the
paramahamsa-samhita, the book for the paramahamsas. Later in the Bhagavatam then it’s
talking about that everybody can approach the Lord and get whatever they want. You want
karma, worship Krsna. You want jnana, worship Krsna. Impersonal liberation, worship
Krsna. Whatever it is that you want, worship Krsna. So the question comes up, it seems
there is a contradiction, because on one hand we are saying all kinds of unfavorable things
about those in the path of karma and jnana, at the same time, Bhagavatam is saying that all
these people are fine if they are worshiping Krsna. So do we understand that there is no
contradiction here? Do you see where there is no contradiction?
Devotee (1): In my understanding, if no matter what, because most of us coming to knowing
that Krsna is ultimately the goal, because most of us we don’t start from the topmost
transcendental platform.
Maharaja: No, no, but you understand karma-kandi means someone who is practicing the
tenets of the scriptures for the purpose of fruitive gain.
Devotee (1): These things will happen on the way of devotional life as well.
Maharaja: Yes, so therefore it’s like this, if you can perform a particular activity, means you
have three ways you can do it. You could perform the activity and, well let’s say basically
there is two ways you can do it, not three, you could perform the activity following the
tenets of the sastra get the material result and you are done. You could follow the tenets of
the scriptures to please Krsna, you get the material result and you’ll get Krsna consciousness.
Which of those two would be better?
Devotee (1): Getting material and Krsna of course.
Maharaja: So why do you find it a contradiction between these two concepts? Because a
karma-kandi means he is following the first path that we gave, he is only following the
sastra, Krsna has nothing to do with it. The second one is he is worshiping Krsna but
interested in material benefit. So that’s not cheating. Cheating is it’s not connected to
Krsna. That’s the difference. The whole crux is is it connected to Krsna or is it not
connected to Krsna. It’s not any more complicated than that. It’s that simple. That’s all.
Your family is connected to Krsna, you are a grhastha. Your family is not connected to
Krsna you are a grhamedi. It’s that simple. It’s not a matter of you have neck beads on or
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not, or initiated or not, it’s a matter of is it connected to Krsna or not, that’s all. A grhamedi
is not a franchise of materialistic scumbags. Grhamedi simply means the house is the center.
Devotee (1): Maharaja said that it is not a question of being initiated or not. As far as we
know Bhagavad-gita recommends this, evam parampara-praptam, we have to be chained to
the disciplic succession.
Maharaja: That wasn’t the point I was making.
Devotee (1): …not being initiated or not.
Maharaja: What I am saying is there could possibly be large volumes of ISKCON community
members who are grhamedis, because Krsna is not the center of their activity, Krsna is part
of their life, but He is not the center. It doesn’t mean they are not devotees, it just means
Krsna is not the focal point. That’s the difference between the grhastha and the grhamedi.
But because they are devotees they are situated in the grhastha asrama, but their mentality
may be favorable or not, that’s two different things.
In other words, in this try to find out what is the difference and what is the
communality. In other words, this class is for analyzing, that you can understand two
contradictory things at once and not find them contradictory, and they can function at the
same time. That’s what this class is for. In other words, this class is an indepth study of
acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, how simultaneously something two things that have seemingly
no connection are very comfortably connected. If you can catch that then all these subtle
points are there.
So we take it that you have the materialist, he is engaging in a material activity, gets a
material result. Or there is a devotee who is only engaged in the direct spiritual activity
getting no material result. And these are the only two options that we offer. And of the
process these would be your most common points. Materialist is going to go for one, devotee
for the other. But as you said the devotee is not necessarily on that topmost platform from
day one. So he takes that position in the middle where he is performing the activity
correctly devotionally for Krsna, but still having material need then he is getting that
material result, so he is getting both at once. That’s why it says here, it will fulfil, However,
by obeying and serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead the individual soul can, by the
Lord’s mercy, attain the fulfillment of all his desires. So it means all his desires ultimately
means becoming connected with Krsna in love, but also it can mean fulfilling whatever his
needs are. But the focus is on Krsna, not on the material need. When the focus is on Krsna
it’s called devotional service. When the focus is on the material need but it’s connected to
Krsna that’s called karma-yoga. When the focus is on the material activity and no Krsna
that’s called karma, or karma-kanda. But the activity is non-different in all three stages.
The karmis, you go to proper traditional houses in India they get up for mangala-aratika
they get up, they do their puja, they take their bath, they brush their teeth, they put on
fresh clothes, they do everything we do, they ring the bell when they go in the temple they
offer obeisances, they have a spiritual master, the whole thing. But they are doing it because
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this is pious and by doing this they will get to the heavenly planets, that’s a karmi. When we
say karmi technically that’s what we are talking about. These what we generally call karmis
in the Vedas they call outcastes, tribals. So there is many of these tribes around, there is the
American tribe, then there is the English tribe, French tribe, like this there is many tribes.
So the karma-kandi is performing these activities recommended in scripture but for the
purpose of elevating himself to the heavenly planets. Or someone is following those same
things for the purpose of elevating himself to impersonal Brahman, same activity, same
getting up for mangala-aratika and taking their bath. Then you have the devotee who is
doing those things also, but at the same time, he has material needs and it’s important for
him those material needs, means important for him personally, not important for his service,
important for him personally. But in there not it’s touched Krsna, so now this what it is
talking about, what is it, you said that sarva…
Devotee (1): Akämaù sarva-kämo vä mokña-käma…
Maharaja: Yes, that’s what’s that talking about there. You have these desires, but it’s
connected to Krsna. So now it becomes real. Before that it’s illusory. So it becomes real, so
now he is getting his material benefit and the spiritual. But depending upon where is the
focus, is it more on the facility or more on the service, then we’ll say this is sakama, niskama,
or how nicely he is situated. And then when it’s only about Krsna and nothing to do with
himself we’ll consider that pure devotional service. But the activity is the same, he is still
getting up in the morning taking his bath going to mangala-aratika. So the activity doesn’t
change. This is where the confusion comes in. This is where we will find is a contradiction.
Because what the paramahamsas are doing and what the non-devotee are doing is
exactly the same activity. And what the devotee in sadhana-bhakti is doing is still the same
activity. But we make distinction in their consciousness, therefore we’ll say karmis is karma-
yoga, niskama-karma-yoga, bhava-bhakti, prema-bhakti, but they all do the same thing.
Mother Yasoda gets up every day in the morning for brahma-muhurta, every day. So it’s the
same activity. In other words, the activities of the spiritual world that’s what’s given here in
the material world as pious activity.
Devotee (1): So where this connection with karma-yoga with somehow our work connected
with Krsna giving the results for Krsna, for Krsna’s… Somebody is a grhastha and he might
think so just worship the deity of Krsna, and offers food, and again…his fruits of his own
labor.
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (1): But it seems like this karma-yoga it’s connected with Krsna, but it’s devotional
life, but it’s not pure devotional service.
Maharaja: So what’s the problem?
Devotee (1): I just wanted…
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Maharaja: Yes, that’s there. And with time comes to where is doing these things and Krsna
is the point, then it’s pure devotional service. Yudhisthira is a pure devotee but he is a
family man. So it’s consciousness. The whole point is consciousness. So are we conscious of
Krsna? Are we connecting everything to Krsna favorably? Connecting is one thing, but is it
favorable? That’s the whole point. That’s where these things come in. That’s where you see
it’s in consciousness where you see the difference. It’s not so much in the external activity.
You can get symptoms from the external activity, but at the same time it’s more the
consciousness.
Those who do not have material sense gratification or impersonal liberation as their goal
when they perform the devotional activities that begin with hearing and chanting are
devotees of Lord Visnu. They worship the Deity form of Lord Visnu.
The form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternal, spiritual, and all-powerful.
If the Supreme Personality of Godhead were not the highest object of worship, then it may
be said that the worship of Him is temporary and not eternal.
Son, the service you offer to the deity form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead will
not bring you the highest spiritual benefit. Why not? Because you do not think the Lord’s
form is eternal. Therefore you are not a devotee of the Lord. Do you understand the
difference between worship that is eternal and worship that is temporary and pushed by
material motives?
It’s the same, he is not talking about the way, you don’t do this many circles and this and
that. Like I remember one question came up from one devotee, very life-altering faith-
shattering question, they were so disturbed that the yatra where they came from then they
during aratika they would hold the bell with the elbow bent and ring it. But they came to a
new zone and the pujaris there would keep their arms not bent but straight and ring the bell.
So which was right? Which was Krsna conscious and which was absolute total maya
nonsense disgusting rascaldom? That’s not what is being discussed here. What’s being
discussed here is, here you have Devidasa probably every day very strictly more than we do
worships his deity of Visnu with 16 items of worship and all the mantras and the cleanliness
and everything like that. And we could probably learn from him the technicality. But his
father is saying it’s not devotional service. He is not a devotee. Because his goal in
worshiping is sense gratification or impersonal Brahman, and he doesn’t think that that
form of the Lord is eternal. So it’s not even that he is worshiping and their ultimate goal is
this materialistic elements, it’s because they think they don’t think it’s eternal. So therefore
that worship or that devotion is not eternal. That devotion is simply a medium to get to
sense gratification or impersonal Brahman. These are subtle points, these are why they must
be understood.
Devotee (2): Is in these circumstances, Maharaja, that the Lord is present in the deity in His
impersonal Brahman form which is it makes Him impartial towards the worship He is
receiving, whereas in the bhakta He is personally present and therefore He reaches…
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Maharaja: Yes, you could say that.
Devotee (2): He becomes partial according to this devotee. This other one is
constitutionally a devotee, too.
Maharaja: They are constituationally, but Krsna reciprocates, rasa means you reciprocate
according to what is the mood at present, not of what you would like it to be.
Husband comes home, he is all chirpy, comes home, his wife is grumpy. So he can’t go on
the premise, no, my wife has to be chirpy, she won’t be, she will be grumpy. And if he
doesn’t accept that then she’ll become more grumpy. So rasa means dealing with what’s
happening now. If he acknowledges she is grumpy, then very quickly it will turn into chirpy.
But if it doesn’t then it becomes more grumpy. Then you get the maha-grump, until it
becomes the ugra-grumpy.
So in other words, you are dealing with what’s happening right now. So the point is the
living entity is seeing Him as simply sense gratification, therefore He won’t reciprocate with
them as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply just as some aspect of the universal
form.
Devotee (2): Yet there are others who see Him as a person but still we are not careful to…
Maharaja: No, they Him as a person, but they don’t see a relationship with Him. Just like
let’s say the Nyayist or the Vaisesikas, they see God is eternal, they see Him as the supreme
person, they see Him as a person eternally, but there is no interest of a relationship with
Him. They simply are entangled in the material world, He is organizing the material world
according to our karma, we change our karma, then we get out of it, and so the impersonal
understanding is there. So here is people who accept that the form is eternal and still it’s not
devotion. So it’s that combination of that devotion to the Lord is the ultimate and you
accept that it’s eternal and your purpose is not the karma and jnana, as ultimate, it may be
temporarily, ok you want material facility, you want to be freed, like devotees say I just want
to get out of the material world is so painful, but that’s impersonalism, that’s Brahman
understanding, it’s ok, get out of the material world, but they are not talking about getting
into the spiritual world. They are just talking about getting out of the material world. So
that means their devotion is mixed therefore with jnana.
So it’s not a problem as long as the ultimate goal is Krsna, that devotion to Krsna, then
it will get them out of the, and as the things they get more inspired and then they focus
more on Krsna as a person.
Devotee (2): As aspiring Vaisnavas…myself, I have to wait until the Lord bestows His
mercy, I cannot gain it in any way.
Maharaja: You have to wait for Him to bestow, you can’t gain it in any way. Means in other
words, by serving Him with devotion in the association of Vaisnavas that then is the
quickest way to get the Lord’s mercy. In other words, one always has to wait for His mercy,
but it’s just a matter of He reciprocates according to what we are interested in.
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We are sitting there and very absorbed, ok, my mind is not able to chant, I am not able
to focus on the name, I am not this and that, I am so fallen, and I am so distracted by this
and that, all these different things, that keeps going on and on and on and getting seemingly
worse and worse and worse. Why?
Devotee (2): Chanting offensively.
Maharaja: Chanting offensively, but what is the key point. We said that Krsna
consciousness is so simple. What’s the point we have missed here?
Devotee (2): He is a person.
Maharaja: He is a person. Why do you want to chant nicely? Why do you want to chant
without offense? Why do you want the mind not to be distracted? Because you want to
remember Krsna, be absorbed in Krsna. As soon as you take that route you see everything
moves forward very simply. But we are taking the difficult, we are going to climb the
mountain on our own strength. I am going to overcome this material energy because of my
sadhana and my control of my mind. No. We make that endeavor, but we are making that
endeavor because we are trying to please Krsna.
Devotee (2): You make me aware that’s what I am trying to do with persons here, just
to…their attention and the mind distract…
Maharaja: So the point comes that when it’s Krsna that’s when it becomes dynamic. The
other it’s connected to Krsna, yes, but the focus is on the other. In other words, the focus is
on getting out of the material world instead of getting into the spiritual world. So therefore
then since that’s the taste you Krsna reciprocates in that way, and therefore all the different
obstacles and this come up and this and that, it’s very difficult, trying to go, oh, Krsna let me
get over this, like that, so that’s there. But at the same time, when it’s about Krsna and
pleasing Krsna then it becomes favorable to Krsna. The other it’s indirectly Krsna, yes, and
that when you do remember Him and that it’s by His grace that you will be able to cross it
then that’s dynamic, but when it’s just trying to control the mind and focus and like that
and all the different things.
We had a godbrother, he used to a harmonica stand, they hang around the neck, he
hang the harmonical, so he had a picture of Krsna right there, so he couldn’t see anything
else other than Krsna. He’d walk around with that, so there is no maya whatever he…
So the mechanical process how you express your attempt to create a favorable
environment to always be absorbed in Krsna, but it’s being absorbed in Krsna that is the
motive, that is the drive, is the goal. So one can’t forget that. That’s why one has to be able
to see these things at once. Otherwise it’s said, no, but if we are not doing the thing then it’s
not…, yes, that’s there, but that’s there as an expression of the devotion. If we just say, oh,
then I only have to do the devotion, then you lose the form. So we see in history that the
whole environment is all because of this, the whole Western philosophies and theologies are
all based on misunderstanding these two. One is the form is so important, the other is, no,
it’s the mood is important. But in both of them it’s form no need of mood, the other is mood
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no need of form. But the point is you are supposed to have mood and form. Otherwise how
do you express the mood? So that’s the problem, we’ll take it it’s this or that. No, it’s both
together, that’s acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. Those two they are not contradictory. The form
is carrying the mood, but the form only has meaning if there is mood.
So that’s the point, then in our chanting, in our service, our dealing with the Vaisnavas,
whatever it is, then that element of pleasing Krsna becomes the prominent. Pleasing Krsna
is the prominent, therefore it becomes dynamic. Otherwise then Krsna will reciprocate as
we see. We want it to be hard, Krsna makes it hard. It’s already hard, He doesn’t really have
to do much. We are interested in Him, then it becomes dynamic.
So therefore we can see here, worship the deity but their goal isn’t devotional activity.
So even the devotee is sakama his ultimate goal, you asked any devotee their ultimate goal is
develop love for Krsna, any devotee their goal is that, though they may be distracted by so
many things and are performing activities for material fruitive results. But the ultimate goal
is not that. So someone whose ultimate goal is that is not a devotee, or who thinks the Lord’s
form is not eternal. So especially when the two are combined then that is very strongly not
devotional. When there is one or the other sometimes it’s seemingly more bewildering, but
it’s still the same thing. It’s just a little bit more sublte, a little more sattvic, a little more
knowledge. That’s all.
Devidasa: Yes. If one does not think that the form of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead is eternal, then one’s worship of the Lord is not eternal worship. But why can one
not employ a temporary kind of worship to seek the eternal truth?
Ok he is saying, ok if I don’t accept the Lord is eternal, then my worship of Him isn’t
eternal, ok. But why can’t you use a temporary form to get?
Lahiri Mahasaya: You cannot say that the worship you perform is eternal worship. The
worship the Vaisnavas perform is eternal. The form of the Lord is eternal, their worship of
that form is eternal, and all in relation to them are eternal. Therefore the Vaisnava religion
is eternal.
Devidasa: The Deity form of the Lord is a statue made by a human being. How can such
a form be eternal?
So these are the subtleties what we are getting into here.
Lahiri Mahasaya: The Deity form worshipped by the Vaisnavas is not like that. First, the
Supreme Personality of Godhead is not formless, like the impersonal Brahman. The form of
the Supreme Personality of Godhead is all powerful, eternal, and filled with knowledge and
bliss. That is the Lord’s form that should be worshipped. In the beginning the Lord’s form is
manifested within the individual spirit soul. Thus the Lord’s form appears in the living
entity’s heart. When bhakti-yoga (devotional service) is manifested in the heart, then the
Lord’s form also appears there. When a devotee sees in his heart the spiritual form of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, the devotee knows that this is the same form manifested
externally as the Deity. The impersonalists do not worship the form of the Supreme Lord in
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this way. They think the Deity is a statue made of material elements, a statue that while it is
being worshipped is imagined to be the same as the impersonal Supreme. However, the truth
is that the Deity form of the Lord is not at all a statue made of material elements. In this
way the impersonalists and the devotees have very different conceptions of the worship of
the Deity of the Lord. By the mercy of a bona-fide master one may accept Vaisnava
initiation. Then one is able to directly see that the Deity of the Lord is not a statue made of
material elements.
So the devotee because he knows the Lord has form, he takes up the worship of the
Lord, worship of that form, so the Lord is manifested in the heart, so the deity is the
external or visible manifestation of that same form of the Lord externally that we can see.
Because we are still working on the material senses so we are able to see Him there. But who
we are worshiping is that form that’s within the heart. That’s the importance of parampara
and deity is there. So yaga means deity. So that form is given. So we have been given that
form of Krsna as kaisora as an adolescent, that’s our form, that’s what we are worshiping, so
that’s what we will see.
So the impersonalists they think they in their heart is Brahman, so they think it’s a
manifestation of Brahman. Or those who are in the heavenly planets they think that that’s
what’s there, so therefore then the Lord is just the mode of goodness. So in either case they
are only seeing what is within their heart. That’s why in your really technical puja then you
start with the manasa-puja and everything like that, then you start the external worship,
you start there always. And before that in the earlier stage of purvanga-karma then you are
recognizing the Lord in the heart, then you are moving the Lord to the top of the head
destroying the material body, recreating it, putting it back in the heart, and then in that
condition then you are doing the manasa-puja. And then from the manasa-puja then you
are doing the bahira-puja. So technically that’s what’s going on. So this principle of it starts
from the heart and then manifests, or like when Krsna appeared he first manifested in the
mind of Vasudeva, then from there then He was transferred to Devaki’s mind, and then
from there to the womb. So this is how the process works. This is what goes on, we may or
may not understand it, but this is what’s happening.
So depending upon how we see Krsna, oh, Krsna is so nice, then when we look at the
deity He is nice. Oh Krsna, why aren’t you doing this for me that one you see the deity,
that’s what you see. He is the guy that didn’t do this for me. So it starts there. He is the
supreme person, He is who He is, but He will manifest according to how we see Him in the
heart. That’s the point.
Devotee (3): How does initiation help to see the deity?
Maharaja: How does initiation help to see the deity? Because then along with, means the
name, the form, the qualities, the pastimes, all that’s given with it. Then it’s up to our
realization to be able to appreciate it.
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Just like the name, we get the name, the power of the name is not according to us. Our
appreciation of the name is according to us. When you are given the holy name that’s the
supremely fully potent Personality of Godhead. We may only appreciate Him up to the stage
of namabhasa, but the name is not there. We are chanting in namabhasa, that’s our
understanding, but the name Himself is not on the platform of namabhasa. So it’s just the
same as the deity in the temple, it’s not that He is only on this platform because we are on
this platform, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But because we think of Him in
this way He reciprocates in that way. That’s what Prabhupada said we worship Laksmi-
Narayana. It is Radha and Krsna standing there, but we approach them as Laksmi-Narayana
they reciprocate in that way.
Devotee (3): And what about initiation?
Maharaja: What about initiation, I said initiation is when you are given all these things, the
name, the form, the qualities, and pastimes of the Lord. So it’s there, it’s potentially there.
Now it’s a matter of us cultivating and coming to that platform of appreciating what we
have.
Devotee (2): Is this also influenced, Maharaja, by the giver?
Maharaja: Technically speaking what you have received is not, but their ability to help you
realize what you have that can be. But if one is sincere even that won’t get in the way.
The difficulty comes in understanding these things because we tend to make it about
ourself, so it’s all about us, so therefore let’s say you have a bona fide devotee initated in the
proper parampara, he is a madhyama, so he gives you initiation and you received from him
the name. So we will tend to think he has only given you the madhyama-adhikari name, but
there is no such thing. There is Krsna, that’s all. But his realization was only on the
madhyama platform, so he can get you to the madhyama platform. But to think there is a
problem with the name because of that because of his realization that’s not the proper
understanding. That’s simply his appreciation of what he has got from his spiritual master.
That’s the whole point. So it’s a matter of realization. So that’s why it’s recommended, if the
spiritual master is uttama-adhikari then very easily he can get you to that platform, because
there will be no obstacles at any point. If he is a madhyama then basically there is still also
not much of a problem because of the proper situation.
Neophyte that’s more of a problem, because only how much they advance you can
advance technically. But at the same time, if that sincerity is there then one can still
advance quicker than the spiritual master, it’s not a problem. Especially because of the
method that we use. Means in the Kali-yuga the method of having a founder-acarya is
always used, it’s always. All the bona fide sampradayas all have a founder-acarya. So then he
gives the instructions because it’s the instructions that you progress by. So by studying
Prabhupada’s books and then from His books the teachings of the acaryas are given to us, so
we have the advantage of uttama-adhikari instruction even if our spiritual master is not.
That’s the thing. Now to see that you are following it and you are progessing, that then will
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be the greater or lesser strength of the spiritual master. But your opportunity to advance to
that platform is there. Otherwise why would in Kali-yuga a system be given that’s not going
to work on the people of Kali-yuga? So that’s the thing.
The most essential points that are what make every other system work in the other
three ages those externals are stripped away and only the essential is kept for the Kali-yuga.
So it’s the most obvious, the most dynamic. The other ones the external form is extremely
important, but in the Kali-yuga it’s not. So that’s why it’s not really an importance, the
important thing is to see is the spiritual master in the bona fide line, is he committed to
Krsna consciousness, to Prabhupada’s movement, to following Prabhupada’s instructions, if
that’s there, then one has no problem. And then one takes advantage of that and any other
senior Vaisnavas that one feels inspired by to follow those instructions that Prabhupada is
giving, and one will advance.
That’s why you would see, devotees would be advancing even if their spiritual master fell
away because they have been connected to the line and they are following Prabhupada’s
instructions. So what’s missing? What’s missing is someone there taking personal
responsibility to see that you are following Prabhupada’s instructions. That’s what’s missing.
Therefore that’s why one takes shelter of a siksa-guru or many.
Devotee (2): Under this parameter of understanding a sincere rikwalla.
Maharaja: A sincere?
Devotee (2): The ones that follow the rtvik philosophy.
Maharaja: A sincere rtvik. Isn’t that an oxymoron? That’s like saying a Semitic nazi, a
Jewish-compliant nazi. It doesn’t go together.
Because the point is the rtvik just as a side point, it’s not mentioned in any scripture, no
one follows it, absolutely no one. So to be so stuck on it. Because what is the main drive?
One can say, oh, they are sincere in following Prabhupada’s instructions, but if you look at
it, what specifically does the rtvik philosophy do? Because spiritually it doesn’t have
anything to offer. What it offers is that a temple president does not have to worry about the
spiritual master having any authority over the people in his temple. He technically becomes
the authority because he is the temple devotees’ link to Prabhupada. So all it is it’s a political
adjustment for temple presidents to get power. Because if you’ll notice who is the most
enthusiastic about the rtvik philosophies are all generally temple presidents. So that’s the
point, it’s a political thing. That’s all. It’s not actually a philosophy.
Devotee (2): So ultimate if let’s say a sincere aspiring Vaisnava is somehow or other is under
that school of thought by chance following this temple president mean that half of the truth
has been taken that actually the siksa is taken.
Maharaja: The siksa is taken, but it’s being compromised in that the association of Vaisnavas
is not there. Because what one has to do is, because if you talk, the rtviks will accept, yes, if
the spiritual master is an uttama-adhikari the rtviks don’t have any problem you take
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initiation from him, so actually they are technically not even pure rtviks, even in their own
admission, I mean in their own philosophy. They define the philosophy, at the same time,
they have their lupole. So that means their vision is no Vaisnava is an uttama-adhikari and
only Srila Prabhupada can be an uttama-adhikari. So right there that means they have a
materialistic vision of Vaisnavas. So if you have that that’s then what’s it, mahä-prasäde
govinde näma-brahmaëi vaiñëave, svalpa-puëyavatäà räjan viçväso naiva jäyate. Such
person they have hellish mentality because they don’t see Vaisnavas in the proper situation.
So even though they have Prabhupada’s instructions because the central point of all
Vaisnavism is Vaisnavas. Therefore technically they don’t actually have anything. That’s
why I am saying you can’t say sincere rtvik in the same breath. They don’t go together, you
can’t connect them.
Devotee (2): Sincere follower of Vaisnavism that may be under that management.
Maharaja: You could say, but if they are actual seeker of the truth when they come across
the proper explanation they’ll give it up. But when they dogmatically stick to it means they
are not sincere.
Because we have to remember, following there are millions of people who follow Vedic
tradition very strongly and don’t want to do anything else. So we say, ok, well, they get up
mangala-aratika, worship the deity, but we have just been going through this whole chapter
is dedicated to people who do that and technically aren’t devotees. So it’s not that, oh, they
worship the temple and they distribute prasada and they distribute books, ok, that’s there,
but what is their purpose of that? Their purpose is not in glorification of the Vaisnavas.
Because the point is when you get to the spiritual world it’s not going to be just you and
Prabhupada. It’s going to be you, Prabhupada, and all of his followers.
Devotee (2): This consciousness could be found also in the stopped followers of Srila
Prabhupada within the ISKCON society which project the same principle of sectarian view,
only within the…
Maharaja: Yes, but that will be a narrow view of what’s appropriate. The other one doesn’t
actually have any basis. That’s the thing, it’s a fallacious foundation. The other means it’s
just they are narrow in their understanding. Means it has a strength in that one is very
careful to keep to one’s group, but at the same time, one is not recognizing that there is
other groups.
Just like in the spiritual world there is groups of devotees who are worshiping the Lord
but they don’t have anything to do with another group. So not having anything to do with
the other group that’s just the way things work, but that doesn’t mean you don’t respect the
other group. The Western mentality, if I am not involved with them I can’t respect them.
No, you can respect them and not be involved.
Devotee (2): One is destructive and the other is constructive.
Maharaja: Yes. So in the same way, it’s just like the brahmacaris don’t get involved with
ladies, but that means they can’t respect them. So it’s the same principle. It’s just very, very
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narrow. Nice, it keeps them situated wherever, it doesn’t let them get off the path. But at
the same time, because the path is very narrow that they are on or their vision of the path is
very narrow, then as their situations develop they are unable to apply that being fixed in
their new situations.
So therefore the devotee then moving out of the temple being a grhastha can’t actually
function properly because it’s been that women are the problem, but at the same time he is
marrying one. So now is the woman the problem or is he the problem? So therefore it
becomes very, very difficult. And then it’s only those in the temple and connected this that,
but now you are out in the community. So all these different things because of that narrow
vision it creates problem later.
So that’s the thing acceptance doesn’t mean crossing the line. That’s the other point,
ISKCON doesn’t deal with other Gaudiya societies very intimately but that doesn’t mean
they should be disrespectful or rough in their dealings. But at the same time it doesn’t mean
that to drop that, means that these other Gaudiya societies can come in and distribute their
books on our premises and this and that. So in other words, you see amongst the Gaudiyas
they respect each other’s position, have a formal relationship, but there is no intimate
relationship between one Math and another, nothing, zero.
Devotee (2): And furthermore in a society…based on Vedic culture we find the principle or
the concept of the reality of family life very clear, they don’t have problems to relate with
the…
Maharaja: Yes, they are there. But those who have, the nouveau-Gaudiyas they have
problems because they just have their social dysfunctions. So they are not picking up the
culture from there, they simply they like a particular person and that’s the only reason they
are there basically. And as soon as that person goes they go with another person. So they
just keep kind of moving around. I have even heard someone say that. What are you going
to do when this one goes? Oh, we’ll find another one. So they have already been through.
So it’s a fine point of the culture. Prabhupada in his purports talks about, there are many
spiritual societies and one should take advantage of them. So the point is that there is no
difference in the philosophy, there is no difference in where you’ll go with the philosophy.
What Prabhupada talks about simply is how efficient is the preaching machinery, that’s
what he is talking about. And since cooperation is the basis then the present day Gaudiya
machinery isn’t based on cooperation. As soon as you become senior that people want you as
a guru you have to start your own mission. So you start from scratch as opposed to now, ok
now you have two senior Vaisnavas who can preach together and with time there will be
three, there will be ten, there will be a hundred, then that’s powerful. So that’s what
Prabhupada says the Gaudiya mission is asar, useless, not because it’s spiritually useless. As a
preaching machine it’s useless. It doesn’t do much. That’s the point. That’s the only thing
lost.
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But this what we talked about here the rtvik thing that itself is spiritually useless.
Materially it may be good for management, but spiritually it has no benefit. While this other
is spiritually it’s still beneficial, managerially it’s a disaster. They are completely different
considerations.
Devotee (2): I come back to the point of how we get benefit from worshiping Krsna then we
can see also this external or financial development of the rtvik is also polluted let’s say due
to the lack of the full purity. But still it’s within the parameter of…
Maharaja: It’s within the parameter of… I would say it would be like Hindus, like Hindus
because they follow the cultural form then they do accept the principle of guru and sastra
and worship and all that though they are not actually getting really much benefit from it
other than piety. That coming in contact with the bona fide line they would continue doing
the same thing but in proper connection. I would say the rtviks would be the same. Their
lifestyle is pious, it’s according to sastra. But I wouldn’t say that spiritually that there is
really any benefit to it. But because someone is practiced at that if they take up the proper
understanding then very quickly they’ll move forward because they are practiced at the
Vaisnava lifestyle. I would take it that way. (end of lecture) (end)
March 8, 2010
Maharaja: Lahiri Mahasays has established that those who are following this Vaisnava
culture and behavior, because that’s actually what the Vedic culture is. Brahminical culture
actually means Vaisnava culture. But it’s not deemed Vaisnava culture until someone
actually has the mentality. Because in the form there is no difference between the
brahminical culture and the Vaisnava culture. Varnasrama, brahminical culture, Vaisnava
culture, sanatana-dharma, they are all exactly the same. The lifestyle is the same, the
practices are the same. But the difference is there in the mentality, what is your focus, what
is your goal. So Devidasa being a proper Santipura brahmana he is following all these
different things nicely, getting up in the morning, taking his bath, mangala-aratika,
worshiping the deity, chanting, all these different aspects they are doing. But because they
have a goal other than devotional service and they think that this worship is temporary, it’s
only a means to get the actual result then it’s not devotional service. Because devotional
service the process and the result are the same. They are the same. If they are not the same,
you won’t get the same result. So he has established that now. And so now Devidasa then is
saying.
Devidasa: I see that. The Vaisnavas are not fanatics. They see very subtle things. The
worship of the Deity form of the Lord and the worship of a material statue are very different
indeed. However, I do not see any difference in the external actions of these two kinds of
worship. The difference is in the spiritual faith of the worshipper. I will think about this
subject for a few more days. Father, I have one big doubt. As far as I am able to understand,
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the impersonalists worship of the Lord is merely a form of cheating and trickery. At a later
time I will place this question before your feet.
So he is saying, you don’t see externally, he is confirming that you see no difference.
The difference is in the mentality. The difference is is it actually connected to the
parampara, does it actually have the cit-potency, because that’s what makes it spiritual, that
it’s the cit-potency. It’s not the form, it’s that the form is empowered by the cit-potency. But
certain forms are recommended for empowerment.
Just like you want to carry electricity you don’t get out a stick of wood. You have to get
out some kind of metallic wire that will carry the electricity. Different kinds of wire will
carry different qualities of electricity. So depending upon what you are doing then you have
cheap, you use your aluminum wire, better than that use copper, better than that you use
silver, I think best they use gold. So they use all these depending upon what is the situation
then they’ll use.
So in the same way devotional service it’s not the form, the form is what can carry it. So
that’s why certain rules and regulations are recommended, because they best carry the
devotional mood. Because since devotional service means being conscious, being conscious
of Krsna, and then being favorable to Krsna, then the activity that is to express your
devotion to Krsna should be favorable to Krsna, otherwise how is it devotion? If it’s going to
be free, and the final point free from karma and jnana, how is it going to be free from karma
and jnana if it’s not beneficial for Krsna? You are thinking of Krsna, it’s favorable to Krsna,
but still you have your own motives. So that’s why then the more subtle is there. The gross is
you are conscious of Krsna and it’s favorable to Krsna. So that means you have just seen
Krsna in everything something in the creation, then from that you adjust of what I see in
the creation, what is actually favorable to Krsna. I see the creation, then next step I see God
within that creation, next step after that is what elements of God’s creation are favorable
for me to express my affection for Him.
Means your cabbage leaves composting out in the backyard for your organic garden it’s
still also Krsna, that process is Krsna. Otherwise how is it that the leaves are able to break
down and they become compost that then will grow more cabbages? Sorry if we stick on
cabbages because generally Americans use potatoes, but since spending so much time in
Eastern Europe the cabbage becomes a much more prominent example. Because potatoes are
ordinary, while cabbage is a more exotic. How do you say cabbage?
Devotee (1): Shum.
Maharaja: So you wouldn’t have shum frites. So therefore I guess the pommes frites has
become the thing. So therefore potato has become more the thing.
So then in that being favorable to Krsna that means that actually it should be
something that Krsna likes, it’s a form that He likes to interact with His devotees based on.
So we can sit around and say, oh yes, it doesn’t matter what you do and we know all this
Vaisnava trappings aren’t so important, all these different things, we can do something
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that’s more modern, more acceptable to the modern man, bla bla. Yes, that’s true. But what
is the motive? What is the motive? If our ultimate motive is it pleases Krsna, the ultimate
motive is that it’s good for Krsna, then why would we be taking that stand unless that’s
what’s going to make it favorable to Krsna? In other words, we are making it favorable for
ourselves. We are uncomfortable being ourselves in public, we are uncomfortable presenting
ourselves as ourselves. Therefore we want to adjust that. But now is that free from karma
and jnana? If only by doing that will you be allowed to preach, fine, we’ll change, what do
we care. You wear the bedsheet, you don’t wear the bedsheet, that’s not the big deal. The
point is chanting Hare Krsna. But what is the motive behind it, that’s what has to be seen.
Therefore this analysis like this.
So we can analyze, is it actually, otherwise it sounds great by the modern liberalistic
concepts you are doing what is for the greater benefit. Yes, if we preach to these people and
we come as ourselves we’ll be seen as strange and different, as if nobody else is strange and
different, and therefore we won’t be able to get involved and become part of their lives and
all this. Yes. So it sounds good because you are considering the bigger whole, it sounds
broad-minded, it sounds liberal. But actually it may be totally self-centered. That’s the
wonderfulness of the modern liberalism, it’s completely self-centered but it’s geared so it
sounds like it’s beneficial for others. That’s the problem with it. So all the things that it’s
supposed to not do is exactly what it does. It’s very interesting. If you read the history this is
how it worked out.
The first ones to use this actually successfully were the French. They are the ones who
established the first basically modern Republic because they had the kings and this and that
and they were just the local area, but then with this modern think coming up how it is for
the benefit of the people then the kings actually took up that mood. So then they had to
work it was beneficial for the people. But then in doing that then it does two things, one, it
brings the king, he has to be more careful what he does because it has to be beneficial
because he has to go through these systems, but at the same time, since it’s for the benefit of
the people, that means you can actually do whatever you need to do that’s beneficial to the
people. So before it had to be according to religion that you can exert authority. The king
had his divine right this and that according to the authority of the Church and these kind
of things, but it still had to be within the realm of religious if, of course, he was worried
about those things. If he wasn’t, hey. But then it would be pointed out, it’s not good, it’s not
religious, it’s just he is self-centered.
But now with this modern liberalism now he can enact laws that are very, very evasive
into the individual’s life that have no basis on religion, they are not Christian, they are not
based on the Bible, they are just based on what’s good management to control the people. So
actually the liberalism gives rise to what was then called Absolutism. So it actually increased
that absolute power that people were so worried about religion, and they made the secular
state because religion created all these wars and all these different things. It’s like we are
Catholics, so these guys are Protestants, so we got to kill them, or we are Protestants, these
guys are Catholics. So all that control that they saw came from religion was kicked out and
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they made the secular state. But at the same time, it actually gave more power to the state,
because now it’s not controlled at all by religion. At least before it had to be, ok, we are
Christian, we are connected to God, so therefore if someone is not we can kill them. But
here it’s just dealing with power. So even though the other was a misinterpretation and
misuse of the authority of religion, now you throw that out, now there is no boundaries at
all. It’s just it has to appear to be nice for the people, that’s all, that’s the only thing, if you
can present it that it’s really a nice thing, that’s all. So that’s the whole interesting thing
about it, the consideration is not the favorableness for a higher purpose other than power
and control of the state.
So this whole basis of the liberalism we can see that’s all it does. So devotees to use that
in their life as a basis for their own determination then how actually is it liberal? It’s just
called liberal. Bosnia they called it ethnic cleansing. According to most it would be called
massacre, genocide, but you just change the words, and it becomes nice.
So the difficulty comes, words aren’t enough, words carry something. The word isn’t
actually what is getting the thing done, unless the word is God of course. If it’s not then it’s
only carrying. So what are you carrying? So it sounds nice, it doesn’t sound fanatic. But
actually what is it carrying?
Devotee (2): Could be also that this movement that promoted this French Revolution
seeing the despotism or wrong practice of…corruption within the religious leaders.
Maharaja: It’s there, but then the point is you don’t change the system. You correct what’s
corrupt.
I have a busket of potatoes, we are going back to potatoes now since we are talking
France now, then they have some bad spots on them. So now do I throw out the potatoes
and then I have nothing? Or I replace it with cabbages? And then now you are going to walk
down the street and there will be the little vendor there and have his little caray (?) there
full of oil and he’ll be making fried cabbage.
The point is so that’s what’s happening, means if there is corruption in the Church,
correct the corruption, don’t throw out the Church. If there is corruption in the
government you don’t throw out the government, you correct the corruption. Your body has
a disease, they don’t say, oh, you got a disease, so terminate. No, they fix the disease. So
that’s the natural method.
Devotee (2): What about, of course it’s not the time, but in the Manu-samhita also there is
relation about even brahmanas who may remove the ksatriyas and become violent…
Maharaja: That’s a detail, the point is that you are establishing here God consciousness, so
you are seeing what’s favorable what’s not. So the point is what’s favorable that’s what’s
kept, what’s not favorable that’s what’s changed. But it’s changed to what is given in the
sastra that is favorable to what God says is favorable. Otherwise if we just make it up, it’s not
going to work. It won’t work. It’s like kids out in the garden playing house-house and you
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pick this and that and it becomes lunch. It’s nice, it’s fun, they get a taste from it, but there
is no reality. So people get a taste from certain, but where is the reality?
So your modern society doesn’t work on modern liberal elements, it actually works on
ancient techniques that were used before by people who actually knew how to manage.
That’s the whole point. It works like there. It’s just like, you can elect the President, but can
the people elect who is the chief of staff of the army? No. Can they elect who is the
counselor to that President advising him? What about the foreign minister? The things that
actually make the government work the people don’t deal with. Because what does the
common man know about administration? So they want a particular flavor in the
government, ok, that they have a say. But ultimately in the day to day running they don’t.
Because they don’t know how to manage their own lives, that’s why they have to have an
administrator. If they can manage their own lives why do you need an administrator? You
have a bunch of brahmanas living in the forest, do they need a ksatriya? No. You need a
ksatriya when you go beyond that. So that’s the point, if you actually have independent
thinking people you don’t require it. But because you have a lot of people that don’t.
So in other words, each of these social systems has its position, democracy is an
important part of it, but up to a point. The element of authority, your autocratic, oligarchic,
these kind of things those are details of way to do it, but that has to be able to control the
democratic, and that whatever is your political authority, that has to be controlled by higher
principles of human life, by philosophy, by some actual human theory.
Devotee (2): It seems that also some reaction is created in some intelligent people about an
enthusiastic system that is too bureaucratical therefore they think…
Maharaja: But then at the same time, those same intellectuals sit in a chair at the university
that is bureaucratic beyond description, or a political system that’s bureaucratic to the endth
degree. So all it is it’s a different kind. It’s just like everybody is eating food but you think his
food is stupid. How can he eat that? And he is thinking, how can he eat this?
I remember one devotee was telling me from England. So in England popcorn is always
sweet at least before, previously. But in America it was salty. So one day he sees at some
carnival something advertising American popcorn, so the thinks, ok well, cool, let’s go check
it out. So he buys some, and what’s this? It’s salty.
You take something and you just adjust its form and you think that’s crazy. But at the
same time they do it themselves but in a different form. So that you always have, you
similarly change the detail but the principle of cooking hasn’t, but then you’ll say, oh, that’s
not food.
Devotee (2): Therefore that’s best to refer to…God.
Maharaja: That’s why you have to refer to sastra. Everything has to be according to sastra.
Then you use your intelligence, you use your inspiration, you either alone or with others
work out some nice plan. But it has to be based on sastra because only sastra is giving the
complete picture of how the creation works, and you can’t work outside of that. So even the
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karmis speculate it’s still according to sastra if it is working. If it doesn’t work it’s not
according to sastra. But if it works because it is.
Now one can say, so therefore we don’t need the sastra, where was that person last life?
If they are a leader in the Western society that they are either an intellectual leader, a
political leader, an economic leader, or some kind of art leader, where were they in the
previous life? They were in India. From India it is the central station, from here how well
you follow sastra you are pious you move up, go to the heavenly planets, Brahman, go back
to Godhead. You are pious but you don’t have any higher purpose, you are not actually
trying for the heavenly planets, you are just living being good being nice, next birth is in the
West. In other words, you have that piety but you don’t have the sastra because you didn’t
care for it. You didn’t care for the higher purpose, so therefore you are in an environment
where you have that. Then next stop from that is 8.400.000.
In other words, it’s just one lifetime back that they have been dealing with sastra. And if
that’s been their meditation the subtle body goes with the soul. So why he won’t think in
that way? Prabhupada mentioned Bach is very close to Sama Veda. So that must mean he
was that kind of a brahmana or priest or something that was dealing in that, dealing in
music, but he wasn’t so worried about other than being a little religious. So that’s then he
ends up like this. So like this then it all happens. Prabhupada mentioned George Harrison,
no it was Lennon, right?
Devotee (2): Actually all of them, but then particularly John Lennon.
Maharaja: Yes, that was he was a babu in Calcutta, he was really into music and this and
that, refined, you see them there, very fine living, big houses, laid back, not too worried
about things, and music is, I remember going to one of these big, the Malik family, which is
that family where Prabhupada was in, the… You come into the house and then there was
this interesting kind of living room it was kind of like sunken, and then it had around it all
the way around these three-sided rooms, they were closed on three sides, but open to the
living room all the way round. So the middle was open for different things, and one area is
like a seating area, one area is the deities’, one area is this and that, one area it was big area
it’s just all musical instruments. So that meant in the family music was an important thing.
So previously any babu knew music. Hanuman is expert in music. It’s standard. Arjuna is
expert in music, it’s standard stuff like that. So here it is and refined and he is probably
quite good at it, quite cultured, quite pious, and so then he ends up here. It’s just kind of
natural. He didn’t have to study it, it just happens.
So this is the whole point, why we are making this point is even in the West if it’s
working it’s only working because of some distant practice of doing something from the
Vedic literature. So this idea, oh, he is doing it it’s not according to the Vedas. No, it is. Just
he doesn’t know it, that’s the illusion. And us not seeing is then a further illusion.
Devotee (2): Like…constantly applying sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana.
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Maharaja: Yes, always see it. So that’s the whole point, so that’s what he is saying, Devidasa
is saying here Vaisnavas aren’t fanatics, they see subtle things. So the devotees if one works
on this analytical platform you can explain this very nicely. So here we accept
reincarnation, but most of the Western theories their problem is the lack of understanding
of reincarnation and karma. Basically the basis of all their problems comes from this. Their
doubts in God and doubts in this and that come from just this simple thing. So then you’d
have to start there explain that and move forward.
So the element is one is able to see in this way, then one can explain Krsna
consciousness to anybody, any situation, and then from that then you see someone like this,
then Devidasa is a smart person, he is a logician, he teaches logic, I don’t mean modern
logic, I mean Vedic logic, very subtle, basically same but much more subtle. He knows
scripture, he can quote scripture, he lives a sattvic lifestyle, and he is able to be convinced,
and he is from Santipura. It may not mean much to us but it means something.
After speaking these words, Devidasa Vidyaratna went with Sambhunatha to their
host’s house, where they spent the remainder of the afternoon. Still, they did not find an
opportunity to talk among themselves. Everyone at that house found all their happiness in
singing the holy names of Lord Hari.
So no time for mental speculation, they are all doing kirtana.
The next afternoon they all went to the paramahamsa babaji’s terrace. There Devidasa
Vidyaratna, Sambhunatha, and Lahiri Mahasaya stayed close together. At that time the kazi
of Brahmana-puskarini also came there. Seeing the kazi, the Vaisnava respectfully stood up.
Happily greeting the Vaisnavas, the kazi entered the terrace.
Do you know this kazi of Brahmana-puskarini? No? Maybe let’s take it out of the high-
grade.
Devotee (3): Chand Kazi.
Maharaja: It is the Chand Kazi. Vamana-pukura. Brahmana-puskarini, Vamana-pukura. Yes,
that’s a very uniquely wonderful. Yes, that’s cool. So Brahmana-puskarini, Vamana-pukura.
So now Chand Kazi has come. It’s either Chand Kazi or his son. But remember this it’s still
associates of the Lord are present, so it might be the Chand Kazi himself.
And they are Vaisnavas, he is Moslem. But they are standing up, why? He could say we
are brahmanas this that, no. But because he is respected for his authority, he is
administrative authority. So it doesn’t matter what his faith is, that power has to be
respected. So the devotee is always respectful because it’s Krsna’s power, so it’s respected. So
that’s the thing. But he’ll respect the devotees for their position. So that’s the thing in the
Vedic, it’s not one-sided. I am the king, I respect no one. No. The king is respected by
everyone for his power, but he respects anybody else who has some other quality of Krsna.
The paramahamsa babaji said to him, “We are now fortunate, for a descendant
Oh, so this is descendant.
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of the Canda Kazi who received the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu has come to
visit us. Please give your mercy to us.” The kazi then said, “It is by the mercy of Lord
Caitanya Mahaprabhu that I have received the mercy of the Vaisnavas. Lord Caitanya is
the master of my life. I do not do anything without first offering my dandavat obeisances to
Him.”
Lahiri Mahasaya was fluent in the language of the Muslims. He had studied the Koran
and also man books of the sufis. To the kazi he addressed this question: “What is your idea of
liberation?”
Because now you are going to have a dialogue between, you are dealing with basically
your sanatana-dharma, your sadhana-bhakti, and now you are comparing it to someone else’s
practice. So here is he is starting from the last question, the goal. There is five questions,
who is God, what’s the living entity, what’s the material world, then what’s the relationship
between those three. Fourth one is what is your process of elevation, and fifth being
elevated what does that mean, what do you obtain, and then what’s your relationship with
Godhead after that. So he started with the last one, what is your concept of liberation.
The kazi replied, “Where you use the word ‘jiva’ (individual spirit soul), we use the word
‘ru’. The ru has two states of existence: 1. ru-mujarradi and 2. ru-tarkibi. What you call ‘cit’
(spirit) we call ‘mujarrad’. What you call ‘acit’ (matter) we call ‘jisam’. The spiritual world
(mujarrad) is beyond material time. The material world (jisam) is subject to time’s control.
The ‘tarkibi-ru’ or ‘baddha-jiva’ (conditioned soul), is filled with material desires. His mind
is filled with material ideas. The ‘mujarrad-ru’ (liberated soul) is pure and free from these
contaminations. A person who says, ‘alam misal’ (I am spirit) is able to become a ‘mujarradi-
ru’ (liberated soul). By the gradual development of ‘esk’ (spiritual love) the ‘ru’ (soul)
becomes purified. A great saint goes to the abode of God. He does not stay in the material
world. In that spiritual world he is the servant and God is the master. The soul and God
have that relationship eternally. The attainment of that pure relationship with God is called
liberation. The sufis explain the Koran in that way, but not everyone is able to understand
this explanation. By the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Canda Kazi understood this
and taught this to me. In that way I know that you are all pure devotees of the Lord.
So in other words, they have the concepts but they don’t know how to put them
together. That’s there in any religion or any philosophy, they have elements and they are
dealing with some aspect of substance, but unfortunately they don’t necessarily know how to
put them together, how to combine them, how to understand them, or what’s the balance.
So here it’s that the Chand Kazi understood, so he then gave this to his descendants. And in
this way then he is able to understand Lord Caitanya’s philosophy within his own teachings.
Lahiri Mahasaya: What is the teaching that is at the root of the Koran?
Now you have gone to the scripture because that’s the base. Because liberation is going
to be your end, your goal, but then all these five questions are going to be based on scripture.
So now in that scripture what’s the essence, because there should be some connection
between that essence and that liberation.
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Kazi: There are many teachings in the Koran. I cannot single out a particular kind of
worship to tell you. However, the purpose of life is to worship God. When they see the
supremely blissful Supreme God, all people become plunged into transcendental bliss. Lord
Caitanya has explained in this way.
Means in other words, this particular detail that is there most will discuss on that, but he
is asking what is actually, what’s the root, what’s the essence, so he says there is so many
different details but Lord Caitanya has explained that seeing the Supreme Personality of
Godhead then everybody becomes satisfied. So the purpose of life is to worship that person.
So seeing Him you are attracted, so you worship Him, and you come to that state of
liberation meaning you are in an eternal relationship with the Lord as His servant. So
sambandha, abhidheya, prayojana have been described with their basis in scripture. So these
few sentences is complete, everything has been said. Then more than this will be expansion.
So now he is going to take a point here again.
Lahiri Mahasaya: How does the Koran describe the form of God?
Kazi: The Koran says that God has no form. However, Lord Caitanya told the Canda
Kazi that the meaning of these words of the Koran is that God has no material form. The
Koran does not mean to say that God does not have a spiritual form. The prophet himself
saw the form of God, which is filled with transcendental love. He also described all the rasas,
but only in a concealed way.
So here Lord Caitanya is saying what’s happening, because you have to understand,
somebody who is so powerful that can establish such kind of religions and stuff like this they
are actual messengers. So they know what they are saying. Like Bhavisya Purana says about
Christ, it’s he himself practiced religion but preached subreligion. In other words, religion is
on the third level of consciousness but if you are talking to people on the first level then to
get some out of the first you talk second. Therefore be good be nice, turn the other cheek, all
this that. That is upadharma, it’s not full religion. Full religion is what is the nature of the
soul, what is the nature of a living entity in their position, what’s the nature of society,
what’s the nature of all this. So there is only so much you can preach. So he would preach
subreligion though he himself was practicing.
So here then Lord Caitanya is indicating Bhaktivinoda Thakura is saying that
Mohammed also understood true religion but he has to preach according to who he is
dealing with. So he teaches what he can. So he says but they misunderstand. But the idea is
that they book is there, he is explaining it to the people, they should catch it. They don’t
catch it, that’s a loss.
Lahiri Mahasaya: What do the sufis say?
About the form of God.
Kazi: their philosophy is ‘anal hak’, which means “I am God”. In this way the philosophy
of the Vedic impersonalists and the Muslim sufis is the same.
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Lahiri Mahasaya: Are you a sufi?
Kazi: No. I am a pure devotee. I have surrendered my life to Lord Caitanya.
Thus talking about many things, the saintly kazi and the Vaisnavas treated each other
with great respect. Finally the meeting ended with a great chanting of the holy names of
Lord Hari.
So here you see that there is a difference here, one is alam misal and the other is anal
hak, so alam misal means I am spirit, so I am not this body, I am servant of God, so that
means they are coming to this mujarrad-ru, so he comes to the transcendental platform, the
constitutional position of the soul. So he is not the ru-tarkibi, the conditioned nature of the
soul, so that’s very clear. But then he is saying here the sufis which talk so many nice fine
subtleties but they are kind of like the jnanis of their line, they are actually the
impersonalists, because they ultimately say that. At the same time, they are condemned in
their own faith as being sahajiyas basically. Now that’s karma, right? You are an
impersonalist but they insult you by calling you a sahajiya. What to do?
In other words, any religion will have these essential teachings, you can take anything
and do it. But it’s just like you can take the Bible and you can explain it according to Krsna
consciousness. But much of the things is so hidden why would we use that? You want to
discuss it with someone who that is their scripture then fine. But in presenting Krsna
consciousness we’ll use Gita, because it’s so clearly and directly explained. You understand
that then you’ll understand what it is saying in any other scripture. But we don’t get our
authority because it says so in the Bible. It says so in the Gita. (end of lecture)
Devotee (4): It’s interesting even though Mohammed preached subreligious principles Kazi
was able to accept higher principles because of being helped by Lord Caitanya.
Maharaja: It’s even said, Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that all the sampradayas are able to find
their conclusions through Lord Caitanya’s. Because that is our point, getting to the essence.
Devotee (4): But that’s sampradaya he is really a Vaisnava, but he admits subreligious…
Maharaja: It’s subreligious but it’s based on religious principles. That’s the thing, because
religion comes from God. That’s why Lord Caitanya can so calmly say this is what
Mohammed was meaning, because He is Mohammed’s servant, He is not someone else’s. But
they don’t understand that element that they are all representing God in different times,
places, for different people, so that’s your method.
Devotee (4): The Kazi is very comfortable in his own tradition, he follows his own
tradition…he has understanding…
Maharaja: Means it’s not a problem to do that. It’s just like if we had a choice we’d choose
this, it’s so much more straight-forward. But it’s not a problem actually. So it’s just like I
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think I have heard of one in Ireland and I think there is one other, full on ordained priest
that has a parish but he chants 16 rounds, reads Gita, and does things like this.
Devotee (4): We have two Vaisnavas, one nun in South America, she goes to mangala-
aratika, she dresses the deities everything in Vaisnava dress and then finish the morning
program she puts on your nun…go back to the monastery. She is initiated.
Maharaja: Yes, so it’s not a problem. So they’ll just adjust things. I mean in there they may
not, they may adjust their diet and stuff like that. But those things aren’t against their own
principles. It’s not against Christianity to be a vegetarian or not take alcohol, in fact, it’s
recommended. In the monasteries there is a quota that the monks can have of alcohol. But
it’s considered that if you don’t take that it’s more pious. But if you take it, ok, but it’s
regulated, you only get this much.
Devotee (4): Prabhupada has said a cup of wine after the meals is good for digestion, hasn’t
started Prabhupada had traveling to Italy.
Maharaja: No, that’s the principle, they found it through their tamasic system what works.
Because you don’t need a glass, you need only a tablespoon. That’s all that’s required for the
digestion. More than that’s a little bit beyond. These things are there. They found… their
way. Just like there is no bitter in their diet but they find it by, when they are young cafe
latte this that, but when they get older it’s just straight caffe, but it’s bitter, so it actually
helps the liver. At the same time, the other effects have other side things. In other words,
within their culture they find what works if there is some tradition. You give up tradition
then they lose all those things. Salad they use, this rocket which is bitter. So every culture in
its traditional thing has something bitter in it though you never think of it as actually a
preparation, means someone from another culture doesn’t eat that. The Indian you have
your curry’s this that, they don’t think it’s sukta. So in the same way, these kind of things
they are just ethnic, they are local, people eat like that. But outside of that generally people
don’t.
So it’s every culture everything has all the elements that are necessary but they don’t see
it in connection with God. So in this way then the tradition gets lost. It’s nice but then
because people don’t actually know why and all that it’s been disconnected from the Veda
for so long and disconnected from Krsna consciousness they can’t explain it, so it changes.
Because people want answers, they’ll think and this and that, so they question, so if you
have no answer it will change. So the idea is one should be educated in one’s tradition and
philosophy so it can be explained and it doesn’t change. That’s the idea of the Vedic
education you are actually trained in the culture and philosophy. Then the culture
continues. The modern is everybody has got their own idea, because the previous generation
can’t explain why they are doing it. Means the present day generation is rebelling against
yesterday’s generation saying because they can’t explain it. But tomorrow that generation
will rebel against today’s generation because they can’t explain it. It’s just how they feel,
they feel like doing this. Their parents didn’t feel like doing that. That’s all. Their kids won’t
feel like doing it either.
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It’s just like this song in one of these political cartoons and it had, it was set back kind of
like the hippies and it had two parents in their hippie outfit and they have this picture on
the wall some guru, incense is burning, they got their beads, and then their kid walks in and
he has got nicely properly combed and dun hair and he is wearing a suit and everything
very, very proper, and then the parents are looking at each other and going where did we go
wrong? So like that it’s just that’s the way because they can’t explain.
So the rebelling is because there is no knowledge. If there is knowledge why would
someone rebel? Because they are looking for answers. You have answers why rebel, you just
learn. But you rebel because there is no knowledge, there is no training, at the same time,
there is an insistence you have to do this. But why should I do this? So it has to be explained.
So from that then that’s the point that explanation is what is actually the life of it. The siksa
is the life. We see that certain persons have that, so then they can practice whatever their
situation. The Kazi is not trying to say this is more important, it’s just that’s his tradition
that he is living in, so there is not a problem. But if you make a philosophy out of it that’s a
problem. That becomes a problem.
It’s like you want to wear karmi clothes and do this and that, fine, do it. Why do you
have to make a philosophy out of it? You are uncomfortable, just say that. But that would
then sound like it’s not spiritual, and you want to be known as a spiritual person, so
therefore you won’t say it like that. You have to cover it up.
The guy has to leave and go home because he is attached to his wife and family but he
can’t say that. He’ll just say, oh, you guys are fanatic, I got this and that, you just do this all
day, I got to deal with the real world. They have to say stuff like that just for their false ego.
And it just creates bad feelings, they get no benefit, the devotees get no benefit, it
creates…us and them. But if the guy says I got to go now, if I don’t go the wife is going to
create a problem and then like this and that, then everybody understands. Ok, he may be
known as he is a bit henpacked, but that’s part for the course. But it’s straight-forward, it’s
honest. And then he can work for that, because in that honest position then he can be
Krsna conscious. But from the other position that he is dealing with the real world, that
attitude he’ll never become Krsna conscious in this way. His sadhana may bear fruit, but his
grhastha asrama will never actually bear any spiritual fruit. And so it’s all attitude.
And then he wonders why his kids have attitude. He is like, oh, you guys are fanatic.
And then his kids are, oh, you guys are fanatic. And then he is thinking why are they
different? I am Krsna conscious, why aren’t my kids taking it? What’s wrong with the
process? No, they are just like you. They are just becoming exactly like you. You rebel
against the temple, you see that as authority, they rebel against you, they see you as
authority. You say they are fanatic, they say you are fanatic. It’s parampara. But they don’t
see it. So the thing is it’s not a thing to do, you just do it. So if it’s favorable it works. If it’s
not favorable why bother?
The devotees live in the temple they cut their hair. Devotees are outside at their job
what does it matter, they can keep their hair, don’t keep their hair, if it works. If they have
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conviction it doesn’t matter. Nowadays bold head everybody has got one. So it’s like it’s not
a big deal any more. But before maybe it was.
But like that these things are so simple, they are not the big deal, but symptoms of
misunderstanding, misjudging, we make a big deal out of things that aren’t a big deal. Lord
Caitanya wear a peacock feather, does Balarama wear a peacock feather? They are no deal,
they are not a discussion. But we make them into a discussion. It’s just not something, who
cares? Little things like this we make it into something big. But it’s not important.
So in the same way, we miss the point. So therefore we are not able to balance the
material and spiritual. Someone who knows the essence is able to. So whatever their
situation they can balance it. Because the point is to become God conscious. And so if they
do it being a nun, fine. So if it fully absorbed in Krsna, go back to Godhead. If not, then
probably take birth in a situation where they’ll be more close. It just depends on what they
want.
Devotee (4): It makes sense.
Maharaja: That’s the nice thing about our philosophy, it makes sense. So it really makes
sense. Like you said, it’s not fanatic. Devotees say we are fanatic, no, we are not. Somebody
may have a fanatic mentality but that’s them. But Krsna consciousness is not fanatic. It’s
just the natural order. It’s the universal religion. That’s the meaning, jaiva-dharma, the
universal religion, it is, it can be explained to anybody, anybody can follow it. That’s the
thing.
Devotee (4): Bhaktivinoda purposely brings in the Moslem into the picture so he can…
Maharaja: He’ll bring in everybody.
Devotee (4): …into the picture so he can.
Devotee (5): One of my friends told me according to Bible, Gita, Koran, who is best?
Maharaja: …So there is four choices here, but actually you have already answered your
question. Because you have said, you have Gita, you have Bible, you have Koran, but then
you have said who is best? …But now it’s just a matter of defining this who. Is that an
individual, is that a band? What is this who?
Devotee (5): I can’t give the answer to this…
Maharaja: Gita is direct. The truth that are found in the Bible and in the Koran will be
more clearly presented, directly presented in Gita. It’s not that one is better than the other,
it’s just it’s a matter of the clearness of the explanation. It’s just a higher study.
Devotee (4): Bible…dictionaries.
Maharaja: Yes, dictionaries. You have big dictionaries like a college dictionary and you have
a high school dictionary. So which is better? They are both bona fide. But the college will
explain more and deeper.
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Devotee (6): In Caitanya-caritamrta Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that the Koran was full of
mistakes.
Maharaja: That’s there, but the point is the mistakes whether He is meaning that its
composition has mistakes or the people’s misunderstandings or their interpretation there is
mistakes. So if you are saying that the Koran says God has no form and you mean that He
doesn’t in any sphere have a form, then your interpretation is a mistake. Now whether you
are saying the Koran itself has a mistake, but it’s more is your interpretation.
Devotee (6): I thought He meant in that way.
Maharaja: The book itself?
Devotee (6): Yes.
Maharaja: That’s not actually an important element.
Devotee (4): In some details maybe…
Maharaja: Because he never also knows what’s their tradition of handing it down. Christians
have no problem in just printing a new edition. There is no like that. Moslems I don’t know
what their tradition. Jews it has to be exact letter. One letter at a time you copy it. They are
more careful that there is no change. How exactly that’s met, the point is what is it
teaching, what are you trying to get to. In other words, by following the directive of God,
following what He recommends that’s how you are going to be elevated, that’s how you are
going to perfect yourself. So that’s the essential point and everything else is a detail. (end)
March 9, 2010
Maharaja:
Chapter Six
Eternal Religion and the Differences of Caste
(Nitya-dharma o jati-varnadi-bheda)
Devidasa Vidyaratna was a teacher. For many days he had complete faith that the
brahmanas were the best of all castes. He thought, “None but the brahmanas could
understand the spiritual goal of life. Without first taking birth in a brahmana family no one
can attain liberation. It is by birth that one becomes a brahmana”. When he heard the
conversation the Vaisnavas had with Canda Kazi’s descendant, he became very disgusted.
He could not enter into an understanding of the truths explained by the saintly kazi. In his
mind he thought, “The Yavana caste certainly acts strangely. No one can understand the
meaning of what they say. Ah well, father could read Persian and Arabic. He has spend
many days studying religion. But why does he respect the Yavanas so? In that assembly why
did Vaisnava dasa and the paramahamsa babaji show so much respect to a Yavana, whose
contaminating touch makes one take a bath?”
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That night he said, Sambhu, with the fire of logic I will burn the philosophy of the
offenders into ashes. It was in Navadvipa that Sarvabhauma and Siromani discussed the
nyaya-sastra.
Because in nyaya then we have that this system nava-nyaya that’s actually from
Navadvipa. Your traditional Gautama nyaya that’s there, it has the formulas and everything
like this. But then they developed the nava-nyaya which was a more refined, more subtle
form of the logic. With that you could beat the standard nyaya. So most of the schools
nowadays they use this nava-nyaya. So then Sarvabhauma and Siromani they were like the
leaders in this.
It was in Navadvipa that Raghunatha churned the twenty eight truths from the smrti-
sastras. How can Hindus and Yavanas mingle together in this same Navadvipa? Perhaps the
teachers of Navadvipa do not understand how they should act. In one or two days this
Vidyaratna will do something to set this situation right.”
So he had heard the philosophy, understood how broad it was, but then somehow or
another the he makes the mistake of thinking that it’s due to the bodily situation. So you
can say it’s correct that this philosophy can be understood only by brahmanas, but devotees
are automatically brahmanas. So in other words, if one can understand it, that makes one by
understanding, by mentality brahmana. So it’s not a matter of birth, it’s not the body that
creates it. That may be a situation in which one will be more inclined towards these things
because that’s what is going on. You hear these things more. In a brahmana’s house they will
discuss sastra, you’ll hear it, you’ll live the lifestyle. While if it’s not, it may be less. So it’s a
good opportunity, but it’s not the body that makes the brahmana.
Nine hours had passed. Covered by the malice of clouds, the sun had not yet been able
to glance upon the earth. At dawn it rained with thudding sounds of “dipdip”. During the
twelfth half-hour Devi and Sambhu ate kichari. The Vaisnavas were delayed in their
madhukari begging for alms. By the time the third three hour watch had passed all the
Vaisnavas had honored prasadam. Now they stayed in one part of the malati and madhavi
vine terrace and chanted the holy names on their beads.
So they are going by praharas. Praharas are a group of three hours. So in this is then in
the first then that’s your early morning, then that’s always spiritual activities. After that is
other activities, studying and this that, going for begging, these kind of things. But because
of the rain, because it rained in the second prahara, they couldn’t go out begging. So it
wasn’t till they finished of the third prahara, which means three in the afternoon, that then
everybody had done their begging, taking prasada, doing whatever they were going to do.
Devotee (1): On what level of advancement a devotee is automatically a brahmana?
Maharaja: At what level of advancement is a devotee automatically a brahmana? Basically
when he accepts Krsna consciousness.
Devotee (1): A neophyte also?
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Maharaja: Neophyte also. The point is brahmana means what? Brahmana means one who is
interested in Brahman. A brahmana means one who practices the lifestyle of Brahman.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada says a brahmana is one who knows Brahman.
Maharaja: Yes, one who knows Brahman. So Krsna is Brahman. So a devotee knows Krsna,
so therefore he is brahmana.
Devotee (1): How many knowledge…
Maharaja: How many knowledge? He knows Krsna is God, he knows I am His servant, he
knows the process is chanting Hare Krsna. So that makes him a brahmana. Now within
brahmana you may have different levels, but he is within that category. Because the point of
the sastra is to know Krsna. That’s the point, there is not another point. The point is to
know Krsna. So when that is understood, then that means one has obtained that platform.
Now what degree your realization is within that that’s another thing.
So when we say neophyte, madhyama, and uttama, we are talking within the category of
devotee, so they are automatically brahmana, but there is levels within that. It’s not that
neophytes outside that circle or things like that, because technically if the neophyte is
outside that circle why would the madhyamas associate with them?
Devotee (1): To give him mercy.
Maharaja: To give him mercy, but why would you associate with non-devotees? You may
preach to him, but why would you live them, why would you eat with them? You go out on
the street do harinama, distribute books, you don’t go out there and live with them.
So in other words, one has to be very, very careful because how do you define neophyte,
how do you define madhyama? It’s based on how much faith is there in the chanting. That’s
the point. So they have the lifestyle of a brahmana, they may or may not be brahmana by
occupation, that’s a different thing, but they are brahmana by understanding, that’s the
most important. The brahminical occupation won’t take you back to Godhead. The proper
understanding of devotion to the Lord that will take you back to Godhead. And then with
that mentality one engages any of the four varnas or asramas in the Lord’s service. So that
you are doing it for pleasing the Lord, that’s brahminical. That’s why the Vedic culture is
called brahminical culture. But it has four orders, not just brahmanas. But it’s considered
brahminical because it’s all for the purpose of Brahman.
So Devidasa here is a brahmana who knows all the sastras, he is a teacher in nyaya, but
he is not a devotee. So it shows that it’s not the external brahminical qualifications that
make one a devotee, it’s the actual understanding. But we see that the Vaisnavas live that
brahminical lifestyle, what Vaisnava dasa and paramahamsa babaji they are living a
brahminical lifestyle what a brahmana would do. He is not complaining about their lifestyle,
Devidasa, he is complaining that they are extending their respect to the yavanas. That’s his
complaint, not that, oh, they get up early in the morning and take their bath, brush their
teeth, and chant their mantras, he is not complaining about that. So that’s the same. So all
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devotees live the brahminical lifestyle but they may or may perform brahminical activities as
their occupation how they maintain themselves. Someone may work, someone has a
business, whatever it is that they do. It’s two different things.
The paramahamsa babaji, Vaisnava dasa, pandita Ananta dasa, who had just come from
Nrsimha-palli, Lahiri Mahasaya, and Yadava dasa from Kuliya were happily chanting the
holy names on their tulasi beads. At that time Vidyaratna Mahasaya, Caturbhuja Padaratna
from Samudragara, Cintamani Nyayaratna from Varanasi, Kalidasa Vasaspati from
Purvasthali, and the famous pandita Krsna Cudamani all came there. The Vaisnavas very
respectfully offered sitting places to their brahmana pandita guests.
So who came there was this Vidyaratna he brought all these other great panditas from
the area to discuss these points.
The paramahamsa babaji said, “it is said that a day overcast with clouds is a bad day
indeed. However, for us it has become a good day, for many learned panditas who live in
holy places have mercifully placed the dust of their feet in my cottage.
Prabhupada mentions that place where the sun doesn’t shine some time during the day,
it’s just always overcast, that place is condemned. So the standard thing is the sun will be
out, clouds will come, it will rain, the clouds will go away, the sun will be shining again.
Otherwise if it’s more than that, then generally that means there is something wrong. So we
have these places where for six months, nine months, it’s just clouds and no sun, there is
something wrong there.
Because they were naturally humbler than a blade of grass, the Vaisnavas, saying, “We
offer our respectful obeisances to the brahmanas”, bowed down to offer their respects.
Thinking themselves very learned and important, the brahmanas responded by offering
blessings.
So this element of offering respects then that’s a standard thing. Here it is they are
Vaisnavas, so they are going to see brahmanas, brahmanas are to be respected, sannyasis are
to be respected, so they have no problem in offering their respects to the brahmanas. Like
Prabhupada said even the Mayavadi sannyasis, the ones proper Sankara sannyasis, they are
properly initiated into the sannyasa order, that we have to offer our obeisances to them,
because they are actually sannyasis. Sannyasis are respected. So in the same way, brahmanas
are respected, so bona fide brahmanas are respected, because the position is respected. Now
what is the particular personal development of that individual, that’s another thing, that
can then be discussed, and then you either may be further or not further respect offered.
The king is respected, it doesn’t matter who he is. The king, he is respected. Now the
king if he has good character he may be respected more. If he doesn’t have a good character,
then one doesn’t. Only the position of the king is there. But personally you don’t offer any
more respect.
So you always have to be able to deal with these dual aspects. That’s what makes the
Vedic culture so different, so special is that you can accommodate many, many things at
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once. So in other words, the position of the person, then there is a particular personal
advancement of the person, both of these are seen. So one can’t be disrespectful because you
don’t like the person, the position still has to be respected. So here then that’s going on.
So these brahmanas thought they were very special, so even though these paramahamsas
who are so far beyond them in realization are offering obeisances, they are giving their
blessings and everything.
Vidyaratna had invited them there for a great debate. Because they were all younger
than him, the brahmanas bowed down before Lahiri Mahasaya. Because he now understood
the real truth, Lahiri Mahasaya at once reciprocated by bowing down before the brahmanas.
Because the brahmanas didn’t bow down back which technically socially they don’t have
to. But we see that Lahiri Mahasaya because he understood because all living entities are
servants of the Lord, therefore then he is offering his obeisances also. Because it says he
understood the real truth, while these others don’t.
Among these panditas, Krsna-Cudamani was the most eloquent. In Varanasi, Mithila,
and many other places he had defeated many panditas with the great power of his logic. He
was short, splendidly dark, and grave. His eyes glistened like two stars. It was he who began
the discussion with the Vaisnavas.
So it means one should also be very eloquent in one’s speech, it should be it’s sweet,
though he is very strong in debate but he speaks very nicely, so that will be the cultured
standard, rather than just being rough.
He said, “Saying amongst ourselves, ‘Today we shall see the Vaisnavas’, we have now
come here. We do not think everything you do is very good, but still we think your single-
pointed devotional service is very good indeed.
In other words, that someone is focused that’s good, because unless one is focused one
can’t get anything done. So the Vedic literatures don’t recommend that one is not focused.
In other words, whatever you are going to do, do it with full commitment. You may agree
with or not agree with what someone does, but you have to appreciate that they are focused
if that his quality is there.
It’s just like you have a very deterimined businessman you have to respect that focus,
that determination, that effort, that has to be there. So when dealing with that person you
can’t just say, oh, here is a businessman. You have to say, here is someone who is focused.
That’s respected. You may or may not like his business practices but you have to respect his
focus. Because it’s only by one-pointedness that you go back to Godhead.
So the person has a guru, ok, maybe their guru is bogus, but the principle that they
accept guru that’s good. So you don’t throw that out. You just try to show them that
basically accept a proper guru. They have some regulation in their life, that’s good. So they
are careful about these things. So that should be respected. So these things are seen then it
actually makes preaching so much easier. Because then you have something to work with. If
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you don’t respect the person you are talking to, why are you talking to him? Why do you
preach to someone you don’t respect? So there must be something there you respect. Then
taking that that’s what you are going to relate to the person on. They are focused, then
that’s good, that focus. But now getting that focus means they have an identity, and that
focus they are making an effort, and with that focus because of that they are getting a result.
Now so much effort do they only want a temporary result? That same focus if applied with
proper understanding gives you an eternal result. So now someone of that focus is
intelligent, now wouldn’t it be more intelligent therefore to apply whatever they are doing
in connection with Krsna consciousness?
Because their identification is a businessman or their business techniques, or their goal
of getting lots of money and influence, then that’s nice, but the point is it’s only going to
give a temporary result. So if they see they are servant of Krsna and they are using as a
medium the business then that works fine. Then they are getting the results. And how is
that going to be connected to the Supreme? How is that going to be used? So you have
something to talk on. You think, where am I going to find the common point to talk about
here? And the point is how much can you talk New Age to someone? How many people are
really into the touchy feely New Agey speak nice and all soft, how many people are into
that? And then they are into that in the yoga studio and when they walk out of the yoga
studio they are again cut-throat business people, they are professionals.
So therefore you can talk all nice but what are they going to take away with them? Ok, it
makes them feel good. But then it’s only an experience of feeling good. But do they connect
that feel good because it’s Krsna or just because you used all the terminology that they liked?
So that’s not the common ground, you think it’s a common ground, no, the common ground
is the qualities that the Vedas recommend. They are professional means they have
knowledge, they have focus, they have determination, they have an identity, they are not
mental like the common person. A common person gets nowhere, why? Because he has no
real strong identity. He doesn’t know who he is or if he can do stuff. He has confidence, the
normal person doesn’t have confidence, that’s why they lead in the world. It’s that simple.
So you start from there, they respect that, that’s what they are looking for, they associate
with other people like that. Why is it that people in the yoga studio are just broad all
different varieties of people from the society? No, it’s a particular group. They like that
group, and they have a common interest of that. They also go down to the Spa and the same
people are there, but now for the Spa, they go to the gym, the same people are there, they go
out to their particular nightclub, the same people are there. So they are there that’s just one
thing they do, but they are there with these other professionals. So they are not there
because you are there talking all this New Agey stuff. That’s not why they are. They are
there because they like being in that association, and this is one thing they do in that
association. That’s not the thing they do in that association. So if you don’t recognize who
they are how do preach to them? So these are the things.
And here this is someone who is not specifically a devotee, just a brahmana, good at
logic, and they know you have to recognize these things. If you want to defeat somebody you
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have to speak in a language they understand. You talk something they don’t understand how
do you defeat them? In other words, you have to talk to them with their examples, then they
are convinced. So it’s a very, very important aspect of preaching.
We say yukta-vairagya, but what is that yukta-vairagya based on? It’s based on what
qualities the person has, so therefore those are what you discuss. We have given that
example many times. Prabhupada is talking with this famous English race car driver. So he
doesn’t say, oh, this is all maya. He talked cars. But he is a professional, he talks on that
level. And so then from there he finds some point to bring Krsna out, so they had common
ground based on qualities, appreciation and all these different things. Subtle points.
That’s why the Vaisnavas had no problem with the Kazi. The Kazi is focused on God, he
understands the essence of the Vedic literatures, maybe not so much detail, maybe not so
much detail in his practice, but he understands the principle. Therefore that’s respected,
they have common ground.
So the point is as we said anyting that works in this world is because it’s based on the
Veda. So that means anybody who is successful in anything, they are doing something,
having a quality, performing an action, striving after a goal, that’s actually mentioned in the
Veda though they don’t understand it, it’s inconsistent, they use this part from the Veda
and that part from the Veda and this part, so it’s not consistent. So depending on how
consistent it is, how much they use this focus, endeavor, and depending upon the Supreme,
then they are going to get a result.
Devotee (2): Kazi, is he accepted as a Vaisnava?
Maharaja: With this understanding yes.
Devotee (2): But in the eyes of these smartas he is not brahmana.
Maharaja: Who?
Devotee (2): Kazi.
Maharaja: Kazi, not at all.
Devotee (2): So how to put it together that…?
Maharaja: It’s like asking…
Devotee (2): But he doesn’t have a brahminical behavior.
Maharaja: The point is in understanding is brahminical. So the ideal is the understanding
and the lifestyle match, so some degree, means his decisions in life and what he does is going
to be adjusted by his God consciousness. But certain details aren’t going to be there. But
that’s the point if we worry about those details, then we miss the point, what do we look at,
do we look at those aspects, well, he is a yavana so therefore his lifestyle is different, or that
he accepts God, he accepts Lord Caitanya, he accepts the chanting of Hare Krsna? Where
do we start?
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Devotee (2): The last one.
Maharaja: Yes, but that’s where we start from. Otherwise if we don’t do that, then unknown
to yourself you are going to do that with the devotees. Oh, he just stands on the side in
mangala-arati he doesn’t dance, so actually he is not advanced. Oh, he does this. Oh, he is
involved in management and all the politics, so he is not advanced. Everybody is going to
have their idea of what is advancement, and if you fit it you are advanced, you don’t fit it
you are not advanced.
I have seen so many times people come to me, oh, they have heard, ok, the swami talks
on this and that, they ask me a question I give them an answer, because it wasn’t the answer
they expected, it comes from such a different perspective, it’s suddenly they are completely
disturbed. Because they have an idea of how I am going to talk, how I am going to present it.
And so they go away then, this guy has got problems. Not because of what I said, because I
didn’t fit the external form that they wanted.
So that’s the problem, you’ll only find consistency if it’s what is behind that, why is that
being done.
Devotee (2): How to put it together with the statements in Manu-samhita brahmanas who
do not follow their occupation, they are fallen, they should not be touched.
Maharaja: They should not be touched? Where does it say this in Manu?
Devotee (2): In the Second Chapter.
Maharaja: Second Chapter, no, what is it saying in the Second Chapter? In the Second
Chapter then Manu is saying that those brahmanas who don’t accept the scriptures…
Devotee (2): Also…
Maharaja: No, the authority of the scriptures, you don’t marry into those families, you don’t
be intimate with them. It doesn’t say that they are not respected as brahmanas. It just says
that you don’t get very close to those kind of brahmanas.
Devotee (2): …samskaras.
Maharaja: Samskaras, yes.
Devotee (2): They don’t follow. So they are like outcaste.
Maharaja: There is a difference between an outcaste and a brahmana who is not necessarily
following. But you have to define what does it mean of their being outcaste, on what point.
Manu goes through great detail to explain what exactly is wrong. It’s not that one thing is
wrong you throw the whole thing out. Manu also mentions that a king will never corporally
or capitally punish a brahmana no matter what he has done.
So you have to understand why would they go to such detail to get down to the different
kinds of sin, that they are going to discuss down to what is the difference between them.
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You are saying an outcaste but what is this outcasteness? What is that? You are saying they
don’t follow, but what didn’t they follow? Give an example. What is he saying?
Devotee (2): He is saying about samskaras.
Maharaja: He is saying about samskaras. Yes. But what is it specifically, what is the topic at
that point in Manu? The topic is who you learn the Veda from, who do you learn dharma
from, who do you learn samskaras from. You learn from a brahmana who he was born into
that. He was conceived by garbhadana. He grew up and ideally this particular part of India
where is the strongest brahminical culture, but if not then a little bit back from there, but if
not at least in Aryavarta, so like this this is at least what you should do. That’s the topic.
The topic is not whether they are an outcaste or not. That’s in the Tenth Chapter. That’s
where it’s discussed.
You have to be very, very careful. If you are going to touch Manu you better make sure
you do it right, because you are dealing with material knowledge. You get it wrong, you are
wrong.
Devotee (2): Therefore I am asking.
Maharaja: You have to be very, very careful. So you have to see what is the topic and then
take that, see it in that context. Because he is not describing sankara, that’s described later.
He is not discussing about the anuloma and pratiloma, that’s not what he is discussing.
In other words, the point of there in the chapter is a brahmana who is not strictly
following his brahminical practices then you wouldn’t accept him as your priest, you
wouldn’t accept him as your teacher, you wouldn’t marry into their families. That’s all. But
it’s not saying, he should not be respected as a brahmana this that, it doesn’t say that
anywhere, there is no place where Manu says that. So that’s why you have to see Manu in
relationship to the teachings that Prabhupada gives. It can’t stand on its own.
Devotee (2): I am just wondering what there will come out they have some objections
against Kazi, or?
Maharaja: That let them speak for themselves. You don’t have to put ideas into their heads.
They are mundane enough, they are quite good at it, so you don’t have to, means you don’t
have to feel compassion towards them that you have to help them in their endeavor.
We do not think everything you do is very good, but still we think your single-pointed
devotional service is very good indeed. The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself has
said (Bhagavad-gita 9.30):
“Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional
service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.”
I think that answers your question right there. And he is presenting that as a platform.
You are thinking that they will use this that this is what they are going to argue on. No, he
is saying here they are properly situated. So they are starting there. This is the most expert
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use of nyaya. You already start on pointing out the other person’s side, show who they are,
glorify them, show them their method, show them their goals, so that they go yes, you know
who I am and everything, and then you defeat that. Because otherwise you just come in and
just start saying this and that, they’ll say you don’t understand. So they come in and show I
perfectly understand.
When Prabhupada spoke to the caste Goswamis he first glorified brahmanas from the
sastra what is the position of brahmanas, everything from the sastra, and they were so
pleased. So then they know he knows what is a brahmana. Then he showed how then the
Vaisnava is beyond that. Otherwise it’s just here is brahmana, here is Vaisnavas. No, the
brahmana is here, we say that, then above that is Vaisnavas. Otherwise devotees tend to go,
oh, they are not brahmanas. Prabhupada said they are brahmanas and they must be
respected that way. Just brahmana is the first stage, then where you are knowledgeable in
that that’s the second stage, when you are a pandita, so these are panditas, this is the second
stage. Third stage is devotee.
“We offer our respectful obeisances to these words of Bhagavad-gita. Therefore I have
come here to see many saintly persons. However, we have another purpose also. It is this:
On the pretext of devotional service you associate with Yavanas. I want to talk with you
about that. One of you expert in debate should now please step forward.”
Now also here is a very good point, if you want to have a discussion especially if there is
something you don’t agree with then here is another showing the proper thing, he is
respecting that, he is giving the position, he is even showing the sastric position by which
the other side could be making their debate, and then having given that he is saying that
must be your thesis, but we don’t agree with that how you have interpreted it. In other
words, that’s correct but you are misapplying it. And so now here in one sentence he says his
thesis On the pretext of devotional service you associate with Yavanas. That means they know
what they are talking about. If they sit there for five minutes going on, well, you know and
then and then like this and but then why so then. All you have to do is add in some words
there and then you have the thing, but that’s what goes on. You hear a five minute question
it doesn’t take. If you can’t say it in one sentence you don’t know what you are talking
about. It’s that simple. So here it is one sentence, bang, here it is. Otherwise how are you
going to give that back? Otherwise then the answer to that question will be also another five
minutes, well, you know I mean I was and then he…
Hearing Cudamani’s words, the Vaisnavas became unhappy.
Because they don’t like to debate.
The saintly paramahamsa babaji said, “I am a fool. What do I know of debates? As great
saints have acted in a saintly way, so we also try to act. You please repeat the teachings of
the scriptures and we will listen in silence.”
He says, we don’t know anything, we are just trying to do what was right, the great
personalities have done this, we are doing that. So if you have a better, if you can teach us
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what is proper then you tell us from the scriptures what it is. And then after hearing that
then they’ll think, ok, they’ll say everything very clearly. Because if you are arguing you
come up with more stuff, while if you are teaching you are direct. So even you want to
debate you hear exactly what they want to say and then it’s very clear how to deal with it.
Otherwise they go on and on what they think you are going to say or what you have said. So
here then it’s like that.
So plus in the other way, what’s the point of fighting? Because they are going to say all
this stuff and unless they are offensive to the Supreme Lord and the devotees then they said
that’s their opinion, then they go away, and then they don’t come back. Because they
thought, ok, I have taught and so they go away. So it’s one of the ways you deal with the
fool. The fool you deal with by, he has his opinion, and you are demanding you listen to it,
you hear it, and you don’t say anything, and when he is finished, then haribol. And he goes
off thinking, yes, now they agree with me and all this. While if you argue with him, they are
too foolish to understand, so you don’t bother.
Cudamani said, “What kind of talks is this? If the Hindus do not understand the
scriptures, then the whole world will perish. You will act in a way that violates the scriptures
and then you will claim you are following the great saints.
So he is making the point of why one must know the scriptures, because one is doing,
one is following in the footsteps, but one must actually understand why. Otherwise it will
deviate, it will change. That’s just the nature of it.
What is this? Of what saints do you speak?
Because now he is going into detail. You said the saints do that, but what saints do this?
Because that’s the other point in a debate, someone makes a statement, and generally they
try to make a statement that is general enough that catches everything and they know what
they mean by. But then you have to ask it what do you mean by that. So as soon as that
comes up then they have to define. Then you start to see if they actually understand what
they are talking about or not. That’s the point.
If they are persons who follow the scriptures and teach the message of the scriptures,
then they are saints indeed. But if the people follow anyone and everyone, calling them all
great saints, and if they defend their actions by quoting the words ‘mahajano yena gatah sa
pantha’
That’s from Bhagavatam.
(one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate), then how can
there be any auspiciousness in this world?”
So they are saying one must know the scriptures, one must practice it. Remember who is
talking here, these are non-devotees, and they are saying that you have to follow scriptures,
these are straight materialists. But they are saying if it’s not according to scripture then it’s
useless.
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Hearing Cudamani’s words, the Vaisnavas assembled in one of the cottages to decide
what should be done.
Because it’s not a matter of emotion. He said this is what we have come for. So now you
send your man, and so then they discuss.
They came to this conclusion: When great saints are criticized, the Vaisnavas should, if
they are able, defend them in debate. The paramahamsa babaji did not participate in this
discussion. Although the pandita Ananta dasa Babaji had seen the farther shore of the
nyaya-sastra, everyone decided that Vaisnava dasa should argue in the debate.
The farther shore means it’s an ocean, any body of Vedic knowledge is an ocean. So if
you say someone has seen the farther shore means they know the whole ocean.
Everyone could understand that Devidasa Vidyaratna was the real cause of all this
trouble.
Because he had been there when they had talked with the Kazi.
Staying among them, Lahiri Mahasaya openly said, “Devi is very proud. His mind
became agitated when he saw us associating with the saintly kazi. That is why he has
brought all these panditas.” Taking the dust of the paramahamsa babaji’s feet, Vaisnava dasa
said, “I carry the Vaisnavas’ command upon my head. Today all my scholarship will be
successful.”
So he is accepted that he will do. Because he studied logic and everything before and he
was in the impersonalist school. But the point is he has come from that background, so then
naturally he will take this up as opposed to these other babajis. (end of lecture) (end)
March 11, 2010

Maharaja:
Taking the dust of the paramahamsa babaji’s feet, Vaisnava dasa said, “I carry the
Vaisnavas’ command upon my head. Today all my scholarship will be successful.”
By then all the clouds had gone. A sitting place was arranged in the grove of malati and
madhavi vines. On one side were the brahmana panditas and on the other were all the
Vaisnavas. All the Vaisnava panditas from Sri Godruma and Madhyadvipa came. Many
brahmanas and students from nearby also joined the meeting. It was not a small meeting.
On one side were a hundred brahmana panditas and on the other were two hundred
Vaisnavas. Ordered by the Vaisnavas, Vaisnava dasa Babaji peacefully sat in front. Then
something wonderful happened. When they saw it, the Vaisnavas happily shouted out the
holy name of Lord Hari. The wonderful event was this: a cluster of malati flowers
spontaneously fell on Vaisnava dasa’s head. The Vaisnavas said, “This is a sign of Lord
Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mercy.”
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On the other side Krsna-Cudamani turned up his nose and said, “You may think that,
but flowers will not do. The tree is known by its fruits.”
So they can’t see anything, they can’t appreciate. Because otherwise normally you think,
oh, ok, this is somebody special, somebody nice. Because they are defending their position,
their claim to fame is simply that they are born in brahmana families. Now these ones here
they are speaking are practicing nicely, they know the sastras, you could say they are good
brahmanas. But the problem is they are basing it on birth, not on actual qualification. So
then this is a problem that the Vaisnavas then one is brahmana simply because of
consciousness. This is a problem for them. Because then what is their position? They will
feel that nobody will care for us, anybody will become. But the point is it’s still by
consciousness, it’s still by qualification. So if they are qualified, great. But what it means if
simply by birth they are not a brahmana, they have to qualify themselves. While the
Vaisnavas have qualified themselves. So they don’t want to have to function on that. They
just want it automatic, because I am born then I don’t have to worry.
Without showing any pride, Vaisnava dasa declared, “Today’s meeting in Navadvipa is
just like a meeting in Varanasi. This is a source of great joy. Although I live in Bengal, I
stayed for a long time in Varanasi. There I studied and I also spoke in many meetings.
Therefore I am not accustomed to speak in Bengali. I wish that for today’s meeting the
questions and answers shall be in Sanskrit.
Ok, you guys are panditas, so we’ll speak in Sanskrit. Putting it there then, one is they
have to be very expert, because otherwise in Sanskrit unless they are fluent in it then they’ll
have to use their intelligence, while in Bengali they can use their emotions. So that’s one
aspect for that. But the other is he is just maybe not that confident to debate in Bengali, but
in any case it’s a really good, it merely puts him in a better position.
Although Cudamani had labored greatly in his scripture study, aside from memorizing
some verses he could not speak Sanskrit. Taken aback by Vaisnava dasa’s proposal, he said,
“Why? For a meeting in Bengal it is best to speak the Bengali language. I am not like the
panditas in the western provinces. I cannot speak Sanskrit.
So already you have dropped him a bit. So this is another thing, one may know so much
Sanskrit, it doesn’t mean one speaks it, which is not a problem, but in any case that is the
difference between like the traditional, the Vedic approach to studying Sanskrit and the
Western. The Western is it’s simply a grammatical study that’s done by memorizing a bunch
of basically charts that do the work for you. And then which of course takes a lot of
intelligence. But what the result is you don’t actually end up being able to speak Sanskrit.
While in India the traditional thing is you learn Sanskrit but through Sanskrit media. You
speak Sanskrit, that would be part of the whole process. So then as a living language then
you will be able to understand its nuances even more. If you only know it as a grammatical
system then you understand a lot, but some of the subtleties, some of the flavor will come
when there is an understanding of when one can speak it.
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Seeing this, everyone could understand the Cudamani was becoming afraid to debate
with Vaisnava dasa.
Because they are thinking, oh, the Vaisnavas know nothing. But this then the Vaisnava
comes forward and says, ok, let’s talk in Sanskrit.
Speaking together with one voice, everyone requested Vaisnava dasa Babaji to speak in
Bengali, and he agreed.
To start the debate, Cudamani asked, “Is caste eternal? Are the Yavanas and the Hindus
different castes? Does a Hindu fall down by associating with Yavanas?”
So he is trying to establish that caste is always present, yavanas and Hindus are eternally
different, and if the Hindu associates with the yavanas he falls from his position to that of
the yavanas. So that’s what he is trying to establish. But then the is mixing here the
principles of eternality of what the scripture gives and the position of an individual. They’ll
take it that’s eternal. No, the principle that there will always be brahmanas that’s eternal,
that always is there. But that the particular individual is always a brahmana, that’s not going
to happen. Otherwise then it won’t be birth, it will be the nature of the soul. But they are
taking the body. So the body is temporary. So therefore that aspect is temporary.
Vaisnava dasa answered, “In the nyaya-sastra it is said that caste is eternal. However, the
true difference is not seen among human beings born in different countries in different
situations. The real differences are birth as a cow, or a goat, or a human being. These are
real differences.”
So he is saying here, caste is eternal principle, but it’s not by the different kinds of
human beings, because any human being can take up the Vedic culture, it’s a matter of the
differences between humans and animals, because the animals cannot take up Krsna
consciousness.
So he is speaking in nyaya because in nyaya it will establish the definitions. Because
that’s important all the definitions have to be the same. So in nyaya then you have this one
book, it’s a small book, but everybody starts studying it when they study nyaya. Everybody
uses it because it breaks up everything basically in the creation into different groups and
then within that group you have so many divisions, and each of those divisions has a
definition. So then accepting that then it’s very easy to argue. The things are made in such a
way that from there then you can apply your philosophy, from there you can apply your
religion. They are just general definitions.
Like rock, it’s just some kind of formation of the energy that it comes out in this hard
form. So that definition everybody can accept. We haven’t defined a nature beyond that or
its usage or anything like that. So then everybody has this, when you say rock, everybody
knows what you mean. Otherwise someone says, I am a rock I am a, what is it, from the song,
whatever it is. Then it’s like, oh, what does he mean by rock there. Or the British say, yes,
she is a real brick, and you think, you don’t call ladies a brick. There they mean is it real
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solid and steady and you can count upon them. So there is a common definition, so they
don’t use these slang definitions.
Then Cudamani said, “Yes. What you say is true. Still, are the Hindus and the Yavanas
in different castes?”
Because the point is when you are debating the first thing is to get them to agree with
what you say. You have to have common points. Because if you immediately just jump in
and argue then the difficulty will come they will feel you don’t understand what they are
saying. But you first, you take that general definition because they can’t say it’s wrong. It’s
how they apply that general definition is the problem. But the general definition is the
same. Because then they’ll say, oh, we have the same knowledge we are just applying it
differently or seeing it differently. Otherwise in an argument if you think the other guy has
a completely different understanding then it makes it very easy to fight.
Vaisnava dasa replied, “Yes. In one sense there is a difference of caste, but that caste
distinction is not eternal. The human race is one. Difference of language, country,
garments, caste and the like are only imaginary differences.
You can say that they are different, yes, but those are illusory differences, these are just
coverings. They are speaking Bengali here, you go to the next state they speak Bouchpuri
(?), you go down from here then they speak Orissan or Assamese. So does that now mean
the soul is different, that caste? No. So these things are all just coverings. These are not the
serious things. So you can say, yes it is, but that’s the minor, it’s not the major. You are not
working on the eternal principles how God created the world, how the sastra defines, that’s
eternal, but these are temporary manifestations.
Cudamani: Are human beings different according to the differences of their birth? If
this is not so then is the difference between a Hindu and a Yavana only the difference of
their clothing and other external things?
So here he has made a point, so are they different because of their birth? Or is it simply
just some clothes? But notice he has missed out the whole middle, the actual essential. It’s
not the birth, it’s not the clothes. It’s the consciousness, it’s the activities, it’s the values,
that’s what makes the difference. But he has left that out because if he gets to that that will
cut his birth thing, because he is trying to establish the birth. So therefore he equates that
with the cloth. So you are saying it’s just some cloth? They wear bigger kurtas than us and
shorter lungis. We wear longer lungis, shorter kurtas, they wear bigger kurtas, shorter lungis,
is that what the difference is?
Vaisnava dasa: According to his past karma, the soul accepts a higher or lower birth.
The differences of caste are considered according to how human beings are qualified to
perform different kinds of work.
So it’s a matter of what work they can do. That’s what you are looking at. It’s not a
matter of where they are born. Much of the time by their karma, of course, they are going to
be born in a situation to best suit their nature. But that doesn’t define actually what they
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can do. You have to see what they actually do. So therefore if someone is born in a low-
grade family and he takes up very happily low-grade activities then you can understand in
his last life that was his mentality, so therefore now, but it may have been a bit of a
difficulty. Now he has taken birth in a situation in which being low-class activities comes
natural. Everybody does, it’s just the way it is. So he’ll be very comfortable in that. And then
from there he will just become more and more implicated. But if you see that they appear in
a low-grade family but take up high-grade work then you can understand they previously
were nicely situated, but something was wrong in the mentality, some kind of impure
thoughts or things like that, so that created the low birth.
So that’s why in general you can say, yes, the family they are born in that’s what they
are going to be like. But at the same time, there is other considerations of karma, so you
actually have to see what they do. They are born in that family, they do like that, then you
are not surprised. They are born in that family, they are not like that, you may be surprised,
but you accept.
The four castes are brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra. All others are outcastes.
Manu says there are only four castes, anything outside of that is outcaste. Means just
there is the caste, so there is out of the castes, whatever it may be, so it’s outcaste, that’s all,
it’s simple. There is not, well, no, but we are Westerners and we are. Yes, outcaste. Now you
want to take up the Vedic culture, take up the brahminical understanding, then as Vaisnava
you establish yourself nicely. So then no one is going to say that oh, someone is Westerner
this and that. But if you say, oh, but we don’t care for the Vedic culture, we don’t care for
this and that. But the devotees, yes, they don’t care about the Vedic culture because they
can follow and they rise above it, not that they can’t follow it and therefore drop below it.
What is glorious? There is a guy, he is a beggar on a street, he has absolutely nothing.
Then taking up devotional service, then you glorify him for being so simple and austere.
Nice, but the thing is what’s changed is his consciousness, that’s the special thing, that he is
born in such an unfortunate position, but he is taking up the devotional service so sincerely.
Just like Mrgari the hunter, low-grade, but is he praised for his simplicity and his
austerity? No, he is praised for his commitment to the order of guru and devotional service
and Vaisnava qualities. Someone like Rupa and Sanatana from very high-grade brahmana
families, they know Sanskrit, they know Persian, they know Bengali, they are government
officials the top, the treasurer and the prime minister of East India, they move in all circles,
they can do everything perfectly, they are used to such opulence. They give all that up.
Then we talk about the Goswamis how austere they were.
So in other words, it’s setting that example. Raghunatha dasa he is the one of the
example for the most amount of austerity, why? His father would make two million gold
coins a year as profit. He is a tax collector, so he collects all the tax. After giving this
amount of money he has to give to the officials above him, they have two million gold coins
left over. So you are talking about worth billions. But this is not on paper, this is in gold. So
from that family then he lives like he does, that’s austerity.
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You understand the point we made? The point being made is someone from a mleccha
and yavana background that never actually took up and can’t practice principles like
cleanliness and this and that, for them to say, oh, that’s fanatic, we don’t care for the rules,
has no real value, it has no value. Because the point is Prabhupada did give standards of
cleanliness and all these things. Washing your hands, mouth, and feet after you go to the
bathroom or eat was what Prabhupada established. Now if we say, oh, that’s fanatic, then we
are saying Prabhupada is fanatic. That’s just basic fundamental stuff. That would be like for
a Westerner to say, oh, after passing stool using toilet paper and cleaning your backside is
fanatic, why do we care for these things? Dogs don’t clean their backside why should we
being natural? That would be that gross. You can say, oh, that’s disgusting. But for someone
who understands the Vaisnava… it’s disgusting that one wouldn’t follow these things.
So the point being made here is there are four orders, there isn’t a fifth. So we can’t
create our own because we are special and different, we are Westerners and so we are unique
in the whole cosmic creation. No, it’s no big deal…
Cudamani: Are the Yavanas not outcastes?
Vaisnava dasa: Yes. In the conclusion of the scriptures they are outcastes. They are
outside the four castes.
So now it’s going in this, because Vaisnava dasa has not in any way compromised the
philosophy. Because the point is what the smartas are saying and what we say as far as sastric
aspects go most of it is the same, the problem is their conclusion, their application is wrong.
But otherwise they start with all the same things. So up to this one it’s there, so then
Cudamani will be confident in that, and then he’ll bring out all his points and then they
will be arguing, and then at the end you just show that the conclusion is wrong.
Cudamani: If this is so, then how can a Yavana become a Vaisnava, and how can a pious
Vaisnava associate with a Yavana?
So this is his point, so he thinks, yes, now I have won.
Vaisnava dasa: One who engages in pure devotional service is a Vaisnava. Simply by
being human one is qualified to be a Vaisnava. Because they have taken a low birth, the
Yavanas may not be qualified to perform the duties of the different castes. Nevertheless,
they are perfectly qualified to engage in all the activities of devotional service. One who
does not understand the subtle differences of the karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, and bhakti-
kanda parts of the Vedas cannot be said to be truly learned in the scriptures.
So now he is making this point as a human being anybody can be a devotee. So it doesn’t
matter what their background is or that, they can be devotees. So it’s not based on the birth.
Because anyway even you are born in a brahmana family you have to be taught everything
about that means to be a brahmana, how to speak, how to behave, how to study, all these
different things. So it’s just a matter of training. It’s not that the birth made them qualified.
Otherwise why is the brahmana dvija? He is twice-born. So it’s the second birth that
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actually makes him a brahmana. So in the same way, then when anybody takes up the
devotional process that is his second birth, so they become dvija.
And now he is saying that these things are subtle and so someone who doesn’t
understand the subtleties actually doesn’t know the scriptures. Now he said something back
about Cudamani’s position.
Cudamani: Good. By acting rightly one becomes pure in heart. When the heart is
purified, one is qualified to understand transcendental knowledge. Among those who have
attained transcendental knowledge some are impersonalists and some are Vaisnavas, who
believe in spiritual variety. In the beginning of spiritual life one must perform pious deeds
(karma). If one’s pious deeds have attained their completion, one cannot become a
Vaisnava. However, the Muslims are not qualified to perform pious deeds. Therefore, how
can they ever become qualified to engage in devotional service?
So now he is using this, ok, now they are going to take up devotional, to take up
devotional service you have to study the scriptures to be convinced that this is what you do.
But to take up that study of the scriptures requires piety and these yavanas they don’t take
up piety. So how will they be able to understand?
You see here Vaisnava dasa is just straight answering the philosophy, he is not in any
way trying to be tricky. He is just answering it and pointing out the point. Cudamani each
time he gives the answer he thinks now I have got you, and then he says his point. But then
he is just giving a straight answer. So he can’t get him.
Vaisnava dasa: Even outcastes can become qualified to engage in devotional service.
This accepted by all the scriptures. In the Bhagavad-gita (9.32) it is written:
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth - women,
vaisyas (merchants), as well as sudras (workers) approach the supreme destination.”
Here the word ‘asraya” means “engage in devotional service”. Also in the Kasi-khanda it
is said:
“Either a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, or outcaste, a person is most exalted if he
engages in devotional service to Lord Visnu.”
In the Narada Purana it is also said:
“O king, a dog-eater who is devoted to Lord Visnu is better than a brahmana. A sannyasi
who is not devoted to Lord Visnu is also inferior to such a dog-eater devotee.”
Cudamani: There are many scripture quotes like that. How should these quotes be
understood? That we must see. How can the defect that is attained by birth be removed by
any means other than another birth?
So he is leaving out the potency of the process. Simply birth is the process which is from
karma. So how can something of karma actually be the basis for something of that is
spiritual? The devotional is transcendental. So how will that go? Because if we are taking
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that, even if we take that argument then no brahmana could ever claim to be an
impersonalist, they would have to stick to karma-kanda. Because to be an impersonalist
means the soul attains a position or a nature that is beyond his birth. You are born into the
world to be involved in the activities of this world, otherwise why are you born here? So
then if you have to take another birth to then take up a higher principle then you would
have to be born in Brahman, so that means what would you do? You would do nothing. So
that wouldn’t be accepted. You won’t just for doing nothing take birth in Brahman. And
how would you take birth in Brahman, because Brahman doesn’t take birth? So then they
are saying you have to take birth again, then you could be Vaisnava. So somehow or another
from brahmana to Vaisnava, why can’t you go from yavana to Vaisnava? They are missing
the point. They are thinking that the birth is what is creating the activity. But a kid, if you
had a brahmana kid, didn’t train him, he’d be an animal.
Devotee (1): The brahmanas do they deal with devotional service? Are they even thinking
that that’s their goal?
Maharaja: In the previous chapter then that was discussed that they because the brahmanas
must worship Saligram, it doesn’t matter what their philosophy is, they must worship
Saligram, so in this way they’ll consider themselves Vaisnavas from that platform, because
they are worshiping Visnu. They may have an idea that ultimately then it’s impersonal. So
they will claim to be Vaisnavas but technically they are not, because they see the Lord’s
form as temporary, and the process of devotional service worshiping as temporary for an
eternal goal of impersonalism. So they do consider themselves.
Just like you go to most Hindus’ houses they’ll consider themselves devotees. But if you
ask them what’s the ultimate it will always be Brahman. You actually find actually very few
Vaisnavas. But you have people that are pious and have bhakti-sukrti, but mainly karma-
sukrti, jnana-sukrti, but a little bit of the bhakti-sukrti in that they can appreciate the
devotional service. But they only appreciate it as a nicer means to obtain to Brahman
realization as opposed to the difficulty of renunciation and knowledge of the jnana-kanda.
Devotee (1): So they understand devotional service is ritualistic stuff. They don’t
understand that they should surrender.
Maharaja: Yes, for them devotional service is simply a means to another end. That’s why it’s
mentioned that the holy name is the process and is the goal, because they are connected. In
other words, your relationship with Krsna is eternal, the process is eternal, the result is
eternal. So then it lasts. Otherwise then you are dealing with all these temporary aspects.
That’s going to be a problem.
So they don’t understand if you have to take birth to be Vaisnava then you would have
to take birth to actually come to this other because it’s a matter of consciousness, it’s not a
matter of birth. Brahman realized means, a brahmana means he is qualified to perform the
brahminical activities in pursuit of the higher consciousness, but it doesn’t necessarily mean
he has it. So Vaisnavism is higher consciousness. So just as he said here Among those who
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have attained transcendental knowledge some are impersonalists and some are Vaisnavas. So
they take these things for granted. That’s the problem, in the philosophy they’ll take
something for granted. Because without understanding the full connection between the
living entity and God and the material world there is going to be some weakness somewhere,
so that has to be overlooked. So they don’t even think about it.
Vaisnava dasa: The defect of a low birth comes from prarabdha-karma (past karma that
has begun to bear fruit). When one chants the holy names of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, those karmic reactions are thrown far away. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.16.44) it is
said:
“Merely by hearing the holy name of Your Lordship only once, even candalas, men of
the lowest class, are freed from all material contamination.”
Yes, so here, Merely by hearing the holy name of Your Lordship only once. So it’s a very
powerful process. So we always have to remember that, devotees in whatever they may be
doing they make mistakes, and so we can’t see that from such a strong perspective. Means, of
course, if one is not careful one can get distracted by that mentality. But the point is to
actually purify it, to rectify it, basically it just takes one holy name. It doesn’t take something
else. These things mentioned in the scriptures as prayascitta, Manu has one whole chapter, I
think it’s the Eleventh Chapter is all prayascitta, but ultimately that’s not the real purifying
element. That just is the just way, it purifies the prarabdha-karma, it doesn’t do anything
with the mentality. But it’s the mentality that creates, it’s because of your mentality you
perform an action. That action gets a reaction. By performing the prayascitta you remove
the reaction, but you don’t remove the mentality that was the cause, why you did the
activity that gave you the reaction. So it’s very simple, it only removes the result.
So here he is saying by consciousness by taking up the spiritual, it goes beyond all this.
Because the prarabdha-karma only that is then, that is what causes the position in the
karmic cycle. So by chanting that removes it. So therefore anybody can take up the
brahminical position. But the conditioned nature is such it doesn’t make the conditioned
nature go away, because if it made all prarabdha-karma go away, you wouldn’t have a body.
Then how are you going to perform your service?
I mean we have heard about when Ramacandra was building the bridge across the ocean
to Lanka that Hanuman and all the big monkeys were carrying mountain tops and throwing
them in the water, while in different stories of the squirrel or a spider then they were
kicking little bits of dust in, but Ramacandra saw they are the same. But you have to
understand at least they were bigger than that piece of dust, so they could move the dust. So
if you are 1/10000 of the tip of the hair it might not be a lot you are able to do.
So the prarabdha-karma doesn’t remove the body and that form of the conditioned
nature. The devotional service will change the mentality, change the consciousness, change
the values of the mind, the usage of intelligence, the ego, but the body remains the same. So
therefore what would be the natural activities that one would perform within varna and
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asrama those remain. One can choose to go above them if you can. If not you comfortably
work within them and connect them to Krsna. But that much doesn’t go away.
So therefore someone can be a brahmana by consciousness and by commitment but be a
sudra by occupation. This is the part that sometimes becomes not understandable. So you
want to say, no, everybody is brahmana so they can do. Yes, everybody is a brahmana, so
main brahminical activities, every devotee likes to do an offering or an aratika, occasionally
do something like this, but to do that day and day out, that’s the way you are going to
maintain your family, then how many do you know of? Think about it, how many are there?
So that’s the point, that’s how many are brahminical by conditioned nature. And everybody
else they are doing something else. But it doesn’t matter, because it doesn’t matter what you
are doing you can still do those basic activities. But you are doing it as part of your sadhana.
You come once a week on Saturday and dress the deities as part of the rotating thing,
everybody comes, everybody gets a chance. But how you maintain your family is you run
some business or something. So in varna is vaisya, but you are a devotee. So you can give the
class, lead the kirtana, dress the deities, cook for the deities, that doesn’t matter. But it is a
difference, is it your occupation or is it your sadhana? So for a brahmana his sadhana is his
occupation, for everybody else their sadhana and occupation. When Many describes asrama-
dharma there is no separate description of varna-dharma for brahmanas, but there is for
ksatriyas and vaisyas, sudras. Because ksatriyas don’t make a living out of following sadhana.
Here is subtle differences, it’s important to note them. They don’t mean there is not a
necessity to note them when it comes to, ok, who gives class, who does kirtana and this and
that. But when it comes to things like technicalities of deity worship and this and that then
the one who knows the deity worship they should be making the comments. Just like you
would expect that if the temple wants some advice on business he’ll listen to a businessman,
not just oh, I am the temple president, I am senior to the members of my congregation,
therefore them as a businessman I am senior to them so I’ll tell them what to do. It doesn’t
work like that. Material energy is material energy.
You take a potato, cut it up. Take a cauliflower, cut it up. Cook them together into a
sabji. Offer it to Krsna. Now it’s prasada, it’s transcendental, it’s non-different from Krsna.
But what does it look like still? A cauliflower and a potato, and you can tell the difference at
least if you know how to cook. Sometimes you can tell the difference if you don’t know how
to cook. It’s so uncooked that it won’t fall apart. So then also you can tell the difference.
So these are important aspects. So therefore someone who knows these areas they
should be giving some direction there, they should be looked for those activities. These
things aren’t up for, they are not a matter of political things. Oh no, all devotees should do
it, or this or that, or everybody equal. That’s mundanity. It’s mundanity at its lowest. The
only thing lower is obvious self-centered hedonism, that’s the only thing lower. Just above
that is where you are not so self-centered, therefore you are not so hedonistic, you are
willing to consider others. But it’s the same mentality, the same needs, all it is is you are
willing to share, rather than just be so self-centered. That’s the only difference. But it
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doesn’t make it so respectable. It’s definitely better respectable than hedonistic materialist.
But it doesn’t actually come to a human standard.
Humans begin at varnasrama. Below varnasrama, below dharma, it was not human. You
can engage in artha and not be human. One can think, no, by doing business we have this
and that. Animals do the same thing, they set things up. I have seen this little video of
these, I don’t know where they are, I think Mauritius, some strange place, not too strange, of
course, but strange and wonderful place. Or maybe it’s Madagaskar. These little blue birds,
these big blue eyes, they look really crazy.
Devotee (2): Must be Madagaskar.
Maharaja: Maybe in Madagaskar. I used the word crazy. If it’s long and tall and green then it
would be Mauritius, right? Sugarcane, right?
These birds they create this nest thing. I think it’s even on the savanna. They build this
whole thing and they go out and collect things. Shiny things especially, they really like
shiny things. So in this area if you leave something down that’s shining, they’ll pick it up
and take it. And they line the nest and set it all up, and there is an entrance, there is a
whole thing. And once he gets it all set up then he brings the female bird. And then if she
approves it then she’ll accept him as a mate and then they’ll have the whole family and all
that. But if she doesn’t approve it then she just turns up her nose and walks away. But while
she is there he there…it is really wild watching it how much he is like, isn’t it great, check it
out, doing this whole thing. And then sometimes they accept it and sometimes they just
walk away and it’s kind of like, uh ok. Then he runs off finds some more stuff rearranges it
like this. So they are doing a whole arrangement, it’s not just some. But it’s no different
principle. The guy he gets his shiny car and all these things, and if it’s nice and the lady likes
it then she goes out with him, and if she doesn’t like it she doesn’t. It’s simple, it’s no
different. How did we get into that?
Devotee (3): Artha.
Maharaja: Oh artha. Just because one is expert at artha doesn’t mean that one is human.
This is a mistake. That’s a mistake. So one has to be very, very careful in this, one
understands is therefore the consciousness and then what is the material nature. So that
combination is used for Krsna. The consciousness is that of a devotee and then the
conditioned nature whatever it is that’s engaged also for Krsna, so then it’s complete. But
it’s not the sentiment, oh, it doesn’t matter, it’s this and that. If it doesn’t matter, then why
does everything else matter? Why do we sit around and make structures and committees and
this and that and so many different things? It does matter. But it’s only when it comes to
spiritual.
So that’s what one has to be careful of. Otherwise one places oneself outside the
varnasrama system, but it’s not that one can’t be Vaisnava and be outside the system. That’s
the point. One can be outside and still take up devotional service. But the point is devotee
being automatically brahmana it’s natural to follow the brahminical culture. Brahminical
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philosophy, brahminical culture match. Brahminical philosophy, yavana culture not so good.
But it can be done. But it’s not recommended. But as a place to start from, yes. But to make a
philosophy that I don’t want to work on it, I am too lazy to work on it, or I don’t have the
subtlety to appreciate, therefore I don’t change it, to make a philosophy, no no, it’s fine just
to stay where I am, that’s not honest.
It is also said (Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.2.46):
“Therefore one who desires freedom from material bondage should adopt the process of
chanting and glorifying the name, fame, form and pastimes of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, at whose feet all the holy places stand. One cannot derive the proper benefit from
other methods, such as pious atonement, speculative knowledge, and meditation in mystic
yoga, because even after following such methods one takes to fruitive activities again, unable
to control his mind, which is contaminated by the base qualities of nature, namely passion
and ignorance.”
So he is saying there is no other process anyway for elevation than devotional service.
So even the brahminical they have to use these things. Manu makes it very clear, the
highest duty of a brahmana is to study, teach, and chant. That’s actually the highest.
Everything else is duties after that, following that. But that’s the most. And the most
important way of purifying yourself is through study of scriptures, associating with advanced
devotees, and chanting. After a whole chapter on prayascitta, you do this, you step on this
bug you have to do this, you step on that bug then you have to do that, all that, then it says
that this is the most important thing. So that’s straight. So this whole idea, oh Vedic is all.
No, Vedic gives the rituals for those who need them. But ultimately it says the Vaisnava
understanding that’s the highest, Manu says this quite a few times. (end of lecture) (end)
March 19 – April 2, 2010

(recordings missing)
It is also said (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.33.7):
“Oh, how glorious are those whose tongues are chanting Your holy name! Even if born
in the families of dogeaters, such persons are worshippable. Persons who chant the holy
name of Your Lordship must have executed all kinds of austerities and fire-sacrifices and
achieved all the good manners of the Aryans. To be chanting the holy name of Your
Lordship, they must have bathed at holy places of pilgrimage, studied the Vedas, and
fulfilled everything required.”
Cudamani: Why is it, then, that an outcaste who chants the holy name of Lord Hari is
not qualified to perform yajnas and other rituals?
Vaisnava dasa: To perform yajnas and other rituals one needs to take birth in a
brahmana’s home. A person who takes birth in a brahmana’s home is not qualified to
perform Vedic rituals after he has received the sacred thread, so an outcaste who has
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become purified by chanting Lord Hari’s holy name but who has not taken birth in a
brahmana’s home cannot perform yajnas and other rituals. However, the various activities
of devotional service are immeasurably better than the performance of Vedic yajnas.
Cudamani: What kind of conclusion is that? That a person not qualified for an ordinary
thing can be qualified for an exalted thing! What is the clear proof for that?
Vaisnava dasa: Human activities are of two kinds: 1. material and 2. spiritual. Even after
becoming qualified, one may not necessarily be able to perform certain material activities.
For example, a person born in a Yavana family may become purified and, spiritual speaking,
may become a genuine brahmana. Still, according to the material conception, he is still not
qualified to marry a brahmana’s daughter.
Cudamani: Why not? What is wrong with that?
Vaisnava dasa: It is wrong to violate social custom. They who are proud of their material
activities do not break social custom, and they who are qualified to make spiritual
advancement do not break social custom either.
Cudamani: How does one become qualified to perform material activities? How does one
become qualified to perform devotional service?
Vaisnava dasa: One’s nature, birth, and other things qualify one to engage in material
activities. Faith in the truth qualifies one to perform devotional service.
Cudamani: Without overwhelming me with Vedanta vocabulary, please clearly tell me:
What are the natures needed to perform the different kinds of duties?
Vaisnava dasa: Some qualities in a brahmana’s nature are: 1. peacefulness, 2. self-control,
3. austerity, 4. purity, 5. satisfaction, 6. tolerance, 7. honesty, 8. devotion to the Supreme
Personality of Godhead, 9. mercy, and 10. truthfulness. Some of the qualities in a ksatriya’s
nature are: 1. power, 2. strength, 3. determination, 4. heroism, 5. tolerance, 6. generosity, 7.
perseverance, 8. gravity, 9. service to the brahmanas, and 10. leadership. Some of the
qualities in a vaisya’s nature are: 1. religiousness, 2. charity, 3. faith, 4. humbleness, and 5.
eagerness to become wealthy. Some of the qualities in a sudra’s nature are: 1. service to the
brahmanas, cows and demigods, and 2. being satisfied with whatever is one’s situation in life.
Some of the qualities in an outcaste’s nature are: 1. impurity, 2. untruthfulness, 3. theft, 4.
atheism, 5. senseless quarreling, 6. lust, 7. anger, and 8. desire for material sense
gratification. The scriptures teach that the different castes are determined by seeing these
qualities. To determine the castes by birth alone is the materialistic practice of modern
times. A person’s natural inclinations and natural ability to learn different skills are to some
extent determined by birth. Thus one’s nature makes him qualified to perform specific
duties. The nature of many people is determined by their birth. From childhood they
manifest certain specific tendencies. In this way it is seen that one’s nature is determined by
his birth. However, birth is not the only factor determining one’s nature and one’s fitness to
perform certain kinds of work. There are many other factors also. For this reason the
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scriptures affirm that in determining a person’s fitness for a certain kind of work, one
should examine his nature and qualities.
Cudamani: What did you mean when you said the words “faith in the truth”?
Vaisnava dasa: When a person has in his heart sincere faith and trust in the Supreme
Personality of Godhead, that is called faith. When a person is materialistic, has an impure
heart, in his heart has a false conception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and is
selfish, proud, and eager for fame, his faith is called “insincere”. Some saintly persons say
that “sincere faith” means “faith that follows the scriptures’ teachings”. This kind of sincere
faith makes one qualified to engage in devotional service.
Cudamani: Various persons may possess this “faith that follows the scripture’s
teachings”, but they are not necessarily all exalted great souls. Are such persons qualified to
engage in devotional service?
Vaisnava dasa: A person’s nature makes him qualified to perform specific duties, but it
does not necessarily qualify him to engage in devotional service. Please look at the
explanation written in this page of Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.20.27-30 and 32-33):
“Having awakened faith in the narration’s of My glories, being disgusted with all
material activities, knowing that all sense gratification leads to misery, but still being unable
to renounce all sense enjoyment, My devotee should remain happy and worship Me with
great faith and conviction. Even though he is sometimes engaged in sense enjoyment, My
devotee knows that all sense gratification leads to a miserable result, and he sincerely
repents such activities.
“When an intelligent person engages constantly in worshipping Me through loving
devotional service as described by Me, his heart becomes firmly situated in Me. Thus all
material desires within the heart are destroyed.
“The knot in the heart is pierced, all misgivings are cut to pieces, and the chain of
fruitive actions is terminated when I am seen as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
“Everything that can be achieved by fruitive activities, penance, knowledge,
detachment, mystic yoga, charity, religious duties, and all other means of perfecting life is
easily achieved by My devotee through loving service unto Me. If somehow or other My
devotee desires promotion to heaven, liberation or residence in My abode, he easily achieves
such benedictions.”
In this way faith in devotional service develops.
Cudamani: What if I have no respect for Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Vaisnava dasa: Srimad-Bhagavatam teaches the conclusion of all the scriptures. The
scriptures are one. If you do not respect Srimad-Bhagavatam, then you insult all the other
scriptures. I do not need to show evidence from many scriptures. Does everyone accept
Bhagavad-gita? Think about that. When you first spoke from your mouth came a verse from
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Bhagavad-gita, a verse that contains the teachings of all the scriptures. In the Gita (9.30-32)
it is said:
“Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional
service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.
“He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kunti, declare it
boldly that My devotee never perishes.
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth - women,
vaisyas (merchants), as well as sudras (workers) approach the supreme destination.”
These verses mean that a person who has faith in Me alone (ananya-bhak) and who
engages in the activities of devotional service, which begin with hearing and chanting Lord
Hari’s holy names and the descriptions of Lord Hari, renounces all impious deeds, which are
naturally sources of misery. He renounces materialistic activities and he is considered
saintly. In this way he follows the glorious spiritual path. One path is the path of karma-
kanda, which begins with the duties of varnasrama. A second path is the path of jnana-
kanda, which begins with speculative knowledge and renunciation. The third path is to stay
among the devotees and have faith in the holy name of Lord Hari and the descriptions of
Lord Hari. Sometimes these three paths are considered yogas. In this way they are called
karma-yoga, jnana-yoga and bhakti-yoga. Some people practice these different yogas. Thus
they are called karma-yogi or jnana-yogi. Among all these yogis, the bhakti-yogi is the best,
for in bhakti yoga one attains limitless auspiciousness. At the end of the first six-chapter
section of Bhagavad-gita (6-47) one may see the following conclusion:
“And of all yogis, he who abides in Me with great faith worshipping Me in
transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest
of all.”
One must properly understand the meaning of Bhagavad-gita 9.31. This verse means
that a person who faithfully engages in devotional service quickly casts far away all faults in
his character and activities. A person who engages in devotional service to the Supreme
Personality of Godhead becomes pious, for the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Himself
the root of all piety. The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself is conquered by
devotional service. When the Supreme Personality of Godhead stays in a person’s heart, the
bondage of maya is at once thrown far away. Such a person need not adopt any other
process to become free from maya. Whether he performs material pious deeds or not, a
devotee’s heart is naturally filled with piety and saintliness. Lust is then thrown far away,
and in its stead peacefulness enters his heart. The Supreme Lord Himself promises: “My
devotee will never perish. The karmi or jnani may fall into bad company, but My sincere
devotee will never fall into bad company, for he always has Me as his companion. Therefore
he will never fall down. Whether born in a sinful family or a brahmana family, a devotee
always has the supreme goal of life in the palm of his hand.”
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Cudamani: Look, my scriptures says the qualification that comes from birth is the best. I
was born in a brahmana’s home. By chanting the Gayatri mantra and performing other like
duties I will gradually attain transcendental knowledge and at the end I must attain
liberation. How does faith arise? I do not know. I see that the Gita and Bhagavatam teach
that faith leads to devotional service. Please explain what the soul must do to attain that
faith.
Vaisnava dasa: Faith is part of the soul’s eternal nature. The duties of varnasrama and
other like duties arise when the soul’s temporary nature is manifested. That is the
conclusion of all the scriptures. In the Chandogya Upanisad (7.19.1) it is said:
“A person who has faith can understand. A person who has no faith cannot understand.
A person who has faith can understand. Therefore one should ask about faith.” ‘O master, I
wish to know about faith.’”
Some philosophers define the word ‘faith’ as ‘trust in the words of the Vedas and the
spiritual master’. That is not a wrong definition. However, it is not very clear. In my
sampradaya ‘faith’ is defined in these words (Amnaya-sutra 57):
“Faith is a specific activity performed in the heart. It makes one desire to engage in
devotional service. It is different from the other means of spiritual advancement.”
By associating with devotees and repeatedly hearing from them, a person becomes
convinced in his heart that ordinary pious deeds (karma), impersonal speculation (jnana),
and the gymnastics of yoga will not help him reach the eternal destination, and that
destination cannot be attained by any means other than sincerely taking shelter of Lord
Hari’s feet. When one thinks in this way he naturally attains faith in the words of the Vedas
and the spiritual master. The nature of this faith is described in these words (Amnaya-sutra
58):
“Faith is characterized by taking shelter of the Lord and surrendering unto Him.”
Thus it is seen that taking shelter of the Lord and surrendering unto Him is the external
symptom of faith. This surrender and taking shelter are described in these words (Sri Hari-
bhakti-vilasa 11.417):
“The six divisions of surrender are the acceptance of those things favorable to
devotional service, the rejection of unfavorable things, the conviction that Krsna will give
protection, the acceptance of the Lord as one’s guardian or master, full self-surrender and
humility.”
Thus one makes the following vow: “I will do whatever is favorable for pure devotional
service, and I will reject whatever is not favorable for it. The Supreme Personality of
Godhead is my protector. By being active in impersonal speculation (jnana), yoga, and other
like activities, I cannot attain anything of value. I cannot protect myself. I will serve the
Lord as far as I am able, and He will protect me. In this way I will be protected. Who am I? I
am His property. Whatever He wishes, that I will do. In this way I will offer myself to Him. I
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own nothing. I am poor and lowly.” In this way one understands his lowly position. When
this vow, along with trust, confidence that the Lord will give protection, complete self-
surrender, and humility are manifested in the heart, that is called ‘faith’. When this faith is
manifested in the heart one is qualified to engage in devotional service. This faith is the
first step to becoming pure and eternally liberated. This faith is part of the soul’s eternal
nature. All spiritual paths that differ from this faith are temporary in their nature.
Cudamani: I understand that much. But how is this faith attained? You have not told me
that. If faith is created by pious deeds, then my argument is stronger, for one who does not
perform the pious duties and rituals of varnasrama cannot attain faith. The Yavanas do not
perform these pious varnasrama duties, so how can they become qualified to engage in
devotional service?
Vaisnava dasa: It is true that faith is created by pious deeds, for the Narada Purana
declares:
“Devotional service is attained by associating with devotees. The association of devotees
is attained by past pious deeds.”
Pious deeds are of two kinds: 1. eternal, and 2. temporary. The pious deeds that bring
association with devotees and devotional service are called eternal pious deeds. The pious
deeds that bring material sense gratification and impersonal liberation are called temporary
pious deeds. The pious deeds that bring eternal results are called eternal pious deeds. The
pious deeds that bring temporary results are called temporary pious deeds. All kinds of
material sense gratification are clearly temporary in their nature. They are not eternal.
Many think that impersonal liberation is eternal, but such persons do not understand the
real nature of impersonal liberation. The individual soul is pure, eternal, and unchanging.
The individual soul imprisoned in the material world of illusions is in his temporary nature.
When his prison shackles are cut and he is released, that moment is called “liberation”. The
act of becoming liberated from the prison occurs in a single moment. Therefore the act of
becoming liberated is not in itself eternal. There is the moment of liberation, and that
moment comes to an end. When the soul’s temporary nature is destroyed, the result is
liberation. When liberation does not occur, then the temporary state is manifested.
Attraction to Lord Hari’s feet never comes to an end. That attraction is part of the soul’s
eternal nature. No impartial person will claim that these aspects of the soul’s nature are
temporary in nature. So-called devotional service that ends when liberation is attained is
temporary in nature. That so-called devotion is actually a specific kind of material activity.
However, the devotional service that exists before, during, and after liberation is eternal. It
is the eternal nature and duty of the soul. Liberation is merely a less-important by-product
of that devotional service. In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:
“Seeing the true nature of the higher worlds attained by pious karma, a brahmana does
not desire them. To learn transcendental subject matter, one must approach the spiritual
master. In doing so he should carry fuel to burn in sacrifice. The symptom of such a spiritual
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master is that he is expert in understanding the Vedic conclusion, and therefore he
constantly engages in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Pious fruitive work (karma), impersonal speculation (jnana) and yoga are all temporary
pious deeds. Association with devotees and the performance of activities that lead to
devotional service are eternal pious deeds. A person who for many previous births has
performed such eternal pious deeds attains faith. A person who performs temporary pious
deeds may attain many different results, but faith in pure devotional service is not one of
them.
Cudamani: Please clearly describe association with devotees and the performance of
activities that lead to devotional service. What kind of pious deeds are these?
Vaisnava dasa: Conversing with a pure devotee, serving him, and hearing his
explanations, all these I call association with devotees. Chanting the holy names in towns
and cities in the company of other devotees, and other like activities, are all activities of
devotional service. Giving charity and performing yoga, when connected to devotional
service, are activities that lead to devotional service. In the scriptures it is said that cleaning
the temple of Lord Hari, offering a lamp to tulasi-devi, fasting on ekadasi and other like
activities, are activities of devotional service. Even if they are performed without pure faith,
or even if they are performed accidentally, these pious activities still increase one’s devotion
for the Lord. When these pious deeds gradually become powerful, after many births they
lead to pure faith in the association of devotees and the performance of pure devotional
service. The word “vastu-sakti” means that every thing has a certain innate power. The
activities of devotional service have the power to increase one’s love and devotion for the
Lord. Even if they are performed without faith, or even if they are performed with
contempt, they still bring good results, what to speak of when they are performed with faith.
April 5, 2010
Maharaja:
In the Prabhasa-khanda it is said:
“Krsna’s name is the sweetest of sweet things, the most auspicious of auspicious things,
the transcendental fruit of the vine of all Vedic literature. O best of the Bhrgus, chanted
even once, either with faith or contempt, it delivers the chanter.”
Here this is Prabhasa-kanda. So here …even once, either with faith or contempt, it delivers
the chanter. So if it’s done with faith then that will give devotion. But even if it’s with
contempt you will get liberation. That was Haridasa Thakura’s point, the holy name even in
namabhasa can give liberation. So the smartas didn’t appreciate that because smartas being
ritualistic and being into their knowledge, they felt that that’s an exaggeration. Because how
could the name be so powerful, one name and then, what they are striving for a life time is
already obtained just by one chanting.
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So it’s important that that’s understood and not that, oh, it’s only a suddha-nama does
that. No, getting rid of sin, getting rid of karma, giving one liberation, that’s minor.You are
dealing with the transcendental realm, with relationships, with the interaction with
Godhead, that’s the big thing. Then things like liberation and these things, clearing impious
activities, that’s small. Because the one is substance, it’s real, the other is not.
You have a tree on the bank and then you have the reflection in the water. With your
little finger you can disturb that whole illusion. You can just go there and touch it and then
the whole thing starts to. But if you go up to the tree and touch it, anything happens?
Nothing. So the point is the spiritual is real, the other is illusion. So it’s not a big deal to
deal with illusion. We because we value illusion we give it that position, that it’s, oh, it’s very
special and so powerful like this and that, but it’s actually not. If one has the grace of Krsna
and the devotees then it’s not a big deal. What’s not a big deal is we understand actually the
position.
So that’s why it’s said, by approaching the spiritual master, you have the ocean of
material suffering, the material life, the material existence, so then by approaching the
spiritual master that ocean gets reduced down to the size of a calf’s hoofprint. So the
spiritual master is the boat by which one crosses. But because it becomes reduced down to
the size of a calf’s hoofprint – not even a cow’s hoofprint or a bull’s hoofprint – a calf’s
hoofprint, then you can just step over it. And the boat still remains there on the shore for
others to approach. So in other words, if one hasn’t approached a spiritual master it seems
like an ocean. But as soon as one has it’s reduced.
So like that then this chanting of the holy name clears everything. The problem is we
still identify with the conditioned aspect, so we continue like that. But technically in one
moment one could surrender and haribol, everything is done.
Thus these pious deeds that increase one’s devotion for the Lord are all eternal pious
deeds. As these pious deeds gradually become powerful, they lead to faith in the association
of devotees and the performance of pure devotional service.
Did you catch just what happened there? Sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya. But the
point is the acaryas, because they are not attached to the presentation of jnana. So they are
not attached to the fancy language. So they just very poetically work it in. In other words,
these pious deeds, but those pious deeds are gained in association of devotees, so that’s
ajnata-sukrti. Then when that increases one develops faith. So it’s by the grace and
association of devotees you develop faith. Faith is there then that’s the first stage of actually
devotional service, before that it was ajnata-sukrti. Because one might ask, but why not
sadhu-sanga, sraddha then like this. No, but it’s because the first time it’s pious activities,
devotional pious activities, because one doesn’t really understand what’s going on. When
one’s faith develops then one understands and then one is committed to that process. So
being committing to that process in the association of devotees one takes up the
performance of the devotional activities. And then with time one becomes steady, one
develops a taste, attachment, like this.
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Because of his past temporary misdeeds a person may take birth in a Yavana’s home, and
because of past eternal pious deeds he may also attain faith in pure devotional service. What
is surprising about that?
We’ll take the thing, much of the time we take religion that it’s got to be mystical, but
it’s a science, it’s very straight-forward. God is there, everything is there, it’s His laws that
make everything work. And so then the problem comes up, we expect it to be something
mystical. So here it is, by one’s misdeeds he is taking birth in a family of yavanas, but by his
devotional credits then he also attains faith in devotional service and takes that up. So that
explains the position of the Kazi. So many Moslems are there, why is it that the Kazi has
surrender? Because he had the pious credits. So therefore when he gained the association of
the devotees and the Lord then he was able to appreciate it. While others, like that one
magistrate he attained the association of Haridasa Thakura he could have also, but it didn’t
have the pious credits, and he’ll probably lose a few pious credits for having Haridasa
Thakura whipped in the market. So even he gets the association of the devotees then he
won’t probably be able to take advantage of it for a long time.
Devotee (1): Isn’t Chand Kazi a special case because Lord Nrsimhadeva appeared to him?
Maharaja: But still all those association with the Lord, the mood is there, that appreciation,
or even if it’s not but one’s involvement. So that’s all still devotional credits. But why would
the Lord appear to him in that pastime unless he has done something? Why not appear to all
the Moslems? Why just him? He could have appeared to all the Moslems like that and then
the next day they all could have come together and what was this, I had a dream about this
big lion guy coming and sitting on my chest and this and that. Yeah, really, I had the same
dream, and they all like this and that. And then sitting over in the corner, when they all
freaked out, then Lord Caitanya can pull out a lion’s mask and go, pst, like this. But He
didn’t. He chose him.
So he is pointing out the point is he has performed these pious things and then this is
the final. But because of misdeeds he is born in this way, but for Krsna illusion is illusion, it’s
not a big deal. It’s just like for the mother if the child gets sick it’s not that now it’s a
different child. It’s not that, well, I only know my healthy child. I don’t know who this is. It
doesn’t work like that. So for Krsna the soul is the same soul. But the soul thinks he is
separate. So therefore He can’t interact. It’s like someone is delirious, you want to interact
with him, but you can’t because they don’t recognize you, they talk all kinds of nonsense. It’s
not that you don’t want to interact. It’s just they don’t. So you wait. So that’s called
Supersoul, He just waits.
So this element is, oh, but if he is a devotee that couldn’t happen. What does that mean
if he is a devotee? If we are going to take that definition then if he is a devotee then
according to Visvanatha devotee means prema. Anything less than prema technically is not
a devotee. Because devotee means you have love for God, and love means prema, not
occasionally, it means always. Then you are a devotee. Before that then you are a sadhaka,
you are practicing to be a devotee. Though you can be a neophyte sadhaka, a madhyama
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sadhaka, or an uttama sadhaka. So therefore on the platform of bhava in the spiritual realm
in one’s spiritual form one is still a sadhaka learning to get to prema. One is on bhava, but a
bud unless it opens then you don’t get the benefit of the flower.
So if we are going to take that definition of, no, if he does this nonsense he is not a
devotee, then yes, anybody below prema is not a devotee. So if one wants to take that then
take it in, but why are you setting it just where you are? My place is, ok, anything below
that’s. As I move up then it’s ok, if I move down then don’t be fanatic, we are all devotee.
One has to be very careful of that.
Then if one is going to be broad-minded then the point is every living entity. So then
it’s a matter of preaching means you avoid those who are not interested simply because there
is limited time, preach to those that are interested. So therefore the innocent you preach to
them because they’ll listen. You worship the Lord, you associate with the devotees, you
preach to the innocent, you avoid the more demoniac mentality, because you just waste your
time. Means in other words, what you could do for them will not compare any way to what
you could do it for your preaching to the innocent. Not that he is any less of a spiritual soul,
it’s just that the state he is in his conditioned state is such that he is very determined to be
on the path going away from Krsna. While the innocent then they are open to the idea of
moving towards Krsna. So then one is broad.
So it’s either you take Baladeva’s position which is anyone who is in any way connected
to Krsna then that’s good, and then naturally make those steps, or Visvanatha’s position of
prema is bhakti. So the recommended would be Baladeva’s position for others, Visvanatha’s
for oneself. Of course, that’s not the popular application. The popular is Visvanatha’s for
everyone else and Baladeva’s for yourself. You are very broad-minded with yourself, very
liberal. No, no, don’t worry, don’t be fanatic. With everybody else then…
Cudamani: I say that if a person has performed even a small number of the pious deeds
that lead to devotional service, then his other deeds must all be pious deeds also.
This is a religionist or a moralist, this is where they get stuck, because their point is it’s
all or nothing. That’s the point. You have a potato, if one side how they get that little black
spot or something. So their point is it’s not useful. You have to throw the whole thing out.
But someone who knows the process, just you take out the bad part and use the rest. So it
doesn’t affect. If the whole thing is black that’s another thing. But we are not talking that
here. But they can’t accommodate that these two things can be happening at once.
Someone can be developing the pious deeds to become a devotee and these pious deeds
are greater than material pious deeds that elevate one to the heavenly planets or give one
liberation. So these pious deeds are greater than that, at the same time, there can be
mundane impiety still remaining within the heart. Because they think it’s all or nothing.
But the point is it’s the consciousness of the soul we are dealing with, not pious activities.
It’s the consciousness. So the consciousness has that devotional piety, therefore it’s moving
in that way. So even if there is still other things going along with it.
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If one can catch this point then the dealing with the devotees, preaching, all these
things become exceedingly easy and inspiring. And as long as one doesn’t catch this point
then there will always be a difficulty, because one can always find some fault somewhere.
Means you can say, well, where there is smoke there is fire, but then if we apply that then
when Krsna walked into the wrestling arena in Mathura many people had bad opinions of
Him. So is that because there is fire so the smoke is there? People can just have bogus
opinions, bogus perceptions. That’s all. Not that whole thing, just because some gossip is
there, where there is smoke is fire, then that means we are giving credit to gossip that gossip
actually is a form of truth? So it validates just sitting around and talking nonsense.
One who is born as a Yavana cannot possibly have performed only pious deeds, and
therefore it is not possible that in the past he performed the pious deeds that lead to
devotional service.
So his point here is if you take birth as a yavana that means it would have been mixed,
you may have done some piety, but there also had to be impious activities. Ok, he is born as
a Kazi, so he has got a position of power, authority, respect, facility, money. So that means
there is some piety there. But there is some impiety because he is born as a yavana. So
therefore because it’s mixed, he is not saying he can’t have performed pious deeds and
impious, his position is unless you are fully pious you can’t be performing devotional service.
That’s his point, in other words, mundane piety is the basis of devotional service, because
they are karma-kandis. So all of their benefit, all their upliftment, all their knowledge is
coming from the performance of their karma.
Devotee (2): They would be happy just to be born again as a brahmana or…
Maharaja: That’s what they recommend but when they apply it to themselves they are
generally quite liberal. If it’s their own son or he is not behaving right or this or that then
they are generally quite lenient. The example was given before, for one person then they
have to do, one of the boys I guess stepped on a spider, killed a spider, so then what’s the
prayascitta? And then he said, oh, he has to do the candrayana fasting and stuff like that.
Candrayana means basically on an average you eat eight mouthfuls of food a day, that’s all.
Means traditional is that you start on the full-moon you eat fifteen bites of food. Then on
the next day as it goes down one then fourteen, thirteen, until on amavasa you fast. And
then the day after amavasa then one bite of food, and then the next day two until it goes up
to fifteen. So he is recommending that but then when his son does the same thing then he
kind of reinterprets the verse breaking it in other things that says a spider is just like a rag so
you don’t have to worry about it. So like that, it’s his own son he looks like that. If it’s
others, very strict.
It’s just like there is all these Hindus in India and the Moslems come along and they take
their what they’d call holy water, what they do to consecrate it I am not sure if they have
mantras or what they do. Then they took that and sprinkle it on the Hindus, and then they
said now you are Moslem. So being people you’d have faith in authority and stuff like that,
then they said, ok, well that’s their process, so what’s the rea… They went to the brahmanas
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and said what are we supposed to do, how do we purify ourself? Instead of just saying go take
a bath in the Ganga, river with your clothes on, which is standard, or don’t even worry
about it because if it’s purified water what do we care? Then they said, oh no, then you have
to drink boiling ghee and then in your next life you’ll be human and all that. So then all
those people became Moslems.
So the reasons that the Moslems very established to such a degree in India was because
of the brahmanas, their misunderstanding of sastra, their misinterpretation. Otherwise it
would have just been the Moguls and it would have been a political group with their armies
and with time then they wouldn’t have been so big. Because it would have just been them
and the people that came with them from the other side of the Himalayas.
Devotee (2): …the whole system is really corrupt.
Maharaja: The system is yeah corrupt because they don’t understand the philosophy. They
are pious, they perform the rituals but they don’t actually understand what the ritual is for,
what are they trying to accomplish. All they see is I work, means they are smart in that they
know I work I get results, so if I do good work I get good results, I do bad work I get bad
results. So their whole thing is just good and bad work as based on the Veda, so they have
faith in that. So that’s good. But they can’t see what’s beyond. They can’t see the soul. They
can’t see these things properly. So therefore then like Cudamani they misinterpret.
Like here is a bunch of saintly babajis and these guys have come to argue with them,
debate with them, and just to put them so that in their place then when it’s worked out
Vaisnava dasa since he studied in Varanasi and he knows debate…so he would be the best
one to discuss, otherwise the panditas wouldn’t be satisfied with the conversation. So then
he opens this, since we are going to discuss Vedanta and this very technical philosophy we
should discuss in Sanskrit because it will be more exact. So then Cudamani at that time has
to decline because he can understand from reading it but he doesn’t know how to speak it.
So right there then that puts them already scholastically on a lower platform, and he hasn’t
really studied Vedanta.
Because otherwise you have these things, if you performed anything wrong then you are
not qualified for devotional service. But the two have nothing to do with each other.
Vaisnava dasa: One should not have such a belief. Eternal pious deeds and temporary
pious deeds are independent of each other.
This is the point, completely independent. So in other words, you are trying to work out
a situation for the person who may have tendency towards material impiety so that he
doesn’t involve himself in that way. But the point is to engage him in eternal piety,
devotional activities. So it’s not that the one has influence on the other or more power. No,
it’s just that your attention goes there. It’s not that the impious deeds or the material piety
has more power than devotional service, just we are more attached to it. So the tendency in
being attached to it is we will become distracted. We’ll become distracted, it’s not the reality
that’s worth more.
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You have like a little kid and you put down a stack of 100$ notes and on the other side
you put something like a shiny toy. What do they pick up? The toy. It’s not that the money
has no value, it’s just they don’t value it, it’s right there, but they get distracted.
So this is the point Eternal pious deeds and temporary pious deeds are independent of each
other. They are not connected, because otherwise sometimes devotees, oh, I joined because I
was seeking and looking, like that. Yes, but everybody is looking. So it’s not because of one’s
pious credits, I am so intelligent. Devotees who were like that Prabhupada always had fun
with them. We were just reading this morning of Lilavati. Because she is post-graduate, she
was studying Greek literature, studying Greek philosophy, Sokrates, all this and that, and
when she heard Prabhupada with the Sanskrit, ok, next I’ll study Sanskrit, very smart. So
she thought she actually had more of an advantage than the other devotees in
understanding philosophy and devotional service. But the two aren’t connected. It may if
you have the piety then you can connect, you can engage your conditioned nature in the
Lord’s service. But it’s not automatic, because you are intelligent therefore you understand
devotional service. No, you can be intelligent and not understand. It’s by the association of
the devotees then we develop the understanding. So they are two separate things. So you
can engage the material intelligence in Krsna’s service but it’s not the intelligence is what
creates your opportunity for devotional service.
Devotee (1): As you mentioned there is limited time for preaching and therefore we see
certain for example gurus who spend more time with educated wealthy influential people
rather than like your average villager or just average run-of-the-mill devotee and there is a
lot of resentment generated. Is that justified?
Maharaja: Is it justified? Means which the resentment or the preaching to the, I mean you
have a preference which one you want to bring out more…
Devotee (1): The individual…saying why don’t I get the time?
Maharaja: So you are pushing forward the cause of the resentmentvadis as opposed to the.
The point is that these it’s a matter of one’s ability. That’s one thing. So one may feel
more comfortable working in one sphere or another sphere. It doesn’t matter. Because one
may say, oh, he only spends his time at college preaching, what about the nursery school
kids? Or he only spends time with prison preaching, what about everybody else? Or he only
spends time on harinama, what about the book distribution? So it’s a matter of how one feels
nicely engaged.
The other thing is those who are in a more materially qualified position if they actually
commit themselves to Krsna consciousness what they can do is so great. So if you are
cultivating ten of those they can do everything. Prabhupada said if there were ten of him
they could take over the world, run everything.
So if someone is cultivating there what’s the problem? The point is it’s like this, if, this
would be not wanting to disturb the politically correct grass roots concept which is fine, but
the point is if that person is putting in his effort with seemingly a more narrow group of
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devotees, but how are those group of devotees responding? So now it’s a good chance that if
that preacher was putting his efforts into just the general populace as you refer to the, what
do you call the, not riff-raff, what did you call it?
Devotee (1): Hoi polloi.
Maharaja: No no, that’s the other group. Which is the, you used the term for just the
common…?
Devotee (1): Run-of-the-mill.
Maharaja: Run-of-the-mill, that was the thing. That brings it down, it drops it a bit kind of,
run-of-the-mill kind of drops it down a bit. So if he put his efforts into the run-of-the-mill
now you might find that the hoi polloi then aren’t disturbed, therefore their qualification.
So he gives them more time they can actually do something with it. But the run-of-the-mill
their perception of that situation and becoming jealous shows actually they wouldn’t be able
to take advantage of more time because they are not qualified.
In other words, you can only allow someone to get close to you that you are more strict
with. Because there the common, whatever it is the general devotee is seeing it simply in
quantification of time, he is not seeing it in quality of surrender on his own part. Oh, he is
spending all his time with those people, but they are organizing the ratha-yatra, they are
organizing doing the temple, they are organizing the book distribution, they are organizing
the yatra where 5000 people are going to be moved around India with ease and without any
discomforture. Means we have hard enough trouble getting one person from one side of
India to the other without a complete insanity. Here they are moving 5000. Who did that?
Did the general devotee organize that? Did the general devotee arrange that 100 buses would
take them around? Did the general devotee work out train tickets for 5000 people? No.
Those hoi polloi did. And who is getting the benefit? Your run-of-the-mill. All they have to
do is come along and enjoy themselves. While that hoi polloi they are working their bud off
the whole time and in anxiety how things are going.
So the point is their surrender is greater therefore they can take more. Their cup is
bigger. So they are seeing, oh, well, they are rich or they are this or they are that. No, their
cup is bigger, while their cup is very small or let’s say their thimble is quite small. So if they
get their finger out of it they might be able to put something in it.
So one can do these things but that itself is symptomatic of the neophyte devotee. The
difficulty with the neophyte devotee is basically he is his own worst enemy. Material nature
is not this that, he is his own worst enemy. Because he, the problem is not that the neophyte
is attached to material energy, that’s not the big deal. As we discussed before, the holy name
is so much more powerful, it’s just a matter of time and association that one gives that up.
The main problem is the neophyte’s inability to cooperate with others, to be able to take
advantage of the association of devotees, that’s the neophyte’s weakness. Not so much that
he is sakama-karma-yoga while the madhyama is niskama-karma, those are details in one’s
own personal development. So that is like how surrendered is he in the way of result and
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these other things. So sakama-karma-yoga you are not looking it so much how is his identity
or the action being performed, because the same action is performed whether sakama or
niskama.
So it’s not one’s attachment to Krsna, it’s a matter of how much oneself is involved. So
we are looking at, well, it can’t be. But it means you can either look at it that the two things
are going simultaneously as it’s mentioned here and so but because our consciousness is
there we can only deal with the one or the other. So if it’s on the material then there is less
time for spiritual. If it’s on the spiritual there is less time for material. If you see someone
like Yudhisthira Maharaja he can deal with a very developed material situation and be
Krsna conscious.
So now what position will you take?
Devotee (1): Trying to be lesser than…
Maharaja: Trying to be lesser than…, ok. So I take it you are not one of the hoi pollois that
are getting all the attention.
Devotee (1): It’s a common complaint.
Maharaja: It’s common complaint, but the point is look at the logistics. There is 5000
devotees, how do you put your time into 5000 devotees other than a class or a yatra? And
even if he spent more time with the lady in the red sari with the green booties, what would
happen? She’d be a little inspired and for one or two days she’d chant her rounds a little
better until something comes up again with her kid or the neighbors or this or that and then
it’s all gone, and then she wants some more, ok, nice. But that same amount of time put into
one of thise hoi pollois you might get something that’s a lot more longlasting in the way of
service and effort done, because they are focused when they are doing something.
When Krsna, He has ten sons, so His lap has a certain size, so generally you can basically
match them have two sitting on your lap unless they pile themselves up or something. So the
one or two sitting on His lap, the other sons were not on the lap they are simply thinking,
wow, what pious credits have these guys done that they are able to be sitting on the Lord’s
lap. While I have done less pious credits that’s why I am not sitting there. So that’s also a
way that one can look at it is, what pious credits have these persons done that they get so
much nice association with this senior preacher, and how I must have done less because I am
not getting that.
So this situation does go on. Because you can always interpret it, oh, he is always with
them, just you always notice it, because in your mind he should always just be with you. He
may talk to this guy here, talk to this guy there, but even though most of the time he is not
talking you notice when he is talking. He came over to him said something in his ear, walked
off. That was what, three seconds. Oh, he is always talking to him. That was three seconds.
Devotee (3): We are all born in Christianity where is the fear emphasized…
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Maharaja: So you are, I have heard a born-again-Christian. So you are born-into-Christians.
Oh I see, so the born-agains are more serious than the born-intos. But it depends on
association really.
Devotee (3): We have this fear from God, like I do some wrong He will punish me. For
example in myself Krsna consciousness is different, just think about Krsna. This sin is not so
important…
Maharaja: So that’s a problem?
Devotee (3): So now for me it’s somehow a problem, difficult to go out just from this old sin,
sin, sin problem.
Maharaja: Because that’s the only way you tell, how do you tell you are a Christian? Can you
tell by the love you have for God? Is that what’s being preached? It’s about you are a good
Christian, you do good deeds, you are a responsible man in your family, you do your job
nicely, you do community service things for the greater community, that makes you a good
Christian. And you avoid certain activities that that particular group of Christians feels is
not good. That’s all.
So the thing is that’s all they have. So that’s why to inspire you to be better they focus
on the sin. But for us that’s not the thing. One has to be careful of that otherwise one will
get distracted. So reaction is there, one is suffering the burden of it. Because then if it’s fear
then where is the relationship? We are supposed to be servants, but fear is a secondary rasa,
not a primary rasa. Servitorship is a primary rasa, while fear is a secondary rasa. So why
would you want to have a secondary rasa with God?
Devotee (4): The question was related to the previous one.
Maharaja: Previous one meaning the question or the person who asked the question?
Devotee (4): The question. A person who wants association with a senior preacher and he
is…attitude and willingness to serve. So usually it’s more or less I just want to spend time.
Maharaja: You want to spend time but you have to be qualified to spend time. Prabhupada’s
point was first deserve then desire. Because devotees wanted so many things, they want to
be this, they want to be that. But Prabhupada’s point was qualify yourself then it will come.
Otherwise then it’s just because we thought it’s nice, so therefore it becomes fact, because if
that’s there then everybody has got their opinion and everybody has got their feeling. If that
is the only basis of consideration then you are going to have a very emotional mess. So there
has to be sastra, what is standard, what is this and that.
Devotee (1): But the point would be, it’s not necessarily a function of their surrender but
their wealth which is just material piety… So they have the potential to render lots of
service.
Maharaja: They have potential to render lots of service. So why did the general devotee not
have lots of wealth? So that would mean in that area he is not very pious. So if we are taking
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that’s potential to do service that would mean the lack of money means the lack of potential
to do service. This is the problem when one compares material to spiritual, because
unfortunately knives have a nasty habit of cutting both ways. So it doesn’t work good. They
may have like that, but the thing is one also has to see what’s the history there, because
some of those wallas with lots of money were there when there was nothing, when there was
one little dinky room. That’s all there was and they were there and they were helping. So
they have been there for 20, 30 years, so what they have done has to be considered. But I
would say just because they have money that’s not that reason it’s being cultivated.
Devotee (1): I am more referring to the outside people, new people that are coming in.
Maharaja: The element is, ok, new people are coming, but it’s a matter of you have to discuss
with the according to position because wealth is also a position of respect, so that means
then that attention needs to be paid. So everybody gets attention according to their
position. The common person nobody notices them anyway, while this wealthy person
people do notice, so it’s his karma to be noticed, so therefore if he gets some attention it
works what he thinks is normal. While the other person he gets less attention and it works.
But the point is that’s just on personal interaction the time spent, but it’s not, the main
opportunity is instruction. So one can take advantage of that at any time, any place.
So therefore how much effort has gone into. Let us say you take the temple, so you have
this little kind of dinky room. So naturally all those wealthy people who are there they could
all fit in that room quite easily, there is many of them, but not that many of them, so they
could fit there with ease. So that’s the consideration and so that’s where the organization of
the temple facilities has stopped? Has it stopped there or did they figure out a way to open
the walls and create these rooms nextdoor and then it’s on video, so then there is a hall
downstairs, someone is translating it into Hindi for those who don’t understand the English
or whatever it’s translated into Marati or this or that? So that means the consideration is
there of everybody, and here is the fun point, who paid for all that? Those guys with lots of
money that’s being talked to. It didn’t cost ten rupees.
So one has to see more of a balance. So in other words, one shouldn’t look at that aspect.
One instruction is enough to, Dhruva Maharaja got one instruction from Narada Muni and
he became perfect. That’s all it takes, a moment’s association. So are we taking advantage of
the moment’s association that we have got or are we jealous of someone else’s moment? We
already have a moment but we want that. That it’s like the dog with the bone. He has the
bone and as he goes over the water then he sees a dog in the water and the reflection, he has
got, a bigger dog, bigger bone. So then he wants that. So he barks to scare the other dog so
he’d drop his bone and then barking he drops his own bone and then no dog has a bone. So
that’s a problem. One has to see, we perceive that the bone is bigger, but it’s the same.
Devotee (5): …associating with the devotee that we want to be there personally, not
necessarily…spiritual instruction that’s being given.
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Maharaja: Yes, that’s a good point, yes, immaturity and actually understanding what sadhu-
sanga is. So that’s the point even the person has spent more time, what would they be doing?
Because you ask then, ok, well, what do you think how should it look like you and the
preacher? What would it look like? What’s it supposed to be? And if you ask that there is
probably a good chance they won’t know what to say. Well, you know, just to be there. But
what are you going to do if you are just to be there? So that means Maharaja gets no time
with himself? Just to be there. I can do all kinds of things. What are those all kinds of things?
So that means you are doing it, that means the other brahmacari who is like wiping the floor
that doesn’t get to do it, so he is also one of the pleas. So then your idea is that you should be
the head plea, but you are a plea, you are not one of these hoity-toity. It generates, what is
the basis?
So when you get those things like that then you just ask what are their definitions.
Because they don’t have definitions, they are just feelings. How they get all the time? What
about everybody else? So what is this what’s everybody else going to get? What’s that going
to look like? What’s the practicalness? So give a plan. If you can’t give a plan then be quiet.
You don’t have a solution then don’t bring up a problem. Unless you are going with a
problem with submission and presenting that then you are up to the authorities to solve it.
Devotee (4): Prabhupada gives the example of the mosquito. The mosquito is the closest to
the person and…
Maharaja: That’s true. Mosquitos especially here in Mayapura they get a lot of association
with devotees, it’s true.
Devotee (5): My guru Maharaja also said that the guru is like a cow and the calf comes to
the cow to drink milk. The cow doesn’t go and find the calf… So you should take the
opportunity…
Maharaja: There means also means that would be the monkey, the monkey holds on so he
can take it somewhere. So there the person is using their abilities and making that endeavor
that way, but the cat means that they are fully surrendered. So in this case they are not fully
surrendered but they are also not presenting any skills, so they are using neither. Also the
cow then the milk means everybody gets what they require. Like when Prthu Maharaja
milked the earth as cow then all the living entities of the universe came and whatever it is
that they needed for their subsistence is what they got. So it’s different. That’s the thing,
everybody is different.
Devotee (1): On the point of preaching to the innocent rather then the envious. What
about Nityananda Prabhu and Haridasa Thakura preaching to the demoniac Jagai and
Madhai?
Maharaja: Demoniac means that you won’t get anywhere. One is an avadhuta and one is
acting as uttama preacher. So avadhutas don’t really worry about these things. Uttamas
don’t see the conditioned covering. Therefore they can preach to anybody. If you are
conditioned that’s where you more have to worry about it, because one tends to see the
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conditioning. While the uttama doesn’t see the conditioning. Means you tell what is the
form but that’s not what you see.
It’s just like if you are in a hospital, the people in the hospital are just sick people, but for
a relative of that sick person it’s the person they happen to be sick. For the doctor it’s the
sickness is the main thing. So it’s a slight difference what you see. So the doctor is expert in
dealing but as far as that personally being able to deal then the uttama has an advantage
that they don’t worry about the conditioned nature, it doesn’t distract them from
understanding that they are servant of God. (end of lecture)
Maharaja: Also it says he avoids, it doesn’t mean that you don’t try and then if it didn’t work
then you give it up. So they took their shot and I think also Jagai and Madhai took theirs.
Devotee (1): They also have a lot of eternal pious deeds to their credits.
Maharaja: Must be. There was no one more sinful than them.
Devotee (1): One more thing, I am sorry I don’t know if you have time, but this morning the
clarification between the karma-yoga and the karma-misra-bhakti.
Maharaja: Karma-yoga you are looking at what is being engaged in the Lord’s service, how to
engage one’s activities in the Lord’s service, in other words, those things that are you are
active in according to your duties and stuff. Karma-misra you are looking at the fault that is
there because of your attachment to that karma. Karma-yoga means you are taking the
karma of your conditioned nature and connecting it to Krsna understanding how that
connects. Karma-misra means you are looking at the weakness that’s there because of your
attachment to that karma.
Devotee (1): So it’s a difference in mood?
Maharaja: Means in other words, your process is karma-yoga, but you have to watch out in
karma-yoga for karma-misra.
Devotee (1): So being attached to the fruits…
Maharaja: Just like in jnana-yoga you have to watch out for jnana-misra. In other words,
jnana-misra is not a process, jnana-yoga is. The anarthas will be jnana-misra. So when you
are engaged in bhajana-kriya then those things that are favorable that’s what you are
cultivating. But those that are unfavorable that’s what you are trying to remove. So the
favorable is the karma-yoga, the unfavorable is the karma-misra.
In other words, one is in karma-yoga, one is engaging one’s family in Krsna’s service.
The karma-misra is I am attached to my family and that’s my motive for doing it. So I should
try to reduce that I am doing this for Krsna but it doesn’t change that karma is being
connected to the Lord. It’s just you are trying to improve the quality of the karma-yoga.
Devotee (1): So when the proportion of the misra outweighs bhakti then it becomes a karmi.
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Maharaja: Yes, it can, or it just very, very not so developed on his path engaging his karma.
Because karmi means there is no devotional endeavor.
Devotee (1): So the difference between sakama and niskama is the difference between the
level of misra that’s there at the mixing.
Maharaja: Yes, means sakama-karma means your desire what you want for yourself you are
inspired to do that but you are willing to connect that to Krsna. So you want the fruits of
the results but you are willing to share that with Krsna. Naiskarmya means you are
performing the duty because that’s what you are supposed to do and without attachment to
the results. That will give you liberation. But that you are doing that to please Krsna, that
you are performing the activity for His pleasure that’s the devotion. So that is the yoga
aspect.
Devotee (1): Unrelated question, too? We are wondering about this guru astrologer Khoroy
(?), Rajasthana.
Maharaja: I don’t know anything about it, I just know that there is one. There is like 30 of
them in India. So he is one of the I heard more prominent one. Basically he is more
prominent because that’s the one the devotees have found. But I don’t think he is a devotee.
Devotee (1): Well, we visited that’s why I am asking. He has got like a photo of Tirupati
Balaji, Radha-Syamasundara from…
Maharaja: He might be a devotee, but he is not an ISKCON devotee. The Bhrgu one in
Bangalore is. He is initiated.
He seems to be good. So what he told you was good?
Devotee (1): Well, that’s what we are a little suspicious. We thought, he just had like a stark
answer for every devotee. You serve the guru you go back to Godhead…
Maharaja: Because go back to Godhead is because he is looking at it you are a devotee, you
are practicing devotional service and according to the chart that brings you up to being
freed from the material world. The chart can’t show devotion.
Devotee (1): But he was translating from moksa basically.
Maharaja: That’s what I am saying, because moksa on one level means it’s out of there. But
moksa ultimately means going back to Godhead, but that means only a devotee. So for a
devotee you interpret it that way. If they are not a devotee then they’d be liberated, or if he
is a materialist you have to look at it what’s the situation he may be liberated from a
particular uncomfortable material situation. So you have to therefore see what is the
meaning of moksa according to the individual you are talking to.
Devotee (1): So it depends very much on his purity to… it what the…
Maharaja: That’s the difficulty with astronomy is a hard science, but astrology is not, it’s a
soft science. So that’s the thing then how much they know, they realize, then they can do
something, but otherwise.
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Devotee (1): I have another question, you were talking about the Pancatattva yesterday, the
position of Nityananda and Advaitacarya. I was reading in Mahanidhi Swami’s chanting
book it talks about every member of the Pancatattva represents a different type of asraya,
different type of shelter, and he said like Lord Caitanya is sarva-rasa-asraya, Nityananda is
prema-asraya, Advaitacarya is Pancaratrika-vidhi-asraya. I was wondering if you have come
across this before?
Maharaja: No, I haven’t seen it. It could be. Basically because Pancatattva is everything in
the cosmic creation is represented. You have the three moods of Godhead because you have
the visaya, which is Krsna, Vraja-Krsna. Then He doesn’t know what it means to be servant
of Krsna, but Balarama does. So Balarama is the complete Personality of Godhead who is
servitor Godhead. So that’s a different mood than Krsna. And that same mood then will
expand down through Dvaraka, Vaikuntha and all that, He is Godhead, so like that. So they
are all servants of Krsna. But then the purusavataras that’s a different mood because you are
dealing with the material energy then there is the idea of creation, destruction, and
maintenance. Because in the spiritual world there is only maintenance, there is existence,
there is no creation and destruction. So there is a different mood. Therefore Advaitacarya
is, means the purusavataras are represented there, in other words, Vraja-Krsna, Vaikuntha,
and the purusavataras. Then you have the svarupa-sakti, which is the internal potency, the
external potency, just the svarupa-sakti is the Lord’s complete energy. Expanding from that
you have the jivas.
Devotee (1): That’s Srivasa Thakura.
Maharaja: Yes. So like that then that’s everything. There is God, the three forms of
Godhead, and His creation, the two forms of the creation.
Devotee (1): So Gadadhara Pandita is the svarupa-sakti…
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (1): And then Advaitacarya, but I mean of the three purusavataras then they are
all embodied by Advaitacarya.
Maharaja: Yes, because they are all expansions. Means Pradyumna, Aniruddha come from
Sankarsana, so He is Sankarsana.
Devotee (1): And then in the scheme of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha being the
three purusavataras what does that leave abhidheya for Vasudeva?
Maharaja: That’s the lilavataras, because they come to the world and do pastimes, they
attract the living entities, so they are interacting. That’s why you always see the lilavataras
are always refered to as Vasudeva.
Devotee (1): And is that why the Bhagavatam invocation is om vasudevaya...
Maharaja: Yes, because Vasudeva is because He has all the qualities of all the others because
He is the source of it.
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Devotee (1): Very interesting because in that description it says that Advaitacarya is the
Pancaratrika-vidhi-asraya, Srivasa Thakura is the suddha-nama-asraya, Gadadhara Pandita
is the bhava-asraya. So I was just wondering what’s the significance of each personality with
respect to that quality.
Maharaja: We have to discuss that another time. I fall asleep. (end)
April 6, 2010
Maharaja:
Cudamani: I say that if a person has performed even a small number of the pious deeds
that lead to devotional service, then his other deeds must all be pious deeds also. One who is
born as a Yavana cannot possibly have performed only pious deeds, and therefore it is not
possible that in the past he performed the pious deeds that lead to devotional service.
So he is making the point that unless one is completely pure and pious on all levels one
can’t do devotional service since it’s the highest. But what he is missing is there is a
difference here, the devotees they are working on a different platform. In other words, the
soul’s connection with God is not depending upon anything mundane. It’s not dependent on
anything mundane. So one could perform devotional activities even if the material is not
perfect. But within the material world then it has to be, the more perfect it is the better the
result. So the same with the spiritual, but perfection is different. The material is perfection
is in its form, and that form, of course, will be enhanced if one is able to do it in a detached
way, because then one will be more intelligent, more clear on what he is doing. But it’s still
the amount of material perfection is very great. The greater the result the greater the
material perfection. But the spiritual life even though it’s the same principle that the better
the devotional service the better the results, but they are in two different categories. So the
devotional service in its perfection, in its improve its quality, does not have to have any
material good qualities. The two are two separate things.
So this is the problem, people don’t see that they are two different categories. They
overlap them. Why do we overlap them? Because for us the material world is important. So
we see the material world is important, therefore perfection in the material activities is
important. And therefore in spiritual if it’s more then it means it’s even more has to be
perfect. But technically devotional service doesn’t require that. What it requires is the focus
on the spiritual endeavor. But if you do that since you are doing it for Krsna means it’s going
to be naiskarmya, you are going to be detached, so therefore you are going to be able to use
your intelligence the best. And so then it naturally will include all the good qualities of the
mundane platform. Because the qualities of the mundane platform are coming from the
spiritual platform. The difference is they are not seen in connection with the Lord.
You find something just laying around and you pick it up, and then you think, oh wow,
this is nice, I can use this for this or that. But the concept that it belongs to someone else is
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not there. So if you understand whose it is or if you don’t understand whose it is that item is
still going to function in the same way and your dealings with it are going to be the same.
So the point is its origin is it belongs to somebody. Not its origin is it’s just lying there
sitting on the sidewalk. That’s not its origin. So the material world and everything about it,
all the activities, all the elements, they belong to God, they have come from God. So now
it’s a matter of recognizing that. But whether you recognize it or not how you deal with them
are the same. You recognize it’s God’s toaster or you don’t recognize it’s God’s toaster it still
functions in the same way and does the same thing. But the difference is are you going to get
spiritual benefit from it or you are not. So how good the quality of the form of your toaster is
is how good you deal with the toaster whether you are a devotee or not. But devotional
service is the quality of the consciousness why you are making the toast. So you are making
this toast for Krsna. So therefore then it works nicely. And because you are making it for
Krsna you are going to pay attention to the details to make sure that you make it nicely.
While the non-devotee he because he himself wants the experience of quality toast
therefore he pays attention to the details and ends up with some good toast. But there we
can see that you want it but then you have to have the qualities to get it. So the spiritual
platform then the same process is there. You want to please Krsna therefore you are going to
endeavor to get good Krsna’s pleasure. So that means the devotee will be good at dealing
with the material energy, because it’s Krsna’s. This idea, oh, we don’t care and this and that,
that’s not actually the method. Because if we don’t care, then that means we don’t see it that
it’s Krsna’s. We see that it is someone else’s. So when we understand it’s Krsna’s then we’ll
deal with it properly. Otherwise if we say it doesn’t matter, then this may be an impersonal
viewpoint, because the impersonalist sees no value in the material world in anything. But
the devotee he doesn’t see any importance in the material world on its own, but he sees it in
connection to Krsna. So it’s a way that he can express his devotion to Krsna.
We see here this overlap? So this is where the confusion comes up, one is unable to
distinguish between kinds of action or qualities of action, in other words, between what’s
spiritual and what’s material, or the quality of it means that it’s being done for Krsna, or it’s
being done as naiskarmya, or it’s being done for yourself. So in some way that lack of
distinguishing is there. So they’ll make the mistake that it has to have materially perfect,
then only it can be spiritual.
Devotee (1): This would be connected to the point why philosophical deviation is a more
serious problem than moral deviation?
Maharaja: Yes. Because moral deviation is a distraction and a disturbance. But the main
problem with it is simply its distraction. But all you are being distracted by is the senses. So
your determination is that of, you know the philosophy, you want to serve Krsna and all
that, so that part is strong, the devotional side is strong, but there is a material weakness
because of conditioning. So that’s actually the lesser of the two. But because we connect the
material form with the spiritual rather than as a medium for. The form is God so it should be
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used for Him, but because it can be used then we also just think about it in its use and forget
about its connection with God.
There is philosophical deviation then it’s not actually connected with Krsna at all. It’s
speculative. Because its connection is simply because it’s authorized by parampara. So it’s
not actually connected, it’s not actually God conscious. But you make it up so it inspires you.
Means in other words, if you are inspired you are going to feel better than if you are not.
Now if it’s something that is it’s about yourself, it’s always easier to be inspired than if it’s
about someone else. So in this case then that making up one’s own philosophy then one feels
inspired and one goes on nicely, one has determination, and you’ll get nice results because
you are doing something for yourself, you are seeing all these things. And then in this case
we are taking the element of the person would be very moralistic. So he’ll be pious, he’ll deal
with the material energy in a pious way. But it’s not for Krsna, but materially it will develop,
but spiritually it won’t at all. But because they connect the material with the spiritual,
which is fine as long as it actually is connected by the proper philosophy and application,
but in this case they don’t connect it that way. They take it as automatic.
I am a devotee, so I am a devotee, I am in the temple, I am chanting, I am offering
obeisance, I am doing this, but then the idea is my action therefore that’s what the Krsna
consciousness. So therefore when I am not in the temple whatever action I do is Krsna
conscious, whether it is or not. You understand the connection? So this has to be seen that
it has to be looked at it.
So philosophical deviation means there is no chance of going back to Godhead or even
being properly situated at all. But being morally weak but philosophically correct one is
properly situated but he is not very developed in his situation.
The young child is born to a very rich powerful family, so he is nicely situated. But he is
the youngest in that whole family. He is not very mature, can’t do anything, but he is still
nicely situated. So what is it? It’s just a matter of time and training.
That’s the whole point, one has to be able to separate these two. Ultimately one doesn’t
have to separate them because everything is coming from Krsna. But the point is does the
moralist see morality as coming from Krsna? If a devotee is doing something that we would
consider that’s not good, what is the basis for our saying that? Is it actually because in sastra
that’s what it says and that we have heard from parampara how to properly connect and
engage ourselves? Or is it simply that from our own particular previous religious background
that it’s considered bad? So in one sense you could say that’s also not so bad, because at least
it has its authority in religion. But there is every possibility that even that’s not being
understood. And they’ll just say, oh, everybody knows it’s bad. But why is it bad? Since when
do we care about everybody, what everybody’s opinion? Opinions everybody has got them, so
who cares?
Devotee (2): Always have this connection whatever I do I should just follow one of the
nine, sravanam, kirtanam… smaranam, then whatever I do I will be connected.
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Maharaja: Yes, means the point is body, mind, and words are to be connected. So how much
of that you can get connect then that’s important. If anything is connected then that’s good.
If you can expand it more then that’s better. So that’s what makes it, the more examplory
the devotee the more they have connected. The point is to be connected.
Devotee (2): For these nine things. When I do exercises it’s hard to it for Krsna, but when I
listen to Srimad-Bhagavatam at the same time…
Maharaja: Yes, then you are connected, but at the same time, still there is the element at
some point the body has to be connected, because mother Yasoda whatever she does the
body, the mind, and the words are all connected to Krsna. So here is something is there or
not. The point is why are you doing exercise?
Devotee (2): Maintaining the body…service.
Maharaja: So then there is a connection, it’s indirect.
Devotee (2): …
Maharaja: But the point is it’s indirect connection. In other words, indirect is not as strong
as direct. So here that the body will be used at another time in Krsna’s service by doing this
exercise then that is indirectly connected. But while you are doing the exercise then to hear
lecture of Prabhupada or something and then be thinking like that, that’s then for the mind,
that’s direct. But the body is engaged in indirect, so you have a mix.
Devotee (2): …
Maharaja: I mean unless you have some way of getting rid of one of them, which is what the
Buddhists and the Mayavadis try to do, or the materialists ignore, but basically you can’t get
rid of that concept body, mind, and words, it just doesn’t somehow or another go away. I
mean ghosts have gotten rid of the body part, so they just have mind and words.
Devotee (2): At the same time in the process of sravanam my ears are engaged, so physically
also.
Maharaja: Yes, but that’s your ears. But the point is why are you engaged in that? In other
words, you are engaged that’s connected and that’s good. Because here we are talking about
distinguishing between material and spiritual. Now with this, now we are distinguishing
within spiritual the quality. Now you are listening to the Krsna conscious lecture while you
are doing your exercise. But now the question comes, that’s good, but is it strong? Because
the point is let’s say would you be listening to a lecture if you weren’t doing the exercise? So
your listening to the lecture and therefore remembering Krsna is actually dependent upon
your exercise. So you feel like doing exercise, therefore because you think it’s a little
mundane, so you don’t want to just be purely mundane, so you listen to a lecture. But if you
weren’t doing that you wouldn’t be listening to a lecture. That’s why it’s not so strong.
If you are going to listen to a lecture anyway. You would be listening and then on top of
this you are doing this. In other words, you sit and listen to a lecture for an hour every day,
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and so you do that. And on top of that you are also doing your exercise and listening, that’s
another thing. Because at least the hearing is steady. But this is based on your exercise. So
you are inspired, then you listen. You are not inspired, then you don’t do the exercise, so you
don’t listen. So therefore as long as you want the results. If the point is you are doing the
exercise because you need to do the exercise so that you can be healthy to serve Krsna, then
because you’ll always have to serve Krsna and therefore always be healthy you’ll always do
the exercise, therefore you always listen to the lecture. But if your health thing is something
else, you decided that somebody made a comment the other day like that, so you are doing
exercise, or someone said something about the digestion and so you are doing exercise, or
you read something on the internet and so therefore you are doing some exercise. These
things will come and go.
So the reason you are doing the exercise is for yourself, but at the same time, there is
benefit because you can see you will be more healthy and can do things for Krsna. And
because you are doing you are listening to the lecture. So the lecture is direct but its actual
reason you are doing it is connected to, it’s two times removed from devotional service. You
are doing this for yourself, but it can be connected to Krsna. But because you are doing it
therefore you are listening to the lecture. So it’s not strong. It’s still compared to the very
nicely situated materialist it’s fabulous.
Devotee (2): But can it by time convert to something better?
Maharaja: By time will it convert, how, what is the process of conversion?
Devotee (2): I mean will the listening become more important like one day…
Maharaja: That’s up to you. I mean it’s just supposed to happen, you are just sitting there
and you just go, bang, why am I doing this exercise, I should just be listening to lectures all
day?
Devotee (2): So there is no border…
Maharaja: The point is it’s a matter of are you going to do that? If listening to the lecture is
important to you, then naturally it will move in that direction. If listening to the lecture is
something so that you don’t feel guilty about doing exercise, which is what is important to
you, and so this way then you feel it’s something Krsna conscious, then as soon as you don’t
feel guilty you won’t be listening. As soon as it’s, in the beginning you are listening and this
and that, feeling something, but then when you find out everybody else does exercise and
they don’t listen to a lecture, he says, yeah, what lecture did you listen to when you do
exercise? Oh, I don’t listen because then I can’t focus, the pranayama, this and that, I forget
the numbers and so I can’t do my exercise properly so I don’t get any result. It’s kind of like,
wow, yeah, so then.
Devotee (2): Another question…if basically in the beginning I don’t have this prema, this…
Maharaja: Basically in the beginning if you don’t have prema, just as… a random example.
Just in the beginning you don’t happen to have prema.
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Devotee (2): What is the beginning I have said it’s now just now I am here being with
devotees in Krsna conscious place but I don’t have this pure love all the time…
Maharaja: I mean but this is a hypothetical presentation, right?
Devotee (2): No, no, just real situation. So I should start somehow. When I go through these
nine, now maybe it’s not because of… I want to be with Krsna always. But I know that this is
the method, I am…doing this and then I can come to that.
Maharaja: Yes, of course. But the point is you can come to that, but in the process of coming
to that, if you are so absorbed in the lecture that you forget about the exercise naturally
then it’s done without any separate endeavor. In other words, your attraction to Krsna
consciousness is so great that you don’t even notice the mundane, but still you have to be
cultivating it. Or if it’s more mechanical, you find that at some point either the lecture is
getting in the way of the exercise, the exercise in the way of the lecture, and you have to
make a choice. And so then it’s a mechanical choice of which is better, and then making
your choice and you progress on that path.
So Krsna consciousness can either work more mechanically or more spontaneously, it
depends on the individual. But the result will be the same. Spontaneous doesn’t mean we
just feel like it but there is no result. No, the result is there. It’s observable. Because action
will be performed through the medium for us of the material energy, so you can see that.
And endeavor, any feeling, anything will come through that medium. So it can be observed.
So not just, oh, that’s my sentiment, how do you know, you can’t see my devotion. Anybody
who would say that, then you know there is generally a lacking of devotion. Because those
who have it say they don’t, and those who don’t say they have.
Vaisnava dasa: One should not have such a belief.
Means this point that we are making that the devotional service is based on good
performance of duties.
Eternal pious deeds and temporary pious deeds are independent of each other. One does
not need the other to exist. It is said that a hunter who was filled with many sins and
misdeeds by accident fasted and kept an all-night vigil on a day sacred to Lord Siva, and
because of performing this eternal pious deed he attained devotion to Lord Hari. It is said in
Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.13.16, “vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh”: Lord Siva is the foremost
Vaisnava. Because of these words I accept that Lord Siva is supremely worshippable, and a
great Vaisnava also. Therefore by observing his holy day one can certainly attain devotion
to Lord Hari.
So in other words, I must have been Sivaratri or something, because Sivaratri they fast
and stay up all night. So for some reason this hunter who is very sinful then by accident
ended up fasting on that day for some reason and staying up all night. Maybe he was out
looking for something or he had to stay up all night, whatever like that. And so he got that
benefit, because Lord Siva is a devotee. The same way is Prahlada Maharaja, then he fasted,
stayed up all night on Nrsimha caturdasi. But both was by accident.
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Cudamani: Then you say it is possible to perform eternal pious deeds accidentally?
Vaisnava dasa: All is an accident. Even the path of karma is like that. It was by accident
that the individual soul first fell into the cycle of karma. What was that chance accident?
The followers of karma-mimamsa claim that karma has no beginning, but the truth is that
there is a root from which karma has grown.
In other words, the principle of karma and action and reaction on the bigger platform,
the Lord and His energies and all that interaction, that’s an eternal principle. But the
manifestation of it and the individual jiva’s involvement in it there is a beginning. Because
they are trying to connect themselves to the eternal, which is nice, but they are not actually
seeing it in connection with the eternal properly, they are still seeing themselves as the
controller of it. But you can’t control, it was always there, so we can’t claim it for ourselves,
but because we are involved in it we feel very comfortable and so we can control it and so
we consider that the reason of its functioning is all that it’s due to us. That’s the natural
tendency.
Like the child, the parent is providing everything. So the child takes everything for
granted and they see when they are hungry food happens, so they consider that they are the
controller of the house, they are the cause of everything. And because they like that feeling
they will always identify with that as always being eternal. The soul is eternal, so therefore
his happiness gained from his activities he will consider to be eternal.
So even though that they are big guys, study Sanskrit, know all the sastras, doesn’t mean
they don’t have this same mistake. This is vaikuntha-bhrama that it will be eternal, and
ananda-bhrama that it will be happy. Because the soul is eternal and happy and he performs
activities. The natural state the eternal activities give eternal happiness. But he is within
the material sphere, so even though he still thinks on the eternal platform in the way of
existence and happiness he is dealing with the inferior material energy it’s temporary. So it
gives a temporary result. It’s always mixed with some unhappiness there. But because of the
nature of the soul he applies that, his own nature, to the material energy because he
identifies with it.
Because remember we are always bringing everything else to us that we are the center.
So if I am eternal therefore material energy is. Not that material energy temporary I am
temporary. It’s dead matter so therefore I am just dull and dead. No, we always do it the
other way, we always bring everything to ourself.
So the soul thinks like that, so even though they are older and mature and so well
studied this is what the sastra is saying that they are uneducated, they don’t know. Because
they know so much but they actually can’t see the material world. They can’t see it for what
it is. They can’t see their relationship with it, the position, nothing. So then they come with
these philosophies, very technical, very well-thought-out. But they are well-thought-out up
to a point, at a certain point they can’t say anything, how everything is there, why it’s all
there, everything like that, why would God in the material create everything just for us to
enjoy? Because the powerful one controls everybody else. So how is it you can just go out
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and do whatever you like, why does material energy allow that? Because there is higher
principles.
The individual soul’s aversion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the accident
that is the root of karma. As that is believed to be an accident, so eternal pious deeds may
also be believed to be chance accidents.
In other words, the starting of the karma was an accident, so therefore the starting of
the spiritual. Accident meaning that the individual who is involved in it wasn’t planning it.
Not that it’s an accident that God made the creation and then by accident somebody did
something devotional and then he went, hey, wow, that’s cool. I never thought about it. Ok,
yeah, ok. No, God planned it that way. Everything is geared so that one can take up
devotional service. But the soul is not specifically interested. If he was interested why come
here? The spiritual world is so much better place to perform spiritual activity. Why come
here if that’s what you are looking for?
It’s like you have the temple room, the deities are there, the kirtana, the devotees,
everything. So that’s nice. And then you think, I have to find spiritual life, and so you walk
out of the temple, walk around the back to the garbage pile where they threw all the old
stuff and then you go looking in there. I know I can find it here somewhere. Maybe it’s in
this old plastic bag here.
So in other words, here the accident is to the soul. He wasn’t planning to get involved in
the material world, but he did. He wasn’t planning to get involved in the spiritual world, he
did. This ajnata-sukrti is there because the devotees are arranging it, so then one comes in
contact. And because of the nature of the soul he can take to either the spiritual or the
material, then he takes up one or the other. But he is not necessarily distinguishing. It’s a
matter of attraction. He is situated, he is atma-rama, but tatastha isn’t in a position you can
maintain. It is not a position you can maintain. So therefore then you either naturally
become spontaneously attracted to the spiritual or you become spontaneously attracted to
the material. That’s all. But spontaneity is the principle of bhava that platform.
But it’s also the platform of, if one is in the liberated state but one has cultivated that
devotional leaning that’s called bhava. If one is in that state and one’s not then one simply
calls it liberation. In other words, liberation is the tatastha position. One is not in the
material, one is not in the spiritual. It’s in-between. So one has to choose one or the other.
We are energy, we have to be under the protection of higher energy. So we have two
choices, see everything in relationship with God, work under yoga-maya, then function in
the spiritual world, or not see things in relationship to Krsna, therefore come to the material
world.
Devotee (1): That’s the difference between brahma-bhuta and mukti.
Maharaja: That’s the difference between brahma-bhuta and mukti, yes. Because brahma-
bhuta means it’s infused with devotional service. So that’s called bhava-sadhana. So then
bhava means that it’s spontaneous. So the point is since the soul is an individual then on the
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liberated platform they are spontaneous. Now is it going to be spontaneous spiritual or
spontaneous material? That’s the choice. So that choice is always there for the living entity.
So that he became attracted by the other, that was accident. So he said, by accident he
comes, so by accident he goes the other way.
In the Svetasvatara Upanisad (4.6-7) it is said:
“Although the two birds are on the same tree, the eating bird is fully engrossed with
anxiety and moroseness as the enjoyer of the fruits of the tree.
The enjoyer of the fruits he is in anxiety and moroseness. You are in anxiety to get it
and morose that it’s already gone.
But if in some way or other he turns his face to his friend who is the Lord, and knows
His glories, at once the suffering bird becomes free of all anxieties.”
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.51.53 and 3.25.22) it is said:
“O my Lord! O infallible Supreme Person! When a person wandering throughout the
universes becomes eligible for liberation from material existence, he gets an opportunity to
associate with devotees. When he associates with devotees, his attraction for You is
awakened. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the highest goal of the supreme
devotees and the Lord of the universe.”
“The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in the
society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association. If one hears from
devotees, the way of transcendental experience quickly opens, and gradually one attains
firm faith that in due course develops into attraction and devotion.”
So in other words, when somebody is actually eligible for liberation then he comes in
contact with the devotees. And then because as we mentioned before that’s actually the
tatastha position. Tatastha means you are not in the material, you are not in the spiritual by
consciousness, you are in the middle. So that’s the liberated state. So when one is qualified
for that he comes in contact with devotees. Because then he can make that choice. So seeing
the devotees he becomes spontaneously attracted, and so he becomes involved, so that
develops his devotion. Or if not, he comes in contact and if he doesn’t take some, then he’ll
stay in the material existence.
Devotee (1): Does that mean just the random person, I mean the new bhakta who just shows
up he is on the liberated platform…?
Maharaja: He says eligible for liberation. But what is your eligibility for liberation, that’s
there. So the thing is here, he wants answers, he wants to know what’s going on, he wants to
know, so in some way or another then Krsna arranges that he contacts the devotees. Now
what he is spontaneously attracted by then that will be individual.
Like we were reading lilamrta, like Upendra was the, just Prabhupada’s mood the
niceness of it, just being in his association that company he just appreciated that. While let’s
say like Lilavati is Prabhupada’s scholarship and understanding philosophy, Sanskrit, all
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these different things. That’s what was attractive to her. In other words, just the experience
of Krsna consciousness, chanting and all that, and authority, and the halava, of course. We
don’t want to downplay the halava.
Devotee (1): So there is going to be a mix between the spontaneous attraction to each side.
It’s 100%...eventually…
Maharaja: Yes, it will be, right now it’s all on the one side. But something will start on the
other and then that will increase. You cultivate it, it will get bigger. But of the two the
substance is greater than the shadow. The only reason the shadow has so much influence on
us because we identify as shadow, therefore it’s us that makes the material world important
and big and insurmountable. Otherwise it’s just a shadow. What’s so insurmountable about a
shadow?
That’s why Jiva Goswami says, a jiva who is actually situated themselves in prema then
they never fall down because they are actually more powerful then the whole material
creation. But before that they put themselves under, allow themselves to be controlled by
the material energy because they identify with it. Therefore the material energy, we are
1/10000 of the tip of the hair, material energy is one quarter of the cosmic manifestation, in
other words, one quarter of unlimited compared to 1/10000 of the tip of the hair. Naturally
she is more powerful. But that’s because you identify as shadow so therefore she is the total
shadow. But if you identify as servant of Krsna, you have actually situated there, then you
are dealing with substance. Substance is always greater than shadow. It’s like the person is
there and even if it’s let’s say sunset and its shadow is 50 feet long or 100 feet long it’s still
the shadow is not greater than him.
But we notice here it’s in the society of devotees, can only be discussed properly in the
society of devotees, nowhere else.
Cudamani: In your opinion is there no difference between a Hindu and a Yavana?
Because now he comes down to this, ok, all this philosophy makes sense, but their
bottom line is isn’t there any difference between a Moslem and a Hindu? Come on, we are
Hindus they are Moslems, hey, come on. And so that way then you feel, yes, we are…
Because all the philosophy is nice but then you have to apply it. So when they bring all this
they understand when they bring it down to earth it still comes out as morality and religion.
Though now they have touched that to God, but still the form they need to see is religion
and morality, in other words, dharma and artha. And the pious people understand kama
must be controlled dealt with properly. But their situation is they have controlled dharma
and artha, kama, so they want to see that in others. What they miss is that moksa there is
going from dharma, artha, kama, and then from kama getting tired of that, then they go to
moksa. So they think it’s through this process they have got to moksa. But it’s actually a
different path. The path of moksa goes dharma, moksa, like that, it goes that way. Because
then it’s that you take up the nature or the dharma of moksa instead of the dharma of artha
and kama.
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Devotee (1): Is there a difference between these two…the modes of material nature one is
under the influence of…
Maharaja: The modes, yes, that’s there. That’s there, but that’s the form of it, but not
necessarily the consciousness. So that’s what Vaisnava dasa is talking about, the
consciousness, and the devotional activity and all that that’s completely separate, it’s
completely different.
Vaisnava dasa: There are two kinds of difference: 1. spiritual and 2. material. Spiritually,
Hindus and Yavanas are not different. However, materially there is a difference.
So he is pointing out, yes, according to the modes there is a difference, but on the
spiritual platform where is the difference?
Cudamani: Why do you speak with the pompous words of the Vedanta? What is the
material difference between the Hindus and Yavanas?
Pompous words of the Vedanta, because they are karma-kandis, so they are Jaimini sutras.
Because they can’t deal with the Vedanta, it’s just so much more technical.
Vaisnava dasa: I speak of material social customs. According to the material idea, a
Yavana is untouchable. Thus, in the materialists’ idea, one should neither touch nor
associate with a Yavana. Thus, a Hindu touched by a Yavana must at once bathe with water.
Also, a Hindu should not accept food or other things from a Yavana. Because it is attained
by committing sinful deeds, a Yavana’s body is horrible and should be avoided. Therefore it
is untouchable.
In other words, the thing is what’s wrong with taking from these people, the point is it’s
been obtained by improper means. Any materialist how does he get his money, how does he
get his facility, how does he get these? It is by improper means. So one has to be very careful
about this. If the consciousness is right or there is in some way that you can connect it to
Krsna then we see it doesn’t matter. Then you are taking the principle of their connection
to the Lord, offering to the Lord and this and that. But what has to be remembered is it’s not
that it doesn’t carry with it the reactions of how it was gained. One may say, but we are
devotees. That shouldn’t happen.
But then let’s look at the other side, let us say the man gives you money, he gives you a
hundred dollars. Now you are not complaining that that money then carries the results of,
means it has that potency of its hundred dollarness, so you can take this hundred dollars and
as a devotee you can go out into the material energy and plunk on somebody’s table and
walk away with goods. We are not complaining about that aspect of it. So why should we
complain about or think it doesn’t exist that its method of how it was gotten and that it was
given to you in charity, therefore it carries with it the reactions, why wouldn’t those work?
That’s why only a brahmana accepts charity because only he is performing the sadhana that
can burn that away. But just saying we are devotees it doesn’t matter. Then that would mean
also you go out with your money and you go up to the counter plunk down your hundred
dollars, the person takes it, picks it up, looks up at you, oh, you are a devotee, it doesn’t work
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here, your money is not good, get out here. What do you mean it’s not like this and that?
And then you throw it on the floor, this is nonsense, walk out and then the next guy in the
line picks it up, ah, a hundred bucks, puts it on the counter, got, oh, ok, that’s better, yeah,
now we’ll take that.
So this ardha-kukkuöé-nyäya, we like only half the hen, that doesn’t work. It’s a complete
chicken. You get both sides. So you’ll get all the material benefits that are there, but you’ll
also get the material non-benefits. It’s just like what are the side benefits, but we also have
to ask what are the side non-benefits.
Devotee (1): On the point of the Hindu Moslem being spiritually having no differences…
Maharaja: Spiritually no differences, that’s on the platform of the soul.
Devotee (1): But on that point in terms of spiritual philosophy one’s impersonal one’s
potentially personal…
Maharaja: But the soul there is no difference. Because impersonalism is not the natural
position of the soul. The devotional position is the natural position of the soul. In other
words, prema is the natural position of the soul. Anything else means that the soul isn’t
properly situated or completely situated in its natural position.
Devotee (1): But Hindu and Moslem has nothing to do with the soul.
Maharaja: That’s the whole point that’s why on one level you see there is no difference.
That’s why if the yavana is showing devotion to Lord Caitanya then based on they are
associating with him. Like we heard that he came in and sat down and they discussed Krsna
consciousness and this and that. Did the yavana come along and bring a cow with him and
roast it up on the spit and then make burgers for everybody, and they are all going, yeah,
great, you are a devotee. No.
So in other words, on the spiritual platform there is no problem, but when you deal with
the material platform then you make distinction. Everything here is God’s creation but we
do make a distinction between a rock and a potato. We eat the potato, not the rock. While
the Vajrokitas (?) eat the rock and not the potato.
So this is the difficulty, the overlap, we see the material energy is real. It’s like talking to
the shadow and trying to work out everything in the shadow. Well, his shadow is different
than your shadow and all this and that. But that’s not what’s the important element.
Shadow has a nature.
Devotee (1): I guess the only point is he just thinks the forms and customs are different, but
there are so many more differences beyond just the form…
Maharaja: But the form, impersonalism is a form. Because it’s all material. Impersonalism is
still just as material as other forms of materialism. Because you have materialism, you have
pessimism. You have karma and jnana. In your modern terminology it comes out to be
materialism and pessimism as your basic. In other words, a materialist thinks one can be
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happy by interacting with the material energy, the results you get are good. The pessimist
says you work with it, it’s not going to make you happy, it’s not actually good. Therefore the
pessimist side comes up with all the impersonal and Buddhistic and all those kind of things,
while the material comes up with all the elements of karma. So they are both just as
mundane. You are distinguishing within mundane between higher elements of the mundane
with the lower, but then you are trying to compare that to the spiritual, the spiritual is in
one category, material is in another. In other words, within spiritual there is distinction, but
there is the distinction between spiritual and material. So the spiritual is higher, material is
lower. Within material because there is difference in spiritual the reflection naturally will
have difference. Therefore then you can find higher and lower in the material. Between
liberation and karma, jnana and karma, jnana is higher. Within karma then pious acitivities
are higher than impious activities. So like this you can keep making distinction. You have
jnana and you have karma. Technically nothing to do with each other. But that doesn’t
mean that within karma there is not distinction, and there is pious and impious. So pious is
better than impious. So that same principle this spiritual, but within material then you can
make this distinction. It’s the same principle that’s going on.
Devotee (3): How would you see the dhamavasis, we can’t make a distinction between…they
are all dhamavasis.
Maharaja: So what’s the problem?
Devotee (3): Would you see them on a material platform…?
Maharaja: No, but what is your application? In other words, you are thinking of this
question in relationship to a specific example. What’s the example?
Devotee (3): You should offer respects to dhamavasis.
Maharaja: But what does that mean it respects?
Devotee (3): Means would you associate with them just because of…?
Maharaja: No, but the thing is what is non-different?
Devotee (3): In respect to what you said because they…
Maharaja: But that’s on the spiritual platform the soul. But now when you associate with the
devotees which it says what are you associating with, what’s important? Their particular
body or social position. The reason that, so are we looking at it that the reason that
Ramananda Raya was important for the other devotees to associate with, he was the
governor of the Madras province, so very powerful and influential, is that why it was
important to associate with him? Then what was the reason?
Devotee (3): Because he was a devotee.
Maharaja: He was a devotee. And what does that mean? How do you tell a devotee from a
non-devotee?
Devotee (3): Because he was attached to serving Krsna.
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Maharaja: Yes. So that service to Krsna that’s what it’s based on, the consciousness. So
therefore then the dhamavasis are all devotees in their own right, but based on their
consciousness and activities then you decide whether you want to associate with them or
not. So Lord Caitanya’s recommendation is not. If there is some service, in that capacity,
but outside of that then not so much. Becaues their relation with Krsna is different. We
can’t see that. I mean we have hard enough trouble differentiating within practicing
devotees that it’s obvious. So one has to be careful.
So respect means what’s due to, you meet a person on the road how you would properly
deal with them. It’s not that, oh, they are not devotees, so it doesn’t matter. So we run them
over with our scooter. No, they also have a right to walk on the road. So those kind of
things. So etiquette is in place. But as far as association, no. Because in association you are
supposed to associate with those who are more advanced than yourself. And so generally
speaking you might find that some of the things they do are not more advanced. (end of
lecture)
Devotee (4): The previous point of charity, I wanted to ask what’s the difference between a
brahmana’s sadhana and a devotee’s sadhana?
Maharaja: There shouldn’t be any difference. But the thing is how he makes his money,
there is a difference. Because then you have other elements. Ksatriyas they don’t take
charity. They work for it, because they passion they get. Vaisyas they have to work
otherwise in ignorance they just want profit, so if they can get it through charity then they
work out great businesses for charity. Look at UNICEF or something. 90% of the charity
that they get goes into their infrastructure. So they do do charitable work, but they also a lot
of people get maintained in the process. So it becomes a business.
Devotee (4): To be a devotee with a brahminical nature...
Maharaja: He can accept charity, others shouldn’t. Or you go to a program and they give you
something, you don’t feel you are in the position, you give it to someone else who is, to a
devotee, or give it to the temple, to the deities, or something like that. Even Prabhupada
they’d give money, if he considered it was too crazy he’d just put it in the Hundi. I think he
was in Africa, Kenya, there is a Hindu family there, Rajasthani, who they run a very large
the biggest in the country, it might even be in Africa, of distillery. They make alcohol. So
they gave Prabhupada a donation, but Prabhupada just put it in the deity donation box,
because he didn’t want to deal himself with the karma.
Devotee (1): What about like there is different degrees of sinful livelihood let’s say. What is
if someone is like an industrialist destroying the environment, destroying the ecosystem,
making a lot of money with the rubber…chemicals, and then he donates. Is there like a
tinge…?
Maharaja: Means there will be something there, but the thing is generally you’ll see his
donations are always going to the temple and his buses always go for sankirtana and stuff
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like that. So the point is he is engaging what he is doing in Krsna’s service. So one could say,
well, that wouldn’t be good, he should do farming or something like this and that, but he is
not. It’s nice to say that, but the persons who say that let them go out and farm, I don’t see it
happening, so therefore. There may be a complaint about that, but at the same time,
everybody seems to be really happy with their computer and phone which is the same ugra-
karma as making his bus. So on that platform there is no. But in principle the thing is it’s
being engaged in Krsna’s service.
Devotee (1): But even the farmer is killing living entities, too.
Maharaja: It is, but it’s on a lower level and stuff like this, or the volume, one just has to see
what is in there. There is always going to be one living entity is living by at the expense of
another, that’s just the way it works. There is not another system. The Jain system it’s not
there. You can reduce and keep it very minimal. So that’s ideal, but you can’t get rid of it.
Devotee (1): It’s just funny because we have in our projects sustainable farming we want to
do this green preaching, but all the funds going into building these communities are coming
from not so…
Maharaja: Yes, but the point is at least it starts somewhere. Because the point is ultimately
the concept of economics and money belongs to Krsna anyway, so if you say, oh, we won’t
accept that because it’s not good. For Krsna we can accept anything. Someone wants to
donate it for the Lord, why should we complain? But it’s not that the person is not being
preached to to see its connection to Krsna. So that’s more important that he is connected to
Krsna. Then with time if the opportunity is there that they can make an adjustment in the
quality of what they are doing then that’s there, but then that environment has to be.
That would be like saying, let’s say you had a person who was a chain smoker and
therefore got lung cancer and they are extremely wealthy, so then they set up a branch of a
hospital dedicated just to treating patients with lung cancer. So then one would be saying
that’s not good, he can’t do that. But it’s good, it’s a good work. Now his smoking that’s
another question.
Devotee (1): I have another question, I was wondering what your opinion is on these social
networking sites set up, facebook, twitter?
Maharaja: Personally I don’t quite understand twitter yet, and by the time I can probably
do…
Devotee (1): It’s like a really superficial version of blogging, it’s like rather than actually
have your own page, you send out a million messages to everyone who subscribes to you and
it has to be 151 or less.
Maharaja: And then they make comments and it’s just the way that people interact. In other
words, it’s more just for interaction as opposed to getting something done necessarily.
Devotee (1): Well, no, a lot of people are taking advantage from a marketing point of view.
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Maharaja: But then everybody who is commenting is also in business and they are on the
same thing. So it will only be of value if they have the same comment.
Devotee (1): They subscribe to people in your same field…
Maharaja: So there must be twitter organizations, like you have facebook, you have myspace
or these kind of things. Then there must be twitter forums that people would even know
that you are twittering, or tweeting or whatever you are doing.
Devotee (1): I guess the application of that question is in terms of…devotees taking
advantage of them for preaching…
Maharaja: People come in contact, why not? What’s the problem? As long as it is seen in
that light. Like others like to upload the latest picture of themselves to get interaction and
get social. So that’s my point it’s association that’s one thing. But the point is what is the
association? Is it based on Krsna consciousness or is it based on something else? That’s why I
am saying they are devotees, so they say it’s automatic. Devotees so if they put up the latest
picture and this and that and trying to create social interaction based on sense gratification
then they forget that that part is not devotional.
Devotee (1): We have difficulty distinguishing…
Maharaja: That’s intelligence, that’s why buddhi-yoga is to train to be able to distinguish
between them.
Devotee (1): Where to draw the line…
Maharaja: Yes. Where to draw the line, yes, because where to draw the line depends upon
how it’s being approached and how it’s being used.
Means it’s just like we were saying, you have spiritual and material. Then within
material you can have jnana and karma. Then within karma you can have pious and
impious. And then within impious you can have impious that is actually an activity that
would be considered pious but its application is not pious, and then there is activities that
you would just consider those aren’t actually useful for forwarding social structure.
Means in other words, piety the guy has intimate relations with his wife only for the
purpose of having a child. Impious would be he just has relationships with his wife, the same
kind. In other words, it would be the kind of relationship that could produce be useful for
producing a child but that’s not the purpose, so that would be impious. Then there would be
what things wouldn’t be useful for producing a child and then that becomes there. But at
least there is some mutual consent or something like that. But then after that then it’s a
matter of let’s say you have rape or something like that.
So within something there is always a distinction. That’s the meaning duality there is
always good and bad, there is always a difference. So we have to be able to use, we are used
to using the intelligence, seeing the difference on one level of existence, so it’s not that it’s
not there. Even the person we would say is not very smart, the dumb bland (?) or something
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like that, they can tell the difference between a cute guy and a poster or a column. So they
don’t cut a profile when they are standing next to a column, but if there is some cute guy
they do. So they do have brains. It’s have where it’s being used.
So now the Vedic concept is elevate that application of intelligence, therefore you are
elevating the application of your senses and your emotions from sense gratification to piety,
sense gratification to extended sense gratification or what you would consider your subsocial
to higher to the proper social position based on dharma to that we don’t actually belong
here, you want to get out of here, to the place we do belong is the spiritual world. So you
have these five levels of consciousness. So the thing is at all levels then the body, mind, and
words is being engaged, but it’s just how. So it’s a matter of raising that. So one is looking at
one level and then complaining about another level, or taking something from each, so they
are mixing it, that’s where it gets, it’s inconsistent. They are taking the senses from one
level, the intelligence from here, the mind from here. And little things they are sharp, they
take whatever they like. It’s like mundane madhukari, they take a little bit from everywhere
and then make their honey out of it.
So the point is to understand what is the perspective by which you judge right or wrong.
But it’s got to start from understanding the nature of the soul, if you start there then you
come down how far is necessary. So we see Prabhupada in the earlier days he would stay up
on these higher levels because if you come right down to the detail it’s a bit rough and ready.
But as the devotees were purified then he could get down into that kind of detail. But
otherwise he’d keep it on a higher position because otherwise how you do. We tend to start
at the detail and then if we are fortunate we might remember the principles that it’s based
on, the higher, the descending process. But the problem is any argument it’s coming over
detail. But the point is because there is five levels of consciousness you have detail at each
level. There is common principles of all of them because the activities and all that, the basic
social interaction is the same, it’s just a matter of what form it takes. Rasa is the same.
So there appears that there is something that the platform I am at there is a detail and
then there is a principle that’s higher than that. But there is higher applications of that
principle. And so I’ll see that higher detail as something higher than what I am, I make the
mistake that that’s the detail.
Devotee (1): There is also… the example, like we drive the car, the non-devotee drives the
car, but we drive in a particular way according to our principles of etiquette.
Maharaja: Yes, but what is that based on, that’s the point, because there are also drivers. You
would be surprised to probably learn that those who are professional race car drivers
probably some when they are on the regular roads are probably some of the best drivers,
most safe, most…, considerate and everything like that, because they can notice that. Means
you are going 200 m/h, 150 m/h in a corner and you have exposed wheels and the other guy’s
wheels are interlocked with your wheels two, three inches and you are both dead. So he
can’t tell that your car is there? Just driving down the highway at 100 m/h in a …car that
don’t have exposure, they can tell, and so they are very conscious and all that. So they can
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do it very, very nicely. But they are doing it because they know what danger is there. So
that’s their basis. Someone else does it because it’s just good. No, you are supposed to follow
the rules. So you come up to the stop light, you stop there, there is no one from miles around
and you sit there and wait, because it’s good, it’s the right thing to do. Or someone is like,
who cares, we are just trying to get from here to there.
So one has to be careful seeing what’s behind it. So the devotee is driving properly, he is
driving efficiently because it’s Krsna’s work, but safely because it’s also Krsna’s car, Krsna’s
devotees, but if it comes from that. But a lot of devotees, we are devotees so we don’t care for
the rules. But yeah, the mundane inspiration to follow rules we don’t have, but the rules are
the same. Why have they made the rules? Because it’s safe, that’s why. Previously there were
no rules.
Devotee (1): And in terms of the detail of communication with Vaisnavas I think the
analysis of what something like facebook vs. email is that email is private. It’s just a personal
interaction rather facebook it’s public, everybody reads your messages, there is no…
Maharaja: So you have to consider the audience.
Devotee (1): And that and another aspect of we would be sensitive towards like really trying
to cultivate someone in public or messaging women for example that’s nothing we would do
when we use facebook.
Maharaja: Means the point is whatever is the appropriate etiquette that’s formed. In other
words, if you are talking to a group of people you speak differently than if you are talking in
private. So that’s the whole point one has to know the difference. So it’s no different, it’s
just it’s just the medium of communication is there. Language in private may be different
from language in public. Or the topics in private may be different than that in public. Or
who you talk to in private or who you talk to in public. So those same things, those
principles would remain of that, what’s the reason, and then the specific details, then you
have to apply that detail specifically to your whatever it is your blogging, or tweeting, or
whatever it is one does.
Devotee (1): But you would see it like these forums of like as more impersonal
communication as like a breakdown in society more or less in terms of less personal
interaction.
Maharaja: You could say, at the same time, in that impersonal then something like facebook
they consider quite personal because you see pictures and comments and you can say
something, you can put your two bits on the wall and stuff like that. So you have to balance
what’s there. Ideally is it would go around anyway, devotees completely absorbed. Now, to sit
in a community of hundreds or thousands of devotees but you have to be inspired in
interaction by looking on facebook about someone who is a few thousand miles away and
what they are doing with some other people you don’t even know. But previously one would
expect that one could get it from locally all that kind of inspiration, and then when one
hears something, but it’s just another medium. But one has to be careful. Because like a book
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you have to think about it, because once you make it it’s there, it doesn’t go away. While in
these other things it moves so quickly that you don’t really care so much. So the quality of it
that’s the anxiety.
Like even email the quality of communication is very bad. If it’s business, straight
business its mechanics then it’s very good, because the nature of it you don’t have to pay
attention so much to the personal element. But if it’s actually discussing philosophy or these
other things it’s actually a very bad element unless you deal with it as if it were the written,
it was actual printed word. If you are going to write a letter you wouldn’t just sit down, like
this, stick it in an envelope, because you can’t do that. You are going to have to sit down,
write the letter, then get an envelope this that, and then get it mailed. So there is a lot of,
between when you write it and it actually goes out of your hand that you know it’s into the
system it can take quite a while. So the natural because of that then you are going to, so you
write it and if it’s done nicely, great. If not, you’ll rewrite it until it works, then you send. So
there is a lot more thought. So if that same thought was put into the email then it would
have the same kind of thing, but its nature is not like that, it’s meant for business. It wasn’t
designed for human interaction. It was designed for efficiency of communication to get
things done.
Devotee (1): Designed by the military…
Maharaja: Yes, like that. So that’s what it’s for. So in that respect it’s very good. Oh, this
ticket is available on the ninth and the twelth and all that and this and that. What do you
think? Well, I think the ninth is better. Ok, so then I’ll go ahead and book it. Yes, great.
Done, that’s fabulous. Otherwise if you personally meet the guy then you wouldn’t be able to
do it so quick. But if it was some philosophy, dealing with people’s opinions like that, it’s one
of the more disgusting mediums as far as efficiency goes, because it’s absolutely cannot do
the work. People will claim that it will but there is no way that it can. It just can’t.
Because as soon as you put up your point, someone else is putting up their point, cuts
that, then it goes along for a few days, because it goes so fast, and then after the
conversation has gone on for some time, then one guy who in his mind was so important
that his work was busy he couldn’t take part in the conversation now comes in with that
same sense of importance and now drags the whole conversation all the way back to the
beginning because you can do that. Means if they are going to have a discussion like that,
then the only real way to have it is through someone who controls it. So everybody says it to
him and then he loads up what people say. It would be like a conversation, ok, this guy said
this this this this, in other words, it’s like if you have a meeting it works because there is a
chairman. If it’s just everyone goes in the room and starts talking nothing gets done. So then
this idea is that this email is going to work? No, but there has got to be someone who is
chairing. He said to me, he said to me this and that, and then you go, ok, this one has this
opinion, that one has that opinion. There is ten guys but there is actually two opinions and
they are best expressed through here and here. And so what do people think about that?
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But otherwise people can just waylay it, do anything they want, start yelling and
screaming, it’s a terrible medium of communication for that. But for getting work done it’s
really good. Because work all it is you are discussing the facts that’s it, and there is not so
much the feelings and opinions, or they can be cut down to a very simple thing. But the
other when you actually have to take bigger consideration people aren’t using it. You could
use it that way but people aren’t. They are forgetting that any efficient conversation if you
are trying to get something done is controlled by somebody. There is somebody controlling
the conversation. They are forgetting that. There will be a meeting and then you don’t
finish all your work, so, oh, we’ll put it into correspondence, but it still has to be controlled.
Devotee (1): A mediator.
Maharaja: It has to be a mediator. If there is not a mediator how will it get anything done?
These things are forgotten. In other words, you have to know the nature of the, what that
thing can do.
It’s just like I play a washboard it will get certain things, I play the saw I can get
something else. A washboard I can get rhythm. I can also get rhythm out of the saw, but I am
going to get more tones there. So you have to know what you are dealing with. It’s like they
are saying they are going to make nice melodies with a washboard, it’s not possible, it’s an
illusion. It doesn’t have the capacity.
Devotee (1): It is just the observation that a lot of senior devotees, very elevated souls, just
have nothing to do more or less with email in general or with any facebook, and they get
more done, it’s kind of a put off for someone like me. I am just contemplating whether to
throw it away or…
Maharaja: You have to see if it works, like I know two devotees that you don’t see them
much but they have their blogs and a thousand people log onto their blogs. And they are
really, all they do is, I mean one of them, all he does is discuss philosophy really hardcore
kind of philosophy, and it becomes a very lively conference because everybody either agrees
with him or against him, and so it’s just all this heavy stuff on Mayavadis and this and that.
But a thousand people are on their blog. So that’s the way they can do some preaching.
So you would have to see how it’d work. Means yes, it just have to see how it’d work. If
Prabhupada was here whether he’d be impressed by it I don’t think so, but. But if you can do
some stuff, nice. Because before it was the web page this that, but now even that’s kind of a
little bit more…, the blog is more, because it’s more interactive, it’s more the personal
element, it’s more dynamic. You can change it, put in more things in that, it doesn’t have to
look all so neat. While your web page has to look good all the time. So like that you have to
figure out what works. So whether it is the web pages or blogs or whether it is tweets or
whatever it is. You just have to watch out for felix.
Devotee (5): Can I ask you a question about the example the mataji was saying about the
exercises. I know that quite few devotees they have been neglecting their body because they
have just been trying to do devotional service. So now they came to a point where they
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understood they have to do some exercise to increase their capacity to keep on doing
service. What would be an example of connecting that directly?
Maharaja: Those things aren’t connected directly. Like taking your bath is not direct.
Worshiping the deity is direct, but you have to take a bath to do that. So the point is what I
am saying here is there is every chance she, you are saying she is doing the exercise because
you need the healthy fit for Krsna and this and that. That’s true. But what was the original
inspiration why the exercise was taken up?
Devotee (5): Usually it’s some personal benefit.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s some personal benefit. That’s the point, that’s why we are making a
distinction here, because then it becomes even more secondary. It becomes a little one more
step back. And then because they are trying to make it Krsna conscious, which is good, then
they listen to a lecture, which is great, because that’s direct devotional service. But what I
am saying is, one can say, well, then that’s good enough. But the problem is then if they
change their mood on the exercise or not feel so embarrassed that it’s mundane and they
don’t have a taste for it, it’s like they like the lecture, means they are going to do the
exercise and they like listening to the lecture because the exercise can be boring, then
they’ll listen to the lecture, they like listening to the lecture. But if the point is that they are
listening to the lecture because they feel that the exercise is a bit mundane. So they don’t
want it to be mundane, so they listen to the lecture. But after they have done the exercise
steadily for a long time and getting good results they won’t feel embarrassed about it. So they
may stop listening to the lecture.
That was the point being made there, one can engage what is one’s natural position in
Krsna’s service, but one has to be very careful to see that will it create a long-term benefit,
means is there a progression there.
Devotee (1): Where would we put something like Srila Prabhupada’s morning walks in terms
of it’s for the sake of exercise because it was an order from his doctor and then
simultaneously he is doing so much preaching.
Maharaja: You see his point is if you walk then your digestion is good. Your digestion is good
your health is good. Your health is good you can preach. And since he is out walking then
they can talk.
Devotee (1): But I am wondering for someone like Srila Prabhupada on his level of
consciousness is there a difference between the direct and indirect?
Maharaja: Because they’ll see what’s working with it also, so they’ll see Krsna there involved
in it, and it will remind them of Krsna. Krsna walks out into the field, goes into does this
and that, and so they’ll either they won’t really see the mundane because they are absorbed
in the element of Bhagavan, or they’ll see these other elements of Krsna’s working in the
material energy how it functions.
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So the point is direct or indirect is not the problem as long as it’s connected. That’s the
main point. I only make the distinction because then, the tendency is to not make the
distinction and think that you are doing your exercise and that is as good as someone else
who is worshiping the deity or distributing books. This kind of indiscretion is made.
Devotee (6): I was actually wondering about my chanting this morning because I walked
during japa.
Maharaja: If it works.
Devotee (6): …I was thinking the people that are sitting there…getting any more benefit…
Maharaja: It depends on what it is, means the tendency is if there is any vata in the
constitution then movement makes them feel peaceful. Because air when it moves is
considered pure. So therefore if someone has more air in the body as a constitution the
tendency is they like to move. So for them the mind is more peaceful and then they are
absorbed more. But someone else then if they move it gets distracted, so therefore they are
sitting. Because in pranayama when the air is moving the mind is disturbed, and when it’s
stopped that’s when it’s focused. So you have to find the balance. So if it gets the effect, if
you will be more focused walking walk, if you will be more focused sitting sit, and it may
from different days be different.
Devotee (7): …after class we can talk for 15 minutes, one guest has come from Delhi, he has
seen gurukula he wants to meet you.
Maharaja: Well, seeing gurukula is one thing, meeting me is another.
Devotee (7): …he wants to meet…has some questions…
Maharaja: So what are these questions?
Devotee (7): He is an architect.
Maharaja: Architect, oh, ok.
Devotee (8): Landscape architect. I was wondering I just wanted to see the place, I just was
wondering if there were any principles that in particular important to the place. I in
particular like the… and I just saw this now, both of them are fine, they are very beautiful, a
lot of care. I was wondering because we have been doing this in… Are there any principles
which…?
Maharaja: Vastu is there, at least over here, I am not sure over there, the vastu element is
there. So that will be for like placement of things, what’s there, and weights what’s high
what’s low, what kind of trees that goes things like that will be there. But otherwise the
main things that are here. Oh, another principle is that the refined environment helps
develop the finer brain tissues. So if it’s a nice environment it’s good for the development of
God consciousness in that it will develop the finer aspects of the brain that are useful for
understanding Krsna consciousness. So therefore the aesthetic element is there.
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Then because of the nature of it, the brahminical lifestyle, the brahmacaris, all this,
then it’s kept simple. So what is the simplest way that you can deal with these things. Then
there will be the aspect of. So the aesthetics we have done, simplicity, then those choices of
what aesthetics what simplicity then you have the element of tradition. Tradition is there
because it worked. Tradition is not something that is impractical. It’s actually if you
understand what it is there it works, that’s why it became a tradition.
The guy made his pabaji (?) and he put a particular spice and it’s really good and
everyone likes it, so now he puts it every time. So that’s tradition. Why is it like that, why
does he put that spice? Because people liked it.
So tradition then you have to see what is there, what is there in the traditional
aesthetics within what is there within the Vedic culture, what are the aesthetics or other
elements that you can borrow from other aspects that are based on that and just applications
that would work. And then it has to be practical, it actually has to work. In other words, you
have a lifestyle here what you see here should work for that lifestyle.
The kids can get around, get to the places, they have places they can keep their stuff,
they can take their bath, they can do everything, they can move nicely between them. And
then you consider the weather. So the weather here it gets very hot in the summer and so
you are dealing with heat more than you are with cold. So therefore there will be more trees.
Like these kind of gardens that we have in their more you can say traditional environment
they would use much less trees. But the places where they are it’s cold, it never gets hot. So
you can have this huge open areas and it’d be very nice and comfortable because it’s not hot.
But when it’s hot you want trees. You want to stay out of the sun. So then that will add an
element to it of the practical.
Devotee (8): How are you dealing with humidity here?
Maharaja: Dealing with humidity?
Devotee (8): Large openings, cross-ventilation.
Maharaja: Basically yes, it’s just as open as possible. Like you see here it’s all open and that’s
up and this is down. So because of the difference in that there is always air moving through
here. So you deal like that. This place is built like for, like if you come over here and then
turn around and look that way. You don’t see much garden except far out. But if you go back
there and look this way you’ll see more garden. So it’s based off the class. Means that see
there is a garden over there, there is a ten-foot long garden, but I can’t see it. And why is the
garden there, because someone who sat there can’t see me. So only the places that I can see
are places where people will sit. So places where I can’t see that’s where you put the garden.
From here I just see bricks and people, but if you sit over there and look this way you see
gardens.
Devotee (8): And the choice of plants?
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Maharaja: The choice of plants it depends upon where it is. Choice of plants you have the
vastu aspect of course. But the other point is if it’s down in this level means it does not die
in a flood. And if it’s up there then most of what’s up there because we started down at this
level so we were on this level for 20 years so most even what’s up there is flood-proof. But we
have added in some plants that do have problem with flood, like the campas and those kind
of things. But otherwise the principle is that, there is also the element it should look nice,
but ideally if it gives flowers, either it gives flowers or it just on its own looks nice, it does
something, it covers the ground or does some aspect like that. So it’s either creating shade
and we use a lot of palms because you can control, you know how big it will be. While other
trees you can’t necessarily tell, they go all over the place. So they are much harder to deal
with.
So the palms you can control. It should add to what it looks like, the aesthetics, it should
generate flowers. Because there is brahmacaris, there is students, there is kids, you can’t use
fruit trees. You can only put fruit trees where it’s only adults or just an orchard. Only a few
fruit trees I think can be around where kids are, like bale or pomegranate, but kids don’t
generally worry about them, they are too difficulty. Mangos you just pick it and eat it.
Pomegranate it’s a whole trip for a kid, so they don’t even bother. Bale fruit what are you
going to do with that? You can’t eat it, you need sugar, you need to… sugar and stuff like
this, so you just leave it alone. So the trees are safe. In other words, if you put fruit trees
where there are kids the trees aren’t safe.
Devotee (8): And the kids.
Maharaja: Yes. They kids fall from the tree.
Devotee (6): I experienced I was a child eating the cherry that was sprayed and I had to get
my mouth washed out.
Maharaja: So the two they don’t go so.
So basically that, aesthetics, tradition, it has to be practical and simple.
Devotee (8): What about maintenance?
Maharaja: Whatever is going to be the least amount of maintenance, low maintenance is
always the preferred. Therefore the gardens, lots of rocks. Rocks are pretty good they don’t
die in a flood, they don’t die in a drought. They are really good like that.
Devotee (8): And is there any leaning towards indigenous how long…
Maharaja: Whatever is local, like this they make a lot of …bricks. So that’s available, so
that’s what’s used. Everything you see here is all construction material.
Devotee (8): I meant specifically for plants.
Maharaja: Plants it’s not necessarily it has to be indigenous, because nowadays so many of
these things are so, it’s just like pana is not indigenous, but it’s been here for hundreds of
years. A…palm is not indigenous, it is from some place in Brasil or something. So if it works.
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But otherwise if there is local stuff that works then we use it. Like the fern around the
corner, that’s indigenous. So certain things are. Like those things going out of the wall are
indigenous. Those things going up the wall the indigenous. The rocks are indigenous.
Devotee (6): I have never really noticed all these…details. Now that we are talking about
them I am getting a bit of sense of how beautiful…
Maharaja: Yes, it’s all careful. And we use, the main thing we use is brick because that’s
what’s available here. Let’s say if you are more north you might use more wood. So here it’s
bricks, bamboo, that’s the local thing. So if you are in south you’d use more rocks, tiles,
things like that. It’s cooler so the consideration of more openness, things like that. But here
it’s hotter, so you want to create shade without blocking the wind, so palm trees do that
really well. Because you have a canape but it’s open. Here also because of the flood we have
gone up, so your space is very small. So you have to have things that use less of a footprint or
you have multiple usages.
Devotee (8): The flood is almost annually?
Maharaja: Previously it was very irregular, then they put it in the fareka (?) dam and then it
was every nine years, and then somehow or another due to lack of good management then it
comes up can be every year, every couple of years. So originally this design was going to be at
this level, the 9 meter level, and so that was what the whole school is designed at, so it would
have been much more spread out, there would have been much bigger open gardens and
stuff like that. But then we had in five years four floods and in this natural environment
then there is a lot of trouble, because here the floor is, these bricks aren’t cemented, so then
if there is a flood it remains muddy and stuff for a while, stuff like this. We just went up. So
that level on the top of the wall is a 12.5 meter level. That’s picked as the main kind of upper
level more essential because that’s the 2000 flood was 11.80. So that’s only 70 cm above the
2000 flood, which is no one else works on the 2000 flood, everyone else works on the regular
floods. But we previous to 2000 we are working on the ’78 flood which was I think 10.6 or
10.8. There has been floods up there, but most of them are around 9.9, 10. Like in here the
floods are…this much water or this much water. The last floods are all in here. If I had
known it, because I didn’t know about, because I asked information before and people told
me it’s 10.8, 10.6, but those were the bigger floods. If I had known that then this, this plint is
at 9.6, I would have put it at 10 or to just raise the building 40 cm and then that would have
been out of all these little floods. Because here I picked still it’s the 9 meter is the bottom
level, I would have picked 10.
But the temple they choose 8, 8.5, which means if there is a lot of rains in the rainy
season, the Ganga gets a little bit full and the water table is high, then in the temple, I mean
in that side you can have this much water sitting around. So I found at 9 meters the lowest
you can go in this kacha environment. If you have a pakva environment then I wouldn’t go
below probably 8.75, 8.8, 8.75. But they seem to have chosen, I think the official thing for
the project is 8. But then you would have to have a system with canals and pumps to take
the water out, so that to me is not simple. To them that’s easy, you don’t throw dirt. You
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save money throwing dirt but you have to put in a canal system with pumps and this and
that. To me that’s complicated. To me I would spend the money, put the dirt, raise the
whole place up to the 9 meter level and then you don’t have to do anything.
Devotee (8): Non-dependent on anything.
Maharaja: Yes, non-dependent on anything. It’s just it’s already there, the dirt doesn’t go
away. It’s just sitting there. So it’s done. Like you find in the grhastha area they have all
these little things underneath, but you find you can’t do anything underneath because, one,
they are too low, and two, they always flood. So they are always wet, damp and like this and
that. While all they would had to, if they had raised it a little bit more then they would be
able to get a usable floor out of it, or more they could have raised the ground up a little bit
more so that they could actually use it underneath nicely. So like that it’s just a matter of
individual what you feel is important.
In other words, you are going to spend money it’s just where you want to spend money.
So I don’t mind spending money on dirt. But other people don’t like spending money on
dirt. They want to spend it on something else. But to me with dirt you can do everything.
Devotee (1): Would you say that the claim that due to melting glaciers the Ganga may not
even exist…time.
Maharaja: Ganga has always been there. The glacier is just as a medium that comes through,
the Ganga is coming from the higher planets. What do they talk about? It’s coming from
glacier?
Devotee (1): But like Sarasvati went underground for example.
Maharaja: That’s there, but it’s not that she is not there. The thing is all these doomsday
people they can say these things for a long time. They have always been there. When I was a
kid my grandmother had these magazines, regular magazines. I remember one I think it was
called UFO even, and it’s always about UFO sitings and all this and that and all kinds of
occult weirdo stuff like this and that, I am not even sure whatever it is. And then she had
another one that was always talking about conspiracies and this and that. Now devotees just
got into conspiracies in the 90s, but I grew up in the 60s, that’s… my grandmother was. So
it’s like they are thinking it’s new. But a grandmother she was old. Because this was a vogue
in the 30s, and now because it’s fashionable, but otherwise before it was all oriental and all
these things are all part of the culture back in the 1800s, the mid 1800s, late 80s, it’s very
common all these different kind of things. So all these things have always been there. So
there is always the thing.
Means how much, how long have they been saying the end of the world? We have 2000
and Y2K. But why is it Y2K? I was supposed to be Y1K. And then it was actually supposed to
be just 100. They were saying at 100 there was going to be destroyed the whole world, 100
years after Christ then everybody was there saw Christ gets it together, maybe they are kids,
and by 100 years everyone has lived their life and then they all go wherever what happens
when everything is destroyed. It didn’t work, so they thought, oh maybe it’s another zero. So
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then they put it 1000. So then when 1000 came people stopped ploughing the fields, let their
animals loose, just went into prayer, and when nothing happened, then, oh, maybe it’s 2000.
Devotee (1): But we do consider that climate aberrations are due to like impious activities,
demigods.
Maharaja: That’s there, but the point is what does it matter?
Devotee (1): Well, in terms of practical matters like construction estimates and forecasts
like that, and to take that weather…
Maharaja: The only thing is just weather gets worse. So you make your buildings and then if
the weather is always rainy then you put some covers to go from one place to another. But it
still has the same principles on which you deal. Because you can’t tell what it’s going to do,
all these doomsday… say so many things and it never happens. Things are changing, but it
always does this. They take it that this is the only time in history it’s ever happened. But
there is always getting more warm or getting more cold. I mean there was that time in
Europe that the currant that goes from the Indian Ocean it goes down around Africa and
comes up and then just where England and France are just there it turns and then goes
underneath and then goes, so the cold water goes all the way down to like Indonesia, and
then it comes back up and then it catches all the warmth from the Indian air motions and
then it goes around. That’s why England it’s not freezing cold, because of that. But at one
time then that stopped, and it wasn’t modern man doing something stupid in the way of
industry, it just stopped. And then you could say, well, that’s forever. But then it started
again.
So it’s just, in other words, people are going to experience whatever they do. So you deal
with what’s there. So that’s why we try to consider the heat and this and that. If it gets too
bad then we have to put in a big monster AC or something, cover the whole thing in glass
and then put an AC.
Devotee (1): I noticed…
Maharaja: That’s because we have the yajna there. But in any case they make too much
noise. Once the yajna has gone then we may redo it and put in fans that are quiet.
Devotee (1): The yajnas that are here.
Maharaja: The Saturday yajna, that’s why the ceiling is so black. Because otherwise you have
a fan there, I don’t think that they are meant for sitting over large fires for an hour and a
half.
Does that make sense? Like that, so that’s the basic thing here. Whether others have a
philosophy of their vernacular that I can’t say. But I am saying that’s what we have had and
worked on all these years. (end)
April 8, 2010
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Maharaja:
Cudamani: In your opinion is there no difference between a Hindu and a Yavana?
Vaisnava dasa: There are two kinds of difference: 1. spiritual and 2. material. Spiritually,
Hindus and Yavanas are not different. However, materially there is a difference.
Cudamani: Why do you speak with the pompous words of the Vedanta? What is the
material difference between the Hindus and Yavanas?
Because he is saying here, you are talking all this nice philosophy, but what’s actually the
material difference? Because he is saying there is material and spiritual.
Vaisnava dasa: I speak of material social customs. According to the material idea, a
Yavana is untouchable. Thus, in the materialists’ idea, one should neither touch nor
associate with a Yavana. Thus, a Hindu touched by a Yavana must at once bathe with water.
Also, a Hindu should not accept food or other things from a Yavana. Because it is attained
by committing sinful deeds, a Yavana’s body is horrible and should be avoided. Therefore it
is untouchable.
Through sin he has gotten this form, so that’s the element that makes it untouchable.
But he’ll bring out, but the point is if they are devotee then that piety is beyond the
material, so now their position is they are situated spiritually. So the material is not
considered any more. You consider the material when you are dealing on the material
platform. But when you are dealing on the spiritual platform the material is not considered.
So then also we’ll see here the position on preaching, associating he is not doing let’s say
the puja or something like that, but that’s another consideration. If they are a devotee and
practicing it doesn’t matter the background. So even though the birth is obtained through
impiety that doesn’t actually have any meaning when you are dealing with the devotional
element.
But now seeing, they see the soul there is no difference in the soul, so what’s happening
here these so-called pro-Vedic personalities they are actually seeing not through the eyes of
knowledge like they think they are, but they are seeing through the eyes of passion. Because
passion you’ll say the souls are different, it’s a different soul, it’s a yavana soul or it’s a Hindu
soul, but that’s the mode of passion. To not be able to see the soul that’s ignorance. So they
are seeing that’s, but they are seeing it as separate, not that they are all the same quality, just
their covering happens to be different. So therefore you deal with the covering that is
appropriate. The consciousness is not very high, they are more absorbed in the covering, you
deal with them according to the covering. The consciousness is very high, therefore the
covering other than basic etiquette is not so important.
Cudamani: If this is so, then how can the Hindus and Yavanas be the same spiritually?
Please clearly explain.
Because he wants to move it from the spiritual to the material because on the spiritual
platform his argument is weak, on the material platform it’s strong, at least he feels that way.
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But now he is trying to say, because we were saying, because bhakti is based on morality,
then he’ll say spirituality is based on material, because he is following the ascending process
rather than the descending. Means he is following descending in that he is following the
Veda and everything but his interpretation of it and his dealing with it is ascending because
it’s speculation, it’s speculative knowledge.
Vaisnava dasa: The scriptures declare:
“O best of the Bhrgus, the holy name of Lord Krsna delivers the chanter.”
These words mean that the Yavanas and everyone else can attain the supreme spiritual
goal of life by chanting the holy name of Lord Krsna. In this way the Hindus and Yavanas
may become equals. A human being who does not perform eternal pious deeds like chanting
Lord Krsna’s name is declared by the scriptures to be “dvi-pada-pasu” (an animal pretending
to be a human being). This is because such a person has no faith in the holy name of Lord
Krsna. Although such a person may have taken birth as a human being, he is not really
human. In truth he is an animal.
Dvi-pada-pasu means two-legged animal. So it appears to be a human being. It looks like
one but it actually isn’t, it’s an animal. Because why do we say someone is an animal? It’s the
consciousness. So the point is if the consciousness is not actually on the human platform
which means God consciousness then they are actually just two-legged animals. Some are
more pious and some are less pious. Like you see deer is very quiet and peaceful and live in
harmony, and others then they don’t have such piety.
The Mahabharata explains:
“O king, a person whose past pious deeds are small cannot have faith in Lord Govinda,
the remnants of food offered to Him, His holy name, or His devotees.”
So in other words, someone who doesn’t have faith in Krsna and the holy name, the
power of prasadam, the association of the devotees, that means their pious credit is less. So
it’s not a matter of doubting these four, it’s a matter of what is the best application how to
do this. But if we doubt the power that’s impiety or in this case lack of piety. Their
devotional piety is less, therefore these things are thought.
Eternal pious deeds, which purify the soul, are called “great pious deeds”. Temporary
pious deeds, which are performed without spiritual faith, are called “small pious deeds.”
So now you can tell the difference, in other words, what’s big and what’s small.
The remnants of food offered to Lord Krsna, Lord Krsna, Lord Krsna’s holy name, and
the pure Vaisnavas — these four are spiritual. They reveal the spiritual truth.
So even prasada is revealing. So if someone asks you, a new bhakta, who is your guru?
Then you can say maha-prasada. So here it’s according to, you can do, it reveals the truth.
Cudamani (with a smile): What kind of talk is this? This is just the Vaisnavas’ fanatic
dogma.
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Because he is saying dogma because you can’t explain it, it’s just an unquestioned truth.
You ask why, oh, we don’t talk about it. That’s dogma. You can explain it it’s not dogma.
People may try to call it that but technically it’s not. Know that dogma simply means you are
not willing to discuss it because there is no explanation. It’s just an accepted fact. That’s
dogma. But if it’s something you can explain philosophically, it’s not dogma. It may be fact.
So you say this is a pillar. No, no, it’s a mountain goat. No, it’s a pillar. No, I think it’s a
Ferrari. No, it’s a pillar. I think it’s a washing machine. Why do you always say it’s a pillar,
this is dogmatic, how come you can’t be flexible, broad-minded, liberal. No, that’s not
dogmatic.
How can rice, dahl, and curry be spiritual? There is nothing that you will not claim.
So now they are saying, it’s like you guys claim everything spiritual. But that’s true,
that’s Vedanta, everything you see is. And this guy is an impersonalist and then they can’t
see everything is spiritual. So that’s the problem that’s why they are not actual real
impersonalists. It’s the impersonal category of philosophy, but they are not actually bona
fide, they are not Brahmavadis, they are Mayavadis, because they’ll say it’s all illusion.
Because a real spiritualist everything is spiritual. It’s an illusion to think it’s not spiritual.
But a Mayavadi says it’s an illusion to think it exists. So even though they are talking about
Brahman eternal existence they are saying it’s an illusion means there is no existence. So
actually they are voidists. You understand how it is that the Mayavadis actually it’s covered
Buddhism? Because Buddhism is there is nothing at all, it’s just void. But they simply say,
well, no, the Brahman is there, that’s the only thing that’s there, everything else is illusion.
So it’s just they have covered it by giving the Vedic interpretation of Brahman. So instead
of calling it void or Mu or whatever it is that they like to call. I wonder if they get any
benefit because the Mu is like the sound of the cow if they get any pious credits. I guess it’s
better than if it was meow, absorb yourself in meowness.
So the Buddhists and the Mayavadis say it’s an illusion, it doesn’t exist. Brahmavadis say
it exists but it’s Brahman, the illusion is thinking it’s not Brahman. So that’s why even
though he is here he can’t understand Vedanta, because actually they are Buddhists. Though
if someone is studied in Vedanta you do have Mayavadis who know Vedanta but they still
miss this point, they think it’s all illusion. Because if it’s all illusion then that means their
words are illusion, the books that they are studying from are illusion, their whole process
and sadhana is illusion. So then why are they so happy to be situated in illusion? And then
they are claiming one illusion is better than the other. So therefore they are making
distinction even though they are saying they are impersonalists, they make no distinction,
it’s all one. So it’s all one what does it matter if he is a sannyasi living in Varanasi studying
Vedanta or he is a complete gross materialist living in Bombay enjoying himself? If the
illusion is illusion what does it matter? So their process doesn’t make sense by their own
definition. It makes sense according to our definition. But according to their definition why
are they even following it? It’s contradictory. So they always get caught up in this.
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Just an example how they get caught up and they don’t know what to do. I think it was it
would have been back I think in the 70s or something, 70s or like that. One boy would come
to the temple and claim, it’s all one this and that. The devotees are talking personal…there
is big arguments going on. And then this devotees comes along and says, it’s all one. Yes, it’s
all one. So give me your wallet. The guy pulls out his wallet. He says, it’s all one, so it’s yours,
it’s mine, it’s everybody’s, it’s all Brahman. So he opened the wallet pulled out a bunch of
money and handed him back the wallet. He says, now you shouldn’t get disturbed, because
it’s all one. So if I have the money or you have the money, what does it matter? So then his
false ego, to maintain his philosophy he had to agree to part with the money. So either he
would have accepted Krsna consciousness or he would have given a donation to Krsna
consciousness. In either way he benefited.
Vaisnava dasa: Do what you like, but please do not criticize the Vaisnavas. That is my
request. In a debate, only the various arguments should be considered.
His point is if you are following argument or debate you don’t attack the individual. You
just you are dealing with the point being made. This point was made you counter that point.
You don’t take it off into something else, oh, you guys are always, no, like that. No, that’s
not debate. That’s just an expression of feelings, emotions, attachments. So he is saying,
don’t do that because you are dealing with Vaisnavas, that is my request. Because we are
debating here, so just stick to the debate.
Why do you need to verbally attack the Vaisnavas? The remnants of foods offered to the
Lord are beyond the touch of the material world. One should not eat foods that are not thus
offered to the Lord, for eating the remnants of food offered to the Lord illumines the way to
the spiritual world and drives away all that is foolish and material.
Because even for here smarta, everything he eats must be offered to Lord Visnu. Even
though they are not devotees they have to worship Saligram. Because to worship any
demigod technically if you are going to follow the Vedic process of upasana-kanda you have
to worship Saligram. They are brahmanas, brahmanas worship Saligram. Then having
worshiped Saligram then the remnants of that that can be offered to the demigod. So even
for them their process they have to follow this. But because they are materialists and they
see everything as material, it’s just a combination of matter, and you perform the rituals, you
chant the mantras therefore you adjust the matter through the influence of apurva, but it’s
you who makes, apurva has to work according to your direction. So in the earlier stages of
Karma-mimamsa apurva would be related to God, but we see as time goes then they are not
actually relating it to God because it’s not so important, because apurva has to do what you
have done. You did the karma therefore apurva has to give the results.
So actually you are the controller, so there is not the supreme cause, means they’ll
accept these four stages of causation but they take it that the operational cause is the main,
because if you don’t operate they can’t do these things. What he’s missed is that the
operation that you can do why does it work, who created that? You can take a knife and cut
a potato and it actually cuts, but who grew the potato, who made the knife? That they don’t
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consider. So they don’t understand. They don’t know which is first, the chicken or the egg.
Because they see chickens come from eggs, then they think the egg is first, but the chicken is
first. So God created chickens, and then from there you got eggs.
Eating the remnants of food offered to the Lord illumines the way to the spiritual world and
drives away all that is foolish and material. So one makes great spiritual advancement by
honoring prasada.
Therefore Sri Isopanisad (Mantra 1) explains:
“Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned
by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are
set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they
belong.”
In other words, one doesn’t take more. So in other words, here is the thing like we were
discussing before, why is let’s say stealing bad? Now if you ask what will be an answer, or
what will be the answer? So the answer should be that you don’t take other things because
they don’t belong to you. Everything belongs to God. So He has given us a quota, that we
stick to. We take something else then we are stealing from God. But the more mundane
perception is, no, you are stealing from that other person. So that’s bad. But why is that bad?
Because if you steal their stuff they can’t enjoy. And since enjoyment is the basic principle,
since kama is the main thing, to enjoy yourself, to enjoy life, then by stealing others’ stuff
they can’t enjoy. And so one who is on the platform of prana-maya instead of just caring
about your own sense enjoyment you care about others’ also. Not that you give up yours, you
just care, you include others. I am enjoying, I want to be happy, let everybody be happy.
While the more self-centered is let me be happy, I don’t care what that takes. Even if others
are unhappy, fine, as long as I am happy.
So then this is the platform of morality. Your concern is simply you can’t take other
people’s things or do things that are improper because then that makes a problem for others
to enjoy themselves. That is the basis of morality. And that will take actually a smart
moralist to be able to explain. Generally it’s just, oh, I feel, everybody knows. They don’t
have an explanation.
Devotee (1): What if you like break into a non-devotee’s garden and take his flowers and
offer them to the deity?
Maharaja: I see, break into a non-devotee’s garden, take his flowers, and offer them to
Krsna. Then we could discuss that, then you could say, well, what if we don’t break in, it’s
just open, free for everyone to take. The point is if it’s offered to Krsna then everything
becomes nice, but at the same time there is social etiquette. So because that person think
they are his flowers therefore socially that is respected. And if you want to adjust their
feelings on that then you have to do it through methods that are approved, in other words,
take the guy to court and then show him that flowers come from the earth, he is not
creating that process, so it’s a universal principle, therefore everybody can enjoy the flowers.
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Try it, maybe you’ll win. Then that gives you all the flowers in anyone’s garden are there for
you to offer.
So the social etiquette is there. But the point is the social etiquette is still based by
Krsna. So that’s his quota. So it’s God’s flowers that He has given to this person. So if you
want to offer them to God, go to that person and ask, can we take some flowers for offering
to the deities? Then it becomes devotional service. Otherwise you steal them, he gets ajnata-
sukrti, but he also may develop an attitude of disrespect towards the Vaisnavas.
Devotee (1): If you get caught.
Maharaja: If you get caught, of course. But we are taking it that how clever is the person, ok,
if they don’t get caught, that’s another thing. But at the same time it’s still the same
principle, they are God’s flowers. So because they are God’s flowers, therefore you are
offering them. So is it a matter of you just taking flowers for God or one likes to steal?
At least for one’s own personal development one has to look at these fine points.
Because otherwise one may make mistake and actually be engaged in, one’s devotion may by
mixed and one won’t know it. So that’s why the analyzation is there.
In other words, it’s offered to Krsna it’s nice. You see that everything belongs to Him
that’s nice. But at the same time there is the etiquette.
Devotee (1): That would seem like compared to an eternal pious deed that the etiquette
would pale in comparison in weight.
Maharaja: The etiquette will but the point is you are also looking at long-term thing. So
maybe, ok, you got something there, but in the long-term? Just like let’s say, ok, you take the
aspect of a change shop (?). You know the change shop?
Devotee (1): A pitch?
Maharaja: No, the change shop is they give you a hundred bucks to buy the ten dollar book
and then you somehow or another keep the hundred dollars. Ok, you can talk them out of it,
you may get it, you have may have got it. So you think you are great, you got a hundred
dollars for Krsna. But the thing is you have gotten ten dollars of voluntary, 90 dollars of
non-voluntary so he may or may not appreciate it afterwards. So in the long-term there is a
problem.
Because if you notice all the places where they were doing the change shop they can’t
even walk into the building. So was that actually good? Great, you have the temple, did
fabulous, you made three altars, put onyx on the walls, and then now they can’t even pay
the bills. So if you are dealing on the eternal platform how eternal is that? So that’s why it
may be in the beginning used but as one matures and becomes more sophisticated one stops
using those, not because it’s not moral, because it’s not beneficial for God consciousness,
because that’s the basis. God consciousness is the basis of all morality. Morality comes from
God consciousness, not the other way around.
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Cudamani is saying God consciousness comes from morality. Vaisnava dasa says morality
is coming from God consciousness. This is actually the debate. The real debate is what is the
basis, spiritual or material? Does that make sense? Not convinced.
Devotee (1): Well, you spoke about in terms of ISKCON’s point of view, it may not be
beneficial in the long-term, but from that person’s point of view…
Maharaja: The person’s point of view he will have gotten that benefit but the thing is do you
want them to take advantage now or later? Let’s say like the person gave the money, bought
the book. But he felt that he wasn’t dealt with appropriately by that devotee. So now he has
the book. Now if he feels he wasn’t appropriately dealt with, how much chance is there that
he is going to read the book? Will he keep the book? He might keep the book, he might not.
There is a lot of books in garbage cans. Of course, devotees have become devotees from
looking in those garbage cans and finding the book. They were looking for something else
and they found. It’s like, what was it, Dhruva Maharaja, I was looking for pieces of broken
glass but I found a jewel. So I was looking for some old food or something in the garbage can
and I found a Bhagavad-gita. But that’s Krsna’s arrangement, not the arrangement of the
devotee who sold the book.
So now this person may stay away from Krsna consciousness. So that credit of staying
away goes to the person who sold the book, so it’s a mixed result. But if it’s done in such a
way the person is happy with it, then it’s more direct. He may read the book or he may just
have liked to have done and he puts it on his shelf. But that aspect of the willingness to
engage again in further pious activities, because it’s an accumulation of that that makes one
into a devotee, that may be put off for some time, it may be in this lifetime he doesn’t want
to see devotees. So they have got the eternal benefit, but when can they get the benefit?
Devotee (1): I understand when it’s quite gross, he was disturbed by the interaction. But I
am just trying to understand philosophically why if he is not aware he is being cheated, why
shouldn’t we just steal a little bit if he doesn’t know if we can’t get caught?
Maharaja: But the point is what is your benefit of stealing it?
Devotee (1): The ajnata-sukrti will build up…
Maharaja: Yes, if you are seeing it purely from that then that’s nice, but generally we see
that the point of stealing it from it there, one is, is a mixed thing of benefiting the person
and then the after mangala-aratika announcements of who collected the most Laksmi
points. Because otherwise why are Laksmi points mentioned? Why not just books? Five big
books and this much Laksmi points. Why? Because they want to point out that I got more
Laksmi. I sold only three books but I got Laksmi for ten books, because I just happened to
bump into a bunch of slows that were coming back from boot camp.
So that’s there but then if they want to do that then they should take the Laksmi points
and divide them into which were direct like the person willingly gave and which ones then
they actually took. If you are going to get that, fine, but that fine is only to bring out your
glory, not the quality of the service. Of course, Vaisnavas will interpret it that way that you
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have done this service for Krsna, which you have, but at the same time, the individual has to
be careful in what is their motive. In other words, Vaisnavas have one way in looking at it,
we look at it from our perspective. So there is benefit.
In other words, if you can get, but they are already serving, the book is only five dollars.
So he has given five dollars. So what’s the problem? The thing is if you can get him to get
ten are you giving him another book? In other words, he has done service for that so give
him another book. So that way then technically it’s not, you tricked him to give more
money, but you didn’t actually cheat him. He gave you more money, but you gave him more
books. But you don’t give him because then you have to go back to your book bag and get
more or there is less books you can give it out to more people, more people get benefit.
Because then from there now that was based on books. But now you can have sankirtana
that there are no books, it’s just collecting money. So that focus may change. If we are strong
enough to do, ok, that’s one thing. But the point is is that a universal principle? Is that also a
long-term principle?
In other words, you have to see the motive. So if the motive is simply I can engage the
person more, he is reluctant, but this way, then that’s nice as long as that is the specific
mentality. But if there is any other aspect then that will tinge it. So it’s very, very subtle.
But then if he doesn’t in any way he was cheated or short changed then that may work
because then he’ll keep a nice attitude towards the devotees, at least neutral, and then any
friends he talks to it will also be either favorable or neutral. But if he feels in any way that
this didn’t go right then he is going to complain to his friends. So not only have you made
him not so favorable, though he has done pious activities, his friends are also not favorable
and they never got the benefit of actually having given money or taken a book. So that’s
very dangerous.
Now one could say, well, what’s the big deal or this or that, but that technically is the
naradhama. You want to be actually technical that’s what the naradhama is. We understand
mudha, mayayaprakrta-jnana, asura, very well. But devotees don’t understand what’s
naradhama. Mudha is not interested in God consciousness, he is just an animal. He just does
his work, and day to day just go through it. His ritual like an animal day and day out same
thing, eating, sleeping, mating, defending, making some money this that bla. That’s obvious.
Mayayapraktra-jnana that’s obvious, they have a brain, they are some kind of intellectual,
they misuse it in some way that doesn’t have anything to do with, any benefit of God
consciousness. They may be nice, they may be not nice, but it’s like that. And then asura we
see they are specifically motivated against Krsna conscious activities, against God
consciousness, against the process of upliftment and all that. So you have that. But the
naradhama is not really well understood.
Naradhama why is he the lowest? Because it seems obvious that the mudha is the lowest,
he is just an ordinary guy, just no interest in philosophy this that bla, just a real ordinary
just guy. So you would think that’s the lowest. But no, that guy is just an animal. But we see
human is the highest, then there is animal, then there is the two-legged animal. That’s the
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lowest. Two-legged animal is lower than a four-legged animal. Because a four-legged animal
is following God’s laws, while the two-legged animal is not. So therefore you have a principle
of being lower.
So naradhama means someone who has the pious credits that they can move forward in
Krsna consciousness but reject Krsna consciousness. So when you are standing there in your
sankirtana spot and you get out your book and you go up to somebody as they come off the
airplane and then they reach into their pocket pull out a little clicker and start clicking it as
they walk by, that’s a naradhama. And why are they are naradhama? Because the guy at the
last airport made him into one. That’s dangerous.
Devotee (2): What is he clicking?
Maharaja: The devotees’ dealings in the airport got to be such an annoyance to these
professionals that are constantly, they are flying every day, every couple of days back and
forth in America between all these airports, and so then somebody started something it’s
annoying that these devotees are coming up and bothering you with their stuff, that they
sold the thing I think it was like a frog. They had this little tin frog and underneath they
have this little like sheet and you can click it, it’s something that the kids play with that
clicks. So he made those available that when they come up to you just start clicking this.
And so like that devotees just ran into hundreds and hundreds of people with this. So the
guy who organized that that’s a naradhama. But he was created from the devotees. So that’s
the point.
So generally speaking the naradhama comes from that professional class. Because they
have piety, they are only in that position because of piety. Now it’s an opportunity to do
more and accumulate so they take up devotional service. So they are in a unique position.
But the devotees deal with them wrong and then they turn away from Krsna consciousness.
But now so one can say, yes, so this supports our philosophy devotees should be moral
and this and that. No, it doesn’t. What it supports is this verse from Isopanisad, it supports
Vedanta in that everybody is a devotee, so you deal with them according to etiquette that
God gave, not that you make up. Because here it is they will say, they must be moral, but
then they’ll enact their own morality, not God’s morality. So the vision is still wrong.
So you have gone from someone who, but of the two then you see the one who has
actually made the mistake is actually better situated because they are just trying to preach
and do everything for Prabhupada and this is what he wanted, they just didn’t necessarily
have a broad enough vision to be able to appreciate the fullness of it. So they make some
mistake. But the other person then is reacting to that and then giving up those kind of
dealings. So you don’t do sankirtana, you don’t do books, all these things people may feel bad
about, just that you breathe their air some people feel bad, you are just in their space, you
exist. So how far are we going to take it?
So in one sense the liberal is not as well situated in this way as the conservative, because
the conservative at least has faith in the authority, while the others they don’t, they think
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they are the authority. So it’s a difficult point. The point is it’s the middle, standards of
Krsna consciousness applied in a proper sensitive way, that’s what you are looking for. So
that’s why it’s not this or that and all this fighting and debating. No, it’s just God
consciousness.
The point is not that they are out doing sankirtana or using these different techniques,
it’s what’s the consciousness. The consciousnes is right, then it will be adjusted. In other
words, you see an opportunity, the guy hands you a hundred dollars, then you say, well, you
have a hundred, I haven’t got so much change, you want to give something more, I’ll give
you a few more books or this or that. And if he agrees to it, great, so you got something more
out of it. You would have just, if he had change he would have given you the ten and walked
off, but it didn’t, so he gave that. So there is some scope to talk and this and that. And if he
takes it, great, but he should feel comfortable about it.
Or if not, at least it was pleasant. But you can’t say anything bad. Like Prabhupada one
could say that Prabhupada, I think it was in London, was it in London, I am not sure where
it was, one Indian gentleman had some deities, that famous story, then Prabhupada, he
wanted to actually sell them to the devotees. He brought them I guess from India, but
decided not to use or this or that, or devotees heard, so he wanted to sell them to the
devotees. So then Prabhupada went with the devotees in a van over to his place, and
Prabhupada just started talking and this and that, and every time he tried to change the
subject into deities about money and this and that, then oh going very nice, and then like
this go off and this and that, and just keep the conversation going, told the devotees, yeah,
take them, put them in the van. And the man wants to bring up the price, no, but
Prabhupada keeps going. Once they are in the van and everything they finished all that and
Prabhupad nice nice this that and then goes. And then they just get in, and then as soon as
they get in the car Prabhupada says drive right now, don’t even stop, nothing. So they’d
drive for a few blocks so they know it’s completely away from that guy, then he says stop the
car, he stopped, then Prabhupada went offered obeisances to Krsna.
So you can say, well, he tricked him. But it was according to etiquette, he was dealing
very nicely, it was a donation, and he was Hindu, and you don’t make money off of deities. If
you are a silpi (?) you take a daksina for your service. But this guy was just doing business. So
there are considerations that are there.
So they are fine points, so it’s not, oh, therefore we can trick people. No, but there
Prabhupada did it in such a pleasant and nice way there was nothing broken. These others
sometimes people get very upset and feel very bad. So the guy will just feel Swamiji was more
clever. He didn’t feel, oh, the devotees cheated me out of my deities. No, he was just so
clever. So cleverness is appreciated.
Devotee (2): It seems like Vaisnava dasa he is the best person to talk to these Mayavadis he
is trained in their philosophy …the point of they have to worship the Saligram, they are
taking sanctified food… They didn’t want to look at their own…
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Maharaja: Yes, they can’t look at their, yes. So like that, so it’s just very clever like that.
Because you see here most of the time Cudamani is behaving and responding very nicely,
only occasionally then he gets a little bit out a hand there. Ah, so you think the material is
spiritual, like this and that.
Devotee (1): There is another pastime in Gurudasa Prabhu’s book. They are on the train
and the samosawalla is coming back with the basket on his head, and Prabhupada reaches
out the window and just grabs one. And so for our perspective it seems like it’s ok
Prabhupada is a sannyasi, connected to Krsna, but how do we understand that little…?
Maharaja: Because the guy gets benefit because otherwise it’s if he has reached out of the
window this probably wasn’t a chance, there may not have been a chance to buy or this or
that, so he is just benefitting. It’s like the Pandavas they go out and do their hunting, but
because they are liberated souls all the animals they kill get liberated. So there is a different
platform there. We also have to see adhikari. And Prabhupada mentioned there is, he says
there is nothing that a child can’t say or an old man can’t do.
Like Prabhupada would go into the airport bathrooms, because there is that sink area
and kind of it’s a bit of a big area, then you have to go to the toilets and that. So he’d just go
in there, put on his gamcha, take his little lota, go to the sink, fill it up and pour the water
over his head straight onto the floor. And then the tenant, oh, they have to put up signs,
wet this that. He just finished his bath and go and they don’t really say anything.
Or Prabhupada would be on the airplane and they are waiting for some time. Sometimes
before they take off it’s long time, it’s time for his lunch. So he just puts out the plate and
starts eating. And then the stewardess wants to say something but he is who he is and he…,
and even as the plane is taking off, everything is rattling, he is just eating as if everything is
perfectly normal. And so they just leave him alone.
Or in Vrndavana then Gurukrpa and company used to ride around in riksas and they’d
do the same thing. They ride by the stalls and snatch things, and Prabhupada would get very
upset, because it was creating a bad, there was no need. These are devotees. The guy on the
platform is not a devotee. So he has gotten benefit by giving something there. In this case it
would have been ajnata-sukrti, but that’s as good as it gets. So you have to see each
individual case. What’s the principle? Is Prabhupada teaching that you snatch things off of
the vendor’s thing as they go by, or is he teaching about how to find a way to engage
everybody in Krsna’s service? What’s the principle? That’s what one has to be able to see.
Devotee (1): I mean I am saying just because there was a temple in America they would
actually when people…
Maharaja: That’s so many places used to do that. Devotees would just go into the cemetery
and take the flowers. There was nothing and so they didn’t know and they don’t know the
standards, so it’s one thing. But as they know that, ok, one, cemetery flowers aren’t
considered so clean, other things like this, and standards we don’t do that, then they would
go to the flowerwallas and get flowers from them. Because generally if you go right to the
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flower market where they are wholeselling bulk flowers they would generally give you some.
There is always many of them and everyone will give you a little bit and go and you take
some prasada and you are nice and like that.
I remember in I think it was in Hong Kong, Trivikrama Maharaja was, where there is
these flowerwallas, all these Chinese guys, they are all Buddhists, but they would all give
flowers. So he didn’t have to buy any flowers. If he wanted some special flowers then he
bought them, but otherwise he’d just go. And they give whatever that day is they have more
of or what is cheaper, they’ll give you some. So like that it happens.
Devotee (3): Maharaja an other time devotees can be…behavior and really try to help
people. But people by nature some of them have an envious nature and then they don’t
really reciprocate or they don’t really, instead they try to harm the devotees or take…
Maharaja: So what’s the point?
Devotee (3): I am saying sometimes devotees may also try to extend their help…
Maharaja: No, that’s there, but that is the nature of devotees is that they extend their help
whether it will be responded nice or not. You take that risk. That’s why there is that story of
the sadhu and the scorpion. Everybody acts according to their nature. So the sadhu was
down bathing at the river and then he saw the scorpion in the water, and scorpions aren’t
known for their great swimming techniques. I mean swinging around the tails in sand dunes
or something they are known for that. At least that’s the way they are depicted, but
otherwise then they. So he picked up the scorpion because it was in the water. But because
the scorpion is scared like this then it would sting the sadhu. And so then the sadhu would
drop the scorpion back in the water, and then the scorpion would be floundering again in
the water. So the sadhu would pick it up again and the scorpion would sting him again. Like
this it was going on. So somebody who was on the bank of the river was looking at this, he
says why do you keep picking up the scorpion because he is going to sting you? He says,
everyone works according to their nature. So I am a sadhu, so you have compassion that
they are suffering, so I am picking him up. And he is a scorpion and he is envious, so
therefore he stings.
So it doesn’t mean devotees stop. But means they will be careful, if this person is a
problem then they’ll be more careful. But it’s not on their platform, it’s just a matter of you
distribute Krsna consciousness where it will be taken. They won’t take it so you don’t give it.
If there is an opportunity you do, but if not you don’t because they’ll not appreciate.
Devotee (4): It seems like not following moral principles which was less have created a lot of
repulsion…
Maharaja: You can say it’s by not following morality that people would feel bad towards the
movement, but the point is is it a lack of morality or is it a lack of God consciousness?
Devotee (4): …ultimately it’s…
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Maharaja: But that’s not the point of discussion. One will go morality and talk God
consciousness. Morality, ok, we are doing this for Krsna, and that’s created a problem, why?
Because the mechanics between what you are doing and Krsna is not understood well. Now
then another group will come along and say, this is wrong, see, by not following the moral
principles people don’t like us and everything like that, so we should be moral. And that’s
what we should do for Krsna. But it’s the same exact mistake. You are dealing with the
medium of morality and then you just say God consciousness. So the intent is correct but
mechanics is not understood. So they are making exactly the same mistake, just the other
side of the coin. Attachment, repulsion. So because of attachment, see, all this attachment
has created problem therefore we reject everything. But it’s the same problem. It’s not a
different problem. It’s not that they have solved the problem, all they have done is flipped
the coin over. And then everyone goes, oh yeah, it’s nice, nice head. And then after a while,
someone gets tired of that and they turn it over on the other side, well, ok, nice feathers.
And someone else comes and turns it back. That’s what’s going on. It’s just this side, that
side, this side, that side. Krsna consciousness is in the middle, it’s nothing to do with this
side or that side. So that’s the problem, the same mistake is being made, so they will get the
same problem, the same results of alienation. Just the form of alienation looks a little
different, that’s all. One side is a face, and one side is a bunch of feathers. So it looks
different but it’s still the same coin. Sorry to use an American quarter as the example but I
am not exactly sure what Euro change looks like.
Devotee (4): What is the middle?
Maharaja: What is the middle? The middle is you have to know the mechanics, God owns
everything, everything belongs to God, therefore you have your quota, you should stick
within your quota, don’t take someone else’s quota. So the problem here is that you are
stepping beyond your quota. Your Krsna conscious influence doesn’t actually extend that
far. So therefore it’s not within your quota. That’s the actual problem. So you have to
correct that. So it’s a matter of becoming more God conscious, not becoming more
moralistic. If you are more God conscious, moralism follows. But you can be moral and not
God conscious, in fact, that’s very common. Being moral and not God conscious or being
God conscious and being fanatic, these two are really common. But to be God conscious and
based on that therefore the etiquette comes that’s more rare, that’s what has to be trained.
So it’s a matter of training in philosophy. Means the form is not that of a resolution, the
form is that of education, if you want to correct it. Otherwise what’s that, because it says,
there is a sentence on a piece of paper, therefore you are going to change? You haven’t
changed your understanding, so you won’t change. (end of lecture) (end)
April 9, 2010
Maharaja:
Therefore Sri Isopanisad (Mantra 1) explains:
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“Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned
by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are
set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they
belong.”
In other words, it belongs to Krsna, He owns it, He controls it. So when we are dealing
with it that always has to be considered. So since it belongs to Him and is controlled by Him
that would mean that the method of dealing then has to be according to Krsna’s direction
because it belongs to Him and He controls it. So impiety means trying to own something
that’s not your quota, or to control it in a way that is not proper. That’s called impious. If
you deal what’s within your quota, if you deal with it according to how it’s supposed to be
dealt with, because Krsna is controlling it, therefore then that’s called pious. Now when you
do that to please Krsna, that’s called devotion.
So all these things of what’s pious, what’s traditional, people may say times have
changed this that. But what they are saying is, let us say someone says it’s 2010, it’s a modern
age, we have to move on, we can’t be so old-fashioned and all that, what is that meaning?
That means time is controlled by modern man, not time is controlled by God, because
according to time God He is eternal, so it’s always the same. Krsna looks 16 years old
eternally. His mother is still mother Yasoda, now it’s 2010, hey, why don’t we get a new
mum, she is a bit out-dated, something a little bit more upbeat, something maybe in a
miniskirt or something like that, let’s a little bit refresh this concept.
No, it’s eternally like that. So His laws are eternally like that. Everything works
eternally. So this idea that man thinks, no but it’s a different age and this and that, they are
making the mistake because they think they are creating time. But time is already there. In
fact, before they were actually conscious time was injected with them into the material
energy. So the glance of Mahavisnu is false ego, the jivas, and time. Because if time is not
there there can’t be movement. Time simply means movement. You moved your hand, that’s
time. So modern man didn’t create that. So he didn’t create time, time is already there, time
is Krsna.
So then it’s just a matter of how to deal with the particular circumstances there, because
God is controlling it. So through time various circumstances arise. So that is what you have
to deal with. Now you may have a desire therefore you work in such a way to create a
situation. Now if you work according to the laws of nature your situation will be created.
You don’t work according to the laws of nature it won’t be created. You want to create a
pleasant nice atmosphere then it has to be all considerations that make thing pleasant and
nice must be there. You can’t do something that doesn’t fit that.
In other words, it’s controlled by the Lord, so He defines what is nice, what’s not nice.
We follow that it works. So that’s the whole point, it belongs to Him, therefore one should
not accept things or activities that aren’s one’s own because they belong to Krsna, so He
gives you your quota.
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So in this way we are trying to establish how everything is connected to the Lord
because Cudamani’s point is there is material and then there is spiritual. Spiritual has no
variety and material has all this variety. So all this can’t be connected to that. But what he is
making the mistake is no, it’s not that this, and at the same time he thinks this generates
that. So that means the consciousness, the living entity, everything has come out of this
material endeavor, when actually it’s descending. That creates this. That’s the difference.
You understand this term? Means when we are saying this that, means, of course, in
English it works grammatically, but in the Upanisads this means the material world, that
means the spiritual world. So the Upanisads talk about this and that.
Whatever exists in the material universe has a relationship with the potency of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead.
With this potency, and He has a relationship with His potency, so in our dealings with
everything we are still working as the servant of the servant. His potency is His servant, and
so everything here has a relationship with that potency. So anything that we are doing
within this sphere it’s always in relationship to His potencies. So that puts us in the position
that we are always servant of the servant. We recognize that, that’s devotion. We don’t
recognize that, that’s illusion.
So there is nothing that is not connected to the Lord. Many times they moralists like to
do that. Like I remember hearing one devotee discussing that the kama-sastra cannot be
connected with the Lord. The kama-sastra that is something bogus made up by somebody.
How could that be a bona fide sastra? How could that, somehow or another billions of
householders consummate their marriage, have children. But somehow or another that
major aspect of life cannot be connected to Krsna according to this devotee. It’s just
nonsense, because they are a moralist in this capacity. But dharma, artha, kama, moksa, all
this has come, the sastras deal with this, but they are not accepting that. Because how could
something like this be connected? But they are making the same, it’s Krsna’s potency, and so
therefore you have to deal with Krsna’s potency according to Krsna’s direction. So that’s the
point like Cudamani then even though they are so intelligent they can’t understand how
the Lord and His potencies are connected.
A person who sees that everything has a relationship with the Lord’s potency will not
attempt to enjoy the things of this external material world. If a spiritually conscious soul
accepts only what he must to maintain his material body in this world, and if he understands
that everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead’s mercy, then he will not fall down.
That is the way a person eager to attain the spiritual world will act. Therefore the remnants
of food offered to Lord Krsna are called ‘maha-prasada’ (great mercy). Still, you are not
attracted to these spiritual things - that is your misfortune.
So Cudamani he is not attracted by these things. So he is very smart, very intelligent, he
is born in a brahmana family, they are from Santipura, so that’s very high-grade brahmanas
there. Their standards, their knowledge, their language, means up to recently more modern
times then Santipura Bengali was considered the standard of high-class Bengali, that was
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considered the best. Not it’s basically more Calcutta, just because of the comtemporariness
of it, so therefore your intellectuals and all that will use the Calcutta, but previously
Santipura. So a very good birth, very well educated, but no taste. Because he doesn’t see
things in relationship to Krsna. So here is you have these two aspects, you see it in
relationship to Krsna, therefore it’s His, therefore you won’t deal with anything improperly,
because it’s Krsna’s. Why would you try to enjoy it separately?
So that means then one would never fall down. Fall down means what? Not connecting
it to Krsna. That’s the real position, not falling down means whatever you are doing is
connected to Krsna. Then one is not in a fallen state. Even if one, someone like Cudamani,
even though technically he is doing everything proper according to Vedic standards, we use
the term fallen because he is nicely situated in the Vedic, so therefore you just say basically
it’s useless, or here he says he is unfortunate. So it’s not there.
But the real point is real properly situated is it’s connected to Krsna, not properly
situated means it’s not connected to Krsna. Then within not connected to Krsna or
connected to Krsna then you have various standards. But the problem comes because we mix
it, but it’s, yes, within the material you have impious that doesn’t have anything to do with
scripture and pious that has something to do with scripture, so that’s better. Because
generally pious people surrender, impious people have a tendency not to so much. Now
within devotional service then you have that which is properly in line, understanding
everything, and doing it nicely for Krsna’s satisfaction, so therefore no mixing of anything.
Then you have the devotional activities where you see things in relationship to Krsna, it’s
connected to Krsna, but at the same time you still have some material motive why you are
involved in it. So that won’t be as good. If you look at it like that it is very clear, simple.
Higher quality, lower quality material, but still material, basically useless, but you look at the
pious because they can more easily understand certain principles, it’s easier for them.
Though occasionally you do have very well understood or realized materialists.
That’s why Canakya will mention that you can even take, Canakya mentions that, even
Manu. Manu mentions that even from a sinful person you can get directions on morality.
Means the person that is committed to sinful activity and says it’s good, nothing to learn
from them. But there are persons who are sinful who they know it’s wrong but they are
attached. So they can tell you how it’s not good, how it shouldn’t be done. But they are so by
habit attached to it they know it’s not good, they can’t not do it, but they can tell you how
to avoid it, because you are just starting, you are not attached to it yet. So you can get.
So the idea is that if it’s separated this way it makes sense because this is the actual
reality. It touches Krsna it’s useful, it doesn’t touch Krsna it’s not useful. Of not useful there
is really useless and kind of useless. And then within devotional service there is high-quality
and needs a little work. But the problem comes we mix, but then you have a devotee, he is
performing activities that are not so good, his culture and all that, but he is a devotee. But
then someone else behaves very nicely but he is not a devotee. Who is better? That’s because
you are overlapping them. You are allowing them to overlap. So that’s not necessary. The
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point of because here we are making the point of communality is morality. No, but the point
of communality is devotional service or not.
It’s just like this rock and that pillar. What’s common? Hardness. Then it has a
matching. Ok, that’s hard, this is hard, this is not hard. But if we are trying to take, well,
that’s square and this is round we will not find any communality. Or that’s a regular shape
and this is irregular shape. Or that’s big, this is small. Then we won’t find.
So in other words, you have to find a right match. Intelligence means to be able to tell
what’s common, what’s the difference. So training is necessary to be trained how to see the
proper way of communality and difference. That’s the thing. So communality is is it
connected to Krsna? Not communality means it’s not connected to Krsna. That’s the basic
thing. If it’s connected, then you have something to work with. It’s not connected then not
so much.
So this is important otherwise in the modern concept they have their own perspectives
of how they differentiate and how they bring together. But because it’s not according to
God’s laws, at least obviously, means you can find the laws within it, but they are not seeing
these laws, they are in illusion about it.
The person at the University of New York is studying the Upanisads, but he is a
complete materialist and is studying Sankara’s commentary. So you can say, oh, it’s Sanskrit,
it’s Vedic philosophy, it’s Upanisads. So is it good? No, because it has nothing to do with
Godhead, it’s still being studied in total illusion. But it looks. But you could say, oh, but it’s
Indian, it’s this and that. No, it’s useless. The only useful thing may be the person has an
interest in Indian philosophy, so therefore in discussing with him Indian philosophy you
could convince him about Krsna consciousness, that’s the only useful part. So you have to
know where to make the, what is common and what’s not.
Otherwise so many things sound really good, but the point is what’s the perspective?
Whose perspective is it? Is it God’s perspective?
Devotee (1): So someone like volunteering at mother Theresa’s house will may have more in
common with the devotional process than that…
Maharaja: Yes, someone volunteering in Calcutta at mother Theresa’s may have more in
common than the NYU person with their philosophy. On one level yes, on another level no.
Generally it’s people who are more inclined towards karma then are more religious, so they
can see they take good and bad action and it’s easier for them to take up a process. While
someone who intellectualizes more, the jnani, sometimes it’s harder for them, because they
don’t see form. Form is not important to them. And so relationships, interactions sometimes
are harder. But sometimes it’s the other way around, they are so attached to the good work
and the sentimental interaction they can’t. While the person who is studying Upanisads
may be more detached and may be able to take it up. So it just depends upon what’s the
point.
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If it’s that they are attached to the sentimental interaction and helping the people will
be harder to them because of the material attachment. If it’s more that the selflessness of
working, doing good work, and sacrifice, probably for them it will be more easy to take up
Krsna consciousness. The person who is attached to the intellectualizing and not coming to
conclusions it will be harder. For the person looking for truth and is more detached from the
material, in other words, to that degree of selflessness to that degree they will be able to take
it up. And to that degree of selfishness whether it’s in the physical, emotional, or the
intellectual, then it will be harder. So that’s why you just try.
You find their common ground, what is the principle why they are working in that area,
and then start from there. In other words, you discuss with them about them until you find
what are their values. And then you discuss with them those values in connection to higher
principles. Because right now they are applying it on lower principles.
Like we were discussing it with the kids this morning, it’s like the kids that play all the
time, now by the standard of education you’ll say that that’s not good. But it’s not that their
playing doesn’t have some useful qualities. To play means they have to be focused, because
you can’t play a game if you are not focused. You have to be focused, you have to be goal-
oriented, you have to be energetic, you have to be willing to get involved and put in some
hard work, you are having to see the time, place, and circumstance exactly what did the
other boy so that you know what you can do to win the game. So all important qualities for
being successful in the world is there in their game. But the problem is it’s misapplied.
Because it’s class time. So if they applied all those same qualities to their education, they
would be a top academic student. And then when class is over and it’s time for recreation
then they’d be top in that.
Just like you have your, I forget what they used to call it, means you have those students
that are top in everything, they are top in academics, top in sports, top in like that. I forget
what they call them?
Devotee (2): …
Maharaja: No, there is a thing it had a terminology for it, it’s a collegic kind of thing.
Devotee (3): Kapavira (?)?
Maharaja: Kapavira? I am not sure. Whatever it is, you understand the point, there is their
top, because they figured out how to apply their intelligence and energy into anything of
their interest. But I guess it’s the same thing. The Kids that play all the time that’s their only
interest. So you have to expand their interest. In other words, until they understand the
field and that Pradyumna aspect there is not an interest, so they won’t indeavor.
Still, you are not attracted to these spiritual things - that is your misfortune.
Cudamani: Let’s change the subject.
So in other words, he has been defeated again.
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Let’s consider ordinary material things: How should one behave with Yavanas?
Because he is trying, ok, that didn’t work on that way, let’s try another way, because he
is clever, he is a nyayist, we have to remember he teaches nyaya, so that means he is good, he
is in Santipura, that means he is good, he is not like in some little village out in the middle
of nowhere, he is where top scholars are. So now he is trying to find another way, ok, now
let’s go in like this, well, how will you deal on the material platform and then make the
difference there, then try to take those and then prove his point.
Vaisnava dasa: As long as a person is a Yavana, we should ignore him.
Our point is very blunt. They are like this it’s like this. But if there is any devotional
that’s what we are working with. So he can’t make the distinction between, his point, ok,
here is a yavana, here is a great devotee. Ok, he is a great devotee, is dressed like one, acts
like one, does everything like this. The yavana acts like that, very easy. But the problem is
where the two overlap, that is always the problem. What is it? It’s like at twilight. Do you
turn on the lights in your car? Do you leave them off? Which is it? People get confused.
However, if by performing eternal pious deeds, the Yavana becomes a Vaisnava, then I
will not use the word “Yavana” to refer to him.
Because yavana means, technically yavana means one who is against the Vedic
principles. So one should always be very careful about ignoring the Vedic principles or
talking against the Vedic literatures or Vedic tradition or anything like that, because that is
the talk and language of a yavana. So here you won’t use that, you wouldn’t call a devotee
with that mentality a yavana. Because he is not, he is a devotee, he has done eternal pious
deeds. But the point is it’s still that’s the tinge, that’s their leftover. Because Prabhupada
would say mlecchas and yavanas. But here we see the yavanas are all basically from the
Islamic stock, because they oppose the Vedic version. But Prabhupada is calling the
Westerners many of them before joining Krsna consciousness never even heard of Islam
yavanas also. Why? Because they are against. See, mleccha means they are fallen, they are
addicted to sinful activities, but they are not against the Vedic principles, that’s a mleccha, a
meat-eater, but they are not against the Vedic principles. They probably haven’t thought of
it, but they are not against it. But if they think of it and are against it, that’s a yavana. So a
yavana could be a pure vegetarian following all the regulative principles but they are against
the Vedic version, that makes them a yavana. You don’t have to be a cow…, well, they are
there is because they are killing cows which is against the Vedic principles. So that’s the
problem. The problem is not that the yavanas are eating meat, that’s not why they are called
yavanas. Because they are against the Vedic principles, they are killing cows. So someone
who doesn’t accept the Vedic version that’s a yavana. And someone who is a meat-eater
that’s a mleccha. So one is dealing with their sinful activities, one is dealing with their sinful
mentality though naturally sinful activities. So mleccha can be a very pious person just they
are addicated to sinful activities, specifically meat-eating. While a yavana can be very pious,
but mentalitywise they are sinful because they oppose the Vedic version. So naturally their
activities generally will always be sinful, but they might not be.
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So that always has to be remembered. Always remember when these overlappings work,
these overlappings work in all directions. Oh, but what about if the devotee is this and that
wouldn’t that be bad? It’s like, well, if we use these, ok, you can use everything in Krsna’s
service, like you were saying yesterday, so then that means that if he is doing all these
socially unacceptable things for Krsna is that right because then the people in general will
think badly about us? Ok, so that’s a consideration, but what about wouldn’t that be then
the same light is then what about that the devotee is speaking against the Vedic principles
and doubting Prabhupada and doubting the Vedic literatures and the contemporariness of
the application of Vedic culture, wouldn’t that be also bad? Because you are saying here, one
is, oh, in modern society this won’t be accepted. But in spiritual society people that really
matter like the spiritual master, the parampara, Lord Caitanya, Krsna, all of Their eternal
associates, there is a lot more of them than there are people around here, and so then they
won’t like this mentality. So who you are going to choose? You can’t please everybody, that’s
the problem, people try it, I have seen people work really hard. But actually ultimately the
people who are trying to please everybody are only trying to please themselves.
Devotee (4): To be yavana and against Vedic culture one should know what is Vedic.
Maharaja: Yes, one knows.
Devotee (4): Without knowing, if one doesn’t know and acts against he is not yavana.
Maharaja: What is your purpose of the question? You want to feel a little better or
something or?
Devotee (4): No, I just make a point…
Maharaja: Yes, that’s the main thing, because the Moslems are called yavanas in this case
because in India they are working directly against the Vedic principles. They are killing the
cows, they are breaking the deities, they are killing brahmanas. So these kind of things
would be against the Veda, they are knowingly going against.
Devotee (4): And those ones in the West who kills cows but don’t know…
Maharaja: That they don’t know, they are mlecchas there. But at the same time they are
following principles that are against. Because it’s like this in the sastra there are methods
that certain animals can be eaten according to sacrifice. But unfortunately they are none of
the animals that anybody eats. Cows aren’t allowed, pigs aren’t allowed, chickens aren’t
allowed. Wild boars, yes, but I don’t think that’s what most people are eating. Bacon in the
morning is not a wild boar. So it’s like basically anything that they eat is not allowed.
It’s a fine thing. The thing is not so much the detail here. I am trying to bring out the
element of its mentality that’s making the difference. Otherwise the activities of the
mleccha, the activities of the yavana are the same. But what’s the difference? The difference
is the yavana is opposed to Vedic principles, while the mleccha is just he doesn’t know about
them.
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That old grandma living nextdoor, she is a meat-eater, she is just a regular person, she is
a mleccha. She is a nice lady, you come over and talk to her and this and that. She is nice.
But the yavanas, means when they come in contact with the Vedic culture they are against
it. So you go over there, you are a Hare Krsna. Oh, who are you? Oh, we are Hare Krsna’s,
we are from India. Ok, nice, come in, you want a cup of coffee. No, no, we don’t drink
coffee. Tea? No, we don’t drink tea. So like that, they are just mlecchas. Means they are
sinful and they have their culture and that’s what they do. Oh, you don’t do that. Ok, it’s
not a problem for them. So that aspect is mleccha. But where having come in contact with
the Vedas they oppose it, that’s yavana.
Devotee (4): Does it already mean demoniac mood?
Maharaja: Being in the material world means demoniac mood. So you want to be very
careful in these. See, you are trying to understand the principle here, if you get too involved
in the detail you’ll drive yourself and everybody else nuts. Because then you start, oh, this
devotee is demoniac or he is, no, that’s not point. Because here Vaisnava dasa is meaning
that However, if by performing eternal pious deeds, the Yavana becomes a Vaisnava, then I will
not use the word “Yavana” to refer to him. That’s all. So it’s just a devotee with mixed
devotional service. So he has a problem with karma or jnana. So there will be some karma-
misra or jnana-misra. And then what kind of karma, it may be pious karma-misra, or it may
be impious karma-misra, or pious jnana-misra, or impious jnana-misra.
The person you can say it’s pious jnana-misra that they just like studying and don’t like
doing any other services, it’s too much trouble. Doing other services means you have to
interact with people, it’s an anxiety. So that’s a jnana-misra. But that’s more of a high level.
Or their problem in philosophy they are quoting from Vedic sources, that would be better
than someone who is quoting from Western sources. But the principle is that of karma and
jnana what’s the mix. So if they are not devotees then they have basically labels. But once
they are devotees then it’s just devotees and there will be labels for their conditioning, but
not for them.
Devotee (1): I think in that verse in the Second Canto about the hunas, the andhras, the
yavanas, I think Prabhupada is referring to yavana as Greek in there, isn’t he?
Maharaja: Yavanas is Greeks, they are also the pulindas, the Greeks are specificially the
pulindas, but they are also that’s the yavana stock. But that goes back to Turkey. So
generally the Turks are more considered the yavanas than the, they both are, they are the
same people. It was up in Turkey and then they came down. So all they know is that these
people came into the region from somewhere else. That’s as far as historians kind of know.
So they don’t really know back, but everybody came from somewhere else when it comes to
Europe.
Devotee (1): It’s also interesting that because in the Western academia philosophy began in
that region Turkey, Greece.
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Maharaja: Yes, because that’s where they first noticed, the philosophy is beginning there,
because that’s where they first noticed. That would be in the age where they would be,
means your Greek civilization between 2000-3000 years BC is when they say it starts, so
that’s Kali-yuga. So in Kali-yuga then they start writing things down, because nobody has
the memory any more. So that’s when modern man notices it. But Vedic man knows it was
going on before that. So it’s just that’s when they came down.
So it’s Kali-yuga so it’s Kali to act needs mlecchas. Pious brahmanas don’t make a great
mleccha culture. You need mleccha for the mleccha culture. So then he will then start to
influence and bring them to the forefront. Otherwise we have to remember before that one
king did a mleccha yajna and killed all the mlecchas, so there weren’t any any more. So he
had to create them.
The scriptures declare (Padma Purana and Itihasa-samuccaya):
“He goes to hell who thinks in terms of his birth and caste, and who thus sees a Vaisnava
as a sudra, a barbarian, or an outcaste.”
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: A scholar learned in the four Vedas is not
truly dear to Me. An outcaste who has become My devotee is truly dear to Me. To him gifts
should be given. From him blessings should be accepted. He should be worshipped as much
as I.”
So the person who has become a devotee and is situated in devotional service then they
can accept gifts and give blessings, because this is specifically just for brahmanas. Only
brahmanas accepts gifts and give blessings, others don’t do this. So this person then is
accepted on that platform.
Cudamani: I understand. If this is so, then why cannot a Vaisnava householder marry
his daughter to a Yavana Vaisnava, or why cannot he himself marry the daughter of a
Yavana Vaisnava?
So he is saying, ok, I understand this because you are making this distinction, but then
why socially is that the brahmana wouldn’t marry his son or daughter to mleccha or yavana,
a Vaisnava from that background?
Vaisnava dasa: In ordinary material understanding, when a person is born in a Yavana
family he remains a Yavana until his death. However, in the spiritual understanding, when
he engages in devotional service he is a Yavana no longer. Ten kinds of ordinary social rites
are described in the Smrti-sastra.
So that’s the samskaras.
Marriage is one of them. If a householder Vaisnava is a Hindu, then he has a status
within the four castes and it is proper that he should marry within his own caste, for in
ordinary material dealings it is best to accept the temporary duties assigned to the four
castes. One does not become a Vaisnava merely by rejecting the duties of the four castes. A
true Vaisnava is one who does whatever is favorable for devotional service. If a person
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becomes spiritually advanced, and thus qualified to ignore or renounce the duties of the four
castes, then he may do so. Then he may renounce all duties of the four castes.
That includes being a grhastha. So when we are talking about one goes beyond all these
things and one doesn’t consider it all, we are talking about one who doesn’t accept, if we are
saying, oh, we are beyond varnasrama, fine, but one of the aspects of varnasrama is marriage.
So if we are beyond varnasrama that means we are beyond marriage, that doesn’t mean,
yeah, now de facto, it means no interaction. So someone can’t say, oh, we are devotees we
don’t care for the rules of varnasrama, we are beyond that. That’s ok if you are talking to a
room full of people who are celibate, not planning to get married, no need to get married.
Then they can talk like that. Otherwise everybody else has to talk that we follow within
this. So one always has to be careful.
Means in other words, these discussions are to create, not to establish very strongly
various rules and things like that, but to make us think and discriminate about the
situations. These examples are given, these strong examples are given, so that we will be
conscious and think. Because these are very clear, examples are always something that’s
clear, something obvious, something non-contradictory. But the problem is in the material
world you always end up with something contradictory, that’s the way energy works. So that
means you are going to have to use your brains and figure out what’s there, what is the
common element.
If the duties of the four castes are not favorable for one’s devotional service, then they
may be easily rejected. If association with the Yavanas is not favorable for devotional
service, then a faithful Yavana Vaisnava should reject their association. What is the
difference between a Hindu Vaisnava who properly rejects the duties of the four castes and
a Yavana Vaisnava who rejects association with Yavanas?
In other words, the person is a yavana it’s not against his devotional service to be in that
community then it’s not a problem if he remains in that. If it’s not favorable he’ll change.
Like Prahlada Maharaja he didn’t change out of the demon caste. He is in the demon
dynasty, he didn’t leave that, because it wasn’t unfavorable. He could perform all his
devotional activities even in that situation. If you can’t then you discuss not being involved.
Both have rejected what is material and inferior. Spiritually they are brothers. However,
this may not be true for a householder Vaisnava. Even though his associates and duties may
not always be favorable for his advancement in devotional service, he should not renounce
them prematurely. He may renounce them only when he is properly qualified. However,
when his attachment to devotional service becomes very strong, he will naturally renounce
unfavorable association and duties.
So in other words, here is that he is renouncing that situation that may be unfavorable
there, but only that much. He is not renouncing more. In other words, unless one is mature
if you renounce beyond what is necessary to renounce then there will be a problem, because
that’s required. So the mentality will remain, it’s not a favorable situation. So you make the
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adjustments how much is necessary. So one has to be very, very careful of that. So this is it
will come up in that.
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.11.32) the Supreme Personality of Godhead explains:
“Understanding these virtues and faults I have described, a sincere devotee renounces
all ordinary material duties and worships Me alone. Such a devotee is the best of all.”
In the concluding statements of Bhagavad-gita (18.66) the Supreme Personality of
Godhead declares:
“Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all
sinful reactions. Do not fear.”
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.29.54) it is said:
“When a person is fully engaged in devotional service, he is favored by the Lord, who
bestows His causeless mercy. At such a time, the awakened devotee gives up all material
activities and ritualistic performances mentioned in the Vedas.”
Fully engaged, so if one is fully engaged then one doesn’t need these other things,
because all the other things are to keep one engaged. In other words, the brahmacari is
performing his duties and thinking of householder life, so that means his mind is not
engaged. His body is engaged, he is doing what he is supposed to be doing. Part of his
intelligence is engaged, but part is not. So therefore by becoming a householder then now he
has the opportunity to engage all that, so that’s there. Now if you can be fully engaged in
just hearing and chanting, preaching like this, then what is the need for these other things,
they are there to engage you.
Just like medicine, if you are sick you take medicine. If you are not sick you don’t take
the medicine. To say, oh, we are devotees we don’t care for all this medicine, all the rules
and regulations of taking medicine. No, if you are sick you take it. You are not sick you don’t
take it. You are very sick you take a lot of medicine. You are not so sick you take a small
amount.
So that’s the whole point in that transferring from one to the other that’s where all
these considerations are. One side is very clear, the other side is very clear. But it’s in the
middle where things are actually going on that people are afraid to look or discuss, because
it’s not so clear, it takes intelligence, it takes thoughtfulness. So he is pointing out these
things, these are subtle points because that middle stage has so much variety to it. So the
point is we are trying to go beyond that, yes, but it’s not that we are beyond it now, that’s
our goal.
Our goal is, ok, let’s say, we want to collect 100.000 dollars to do something for the
temple. But we can’t say, well, don’t care for all these fund raising processes they are
mundane. We only care about spending the money for Krsna. So does that now mean you
have the money? Just because I said, oh, we are devotees we don’t care for all this, does that
mean now I have 100.000 dollars sitting on my table? No. So how is it by saying, oh, we are
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devotees, we are beyond the rules, we don’t care for varnasrama, how does that actually put
you on the paramahamsa platform? Just by saying it it did that? So powerful? That’s the
point.
So you have to be very, very careful, still one has to work. The processes of going and
explaining to people and inspiring them either intellectually or emotionally or socially or
whatever it takes. Then they are willing to then give you some things towards this project.
So the systems are still used.
So the same people will say, oh, we are beyond all these things, we’ll say yukta-vairagya,
that’s why we have to do all these modern mundane things. So technically their principle we
are beyond the rules and regulations simply means anything that is Vedic or traditional,
that’s all. It doesn’t mean modern. That they’ll say, oh, we are firmly rooted in that.
So the point is they see if you can give this up, which is good, if they can give up the
Vedic culture and rules and regulations then that means they have that sense or concept of
renunciation, so they could take that and apply that on the modern. So it’s not that it’s a
loss. It’s not that it’s not being completely applied. It’s being very selectively applied. So if
they would broaden their understanding then they would either engage the Vedic like they
are engaging the modern, or they would renounce the modern like they are renouncing the
Vedic. So either they work as a paramahamsa and go beyond everything, or if they are going
to work with it they can work with anything. But this thing you are a paramahamsa when it
comes to Vedic stuff but you are completely right, here, and now on the modern that’s not
exactly balanced.
Cudamani: If a Yavana becomes a sincere Vaisnava, can you take food, drink and other
things with him?
So he is trying to get, ok, at the marriage thing and so he kind of got out of that. So, ok,
what about the food and drink? He keeps trying to catch him somewhere.
Vaisnava dasa: Sannyasi Vaisnavas may take maha-prasada with them. Householder
Vaisnavas who are materialistic may not be so inclined. However, there is no rule forbidding
one from even taking the remnants of food left by any other Vaisnavas. Indeed, one should
take their remnants.
So he is saying that the sannyasi won’t have any problem taking prasada with them. The
householder may be more careful because he is involved in the social environment, so he has
to work within it that will be favorable for his service. So if it becomes a problem then he is
careful about it. But ultimately then there is actually no problem.
Cudamani: Why is it, then, that in Vaisnava temples Yavana Vaisnavas are not allowed
to touch the Deities?
So now he is trying to find some other. But these are things that he would do, they
wouldn’t allow, but you also.
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Vaisnava dasa: It is an offense to call a Vaisnava born in a Yavana family a “Yavana
Vaisnava”. Simply by being a Vaisnava, he is qualified to serve Lord Krsna. If a householder
Vaisnava engaged in serving the Deity of the Lord is, in the opinion of materialistic person,
outside the caste-rules of varnasrama dharma, the Vaisnava is at fault only from the point of
view of persons eager to follow material customs. Still, a sannyasi Vaisnava should not
worship the Deity, for if he worships the Deity then his status as a person beyond the caste-
system becomes ruined. Instead, in his heart he should worship Lord Krsna, the beloved of
Sri Radha.
So he is saying that the devotee, he is beyond all these things, so he doesn’t have a
problem, it’s those who are absorbed in these material things they will see in these
differentiations. So someone who is properly situated as a devotee, in other words, the
consideration of someone is qualified to worship the deity or not is not what their birth is,
it’s a matter of whether they are clean enough, they are responsible enough, they are mature
enough, they are Krsna conscious, that’s the consideration. So that’s where you are looking
at. Are they qualified to be initiated? Do they have second initiation and this and that?
That’s the consideration, not other things. So it’s only those who are more materially
absorbed outside of.
Cudamani: I understand. Now please tell what you think about the brahmanas.
Devotee (1): Did he just say that sannyasis don’t worship the deity?
Maharaja: Generally, they wouldn’t be like the temple pujari. Because then they are
becoming part of. Because the grhasthas would generally sit and they would be the ones
worshiping the deity. But it doesn’t mean that they don’t worship deities. Like the Goswamis
they worship their deities, but then when it became a very formal situation then others
worship the deities. It’s like the Govindaji temple there were brahmanas, or Radha-Ramana
there were brahmanas who are worshiping, householders, because now it’s a temple. There
it’s their private deity they are worshiping, hang them in a tree. So they are not working
within that system. But when they work within that generally it’s grhasthas who would be
worshiping. So that’s how you have the caste Goswamis in Vrndavana, the Gaudiya caste
Goswamis, they are not coming from the Goswamis, they are the pujaris of the Goswamis.
So they get worried about all these things and the caste. Otherwise the sannyasis don’t care.
Devotee (1): So the brahmacaris and grhasthas who worship the deity.
Maharaja: Brahmacaris are worshiping because it’s part of the sadhana in their training. So
generally they do. But you have to remember devotees would generally be beyond, we have
to remember he is talking with a smarta who would see that the grhasthas are the ones that
do the temple worship. You have a big temple and they have positions for pujaris that would
be filled by grhasthas. The brahmacaris would be living in an asrama doing whatever they
do. The sannyasis would be traveling. Vanaprasthas would be in the forest. So grhasthas
only would be worshiping. But the devotees then the system of worship is beyond that. So
you might find people who would be doing that.
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It’s like there is one brahmacari in Mamgachi, he has been there like 80 years or
something, but brahmacari. So it can be done, it’s not that sannyasis don’t, but they
wouldn’t be the full time New York pujari and that’s all they do, because otherwise why be a
sannyasi, sannyasi travels. They may come and while they are in New York they might dress
the deities or do an aratika and then after that they’ll leave. So it’s part of their sadhana, it’s
not part of their occupation. As an occupation they are a preacher. The grhastha his
occupation is pujari.
Devotee (1): Unless he is a ksetra-sannyasi.
Maharaja: Ksetra-sannyasa, yes, but then that would generally be in a ksetra. So he’d either
be in Vrndavana or in Mayapura. He wouldn’t be a ksetra-sannyasi in New York.
Devotee (1): Has it not to do with the fact that one aspect of deity worship is the reception
of guests and grhasthas are better.
Maharaja: Reception of guests, not necessarily, because the temple has plenty of facilities,
prasada and all this and that. I would say it’s harder to get received at a grhastha’s house
now than it would be, it’s easier to get, I found reception is much easier with brahmacaris
and sannyasis than it is with grhasthas nowadays. Because they don’t think food, guests,
social. Most grhasthas cook less than what is required rather than more. You run out of food.
So you just don’t want to ask for anything more. Oh, if you want you ask. They won’t serve.
But if you ask then they don’t have. So it’s very uncomfortable.
Devotee (2): One time…Australia, and Bhakti-Visvambhara-Madhava Maharaja he came in
and he started bathing Krsna and Balarama with his altar just like spontaneously, he just
came on the altar…plus he is really attached to Krsna and Balarama…he was so funny.
Maharaja: He is a bit of an avadhuta now and again.
On the Bhagavata consideration, because there it’s part of their sadhana, it’s not an
occupation. So here he is talking occupation.
Devotee (1): …it’s a livelihood.
Maharaja: It’s a livelihood worshiping the deities. But here is sannyasis are worshiping, it’s
part of their sadhana. So that means you may have a grhastha, he worships his deities as
sadhana, but his occupation is something else. So in here then he is meaning, he wouldn’t
take that as an occupation. His occupation is preaching, teaching.
Devotee (5): Is there any difference in mood when one does something as an occupation or
as sadhana?
Maharaja: Is there something difference if it’s done as an occupation or not? The principle
of it works in the same fashion, so that would still be applied. But it would just be how much,
what is its prominence, how does it fit in, how does it take things up, that would be. So you
would have to see.
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In other words, the principle of how you deal with something then it depends upon
what, if it’s a house deity you might deal in one way, but if it’s temple deity you’ll deal in
another way. So that will affect there. The underlying mood of devotion will remain the
same. But how that’s expressed that may change. Just like you are with your friends in
private you’ll deal with them differently than if you are with your friends in public. But still
that friendship remains, it doesn’t change. (end of lecture)
Devotee (1): That point about communalities and differences that’s the role of the
intelligence?
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (1): And you once gave the Sanskrit for it, it was like avyakti and samastra or
something?
Maharaja: I think vyasti and samasti something like that.
Devotee (1): Do you know the reference?
Maharaja: You just look it up in folio. I think they are standard terms. They are not like.
Because most of our terms are standard terms. Our terms will be within bhava and these
things like that. But even that it’s described by Bharata Muni. So we can even take our
descriptions of like what’s in the Nectar of Devotion to Bharata Muni’s nata-sastra, because
he’ll take all those things there. So we have sastric basis even for describing all that.
Devotee (1): Because in the Third Canto of…it is described I believe it is discriminating
between the sense objects…it is the same thing.
Maharaja: It’s the same thing, it’s just different aspects of the same thing.
Devotee (6): …in the lecture you say the mantra how proprietorship who loves Krsna. So
how do we when something gets stolen from you as devotees, between devotees let’s say, how
do you see it or…?
Maharaja: Whatever it is, it’s just if it’s yours you need it then you get it back.
Devotee (6): …
Maharaja: It’s just, it’s simple. It’s there for your quota, so it stays with you. They want one
they get one. If you don’t need it then you say, then they can have it. But you have to
correct them because then they might take something that you do need.
In other words, on the mundane platform it is very simple and straight-forward.
Sophistication is there on the spiritual platform. That same sophistication can be applied
into the material. But the sophistication is the spiritual. Not that, oh, the material generates
the spiritual. No, the spiritual is the origin of all this refinedness. But we may not be able to
appreciate it from the spiritual, so we develop in the spiritual, material connected to Krsna.
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So once it’s developed then we can start to connect that more detailed to Krsna until the
root is the spiritual not the material. (end)
April 12, 2010

Maharaja:
Cudamani: I understand. Now please tell what you think about the brahmanas.
Vaisnava dasa: Brahmanas are of two kinds: 1. brahmanas by nature and 2. brahmanas
only by birth. They who are brahmanas by nature are mostly Vaisnavas. Serious thinkers
from every philosophical camp will honor such a brahmana. Those who are brahmanas by
birth are honored because of ordinary social customs. That the Vaisnavas should be honored
as the genuine brahmanas is confirmed by the following words of scripture (Srimad-
Bhagavatam 7.9.10):
“If a brahmana has all twelve of the brahminical qualifications (as they are stated in the
book called Sanat-sujata) but is not a devotee and is averse to the lotus feet of the Lord, he
is certainly lower than a devotee who is a dog-eater but who has dedicated everything -
mind, words, activities, wealth, and life - to the Supreme Lord. Such a devotee is better than
such a brahmana because the devotee can purify his whole family, whereas the so-called
brahmana in a position of false prestige cannot purify even himself.
In other words, the point of brahmana is one who knows Brahman, in other words, so
that Supreme Brahman that’s the Supreme Lord. So someone should know, one who knows
therefore knows Krsna then he is actually the topmost brahmana. So this is the real
brahmana by nature. Other by birth only then that’s not even technically really brahminical
by karma, but social dealings then they do. But here it’s even mentioning someone who has
brahminical qualification according to sastra, but if they are not a devotee it’s not actually a
very elevated position. Means in the material sense it is very good. But the difference
between the material and the spiritual is very great. Just like between the real tree and the
tree in the water, the tree in the water doesn’t really have much qualities to it at all, it’s very
insignificant compared to the real tree. Because a real tree you can get so much from, while
the tree in the water you can’t get anything from.
Devotee (1): What are these 12 qualities?
Maharaja: The 12 qualities mentioned in the Sanat-sujata. I guess you would have to look in
Bhagavatam 7.9.10 and you see in the purport. It will be basically like the qualities given in
Gita, you just have to see what they bring out more and stuff like that.
Cudamani: The sudras are not allowed to study the Vedas. If a sudra becomes a Vaisnava
would he not then be allowed to study the Vedas?
Vaisnava dasa: Regardless of the caste in which he was born, a pure Vaisnava becomes a
brahmana according to spiritual calculations. The Vedas are divided into two parts: 1. the
Veda describing ordinary rituals and duties and 2. the Veda describing the spiritual truth.
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Those who are brahmanas because of social custom are allowed to study the Veda describing
ordinary rituals and duties, and those who are brahmanas according to spiritual calculations
are allowed to study the Veda that describes the spiritual truth. Regardless of the caste in
which he was born, a pure Vaisnava is perfectly qualified to study and teach the Veda that
describes the spiritual truth. This is described in the following words of Brhad-aranyaka
Upanisad (4.4.21):
“A wise brahmana should study the part of the Veda that describes the Supreme
Personality of Godhead.”
So wise means who has some realization, so that would be a devotee. Because a devotee
that’s what classifies him. Vaisnava means a brahmana who has realization. A brahmana just
has qualities that’s nice. A brahmana has qualities and knowledge that’s better because then
he can perform the duties. But if he has realization of the Supreme Lord that’s the best. So
here a wise brahmana means a brahmana who has realization of the Supreme Lord, then he
should study that part of the Veda that describes the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So
that specificially means the Upanisads, Vedanta.
It is also said (Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 3.8.10):
“He is a miserly man who does not solve the problems of life as a human and who thus
quits this world like the cats and dogs, without understanding the science of self-
realization.”
“He is a brahmana who does solve the problems of life as a human and who quits this
world knowing the truth of the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Those who are brahmanas because of social custom are described in these words of
Manu-samhita (2.168): “A brahmana who does not study the Vedic literatures, and who
instead laboriously studies many other books about material things becomes at once, in this
life, and along with his entire family, a sudra.”
So this is because of social custom. Means he is born in a brahmana family, but he
doesn’t actually have the brahminical qualification. So then naturally he will study
something other than the Vedic literatures. Because someone with brahminical qualification
will study the Vedic literature. Someone without it will study other branches of knowledge.
So because of that he’ll become a sudra. Because the brahmana must know the Veda. That’s
what sets him apart. The brahmana knows the Veda. Then if he has some areas that he
specifically wants to specialize in in the Vedic knowledge he can do that. So in other words,
he studied the Veda and he may know astrology or Ayurveda or the Puranas or Nyaya or
Sanskrit grammar or these things. Those are then on top of what he knows.
The devotee he chants 16 rounds, he goes to the temple, the mangala-aratika, this and
that, he may on top of that let’s say dress the deities or cook in the kitchen or. But if he
dresses the deities but doesn’t chant his rounds then what’s the meaning? So that specific
specialization that has meaning when it’s based on the foundation which is the study of the
Veda. So then the essence of the Veda that we understand here, because he is saying such
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devotees then they study the Upanisads. Because the Vedas you have four parts. The
Samhita itself, the verses that all the other three parts are based on. Then you have the
other three parts include then the Brahmanas, which are the explanation of the application
of the verse according to ritual. The second the Aranyakas are explaining the metaphysical
meanings of the verses. And the third the Upanisads explain the philosophical meaning and
application of the verses.
So you have the Samhita, which is the general platform that all brahmanas are studying.
Now if he is devotee he is going to look more at the philosophical application. He is a
karma-kandi he’ll look more at the ritualistic application, and then hopefully later as a
vanaprastha he’ll look at the metaphysical, and ideally then as a sannyasi then at least he’ll
move to the Upanisads, but if not then. The point is the devotees therefore emphasize this
last half, the spiritual, the metaphysical aspects of the Vedic literature. While the just your
just general brahmanas they will emphasize the Samhita and the rituals, not so much the
philosophy.
The qualification of a person entitled to study the Veda that describes the spiritual truth
is stated in these words (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23):“Only unto those great souls who have
implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic
knowledge automatically revealed.”
The word “para bhakti” here means “pure devotional service”. I cannot say more on this
subject. Please understand it as far as you are able. The summary conclusion of all this is: A
person who has faith in pure devotional service is qualified to study the part of the Veda
describing spiritual truth, and a person who has attained pure devotional service is qualified
to teach the part of the Veda describing spiritual truth.
So in other words, who has faith in the Supreme Lord or has faith in devotional service
he is qualified to study the spiritual aspects of the Vedas. And someone who has then come
to that platform of being fixed in devotional service, so that makes them a pure devotee,
then they are qualified to teach it.
So here he is establishing that it’s not a problem that the Kazi is studying the Vedas
because he’ll study the Upanisads, he’ll study the Bhagavatam, the Bhagavad-gita, Vedanta-
sutra, these aspects of the Veda. So it’s not a problem there. So here he is leaving it that for
those who social custom is important then, ok, then they don’t study the other parts of the
Veda. But that’s not such a problem, because that’s actually the lesser of the two. You know
the philosophy that’s the important thing. You know how to apply that in your life, you
know the devotional process, that’s what’s important. Now if you know the technical Vedic
skills, nice. If you don’t, it doesn’t really matter. If you know Krsna, then that’s what you are
looking for.
Cudamani: Is your conclusion, then, that the part of the Vedas describing spiritual truth
teaches only the Vaisnava religion and does not teach any other religion?
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So now he has caught, ok, if the Vaisnavas can study the last part of the Vedas, they are
only interested in Krsna, so does that mean that the Upanisads are only describing
Vaisnavism and not any other religion? So that’s his question, because he studies Upanisads
and comes to the impersonal conclusion. So now his question is does that mean then that
the Upanisads are only describing the Absolute Truth in terms of a personal form of
Godhead?
Vaisnava dasa: There is only one religion. There is no such thing as two religions. That
one religion is called “the eternal religion” or “the Vaisnava religion”. Other religions are
temporary. They serve as steps leading up to the Vaisnava religions.
So we don’t have any problem with other religions. Just that there are various stages of
getting to actual Vaisnavism. So they are bringing out aspects, trying to develop qualities
that you can look beyond yourself, right now if you are going to have devotion to Krsna how
is that going to be expressed? You just sit around and go, oh, I love Krsna so much.
Devotee (2): Through vaidhi, through regulation.
Maharaja: Through regulation, but now just because, but the smartas also follow regulation.
So regulation is important, so let’s take that, that’s one thing, regulation. So now let’s take
your general world religions. Is there are concept of regulation? Yes. Especially the more
older ones there is more regulation. The more orthodox the more regulation. While the
more they are so-called reforming the orthodox the less regulation. So that way you can see
they are moving away from the actual purpose. So regulation is one thing.
Devotee (3): What pleases Him. Pleasing Him.
Maharaja: Pleasing, ok. So that pleasing. So pleasing Him means not pleasing yourself.
Means you are pleased to please the other person, that’s sacrifice. So now how does that
manifest in your general religions? How do they implement this essential point?
Devotee (1): Through sentiment, I mean through philanthropic work.
Maharaja: Through philanthropic work, be nice, be good, consider the other person. You
want to do this and that, but that person did that, so consider how they are… And then
even in the politically correct, oh, see from their perspective. It’s the same principle. So one
will say, oh, but all these are all different religions. They are not, they are one religion. All it
is they are emphasizing different aspects for different people at different times in different
mentalities, that’s all.
So you have focus. The point is that should be steady. If it’s just sometimes it’s there,
sometimes it’s not. So it has to be focused. You have to be steady. So then how does that
manifest in some of the modern religions?
Devotee (1): Sunday mess.
Maharaja: Sunday mess, ok, they come to that, that’s a regular thing. But let’s say in the
element that you are focused on Krsna. Ok, so that will create focus, that there is a regular,
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that would go in the first thing he said regularity, that there is some regular worship or
something where there is hearing, there is chanting, there is remembering, these aspects are
there. But now let us, why one would stick to this process and be focused and not deviate to
something else? How do they express that?
Devotee (4): Through fear.
Maharaja: Through fear, yes, ok, fear, ok, that means there’ll be a bad reaction. So then they
are acknowledging God’s laws here.
Devotee (1): Material desire.
Maharaja: Material desire, ok, engaging that, giving… But it’s one thing that you would say
is very topical today, while some people are very absorbed in their religion, while others are
very. Let us say this, every time you go to the airport, you are very much afflicted by this
particular quality that modern religions have engendered in their followers.
Devotee (5): Fit in.
Maharaja: Fit in, means that you follow the religion you are good. Anyone who is not
following it is bad. Every religion has a terminology for someone who is not following it.
Devotee (1): Heathens.
Maharaja: Yes, whatever it is, heathens or goyim or whatever it is, infidels or, you had all
kind of things like this. So each religion thinks the other one is the nonsense. And generally
as these religions they have been around for thousands of years they have so many branches,
each one of them thinks that the other one is a nonsense. So that then keeps them focused.
So the principle is not bad, that you want to keep faith and people don’t this. Well, they do
this, don’t worry about that. You worry about this.
But the problem is seeing that they are not the final conclusion they are not able to
accommodate all the others because they are just a step. One step does not accommodate
another step. But stairs accommodates all the steps. When you say the stairs that means all
the steps. But if you only focus on one step or on one part of the step. Well, no, means our
approach to the step is the most important because it becomes a step because it is above the
other plane, so that front of the step is actually the most important because that defines its
stepness. And then the other religionist, no no no, but the point is that may be there, but
the actual point is that you are able to step on it and raise yourself above it, you can’t do
that on the front, you do that on the top. So the real religion is perceiving the top of the
step. While someone else will say, no no no, but the thing is but to be able to utilize the step
you need intelligence, so you have to be able to distinguish between the top and the front.
So therefore that edge, the corner, that’s the most important, because if you can’t
distinguish that you will not know how to, if it is a step by seeing the front, or where to step
on the top, and they will think we are taking the middle path.
But the point is they don’t really understand that it’s a series of steps that starts from
wherever you are and ends at the Supreme Lord. That’s Vaisnavism. It includes Krsna’s
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path. Krsna says there is one path. So he is saying here there is only one religion, that’s
surrender to the Lord. So now at what stage they understand who they are, who God is,
what the material world is, what is their relationship, what is your process, and what is the
ultimate goal, that will define where they are in that process. So when we say the yoga
ladder, the yoga ladder is actually way bigger than just your karma-, your jnana-, your
dhyana-yogas. It includes anything that is connected to the Supreme Lord.
So that even that includes the material, because karma includes the materialist, it
includes the person who does not accept the scriptures. Because still they are following
Krsna’s path. Why are they successful? You have the quantumist that’s down in the chair at
the university, but how is he in that chair at the university, how is he doing the things he
does, how is he studying and teaching and practicing quantum-physics? He is focused on it,
he doesn’t get distracted by other things. He is regulated, he comes to his class, he regularly
studies, he regularly gives a class, he is regularly practicing, he has a practice. He studies, he
contemplates, he applies it. He studies, he speaks it to others, he repeats it, he is chanting.
So he is following all the aspects of religion. But he is not understanding the actual purpose
of religion. So that’s why mayayapahrta-jnana, he is more foolish than the common person,
the guy in the street who knows ultimately that there is God and you are supposed to do
good work and connect yourself with God, even though he may not have great intelligence
and know much about it, and he may not be so expert at his process. While this academic is
much more expert, that’s why he is in the position he is in.
So that’s the thing there is only one religion. It’s just where you are applying it that
defines where it is on the path. You are applying it in pure unalloyed devotion that puts it at
the topmost end. Nothing to do with scripture, nothing to do with anything with
cooperating in any way really with others or anything like that, just whatever is your own
whims to benefit yourself, though you still have to follow God’s laws in doing that but you
don’t accept any of that, that’s the farthest on the other end. But you are still going to
follow the same process. You are going to engage the senses in the sense objects that’s
appropriate for the situation.
The thief is standing outside the store looking in the glass window and there is displayed
there a very expensive necklace. So he can’t reach his hand out and grab the necklace. So if
he reaches his hand out and grabs it, he sees himself, he sees the necklace, he sees the
relationship between him and the necklace, he sees the process, reach out and grab it and
put it in your pocket run off, but the situation is not correct because he is on the wrong side
of the glass or the necklace is on the wrong side of the glass. So either he has to wait for the
necklace to come out or he has to go in. So it’s still God’s process. But he is using it for his
own purpose, therefore it’s farther down on the scale, it’s down at the bottom, we’ll call that
criminal activity. But then if then he sees himself, he sees the necklace, he sees the glass in-
between, but then he walks into the store and then he buys it and then he gives it to his
mother or something like that, then that would be considered the same process, he got it
into his pocket, he made that difference between him and where the thing is. But that will
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be considered nice. Now he does the same process, buys that necklace, gives it to the deities,
then that will be the topmost.
The same process, so the religion is one, but the consciousness then defines how you will
perceive it. So the one is seeing it from the transcendental platform, one is seeing it from
the emotional platform, one is simply seeing it from a self-centered platform. So there is
only one religion, there is not many religions. So this idea, oh well, it’s this and that, we are
different or they are different. No, there is not, everybody is exactly the same. It’s just a
matter of how they manifest being part of a group. So is it God’s group or is it something
smaller?
Devotee (6): …the sambandha and prayojana are different, but the abhidheya is the
same…?
Maharaja: The sambandha and the prayojana are different, on one sense they are and on
one sense they are not. In mechanics they are the same, I mean your point of that the
abhidheya is going to be the same no matter what the consciousness is, yes. But the element
of understanding the field, becoming attracted and therefore having a need to obtain that
that’s also that mechanics is the same. So understanding of the field of activities means the
mechanical aspect, that’s the same, so that’s the mechanistic. That’s why in our approach to
the Vedic literatures though we achknowledge the mechanistic aspect that’s not what’s
important to us, that’s what we are not trying to establish, because then one has missed the
point.
Just like one devotee was telling me that another devotee reading through Prabhupada’s
books got this idea to, he saw Prabhupada so many quotes on grhastha life, so he thought,
well hey, let’s just collect all these quotes and put them all together so that devotees can
learn and be trained in the asrama. And he put it together, compliled it, hand it to
Prabhupada. Prabhupada looked through it and said this is useless. Because he was looking at
the mechanistic, you just have these things that say, oh, you do this, this one does that and
stuff like this, but it didn’t tell what was the mood of it, what was the actual application,
what would it look like, what’s the goal of it. That he missed.
Like if you look at Narada Muni’s explanation of varnasrama to Yudhisthira Maharaja
the emphasis is on the understanding of it. Basically in two chapters he has explained all of,
one chapter of varna, one chapter asrama, he’s explained of the mechanics. Then he spends
three chapters describing the paramahamsa, the overall social concept and how everything
fits together. So three chapters on these higher aspects, the Vaisnava aspect, and two on the
general mechanics. So that’s important to note. So we emphasize that, that’s what we are
trying to bring out. Because the other is just a matter of you study, you practice it, and you
have it. But the purpose is to become God conscious. So if you are expert at it and don’t
become God conscious what’s the use?
So we see many times devotees who get involved in some Vedic branch of knowledge but
they only catch the mechanical aspect of it. They don’t actually catch that it is an aspect of
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Vaisnavism that is how to express one’s affection for Krsna through that medium. So they
get distracted by Ayurveda or by music or by Sanskrit or some other branch. Astrology, a
very popular one to get distracted by. Vastu, they get completely distracted, they become
very expert, but they get lost. So you have the ability you can learn it, but the main thing is
what is the philosophy.
Devotee (1): Let’s say in one religious path the means to heavenly enjoyment is to become a
suicide bomber like that, so…
Maharaja: The path of coming to perfection is being a suicide bomber. The one thing is one
would actually have to look into the scriptures to see if that it’s actually what it says. I would
have the tendency to say that is popular interpretation. But I am sure if you ask those who
are more orthodox and knowledgeable in the field they may not consider that a prominent
element of the path.
See, it’s there is a different between sacrificing your life for others’ benefit meaning
that, ok, you are in a situation and therefore by you sacrificing your life you’ll save so many
others’ you’ll be able to accomplish something, that is one thing, that everybody will glorify.
But here it is some people’s idea of a political solution, it’s not actually religious. Because if
you are actually if you are thinking of God and it’s God’s creation then you would look at it
that way. God has given this body, God has created all these things. So it’s a matter of
understanding. Because if you look back there were a lot of people living in a lot of sand and
they worshiped a lot of gods, and then one person came along and told them, no, you
worship one Supreme God. So now all those persons technically by this modern
interpretation by a few individuals were fit to be killed. But did the acarya do that? No, he
trained them, he preached, he gave them knowledge. Then all those people who were
technically unqualified became qualified. So the method is you give knowledge. So one
doesn’t notice that these particular people are trying to train others in the importance of it,
what does it mean. Because technically anyone who accepts the Supreme Lord, this worship
of the Supreme Lord, that’s what you are looking for. I think that’s what even Islam means
or something.
So technically anybody who is worshiping, it doesn’t matter what religious
denomination, they are technically that. The ritual may be different, the language used is
different, but it’s the same thing. We are not meaning sentimentally, the process is the same.
You are supposed to respect God, so they do it five times a day, the others do it once a week
on Sunday, or they do it before they eat, at least the formal meal, or before they sleep,
whenever there is anything in their life that is important to them but they naturally don’t
feel the confidence to do it then they’ll turn to the Lord. So they have some way of
connecting. So some do it this way, some do it that way, but the point is to connect. So then
you look at what’s the most efficient way, what is going to generate the most God
consciousness in the shortest time, look at those aspects. Then you need a consistency that
one ritual shouldn’t get in the way of another ritual. So there should be consistency. So
that’s why Vaisnavism includes all of that, because it has that consistency. So all these
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things that anything else is offering it also offers but in a consistent package that’s based on
philosophy not just sentiment.
Devotee (7): Within Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s recent philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-
tattva …want to say because religion is, religion means connection…
Maharaja: There will be unlimited linking, yes, means that since everything is connected
with the Lord there will be unlimited ways to connect, so that’s correct. But then we have to
remember that there is also within that connection a hierarchy. In other words, there is a
hierarchy of Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. And so within that then you can see
when it comes to the personal relationship that’s better than something that’s purely just
knowledge-based. The knowledge is important otherwise they don’t know, means if one.
I can’t give detail, but throughout the last 2000 years then in Christianity they have had
many counsils in different places. They have all these ecumenical counsils and for basically
the first 1000 years they are just discussing the position of their acarya. Is he God? Is he not
God? Is he God and not God at the same time? What is his position? And then as they
discuss these things then different branches of Christianity accept or not. The Orthodox
then that basically is most of your early counsils. But let’s say your Oriental-Orthodox they
don’t accept. They only accept up to the Third Counsil, after that they split, because then it
goes back and forth. Is he divine? He is not divine. He is partly divine. Sometimes he is
divine. Maybe he is divine. Yeah, he is really divine. It’s like this, so they have just stepped
out at that point. So the whole Oriental-Orthodox, which we generally don’t hear of, the
Coptic, the Egyptian Chruch, the Armenian Church, the Syrian Church, we don’t hear of
those. But they are a very large branch, very ancient branch, that they just don’t accept,
because it keeps going back and forth too much.
Then it goes on for a while that your Orthodox stay together, but at one point it split
into the West-Orthodox and East-Orthodox, or your Roman and your Eastern. And so then
those have all their various groups in them. After that then you have the Reform
movements, your Protestant. And then some of those accept some of those older ecumenical
counsils and some don’t.
So it’s a bit of a mess. Because they don’t see what they are dealing with, the philosophy
is not strong. Even though knowledge is not ultimately the driving force, it’s the devotion,
but it has to be based on knowledge. Otherwise here it is they don’t even know if their
acarya is God or not, how he is God. We say the acarya is God, but we know how he is God.
He is non-different that he is representing God, he is giving the teachings of God. So he can
be spiritual, at the same time be in a material body. They can’t accommodate that. They
can’t accommodate how the acarya can have a material form made out of material elements
but at the same time represent Godhead and be as worshipable as God. They can’t put that
together. And they’ll spend sometimes, I think one of the counsils was 30 years they sit there
and argue over, I think the first one, the Nicean Counsil, how is 30 years they argued with
each other. And then at the next counsil then so many of those things they changed. And
then in the Fourth Counsil they changed it back.
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Devotee (7): So this is due to this relative and at the same time…
Maharaja: Yes, means you have to consider the mundane because that is the medium
through which it’s expressed. In the spiritual world the medium is spiritual energy and that
spiritual energy is applied with devotion. Meaning you have spiritual energy that is your
sandhini-potency, then with proper understanding and activity, samvit, you apply it in the
Lord’s service, hladini. So that combination of applying it to please the Lord with the proper
knowledge that becomes devotion, bhakti, that’s bhakti-devi. Samvit and hladini combined
becomes bhakti-devi. Now one would say, no no, but it has to include the sandhini.
Technically it doesn’t because then if it had to include sandhini that means you could only
perform devotional service in the spiritual world. But that sandhini’s reflection in this
material world as the material energy can also be the basis of with proper knowledge and
understanding, with devotion to the Lord you apply that use of the material energy, that’s
still devotion. So whether you are using in the mechanics the material energy or the
spiritual energy it doesn’t matter, as long as it is with proper understanding in devotion,
then that becomes the combination. Then the actual sandhini will give you realization, in
other words, yoga-maya will give you realization.
Devotee (7): This is the example of…
Maharaja: Yes, so it’s just a matter of the glass is there, so you have to bridge the gap. So how
to bridge the gap there is a process. Means you can’t walk through the glass, of course, you
can just pick up something and throw it through the glass and then that works. I think that
would traditionally be the Napoli solution. I think if you go to Rome then they walk in and
point a gun and say give the necklace. But it’s just a matter of facilities and how you identify
yourself. The Napoli guy why make the whole big scene, you just want the necklace, you
take the necklace, you go. The Romans why do they have to have the whole thing, the suit,
the hat, do the whole thing, hey, I think it’s good for your business if you give that to us. All
that kind of things, good for your health. It’s very good for your health. Why all that form?
So the Napolitans they are more on the spontaneous platform, while the Romans would be
more vaidhi and form and all that kind of thing like this. So like this you have seeming
different religious manifestations, but it’s actually only one religion.
Devotee (8): Is there a difference between transcendental and spiritual?
Maharaja: Between transcendental and spiritual, no. Transcendental and spiritual are the
same. But there can be a difference in spiritual, transcendental, and devotional. Devotional
includes spiritual, transcendental. So we can say spiritual, transcendental in the circle of
devotees and we know that means devotional. But we can also when we are speaking of the
impersonalists we can also say spiritual. Because they are spiritual. They are spiritualists,
they are transcendentalists, but they are not devotional. So spiritual means not material.
But devotional means there is spiritual relationship. Spiritual specifically means no material
relationship. Material means material relationship. Spiritual means no material relationship.
But devotional means spiritual relationship. So you can, though they mean the same thing
they can be.
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Like varnasrama, for us we talk about varnasrama it is devotional service, non-different.
And we say varnasrama is sanatana-dharma are non-different. But at the same time we can
say the followers of varnasrama have missed the point. So devotees get confused because of
this. Because there is always this overlap.
Devotee (7): There is also sometimes some people…disappointed with the materialistic
nature of the…of religion. They differentiate religion from the spiritual.
Maharaja: Yes, religion from spiritual. They try to get a more universal appeal. But then in
doing that it becomes impersonal. But the thing is you can still get that universal appeal by
going to the topmost manifestation. So we see Prabhupada wherever he is discussing he is
discussing pure Krsna consciousness. But depending on the situation he’ll lean more on
spiritual relationship or on spirituality, and even sometimes proper dealing with the material
energy, which is God’s laws. So in any case he’ll take any of these things. But you can see
through it he uses the technical what the verses of the Vedas are saying, the processes that
they are giving and sticks to that, and gives it in that way. So he doesn’t change anything,
and he doesn’t actually lighten it up, he just uses approachable language. But the
philosophical point he is making is pure Vedanta. That’s the amazing thing.
In the Eleventh Canto (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.14.3) the Supreme Personality of
Godhead explains:
“By the influence of time, the transcendental soul of Vedic knowledge was lost at the
time of annihilation. Therefore, when the subsequent creation took place, I spoke the Vedic
knowledge to Brahma because I Myself am the religions principles enunciated in the Vedas.”
The Katha Upanisad (1.2.15 and 1.3.9) explains:
“All the Vedas describe the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...Now I will
briefly describe that abode to you.”
“The realm of Lord Visnu is the supreme spiritual abode.”
Here Krsna is pointing out that at the dissolution then that soul of Vedic knowledge was
lost, because that soul is that devotion. And so then when it was manifest again he speaks it
to Brahma. So the point is He is religious principles. So you can see Him as ritual, just the
mechanics of the ritual, the Brahman level. What is supposed to be done, relationships with
others, what result it gets, Paramatma level. Or that this is pleasing to Krsna, Bhagavan. But
in any case it’s based around the ritual, because the ritual is Him but on the Brahman,
Paramatma, and Bhagavan level. So there is nothing that is not Him. Everything is Him.
Because everything has a field of activities, everything has potencies and relationships,
everything has application, interaction, and results. And everything has that concept of
emotions and feelings and needs and what that result is for. Everything has this. So now it’s
do you see that in connection with God or not. If you do then that’s the Brahman,
Paramatma, and Bhagavan levels. You don’t that’s called illusion. You are willing to sacrifice
your time and money and effort for other people, but the point is time, money, effort is God.
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That field of sacrifice is God. The people you are sacrificing it for is Krsna. So if you don’t
see Krsna in that process you have missed it, though in this particular realm this is in the
aspect of karma.
When you understand the potencies that are there, the giver, the givee, and the process
of giving, that that potencies, those qualities are God’s. Then you are seeing the Brahman
platform. If you are not you are seeing the ritual platform, or you may see just the emotions
of it. Or you may see the benefit you get because you have done this thing and you have
taken lots of pictures, then people are going to think you are a religious man and your
business is going to get better. But in some way they are not understanding that all this is
actually Krsna. And then I want to perform this by the Lord’s grace, Paramatma, He
arranges all these, the modes of nature and seeing all that kind of interaction, the actual
dynamics, that’s Paramatma. And then seeing that I am giving in charity because Krsna says
one should do that. So since I am going to give in charity then the best charity is either if
it’s material things give it to devotees, give it to the deities, give it for the sankirtana
mission. Or the highest would be to give Krsna consciousness. So that’s the thing Krsna is
the religious principles. They are non-different.
Devotee (1): I am trying to understand like this atheistic scientist or anybody who… It
seems that on one hand they are kind of jnanis, voidists. But at the same time they are living
for this life, so they are karmis at the same time. So is it fair to say that it’s just the same
religion but it’s being tainted by karma and jnana to different degrees?
Maharaja: Means religion is there, now tinted by karma and jnana is going to be the
perspective. Because Rupa Goswami is defining, be conscious, because without consciousness
nothing gets done. That conscious then should be of God. So now you can be conscious of
this or that, the parts, but if you are conscious of the whole you are automatically conscious
of the parts. Some people say, well, if I am conscious of God I won’t be conscious of the
parts. No, you are conscious of God you are automatically conscious of the parts. You are
conscious of the person, then you are conscious of their hand. And then the third thing is
that consciousness of God should be favorable to God. In other words, you are trying to do
for God. But now to bring it to the platform where it’s pure, then it shouldn’t have in that
consciousness when you are applying it, because that consciousness you are going to do
activity, you are going to have understandings and all that, then it shouldn’t be tinged by
karma or jnana. So karma and jnana become the smaller part of the bigger picture.
So the thing is they are following it, karma and jnana is, means you have to have form
and ritual, and at the same time you have to have knowledge. It’s which is your emphasis. It’s
not that the karma doesn’t have some knowledge. It’s not that the jnani doesn’t engage in
any activity. It’s just where is the emphasis. Is he a musician or is he expert at music? Like
Hanuman how would you define him?
Devotee (1): He is a devotee, servant of Lord Rama.
Maharaja: He is a devotee, servant of Lord Rama. Did you know that he is expert in music?
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Devotee (1): No.
Maharaja: How do you define Prabhupada?
Devotee (1): He is the founder-acarya of ISKCON.
Maharaja: Founder-acarya of ISKCON, ok. But now he was expert in music. He was expert
in cooking. He was expert in social interactions. But that’s not his identity. They are expert
in social interaction, the best one of those becomes the secretary of state. A cook becomes
the chef. Becomes the musician. But it’s not their identity. So they are a devotee and they
know these things. But let’s say you have a devotee, then you think of this one, oh, music.
Because that’s their identity, they are a musician. So it’s not that it’s not going on, so it’s
where the emphasis is, where the consciousness is they are named by that. So a scientist is
named that because that’s how he sees it, through science.
Devotee (1): But he is interested in the Absolute Truth.
Maharaja: That’s what they say. Ultimately that’s what they are interested in, but whether
they call it that or not it’s another thing. But all they are interested in is that, because
Krsna, smaller than the smallest, so they are into atoms and getting picking that apart, so
Krsna is. (end of lecture) (end)
April 13, 2010

Maharaja:
Cudamani: Is your conclusion, then, that the part of the Vedas describing spiritual truth
teaches only the Vaisnava religion and does not teach any other religion?
Vaisnava dasa: There is only one religion. There is no such thing as two religions. That
one religion is called “the eternal religion” or “the Vaisnava religion”. Other religions are
temporary. They serve as steps leading up to the Vaisnava religions.
In the Eleventh Canto (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.14.3) the Supreme Personality of
Godhead explains:
“By the influence of time, the transcendental soul of Vedic knowledge was lost at the
time of annihilation. Therefore, when the subsequent creation took place, I spoke the Vedic
knowledge to Brahma because I Myself am the religions principles enunciated in the Vedas.”
So that would mean when Krsna is speaking to Brahma this knowledge then it’s not that
He is just speaking to him the words of the Veda. That’s not the thing it’s, because that’s not
what that’s been lost, because the Veda is eternal, so apauruseya, so it’s not lost, it’s always
there. So it’s not that it’s being again manifest. No, it’s always manifest. It’s not like the
material world that manifests and unmanifests. It’s always manifest. What’s here it’s the soul
of Vedic knowledge is what He is explaining. So when He is speaking to him the Veda then
what He is speaking is He is trying to train Brahma in what is the essence, what does it
actually mean, what is its purpose, because that’s what gives it, soul means life. So what is
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the purpose of the Veda, that life that the Veda is giving that it is offering. So that is then
what’s being given by Krsna here.
So that’s very important to understand, the Veda is there that’s the form that we see.
But what does the Veda mean, what is its purpose? So here He is saying He Himself are the
religious principles. So that means what the Veda is describing is Krsna. So when he says
that the Vedas are only describing Vaisnavism. So Cudamani is mentioning, so he is saying,
oh, so only those parts that are spiritual are defining. But here Krsna says He is the religious
principles. So that means also the first two parts are explaining. So that means all four parts
of the Veda are explaining Krsna, there isn’t something else. So there is only Vaisnavism is
only being described. Everything else is a portion of that, but because it’s a portion.
You say your body, now is your hand part of your body? So then why just call it, why not
just call it, yeah my body hurts here, this body hurts also, part of the body, and then over
here there is little something. Because it’s a part of it it’s got a name.
The astanga-yoga system is one yoga system. There aren’t two yoga systems, there is one.
But someone who is only doing I mean supposedly the yama, niyama, asana, then that’s
called hatha-yoga. They only concentrate on that, maybe they’ll do a few mudras, maybe a
little pranayama, but it’s only in enhancement of the asanas. So that’s called hatha-yoga. So
now if they take pranayama very seriously and pratyahara, then it’s called raja-yoga. If they
focus just on meditating, it’s called dhyana-yoga.
So when you separate off something it has its name. But actually there is only one
system. So in the same way there is only one religion, there isn’t more than one. But when
you separate a portion of that off it gets a title. So like that then it becomes something. So
it’s just a matter of whether people can see the broader picture or only see part of it. God is
there, His servants are there, that’s an eternal fact, but if someone focuses just on one acarya
and doesn’t see the complete picture then it gets a name. And then as they adjust this and
that then they give it different names.
Devotee (1): Does in the principle of union and diversity Mahaprabhu started the
sankirtana movement with hari haraye namah krsna…could be… idealistic to think that if
people can… engage together to chant the respective names that they have more faith but
together breaking the sectarian spirit. It can be very constructive, or?
Maharaja: Of course, sankirtana always, because it’s the method in this age, so if people get
together. It’s not let’s say, I don’t know, in America it wasn’t as known, but like in Europe
even you go back like 50 years, 100 years, you would have Christian groups that would go out
with karatalas and do kirtana, they just sing God’s glories and then travel, walk, they do
padyatra from village to village. Like let’s say they are going to some place on pilgrimage,
they instead of taking the car, the train, they would walk and they would do kirtana and
stop in villages and whatever people would take care they would beg, so like that kind of a
thing, it wasn’t an uncommon concept.
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Devotee (1): Once I met in a train one person … was living in Lahore before the division,
they say that the Hindus constantly will go together…
Maharaja: Yes, there was that Prabhupada also mentioned India. He says if there hadn’t
been partition then the Indians Moslems would have gone on peacefully as they had for so
long. Because it was only some individuals made, you have to have somebody who is pushing
it, like Aranga Zeb, he pushed it, or Babar was a bit annoying. But otherwise then one does
one thing one does another, because they are just supposed to be God conscious. So they
would attend, then they would interact.
Like I remember in the gurukula whenever the kids would do jhulana, they do it at
night, then all the laborers that work in the night in the gurukula they’d come dressed up,
come with their families and come take part in the jhulana, because it was the school
jhulana, so they were school laborers, so they would come.
Devotee (1): So this in one sense is also the varnasrama in action.
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (2): You say that all thing is coming from…
Maharaja: I say or Vaisnava dasa is saying?
Devotee (2): About the Vedas coming it’s only one all coming from there. This about the
Christian religionists, the Christian religion …Jesus Christ many people say in some books
he has come to India…and some people teach…and go back and teach…also Jesus Christ is
coming from Vedic culture. But ultimately isn’t there for the Moslem country a Vedic
connection with the Vedic knowledge, how the Moslem connection with the Vedic also,
there is connection with the Vedic knowledge, Vedic culture, only how?
Maharaja: Through Lord Siva. Means the point is it’s all connected it’s just a matter of
speaking for the local populace what they can handle. It’s like the Ten Commandments, if
you talk to most Christians it’s something of a very idealic ideal that’s not something that
you can actually obtain, maybe some saints, someone who like that then they get canonized
as a saint or something like that. That’s if they are, of course, they are some variety of
Catholic-Orthodox, if you are Protestant they don’t bother with saints. But for us that’s a
normal lifestyle. Every devotee lives that. So depending upon your audience you can speak
accordingly. That’s all. But idea is progress, idea is being conscious of God. But the problem
is because of their particular habits or lifestyle, then so God consciousness is a universal
principle, anyone following anything living any lifestyle can be taught to be God conscious.
But you do have the disadvantage that their particular lifestyle may not be so favorable
towards consistent God consciousness which you are trying to establish. So therefore if you
can you do other things.
But even if you can’t change other things, what’s the most important thing? Is it more
important that they are God conscious or that they are vegetarian? God conscious. So now
if you can convince them to be vegetarian, nice. But if you can’t then you don’t bother with
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that one. Then at least you get them whatever you have you offer it to God, it’s by God’s
grace that you have it. So they become God conscious. But the problem is because of that
lifestyle and their meat-eating and their drinking and all these other things it will create
more the mode of passion and ignorance. So they will be overwhelmed by their natural
neophyte stage of God consciousness of their envy, their jealousy and all these things of
each other, and not seeing properly even from the mode of goodness that the nature of the
soul, but they’ll see the body and that the souls are based on the body or the religion or your
social status, and so that will have a weakness. But at least there is some God consciousness.
Because you find that those who are practicing these things or have an idea exposure of the
concept of being one God then when you bring him in contact with Vaisnavism that there
is one God there is not so much problem for them. So that means that one preacher will do
what he can, another preacher will take it further.
Devotee (3): Just elaborating a little bit how Siva is connected to…
Maharaja: How Siva is connected to, and what will you do with this knowledge once you
find out?
Devotee (3): …understanding of how it’s working.
Maharaja: How it’s working. The Visnu Purana mentions that Mohammed is one of Lord
Siva’s associates. (Noise) Confirmed. He is one of his associates. So that will be the
connection there. But see ganas are, Lord Siva is able to work with everybody. All those who
others aren’t working with so much he can work with. So therefore it’s natural one of his
associates would come to preach in that area, because they are very unregulated, they don’t
have a common kind of like, each little group family tribe there is all histories and nobody
works with each other. So you’d need somebody who can understand the principle of how to
pull together such a diversity of people. So naturally someone like him will come. Let’s say
someone like Jesus you are just talking to Jews, so you are going to have more ritualistic,
little less ritualistic, but that’s what he is talking to. So it’s one background, one thing.
But these others they are all varieties, I think at the time when they established the
monotheistic worship at Mecca I think there were 300 deities in the temple. All these local
families and tribes they all had their own deity and at least a regular way, I don’t know if it’s
once a year, they would all come together, all the families, bring all their deities, and have a
big festival. At the same time, of course, everyone would be making money also. And those
deities would be kept there. And so Mohammed when he got people convinced of the
position there is a Supreme Lord and everybody else is His servant then he came and kicked
everything out of the temple.
So you had a very big diversity. While amongst the Jews they were already monotheistic.
He is trying to bring about let’s say a new life or inspiration into it then bring out the
devotional side as opposed to simply ritualism. Because the form is there to express
something, so they have missed the point. So it’s just a matter of auspiciousness and good
and that, and so it becomes more mechanical and more of a economic kind of base system.
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So a different approach is there. Jesus could be more just intellectual and emotional. While
Mohammed had to be a bit strong, because it was a war to establish monotheism. Here
monotheism already established.
Devotee (3): You can see in modern society Moslem religion is spreading quickly…
Maharaja: Spreading quickly, because they make themselves known. Whoever makes
themselves known spreads. The Mormons are also spreading extremely quickly, because
they’ll go out on the street and talk to people. They just go right up to them and talk, they
are not afraid of who they are. We may spread or not spread depending upon how much we
are trying to fit in or how much we are trying to establish God consciousness.
Devotee (3): …people are from Moslem background then Lord Siva will eventually take care
of them…
Maharaja: Lord Siva will eventually take care of them.
Devotee (3): To bring them to Krsna…?
Maharaja: That is, the point is the Supreme Lord is arranging everything, so someone who
wants to know Him will actually learn. Someone who doesn’t will learn less. Because religion
isn’t a political statement. Politics is simply how do you manage those within the religion or
how to manage that others outside don’t bother you. But it doesn’t take precedent over the
religion. Politics are part of the religious process, not that the religious process is part of
politics. So that you have to see. So those who the political status is more important then
they are only going to understand that much of their religion, and those who then the
religious aspect is more important will understand more. And those who are interested in
the transcendental then will understand beyond both of these. They’ll understand how to
balance the two.
Otherwise because they are both on a lower level there will always be a conflict. That’s
been since probably 1100s there has been a conflict between Church and State. That’s just
been ongoing history. So what’s going on today, what people are speaking today they were
speaking 1000 years ago, no different. It’s not like there is different words in there. Ok,
maybe the slang is left out, but it was the same thought. And those unfortunately go back to
the Greeks, they already had that a few thousand years ago. So modern man somehow or
another is very proud that he is something unique. But all it is he is speaking stuff that was
spoken thousands of years ago, but he doesn’t even know the origin. At least 1100 years ago
they knew this is Aristotle, this is Plato, this is this one, this is that, they are making these
points. How does Christianity answer this? There is no answer. So therefore then Thomas
Aquinas then he came up with a thing of rationalism, which means that you are going by
reasoning rather than just empirical that by experience, to trying to bring some rational
logic into religion. And technically up to Hume in the 1700s or something that rationalism
was identified with theology. But somehow or another Hume it was separated, so it became a
completely separate thing, so religion is one thing and then all philosophy was something
else. But they are speaking the same thing, it’s just whether they are religious or not, God
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conscious or not, it’s not that it is something new. That’s the meaning. It’s not new. The
illusion is each individual has to be unique.
You have a pair of jeans and so you want to be unique so it looks, they look too new, so
you tie a rope on them and tie them on the back of motorcycle and drive around town for a
few hours, and afterwards you pick them up and go, ah, now that’s better, and then you put
them on. But it’s still pants. And old pants I mean there is plenty of poor people that have
old pants. So if you really want it go up to them and say, hey, I got this new pants and you
got some really cool old pants, you want to trade? Then it’s at least authentic.
Devotee (4): This thing of the Vedas have been lost, sometimes we hear how
Hayagriva…rescued the Vedas from that…demon…Matsyavatara. Exactly what are these
Vedas how these demons take half Vedas and Krsna…How does it work? What they do, they
kind of monopolize the sound, what they do?
Maharaja: Madhu and Kaitava when they took the Vedas they are mind demons. Because
you have to remember they are before the creation. They actually appear in the primary
creation, in Krsna’s creation they appear. So they have appeared before the external
manifestation of Brahma, and so they are very unique demons. So somehow or another they
enter Brahma’s heart and steal his memory. So they have taken, so he has memorized the
Vedas but they stole his memory, so he has no memory of the Vedas. And so then they run
off with that. So then Krsna kills them and then gives that back to Brahma. So that was the
Madhu and Kaitava.
The others then it’s just a matter of it’s there and so those who know the Veda are
saved. So when Manu is saved with Matsya it’s also with all the great sages. So they are the
ones carrying the Veda. Because see, means the Lord is there, so the Vedas are always there.
But when you have creation you have the manifestation, then one follows those forms of
that manifestation. In the spiritual world you don’t have creation, so you don’t have to make
this distinction. But it’s always there, so the culture is eternal, it’s sanatana-dharma,
everyone is engaged in the Lord’s service. But in the material world then you are getting a
reflection so the interest of the living entity is in the environment of Krsna consciousness,
not Krsna consciousness.
Devotee (4): …
Maharaja: The materialistic living entity is interested in the environment of Krsna
consciousness, but not the Krsna consciousness.
Devotee (1): The kingdom of God without God.
Maharaja: Means in other words, if you take the kingdom of God why is that nice?
Everything is nice, no one gets sick, everyone lives eternally, everyone is happy, there is
proper social order, there is care for each other, there is all the nice higher principles,
opulence, everything is there. Because people are God conscious that creates that
environment.
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In other words, you perform an activity it creates the future environment, that’s the
predestiny. I do an activity, I cook, so it’s going to create an environment. One, I am going
to have cooked food, so that I can serve people and we can have a nice interaction. At the
same time it also made a kitchen full of dirty dishes. So now what I do with that situation
that’s what then defines what’s happening. So then I go into the kitchen I clean, or I go out
and friends come and you serve prasada and everything is nice.
So that you perform an activity creates an environment. Then that gives you another
opportunity to perform activities again to create the environment. But in that it’s just an
expression of devotion. They are just variety of ways of expressing devotion. Because God
being unlimited, His energies being unlimited, the expression is unlimited.
But now when you come to the material world then people want all the facilities that
God conscious people have but without God. So therefore you get the reflection. You don’t
get the real thing, you get a reflection of it. You want to exploit the tree, but the tree is for
Krsna. So then they point out to you the reflection in the water and say you can have that.
We all have this tree here and there is so many of us, but you can have the whole tree over
there, and so then they go for it. So in illusion they think it’s a real tree.
Devotee (1): Is this consciousness the predominating consciousness in the heavenly planets?
In the hellish planets God consciousness that’s an…but they are extremely advanced.
Maharaja: They are advanced, they are pious. They are God conscious but it’s not favorable.
Rupa Goswami mentions in the Nectar of Devotion that the demons can sleep peacefully at
night, because they now if they do nothing wrong God won’t come and kill them. So they
have that trust and faith in Him that He always follows His position. So they are extremely
on the material platform pious, but they are only using that piety simply for sense
gratification, not for God conscious upliftment or any other kind of, that’s what makes
them. But they are conscious of God.
Because like here someone dies they just keel over and they are dead. But there
Sudarsana cakra comes and kills them. So if it’s time for you to die then suddenly Sudarsana
cakra appears, everybody knows, ok, now it’s somebody’s time, so they are going to be in
anxiety for a moment, waiting to see who does he kill. Then he comes kill somebody and
goes away, then they know, uh, it wasn’t me this time. Like that, poor guy. So in this way
they know God is there. They know Visnu is there, they know His Sudarsana. But they are
not interested in having a relationship with Him or, so like that. Like Kamsa these demons
can be God conscious.
That’s why Rupa Goswami is pointing out in pure devotional service being God
conscious isn’t enough, means at least it shows you are conscious. So that’s why the demons
are so expert at enjoying material energy. You have to be conscious to enjoy material energy,
because it’s energy, it’s feminine. If you are not conscious you don’t get a response from the
female nature. You can’t appreciate feminine interaction if you are not conscious at every
moment. You are conscious at every moment, every moment you are appreciating. That
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moment you are not, that moment something goes wrong. So they are totally committed to
material life, so they are totally conscious of it, and therefore they get it. And in that
consciousness you would have to be foolish to not know that God has something to do with
this. Because all the Vedic philosophies except for basically athetistic Sankhya they all
accept God is running the place, but none of them have an interest to be related to Him.
But they are all God conscious, that’s why they are all considered agnostic.
Devotee (1): I am thinking about Kaunteya Prabhu’s question about how these energies
work, where the demons have some power. I could be analyzed also say that in the case of I
think there was Duryodhana he found himself ashamed because Arjuna had to save him
from this Danavas (?), they came in the middle of the dream program. Would it mean that
in that lack of determination one also can become affected because…
Maharaja: Affected by?
Devotee (1): By this, this called demons…
Maharaja: But there influence by demons and actually being one. The more conscious one is
then the more one is pious or impious. The unconscious person is just a ho-hum guy. This is
what we call the mudha. The mudha is the common ordinary person who is not really very
conscious, doesn’t really understand why things happen, has his feelings and moods, he tries
to follow them, some of them are good, some of them are not, and he just tries to be his best,
but he has no real understanding what’s going on, because he is not conscious. Naradhamas,
mayayapahrta-jnanas, asuras are conscious. So they are conscious in different aspects. One
at knowledge, one is power, one is wealth. So they are conscious. So that’s why they stand
out. So that’s what makes them.
So Duryodhana there he is more conscious, but then the demons make him even more
conscious of what’s happening, what’s going on. Then we see he becomes even more of a
problem. Before that he was a bit of a problem, but you see he would give up. Sakuni a few
times had to encourage him. Before that Krsna came as a messenger. I mean not before that,
I think after that, Krsna came as a messenger, and then they had this idea with the
Pandavas’ strength is Krsna, so they know He is God and that they are devotees, so their
strength comes from God, so let’s get rid of God then the Pandavas will just perish. Just like
you have the queen bee, you get rid of the queen, and everybody else in the hive disappears.
So they made this special mechanical machine that when he sat on the, they gave him a
special seat, and when he sat on the seat they pulled the lever and it just went into the
ground, in one big tunnel and then they closed up. Then they thought, ok, done. And then
the whole, so they are rejoicing in their own way, because you have the palace they are big
and the court and everything and then the whole place starts to shake. And then in its
shaking then the floor cracks and then this monster, I mean monster peacock feather starts
to poke its way up through the floor like this, and then slowly the head until there was a
manifestation of the universal form. Duryodhana kind of again became disheartened, like
ok, we can’t do anything about Him, He is God, forget it, it’s not going to happen. But
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Sakuni again, no no, it’s just He is a mystic, He just some illusory power, don’t take it
seriously.
Because Sakuni’s point is you can’t destroy Duryodhana if he is actually favorably God
conscious. So you have to keep him in that demoniac mood and that pride and everything
like that. Because the idea is Sakuni’s business is to destroy the whole dynasty, not just
Duryodhana. Duryodhana killed his whole family. Kill him, ok, that’s nice, but to kill him
and all his brothers that would be a fitting revenge. Because there Sakuni’s dynasty is
finished. So the only one basically left is Gandari. So you have to do the same to
Duryodhana. So that’s not going to happen without a war. It’s not going to happen unless
you get Bhima so agitated that he decides to kill them all. Because otherwise they are good
people, they are cousins, they don’t like them, but you live with them. So he has to get it
where there is a reason where the Pandavas can kill them all and that will just be a war.
So does that, you understand Kaunteyaji? In other words, the living entity wants all the
facilities of God consciousness without being favorably God conscious or even needing to be
God conscious at all. Therefore then the material manifestation is there. So it’s all in
externals. So if you have the facility you think you are fine.
Like the man thinks I got the fancy house, I got the car, I got the suit, I got the watch, I
got a pen, I got the thing, I got the job, I fly around the world. He thinks he has made it. But
the point is what do you do with the car? What do you do with the house? What do you do
with your briefcase? That’s what actually decides whether you enjoy yourself or not. Because
the situation is simply a potential for relationship, it doesn’t mean you have one. The man
has a family doesn’t mean he actually has a relationship with them.
So that’s the difference, the transcendental living entities they have a relationship with
God, so therefore the yoga-maya creates the facility in which they can express that
relationship with God in an unlimited variety of manifestations. So for them it’s secondary.
Like in Vraja they notice it’s nice, but that doesn’t really matter because Krsna is nicer.
While in Dvaraka, in Vaikuntha then the form is important because God is who He is, so
everything must be the best, so therefore its opulence and this and that. So actually
Vaikuntha is less opulent than Vrndavana, but they notice it more. Vrndavana is more
opulent than Vaikuntha, but it’s something they laugh about.
It’s like you have a wall and on the wall in Nandagaun then they have part, there is life-
size one piece carved parrots out of green emeralds, solid green emerald that is fitted in the
wall on places to sit. So it looks like birds are sitting on the wall. You make little sticks, they
sit there. Real parrots come along they are so life-like, the real parrots come along sit down
next to him and talk to them and have a whole thing. So for in Vaikuntha is, oh, God is so
great, there is such opulence this and that. In Vrndavana it’s something you just laugh. Isn’t
that funny the parrot doesn’t even notice the emerald thing, it’s finished, it just adds some
little spark to the pastime.
So in maha-maya then all one gets is the reflection. So all those situations and facilities
that the residents of the spiritual world have those are recreated here, but the living entity
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thinks that this is my happiness. They don’t understand that real relationship is relationship
with God, all other relationships are based on that. So they think if I have the facility and
somehow or another try to work within relationship. I have my friends, my wife, this and
that. But it’s still enjoying the situation, it’s not actually them. The more you can include
them that’s called pious. The person who can actually include the friends and the family or
the society or the nation, that’s considered pious, that’s considered something very special,
they write about them in the history books. A few thousands years of your more recent
history how many people like that do you have? A few hundred. But there is millions or
billions of people who have lived during this time, but only a few stand out, because they
considered someone else. And so that is the element therefore it’s the externals what you
are dealing with. So in your religions then they are trying to connect those externals that
are very important to the living entity and make sure that they see that it’s for elevation
other than just for better sense enjoyment. They are trying to teach them about that
selflessness is what makes it go forward, but selflessness in connection with higher authority.
So even the demigod worshipers it’s still that’s the higher authority. Better than that are the
monotheistic. Better than that are the devotional.
Devotee (4): …within the traditional society of Krsna consciousness sometimes we see that
the stress is perhaps…environment like once a year the teacher will say how it’s easier to
preach Krsna consciousness than to be Krsna conscious. Sometimes we see how some
strategies focus on building the temples. And sometimes is seems apparently there is not that
kind of deep internal cultivation of Krsna consciousness. So how to address these
tendencies, in a social way?
Maharaja: Means you want to start from the inside out, you want that the external is the
natural manifestation of the mood. It shouldn’t be that they are different. Spiritual there is
no difference between the internal and external. Material there is a difference or can be a
difference. Means the point is now let us just take, ok, building temples, ok. Now as a
method it was very big let’s say very late 70s, early mid 80s, but now it matched them, why?
Because the volume of book distribution, preaching, making of devotees, all this was on a par
that you have a big temple you can do all these things nicely. You don’t have a big temple,
harder to do these things nicely. Means one guru in those days at one time will be initiating
200, 300 devotees, and that’s on Janmastami they do that, Vyasa-puja they do that, some
other like this. So there would be thousands and thousands of people being initiated every
year. That means that it was growing at that rate, everything was going, everybody knew
what Hare Krsna was, and it was you’d see devotees everywhere and stuff like that.
So it matched that you, the preaching and that missionary spirit is so strong that you
can accommodate more external manifestation. But nowadays to take that, but then some
will think, oh, if we build a temple people will come. No. Because a temple is a building. The
building has to have life. People go where there is life. So people were attracted by the life
therefore they would give support with facility that you could then increase the facility. So
in other words, the body is there because there is life. If there is no life, you bring in a dead
body to the doctor and say, can you do something about this? He’ll say, yeah, I can call the
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corner (?), I can call the morg (?). But they won’t do anything. So if there is life there then
there is worth doing something.
Prabhupada mentions if the finger is connected to the body then you can do anything
to, spend any amount of money to keep it there, but if it’s not then you don’t bother any
more. So that aspect is that mood is there, everything else will come. So the idea is because
people are into externals therefore external manifestation does have great benefits. But the
point is it should have life. If it doesn’t have life then it’s a museum.
They’ll come see, nice. Ok, yeah. Hey, the Hare Krsnas have some kind of oriental
architecture, interesting, and then that’s it. Maybe they’ll bring their friends again to see it.
You are in town, you want to see the sights, you can also see the Hare Krsna temple. But
other than that that’s it. So it has to be seen in its actual context that the external is to
manifest what is the mood. That’s why Krsna says here I Myself am the religions principles
enunciated in the Vedas. So Krsna is that temple, so if it’s not bringing out Krsna then what’s
the meaning? We have missed the point. Not that don’t build temples, but the point is give
life to. Because the point is one can build more temples, but see that there is life there first.
The ritual won’t produce the life. There is already life there. Life comes from life.
In other words, the method is ok, otherwise you have the thing, oh, we don’t care for
any externals this and that. Then you have a problem that then there is nothing to manifest
it through. And then because there is no form then it becomes speculative. That’s always
the problem there between the liberal and the conservative. In any religious things the
liberal it’s the mood that’s more important this that. But then in the process they get rid of
the external. And the conservative then they push the external, so there is consistency,
there is a community, but there is no life. The other one think that life will come from
nothing. So that’s always there, but that would probably be, that would be the general thing,
because there was the idea that there was some basic kind of ritual. But still that was a big
mistake of the reformers, they get rid of the form. If you are reforming you reform what’s
there.
Jesus didn’t kick out Judaism. He tried to give life to it. His followers then kicked out
Judaism and started something new, and then 1000 years down the line they wonder why
people kicks out what they made up, because that was the basis of their theology. If
Christians were Jewish by religion then you wouldn’t have all these different branches and
stuff like that. You’d just have more strict or less strict, more orthodox, more reformed, like
this and that. But they would all be of one social status. But now it’s all different. Because
they kicked out the form that it’s expressed through. And then the reformers kicked that
out, and your modern reformers then they kick even that out, and then you could probably
say Rousseau is your main spokesperson for the modern ideas that whatever you feel,
whatever you want to do, that’s Rousseau, that’s 1700s or 1800s. That means it’s not new. We
think, oh, that’s today’s thought. No, that’s Rousseau.
But the problem is without form, without restrictions, without discipline, how will good
come? There is this idea that the soul is inherently good, so therefore if I let the soul be free
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the natural goodness will come out. That’s the philosophy. You can say that is your modern
philosophy in a nutshell. But the problem is without form, without discipline and direction,
how will it manifest?
Devotee (1): Goodness is the predominant aspect of the brahminical class, I mean the
social… in the brahminical society. It’s not the moment that the society is…where it started
a more precise analysis of what is a brahmana, how to…
Maharaja: Prabhupada’s point was ISKCON is to create a class of brahmanas. Everybody else
can create the rest of it. If you have brahmanas, the brahmanas can create ksatriyas, they
can create everything else. Vaisyas are already doing business, sudras are already looking for
a job. So you have to create brahmanas. But if you don’t create brahmanas, which are the
head, then basically what you’ll get is something that just runs around. The famous
American saying running around like a chicken with their head cut off. Because when they
cut off a chicken’s head it runs around for a while.
So the problem is if you start with we’ll create a class of bureaucrats, bureaucrats are
sudras, they are feet, so you are not going to get a society by establishing feet, you are going
to get a society by establishing a head. So that’s the principle.
So basically what is trying to come across here, essence of all this, because this is in
general this chapter, what was this one called, Eternal Religion and the Differences of
Caste. So they are looking at eternal religion, difference of caste, because now in this you
should be able to get the whole complete picture. But unfortunately we always
compartmentalize, so now, ok, that dealt with caste, then the next chapter is, well, what
about household life and interacting with the material world, being practical, that will come
up, but it’s still eternal religion in that. So he goes through I think ten chapters of sanatana-
dharma and this, sanatana-dharma and that. Well, I think it’s all, it’s easy…look at its table
of content.
Then you have Eternal Religion is the Vaisnava Religion, then Vaidhi-bhakti, then
Differences of Caste, Householder Life, Ordinary Activities, Eternal Religion, Eternal
Religion in Modern Science Civilization. Remember this book was written 150 years ago.
Eternal Religion and History, Eternal Religion and Deity Worship, Eternal Religion and
Devotional Service in Practice. Then once all those are there we have cleared the
attachments to the mundane and the mundane approach, now we can get down to the pure
philosophy. Then it says, sambandha, abhidheya, prayojana. That becomes the thing. Then
ten chapters of sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana according to dasa-mula. So we see the
first ten chapters are just clearing the mundane, doubts about that. Then after that then you
are introducing deity worship and devotional service in, means your Pancaratra and your
vaidhi-sadhana. Then you get down to the philosophy and everything.
So this element is out that this form and the mood are non-different, but unfortunately
in the material world you can separate them because the reason the form and the mood are
non-different is because Krsna is the mood, Krsna is the form, everything is. There is
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nothing that’s not. It’s His energies, it’s His qualities, it’s His manifestations, so therefore
everything you interact with and you get any feeling or inspiration about is Krsna, that’s
where it’s coming from is Krsna. So in the spiritual world then they are always inspired in
thinking about Krsna. Isn’t that nice, Krsna is nice, they think about Krsna. Oh, isn’t that
beautiful, Krsna is beautiful, they think about Krsna. Oh, wasn’t that clever, so they think
about Krsna. Krsna is clever. You have Madhumangala, he says something clever, then that
reminds them of Krsna because He is clever. So everything is Krsna.
So for the conditioned living entity he thinks it’s not connected, that’s the illusion. So
because of that then it’s just form. And if it’s not going to be connected to God, since all the
emotions and feelings and relationships are all coming from God, then you have to deal
simply with externals to identify that you do have a relationship. It’s not actually has any
substance. So somebody he has his wife or has his family, is very attached, the mood that he
gets everything, and then they are lost in some way, but how is it he can remember and
move on? How is it 50 years later he is still going to the cemetery putting the flowers there
and talking to his wife? Because that’s gone, that living entity is there, you just have a stone
there and some grass, but because who that wife was was Krsna’s potency and that particular
manifestation of wifeness was Krsna and Krsna is always present, therefore you can always
talk to Him. Though you think it’s that body and soul when it actually is Krsna.
This is the point that he is trying to get across, it’s Krsna, that’s all there is. That’s why
he says there is only one religion. Everything else is a temporary manifestation of a part of
this eternal religion. And all there is is Krsna. So everything is Him. So that relationships
that are there is all Him. So those forms are simply in connection with God. So if you see it
that way, then you have actually understood. But if you see the forms as separate, that
simply if we make the temple then we are God conscious, then you have missed the point.
No, God consciousness goes along with making the temple. While you are making the
temple you are God conscious. It will make others God conscious. So it has to be
simultaneous.
But Prabhupada would emphasize the form because Westerners are so much into form.
So since they are going to be dealing in form anyway, then deal in that form for Krsna. And
as Westerners since you always have to do something big and be the best then do something
big and the best for Krsna. Therefore big temple, big this, big that, all these different things.
That’s just in general all Westerners. In India they wouldn’t do that. Only those who had
that kind of culture then they would speak to them like that.
Westerners even the most common person thinks he is special, unique, and has to do
something big, and what he does is really special. He goes out and buys himself just some
new clothes and he thinks he is really special even though they were on sale at Kmart and
he thinks he is really great. But walking down the street next to him is somebody who went
into some other place and just one piece of clothes cost him 1000 bucks and then there is the
other pieces, then the accessories. So he is walking down the street for his 4995 special on
his he got his pants and his shirt. While the person next to him is walking down the street
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with 10000 dollars worth of apparel. So the Kmartwalla thinks he looks good and the Gucci
– Louis Vetant – Christian York (?) knows they look good. And then they are going. Then
there is the person who has from the same company but they have the one that they have
made only one of those and so they really know they look good. That just cook him 50000
bucks for that skirt. While that same skirt basically was on the floor that the other one
bought for 1000, which actually you could have bought also at Kmart for 39.95. But the thing
is the Kmart one they make 10000 of them. The other shop they only made 500 of them or
100 of them. The other one they only made one of them.
Devotee (1): Actually the…
Maharaja: The same stuff, but it’s all made in China by the same grandma there.
Means in India you would see someone who is from a caliber that could preach like that
you would talk to them about that. Like Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura he talked in
general but he talks specifically to Prabhupada about preaching in the West, printing books.
He didn’t talk to the others, because they can’t do it. Because they identify, I can do big
things, or, yes, I am just a small guy, I just do this. So their ego doesn’t drive them on. So the
Westerners unless they do something big they are not engaging their ego. While like the
Asians or other parts they don’t have that kind of ego, and so maybe in a different way, and
so therefore you don’t emphasize that. Those who have that you talk to them about it. It’s
slightly different. That’s why in the West you would see so much emphasis on the external.
But because India is following the Western therefore if they’ll catch the devotee Western
manifestation of external then they are also brought into Krsna consciousness.
So you just have to see the situation, accordingly you speak. So now you would talk more
external in India. Before you wouldn’t. Before it’s just you become a devotee, how you dress
and that doesn’t change. You still have your same pair of pants and same shirt and you still
comb your hair in the same way and everything like that. But you find like the India teenage
Hare Krsnas they got to have the t-shirt, they got to have the this the that, so now then
that’s the way you catch them. But before that wasn’t necessary.
So external has its use in that it is a medium to express the mood. But that’s all the more
it’s for. Because the point is the manifestations of Krsna aren’t as important as Krsna
Himself, because there is a non-difference. But let’s say Krsna is God is not as important as
Krsna the person who just happens to be God. The Vrajavasis Krsna can be God or not they
don’t care. He wants to do that in His spare time what do they care? But their point is just
Krsna He Himself is so wonderful whether He is God or not. But in Dvaraka it’s because He
is the Supersoul, He is God, that’s why He is important. In Vaikuntha He is definitely God.
So therefore in the mood and the manifestation though technically they are non-
different, because everything is Krsna, so there is a non-difference. The stone has the
quality of hardness, so the stone itself and hardness are non-different. But at the same time
it’s the quality of hardness that’s important about the stone, not that just it’s a stone.
Construction people collect stones because they are hard. Or if you go by the beauty of it
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then artists collect it because it’s beautiful, not because it’s a stone. So their beauty could be
manifest in a stone or in a flower they found or a piece of drift wood, they are looking for
beauty, they are looking for Krsna, and so Krsna has so many forms of beauty. And then
according to their conditioning what forms of beauty they are attracted they collect those.
But it’s actually Krsna in the form of beauty that they are looking for.
So the form, it’s just like Krsna has a particular mood, He is angry, therefore He
manifests as Nrsimhadeva. So the form is to follow the expression of the actual mood so
there is non-difference. But in the material platform in material consciousness people make
a difference, therefore we talk about this and that. But technically there is no this and that,
there is only Krsna. There is only that. But there is superior manifestations and inferior
manifestations.
So one understands that then one knows how to deal with form. In other words, what is
the purpose of administrative machinery?
Devotee (5): The first thing comes to mind is getting things done.
Maharaja: Ok, but what is it that you want to get something done, what is that getting done
in support of?
Devotee (5): In support of the mission.
Maharaja: The mission, and what is the mission trying to do?
Devotee (5): …
Maharaja: So in other words, if that machinery doesn’t support God consciousness what’s
the use of it? So if God consciousness is the thing then you look at what mechanics do that.
But if it’s only efficiency of management then the point has been missed. The emphasis
comes too much on the form and not enough on the life of that form. Because if we actually
look at it in reality the life of bureaucracy is the leader who the bureaucracy belongs to.
Means the king is the life, he is administration. Bureaucracy is a tool to assist in
administration. Bureaucracy is not administration. It’s become that way, that comes from, it
actually started in France. Somehow or another much of whatever happens in Europe it
started in France or Italy.
In France Lious XIV figured out that if he brings things into more of a nationalistic kind
of environment creates an administration that has a lot of bureaucracy and in that he is able
to encourage free trade so he can take taxes he can build an army. Because beforehand is
nowadays we talk about they send in 50000 troops, 100000, 300000, you are talking about
these world wars millions of people dying, but if you go back actually look in history they
don’t talk about it much. You had the battle of this and that between this king and that,
sometimes they only had 300 men, 500 men. Someone was like big he had 10000 men, no
one messed with that guy, that’s all he had.
So Lious XIV figured out that by taking taxes and by reorganizing the state, that you
centralized the government, rather than leave it feudal, because feudal means each little guy
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has, they don’t cooperate, so how much he, what villages he can control he can have that
many men. But if you make it a state, you centralize it, then you can have these huge
standing armies, him being the first one to do it he took over Europe, at least they tried. But
then everybody saw if they don’t this, they don’t leave the feudal system and move to the
centralized system they are not going to make it. And those who didn’t lost. Some didn’t
Poland was very powerful, the autonome (?) power was very powerful, but they would not
centralize. Therefore they maintained the feudal and aristocracy and those kind of things
and it all fell apart. Poland the aristocracy refused to pay tax and wouldn’t get involved in
all these things. They wanted their own thing. So it fell apart, everyone else came and slowly
slowly they ate the whole country. There was no Poland for 150 years. France was smart.
They did that, everyone else followed.
But then in doing that the emperor instead of actually being the head of the state was
the most prominent servant of the state, which now is considered like officially position.
The President of America is the first citizen. He is the number one citizen. In other words,
he is the number one servant of the system. So technically speaking it’s not actually ksatriya.
It’s not actually ksatriya. It’s actually based on economics, it’s economic-based. It’s not
actually protecting the people, it’s the system that allows the maximum amount of economy
to be generated that could be tabbed to in one sense seem to hold the whole thing together.
It’s just a different system. If they didn’t use that system then like that you would have little
neighborhoods and little areas and that guy is in charge and he takes tax from that area and
that’s it and haribol, and the people still go on living. In this way they just do it on a big
national scale and nowadays international scale, but it’s the same thing. They do it bigger
you need more money. You do it smaller you need less money.
But these kind of things they have created, so that bureaucracy kind of, that concept
was created by the French or Louis XIV. And then Louis XVI wasn’t powerful enough to
pull it off. He couldn’t get his aristocracy to pay the taxes. So he had to tax the people much
more, because now he had the system that required huge bureaucracies and army, and then
because they wouldn’t pay the tax. They didn’t want to pay the tax to people because they
couldn’t, and the aristocracy who had money wouldn’t, then it was revolution. Revolution I
think within three or four months. Within a year then he was out.
And then again Napoleon came, he was strong, powerful, he pulled the whole thing
together. He dropped it even more, he just kind of like cut out the whole aristocracy. You
were qualified you had a position. You do something for the state you are qualified. You
don’t do something for the state you are not qualified. I think that’s what Bismarck did or
something like that, or before Bismarck, that was the German thing. They completely wiped
out the aristocracy. They just established that who does something for the state they have a
position. Other things are socially you do that. Like in America there is a class of Americans
who their families were there before the American Revolution or came at that time. So they
considered themselves in their unique category because they are like the original, everybody
in an immigrant. Even though they were immigrants. It’s just something to create amongst
themselves, but it doesn’t really carry much weight officially in the government, though a
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lot of people from those families, those are families that are very prominent in your old
school politics, all these families, they go way back, like Kennedy’s and this and that, they
are from these kind of families.
Devotee (1): This aristocracy can be designated as a brahminical class within, even
though…
Maharaja: Which?
Devotee (1): This aristocracy for instance…
Maharaja: Because aristocract just means any kind of leader, so they could be brahmanas,
ksatriyas, or vaisyas. Anyone who has power and influence it becomes down, because
aristocracy specifically means vaisyas, but it also would mean your ksatriyas and all that. But
they would be the ones that are not in the main position, ksatriyas who aren’t the king,
brahmanas who somehow or another have a lot of land and power and are involved in that,
you would call them in aristocracy, means in other words, he’d stand out. But otherwise
specifically default that generally means like the Bourgeois. So it’s the people with money
therefore they have influence. They didn’t have money who’d care. Like that so that became
more prominent.
Why I am saying is the same mistakes that moved the state from being religion and state
are non-different, but because of a lack of theology, in other words, the Christians didn’t
maintain their theology, they removed so much of it in their counsils. In trying to bring
Christianity together they removed so much of the old tenets and stuff like that, they put so
much on the form of it, formalizing it, and then you had your leaders like I think it was
Julian of the East Empire he formalized the whole thing, the state, how everything worked,
the government, the taxes, and the religion. Because he is the one that had the first counsil,
so he did that. That in the process of doing that you don’t lose the life. Because otherwise if
you lose the life then at some point, because of a lack of theology, the ritual, the religion
can’t explain why you are doing something, and, in fact, it gets in the way because religion is
to elevate you back to Godhead. But here it’s getting in the way of economic development,
sense gratification, your own free experience. So because they can’t explain why you have to
follow the ritual therefore then it becomes separated. And then you have two things, your
intellectual and your religionist. But then at some point people then will doubt the religion
and cut it out completely, and then it becomes atheistic.
So that’s what happened in the age of enlightenment, this atheistic approach to
philosophy, science, and administration, was completely separated from religion. Up to that
point there was some mix. But after that then it was completely separated. Because fair
enough because the religion wasn’t able to explain things, but it’s not proper that it should
be. It should be religion should get it together and be able to explain its own theology, that’s
the actual position.
So what I am saying is a move away from the brahminical and understanding the
philosophy, being fixed in it, being fixed in the practice, and that’s the drive for dealing
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with the externals of the material world that’s fine, that’s perfect. But if one simply moves
away and is being practical, good management, it’s going to go down the same road that the
world has gone down and they did it hundreds and thousands of years ago. And so what we
see today is a result. But they are karmis they move slower, we are devotees, much more
powerful, it moves much quicker. So what might take them hundreds of years or a thousand
years to do we can do in a few years. So we have to take that in mind.
If we want to say the modern has some validity then learn from it, learn what actually it
is. Because all the things you talk about these things were created before, these were the so-
called great thinkers of their times thinking about administration and all that, I think, what
do they call it, I’ll be able to tell you in a couple of days, but I think it’s called liberal
tolerance, I think that’s the name, it might be something else. That’s the official name of the
present-day government positions that we would call correct, politically correct, your First
World, that is the administrative formula. You are liberal towards things that don’t get in
the way of economics, so you tolerate all, because if you don’t tolerate, war and other things
are more of a problem. So only go to war if it’s going to make you money, if it’s going to do
something for you. But they are tolerant, not that they agree, but just they are tolerant. But
to do that basically means you have nothing else other than sense gratification and
economics is your main thrust. Because if it is something else then how do you tolerate stuff
that’s irreligious? So that formula is the natural sequence of events, because it’s God’s
creation, there is laws, you start a path it goes and it ends up in this particular way. So that’s
one always has to look at that.
That’s why the Vedas are the only thing that is able to accommodate all the different
needs and mentalities and pull them all together that it’s consistent. Otherwise it takes
everything into consideration. Your particular political leader, or your particular religious
leader, or your particular philosopher, or philanthropist, or reformer, they are only seeing
that one particular program. Otherwise if they were seeing in the broader picture why would
the reformists have removed in Western Europe why would they have removed the Catholic
Church? Why would they do that? All they want is that the whole let’s say papal hierarchy
is not based on simply power and money, but it should be based on devotion. But that’s all
thrown out.
People are attracted, they are inspired because they go to the Church regularly and are
guided through religious ceremonies. And it’s not that when they are not in the home they
don’t pray and aren’t God conscious, but they are so much more of an effect when it’s
congregational, but they throw out the congregational aspect, the hierarchy aspect, though
they themselves create their own Churches. So they are not seeing the bigger picture.
They don’t see that simply upgrade what’s there. That’s what Jesus was trying to do, he
didn’t try to throw out the Jews and their system, not at all. He simply preached the purity
and like this. But they have turned it into power and everything like that. And because then
you could separate it, it wasn’t just connected like that, then you had Cardinal Richoulou
(?), so he actually is what because Louis couldn’t pull it together the last one, he actually
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pulled it together and put France on the top. But he did it in his secular position, he was a
cardinal, but he did it through his secular power, not through his religious power. So it
became so separated that they could act in two capacities.
So therefore you can see form is important, form gets things done, form is practical, like
you said it gets things done. But the form without the life that form is useless or let’s say it’s
useless because it’s misapplied, and the result it gets is useless. So getting something done is
not enough. It has to get done what has actually life. That’s real getting something done.
And which can be done on a much greater scale. That’s the thing pulling together those, it’s
just like if you want to pull together people based on political correctness you’d only have a
few people that are interested. There are only a few devotees that are interested in political
correctness, I mean literally, it’s not that many. You go around congregations, most people,
they just don’t care. A few people who move on these big circles it means something to
them, very narrow, narrow, like that, but they feel they are representing the world, that’s
the problem with liberals. They think they are, liberals think they are representing the
world, and conservatives say, no, this is what the world should be doing. So the point is
missed.
The point is missed that it actually has nothing to do with the reality. So the
management that goes on gets something done, but gets it only done for a very narrow
segment of population. While the Vedic culture then the religion, the philosophy, the
practical management and administration and ecomonics, justice, sense gratification, it’s all
rolled together in one perfectly balanced picture. So it may take a little longer because you
are doing something more. Just like if I want to put together a soap box, a thing with wheels
for the kid to ride down the.
Devotee (6): A durby (?) car.
Maharaja: A durby car, yeah, I mean it doesn’t take much. You go into the garage, look for a
few pieces of wood, some wheels, put it on, a couply of hours, dad who is competent can put
one together. Now let us say you want to make a Ferrari, a little bit it takes a little longer.
Or a Rolls Royce it’s hand-made it takes longer. But what you get is so far superior.
So if all the thing is immediate results like that, yes, and you’ll get that temporary and
that narrow of a result. You want something serious you have to see the bigger picture.
Otherwise if it’s just simply how to get through a meeting then, how to survive this year’s
two weeks, hey. It’s not going to give any lasting benefit and anybody is actually going to
care about, except for those other people on the internet that happened to be on your
conference.
If that mood is there you can do everything. Prabhupada had that mood.
Devotee (4): Which mood? That mood of…
Maharaja: Sticking to the essence and then seeing how to express that essence through the
form that’s suitable for what.
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Hayagriva is a professor therefore he gets him to edit books and do this and that.
Mukunda is able to move in all these musician circles, he arranges programs. Because he is
the life. And then they catch that life then they can already express it through what they
have. But to start on, oh, we got to impress the musicians and this and that, and go out and,
well, we should dress like they and do what they, no. Mukunda, Syamasundara, they didn’t
have to dress as karmis and they were working with some of the biggest musicians. Because
real people are impressed by you being who you are.
Mother Theresa it didn’t matter where she went in the world she’d wear a same Bengali
blue sari. It’s a Bengali sari. It’s not a Christian sari, it’s not an Indian sari, it’s not European,
it was Bengali. And she wore it no matter where she went, who she talked to, and she talked
to the biggest people, in fact, she even got canonized. They thought she was pretty good.
And that’s so who she is.
I have even heard people make comments at these ISKCON what do you call it when
they get everybody together and try?
Devotee: Interfaith.
Maharaja: Interfaith and things like this. And the nuns show up in their habits, the priests
show up in their outfits, we show up dressed as karmis. And they actually make comments,
that if you actually had faith in your religion why don’t you dress in your own dress? We
may not like it, but more disturbing to us is that we don’t like your dress, more disturbing is
that you don’t have faith enough to wear it. And I guarantee you there is a lot more karmis
that think like that that are impressed that we can wear karmi clothes like them, because
generally we are not very impressive in our karmi clothes either. So it’s not even we have set
it, well, yeah, the Hare Krsna, yeah, they dress well.
It’s like at one time they hired some big PR lady or something out of LA and they said
trying to be very pakva, what’s the one thing that we could do to really make a difference in
people’s perception of us? She said, wear the same-color socks. Because one devotee would
wear a green one and a red one and haribol. So they take it you are devotional, but nobody
wants to get involved, like I like to wear the same-color socks, I don’t know if I could be a
Hare Krsna.
In other words, on the material platform that’s not where you impress. If you are a
religious society you impress them religiously, philosophically, the broadness of your vision,
that depth of your vision, because people are looking for that, they are looking for depth,
they are looking for reality. People are looking for something real. Means the people who
have all the money and power are looking for something real. And we are saying, oh, I am
being real, I am being like these people in their material life. And they are looking for what
we got. And we are saying I am being real, I got what they got.
So that’s why I am saying, you understand the life, then you can take on any form.
Yudhisthira Maharaja is a devotee, he could give life to an empire. No problem. So using
material things is not the problem. The problem is does it have the life? That’s the thing. So
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you can’t compromise life for so-called practical. It’s let’s say for the career mum it’s actually
because the weekends are free, it’s actually it would be more practical to feed her kids only
on the weekend, but if she did that they might be dead by the weekend. So then it’s not
really practical for she wants to get done. Therefore she must compromise, take some time
out of her career and actually make breakfast and dinner for her kids. But it’s not as
efficient as far as career goes.
So that’s the thing, management is a support for life, not life has to work around
management. Management works around the situations that are there, but it doesn’t adjust
life. (end of lecture)
Maharaja: That was all from our history course.

Devotee (6): When you said you’ll be able to give the answer in a few days means you are…
Maharaja: Well, it’s just I am editing our history course, but this is the main bulk of it. It’s
just the religious cultivations that have happened. (end)
April 15, 2010

Maharaja:
The Katha Upanisad (1.2.15 and 1.3.9) explains:
“All the Vedas describe the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...Now I will
briefly describe that abode to you.”
“The realm of Lord Visnu is the supreme spiritual abode.”
He quoted from Bhagavatam to establish Krsna’s position. But now he has quoted from
Upanisads. So very hard to disregard that. The smartas can’t disregard Upanisads because
they prefer to stick to the Veda, to sruti, and so then if you quote from sruti then they can’t
disregard it. But if you quote from Bhagavatam, even though it’s correct, if they like it then
they’ll quote it, but if they don’t like it, then they’ll disregard it. But here so Upanisads.
When the discussion had reached this point the faces of Devi Vidyaratna and his
associates had become pale and withered. The great pandita teachers were completely
demoralized. It was no five o’clock. Everyone said, “Let us end the meeting now.” Everyone
agreed, and the meeting ended. With one voice the brahmana panditas praised the learning
of Vaisnava dasa. Chanting the holy names of Lord Hari as they went, the Vaisnavas
returned to their homes.
So they didn’t like, but they could see the erudition, so they could appreciate. So it
wasn’t that just because they got defeated that they are not going to appreciate. So that’s
there. So now Vaisnava dasa has established that there is only one religion. There isn’t
anything else. And therefore everything is about Lord Visnu. So now the next chapter.
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Chapter Seven
Eternal Duties, Household Life, and the Material World
Nitya-dharma o samsara
On the bank of the Sarasvati was an ancient merchant town named Saptagrama. Since a
long time a thousand merchants and bankers have lived there. By the mercy of Lord
Nityananda, since the time of Sri Uddharana Datta these merchants have enthusiastically
chanted the holy names of Lord Hari.
So this Saptagrama this is also the village that’s on the other side of the river on the
Howrah side just down a bit from Howrah, that’s where the whole Mallik family comes from.
So historically like Prabhupada’s relatives would go back to this village. So they have been
blessed, this village has been blessed by Lord Nityananda, they are all devotees.
Devotee (1): Didn’t it call it Sarasvati river? Is it?
Maharaja: Ok, maybe it’s a different Saptagrama.
Devotee (1): But Lord Nityananda went there, too.
Maharaja: But you would get the idea it’s in Bengal, because sometimes this is called
Sarasvati also. So you are never quite sure exactly what’s…
Fearing that much money would be spent, a merchant named Candi dasa would not join
the people of the town in chanting the holy names of Lord Hari. By living very frugally, he
had accumulated a lot of money. His wife Damayanti, who had contracted this nature from
her husband, would not give due respect to Vaisnavas or guests. In their youth this
merchant couple had four sons and two daughters. Marrying off first one and then the other
daughter, the couple carefully kept their great wealth to give to their sons. When Vaisnavas
never visit a home, the children naturally do not become very kind or generous. These
qualities become stunted. As the children grew up they became more and more selfish. Eager
to get their inheritance, they yearned for their parent's deaths.
So they are keeping their money for them, but because of the method of doing that,
then the money is there for the children, but the relationship becomes ruined. The point is
you can’t, there is this concept of, the ends justify the means doesn’t work. It’s a completely
bogus concept. The means that you use to get an end is the end you’ll get, not something
else. One has to be careful like this.
So here now these parents they will say, why are our children so different? We have
given everything, sacrificed everything for them. But they are misers, so the children are
misers. So then because of this, then they are only interested in money. So many times
parents will think that their children are very different from them, but actually they are
not, they are exactly the same. So the bad qualities, just the qualities may manifest in a
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different way, because their situation is different, one is parents, one is a children. But it’s
the same nature, the same qualities will be there. So we can see here Bhaktivinoda Thakura
is pointing out when they are not connected to the Vaisnavas, don’t get that exposure, then
problems will come up.
The unhappiness of the merchant couple knew no bounds. One by one of the sons were
also married. Imbibing their husband's nature, the daughters-in-law also began to wish their
husband's parents would die. When they became able, the sons divided their father's wealth,
and set themselves up as merchants.
One day Candi dasa called together his sons and said, "Look. By living frugally since
childhood, I have accumulated some wealth for your sakes. For all this time your mother and
I have not eaten good food or dressed in nice clothing. Now we are growing old and you
should take care of us. That is your duty. However, I see that you are not inclined to take
care of us, and that has made me very sad. I have some wealth hidden away, and I will give to
whomever amongst you acts like a good son.
Hearing these words, the sons and their wives became silent. Meeting in another place,
they all decided that the best thing would be to send father and mother far away and then
take the hidden money, for there was no saying to whom the old man would wrongly give it.
All were sure the wealth was hidden in the father's bedroom.
The father's eldest son was named Nari-carana. One morning he said to his father,
"Father, you and mother should go and see Sridhama Navadvipa. In that way your human
life will be successful. I have heard that in the age of Kali no holy place is as sacred and
auspicious like Navadvipa. To travel to Navadvipa is neither difficult nor expensive. If you
cannot walk, for two panas a boat can take you there. If you wish, a Vaisnava lady is willing
to accompany you there.
It could be it’s another river going into the Ganga because there is all these rivers on
that side of the Ganga that are all coming in, because he says you can take a boat to get
there.
Candi dasa consulted with his wife, Damayanti. She was very happy. The two talked.
"Your words the other day brought our sons to their senses. We are not so weak that we
cannot walk. Passing through Kalna and Santipura, let us go to Sridhama Navadvipa."
But then that’s the other side of Kalna. So it is that direction.
Noting an auspicious day, the two began their pilgrimage. Walking and walking, on the
next day they came to Ambika.
That’s Kalna.
Staying there at a merchant's place, they cooked and ate their meal. A man from
Saptagrama came there and told them, "Your sons broke into your room and took all your
belongings. They will not allow you to return home. They have taken all your hidden
wealth."
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Upon hearing this Candi dasa and his wife lamented greatly. On that day they would
not eat. They wept and wept. The Vaisnava lady accompanying them said, "Don't be
attached to your home. Continue traveling. Renounce the world. Meet the Vaisnavas. They
for whom you have done so much have now become your enemies. Now you cannot return
home. Continue traveling. You can stay in Navadvipa. By begging you can eat. All will be
well."
Hearing of what their sons and daughters-in-law had done, Candi dasa and his wife said
again and again, "We will not return home. It is better that we give up our lives. That would
be best."
After that they stayed at the home of a Vaisnava in Ambika-grama. After two or four
days they went to see Santipura and then they went to Navadvipa. There they stayed in
Mayapura, in the home of a relative who was a merchant. They stayed for two or four days
and then went to see the seven villages of Navadvipa, and, on the other side of the Ganga,
the seven villages of Kuliya-grama. After a few days love for their sons and daughters-in-law
again arose in their hearts.
Candi dasa said, "Come. Let us go to Saptagrama. Will not our sons love us even a little?"
Then the Vaisnava lady who was accompanying them said, "Have you no shame? They will
kill you. Hearing this, the old couple became afraid. They said to her, "O saintly Vaisnava,
please return to your home. We will live alone. We will approach a saintly person, learn
from him, and live by begging."
The Vaisnava lady left. The merchant couple gave up all hope of returning home. They
considered building a new home in the Chakari Catta neighborhood of Kuliya-grama. After
begging from many good people, they were able to build a cottage. In sacred Kuliya-grama
past offenses are all forgiven. When a person lives there his past offenses are thrown far
away. That is what is said about that place.
One day Candi dasa said, "O mother of Hari, why do you continue like this? Don't say
anything more about your sons. Don't even think of them. In our past lives we must have
committed many, many offenses. That is why we took birth in the homes of merchants.
Because of that low birth we became misers and refused to serve Vaisnavas and guests. If
here we can make a little money, we should use it to serve guests. Then our next birth will
be good. I have set my mind to open a grocery store.
So here it’s because in the Gita it mentions this element of the merchant being not a
good birth, a low birth, because here we see the aspect that in this case it’s being refered as
not devotees. Devotees no matter what position they are in that’s auspicious, that’s special.
But if one is not a devotee and one is a merchant then the problem is one will be very
miserly. One will be only worried about his money, collecting money, just thinking about
money, that’s all. And as we see not so worried about relationships and other things like that
as much. They are attached, but they don’t understand actually how relationships are
cultivated through devotional service. Because remember this chapter is about sanatana-
dharma and household life in the material world, so how to connect that all together.
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After a few days of striving in that way, Candi dasa finally opened a small store. Every
day he earned a small profit. After eating a full meal, every day the husband and wife fed a
guest. Candi dasa lived better than he did before.
So now he has nothing but he is actually eating and doing better because now whatever
money extra he gets is just for taking care of guests. He is not trying to hord it away so
therefore he wants to make it more, so he eats less and less and is very austere. So the thing
is we see he is very austere but it’s not that the relationships improve. The mundane doesn’t
necessarily improve relationships. Because actual relationships are based on connection to
Krsna. Everyone is connected to Krsna, you are connected with Krsna, you are connected
with everyone. You try to connect to others but are not connected to Krsna, then you are
not actually connected to anybody. It’s like the principle of watering the root. You can
water the leaves but it won’t actually get any benefit. So it’s direct.
So here we see Bhaktivinoda Thakura in very pleasant ways is being very bold in his
statements. So in other words, he is saying there is no other religion than the Vaisnava
religion, that’s sanatana-dharma. And he says there is no ther way to actually accomplish
happiness or satisfaction even on the material platform other than with devotees and
devotional service. Because one may say, oh, but there is so many people that are wealthy
and famous and materialistic who are not devotees, but if you check in their life, are they
actually happy? If they are happy then why is it the sons are one way, they are another, just
like this, they are divorced so many times, they are miserable. If you actually check into
their lives, nothing special in reality. So relationships can only actually be really cultivated
properly in connection with Krsna. That’s the basis thing. So this is very important.
So as we see before the Vedic ritual is Krsna. So you are following that ritual to please
Krsna then all your relationships will go nice. If you follow the ritual but not to please
Krsna, because the ritual is Krsna you will get benefit, there will be piety, things will work
nicely, but temporarily. So for the same hard work that you perform the ritual you’ll only get
temporary material results. But now if that same work is done in connection to Krsna then
not only will the material results be there but the transcendental. But that’s not the motive.
The motive is to please Krsna. But this comes on the side.
You take prasada, you are honoring prasada, at the same time your hunger goes away. So
the main thing is honoring the prasada, you do that then you get the most benefit.
Otherwise if you don’t, it’s just doing to fill your stomach, then there is always going to be
dissatisfaction with this food or that food or so many things. So the mundane dissatisfaction
will come along with it even though you are taking prasada. But if you are taking prasada to
serve Krsna then you’ll be happy. The material is taking care of and you’ll be satisfied,
spiritual is there everything is there.
So Bhaktivinoda Thakura has very just nicely written it into a novel, but very bold stuff
he is saying.
Candi dasa was a little educated. In his spare moments at the store he would read
Gunaraja Khana's book of Sri Krsna-vijaya. He was honest in buying and selling and he
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would serve guests. In this way five or six months passed. When they learned his story, the
people of Kuliya-grama began to have faith in Candi dasa.
So he is honest in buying and selling. So he would buy at a proper price, sell at a proper
price. He wouldn’t cheat people to buy, he wouldn’t cheat people to sell.
It was in that neighborhood that Yadava dasa lived. Yadava dasa was a household
Vaisnava. He would read Sri Caitanya-mangala. Sometimes Candi dasa would listen to him
reading. Yadava dasa and his wife liked to serve the Vaisnavas. Seeing them, Candi dasa and
his wife also came to like serving the Vaisnavas.
So by association, you see Candi dasa because he was a miser, by his association his wife
became miserly. By both of their association the children became miserly. By that then their
spouses became miserly. So here now they associate with people who like to serve. So now
they develop it.
One day Candi dasa asked Yadava dasa, "What is the material world?" Yadava dasa
replied, "On the other shore of the Ganga, on the island of Godruma, live many learned
Vaisnavas. Go there. Ask them this question. I go there sometimes and in that way I learn
many things. Nowadays the Vaisnava panditas in Sri Godruma are better scripture scholars
than even the brahmana panditas. Yesterday an assembly of brahmana panditas were
defeated in debate by Sri Vaisnava dasa Babaji. He will give a good answer to your question.
So that was the history, but now it’s brought it up to date. So now he is saying, just
yesterday this happened. So this Kuliya-grama that I know of is the village that we call
Navadvipa, because technically it’s not Navadvipa. There was a village there, but because
the smarta brahmanas who were living over there then they wanted to establish Lord
Caitanya’s birthplace so that they could get the benefits of running such a temple. So they
established what they say is Lord Caitanya’s birthplace over there, and because Lord
Caitanya lived in the village of Navadvipa, and so they say that’s Navadvipa. But at
Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s time that was only 100 years old, that was one of the things he
found. So it will be back that side somewhere. So now they are saying in Godruma, which is
in Svarupa-ganja, that’s where all these Vaisnavas live, Vaisnava dasa.
That afternoon Yadava dasa and Candi dasa crossed the Ganga. Damayanti was now
accustomed to serve the Vaisnavas. The miserliness in her heart had lessened. She said, "I
will go with you to Sri Godruma." Yadava dasa said, "The Vaisnavas there are not
householders. They are renunciants. I think they will not be happy to have you in their
midst." Damayanti said, "I will offer dandavat obeisances from afar. I will not enter into the
middle of the grove. I am an old lady. They will not be angry with me."
Prabhupada says there is nothing that a young person can’t say or an old person can’t do.
So she says she’ll be careful with the situation seeing what it is then she’ll appropriately
behave.
Then Yadava dasa said, "The custom is that women may not go there. It is better that
you merely wait nearby and accompany us when we return."
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At nine in the morning the three of them crossed the Ganga and approached
Pradyumna-kunja. At the entrance to the forest grove Damayanti offered dandavat
obeisances and sat down under an old banyan tree. Yadava dasa and Candi dasa entered the
forest grove and devotedly offered dandavat obeisances to the Vaisnavas sitting in the place
of madhavi and malati vines.
The paramahamsa babaji was sitting there. On his four sides were Sri Vaisnava dasa,
Lahiri Mahasaya, Ananta dasa Babaji and many others. Yadava dasa approached and sat
down. Candi dasa sat beside him.
Saintly Ananta dasa Babaji asked, "Who is the new man?" Yadava dasa repeated all of
Candi dasa's story. Ananta dasa babaji smiled and said, "Yes. That is what is called 'the
material world.' He who knows the true nature of this world is wise. He who is trapped in
the cycle of birth and death in this world is truly an object of pity."
So Candi dasa asked Yadava dasa what is the material world, and Ananta dasa after
hearing Candi dasa’s history said, yes, that’s the material world. So then one who learns
from that he is wise, and one who doesn’t then he is an object of pity.
Candi dasa's heart gradually become purified. One who performs eternal pious deeds
attains auspiciousness. Honoring the Vaisnavas and reading and hearing the Vaisnava
scriptures were the beginning of Candi dasa's eternal pious deeds. By performing these pious
deeds again and again he became pure in heart and attained sincere faith in pure devotional
service. When he heard Ananta dasa's words, Candi dasa, his heart now beginning to melt,
said, "Today I make this request: Please be merciful and tell me clearly: What is the material
world?"
So by hearing and chaning in the association of devotees then one actually that’s the
real beginning of all auspiciousness. Sadhu-sanga is the actual essential thing. We’ll see here
again and again it will be brought out, especially the earlier chapters it’s constantly brought
out that it’s the associtation of devotees, because from there everything else happens.
Because of the association we are chanting, because of that we hear about Krsna, because of
that we learn their mood of inspiration to worship the Lord. So everything comes from the
association of devotees. So that’s an eternal principle because we’ll always be associated with
devotees. There is never a time when we won’t be with devotees. Because then it would have
to be just Krsna and yourself, and I am not sure where you’d sit because everything is a
devotee, the lands are devotee, everything is devotee. So it’s a problem. So we kind of got to
get used to the idea, we have to like being with devotees.
Sri Ananta dasa: Candi dasa, your question is very serious. I wish that either the
paramahamsa babaji or Sri Vaisnava dasa Babaji would give the answer.
The Paramahamsa Babaji: This is a serious question. Sri Ananta dasa Babaji is qualified
to give the answer. Today we will all listen to the instruction he gives.
So they all refer back to him because he is the guru, at the same time then he’ll refer it
back to them because they are trained by him and they are very qualified. Why is that
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strange? Means the disciple in front of the guru doesn’t try to show off his scholarship. So
he’ll say this is serious you should ask my guru. But the guru says, no, you can answer this,
this is good, because they know, because they are trained so they know.
He says we will all listen. Just like we see the Manu-samhita it is actually spoken by
Bhrgu Muni but he learned this from Brahma. So the sages approach Brahma to hear about
Vedic knowledge, they wanted to hear just this, actually Jaiva-dharma is what they wanted
to hear. They wanted to hear about the definition of varnasrama in connection with Visnu,
so daivi-varnasrama, that’s what they wanted to hear about. Varnasrama they knew, but
they wanted to understand daivi-varnasrama. So they went to Brahma. So Brahma
explained about the primary creation, secondary creation, his position and all the things like
that. Then once he had done all that that brought it up to the present, then he says I have
instructed this science, this dharma-sastra that Visnu personally taught me, I personally
taught it to my ten sons. And since it’s sages then naturally then Bhrgu who of the
brahmanas is considered the top.
Because it’s like of all brahmanas you have a hierarchy but those in the Bhrgu-vamsa are
considered the topmost. Their rituals are slightly different, there is more consideration for
them. Brhaspati is the guru of the demigods but still that Bhrgu line is considered special. So
he said now Bhrgu will speak. And then from there from the second half of the First
Chapter all the way to the end of the Twelth Chapter completing the book then Bhrgu is
speaking. And this is happening in that assembly where Lord Brahma is sitting.
So the point is the knowledge about Krsna is so wonderful that even though you have
taught it to the student, hearing it from the student is still fine. Like we see in Vrndavana
when Prabhupada was in Vrndavana he would sit on his vyasasana for the class and have
the senior devotees give class and he would sit there and listen. Because Krsna-katha is
always nice no matter where it’s coming from.
Ananta dasa: I must obey your order. I will speak as far as I have understanding.
So that’s the point how much I understand I’ll speak that much. If I don’t know then I’ll
stop. So one makes the endeavor to be able to answer all questions but one answer according
to one’s understanding, one’s realization.
I will begin by remembering the lotus feet of my spiritual master, Srila Pradyumna
Brahmacari, who is an exalted personal associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The individual spirit soul has two states of existence: 1. the liberated state, and 2. the
state of bondage in the prison of the material world. An individual soul who is a pure
devotee of Lord Krsna is not bound by the illusory potency maya. By Lord Krsna's mercy
such a soul is liberated from the material world of maya. He is a liberated soul. His state of
existence is the liberated state. On the other hand, a soul who tries to avoid Lord Krsna falls
into the gaping mouth of the illusory potency maya. Such a soul is imprisoned in the
material world. His state of existence is residence in the material world.
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So here is the key here, one who tries to avoid Lord Krsna falls down. This is how you
get into the material world by avoiding Krsna. This is explained by Bhaktisiddhanta
Sarasvati Thakura in Brahmana & Vaisnava, it says somewhere around page 95 somewhere
there, then the living entity as we were discussing that the spiritual energy they are
interested, they are in the pure state. Remember, pure means not materially entangled. In
this case pure doesn’t mean devotional. Being pure and being devotional are two different
things. Being devotional is the highest state of purity but because they are two different
things, means devotion generates purity, but purity doesn’t generate devotion. So therefore
that’s why someone who is impure can still be devotional. But, of course, the moralists can
never understand this. The moralists have no entrance into this, even though they are very
intelligent, qualified, maybe even very pure themselves, notice I used the term maybe. But
they don’t have the intelligence because it will not be revealed to them. Because devotional
service is learned through the association of the devotees through devotion, not any other
way. No material qualification will make one devotional. It’s only by the association of
devotees.
So here is that therefore the soul is in a pure state and in that pure state they are
functioning in God’s realm, but they don’t care about God, only the realm. So the problem is
the spiritual energy, the internal potency being conscious will not appreciate that. So
therefore she manifests to such living entities in her state where she is not conscious. Means
she is conscious in controlling, but the particular dead matter doesn’t feel bad. Whether you
put this rock in Krsna’s garden or in your own pleasure garden the rock couldn’t care less.
But in the spiritual world the rock cares. So therefore the svarupa-sakti instead of
manifesting as the internal potency manifests as the external potency.
Devotee (2): What is the definition of purity?
Maharaja: Purity in this case means there is no material engagement, one has no material
desire or need. But the point is technically speaking material desire means engaging in
Krsna’s energy separate from Him. So you start from the neutral state, but because of your
dealing with Krsna’s energy without consideration of Krsna therefore that consciousness
becomes material. Because neutral means it’s not a permanent state. It has to be one or the
other. In other words, the jiva being so small has to take shelter of greater potencies. So it
has to take shelter either of internal or external, it can’t remain on its own, that’s the
nature. A question came up the other day this whole thing that the jiva, Prabhupada gives
the explanation, because of free will then that gives more pleasure to Krsna. So then the
question comes up in the overly active mind that, well, in that case then the internal
potency because it’s higher than the jiva but the internal potency naturally loves Krsna, so
therefore because they are not making that choice wouldn’t that mean that their love for
Krsna is less than the jivas? But the point is it’s not that. The internal potency naturally
loves Krsna, that’s their position. The point is what is the nature of that love. It’s the quality
of the love that’s important.
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So as we see Rupa Goswami described pure devotional service means that that
favorableness to the other person is devoid of karma and jnana. So the internal potency’s
service to Krsna though it’s their inherent nature is free from karma and jnana. Therefore
its pure devotional service is very dear to Krsna. So now that’s already it’s perfect. But to
add to that perfection, to give some little extra flavor then you have the jivas who they can
voluntarily serve Krsna in that same consciousness that the internal potency is or work for
profit and loss or business arrangement with God. So the internal potency is always there.
So they have to put themselves under something. The point we always have to
remember here we are dealing with consciousness, so it’s consciousness that makes the place.
Means it’s spiritual or material by consciousness, not actually where you are situated.
Because situation, the svarupa-sakti is situation, in other words, yoga-maya, means the
situation is the sat principle, eternality principle, so Krsna is the Lord of that, that’s also the
masculine principle. Hladini or happiness is not a situation. Performing an activity is not a
situation. The activity is performed in a situation, result is gained in a situation because of
the activity. The situation is what is the existence, what is there, what’s going on, what are
the relationships, what are the interactions, what is the possibilities, the options, that
inspiration. This is all relationship. So that’s what yoga-maya deals with.
So that situation that we would call the spiritual world or that situation we call the
material world is controlled by her. She is the situation. She is Krsna’s potency that is
situation, the sat potency. So just as Srimati Radharani is the internal potency, means she is
the svarupa-sakti but she is taking the position of hladini to interact with Krsna who is in
the position of sambandha, in other words, prayojana sambandha, the masculine feminine
principle interact by pastimes, abhidheya. So then yoga-maya to create the environment in
which Radha and Krsna can interact then she creates the whole cosmic manifestation.
So now the jiva depending on their consciousness will be situation in one or the other
because it’s the same person. Consciousness is interested in Krsna then it is the spiritual
world. Consciousness is not interested in Krsna it’s the material world.
Devotee (3): That’s why it’s said, Maharaja, that things may not be as they are but as we see
them.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s not as they are but as we see them, though at the same time they are what
they are.
Devotee (3): May not be as we see.
Maharaja: So you have simultaneously the actual situation and how it’s perceived. So you get
also the same problem, your conservatives will go by it’s the situation and everything is
controlled by that. Perception doesn’t matter. The liberalists will be, perception is
everything, the situation is not actually important. But as we can actually see you need both.
To take one or the other would be only taking half.
The situation is real, it’s there, and then you have to bring your perception in line with
that. So they have to be connected. So the situation is there, it’s the manifestation of the
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spiritual world, your perception is not spiritual, therefore then the situation will change and
now it actually is material. You are in the material world, your perception is spiritual,
therefore yoga-maya changes and you are situated in the spiritual world, so very subtle
points.
Devotee (1): If yoga-maya is creating the situation, on the other hand there is the mood or
the perception is that the hladini-sakti…?
Maharaja: The mood, oh ok, is the mood hladini-sakti. That’s if it’s devotional, because
otherwise then that hladini transforms into lust. So it’s that the love transforms into lust. So
it’s the same position. Then you are dealing with instead of these different potencies
manifesting, in other words, it’s svarupa-sakti but she manifests as sandhini, samvit, and
hladini, and then different personalities take different aspects for the pastimes. But then in
the material world then it’s simple though there is the overall. Here then the svarupa-sakti
is manifest as maha-maya. So she is tri-guna-mayi. So she is in charge of the perverted
samvit, perverted sandhini, perverted hladini, as goodness, passion, and ignorance.
So then the problem is because the identity, the sambandha has been transformed from I
am servant of Krsna to I am the controller and enjoyer, it’s based on that ignorance, so
that’s your relationship, your sambandha. So that means your abhidheya and prayojana are
also going to be based on ignorance. That’s why if you change your relationship, the
sambandha, that I am servant of Krsna, then your prayojana and abhidheya change. So
that’s why even if the externals still look the same as the mundane if you have actually
changed the consciousness you are actually working with spiritual energy, not material
energy. That’s why Vaisnavism is so hard to understand.
Devotee (4): You are using yoga-maya in the material world in the same term here.
Maharaja: It’s the same person. It’s just a matter of how they manifest. It’s just like this you
go to the state prison and the prison has a warden. Now let us say you are an old school
friend of the warden and you happened to be in town, so you go and visit him because that’s
the only time you can go to see him and he is there. How is he going to manifest to you? As a
friend. But at the same time he’ll have to excuse himself occasionally to take phone calls or
see people that he deals with people in the prison as the warden. It’s the same person. It’s
just two different moods. It’s two different moods.
That’s why when you deal with the material energy in connection with Krsna she goes
to Krsna and tells that this devotee is very nice. So it’s on her recommendation that Krsna is
pleased. It’s the same person. But as we see as with Krsna the different moods manifest the
different form in different situation though technically it’s the same. Visnu and Krsna are
the same, but when He is in the mood of He is the son of mother Yasoda it’s the
manifestation of Vraja, when it’s I am God then it’s in Vaikuntha, when I am the creator,
maintainer, and destroyer, then it’s the purusavataras.
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Therefore you will say yoga-maya maha-maya are two different people but at the same
time they are one person. It’s just the same person in two different manifestations. But the
person is yoga-maya. Just like Visnu is Krsna. It’s not Krsna is Visnu.
Devotee (4): Yoga-maya is eternal, not maha-maya.
Maharaja: But at the same time that office she does it in the capacity as maha-maya. Because
we see actually because yoga-maya is connected to Sandipani Muni that’s her husband. At
the same time we get the inference that He is Lord Siva. Because in the, I think it’s in the,
what do you call it, Vidagdha-madhava, is that the first one? In there it talks about her and
Siva and this and that, but it’s very subtle. Because the point is that’s not the prominent
element, she is just the senior brahmana lady there in Vrndavana who makes all these
arrangements.
Devotee (5): It’s also Subhadra as well.
Maharaja: Yes, so it manifests in Dvaraka, and then as Parvati with Sadasiva, and then as
also Parvati with the demigod expansion as Sambhu. So it’s the same kind of whole
expansion. It’s the same potency but just different manifestations.
Devotee (1): Maharaja, you mentioned that svarupa-sakti will divide into the three energies
and each one has a presiding person like Radharani is hladini. Balarama is the samvit?
Maharaja: Balarama is basically samvit.
Devotee (1): And then is Krsna the sandhini?
Maharaja: Yes, Krsna is sandhini.
Devotee (1): But it would seem like Krsna and His energies in one sense are separate and so
it’s going from Krsna to Radharani back to Krsna because she is the svarupa-sakti. So how
does she expand herself as a svarupa-sakti into Krsna as the cit or as the sat?
Maharaja: Means Balarama has His wives, He has His potencies.
Devotee (1): I am just confused, as the sac-cid-ananda it seems the sat…
Maharaja: But see the problem is the sac-cid-ananda that is the in operation those are
primary factors and so sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana becomes the thing. But one
has to understand it’s originally one potency. There is the Supreme Personality of Godhead
and His potency, and they are non-different. But for the manifestation and interaction and
pastimes then you have sandhini, hladini, and samvit. And that then reflects in the material
world as goodness, passion, and ignorance. It works on the same principles. Because the
reflection works like what’s in the mirror, it’s just backwards. You scratch your head, here
you are scratching the right side, in the mirror you are scratching the left side. But it’s still
the same, it works the same, but it’s backwards.
In other words, it’s the same dealing but it’s for yourself instead of Krsna. Mother Yasoda
deals with Krsna, she feeds Him, bathes Him, clothes Him, sees to that He is behaving
properly, and trains Him that He’ll grow up nice and be a nice boy. So a mother in this
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material world does exactly the same thing. Same mentality, same words, same everything.
But there she is doing it for Krsna’s pleasure and benefit, here the mother is doing it for her
own needs. Krsna is not involved. That’s the perversion. That’s why when we say perversion
doesn’t mean initially that it looks different. When it looks different that’s perversion of the
perversion.
In other words, the Vedic culture being performed properly according to guru, sadhu,
and sastra but simply for mundane purposes, that’s the perverted reflection. So the perfect
Vedic society is the perverted reflection. This nonsense that it’s India or this or that this is
for academics who basically haven’t figured out which side of the neck to put the bolts on, so
they have their head on backwards. So this is a problem. This is the natural position in the
material world.
Then you can leave the Vedic culture and that’s then perverting that perversion. So
now instead of it having the form is correct but the mood is wrong, now the form is also
wrong, and then they wonder why they are getting no material benefit. Because God created
the world therefore if you follow God’s direction, sastra, He is ritual. Now you understand
it’s Him you get devotional benefit. You don’t understand it’s Him you’ll get material
benefit. So you follow the ritual you are approaching Him, therefore it’s called pious, you get
material good benefit. You don’t approach the ritual and you try to make up your own way
to operate the material world that’s called sinful.
You walk into a bank, present your passbook, and ask for money that you have in the
account. You get your money, you walk out and everybody says you are a nice guy. In fact,
the bank might even give you considerations and you might be on their most preferred list.
But if you come into the bank without your passbook and demand the money that you don’t
have and then walk out you are a criminal. The same process, you want to the teller and
withdrew money. Just that instead of being a little flatbook with your picture on it, it
happened to be a gun. Practical passbook, hey. You don’t even have to wait in line. It’s like
you immediately go to the front of the line. Everyone else moves out of the way, in fact, they
even bow down. It’s like very respected. But you are a criminal. That’s the whole point.
That’s the part that is so illusory when it comes to activities. That’s why we are going
through basically ten chapters to get us used to this concept that if it’s connected to Krsna
it’s useful, it’s not connected to Krsna it’s useless. That’s all. That’s what these first basically
ten chapters are trying to establish. But, ok, that’s ok here but what about, but no. But then
household life, no. Householder life, caste, occupation, it goes through everything. It leaves
nothing that we haven’t dealt with, so that we can’t say, but there is something separate
from Krsna. No, there is nothing.
So the point is ritual is Krsna. It doesn’t matter what it is. You want to cut your potato
with the knife, the reason that the potato cuts the knife is because that ritual has been
established by Krsna.
Devotee (1): The knife cuts the potato.
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Maharaja: I said the potato cuts the knife? So the knife cuts the potato. Well, you could say
the cause of the knife’s performance of duties is the potato. If there were no potatoes who’d
made knives? Of course, if there were no potatoes there would be no Irishmen either and
then we wouldn’t have a chairman. So you can’t underestimate the potency of a potato.
So the knife cuts the potato because of this is Krsna’s arrangement, so it’s God’s law. You
follow the law it works. You don’t follow the law you get a bad reaction. You hold the knife
wrong, you do things, then you get cut or the potato doesn’t get cut. You get a bad result. So
if people are getting bad result by operating material existence then they have to know they
are acting in an impious way. Otherwise why are they getting a bad result? That would be
intelligent.
Devotee (3): That means the willingness depends on knowledge.
Maharaja: Yes, willingness depends on knowledge. But the knowledge is so simple, it just has
to be connected to Krsna, anybody can do it. At the same time, it’s so sophisticated that it
can get very, very developed in its presentation.
So that connection is just simply what is being trying to get across here. Because we
have this idea that there is God and then there is religious ritual, then there is everything
else. No, everything that goes on. It’s there. A bicycle works by God’s laws. You can’t do
something against God’s laws and it works. So a bicycle works because it’s God’s law. So you
ride the bicycle according to how it should be ridden you get the good result. You don’t you
run into a tree. So these things are there. That consideration is there. So God’s laws go
down into everything. The guy wants to smoke a cigarette, you have to know which end of
the cigarette to smoke. You have to know how to light it. You light it in the middle it’s not
going to work very good. You don’t light it all it’s not going to work very good. So even
something like that. How you light the match to light your cigarette still it’s God’s law.
Something that has flame, fire as its predominant element if you connect it with other fire,
because fire comes from fire, therefore the friction creates the heat that then lights, so it’s
God’s law.
Devotee (3): This knowledge establishes the universal religion.
Maharaja: Yes, this knowledge establishes. That’s why there is only one religion. So you can
say it’s part of. So even a quantumist that religion that they follow of just the atoms and all
this kind of like very simplified version of Vaisesika then it’s still part of the Vaisnava
religion. But they are only recognizing part. So that part they recognize that’s where truth
lies. That part where they don’t recognize that’s where it doesn’t work for them.
So everything is like that, it doesn’t matter what it is. You want to scratch the top of
your head, still there is a way to do it. You have to get your fingers on top of your head. I
mean you could go over to the wall and rub it on the wall. I mean like that cows do it. I
mean it does work but still your head has to come in something that it can be, and by
friction then you scratch it. But it’s still God’s law.
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So that’s the thing without that understanding, so this is real religion, anything less
than this actually you are deifying God, it’s actually atheistic because you don’t believe God
is in everything. That’s why it’s a problem. That’s why we were saying before why is Rupa
Goswami say the religionists and the moralists cannot understand devotional service.
Because devotional service is Krsna, and they are separating religion and morality from
Krsna, or also the impersonalists, any of them, the sense gratifier. All these things are part
of Krsna. But they see it separate from Krsna. So even they are perfect it they can’t
understand it.
Because the point is morality works or it doesn’t work because of its connection to
Krsna. So the point is why something is good or not good is it connection to Krsna. Of
course, the farther away we move from devotion the more indirect it becomes. So the sense
gratifier, it becomes more indirect, it’s more complex in one sense. But it’s less and less
potency. But it’s still Krsna.
Let’s say you have a gang. That gang is successful, why? Because it works on God’s
eternal principles. One, it’s in association. So people are only happy in an association. Two,
there is a leader. Three, they follow that leader. Four, they are loyal to that leader and that
group. Five, they have rituals and they follow them. They have a language, they have a dress
code, they have their own etiquettes, they have initiation.
Devotee (6): The Hell’s Angels or something…
Devotee (4): Or like a Church, it could be a Church group or…
Maharaja: Anything, I mentioned here, even I am just talking about a crack-selling street
gang, what is it, ’79, whatever it is. You got all these little groups in New York. It doesn’t
matter. The bloods and the cribs. It doesn’t matter.
But they are a gang because of this, and that’s why you can identify as a gang and it
functions as a gang because it’s following eternal principles. What they are using that for
may be not nice but the point is the only reason that it even functions. A country functions,
America functions, these First World countries function, why? Because they follow eternal
principles. They have their leader, they follow. They have a mechanics in there. They care
about their people. So all these things. So there is more protection of the people. That would
be the difference between the First World, Second World, Thrid World, Tenth World,
whatever it is. Now that’s the point, why do we call something a banana republic? Because
they sell bananas to America? The chiquita or something like that. So they are good
businessmen. No, it’s because the government doesn’t protect the people. It doesn’t work by
that satisfaction and everything like that. That’s why it’s a banana republic. Otherwise they
have people, they have a government, they have someone in charge, but it doesn’t work
quite well because of this. So something works or it doesn’t work because it’s according to
God’s laws. That’s the whole thing.
So even let’s say the lawyers in court and he is presenting nicely. He is presenting
according to the books. So then you could say it’s working there because he is following the
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authority of the system. He is quoting the precedence, he is following the etiquettes, he is
standing up, your honor, this that bla. He is using good logic, he is good presentation. So it
works. But now a lawyer could also be completely dishonest and still be successful. He could
be misquoting things, misapplying things, but he is still following the rule of good logic. His
presentation was good even though what he presented may be completely bogus, but his
presentation is good. So following that he is good.
In other words, a lawyer who knows everything very nicely, knows all the books, knows
all the histories, and knows all the procedures is going to be good. Now someone who is
excellent means that their presentation and their presence in the court is greater. So now
that may be based on that or not because the personal element is going to come there. The
skill is there, but then there is that personal interaction or connection. Because everything
ultimately is personal.
So there is nothing that you can’t take back to God’s ritual. Because Krsna says I am the
ritual. It’s just a matter of how direct or indirect. So we as devotees prefer the direct.
Chanting Hare Krsna, worshiping the deity, associating with devotees, living in the dhama,
worshiping tulasi, taking prasada, kirtana, like this. So those are our main focus on the
direct manifestations of Krsna’s ritual. Then after that then is the elements of Pancaratra
which are all connected to Him but there is that ritualistic aspect. Then in areas where the
mind still is distracted from Krsna then daivi-varnasrama. Now by this time you should have
taken care of everything. Because daivi-varnasrama includes dharma, artha, kama, and
moksa.
But even if one still hasn’t understood that and one is acting outside of varnasrama, in
other words, in the tribal aspect. Remember, the general term in history when they talk
about different groups in European history are tribes, and most prominent is the Germanic
tribe. Somehow or another they took over everywhere. So therefore tribal is fitting though
the Germanic tribals like to say that if you are three foot tall with a bone in your nose in
Africa or Papua New Guinea then you are a tribal. I guess also in Brasil, you could be out in
the Amazon. But they themselves are also tribals. Because tribal basically means you don’t
follow, the Vedic law is not your prominent element. So even the Vedic tribals they were
outside of varnasrama but a lot of varnasrama they would follow just by association, and
therefore they were so successful. They were very powerful and very wealthy. They live
nicely in their forest. They were comfortable. But the modern tribals in their cement jungles
aren’t doing as well.
Devotee (3): That’s why the banana republic and the computer republic are the same.
Maharaja: Yes, just one, yes, one is a little more moushy and one is a little bit not.
Devotee (3): In these topics obviously this is for Vaisnavas, right?
Maharaja: This topic is for Vaisnavas. No, but you can explain these to who is not Vaisnava,
it’s easy to them.
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Devotee (3): But one element the devotee knows that he possesses due to these references
philosophical understanding he possesses his own understanding, let’s say his will to actually
surrender your heart. The karmis are motivated mostly.
Maharaja: They are motivated.
Devotee (3): …some profit, some identity, one removes that they…
Maharaja: But you don’t have to remove their, that. Means the false identity is what you are
removing. But their motive you engage it. That’s why he says conscious, God conscious,
favorably God conscious, then free from karma and jnana. Free from karma and jnana is the
last thing mentioned. Because you can be favorably God conscious. Kubja was favorably God
conscious, she wanted to please Krsna, but she also wanted to please herself. So there is a
mix there. So you catch them wherever they are and engage that.
Because it doesn’t matter, we can speak this to anyone. Here because we are devotees we
are talking on the Bhagavan level, but we can talk on Paramatma level if they are into yoga,
we can talk on the Brahman level. All you have to do is talk about the Supreme, the superior
force, anything, it’s the same philosophy, you just change the nomenclature. Because
Brahman is Krsna, it works the same. The Brahman functioning works the same as the
Paramatma, as the Bhagavan, it’s the same, because it’s the same person. Just what you can
get from the Brahman understanding is not as great as Paramatma, is not as great as
Bhagavan.
Devotee (3): Even from one devotee which level he can talk even from the material level.
Maharaja: You can take anything. The point is because everything connects to Krsna you
can take anything. You could pick up your Sony ipod manual and go through it and explain
Krsna consciousness if you understand how it’s working, why it’s working, you’d be able to
give Krsna consciousness by reading that, you give a class on it.
Devotee (3): There is…Vaisnavism as the universal religion.
Maharaja: Yes, Vaisnavism is universal. Because everything is included in it. But that’s why
the Vaisnavas they are broad-minded, they are not dogmatic in ritual. So somebody, yes, we
are not dogmatic, we are liberal. No, a liberal is also dogmatic. Because it’s unassailable that
you have to be liberal. Why do you have to be liberal? What is the evidence that you have to
be liberal? Based on what? Whose authority? Oh, you can’t discuss that. That’s dogma.
Dogma means that which you don’t discuss. So therefore liberals are just as dogmatic as
conservatives. That’s all. They are all dogmatic, they are all, means just leave off, dogmatic I
am taking that something to do with Astrius or something, but otherwise then the same
position. They are dogs. It’s just a matter of whether they are pleasant dogs or very stiff and
formal dogs. That’s all. Is it a bulldog or is it a Afghan or something? I think cordies (?) are
quite pleasant to be around. But like let’s say a pitbull, you have to be a little more careful.
(end of lecture) (end)
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April 19, 2010
Maharaja: Ok, so the question is what is the material world, and Ananta dasa then he is
speaking on the order of the Paramahamsa Babaji.
The individual spirit soul has two states of existence: 1. the liberated state, and 2. the
state of bondage in the prison of the material world. An individual soul who is a pure
devotee of Lord Krsna is not bound by the illusory potency maya. By Lord Krsna's mercy
such a soul is liberated from the material world of maya. He is a liberated soul. His state of
existence is the liberated state. On the other hand, a soul who tries to avoid Lord Krsna falls
into the gaping mouth of the illusory potency maya. Such a soul is imprisoned in the
material world. His state of existence is residence in the material world.
So notice he is making different points, otherwise why say the same thing again and
again? I mean, of course, repetition is important. But we see here there is something more
than. Because we have to understand material existence is not specifically just one is in the
material world. The material existence is a state of mind. In other words, one is absorbed in
material consciousness, means he is not absorbed in Krsna. One who tries to avoid Lord
Krsna falls into the gaping mouth of the illusory potency. So he is talking about the potency.
Then he says Such a soul is imprisoned in the material world. So the consciousness, material
consciousness, and living in the material world are two different things. Those in illusion
their place of residence is the material world. Those who are not in illusion their place of
residence is in the spiritual world.
But it has to be two different things, otherwise how does someone from the spiritual
world come and reside in the material world? So someone in spiritual consciousness who is
not affected by the illusory potency can come and live in the material world, that’s what the
acaryas and other great personalities are doing. So the two go together, but it’s not that
that’s what makes them.
A criminal lives in prison. But it’s not the prison made the criminal. And there are
people living in the prison who aren’t criminals. The warden and all the guards and
everything like that, they are not criminals. So it’s two different things.
So we see here because of avoiding Krsna one then is in the material state. So it’s a
matter of the state of their existence, their mind. Then residence is then appropriately
given.
Devotee (1): So is it also the matter of place or only matter of consciousness?
Maharaja: Is it a matter of place or is it only a matter of consciousness? It is only a matter of
consciousness, but depending upon your consciousness there is a suitable place for that
consciousness to be experienced.
Devotee (1): So it’s also a matter of place. Somehow getting place.
Maharaja: Of course, it’s a matter of place, but what is the most important thing?
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Devotee (1): Consciousness.
Maharaja: Consciousness. So you always, because anything has to have a place. You want to
do something you need a place. You want to worship the Lord there are places considered.
Because it’s worship of the Lord then which place do you pick? Behind the goshalla over
there there is this big huge hall it’s full of garbage, now is that a good place for doing your
worship? Yes or no?
Devotee (1): No.
Maharaja: So, therefore place is considered in that it helps in the performance of the
activity, in the experience of the activity. So you always have the intention or the
consciousness, one’s purpose, all those different things, and the situation or the mechanics
of action. So there is always a field of action and then there is how you deal with that,
what’s your consciousness, why you are dealing with it. So the two go together.
So always we see the sastra what is bringing out is that one should see this difference,
and therefore then one will choose situations according to Krsna conscious or be Krsna
conscious in any situation. Otherwise then we think, oh, just because I am in the temple I
am Krsna conscious. That you went to the temple it was inspired by Krsna consciousness but
are you conscious while you are in the temple? So it’s not that because the form is there then
automatically everything else is done. Or because one’s in the material world there can’t be
spiritual. Because otherwise with that then you have the problem of not understanding it’s
Krsna’s energy and therefore you can’t see Krsna in the manifestation. So we always have to
be able to see the two.
A soul liberated from maya is always conscious of his original spiritual identity. His
whole life is service to Lord Krsna. Such a soul does not reside in the material world. He
resides in one of the pure spiritual worlds. Goloka, Vaikuntha and Vrndavana are the names
of some of these pure spiritual worlds. The souls free from maya are limitless in number.
They cannot be counted.
Notice here he said Goloka, Vaikuntha and Vrndavana. So that means, one, there would
be different moods. Vaikuntha is there, so that’s all those different planets. They have
details within it. Goloka then is its own planet, but within that it’s detail. So then you also
have the thing of Goloka and Vrndavana, you can say there is difference, but at the same
time you say they are the same, because Vrndavana is in Goloka. But at the same time you
can have moods of Goloka that are different from Vrndavana.
So even when people get all fajated (?) about discussing that you can’t fall from Goloka
and this and that, whether they are actually even distinguishing within the different realms
and all the different things. So the whole idea is discrimination, using one’s intelligence,
learning discrimination. So you can see the difference between something. Then you can
identify its quality. Is the quality good? Is the quality not good?
The souls bound in maya's prison are also limitless in number. They cannot be counted
either. A soul averse to Lord Krsna, is bound by Lord Krsna's shadow-potency maya, who
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binds that soul with ropes of goodness, passion and ignorance. Because of the difference of
these three ropes, the imprisoned souls are placed in many different states of existence. The
variety of those states is astonishing. Those who think for a moment will see this astonishing
variety. These souls manifest an astonishing variety of material bodies, an astonishing
variety of states of existence, an astonishing variety of forms, an astonishing variety of
natures, an astonishing variety of residences, and an astonishing variety of movements.
Astonishing because it’s actually amazing, I mean just the generic of the aspect of life.
But if you look at it just how it works. Like Prabhupada says trees they eat through their
feet. Or let’s say you have a sloth they hang upside down in a tree and walk along like that.
All very strange things. Some are mobile in the day, some at night. Some live in the sky.
Like the Cheyenne (?) eagles they live in space. So they fly from one planet to the other. So
they don’t have a nest. They are flying. So they lay their eggs in space and the eggs also fly
along with them. So by the time they get to their donation the egg hatches and then like
that they all fly off to somewhere else. So they just live in space. Some live in the water.
Some live in the earth. Any combination. So the variety is amazing or astonishing, just on
how Krsna can make it all.
When he first enters the material world, the soul is covered by a new sense of identity.
In his pure state of existence
Now here there is also another thing here, catch this. Did you catch the wording? He is
covered by a new state of existence, means that’s not his. His existence is he is free from the
material sphere. But now he is covered by a new sense of identity. That means there was
another identity before. So this personal element is always there, so that one is manifest
here doesn’t work. That’s for those who can’t accommodate Krsna’s energy and their variety.
A deist can’t accommodate that the Lord and His potencies are all-pervading and therefore
the Lord is actually involved and connected to everything that’s going on. But because the
people identify so much with the mundane and therefore what’s good and bad of the
mundane, something that’s not good then they’ll say it can’t be connected to God. But in its
state is not necessarily good or bad.
The man to walk across the street, steps of the curb, gets run over by a truck. We’ll say
this is very bad this and that. But someone else might say it’s good. The person was a very,
he disturbed everybody, a nuisance to everybody, creating so much problem for everybody,
like this, and so he gets hit by a truck. Everybody will think, wow, ok, not bad. But then if
it’s someone who you are attached to, you have a relationship with, then that’s considered
bad. So actually is the person being hit by a truck good or bad? It’s depending upon your
perspective. Is this rock good or bad? Is it inherently a good rock or a bad rock? Did he do his
homework? Did he help any old ladies across the street? Is he truthful, clean, what is it?
Curdios (?), kind, truthful, brave, clean, and reverent? No, it’s a rock. So depending upon
you you’ll consider good or not. You are looking for a particular kind of rock. This is not it,
it’s not good. You are looking for a certain shape, if this is not it, it’s not good. If it is, it is
good.
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Devotee (2): Can one say in this regard that actually proper perspective is to see everything
as good because everything is arranged by Krsna?
Maharaja: To see everything as good to see it’s arranged by Krsna. In general that would be a
good statement, but only because it’s connected to Krsna. But within connected to Krsna
then you have to see what’s good or not based on what’s favorable to Krsna.
In other words, good and bad are in connection to Krsna. Otherwise if good and bad is
not we’ll make up our own concept of good and bad. We’ll say, oh, this is good, that’s not
good, based on our own idea what’s good for me that’s good, and what’s not good for me is
not good. But actually it’s what’s connected to Krsna, what’s favorable to Krsna that’s good.
And what’s not is not good.
What’s better? A million dollars not used for Krsna or a hundred dollars used for Krsna?
Ok, but better would be a hundred Euros, right? So like that, that’s the whole point, what is
good and what’s not good. The person is rich, is that good? The person is poor, is that good?
Maybe by being rich he develops all bad qualities. Maybe by being rich he does so much good
work. He preaches, he helps different programs, he does so many things, serves the devotees.
It may be by being poor it’s good because then he is humble, he thinks of Krsna, depends
upon Krsna. So the whole thing of good and bad, all there is is various situations. Now they
are connected to Krsna that’s good, they are not connected to Krsna they are not good.
Just like within what’s connected to Krsna there is more favorable, less favorable, so
within not connected to Krsna there is more favorable and less favorable. But it’s also
dependent upon Krsna. Because in the material world what we call is better is piety, which
is what’s recommended in sastra, which are the rituals and everything given by Krsna,
because that ritual is Krsna. And that which ignores authority and good qualities then that’s
considered worse. So even the mundane is still in connection with Krsna. Its consideration
is that. But the connection to Krsna is what’s not seen. Therefore one thinks that there is
such a thing as good and bad and then there is Krsna consciousness. When actually good
and bad is just another form of Krsna consciousness.
Devotee (1): …
Maharaja: Yes, otherwise you come out with the mundane morality. Because real morality
means what’s connected to Krsna, what’s pleasing to Krsna. Because mundane morality
somebody made it up. What’s good, what’s not good? How do you decide? How do people
dress when they go out on the street? Let’s say at the time of the ancient Greeks the women
dressed fully, but the men if they walked around naked nobody cared. Now it’s the men have
to be dressed fully and the women can walk around naked and nobody cares. So who is
defining this? The local culture is defining it. So that’s what we are reading.
When he first enters the material world,
First enters, so that means there is a time. So this element of anadi means he is eternally
here. It just means anadi it’s been so long nobody can tell. Means God knows but other than
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God then, we don’t know, we are talking about ourselves here, we are not talking about
God’s.
the soul is covered by a new sense of identity. In his pure state of existence the soul
thinks "I am a servant of Lord Krsna". However, in the state of material bondage the soul
thinks: "I am a human being". "I am a demigod." "I am an animal". "I am a king". "I am a
brahmana". "I am an outcaste". "I am suffering". "I am hungry". "I am insulted". "I am
generous". "I am a husband". "I am a wife". "I am a father". "I am a son". "I am an enemy". "I
am a friend". "I am learned". "I am handsome". "I am wealthy". "I am poor". "I am happy". "I am
sad". "I am strong". "I am weak".
So I guess maybe these are all the different things that one thinks, quite exhaustive
here.
In this way the soul may have different conceptions of his identity. This is called "false-
ego". There is also another thing called "false possessiveness". In the grip of false-
possessiveness, the soul things: "This is my house". "This is my thing." "This is my wealth".
"This is my body". "This is my son and my daughter". "This is my wife". "This is my husband".
"This is my father". "This is my mother." "This is my caste into which I was born." "This is my
power." "This is my form." "This is my virtue." "This is my knowledge". "This is my
renunciation." "This is my wisdom." "This is my activity." "This is my good fortune." "These
are my servants and dependents." In this way the souls uses the word "my" in many different
ways. This great variety of "I" and "mine" are called the "material world".
So this I and mine. Because I is I am the controller and mine is I am the enjoyer. Because
I is what is my position, and then mine is what I can enjoy. So this is material consciousness,
I and mine.
Yadava dasa: I see how there are many "I" and "mine" in the state of material bondage.
But are there no "I" and "mine" in the liberated state?
Ananta dasa: In the liberated state the "I" and "mine" are all spiritual and free of fault. In
the liberated state there is manifested the soul's original spiritual identity, which was
originally created by Lord Krsna. Because of these different spiritual identities, in the
spiritual world there are varieties "I". Although all souls there are Lord Krsna's servants, they
have a great variety of spiritual relationships with the Lord. All the different relationships
manifest the idea of "mine".
So he is pointing out I and mine is there but it’s free from fault, there is no problem with
it. Means no problem, it’s connected to Krsna. So I means that they all see they are servant,
so what is the variety of servants. And then the relationship that they have with Krsna
that’s the mine. Because here the mine is based on relationships, so there it’s also.
Devotee (3): …also say it’s my service to.
Maharaja: Yes, my service.
Devotee (3): Not just He is my baby. He is also my service.
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Maharaja: My service meaning to change the dipers?
Devotee (3): Kaupina.
Maharaja: Yes, means the point, yes, it applies like that. But the basic principle is I am
servant, but then what is the quality of that service. Because in other words, I is a state of
existence, mine is then based on the interaction of the relationship. So mine will be the
relationship and I is the generic, I am soul, I am servant of Krsna.
Devotee (3): So there can be an element of like possessiveness in terms of don’t get in my
service?
Maharaja: There can be a possessiveness that don’t get in my service. No it should be a
means consciousness and consideration. If it’s someone else’s service that’s what they do for
Krsna. So we shouldn’t disturb that. But the main point is we should be focusing on our
service, we should have a service, and just see that our service doesn’t disturb someone else’s
service. That way then there can be competition but still Krsna is the center, so it all works
very nicely.
Devotee (4): We see devotees fighting over service.
Maharaja: We see devotees fighting over service.
Devotee (4): what’s actually happening in their consciousness.
Maharaja: What’s happening in their consciousness.
Devotee (4): Is it good or bad?
Maharaja: Is it good or bad? It depends how you are defining good or bad.
Devotee (4): Mentality.
Maharaja: It depends, if it’s just that they are just inspired about doing that service, so then
they may try their best to get that service for Krsna. So that’s not a problem, because Krsna
is the center there. But any aspect it’s not, it’s just they want that particular service because
of the facilities or the power or influence or prestige or like this and that, then that part will
be the disturbance.
It’s just like you have the fire. The fire is not the disturbance, it’s the smoke. So a clean
fire there is no disturbance of smoke. But if it’s not then there is a lot of smoke. So that’s the
whole thing, one is absorbed in service trying to do service that’s not the difficulty. The
difficulty is is it all connected to Krsna?
Yadava dasa: If this is so, then what is the fault in the great variety of "I" and "mine"
manifest among the souls bound in the material world?
Ananta dasa: The fault is this:
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Because they are saying this is faultless. So then what exactly is the fault in the material
world of I and mine? Because in the spiritual there is I and mine but that’s faultless. So
what’s the fault of the material world?
Ananta dasa: The fault is this: In the soul's pure state the ideas of "I" and "My" are based
on reality. However, when the soul resides in the material world these ideas of "I" and "My"
are artificial impositions. They are not real. They are illusions. In the material world they
are all temporary, unnatural, and the sources of fleeting pleasures and pains.
Yadava dasa: Then is the material world an illusion?
Because that’s the Mayavadis will say it’s an illusion it doesn’t exist.
Ananta dasa: The material world is not an illusion. By Lord Krsna's will it is reality.
However, a soul who enters this world has many illusory conceptions of "I" and "mine".
Those false conceptions are illusions. The mayavadis, who are all offenders, claim that this
world is an illusion.
So in other words, the material world isn’t an illusion, but the souls that are here have
illusory concepts of the place. So that’s what the illusion is that the individual living entity
is in illusion, not that the material world is an illusion. That’s why you also have to be able
to separate maya herself as a potency exists, but she also controls the state of illusion.
Someone is in illusion then she controls them. They are not in illusion then yoga-maya
controls them.
Yadava dasa: Why do we have illusory material relationships?
Ananta dasa: The individual soul is a tiny particle of spirit. The first situation of the
soul is on the boundary line that separates the spiritual and material worlds. In that
condition the souls that do not forget their original relationship with Lord Krsna come
under the control of the spiritual potency and are drawn into the spiritual world. Becoming
eternal associates of Lord Krsna, they enjoy the bliss of serving Him directly. The souls who
are averse to Lord Krsna and who wish to enjoy the pleasures offered by maya are drawn
into the world of maya. That is why we now reside in this material world. When we enter
the material world we forget our true spiritual identity. Then we think "I am the enjoyer of
maya". Then maya encircles us with a great variety of false identities.
…is on the boundary line that separates the spiritual and material worlds. But we see he is
in existence because he is conscious. He is either attracted to Krsna or not attracted to
Krsna. So what’s important here is what’s happening, what makes the difference between
the two? Why does one go one way or the other?
Devotee (5): Desire.
Maharaja: Desire, ok.
Devotee (6): Attraction.
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Maharaja: Attraction, yes. So that would mean to be, to have desire and attraction would
have to be conscious. Because conscious is a general state, then what you are conscious of.
So you are conscious, then you are attracted and attached to things. So now that may be
spiritual or material. So in other words, existence is there, consciousness is there, and then
feelings are there, because one is a living entity. Then the details it’s material or spiritual.
So in understanding this position, this point of the border, what is the discussion about?
Just like if we are discussing temperature then what do I use to gage it? A thermometer, ok.
If I am discussing the colors on my wall, what do I use? Those pink color things. So the
whole point is now we are dealing with the border between the material and spiritual
worlds, but what is the point that makes the difference?
Devotee (5): Love for Krsna or not.
Maharaja: Yes, love for Krsna or not, so consciousness and desire. So if you are going to
understand this position you have to view it through what?
Devotee (5): Sastra.
Maharaja: Consciousness. Well, sastra, of course. But consciousness that has to be the view.
So would it be of any use to try to figure out the location of this? It’s a different perspective,
it’s dealing with something different. That’s why this question is so hard to appreciate
because here it’s just saying this, so in consciousness one is in-between the two. So now
where that locally is that doesn’t matter, because you can be sitting here and be God
conscious or in maya. You can be sitting in the temple be God conscious or in maya. You
can be sitting in Tallahassee and be God conscious or in maya. No offence to any
Tallahasseeans if you happen to be here.
Devotee (5): Like the example of the…, Krsna dasa, Lord Caitanya…
Maharaja: Yes, he is with Lord Caitanya. Prabhupada says in the purport you can be face to
face with the Supreme Lord and still be in maya.
Devotee (7): What is the difference between the perception of the Brahmavadis of illusion
and the Mayavadis?
Maharaja: The Brahmavadis, it’s an illusion to think everything is not Brahman. So in other
words, everything that you see here exists but it’s all Brahman. The Mayavadi will say, all
that you see here does not exist it’s an illusion. But they will say everything is Brahman. But
if everything is Brahman that means the illusion is Brahman. So there is problems. There is
major, major problems in the Mayavada philosophy, it just doesn’t actually make any sense.
They say you merge, like a green bird in a green tree. But there is a tree and a bird, they
are two different things. So that’s a problem… Because it’s just out of false ego they want to
be God. So then they all sit around and tell each other they look great. The guys painted
their face white, black make-up, long nails, put on fangs, and then there is a whole group of
them and they say each one looks really good. Or you got a bunch of Turkeys together, or
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vultures, not very attractive by our, but by their standards then there is really good looking
hot vultures and ones that are pretty ordinary vultures.
This whole point is it’s consciousness, so no matter where you are you can be one or the
other. So that means if you haven’t chosen that’s the border. So we say someone is liberated,
is there a location for that? Oh, you are liberated, sorry, you can’t stand here, we made a
special place for you over there. Liberated is a state of consciousness. So Durvasa Muni he
goes to Vaikuntha, sees Lord Visnu. So is he in the spiritual world? Is he residing in the
spiritual world? No, because he is still seeing with mundane vision.
So these are things to understand, there is locations and then there is consciousness.
There is ritual and then there is the mentality in which the ritual is performed. They are
two different things. Properly performed ritual, properly performed mentality, that’s your
best. That’s the one situation. Improper performed, improper mentality, that’s another clear
situation. And then you have mixes in between. Bad situation, good consciousness. Good
situation, bad consciousness. So you want to try to bring things proper. But of the two the
consciousness. So that means your different realms for performing your activities, then
there is a consciousness by which you perform them, and according to that then you belong
in a particular place or not, because it’s most suited. But not that that can’t be in another
place. They are two different things. They are connected, but they are different.
Devotee (8): Has someone with a mundane vision gone to the spiritual world?
Maharaja: We just gave an example.
Devotee (8): But how is he allowed to go?
Maharaja: How is he allowed, mean? What identity card he had, or? He came up to the guard
and distracted his attention, grabbed his hand, put it on the fingerprint recognizing thing
and when the door opened ran in. What do you mean?
Devotee (8): Shouldn’t he have spiritual vision to go to the spiritual world?
Maharaja: Spiritual vision to go to the spiritual world, but the point is what is perfection?
Devotee (8): To see everything in connection with Krsna.
Maharaja: Yes, so if that’s the point then is he in the spiritual world? Sometimes guests come
to the temple and they look at the altar and they comment on what nice flower
arrangements. They don’t see the deities.
So the idea that means there is those who are perfect are in the spiritual world, those
who are always God conscious are always in the spiritual world because they reside there.
Residence means basically permanent. Spiritual world means permanent, material world is
temporary anyway but it’s a long time. So what we are trying to point out that there is this
two. If this is not there how is it you are here? Bhaktivinoda Thakura is looking across this
side from his house, he is seeing thousands of devotees seeing and chanting the Lord’s
glories, playing on their vina, he sees this beautiful temple, Lord Caitanya is being
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worshiped and doing all these pastimes. That’s right here. What do you see when you look
around? So according to that mentality how are you here. Because there is the element of
border means you can switch from one to the other. So it’s a state of existence and
consciousness, not a location.
Right now you are in the transition between material world, material consciousness and
spiritual world, spiritual consciousness. So that means you are in the material world and
there is spiritual consciousness to some degree. At the same time you are in Mayapura which
is the spiritual world. So all these things seem contradictory because we are trying to
understand them by location. That’s why I am saying, that’s the wrong perspective, it’s
consciousness.
Devotee (8): So Durvasa goes to the location in Vaikuntha but he doesn’t have the
Vaikuntha consciousness.
Maharaja: Yes, so how long is he there?
Devotee (8): Not long.
Maharaja: Not long. So then?
Devotee (9): One of the elements of pancanga-bhakti is Mathuravasa, would mean also
consciousness or…?
Maharaja: Mathuravasa, the pancanga…, means the main thing is consciousness, but
because we are not always conscious then actually living in the place is recommended. You
are in this building, are you in the dhama?
Devotee (9): Physically, yes.
Maharaja: Physically, yes. What happens when you step outside of this building, are you still
in the dhama?
Devotee (9): Yes.
Maharaja: Ok, now let us say you are in the temple in Berlin, does that work for you or
should I say Heidelberg or? Heidelberg, ok. So you are in the temple in Heidelberg then we
have the question here of what they were talking about before, I and mine. So now in the
temple are you in the spiritual world? Yes, ok. Now whether you are conscious of it or not
you are. Now what happens when you step outside the, then where are you?
Devotee (9): In Heidelberg.
Maharaja: In Heidelberg, right. So that’s the point, so then what is in Heidelberg? Lots of
Heidelbergians. And those Heidelbergians then they have their own idea. It’s like summer is
coming and so they are all getting ready to go to Bavaria for their various programs that are
there, all kinds of stuff. So now will you forget Krsna? Or could you forget Krsna?
Devotee (9): Depends on you.
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Maharaja: Depends on you, but I am saying your external environment is not necessarily
conducive.
Devotee (9): …
Maharaja: For preaching and all that, yes, but just for developing God consciousness not
specifically. Means you can take advantage of it and use it to. But the dhama whether you
appreciate it or not it’s still the dhama. So at any point you could get that, you are walking
along see the Ganga and then remember Lord Caitanya or something might remind you.
While walking down the street in Heidelberg might not always bring out all these nice, you
see the pub and think, wow, yes, Lord Nityananda Prabhu used to go into the pubs and
preach to everybody, Jagai, and then when the guy comes out of the pub, and all like this,
yeah and Jagai and Madhai they were saved by, like this and that. Then when they make
some comment about you and say something, then you think, yes, just like Jagai and Madhai
harassing Haridasa Thakura and Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Means you could do that, but it’s
not necessarily. That’s why it’s recommended one lives in the dhama.
So one is living somewhere else simply for preaching. If somebody lives there because
they would rather be in Heidelberg than be in Vrndavana or Mayapura that’s unfortunate.
But if it’s a matter of this is where their service is then that is appreciated by the Lord.
Someone who is willing to not be in Vrndavana or Mayapura so that they can do a service of
preaching Lord Caitanya will look very kindly upon them.
Devotee (5): What is the position of the demons then coming to Vrndavana…?
Maharaja: What is the position of the demons? You want to know like GPS kind of
coordinates…Aristasura was standing at 001.3, and then moved another.
Devotee (4): Three degrees.
Maharaja: Yes, so many points of degrees and then he got killed by Krsna, he got thrown by
Krsna, he went so many degrees back. So you can map it on your google maps have where
Aristasura came in and got thrown out. Those little things like there, Aristasura. You don’t
mean that? No, ok.
The point is that’s the meaning of the border. You can be in the spiritual world but still
be in the material world. And what’s the difference? Why is it Aristasura is standing in the
same place that the residents of Vrndavana are, he is in the material world and they are in
the spiritual world, what’s the difference? Consciousness. That’s what makes the difference.
So that’s the tatastha-sakti where the two can be at the same place at the same time and
according to your consciousness you see one or the other. What’s the difference between us
being in the holy dhama? This is the same place. Lord Caitanya is eternally residing here.
All those things are going on, just that sometimes it becomes manifest that everybody can
see, and sometimes it’s not. Same place. So how is it we are here? Because we looked on
google maps and figured out where it was?
Devotee (5): The mercy of the acaryas.
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Maharaja: The mercy of the acaryas, but my point is we still having material consciousness
we can deal with the dhama as material energy and even get material results. Or we can deal
with it, consciousness, as spiritual energy and get spiritual result. This is the meaning of the
border. This border can be anywhere. So it won’t be in the spiritual world because there is
no material energy manifest there. But within the material sphere then it’s not that the
original can’t be there. The material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. So it’s not
that the spiritual can’t be there.
Devotee (5): Just on that point of Durvasa Muni going to the spiritual world that the
demons they are not, they are in… Goloka Vrndavana. So there is some restriction, like
Lord Siva is protecting the dhama?
Maharaja: Are they not there, means what position are you speaking from here?
Devotee (5): About that point that they are saying that the dhama…
Maharaja: Means demons with demoniac mentality are not in the spiritual world. But the
sandhini potency is manifesting demons for pastimes. So there is an Aristasura that comes
and attacks Vrndavana in Goloka, but then Krsna then wrestles with him, defeats him, but
he doesn’t kill him.
Devotee (5): Is it in the spiritual world…
Maharaja: Yeah, but here He kills the demons and all those things. There it’s something for
flavor and then He takes him and then because he is a bull he takes him to the Siva temple
at the bottom of Nandisvara, the hill they live on and ties him up there, because he is bulls
are connected with Lord Siva.
Devotee (5): …
Maharaja: It will be part of the manifestation, yoga-maya’s manifestation. The demoniac
mentality won’t be in what we call the spiritual world meaning Goloka Vrndavana. But the
point is Goloka descends here to the material world. So for Vraja Vrndavana and the
material world to be in the same place and the same time that’s the border. So when it says
the border this is what it means by the border. But because we are so attached to time and
space it’s very hard for us to think any other way. So our questions will always come back to
time and space, and good and bad.
Like we explained this whole thing about good and bad, its connection with
consciousness of the Lord or not. After all that then we get a question about, well, how can
something bad be there? The point is it’s consciousness, it is not location, but we still think
location. All these question up to now are still according to time and space. That’s the
doubt. That’s why it’s discussed, because we are so conditioned by the concept of time and
space.
Devotee (5): This is a different question about consciousness. What is the consciousness of
Durvasa Muni that he was allowed within there? What is a special benediction of the Lord?
Durvasa is not a pure devotee…
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Maharaja: That is a different topic altogether. Because in asking that it throws doubts on
how would somebody get there. Because you want to know the mechanics of it. But here we
are simply talking consciousness, if the consciousness is accepted then it’s there. Means he is
a great yogi so he can move around in so many places. So through that then he goes to
Vaikuntha. But because of who he is he can’t stay there, so he has to come back.
Devotee (5): …yogi, that’s a material power…
Maharaja: It is a material power so therefore where do you find a Vaikuntha planet that is
within the sphere of the material? Dhruvaloka. So that means he went and saw
Ksirodakasayi-Visnu.
Devotee (5): So he didn’t go beyond the Viraja, he didn’t cross…
Maharaja: He didn’t go beyond the Viraja, but this is still you are saying it’s only
consciousness but your confusion is location. Because that Dhruvaloka is no different than a
Vaikuntha planet on the other side of the Viraja river, it’s still Vaikuntha. So we are
pointing out on the other side of the Viraja then you won’t have any mix, there is no
tatastha-sakti as such manifest, because there is no need to create where the spiritual and
material are connected. Because there everybody is in transcendental consciousness, so
therefore the svarupa-sakti manifests the transcendental realm. So just like Vrndavana
manifests here Vaikuntha manifests here. So it’s in the place where the materialists and all
that can go.
So that’s the point because we have this problem with location, if it’s not on the other
side of Viraja it’s not spiritual, but then we are sitting where Lord Caitanya performed His
transcendental pastime.
Devotee (10): So that’s why it’s called International Society for Krsna Consciousness.
Maharaja: Yes, not something else. Being really good at following Vedic rules and
regulations in a contemporary environment, or anything else. It’s simply it’s consciousness.
That’s the whole thing, because self-realization means understanding who you are, then you
change the consciousness. The conditioned self thinks I am of this world, and of this world
is mine. But the spiritual, the living entity in self-realization understands I am servant of
Krsna and therefore I have a particular relationship with Krsna.
Devotee (11): Now, ok, it’s consciousness, but there are different even among Vaisnavas
there are different theories of how is the best method to get to that consciousness. Some
people may say serve the guru, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura focused on the guru’s
instruction. Sometimes they say, no, you need to focus on the rules, realize that you want to
bring your consciousness. So even among Vaisnavas there is some so-called.
Maharaja: Difference.
Devotee (11): Occurrence. How to fill the gap without getting into a mundane conflicture of
it?
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Maharaja: Ok, how do you deal with the different approaches?
Devotee (11): And how also some approaches may sound good but may be largely bogus in
terms of they won’t work. It sounds…, but they won’t work.
Maharaja: The general principle of Krsna consciousness all Vaisnavas of all sampradayas will
accept the same thing. Means that by approaching the guru, by serving the guru, by his
blessings you get the Lord and His internal potency’s blessings then one gets situated in
transcendence. Now exact forms of what surrender means, what service means, all these
different things there will be a difference there. Details, because there is you are dealing
with a wide variety of conditioned natures, you are also dealing with different ways you
want to come to perfection. Someone wants to go to Vaikuntha, someone Ayodhya,
someone Dvaraka, like this. You also have different aspects there. And at the same time all
those same aspects because there is only one path, the same things have to be able to be used
to take you the other way.
Devotee (11): Other way?
Maharaja: Means you can walk on a road one way, but the same process you can walk the
other way. Let’s say I walk from here to the temple, I have a process, I put one foot in front
of the other until I get there. But I want to get from the temple to here it’s the same process.
Devotee (11): How…?
Maharaja: Because the spiritual process and the material process are the same as far as
mechanics go.
Devotee (5): You have to use it to become liberated, but the same thing helps that the user
become bound.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s just like Sukracarya is a guru, Bali Maharaja is surrendered to him, he is
performing sacrifice, he is giving in charity, he is worshiping brahmanas, he is doing all the
things that could take you out of the material world, but they are taking him into the
material world, because they are not connected to the Lord. So they are connected to the
Lord that means his guru is connected to the Lord, so it’s bona fide guru, he is performing
sacrifice connected to the Lord, he is giving in charity connected to the Lord, so everything
becomes perfect. So he wasn’t it wasn’t. But because Vamanadeva came there by the
arrangement of the demigods and all that then actually everything did become connected to
Krsna, so therefore then he got that benefit.
So the process is the same, that’s why we are saying, you are cooking for Krsna or
cooking for maya it’s the same. So in the same way any activity the mechanics of it is the
same. So this idea to deal with the material world I have to use material mechanics, in the
spiritual world spiritual mechanics, that’s an illusion. There aren’t two different mechanics
it’s the same mechanics. It’s just a matter of consciousness which way you are going. So this
idea, oh, we have to go to the karmis to learn management and your professionalism, you
can as a start, if you don’t know where to look in the sastra you can start there, that’s not
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the problem, because it’s the same mechanics, but to think that they are actually separate
mechanics that’s illusion. Actually what they are doing that’s successful is because they are
following the mechanics of elevation properly. But they are not doing it for Krsna, so even
though they seem to be going up, they are actually going down.
Like the person is doing his karma-kanda sacrifice for going to the heavenly planets.
Going to the heavenly planets is an elevation from here because he is more pious, but
technically he is more entangled in the material world. So that’s the thing it’s a reflection,
so what’s higher on one is lower on the other. That’s the difficulty, that we think we are
looking at this but it’s a reflection, so we are seeing it the other way. So performing the same
thing and going.
He loses everything, he has no friend, no relatives, nothing, he is in a really bad
situation, so material we would say that’s on the bottom. But now this person is actually ripe
for taking up Krsna consciousness. Because now he is not so absorbed in the material, he is
more towards the neutral state again. So he could actually coming in contact with the
devotees take up Krsna consciousness. So factually any mechanics of anywhere are actually
spiritual mechanics, they are devotional mechanics, but they are not being used properly.
So someone does something properly, like you distribute food to the devotees, that’s
considered good. So in the material world if you distribute food that’s considered. You make
friendship with the devotees, you are loyal, you are supportive. In the material world you
make friendship, you are loyal, you are supportive, it’s considered good. A devotee is always
engaged in Krsna’s service. In the material world you are always engaged in doing your
occupation or your family, it’s considered good. It’s not something different. But we tend to
make it different.
So therefore the idea that there is a material solution to material problems is actually an
illusion. What it is one is using spiritual solutions but one can either be God conscious, see it
in connection to Krsna, or one can be in illusion and not see it in connection to Krsna. Or
one could be connecting the process to Krsna but be in illusion about its status. In any case
it’s mixed. The service is mixed.
So you can start anywhere, you don’t know anything about let’s say jewels and you want
to know something about it, but you don’t know what sastra talks about it. But you have a
book written by some guy from Amsterdam about jewels. So you read that, you get to know
what’s going on there. But the jewel itself, everything is coming from Krsna, so you know it’s
actually coming from there. Then because of that mentality and slowly slowly eventually
you will come along and find, oh, Garuda Purana talks about it and here in astrology, then
you’ll eventually get back to that, then you can see it all. Because you just thought, ok, we
got to buy some jewels for the deities, what things to do, how do I know what’s real and not.
So you start there. But eventually you’ll get it back there.
So yukta-vairagya means everything can be connected because it is already God in the
first place, but to say that, no, only this way of connecting is good and the Vedic way is not
that’s bogus, that’s illusion. So when we are speaking strongly about the Western mentality
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and Western, we are not talking about somebody is wearing pants or going to karmi school,
that’s not the discussion at all. The discussion is if they think only wearing pants is good, or
the Vedic is not actually viable in this age, or stuff like that. They are following God’s laws,
which are all the Vedic tenets, just they don’t know it’s the Vedic tenets, and suddenly that
makes it contemporary, and if you do know its connection then you are archaic.
Just like people will say if you are loyal to your wife that’s good. But now if I just say that
because I feel like that or that’s what people do in the society, then that’s ok. But if I say you
are supposed to be loyal because that’s what God wants, then that’s archaic. It’s the same
thing. Where did the one come from? Did it just pop out of nowhere? Where did it come
from? You found it under a rock here. Oh, here it is, I wonder. So that’s illusion, that’s the
problem.
So consciousness is the main thing, just like you pointed out therefore International
Society for Krsna Consciousness, all other things are in consideration of consciousness. So
therefore picking a location, what activity is done, this and that, it doesn’t matter if the
consciousness is there. Like Jayananda, he drove a taxi, I think he was the temple president
of San Franscisco but he drove a taxi to make money for the temple, because his
consciousness is good it’s not a problem, no one complains. These early devotees all had jobs.
So it’s not a problem. But if you say, no, no, being real. How come you are not at the temple?
Well, I am being realistic, I am driving a taxi, you can’t be fanatic and be in the temple all
the time. That person is in maya. But if it’s, oh, hey, how come I didn’t see you in the
temple? Because I am driving a taxi otherwise we don’t have much income at the temple, so
then I thought because I am responsible, I am the president, I should get a job, so I know
how to drive, so I had contacts, I got a job as a taxi driver. In that way then he gets some
money for the temple. That’s not illusion, that’s not maya. The other one is. But they are
both doing the same thing.
So that’s the thing it’s seen that it’s two paths. But that’s why Krsna in the Gita points
out it’s only one path, there is not two paths. It’s just which direction you are going on the
one path. You are cooking for yourself you are going away from Krsna. You are cooking for
Krsna you are going towards Krsna. Recipe is the same, you are looking in the same book,
using the same pots and pans, same ingredients. But one’s following the path towards, one’s
following away.
So consciousness makes the difference between the material world and the spiritual
world. So if the consciousness is right then one is awarded with proper residence in one or
the other. It’s a better situation.
Does that work? It’s a very subtle point. But at the same time it’s so simple and so all-
encompassing that everything else fits into it as far as identities, activities, and goals. That’s
the beauty of the Krsna conscious philosophy, it’s so simple. Like Prabhupada said, so
sublime. It’s so subtle that it just, it’s so perfect that it can’t be understood. Because we want,
no but. Because we insist on not looking at things by consciousness but by something else.
Ok, yeah, consciousness, but how you did it, then he’ll drop it down to morality. Or yeah,
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consciousness, but then the mechanics. Or consciousness, but then the place. It will always
drop it down. But if the consciousness is in place then you deal with the detail. Because for
us what you are doing, where, when, that’s a detail of the consciousness. The principle is to
be Krsna conscious, then the detail will be time, place, and circumstance. But in the modern
they make time, place, and circumstance their principle, and so then there is something to
argue over. Because in the material world there is duality, so there has to be a right and
wrong. It can’t be that all aspects have something connected and you just wherever someone
is you start there and someone else starts here.
It’s like if you are talking to a guy in a suit, a businessman, you might start the
conversation off differently then if you were talking to let’s say some straight-edge punk.
And here we are using punk in a more, not in a derogatory sense but, unless, of course,
straight-edge and punk are contradictory terms, which also might be.
Devotee (12): They generally don’t go together.
Maharaja: They don’t go together, ok. Just to make sure…
So you might talk differently. The guy in the suit you use a little bit more academic
language and a little bit more this and that and slowly go into things once he is comfortable.
And your straight-edge just wants it right upfront, right in his face. So it’s just the way you
are going to do it.
So that’s the difficulty, seeing this then you can deal with anyone, anywhere, in any
situation and turn it into Krsna consciousness. So this idea of soft preaching is simply that
one is more aware of a particular situation, but the problem with it is it’s not actually dealing
with time, place, and circumstance in general, it’s dealing with the specific time, specific
place, specific circumstance, it doesn’t go beyond that. Soft preaching is only meant for
certain people. There is no soft preaching program for a red neck from Alabama. There
isn’t. Soft preaching is simply for educated, kind of liberal intellectuals of a generally tends
towards professional, that’s it. It’s that narrow. But they’ll be talking about it as if it’s the
panacea for every kind of preaching. No, all it is it’s for that particular group, and even that
I would even doubt whether it works. Because the people who talk all that I haven’t seen
make devotees. The people who don’t talk about it just do it.
Like Devamrta Maharaja. He makes tons of devotees. Oh, slow, this that. In the time
that they even made it where they feel comfortable that they are friends Devamrta has
already turned them into a devotee and shaved them up, and they live in a temple and they
are out doing sankirtana. He is talking at the same people. But he is just careful of the
language. While the others are careful to not present Krsna consciousness. Why? Because
they are not actually conscious of what they are doing, they are actually in illusion. Because
what you are trying to do is make people conscious.
Devotee (3): Maharaja, is it true that the quality of one’s consciousness is a function of just
sambandha-jnana, or it is also based on your goal or your activities?
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Maharaja: Is your identity based on your goal or activities. Specifically speaking a particular
identity therefore has the options of particular goals and that combination then decides
specific activities. But if you don’t know who you are and therefore when I talk about
knowing who you are it doesn’t make sense to you I can start off by talking goal.
So all there is, there is sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana. So you start with
sambandha, understanding who you are, you know what your goals are, therefore you know
your processes. That would be your normal way of dealing with it. But if people can’t
understand that way, in other words, it’s not presented that way or they never heard of it
because generally outside of Gaudiya Vaisnavism they won’t even know this, so therefore
you might inspire him by what is the weakness in this whole process.
In other words, your success gurus they have a general kind of understanding of this
sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana. They don’t classify it so clearly, but they emphasize
an aspect of this more prominently, that’s what makes their school of thought unique or
different. So therefore you’ll find that those who are goal-oriented. So you, what’s your goal?
Ok, my goal is this. So to do that then you have to be like this. So then they create your
identity out of your goal. But until the identity is there you can’t get the goal. So it’s not
that you can get the goal and then get your identity. No, you have to get the identity. So
this is the problem with it that they don’t define that and people don’t actually understand
that through defining your goals you are actually defining your identity therefore you can
act to get them. So they don’t explain that part, so that’s why the process will be called goal-
oriented.
Devotee (3): Dream-lining.
Maharaja: Dream-lining, yeah. But the thing is the reason the person who is talking about it
who comes up with it is successful is because he actually does have a general kind of feeling
towards all three, but he only talks about one. That’s the illusion.
Then someone else talks about you have to have a plan and execute your plan, you can’t
be lazy, you got to get out there and just do it. The Nike, just do it. So that’s based on
abhidheya. But the just do it means who am I, what am I trying to get to. The other two have
to come. That one is used less because already there means you already have to have an
inspiration and identity. Because attachment or your goal is simply a further deeper
contemplation of who you are and what you want. So those ones work easy. Very few, means
the one of just doing it is already meant for people who everything is in place but they
haven’t done something. They think it will come along or it will happen, and then you tell
him, you got to do it. Ok, then they can already do it. So it’s more narrow.
Then you have another very, very popular, probably even more, because goal-oriented
generally means they have an identity, just like army and things like that, they use goal-
orientation because it’s that big businessman like this and that. We have the thing, we make
money, but break it down into specifics. So they are already active.
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But more general for the general populace is the law of attraction, what do you want,
what is it you want to do, so you want to do that therefore it attracts it, but why does it
attract it? Because action comes from attachment, attachment comes from contemplation.
So they are thinking just by thinking about it it happened. They don’t understand the
mechanics that went there. That’s why it stays just in this dot pattern for most people and it
never happens because they don’t know that you have to think about it and you have to do
it.
And then some people it’s like all this is there but they are so insecure that you have to
drop it back farther into sambandha into just the field and then you have all your rich dad
poor dad, and you can do it, you are born rich, all that kind of thing. They are trying to
inspire confidence in yourself that I can do something. And then once I am doing it then
generally they have their desires and plans and then they go ahead and do it. But it works
for some people but not for everybody.
So the point is the actual processes is you inspire them that you can do something
because you have a real identity, we are servant of Krsna. Then within that then what
service you want to do for Krsna. Then contemplating that you get attached to a particular
thing. You have a goal, you have a plan, then you execute that plan. So that’s a complete
process.
So that’s why I am saying, there isn’t anything outside the process. So this thing of
saying that we can’t learn business from Prabhupada’s books or management or this or that
is 100% bogus. It’s just pure ignorance on the part of whoever allows that to fall out of their
mouth.
Devotee (3): So the extent we are able to connect out identity to Krsna then we are under
the sandhini-sakti, otherwise we are in ignorance…?
Maharaja: Yes, means sandhini is in the place of, means sandhini in the spiritual world is
reflected here as the mode of ignorance. So either you have an identity as Krsna’s servant or
you have an identity that I am in ignorance and I am material energy.
Devotee (3): But it’s based on our understanding of jiva, isvara, prakrti?
Maharaja: Jiva, isvara, prakrti, yes, it’s…cit, acit, isvara, that’s the thing.
Devotee (3): So that’s what…people are missing. They don’t have the isvara part…
Maharaja: They don’t have the isvara because they don’t know the goal is based on the
Supreme Lord, it’s not based on us. The process is given by the Lord. Everything is given by
the Lord. So we’ll end here.
I am not quite sure if there’ll be class tomorrow. I might have to go to Calcutta. I was
going to say check with Santi but he left. You might check with him tomorrow. I’ll let him
know later today if I will be here or not.
Devotee (5): Evening classes…
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Maharaja: No, no, summer time no evening class. Because it’s like the only thing really good
to do in the evening is melt because of the heat, so anything else is not so efficient. So I
would recommend sitting in the Ganga up to your neck, not more than that, because that
might be even dangerous, snorkel or something, gills maybe.
Also it’s Purusottama month so one who takes bath it’s greatly. Purusottama month it’s
like Ekadasi in that it’s so special that it’s not allowed to do mundane karma-kanda
activities. That’s why there is no samskaras, there is no nothing in this month. Because it’s
so good you only use it for spiritual. Because it’s actually directly pleasing to Krsna. And the
benefits from following Purusottama month are actually I think 16 times greater than
following kartika. You take bath in the Ganga you get 12000 times the benefit than if it’s in
another month. So you can try that. It’s hot, so sit in the Ganga. (end of lecture) (end)
April 22 – May 7, 2010

(recordings missing)
Yadava dasa: Why, then, though we endeavor to attain it, we do not succeed in
regaining the consciousness of our original spiritual identity?
Ananta dasa: Those endeavors are of two kinds: 1. appropriate, and 2. inappropriate.
Appropriate endeavors inevitably throw far away all material illusions about our identity.
On the other hand, how can one succeed if his endeavors are not appropriate?
Yadava dasa: What are inappropriate endeavors? Please tell me.
Ananta dasa: When a soul purifies his heart by performing the duties of karma-kanda,
takes shelter of the impersonal Brahman, and thinks "Now I will become free of maya", his
endeavors are all inappropriate. When a soul tries to attain spiritual perfection by
performing astanga-yoga and entering a trance of samadhi, his endeavor also is
inappropriate. There are many other kinds of inappropriate endeavor also.
Yadava dasa: Why are these endeavors not appropriate?
Ananta dasa: They are not appropriate because many obstacles stop one from attaining
the desired results by practicing them, and because there is only the most slender chance
that one will succeed by practicing them. We were thrust into this material world because
we committed an offense. We will not be able to throw away our material condition of life
without first attaining the mercy of that person we offended. Without His mercy we will not
attain our original pure state.
Yadava dasa: What are the appropriate means?
Ananta dasa: Association with devotees and surrender. Association with devotees is
described in these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.30):
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"Therefore, O completely sinless ones, I ask you to kindly tell me what the supreme good
is. After all, even half a minute's association with pure devotees within this world of birth
and death is a priceless treasure for any man."
If you ask, "How can the souls in this material world attain the supreme good," then I
say, "if one has a moment's association with the devotees of the Lord, then one will attain
the supreme good." The Supreme Personality of Godhead describes surrender in these words
of Bhagavad-gita (7.14):
"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult
to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."
Here the Lord says, "My divine maya potency consists of the three material modes of
goodness, passion and ignorance. By his own endeavor, a human being cannot cross beyond
this maya. Therefore this maya is very difficult to overcome. However a person who
surrenders unto Me and takes shelter of Me can cross beyond this maya."
Candi dasa: O saintly one, I am not able to understand all these explanations very well.
This much I understand: I am originally a pure being. Forgetting Krsna, I have fallen into
maya. I am bound in the prison of the material world. By Lord Krsna's mercy I may be
released. If I do not attain Lord Krsna's mercy, I will stay in this condition.
Ananta dasa: Yes. Now you accept this much. Your teacher, Yadava dasa knows all these
truths, and you have learned them from him. In the book Sri Prema-vivarta, Sri
Jagadananda, who is a close associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has said:
"The individual soul is a tiny particle of spirit, and Lord Krsna is a great sun of spirit.
The liberated soul always gazes at Lord Krsna. The liberated soul always worships Lord
Krsna.
"As soon as one becomes inimical to Krsna and desires sense gratification, he is
immediately struck down by the illusory energy of the Lord.
"When a living entity is conditioned by material nature, he is exactly like a person
haunted by a ghost.
"Forgetting the words 'In my perfect state I am servant of Krsna', he serves maya for a
long time.
"Sometimes he is a king. Sometimes he is a citizen. Sometimes he is a brahmana.
Sometimes he is a sudra. Sometimes he is sad. Sometimes he is happy. Sometimes he is a tiny
insect.
"Sometimes he is in Svargaloka. Sometimes he is in the earthly realms. Sometimes he is
in hell. Sometimes he is a demigod. Sometimes he is a demon. Sometimes he is a servant.
Sometimes he is a master. Sometimes he is a servant.
"Thus he wanders in the material worlds. When he attains the association of devotees,
he can understand the truth about himself.
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"When he understands the truth about himself he no longer wishes to stay in the
material world. Then he laments, 'Why did I serve maya for so long?"
"He weeps and cries out, 'O Krsna, I am Your servant. By leaving Your feet, I lost
everything."
"When the soul once cries for Krsna in this way, Lord Krsna becomes merciful and helps
him leave the material world.
"Then the soul turns away from maya. Again and again worshipping Krsna, the soul
attains Krsna's lotus feet.
"Krsna then places that soul under the protection of His internal potency. Maya then
loses her power. Maya no longer attracts that soul.
"This is attained by associating with devotees and chanting the holy names of Lord
Krsna. There is no other way to escape the material world of birth and death."
Yadava dasa: O saintly babaji, you speak of association with devotees, but devotees also
live in the material world. They also suffer in the material world. How is it possible that they
can deliver other souls?
Ananta dasa: Devotees live in the material world. Still, the material world that is their
home is very different from the material world that is home to the souls bewildered by maya.
Looking at them from the outside, they seem to be the same world. But within they are very
different. There are always some devotees in the material world. Still, the non-devotees do
not choose to associate with them. The association of devotees is rarely attained. The souls
devoured by maya may be divided into two groups: 1. those who, mad to enjoy the tiny
pleasures of maya, worship the material world, and 2. the intelligent souls who, not attracted
to the pleasures of maya, hope to attain better pleasures. In this way the residents of the
material world are divided into two groups: 1. the unintelligent, and 2. the intelligent. Some
call these two groups: 1. those who desire material sense gratification, and 2. those who
desire liberation. The phrase "those who desire liberation" does not refer to the
impersonalists. It means "those who, burned by the flames of the world of repeated birth and
death, seek to understand their true spiritual identity. The Vedic literatures call such
persons "those who desire liberation". When such persons renounce the desire to attain
impersonal liberation and instead engage in worshipping and serving the Supreme
Personality of Godhead, their worship is called pure devotional service. The scriptures do
not order that one should renounce the desire for liberation. Rather, the moment he
understands the truth of Lord Krsna and the individual spirit soul, the person desiring
liberation becomes at once liberated. This is explained in the following words of Srimad-
Bhagavatam (6.14.3-5):
"In this material world there are as many living entities as atoms. Among these living
entities a very few are human beings, and among them few are interested in following
religious principles.
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"O best of the brahmanas, Sukadeva Goswami, out of many persons who follow religious
principles, only a few desire liberation from the material world. Among many thousands
who desire liberation, one may actually achieve liberation, giving up material attachment to
society, friendship, love, country, home, wife, and children. And among many thousands of
such liberated persons, one who can understand the true meaning of liberation is very rare.
"O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of
liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nityananda, or Krsna. Such devotees, who are fully
peaceful, are extremely rare."
As the number grains of sand in the world cannot be counted. Among these souls a
small number seek eternal auspiciousness. Most are interested in material sense
gratification. Of those who seek the highest spiritual good, most are interested in liberation,
which means to escape the material world. Of thousands and thousands of souls seeking
liberation, few attain the perfection of truth and actually become liberated. Of millions and
millions of liberated souls, few become peaceful devotees of Lord Narayana. A devotee of
Lord Narayana is very rare. A devotee of Lord Krsna is even more rare. Even though they
may live in the material world, the devotees of Lord Krsna experience a life that is different
from the life of the materialists. The devotees of Lord Krsna experience two conditions of
existence.
Yadava dasa: You have said that there are four kinds of intelligent persons. What are
their different statements of existence, and what is association with devotees?
Ananta dasa: There are four kinds of intelligent persons: 1. those who are the beginning
stage of being intelligent, 2. those who desire to attain liberation, 3. those who are liberated,
and 4. those who have attained perfection, or in other words, the devotees of the Lord. For
persons at the beginning states of being intelligent, association with persons who desire
liberation is good. The liberated souls may be divided into two groups: 1. liberated souls who
taste the nectar of the spiritual mellows, and 2. the mayavadis, who falsely imagine that they
are not different from the Supreme. These mayavadis are considered offenders. All classes of
people are forbidden to associate with them. In the Tenth Canto (Srimad-Bhagavatam
10.2.31) it is said:
"O lotus-eyed one, those who think they are liberated in this life but do not render
devotional service to You must be of impure intelligence. Although they accept severe
austerities and penances and rise to the spiritual position, to impersonal Brahman
realization, they fall down again because they neglect to worship Your lotus feet."
The fourth kind of intelligent person, the devotees, are divided into two groups: 1. those
who worship the Lord in His feature of opulence, and 2. those who worship the Lord in His
feature of sweetness. Association with such devotees is beneficial in every way. Especially, if
one takes shelter of a devotee who is attached to the Lord's feature in sweetness, the nectar
of pure devotional service rises within his heart.
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Yadava dasa: You have said that there are two kinds of devotees. Please describe them
more clearly, so even unintelligent persons like myself can understand.
Ananta dasa: The devotees are of two kinds: 1. householder devotees, and 2. devotees
who have renounced householder life.
Yadava dasa: What is the situation of a householder devotee in the material world.
Please kindly explain this.
Ananta dasa: The word "householder" does not mean "one who builds a house". Rather,
the word means "a person who accepts a wife and stays with her in a house." A devotee in
this situation is called a "householder devotee". A soul bound in the prison of the illusory
potency maya, enters the material world through the doors of the five knowledge-acquiring
senses. Through the door of the eyes he sees forms and colors. Through the door of the ears
he hears sounds. Through the door of the nose he smells fragrances. Through the door of the
skin he touches. Through the door of the tongue he tastes. Entering the material world
through these five doors, the soul becomes attached to the world. As he becomes attached to
the material world, the soul goes farther and farther from Sri Krsna, the Lord of the heart.
That is why the material world is called "the external world". Those who are mad after
enjoying the material world are called hedonists. The householder devotees of the Lord are
not eager to please their senses. Therefore they are not like the hedonists. For a householder
devotee, his wife is the maidservant of Lord Krsna. His sons and daughters are also all the
servants of Lord Krsna. When with his eyes he sees the Deity form of Lord Krsna or the
form of things related to Lord Krsna, the householder devotee becomes happy. When with
his ears he hears the topics of Lord Krsna or the biographies of the great devotees, the
householder devotee becomes happy. When with his nose he smells the tulasi leaves and
fragrances offered to Lord Krsna, the householder devotee becomes filled with bliss. With
his tongue the householder devotee tastes the holy names of Lord Krsna and remnants of
food offered to Lord Krsna. When with his skin he touches the feet of the Lord's devotees,
the householder devotee becomes happy. His hopes, actions, desires, hospitality, and service
to the Deity are all used in the service of Lord Krsna. His entire life is a great festival of 1.
mercy to others, 2. the holy name of Lord Krsna, and 3. service to Vaisnavas. In this way a
devotee householder remains aloof from hedonism: In the age of Kali it is very appropriate
that the individual souls become householder Vaisnava. In that way there is no fear that
they will fall down. Also, by following this path one may attain the full perfection of
devotional service. Many self-realized Vaisnava spiritual masters are householders. Their
children also are pure devotees. In this way association with householder devotees of the
Lord is especially beneficial to the souls in this world.
Yadava dasa: Householder Vaisnavas are naturally under the control of the smarta
panditas. If the Vaisnavas try to be independent of them, there is trouble. In this situation
how is it possible to engage in pure devotional service?
Ananta dasa: For marrying off sons and daughters, for performing funeral rites, and for a
few others rituals it may be necessary to engage smarta panditas. Still, there is no need to
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engage them for the spiritual activities that are most dear to the heart. Look, for
maintaining the material body all are dependent on others. Even those who proudly think
themselves independent are in truth still dependent on others. When one suffers from
disease, he must take medicine. When one is hungry, he must eat food. To ward off the cold,
one must accept clothing. Because of the sun, rain, and other difficulties one must build a
house. For these and many other things one needs to maintain his material body, one must
depend on others. To be independent is merely, as far as possible, to limit these situations of
depending on others. The truth is, however, that no one can be completely independent and
still maintain his material body. Still, to be independent as far as possible is good and helpful
for devotional service. If one observes all these previously described rituals in relation to
Lord Krsna, then there is no fault in observing them. For example, if marriage is accepted
not only to beget good children and worship the Prajapati, but also to engage one's wife and
family in devotional service to Lord Krsna, then household life is favorable for devotional
service. Let the materialists, the Vedic priests, and other say what they will, one still attains
the spiritual benefit of these devotional activities. On the sraddha day one should first
worship Lord Krsna, offer the remnants of that offering as pinda to his ancestors, and then
feed the brahmana Vaisnavas. These activities are favorable for a householder's devotional
service. When these smarta rituals may be performed in the context of devotional service.
Then that are not at all unfavorable to pure devotional service. Ordinary activities should
be done with a sense of detachment and renunciation. Spiritual activities should be
performed in the association of devotees. Then one will not be at fault. Look. Most of Lord
Caitanya Mahaprabhu's personal associates were householder devotees. From time without
beginning many great rajarsis (saintly kings) and devarsis (divine sages) were householder
devotees. Dhruva Maharaja, Prahlada Maharaja, the Pandavas, and many others were all
householders. Householder devotees of the Lord are worshipped by all the world.
Yadava dasa: If householder devotees are so worshippable and qualified to attain all
spiritual love, then why do some devotees renounce householder life?
Ananta dasa: Among the householder devotees, for some it is appropriate to renounce
household life. However, in the material world the number of these devotees is very small
and association with them is very rare.
Yadava dasa: What makes a man qualified to renounce household life?
Ananta dasa: Human beings have two kinds of activities: 1. external activities, and 2.
internal activities. In the language of the Vedas these activities are called "parak" and
"pratyak". When a pure spirit soul forgets its original spiritual form, misidentifies himself as
a subtle material body (of mind, intelligence, and false ego), and, exits through the door of
the material senses, he becomes attracted to the external world of material sense objects.
These are called "external activities". When the direction is reversed, and the soul goes from
the material sense objects to the mind and then to the original form of the soul, then these
are called "internal activities". As long as the desire to perform external activities is strong,
one should stay in the association of devotees, and without offense perform these external
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activities with the idea that this material world is Lord Krsna's property. By thus taking
shelter of devotional service to Lord Krsna, in a very short time the external direction of
one's activities becomes reversed and one's activities are then directed inward. When one is
thus fully engaged in internal spiritual activities, he becomes qualified to renounce
household life. If one tries to renounce household life before one reaches that stage, then
there is the danger that he will fall down. Household life is then a school where one gains
experience and learns the true nature of the spirit soul. When the education is complete,
one may leave the school.
Yadava dasa: What are the symptoms of a devotee qualified to renounce household life?
Ananta dasa: The first symptom is that 1. one is not enthusiastic to associate with
women. Other symptoms are: 2. mercy to all living entities, 3. considering that activities to
accumulate money are not very important, 4. endeavoring to attain a home and clothing
only when they are genuinely needed, 5. faith in Lord Krsna, 6. love and devotion for Lord
Krsna, 7. considering that it is not good to associate with worldly people, 8. thinking praise
and criticism are the same, 8. aversion to material activities, and 9. not being concerned
whether one lives or dies. These symptoms are described in the following words of the
scriptures (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.45, 3.25.22 and 11.2.55):
"A person advanced in devotional service sees within everything the soul of all souls, the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. Consequently he always sees the form of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead as the cause of all causes and understands that all things
are situated in Him."
"Such a sadhu engages in staunch devotional service to the Lord without deviation. For
the sake of the Lord he renounces all other connections, such as family relationships and
friendly acquaintances within the world."
"Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who destroys everything inauspicious for
His devotees, does not leave the hearts of His devotees even if they remember Him and
chant about Him inattentively. This is because the rope of love always binds the Lord
within the devotees' hearts. Such devotees should be accepted as most elevated."
When these qualities manifest in a householder devotee, that devotee finds himself
unable to continue with his household duties. At that time he renounces household life.
Such a renounced devotee is rare. Association with such a devotee brings great good
fortune.
Yadava dasa: Nowadays I see that some young men renounce household life, accept the
garments of a renunciant, build a temple, and serve the Lord. As time passes they eventually
fall into evil association with women, but they do not give up chanting the holy names of
Lord Hari. To maintain the temple they beg alms at different places. Are such devotees
householders or renunciants?
Ananta dasa: You ask many questions at once. Can I reply in a single answer? Being
young or old has no bearing on renunciation. By purification in past lives or in this life a
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young man may become qualified to renounce household life. From his very birth Sukadeva
Goswami was qualified for renunciation. One should see if the qualification is genuinely
there. It should not be artificial. If he is genuinely renounced, there is no harm in a young
man accepting the renounced order.
Yadava dasa: What is genuine renunciation and what is artificial renunciation?
Ananta dasa: Genuine renunciation is strong. It does not break in any situation.
Artificial renunciation is based on the desire to be honored by others. This kind of
renunciation is marked by cheating and impiety. Thinking "a devotee who renounces
household life is worshipped and respected," and hoping to be worshipped in this way, a man
artificially renounces the world. Such renunciation brings no benefit. Rather, it is the
source of great inauspiciousness. As soon as he attains his end and he accepts the order of
renunciation, his qualifications disappear. From that moment his true wickedness is
manifested.
Yadava dasa: When a devotee renounces family life should he accept the garments of a
renunciant?
Ananta dasa: When he has definitely thrown far away the desire for household life, a
devotee may live in the forest (as a renunciant) or he may live at home (as a householder).
In either situation he remains a renounced soul, who has nothing to do with the material
world. Such a great devotee purifies the entire world. Among these renounced souls some
accept the external signs of the renounced order and wear the kaupina and kantha. At the
time of accepting the kaupina and kantha, they take a firm vow of renunciation in the
presence of other renounced Vaisnavas. This is called "entering the renounced asrama" or
"accepting the garments of a renunciant". If one accepts the garments of a renunciant, what
is the harm? One who has thus renounced the world should not stay in contact with his
relatives. He should stay away from them. He should not desire to enter either his home or
others. A person who is genuinely renounced should be cautious in dealing with others. A
person advanced in renunciation does not need to wear the garments of a renunciant. Still,
for some persons wearing the garments of renunciation is useful. It is said (Srimad-
Bhagavatam 4.29.45):
"When a person is fully engaged in devotional service, he is favored by the Lord, who
bestows His causeless mercy. At such a time, the awakened devotee gives up all material
activities and ritualistic performances mentioned in the Vedas."
Yadava dasa: From whom should one accept the garments of a renunciant?
Ananta dasa: One should accept the garments of a renunciant from a Vaisnava who has
renounced household life. A householder devotee has not experienced the ways of one who
has renounced household life, therefore a householder devotee should not give initiation
into the renounce asrama. The reason for this is written in these words of the scriptures (Sri
Brahma-vaivarta Purana):
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"If one teaches a religious principle he does not himself follow, that teaching pushes the
world closer to destruction."
Yadava dasa: What thoughts arise in the mind of a spiritual master who is about to give
initiation into the renounce asrama?
Ananta dasa: First the spiritual master should see whether the disciple is qualified. Has
this householder devotee been able, by engaging in devotional service, to control his mind
and senses and act in a spiritual way? Is he free of the desire to associate with a woman? Has
he uprooted the thirst for money and the desire toe at sumptuous foods? The spiritual master
will stay near the disciple and observe him for some day. When he knows for certain that
the disciple is qualified, the spiritual master will initiate him into the renounced order. He
will not initiate any disciple before knowing that he is qualified. If he gives an unqualified
person initiation into the renounced order, the spiritual master himself will fall down.
Yadava dasa: Now I see. Accepting the renounced order is not simply a matter of
speaking words with one's mouth. It is very difficult. Pretenders who are not qualified to be
spiritual masters are making it a common thing. Now is only the beginning. No one knows
what will be the end.
Ananta dasa: In order to keep this system pure, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu punished
Chota Haridasa, whose offense was very slight. The followers of Lord Caitanya should
always remember the punishment of Chota Haridasa.
May 10, 2010

Maharaja:
Yadava dasa: After accepting the order of renunciation should one build a temple and
worship the Deity of the Lord?
Ananta dasa: No. A person who has accepted the renounced order should live by
begging every day. In that way he should maintain his life. He will net enter a situation of
dealing with material affairs, as will come from building a temple. He will live in a secluded
cottage, or in a temple managed by a householder. He will not do anything that requires
money. He will always offenselessly chant the holy names of Lord Krsna.
Yadava dasa: What do you say about a renunciant who builds a temple and then lives
like a householder?
Ananta dasa: I say he is a person who eats his own vomit. First he vomits and then he
eats what he has vomited.
Yadava dasa: Is he not a Vaisnava?
Ananta dasa: He has become a materialist. He breaks the rules of scripture and the rules
of being a Vaisnava. Why should you associate with him? He has renounced the ways of pure
devotional service and accepted the role of a cheater. How is he like the Vaisnavas?
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Yadava dasa: If he has not given up chanting the holy names of Lord Hari, how can you
say he has ceased to be a Vaisnava?
Ananta dasa: Chanting the holy names of Lord Hari and committing offenses to the
holy name of Lord Hari are different things. When a person commits sin on the strength of
chanting the holy name, that is an offense to the holy name. You should stay always very far
away from offenses to the holy name.
Yadava dasa: Should his household life not be called "household life dedicated to Lord
Krsna?"
Ananta dasa: It should not be called that. In household life dedicated to Lord Krsna
there is no cheating or hypocrisy. That household life is completely honest and sincere.
That household life is not based on an offense.
Yadava dasa: Then I suppose he is inferior to a regular householder devotee.
Ananta dasa: He is not a devotee. How can you consider his status, high or low, among
the devotees?
Yadava dasa: How can he be rescued?
Ananta dasa: When he gives up all his offenses, always chants the holy name, and sheds
tears of repentance, he may be counted again among the devotees.
So in here we are seeing a mentality we are dealing with. The externals are very
important, but more important we are looking at mentality here. So the element is they
have taken up this lifestyle but the enthusiasm is within that lifestyle, and so the focus being
there then we find that Ananta dasa isn’t very impressed by the situation or positioning. So
one has to be very, very careful in dealing with these kind of things that the point is that of
honesty or that of sincerity. Otherwise then you have a problem with the chanting of the
holy name. So here he is trying to bring that aspect out.
Remember, before we are talking about the difference he is dealing from the internal
and now he has moved back to an external vision. We are not talking about internal vision
and that remains that way. We are talking about it switched to an external vision. So that
external vision means then going on very happily doing all these activities and thinking
they are perfectly fine, perfectly normal. When in actuality the situation is not actually very
good.
Yadava dasa: O saintly babaji, householder devotees live under the shelter of the
varnasrama system. May a householder devotee leave the varnasrama system?
Ananta dasa: Ah! The Vaisnava religion is very broad and generous. Another name for
the Vaisnava religion is "Jaiva-dharma" (the religion for all human beings). This means that
every human being is qualified to join the Vaisnava religion. Even outcastes may embrace
the Vaisnava religion and live as householders. For them there is no varnasrama. They who
break the varnasrama rules of sannyasa may, by associating with devotees, attain pure
devotional service. Then they may be householder devotees. For them there are no rules of
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varnasrama. Those who because of their misdeeds have left the varnasrama system may still,
along with their children, take shelter of pure devotional service in the association of the
devotees. Then they are householder devotees. But they are not part of the varnasrama
system. Householder devotees are of two kinds: 1. those who follow the varnasrama system,
and 2. those who do not follow the varnasrama system.
In other words, one is following the varnasrama system connecting that to Krsna and
everything and performing their sadhana. The other is only the basis is simply on what is
their devotional activities, and that being their focus then that becomes the prominent
element that they are trying to connect to Krsna. Otherwise aspect of the life they don’t
worry about so much. Technically here it will be unfolded how these different things will
work but the element is one can be a devotee and not follow varnasrama, because devotional
service beyond any other consideration. But the point is that the varnasrama is simply how
all elements can be connected to Krsna. In other words, all the different aspects in the life
that distract one those can all be nicely connected, though indirectly, but they can all be
connected. So this connection then is what’s important. So then in following the
varnasrama then it deals with all details of life, basically all detail, everything. And so in
dealing with all those details then you have a nice naturally automatic way of connecting it.
But, of course, then that means someone is comfortable to think in that way, see in that
way, they’ll see cleanliness in all situations, they’ll see the ways of dealing and etiquette,
they’ll see religious ways of performing any activity. But if one doesn’t see like that then still
one can practice devotional service that one is trying to see everything simply through the
devotional element, the ultimately how you are connecting it, not the mechanics of it. Or
you are just thinking about Krsna when you are doing whatever things you are doing. So you
are not actually you could say specifically connecting the activity you are doing to Krsna,
but you are always absorbed in Krsna.
You are fixing your car but you are thinking about what program you are going to do for
Janmastami or things like that. So you are not connecting technically the mechanics of the
car to Krsna, though eventually then you’ll drive the car to the temple to go to Janmastami.
So you are dealing very lightly with the externals. And the prominence is on absorption in
the sadhana, hearing, chanting, remembering, associating with devotees. So if that’s strong
the other can be is not so important. But what one has to be careful of it if one is distracted
from being absorbed very naturally in Krsna, but one is absorbed in all kinds of other aspects
of human existence, non-devotional, that’s when it becomes useful to apply the varnasrama.
That’s the point. But if one is just simply absorbed in Krsna it’s not so important. If you are
already following it you continue following it, you are connected like that. If you are not it
doesn’t really matter.
So the reason for it being so much discussed is because many times we see devotees are
trying to expand their life and developing it in a sophisticated way. They are developing all
kinds of social consideration. So if you are going to do that then it should be Vedic. So that’s
the thing, it should go on like that. One might think it’s two different things. It’s not two
different things.
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It’s just like, ok, if the wife is at home, you are at the temple and absorbed in activities
there and this and that, ok, so she is missing you and this and that, but it works, you are at
the temple. But if you are not so much in the temple you are out in the courtyard just
hanging out talking to other ladies there from the community and this and that eating some
pizza and this and that, then the wife is going to think, if you are going to hang out with the
ladies then you are going to hang out with me.
So that’s the point if you are not considering social considerations and you are not
absorbed in all that money and all position, these things aren’t there, just absorbed in Krsna,
you just do out of naturally whatever you do but your absorption is in Krsna. You go to your
job but you can’t wait to get home, you can have a kirtana and do the evening aratika, or
meets devotees, or go to the temple, or read Bhagavatam, like this, so then it doesn’t really
matter the technicalities that you are connecting the work, not connecting the work,
because ultimately you are going to connect it to money you can use for Krsna. So the
details of connecting it aren’t so important.
But if you are going to get into your work and the ethics of the work and this is
important, we are human beings, we have to truth and honesty and all this and that, and
you get into this and you go to your Spa…then you’d better be doing following varnasrama,
because that is human culture, the other is not so much.
So therefore it can function without. That’s why we see in the beginning of the
movement, very minimal aspects of varnasrama are there. Because we have to remember,
varnasrama is the very broad picture, everything is included in it. Going into that and
taking out the essential points of varnasrama that are directly connected to the Lord or in
direct support of those activities connected to the Lord, like taking a bath or doing
acamana, they are directly connected to your deity worship, those aspects drawn out is
called Pancaratra. So it’s actually the Vedic system, the Vedic culture, but it’s only what’s
connected specifically to the deity. So our lifestyle is actually technically Pancaratrika, you
get up in the morning, taking a bath, chanting Gayatri, putting tilaka, going to the temple,
offering obeisances, mangala-aratika, doing the puja, worshiping the spiritual master,
circumambulating the deities, taking darsana, caranamrta, prasada, doing some service
connected to the deity, that’s all Pancaratra. That’s all defined by Pancaratra is the lifestyle.
Association with devotees, worshiping tulasi, studying the scriptures, chanting the holy
name, receiving dealing with guests, living in the dhama. These are all part of Pancaratra.
This all makes Pancaratra. So that we are doing, so that aspect is there, so that’s then makes
it work nicely for us.
More than that it’s not so important unless one needs to engage those propensities or
endeavors that varnasrama deals with. So in other words, if you are going to deal with
something mundane then better deal with it according to varnasrama than not. But in any
case if one is absorbed in the holy name then it doesn’t really matter. But if you are not
absorbed it matters.
Yadava dasa: Of these two which is the best?
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Ananta dasa: He who has more devotion is the best.
That’s the point, whichever you can is going to absorb you more in Krsna that will work.
If all the rules and regulations spin you out and you can’t do that, ok fine, but then absorb
yourself in Krsna. But not to follow these rules and regulations and not to absorb yourself in
Krsna then you are dealing on the mundane platform and you put yourself in an inferior
position.
If neither have any devotion then according to the material point of view the follower
of varnasrama is better because he is pious and the other is an outcaste.
It’s not like you have many options here. It’s not like varnasrama and then kind of
connected, I mean then you have some other system and then you have your outcastes. So
that’s the thing the Western culture is dealing with there is outcastes and then there is us
and then there is that fanatic varnasrama. No, there is varnasrama, there is outcastes. Just
like within varnasrama there will be a hierarchy, within the outcastes they will consider a
hierarchy. First World always considers themselves better then Second, then that better
than Third World. And then everybody is better than Fifth World or something like that.
Like this it all goes. The Christian outcastes always consider themselves better than any
other kind of outcastes. The Jews know they are better than any other kind of outcastes.
And the Moslems are willing to go to war about it because they are better because of any
other kind of outcastes. So that’s the thing each one has their hierarchy and they are going
to claim that their culture is the best, even though it’s still within the category of outcaste,
it’s not following the varnasrama.
But the point is what makes the Vaisnavism unique it’s the one who has devotion that
actually makes the system work. So it’s not whether you are following the external rules of
one religious system or not, it’s whether you have devotion to God or not. But if you have
devotion to God there must be some way of expressing that, so that should be according to
the direction of the scriptures. But how much detail you are going to get into in non-
devotional activities that’s according to the individual’s ability and their inclination.
So in other words, someone who is material and following varnasrama is superior to
someone who is materialistic and not following varnasrama. But of one who is following
varnasrama or not following varnasrama who is a devotee then the important thing is
devotion.
He who has more devotion is the best. If neither have any devotion then according to
the material point of view the follower of varnasrama is better because he is pious and the
other is an outcaste.
Pious because it’s God’s laws though he doesn’t attribute it to God and there is no
devotion to God. Outcaste means he has no devotion and he is not following God’s laws. So
that’s a problem.
However, from the spiritual point of view they are both degraded, for neither has any
devotion.
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Because real piety is devotional service. So devotional service that’s real piety. Not being
a devotee that’s impious. Then of the impious those who follow the varnasrama system are
considered more pious and those who don’t are less pious. In other words, within impiety
one is more pious and one is less pious. So therefore within impiety then you can say your
impersonalist is more pious than your karma-kandi who is more pious than someone who
doesn’t even follow the injunctions.
It’s like in garbage you make distinction, ok, there is recyclable garbage and non-
recycable garbage, but it’s all garbage. That’s the point. It’s still garbage, but you can make
distinction. So the recyclable is better than the non, why? Because it’s more in line with
God’s laws. But it’s still garbage. So material life is garbage. But within material life that
which follows varnasrama is more natural garbage. While that which is not following
varnasrama is generally more man-made or artificial garbage. So there is God-authorized
garbage and not God-authorized garbage. Actually interesting how well the analogy fits.
Yadava dasa: Is a householder devotee allowed to wear the garments of a renunciant?
Ananta dasa: No, for he cheats himself and he cheats the world also. Those are his two
faults.
He cheats himself and he cheats the world, so those are the faults. He is not saying that
the other thing is a fault. It’s said he is cheating himself is a fault. Somebody makes money.
So making money is not a problem. But if he does it by cheating, then that’s a problem. So
they are distinguishing here even that is he cheats himself, he cheats the world also, that’s
the faults.
If a householder wears a kaupina and the other garments of renunciant then that
householder mocks and insults the true renunciants.
This kaupina here means that which is installed because Prabhupada would call them
brahmana underwear. Because in India all the brahmanas wear them, all the pujaris, the
grhasthas. Because the pujaris are always grhasthas they wear them. That’s just Vedic
underwear. So here it means when it says the kaupina it means that it’s installed.
Yadava dasa: O saintly babaji, do the scriptures describe how one should accept the
garments of a renunciant?
Ananta dasa: Not very specifically. People of every caste may become Vaisnavas.
However, in the opinion of the scriptures, none but the brahmanas may accept sannyasa.
Because in your traditional form then it’s brahmanas will accept all fours up to sannyasa,
ksatriyas up to vanaprastha, the vaisyas up to grhastha, that means brahmacari and grhastha,
and sudras are always grhastha. It’s just when they are young they are not married, and
when they are older they are married. That also answers the question of the bachelor. In the
Vedic system it’s just you are just an unmarried grhastha. You just haven’t found someone to
marry you, or you are too young, or you are in training, or whatever it is like that. So the
brahmana then.
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So devotees are brahmanas, so from that platform then they can accept, because only
brahmanas can accept. But it’s as a devotee that they are qualified as brahmanas. So it’s only
by devotion that they would be qualified to remain as a sannyasi. While someone who is
materially qualified as a brahmana they may take sannyasa and not be a devotee and they
may be a good sannyasi, but as we said before, it’s still mundane.
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.11.35) after describing the features of the different castes,
Narada Muni explains:
"If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described
above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those
symptoms of classification."
So that’s daivi-varnasrama, it doesn’t matter the birth, whatever symptom you have
that’s what you go by.
This verse means, "A person's caste is determined by his personal characteristics, and
they were previously described. Thus the scriptures declare that a person born in a non
brahmana family should be considered a brahmana if he is seen to have the qualities of a
brahmana, and that such a brahmana may become qualified to accept sannyasa. This is the
opinion of all the scriptures. From the spiritual point of view, this is proved. Still, they who
look at things from the material point of view do not accept it.
There is where you get your asuric-varnasrama because they are not accepting this
principle. So therefore it’s by birth and these kind of things. It’s just they are absorbed
simply in the karma-kanda, jnana-kanda aspects, karma and jnana is their only interest
here. And the whole system is very fixed is very external. The element of developing it
internally just doesn’t exist, therefore it’s asuric, because it just stays within the material
absorption. But daivi-varnasrama is designed that one may start in the external but one is
trying to move to the internal. One is trying to bring it to seeing everything connected to
Krsna, though one starts with what one sees in the world, what one interacts within the
world, one’s values in the world, and then from there he brings it inside and then becomes
absorbed.
Devotee (1): Maharaja, is it correct to think that a person who is born as a brahmana his
samskaras are very deep of…
Maharaja: If he acts like a brahmana. Otherwise if he doesn’t act like one even he is born in
the family then.
Devotee (1): Isn’t it that just temporary, short time he has got some bad association and so it
affects that thought, but underneath the samskaras are very deep of being a brahmana.
Maharaja: Generally it’s the other way round. Generally you see that person who is born in
an outcaste family or low-grade family but inherently or naturally has the qualities of a
brahmana for him the samskaras are deep, but there is some kind of mental offence is there.
In other words, for cultivating impure thoughts or maintaining impure thoughts then
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someone of great qualification will be born in a low-class family, that’s a reaction, that’s
what Manu mentions. So therefore you see devotees you are just so obviously brahminical,
there was some mental offence, some mundane aspect that was there in the mind that had
enough prominence that they didn’t take birth in the brahmana family where they would
naturally be, they took birth in a low-class family.
Devotee (1): …the other way around.
Maharaja: The other way around is it’s just like what’s the difference between a mudha and
a naradhama? Mudha is like a donkey, a mule. But the naradhama is said to be the lowest of
man. So how do you get lower than a mudha?
Devotee (1): I am forgetting the example that Prabhupada used for naradhama.
Maharaja: Like live in the basement or something.
Devotee (2): They already had Krsna consciousness and they rejected it.
Maharaja: Yes, in other words, one who has the opportunity for dynamic advancement and
rejects it. Rejects it means I don’t mean you have someone who maybe the came in contact
and then they are distracted by the material energy. Because they don’t feel bad about, they
have just forgotten about it. They came to the ratha-yatra, they are just walking down the
street, come to the ratha-yatra, just bump into the devotees, go along, take some prasada,
hear the lecture, the kirtana, great, this and that, then they go home and their girlfriend
calls him up and says I am feeling lonely, can you come over? And then he completely
forgets about the devotees. So that’s not a naradhama, that’s someone who has done pious
activities.
A naradhama is he sees has the opportunity and rejects it and just says this is not good,
and tells this is not good, these guys are crazy. Not just he has come in contact this and that
and then slowly slowly by always thinking about the devotees he becomes one. I have heard
of that also.
One devotee was telling me that his friend liked going to the temple and taking prasada
and all that. He is just kind of like pleasantly attracted, likes to go around, but not so
committed. So he dragged this person with him to the temple. He didn’t like it, he didn’t
like the devotees, he didn’t like nothing. But they take prasada and all that. And he had
nothing good to say about the devotees, but every week for nine weeks they came and took
prasada. After the ninth week he moved in the temple and shaved up. So that’s still not
naradhama. This is like committed against it. Here it’s just a, like the girls says the guy is a
real dweeb and this and that and saying so many things like that, but actually she likes him.
Devotee (3): So I think here it will be discussed that in Kali-yuga the demons take birth in
brahmana family specifically, would it be something specific where demons take birth or in
other families they also take birth.
Maharaja: Means the brahmanas are trying to, the demons because prestige is very
important to them, so you take birth in a brahmana family and automatically you are
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respectable. And so they themselves have to maintain that. Because otherwise others will do
it out of piety because the scriptures say but it’s not that they are inspired by it. But it makes
them feel if you respect somebody, means in other words the etiquette, the external
etiquette and give it charity and like that. Someone likes to be a brahmana even though
they are not. They are dressed as one. In other words, they take that much effort to dress as
one. They try to present themselves. Then by dealing properly with them you get some
benefit. You get double the result of if you are dealing with a gross materialist. But it’s still
not enough. In other words, one won’t accept them as a priest or anybody like that, that
kind of thing. This is just a matter of respect and giving donations and that. One would
generally avoid but if they have come then you might something like some interaction may
be there.
So it means all of this we see is on mentality, that’s the point, we see this fine point of
that, in other words, he was saying before about the householder devotee who is absorbed in
the, you get the idea here that he is living as a grhastha though he is dressing as a
renunciate. And so for his collection he is going out and collecting as a renunciate but
actually he is living the lifestyle of a grhastha. So then there he is cheating himself, he
cheats others, because he doesn’t have anything good to say about it. And it says like this,
because he is not following, so he is breaking the rules of varnasrama because he is claiming
to be within it. But there are those who are not really specifically following varnasrama.
Like for the devotees in general then they’ll follow to some degree the asrama aspect but not
the varna aspect or these kind of things, it’s not necessarily as clear. But if the devotional
element is strong then it still works.
Devotee (2): This isn’t talking about…?
Maharaja: I kind of get the idea not, because otherwise here he is saying because then if he is
not following then one becomes an outcaste. But one can be an outcaste and be a nice
devotee, so it depends on the devotion. So you get the idea that they have accepted the
renounced order, but they are living as a grhastha, so it’s not clear whether they are dressing
as one or not. But he said vantashi, you get the element that he is not necessarily dressed as
a sannyasi.
Devotee (2): …
Maharaja: He may be, but at the same time he may not be. Because vantashi generally refers
to someone who has taken up the lifestyle of a grhastha. So they would dress and do
everything as one. But you kind of get the element it’s on the platform of following the rules
and regulations then that would be his position, but the overriding thing is who has more
devotion. So if that devotion is there then that overrides the other thing. So just like
someone is not following varnasrama the devotion overrides that. Like I heard of there is
one I think it’s somewhere in England or the British Isles somewhere, then there is a priest
some variety of I don’t know what denomination. But he is a, what do you call it when they
are initiated priest? Meaning that they are considered part of the system, they are an
authorized.
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Devotee (4): Ordained.
Maharaja: Ordained, yes. He is an ordained priest. But he chants 16 rounds, reads
Prabhupada’s books and everything like that. And he still does all the rituals that he does in
his tradition. He leads whatever the ceremonies and dresses and this and that, but he chants
16 rounds and reads Prabhupada’s books. He is very favorable. So here is the system where
the devotion makes it work. So the devotion makes it work. At some point one might find
that it’s more favorable personally to use different rituals and this and that, but whatever it
is that’s a secondary thing, the prominent thing is the devotion. That will be what is
prominent in his life. That will be his inspiration, what inspires him in his day to day
activities. That doesn’t mean everyone will go out and become an ordained priest or
something else.
But I know one devotee, I forget what was the denomination but that particular church
didn’t have a priest but there was a community, I guess their priest had left or died or
something, they had a community and they needed one to do their certain rituals and stuff
like that. So somehow or another and it was presented they would give this and that, they
get paid and so many things like that, whatever was the church was affording. And one
devotee actually took the job. It must have been one of the, some variety of Protestant,
because very simple, no rituals, it was definitely not Catholicism or something. So very
simple, he does all the funeral ceremonies and all this and that. Actually they really
appreciate his take because he can give more depth on what happens to the soul after death
and this and that. So they actually appreciate somehow or another. So for him it’s a job.
Devotee (5): Discussing this quality of devotion in connection with varnasrama-dharma.
Maharaja: Which of devotion?
Devotee (5): The quality of devotion. We see the story of this Lahiri Mahasaya and this
Madhava dasa who fell away from his asrama associating with the wife. It seems like
everybody rejected him and then Lahiri Mahasaya also left. So it was fully quite bewildering
why in this case devotees would leave.
Maharaja: Why would they leave, it’s a matter of what kind of lifestyle it is. A grhastha is
living with a wife in a proper way. Here is living with woman they are not married.
Devotee (5): It was his former wife.
Maharaja: Yes, but it’s somehow or another, you don’t get the idea that, what is the basis for
them living together? What is the basis of him living with his previous wife? It may take like
a long shot, some kind of guess maybe.
Devotee (5): Sex attraction.
Maharaja: Ok, so then that’s the basis for them to be together. So where is the devotional
element there? Grhastha means the devotional service is the center of attention. Sex life
may be part of that, but it’s a circle around, it’s not the center, it’s not what brings them
together. So grhastha means the center is it’s an asrama for performing devotional service.
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So therefore they are bringing together then it has that mentality is wrong, its basis is
wrong. That’s why all these different things are there so one can start to see what appears to
be contradictory is not because it’s consistent in it’s always looking at what’s the mentality.
And also it’s not sure that he may be presenting himself in one way, it’s not that he is
presenting himself as a grhastha, he is presenting himself as one of this kind of like not so
much involved in the varnasrama and out there hearing and chanting. While he presents
himself as a grhastha then there is not a problem. Because it’s not that specifically from
what I understand he took sannyasa. He just he left his wife and came over there and sitting
down with the others and chanting, and then his wife would come and then this and that
and they get involved. It was like he is presenting himself one way, but his wife would come
there and go away. It wasn’t that they were.
Devotee (5): He would not openly admit it.
Maharaja: Yes, he wasn’t openly saying that this is.
Yadava dasa: Candi dasa, they certainly answered your question.
Candi dasa: Of all the instructions that came from the saintly and honorable babaji's
mouth, this much I understand: The individual soul is eternally the servant of Lord Krsna.
Forgetting Krsna, the soul takes shelter of a material body and, pushed by maya's modes of
nature, he experiences material happiness and distress. The result of his material activities is
that he must wear around his neck a garland of birth, death, old age, and disease. Sometimes
he is born in an exalted situation and sometimes in a lowly situation. He takes birth after
birth, and in each birth he has a new conception of who he is. As he stays in a fragile
material body that may be torn apart at any moment, hunger, thirst, and other prompting
push him to act in various ways. Unable to attain what he wishes, he is troubled in many
ways in this world. His material body grows old and torments him in many ways. Again and
again quarreling with wife and children, he is pushed so far that sometimes he even commits
suicide. To get money he sometimes commits many sins. He suffers punishment from the
king, the insults of his neighbors, and great variety of other troubles. He is separated from
his loved ones, he loses his wealth, and he is robbed by thieves. Again and again he suffers
many troubles. When he grows old his relatives refuse to care for him. This makes him suffer
greatly. His old body is troubled by mucus, rheumatism and a host of other troubles. Finally
he dies. Then he is again pushed into a mother's womb. Still, as long as he is alive in that
material body, lust, anger, greed, delusion, pride and envy remain very powerful and they
refuse to give any place to intelligence. That is life in the material world. Now I know the
meaning of the phrase "the material world". Again and again I offer my dandavat obeisances
to the saintly babaji. It is the Vaisnavas who are the true spiritual teachers of the world. By
the mercy of the Vaisnavas I have learned the truth about the material world.
Because Candi dasa wanted to know what’s the material world. So he just summed up
there that’s the material world, because that’s what happens in reality. People make their
plans, they are trying for something else, but this is what goes on.
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After hearing the instructions of Ananta dasa Babaji, all the Vaisnavas called out, "Well
done!" and began to chant the holy names of Lord Hari. Gradually may Vaisnavas gathered
there. Then Lahiri Mahasaya sang a song he wrote:
"Fallen into the horrible material world, a person suffers without end. Still, if he
associates with devotees and worships Lord Hari, a person will make his sufferings come to
an end.
"The heart burns in the fire of sense gratification. The fire burns more and more.
Avoiding offenses, chant the holy names of Lord Krsna. That will pour water on the fire.
"He who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda is my
shelter in life and death. Thus says Kalidasa."
As these words were sung, Candi dasa began to dance with great joy. He happily rolled
in the dust that has been touched by the Vaisnava babajis' feet. He wept. Everyone said,
"Candi dasa has become very fortunate."
After some time Yadava dasa Babaji said, "Come, Candi dasa, now we must cross the
river." Candi dasa joked, "If you carry me across, I will cross." After offering dandavat
obeisances to Pradyumna-kunja, the two of them left. There they saw Damayanti. Again
and again offering dandavat obeisances, she said, "Alas, Why did I take birth as a woman? If
I had taken birth as a man I could have easily entered this forest grove, seen the saintly
devotees, touched the dust from their feet, and made my life a great success. Birth after birth
I will serve the Vaisnavas in Sri Navadvipa. In that way I will pass my days."
Then Yadava dasa said, "Ah! Godruma is a very sacred place. Simply by entering this
place, a soul attains pure devotion. This Godruma is the pastime place of the master of our
lives: Lord Caitanya, the son of Saci. It is identical with holy Vrndavana, the village of
cowherds. Understanding this truth, Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati wrote the following
prayer (Sri Navadvipa-sataka 36):
"Fools, the path of the world and the Vedas will bring you only trouble! Give up
everything and make yourself a leaf-hut in Sri Godruma in Gauda-desa!"
The three of them crossed the Ganga and returned to Kuliya-grama. From that day
forward Candi dasa and his wife Damayanti became wonderful Vaisnavas. Understanding
the truth about them, the illusory material world no longer touched them. Service to
Vaisnavas, continual chanting of the holy name of Lord Krsna, and mercy to all living
entities were the ornaments they wore. Glorious became that merchant couple! Glorious is
the mercy of the Vaisnavas! Glorious is the holy name of Lord Hari! Glorious is the land of
Sri Navadvipa!
So that ends that chapter.
Chapter Eight
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Eternal Religion and Ordinary Activities
Nitya-dharma o vyavahar
Means that situation there where all the babajis were it’s like the brahmacari-asrama
and they are performing the activities, so the ladies didn’t go inside there. But it’s not that
they didn’t associate with the Vaisnavas, otherwise Yadava dasa was a babaji, but he went
with Candi dasa and his wife, they went back to where they were staying and they are
interacting. So it’s just there is that situation where the brahmacaris are all together and so
then that then the ladies are not involved.
One afternoon, after honoring prasada, the Vaisnavas of Sri Godruma gathered in a
secluded forest grove on the Northeast side of Sri Gaura Lake. There Lahiri Mahasaya sang
a song that awakened in them the ecstatic love of Vraja.
Looks like we continue tomorrow with the new chapter. Ok, so this will be about how
the sanantana-dharma connects with regular ordinary activities, like day to day stuff. (end
of lecture) (end)
May 11, 2010

Maharaja:
Chapter Eight
Eternal Religion and Ordinary Activities
Nitya-dharma o vyavahar
One afternoon, after honoring prasada, the Vaisnavas of Sri Godruma gathered in a
secluded forest grove on the Northeast side of Sri Gaura Lake. There Lahiri Mahasaya sang
a song that awakened in them the ecstatic love of Vraja. He sang:
"How many pastimes did Lord Caitanya enjoy here with Advaita and the other
devotees? Here He chanted the names of Lord Krsna and danced. As Lord Krsna rescued
Kaliya, here our Lord rescued a crocodile."
When the song was ended the Vaisnavas discussed the similar natures of Lord Krsna’s
and Lord Caitanya's pastimes. Then two or four Vaisnavas from Baragachi came there. They
offered dandavat obeisances, first to Gaura lake and then to the Vaisnavas. The Vaisnavas
honored them and offered sitting places. In that secluded grove was an old banyan tree.
Around its roots the Vaisnavas had built a stone platform. They all informed the visitors
from Baragachi that the tree was honored with the name Nitai-bata (Lord Nityananda's
banyan tree), for Lord Nityananda liked to sit under it.
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Sitting under Lord Nityananda's banyan tree, the Vaisnavas talked about spiritual life.
Among the Vaisnavas from Baragachi was a youth who wanted to ask a question. He
suddenly said, "I want to ask a question. Someone please answer it and make me happy."
In that secluded grove lived Hari dasa Babaji, who was a very learned scholar. He almost
never left that place. He was almost a hundred years old. On some rare occasions he would
go to Pradyumna-kunja and meet with the paramahamsa babaji. He had personally seen
Lord Nityananda sitting under that banyan tree. He had one desire. He wished that when
he left his body it would be at that place. He said, "Son, now that the paramahamsa babaji's
associates have assembled here, why should you worry about the answer to your question?"
Then the Vaisnava from Baragachi asked his question. "The Vaisnava religion is the
eternal religion. How should a person who has taken shelter of the Vaisnava religion act in
relation to others. I wish to understand this very thoroughly."
In other words, someone is practicing Vaisnavism, how does he deal with other people?
Because you’d have all varieties of people in the world. How does he deal with them? What
would be the appropriate behavior?
Glancing for a moment at saintly Vaisnava dasa Babaji, Hari dasa Babaji said, "O
Vaisnava dasa, nowadays no one in Bengal is learned and devoted like you. You should
answer this question. You had the association of Srila Sarasvati Goswami and you were
personally taught by the paramahamsa babaji. You are thus very fortunate. You have
certainly attained the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu."
Saintly Vaisnava dasa Babaji humbly said, "O great soul, you personally saw Lord
Nityananda, who is an incarnation of Lord Balarama. In the assembly of many great souls
you taught many students. Please be merciful and give some instruction to us.” All the
Vaisnavas there begged Hari dasa Babaji to answer the question. The babaji at last agreed.
So he is saying here because he was very educated, remember he was in Varanasi
trained, so he knew all their scriptures, he knew all the logic and argument all these
different things, and he was personally taught by the Paramahamsa Babaji, so this then was
a very, very good position. And we see through most of the other chapters he is the one that
is speaking, because he is so learned. But we also see here that he brings up the point that
Hari dasa Babaji that he saw Lord Nityananda Prabhu personally and he has taught many,
many people, so then he is in a position better. But instead of saying, Hari dasa says you
answer the question, but he is the senior man. Now Vaisnava dasa doesn’t say, no, no, no, I
am not so qualified, you answer the question. No, no, no, you answer, it wasn’t one of these
kind of things. It was that he says you answer the question, but Vaisnava dasa didn’t say you
answer the question. He said since you are the seniormost, please be merciful and give some
instructions to all of us. So it wasn’t that you do it. No, no, no, you do it. No, no, no, you do
it. It wasn’t one of that kind of thing. It’s a matter of greater, you please benefit us all. So it’s
slightly different. Because otherwise then it’s you are telling him to do it. In one sense then
you are in a senior position. Unless you say, oh no, I am not qualified to answer the
question, but you, you are so, then it’s like that. You can take that approach also. But here
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he used the, but you are the seniormost, so you please instruct us all. So then it’s not a
matter of just answering this young Vaisnava’s question, it’s a matter of everybody getting
benefit from the instruction.
After first offering dandavat obeisances to Lord Nityananda under that banyan tree, the
saintly babaji began to speak.
"Addressing them all as "servant of Lord Krsna", I offer my obeisances to every soul in
this material world. It is said (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 6.85):
"Some accept Him whereas others do not, yet everyone is Lord Krsna's servant."
"I place upon my head these words of the saintly devotees. Although every soul is by
nature a perfect servant of Lord Krsna, some souls, because of ignorance of bewilderment, do
not accept that they are His servant. They are one group. Other souls, however, do accept
that they are His servants. They are another group. Thus, in this material world the souls
may be divided into two groups: 1. those who turn away from Lord Krsna, and 2. those who
are eager to approach Lord Krsna.
Because his question was how do you interact with others. It wasn’t specific. So he just
said you do you interact with others. So then here he is establishing those others that you
are interacting with are going to be living entities. And all the living entities that you will
find here are souls, they are jivas. So then it’s to make this approach is very good. We see
you step back from it and take the broader picture then bring it down. Otherwise it’s just
you talk about this and that. So ok, what’s initiation, what’s reinitiation, what’s this? They
just talk, something wrong here, but what’s reinitiation. But there is no discussion what
initiation is and there is no discussion how does initiation fit into the whole Vaisnava
culture. How does that make the connection with Krsna, what’s the background behind it?
If that’s there then question becomes very easy. Because you get an answer to a question, you
should be able to use it. If you can’t use it then it doesn’t have much meaning to you. It
sounds nice, it was inspiring to hear, but you should be able to use it. If you can’t use it then
not so important.
So here if you understand the background where it’s coming then there is more of a
clear chance. Because otherwise we say, ok, those are devotees you deal like this, those who
are not devotees you deal like that. But someone may ask but why do we deal differently?
The devotees are just like everybody else or what’s going on? Or those who are not devotees
why should we be nice to them? Anything like this. But if it’s pointed out, no, all living
entities are parts and parcels of Krsna, they are all His eternal servants, yes, so he says every
soul is by nature a perfect servant. It doesn’t mean that they are acting in that capacity. So
therefore of all them then one group surrenders to Krsna, is moving towards Him, one group
doesn’t.
In the material world most of the souls prefer to turn away from Lord Krsna. Many of
these souls do not accept any religion. There is no need to say much about these persons.
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They have no idea what should and what should not be done. For them their own personal
happiness is the be-all-and-end-all of their lives.
So it’s just whatever they feel that’s what is done. Nothing else. It’s not regulated by
anything else. Whatever they personally feel, whatever they personally accept, they follow.
Let’s say they accept one social norm, they accept, ok, your hair is supposed to be green and
spiked. Ok, so everybody else has something like that, some variety of color and everything
like that. It’s got to be spiked though. Because if it’s not spiked then they might think you
are not a punk, they might think you are an emo (?) or something and God forbid. So
therefore that’s accepted, you just do that. But then something else like your parents tell you
something to do, then it’s like why do I have to do listen to them, why this, why am I being
unfairly held to this rigid law that you have to listen to your parents? So it’s just a matter of
what they accept and don’t accept. Why does he have to fit into this other group? So it’s just
a matter of whatever they feel like that’s what they do.
Their religion is whatever they feel like. It’s actually a religion. Because religion means
your nature. So their nature then this is how they act. They have this understanding, so
therefore they act in that way. Of course, their concept of their religion and what is the
actual nature of them as a living entity that doesn’t match, because they are eternally
servants of Krsna. So it will have a problem. There’ll be an inconsistency. Therefore
applying their particular understanding into all situations won’t work because they are not
accepting God. They are not accepting a higher authority. So it’s just what they feel like. So
today they feel like this, but tomorrow they don’t. One day they are in college or outside this
big institutional building like that with their posters and yelling and chanting their slogans
and throwing bottles and stuff like that. You come back ten years later and they are actually
in that building working. Why? Because they got a family, they got to take care, they got to
be practical. So it’s just whatever they feel like. It’s not dictated by anything higher.
Persons who accept religion have an idea of what should be done.
Because then there is some kind of an idea to some degree, there is standards. But even
that depending upon what religion they are accepting there is more or less definitions of
standards. So then it may leave it more up to you to choose what you like or not. It’s just like
what is Christian food? What is good upstanding religious Christian food?
Devotee (1): Bacon.
Maharaja: Bacon, as in Sir Thomas?
Devotee (2): They eat bread which is the flesh of Christ and wine which is his blood.
Maharaja: Yes, but they don’t eat that all day. But not all Christians. Because that’s
Communion. So only up to basically up to the Catholics. The Protestants don’t accept that.
Some of them do, I think the Anglicans do. Because Anglicans are basically Catholicism
without a pope, that’s basically what they are. It’s like Henry VIII is the pope. But otherwise
then that even that is a question amongst Christians. Do you accept prasada or not? That
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makes or breaks their whole religion. We eat prasada. We don’t eat prasada. So it’s a
completely different religion.
Yeah, hey, this is an amazing thing, I was going to say the only restriction they have is
you can’t eat humans. But they will eat the body of Christ and drink his blood. Somehow or
another I don’t quite, not logical. That’s the only restriction. The Jews you can’t eat pigs,
you can’t eat crustations, or anything that it has a shell outside and it’s soft inside. If it has
bones you can eat it, but if it has a shell you can’t eat it. So they don’t eat lobsters and that
kind of stuff. So they have some more restrictions. So if it’s kosher then you can say it’s
Jewish food, or halal that’s Islamic food.
So each religion has more of a definition or less of a definition. But the main thing is be
good be nice, those are there. So as long as you can be good be nice and do this then.
Persons who accept religion have an idea of what should be done.
Depending upon their religion.
For their benefit, the great Vaisnava Manu has written (Sri Manu-samhita 6.92):
"The ten features of religious life are:
This is the last verses, this is the, that’s nice it’s here, the tenfold law, so it’s called,
Manu gave this. So anyone following the Vedic culture follows these ten. And then lateron
he’ll give something of these five are prominent.
1. patience, 2. forgiveness, 3. self-control, 4. honesty, 5. cleanliness, 6. sense-control, 7.
knowledge, 8. wisdom, 9. truthfulness and 10. freedom from anger."
"Among these, six are features that benefit the performer. They are: 1. patience, 2. self-
control, 3. cleanliness, 4. sense-control, 5. knowledge and 6. wisdom. The remaining four are
done for the benefit of others. They are: 1. patience, 2. honesty, 3. truthfulness, and 4.
freedom from anger.
It’s an interesting breakup. So he has given these, so these will be, what you do and not
do is based on these.
Devotee (3): Maharaja, can you elaborate on the difference between honesty and
truthfulness?
Maharaja: Honesty means you are being non-duplicitous about your interaction or your
dealings. According to your actual position you are acting. You are not so smart, you do
something that is your capablility, you don’t present yourself as more smart or stuff like that.
Truthfulness is then specifically meaning it’s connected to God, that would be its
ultimate. But otherwise in other words, it’s according to God consciousness, according to
guru, sadhu, and sastra, that’s truthfulness. And then where it’s appropriate then it may also
be correct according to facts and figures. It’s just like the parent is supposed to take care of
the child and look after their best interest. The child being sick then one is supposed to
make them healthy. So they are going to get healthy through medicine. Now you bring the
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medicine, the child doesn’t want to take medicine because it may not taste good. No, I don’t
want to take it doesn’t taste good. And then the parent says, no, no, it’s very nice, uhm yam
yam yeah, very nice. So then one could say, well, that’s lying. But what is the truth? The
truth is that the relationship is that a parent takes care of the kid. The truth is not facts. If
the parent goes, yeah, it’s one of the most disgusting medicines I have ever taken but it’s
good for you if you take it. The kid will be really inspired with that. Teenager maybe, but a
little kid not too much, they just probably take it because they are so shocked that you were
so blunt. Ok, ok. Because it says it’s benefiting others.
Devotee (4): Maharaja, the difference between self-control and sense control?
Maharaja: Self-control means you only do activities you should be doing according to your
position, according to the time, place, and circumstance. Sense control is proper
engagement of the senses. Let us say you do someone else’s duty that is not yours. You may
be sense controlled while you do it but you are not self-controlled.
Devotee (3): …honesty…
Maharaja: Everything is connected. It’s just like here is there a crack there? Is that different
from the rock? But can you say that this crack is exactly the same as this smooth place? Yes,
so it’s one thing, it’s this human etiquette, human behavior. So then it has ten aspects. So all
these aspects are going to be connected, interrelated. Means I’ll try to get the quote, the
other quote. Because he gives five other points later. This is end of the Sixth Chapter. So
this is the end of asrama-dharma. So he summarizes asrama-dharma by saying that one who
follows this then follows. Because all the other rules in asrama-dharma are to obtain this,
either to obtain this or maintain this. Means someone who has these qualities would act
according to these rules. By following these rules you have to apply these qualities.
Just like the grhastha the man, he has to respect everybody in the family. Those who are
senior to him, those who are equal, those who are junior, he has to deal with them all
properly. To do that then there must be patience, there must be honesty, truthfulness,
freedom from anger, all these things have to be there, otherwise he can’t do that. But
someone who has these qualities they would naturally act like that with family members.
So in other words, if you don’t have the quality. By following the form it’s for the
purpose of developing the quality. And if you have the quality the form is how you are going
to express that quality.
Devotional service to Lord Hari is not clearly mentioned in this list of ten features.
Not clearly, it’s there because otherwise how do you have those qualities? What’s real
truth and all that?
These ten features of religious life are taught here for the benefit of ordinary people.
Because for devotees it will be taught in connection with devotional service, it will be
part of the devotional etiquette and behavior. So it’s not known as truth or this or that. As
long as it’s not Krsna conscious it’s not connected to Krsna. The presentation that’s there is
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covered by illusion, there is an illusory aspect, the attachment is there. Because just like we
say, oh, you are so attached. Technically you are just saying you are not truthful about the
situation or you are not honest about the situation. But it’s presented in a different way.
Devotee (3): All the qualities are to be practiced but wisdom, this wisdom is something
which is obtained.
Maharaja: Wisdom is obtained, yes, but you only obtain it if you work for it. How do you get
wisdom. According to the system of education, the three stages of education, how do you get
wisdom?
Devotee (3): Application of the knowledge.
Maharaja: Application of the knowledge. So in other words, you get knowledge then you are
going to apply that. To apply that means you have to contemplate it and think, how do I
apply this knowledge in this situation? Then you apply it, and in applying it then you get, by
that practice with time you get realization. In other words, if you just contemplate it you’ll
get understanding. Or if you just practice it you’ll get understanding. But you’ll never get
realization. It’s only when you contemplate it and practice it you get realization.
That’s why many times you find young people are very knowledgeable, very expert in an
area, but it’s old people they have wisdom. Because when they are younger they just do it,
but when they get older they start to think about it. So if you are already contemplating
from the beginning then wisdom is something you can have in a young age. You don’t have
to wait until you are old and wrinkly. But if not then somehow or another wrinkles seem to
do something for the development of wisdom. I am not sure why, but.
Devotee (4): Things don’t go your way when you get older so you have to think about, why
didn’t it work?
Maharaja: Yes, why doesn’t it work, so you think about it, so you get some wisdom.
Devotee (4): When you are young your enthusiasm pushes through everything.
Devotee (3): One friend was telling me that when he was studying philosophy in his
military institution the teacher of philosophy said, there is only thing you need to learn, one
philosophical thing, if you get somewhere think how you get out of it. If you get into
something think how you get out of it.
Maharaja: Oh, in military philosophy.
Devotee (3): Right, so he gave his wisdom. His wisdom was condensed to this point.
Maharaja: All military strategy can come down to if you have a strategy for getting into a
place you should have one for getting out of it also.
Devotee (3): He generalized it for any life situation.
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Maharaja: So you are saying that the 600 who rode into the valley of death hadn’t
understood this wisdom? How come it’s always these guys are always the numbers? Or the
300? They had a plan to get in but they didn’t have a plan to get out.
Devotee (3): Abhimanyu had the same problem.
Maharaja: Yes, he had the same problem also. He knew how to get in but not to get out. So
we can see there have been many military failures due to not applying this principle.
It cannot be said that by faithfully following the teaching of this verse one will attain
perfect auspiciousness, for Sri Visnu-dharmottara Purana explains:
"To live for five days as a devotee of Lord Visnu is far better than to live for a thousand
kalpas as a person who has no devotion for Lord Kesava."
So he is saying here that by practicing these things it’s not that that will give you
devotion. It’s always important to note devotion does not come from any material
arrangement. Devotion comes from itself. You have to want that, you have to make that
endeavor. So basically it comes from good association. You have good association it comes.
You don’t have good association it doesn’t come. That’s why the association of devotees is so
important.
Here but a devotee will have these ten qualities. That’s why it becomes hard, otherwise
why is this the first thing he says? He has already said that, ok, for the non-devotees then we
are not so worried, and then he is saying like this, ok, those who are non-devotees would
approach it in this way and that’s all the further it would be. Those qualities would stand on
their own. Oh, you have to be honest, we are devotees you must be honest, we must be
straight-forward and truthful. Who said? Why? And if you ask them they won’t say Manu
said. Who said? You learned it from your mother, you read it on the news, you read it in
Reader’s Digest or in Time Magazine, in an editorial, all your friends when they would get
together and have a party and then they would talk about this. Where did it come from?
That’s the point, it says it’s just unspoken. That’s why I am saying it’s dogma, if you ask
why? They have no answer, it’s not something to discuss, it’s dogma. And who are we
quoting here? Someone who consider themselves dogmatic? No, the person who think they
are the complete opposite they are the real liberal broad-thinking worried about everybody
person. On one leve they are, but on another level why do you have to be like that? They are
dogmatic about that. Because they haven’t thought, they don’t know, they don’t know
where it comes from. It’s just a nice thing, it’s just obvious that if you cooperate together
there is less problem and more general prosperity than if you work on your own and
everybody fights it out amongst themselves.
So therefore the basis of it is not actually religious, it’s not spiritual, it’s not devotional,
it’s economic. The concept of being nice to others and working together cooperately, what
does it produce?
Devotee (3): Artha.
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Maharaja: Yes, artha, a common prosperity. They are not worried about the elevation of the
soul. They are not worried about knowledge, by we are cooperating together then we’ll have
real understanding and knowledge, that’s not. No, everybody will be happy, everybody will
be nice, everybody will get what they need, relationships will go on nicely. Have you heard
any words here so far that have been for spiritual development or understanding? No, so
that’s the weakness to these things, they don’t have a basis. So here at least you can say, ok,
this is materialistic but it has a basis in religion. Because here when they are saying religion
he goes to actual religion, God-given religion that has a form that is coming down it’s
consistent with the laws of nature. So that’s important.
So devotees because they are in line with God and God has made the creation, so the
rules of religion like this these qualities are automatically practiced by those who worship
God.
"Those who are not devotees of Lord Krsna cannot be said even to be human beings.
Those who are not devotees are all counted as animals walking on two legs. It is said
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.19):
Remember this guy is 100 years old, so he can tell us whatever he likes, and he has seen
Lord Nityananda. Or let’s say the other way, he has seen Lord Nityananda and he is 100
years old.
"Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the
transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna, the deliverer from evils."
So they praise those men who aren’t interested in transcendental.
"Here the question is not what these persons should or should not do. The question is
only how should persons who have taken shelter of the path of devotional service act in
relation to these persons.
So we are not discussing how they should behave, because that’s of no real concern to us.
We are not concerned, oh, they should all follow varnasrama. That’s nice, then they’ll be
pious basically non-devotees. But it doesn’t actually improve the situation. So he is pointing
out here the question is not that how people should behave in general. It’s how the devotees
behave in connection with these people, with the idea, of course, one, it’s just a general
thing of dealing, but the second will also be how do you associate with them in such a way
that they also understand their position as servant of the Lord, so they take up devotional
process, then they become properly situated as human beings.
So here they are even taking that someone who even though they are following
varnasrama if they are not a devotee they are not human. So when Prabhupada says that
human life begins with varnasrama then that means daivi-varnasrama means where
everything is seen in connection with Krsna.
Of that I will speak. Those who have taken shelter of the path of devotional service may
be divided into three groups: 1. kanistha (neophyte), 2. madhyama (intermediate), and 3.
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uttama (advanced). Although he has taken shelter of the path of devotional service, a
neophyte is not yet a true devotee. He is described in these words (Srimad-Bhagavatam
11.2.47):
"A prakrta, or materialistic devotee, does not purposefully study the sastra and try to
understand the actual standard of pure devotional service. Consequently he does not show
proper respect to advanced devotees.
Uh, that one is painful. Now that will just go by, we have heard that a million times.
Think about it. A materialistic devotee does not purposefully study the sastra, in other words,
they are not trying to study with an idea of understanding that’s going there. They may be
reading, which is good, but they are not trying to actually study it to understand what are
the depths and all the things like that.
He does not try to understand the standard of devotional service. What is the standard?
How does one behave in devotional service? What are the devotional standards? As opposed
to just whatever we are doing or being modern or we are just being practical or yukta-
vairagya and all that kind of stuff. There it’s not connected to what is the standard, they are
not trying to understand. What is the standard of cleanliness, deity worship, cooking for the
Lord, dressing, Vaisnava etiquette, standards of education? These aren’t being discussed.
And because of that, he doesn’t study the sastras, try to understand the standards, and
then the next one, Consequently he does not show proper respect to advanced devotees. So
someone who is not showing respect to advanced devotees in principle, then we can see
because they don’t study the sastras, they don’t contemplate, they don’t know the standards.
He may, however, follow the regulative principles learned from his spiritual master or
from his family who worships the Deity. He is to be considered on the material platform,
although he is trying to advance in devotional service. Such a person is a bhakta-praya
(neophyte devotee), or bhaktabhasa, for he is a little enlightened by Vaisnava philosophy."
But we have to remember that such a person is still very special. They are different, they
are devotees. They are different from anyone else. And even their chanting even though it’s
it may be in namabhasa it’s still they are on the liberated platform. So they are far superior
to anyone who is not a devotee even though they may have all wonderful qualities. So that
also has to be remembered.
But we are just putting it in context of, it’s just like you have diamonds and you have
those glass marbles that the kids play games with. Now there is complete difference. Now
but within diamonds then you have qualities, very brilliant, no flaws, not so brilliant, no
flaws, a little bit of flaws, this kind of thing. Even though it may be lesser than the better
one it’s still so much more valuable compared to the marble. And generally we see even in
the sastras it doesn’t even that piece of glass is not in a nice shape, it’s broken, broken
pieces, so if you take that marble and break it and then compare that to a diamond then it’s
like. At least the marble you can play a game with it, but here it’s broken, so it’s useless.
Devotee (4): You cut your hand with.
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Maharaja: Yes, you cut your hand.
So in here you’ll see that this position is given and this is also supported by Visvanatha,
this is where this will be from, but it’s not overly emphasized. It’s only given so that the
neophyte doesn’t get out of hand, that he considers his position is perfect, he is perfect, and
everything he sees is perfect. So it’s simply there. Because otherwise it’s they are technically
speaking not, but the thing is if it’s emphasized so much the materialistic position then your
madhyamas and uttamas wouldn’t associate with him. So that’s just there as a fact so that it
keeps one in a proper perspective or dealing with one’s own. And then the others then they
will associate, so they’ll give that time, that energy to associate, and through that then
they’ll come up. Plus then being in that position knowing that then you know that more
help is needed, therefore the preaching and all this goes on.
"Thus one who faithfully worships the Deity of the Lord but does not faithfully worship
the Lord's devotees, is a materialistic devotee (prakrta-bhakta). The conclusion, then, is that
faith is the seed of devotional service.
So having that faith, so because faith may be disturbed, one may deal in situations and
one’s faith may have been disturbed. But to make a solution based on something that doesn’t
require faith is not a solution. Just like let’s say I ate some food that made me sick and so
now a group of us get together and we have a meeting and we make a resolution that food is
banned, there is no need for food any more. Is that a real resolution? Is that a real
understanding? No, so that’s the whole point, faith is the seed of devotional service. So one
has to make solutions that maintain faith, one has to know what is it one is doing. Faith is
the basis. Without faith it’s not going to, the process won’t work. So that’s why one has to
have.
And we see here that there is therefore this lack of faith goes back to not showing
proper respect to the advanced devotees, because there isn’t that faith, because one doesn’t
actually know what the standards are, one doesn’t know why things are the way they are.
What is the philosophy behind what we do? This is kind of like a vicious circle here.
To faithfully worship the Deity of the Lord is to engage in devotional service. Still, if
one does not also worship the Lord's devotees, his worship is not pure devotional service. His
worship is not devotional service in its complete form. His worship is merely stepping into
the entrance of the house of devotional service.
So you can imagine if stepping into the foyer is so good, imagine what the rest of the
house is like. If we are standing out where all the coats and shoes are and it’s so nice, so you
can imagine.
The scriptures (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.84.13) explain:
"A human being who identifies this body made of three elements with the self, who
considers the by-products of the body to be his kinsmen, who considers the land of birth as
worshippable, and who goes to the place of pilgrimage simply to take bath, rather than meet
men of transcendental knowledge there, is to be considered as an ass or a cow."
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"The meaning is this: Although in the beginning devotional service consists of worship
of the deity and nothing else, and although dry, materialistic logic is not recommended, for
it crushes the heart into powder, it is nevertheless necessary that one understand that the
Deity of the Lord and service to the Deity are pure and spiritual. All living entities in the
material world are spiritual by nature. Among these living entities those who are devotees of
Lord Krsna especially manifest their pure and spiritual nature. The devotee and Lord Krsna
are two different pure and spiritual identities. To understand their true spiritual natures one
must understand the relationships between the material world, the individual soul and Lord
Krsna. A person who understands these relationships and simultaneously worships the Deity
of Lord Krsna and serves the Lord's devotees acts rightly. When one faithfully worships the
spiritual truth in this way, it is said that he has "faith in the scriptures". A person who
worships the deity of the Lord but does not understand the relationships that exist between
the various spiritual entities has only a materialistic kind of faith. Although he stands at the
entrance of the house of devotional service, his service is not pure devotional service. That
is the conclusion. A person thus standing at the entrance to the house of devotional service
is described in these words of the scriptures:
"A person who has accepted a Vaisnava initiation and who devotedly worships Lord
Visnu is said by the wise to be a Vaisnava. All others are not Vaisnavas."
So here he is also making a distinction that generally doesn’t mean much to us but with
time it will mean more and more. So here we are seeing he is saying you are worshiping the
deity, so that is the activity, but even though the materialistic logic is not recommended
because it’s so dry and everything, but it must be applied to some degree to understand
devotional service. One must understand what’s going on in devotional service. So that
means you understand the deity worship is spiritual, they deity is spiritual, worship of the
deity is spiritual, those worshiping the deity is spiritual, and also all living entities are
spiritual even though they may be acting in that capacity or not. So that means you have to
know the Lord, you have to know the living entities, you have to know the material world.
You know these three you actually understand properly relationship. So someone who
worships the deity, associates with the Vaisnavas properly, worships the devotees, and has
this understanding of the philosophy, then they are properly situated. That’s considered the
proper devotional standard. That’s a Vaisnava.
Devotee (4): Sometimes at least myself sometimes I think, oh, this doesn’t apply, it’s hard to
apply this kanistha definition because we may not do so much deity worship. Just when you
are speaking then I was thinking something occurred to me, is this right that principle may
be not necessarily worshiping the deity but maybe some service to do with that matter, you
are making something or putting this from here to there, something related to service. Is
that?
Maharaja: Can, I mean that will be part of it.
Devotee (4): Compare that to…the devotees, that’s a different thing.
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Maharaja: Different, I mean on the element of just on deity worship. Let us start off with on
the first principle of deity worship I’ll describe some major elements. And then after
describing them you tell me if being not a pujari if you are involved in any of these.
So deity worship is described in Pancaratra. So the Pancaratra is the authority for that.
So Pancaratra then it will describe these things. We are taking from discussion of Lord
Caitanya and then combining that with, it’s based on the discussion of Lord Caitanya and
then taking from specifics where Prabhupada gives reference to this thing.
The first thing is upon waking up in the morning the first thing you do is chant Hare
Krsna, remember the Lord. Then you offer obeisances to the spiritual master. Then you fix
your bed. Then you’ll get up, go and use the toilet, clean yourself properly after using the
toilet. Then brush your teeth, take your bath, put on tilaka, wear neck beads, sikha,
brahmana thread, wear the appropriate clothing, chant Gayatri, clean the place where you
stay, clean the clothes. Go to the temple, enter the temple, make some sound, and offer
obeisances. Observe the mangala-aratika, worship tulasi, worship the spiritual master, chant
japa, study the scriptures, deal with guests, do service to the dhama like cleaning, things like
this. Honor caranamrta, flowers offer to the deity, circumambulate the deity,
Devotee (5): Japa.
Maharaja: Yeah, japa, I mentioned japa.
Devotee (5): The first thing when you get up is japa.
Maharaja: Means you say something remember the Lord so that’s the connection. It’s not a
matter of you are chanting your japa. It’s a matter of that you are saying the Lord’s name
when you wake up, because that breaks the ignorance, brings you, the first thing you think
of is Krsna.
So did any of that in any way, shape, or form wildly at the most extreme stretches of the
imagination connect with your life possibly on a daily basis?
Devotee (4): Some of them.
Maharaja: Some of them. You don’t get up in the morning? You don’t take a bath? Oh, I got
it, you use toilet paper?
Devotee (4): No, I don’t. I am not that fallen. I am not so fallen.
Maharaja: So what of that didn’t you do? You don’t chant japa?
Devotee (4): Yes.
Maharaja: Oh, ok, you don’t chant japa?
Devotee (4): No, no.
Maharaja: So for most devotees isn’t that basically their standard lifestyle?
Devotee (4): Yes.
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Maharaja: So now what was left out of all this?
Devotee (4): Association with the devotees.
Maharaja: Yes, association with the devotees.That’s also one of the Pancaratika principles,
association of the devotees, hearing Bhagavatam, kirtana. So you can understand our
lifestyle is a Pancaratrika lifestyle, we are not living a Vedic lifestyle. We are living a
Pancaratrika lifestyle. So then on top of that then you have collecting the paraphernalia,
then purifying that paraphernalia, and meditating on the deity, and then worshiping the
deity with 16 items. So those three things that may be the part that you are not doing of
Pancaratrika. But everything else you are. So would you like to rephrase your question about
neophytes not engaged in deity worship?
Devotee (4): The question is more that what’s the principle underlying the different
mentality between kanistha and madhyama?
Maharaja: What’s that main mentality underlying it? Going by what has been spoken here
then it means that the madhyama is one who studies the scriptures in a regulated fashion to
actually understand what the scriptures are saying, means he analyzes the scriptures, tries to
come to an understanding. Because Prabhupada says there is two things, there is reading and
there is studying. So a neophyte reads but doesn’t study. A madhyama studies. From that he
understands the standards, he practices them, he teaches those. And therefore because of
that he has faith in advanced devotees. So that’s how you tell the madhyama.
Devotee (4): He is going more internal, is it also related to niyamagraha?
Maharaja: Yes, means he understands what he is doing, so if he is not following a rule he
knows why, or if he is following a rule he knows why. The neophyte it may be more
sentimental why he follows or doesn’t follow. It will be materialistic the consideration.
Materialistic meaning it’s about themselves. So one has to be very careful of something like
to say like yukta-vairagya, which means time, place, and circumstance is spiritual and not
material. Because material simply means it’s starts from you and ends with you. But spiritual
means the same activity but it’s done in connection to Krsna.
Devotee (3): Can you also say that madhyama really understands the position of a devotee
therefore he…
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (3): Makes friendship and respects them. Whereas kanistha still think they are guys
like me doing this, so there is no really…
Maharaja: Yes, they are just other guys. And because it’s says A prakrta… does not
purposefully study the sastra and try to understand the actual standard of pure devotional
service. So in other words, one great symptom of this is where are the all-pervading programs
for studying sastras in our temples? Because a neophyte doesn’t see the importance. A
madhyama would. Consequently and because of that he doesn’t try to understand the actual
standard of pure devotional service. He doesn’t know what the standard is. He is simply trying
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to defend his position of whatever he is doing. His particular lifestyle he is simply trying to
defend that. So he knows enough philosophy to defend it. But it says and consequently
because of that not knowing the actual standard of pure devotional service he does not show
proper respect to advanced devotees.
But it says, He may, however, follow the regulative principles learned from his spiritual
master. So he may be quite expert in that. So therefore he sees others following or not
following, that will be the basis of his understanding if they are advanced or not, but that’s
not the understanding. This understanding is actually how does he know the scriptures, how
is he trying to understand them, how does he therefore relate. Because in 13.8 or something,
is that the one that describes the 20 qualities of knowledge?
Devotee (6): 13.8-12.
Maharaja: What is the first quality?
Devotee (4): Humility.
Maharaja: Humility. And in the purport what does Prabhupada say? If you have knowledge
the symptom of it is humility. So this madhyama has real knowledge, therefore he has
humility, therefore he respects the Vaisnavas. So someone who doesn’t respect the
Vaisnavas, the advanced devotees, means he is not humble, means he doesn’t have
knowledge. Why? Because he hasn’t purposely tried to study.
Devotee (6): Can you also diksa is one of the consideration?
Maharaja: It is it’s coming up though, but if we just throw that in then what will happen?
The neophyte will say, well, I got second initiated, so therefore I am advanced.
Devotee (6): But I am trying to get to the qualities of a brahmana.
Maharaja: The quality is there whether he is initiated or not so he may have the qualities.
Devotee (6): I thought initiation comes after the qualities.
Maharaja: Yes, but the point is that there but it’s also a matter of manifestation, what
happens if those qualities. See, now if those qualities only from devotional. Someone may be
born with those qualities, someone may come and just naturally be born with them, so they
follow those qualities and then let’s say they are not so well situated in devotional service,
they’ll still have those same qualities, though now they are not devotionally applied.
Another person isn’t born with those qualities, but by contact with the devotees, association
with the devotees and by chanting Hare Krsna he develops those qualities. But now if he
gives up devotional service those qualities may be lost.
Devotee (6): Generally.
Maharaja: Yes, generally. It’s just like I think it was Bhakti-caru Maharaja, when
Prabhupada wanted to give him sannyasa, because he was quite new and quite young, so the
other senior men were worried, but he is so young, what if he falls down? Prabhupada says,
yeah, if he falls down he’ll fall down to the mode of goodness. He falls away from devotional
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service he’ll come crashing down to the mode of goodness. In other words, saying he is not
like you guys, he is going to hit the kids of ignorance. He’ll just go back to being a nice
Bengali gentleman.
Devotee (6): …
Maharaja: It’s inherent qualities, it’s not the birth. The birth happens to be the window
through which you appear. I go and buy a bicycle, it’s not just sitting on the street, it’s in a
shop. Now people see me with the bicycle when I come walking out the door. So did the
door give birth to the bicycle or to me? No. So the parents are a medium. Your qualities are
already set, but because your qualities and their qualities have some connection through
consciousness, that’s why it’s said the consciousness of the parents at the time of conception
then attracts that kind of soul, it doesn’t create the soul.
So let’s say the parents are intellectual by nature, so their consciousness is generally
going to be have that element to it. So they’ll attract a soul who is intelligent. But if at the
time they are not being intelligent they could attract something else. So many times we have
because if you are not or you are not…then it’s just simply on what is the time, what planets
are controlling it. I have seen people who the parents have basically socially no standing,
not intelligent, no degrees, uneducated, but their kid is like brilliant. It’s just the modes were
there. The parents don’t necessarily get the credit for that unless they were thinking of
Stephen Hawking at the time of conception.
So the emphasis on birth is still not important. But you look in birth because it’s a
natural consideration in the Hungarian, the apple doesn’t fall very far from the tree. So
because the parents are like that they generally will attract that kind of kid. So most of the
time is what it is. So you see parents are brahminical, generally the child will be. Parents are
ksatriya, the child will be. But it may not be. It depends on what their service is, this and
that.
Devotee (6): So many factors to rely on.
Maharaja: So many factors to rely on, that’s why the Vedic culture then puts so much
emphasis on this. That’s why the element of being very conscious and being very aware of
these things. One may say, oh, that is not practical, garbhadana this that, but it is because
then it ensures that a particular standard of living entity is there. Because the point is you
have to live with it for the next some time. So it might as well be someone you don’t mind
living with. Out of attachment, of course, we’ll live him, but it should be it was nice, it was
pleasant.
So that’s why you are trying to the best possible association for yourself and that will
give the best possible for everyone else. Now the point is as it said the soul is inherently the
natural pure servant of Krsna, so any soul no matter what is their condition or background
then can come to that standard. So even if you are not dealing with someone of great
qualification, by association and by devotional practice he will gain it. So they are still no
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loss. But it’s a matter of if you have a choice why not take it? But if you don’t have a choice
it doesn’t matter, the devotional process will make it perfect anyway.
It’s just like I can go out and buy a bag of rice, and it comes in a nice little plastic thing,
all this and that. There is no rocks inside. It’s not dirty this that so much. So minimal
adjustments I can cook it. I can go to the market buy some other rice or I can get some cheap
rice, but I’ll have to spend half an hour picking all the rocks out and all the other bits and
pieces, putting it out on the sun to get rid of the bugs, all this and that. But after I wash it I’ll
have nice rice. But it’s just I have to put in that time, that’s all.
So that’s the point you spend basically a few months preparing and the consciousness for
the child, or you spend 20 years trying to pick out all the bugs and rocks and everything else
that’s in there. But if you do it right you will get the same result. That’s the point.
Devotee (6): You are trying to explain this concept with diksa…?
Maharaja: Diksa is coming up, that’s why I am not getting into the diksa. It’s coming up.
That’s why it’s said, it’s coming. Now they are just saying this is your basis. Because
otherwise what will happen if diksa is considered right in the beginning then people are
going to say, well, I have second initiation, so I am advanced. But they are pointing out you
tell by this, do they study the scriptures or not? Do they know the standards of pure
devotional service or not? Can they tell the difference between sakama and niskama
devotional service? Do they know what are the standards of cleanliness, deity worship?
What is chanting the holy name? What is namabhasa? What are the offences?
Devotee (6): I am just thinking, Maharaja, to be a little purified, see things as they are to
notice, to be… in scriptures, to know the principles.
Maharaja: It’s like this if you have purity, nice, you’ll do that. If not, then you have to gain
it. And where is it gained? It’s gained through service based on association. So it’s like
devotees will come to the temple they’d wash pots for six months. After six months you are
kind of more interested in what’s going on. Before that you are still trying to work out this
and that, my old girlfriend, not smoking, this and that, or this is so cramped, so many people,
I like to go out into the forest. Whatever is your little bits and pieces, if your business is still
doing ok, like that, whatever it may be, but after some purification then the knowledge of
Krsna consciousness is there. Then it’s you are new, you want to know, so it should be that’s
encouraged. I doubt it it will be hardly anyway who wouldn’t be, any devotee wouldn’t be
interested in studying Bhaktisastri. So if it’s seen that some are more academic, some are
less, you make courses that run at different speeds.
So in other words, you use your brains to make it work. But this is the basis. Are they
able to associate with devotees properly? So that’s been mentioned here, those who know
they’ll deal properly with devotees. Those who don’t won’t. Why won’t they? Because they
don’t know the standards of devotional service. Why don’t they know the standards of
devotional service? Because they don’t study the scriptures. So in other words, if there is a
problem with not respecting devotees that goes back because devotees don’t know the
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standards. Why don’t they know the standards? There is no study. In other words, think
about it, here, MIHE, VIHE, Radhadesa, can I name one more permanent educational
institution? Can I name one more? No. 450 centers around the world, 4 have permanent
educational systems, and that’s in 3 places. So if you wonder why there is not proper respect
for advanced devotees in general it’s because no one knows the standards of devotional
service. Why? Because they haven’t actually studied the scriptures.
That’s the point being made here. Initiation is coming up. Is it in relation to this,
otherwise we are overtime?
Devotee (3): Yes, it’s in relation to…
Maharaja: This rock here?
Devotee (3): Yes. Men and women, it seems that traditionally ladies would not be engaged
in studying the sastra.
Maharaja: Women would not be engaged in studying the sastra traditionally. Who said?
Devotee (3): No, I am saying it looks like it.
Maharaja: It looks like it. Why does it look like? Where did you get the looks from?
Devotee (3): Kashmani (?).
Maharaja: A Kashwan (?). Because if you are talking about looks, why do you pick looks?
Means people generally are interested in associating with women because of their looks. So
why do you take looks meaning they don’t study? Means anyone looks that good has no time
to study?
Devotee (3): Something like that.
Maharaja: Something like that.
Devotee (6): They don’t have access.
Maharaja: They don’t have access. Why don’t they have access? You have a book, you open
it.
Devotee (6): But now. After the scriptures were translated from Sanskrit to other languages
then they had access. First the brahmanas had propriety over it.
Maharaja: Brahmanas had propriety, but this information that you are speaking you are
speaking that from the modern academic perspective, right?
Devotee (6): That’s what happened.
Maharaja: That’s what I am saying according to the modern history, modern academics. So
you are taking the word of a Western mleccha Christian whose purpose in dealing with the
Vedic literatures is that the followers of the Vedas were barbarians that you can establish
Christianity, you are going to take their historical perspective.
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Devotee (6): I am trying to understand that the brahmanas made a big u-ha when the
Sanskrit was translated into Bengali, and then from Bengali English. So before that very few
people had access to scriptures.
Maharaja: Means the Mahabharata is in what language?
Devotee (6): Now, so many languages.
Maharaja: No, but what language is it written in?
Devotee (6): Sanskrit.
Maharaja: Sanskrit, and does it ever mention that Yudhisthira Maharaja was speaking
something other then Sanskrit? What language was he speaking? Sanskrit. Ok, now in that
book there is so many conversations between him and Draupadi, Arjuna and Draupadi, or
Bhima and Draupadi, or even other, Satyabhama and other queens of Dvaraka and
Draupadi, what language were they speaking in? Sanskrit. So what do you mean it’s not
available? Why it’s not available? It’s available.
Devotee (6): My understanding is of the gurukulas.
Maharaja: Your understanding, that’s the gurukulas, why are they going to the gurukula?
Why are the boys going to the gurukula?
Devotee (6): To study.
Maharaja: To study, but why do they have to study?
Devotee (6): Because it’s in their nature, it’s part of their duties.
Maharaja: It’s part of their duty. Why is it part of their duty? You give somebody part of
their duties something that’s their nature. A dog you make him a guard because he likes to
bark.
Devotee (6): Were women allowed in gurukulas?
Maharaja: Were women allowed in gurukulas? No, see, stick to the point. Why are the boys
there?
Devotee (6): Because they are brahmanas and…
Maharaja: They are brahmanas, ok, so why, but at the same time just to make more clear,
brahmanas, ksatriyas, and vaisyas all went to the same school.
Devotee (6): So they were allowed, my understanding was…
Maharaja: That’s my point you have gotten it from people who trying to look the Vedic
culture look bad. Krsna and Balarama went to gurukula, right? Can you add up two and two
just from that sentence? They were ksatriyas, so how were they allowed at gurukula if that
was true? Brahmanas, ksatriyas, and vaisyas went to gurukula. Why did they go to gurukula?
Devotee (6): To study.
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Maharaja: To study, just to study? So they could have, that’s all it was available a gurukula,
they could have gone to Harvard, it’s on the other side of the planet, they didn’t have the
money for a ticket.
Devotee (6): To learn from a guru.
Maharaja: To learn from a guru, ok. So if that’s the only thing, so that’s the special, so that
makes it available to them, but the husband is also pati-guru, the wife is learning from guru.
So they also have no access to guru? Or if they are in the Pancaratrika system they have a
Pancaratrika guru, so they have no access to guru?
They are going there to learn to be human beings, so they can lead society, they can
perform occupational duties. So the only thing restricted is the women don’t learn the Vedic
mantras with svaras. Mainly because for the ladies exactness in something is not what’s
important because they like variety. So if you can change it and make it better then that’s
what they’ll always do. You teach a recipe, then they’ll learn the recipe, but then if you
come back later they’ll cook it, it will be different. And everybody they cook it, it will be
different. So that’s alright with anything but the Veda. The Veda you can’t do that to. So
that’s the point, so therefore only boys learn it, because it’s their nature. Girls, even you
teach them the Veda, you come back after five years, they will chant it differently than how
they were taught it. Because they’ll change it according to their feelings. But you come back
after 50 years the boy will still chant it the same way. That’s why the Veda in that form is
only given to there. But the Upanisads have you ever read that women can’t read
Upanisads?
Devotee (4): You just mentioned the Mahabharata, isn’t that for women, sudras, and friends
of the…
Maharaja: Yes, I mean that’s there and it’s in Sanskrit. It was written in Sanskrit. That’s
even a better point. It’s written in Sanskrit for women, friends of the dvija-bandhus, the
sudras, vaisyas. So that means it’s written in Sanskrit it was approachable by them.
Devotee (6): But were there different topics, like the brahmanas concentrated on the
transcendental subject matters, and the ksatriyas were…
Maharaja: Transcendental, ok, Maharaja Pracinabarhisat and Narada Muni then spoke to
him this whole story of the analogy or allegory of King Puranjana. Why? Why did he have to
speak that? Does he come down and give that whole analogy to Yudhisthira Maharaja?
Devotee (7): He was too attached.
Maharaja: Yes, why was he too attached? All of his brahmanas only knew karma-kanda. He
had never heard of transcendental knowledge. He didn’t know it existed and neither did his
brahmanas.
So transcendental knowledge that is the nature of the soul to learn, that’s what a human
being is supposed to be learning. But brahmana is an occupational position from the
platform that you are discussing from. Because otherwise if you are talking brahmana means
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one who knows Brahman, so anybody who knows Brahman is a brahmana. But you are
talking occupational duty. So the occupational duties that are trained that’s different. But
that’s one thing out of four things that one learns in gurukula. One learns sadhana, that’s
common. All members of the Vedic culture follow the same sadhana. Means someone is a
pujari and someone is not a pujari, do they go to mangala-aratika? Do they chant japa? They
shave their head, they put tilaka, they put neck beads, wear brahmana thread? So that’s
brahminical culture, so it’s looks like brahmanas, because it’s brahminical culture. So in
culture brahmanas, ksatriyas, and vaisyas will look the same, it’s all brahminical culture.
There is not ksatriya culture, vaisya culture. It’s one culture, brahminical culture. Then they
study the scriptures, so they all study the scriptures. The third thing is having learned the
sadhana and studied the scriptures, then you study what’s specific for your varna. And then
having done that you studied the scriptures and occupation, then you study arts. Because
learning puja is sadhana for everybody but it’s an occupation for a brahmana. Learning
doing the yajnas is sadhana for the dvijas but it’s occupation for the brahmanas. Giving
charity is sadhana for all the three orders. But for a brahmana receiving charity is part of his
lifestyle.
So this is where, in other words, they make too much of a difference out of the three
varnas. Why? Because it’s not obvious that someone is a brahmana, because they don’t have
the character, they don’t have the qualities. Therefore they make themselves look very, very
big and special because they know a few mantras or rituals, like they figure out which end of
the acamana spoon to use. But actually that’s not the big deal in being a brahmana. The big
deal in being a brahmana is that you are applying the transcendental knowledge to your
occupation and you have access to everybody. Ksatriya can’t walk into everywhere. Vaisya
can’t walk into everywhere. Sudra can’t. But a brahmana can. So he has access to everyone,
everywhere, at all times. So therefore he is supposed to be training them in these higher
understandings of brahmana. But he can only do that if there is a common culture that
everybody is interested in Brahman. Means if you are interested, if someone is willing to
teach, then you go there.
Like we are able to sit here and run this class. Why are we able to do that? Because no
one is interested? Devotees are interested. You create an opportunity, they come. Ants are
interested in sugar, right? They walk around the floor, there is no sugar they keep walking
around. You put a piece of sugar there they all come to the sugar.
So in other words, because the brahminical culture is there, means its basis is Brahman,
therefore when brahminical activities in specific are offered it attracts the members of the
brahminical community. And even the sudras because they are assisting the others, they
basically follow the same lifestyle. I don’t know if you noticed, like when they were building
this road, occasionally they would bring in their women, they are wearing saris and doing all
that, covering their head, carrying all the rocks and all that. So in certain ways they’ll live
the same lifestyle as the dvijas, just they are not so strict about it or this or that, or more
lenient. But it’s not looked on as bad, it’s looked on as good. A kid is not strict in his
chanting of his japa, but he chants. Do you consider it good? The four year old, he picks up a
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beads and chants a round. Are you going to say, wow, he chanted a round, or are you going
to say, hey, where is the other 15, kid? So that’s the position of the sudra.
So by assisting in the work that others are doing. They are doing Krsna conscious work,
so assisting them he is engaged and he naturally picks up the lifestyle. And because of that
then anybody could naturally become a devotee. If the dvijas they work with are devotees
then they’ll be devotees. So if they are strictly following or not, as we read before, it’s still
will work in devotional service because their focus is on the devotion. They are simple, so it
will be on the devotion.
And then today is what? Tuesday. So on Thursday then on the same page, yeah, we
started here, then he’ll get into initiation, and that’s where it brings up, generally we don’t
worry about that so much, position born in families and all that, but as time goes you have to
worry about it. (end of lecture)
Devotee (3): In pursuance of this Mahaprakasa-lila (?) perception, the ladies …generally
know the sastric knowledge from the husbands or they would have some institution…?
Maharaja: Why it has to be either husband or an institution? Why can’t they just sit down
and read a book?
Devotee (3): They can? I am just asking.
Maharaja: Traditionally before ladies when they would get educated the teachers would
come to their house and teach them at the house.
Devotee (3): That’s how it goes.
Maharaja: Yes, the brahmanas would come to the house and teach. They wouldn’t go out to
a school. So the education was there, it was just done in the house.
Devotee (3): The same depending on their varna…
Maharaja: Depending on their nature, that’s all.
Devotee (3): Same education.
Maharaja: Yes. If there was a girl in the brahmana family who ran a gurukula then she would
generally study in that school until she gets married. Means if her father runs a gurukula
she’d study in his gurukula until she gets married. Or if not his school then any relative. But
always you see the connection it’s always in-house, it’s always with the family, with some
connection. So it’s either her house was a gurukula or people came to her house and taught,
so their house was where the school was. But this idea that they weren’t educated because
they didn’t go to an outside school that’s not there. Boys have to get out of the house to be
conscious. Girls are conscious in the house. Girls are always conscious. It’s just a matter of
whether they are just only conscious about themselves, means in other words, their
consciousness of everything around them is it only in relation to themselves or does it have
some connection with others? That’s the only difference and change. So it’s a matter of how
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religious or not they are, but conscious they are. Boys they are not conscious in the house.
You have to remove them from the house. That’s why boys have to go to gurukula. That’s
why there is the difference.
Because on the same thing then he is saying a bad thing about the girl is going, it’s either
then they have to go to the gurukula, why do boys have to go to gurukula? Because there is
no distinction made between men and women. So so many problems come up because if you
don’t know what a woman is or what a man is how do you make it work?
Devotee (3): So it would be natural that women don’t like to go out.
Maharaja: They don’t like to go out because the point is if you are in your house you control
the situation, it’s there. You already have a hierarchy there, so you don’t have any more
trips. Girl goes out to a school then there is all these trips, there is all these which girl is
senior to which girl and this and that, because she joined in the morning before you did, you
joined in the afternoon. It’s a whole trip. And how you dress, how you do this, how you do
that, and all these things, and what’s…yesterday, I… this morning. All that kind of crap. So
it’s just you miss out on all that.
Devotee (3): So that would be a proper approach to educate…
Maharaja: Yes, means they would be educated but in the house. Or a group of girls that are
known, they all live there, they are all family, they are all part of the same community or
something, so already that thing is there, that social interaction is already there. It’s already
present, so you don’t have to worry about it. But for the boys you have to take them out of
that. So they are in an unknown environment, so they become conscious of what’s going on
around them. So that’s the point, that’s the reason, that’s the main reason boys go to the
gurukula. Not to get trained in, they could get trained in their home, but they won’t actually
learn if they are in the home unless they are taken out because they don’t become conscious.
Devotee (6): I remember that Prabhupada was also saying that the father will tend to spoil.
Maharaja: Yes, yes, yes.
Devotee (6): So that’s why it’s also good…otherwise…too soft.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s hard to be…because the thing is here it’s not so much of being strong or
yelling and screaming, it’s a matter of teaching them without that attachment that’s there,
this is what you have to do and whether they like it or not that’s what you are going to do.
This is like I had parents bring the kid and then give this whole list of things he’ll eat or
not eat and only under what conditions and which what and this and that, and we just sit
him down to lunch and if they want to eat it, nice, if the don’t they get hungry. It’s a
perfectly good lunch and if they don’t want to eat it, yes, they… And you generally see
within a couple of days they are eating nicely, heartily. Because they can get away with
being trippy at home. So it’s more fun. But then they figure out you can be trippy here but
you won’t get anything to eat and everybody else is eating, so very quickly they learn.
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So that kind of thing, then when they go home they are very happy, they eat what mum
cooks, or happy… She is more happy, everyone is more happy. While the other is, ok, they
are dependent and all this, but it’s a bit of a trip.
Devotee (6): Another that I have seen is that when my kids get teenagers they become
rebellious and then it’s really difficult to get them to tell the line at home. And what
happens is you end up actually creating bad relationship. Whereas if they are in the school,
the school takes care of all that, when they come home everything is just free.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s just I wish more parents quite understood that that the teen years you
want to stick them in before so the teachers have a relationship and have influence, and
then once they are through that then they come back home.
Devotee (6): And all that bad trip of the teenage time.
Maharaja: But for the teacher it’s not actually a problem, because he doesn’t have that
attachment element. So it’s an annoyance, it’s not devastating like it is to the family. It’s just
an annoyance.
Devotee (3): So girls are not so affected by teens in this…
Maharaja: They are, but at the same time they are not because the quality of a girl is
basically the same. What she is affected by is the child-bearing age, during that time the
hormons make the emotions more volatile than before. Because you see girls before that and
girls after that then they are always very pleasant and easy to get along with. It’s just in-
between then it’s more of a problem. So it’s technically the teen years, ok, it will be different
from that, but how the teenager behaves and how the older lady behaves is pretty much the
same. It’s just the older lady learns that there are situations that you don’t act like a
teenager. That’s all. It’s not that they don’t act like one.
It’s just like the men, it’s not that they don’t act like kids. You get a whole bunch of men
together and it’s a relaxed environment and it goes wild, you could have 40 year old men or
you could have a bunch of 15 year olds he’d be doing the same thing. So that’s there. It’s just
the adults know when to do that and when not to do that. While the teenagers without
training don’t know, they are always the same punkiness all the time, all day, all situations,
that’s the problem. They want to be punky, great. When you are with your friends sitting on
the bench, nothing else happening, then be a punk. But when you are at a job or you are at
school, then do something, learn something, do something. (end)
May 13, 2010

Maharaja:
Although he has taken shelter of the path of devotional service, a neophyte is not yet a
true devotee.
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Understand here it’s also when they say true devotee one is they are meaning pure
devotee, so that starts with madhyama, but ultimately the definition means someone who
has attained prema. So no one should be worried, remember, it’s sadhana-bhakti. So in
sadhana-bhakti that means you are practicing for devotional service. So devotional service
actually starts at prema when there is actual love for God. That’s the standard. Before that
one is practicing. So then our standard by the vaidhi-sadhana-bhakti then that goes through
the neophyte and the madhyama stage. And then at the uttama stage then you are dealing
with bhava-sadhana-bhakti. Generally we just call it bhava, but it’s actually bhava-sadhana-
bhakti. So we see up to prema it’s all sadhana. So that’s why technically you can say one is
actually a devotee at prema. Because that’s what you are trying to get to. But before that one
is very solidly situated at madhyama because then one is a pure devotee, because a
madhyama means a pure devotee. You can be a neophyte and be a pure devotee, or be a
neophyte and not be a pure devotee. But you can’t be a madhyama and not be a pure
devotee. And then the lowest state of pure devotee will be madhyama. The medium stage
will be uttama. And then the highest stage will be someone who is on the platform of prema.
Devotee (1): What will it mean neophyte pure devotee?
Maharaja: What is neophyte pure devotee? Why, what does it sound like?
Devotee (1): What is the definition of…?
Maharaja: Means that they would be completely committed to Krsna consciousness, they
know the standards and this and that, then in that case it would be not using this definition
here as much as we would be using the definition of they are not so studied in the scriptures
so they wouldn’t have an argument, they wouldn’t know how to discuss in an argument. Like
we see Kasi Misra, when the panditas speak all nonsense like he doesn’t know what to say.
Not that he couldn’t say something, he is an eternal associate of the Lord. It’s just he
couldn’t be bothered. Why waste your time with these people? So therefore he manifest like
a neophyte devotee when actually in one sense it’s just the uttama who doesn’t actually see
that there is any problem. But in the pastime it looks like a neophyte.
Devotee (1): …definition that he doesn’t see…
Maharaja: Means, yes, in other words, you have all these different definitions and so they
will describe, so you have to see what actually is the one to apply in the situation. So here we
are talking this definition is talking about his own determination. It’s not talking about how
he does in a public debate. That’s one way to tell. Because if you are really committed you’ll
find something to say, or if you don’t know you leave. So a neophyte may not have
something to say so he’ll leave. If he is even less of a problem he won’t leave he’ll actually
stay there and become convinced by the opposing argument. A neophyte will try to and if
he runs out of arguments then he’ll leave. And an uttama won’t run out of arguments.
He is described in these words (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.47):
So this is Eleventh Canto, so we can’t say that this is something else. You can’t say, well,
this is Bhaktivinoda Thakura…
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"A prakrta, or materialistic devotee, does not purposefully study the sastra and try to
understand the actual standard of pure devotional service.
So in other words, from the study of the sastra that’s what one is trying to understand.
So this gives a very clear definition what the purpose of the study is for. It’s trying, what is
the standard of pure devotional service? So in other words, memorizing verses isn’t actually
what you are trying to do. You are trying to understand the standard of pure devotional
service. But because one wants to practice it himself and teach it to others, then by
memorizing verses then you have the evidence on what you are doing. So the goal is not to
memorize verses. The goal is to be able to be committed to this. You know what to do, you
practice it, and you can teach others. And to do that then you quote verses. So the quoting
of the verses it means that the memorization of the verses is there but it’s actual purpose is
for preaching. It’s not the goal of the study. The goal of the study is to understand the
standard of pure devotional service.
So in other words, pure devotional service where Rupa Goswami describes that one who
is conscious, who is conscious of God, who is favorably conscious to God, and in that
performance of activities that are favorable towards God it’s free from karma and jnana,
that’s pure devotional service. It’s based on the scriptures, it’s not made up. And so that we
understand is pure devotional service.
So then in describing all of that exactly what is consciousness, what is pure devotional
service, what is karma, what is jnana, then we study the scriptures purposely to understand
it. Like here Bhaktivinoda Thakura is going to at great length to try to define what is the
difference between karma and jnana and pure devotional service. So these first chapters are
very much just, in other words, removing it through logical explanation from just what is
just purely just mundane and what’s transcendental, and then how to tell the difference in
that. And then as he goes it will get finer and finer. Once he does this then he’ll deal with
sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana, and then after that then they’ll start dealing with
more subtle levels of the devotional process.
Consequently
Means because he doesn’t purposely study the scriptures.
he does not show proper respect to advanced devotees.
And remember advanced starts, Prabhupada defines it, from madhyama. A madhyama is
an advanced devotee. Why? Because he is a pure devotee. But he is a madhyama pure
devotee. So one shouldn’t try to apply standards of the uttama to the madhyama and then
say he is not a pure devotee. Many will do that. Or actually they apply the standards of
someone on the platform of prema. Because most people when you hear pure devotee then
they’ll say, well, what’s a pure devotee? A nitya-siddha, an uttama-adhikari, someone who is
fixed in devotional service. I have just given three definitions. But they don’t know that,
they think it’s one. So that’s the problem. Because they haven’t purposely studied, they
actually can’t tell the difference. So therefore they don’t actually know how to respect
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devotees. So Prabhupada is more obvious. But anyone else they might have a problem with
because they actually don’t know how to tell.
He may, however, follow the regulative principles learned from his spiritual master or
from his family who worships the Deity.
So it may be he is very expert at following all these things, he does the rules and
regulations, he follows the principles, he is very moral, he is very upstanding, he is a good
person, but still it’s those qualities are still stemming from the mundane platform. In other
words, they are good and upstanding now. But if they weren’t a devotee they’d be the same.
He is very intellectual now, he has done his degree, but if he wasn’t a devotee he still would
have gotten his degree. He is a devotee, so he is nice and considerate of others, but if he
wasn’t a devotee he’d still be nice and considerate of others. So that’s what we mean here is
material. It’s not that those material qualities aren’t engaged in the Lord’s service, that’s
wonderful. But his basis of having those qualities is from the mundane platform, not from
the spiritual. It’s not from his determination in devotional service therefore he has all these
qualities. They are developing. He is in the process of developing them. But the prominence
is the material.
The madhyama means the prominence is the spiritual. There is still material there,
that’s why it’s very important to understand this. Means if it’s 60% that means then that you
would call that prominent, that will be spiritual, that’s fixed. But it still means there is 40%
still problem is there. But it’s the minor now. So if one takes it there can be no problem. If
anyone ever did anything wrong then he was never a devotee or he is not advanced and this
and that. These aren’t actual real sastrically-based perspectives.
So one has to be very, very careful in discussing those things. Because if some very
advanced devotee is saying, well, they were never a devotee, what he is referring to means
they were never on the platform of prema. But the problem is then that person’s neophyte
disciples then they think they weren’t a devotee at all means even a sadhaka or anything
like that, they can’t distinguish. So that’s there, because the uttama will see everybody is a
devotee, but there is a matter of whether they are practicing or not. So he is meaning they
never practiced prema-bhakti, or they are not practiced, but they were never on that
platform therefore.
Because otherwise we can see bhava is considered uttama-adhikari, but even from bhava
one can fall away. Bharata Maharaja was on the platform of bhava and he still fell away.
And also one doesn’t need to make so much distinction about the quality of something of
what one fell away. Because then that is simply mundane. What does it matter if it’s this or
that? This one got attached to a deer, that one got attached to a woman, that guy was
attached to his car. Whatever it was that doesn’t matter. Attachment is the problem,
material attachment that’s the real problem. Not what it’s attached to, that’s a detail. So
then sometimes we love to get into the detail of what happened so that we can apply our
mundane standards on, oh, that fall was worse than this fall. But that doesn’t matter.
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It’s just like let us say you come along and you are on a boat and you look over the reiling
in the boat and you see someone in the water. And then you start up a conversation with
the others there, well, how did he fall in? Did he fall over backwards? Or was it sideways? Or
did he slip under the reiling? Or he was standing on the reiling and then fell off? Or
someone threw him? No, you save the person, it doesn’t matter how he got in the water. All
you know he is in the water.
And then if one says, oh, you have to teach others. Yes, but the point is attachment,
how to deal properly with attachment, that’s it. Not on whether one fell off this way or that
way. The point is this way or that way are applications of how attachment worked. So then
you know actually what to look for, otherwise we tend to look for the wrong thing.
Devotee (1): …
Maharaja: Can you speak a little… It’s just like this, I mean it’s just like that, Caesar had a
lot of problem when he went up north across the…because the people of there, besides
wearing bear skins and that, they were very loud and boisterous. So allow some of the
geneage to influence your power of speaking.
Devotee (1): It will not better if a person without fall down would be seen…it’s not kind of
breaking the Vedic standard…
Maharaja: But what’s the Vedic standard, you are saying by becoming attached to a deer it’s
not against the Vedic standard, what’s the Vedic standard? What is the Vedic standard?
What are all rules and regulations?
Devotee (1): Always remember Krsna and never forget Him.
Maharaja: Yes, so then he is attached to the deer not remembering Krsna, so was he
breaking the rule? So therefore from the spiritual point of view whether he is attached to a
deer or attached to a woman what does it matter? Or he is attached to drugs, or he is
attached to gambling, or, what does it matter? On the material platform then you can say,
ok, being attached to the deer seems less a problem than being attached to a woman this
that bla. But as far as spiritual goes what’s the difference? So that’s where the prakrta comes
in, the materialistic means that the material world how they broke the principles actually
has value.
It would be like this, let’s say two guys get lost in the desert and they run out of water,
they get thirsty, they start hallucinating, and their hallucinations then one of them sees the
nice little pond and the one coconut tree with coconuts on it and a little bit of bushes there
that come nice little shade and he starts running towards that and dives into the sand there
thinking he is going to find some water. The other one the little pond, the coconut tree, and
he also sees a nice five-star hotel. And since they are in the desert why not a seven-star?
And then afterwards then someone comes along rescues them, takes them back. Then they
are talking with their friends about the experience. And so in talking with their friends
after the one describes his hallucination, the other one describes his hallucination, then one
of those friends says, well actually, the one who saw he is more fallen because he saw more in
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his illusion. While he saw less. But another friend says, no, but…if he saw a five-star hotel so
his hallucination was a better quality, while his was just more kind of like rural and simple.
But then another one says, no, but I think actually the one who was more simple that’s
better because it’s more ecological and more natural and back to our roots, while the other is
this cooperate, all kinds of like five-star hotel chains, they are ruining our environment, in
fact, what’s the hotel doing in his hallucination anyway?
So like this does that actually matter? So we’ll say it’s funny, but the illusion of the
material world that it’s something you can enjoy is an illusion whether you want to enjoy
this or that. Because then you say, ok, the guy got distracted by drugs, but then what drug?
What drug was he taking? So then someone says, well, he was taking cocaine. Ok, that’s
better, at least he was into activity and everything like that, he wasn’t a lazy guy. While the
guy who got distracted by heroine he is a loser because they just sit around and vegetate and
all that. Then the other guy says, no, but those guys because that’s all chemicals, it’s
unnatural to the body, the guy who is smoking marijuana now he was actually the better one
because he is more in tune with nature. You can go on and on and on. Or it’s like he fell
down with a woman. So, oh, this woman she’d look better therefore it was a better fall down,
while she didn’t look better and this and that. Or she was much more respectable girl, while
she is not a respectable. Or she is really wealthy.
How does it work? How do you decide? So therefore each one will do it according to
their own attachments. So the discussions that will happen on that. No, the point is they are
discussing what he fell down with. They didn’t discuss the process. Otherwise he’ll say, ok,
he went in there, he got some bad association, ok, but if it’s just that and then what
happened? And then he went away, he got this that. Then that’s fine. But it’s a matter you
are not making a judgment on the personality. As soon as you are making a judgment then
you are focusing on that. The process of attachment, how did he get in that position? Why
was he in that position? What was going on? Those kind of things are to discuss. How could
they have been supported?
Devotee (1): Why is the attachment?
Maharaja: Yes, why is the attachment, or why wasn’t the attachment going away? Or just…it
happens, so now what are we going to do? Rather than, ok, he fell away and so now because
of that now the rest of his life they have to wear a sign on their head or something like that.
So one has to be very, very careful, this is the meaning of…
He is to be considered on the material platform, although he is trying to advance in
devotional service. Such a person is a bhakta-praya (neophyte devotee), or bhaktabhasa, for
he is a little enlightened by Vaisnava philosophy."
A little enlightened, so the point is Vaisnava philosophy is so great and broad, so a little
enlightened means the realization is not so much. He may have knowledge, he may have an
understanding, he practices nicely, but realization is not so strong. So basically what we are
trying to say it’s not being done in such a position to put that the neophyte devotee has no
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standing, it’s to put it in a position so you know what the standard is. In other words, the
mundane cultural interaction of the neophyte devotee should not be the prominence. It may
go on, that’s standard, they need to do all that, but it should be understood that what
actually is the standard of pure devotional service and that’s what they are endeavoring for,
that’s what they are trying to get to, that should be the focus. At the same time if there is
that material thing to do then what is the big deal if they make a mistake?
It’s just like you have adults, you have the young kid, small kid, then you have a young
adult who is just getting into the world, then you have somebody who is mature, who is very
well situated. Now if a young kid makes a mistake does it anybody take it very seriously? Oh,
he dropped his, what do you call these little bottles with a nipple on it?
Devotee (2): Milk bottle.
Maharaja: Yes, his little milk bottle. Oh, he dropped his milk bottle, what a nonsense. Oh,
he fell over. That’s what they do. That’s their occupation. What do babies do as an
occupation? They fall over, they make their dipers dirty, they add to the… in the room. All
these different things are their full-time occupation. So no one gets upset. But if you had
this 40 year old cooperate businessman he was doing that, then you might find it a bit of a
problem.
So it’s to create so that you know where everything stands, so one is you know what you
are trying to get into, and at the same time you are not disturbed by the position that it’s in.
Others make mistake, it happens, but this is what we are trying to get to. And those who are
more advanced then they also don’t become disturbed, they know where they are trying to
get to, but they are not disturbed by others, so then they try to help. Neophytes make
friendship with neophytes, they respect the madhyamas and uttamas. Madhyamas will be
kind to the neophytes, make friends with each other, and then respect the uttamas.
Devotee (1): In this example with the baby and the cooperate guy how it would apply into
neophyte’s…fall down of madhyama it’s much more serious the person considered it’s much
more grave.
Maharaja: The thing is what is the necessity of mundane graveness? If somebody falls down
is it spiritual or is it material?
Devotee (1): Material.
Maharaja: Material. So why do we make so much distinction between? The distinction is
made only to create a feeling that one should be very careful, something stronger so that
something more to worry about.
It’s just like this, ok, we are going to take, you take the regulative principles, now those
regulative principles when they are applied to general people then they are sinful reaction.
But now let’s say those are applied to a brahmana there is greater reaction. That’s called a
maha-papa. The other ones are just sin. Now of all the five great sins, the worst is killing a
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brahmana. But do you ever hear anybody talking about that’s the worst sin? No, why?
Because they don’t even know. And you know what’s equal to killing a brahmana?
Devotee (3): Blaspheming a brahmana.
Maharaja: Blaspheming a brahmana. Now is that just like standard like breath for Vaisnavas,
I mean mlecchas? It’s just standard. So that’s the point the worst sin it’s just like breathing.
And then these others, why is it is anybody going off the head because the guy got distracted
by gambling? Does anybody care? And if somebody got into meat-eating they’ll consider it
bad, but how bad? Not so bad. And if they got into drugs that would be bad, but not so bad.
But if it’s illicit sex, oh, that’s the end of the world. Why? Because that is the most valuable
thing to them on the material platform. Therefore then they give so much weight to it.
But it’s mentioned that a meat-eater can’t understand the nature of the soul. So it’s a
worst position spiritually then someone who is engaged in illicit sex. But the problem with
illicit sex it’s so distracting. It’s so intense and absorbing. The meat-eating is not that
absorbing. The guy doesn’t spend all day looking around and burgers and go on the internet
and googling burger… Wow, I found a triple-cheese burger today. That’s not going on. So
even though it’s less distraction on that thing, what it does to the consciousness is it lowers
it to the point that one doesn’t see the soul.
But it will not be given so much prominence. Illicit sex is so absorbing that one forgets
Krsna. One thinks everything is fine. It’s much more absorbing. So what I am saying on
these different things is what is actually the problem with each…? So what’s the problem
with illicit sex? If you ask a devotee what’s wrong with illicit sex, what’s the problem?
Devotee (1): You are distracted from Krsna.
Maharaja: Yes, you are distracted from Krsna. But if you went out and just ask someone in
the community would that be their answer? Think about it. Would that be their answer? No.
It would be something connected with morality, and that morality wouldn’t be based on the
Vedas either. So that’s the problem.
That’s why it’s said material. That’s why it says prakrta, because their absorption is in
prakrti. So that’s by associating with advanced devotees, by practicing the process, one gets
more and more understanding, more convinced, and one will have more realization. So
when that becomes the prominence then one becomes steady, then one is madhyama. So
then all these other problems they become very, very less. Not saying the problems aren’t
there, but they are very less. Then one gets taste, ruci, then they become even more less.
Then it becomes very dynamic. Because then from that it becomes so dynamic, very quickly
it turns into asakti, attachment. Now this is spiritual attachment, not material attachment.
It may have the element of our own pleasure and attraction, that’s why we are interested,
but the point is one is attached to the holy name, one is attached to Krsna, one is attached
to the devotional practices. Not as rituals, but as the devotional experience that’s gained
from it, the taste that’s gained. Because remember in Jada Bharata, it’s not all he did was
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take care of a deer all day. It’s not that he is not absorbed in devotional service, just the deer
is also there.
Devotee (4): Falling from the standard of devotional service it is the most precarious
situation for the soul, then could one categorize the different forms into which one, the
material nature, into which one could fall down according to the modes of material nature
understanding.
Maharaja: According to the modes of material nature can you say? Basically on all of them
you’d have to ignorance is there because one thinks one is the controller and enjoyer, but
it’s just different elements, but basically it’s passion and ignorance.
Devotee (4): Like someone falls from devotional service into a form that is more in sattva-
guna
Maharaja: One falls into a form more in sattva-guna.
Devotee (4): Then for him it will be easier to come back…
Maharaja: For him will it be easier to come back? If he has association, yes. But without good
association not necessarily. Because someone situated in goodness then they think
everything is fine, everything is alright. You have very nice people, like I remember one
family, the husband is a devotee of ISKCON, the wife is a devotee not of ISKCON, of
Rama, Ramacandra, she doesn’t like Krsna. Because she is such a situated and everything,
nice and good and a moralist that she can’t handle that Krsna is off dancing with other
people’s wives. She is just not about to worship this guy. But Rama, now He is like the
perfect manifestation of religious principles. So she is just totally into worshiping
Ramacandra. Everything He does is perfect according to rules. But Krsna never follows the
rules, so she can’t relate to Him.
So here that situation in goodness is so strong that it doesn’t even allow you to
understand the spiritual. By association then slowly slowly then that can change. So it can.
But the general principle is the person in the mode of goodness then regulating the life,
surrendering to authority, being clean, being responsible, proper performance of duties,
being active because they are not in ignorance, so they are active, not being attached to
results, humility, these things are all easy for them. So with a little cultivation they move
forward very well. So if that is cultivated in relationship to devotional service then they’ll
advance very nicely. Otherwise they’ll advance nicely in the Vedic method. But they still
stay in the material world just in a better situation.
"Thus one who faithfully worships the Deity of the Lord but does not faithfully worship
the Lord's devotees, is a materialistic devotee (prakrta-bhakta).
In other words, they accept the Lord or they’ll accept Prabhupada, so then that way you
can say is the devotee. But then what about those who are serving Prabhupada? So that’s
better, he just worships the deity but doesn’t accept the acarya, then that’s a problem. He
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accepts the acarya is great, but what about the rest of the devotees. So it means there is less
of a problem, but still a problem.
The conclusion, then, is that faith is the seed of devotional service.
To faithfully worship the Deity of the Lord is to engage in devotional service. Still, if
one does not also worship the Lord's devotees, his worship is not pure devotional service.
In other words, it’s devotional service but not pure devotional service. Because the Lord
doesn’t do anything without the devotees. So if you don’t accept the Lord and the devotees
it can’t be pure devotional service. Because pure devotional service means it’s favorable for
Krsna without karma or jnana. Because there is some other purpose if it’s just God and
myself.
His worship is not devotional service in its complete form.
So it’s devotional service but not complete.
His worship is merely stepping into the entrance of the house of devotional service.
So he is in the house but only at the door, the entrance. He hasn’t gone into actually
where the interaction and everything is going on, the Lord and His devotees are. Because
you don’t hear of them hanging out at the door. When you are bored you go hang out at the
door.
The scriptures (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.84.13) explain:
"A human being who identifies this body made of three elements with the self, who
considers the by-products of the body to be his kinsmen, who considers the land of birth as
worshippable, and who goes to the place of pilgrimage simply to take bath, rather than meet
men of transcendental knowledge there, is to be considered as an ass or a cow."
"The meaning is this: Although in the beginning devotional service consists of worship
of the deity and nothing else, and although dry, materialistic logic is not recommended, for
it crushes the heart into powder, it is nevertheless necessary that one understand that the
Deity of the Lord and service to the Deity are pure and spiritual. All living entities in the
material world are spiritual by nature. Among these living entities those who are devotees of
Lord Krsna especially manifest their pure and spiritual nature. The devotee and Lord Krsna
are two different pure and spiritual identities. To understand their true spiritual natures one
must understand the relationships between the material world, the individual soul and Lord
Krsna. A person who understands these relationships and simultaneously worships the Deity
of Lord Krsna and serves the Lord's devotees acts rightly. When one faithfully worships the
spiritual truth in this way, it is said that he has "faith in the scriptures".
So this is the point before he was saying he didn’t study nicely, so that faith in the
scriptures won’t be there because it has to be complete. We see here he sees all living
entities as servants of the Lord, but that’s going to come by realization. But he at least
understands that is the principle. So if that’s there then those who are worshiping the Lord
then they are special. So that means you can’t compare them. They are always in a good
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place. You can say now we are getting standing back from it because it was very specific
question so you are showing the position of the neophyte compared to the madhyama and
uttama, and how it’s not that strong of a position. But when you put in the comparison of all
living entities we see that they are in a special position. So even the neophyte is special, so
we can’t treat them otherwise.
And then the Lord and the devotees are individuals eternally, because otherwise you
can say, ok, there is all living entities and they are in illusion, and those who have
understood the Absolute Truth and are trying to move in that direction they are special.
But then as they move forward then they’ll understand that we are all one and everything.
No, that they are always eternally different.
Then the next thing is so to understand the true nature then you must know the
philosophy of Krsna, of the living entity, and the material nature, and how they all connect
together. So knowing that, having that knowledge, worshiping the deity, and serving the
devotees, that person is considered properly situated, he has faith in the scriptures. They see
through the eyes of scriptures, sastra-caksus. So all those three need to be there.
Understanding the philosophy, worshiping the deity, associating and serving the devotees.
Those three are there then it’s strong. So that’s actually what one is studying. So that’s why
we see Prabhupada put deity worship, your study of deity worship is part of the Bhaktisastri
process.
A person who worships the deity of the Lord but does not understand the relationships
that exist between the various spiritual entities has only a materialistic kind of faith.
Because it’s something higher, it’s important, but it will be materialistic, because they
can’t explain it, so it’s just their sentiment. Sentiment is engaged and connected to Krsna,
but you are starting with a material sentiment. So it will be weak, because he can’t
philosophically explain it.
Devotee (5): …it’s in the temple or…standard in the house?
Maharaja: Wherever one is worshiping the deity, it doesn’t matter, Pancaratra covers both.
Although he stands at the entrance of the house of devotional service, his service is not
pure devotional service. That is the conclusion. A person thus standing at the entrance to
the house of devotional service is described in these words of the scriptures:
"A person who has accepted a Vaisnava initiation and who devotedly worships Lord
Visnu is said by the wise to be a Vaisnava. All others are not Vaisnavas."
So now here he is going with that was your questions yesterday is now in initiation, so
here then they are also including that process of initiation that it’s understood. So this is a
devotee. So previously speaking it was basically when someone was qualified basically at the
platform of the madhyama then they would give him initiation, that means the first and
second. Because there is quotes where Prabhupada says, someone with second initiation
then is to be considered a madhyama. But the thing is there was a standard for madhyama,
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and someone of that caliber got second initiation. So that was the standard before. So
therefore that’s the natural thing. They are well situated, they are properly situated, they are
connected, they are recognized.
So we see here he is also now making a distinction between those who are in devotional
service practicing devotional service. Because this is coming up next which doesn’t
necessarily mean so much to us is first generation. But you do have the thing what about
second generation? They are born in devotee families, they grew up in the kirtana and
taking prasada and all these things like that, so are they devotees? So they are devotees, but
they are classified specifically as neophytes. Because it’s when they take initiation that
means they have become serious, they are committed. Because that’s the point madhyama
means fixed in devotional service. So initiation means someone who is committed to the
process. And of course if someone accepts initiation for social status and stuff like that, oh,
my friends have I should get, then that’s a problem or can be. But in any case if they are in
good association even that problem will become beneficial, it will go away, it will be cleared
up.
So this element comes here because you have to remember they are speaking to people
who generationally come into these kind of families, so it has to be a consideration. We are
only now dealing with second generation. So after a few generations then it will become
more obvious.
So that means they are standing at the door, but basically if you want to get in you have
to get serious. Ok, you are born in a devotee family, nice. But unless you actually practice
what they are giving then what’s the meaning? So here he is saying all others are not
Vaisnava. So technically speaking they are saying the others are not though he has already
classified before that they are devotees, they are Vaisnavas. Someone who accepts the
Supreme Lord is a devotee. But technically they are not a devotee until they are initiated
because that means they are committed, they are serious. But then it says, well, but still
again they are not actually until, because the goal is trying to.
In other words, if he do something I got that, ok, now it’s done. Because some devotees
when they get initiated they think it’s done now. There is nothing more to do. No, now it
begins. It’s just like you are working really hard and you are getting good marks in school,
and then you send off your papers to a university to get into the university, and then they
are impressed with your resume, and you get entrance in the university. So now if you think,
ok, now it’s done, I am in the university. No, now you have four years of hard work.
So all goals are short-term goals until you get to the ultimate goal of Krsna. So becoming
involved in the devotional process that’s the first. Then being in there becoming good in
one’s sadhana and everything like that, being fixed, then is next. Then having associated
with devotees practiced the process and taking initiation. Then within that then becoming
very steady at that that one is always consistent. Then next is try to get a taste in Krsna
consciousness, get attachment for Krsna. Then you come to the platform of ecstatic
devotional service. And then that purpose is to get you to that complete attachment to
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Krsna. And then from there taking up the serious association of the eternal devotees of the
Lord, the internal associates. And then from there getting to prema. Once you got to there
then you can say now you have hit an eternal goal. Because getting initiation isn’t an
eternal goal. It’s part of the process on the path of eternity.
Devotee (4): Could he have the association of the eternal devotees of the Lord through
consciousness?
Maharaja: Can he have the eternal association of the eternal associates through
consciousness? Now is this regular consciousness or eternal consciousness?
Devotee (4): Eternal consciousness.
Maharaja: So can one through eternal consciousness have eternal association with the
eternal associates?
Devotee (4): Yes, the same nature. They have the same nature.
Maharaja: The same nature, so yes, you can. But you still have to be following the eternal
process to do that. Because eternal consciousness means you can distinguish between matter
and spirit. So you come to the liberated platform. But still relationship is a further step. In
other words, liberation is you understand I am. But the actual point is I am what? Ok, I am
Brahman, ok. But what kind of Brahman? Like we say we have a garden but then there are
also different aspects in that garden. There is plant garden, there is rock garden, there is
road in the garden, there is tree garden.
Devotee (4): Relationships.
Maharaja: So relationship is the next thing because you have to know who you are to have a
relationship. Just because you have that understanding doesn’t mean you are automatically
engaged in relationship. The person knows, yes, I am a father, but now he has to do
something to prove that he is a father, he has to act in that relationship. So that’s why then
this simply that the platform of eternal consciousness that’s the beginning.
"Persons born in families who generation after generation are initiated by their family
priest in the chanting of Visnu-mantras and who thus worship the deity of the Lord with
materialistic faith are neophyte (kanistha) or materialistic devotees. They are not pure
devotees. Over them the shadow of devotional service is strongly cast. However, the
reflection of devotional service is not manifested in them,
The shadow of devotional service, that’s why bhaktyabhasa.
for the reflection of devotional service is counted among the offenses. Therefore they
who possess this reflection are not Vaisnavas.
What does this mean?
Devotee (3): It’s impersonalism
Maharaja: Oh, ok.
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However, from the shadow of devotional service may come a great good fortune, for
such a neophyte devotee may gradually become an intermediate (madhyama) and eventually
an advanced (uttama) devotee.
However that may be, persons at that stage of spiritual advancement are not yet pure
devotees. They may worship the Deity of the Lord with material faith and they may
manifest the ten signs of piety in dealing with ordinary persons.
The ten signs, the symptoms we gave before, 1. patience, 2. forgiveness, 3. self-control, 4.
honesty, 5. cleanliness, 6. sense-control, 7. knowledge, 8. wisdom, 9. truthfulness and 10. freedom
from anger. They may manifest that because you have to have these ten qualities to engage
nicely in varnasrama. This is just general varnasrama you need these ten qualities. Then
Narada Muni then describing varnasrama he gives I think 32 qualities or 30 qualities,
because it includes the devotional process, sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam… like this. So he
has these ten and then other qualities that are important in devotional service, which will
basically be details of these. In other words, within these you have…
Devotee (1): Maharaja, it mentions here that shadow of devotional service gives something
positive one can progress. And reflection is counted an offence devotees…
Maharaja: I am not exactly sure, he is saying it’s the impersonal.
Devotee (3): …
Maharaja: Ok, because sometimes in I can think it’s something here because we don’t have
the original language. There is something not quite, what do they mean by reflection here?
That reflection may mean you just go through the process of it but don’t actually have any
devotion. Just like here you have the reflection, like mother Yasoda deals with Krsna, that is
reflected here a mother deals with the child, that has nothing to do with Krsna. But the
shadow you get the idea it’s the actual shadow of devotional service. So the reflection it can
be something that it’s not actually connected.
Devotee (1): Maybe you engage in devotional service with a desire of liberation.
Maharaja: Could be, desire for liberation or karma or just something else. In other words,
you are doing the devotional process but there is no actual interest in devotion to Krsna,
you are just following the process to get. Like I know in South India there is a temple they
are all hardcore Mayavadis but they have one of the most opulent and nicely arranged
processes of deity worship that you’ll see in any major temple. There are major festivals to
the deity, it’s a Krsna deity, they go out take Him around, do everything with Him. But they
are all Mayavadis. But they practice devotional service to get impersonal liberation.
Devotee (1): So they are kind of really fixed in devotional service…
Maharaja: They know it’s the best process to come to that platform. They are convinced of
that. But there is still their ultimate goal is impersonalism. While other impersonalists in
South will say that that’s just sentiment, there is no need to do that, just intellect. But the
point is according to their own philosophy the intellect is just as much illusion as sentiment.
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But somehow or another because they are on the material platform intellect is better than
sentiment because it’s closer to getting out of the material world, so in that way it’s better,
but it’s still a mundane consideration. So why do they connect those, that’s a problem. It’s
just for their own prestige.
Devotee (1): It may be also that consider the name of Visnu, Brahma, and Siva to be equal,
for them it’s everything the same, so it will be offence.
Maharaja: Yes, that will be offence. Ultimately guru, they’ll go beyond guru. So it looks like
devotional service but it’s not, that’s all I can think of. So it generally will be connected with
karma or jnana. Also the reflection is much of the time how it’s referred to the material
world, the glaring reflection. So it’s more the glare that’s the problem.
Devotee (6): I found a…reflected distorted semblance of bhakti.
Maharaja: Reflected distorted semblance of bhakti.
Devotee (6): Sanskrit it’s pratibimba-bhakti.
Maharaja: Oh, pratibimba, ok. And the other one would be?
Devotee (6): Chaya.
Maharaja: Chaya, ok. Ok, so chaya would be a shadow, so it’s there but it’s just, in other
words, one has a lot of material desires but it’s actually a bona fide path. While pratibimba
will be it looks like but it’s not actually connected. I think the example is also given of the
Mayavadis there specifically. Is this Haridasa Thakura?
Devotee (6): This is another version of…
Maharaja: Oh, another version, ok.
Devotee (1): But it discusses in Harinama-cintamani.
Maharaja: Yes, in Harinama-cintamani it gives a lot of discussion on this. Because in here he
didn’t use the, he only sometimes uses the Sanskrit. It’s better if he more regularly uses it
then you get used to the terminology. Because it’s an analytical discussion, so it’s good to
know the analytical terms. Oh, it comes up here, a little bit later, chaya. I am not sure if he
uses pratibimba, no. The chaya he brings up. (end of lecture)
Devotee (7): We are going to break our Purusottama-vrata tomorrow.

Maharaja: I heard today was the last day or yesterday was the last day. I guess there are
various opinions on it. I didn’t look myself.
Devotee (7): So we are hoping…charity or some donation. So one of the things mentioned
were cloth. So would you like some cloth which we can get somewhere around here?
Maharaja: Cloth meaning?
Devotee (7): Any cloth which you wear or…
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Maharaja: I generally use silk, because when I wear cotton I always rip it, it’s not strong
enough, somehow or another…I have always tried it. But as soon as I put it on and within
three steps then it catches and it rips, and silk somehow or another that’s.
Devotee (7): Is this available somewhere here?
Maharaja: Yes, Vaikuntha-bandhu has it.
Devotee (7): Vaikuntha?
Maharaja: Well, now it’s called what is it called now? Vaikuntha-pati now. That store in the
courtyard.
Devotee (7): And what is it called?
Maharaja: It’s called matka.
Devotee (7): Matka, matka silk.
Maharaja: Matka silk… I never quite understood silk dhoti, cotton shirt? I have seen cotton
dhoti, silk shirt.
Devotee (1): ...
Maharaja: No, I am talking in India with Indians. Westerners will wear all kinds of
interesting combinations. Silk and a gamcha or all kinds of farout things they do. Because
it’s generally considered as you go up it gets more valuable. It’s like you wouldn’t wear a silk
dhoti and a cotton chaddar. You can probably wear a cotton dhoti and a silk chaddar. So
like that.
Devotee (1): ...shirt you need to especially in such a heat you need to change.
Maharaja: No, I am saying it would be practical…I am just saying it’s just funny.
Devotee (7): Is there any particular sweet you prefer? Probably maha-prasada you like
something?
Maharaja: Anything that’s maha-prasada is good.
Devotee (1): A question about Saligrama-sila. Is it worshiped the same as Krsna and
Radharani?
Maharaja: Not that I know of. Saligrama is Saligrama. Because it’s a portion of the body of
Lord Visnu, it’s directly Visnu, there is no installation of Silas. The spiritual master and
Silas there is no installation ceremony.
Devotee (1): Because Giriraja you see, they worship Giriraja often as Radharani and Krsna
together.
Maharaja: That you’ll see sometimes but generally that’s specific Radharani-silas, I mean
Radharani a specific color.
Devotee (1): Saligrama…
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Maharaja: Saligrama is Visnu, there is no question of Radharani there.
Devotee (1): You can worship them like one Saligrama as Radha-Krsna together?
Maharaja: That you can do. You can do. You can use the mantra. Means if your deity Radha
and Krsna then the Saligrama for the deity no matter what form He is then when you do
the puja then you would use the Radha-Krsna mantras. Because He is accepting the worship
on behalf of the deities because you are doing the whole. Let’s say if you have a temple there
is Radha and Krsna altar, you have the Saligrama there, then you would worship with
Radha-Krsna mantra there.
Devotee (1): And at home if you it depends on your sentiment, or?
Maharaja: Yes…in other words…yes, like that.
Devotee (1): What would be the standard to worship…
Maharaja: 16 items.
Devotee (1): 16… items.
Maharaja: Yes, 16, I mean it’s like you can’t do less than that for a Saligrama. That’s the
point He comes out small so you can do all that.
Devotee (1): You can do with water…
Maharaja: Yes, but you have to do it.
Devotee (1): But then worship guru, worship Gauranga. Everybody 16…items?
Maharaja: That you can if you want you can do less than the others, but generally there
is…standard…You are worshiping Saligrama already with 16 items, it’s not difficult to
worship guru and Gauranga... Because it’s just done with water. You use the paraphernalia
for the Sila but you only use water for guru and Gauranga.
Devotee (1): You don’t use water for…
Maharaja: I said you use water for guru and Gauranga but for Saligrama then you have the
paraphernalia.
Devotee (1): But not always 16 items.
Maharaja: Are we talking about the same subject here? Do you know deity worship?
Devotee (1): I am getting into it.
Maharaja: So the point is let’s say you are offering a lamp. You don’t have a lamp when you
are offering Saligrama? You don’t have…? You don’t have bhoga? You don’t have
ornaments? You don’t have tulasi? You don’t have flowers? You are not actually bathing
Him?
Devotee (1): I do, but I don’t have for example…
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Maharaja: There is no asana. You can’t fold your hands and say svatatam. So acamana is
water, argya (?) is water. Madhupak if you have it then you’ll offer that, but if not then it
can also be done with water.
Devotee (1): Ornaments also if you don’t have…
Maharaja: Generally one would have ornaments. But even if one doesn’t, yes, then one just
offers. But then in manasa-puja you should offer.
Devotee (1): That’s done separate manasa-puja?
Maharaja: That’s done before the main puja. After you have set up the paraphernalia and
worship guru and Gauranga then you do manasa-puja, then you do the actual external puja.
Devotee (1): Last question was regarding Mayapura…some devotees are buying land here
and selling…you get kind of exposed to these offers and you get involved in different…may
even some business, and you hear that…
Maharaja: So you want to know if you can get involved in very large cooperate?
Devotee (1): …doing business in the holy dhama or on the holy dhama.
Maharaja: One has to be very, very careful how you are looking at it. Do…some offers to
impress…build huge cooperate community…?
Devotee (1): Something, it’s kind of I feel also it’s just to have a proper perspective.
Maharaja: The perspective is a matter of understanding what you are dealing with here. You
are dealing in the dhama. So what would be the appropriate consciousness that you have to
see.
Devotee (1): So you can do with improper consciousness, you can do it in proper
consciousness.
Maharaja: Yes, but it depends upon what you are doing. Providing proper facility, good
facility, or you are just doing whatever you can to make money? If you are honestly
providing good facility for devotees then that’s one thing. So the quality and standard of the
building of the thing, or the layout. It’s for devotees so it should be considered, will it
actually be useful for them to live and stuff like that.
Devotee (8): The question is about in one being so-called eternal neophyte without
initiation but wants that pure devotion to God.
Maharaja: The thing is it’s just like this would you ever have a pure eternal uncommitted
relationship with a woman?
Devotee (8): …
Maharaja: So the point is if you were going to have an eternal commitment to a relationship
with a woman?
Devotee (8): No, with women without any connection with women. So I already…
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Maharaja: No, no, I am giving an example that if you wanted to have a relationship with a
woman in any capacity could you do it by not being committed to the relationship? Would a
woman agree to be a friend with you if you weren’t committed to the relationship?
Devotee (8): Maybe.
Maharaja: Maybe, so that would be saying, do dogs fly? Go ahead, they maybe. Do fish sing
Elvis Presley songs? So in other words, what does that mean an eternal uncommitted
relationship? What’s the basis of the relationship if there is no commitment? What’s the
basis? What is the foundation?
Devotee (1): Your own pleasure.
Maharaja: Yes, then it’s just you don’t want to commit because it means work, you have to
emotions and all these kind of things. So in other words, the point is one takes up the
devotional process, associates with the devotees, practices the devotional service, and at
your own speed then you commit yourself to the process. So don’t try to work out a
philosophy how you’ll eternally stay uninitiated, don’t worry about that. Worry about how
to get involved in the process. If you don’t feel like initiation now, don’t worry about that.
Worry about the process.
Devotee (8): Not worrying about initiation, and my question wasn’t really related to a
woman.
Maharaja: I gave an example, it’s just like that. But the point is God, how you are going to go
on without surrendering? How can you eternally go on and not surrender to God since you
are part and parcel of God?
Devotee (8): I am surrendering…
Maharaja: You are surrendering, but you said you want to keep an eternal relationship of
not being initiated. You want to eternally be a neophyte.
Devotee (8): I haven’t told that, I asked if somehow I stay uninitiated can I achieve
salvation…?
Maharaja: The point is why would one want to stay uninitiated? What would be the
purpose? What would be the motive?
Devotee (8): Just as you said previously, you have to be initiated as you are fully ready for it.
If you are just initiated…
Maharaja: Yes, but then the point is why ask that question? Because it’s a matter of when
you are ready for it, not a matter of whether it’s a process or not? It’s just like this, let us say
you are not hungry now but to discuss the point of never getting hungry would that be real?
Ok, so that example worked better. So if you are not interested now don’t worry about it.
But why discuss that as a point of thing? Discuss how can I get more involved and more
absorbed in devotional service, that’s what you want to do.
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Because neophyte means more committed to the material world than to his service to
God. Madhyama means more committed to service to God than his material conditioning.
Uttama means more committed to God, no material conditioning, but hasn’t developed that
100% devotion yet. And then prema means 100% devotion. So it’s a natural process, a
natural development. So it’s just a matter of time. Somebody moves through quicker,
somebody moves through slower. That’s not the question. The point is to understand that
one should move through. Otherwise what’s the meaning of being something less? Would
you be satisfied with not being 100% happy?
Devotee (8): It depends.
Maharaja: It depends on what?
Devotee (8): It depends on many things.
Maharaja: Many things, so you always when you do, like you go to a party and you don’t
want to be fully happy at the party, you want to keep yourself a little bit not quite happy. Or
when you are sitting with good friends you never let it get too close to you really being
happy with the association. You always want to keep it a little bit back from really becoming
really good.
Devotee (8): Unless my happiness is, it’s my happiness, there is only my happiness, but I am
connected somehow to…
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (8): So if my happiness would serve them somehow.
Maharaja: Yes, but the point is but if they are happy you are happy. So the point is if God is
happy everybody is happy. Just like you have a plant you put water on the root all the leaves
become happy. But if you water only the leaves the plant doesn’t become happy. So
ultimately no leaf is happy. So being part and parcel of God, God being everything,
therefore we are part of Him, so when we serve Him we are happy and everybody else is
happy.
Devotee (8): …
Maharaja: Yes, but it’s possible. (end)
May 14, 2010

Maharaja:
However that may be, persons at that stage of spiritual advancement are not yet pure
devotees. They may worship the Deity of the Lord with material faith and they may
manifest the ten signs of piety in dealing with ordinary persons. Still, the scriptures'
descriptions of the devotees' ways are not meant to describe them. To convert non-devotees
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into devotees is not in their power. The ways of the intermediate (madhyama) devotees are
described in these words (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.46):
"An intermediate, second-class devotee shows love for the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, is friendly to all devotees, and is very merciful to neophytes and ignorant people.
The intermediate devotee neglects those who are envious of devotional service."
The behavior described in this verse is the behavior of one who follows the eternal
religion. Temporary or material activities are not described here. In a Vaisnava's life such
behavior must be followed. Other kinds of behavior, as long as they do not contradict this
behavior, may be adopted when necessary.
In other words, this is your basic principles, this is what’s being given by the scriptures in
here specifically Eleventh Canto, so Krsna Himself, that what is to be done or not done, this
is the essential. Then from here one can expand. Otherwise one has to know what the
priorities are, one has to know what it is that one is trying to accomplish, what are your
methods. Otherwise there is so many processes. So here he is saying the ways of the
intermediate devotee, means this is the way, showing that devotion to the Supreme Lord. So
he mentioned before that worship of the devotees, studying of the scriptures, worship of the
deity, so that’s nicely established, and then after that.
Could you go up and check why they have to be crazy now? Class has started and if they
can be quiet that would be really appreciated.
So this is the essential thing, other qualities are in support of this. If they don’t
contradict this they are fine. But if they do contradict it, it doesn’t matter how nice they are
it’s not actually very useful. That’s the principle that’s given. So that is what is desired. So
we see for the neophyte then it’s defined because he doesn’t do certain activities.
What did they say?
Devotee (1): No reply.
Maharaja: No reply. Ok, then I’ll do it… That’s the problem with these paka-buildings,
everything echoes, so they are not actually meant for nicely living in, or you really have to
get a gentleman to live in them, one or the other. But the grass huts even if they are there
yelling and screaming on one side it doesn’t bother you. So it’s much more suitable for the
kids. Because they have such high squeaky voices and it’s going to be a disturbance anyway.
What he is pointing out what are the priorities, so for a madhyama to worship the
Supreme Lord, here make friends with the devotees, is friendly to all devotees, and is very
merciful to neophytes and ignorant people, and completely avoids those who are envious of
devotional service. That’s essential, that’s his behavior, that’s his etiquette. Then from that
then anything else that is favorable to that is added. But if it doesn’t enhance this it’s not
actually worthwhile. Otherwise then how do you show?
Let’s take for example friendly to all devotees, so friendship means, what is that, dadäti
pratigåhëäti guhyam äkhyäti påcchati bhuìkte bhojayate. So you have these things, giving
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in charity, exchanging gifts and all that. But now if we make rules you can’t exchange gifts
and you can’t give to this that, it’s all go to the temple president, then you right there cut
out one third of Vaisnava interaction. Guhyam äkhyäti påcchati, that you can talk between
devotees, but in the name of truth everybody has to know everything. Like I should know
like I should know what color was the temple president’s stool that he passed yesterday. Of
course, he won’t say because that’s there but anybody else that you should know about. So
right there that’s two third is gone in the name of truth. And then the last point, bhuìkte
bhojayate, but we are busy working out that it’s got to be this healthy, or it can’t be sugar, it
can’t be ghee, it can’t be this, it can’t be taste, it can’t be nothing. And so what’s left off
Vaisnava interaction? You tell me. And then people wonder why there is no community.
Because there is nothing to base a community on. Because it’s these three things.
So that’s the meaning of if you don’t study the sastras you won’t know what is the
standard of devotional service, therefore nothing will work. You can have all the meetings
you like, get together thousands of people, have them all email each other very nicely, have
conference calls, you still get nothing. Why? Because these three principles aren’t there.
The same with a madhyama, these four principles aren’t there, it’s not a madhyama. And if
the neophyte doesn’t take up seriously studying and respecting devotees he’ll never stop
being a neophyte. So that’s why these things are given, not just, ok, it’s another list, ok, been
there done that, now let’s get down to the reality of life. No, this is reality, this is the
essential. You don’t breathe you die. But we don’t start whole societies about breathing.
Because it’s so essential it’s just done. You have committees for things that aren’t essential.
Because if the committee does something or doesn’t do anything it doesn’t really matter, life
goes on. But if it’s a matter of you breathing or not would they get together a committee?
No, there is no time for it. You just have to do it.
So that’s why you have to be very, very careful and know what is the standard. Then
based on that then you can add anything to it. So if the prasada enhances it everyone is able
to interact, the ways of dealing, whatever it is, that doesn’t matter. That’s doesn’t matter.
Because the point is it doesn’t really matter if it’s Indian cooking or Western cooking, what
matter is what’s the environment you serve in? Is it cooked properly? Is it served properly? Is
the environment for eating proper? That’s more important, but that’s not noticed. People
will fight over if it’s Indian or Western, or whether it’s got ghee in it or not, or sugar in it or
not, or dairy products or not. What has that got to do with reality? Reality is Vaisnava
etiquette. How do you sit, eat, interact? That’s what reality. What you are sitting and eating
in that’s a secondary thing. But you don’t know how to do that you don’t have anything, you
don’t have relationships.
Animals eat what’s healthy for them, they avoid what’s not healthy for them, and that’s
all. If that’s what you want then animal society that’s easy to get. We are born animals. You
have to learn to be human. Human is not default. We make the mistake to think human is
default. No, human is endeavor. Animal is default.
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Devotee (2): ...we…not feel enemy…speak badly about them but still some feeling is there.
How do we heal that? We just follow the devotional process and wait until it heals, or?
Maharaja: Means in dealing with someone deals with you badly how do you respond to that?
And in trying to forgive and move on then those feelings that aren’t there, how do you deal?
So, of course, time is always a wonderful thing. With time then everything moves on.
Because the principle is that the living entity is by nature ananda, so they are happiness. So
anything that’s not happy in the way of let’s say it doesn’t generate an auspicious experience
then the soul forgets about it with time because it’s not its nature.
It’s just like let’s say some old geezers are sitting around, and they are talking about back
when they were in their 20s and they were crazy doing this that, and there might be a
situation that was very bad at the time. They are either talking about when they were in the
great war or whatever it is that was the topic. But at the time then it was a very disturbing
and this and that, and probably at that time they would have talked like that. But then now,
50, 60, 70 years later they just look back and the nice things about it or they don’t worry
about the mud in the trenches, but the camaraderie that was there or this and that, or
something funny that somebody did. They are sitting in the trenches and somebody did
something funny, at the time it didn’t mean much, but later on that’s what they remember,
they forget everything else. Why? Because the soul by nature cannot relate to unhappiness.
So therefore time everything will go as long as you want it. If you cultivate it, of course, they
can remain for a long time. But if you are trying to get rid of it then that will happen.
The other thing is what is more inspiring, if someone does something to you and you
respond back in a bad way, then they’ll get a reaction and you’ll get a reaction. Now if they
have done something to you but you don’t respond back they get a reaction, you don’t get a
reaction. Now they do something to you and then you forgive them and you are actually
hoping for their, act as a wellwisher, then you both get benefit.
Devotee (2): …harder.
Maharaja: It’s harder, but that’s the standard. It’s because wellwishing it’s not sentimental,
the point is why does somebody do something improper?
Devotee (2): Because they are suffering.
Maharaja: They are suffering, yes.
Devotee (3): Illusion.
Maharaja: Illusion, yes, so it’s not actually real what they are doing. In their mind it’s very
important to them, they take it as a reality, but it’s not, it’s illusion. So their particular
conditioning at the time drives them to do very unique things. So it’s a disturbance, but at
the same time it’s not that they actually are in control of not doing that. They may feel they
are in control, oh, it’s my decision, but no, it’s the modes of nature. So philosophically it can
be appreciated that that’s not actually the real person. The real person is actually a devotee.
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Like we said all souls are devotees of Krsna, all souls. So therefore someone who acts in
that capacity that’s special. Someone who doesn’t that’s common for the material world. If
you are walking down the road and a dog comes up starts barking at you, it’s not so much
that you feel offended, it’s just it’s an annoyance, it’s just dogs bark.
So in other words, you know the standard and then you try to do the best you can. First
of all try to keep from when they do something completely going and doing something of an
equal nature back. Then it’s like trying to move on from it. But then the thing is
understanding that, the point is if they become, looking for the welfare it’s not a matter of
sentiment in that it’s just good for them. No, if they become God conscious they’ll stop
doing that. So not only, because when they are bothering you they are bothering themselves
also. Because one, they are living in a hellish environment, and two, they create further
hellish situations for themselves. Therefore if they become Krsna conscious all that goes
away. So you don’t get bothered any more and they get benefited. So that’s the standard.
But it doesn’t mean that, those who are envious of devotional service you just neglect
them. You stay out of the way. It’s not that you hate them, you just neglect them. It’s just
this soul is at this point too ignorant of these things, too absorbed in their attachments, so
you just don’t get involved. You don’t give them attention. Because also attention, if they do
have bad feelings, by giving them also a negative attention that grows their feelings, the
taste that they want to get, the negative taste it enhances that, it nourishes that. While if
you just, because they expect you to do that. They do something to you and you are angry
back, they can feel comfortable. But they behave badly with you and you don’t behave badly
back, though you are not foolish, because here is you neglect, but it’s not that means you
don’t follow etiquette. You bump into him, you are pleasant and nice, but then you go. And
so they don’t know what to do with that. That annoys them more. Because they expect they
got angry with you, you get angry back. You don’t get angry, they don’t know what to do
with this. So that means they themselves then have to make adjustments in their own life.
Means if you get angry back they can stay just the way they are. But if you don’t they have
to adjust their own life, that’s uncomfortable for them. But it makes them think, it makes
them aware.
Devotee (4): If in a situation that you come again and again in conflict or in
misunderstanding with the same person and the pattern is always the same. You forgive and
forget. You come again, again the same story has started…
Maharaja: But it says, so then you stay away.
Devotee (4): Even if you are situated near you just avoid.
Maharaja: You just avoid. It’s possible. You have a husband and wife, they are upset with
each other, and they are living in a very small place. They can somehow or another avoid
each other in the house. So it’s not something you can’t do.
The point is it doesn’t mean that you are not pleasant on interaction. But it doesn’t
mean you interact. They walk by and haribol. Haribol, and then like that, that’s it. It’s just
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so basic etiquette is followed. It’s just you don’t go up, because you have forgiven him doesn’t
mean that you go up to him and hi, hey, what’s going on? You don’t have to do any of that.
So if you end up somehow or another doing something with him or this or that you just stick
to the service. And those areas that you know are points of contention you just don’t allow
it to go that direction. If they always like to get you angry you just don’t go there. And if
they try to engage you, you just walk off, don’t say anything.
Devotee (5): Can you say that that saying you should actually be forgiven but not forget.
Maharaja: It’s not a matter of, see, forgiven, forget. Forgive means, ok, you let it go on. But
forget is you still hold something. Here it doesn’t mean what I am talking about here that
you don’t, it’s not the matter of not forgetting, means you are aware of the situation.
The dog bit you, but they are a dog. But it doesn’t mean you don’t remember he bites
and then you take a different path or bring a stick or wear very thick pants or whatever is
going to work. Soak your pants in karela juice, so when he bites you.
Devotee (5): It shouldn’t be forgiven, forget him. So you forgive but don’t forget.
Maharaja: No, but the don’t forget here, see, the problem is you are using a Western phrase,
forgive and forget, but there the forget means you don’t even remember that anything
happened.
Devotee (5): It shouldn’t be like that.
Maharaja: You are crossing lines here. Because by using the term don’t forget then you are
keeping it in a negative connotation. Because here forgive and forget is positive in that you
have moved on and there is no history. But it doesn’t mean you are not smart. Forget means
the mind forgets. But it doesn’t mean the intelligence isn’t aware that this person is trouble
in these situations, so you avoid the trouble. But it’s not a matter of them personally. It’s just
a matter of this is the modes of nature this person is in, this is the way they act. Ants crawl
around and bite, dogs bark and bite, this person sits there and incites arguments and then
tries to make themselves feel better that they are better than anybody else because the other
person got angry. It’s a different thing. You can’t use this. It’s just like saying but I want to
use my thermometer to tell if the potatoes are roasted enough. It won’t work. One is color,
the other is temperature.
So it’s a matter of forgiveness means that you don’t have any requirements of
retribution. But it doesn’t mean that you are not aware of the person’s nature and deal
accordingly according to that nature. That’s the problem with this like what he is talking
about, he is talking about forgive and forget. But the problem is it’s a sentimental concept.
It’s a good concept, but it’s not complete. Forgive and forget means you don’t worry, there is
no history, you are not trying to see that anything that they are getting some reaction or
someone else this that, but at the same time you know that this person has his nature, so in
this situation unless you see with time it’s changed you don’t deal with him in that way. You
don’t get close to them or you don’t put yourself in a position of vulnerability, you just don’t
do it. Because they are not qualified to handle that.
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Just like telling the truth you can only tell to people who is honest. Truth can only be
spoken to honest people. You speak truth to someone who is not honest they’ll use it
dishonestly. So therefore people who are demanding that you tell truth, first they have to
prove that they are trustworthy, that they are actually honest people that you can surrender
to. They are demanding surrender, but are they qualified for that?
Just like Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, then Bhaktivinoda Thakura his father his
diksa-guru is Bipin Bihari Goswami, but he is a caste Goswami, so he is not actually a well
situated Vaisnava, but bona fide line in that the mantra is connected. But otherwise as far as
spiritual understanding he doesn’t have any really. The point is he is connected to the line.
So then when he would come to the house Bhaktivinoda Thakura would offer his
obeisances, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati wouldn’t offer his obeisances. Because he is a caste
Goswami, he is not obliged. But at the same time because Bhaktivinoda Thakura has taken
initiation from him, therefore he is obliged. So then Bipin Bihari complained to
Bhaktivinoda why is it your son is not offering obeisances? And his comment was, can he
digest it? Can he digest it? Means I, the devotee that I am on my platform, I offer obeisances
to him on a platform he is not because he demands it, can he digest that obeisances? So
Bhaktivinoda dropped it, Bipin Bihari dropped it.
Devotee (5): He said to him can you digest it, to Bipin Bihari?
Maharaja: He said to Bhaktivinoda Thakura, maybe he said it indirectly, but whichever he
said it to Bhaktivinoda Thakura or Bipin Bihari what does it matter?
Devotee (5): Who says it?
Maharaja: Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura he said it regarding Bipin Bihari Goswami’s
expectation that he would offer him respects because he is his father’s guru.
Devotee (5): He said can he digest my obeisances?
Maharaja: Yes.
Devotee (5): Oh, I understand.
Maharaja: Ok.
So the point is the qualification, because truth needs qualification. Facts and figures you
can go first grade and get that. So if that’s what they want then hey, why. But if they want
actual personal things then they have to be personally qualified to be able to deal with it. So
therefore in this way then these other persons that if they don’t behave properly there is no
obligation to closely deal with them.
Devotee (5): …because that’s interested, right now…I was reading yesterday…transparency
in management…
Maharaja: Transparency in management but the point is what does it mean transparency in
management? What does transparency mean? It sounds good.
Devotee (5): …
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Maharaja: So what is the detail? Make the list of the details. Do they want to know how
much salt is put on the thing or how many squares of toilet paper did he use or what was the
volume of stuff that came off his tongue? What do they mean?
Devotee (4): …how exactly every cent how it’s spent…
Maharaja: Every cent how it’s spent, but one, do they know money in the first place? Two,
can they even make money? Three, do they even know how to spend money?
Devotee (4): …
Maharaja: It’s not easy to know how to either make money or spend money.
Devotee (5): …they have no experience in management…
Maharaja: Yes, people who, so that’s the whole thing, so what is the basis of the
transparency? It’s based on their lack of security because they feel insecure so they are trying
to make themselves feel secure, but that’s not the way to do it. They are not in a position to
do that. Because just as they want to absolutely, if they want to absolutely control authority,
authority should be able to reciprocate and absolutely control them. It’s reciprocal. But they
don’t want that. Because then they want the management by the people. Ok, but are the
people qualified for the management? Do they know what they are dealing with? That’s the
problem. So they are trying to put themselves in a senior position, but then if you are in a
senior position, one, you have to have knowledge, two, you have to be detached, because you
are not the one doing it.
Let’s say you are talking in this case about a temple president. So the temple president is
the one that actually has to manage. So if he actually has to manage then, one, are we
talking here about where is the principle of respect for the authority, respect for the
individual? Is the temple president an individual? Does he have any individual rights? Or
now because he is part of the institution he doesn’t. But then in the same way that he
doesn’t neither does all the other members of the temple. It goes both ways. You can’t just
keep what you want and lose what you want. It’s a package. The chicken comes with both
ends. It lays eggs but it also eats and makes noise.
So therefore is there the element of respect, which I doubt is there? Because if there was
respect for authority they wouldn’t be using words like transparency. They are all lofty
liberal terms that actually have no substance. Because what does transparency mean? They
can’t really define it. And the same transparency in management when it’s like in the case
you say it’s only they just want to know how the money is spent. I go out all day and collect,
so how do they spend it I would like to know. But what is your knowing about it actually
make any difference? What difference does it really make in my life? And if you say I am
collecting the money, but then that means you are collecting, that means it’s your money?
So that means you are collecting money for the temple and it’s completely sakama. It’s all
your money and you are attached to it and want to control it. That’s sakama. What
happened to naiskarmya?
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Devotee (5): They are even collecting money for the temple basically. But I think they just
want to control…
Maharaja: Yes, the point is at some way it’s control, but the point is why they would control
there, why not the other way round? Why it only goes one way? Relationship is two ways.
And if they are talking about no relationship then they shouldn’t complain that the whole
process is impersonal because it’s their process.
Devotee (5): Is there a quote for that because going to that place it would be interesting to
mention to them that it says in the sastra to demand treat (?) from someone you would have
to also…
Maharaja: It’s a matter of it’s like this, what kind of quote you want to do? On Thursday
afternoon at 4.30 while we are all sitting around at the table drinking lassis then if this
person says this then you say that. That’s the problem, sastra takes brains.
In other words, when are you forgiven of offences? Let us say you have done some
serious sin. Going and telling to the public that you have done this sin, are you freed from
the reaction of that sin, are you purified? No, you have to go to an assembly of qualified
brahmanas and say it. That’s your evidence. That’s Manu. But this kind of evidence doesn’t
fly with neophytes who have never studied the sastras in a systematic way. They just don’t
like these. It has to be like that. No, in this city at this time and in this place when this guy
did this then if it doesn’t say that then I am not listening to it. There is no brains here,
because they haven’t systematically studied. Right there, who do you go to?
Because in this it also says that when you are dealing with management, the first thing
in management, you know the first thing in management that’s dealt with in both dharma-
sastra and in artha-sastra, what’s the first point that’s dealt with?
Devotee (5): Qualification of…
Maharaja: Yes, of course, basic qualification, but as far as he’d start getting into interaction.
Devotee (6): Relation?
Maharaja: No, that’s another thing. I am saying what he does like when he’d start discussing
the behavior and qualifications of king in the Seventh Chapter or when artha-sastra just
starting with that. The first thing they discuss is respect for authority, what is authority,
how you have to have qualified brahmanas, you have to respect. That’s the first thing. You
don’t have respect for authority you cannot be an administrator. And if you don’t have that
you can’t even question it. Means if you want to question, you want to control authority,
you can do that, but you have to be a brahmana. And a brahmana controls by standards, not
by management. And so the activity is still left in the hand of the manager, in this case the
temple president, and the good result is his and the bad result is his. The brahmana is above
that. So they are either putting themselves above it, and if they are obove it then they have
to be detached, it’s not theirs, it has to be according to sastra, and they have to be spiritually
qualified. And if they are putting themselves below it then they have to respect authority.
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But they want to have the control as if they were above like brahmanas but have the
lack of respect like they are a bunch of sudras. That’s cheating. That’s not transparency,
that’s down right falsity. So they talk all this transparency but they themselves are cheaters.
Because the point is…go to authority and just make your specific point. We feel that he is
not spending the money properly. We are giving donations to the temple and we feel that
it’s not being spent in the proper way. Can you look into this? And if they look into it, it
goes nice, great. If they don’t look into it, stop giving donations. It’s your donation, you
don’t like it, don’t. If you want to still give donations, hey, there is plenty of other temples.
Technically speaking according to sastra there is no rule that you are in one city you can’t
give a donation to another city. Temple presidents, of course, want to change this, but that’s
because they have never read sastra. That’s all. Someone who hasn’t read sastra will say
these things and make these in the point, and make economics the basis of management, but
that’s a businessman. Businessmen don’t run society, they run villages where you farm. But
they don’t run bigger than that. That’s ksatriyas and brahmanas. So someone should know if
their only purview of everything is economics they are vaisyas. And if they can’t act in that
detached way, they can’t base it on sastra and all that. You have brahmanas who are expert
in economics. But they’ll act from that position.
So that’s the point of varnasrama. Varnasrama means being responsible. The reason
devotees don’t like varnasrama is you actually have to be responsible. You have to say these
are my duties and I do them. And if they go nice, great. And if they don’t, I made a mistake.
They just want to pick and choose. They want to have the personal authority in everything
of a brahmana but they don’t want to know the sastras. They don’t want to be detached.
They don’t want to work for the other’s benefit even though they are going to get no benefit
from it themselves. They don’t get benefit they are not about to work. They want the
absolute administrative authority of a ksatriya and all the power and control, the money and
all that, but they don’t want to take the responsibility of doing it. They want someone else
to do it. That’s why you make a committee. Committees are very expert at getting someone
else to do something. But nothing ever gets done. They want all the money and be able to
make the money and it’s their money like the vaisyas. Even after they have given it to the
temple they still want to count it as their money. But they don’t want to give in charity,
they don’t want to pay their taxes, they don’t want to take care of brahmanas and other
things like this. And they want the lack of having to be responsible of sudras, and at the
same time, well, sudras if they don’t follow the rules nobody gets too upset and all that, so
they have low standards. So this is cheating. And we have discussed a pretty common
mentality.
Devotee (5): Sometimes they haven’t got the… mentality, but is that… read in the sastra…
Maharaja: They do, then they come up with bogus results, and therefore they get temporary
results in their management. Means the point is you understand the eternal principles, then
if you read modern management books you might pick up a few useful tips. But they are tips
in relationship to the actual eternal process. They don’t replace it, they are not parallel to it.
They are portions of it.
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It’s like you may read in some yoga book how if you do this or that then it’s this little tip
you didn’t know because that’s all they do in there. So they are nice. But you actually know
what yoga is for. But if you take that person’s opinion then you’ll never get anything.
So these persons may have some nice observations and some nice practical experience,
that’s great, you learn a quarter of your knowledge from others and their practical
experience. But to take it that their philosophy that they actually have some understanding
of the cosmos and how it works and the eternal laws of God, that why would you go to them?
So to not understand that, to have an opinion that you can’t understand whatever you need
on the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra platform, means your sastric, your administrative,
your economic, or your emotional or sense gratification, these things you can’t get from
Prabhupada’s books, this person doesn’t know what he is talking about, he is unread,
uninformed, and unfortunate. They are just unfortunate because they don’t know.
So this problem of this total lack of understanding actually the sastras and haven’t really
seriously read it, spending all their time doing all these other things that it says supposedly
practical, but what practical is getting done? It’s not getting done. If it was then why not?
Devotee (4): Regarding respect of authority as you said when you try to somebody gave a
donation and he wants to know how that’s spent, and he sees that the authority is not using
your, money is not spent in a way that it should be spent if you are a vaisya…
Maharaja: But vaisyas means you are a vaisya you would do things for profit, or maybe you
do a splash-up for your daughter’s wedding, or maybe you’ll make your house nice for a social
impression. But otherwise they won’t think about it.
Just like you go into the deity room. You look from outside the deity room and look in, it
looks fabulous. You go in the deity room and look around it’s disgusting. So why it’s like
that? Because it doesn’t mean anything to a vaisya that Krsna has to look at all these things.
But why do they do? Why spend money on something that no one will see? But somehow or
another part of that no one is Krsna. So that’s the weakness with vaisyas.
Devotee (4): Maybe it was not a proper example. Let’s say some intelligent person really sees
that authority is, not only money…
Maharaja: The point is if you want to say is there actually discrepancy in the authority
dealing with money and that how do you deal with it? But like we said you go to the
authorities above. You mention it to them, if they don’t respond, go to their authorities
above them or someone who could do something. And then if they do something, nice. And
if not, then you quit being involved, if you can’t handle it, quit being involved in the
economic process. So if you are a donor that lives outside, stop donating, or just give things,
or take responsibility for getting projects done. Because the temple president has to organize
somebody to manage it, you do it. You want to make a new deity outfit, you say, ok, I’ll get it
done. I’ll, my arrangements, I am going to India after six months, I’ll go, I’ll get it made, I’ll
get it shipped, I’ll get it put in. and then you pay all the expenses. Then it’s done, then you
know it’s gone done and everything like that. But you had to make the trouble. Plus there
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will be more devotional service than just giving cash. Or you don’t give. And if you are the
temple collector, one of the temple brahmacaris, then you just say, I can’t do this any more, I
don’t agree with this. And so like that, we will make you wash pots. Great, where are the
pots? Or you can’t stay in our temple. Great, go to another temple.
But why mess with the, you don’t mess with the structural hierarchy. That’s an eternal
principle. And since you are not the one, that’s not your duty, this is what it means by better
to do your own duty improperly than someone else’s properly. Because all it’s called for
transparency, truth, this and that it’s just a bunch of nonsense most of the time. People have
issues on certain things, there may be a problem, but then you take care of the problem, you
deal with the problem. They just deal this whole, so what does it mean truth? It’s generally
an opportunity for prajalpa, because you can discuss all the things that are going wrong and
that’s actually what you want, you want a forum for discussing all the nonsense. You don’t
actually want it, I mean you like it to be solved, but you are not willing to do it. You are not
willing to work it out.
So Bhaktivinoda Thakura mentions in the Bhaktyaloka that this desire to know the
details of nonsense that the devotees have gotten involved in is just another form of
prajalpa, even though it’s about devotees, it’s just prajalpa. If you are not in the position that
you are the one taking care of there is no need. Oh, I am a member of the society, I have the
right to know. Who said? Who said you have the right to know? You have the right to be
involved in the society and go back to Godhead. But if you say, well, I can’t go back to
Godhead unless I know all these things, then you are saying that by knowing all the
mundane details that is going to be your inspiration to go back to Godhead. It doesn’t make
any sense. Here is another expression of a neophyte devotee. All it is they are a busy body
and they are political and they just they need that. So then get involved in the
management, take it up yourself.
Prabhupada would…, somebody complains about the temple president, he said, ok, you
do it, and then he sent that temple president to another place to open up a new temple. You
already have a temple here and the devotees are complaining he is not a good temple
president. So the one that is making the most noise, ok, you’ll be the temple president, and
he takes that temple president and sends him to a new place to start a new center. Because it
doesn’t matter, even if you do everything perfect people won’t like it.
God runs this place perfectly and how many people have a good opinion about Him?
How many even give Him credit for running this place? They pick and choose where they’ll
give Him credit, where they won’t. And not only that, where He is to blame. So that’s God
and everything is perfect. So it’s not a matter of where there is smoke there is fire. It’s true,
where there is smoke there is fire. But the point is who perceived the smoke? Maybe they are
the source of fire. Because you can also read things into it, all kinds of things. So this whole
thing, they have all these little phrases like this and everybody becomes very lazy and they
don’t even think about these.
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This is what’s called dogma. If I use the word transparency no one should go, what do
you mean by transparency? What is transparent? What do you mean by transparent? I mean
we should under all be able to know what’s going. What do you mean who is all and what
means going on? What do you mean what exactly you want to know what is going on? You
want to know how many kernels of corn got stuck in the president’s teeth when he ate the
corn this morning? What do you want to know? But you have to understand. It’s dogma. It’s
just this nice little phrases that sound sweet on the ear, easy on the mind. Why? Because if
transparency that means there is no authority over me, I have actually control over them, I
am in the position of questioning, so I have an identity. And so therefore if it’s all good for
everybody I can also be benefited. You understand the basis?
This is the basis of all mundane philosophies, all of them. Be good, be nice, because then
we can cooperate together. There is only a very small portion that is hedonistic. Maybe a lot
of people practice it but it’s a very minor side philosophy. Most philosophers disregard it.
And only one or two have been prominent, but it never gets anywhere. So unless it has the
element that there is an authority and unless it has the element of overall good it won’t fly.
So therefore why is democracy popular? Overall authority is the people and it’s for the
purpose that everybody can life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Devotee (4): It’s still not…
Maharaja: Whatever it is, but it’s popular. Because the option is there. That’s the point, you
are still in the material world. So just because you have a philosophy of transparency doesn’t
mean the material world gets, you go back to Godhead. It may be, in other words, you trade
the iron ball and chain for a silver one. That’s all. Or maybe instead of an iron one it’s a
steel one. Or he has got a stainless steel one. He has got a galvanized steel one. This guy’s is,
he is cool, his is anodized. He is unique. The plastic one, but it’s recyclable.
You want to know the fun thing about the recyclable plastic? The chemical in it to make
it recyclable that if you reuse it yourself it’s actually poisonous. They make a bottle, they put
water in it, and you drink that, it’s fine. But if you wash it out and reuse it then it starts to
be going toxic. So all these reusable things you can’t reuse them. They can be recycled but
you can’t reuse them because of the nature of the…
Devotee (5): They make more money of it, but you can’t…
Maharaja: The problem is it’s not meant, that’s not the thing, they are only finding that out
now. They are figuring it’s it will have the same quality as the previous plastic.
You just can’t win. The material world stays the material world. So going back to
Godhead is another topic altogether. So if you want to be here and be nice and be good.
Great. But you are going to have to do that here. Being good means it’s connected to Krsna,
is what pleases Krsna. Nice means what’s in connection with Krsna. Truth means Krsna.
Transparency means parampara understanding of the philosophy.
Devotee (5): That’s transparency under the guru, transparent guru.
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Maharaja: Yes, but here it’s not, it’s only I see it, but the other person is a schmutz. In
transparency then the person above me is an authority, and a person above him is authority,
and a person above, so it’s all authority. But they are speaking and giving it as Krsna gave it.
That’s transparency. But in this thing of transparency why it works nicely for us
transparency, why it not works good for everybody? But for us because we all say transparent
via media, so there must be trans…, but what is that in? In spiritual matters. And the
material matters are in connection with Krsna. But here the transparency, …for
transparency, you probably look at the wording of their demands and it has nothing to do
with Krsna. It’s simply their own security. That’s the problem. It’s not that it’s the principle
that they are actually looking for isn’t a problem. It’s they don’t even know what they are
looking for.
Because then once you work out, ok, you know how the money was spent, what has that
got to do how the president is going to spend it? It’s his decision, it is not yours. You say, not
but we are giving the money we should decide. That’s not how charity works. And if that’s
the case that you want to decide and he is just supposed to carry out, he is a puppet, so now
you have turned the president from it’s supposed to be a ksatriya position into a sudra.
Great, then the person making decision has to take full responsibility. And if it works, great.
And if it doesn’t work, they have to take responsibility. But they are not about to take
responsibility. People want authority, no responsibility. And they are trying to give
responsibility to leadership with no authority. It’s cheating, it’s all cheating.
Devotee (4): …goes… vice versa? The man in charge he shouldn’t…subjects not in a specific
situation…?
Maharaja: Ask the specific, because otherwise it’s so general it’s unanswerable.
Devotee (4): … So how he knows that the people are doing proper practice?
Maharaja: He has his men to find out. The point is it’s like this, if the person is so honest
he’d be a brahmana. And ksatriyas don’t tax brahmanas. They tex people who aren’t honest.
So therefore he has his men to find out actually how much they make.
Devotee (4): This way it’s like this. He has to find out.
Maharaja: He has to find out, he is the authority. Best is that they are straight-forward and
honest. But how will they be honest? Why would a common person be honest to the
authority? Natually why would he be comfortable in being honest?
Devotee (4): He respects…
Maharaja: The respects the authority. So if the authority acts in such a way that people trust
him they’ll be honest. Because the point is you can’t be honest with someone who is not
honest.
I saw once, I have given the example before, he is running one of the ISKCON
businesses, and he bought something at a certain price and he was selling at a certain price,
and he would have a certain markup, a 20% markup or whatever it was, standard markup.
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Means standard business markup, not ISKCON markup. ISKCON markup is 1000%. It is
not 1000, it’s like why bother? 20%, it’s a standard in the business world generally markup on
retail. So then this other devotee who was a friend, a personal friend, he said, oh, how much
for this? And he says, I’ll give it to you for this much. What he was doing was cutting out his
20% and just the cost. Because I bought it for this and then transportation and all this and
then this and that, so it costs me 300. I am selling it for whatever it is, 350, but I’ll give it to
you for 300. And then this other says, no, no, you are actually that’s not the real price. I’ll
give you 250. And then the other person says, no, I am being honest this is what it is. No,
no, you are a businessman, you never be honest. So he says, do me one favor, you either pay
me 300 or take it for free as charity, but I am not selling it to you for 250, I am not losing
money. So either get my money or I give it to you in charity. And the second person could
never understand.
So that’s an example why in business because you are dealing with business people it’s
called satyanrta, half truth half lie. You can’t tell the full truth in business, because who you
are dealing with is not brahmanas. So it’s just the way it is. Diplomacy means you can’t fully
tell the truth, because the other party can’t handle it. Like we gave the example, he kid
asked the mother, does the medicine taste bad? She won’t say, yes, one of the most disgusting
medicines I have ever had. Means I would really have problem taking this. But I mean you
have to take it, but it’s really disgusting. Is she going to tell that to her four year old, even
her eight year old, even her husband? So therefore you say, yeah, it’s ok, it’s not bad, I have
tasted worse. You say something, it’s diplomatic.
In other words, what is the truth? Because here the transparency is it how it’s being
connected to Krsna is what they want? They want to know how it’s so subtly through
philosophy connected to Krsna that they can’t see it, so they want that transparency to
bring out how all that Second Canto technicalities is going on by the temple president
working and they just this common congregational devotee can’t see it and they just want to
explain, so they understand how the potency of the parampara is coming down through the
president and their service that’s there. No. They are just talking about I make money, I
want to know how he is spending. Bas. That’s it.
That’s not transparency, use another word. Just say, we feel that the account should be
available. Don’t use these terms transparency and try to make it into some lofty philosophy
that it’s not. There is a problem that you think he is spending, then look at his accounts.
You can say, we feel that those who actually give significant donations to the temple should
be able to on a regular basis see the actual accounts that are ok to be out. If there is some
other kind of thing that you can’t, then that’s another thing. But we want to be able to see
your common accounts. We feel that that’s our right. We know money, we are giving
siginificant money, so we want to see that it’s spent properly. And what’s the purpose of it?
Once they find out, then what? Then what are they going to do? If they feel it’s done nicely
are they going to leave him alone? Or if it’s not done nicely are they going to have him
removed? Or are they going to actually personally train him how to spend money?
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Devotee (5): It’s a philosophy…
Maharaja: Yes, it’s a philosophy, that’s why I am saying, it’s some New Age bogus nonsense
philosophy.
Devotee (5): They think that the movement was run by modern philosophy… I think that’s
actually what…
Maharaja: Yes, but the thing is if it was run by modern philosophy then why do they join us?
You know how many modern philosophical concept, ideas there are in India, the Hindus,
and New Age stuff, there is tons of stuff. Why come to us? We are one very particular group.
It’s like going to let’s say a New Age society that deals with astrology, and then you are
coming in and jumping up and down about Ayurveda or something like that. They don’t
care about Ayurveda. And demanding that they change it. No, then join the Ayurveda
society.
So we have a system, it’s a spiritual society and get spiritual. You have given your money,
you have given it, you have gotten the benefit. Now let it go. You feel it’s not being, why
don’t you feel it’s being? Because do they know everything about it? How do they decide
what is worthwhile or not? Some people think spending food on prasada, nice prasada for
the devotees is a waste of money. But probably 999% of our temple presidents think like
that. So then someone else might think that’s a waste of money. Because as soon as the
temple wants to cut expenses, the first thing they do is cut prasada rather than his dental or
something. It’s just common. That’s the way it works. As we mentioned before it’s one third
of Vaisnava interaction. So they target that. Why don’t they target something else?
Devotee (7): When devotees are dedicated to a temple full-time and they are serving under
a certain authority, but then the management changes and there are devotees don’t feel
comfortable or they are not treated properly then they leave. Is it the devotees or the
management that has a problem?
Maharaja: You’d have to see. It will be very individual. Unless you can give a specific
example then it’s very general. It may be either or both. The management should try to see
what the devotees are used to and this and that. But it may be that the devotees who are
used to it in a particular way that’s not necessarily it has to be done that way.
Let’s say someone comes in and it was run in a particular way, he was very friendly,
everyone was very comfortable. A new manager comes in and sees that certain standards
let’s say in deity worship or in cleanliness aren’t good, so he tries to raise those standards. So
everyone becomes uncomfortable. So now whose fault is it here?
Devotee (7): The devotees’.
Maharaja: Yes, then it will be the devotees’. But at the same time, the introduction of trying
to get them to the standard of cleanliness and the standard of the deity worship how to do
that in such a way that devotees are inspired that’s also the responsibility of the leadership.
In other words, you have that, it’s been like this for a long time. So it may take a while for it
491
to get there. But you start training and start talking about it, doing it yourself, introducing
things to like that, and slowly slowly you’ll get it there. So if management tries to change
things too quickly or the devotees are not willing to adjust to a better standard.
It’s just like, but if it’s a matter of something like this, they have been making banana
halava for the last ten years and now the new president comes in and wants strawberry
halava, and now the devotees can’t handle it, now they are going to leave and go to the next
temple. So I mean it’s just that it doesn’t really matter if it’s this or that.
Devotee (4): There is a let’s say notion that will be project-oriented or person-oriented. I
just wanted you to comment on this in management.
Maharaja: The problem is it’s the word or. That’s your problem. Projects are made out of
people. So if the project doesn’t include the people and at the same time you can’t get the
people interested in the project you failed.
Devotee (4): …
Maharaja: It has to be both. That’s the problem with the modern, it’s this or that. No, the
point is there is some, why can you say it’s this, because there is some good qualities in it.
Why do you say it’s that, because there is some good qualities in it. So the actual point is the
good qualities are both, then it’s complete. Otherwise you have the good qualities and the
bad, and this there is good and bad, you take the good from both and then that’s all you
have. But you have to be able to distinguish what’s good. That’s the problem with the
modern, they can’t tell. That’s why there is two. Vedic can tell, that’s why there is one.
Devotee (4): What takes prominence when there is a conflict…you don’t say anything?
Maharaja: Krsna. (end of lecture)
Maharaja: Everyone wakes up and asks questions when it gets political, when it’s about
money, politics, or morality, then suddenly it becomes, people become more inspired.
Devotee (5): We just had a seminar in Chile going and a similar thing happened with…
regarding to the part about money…and one devotee said in Serbia or something there is a
saying that when you are talking about money even the dead man comes out of the coffin
and starts getting excited. They have a saying like that.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s a good saying, it’s always like that. Otherwise there is philosophy… (end)
492

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January 11, 2010

January 12, 2010

Devotee (4): Was this book written in English, Maharaja?

January 14, 2010

January 18, 2010

Devotee (3): In Satya-yuga…?

February 22, 2010

February 23, 2010

February 25, 2010

February 26, 2010

March 11, 2010

March 19 – April 2, 2010

April 12, 2010

April 13, 2010

Maharaja: That was all from our history course.

April 15, 2010

April 22 – May 7, 2010

May 10, 2010

May 11, 2010

May 13, 2010

Devotee (7): We are going to break our Purusottama-vrata tomorrow.

May 14, 2010

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