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i.r cC

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CCJ
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33

background

noise

whispered

camera

direction

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customer council

to

ask them

about

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how

important

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and ptc

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replied by saying standards

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promote...they

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if

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dads

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was

it

walls

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taller

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feet

two weeks

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astonishing

Toms

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um

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other

Tom
we want

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can

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in

whatever

order

Ioc
Page

tI Netscape Tape

Documentary

L9

33
Is

Brenden

coming
to

Shes

supposed had
like

be here

Au
Jamie

four things on the

top of

my

head

wanted

to

do

you want

to

talk

about

Plarney

4.CVS
think

have

decision

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listened

to

everybody

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not

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an adjustment..

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me

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my

to-do

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dont think you need
seen

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it

out but

may

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wrong phone

rings

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you havent

Brendan

have

you
lets talk

OK
hi

so lets skip around

urn

about

the

new

release

party since

oh

Jodi

Hi

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think

got this mail from Jarnie

that

said...where

do you want

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sit

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sit

here

got this mail frorn

Jamie

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theyre

having

the

party in Seattle

saw

the

same

thing

Yeah

saw

that

mail

Iwant

to

go
to

You want

go

Page2

Netscape Tane

Documentary

33 Well
thats

what

said

..I

said

feel

like

going

caught

myself looking

at

my
and
get

calendar

and

said

gee

its

Tuesday

Id blow

out of here

at

300

laughter

there

Well

Im

going

if

we dont have

party

but like

said the

gauntlet

has been

thrown

And
thats

want

to

have the party broadcasftm

live

video

over the

internet

think

moral imperative San Francisco

Why

Cause

this

place

sucks becaseu

like

Warren

said.uK you

know

one more bus

ride

to

Berkeley
people

and boat

trip

around

the

Bay and Im gonna
kind of stuff

kill

myself

And
If

singing

YMCA

and

all

that

were

going

to

have

party its gonna

be

cool

one

not

corporate..

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The

could

do

it

in

Palo Alto

Edge Rudys
You
can
fit

Rudys
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place but its

30 people

in

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could
just

got the Netscape

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in

there

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over

the

laughs
are

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so unzip

its

wonder

your

butts

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laughter

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and

long

have you been saving

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one up for
to rent

have no clue how

much
about

it

costs

night club

in

San

Franciscoum
the

Im

little

bit

worried

getting

people

motivated

to

go

all

way up

there

mean
Sure

Jamies obviously

on

it

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you want

to

talk

to

Dave

JZ

But you know heres
to Right

the

thing

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pretty

gonna

choose

which party

Im

gonna

go

and so far Pauls sounds
if

good
go
to

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better

we have
party that

party that

100

of these people

and you

dont

thats

than

you go to you go

to

laughter you know

Im

sorry

may

Page

c5

o

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
Seattle

go

with

you but

Im
to

serious about

that

And

these guys dont

live

in

San
Ai

Francisco dont

and they got have

go

to

work

on Wednesday

well

dont

know maybe

they

to

go

to

work

on Wednesday

JZ

No

they

dont
Ii

Maybe we
not going

shouldnt

have anybody
the details

go
in

in to

work

on Wednesday
talk

All right

were
is

to

get

all

done

here

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so..

you want

to

to

Dave Dave

like

the

Mad
Ill

magician of budget
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anyway
and
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then

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Lloyd
led

guys

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MSPR
issues

me
dive

to

therewee some
that Theres

LT

OK

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NSPR

has

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Is

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reeve
Yes
theres things
in the

CVS

tree

that

arent

for

public

consumption

LT

OK
fine

and so thats
thats the

different

model than anybody
to

else

is

working
so

from
to

And

thats

if

way you guys want

work we

Lsotw

talked

Tara

little

this

morning about and build guys have
uses

this and what

could

do is take your Tar Ball check
talk

it

into

the tree

off

that

OK

There was some

about

the

make system
does

beJajyou
Well

different

make

systems

than than the

client

but the client

their

make

system

LT

Excuse

me
the client builds they use

When

0-make

aR

for

NSPR

it

invokes

G-make

Page

/00733

1-

.-71
Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
Right does

LT

it

And

sojjiir

theres

from

the

client

point

of view thats

hard

ship

and from your

point

of view

thats

good thing

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Yeah..well

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three build

systems

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the

Macintosh

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system

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system..

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mailer

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mis-statement

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yours

LT

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think

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relatively

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problem

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we

left

you make system alone

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use

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with

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us we check we
in
build

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what you deliver
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if

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but

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we dont have

it

is

isnt

it

LT

Why

does

this

have

to

be

so

hard laughs

Page

.t
Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
Its

just

simple

point Lloyd

is

it

true

or

not

If

its

not

true

dont

have

to

change

the

name
is

LT

Whats

true

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weve

were

logically

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the repository

what weve

been doing
into

all

the work

thats been going

on

is

to

logically

separate

the

repository

the free

part

and the non

free

part

OK

since you

guys want
in

to

keep your
free

stuff

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non

free

mode
make

and you want
deliveries into

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non

mode

and you want
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space

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but.

were

going

take that

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free

Do

you

know why we want
want
to

to

do

that

LT

Why we

make

free

repository

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to

why we

wauit1

do what

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do

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differnet

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us anyway

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LT

believe

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is

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elaborate

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yeah Id be

glad

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hear

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Our major occupation
spare time

not delivering

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for

to

do

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kind

of like

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not going

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want
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to

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with that

to

support

331 Thats
that

thea1
all

LT

OK
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it

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trying

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me

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first

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spent half an

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LT

do You
documents

me

those documents

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hour reading

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afternoon

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think what

you

Which

ones

/c CO
Page

jTh

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
The one
the stuff

LT

on Hard core you want
its

the

binary

distribution

stuff

OK

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can

mean
it

believe

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to

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its

been

out there

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client

has

adopted

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LT

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you guys

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the client

has

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And what youve way
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Thats history right and so what wanted
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it

and be done right

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So Ive
got question
for

you Lloyd

LT

Uh

huh

Page7

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37 c3

Netscape Tape

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33 Urn youre
urn. .why
to

probably

going

think this

is

naive

and

this

doesnt come from the

am

wrong

in

thinking

that

it

would be

better

that

we had one make now
off the

system

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ran everywhere

and the only one be

can

think

of right

top of

my

head

is

G-make

so

why wouldnt
or

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to

take most of our

systems

and

migrate

them towards

G-make bad

at least

avoid

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away

from them

LT

There are. .one
lot

its

theres

re

theres

major re-work
Inside the client

Urn 0-make
jat theres
the

is

slower

on windows

than

it

is

on

UNIX
actually

OK

two

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file

systems two
builds the

there

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thems three

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0-make
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part

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system which
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make

file

dot win system

and

um

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Mozilla.make system

which

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model and

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just

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Mozilla.make systems
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on windows

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the

0-make
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somehow

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than

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if

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fast

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if

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really

wanted

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way

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it

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project

files

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it

inside

the

developer

studio

LT

No

its

not

the

fastest

way

The

fastest

way..
are like

kv
you guys
are just yelling

Hang on
eachother

so

why

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you guys here What
about

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and arguing

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systems

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dont see how

anything

of this

LT

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eng
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Im

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question

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wants

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know

why

why

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discussion

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times

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its

been an open issue People

bump

into

me

in

the

hallways

several

day and ask

me

questions

about

this

Page

/0n3

f--2

L3
Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
It

LT

reafly

does

come up
to

lot Jamie

believe

me

dont want and

it

to

come

up..

The

reason

we want
for

use

0-make
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is

security

in

NSPR

because

its

simpler

Its

simpler

us

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easier

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becaseu

theres

only one set

of conflict

files

Urn Lloyd uh

has

the good

argument

that

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is

slower and

think

Brian has

Brian Ostrum

has done

lot

of work

make i-make
versus

faster

but them

are

are

architectural

issues

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way 0-make works

the

way N-make

works

that

do make

it

somewhat

slower

LT

Also

if

you make modifications on

to

windows

programmers arent very comi

testing

UNIX
which

and

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programmers arent very
these things called

comfNe-tting
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manifest

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cross

thats really

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applies

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what you

just

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applies

to

all

platform

code
ownership
source

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thats

ownership

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have..

might

as

well

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code either

LT

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thats not

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the continuous

build

if

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just

modify source

um
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got
to test
it..

Come on LT
Its

lore

its

theres

lot

more

lore

in

make systems and
regular code

lot

more well more

kind

of programming

that

youd

have

in

Page9

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33
Heres what
think. think

.1

code

is

code make

or feed

but

agree

with

you

that

that

people

think

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calls

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hairier

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as

well

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certainly

program.. one person
to

LT

And

its

not so theres

whose domain

it

is

to

maintain

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make system
want
it

generally

and you dont want

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with

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just

to

work

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the security

So when

guys pop up and say we want

to

use

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LT

They did

Yeah

whats your response
it

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LT

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originally

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Security guy

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tells

me

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want

to

know.
is

LT

want

uni

actually

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think

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best thing

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have

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for

all

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LT

Right

if

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the top and you

build the client

my
to

opinion

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would be

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simply

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LT

Um
way
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Windows

client

files

LT

Well

there

already

are

there

are

more than that

mean

Per directory.

Page

10

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33
That way and Windows
the monolith

LT

doesnt have

doesnt organize
in..

it

wither

that

way

mean
Its

it

it

turns

out the monolith

inconsistent

with

what you

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You

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one make

system

for

all

for

everything

LT

No
Thats

want one make

system

for

platform

different

LT

Im

sorry

thats

what

meant

to

say One make

system per platform and thats
they want

different

than

what these guys want
they want

They want two make systems
they want

Windows

make

Mac make system and

So one make system

for

their

code regardless of platform

LT

right

You want one make

system

per platform

LT

Right So
the

for

the

client

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to

that

is

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depend on whether or not you

are

cross

platform

code

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youre

...guy

Not entirely becaseu
has

Lloyd already
three

remarked how cross platform code
directory
like

in

the client

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build files in each

Windows

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pure

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writing

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it

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make

file

and

day

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You dont have Youre egg

to

anything

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one
test
it

LT

What you do
on
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is

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you

on your platform
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other platform

work

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mean

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files

it

has

to

be

done anyway..
that

Well wasnt
that..

reason

manifest

got

added so

we wouldnt

have

to

to

Pagell

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33 Well
It

LT

it

turned

out that

in pract

it

was

great

idea

and

in practice

it

really

sucked

was

really

everybody

was

really

afraid

of touching

manifest

files

Becaseu

Who
Actually
in

one case they werent even used by more than one platforms make

files

right

know

of

lot

of

UNIX

systems

that

used them

UNIX make

files

but very

LT

OK
Im

was

the

sheriff

at

the time

we were

doing

it..

shocked

that

anyone

would be scared

to

touch

manifest

files

LT

Well The
fact

know
that

youre

shocked

youre was

shocked

doesnt change things

LI

mean
about

yeah
what

it

problem

beca

they were

becaseu

the

rules

were unclear

you could

do with them and...OK do
while

fine

Thats what Mike

tried to

little

ago

Well JZ And

this

is

problem

and

it

keeps

cropping

up
to

and
solve

its

not going

to

go away
like

still

dont understand

why youre
and Tara

trying

it

here This

sounds

something

that

you and you

should

be

talking

about and not

all

of

us

Right

One
that

of the problems

is

that

isnt

high enough

level

because

if

it

was

just

client

was

supporting

this

would be much

easier

of

question

have other

clients Other

customers

And

they appear

to

me

in

my

humble

opinion

to

have

more

consistent answer

JZ

Well
in

at

the end of the

day youre

writing cross platform

code
at

so

is

everyone answer

else

the

company
for

and

cant see how

you would end up problem

different

for

clients its

like the

same
other

And

and answer

thats good

for

one

is

going

to

be good

for

the

LT
JZ

Its

because

there

are

different

cultures

differently

Yeah

Culture

bullshit ifs

technical

Pagel2

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33 Yeah
think theres
lot

of

weirdwiC attitude

and

culture

on Make

systems

mean
wrote

as

II

recollect

the you guys had
distributions

proposal

to

Matt and urn John Hines
war with dont
Java people

up

for

binary

and

it

ran in to this religious

about

like

whose make
of that

file

was

longer

and

stuff

like

that

And

think

we

need any more

LT

Lets

just

make

sure

we

have

an

agreement

OK.

The

agreement is we
in

are

going

to

take the

Tar Ball you gave us were gonna check
whatever
stuff that

it

to

NSPR pub
to

OK

and

theyre

gonna adapt

they

do

to

glue their

glue their changes

in to

the

G-make

they

do some

stuff

right

now

in

the

NSPR

2.0 to

make

it

work

in

client

and theyre
turns you

gonna do
on..

the

same

thing

but just that

right

LT

Well
As
long
as
it

doesnt change

whats

on the server

Theres one way
build
that
is

one thing they do

right

now

to

make NSPR
script

build

and

the

client

really

bad
files

And
and

thats

they run this

PERL

over

the config

files

the

NSPR
to

config

think that

has to

go away
if

And

the

reason

they

do

that

is

to

tweak

the

object

DIR
tree

and

that

breaks things

you

try to

build

on multiple

platforms

using

the

same

LT

Well
to

..for

now were And Im
to

not developing

new

stuff

were

trying to

get what

we have

ship

OK
you
Ill

saying

well leave
in

that

in.

OK
LT
to

if

want

leave

that

fine

but thats

bad thing
in the

that

needs

to..

OK

acknowledge

that

as

bad thing

and then

future

when you want
repository
in

make

delivers

what youll

do

is

youll

check

in to

that

rep

that

Mozilla.org

right

OK
LT

stop stop what want
to

Thats

make

sure..

Page

13

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33 Yes you
is...whats

can

get away

with

almost

anything

now

Were

all

getting

yelled at is

the direction

of the

make systems

Uh

what do we need

to

do

to

make..

who owns

the

make

build..

LT

just

want

to

make
can

sure that

we dont
to

just

want

to

make

sure that

we dont
are

that

we do

this

and

go down want

Tara

and explain exactly the
time

steps

that

happening
this

and

dont

cause

every

do

this

say

were gonna do
this

this

need

to

be

this

explicit

Tom

becaseu

we keep

having

discussion

Fine but

think

youve ago

got another

calls

too

mean

think you

brought

this

up and

five

or six minutes

agree and

yes thats what
can of

were doing
so

and then

then

asked

my

question

opened up

worms again make and

guess

what

were gonna need
where

is

urn you where

know
to

the theory

of

Mozilla

regardless of

we

are

now

we want

be Your And

your

contention

is

its

one build

per platform

OK

fine

so describe

that

if

youve

got

warts youve got

warts

LT

OK
have

yes there
to

is

longer

term

there

is

an

issue

agree

fully

acknowledgei
than
it

address this its got to

get weve

got to

make
in that

the world better

is

today
sure that

will

try to

get the free

source

OK
stuff

and

vMn

Ijust want

to

make
gonna
to

theres

that

were gonna
that

put

up

in

repository

and youre

continue

to

check

in to

repository

and make

deliveries

into

that

repository

thats the last thing

and then

Im done

Nod

your heads

Say yes

we

agree

to

that

OK
the fact that

And

youre maintaining

two trees or however
not our problem

youre going

to

be

maintaining

thats

your

problem

my

problem

LT

OK

right

Did you

guys have other stuff

iozz.
Page
14

7z

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33 Urn we
about think

just

we
at

all

need

to

have

you and us need

to

have

rneting

make systems
that

sorne point

LT

OK
Right

can

happen

after

331

Ijust want to

make

sure

we

get

that

out

LT

OK
So
is

sure

that

everything

for

CVS
CVS

LT

Theres harbor

issues

with

Is

that

this

one or

is

that

different

LT

Uh

well

actually

there are

CYS

theres

two
else

Theres.

All right lets

do the

rest

of

CVS now.
about

.what

LT

OK
create

so the theory

of operation

whether

or

not Mozilla.org

allows

owners

to

branches

to

do

their

work

on

Owners
Is there

proposal

that

does

not allow

them

to

create

branches.

JZ

One

that

was

released

that

only has escalations

in

it..

Oh
LT
That

god
seems
really

naive

to

me

that

we
what

can

work

that

way
is

But.

t3w
JZ
Well
and

Mozilla.org

doesnt know

an

installation

OK

whatever

mean

but Mozilla.org

is

gonna

ship 6.0

and then go off

start

working

on 7.0 and someones gonna make
not

gonna find

really

serious crashing

bug

in

6.0 and theyre

6.01

release

And

theyre

gonna be

theyre

gonna be
that

theyre

gonna

want

to

do that

Theyre

gonna

try

very

hard

to

avoid

doing

But every

now and then youre gonna make what you
to

believe

to

be

stable

release

and youre gonna have theory you want
to

tweak

it

slightly

have

different

hear it

OK

/042-5 ft
Page
15

L.
Netscape Tape 33

Documentary

tim you have
care

stable

release

and what you you know

do...youre

buzzing

along

dont

how many
all

branches

there

are

time goes

that

way tiuand
and you
branch

these

guys

come back
it

in or

maybe somebodys You

off in this space

smile upon

this

and declare

be 5.0 or something
tar file

archive

it

Its

not

on

tree

you

just

take some

and

create

you know

Tarred

and and Untarred

directory

structure

somewhere

where

people

can

just

see this

is

what 5.0 is Thats

it

And

the

tree

continues

to

buzz along
look

Stuff happens

to

it

Uh
kind

maybe

theres

branches

that

do or dont

see but

if

at

the

tree

its

now

of on its

way

to

whatevers

next presumably dont

6.0 Big things can
hit this tree until

happen or small things can
of their in

happen

but big things

kind

OK

but

what

about

the 5.01

problem

Whatis5.01
Suppose you have change
to

make
here

change

to

5.0

Heres

the

right

it

happened
They have theyve the development branch
is

JZ

This

is

the

way

life

work

OK

right

now

mean

the

development
the

version

which

their

trunk which

is

totally

unstable

and they had

last stable

version

which came out and they had

year and

half

ago

right And then

the pentium

bug showed

up

to

put

fix

into

that

We
JZ

ship source

not binary

So does Lines

LT

Its

OK..
in
there

Put the fix

right

LT

No

you can have

it

you can

have

little

branch

hanging

off

5.0 and its

OK

the

question

is

whether or not

Im

not arguing

that

Im just

saying

whether or not

there

are

other branches

besides

the main line..

Page

16

C.
Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
Lets make
sure

Tom

agrees with

that

because

dont think he

does

You dont

put the

fix

them because

there

are

19 other fixes

besides

the

Pentium fix and 19

other changes

that

arent

fixes

But when

we

discover

this

bug

time

is

way

past that

point

LT

Way

past that

point

Your horizontal

axis

is

time

Yes itis

Were
JZ
Its

no way past
later

were down

here

year

and you need

one

line

change

to

what was

in

5.0

LT

And you

can

do that

LT

No
Not even close

6.0

is

six

months

out

LT

And you

can

put you can
not want
to

put that

in

5.0

Boy do lever

do that

LT

Yes laughs dont have the problem these guys have They make
their living off

doing

that

Right

They

have to theyve
right but
this

got

XYZ

corp

in

its

tree..

LT

Yeah

is this is..

We

dont

have escalation..

Well what do you do Yeah dont

with

bugs

that

get found

like

serious

bugs
the delta

understand

why

can check

that

fix

in...and

the

CYS

dif

dash. .dash...C

to
Page
17

co

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33
Becaseu the code might have been might not
fit

JZ

totally

restructured

by then You

know

the

patch

anymore we
put out this stable Tar Ball that

Here my

take is

5.0

that

people

are

grabbing Tar Ball

And weve
to

decided

its

really

bad and we want

to

but out

different

stable

5.0

OK
Im

gimme some
gonna

gut feel here

um
12

this

things goes

out and lets say endures

for

make

number

up
at

months And uh how many

when we

ship 6.0

When we

ship 6.0

go back and look on 5.0

5.0 what

of these beasts

do youi think

existed

At

that

point and

time

Mterayear
About 1/4 1/10
this

should

happened
this

like

one

in

ten times This

is

really

rare

You mean Yeah

every

10

releases

happens

once

Why

are

we

talking

about

this

OK
we
the

But thats not

quite

thats not

quite

the

model were

talking

about

You

said

release

6.0

My

model

is

we

release

5.0 were

working

on 6.0 but weve

got

5.0 stable

Tar Ball out them and. and something occurs
occurs

No
And

no no

no

something

Yeah
during

but

my

point

is

by

the

time

we

ship 6.0

how many

of those have

occured

this

process

How many
Yeah
times
in

have

occured

that

12 month

period

how many

times did

it

happen

Did

it

happen

50

times once

One

or

two
also be...theres

LT

It

could

another

reason

for

it

too

PagelS

IOZ7t37z.c/

Netscape Tape

Documentary

33

And
make

and

say

when

it

happens

you go back
in

to

that

tag

you made

at

5.0 and you

branch

now

and you put
the

your

tweak

and you

re-spin

your Tar Ball

How

does

guy out here

get

fix

discussion

LT

You

can

always

put that

in

two places twice

Youve

got to

make
this

this fix

OK

Im

sorry

is

uninterestingly

small

think everyones

in violent

agreement how

to

do this The

only reason

were

all

fussing

is

it

sounded

like

you didnt

agree
about things that occur

Well
with

Im not

talking

thought

you were

talking

actually

some frequency

What youre

talking

about

is...a

moderate cataclysm

disaster

Yeah

this

is

fine

mean you

can

handle

that

LT

OK...when So were

people

ship product

soft

the stable

point

right..

all

in

agreement on

this

Yes

everyone agrees

and we dont have

to

talk

about

that

Page

19