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« on: October 09, 2016, 10:07:15 am »

I've got an Atlas Copco GA7 compressor in my workshop. The old "Elektronikon" controller suffers a

problem, which renders the compressor useless From what i have read, the battery inside the "timekeeper" IC dies with age, and the compressor then shows "Error 200", and won't do anything at all.

shows "Error 200", and won't do anything at all. Since a new controller is really expensive,

Since a new controller is really expensive, i want to be prepared. (1000£ for a damaged unit!

The timekeeper, or what it's doing is a ST M48T02-200PC1 - Datasheet;

I have seen some pics about opening the thing, and add a buttoncell externally. Seems risky though.

Is there some sort of replacement, and would I need to get some data out of it, while it is still alive? If yes, what sort of reader would grab a dumb?

still alive? If yes, what sort of reader would grab a dumb? evb149 Super Contributor P

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sort of reader would grab a dumb? evb149 Super Contributor P o s t s :

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evb149 Super Contributor P o s t s : 1 6 6 3 Atlas Copco.jpg (148.53
evb149 Super Contributor P o s t s : 1 6 6 3 Atlas Copco.jpg (148.53

Atlas Copco.jpg (148.53 kB, 800x462 - viewed 781 times.)

« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2016, 10:39:10 am »

chip « Reply #1 on: October 09, 2016, 10:39:10 am » Logged Unless I missed something

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Unless I missed something in my VERY CURSORY search (i.e. double check because I did not) the exact

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What replacement for this timekeeper chip - Page 1

Country:

What replacement for this timekeeper chip - Page 1 Country: compatible (this is an assumption on

compatible (this is an assumption on my part, I suppose there could be some miserable way in which

the faster speed grade 70ns or 150ns parts that are listed in stock could be systemically incompatible

with the 200ns speed part you have due to some different ID code or timing or available:

) parts are still

If you look at other suppliers you could probably find 200ns parts still available. Of course even if you buy a new part from distributor stock I'd want to make sure the "manufacturing date" of the part is actually new enough that the built in cell is likely still going to be OK for several more years since the battery's clock starts ticking when the battery cell is manufactured. So buying a 10 year old manufacturing date 200ns module "as new old stock" may not be better than buying a more recently made unit.

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buying a more recently made unit. amyk Super Contributor P o s t s : 5

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unit. amyk Super Contributor P o s t s : 5 9 0 2 Re: What

« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2016, 10:58:15 am »

chip « Reply #2 on: October 09, 2016, 10:58:15 am » Logged First question: what does

Logged

First question: what does an air compressor need an RTC for!?

These RTCs with integrated battery are found in various other things like PCs, test equipment, and the like. I think Dallas/Maxim were the first to come up with this utterly stupid design.

You will need to read the contents of the IC and write it to the new one. Any multi-programmer should be able to do it.

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The thought just occurred to me, this might be planned obolescence if they kept the firmware for the

controller in there.

if they kept the firmware for the controller in there. Logged Re: What replacement for this

Loggedif they kept the firmware for the controller in there. Re: What replacement for this timekeeper

« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2016, 11:13:45 am »

@evb149 - Thought those were obsolete. I prefer a never design with an external battery
@evb149 - Thought those were obsolete. I prefer a never design with an external battery

@evb149 - Thought those were obsolete. I prefer a never design with an external battery though, but maybe the chances are small.

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@amyk - I don't know? But you can program the compressor to run on ie. weekdays from 6-15,

weekends from 7-12 or what ever you like. I actually don't know if the firmware is in there, but it would not surprise me if it was. The compressor is from 1998, but it is still going strong. It has only ~30K hours on it, so there should be at least 30K more, if the stupid designed EEPROM doesn't die for me. There is a forum post about it here, but most are in russian, maybe some one can translate?can program the compressor to run on ie. weekdays from 6-15, http://comprforum.ru/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=954 Logged

translate? http://comprforum.ru/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=954 Logged helius Super Contributor Posts: 2600 Country: Re:

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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2016, 11:20:37 am »

Of course even if you buy a new part from distributor stock I'd want to make sure the "manufacturing date" of the part is actually new enough that the built in cell is likely still going to be OK for several more years since the battery's clock starts ticking when the battery cell is manufactured.

No, this is not the case. The device is in the inactive state until it is installed and instructed to begin oscillating, and the power draw while on the shelf is insignificant (nanowatts). Of course there will be some self-discharge, but it is very low in these types of cells.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 11:22:56 am by helius »

« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 11:22:56 am by helius » Logged evb149 Super Contributor Posts:

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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2016, 11:31:12 am »

Now to address your other questions:

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(a) How to back up data on this existing chip. What I am assuming is that either:

1: your unit has some WARNING symptom of a low battery (which happens when the internal BOK monitoring flag is set by a low battery voltage level but not yet a data loss producing low level). In this case the unit must be backed up and replaced before the battery is truly low enough to produce data loss. or 2: Your unit does not even have the BOK level battery cell low level warning activated, your cell is within the nominal operating voltage range, and as you said you are just trying to be prepared to do preventive maintenance / replacement.

In the case of (1) you of course should find a solution ASAP. In the case of (2) you may have years before you have a battery low problem though maybe only weeks, who knows.

If you can keep the VCC applied to the chip module so that the battery is never needed for backup then it looks like (from cursory examination) the cell power may never be needed by the module and the battery's life will be maximixed though eventually the cell will still die even if not being used for supplying backup power. From a cursory glance at the datasheet it looked like the BOK battery voltage level might only be checked at the time the external VCC supply rises above the battery backup level and power is switched from battery to external. If external power was continually applied then maybe your module would indefinitely continue to preserve data and not even notice when the battery ultimately dies while VCC is always present.

That raises the possibility that you could device a means (UPS backup or whatever) to keep the VCC supplied for your unit "forever" even during power interruptions in which case you should be able to continue operation even if the cell dies. I don't know how much power your compressor needs to keep the whole unit powered but "idle" when not in use, so it may or may not be possible to simply keep the digital board supplied with power while the equipment overall is not running / switched on / whatever, or if the magnitude of power used could not be suitably sustained with certainty and economy.

With some PCB modification on the system you could possibly cut the VCC supply trace to the SRAM module itself then install a schottky diode and "power OR" type battery backup circuit of some kind so that the SRAM battery backed module would have an externally fed (maybe from a redundant set of regulators supplying voltage from a couple of 9V lithium batteries or something into a schottky/other ORing circuit) supply even though the rest of the compressor logic could be "off". There are some potential problems with performing such a PCB modification, and also by having the outputs of the SRAM module energized even when the chips whose inputs are tied to those outputs are not energized there is some risk of damage to some of the chips. You would have to investigate the specifications of the chips to see if that could possibly be a suitable choice.

Of course if the SRAM backup cell in your unit is still able to preserve the data in SRAM then you could carefully desolder the module from the PCB, backup the memory in the module via an external readout / programming interface, and then program that data into another replacement module which would be soldered into the system board or placed into a socket on it. Fortunately the I/O needed is only that needed for a simple SRAM operating at 5V, so the readout unit must supply 11 outputs to the module's address lines, 3 outputs to the module's control / enable lines, and the readout unit must be able to read and write eight I/O bits for the SRAM data bus. So the readout/programming unit must have 14 programmable logic output pins, and 8 GPIO I/O pins. The supply voltage presented to the SRAM module must be 5.0VDC. The I/O lines should have rise/fall times of < 5ns so you'd need fairly clean short wiring and connections to support that in theory though in practice you might be able to get away with some kind of protoboard plugboard solderless breadboard mess. Maybe.

So even something like a decent size Arduino, I guess, might have 5V logic levels and 22 MCU I/O pins, or if not then there will be inexpensive SBCs that have 22 GPIOs and 5V I/O capabilities. Or you could even use two Arduinos at once one for driving the address bus / control lines, and another for reading / writing the 8 bit GPIO data lines. Or something like that. Anyway if you can safely desolder the module from your system without data loss or catastrophic damage you can "fairly easily" read the data with a few hours of programming and prototyping work. The same setup with a somewhat different programming logic could of course program the new module's SRAM with the data that had previously been extracted from the old unit. Of course you should use the UART connection to the PC to save the data read from the old module for verification / analysis / permanent backup.

So if you are disinclined to remove the old module from the existing PCBA before you read out the data it has, you could in a similar way as the above connect the 22 I/O lines from the module to a readout board via short wires observing signal integrity concerns as much as possible with the wiring. You could wire the PCBA and device under test to either a logic sniffer / analyzer or some kind of Arduino or similar SBC with custom programming. The purpose would be to "sniff" the data read from and written to the existing module while the compressor is activated and run through all of its operations for several power / operational cycles and its settings / configurations are changed as possible until you have fairly good confidence that reads / writes to all locations that are ever required to be read / written in the SRAM by the compressor have been observed and that the data that should be programmed into a new module is fairly well known. It may be that some of the

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locations in the SRAM are never used, though in the worst case it could be that some critical locations of the SRAM are simply seldom used but must contain valid data for the case when they eventually may be read. In such a case you may not be successful in knowing all the required SRAM data simply by observing the I/O activity to the existing SRAM since unless you can see writes / reads from every single location you may not be confident as to the importance of data in locations that contain unknown data due to not having observed I/O to those locations.

But maybe with luck you could sniff enough data to make a substitute module. But if I personally was to try such sniffing / logging, I would ALSO read the entire module's RAM contents after carefully / successfully removing the module from the PCBA just to be sure that I knew the data contents as fully and well as possible.

Hooking up a sniffer "in system" to 22 I/O lines possibly operating at 200ns I/O cycle time speeds may not be a trivial undertaking, so maybe the risk could be similar or less to just desolder the existing module and read it out only outside of the system. Only you can say if you are confident to accomplish the module removal without data loss / damage or if you think it is less risky to sniff in system.

You might have to solder on 22 I/O connections if sniffing in the system, or you could find that micro hook / micro gripper or similar types of logic probe pin grabbing connectors could be feasible to use in your case.

You could perhaps use a sniffer made from something like a Saleae Logic type logic analyzer or Bus Pirate or some LogicPort product or other kind of sniffer that can handle recording waveforms from 22 I/O lines at 200ns cycle rates and capturing / decoding enough data to decode the whole contents of the SRAM. Not all of the units I have mentioned may have the SW or HW capability to do that easily or at all. Certainly some kinds of logic analyzers can but not all of them. You could even try to write some logic analyzer type of SW using a FPGA development board or PSOC 5 development board or something like that customized for this purpose but if that was easy for you you probably would not have asked about this, so you may have to see what "already made" logic analyzer tool is capable of the task or simply resolve to read / write the data out-of-system and find some solution for that.

Some old "universal programmers" even should have parallel SRAM / EEPROM / OTP type of reading / programming capabilities and 24 pin DIP ZIF socket support that could accept your module maybe. So using an off the shelf device programmer / reader might even be possible to read / write these DIP type SRAM modules with only a little HW adaptation if any. You could see what is available with the same pinout / package width size 24 pin DIP sockets and 15.24 to 16mm pin row width connectors and suitably programmable pin assignments.

There almost certainly are/were "out of system" boards to read / write these SRAM modules, maybe even ST's web page for these units offers solutions for HW tools capable of reading and writing the exact parts without any special effort.

If you do replace the module with a new one in the system you should consider installing a DIP machine pin socket or ZIF socket if possible to facilitate future maintenance. But maybe due to dirt / vibrations / space available it might not be suitable or possible.

Also if you are going to access the modules in a self-made breadboard / interface for readout / programming, using a socket like a ZIF or machined pin one for those operations is recommended. Maybe even a wire wrap socket could be used and might facilitate your work.

Another possibility could be to modify the control MCU for the compressor so that it does not rely upon this SRAM but of course that is also a challenging project. But maybe it could be found to be simple if it was determined that the existing programming was easy to decode / modify somehow. Maybe it is in BASIC or something simple.

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is in BASIC or something simple. NiHaoMike Super Contributor   Logged Re: What replacement for this
 
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2016, 02:23:26 pm »

 

Does it use a direct to mains motor? If so, it should be trivial to reverse engineer how to read the pressure sensor and make a replacement controller.

 
 
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2016, 02:44:36 pm »

Theses devices are not used for firmware. Typically they are just used to store configuration or calibration parameters and the RTC functionality. I seem to recall that the guy from The Signal Path fixed a piece of test gear that had one of these and would display an error code related to it not being able to read or write to the device.

related to it not being able to read or write to the device. Logged calexanian Super

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or write to the device. Logged calexanian Super Contributor Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip

« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2016, 04:36:26 pm »

Those appear to be like the famous, or infamous Dallas clock modules. we used them in some of our designs many years ago. RTC modules with ram like those were volatile ram. Once the battery dies it loses memory. I would however find it hard to believe critical information needed for startup would be stored on them, because after all they are traditionally static ram and that is a big no no from anchip « Reply #8 on: October 09, 2016, 04:36:26 pm » Posts: 1854 Country: engineering point

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engineering point of view. even if it has a battery backup. If there a way to hotwire this thing to just run when you need it with a pressure switch or something?ram and that is a big no no from an Posts: 1854 Country: timb Super Contributor

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Loggedwith a pressure switch or something? timb Super Contributor Charles Alexanian Alex-Tronix Control Systems Re: What

Charles Alexanian Alex-Tronix Control Systems

Logged Charles Alexanian Alex-Tronix Control Systems Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip « Reply #9

« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2016, 05:09:16 pm »

chip « Reply #9 on: October 09, 2016, 05:09:16 pm » Posts: 2528 Country: I believe

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on: October 09, 2016, 05:09:16 pm » Posts: 2528 Country: I believe later ST versions of

I believe later ST versions of these did away with the integrated battery approach; instead the IC itself had four pin sockets on the top (one on each corner), essentially the RTC IC had a socket on the top. The battery was the shape of the IC and would snap on, allowing you to replace it when it ran down. They used a small capacitor to retain the information on the RTC/SRAM in the few seconds it took to replace the battery.

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Polysyllabic Prose

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Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose cs.dk Supporter Posts: 567 Country: They called this system

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Polysyllabic Prose cs.dk Supporter Posts: 567 Country: They called this system "SnapHat" or something like

They called this system "SnapHat" or something like that. Ultimately they didn't take up any more space than the Dallas equivalents, but had the benefit of being user replaceable. You can still buy the batteries on Digital-Key!

replaceable. You can still buy the batteries on Digital-Key! Logged Any sufficiently advanced technology is

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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF. Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip

« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2016, 08:25:16 pm »

Thanks for the replys, i have something to think on now.

The Elektronikon controls the following, if i am not mistaken; The Y-D motorstarter relays, and the time in Y before switching over, how long time to run before opening the loading/unloading valve, how long time to run unloaded before a shutdown, load and unload "windows", etc. All values are programmable. It monitors air element output temperature, dew point at the cooler, air pressure, oil temp, emergency stop, motorload/overload, automatic restart after power failure (if selected), and probably something i've forgotten. It also count the running hours loaded and unloaded. And of course a service counter where you can reset for oil change, seperator change, filter change, etc

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etc Logged Pjotr Frequent Contributor Posts: 461 Country: Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip «
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2016, 08:55:55 pm »

Looking at the picture it is just an overmoulded standard DIL package on a IC socket. Probably a standard RTC+Battery brick. Since the battery is dead anyway I would try to replace the battery at first.

Take care to work clean. Impedances are very high to keep leakage current low. It is one of the reasons to embed the battery: To keep leakage current as low as possible. Especially in an environment where cleanliness cannot be guaranteed.

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What replacement for this timekeeper chip - Page 1 amyk Super Contributor P o s t

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for this timekeeper chip - Page 1 amyk Super Contributor P o s t s :

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B.t.w. the data sheet states "The M48T02/12 TIMEKEEPER® RAM is a 2 Kb x 8 non-volatile static RAM and real-time clock which is pin and functional compatible with the DS1642. " The Dallas/Maxim DS1642 is widely available.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 09:33:42 pm by Pjotr »

« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 09:33:42 pm by Pjotr » Logged Re: What replacement for

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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2016, 02:37:46 am »

Theses devices are not used for firmware. Typically they are just used to store configuration or calibration parameters and the RTC functionality. I seem to recall that the guy from The Signal Path fixed a piece of test gear that had one of these and would display an error code related to it not being able to read or write to the device.

2 kilobytes is a LOT of space for calibration data, especially calibration data for an air compressor.

It's not unknown for companies to do this, storing firmware in a volatile memory:

memory: http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html Knuckx Contributor Posts: 8 Re: What replacement for this

Contributor

Posts: 8

« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 04:13:26 am »

Loggedchip « Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 04:13:26 am » I have replaced the battery

I have replaced the battery in some of these chips like the photo in your post shows (quite a lot of old, non-standard computers used them, as well as at least one games console).

The battery is in an overmold on top of the DIL package. The overmold is softer than the IC package itself, so it's unlikely you will damage the device unless you are careless; if you cut into the correct side of the device, you don't even have to remove the original battery, just disconnect it (if you don't want to - I would remove it though). A sharp stanley knife or scalpel, along with patience works well - heating the knife seems to help things along too.

I normally use a CR2032 holder instead of a tagged cell, and epoxy it onto the top of the IC, or another convienient surface, so next time the battery dies, I don't have to break out a soldering iron

battery dies, I don't have to break out a soldering iron Logged Ian.M Super Contributor P

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dies, I don't have to break out a soldering iron Logged Ian.M Super Contributor P o

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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2016, 05:11:59 am »

I'd go for the minimally invasive approach of just isolating the old battery and connecting a supplementary one. All the resources I have seen on the web for that chip say the crystal is up at the pin 1 end and the battery contacts are in the center of the other end., so that's where you should start digging, with the chip clamped in a vice with its pins protected by a piece of wood with two saw- cuts in anf the top protected with thin card. With luck there will be enough residual voltage to determine the battery polarity without having to fully expose it.

 
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«

Reply #15 on: October 24, 2016, 11:14:41 am »

 

Your best bet is probably to keep the mains power to the compressor on.

 

The RTC only draws current from it's battery if it has no other power.

shelf life for Lithium batteries is probably longer than your compressor wil last.

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is probably longer than your compressor wil last. Logged picdev Re: What replacement for this timekeeper
longer than your compressor wil last. Logged picdev Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip «

« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 02:04:08 am »

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I am trying to fix a elektronikon controller, does anyone know where to connect a ref voltage to simulate the sensor ?02:04:08 am » Contributor Posts: 14 C o u n t r y :

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What replacement for this timekeeper chip - Page 1 « Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 02:09:18

« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 02:09:18 am by picdev »

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June 25, 2017, 02:09:18 am by picdev » cs.dk Supporter Re: What replacement for this timekeeper

« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 05:23:54 pm »

chip « Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 05:23:54 pm » L o g g e

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There is a schematic in the compressor instruction book - I think the pressure sensor
There is a schematic in the compressor instruction book - I think the pressure sensor

There is a schematic in the compressor instruction book - I think the pressure sensor is a 4-20 mA type, it has 3 wires.

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is a 4-20 mA type, it has 3 wires. Posts: 567 Country: picdev Contributor Posts: 14

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Posts: 567 Country: picdev Contributor Posts: 14 Country: EDIT: Can't attach more then 1 MB here

EDIT: Can't attach more then 1 MB here - The manual is here; Atlas Copco GA7 Compressor Manual

« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 06:23:33 pm »

Loggedchip « Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 06:23:33 pm » I was looking for this

chip « Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 06:23:33 pm » Logged I was looking for

I was looking for this manual for one day! thank you very much. I made some test with inputs and I found the analog input, it takes an analog voltage between 1- 5volts, you set the pressure limits and one relay open and close. The start and stop button doesnt work I will read the manual

 
thanks

thanks

 

«

Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 06:37:32 pm by picdev »

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Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip
 
 

«

Reply #19 on: June 27, 2017, 08:15:24 pm »

 
 

No problem - I have the spare part catalogue as well; Atlas Copco GA7 Spare Parts Catalogue

No problem - I have the spare part catalogue as well; Atlas Copco GA7 Spare Parts

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Reply #20 on: June 28, 2017, 08:47:26 am »

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C o u n t r y : the electric diagram isnt clear

the electric diagram isnt clear

C o u n t r y : the electric diagram isnt clear
 
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cs.dk Re: What replacement for this timekeeper chip « Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 05:04:49

« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 05:04:49 pm »

 

Supporter

the electric diagramSupporter Quote from: picdev on June 28, 2017, 08:47:26 am isnt clear Posts: 567 Country: I've

isnt clear

June 28, 2017, 08:47:26 am the electric diagram isnt clear Posts: 567 Country: I've scanned the

Posts: 567

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am the electric diagram isnt clear Posts: 567 Country: I've scanned the diagram i found inside

I've scanned the diagram i found inside the compressor, it should be better then the first in the manual.

it should be better then the first in the manual. GA7_Schematic.pdf (349.9 kB - downloaded 73

GA7_Schematic.pdf (349.9 kB - downloaded 73 times.)

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