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My biggest concern about your understanding about is the teaching of Anicca.
Has the Buddha said anywhere in a sutta that suffering arises due to impermanence (the Pali word is "adduwan"). Impermanence (adduwan) is
only one of MANY characteristics associated with the anicca nature.
But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca". Not getting what one wants is "anicca": "na" + "icca".
In the Dhammacakappavattana Sutta: "yampiccam ( "yam pi iccam) na labhati tampi dukkham" or "dukkha arises because one does not get what
one wants". Of course this refers to LONG TERM, in the rebirth process.
This was further explained by Ven. Sariputta in MN 141" :"Katamañcāvuso, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ? Jātidhammānaṃ, āvuso,
sattānaṃ evaṃ icchā uppajjati: ‘aho vata mayaṃ na jātidhammā assāma; na ca vata no jāti āgaccheyyā’ti. Na kho panetaṃ icchāya
pattabbaṃ. Idampi: ‘yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ’."
That is the whole sutta. “Icchāya bajjhatī loko" means " The world is bound by icca".
"Icchāya vippahānena" means getting rid of icca or tanha is the KEY to Nibbana.
How many suttas do you need to convince yourself? There are many.
But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca".
Dukkha Dukkha and Viparinama Dukka match your interpretation but not the Sankhara Dukkhay
There was nothing for me to “interpret”. Isn’t it in the exact words in the sutta? “yam pi iccam na labhati tampi dukkham”. There is no need
for any “interpretation”, as long as you know the meanings of those Pali words.
‐ By the way, icca, tanha, and asava are all related words. Nibbana is also explained as "asavakkhaya", removal of asava.
We also need to remember that this was the first sutta delivered by the Buddha, where he introduced how suffering (dukkha) arises.
It is amazing to me that some people cling to their wrong views no matter how much evidence is presented. Anyway, at least some others may
benefit from this discussion.
Actually, sankhara dukkha is the easiest to understand (if you understand what sankhara means). As I explained in a previous post here,
sankhara (especially mano and vaci sankhara) are one’s thoughts. One makes plans and then strives (kaya sankhara, which involve more
thoughts) to gain material things only because one has the perception that one can gain happiness that way. But all those plans eventually will be
fruitless. No matter how much money one makes, for example, one has to leave all that behind when one dies.
one dies
one dies
Isn't this the Anicca?
How naive!
In the Samyutta Nikāya (Anicca Vagga), many suttas including Ajjhattanicca Sutta, Bahiranicca Sutta, and Yadanicca sutta, the Buddha stated
that the three characteristics of “this world” are RELATED to each other:
“yadaniccam tan dukkham, yam dukkham tadanattā” (“yad aniccam tam dukkham, yam dukkham tad anattā“), i.e.,
“if something is anicca, dukkha (suffering) arises, therefore anatta (i.e., one becomes helpless)".
All kinds of suffering, jara, marana, soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, arise due to anicca nature.
@Lal
What I am saying is even if you get what you want it is still Dukkha.
What I am saying is even if you get what you want it is still Dukkha.
Yes. That is true, because at the end you have to leave it behind when you die. But most people are happy with working hard as long as they get
immediate benefits in terms of wealth, fame, etc. That suffering (working hard and also being stressed out) is masked because of the
anticipated benefits within this life.
The deeper point is that we have to look at this in terms of the rebirth process. We have been trapped in this rebirth process, because we had
never before thought about this anicca nature for the long‐term. No matter how much wealth, how many titles, etc one acquires, one will have
to leave all that behind at death. Then (if one is fortunate enough to be born human again), one will start over and do the same.
‐ But one will be totally helpless if born in the animal realm or worse.
‐ Even if one is born in a deva or brahma realm, that again is temporary in the samsaric time scale.
Of course, the biggest issue is that the Buddha said that one spends most of the rebirth process in the lowest four realms (apayas).
That is the anicca nature – all our struggles for happiness in this world are not only fruitless, but can only lead to more suffering: At the end, the
net result is much more suffering than any temporary happiness in human or higher realms.
When one realizes that one will strive to attain Nibbana. When one attains Nibbana (Arahanthood), rebirth process stops, and the “net
suffering” stops FOREVER.
This is the key message of the Buddha. Of course, many people don’t take it seriously.
Yes.
Then what is Dukkha?
I think I have explained dukkha (suffering) in detail many times, including in the previous post.
What do you mean by dukkha?
But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca". Not getting what one wants is "anicca": "na" + "icca".
That means if you get what you want, it is not Dukkha?
No. It is not.
I am still waiting for your answer. You are good at asking questions. I see that you have been at this forum for many years. Why not explain
what you understand to be dukkha after all these years? Please don't quote someone else.
Why not explain what you understand to be dukkha after all these years?
Why not explain what you understand to be dukkha after all these years?
Here again nama is subjected to universal consciouness (a universal energy) and rupa ( apo tejo vayo patavi) is subjected to terrestrial energy.
Do you have a Sutta support for this. Specially for universal consciousness?
Hi Lal,
mikenz66
Thank you for your interesting input. I really don't have time to read all of what you've written in detail, but I have a small comment about this:
Posts: 16428
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am Lal wrote: ↑ Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:26 pm
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand
A lengthy discussion on atta/anatta started on April 2, 2017, which goes on up to p. #9.
On April 16, 2017, I referred to a post at puredhamma.net which provides a lengthy response to criticisms by bhikkhu Dhammanando and bhikkhu
Pesala. That has been moved to here: "https://puredhamma.net/historical‐backg ... ‐scholars/". ...
Degradation of Theravada Buddha Dhamma occurred gradually over the past 1500 years, but two drastic changes took place during that time:
(i) Buddhaghosa’s introduction of Hindu meditation techniques 1500 years ago,
(ii) misinterpretation of anicca and anatta by the European scholars when they translated both Tipitaka and Visuddhimagga to English in the late
1800’s.
Leaving aside arguments about the usefulness, or not, of the Theravada Commentaries, your second point seems to me to put undue emphasis
on English scholars and monastics. It's hard to imagine these having much impact on Asian teachers and practitioners, many of whom were/are
not fluent in English.
Have you looked into how Thai and Burmese teachers address the translation of the terms you are interested in? Of course, English translations
of their work such as http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Our_Real_Home1.php will tend to use the English translations for your disputed terms,
but the context should make clear what is being communicated.
Mike
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