Nicole Jan F.

Uayan
2018- 06992
Cratylus Episodes

Topics:
 "If all the world were to call you Hermogenes, that would not be your name." - Name
of Hermogenes
 Socrates talked solely to Hermogenes (as inferred from the dialogue) and asked
him about the truthness in propositions
o Large parts and small parts of a proposition
o Name is the smallest part of a proposition
o There is a true and false proposition thus there is true and false name
 Thus, what Hermogenes said that the name will always be correct as to what you
claim it to be is wrong/false
 Hellenes - differ from Barbarians in their use of names and the several Hellenic
tribes different from one another
o Socrates: but would things differ as the names differ?
 Socrates brings up Protagoras [For he (Protagoras) says that man is the measure of
all things, and that things are to me as they appear to me, and that they are to you
as they appear to you.]
o Hermogenes says that there have been times that he has been driven by his
perplexity to agree but he says that he does not agree with him fully
 Existence of a Bad Man/Bad Men
o Hermogenes says no but there are times that he thinks THERE ARE VERY
BAD MEN ("and a good many of them")
 Existence of Very Good Men
 The good being wise and the evil being foolish
 Euthydemus was introduced
 Actions are done according to their proper nature
o The natural way is the right way in terms of actions
 Socrates said that which has to be woven, pierced, or named has to be woven,
pierced, or named with something.
o Awl to pierce; Shuttle to weave; Name to name.
o Led to the subtopic of name being an instrument (of teaching and
distinguishing natures) as well
 Using something that was done or created by someone who is skilled--not just
anybody's work or creation
o Skilled carpenter - shuttle (used by weaver)
o Skilled smith - awl (used by piercer)
o Skilled Legislator - name (given by the law, used by teacher)
o Led to the subtopic that now everyone can give a name but only the maker of
names (legislator) and is said to be rare
 Legislator looks at the nature to come up with the names
o Made an analogy as to what the carpenter looks at what is naturally fitted to be
a shuttle
 True or Ideal Name
 o Question of weaving according to the form made using a broken shuttle or
according to the unbroken shuttle
o Producer will use shuttle adapted to each kind of work (ex: garments-thick or
thin, flaxen, woollen, other material)
o Skilled smith, carpenter, and legislator will make forms of awls (iron), shuttle
(wood), and names (sounds and syllables), respectively, adapted by nature by
their function or nature to their uses
o Not everyone will be making the same instrument but with the same purpose
 The form must be the same, but the material may vary, and still the instrument may
be equally good.
o True and proper form of name (instrument), Hellene or barbarian legislator
with different/whatever syllables (varied material)
 Discussion of who will determine/direct the correctness (true and proper) of form.
o Lyre - player of lyre; Shipwright - pilot [rudder-pilot directs the carpenter];
Legislator - dialectician
 Hermogenes suggests the assistance of those who know about the nature of the
truthness/correctness of names
o If one despises Protagoras, one should learn from Homer and the poets
instead
o Homer talks about calling Gods by their right and natural names
o River in Troy [Xanthus (for Gods); Scamander (humans)] who had a single
combat with Hephaestus [ought to be called Xanthus acc to Homer]
o Bird - Chalcis (God); Cymindis (humans)
o Hill - Myrina (immortals); Batieia (humans)
 Specific example from Homer which is the Names of Scamandrius and Astyanax,
which he affirms to have been the names of Hector's son.
o Wise VS unwise - who is likely to give correct names; Men VS Women - who is
wiser
o Acc to Homer, Trojan men called Hector's son as Astyanax (King of the City).
Could it be that the women in turn named him Scamandrius thus Homer
imagined Trojans to be wiser than their wives which in turn means that he
believes that Astyanax is the correct name with to the statement: For he alone
defended their city and long walls.
o Judged as a good reason to call the son of the savior king of the city which his
father was saving
 Homer gave Hector his name and states that it is similar to the name of his son
(Astyanax)
o both are Hellenic; and a king (anax) and a holder (ektor) have nearly the
same meaning, and are both descriptive of a king; for a man is clearly the
holder of that of which he is king; he rules, and owns, and holds it
o After this, Socrates admits that he does not know what he meant when
he said that he had an indication about Homer's opinion on the
correctness of names (p. 44)
o Socrates believes there is a reason to calling a lion's whelp (its young), a lion
and the foal of a horse a horse - same principle as to why calling the son of
the king a king since someday he will be a king
 o Ex. of exceptions: Horse - calf; inhuman birth - natural birth; trees
 Socrates' meaning by the names of letters and that as long as one introduces the
meaning, there can be no mistake (name of the letter is correct)
o Names of letters are not the same as the letters themselves with the
exception of the four epsilon, upsilon, omicron, omega; the names of the rest,
whether vowels or consonants, are made up of other letters which we add to
them
 The same names ought to be assigned to those who follow in the course of nature
o King will often be the son of a king, and good son or the noble son of a good
or noble sire
o Ignorant person may not recognize it if the syllables are disguised;
professional/skilled person will recognize [ex: Physician will recognize the
drugs under a disguise of different color and smell]
 Socrates and Cratylus talks about Hermogenes’ name again (on whether it is his
name at all/its correctness)
 Cratylus argues that to speak falsely is the same as saying nothing then states
that how can a man say something and yet say nothing.
 Socrates argues that the right and wrong assignment of names is possible since
the right and wrong assignment of pictures to objects and verbs is possible
 There can well and ill made names
 Acknowledgment to allow the occasional substitution of a wrong letter
o and if of a letter also of a noun in a sentence, and if of a noun in a sentence
also of a sentence which is not appropriate to the matter, and acknowledge
that the thing may be named, and described, so long as the general character
of the thing which you are describing is retained general character is
preserved, even if some of the proper letters are
 If the general character is preserved, even if some of the proper letters are
wanting, still the thing is signified
 Not everything is abiding since knowledge is constantly changing thus not
everything is known