Daron Wint Cross Examination

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2 CRIMINAL DIVISION
3 ---------------------------x
:
4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA : Excerpt
:
5 versus : Criminal Action Number
:
6 DARON WINT, : 2015 CF1 7047
:
7 Defendant. :
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8 Washington, D.C.
Thursday, October 11, 2018
9
The above-entitled action came on for a jury
10 trial, before the Honorable JULIET MCKENNA, Associate
Judge, in Courtroom Number 203.
11
THIS TRANSCRIPT REPRESENTS THE PRODUCT
12 OF AN OFFICIAL REPORTER, ENGAGED BY THE
COURT, WHO HAS PERSONALLY CERTIFIED THAT
13 IT REPRESENTS TESTIMONY AND PROCEEDINGS
OF THE CASE AS RECORDED.
14
APPEARANCES:
15
On behalf of the Government:
16
LAURA BACH, Esquire
17 CHRISTOPHER BRUCKMANN, Esquire
Assistant United States Attorney
18
On behalf of the Defendant:
19
JUDITH PIPE, Esquire
20 JEFFREY STEIN, Esquire
Washington, D.C.
21
22
23
24
25 Stephanie M. Austin, RPR, CRR (202) 879-1289

Official Court Reporter 1
1 TABLE OF CONTENTS
2 WITNESSES
3 On behalf of the Defendant:
4 DARON WINT
5 Cross-examination by Ms. Bach .............3

Redirect examination by Ms. Pipe ..........260
6
7 MISCELLANY
8 Proceedings October 11, 2018 ..............3

Certificate of Court Reporter .............284
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 EXCERPT
3 (Time noted: 9:50 a.m.)
4 THE COURT: Okay. Good morning, ladies and
5 gentlemen. You may be seated.
6 Ladies and gentlemen, before we continue with
7 Mr. Wint's testimony, I just want to advise you that, as
8 you probably noticed, we have had to excuse juror in
9 Seat 16 for reasons completely unrelated to this trial.
10 It is not going to affect the trial proceeding forward in
11 any way. And we will now continue with Mr. Wint's
12 cross-examination. Okay.
13 Mr. Wint, if you could just again please stand
14 and raise your right hand to be placed under oath.
15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you, sir.
16 Thereupon,
17 DARON WINT,
18 having been called as a witness on behalf of the defendant
19 and having been first duly sworn by the Deputy Clerk, was
20 examined and testified as follows:
21 (Time noted: 9:50 p.m.)
22 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Please be seated.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. BACH:
3
1 Q Thank you.
2 Good morning, Mr. Wint.
3 A Good morning.
4 Q I'm just going to ask you if you could to keep
5 your voice up a little bit, because yesterday some of us
6 were having a hard time hearing you, okay?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Just to get a couple things out of the way, what
9 is your date of birth?
10 A 11/27/80.
11 Q '80?
12 A 1980.
13 Q So back in May of 2015, you were 34 years old;
14 is that right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And in terms of the brothers, you're the oldest,
17 right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And then there's Steffon, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And then Darrell?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And you indicated that you went to school in
24 Guyana; is that right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
4
1 Q And because I'm not familiar with the school
2 system there, did you go through what is sort of our
3 version of high school here in the States?
4 A Similar.
5 Q Similar.
6 And then you went on to a trade school to learn
7 how to become a welder?
8 A No.
9 Q Okay. Was that just kind of on-the-job
10 training?
11 A No, ma'am. I -- my step-father was a welder.
12 Q So he taught you how to do it?
13 A He taught me how to weld.
14 Q Okay. And in terms of the welding, you made all
15 kinds of things out of metal; is that right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q All right. And when you worked at Metal-Fab,
18 you worked there for how long?
19 A About eight to nine years.
20 Q Okay. You made all kinds of things out of
21 metal; is that right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And in addition to construction materials, you
24 guys would actually stay late sometimes making personal
25 items out of metal; is that right?

5
1 A Yeah, sometimes.
2 Q And that's the location of the business that was
3 at 51st and Frolich Lane; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q In addition to knowing how to do those kinds of
6 things, you're also really good with numbers; is that
7 right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. You actually really enjoy kind of
10 tinkering around with numbers on computers and stuff like
11 that, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q You like kind of plugging them in and seeing
14 where they fit in terms of figuring out patterns and
15 things?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. And I guess, you also have some street
18 smarts; is that fair?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q So when your brother said to you about unloading
21 a house, I mean, you knew what he was talking about?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q You didn't have to go look it up on urban
24 dictionary?
25 A No, ma'am.
6
1 Q All right. So you're a pretty bright guy?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Now, you worked at AIW in 2003 is when you
4 started; is that right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q You worked there from May 2003 to April 2005?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And you testified that during that time frame,
9 the person you came in contact with was Phil, the owner;
10 is that right?
11 A I came in contact with both.
12 Q Okay. But the person that you saw more
13 frequently was Phil?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you said that you saw Phil on a regular
16 basis; is that right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Okay. Whereas you only saw Savvas, I think you
19 said once or twice?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And when you say you saw Phil on a regular
22 basis, we're talking a couple times a week?
23 A Maybe. Well, once a week.
24 Q Once a week.
25 And that's throughout the entire time that you

7
1 were at AIW?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q So not the entire time you were at AIW?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q So when you were there in 2003, did you see him
6 the entire time you were at AIW, Phil?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q So you didn't see him all that time?
9 A Not all that time, but sometimes he comes to the
10 shop.
11 Q Okay. So who's the owner that you're seeing all
12 the time at AIW in 2003?
13 A Mr. Phil.
14 Q Mr. Phil.
15 And so that's all through 2003?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. And in 2004, the owner that you had the
18 contact with on a regular basis, is that Phil, or is that
19 Savvas?
20 A That's Mr. Phil.
21 Q Okay. And in 2005 before you leave AIW, is that
22 Phil, or is that Savvas?
23 A That's around the time when I think I saw Mr. --
24 Q I'm sorry?
25 A That's the time -- around the time I think I saw

8
1 the son.
2 Q The son?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Is around 2005?
5 A In between 2005 and 2004. One of them years.
6 Q So you saw the son once or twice; is that right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q That's what you said on direct?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q Okay. So what I'm trying to figure out is, you
11 said that Phil was the owner; is that right?
12 A Yes, ma'am. That's what everybody said to me,
13 yes, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. And who's the person that you're seeing
15 on the regular basis?
16 A Phil.
17 Q Phil. And so what I'm trying to figure out is,
18 in 2005, from January to April, are you seeing Phil on the
19 regular basis or Savvas?
20 A I wouldn't say a regular basis, because that
21 means, like, every day.
22 Q When I say "regular basis," I mean once a week.
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And that's Phil?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
9
1 Q Not Savvas; is that right?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q And just to be clear, your brother, Steffon,
4 never worked at AIW?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q And your brother, Darrell, never worked at AIW?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q And I guess along the same lines, Steffon was
9 never fired from AIW, right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q Darrell was never fired from AIW, right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You do know, don't you, that Phil Savopoulos
14 went to the Virgin Islands in October of 2003; don't you?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q You didn't know that he was gone in October of
17 2003 until after you were terminated in 2005?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q You didn't know that Savvas Savopoulos was
20 running the company then?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q You didn't know that Savvas Savopoulos was the
23 person who was dealing with the day-to-day operations
24 while you were working there for 24 months?
25 A No, ma'am.
10
1 Q You didn't know that he was the person who would
2 have overseen your termination?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Because that wouldn't look very good; would it?
5 A I didn't know, ma'am.
6 Q Because the person you were seeing every week
7 was Phil, not Savvas Savopoulos?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q You're sure about that?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And just to be clear, you testified on direct
12 that the very next day you got a new job after you were
13 terminated from AIW; is that right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you were terminated from AIW because you
16 wouldn't show up for work, right?
17 MS. PIPE: Objection. Can we approach?
18 THE COURT: Sure. Parties may approach.
19 MS. BACH: I'm not --
20 MS. PIPE: Can we approach?
21 THE COURT: Sure.
22 (Bench conference.)
23 MS. PIPE: This is the exact line of questioning
24 I wasn't allowed to ask. So I don't know what his answer
25 is going to be, but I don't think Ms. Bach can open her
11
1 own door.
2 MS. BACH: My point is that, quite frankly --
3 and it goes directly in response with what you did on
4 direct. He got a new job the next day. Well, he sure as
5 heck didn't tell him at the new job that he was fired,
6 because he didn't ever go to work the next day. That's
7 what I'm trying to elicit. He lied to the new employer.
8 I think it's in direct response to direct.
9 MS. PIPE: I think you can ask: Did you tell
10 Metal-Fab why you were fired, but I don't think -- because
11 I don't know what his answer is going to be. And I
12 suspect that --
13 MS. BACH: I'll lead him. I just led him. I
14 said that's what you were fired for.
15 THE COURT: And you're not going into any other
16 reason for his termination?
17 MS. BACH: No.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MS. PIPE: Okay.
20 (Open court.)
21 BY MS. BACH:
22 Q You were terminated from AIW because you weren't
23 going to work; is that right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And when you got that job the next day, you
12
1 didn't tell them that you had just been fired for not
2 showing up at work, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am, I did tell them.
4 Q Oh, you told them that and they hired you
5 anyway?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q All right. And to be clear, when you called AIW
8 in 2008 asking for a new job, they wouldn't hire you; is
9 that right?
10 A They said they wasn't hiring.
11 Q Right. They weren't hiring you; is that right?
12 A No. They just said they wasn't hiring.
13 Q And they didn't hire you?
14 A No. They just said they wasn't hiring.
15 Q My question is: Did they hire you?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q And the same thing in 2009?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q All right. And who was running the company in
20 2008?
21 A I don't know, ma'am.
22 Q You knew it was the Savopoulos family, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q Now, just to be clear, I know you got a job you
25 said the next day in 2005, but at least the end of 2014,
13
1 beginning of 2015, you did not have steady work; is that
2 right?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q No, that's not right; or no, you didn't have
5 steady work?
6 A No, ma'am, I didn't have steady work.
7 Q Okay. Your brother, Steffon, had steady work;
8 is that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am. He was working for PCM.
10 Q He was working all the time for PCM; is that
11 right?
12 A He was working for PCM.
13 Q And he was working a lot of overtime for PCM; is
14 that right?
15 A I don't know the hours he was working. I just
16 know he was working.
17 Q Well, you lived with him. He was gone a lot
18 working at PCM; is that right?
19 A Yes, ma'am. But that's not the only place he
20 stays.
21 Q And you know that up until about, say, March of
22 2015, your brother, Darrell, was working at a place called
23 Test Services; don't you?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q You didn't know he had been employed there for

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1 over two years?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q You didn't know that he did work testing buses?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q And you didn't know that he -- or did you know
6 that he started work at PCM on May 18th?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q You didn't know that?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q And because you were the one who didn't have
11 steady work in 2015, you had to rely on your family for
12 support; is that right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And so by your family, we're talking about your
15 brother, Steffon, right?
16 A I was staying with him.
17 Q Okay. And he was giving you money, right?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q He didn't give you money?
20 A No, ma'am.
21 Q Never once?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q Never gave you a dime?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q Never gave you a dollar?

15
1 A Not to my knowledge. Not to my recall, no,
2 ma'am.
3 Q Who gave you the phone, that black phone, that
4 LG phone?
5 A It was the phone that he wasn't using anymore.
6 Steffon.
7 Q Oh, so Steffon gave you the phone?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. Who paid the bill?
10 A It didn't have a bill.
11 Q Initially who paid the bill?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q Well, did you pay it?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q Did the fairies pay it?
16 A I don't know.
17 MS. PIPE: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't pay the bill.
19 THE COURT: If you could rephrase the question.
20 BY MS. BACH:
21 Q Okay. Well, whose name was it under?
22 A I don't know. He gave me that phone so he could
23 keep in contact with me. Like, if he was out and I was
24 going somewhere then ...
25 Q So Steffon gave you the phone initially, and you

16
1 know that initially it had a phone number with it?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And someone paid the bill, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q But it wasn't you?
6 A It wasn't me.
7 Q And you don't know who paid the bill?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Did your mom give you money?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q Okay. Did your sisters give you money?
12 A Yes, ma'am. The sisters in Guyana.
13 Q Okay. What about your sisters here?
14 A Maybe occasionally, yes.
15 Q Samantha give you money?
16 A No.
17 Q Never?
18 A Before, yes, she has.
19 Q Your dad ever give you money?
20 A I guess.
21 Q I guess the bottom line is, you were not in a
22 good spot by the spring of 2015?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q And you were looking for work; is that right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
17
1 Q I mean, you were trying to find a job, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q I mean, you weren't just sitting around, you
4 were trying to find work?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And it's hard for you to find work because you
7 don't have an identification card; is that right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. So no driver's license, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q No passport, right?
12 A No, ma'am. That caught up --
13 Q I'm sorry, what?
14 A No, ma'am, no passport.
15 Q No passport. No official ID or anything that
16 you can use?
17 A No, ma'am.
18 Q All right. So you're kind of stuck looking for
19 work as a day laborer, right?
20 A Unless somebody hired me with an expired ID.
21 Q Okay. But your options are limited, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q All right. And so as a result, you said you're
24 going to this place, you described at 7-Eleven off of
25 Kenilworth Avenue in Maryland; is that right?

18
1 A Yes, ma'am. A place to go to hire welders, to
2 look for welders.
3 Q Sure. And did you say -- how many days a week
4 were you going there?
5 A Between Monday to Wednesday.
6 Q So only Monday through Wednesday, you didn't go
7 there on Thursday and Friday?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. So every Monday through Wednesday you
10 went there, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And with -- you were looking for welding work?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. And welders, they usually have their own
15 tools and stuff, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q You guys have, like, a welding mask, right?
18 A Yeah, a welding helmet.
19 Q A welding helmet?
20 A That's right.
21 Q And you have gloves and stuff?
22 A Well, yes. You keep all the stuff.
23 Q Okay. And so when you would go to that
24 7-Eleven, you would have to take all of that stuff with
25 you, right?
19
1 A No, ma'am, because I didn't have it.
2 Q You didn't have any welding equipment?
3 A I didn't have a welding helmet. That costs ...
4 Q So you didn't have a welding helmet?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q So you needed to be provided with that if you
7 got work?
8 A I actually didn't have anything.
9 Q So you didn't even have gloves?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q So you went looking for welding work with no
12 equipment?
13 A Yes, ma'am, because --
14 Q All right. I'm sorry?
15 A Because the welders, whoever is the person that
16 was giving me the job, have those stuff.
17 Q Oh, they would give it to you? Is that the way
18 it normally works?
19 A Yeah. They have it on site.
20 Q Now, with welding, it's like most aspects of
21 construction, you need to get there -- or most
22 construction places, you need to get there early, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q They don't start at 9:00 like we do?
25 A No, ma'am.
20
1 Q Okay. So early guy gets the job, for the most
2 part?
3 A Looking for a job, yes. Earlier, yeah.
4 Q Okay. And so I think you said yesterday you
5 would get up at, like, 4:30 to go to these places?
6 A I would get up at 4:30 and get ready, but I
7 would be out there at least by, like, 6.
8 Q Okay. So we're talking in the morning you would
9 get up that early?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And, I mean, is this every Monday, Tuesday,
12 Wednesday you're going out there looking for work?
13 A 90 percent.
14 Q 90 percent.
15 Now, was it only while you were living with
16 Dennis, or were you also looking for work way back when
17 you were living with Steffon?
18 A Not that -- yes. When I was living with
19 Steffon. So not that frequent. I didn't really find that
20 location until after I get to Dennis house.
21 Q So you weren't looking for work at that location
22 when you were living with Steffon?
23 A No, ma'am. I didn't know about that location
24 yet.
25 Q So you didn't know about that location at the

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1 7-Eleven?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q And just tell me, where is that location, that
4 7-Eleven location?
5 A It's on Kenilworth Avenue. It's across the
6 street from a liquor store and a bus stop.
7 Q It's across the street from a liquor store and a
8 bus stop?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q Pretty close to Annapolis Road?
11 A No.
12 Q It's not close to Annapolis Road?
13 A Well, it's more closer to Riverdale Road.
14 Q Okay.
15 A It's about a block away.
16 Q So when you were living with Steffon, where were
17 you going looking for work? Or were you going looking for
18 work?
19 A I didn't quite know any places to go yet.
20 Q So were you just kind of hanging out waiting for
21 work to come to you? What were you doing?
22 A I wasn't hanging out waiting. I think I was
23 looking online also.
24 Q So, I mean, did you go anywhere looking for
25 work?
22
1 A Not to my recall.
2 Q So you never went looking for work the entire
3 time you lived with Steffon?
4 A I mean, I went places, I just can't remember.
5 Q Well, did you ever go into D.C. looking for
6 work?
7 A No, ma'am, because, I don't know "D.C." D.C.
8 Q You don't know D.C.?
9 A Not often, yes, ma'am.
10 Q Okay. Never went to sort of random construction
11 sites looking for work?
12 A No, ma'am, because I don't know D.C. like that.
13 Q You don't know D.C.?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q Don't know New York Avenue well at all?
16 A I know New York Avenue.
17 Q Okay. Well, that's D.C., right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Did you ever go looking for work on New York
20 Avenue?
21 A No, ma'am. I was going -- I was going somewhere
22 on New York Avenue one day.
23 Q You were going somewhere on New York Avenue one
24 day.
25 Why don't you tell me about that. Where were

23
1 you going on New York Avenue one day?
2 A Well, while I was at the 7-Eleven -- well, not
3 quite the 7-Eleven, but --
4 Q Right. Because it can't be the 7-Eleven,
5 because this is when you're living with Steffon.
6 A Right. I got a job welding a guy's dump truck.
7 Not a dump truck. It's a trash route. And he told me he
8 have a few more to weld, and his welder was actually not
9 in town, so he gave me a location to meet him at.
10 Q So this is when you're at the 7-Eleven, but
11 you're not at the 7 -- how did you meet this guy?
12 A I met him in front of a liquor store.
13 Q So is this the 7-Eleven liquor store or a
14 different one?
15 A No. This is not the liquor store by -- I mean,
16 the liquor store by my sister's house.
17 Q So you're looking -- you're hanging out at a
18 liquor store by your sister's house?
19 A No, ma'am. I was going in to buy a pack of
20 cigarettes. The guy outside was showing one of the guys
21 that his truck was broken, and he's like he's looking for
22 welders, and I overheard that, and I told him I was a
23 welder.
24 Q Well, let's, I guess, talk about this a little
25 bit. Maybe now's a good time.

24
1 So in this case, unlike some of the other
2 witnesses, right, you actually have information about sort
3 of the evidence that the Government has; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am, I've seen the case.
5 Q Okay. And it's not just what has been presented
6 in the past three weeks, you've been getting evidence for
7 years; is that right?
8 A Yes. Since this started.
9 Q So ever since this case came into the system,
10 the Government's been providing you with its evidence,
11 right?
12 MS. PIPE: Objection. Can we get a time?
13 BY MS. BACH:
14 Q Ever since May 21st when you were arrested and
15 there was an arrest warrant presented, the Government has
16 been providing you with evidence; is that right?
17 A I've seen evidence from the case. I didn't know
18 who provided it.
19 Q You didn't know it came from the Government?
20 A Well, I know it came from somebody because my
21 lawyer showed me it, but I don't know who provided it, who
22 shows what.
23 Q Did you know it came from the police?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Okay. So ever since that arrest warrant, you

25
1 know that came from the police, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Okay. And then at some point, you also started
4 seeing letters from the U.S. Attorney's Office, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And you know that's the Government, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q All right. And you've seen probably 50-some
9 letters from the Government, right?
10 A Yeah, I think so.
11 Q And you've seen probably 5, 6,000 pages of
12 documents from the Government, right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And you've seen phone records from the
15 Government, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And you've seen photographs from the Government,
18 right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And you've seen statements from the Government,
21 right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Of the witnesses, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Okay. So not just what they've said in the

26
1 courtroom, you've actually learned about what the
2 witnesses were going to say before they even said it; is
3 that right?
4 A Then I was sitting in the courtroom.
5 Q You're saying you didn't know what they were
6 going to say before that?
7 A No.
8 Q Your attorneys did not share with you what the
9 witnesses were going to say before that?
10 A I mean --
12 THE COURT: If you could rephrase.
13 MS. BACH: Sure.
14 BY MS. BACH:
15 Q You're telling us that you did not know what the
16 witnesses were going to say before you were sitting in
17 that chair?
18 A I saw some witness statement, but not the ones
19 that actually sat up here.
20 Q You didn't see any of that? You're not aware
21 that the Government provided all that material to you?
22 A No.
23 Q No?
24 A Not until I was sitting in the courtroom.

27
1 A Not until I was sitting in the courtroom.
2 Q So you're not aware that months ago all of that
3 information was made available to you?
4 A I just started reading the stuff, ma'am.
5 Q So you didn't know that, is what you're saying?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q And when you say you just started reading
8 through it, you mean while you were sitting here?
9 A Yes, ma'am. When asked to take the stand, I
10 would read what they were saying.
11 Q Leaving aside the people who have testified,
12 you've actually seen stuff about people who haven't even
13 testified here; haven't you?
14 A Yes, ma'am. Those are the ones I saw.
15 Q So you saw all of those before?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And one of the things that you've seen is
18 information that shows that on March 23rd, 2015, you
19 weren't at a 7-Eleven out in Maryland, you were on
20 New York Avenue at 5:00 in the morning; haven't you?
21 A I was stopped. I was pulled over.
22 Q Sure. On New York Avenue, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q You weren't stopped at a 7-Eleven, right?
25 A No, ma'am, because I was driving.

28
1 Q Right. Because you were stopped inbound on
2 New York Avenue, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. Not out at some 7-Eleven looking for
5 work, right?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q Okay.
8 A I was going to work.
9 Q I'm sorry?
10 A I was going to work.
11 Q You were going to work, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q But you just told us that you weren't looking
14 for work while you were living with Steffon, right?
15 A No, ma'am. I wasn't going to 7-Eleven to look
16 for work.
17 Q So you were looking for work while you were
18 living with Steffon?
19 A No. I got that work when --
20 Q My question is, were you looking for work or not
21 while you were living with Steffon?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q So you're not looking for it, it just fell in
24 your lap?
25 A I was -- yes, ma'am. If that's what it was.

29
1 Q So you were looking for work, and you just
2 happened to get pulled over inbound on New York Avenue?
3 A No, ma'am. I got the job when I went to the
4 liquor store to buy some cigarettes.
5 Q Right. And --
6 A The guy gave me --
7 Q -- on March 23rd, you just happened to get
8 pulled over going inbound on New York Avenue?
9 A Yes, ma'am. I was going to the location --
10 Q And where were you going to perform the work?
11 A I was going to the location. He gave me the
12 directions.
13 Q So tell me where it was.
14 A I can't quite remember.
15 Q You don't know where it was?
16 A It's written down on a piece of paper.
17 Q It's written down on a -- well, was it on
18 New York Avenue?
19 A No, ma'am. It was off of New York Avenue.
20 Somewhere on --
21 Q It was off New York Avenue where?
22 A Somewhere on -- somewhere around the Wendy's
23 or -- Wendy's.
24 Q So the Wendy's, it was somewhere around the
25 Wendy's?
30
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And just so we understand, were you meeting this
3 guy there?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. So he was going to just meet you there?
6 A Yes, ma'am. Not at the Wendy's, but at the
7 location. I guess that's where his company was at.
8 Q And he was going to give you, I guess, all of
9 the tools, right, because you don't have any?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q Anything else he was going to provide you?
12 A I was going to do the welding for him on his
13 trash trucks.
14 Q Okay. So other than that, he was going to give
15 you some money?
16 A He was going to pay me when I was done, yes,
17 ma'am.
18 Q Did he pay you?
19 A I never got there.
20 Q You never got there because they stopped you?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q All right. Now, if we could just -- and I guess
23 just to ask you a couple more questions about that before
24 we keep going.
25 The car that you were stopped in that day is the

31
1 blue minivan; is that right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And you were stopped in that car because there
4 were dead tags on that car; is that right?
5 A Also dead tags, and one of the lights was out.
6 Q So one of the lights is out, and it's not
7 registered, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. So the car gets stopped because it's not
10 properly registered?
11 A Yes. I mean, the police told me he saw the
12 lights out. That's why he pulled me over, and it wasn't
13 registered when he run it and all that stuff.
14 Q Okay. And as a result, you actually got
15 arrested for that?
16 A I would say just fingerprint to make sure that I
17 was who I said I was.
18 Q It was bad enough that you couldn't go on to the
19 job; is that fair enough?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Now, you said that in March of 2015 -- when was
22 it that you moved in with Dennis?
23 A I can't quite -- it's the day of -- the first
24 day?
25 Q Yeah.
32
1 A The day of my brother's birthday.
2 Q Right. The day of your brother's birthday that
3 you moved in with Dennis, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am, I think, if I remember the day.
5 Q So you think it was your brother's birthday; is
6 that right?
7 A I think so, yes, ma'am.
8 Q Okay. And you knew that when you moved in with
9 Dennis it was going to be temporary, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q He made that absolutely clear to you, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q I mean, at first you thought you were going to
14 have to sleep in the minivan?
15 A I was prepared to sleep in the minivan.
16 Q You thought that's where you were going to have
17 to sleep?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. And it was your stepmom who actually
20 stepped in and helped you out?
21 A Yeah. She told me after, yes, ma'am.
22 Q Okay. And when you got there, again, no phone
23 plan, right? No cellular service, right?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q So you've got to use that Wi-Fi connection,

33
1 right?
2 A Or the landline.
3 Q Or Dennis's landline, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And Dennis actually had that landline forever;
6 is that right?
7 A Yes. For a long time.
8 Q So ever since pretty much you got here from
9 Guyana, he's had that phone number, right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q No. When did he get that phone number?
12 A The number was changed because of my mother.
13 Q Okay. When was it changed?
15 Q So you said it was changed because of your
16 mother.
17 Was that after she got to the U.S.?
18 A Before she got to the U.S., I think.
19 Q Okay. You don't remember, though, when it was
20 changed?
21 A Yes, before she got to the U.S. I just can't
22 remember the date, time and all that stuff.
23 Q Well, it was the same number back in 2002,
24 right?
25 A I think so.
34
1 Q Okay.
2 A I'm not sure.
3 Q You don't remember that it was the same number
4 back in 2002?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q Well, you knew what it was, right?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q You didn't remember the phone number?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q At all?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 Q Even though it had been the same for 10, 11, 12
13 years?
14 A No, ma'am, because we called -- I always call my
15 father's cell phone.
16 Q You always called your dad on his cell phone?
17 A Yes, ma'am. He worked a lot.
18 Q What was your dad's cell phone number?
19 A I can't remember that either.
20 Q But you always called your dad on your [sic]
21 cell phone, you didn't call the house number?
22 A I called the house number, too.
23 Q Okay. And when you were looking for Darrell in
24 the tow truck, you didn't call your dad on the cell phone,
25 right?
35
1 A No.
2 Q You called the house phone?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. And you're saying that you don't remember
5 the house phone?
6 A No, I don't remember the number, ma'am.
7 Q And you don't remember how long they had that
8 phone number?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q You remember when you used to get checks cashed
11 back in 2002?
12 A Yes, ma'am, I think so.
13 Q Do you remember that you used to get them cashed
14 right around the corner from your house?
15 A At the liquor store. Check cashing card.
16 Q Yep.
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And I'm assuming you told them the truth when
19 you gave them the information, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And do you remember providing them with your
22 dad's address at 6502 Westview?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And do you remember providing them with your
25 dad's phone number of (301) 552-1029?

36
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q You wouldn't have lied to them; would you?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. And so that was the same number that you
5 heard your stepmom testify to was the number in 2015,
6 right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Okay. And back in 2002, just to be clear, we
9 didn't all have cell phones, right?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay.
12 A I wouldn't say everybody.
13 Q Now, you said that the cell phone that you were
14 using was this black LG phone.
15 MS. BACH: And I guess just so we're all on the
16 same page, can we just pull up 6211.
17 Mr. Arrington, if you don't mind. Thank you.
18 BY MS. BACH:
19 Q That's the cell phone we're talking about,
20 right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And how long had you had that phone?
23 A A while. I can't quite remember.
24 Q You think more than a year?
25 A Yeah.
37
1 Q Okay. And you said that the problem was you
2 kept breaking the screen, right?
3 A I kept breaking the screens of phones keeping it
4 in my pocket. Not this phone.
5 Q Oh, so this phone you never broke the screen on?
6 A No, ma'am. I was much careful with this one.
7 Q Okay. So this phone never had a broken screen?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q And you had a number of contacts in that phone,
10 do you remember we were talking about some of those?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And you actually had a contact in that phone for
13 your brother, Darrell, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q You didn't have five, six, seven numbers for
16 him, you had one, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Okay. And that number that you had for him was
19 (240) 601-1903; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Does that sound right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And that's how you would reach him, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And you know that Roxanne Bailey -- that's his

38
1 mom, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And Darrell had had that phone number for years,
4 right?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q He hadn't had that number for years?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q You don't know that that number had been
9 registered to his mom for years?
10 A I don't know how long Darrell had that phone
11 number.
12 Q So you don't know how long he had it?
13 A No, ma'am. That's the number he gave me to
14 reach him.
15 Q And that's the number that you reached him on?
16 A Reached him, yeah. That's the --
17 Q When you would call him, that's the number that
18 you would reach him on, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q Now, we heard your stepmother talking about sort
21 of this routine that you had when you were at their home.
22 And, I guess, you would agree with me that you had sort of
23 this similar routine Monday through Wednesday where you
24 would get up early in the morning and go looking for work;
25 is that right?
39
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q But Thursday and Friday, you would also get up
3 early in the morning and leave the house, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q But you were not looking for work on Thursday
6 and Friday?
7 A Not all of Thursday. All of Thursday and Friday
8 I wouldn't get up early, but when I do get up, I would go
9 running.
10 Q So Pam was wrong about that?
11 A No, she's right.
12 Q Well, Pam said every Thursday and Friday you got
13 up early looking for work. Is that accurate?
14 A No, that isn't accurate.
15 Q Okay. So when Pam said that every Thursday and
16 Friday you got up early in the morning and left the house,
17 is that true or not?
18 A Sometimes I would get up some Thursday and
19 Friday and I'd going running, but it's not looking for
20 work.
21 Q So when you told her every Thursday and Friday
22 you were going looking for work, that was not true?
23 MS. PIPE: Objection, lack of foundation.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 THE WITNESS: I never told her that. I told her

40
1 I go Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
2 BY MS. BACH:
3 Q So you only told Pam that you went going for
4 work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday?
5 A That's what I told Vanessa. I'm pretty sure
6 that's when I told Pam, too.
7 Q So Pam must just be confused?
8 A I would assume so, yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. Because Thursday and Friday you didn't go
10 looking for work, right?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 Q And so you would be gone from the house for five
13 hours running?
14 A No. I was go running first, then I would go to
15 the gym, or sometimes I would come back and get her and
16 then we would go to the gym.
17 Q Well, you heard her testimony that you had this
18 very rigid routine where you would go looking for work,
19 you would come home, then you would go to the gym. Not
20 that you would go out, go to the gym and come back. She
21 had you gone for five hours every Thursday and Friday.
22 A Yes. But on Thursday and Friday, I wouldn't go
23 looking for work.
24 Q So you're saying that that's just incorrect?
25 You weren't gone for five hours every Thursday and Friday?
41
1 A No. There was no reason for me to be gone for
2 five hours Thursday and Friday.
3 Q Okay. So that's wrong?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Now, you did go to the gym pretty much all the
6 time, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Okay. And you actually were always kind of
9 taking pictures of yourself and sending them to people
10 that you cared about, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am. Motivating them to do the same
12 thing.
13 Q All right. And you bulked up pretty quickly,
14 right?
15 A I thought I was a good size, yes, ma'am.
16 Q All right. And you were impressed with that,
17 right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. The point is, you're not some scrawny
20 little guy, right?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q And then you would get back, and you would
23 immediately go on the computer, right? Or the phone.
24 A Yes, my phone.
25 Q And spend all that time talking to Vanessa, for

42
1 the most part?
2 A Yeah. Call Vanessa and Netflix, yes, ma'am.
3 Q And then do some Internet searches, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And so you're the person using your laptop,
6 right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And again, that was given to you by
9 Derrick Ayling?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And you're the person using your phone, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And you're just kind of filling Vanessa in on
14 what's happened all day?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q All right. Now, when we get to May 11th, you
17 said that things were different that day, the routine
18 changed, okay, because you went to Darrell's house that
19 day, right?
20 A May 11th, yes, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. And to be clear, you didn't communicate
22 with Darrell on a Facebook account, right?
23 A No, ma'am. I don't have his Facebook. I don't
24 know his Facebook.
25 Q So he actually has to pick up the phone and call

43
1 you?
2 A If he need to get in contact with me? Darrell?
3 Q Yeah.
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. So tell me, how did -- how did this
6 connection come up that you were to meet Darrell at his
7 house on May 11th?
8 A I just popped up.
9 Q You just showed up at his house on May 11th?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And he just happened to have a job for you?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q What time did you just happen to show up at
14 Darrell's house on May 11th?
15 A I know it's after I left the gym. I'm not quite
16 sure what time it was.
17 Q So did you go to the 7-Eleven that morning?
18 A Well, I went there first.
19 Q So you go to the 7-Eleven first, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Don't get a job?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Then you go to the gym, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Then you just pop up at Darrell's house?

44
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q When was the last time you had just popped up at
3 Darrell's house?
4 A I always popped up at everybody's house.
5 Q You always just pop up.
6 I'm asking when the last time was that you
7 popped up at his house?
8 A A few weeks before then. That's when he told me
9 he was moving.
10 Q A few weeks before was the last time you had
11 just popped up at his house?
12 A Well, not at that place, but I popped up where
13 he was, the location.
14 Q Okay. So the last time you had popped up at
15 this house was when?
16 A May 11th.
17 Q So I'm saying the last time before that.
18 A No. That was the first time.
19 Q That's the first time you had ever popped up at
20 that house?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q How many times had you been to that house?
23 A Twice.
24 Q So you had only been there twice?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
45
1 Q Was this the second time or the third time?
2 A Only been there twice. This was the second
3 time.
4 Q Okay. So you had only been there one time
5 before?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. What's the address?
8 A I don't know the address.
9 Q Okay. When you had been there the one time
10 before, who did you go with?
11 A With Darrell.
12 Q Okay. So when you had been there the one time
13 before, how did you get in the building?
14 A Darrell, because I helped him move in the
15 building.
16 Q So you helped Darrell move in the building the
17 time before?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q So the one time you went there, you helped
20 Darrell move into the building, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And then you went there this time on May 11th,
23 right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Just popping up, right?

46
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q How long had Darrell been living there, do you
3 think? Months? Weeks? Years?
4 A Maybe a month.
5 Q Maybe a month?
6 A That's right.
7 Q Okay. And so when you went to help Darrell move
8 in, he's not knocking on the window to get in, right?
9 A No, ma'am. He had the keys.
10 Q He had keys to get in, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q So this day that you just pop up, you just pick
13 a window on your own and start knocking on it?
14 A No, ma'am. Because I helped him move in, I know
15 where his apartment was, I know where his window is.
16 Q So you don't ring a buzzer, right?
17 A I don't recall. There's no buzzer.
18 Q There's no buzzer?
19 A I don't recall it.
20 Q So you don't know if there's a buzzer?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q Instead, you decide to just go knock on a
23 window?
24 A Because his window is just right there.
25 Q So you remember where the window was?

47
1 A His apartment is right there to the left.
2 Q Okay. So his apartment is where to the left?
3 A It's when you go in the front door, it's right
4 to the left.
5 Q Okay. And so when you knock on the window, who
6 all's in the apartment?
7 A Who else was in the apartment?
8 Q Yeah.
9 A Only Darrell is all.
10 Q Only Darrell and -- I'm sorry?
11 A Only Darrell.
12 Q Only Darrell?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q You said Darrell has a child; is that right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Boy or a girl?
18 Q You can't quite remember? You've cut the kid's
19 hair.
20 A Not that son.
21 Q Oh, not that son. So it's a son?
22 A I cut one of his son's hair. Darrell got more
23 than one child.
24 Q So which one is this?
25 A This one that live with Darrell is a little

48
1 baby. I don't think that baby have even hair yet.
2 Q So the person that's living with Darrell in this
3 location is a baby?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And who's this child's mother?
6 A I don't know that --
7 Q You don't know --
8 A -- girlfriend.
9 Q -- this child's mother?
10 A No, ma'am. I just met her the first day when I
11 helped him move in.
12 Q So you help him move into this apartment with
13 some woman and there's a baby?
14 A Yes, ma'am. The mother of his child.
15 Q Of this baby?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q That's who he's living with?
18 A Yes, ma'am. That's who I met the first day I
19 helped him move in.
20 Q He's not living with a son named Christopher?
21 A No, ma'am. There was -- I don't know who else
22 was living there. When I helped him move in there, it was
23 just him and the little baby and his girlfriend.
24 Q Why don't you describe this woman for me.
25 A She's short, dark-skinned, heavy-set and pretty.

49
1 That's all I can remember.
2 Q And this baby, how old was this baby when you
3 helped him move in?
4 A I don't know how old was the baby, but the baby
5 was walking, because I kept trying to pull anything glassy
6 from the baby's hands when we was moving.
7 Q And you just don't know if it was a boy or a
8 girl?
9 A I can't remember.
10 Q So you just pop up there and Darrell says, I've
11 got an idea, let's do something together, me, you and
12 Steffon on Wednesday?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q He doesn't say, I've got a job for us on
15 Wednesday?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. He says, me, you, Steffon, got a job for
18 us on Wednesday, right?
19 A Can you repeat the question?
20 Q He says to you, me, you, Steffon, we've got a
21 job on Wednesday; is that right?
22 A He said him and Steffon have a job for me on
23 Wednesday, yes, ma'am.
24 Q Right. To include you, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
50
1 Q And you know that it's not a PCM job, right?
2 A No, ma'am. He said it was painting and drywall.
3 I didn't know it wasn't PCM. He told me it wasn't.
5 A I didn't know it wasn't a PCM job.
6 Q So at that point, you thought it could be a PCM
7 job?
8 A No. I just -- if Darrell is telling me they
9 have a job for me, it's not going to be PCM. PCM would be
10 the one who told me that.
11 Q Right. So you knew it wasn't a PCM job?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q But he told you it was a job with Steffon; is
14 that right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And you knew that it couldn't be a PCM job
17 because you had actually been fired from PCM; is that
18 right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And one of the reasons that you were fired from
21 PCM is because you wouldn't comply with OSHA regulations,
22 right?
23 A I can't --
24 Q You wouldn't wear the hard hat when they told
25 you to put the hard hat on your head; is that right?

51
1 A I can't -- yes, ma'am.
2 Q Yes. That's why you got fired, right?
3 A I actually can't remember none of that.
4 Q Was it yes or you can't remember?
5 A I just can't remember.
6 Q You can't remember?
7 A I just know --
8 Q If that's what PCM would tell us, are you going
9 to dispute that?
10 A If that's what they say, that's what they say.
11 Q Because you wouldn't wear a hard hat, you lost
12 your job?
14 Q And the person who got you that job was Steffon;
15 is that right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Now, you knew that Steffon worked all the time
18 for PCM; is that right?
19 A Yes. That was his job.
20 Q Did you ask, well, how is Steffon going to have
21 time for a side job in the middle of the day?
22 A Because he always do.
23 Q Oh, he works side jobs all the time in the
24 middle of the day?
25 A He always gets side jobs. I don't know whether

52
1 it's the day he's working or not working. I never ask
2 those questions.
3 Q You had never worked a side job with Steffon
4 before; is that right?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q All right. Tell us again, what happens on
7 May 13th when you show up at PCM?
8 A When I show up at PCM?
9 Q Yeah. On May 13th.
10 A I parked the van and Darrell come walking up to
11 the van.
12 Q And what time do you get there?
13 A I get there about 6, 6:05 at least. I know it
14 was about five to ten minutes after 6.
15 Q Okay. And you remember that?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. And when you get there, where does
18 Darrell come from?
19 A He came from, like, the -- well, from where I
20 was parked, he came from the back of the van. So the
21 street side.
22 Q Did you see a car?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q He just walks up?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
53
1 Q Okay. And when Darrell gets up to you, he tells
2 you, sorry, we don't need you anymore, we just need your
3 car; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. And at this point you say, I'm all right
6 with that, but I want some money for the car?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Okay. As long as I get at least $200 for it,
9 right?
10 A No, ma'am. I told him as long as they give me
11 $300, they can have the van.
12 Q Oh, as long as it's at least $300?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. Now, to be clear while you're sitting
15 there in that parking lot at PCM, you don't see Steffon,
16 right?
17 A No, ma'am.
18 Q Never once?
19 A Never once.
20 Q No communications with Steffon about this job,
21 right?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q Okay. Now, at this point, you think you're
24 going to do some legit -- up until this point, you thought
25 you were going to do some legit drywall work; is that

54
1 right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Drywall and painting work, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q You have your backpack with you, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. And you said you had some stuff in there
8 because you thought you were going to be working all day,
9 right?
10 A Yes, ma'am. Some bottles of water.
11 Q Some bottles of water.
12 What else do you have in that backpack?
13 A Just bottles of water.
14 Q Really? What are you wearing to go painting in?
15 A The clothes I was had -- the clothes I had on.
16 Q Well, what were you wearing?
17 A White shirt.
18 Q White shirt and what else?
19 A Blue jeans.
20 Q White shirt, blue jeans. Good jeans?
21 A Yeah, blue jeans.
22 Q Blue jeans?
23 A Because I didn't have no painting clothes, so I
24 just wear a white shirt and blue jeans.
25 Q You didn't have any painting clothes?

55
1 A No, ma'am, because when we paint inside, we just
2 put on a white shirt, blue jeans and sneakers.
3 Q Well, I mean, some people just put on old
4 clothes when they paint, right?
5 A Well, it was old, but ...
6 Q I'm sorry?
7 A It was -- it was -- it was old, but not that
8 old.
9 Q You bring anything else with you?
10 A My phone.
11 Q Your phone.
12 Anything else to do the drywall and the
13 painting?
14 A No, because I've never done that before. They
15 have all the tools.
16 Q Who has all the tools?
17 A Steffon.
18 Q Steffon has all the tools?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q You haven't seen Steffon, right?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q So you don't bring a razor knife to cut the
23 drywall?
24 A No, ma'am. I don't own none of those.
25 Q You don't own a razor knife?

56
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q No cutting knife? You would never own a knife?
5 THE WITNESS: I won't say I would never own a
6 knife. I didn't have any drywall knife.
7 BY MS. BACH:
8 Q Well, I mean, a drywall knife is not a special
9 knife, it's a little razor knife, right?
10 A It was a knife with a lot of -- it looks like a
11 little saw.
12 Q It looks like a little what?
13 A It looks like a little saw.
14 Q So it's a special kind of knife?
15 A Kind of, sort of, yes, ma'am.
16 Q You've never seen anybody cut drywall with a
17 razor knife?
18 A No. But I've seen they use a box cutter.
19 Q A box cutter.
20 You didn't bring a box cutter?
21 A No, ma'am. I didn't have a box cutter.
22 Q Because you don't have a box cutter?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q All right. Never had a box cutter?

57
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. I used to work at
3 Walmart at night, so I had a box cutter then.
4 BY MS. BACH:
5 Q But you just didn't have one this day?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q And didn't bring any gloves, of course?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Right. Okay.
10 A Steffon keeps all of that.
11 Q So you just get in the car with your backpack
12 and some water and a phone? That's it?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And at this point -- I mean, you're planning to
15 be gone all day doing this work; is that right?
16 A Well, how long the work take I was going to be
17 gone.
18 Q All right. But it's a one-day assignment,
19 right?
20 A I didn't how many days it was going to be.
21 Q All right. How much did you think you were
22 going to get out of it?
23 A Pay-wise?
24 Q Yeah.
25 A I thought he was going to pay me some decent

58
1 money.
2 Q What's decent money?
3 A $100 a day.
4 Q Okay. How many days do you think it was going
5 to be?
6 A I didn't know how many days it was going to be.
7 Q All right. Well, when you testified yesterday,
8 you said they told you they had some work for you on
9 Wednesday, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q Okay. You didn't say it was going to be multi
12 days, it was work on Wednesday, right?
13 A Yes, ma'am. They have a job for me on
14 Wednesday.
15 Q Okay. So that's $100 a day, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q So you thought you were going to make $100,
18 right?
19 A At least, yes, ma'am.
20 Q And instead, you don't make $100, you get told
21 that they'll give you $300 just for using your van, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And that upset you?
24 A It didn't upset me. I was disappointed that I
25 wasn't -- I didn't actually get a chance to work.

59
1 Q You're disappointed that you don't have to do
2 anything and you're going to get paid $300, as opposed to
3 going and busting your butt doing drywall work and getting
4 100?
5 A Because I still -- I just still wanted to do
6 something. I was working.
7 Q Oh, because you wanted to work for the $100?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Now, Darrell had a car, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am. Every time I see him, he's driving.
11 Q Sure.
12 Steffon, he's got access to all these PCM tools,
13 right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Got a PCM truck, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And again, you think this is legit drywall work,
18 right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And it didn't strike you as odd that they want
21 to pay you $300 for a minivan?
22 A No.
23 Q No. You can rent a truck at Home Depot for $50,
24 and they want to give you $300 for your unregistered
25 minivan, doesn't strike you as odd?

60
1 A No, ma'am, because I know there's times when my
2 brother want to go somewhere but he couldn't use the van.
3 Q So it's not strange to you at all that they
4 would rather pay you $300 for an unregistered minivan?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q And you're upset that now you get to not do
7 anything and just get paid $300, right? You're
8 disappointed?
9 A That I didn't get to work, yes, ma'am.
10 Q Right.
11 Now, at this point, you said that you and
12 Darrell go up to Silver Spring; is that right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. And you're sure it's Silver Spring,
15 right?
16 A Yes. I saw a sign that say something Silver
17 Spring. That's where I was going, so I said Silver
18 Spring.
19 Q And what you testified to on direct is that you
20 later find out that this is the same house where this guy
21 Garnett lives, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q You figure that out a week later, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Okay. So definitely not Gaithersburg, it's

61
1 Silver Spring?
2 A I'm thinking, yeah, it was Silver Spring. I saw
3 a sign that said it.
4 Q All right. And so you go up to Silver Spring,
5 you don't know what Darrell does -- oh, wait. You have to
6 get food first, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Right. You get food first, and then you go up
9 to Silver Spring; is that right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And I guess, when we were talking about this
12 before, one of the things that you were provided in
13 discovery in this case were phone records, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Phone records for that (240) 601-1903 number,
16 right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And you know that those phone records for
19 Darrell Wint show that his phone is nowhere near 3201
20 Woodland Drive on May 13th; don't you?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And you know that they show that his phone is
23 nowhere near 3201 Woodland Drive, Northwest on May 14th;
24 don't you?
25 MS. PIPE: Objection. Can we approach?

62
1 THE COURT: Yes. Parties can approach.
3 MS. PIPE: I think for the points that they have
4 data from, she can say that, but there are multiple points
5 on those records where there is --
6 MS. BACH: It's his state of mind to show that
7 he's concocted this story. He can try to point those
8 things out. It's all about his state of mind.
9 MS. PIPE: Very well, but I -- my objection is
10 that it's misstating the evidence. That's my objection.
11 THE COURT: But to the extent that it goes to
12 his state of mind, and why he's giving the account that he
13 did, I'm going to permit Ms. Bach to continue.
14 MS. PIPE: Very well.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 (Open court.)
17 BY MS. BACH:
18 Q And you know that on May 14th, 2015, it shows
19 that his phone is not at 3201 Woodland Drive, Northwest,
20 right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Okay. And so you've had those records for a
23 long time, right?
24 A I've seen the records.
25 Q You've seen the records?

63
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And you've had a lot of time to look at them,
3 right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And you knew that you had to come up with an
6 explanation for why his phone is not anywhere near 3201
7 Woodland Drive?
8 A I don't have an explanation for it because I
9 don't know where his phone was.
10 Q Well, we're stopping in Silver Spring now,
11 right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q Okay. And now that's what you're testifying to,
14 right?
15 A Yes, ma'am, because that's the truth.
16 Q Sure.
17 And I guess in addition to having his phone
18 records, you also have the records as to what it is
19 Garnett Williams provided in terms of his statement; is
20 that right?
21 A I've never seen his statement.
22 Q You've never seen his statement?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q You don't know that that was provided by the
25 Government?
64
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q You don't know that his transcript was provided
3 by the Government?
4 A No, ma'am. No, ma'am.
5 Q So after this stop for some reason in Silver
6 Spring, you go to Ed's house, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And you go to Ed's house because you're so
9 disappointed that you're going to get $300 for not doing
10 anything, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And when you get to Ed's house -- how long have
13 you known Ed? Or not now.
14 How long had you known Ed in 2015?
15 A In 2015?
16 Q Sure.
17 A I can't quite remember how long, but I've known
18 him for a minute.
19 Q More than a month?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q More than a year?
22 A No.
23 Q So somewhere between one month and a year; is
24 that fair?
25 A Yeah.
65
1 Q And you go to Ed's house -- I mean, you've got a
2 bunch of family in this area, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Lots of cousins, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Brothers, sisters, half brothers, half sisters,
7 right?
8 A Yes, ma'am. All of them in Riverdale.
9 (Reporter interrupted for clarification.)
10 THE COURT: Hold up.
11 MS. BACH: Oh, I'm sorry.
12 THE WITNESS: All of them in Riverdale,
13 Maryland.
14 THE COURT: You can proceed.
15 BY MS. BACH:
16 Q But you go to Ed's house instead?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And you said Ed had done some work on your
19 minivan before; is that right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Is Ed the person who had spray painted the back
22 windows of the minivan black, or was that somebody else?
23 A That was actually me.
24 Q That was you?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
66
1 Q Now, tell me, Ed -- how old was Ed back in 2015?
2 A I don't know his age, but he was old.
3 Q He was old?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q You don't know how old?
6 A No, ma'am. I never asked him how old he was.
7 Q Okay. Tell me what Ed looked like.
8 A He's dark-skinned. Well, he was bald-headed
9 back then. Dark-skinned, bald-headed, big lips.
10 Q Do you know who he lived with?
11 A I know his girlfriend always be there. I don't
12 know --
13 Q You knew his girlfriend?
14 A -- if she lives there.
15 I don't "know her" know her, but I've seen his
16 girlfriend.
17 Q Ed was 52 back then; does that sound about
18 right?
19 A I don't know. I just know he was old.
20 Q Ed was a cocaine addict, right?
21 A Yes, he did drugs.
22 Q So he used cocaine, not marijuana, right?
23 A I don't know what drugs he did.
24 Q Well, you said --
25 A I just know he did drugs.

67
1 Q -- on direct he was using marijuana; do you
2 remember?
3 A I know he does drugs, yes, ma'am.
4 Q Well, no.
5 You said on direct he was using marijuana that
6 day and it made you uncomfortable that day; do you
7 remember?
8 A I never said anything that makes me
9 uncomfortable. I can't recall it.
10 Q You don't remember saying he was using marijuana
11 and you don't do that, it made you uncomfortable, so you
12 started drinking?
13 A I started drinking because I don't do drugs.
14 Q Right. You don't remember saying he was using
15 marijuana?
16 A Probably -- well, I probably said it, yes,
17 ma'am.
18 Q Okay. He didn't use marijuana, he used cocaine,
19 right?
20 A I don't know what -- all the drugs Ed used. I
21 just know he does drugs.
22 Q Okay. Well, did you see him using marijuana?
23 That's what you testified that he was using.
24 A Yeah. People there was smoking.
25 Q Okay. I'm asking you, you said that Ed was

68
1 using marijuana?
2 A I can't recall if I said I see him smoking --
3 actually smoking.
4 Q You told the jury Ed was using marijuana.
5 A Everybody was smoking.
6 Q You told the jury Ed was using marijuana.
7 Was Ed using marijuana?
8 A Okay. He was using marijuana.
9 Q So --
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q So Ed was using marijuana, that's what you're
12 saying?
13 A If that's what I said, yeah, that's what --
14 Q So if that's what you said yesterday, that's it?
15 A Because I can't recall if -- I know Ed smokes,
16 there was smoking on that day. I don't smoke, so he
17 offered me a drink, and I drink.
18 Q So you don't know what Ed was using; is that
19 right?
20 A I don't know all the drugs Ed does. I don't.
21 Q So when you told the jury Ed was using
22 marijuana, that was not true?
23 A Yes, he was smoking marijuana.
24 Q So Ed was smoking marijuana, that's what you're
25 saying?
69
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q Okay. And you know that Ed was a cocaine user,
3 right?
4 A No, ma'am. I don't know all the drugs.
5 MS. PIPE: Objection, asked and answered.
6 BY MS. BACH:
8 A No, ma'am.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 BY MS. BACH:
11 Q You didn't know that Ed was a heroin user; is
12 that right?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q You didn't know that Ed was a sex offender?
15 A No, ma'am. I never asked him.
16 Q You didn't know any of that?
17 A I didn't get into his background or ask all of
18 that. I just wanted work done on my van.
19 Q So I guess the point is, the 52-year-old addict,
20 that's where you went to hang out because you were so
21 disappointed?
22 A Yes, ma'am. There's a lot of people that goes
23 over there to hang out.
24 Q Ed's the kind of guy that will fix the van on
25 the side for a couple extra dollars; is that right?

70
1 A Yes, he does mechanics.
2 Q But he does it all kind of on the side?
3 A I'm confused what you mean. I'm sorry.
4 Q Sure. He'll sort of give you a better price
5 than if you go to, like, an AutoZone or something?
6 A Oh, yes, ma'am.
7 Q He kind of does it unofficially, does that make
8 sense? Not in a bad way.
9 A Yes. I mean, he didn't have a company, but you
10 go to him, and he would work on a car or a van.
11 Q And he's the kind of guy that will pretty much
12 do anything on a car if you give him some money for it,
13 right?
14 A As long as he know how to do it, he will give
15 you a price, yes, ma'am.
16 Q Okay. He'll do anything for a couple bucks,
17 right?
18 A Mechanical. That's all I know about.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Working on cars for money.
21 Q He'll do anything related to a car for money?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q All right. Now, you said that some guy came out
24 of the house at some point --
25 A Yes, ma'am.
71
1 Q -- with -- while you were there; is that right?
2 A Yes, ma'am. He was smoking.
3 Q What did he look like?
4 A I know he was tall with dreads. Because at that
5 time, I told him if he cut his dreads off, he could give
6 them to me so I could make mine long.
8 A He was tall, dark-skinned, and he had long
9 dreads. And I told him if he cut his dreads off, he can
10 give it to me so I can make mine long. That's all I
11 remember.
12 Q And I guess -- your dreads are very important to
13 you; aren't they?
14 A Yes, ma'am. It's my hair. I like my hair.
15 Q You like your hair, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And this wouldn't actually be the first time
18 that you had put extensions in your dreads to make them
19 longer, right?
20 A No, ma'am.
21 Q You had actually done that once before using
22 your mom's hair, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am. She told me I could take her dreads
24 and make mine longer.
25 Q That's actually something we disclosed to you in

72
1 a discovery letter; isn't it?
2 A No, ma'am, I haven't seen that.
3 Q You didn't see that letter that we sent to you?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q So other than the fact that this guy had dreads
6 and was dark-skinned, anything else -- and tall, do you
7 remember anything else?
8 A He was smoking. That's all -- I get out of the
9 van, that's all.
10 Q Smoking what? Like a cigarette or something
11 else?
12 A A cigarette.
13 Q Did you get his name?
14 A Yes, but I forgot his name. I can't remember
15 his name.
16 Q Did he stay in the house, or did he leave?
17 A He stick around for a little bit.
18 Q But you don't remember his name?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q And just to be clear, I guess, you know Ed's
21 dead, right?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q You didn't know Ed died a year ago?
24 A No, ma'am. I don't have no -- I couldn't call
25 Ed when I was locked up. Ed don't have a phone.

73
1 Q You had no idea?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q So you get to Ed's house, and you accidentally
4 leave your phone in the minivan; is that right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And when you realize that, you don't try to call
7 anybody; do you?
8 A Because all the phone numbers is in my phone.
9 Q Right.
10 A I don't know any numbers off my head.
11 Q And you can't remember anybody's phone number?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q Can't remember your house phone that you had
14 lived at ten years ago, right?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q And -- well, we've -- you already told us you
17 know how to call 411, that's how you got the number from
18 AIW, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am, because that's 411.
20 Q Well, what does that mean?
21 A It's just 411.
22 Q Well, people are listed in 411; aren't they?
23 A I never tried that before. I didn't know.
24 Q You've never called 411 to get somebody's phone
25 number?
74
1 A Private residence?
2 Q Yeah, private residence.
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Well, how about PCM, right, Steffon's supposed
5 to be at this job site with your brother Darrell, why
6 didn't you just call PCM and reach out to Steffon?
7 A Call Steffon on that day?
8 Q Yeah, that day.
9 A It wasn't a PCM job.
10 Q You don't think PCM had a number for Steffon?
11 A Yeah, PCM had a number for Steffon, but I -- no.
12 Q You're abandoned at a house without a phone,
13 without your car, and you don't try to call anybody?
14 A I don't -- I didn't think that, no. It makes
15 quite sense, but I didn't think of it back then.
16 Q Right. So you decide you'll just sit there and
17 wait?
18 A Because I waited for Darrell to bring my van
19 back. I didn't know Darrell was not going to come back.
20 Q All right. Well, when he didn't come back, did
21 you start trying to make some phone calls?
22 A It was still fate that he was coming back. I
23 couldn't really call nobody, because I don't have nobody's
24 number. I didn't know nobody's number by head.
25 Q Well, you knew where you lived; didn't you?

75
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q I mean, get a bus, go home?
3 A I didn't think Darrell was not going to come
4 back. I just think they was finishing up at a job and
5 running late.
6 Q So I guess at what point is it too late to just
7 get on a bus and go home?
8 A It wasn't -- it was actually -- I wouldn't say
9 it was a point, but after the drinking, I fell asleep.
10 Q Right, the drinking.
11 When did you start the drinking?
12 A After I -- close to 5. Between -- close to
13 5:00.
14 Q So around 5:00 you just start drinking?
15 A Because I took one drink because I know Darrell
16 was on his way back soon, because he said between 5 and 6.
17 Figured by the time I finished the first drink, he would
18 be outside.
19 Q So you take one drink of what?
20 A It was vodka. I know it was white. I don't
21 know exactly what kind of vodka it was.
22 Q So you sat there all day, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q What did you do?
25 A After Ed would fix cars, we're just outside and

76
1 hang out and just talk.
2 Q So you're hanging out with Ed, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Outside?
5 A And everybody else, yes, ma'am.
6 Q Well, who's everybody else?
7 A All his friends comes and goes.
8 Q Who are they? Tell us who they are.
9 A I don't know these people, ma'am.
10 Q So the only person you can remember is Ed, who's
11 dead?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q All right. So you sit outside with Ed, and at
14 5:00, you take a drink of vodka?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And then what happens?
17 A And then we just have a conversation. I was
18 waiting for Darrell to come back.
19 Q What are you guys talking about?
20 A Talking about cars.
21 Q All right. You like cars, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q You know a lot about cars; don't you?
24 A I know a lot about them.
25 Q You wanted nice cars; didn't you?

77
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Okay. I mean, nothing wrong with wanting nice
3 cars, right?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q Couldn't afford them, though; could you?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q So Darrell doesn't come back.
8 When do you start drinking some more?
9 A I was just hanging out and drinking waiting for
10 Darrell who was on his way back, yes, ma'am.
11 Q So, I guess, how long do you drink?
12 A I can't quite remember what time I stopped
13 drinking. I know I stopped when I started feeling sick in
14 the stomach from not eating.
15 Q So you stopped drinking at some point because
16 you haven't eaten anything?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Why didn't you get something to eat?
19 A I didn't have enough money.
20 Q You didn't have enough money to get any food?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q There was nowhere around there to get any food?
23 A There was places around to get food, but --
24 because when I leave the house, I had money in the house,
25 but I don't take a certain amount of money with me because

78
1 I don't want to spend past what I don't want to spend.
2 Q Okay. So how much money did you leave in the
3 house?
4 A I think it was, like, over $200.
5 Q So you had $200 that you left at Dennis's house?
6 A It was a little over $200, yes, ma'am.
7 Q Where did that money come from?
8 A From my sister from Guyana, she send it to me.
9 Q Your sister, Onika?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And she had recently sent you that money; is
12 that right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q So that $200 that you had in the house was part
15 of the money that Onika sent you?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q Okay. And then the other money was in -- you
18 said you took some money with you?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q Okay. But you don't know how much it was?
21 A How much money I took with me when I left the
22 house?
23 Q Yeah. How much did you take with you?
24 A I took $5 with me.
25 Q So you didn't have enough to eat with?

79
1 A No, I had enough to eat. That was if I get the
2 job, that would be the money I get McDonald's for lunch.
3 Q Okay. So you had already had breakfast.
4 Who paid for breakfast?
5 A Darrell.
6 Q Okay. So Darrell bought you breakfast that
7 morning?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q So you had $5 that you were planning to use for
10 lunch on the 13th, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. You didn't get the job, right?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q But you still had $5?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Why not just go by the McDonald's?
17 A I didn't know where a McDonald's was, and then I
18 was drinking, so I didn't want to just walk outside
19 drinking.
20 Q I'm talking about before you're drinking. You
21 don't start drinking until 5:00. You're there all day.
22 Why didn't you go get lunch?
23 A I wasn't hungry then, ma'am.
24 Q You're not hungry.
25 So you don't eat anything, and then you start to

80
1 feel sick, so you stop drinking?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Any idea what time that was?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. Do you have any idea sort of the last
6 time that you remember?
7 A Last time I remember what?
8 Q Like, sort of the last time that -- like, do you
9 remember 8:00? 9:00? I'm trying to figure out about what
10 time it was that you sort of stop remembering things and
11 went to sleep.
12 Do you have any idea about what time you went to
13 sleep?
14 A No, ma'am. I just remember Ed telling me to lay
15 on the couch for a minute.
16 Q Go where? I'm sorry.
17 A Go lay on the couch for a minute.
18 Q Okay. So you went in on the couch, and you fell
19 asleep?
20 A I lay on the couch. I don't know when I fell
21 asleep until I woke up. I thought I just dozed off for
22 five or ten minutes.
23 Q And then it's one of those things where you doze
24 off and you're kind of like, oh, goodness, I've been
25 asleep for a couple of hours?

81
1 A Yes, ma'am. I woke up and the place was kind of
2 dark.
3 Q Okay. And that's around 1 in the morning, you
4 thought?
5 A It was after 1, yes, ma'am.
6 Q Okay. And you knew that because why?
7 A Because there's a big clock right there in the
8 living room.
9 Q Sure.
10 And then did you go back to sleep?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. And how long did you sleep that time?
13 A I got back up around -- after 10:00.
14 Q Right.
15 And I guess, I mean, to be clear, you're just
16 sleeping, you're not, like, passed out or anything, right?
17 A Passed out. Well, not passed out, but tired
18 enough to ...
19 Q Well, right. You were asleep, but you're not
20 passed out drunk?
21 A No. Just real hung over.
22 Q Okay. So you're hung over the next morning,
23 meaning you don't feel so well, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q But when you're asleep, I mean, you hear, like,

82
1 what's going on around you, right?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q Okay. My question I guess is, if somebody walks
4 into the room and is like, hey, Daron, get up, are you
5 passed out, or will you hear that? Do you understand?
6 A Before no, but I think closer to the morning,
7 yes.
8 Q Right.
9 A Because when I wake up, I heard footprints.
10 Q So when you're starting to wake up, people are
11 waking you up, like there are noises, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And so you're hearing kind of footsteps around
14 you, that's what kind of gets you woke up?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Prior to that, you didn't, you know, hear
17 anybody, you know, kind of trying to wake you up or
18 anything, right?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q You didn't hear any loud strange noises while
21 you were sleeping?
22 A No, ma'am, I didn't hear anything.
23 Q Okay. Nothing unusual, right?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q No gunshots or anything like that?

83
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q And you wake up, and you think it's sometime
3 after 10:00?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And what happens when you wake up?
6 A I washed my face and went outside.
7 Q And when you go outside, I guess, who do you
8 see?
9 A When I go outside, I was waiting around for a
10 minute to see if somebody showed up, and I would just ask
11 them for a ride home.
12 Q And this is sometime after 10:00?
13 A No. This was -- I went outside after 10:00. I
14 don't know quite what time that actually was. I mean, I
15 didn't know how long I was waiting outside.
16 Q Okay.
17 A But I was outside.
18 Q So some time after 10 you go outside, but you
19 don't know how long you waited?
20 A No, ma'am. I was out there for a minute.
21 Q You were out there for a minute?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
24 A Then a blue convertible Porsche pulled up.
25 Q Okay. And it's not just a blue convertible

84
1 Porsche, it's a special kind of blue Porsche, right?
2 A I saw a convertible blue Porsche. I didn't know
3 what kind of Porsche it was.
4 Q When it pulls up, you know it's a 911 Turbo,
5 right?
6 A I know it's a 911 Turbo.
7 Q You know that's an expensive car, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q You know it costs about six figures?
10 A No, ma'am.
12 A I just know it's not a regular car that anybody
13 could own.
14 Q I'm sorry?
15 A I just know it's not a car that anybody could
16 own.
17 Q You know it's not a regular car that anybody
18 could own.
19 By that you mean it's a very expensive car?
20 A Yes, ma'am. I would think in the same price
21 range of BMW and Mercedes.
22 Q So you think it's in the same price range as BMW
23 or Mercedes?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And just to be clear when you woke up, you still

85
1 had that $5 in your pocket, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And you didn't go outside and get on a bus?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q There are buses in Southeast, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. You just decided that you're going to go
8 outside and wait and hope that somebody comes and picks
9 you up?
10 A I wanted to save as much money as possible. I
11 wasn't working, I didn't want to spend unnecessary money.
12 If I could get a ride home, I would just get a ride home
13 and save the money.
14 Q All right. So the blue Porsche pulls up, and
15 this is -- who's in the car?
16 A I didn't know who was in the car at first.
17 Q Well, at some point you figure it out, right?
18 A Yeah. After he stepped out the car, I realized
19 it's Darrell.
20 Q Now, I just want to ask you, I guess, a couple
21 questions again in terms of the information that you've
22 had available to you in this case.
23 As early as May 21st of 2015, the day that you
24 were arrested, you knew that the Government had
25 information that you were radio silent on the Internet, on

86
1 your phone and computer for 36 hours on May 13th and 14th
2 of 2015, you knew that, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q It was in the arrest warrant, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am, because I also knew I didn't call
6 nobody in those days.
7 Q Right. And you knew more recently, but at least
8 months ago, that the Government had talked to family
9 members of yours about whether or not they knew where you
10 were during that time frame, right?
11 A I would assume, yes, ma'am.
12 Q Well, not assume. You knew, right?
13 A My sisters and brothers, yes, ma'am.
14 Q Sisters, brothers, mother, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Father?
17 A Father, stepmother.
18 Q Right. Everybody, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q You knew we had talked to Maurice Ray, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am, because he is the first person that
22 visited me when I was locked up.
23 Q You knew that none of those people could provide
24 you with an alibi?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
87
1 Q Right. And so you're testifying now that it was
2 Ed whose house you were at on May 13th and 14th?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q And Ed again is dead?
5 A I gave my lawyer that information.
6 Q Ed is dead; is that right?
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
10 BY MS. BACH:
11 Q And again, you also had information about where
12 exactly that blue Porsche was located on May 14th, you got
13 that information in discovery, too; didn't you?
15 Q Sure.
16 You heard -- we can just talk about what you've
17 heard in trial.
18 You heard in trial, you heard Claudia Alfaro,
19 the daughter of Vera Figueroa, testify that she saw Amy's
20 blue Porsche at 9:30 in the morning on May 14th, you heard
21 her testify to that, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q So you know that you can't say Darrell picked

88
1 you up before 9:30, right? It's got to be after 10.
2 A I'm telling you that because that's the truth.
3 Q I'm asking you, did you hear her testify to
4 that?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q You also had the phone records about where it
7 was Savvas Savopoulos's phone was bouncing off of cell
8 towers; is that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And you saw the testimony of Agent Fennern;
11 didn't you?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And again, when we're talking about Savvas
14 Savopoulos's phone -- and we'll get to this -- we're
15 talking about those two white iPhones that you had on
16 May 14th; is that right?
17 A I don't know where those phones come from.
18 Q Really? You don't know that one of those phones
19 or both of those phones belonged to the Savopouloses?
20 A No, ma'am.
21 Q You haven't figured that out yet?
22 A No, ma'am, because the police have never showed
23 up at the house.
24 Q And you did not know that we had the records
25 showing that inside of your phone, you had typed 24 and K

89
1 about the location of the minivan?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And you knew at this point, that there were two
4 Australian employees who saw a man who looked exactly like
5 you ducking underneath the garage at 3201 Woodland Drive
6 right after noon, you knew that; didn't you?
7 A Yes, ma'am, because I'm the person who --
8 Q You knew all of that?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And you knew all of that before coming in here
11 with this timeline in terms of when it is Darrell Wint
12 just happens to show up at Ed's house on May 14th in this
13 blue Porsche convertible?
15 Q You knew all of that before you came up with the
16 timeline in terms of when Darrell Wint showed up at the
17 house of Ed in the blue Porsche?
18 A I didn't come up with that timeline, ma'am. I'm
19 telling you the truth of what happened.
20 Q You didn't come up with a timeline?
21 A I'm just telling you the truth of when Darrell
22 actually showed up.
23 Q You haven't been sitting over here writing a
24 timeline?
25 A A timeline of when Darrell showed up?

90
1 Q No. You haven't been sitting here at this table
2 writing a timeline throughout this trial?
3 A Writing a timeline?
4 Q Yes. Writing a timeline.
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q You haven't been sitting here taking notes on
7 what the witnesses are saying writing a timeline?
8 A I take notes, but not those kinds of notes.
9 Q No timeline?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q Now, again, when Darrell shows up in this car,
12 you're saying you feel hungover; is that right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Very, very sick; is that right?
15 A Sick. Not very, very sick. Sick.
16 Q Okay. Well, describe -- everybody feels
17 hangovers a different way. Describe it.
18 A Upset in the stomach that you need to eat. You
19 know if after drinking you need to eat something because
20 you feel upset stomach and you need to eat something.
21 Q Okay. So you felt like you needed to eat
22 something?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q All right. Did you feel like you were going to
25 throw up?
91
1 A I was trying not to because it makes it worse.
2 Q All right. And so because of this, you feel the
3 need to recline the seat back; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And, I mean, you reclined it all the way back,
6 right?
7 A As far as it would go.
8 Q Well, you reclined it back far enough that
9 Andrew Xeron doesn't see you, right?
10 MS. PIPE: Objection, speculation.
11 THE COURT: If you could rephrase the question,
12 please.
13 BY MS. BACH:
14 Q You reclined it far enough back that your head
15 is not visible to the outside?
16 A I don't know how far I reclined it.
17 Q So you don't how far you reclined it back?
18 A I don't know what the visibility and all that.
19 I just know I reclined it.
20 Q Tell me how far. A little bit? A lot?
21 A As far as the seat can go.
22 Q Well, that's not helping me.
23 Is that a little bit or a lot?
24 A I don't know how to actually answer that
25 question.
92
1 Q Do you feel like you're almost laying down? Do
2 you feel like you're sitting up more?
3 A I was still -- I was still a little up. Not
4 laying all the way down.
5 Q Okay. Do we know angles? Right here is 0, here
6 is 90.
7 A I would say maybe a 45-degree angle.
8 Q So about 45?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 MS. BACH: Okay. And I guess for the record,
11 I'm trying to hold my hand at a 45-degree angle. I'm not
12 sure if that's right, but I think that's right, if I
13 remember geometry.
14 THE COURT: Okay. I'll note that for the
15 record.
16 BY MS. BACH:
17 Q And first thing you want when you get in the car
18 is you want some food, right?
19 A It wasn't the first conversation, but --
20 Q You wanted food. I'm asking the first thing you
21 wanted.
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q You wanted food?
24 And do you remember what time you get in the
25 car?
93
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q Don't remember what time?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q But you don't stop for food, you go directly to
5 this house on Woodland Drive?
6 A Because he told me I have something and --
7 Q I'm not asking what he told you. I'm asking
8 where you went.
9 You went directly to the house on Woodland
10 Drive?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And when you get to the house on Woodland Drive,
13 no stops on the way; is that right?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q Okay. And when you get to the house on Woodland
16 Drive, you have to park the car near the front door; is
17 that right? Not you, Darrell parks the car, according to
18 you, on the street in front of the house; is that right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And Darrell goes up, opens the door, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Not wearing gloves, just unlocks the door,
23 right?
24 A I didn't notice nothing. I just know he ran in
25 the door.
94
1 Q So he could have been wearing gloves now?
2 A He could have been, or he might not. I didn't
3 pay too much attention.
4 Q Was he wearing gloves in the Porsche?
5 A I wasn't paying attention.
6 Q You wouldn't have noticed if he had big
7 construction gloves on as he's driving?
8 A I would, yeah.
9 Q So was he wearing gloves when he's driving the
10 Porsche?
11 A I can't remember if I actually paid that much
12 attention.
13 Q So you don't remember if he's wearing gloves?
14 A In the Porsche?
15 Q Yeah.
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q No, you can't remember; or no, he wasn't?
18 A I can't remember if he was wearing gloves. I
19 didn't pay that much attention.
20 Q So you didn't pay attention to whether he was
21 wearing gloves in the Porsche?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q You go up to the house, you don't know if he's
24 wearing gloves when he gets to the house?
25 A No, ma'am.
95
1 Q But he opens the door; is that right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And you think you're going there to go do 30
4 minutes worth of work; is that right?
5 A Yes, ma'am. Some painting, drywall, yes, ma'am.
6 Q Some painting and drywall, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And again, you've actually never done drywall
9 before, that's what you told us an hour ago, I think,
10 right?
11 A I used to work for PCM.
12 Q I thought you said you didn't do drywall, that's
13 why you didn't have the tools.
14 A No. I didn't have the tools because it's not my
15 line of trade.
16 Q So you do know how to do drywall?
17 A Yes, ma'am. I learned from PCM, yes, ma'am.
18 Q Okay. So you get there, you have to do 30
19 minutes worth of work, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q That's it?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And then hopefully, at that point, you can get
24 your food, get your minivan, and go home, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
96
1 Q Okay. And so you get in there and you decide to
2 go have a seat in sort of this nice receiving room, right?
3 A Yes. Darrell told me sit right here.
4 Q That's what you do when you go to work in
5 somebody's house?
6 A That's what he told me to do.
7 Q I'm asking, that's what you did?
8 A Yes, ma'am. That's what I did.
9 Q And when you go there, I mean, do you just sit
10 down?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. You're not wearing gloves, right?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. And so you sit down, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q I mean, you're not like a surgeon, you don't
17 have your hands all like this or anything, right?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q You're not worried about leaving fingerprints
20 anywhere, right?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q You just sit down, casual as can be, and you're
23 waiting?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 MS. BACH: All right. And can we take a look at

97
1 1175, please. It's already admitted, yes?
2 MR. BRUCKMANN: Yes, it is.
3 BY MS. BACH:
4 Q And this is the room that you just go sit down
5 in, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am, that same chair.
7 Q Yeah, that same chair.
8 And you've got 30 minutes of work to do, and you
9 just pull out your phone and start trying to get Wi-Fi; is
10 that right?
11 A No, ma'am. I didn't pull out my phone.
12 Q Oh, right, because you didn't have your phone at
13 that point; is that right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Okay. So we don't have our phone, instead we're
16 just kind of sitting here and in comes Darrell with the
17 pizza, right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q The room looks pretty much like this, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q All right. And in comes Darrell with this pizza
22 box.
23 Now, he definitely has gloves on, you think,
24 right?
25 A After he opened the box is when I noticed the

98
1 gloves.
2 Q So you don't even know that he had the gloves on
3 when he brought the box in?
4 A When he -- can you repeat the question?
5 Q So you don't actually see him wearing gloves
6 when he brings the box in?
7 A When he brings the box?
8 Q Just explain to me how he brings the box in.
9 A Okay. He went up the steps. I know he went up
10 the steps because I hear the footprint. And he came back
11 down with the box, and he opened with the gloves. And I
12 said, why are you holding the pizza you're about to give
13 me to eat with these dirty gloves.
14 (Reporter interrupted for clarification.)
15 THE WITNESS: Holding the pizza with these dirty
16 gloves.
17 And he's like, I'm just ready to work. He said
18 I have the box, I'm not grabbing the pizza.
19 BY MS. BACH:
20 Q So he brings down a pizza box, sits it on the
21 table, opens it up for you?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q With these dirty gloves on?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And then what do you do?

99
1 A I took a slice.
2 Q Okay. You're not wearing gloves, right?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. You take the pizza, and then what do you
5 do?
6 A I started to eat it.
7 Q And where is Darrell?
8 A Darrell is standing right there.
9 Q He just stood there and watched you eat it?
10 A Well, I don't know if he was watching me eat it.
11 That'd be kind of creepy.
12 Q Right. It would be kind of creepy.
13 So what does he do?
14 A He's just standing there talking to me while I
15 was eating pizza.
16 Q Does he stand there the whole time?
18 Q Okay. What happens when you're done eating the
19 pizza?
20 A After I finish eating the pizza, I reach for my
21 phone and ask them if they have any Wi-Fi. And that's
22 when I realized I didn't have no phone in my pocket.
23 Q Because now that you're done eating the pizza
24 and you have 30 minutes of work to do, the first thing you
25 do is try to use your phone?

100
1 A Because Vanessa didn't hear from me the day
2 before.
3 Q Again, you're not trying to do the work, you're
4 trying to get on the phone?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q All right. And so what do you do with the
7 crust?
8 A I put it back in the box.
9 Q And then what do you do?
10 A I put the crust back in the box. I reach for my
11 phone and realized I didn't have my phone.
12 Q Then what do you do?
13 A Then I told Darrell, I think I leave my phone in
14 the Porsche, is the Porsche open, and he said yes.
15 Q Then what do you do?
16 A He let me out of the house to go and get the
17 phone.
18 Q And where is the pizza when you leave?
19 A I left it on the table.
20 Q Okay. Left it there all open and everything?
21 A Yes, ma'am, it was open. I didn't close it back
22 up.
23 Q You didn't close the box? You didn't touch the
24 box?
25 A No, ma'am.
101
1 Q Never once touched the box?
2 A I just grabbed the pizza. Maybe I touched the
3 inside of the box.
4 Q So maybe you did touch the box?
5 A Maybe I grabbed the inside of the box when I
6 grabbed the pizza off.
7 Q Okay. And so you go out to the Porsche, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q You're not wearing gloves, right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q You go into the Porsche, you find your phone,
12 right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And you also find your backpack, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And again, this is the backpack you brought to
17 work?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And again, the only thing in that backpack is
20 some water?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q That's it?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q Nothing else?
25 A No, ma'am.
102
1 Q Okay. And while you're in the house, don't hear
2 any noise upstairs?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Don't hear any chairs making any noises, right?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q No scratching on the floor?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q Don't hear any dogs either; do you?
9 A I hear the dogs, ma'am.
10 Q Oh, you did hear dogs?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. When did you hear the dogs?
13 A I just heard barking.
14 Q You heard barking.
15 When did you hear the barking?
16 A When I was sitting at the table.
17 Q Oh, when you were sitting at the table.
18 The whole time or just part of the time?
19 A The whole time.
20 Q The whole time.
21 Was it loud? Was it quiet?
22 A The dog barks?
23 Q Yeah, the dog barks.
24 A I don't know if it's loud or -- but there was
25 dogs barking. I would say loud.

103
1 Q Did they sound close or far away?
2 A They sounded like they was behind where I was
3 sitting.
4 Q They sounded like behind where you were sitting?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And I guess you just failed to mention that on
7 direct?
9 THE COURT: I'll ask that you ask --
10 BY MS. BACH:
11 Q I'm just asking, did you mention that yesterday?
12 A I can't recall. I don't think I was even asked
13 the question.
14 Q Well, you were asked yesterday if you heard any
15 noises and you said no; do you remember that?
17 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
18 THE WITNESS: The question was if I heard any
19 noise. And okay, yes, I didn't mention that.
20 BY MS. BACH:
21 Q Okay. Now, when Darrell is, I guess, bringing
22 you this pizza box with these gloves on and opening it and
23 closing it for you, you don't notice anything wrong with
24 the pizza box?
25 A Darrell just opened the box. I don't know if he

104
1 closed it.
2 Q Okay. When he opens the box, you don't notice
3 if there's anything wrong with the box, right?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q You certainly would have noticed if there was
6 blood on it, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q I mean, that's something that would kind of
9 catch your attention?
10 A Yes, ma'am, because I wouldn't eat the pizza.
11 Q Right. That's kind of gross, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q You would have figured that out. That would
14 have raised a red flag for you, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And just so we all understand, this whole thing
17 about Darrell opening the doors and closing them for you,
18 I mean, is he just that kind of a gentleman? Does he
19 always do that for you?
20 A No.
21 Q Strike you as strange, maybe?
22 A No. But if he goes to the door first, he lets
23 me in. That's not strange to me.
24 Q Well, but Darrell didn't go out to the Porsche
25 with you.
105
1 A No.
2 Q So isn't it a little strange that he's opening
3 and shutting these doors for you all the time?
4 A He was right by the door. He told me I'm going
5 to close this door up, just meet me back in the garage.
6 Q So he tells you I'm going to close this door, go
7 through the garage?
8 A No. He said when you're coming back, meet me in
9 the garage.
10 Q Tells you to meet him in the garage?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. So you go out to the Porsche at that
13 point, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you get your phone, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. This is the second time now in 24 hours
18 that you've left your phone in a car, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am. I usually take it out so I don't
20 crack the screen.
21 Q I understand that you usually take it out.
22 Do you usually leave it in the car?
23 A No.
24 Q Okay. So this is the second time in 24 hours
25 that you've left the phone in the car?

106
1 A I wouldn't say I left it in the car.
2 Q By mistake.
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. And that's not normal for you, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Yes, it is normal or ...
7 A It is normal, because sometimes I leave my phone
8 in my van and have to go back to get it.
9 Q My question is, do you normally leave your phone
10 all the time?
11 A Occasionally.
12 Q Is it normal for you, twice in 24 hours, to
13 forget that your phone's in your car?
14 A I don't quite understand what you're trying
15 to --
16 Q Don't worry about it.
17 Now, when you come in, you come in and put your
18 backpack on, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q This is a black string backpack, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q It's not like a thick-strapped backpack, it's
23 got like a string on it, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And you go directly to the garage door, right?

107
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And you're walking with a purpose; is that
3 right?
4 A To go in the garage, yes, ma'am.
5 Q Yeah. Okay. And before you testified here
6 today, you knew, through discovery and through the warrant
7 in this case, that the Government had your DNA on that
8 pizza crust; didn't you?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And you knew that we had your DNA on that pizza
11 crust because you actually ate that pizza, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am. That's why I was arrested.
13 Q And you knew that there had to be some kind of
14 an explanation for why your DNA was on that pizza crust?
15 A No, ma'am. I'm just telling you the truth.
16 Q I'm asking you, did you realize you had to give
17 some kind of an explanation for why your DNA was on that
18 pizza crust?
19 A I realize that I have to tell the truth.
20 Q And you also knew you had the witness statements
21 of the two gentlemen from the Australian ambassador's
22 house; is that right?
23 A When they came and testified, yes, ma'am.
24 Q You're telling us again that you did not know
25 what they said prior to their testimony?

108
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q You had never heard about what they were going
3 to say prior to their testimony?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q Never heard about it at any hearings?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q Never heard about it in any way whatsoever?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q All right. So when they testified, you heard
10 that they described someone, sounded an awful lot like
11 you, walking into that garage; is that right?
12 A Yes, ma'am, because I was presented it, grand
13 jury.
14 Q You saw their grand jury, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And you saw that they testified that when they
17 walked in -- when that man walked into the grand jury, he
18 has on a black backpack, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And he's walking in alone, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And you knew that they were unable to say from
23 their vantage point whether or not he had a garage door
24 opener in his hand, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am. They say all of that.

109
1 Q Yes.
2 THE COURT: Ms. Bach, we're going to need to
3 take our morning break soon, so would now be a good time?
4 MS. BACH: That's fine, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to
6 take a 20-minute morning recess at this time. So if you
7 can reconvene in the jury room, let's say at 11:40,
8 please. A little bit more than 20 minutes. Thank you.
9 11:40.
10 (Jury not present at 11:19 a.m.)
11 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Wint. If you
12 can return to the witness stand at 11:40.
13 MS. PIPE: There's one request. I don't know if
14 you want to take a break. It's minimal. Oh, I need
15 Mr. Wint.
16 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry. Can we hold just
17 Mr. Wint for a moment.
18 MS. PIPE: I understand the Government has a
19 right to cross on his being here and seeing all the
20 evidence, but I think we're also entitled to an
21 instruction that he has a constitutional right to be
22 present and to have discovery. I'm trying to find the
23 case.
24 MS. BACH: That's fine. I'm happy to ask that.
25 I don't care.
110
1 MS. PIPE: No. I think we're entitled to an
2 instruction from the Court, because while the Government
3 is perfectly entitled to question on that, the jury also
4 is entitled to know there's nothing inappropriate or wrong
5 with him being here.
6 MS. BACH: That's fine.
7 THE COURT: Sure. Whatever language you want to
8 propose.
9 MS. BACH: That's fine. I don't know that we
10 need to do it right this second.
11 MS. PIPE: I think we do. And I didn't want to
12 interrupt, but I do think that it is appropriate, given
13 the extensive questioning about it and it's going to keep
14 going. But I do think that the jury shouldn't be left
15 with the impression that while -- and I'll craft something
16 and show it to you.
17 The Government's allowed to question about it,
18 but also Mr. Wint has a constitutional right to be present
19 and to hear the evidence.
20 MS. BACH: I guess I would ask for where the
21 case law is that says that we need to interrupt the cross
22 with it.
23 THE COURT: I'm not suggesting that we interrupt
24 the cross. I'm suggesting that before Mr. Wint leave the
25 witness stand, whether it's at the conclusion of the

111
1 cross, before redirect or before he leaves the witness
2 stand, that I provide the instruction.
3 MS. BACH: I have no objection to it being done
4 before he leaves the witness stand.
5 MS. PIPE: I'll check the case law, but I do
6 think that similar to when a witness is impeached with a
7 conviction, we are entitled to an instruction right then
8 and there. And again, I need to find the case again, but
9 I feel it is the same idea.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MS. PIPE: The jury should --
12 THE COURT: I'm happy to consider -- just take
13 some time over the break. But it's your understanding
14 there isn't a particular jury instruction, that this
15 originates from case law?
16 MS. PIPE: This is case law.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MS. PIPE: The case law says the Government's
19 allowed to do it, but I thought part of that was we would
20 also get the instruction.
21 THE COURT: That would seem reasonable.
22 MS. PIPE: I'll find it, and then we'll talk.
23 THE COURT: Okay. That sounds good.
24 MS. PIPE: Great.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Bruckmann, can I talk

112
1 with you for just a second?
2 THE REPORTER: Is this on the record?
3 THE COURT: It can be.
5 THE COURT: I am going to lose it with the
6 representatives from your office who are sitting in the
7 first row whispering and talking amongst themselves
8 throughout the questioning. It's very disrespectful of
9 Ms. Bach, it's very disrespectful of the proceedings.
10 If they want to remain in the front row, they're
11 going to need to cut it out.
12 MR. BRUCKMANN: Okay.
13 THE COURT: I don't want to humiliate them in
14 open court, but I've really had it, okay?
15 MR. BRUCKMANN: Got it. Okay.
16 (A brief recess was taken.)
17 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Re-calling United States
18 versus Daron Wint, 15 CF1 7047.
19 THE COURT: Okay. I'll note that all counsel
20 and Mr. Wint are again before the Court.
21 Ms. Pipe, do you need a few more minutes?
22 MS. PIPE: I guess what I can say -- I'm trying
23 to come up with the language, and I'll say the case is
24 Teoume-Lessane and it's 931 -- it's T-E-O-U-M-E -
25 L-E-S-S-A-N-E. And the cite is 931 A.2d 478. It's

113
1 Footnote 14. It is the case that says that the Government
2 is allowed to cross-examine on this, but in Footnote 14 it
3 says: "Upon request, the trial judge may instruct the
4 jury that the defendant has a constitutional right to be
5 present throughout his or her trial."
6 I don't see anything in this case about when
7 that instruction has to occur, and I don't know if there's
8 other case law on it. It's a 2007 opinion. This is the
9 case I was thinking of, and I don't know if there's
10 anything that -- I guess I would say just similar to the
11 prior conviction instruction and a lot of other
12 instructions, and just in line with those cases of when a
13 jury hears something --
14 THE COURT: Folks, if you're going to remain in
15 the courtroom, we are in session, you need to stop
16 speaking or I will ask you to leave.
17 Sorry.
18 MS. PIPE: Just in line with those cases that
19 when something happens in a courtroom, the judge should
20 take immediate action to correct the impressions in front
21 of the jury.
22 And so what I'm trying to draft is an
23 instruction that basically says, you know, the Government
24 has asked Mr. Wint about his knowledge of the evidence and
25 presence in the courtroom throughout this trial. The

114
1 Government is permitted to ask these questions; however,
2 Mr. Wint has a constitutional right to be present
3 throughout his trial and be aware of the evidence against
4 him, and there is nothing inappropriate about him being
5 present in the courtroom or having knowledge of the
6 evidence.
7 MS. BACH: And I guess what I would just point
8 out is I think that language is probably fine, I just want
9 to look at it, if I could.
10 Again, I have no problems if the Court reads
11 that at the end of his testimony. I just don't think that
12 needs to be done now. And what I would just point out
13 about that case -- and we actually provided it to the
14 defense, I have another copy -- is that this case
15 specifically talks about it in the context of summation.
16 So clearly this is being done, I think, in the context of
17 closing instructions.
18 So I do think that it is appropriate, and I
19 don't have a problem if we instruct them at the end of his
20 testimony as opposed to waiting to closing instructions.
21 THE COURT: Right. I think it should -- the
22 instruction should be given either while he's on the
23 witness stand or immediately after he leaves the witness
24 stand. The language strikes me as appropriate. I would
25 just ask that you give the Government a chance to weigh

115
1 in.
2 I have the case up now, and I just was looking
3 at the case that's cited in the footnote, which actually
4 appears -- is a Supreme Court decision. And so I'll take
5 a look at that as well. But, you know, if you want the
6 instruction before you redirect, I'm happy to do that now.
7 I don't think it should interrupt his cross.
8 MS. PIPE: I hear the Court.
9 My first request is that it happen now. I mean,
10 I did not want to interrupt the cross, but I think we are
11 at a break right now, so I think it is a natural pausing
12 moment. So to give that instruction when the jury comes
13 in I don't think is prejudicial to the Government in any
14 kind of way, it is a natural pause. As opposed to
15 stopping the cross to suggest there was something
16 inappropriate, instead of just the Court giving further
17 instruction.
18 Failing that, I would ask that it happen, I
19 guess immediately after cross is done.
20 THE COURT: Okay. What's the Government's
21 position?
22 MS. BACH: Your Honor, I don't think it's
23 appropriate to interrupt the cross. I think that it's
24 fine to do it at the end of his testimony. If the Court
25 wants to do it before redirect, sobeit, but there's no

116
1 reason to interrupt the cross.
2 THE COURT: Okay. I will give the instruction
3 then after cross has concluded before redirect.
4 MS. PIPE: Yes, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Can you just show that language to
6 Ms. --
7 MS. PIPE: Actually, I only have the first
8 sentence written out. The rest was --
9 THE COURT: Wow. You just did that all off the
10 top of your head. That's pretty impressive.
11 Okay. Why don't you take a minute before you
12 lose it and write it down, and we'll all be very quiet
13 while you're doing it. All of us.
14 MS. PIPE: Well, I think if we're doing it at
15 the end of cross, my guess is -- I don't think that --
16 MS. BACH: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Oh, fine.
18 MS. PIPE: I'll do it --
19 THE COURT: You'll do it in all that free time
20 you're going to have over lunch.
21 MS. PIPE: Yes.
22 THE COURT: All right. So then are we ready to
23 check on the jury?
24 MS. PIPE: Yes.
25 (A discussion was held off the record.)

117
1 (Jury present at 11:44 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Okay. Good morning again, ladies
3 and gentlemen. We're ready to resume with Mr. Wint's
4 testimony.
5 And Mr. Wint, I'll just remind you that you do
6 remain under oath.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
8 BY MS. BACH:
9 Q Now, Mr. Wint, when you go into the garage at
10 3201 Woodland, you actually go into the garage by
11 yourself; is that right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And when you go into the garage -- when you go
14 into the garage, what time is it?
15 A It had to be around 11, 11:30. I mean, between
16 like 11:45, 12:00.
17 Q So you think it's between 11:45 and 12:00?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And tell me what happens when you get into the
20 garage.
21 A I get into the garage, and first I lose access
22 to Wi-Fi.
23 Q So the first thing you try to do when you get
24 into the garage is try to access the Wi-Fi?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
118
1 Q Okay. Is Darrell in the garage?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Okay. And so you try to access Wi-Fi.
4 Then what happens?
5 A And then the Wi-Fi pop up, but I couldn't access
6 it.
7 Q So the Wi-Fi pops up, but you can't access it?
8 A It was locked.
9 Q It was locked?
10 A You need a password.
11 Q So you walk into the garage. Again, you don't
12 try to start working, you try to access the Wi-Fi?
13 A Yeah. So I can call Vanessa.
14 Q Okay. And Darrell is not working at the time,
15 right?
16 A No. He's --
17 Q What's Darrell doing?
18 A He's just standing there.
19 Q He's just standing there.
20 What's he doing when you're trying to access the
21 Wi-Fi?
22 A He's not doing nothing. He just told me just
23 hurry up.
24 Q Okay. So he's standing there, you try to access
25 Wi-Fi, you can't, and then what happens?

119
1 A I put the phone in my pocket.
2 Q Okay. And then what happens?
3 A And then he just hands me a green construction
4 vest.
5 Q And you just put it on?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And he hands you a hard hat?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you just put it on?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q No idea why at that point?
12 A No. But I asked him.
13 Q Okay. So you put them on, and then you asked
14 him, why am I putting these on?
15 A Yeah. Why do I need it just to do some paint
16 and drywall in the house.
17 Q So he hands you these things, and you just put
18 them on?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And it's at that point that you said he tells
21 you -- well, we're less -- we'll be less conspicuous
22 unloading the house if you're wearing these things, right?
23 A Yes. Not those terms, but yes.
24 Q The point is, you're not going to stand out as
25 much if you're wearing a construction vest, right?

120
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q Won't stand out as much if you're wearing a hard
3 hat, right?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q No, you won't stand out as much?
6 A I guess so. That's why he handed it to me.
7 Q That's what he's saying to you, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Because it will look like you're working on the
10 house, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And when he said to you about unloading the
13 house, you knew what he meant, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you don't want any part of that, that's your
16 testimony?
17 A No, ma'am.
18 Q And you're upset, right?
19 A Because I'm here to do some honest work, not to
20 steal from the house.
21 Q Right. You're upset?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q I mean, your brother's just totally lied to you,
24 right?
25 A Well, yes, ma'am.

121
1 Q Yeah. He told you this was honest work, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And he's lied to you, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And he got you into something that you weren't
6 expecting, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am. I'm not stealing.
8 Q Right. Because that's not what you were up
9 there to do, right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q And you took off that hard hat, and you threw it
12 on the ground, right?
13 A Yes, ma'am. I was upset.
14 Q Because you were angry, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And you stormed out of that garage, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Yeah. How did you get out?
19 A He opened the door.
20 Q Oh, he opened the door back up for you?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q As you're storming out?
23 A I don't -- I couldn't open the garage door. He
24 locked it.
25 Q So he opens up the big garage door for you?

122
1 A No. I was walking up there, the garage door
2 opened, and I kind of went -- I duck under and went in.
3 Q I'm asking how you go out.
4 A Out the garage door.
5 Q Okay. So Darrell opens it for you, right?
6 A Physically, no.
7 Q I'm asking. How does the garage door -- which
8 door do you go out?
9 A I go out the right side garage door.
10 Q The big automatic door?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And Darrell opens that?
13 A He didn't physically open it because he wasn't
14 over there. The garage door went up, and I went out.
15 Q And you go out the garage door, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And you don't say anything else to him, right?
18 A No, ma'am. I was upset.
19 Q You were mad at him, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And you're so upset that you still leave your
22 construction -- the construction vest on, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am. I didn't notice I still have that
24 on.
25 Q I'm sorry?
123
1 A I didn't notice I still have that on.
2 Q Right. Because you were so upset and angry,
3 right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q So you weren't in there very long; is that
6 right?
7 A I just wanted to leave.
8 Q I'm asking you, you weren't in there in that
9 garage very long, right?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay. And you were done at this point with your
12 brother, Darrell?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And you decide, I'm just going home now, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q I've got my $5 in my pocket, I'm getting on a
17 bus?
18 A Yes, ma'am. Because I had been out all night.
19 Q Because you had been out all night, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And which bus stop do you walk to?
22 A I just walked to a bus stop. I didn't know if
23 there was any bus stop. I just figured if I keep walking
24 and see a bus stop, once I get to a bus, I can get home.
25 Q Okay. Because you know buses all over the city,

124
1 eventually you'll find one that will take you home?
2 A Once I get to a train station, I can find my way
3 home.
4 Q Okay. You're familiar with the bus routes in
5 D.C.?
6 A No. I just know once I catch the Metrobus, it's
7 going to lead to a Metro station. Once I got to a Metro
8 station, I can find my way anywhere from a Metro station.
9 Q So where do you walk to the bus stop?
10 A I didn't see no bus stop. I just started
11 walking.
12 Q Where do you walk to?
13 A When I got out of the garage, I went and left.
14 There was a light right there. I walk on the side of the
15 street.
16 Q Okay. So when you walk out of the garage, you
17 make a left; is that what you're saying?
18 A Yes, ma'am. By the light. I mean, I left out
19 the garage, yes, ma'am.
20 Q You get to a light, right?
21 A And then I make a right.
22 Q And you make a right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q How far do you get?
25 A I got really far down until all the way by the

125
1 school, I think, was on the left-hand side.
2 Q So you get all the way down to where there's a
3 school on the left-hand side?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And it's at that point that you see who?
6 A So at that time the Porsche pulled up, and it
7 was Darrell.
8 Q All right. How long do you think you had been
9 walking before Darrell showed up?
10 A Maybe about five to ten minutes.
11 Q So you're walking for about five or ten minutes?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And I guess when you're walking down that street
14 for five or ten minutes, you don't pass any bus stops?
15 A No, ma'am. I didn't see any in the street
16 nowhere.
17 Q None?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. And when Darrell pulls up, you guys
20 argue?
21 A When he pulls up, he said get in. I said no.
22 He said, I'm taking you to your van. And I get in.
23 Q So even though he's just asked you to rob -- or
24 burglarize a house, you get in the car?
25 A Yes, ma'am. I wanted to get to my van.

126
1 Q And let's just talk just for a moment about this
2 car.
3 You said it's -- in your mind, it's like a BMW,
4 right?
5 A I mean, it's just as expensive, yes, ma'am.
6 Q Is a Lamborghini like a BMW?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q Lamborghini is really high end, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q This Porsche is like a Lamborghini, right?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 Q You don't think that you've actually searched
13 and compared the two on your phone?
14 A I searched racing and seeing which one is the
15 fastest of all the cars: Lamborghini, Porsches, Corvette,
16 Vipers.
17 Q You've compared the two, right?
18 A I don't know if I --
19 Q Tell me this: You knew the Porsche wasn't
20 Darrell's?
21 A Yes, ma'am, I knew it wasn't.
22 Q He just asked you to steal everything from these
23 people's home, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And you decided to just get in the car with him

127
1 because he said he'll take you to this van, right?
2 A Because I don't think nobody will be driving
3 around in a stolen car.
4 Q Really? You didn't think he might drive around
5 in a stolen car?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q And according to you, he lied to you about the
8 fact that it was a legitimate job, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q According to you, he lied to you about why he
11 needed your van, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q According to you, he lied to you when he said he
14 was coming back to get you on May 13th, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And according to you, he lied to you when he
17 said he needed to take you there for 30 more minutes of
18 work; is that right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q But you thought that he would be totally
21 aboveboard about this car that he was driving that he
22 can't afford?
23 A Yes, ma'am. I just wanted to get to my van.
24 Q And just to be clear, all this time on May 14th,
25 you haven't seen your brother, Steffon?

128
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q Haven't talked to your brother, Steffon?
3 A No.
4 Q And you didn't see him at all on May 13th?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q Haven't talked to him?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q So you get in the car with Darrell, seat still
9 laid back, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q Okay. And where do you go?
12 A He was taking me to my van, so that's why I get
13 in the car.
14 Q I didn't ask why you got in the car, I asked
15 where you went.
16 A We went to Maryland. We went to a shopping
17 center.
18 Q So you went to a shopping center.
19 So you know enough about D.C. to figure out if
20 you're going to Maryland or sort of further into D.C.;
21 fair enough?
22 A I know when I got to Maryland. It's just -- it
23 looks different. It's more people, have bigger yard.
24 Q So you knew when you got to Maryland, you don't
25 know which direction New York Avenue -- if you're on

129
1 New York Avenue, you don't know whether you're going
2 outbound or inbound?
3 A Yes, I know if you're going -- yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. So at some point when you're on New York
5 Avenue, you realize you're going outbound, right?
6 A Right. But I wasn't paying attention to where
7 we was driving.
8 Q So you're not paying any attention to where
9 you're going?
10 A No, ma'am. I was pretty upset with Darrell.
11 Q So you're upset with Darrell, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q Still feeling poorly; is that right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Got the seat laid back, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q But you drive out to this shopping center, you
18 said near where your sister used to live, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am, because he said he needed --
20 Q Again, I'm not really worried about what he's
21 saying. I'm asking what you did, okay?
22 A That's where we went, yes, ma'am.
23 Q All right. And while you're driving out there,
24 any stops along the way?
25 A No. No, ma'am.

130
1 Q All right. So you drive directly there?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And you heard Mr. Xeron testify; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And you heard him testify about that very, very
6 expensive blue Porsche convertible, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And you heard him testify about seeing somebody
9 in that Porsche convertible with a construction vest,
10 right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. And you don't have any doubt that that's
13 the Porsche convertible that you were in, right?
14 A That's the same Porsche in the video.
15 Q I'm sorry?
16 A That's the same Porsche in the picture, yes,
17 ma'am.
18 Q Yes. That's the Porsche that you're in, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q But you're in the passenger's seat laid back,
21 according to you?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q So he just doesn't see you?
25 THE WITNESS: I don't know if he seen me or not.

131
1 THE COURT: If you could rephrase your question,
2 please.
3 MS. BACH: Sure.
4 BY MS. BACH:
5 Q His testimony was that he just didn't see you?
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know if he seen me or not,
8 ma'am.
10 BY MS. BACH:
11 Q I'm asking you, your testimony was he just
12 didn't see somebody in the passenger's seat?
13 A I don't even recall if he said that or if he
14 didn't say that.
15 Q You don't remember him testifying yesterday that
16 he didn't see somebody in the passenger's seat?
17 A I just heard he said the driver.
18 Q Right. He just said he only saw the driver?
22 BY MS. BACH:
23 Q Now, again in this case, in the warrant, there
24 was all of this talk about DNA and a pizza crust, but
25 there was no mention way back then about DNA on a

132
1 construction vest, right?
2 A When the news break?
3 Q Right. When the news broke. There was no
4 mention --
5 A I was arrested for DNA on the pizza.
6 Q Right. But at some point when you got your
7 discovery in this case, you learned that actually there
8 was a construction vest that had DNA on it, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am. They gave me a list of everything
10 that had DNA on it.
11 Q Right. We gave you a list of all of that; is
12 that right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And just to be completely clear, I mean, you, as
15 the defendant, you have an absolute right to all of that
16 information. I mean, you understand that, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Okay. And you -- I mean, obviously you're
19 allowed to be in here during the trial, nobody's saying
20 you're not. You understand that, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Okay. And so you learned that that construction
23 vest had not only your DNA on it, but Mr. Savopoulos's DNA
24 on it, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
133
1 Q Okay. And you knew that it was found in that
2 Porsche that was burned up in that parking lot by La
3 Fontaine Bleue; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And you knew that Mr. Xeron had provided
6 information about a driver from a Porsche wearing a
7 construction vest?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you knew that he had testified and provided
10 information that he only saw one person in that car?
11 A I don't know about how many people he saw in the
12 car.
13 Q You don't remember learning that information?
14 A I can't remember that part, no.
15 Q And you knew that in addition to that, there was
16 evidence about a hair being found in that hard hat?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And you knew that that was based on a different
19 kind of DNA testing, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q So it was a little bit different. There were
22 three people that that hair probably could have come from,
23 right, that was your understanding?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Right. It's either you, your brother Steffon,

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1 or your mom, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And I think we can rule out your mom, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. And it's a hard hat, right? So any kid
6 knows that the hard hat goes on your head, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And your brother, Steffon, has pretty much had a
9 bald head his entire life; is that right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q He hasn't had a bald -- or very, very, very
12 short hair his entire adult life?
13 A No, ma'am, because I cut his hair.
14 Q So you're telling me that he's had long hair?
15 A Not as long hair as my hair, but he had his hair
16 on the top of his head. Like this long.
17 Q So you're giving us about a inch.
18 A Not an inch.
19 Q Why don't you tell me in May of 2015 how he wore
20 his hair.
22 Q You can't remember that?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q You know, through the information that has been
25 provided to you, that your mother gave us photographs of

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1 Steffon's hair in July of 2015; don't you?
3 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: Can I have the parties approach for
5 a moment?
7 MS. PIPE: The date of the photographs has never
8 been established. Steffon testified the photograph was
9 provided, my understanding, by his mother.
10 MS. BACH: I'm asking what he knows.
11 MS. PIPE: I understand that she's asking what
12 he knows, but I do think that it is -- we can't
13 misstate --
14 MS. BACH: We're not misstating --
15 MS. PIPE: -- what the evidence is.
16 MS. BACH: -- but he's testifying in part based
17 on things that I've said to counsel, that I am sure they
18 have shared with him, as they absolutely should. But he
19 is testifying based on representations that I have made
20 based on things that I have known.
21 Like, for instance, where was Darrell? Can we
22 corroborate his whereabouts on May 13th. Yeah, we can.
23 We can corroborate it based on the phone records, and lo
24 and behold, where is he on May 13th? Exactly where the
25 phone records are.

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1 I'm not, in any way, implying that -- in any way
2 that counsel has crafted -- I'm not. But I'm just saying
3 that I think that the things that we say and represent are
4 still relevant to his state of mind.
5 THE COURT: So I would just ask, to the extent
6 that that's what you're getting at is then to rephrase it
7 in a way, it was your understanding of the photographs
8 that your mother provided.
9 MS. BACH: Sure. And I can even say from us, I
10 mean, if that's better.
11 MS. PIPE: I think that's fine. I just -- and I
12 think -- I mean, that's my understanding of what's come
13 out in court is that Steffon has said it's from July. My
14 concern is, we don't know that that's actually when it's
15 from. I mean, you can say according to Steffon it was
16 from July.
17 THE COURT: Right. What's relevant is what is
18 his understanding.
19 MS. BACH: Right. But for the record, we've
20 sent him the files that came from the phone that are dated
21 in July.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MS. PIPE: Okay.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
25 (Open court.)
137
1 BY MS. BACH:
2 Q And it's your understanding, Mr. Wint, that
3 there are actually photographs that have been provided by
4 your mother from July of 2015 showing your brother,
5 Steffon, with very short hair?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. And same thing with Darrell, very short
8 hair, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am. I saw the pictures.
10 Q I'm sorry?
11 A I saw the pictures.
12 Q And so based on -- well, after having that
13 information, you are now testifying that, yes, you did put
14 that hard hat on your head; is that right?
15 A I'm just saying the truth that I did.
16 Q I'm sorry?
17 A I'm telling you the truth what I did. I put the
18 hat on.
19 Q The hair that's in the hard hat is your hair; is
20 that right?
21 A Yes, I would assume so.
22 Q Okay. And it's your hair because that hard hat
23 was on your head; is that right?
24 A I would assume so.
25 Q Well, I'm not asking you to assume.

138
1 Did you put the hard hat on your head?
2 A Yes, ma'am, but I don't know whose hair it is.
3 Q Well --
4 A I don't know if I left the hair --
5 Q Did you put the hat on your head?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And you put the hard hat on your head at 3201
8 Woodland Drive?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q All right. Now, you get to the area, according
11 to you, with Darrell out in Maryland, and you said it was
12 the area of a shopping center.
13 What's in that shopping center?
14 A La Fontaine Bleue, laundromat.
15 Q Okay. And you get some kind of payment from him
16 at that point.
17 What is the payment?
18 A It was $300 and two iPhones.
19 Q And he tells you the iPhones came from where?
20 A He told me he found it.
21 Q He found them?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And again, this is within, what, an hour of him
24 asking you to burglarize the house?
25 A Yeah. I don't know, maybe. I wasn't paying

139
1 attention to the time, but shortly after.
2 Q And it doesn't occur to you that maybe he took
3 them from the house?
4 A No, ma'am, because I told him I didn't want
5 nothing to do with that house and nothing from that house.
6 So --
7 Q Okay. So you think that they were just found
8 somewhere?
9 THE COURT: Ms. Bach, can we let him finish his
10 answer?
11 MS. BACH: I'm sorry. I thought you were.
12 THE COURT: Again, Mr. Wint, if you could just
13 remember to keep your voice up, okay?
15 BY MS. BACH:
16 Q Please, finish.
17 A I told him I didn't want anything to do with
18 that house or nothing from that house. So with that
19 conversation, I didn't believe he would still give me
20 something from there.
21 Q So you thought he just found them?
22 A I believed that.
23 Q And just to be clear, you actually told Vanessa
24 that you just found them?
25 A No.
140
1 Q You never told Vanessa Hayles that you were the
2 one who just found them?
3 A No, ma'am. I told Vanessa my brother found it
4 from somebody who walked away and left it in the park.
5 Q You didn't tell her this entire story about how
6 the two iPhones were sitting next to somebody on a bench
7 and they got up and just happened to leave them there and
8 you found them?
9 A No, ma'am. I told her what Darrell told me.
10 That's what Darrell told me.
11 Q I'm asking you if you told her that you were the
12 one who found them?
13 A I can't recall that.
14 Q So you can't recall if you told her that?
15 A I know I told her Darrell found it.
16 Q I'm asking you if you ever told her that you're
17 the one who found them on the park bench after two people
18 got up and left?
19 A I can't recall, no.
20 Q So you don't know if you told her that?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q And if you had told her that, that's not true?
23 A It wouldn't be true, no, ma'am.
24 Q And I guess sitting here today, you're telling
25 us that you don't now realize where those phones came

141
1 from?
2 A No, ma'am. Because the police has never showed
3 up at my house or New York.
4 Q So you don't know where they came from because
5 the police never came to your house in New York?
6 A Yes, ma'am. Because Vanessa told me the phone
7 could be tracked, and if the phone could be tracked, the
8 police could track it to me.
9 Q So you haven't heard the testimony here, and you
10 don't understand where those phones came from?
11 A I heard the testimony. I've seen -- I heard the
12 testimony.
13 Q All right. Okay. And just so that we know and
14 understand, you said that you were familiar with the area
15 in that parking lot because you said your sister used to
16 live over there -- or your sister lives over there, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am. My sister lives in the back, and my
18 brother lives across the street.
19 Q Your brother lives across the street?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And your brother is your brother Steffon, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Okay. Well, there's another reason you're
24 familiar with that area, right?
25 A Not to my knowledge right now, no.

142
1 Q Mr. Wint, who else used to live there?
2 A Oh, me. Yes.
3 Q Yeah. You.
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. And who lived with your sister for a
6 couple of years?
7 A Me.
8 Q Yeah. How long?
9 A I can't quite remember. Two -- two years.
10 Q Two years?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And who lived with your brother, Steffon?
13 A Across the street?
14 Q Yeah.
15 A Me.
16 Q For at least, what, six months?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And when you lived with your sister there for
19 two years, you had a key; didn't you?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And when you lived there with your sister for
22 two years, you didn't have a car that whole time; did you?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q So you had to rely on public transportation a
25 lot, right?
143
1 A Yes, ma'am. I would catch the Metro.
2 Q You would catch the Metro, walk some, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q It's a pretty, I guess easily accessible place
5 to walk, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And when you're walking around there, you don't
8 necessarily have to follow all of the roads and streets,
9 right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q You get to learn the shortcuts; don't you?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And, in fact, you walked repeatedly on that
14 shortcut from the part from the La Fontaine Bleue down to
15 where your apartment was with Samantha?
16 A Yes, ma'am. It was the shortest route to get to
17 that shopping center.
18 MS. BACH: Can we take a look, do we have the
19 exhibit for Samantha? What number is this?
20 MR. BRUCKMANN: 599 or 600.
21 MS. BACH: Sorry. I'm blind anymore. Let's
22 take a look right there.
23 BY MS. BACH:
24 Q If we look at 599, I guess, just the area that
25 Mr. Bruckmann has zoomed in on, I mean that shows -- the

144
1 parking lot of La Fontaine Bleue has that little blue, I
2 guess pinpoint in it, and your apartment is right over to
3 the left of that; is that right, where you lived with
4 Samantha?
5 A Yes, ma'am --
6 Q Okay.
7 A -- to the left.
8 Q I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.
9 A Yes, ma'am, to the left.
10 Q Okay. And then Steffon, when you lived with
11 him, it was across Annapolis Road, it would be --
12 MS. BACH: Can we zoom out?
13 BY MS. BACH:
14 Q It's actually across Annapolis Road to the
15 right; is that right?
16 A I can't quite see from here. It was across the
17 street.
18 Q But it's sort of off the screen?
19 A Yeah. It's across the street, yes, ma'am.
20 Q Okay.
21 A Yeah, the street.
22 Q Here we go. This is Government's Number 843
23 that Mr. Bruckmann just put up.
24 MS. BACH: Can we zoom in just a little bit on
25 that general area.

145
1 BY MS. BACH:
2 Q Is this better in terms of --
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q -- it shows where it is -- where you lived with
5 Steffon, sort of across the street from that parking lot?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 MS. BACH: Okay. Now, can we look at that cut.
8 All right. So again, what is this?
9 MR. BRUCKMANN: 600.
10 BY MS. BACH:
11 Q 600, all right. This little cut we're talking
12 about is this little sidewalk right off of that parking
13 lot that goes almost directly down to the apartment
14 building where you used to live; is that right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And you lived there for two years, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And you walked on that pathway a number of
19 times; is that right?
20 A Yes, ma'am. It's the closest route to that
21 shopping center.
22 Q Absolutely. I mean, and you're like most
23 people, if I have a choice, I'm not going to walk the
24 longest route, I'm going to walk the shortest route,
25 right?
146
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q All right. And in this green grassy tree area,
3 there's a lot of, let's call it sketchy stuff, maybe, that
4 goes on; is that fair to say?
5 A I never really pay attention to what goes on
6 there.
7 Q You didn't ever see anybody there doing some
8 illegal things sometimes?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q You didn't see all the trash in there?
11 A There's a lot of trash, there's a lot of trees,
12 but I didn't --
13 Q You didn't see the stuff that made it look like
14 people might be living in there?
15 A No, ma'am, because that walkway wasn't always
16 like that. It was a lot of bushes.
17 Q I'm not talking right around the walkway.
18 MS. BACH: Can we zoom out?
19 THE WITNESS: No, you're talking about in the
20 tree area.
21 BY MS. BACH:
22 Q Sort of the tree area, kind of if you're looking
23 at the top of this picture. Not right along the walkway.
24 That tree area toward the top of the picture,
25 you don't remember seeing -- I guess evidence that a

147
1 number of people tried to live in that area?
2 A You're talking about the top right hand?
3 Q Yeah.
4 A No, ma'am. I had no reason to walk over that
5 way.
6 Q So you never saw that?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q You never saw anybody just kind of hanging out
9 in that area?
10 A People hangs out on the steps coming out the
11 walkway and in the church parking lot.
12 Q Okay. So people hang out in that area?
13 A Yeah. People always hang out there.
14 Q All right. Drinking?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Sometimes using drugs?
17 A I would assume so, yes.
18 Q Maybe even some prostitution every once in a
19 while?
20 A I ain't see all that.
21 Q Okay. But there's often some folks who are
22 hanging out in that area?
23 A There's always people hanging out.
24 Q Now, you lived there with Samantha at that
25 apartment building right behind La Fontaine Bleue until,

148
1 what, the end of 2014?
2 A Yes, ma'am. Not that apartment building.
3 Q Right. The one further down.
4 MS. BACH: We can zoom out.
5 BY MS. BACH:
6 Q It's actually the one -- the third one that
7 Mr. Bruckmann just put in yellow; is that right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. And you lived there until the end of
10 2014; is that right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And you ended up moving out of that apartment --
13 well, actually, you got kicked out of that apartment; is
14 that right?
15 A I moved out of that apartment.
16 Q Well, you moved out of that apartment after
17 Samantha told you you couldn't stay in that apartment
18 anymore.
19 A We got in an argument. She never told me I
20 couldn't stay.
21 Q She didn't tell you you had to leave?
22 A We got in an argument over the van, and I just
23 left. I called my brother, and he picked me up and left.
24 Q You called your brother, or Godfrey called your
25 brother?
149
1 A Godfrey called my brother, and I also called my
2 mother and my brother.
3 Q Okay. Was it your understanding that you were
4 still able to live at Samantha's house?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q So you thought you could go back and live at
7 Samantha's?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Just out of curiosity, after you moved out of
10 Samantha's house, when was the next time you talked to
11 her?
12 A We go to the gym together. Me, her and Godfrey.
13 Q Back in the end of 2014 after you moved out,
14 when was the next time you talked to Samantha?
15 A Two weeks later we end up at the gym together.
16 Q I'm not asking you if you ended up. I'm asking
17 when was the next time you talked to her?
18 A About a week after we went to the gym.
19 Q Okay. You talked to her and everything was
20 fine?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And it was your belief that you could just go
23 back to Samantha's house?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And when Steffon was called, you went and you

150
1 moved in with Steffon; is that right?
2 A Yes, ma'am. They told me it's best I should
3 come there.
4 Q They told you it was best to come there; is that
5 right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And you were there with Steffon and your mom,
8 Cheryl, and your little sister, Stacy; is that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And again, when you eventually got -- well, were
11 you kicked out of Steffon's house, or were you allowed
12 back there, too?
13 A I was kicked out.
14 Q When you were kicked out of Steffon's house, you
15 didn't go back to Samantha's?
16 A No.
17 Q No. You went back to your father's house?
18 A Yeah. I went over and talked to him at first,
19 tell him what was my plan.
20 Q So it was your plan at that point to go to your
21 dad's house?
22 A No. My plan, I was going to stay in my van and
23 probably go to New York.
24 Q So your plan was to go and stay in your van and
25 then go to New York?

151
1 A Yes, ma'am. I was going to show up at my father
2 and take a -- I mean stay in the van, and if I didn't find
3 a job in about the next two weeks, I was going to go to
4 New York.
5 Q So if you could have gone back to Samantha's,
6 why didn't you go back to Samantha's?
7 A I didn't want to.
8 Q So it was better to sleep in the van than go to
9 Samantha's house?
10 A At that point, I just wanted to, yes, ma'am.
11 Q And you were welcome at Samantha's house, that's
12 what you're telling the jury?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And you're telling the jury that you just would
15 have rather slept in your van than gone there?
16 A The truth is, I was tired of bouncing around to
17 different places.
18 Q And you thought the minivan was more stable?
19 A Because it was mine. I couldn't get kicked out
20 of that one.
21 Q Because it was yours, and that was important to
22 you, right?
23 A I couldn't be kicked out of it, yes, ma'am.
24 Q Okay. It was important to you that this was
25 sort of the one thing that was yours?

152
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And your plan at that point was that if you
3 couldn't find work, you were just going to go to New York?
4 A Yes, and park.
5 Q And what?
6 A And park it down here in Maryland -- I mean go
7 to New York, yes, ma'am.
8 Q So you were planning to go to New York at that
9 point?
10 A If I didn't find a job soon.
11 Q If you didn't find a job?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q So the whole thing about not wanting to go to
14 New York because you wanted to raise a family in Maryland
15 that you testified to yesterday, that wasn't really
16 accurate?
17 A That is the truth.
18 Q So did you want to go to New York, or did you
19 want to stay here and raise a family?
20 A I wouldn't have had a choice because it was
21 getting cold, and I wouldn't have any gas to keep the van
22 running while I was sleeping in the van.
23 Q It was getting cold? It was May.
24 A I mean, it was going to get to that point. So I
25 couldn't stay unless I have a place to actually stay.

153
1 Q No. Yesterday you testified, Mr. Wint, that you
2 didn't want to go to New York in May because you wanted to
3 stay here and raise a family.
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Now you're telling the jury that you wanted to
6 go to New York?
7 A That was my only option after --
8 Q That's not what I'm asking.
9 You're telling the jury now that you wanted to
10 go to New York?
11 A I was going to go to New York. I didn't want to
12 go to New York, but that was going to be my option. I was
13 not going to sleep in my van throughout the rest of the
14 year and winter and all that. I was going to have to go
15 to New York.
16 Q So that would have been your only option you're
17 saying now at this point?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Because even though it's only May, by December,
20 it would have gotten cold?
21 A And if I didn't find a job, I would have to go,
22 yes, ma'am.
23 Q But you could have gone to Samantha's house
24 because she would have welcomed you in?
25 A Yes, ma'am, but I didn't want to go back there.

154
1 I was just -- where I was just at, I just moved out of
2 there.
3 Q Well, you had been at Samantha's house a year
4 earlier.
5 A Yes, ma'am, but I didn't want to go back to the
6 same problem over and over, staying with people. I wanted
7 to just be at peace.
8 Q And you thought that staying in the minivan was
9 going to bring you peace?
10 A Because I can't be kicked out of that. That was
11 mine. I didn't have to hear anybody's mouth or nothing
12 like that.
13 Q And you didn't want to hear anybody's mouth?
14 A Not that I didn't want to hear anybody's mouth,
15 I just didn't want to go through the same thing over and
16 over of moving from one location to the next location. If
17 I stay in the van, it was just where I was going to be at
18 unless I make the decision to go to New York.
19 Q Well, you were going to be there for two weeks
20 before you went to New York?
22 Q You said you were going to be there for two
23 weeks before you went to New York?
24 A If I didn't find a job until two weeks, I was
25 going to go to New York.

155
1 Q Because that's what you wanted to do?
2 A That was going to be my option then, I was going
3 to go to New York. I didn't know how long I wanted to
4 stay in the van.
5 Q Now, while you get to -- or when you get to La
6 Fontaine Bleue, that parking lot, you get there, and I
7 guess what happens after Darrell gets you to this parking
8 lot? He just -- I guess to be clear, Darrell doesn't live
9 near this parking lot, right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q He lives way over in Montgomery County, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q So he's not the one who lives there?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q So what happens when Darrell gets to this
16 parking lot with you and the Porsche?
17 A He said he got to pick somebody up at 5:00 to
18 get done what he needed to get done, he can't take me to
19 my van anymore.
20 Q Okay. And then what happens?
21 A And then he gives me the $300 for using the van
22 and two phones.
24 A And then I got pretty upset and stepped out of
25 the Porsche, and I throw the vest at him.

156
1 Q When you say "pretty upset," what do you mean by
2 that?
3 A Upset to the fact is that first he was supposed
4 to take me to my van; second, take me to a house where
5 you're stealing stuff; third, he brought me all the way to
6 Maryland and back, and I didn't get my van yet.
7 Q So what happens at that point?
8 A Darrell pulled off.
9 Q All right. Where did he go? Did you see?
10 A Leaving out the shopping center.
11 Q Okay. So you're standing there, you've thrown
12 the vest at him, where do you go?
13 A I was about to walk over to the bus stop.
14 Q Bus stop where?
15 A Across the street.
16 Q Across the street where?
17 A It's in front of the car dealership.
18 Q Okay. And what happens as you're walking over
19 there?
20 A I realize that Darrell hadn't given me the keys
21 to my van.
22 Q Had you asked him for them?
23 A No, because then he would have gave them to me.
24 Q I'm sorry?
25 A I didn't ask him for the keys because then he

157
1 would have gave them to me, and I didn't remember.
2 Q So you didn't remember to ask him for the keys
3 to the minivan?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q You asked him multiple times to take you to the
6 minivan, but you never bothered to ask for the keys?
7 A Because he -- yes, ma'am.
8 Q I'm asking, yes or no, is that what happened?
10 Q Okay. And so you realized you don't have the
11 keys, so what do you do?
12 A So the first thing I saw is a tow truck right
13 there, and I --
14 Q Okay. And what happens?
15 A And I accessed my phone, seen the directions
16 that he gave me, and I asked of the tow truck driver, how
17 much would he charge me to tow my van from this direction.
18 Q Okay. What did the tow truck driver say?
19 A He told me $100.
20 Q And when you say you accessed the directions
21 that Darrell gave you, you're talking about this reference
22 to 24 and K that's in your phone, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And that's the 24 and K that you said Darrell
25 told you that you didn't have a pen, but you put into your
158
1 phone, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And you explained to us how you put that in your
4 phone so that you could remember it?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And so he says -- you said $100?
7 A $100, yes, ma'am.
8 Q Okay. So do you agree to that amount?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q So what happens?
11 A So we left.
12 Q All right. Where do you go?
13 A Go to that direction.
14 Q Where you say "that direction," you mean into
15 D.C.?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. Where do you go after that?
18 A We towed the van back to Maryland.
19 Q No. No. No. I'm asking how you get there.
20 A We drove up New York Avenue.
21 Q Then where did you go?
22 A I don't quite remember then because I don't
23 really know D.C. that good.
24 Q Well, you heard the tow truck driver testify,
25 right?
159
1 A Yes, ma'am, but I didn't pay attention that much
2 to everything.
3 Q You didn't pay attention to what he was saying?
4 A I didn't pay too much attention to everything.
5 Q You heard him say that you gave him directions?
6 A Yes.
7 Q You heard him testify that you didn't have an
8 address, you told him how to get there?
9 A I told him the location.
10 Q No. You heard him testify that you told him how
11 to get there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. So how did you tell him to get there?
14 A Up New York Avenue, and that's all I know.
15 Q I'm sorry?
16 A All I know, we went up New York Avenue and to
17 that address.
18 Q I'm asking you, how did you tell him to get
19 there?
20 A I can't remember telling him how to get there,
21 because I don't know D.C.
22 Q Right. Because you don't know D.C.?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q So you're telling us that you couldn't give him
25 directions on how to get there?

160
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q So what happens when you get to where the
3 minivan is?
4 A Then the location on that street, you then
5 actually like -- where he was going from, we didn't spot
6 it right away.
7 Q You didn't spot it right away?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q So then what happens?
10 A Then when we spot it, he hooked it up and towed
11 it.
12 Q So where did you spot it?
13 A I can't remember where it was actually parked.
14 Q You can't remember?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q So tell us, I guess, when you get to this place
17 and you don't see the minivan, what happens?
18 A I was pretty upset. I called, but Darrell
19 wasn't picking up.
20 Q I'm asking, well, where do you go?
21 A The tow truck driver just kept saying -- I keep
22 telling the guy, he told me it's here, and he drove, drove
23 and never find it.
24 Q So you told the tow truck driver he told me it's
25 here?
161
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And you kept driving?
3 A The tow truck driver do maybe a loop or one, but
4 he drove somewhere, and we spot it.
5 Q So the tow truck driver did a loop?
6 A Yes, ma'am. I think it's a loop. I can't quite
7 remember. But I know when I saw it, I said that's got to
8 be my van right there. And I was like, oh, this is the
9 van.
10 Q So the tow truck driver is driving around until
11 you find it?
12 A Yes, ma'am. I wouldn't say around, like -- but
13 we spotted it.
14 Q But you didn't spot it where it was supposed to
15 be?
16 A No. Not --
17 Q And you didn't give him the directions on the
18 van?
19 A Not on K and the other streets.
20 Q Right. Because the van wasn't at 24 and K.
21 A I don't quite remember.
22 Q No, it wasn't at 24 and K, it was at 2400
23 Pennsylvania Avenue; isn't that right?
24 A No, ma'am. I can't remember where the van was
25 parked at.
162
1 Q You can't remember? Well, it was provided --
2 A I just know the information that I was given and
3 that's where we went, in that direction. Where we found
4 the van, I didn't pay attention to that.
5 Q Well, I'm asking you this: You were provided
6 with discovery in this case, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q You were provided with GPS coordinates in this
9 case relating to the tow truck driver's phone, right?
10 A No, ma'am. I didn't think I see it.
11 Q You were provided with the phone records that
12 show where his phone was pinging?
13 A I assume when we talked about the phone, yes. I
14 assume you're talking about the phone, yes, ma'am.
15 Q All right. You were provided with a picture in
16 front of 2400 Pennsylvania Avenue, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q You were provided with the information that the
19 tow truck driver provided in his statement; is that right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q You were provided with the information taken
22 from your phone that said 24 and K; is that right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q Okay. And you were provided with the
25 information that you heard on the stand where the tow

163
1 truck driver said that you directed him exactly where to
2 go?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Now, after your -- or after the tow truck hooks
5 up to the minivan, you heard the tow truck driver testify
6 that the minivan was open, unlocked?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Right. And so the tow truck gets towed right
9 back out to Maryland, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And you knew there was evidence of all of that,
12 right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q You knew that there were traffic cameras that
15 had photographed those two cars going all the way out to
16 Maryland?
17 A Yes, ma'am, I saw it.
18 Q Okay. And you knew that there were phone
19 records that showed somebody using the tow truck driver's
20 phone to call Darrell, right?
21 A Yes, ma'am. That was me.
22 Q Right. And you know that there were phone
23 records that even showed someone mistyping their name and
24 saying, hey, it's Faron, instead of Daron, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am. Because I was trying to let him

164
1 know I was calling him from that number.
2 Q Right. You were trying to get in touch with
3 Darrell from that phone, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And that minivan gets towed all the way back out
6 to where?
7 A To the shopping center.
8 Q Where in the shopping center?
9 A Where in the shopping center?
10 Q Yep.
11 A It was in the La Fontaine Bleue parking lot, but
12 it was a little up. If you showed me the picture, I can
13 show you.
14 Q Sure. We can absolutely do that.
15 MS. BACH: Do we have that as a hard copy?
16 MR. BRUCKMANN: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: It was like where the white car is
18 at right there with the little blue stuff. It was a
19 little in front of that.
20 BY MS. BACH:
21 Q When you're talking about where the white car
22 is, are you talking about the white car that has the pin
23 next to it that says defense shopping center, or are you
24 talking about a different one?
25 A Yes, ma'am. The one with the pin next to it.

165
1 Like two or three parking spaces in front of that.
2 Q I'll tell you what, Mr. Wint, I'm going to mark
3 this as 600A. I'm going to write your name at the bottom
4 of it, and I'm going to give you a red pen, and I'm just
5 going to ask you to circle for me where it is he parked
6 your car.
7 A (Complies.)
8 Q Thank you.
9 A You're welcome.
10 Q And just so we don't have to switch over to the
11 Elmo, you're showing us --
12 MS. BACH: Can you just sort of zoom in right
13 there.
14 BY MS. BACH:
15 Q That's approximately where you marked on the
16 diagram?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q About -- we'll have the diagram in evidence.
19 Is that right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. And so when he gets back to that
22 location, tell us what happens.
23 A He unhooked my van and drove off.
24 Q And what happens after that?
25 A He drove off.
166
1 Q He just drove off?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Now, had you been using his phone in the car?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. So he unhooks your van, and he just
6 drives off?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Doesn't stay very long, he's just gone?
9 A He's gone.
10 Q Drives off within, what, a couple minutes?
11 A I don't think it's that long. He just drove
12 off. He just unhooked the car, and it was unhooked, get
13 in his vehicle, and drove off.
14 Q And at that point, what did you do?
15 A Then I pull out my phone, and I saw -- like, the
16 way the Wi-Fi work, it have like some little bars, and it
17 goes up, and the higher the bars go, that's how good the
18 Wi-Fi come in. And there was, like, a bar showing me the
19 Wi-Fi coming in, so I dialed Vanessa on Facebook.
20 Q Okay. Did you talk to her?
21 A No. The phone actually didn't -- when I hit the
22 dial and stuff, it wouldn't open. That means the Wi-Fi
23 wasn't coming in or it was just up there.
24 Q So there actually wasn't a connection?
25 A No, ma'am.
167
1 Q So there's no record of it?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Well, you have the records, right? You've seen
4 them in discovery?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q There's no record of that phone call; is that
7 right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. So you parked the car, the minivan gets
10 parked there, you try to call Vanessa; is that right?
11 A Yes, ma'am. It won't go through.
12 Q It won't go through.
13 So then what do you do?
14 A I start walking around the shopping center, see
15 if I see Darrell, and also see if I can get some Wi-Fi.
16 Q And again, why do you think that -- why do you
17 think Darrell's going to be here?
18 A Because he's supposed to come back and pick
19 somebody up, he said.
20 Q So he said he was actually going to pick them up
21 right here?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And this is the same Darrell who's lied to you
24 what, now, six, seven times at this point?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
168
1 Q All right. And Darrell knows where your father,
2 Dennis, lives, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. Because that's his dad, too?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And Darrell easily could have just met you at
7 your dad's house, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q No reason why that van couldn't have been towed
10 to your dad's house?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 Q All right. But instead of towing the van to
13 your dad's house, you decide to have it towed to the very
14 place where the Porsche starts burning within an hour; is
15 that right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And so while you're walking around trying to get
18 a signal, what happens?
19 A I didn't find any signal.
20 Q So how long do you think you're walking around?
21 A Ten minutes. Five, ten minutes at least. I'm
22 just assuming five, ten minutes. I'm not sure.
23 Q Well, you saw Ms. Atkinson testify. Do you
24 remember actually seeing her that day?
25 A I wasn't paying attention to who was in the

169
1 parking lot.
2 Q Okay. So you don't know one way or another if
3 you saw her?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q All right. So you're walking around for five to
6 ten minutes, and then what happens?
7 A And then I get tired because I couldn't get no
8 Wi-Fi or didn't spot Darrell, so I'm getting more and more
9 upset. So I went and sit in the van.
10 Q So what do you do when you get in the van?
11 A I smoke cigarettes. I didn't have any
12 cigarettes, so I started looking in the van to see if I
13 left maybe one or a half, and I didn't find any. I opened
14 the glove compartment, and the keys was there.
15 Q How long do you think you're looking in the van
16 for cigarettes?
17 A Not that long.
18 Q I mean --
19 A It's only about one, two, three places.
20 Q Okay. So you think five minutes? Less than
21 five minutes?
22 A Less than five minutes.
23 Q All right. And when you find the keys, what do
24 you do?
25 A After I find the keys, I drove off.

170
1 Q And you said you were angry at this point,
2 right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Because you had just blown $100 having your
5 minivan towed?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And the only reason you had your minivan towed
8 you said is because you didn't have your keys, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am. Unless I drove it.
11 A Unless if I have the keys, I would just drive
12 it, save the $100.
13 Q Well, there's other reasons why you don't want
14 to be driving an unregistered minivan, right?
15 A I mean, the fact it's unregistered.
16 Q Well, right. What happens when you're driving
17 an unregistered minivan sometimes?
18 A It's unregistered.
19 Q Well, yeah. You get pulled over, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q You get stopped by the police, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And when the police stop you, they don't just
24 stop you, they look in your car, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
171
1 Q And if you've got any stuff that you've maybe
2 just taken out of a house, they might see it, right?
3 A I don't quite understand that question.
4 Q Well, if you've got stuff that you shouldn't
5 have in your minivan, the police might see it if they stop
6 it; don't you think?
7 A Well, the police won't know what I should or
8 should not have.
9 Q You don't think they would maybe recognize
10 bloody clothes?
11 A Yes, they would recognize bloody clothes.
12 Q Okay. So that would be the kind of stuff you
13 don't want the police to see?
14 A I mean, if you commit a crime, I wouldn't think
15 so, no.
16 Q Right.
17 Now, again, you knew in this case that the tow
18 truck driver had been found by the police, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And you knew that the tow truck driver had been
21 interviewed by the police, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And you knew that all of his phone records had
24 been identified, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
172
1 Q And you knew -- I guess in addition to calling
2 Darrell, you also called a guy named Steve, right?
3 A I think that was a misdial.
4 Q You think it was a misdial?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q You don't know anybody named Steve?
7 A Nobody I talk to. Maybe I stored that number
8 for a job or something.
9 Q Well, you've got a Steve in your phone, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am, and I can't remember who that person
11 is.
12 Q And that person, Steve, is called on the tow
13 truck driver's phone, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q So you dialed the number, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am, but I still don't know who Steve is.
17 I can't remember.
18 Q But you called him?
19 A I think it was a misdial.
20 Q So you just misdialed all of the digits?
21 A The whole number, yes, ma'am.
22 Q So you just misdialed all ten numbers?
23 A Yes, ma'am. I could only assume I went to find
24 somebody else and dialed his number instead.
25 Q Somebody else's name is close to Steve; is that

173
1 right?
2 A Maybe, yes, ma'am.
3 Q And this whole thing about the Wi-Fi, you knew
4 prior to this trial about the information that
5 Laurie Atkinson had provided about seeing you in that
6 parking lot; is that right?
7 A Yes, ma'am. I watched her testify.
8 Q No, I'm saying before this.
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q You didn't have her information prior to this
11 trial?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You weren't provided with any of that?
14 A No, ma'am. I was provided with every time the
15 witness take the stand, then I would ask my lawyer for the
16 transcript.
17 Q Well, we don't have to get into what you talked
18 to your lawyer about.
19 I'm asking you, you're telling the jury that you
20 were not provided with those statements prior?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q But you saw her testify here in the courtroom?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And you don't remember any hearings about the
25 testimony that certain witnesses would be providing about

174
1 where they may have seen you?
2 A No, ma'am, I can't remember that.
3 Q Well, I mean, I guess in case the jury doesn't
4 know, like, we didn't just start at trial, right? I mean,
5 like, there were hearings before we got to trial, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And sometimes we talked about people, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am, but I couldn't recall the Government
9 disclosing any names of who was testifying.
10 Q You don't remember -- even if you didn't hear
11 about the name, you don't remember hearing about the woman
12 in the La Fontaine Bleue parking lot who identified you?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Do you pay attention at these hearings?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Now, when you get to your father's house that
17 night, there's a big argument about the fact that you had
18 been missing for 36 hours, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And at that point, you don't say, oh, my gosh
21 you're never going to believe it, Darrell just left me?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q He put you out, right?
25 Q I said your dad put you out?

175
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q Your dad doesn't tell you you have to get out?
3 A He told me he think I should best go to
4 New York.
5 Q Okay. He tells you to get out of the house. He
6 tells you you have to leave.
7 A Right. I have a certain time, yes, ma'am.
8 Q Right. Not that second, but he tells you you're
9 going to have to leave.
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And at this point, you don't want to go to
12 New York, right?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. But you don't have anywhere else in the
15 D.C./Maryland area where you can stay?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q You don't go in and plead your case to your dad,
18 right?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q You're just kind of stuck with the situation?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And then at some point that night, you see on
23 the news that this house you were just at earlier in the
24 day has caught on fire, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
176
1 Q And you learn that four people were killed in
2 that house?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q And you're upset?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Because what in the world has your brother
7 gotten you into?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q You're angry; aren't you?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q You're sad?
12 A Now?
13 Q No, then.
14 A Yes, ma'am. I mean --
15 Q I mean, this is upsetting, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q There are four dead people, right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q One of them's a kid, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q You cannot believe that your brother did this to
22 you, right?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q So you go to Walmart with him?
25 A Because I wanted to know what happened.

177
1 Q You went to Walmart with him?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Not once, I guess, but twice, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And you're just hanging out with him in Walmart?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. Now, what you're looking at, that same
8 night that you're going to Walmart with the brother who
9 took you to the house where the four people get killed and
10 it's set on fire, is stuff about deleting iPhones and the
11 memory in the iPhones; is that right?
12 A Are you asking me what I did that night?
13 Q I'm asking if you looked that up on the phone.
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Okay. But again, doesn't occur to you that
16 maybe these might be stolen phones?
17 A No, ma'am, because you already had that
18 conversation.
19 Q Right. Because your brother, who took you to
20 the house where the four people were killed and where it
21 got set on fire, would never lie to you about stealing a
22 phone, that's what you're telling us?
23 A He knew that I wanted nothing to do with nothing
24 stolen. We had that conversation.
25 Q And you're also looking at how to not only reset

178
1 the phones, but how to get rid of the iCloud, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Because you don't want to just reset the phones
4 so you can use it, you want to make sure that anything
5 that's out there stored on the Cloud is gone forever,
6 right?
7 A Because in order to --
8 Q I'm asking if that's what you're trying to do.
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q You're not trying to get rid of what is on the
11 iCloud?
12 A Because in order to get in the phone, it stops
13 you from doing all that. It pops up, it say that, and
14 then I Google that to find out.
15 Q Did you look up how to factory reset iPhone 6
16 and get rid of iCloud?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And the iCloud is where they store all of this
19 stuff in the ether so that we can't touch it?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And you wanted to get rid of whatever was out
22 there, too, right?
23 A I know that's how you get in the phone. I
24 didn't try to get rid of nothing.
25 Q You didn't try to get rid of anything?

179
1 A I was just trying to reset the phone, how you
2 get into the phones.
3 Q Because it would look bad if you were trying to
4 get rid of stuff, right?
5 A I didn't care what was going to look bad, ma'am.
6 I was just trying to get in the phone. The phone was
7 locked, and when your phone is locked, in order to get
8 into the phone, you have to factory reset it.
9 Q Well, I'm asking you, Government's 185, that
10 black LG phone, you're the one who's doing these searches,
11 right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And so you're the one that's looking into
14 getting rid of the iCloud, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am, because that's how you have to
16 unlock the phone.
17 Q You're the one who's looking into getting rid of
18 the iCloud, correct?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q Now, you're saying you don't want to get rid of
21 anything.
22 You sent a picture of those two phones to
23 Vanessa; is that right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And you sent those to her through Facebook,

180
1 right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q You're the one who deleted those messages to
4 Vanessa?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Okay. So you are getting rid of things, right?
7 A I started to get scared after I was -- I didn't
8 know what --
9 Q So you are getting rid of things?
10 A Yes, ma'am. I deleted it.
11 Q Now, when you and Darrell go to Walmart that
12 night, you guys are coordinating going to Walmart because,
13 I guess you called him or he calls you on Dennis's
14 landline?
15 A Yes, ma'am. I called him first.
16 Q Okay. And you call him on that (240) 601-1903
17 number; is that right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And that's the same number you're always calling
20 him on, right?
21 A Yeah. That's the number.
22 Q That's his number, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And eventually, you contact him on that number,
25 right?
181
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And he comes to Dennis's house, and you guys go
3 to Walmart, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And now, he decides to give you, according to
6 you, $6,000 for that minivan?
7 A Because I tell him I didn't want my van anymore.
8 Q You tell him you don't want your van anymore?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q So he gives you 6 grand?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q You know that van wasn't worth $6,000?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q So he's giving you that 6 grand for something
15 else; wasn't he?
16 A I was not going to give him back the extras.
18 A I was not going to give him back and tell him my
19 van isn't worth this much money.
20 Q I understand that.
21 But I'm saying, you knew he was giving you that
22 money for something else?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q You didn't? You just thought he was being
25 generous?
182
1 A He was giving me money because I don't want my
2 van anymore.
3 Q Right.
4 A And I need to buy a new car.
5 Q Well, the van was worth less than 1,000?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. And he gave you 6?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And did you ask him where the 6 grand came from?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q You just took it?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And then you go to Walmart?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And while you're in the Walmart, you said that
16 Darrell, he bought gloves, and he bought a T-shirt, and
17 then you said he bought some jeans; do you remember that
18 testimony?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q He didn't buy jeans.
21 What did he buy?
22 A I could swear that's what he bought, jeans,
23 T-shirt.
24 Q Really? There's a difference between jeans and
25 painter's pants; aren't there?

183
1 A I know it was pants.
2 Q You made a big distinction just a couple hours
3 ago, well, when you paint, you've got to wear the white
4 pants.
5 There's a difference between painter's pants and
6 jeans; isn't there, Mr. Wint?
7 A I mean, there's a difference, yes, ma'am.
8 Q So you would know the difference between whether
9 or not he bought painter's pants or jeans, right?
10 A I would know the difference when I see them,
11 yes, ma'am.
12 Q Okay. He bought painter's pants; didn't he?
13 A I can't remember. I just know it was jeans.
14 MS. BACH: What number?
15 MR. BRUCKMANN: 857.
16 MS. BACH: Let's look at 857.
17 BY MS. BACH:
18 Q All right. Let's look at the receipt. Okay.
19 Purchase: Painter's pants; do you see that?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And you know that he bought the painter's pants
22 because he was going to painter's training the next
23 morning at PCM, right?
24 A I don't know, ma'am.

184
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q And you guys left Walmart, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q But then you came back to Walmart, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And you did this whole thing on direct about you
7 came back to get a backpack, and who's going to pay for
8 the backpack, because he just gave you 6 grand, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q But to be clear, the backpack's for you, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q The backpack is a new black string backpack,
13 right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Because when you come back to Walmart this
16 second time, you realize you need a black string backpack,
17 right?
18 A Yes, ma'am. I realized that I didn't get my bag
19 when I leave the house.
20 Q Yes. You realized it when you went back to
21 Walmart the second time, right?
22 A No. I realized it maybe after we leave Walmart
23 as we was talking, I said, you didn't give me my --
24 where's my black backpack, I left it in that house.
25 Q Well, let's just ask it this way.

185
1 When you go back to the Walmart the second time,
2 that's when you buy the black string backpack?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q And prior to that, you hadn't noticed that it
5 was missing, that's your testimony?
6 A I noticed it was missing.
7 Q You noticed -- and this is the backpack that has
8 the two bottles of water in it but nothing else?
9 A Yes, ma'am. I noticed it was missing since I
10 got to the house.
11 Q So you noticed it was missing, but you hadn't
12 asked for it yet?
13 A After seeing the stuff on the news, that didn't
14 come to mind at that time. I had too many questions for
15 him.
16 Q But it was important enough for you to drive
17 back to the Walmart to get the backpack?
18 A Because I started to get upset when he didn't
19 tell me anything. Then I told him I needed my backpack,
20 where is it at.
21 Q So you're so upset with him, you decide to go
22 back to the Walmart with him?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q Okay. So I'm really mad at you, Darrell, let's
25 go back to Walmart?
186
1 A So he can buy me a backpack back, yes, ma'am.
2 Q But he doesn't buy it?
3 A He doesn't actually pay for it, no, ma'am.
4 Q Right. So ultimately you're mad at him, you go
5 back to Walmart, and then you buy the backpack?
6 A Because I know I needed it.
7 Q Okay. But that's what happens, that's your
8 testimony?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q All right. And so there's about, what, an hour
11 in between those two purchases; is that right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q Why don't you tell us where you went in between.
14 A We stopped in the neighborhood.
15 Q What neighborhood?
16 A Somewhere around -- I don't know if it's
17 Hyattsville.
18 Q You think it's Hyattsville?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q But you don't know where it is?
21 A Not quite, no, ma'am. I've never been there
22 before.
23 Q You've never been there before?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q Well, tell me about the neighborhood. Is it

187
1 residential, or is it commercial?
2 A Residential.
3 Q So, like, houses and stuff?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Are they houses or apartment buildings?
6 A Where I was, I just saw houses.
7 Q And so what did you do when you get to this area
8 where there's these houses?
9 A He went in -- he parked, went in the house and
10 talked to somebody.
11 Q Okay. Did you go in with him?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q All right. How do you know he talked to
14 somebody?
15 A He told me just to wait in the car, he's going
16 to meet somebody.
17 Q So then he comes back out, that's your
18 testimony?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q All right. And then where do you go after that?
21 A That's when we actually went back to Walmart.
22 Q So you drive to Hyattsville.
23 How long are you sitting in the car waiting?
24 A It's been a minute. Maybe -- I don't know, it's
25 been a minute. Maybe 30, 35 minutes.

188
1 Q So you just sit in the car for 30 or 35 minutes?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q What are you doing while you're sitting there in
4 the car?
5 A Just waiting. I had nothing to do. My phone is
6 not on.
7 Q Nothing to do?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q No Wi-Fi signal?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q Just hanging out?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q So after that, you go back to the Walmart,
14 that's your testimony?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q All right. And again, you know where 51st and
17 Frolich is, right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q I'm sorry?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And you worked there for how many years?
22 A About eight to nine years.
23 Q Eight to nine years.
24 And you worked there five days a week?
25 A Sometimes six.
189
1 Q Sometimes six?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And after work, you would hang out there quite a
4 bit with the people that you worked with?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And in addition to working there, you knew a lot
7 of the sort of convenient stores and carryouts in the
8 neighborhood; is that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am. There's only one.
10 Q There's one, okay.
11 And you've been there, I guess since you've
12 worked there; is that fair to say?
14 Q You've been to that area since you've worked
15 there; is that right?
16 A Yes, ma'am. I'm familiar with the neighborhood.
17 MS. BACH: And if we can just take a look at
18 605. Is that the overhead?
19 BY MS. BACH:
20 Q If we look at this right here, this shows that
21 area of 51st and Frolich; is that right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And do you see those school buses right there,
24 can you kind of tell where they are?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
190
1 MS. BACH: And if you would highlight for us,
2 Mr. Bruckmann, sort of that general area.
3 BY MS. BACH:
4 Q That's about where it was that you worked at
5 Metal-Fab; is that right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And that's the place where you worked for about
8 eight or nine years, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And when we're talking about 51st and Frolich --
11 MS. BACH: Can you just highlight that
12 intersection for us?
13 BY MS. BACH:
14 Q Did we just highlight 51st and Frolich?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And then -- what's the name of the other street
17 that runs parallel?
18 A What street are you talking about?
19 Q I'm talking about the street down here. Is it
20 Tuxedo?
21 A In the back?
22 THE COURT: We can't see where you're pointing.
23 MS. BACH: I'm pointing with my finger. This is
24 why he doesn't let me use the computer.
25 BY MS. BACH:
191
1 Q I'm pointing right here. Do you know if this is
2 Tuxedo?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. All right. And --
5 MS. BACH: Sorry. It's been a long morning.
6 BY MS. BACH:
7 Q And Kenilworth Avenue is sort of down at the
8 bottom?
9 A It's in front of it.
10 Q Right. So Kenilworth Avenue is kind of the big
11 street around there that you would go on to get to 51st
12 and Frolich?
13 A Yes, ma'am. It's the main road.
14 Q Now, you know in this case that one of the
15 things that you were provided with is the information that
16 Darrell provided to the Government; is that right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Okay. And when I say "the information," I mean
19 interviews, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. I'm talking about phone records relating
22 to his phone, right?
23 A Well, correction. I don't think there's a
24 statement from Darrell.
25 Q I'm asking, you didn't see the interview from

192
1 the night that you guys were all arrested -- or that you
2 were all stopped?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q You're telling -- you're telling us that you
5 don't know that Darrell gave us a statement the night that
6 you were stopped?
7 A I have no -- no, ma'am.
8 Q You have no idea?
9 A I know he -- the most I know, he was supposed to
10 be testifying. That's -- but I haven't seen no interview.
11 Q All right. When you say "testifying," you mean
12 against you?
13 A I mean coming into the court.
14 Q Against you?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Okay. And so your understanding, all right, is
17 in addition to that, Darrell actually also took the police
18 to a location on Frolich Road; is that right?
19 MS. PIPE: May we approach?
20 THE COURT: Sure. Parties may approach.
22 MS. PIPE: I understand she's going for his
23 knowledge, but I think she's backdooring Darrell's
24 statements and Darrell's activities with the police. I
25 just don't think it's appropriate to backdoor that and

193
1 suggest that there is evidence that Darrell did certain
2 things or told the police certain things by trying to get
3 that through him through his knowledge.
4 MS. BACH: We spent three hours of direct of him
5 telling us every single thing that he claims Darrell told
6 him yesterday as his -- to explain what it was he did.
7 If you want to instruct the jury that this is
8 not for the truth, sobeit. But quite frankly, I had
9 planned to attack his credibility because I think that
10 it's laughable that he doesn't know this. And I think --
11 MS. PIPE: That's what Darrell told him.
12 That's -- this is not what Darrell told him. This is what
13 Darrell told the police.
14 MS. BACH: It's what he knows, and it's why he
15 would frame Darrell.
16 MS. PIPE: I can tell you, it is my general
17 practice, and it was my practice in this case, I don't
18 share the Jencks with my clients before trial.
19 MS. BACH: It's not Jencks.
20 MS. PIPE: So he doesn't -- his statement was
21 Jencks.
22 MS. BACH: I guess the Brady? The Brady?
23 MS. PIPE: How I read it.
24 MS. BACH: The warrant?
25 MS. PIPE: I can't reveal every -- but I can

194
1 tell you --
2 MS. BACH: He's all over the jail calls talking
3 about how he knows that Darrell sold him out.
4 MS. PIPE: That doesn't mean that he knows
5 anything about what you're just talking about.
6 MS. BACH: I have a good-faith basis. And he
7 absolutely does. Everybody that we've talked to indicates
8 that's exactly what he thinks.
9 THE COURT: So I'll permit you to ask the
10 question again. If he denies knowing it, then you're
11 going to have to move on, you're stuck with the answer.
12 MS. BACH: That's fine. I mean, and then if we
13 choose to go down this path with Darrell, that's fine.
14 MS. PIPE: Okay.
15 THE COURT: Okay. And then we're going to --
16 just give me a signal, because we're going to need to
17 break for lunch pretty soon. Let's complete this.
18 MS. BACH: Do you want me to -- okay. That's
19 fine.
20 THE COURT: I think so.
21 MS. BACH: Okay. That's fine.
22 (Open court.)
23 BY MS. BACH:
24 Q Did you -- okay.
25 MS. BACH: I'm sorry. I didn't know if you were

195
1 going to say something.
2 THE COURT: No.
3 BY MS. BACH:
4 Q So I was asking you, I guess, you had testified
5 yesterday you were asked some questions about various
6 things that you were shown and about photographs that you
7 were shown and about the first time you saw a photograph
8 of a knife; do you remember those questions?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And you were talking about how you had been
11 shown that information sort of in the course of learning
12 about the evidence against you; is that right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. And your testimony here today is that you
15 were never, I guess provided any information at all about
16 the assistance that Darrell Wint had provided to law
17 enforcement with respect to 51st and Frolich?
18 A Maybe I did. I just can't --
19 Q Let me try to ask it I guess as direct as
20 possible.
21 You know that Darrell Wint took the police to a
22 location in that block and pointed out a pile of burned
23 debris in that area; is that right?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q And you know that he indicated that you were the

196
1 person who burned that debris?
2 A No, ma'am.
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q You had no idea?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q And you never saw any photographs of burned
8 debris, not from a minivan, but another pile further down
9 that block of burned debris?
10 A Yes, ma'am. I saw those photographs.
11 Q You did see those photographs?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And you saw the evidence in those photographs?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you saw the zip ties in those photographs?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q You didn't see that?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q But your testimony is not only did you not see
20 that, but you didn't know the source of that information?
21 A I saw some burned things. It looks like a
22 big -- like, two big batteries.
23 Q But you had no idea what it had to do with your
24 case?
25 A No, ma'am.
197
1 Q And you never -- you just kind of threw your
2 hands up like, oh, well, don't care?
3 A I mean, I know this is part of the case because
4 my lawyer had it. They wouldn't have nothing that's not
5 part of the case.
6 Q But you didn't know where that information was
7 coming from?
8 A I mean, it's coming from the Government.
9 Q You didn't know it was coming directly from your
10 brother?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 MS. BACH: Court's indulgence.
13 THE COURT: Could I suggest this might be a good
14 time to break for lunch, or do you want to finish this
15 area of questioning?
16 MS. BACH: I was just going to very briefly make
17 sure that we are talking about the same --
18 THE COURT: Okay. Fine.
19 MS. BACH: -- with the witness.
20 BY MS. BACH:
21 Q Mr. Wint, just to be clear, I'm showing you
22 5238.
23 A All right. Yes, ma'am. This is one of the
24 photos.
25 Q You've seen that photograph before, right?

198
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And you're telling us that you had no idea that
3 information came from your brother, Darrell?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 MS. BACH: That's fine, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Ladies and
7 gentlemen, we're going to go ahead and break for lunch at
8 this time until 2:15. So an hour and 20 minutes. So
9 please be back in the jury room in 2:15.
10 Mr. Wint, you can just remain in your seat until
11 the jury steps out. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 (Jury not present at 12:58 p.m.)
14 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Wint. You may
15 step down, and I'll see you back after lunch.
16 All right. So over the luncheon recess, you're
17 going to share that language with Ms. Bach and
18 Mr. Bruckmann in the event that we conclude cross, and
19 I'll provide the instruction after cross.
20 MS. BACH: We have to, yes.
21 MS. PIPE: Okay.
22 THE COURT: I would hope.
23 (Court recessed for lunch at 12:59 p.m.)
24 AFTERNOON SESSION 2:21 p.m.
25 THE COURT: Can I just ask while we're waiting

199
1 for Mr. Wint to come out, as far as scheduling, so what
2 does the defense expect next week to look like?
3 MS. PIPE: I think we have a full day on Monday.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MS. PIPE: I don't -- we have two people coming
6 today who should be very short, I don't know if we'll get
7 to them or not.
8 THE COURT: Right.
9 MS. PIPE: Even if we don't, I think we will
10 fill Monday, and not after that.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MS. PIPE: So that's it.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MS. PIPE: That's my best guess.
15 THE COURT: Okay. And is the Government in a
16 position now to indicate? I'm not binding you to it.
17 MS. BACH: Sure.
18 THE COURT: I frankly just want to be able -- my
19 law clerk has a working draft of the final instructions.
20 MS. BACH: Sure. Your Honor, we are going to
21 definitely take up part of it beyond that. And one of the
22 things I wanted to raise with the Court is -- and
23 actually, do you mind if we do this at the bench?
24 THE COURT: No.
25 (Defendant present.)
200
1 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Mr. Wint.
2 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
4 MS. BACH: I had actually raised this with
5 defense counsel yesterday. The parents, the grandparents,
6 the Savopoulos grandparents, the grandfather is walking a
7 granddaughter down the aisle out of the country and is
8 going to be out next week, which is fine.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MS. BACH: But would very much appreciate it if
11 there's any way we could possibly do jury instructions
12 first so that we could do closings on the 22nd. They
13 would very much like to be here for that.
14 THE COURT: Sure. So I, generally in a case
15 like this, would give the bulk of my instructions before
16 you close.
17 MS. BACH: Okay. All right. So --
18 THE COURT: And actually, I, selfishly,
19 picked -- the only day I'm going to be off is
20 October 19th, and I very much want to be in
21 Charlottesville that day. So I didn't want -- obviously I
22 can have a colleague handle the deliberations, but I don't
23 want to --
25 THE COURT: -- necessarily push that off. So I

201
1 don't have a problem if the defense doesn't have a
2 problem.
3 MS. PIPE: No. We're fine with that.
4 MS. BACH: If we could accommodate that, that
5 would be great.
6 THE COURT: I think that's more than
7 accommodable.
8 So if that means then we take Tuesday off, have
9 the Government's rebuttal case on Wednesday.
10 MS. BACH: And then instructions, I think that
11 would be fine.
12 THE COURT: Yeah. We'll just work it out. We
13 could always tell them --
14 MS. BACH: Or even Tuesday.
15 THE COURT: We've moved much more quickly, we
16 need some time to finalize the instructions.
17 So I think the only thing for you all to think
18 about is whether there's any concern about them being
19 instructed on Thursday and then recessing for closings on
20 Monday and then just following up with instructions.
21 MS. BACH: Honestly, I kind of think they just
22 read them in the back anyway.
23 THE COURT: I agree.
24 MS. PIPE: Which date is the 19th?
25 THE COURT: It's a Friday.

202
1 MS. PIPE: That's fine.
2 THE COURT: And I just thought there was no way
3 we would be sitting, but I think now it looks like if we
4 pushed, the jury might be deliberating, but it sounds like
5 for these other reasons --
6 MS. BACH: That would be great, if we could do
7 that.
8 THE COURT: Okay. That sounds like that's great
9 all around.
10 MS. PIPE: Yes. Thank you.
12 (Open court.)
13 THE COURT: Okay. So we were just resolving
14 some scheduling issues up at the bench.
15 Did the parties agree on the language of the
16 instruction?
17 MS. PIPE: Yes. And I can either read it out or
18 pass it up.
19 THE COURT: Why don't you just pass it up if the
20 Government's looked at it.
21 MR. BRUCKMANN: That's what's approved.
22 MS. PIPE: There was a section that's scribbled
23 out that was an alternative sentence. The Government does
24 not want that. So it's just the two paragraphs up top.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Excellent. So I will read

203
1 that instruction once Ms. Bach concludes her cross.
2 Thank you.
3 MS. BACH: Understood.
4 THE WITNESS: Do I need to get up when the jury
5 comes in?
6 THE COURT: It's up to you, Mr. Wint. I know
7 you were standing when you were at counsel's table. I
8 haven't been asking the witnesses to stand.
9 MS. PIPE: If the Court is okay with it, we
10 would like him to stand when they come in.
11 THE COURT: That's fine. That would be fine.
12 You can stand when they come in and stand when they come
13 out, and I'll just have you, when we take breaks, remain
14 standing while they exit out, okay?
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 (Jury present at 2:27 p.m.)
17 THE COURT: Okay. Good afternoon, ladies and
18 gentlemen. And we're ready to resume with Mr. Wint's
19 testimony.
20 And Mr. Wint, I'll again remind that you remain
21 under oath.
22 Ms. Bach, you may proceed.
23 MS. BACH: Thank you.
24 BY MS. BACH:
25 Q Mr. Wint, we had just finished off with, I

204
1 guess, sort of May 14th.
2 That next night, you -- I don't remember about
3 direct whether you were talking about this, but you had a
4 wad of cash when you went to the gym with Derrick Ayling;
5 is that right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And you didn't tell Derrick Ayling that you got
8 that from selling your van, right?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q You didn't tell him you got that money from
11 Darrell, right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You told him you got that money from the
14 lottery?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And that was a lie, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And later on that night, you actually called up
19 Mr. Ayling and asked him to help you burn your minivan; is
20 that right?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And he said no?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And when you called him up and you asked him to
25 help you burn the minivan, you told him that you needed
205
1 help because you had sideswiped a car, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And that was a lie; is that right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And you were very, very concerned about your
6 minivan getting linked to 3201 Woodland Drive; is that
7 right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q In fact, you testified that that's why you were
10 doing all of those searches about extradition treaties and
11 things like that on your phone; is that right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You didn't indicate that the extradition
14 treaties and your searches about --
15 A I started to get concerned that I might also be
16 arrested.
17 Q You had concerns that you might also be
18 arrested; is that right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And you thought you might also be arrested
21 because your van could be connected to that scene?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And so the connection that you indicated you
24 were worried about was your minivan, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
206
1 Q And so that's why you felt the need to call
2 Mr. Ayling to have him help you burn your minivan; is that
3 right?
4 A Yes, ma'am. Because it was still parked in
5 front of the house.
6 Q Because it was still parked in front of the
7 house, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you thought it could be connected to the
10 fire?
11 A Yes, ma'am, because Darrell wasn't telling me
12 anything.
13 Q And an hour later after that phone call to
14 Mr. Ayling asking him to help you burn the minivan, the
15 minivan is burned, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And --
18 A I think that's the time. I'm not sure.
19 Q You don't remember that testimony?
20 A I can't remember the time it was burned.
21 Q Well, you heard Mr. Ayling testify that he
22 talked to you at 11:16 on May 15th, right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And you heard the fire department -- or the
25 firefighter indicate that he responded to the scene of

207
1 51st and Frolich right around 12:30 on May 16th, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q So that's a little over an hour, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q But you didn't have anything to do with it?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q And 51st and Frolich, again, that's the same
8 location, it's less than a block away from where you
9 worked for eight or nine years, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And that's not where Steffon ever worked, right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q And again, not where Darrell ever worked, right?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q And one of the things that you told us was that
16 when you first saw on the news that that house had caught
17 on fire and those people had been killed, the very first
18 thing that you looked up was how to beat a lie detector
19 test; do you remember that?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And the reason you looked it up was your very
22 first thought was I'm going to have to lie to the police
23 about this?
24 A Yes, ma'am. If they questioned me about my van.

208
1 A I said yes, ma'am, because if my van was
2 involved, they would be questioning me about my van.
3 Q Your very first instinct was that you were going
4 to lie to the police?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Now, this is May 16th. You wake up, your van's
7 gone, right?
8 A Saturday?
9 Q Saturday. You wake up, the van's gone, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q You're no longer worried about it, right?
12 A No.
13 Q No, that's not right; or no, you're no longer
14 worried about it?
15 A No. It's not that I'm no longer worried about
16 it. I was kind of relieved of the fact that it wasn't
17 still parked.
18 Q Relieved it's gone, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am. It wasn't in front of the house.
20 Q Because you don't think it can be traced back to
21 you anymore, right?
22 A I didn't know what to think. I didn't know why
23 it had been removed. I mean, I know why it's been
24 removed, I just don't know who took the van. I know it
25 wasn't the police, they didn't knock on the door, it

209
1 wasn't the police, so my whole thing was it had to have
2 been Darrell.
3 Q Well, I thought that the whole reason you didn't
4 report it stolen was because you thought Darrell took it?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q So you were relieved that it was gone, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am, but I didn't know who took it.
8 Q You weren't worried about it anymore?
9 A No, ma'am, because the police --
10 Q You didn't think it could link you to a crime
11 anymore, right?
12 A I wouldn't say that. The police didn't knock on
13 my door, so ...
14 Q You didn't think that the minivan could still
15 link you to a crime?
16 A I'm confused with that question, because the van
17 just can't disappear.
18 Q So you were concerned that --
19 A If it's not there, it means it's somewhere else.
20 Q What did you think happened to the minivan when
21 you woke up on May 16th?
22 A I know the police didn't knock at the door, or
23 else Darrell took the van.
24 Q So you thought Darrell took the van?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
210
1 Q And that, in your mind, would have been a good
2 thing, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am, because it's his problem now.
4 Q It's his problem now, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And you're relieved because you think now you
7 can't be linked back to 3201 Woodland; is that right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q All right. So things are better for you at this
10 point, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q All right. That Saturday you said, right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Thursday's the 14th, Friday's the 15th,
15 Saturday's the 16th; is that right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q The 18th you're still looking up extradition
18 treaties, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q 18th you're still looking up the ten best
21 hideout cities, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am, I think.
23 Q The 19th, you're still looking up extradition
24 law, right?
25 A I can't remember that, ma'am.

211
1 Q You can't remember that. But if it's in your
2 phone, you're the one who's looking it up?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q So all of those searches in your phone, you're
5 the one who's doing the searches?
6 A On those days, yes, ma'am, because I have my
7 phone.
8 Q Now, you knew from the materials that you were
9 provided in discovery that folks had told the Government
10 about all of this money that you had?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And you knew that Derrick Ayling had told us
13 about the money that you showed him, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you knew that Vanessa Hayles had told us
16 about the money that you had in New York, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And you knew that we had the receipts from the
19 immigration attorney, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you knew that we had found the cab driver,
22 right?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And you knew you had to come up with an excuse
25 for where all that money came from?

212
1 A No, ma'am. I'm just saying the truth where the
2 money came from.
3 Q And you indicated to us that -- well, the other
4 thing I guess you knew was because you told Mr. Ayling it
5 was the lottery, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q You told Vanessa Hayles that you won the
8 lottery, too, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And, to be clear, when you told Vanessa Hayles
11 that, that was a lie?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q All right. And you knew that we had the lottery
14 records showing it was a lie?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q You didn't know that we had the records to show
17 you never won the lottery?
18 A I would assume you do, but at that time, no.
19 Q You never learned that in discovery?
20 A Yes, ma'am, I learned that in discovery.
21 Q All right. So you learned that we had the
22 records to show you never won the lottery?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And so you have now testified that the $6,000
25 came from Darrell; is that right?

213
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And you said here in court that you paid $1,100
3 to an immigration attorney because your green card
4 application was complicated?
5 A It was -- it's complicated to fill out.
6 Q Well, you had already filled it out.
7 A Not quite good. When we fill it out, we send
8 it, and the company emailed back my father and said well,
9 something about it was wrong, and they can help fill it
10 out, and we didn't go through that.
11 Q So Pam Wint, your stepmother, helped you fill
12 out your green card application?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q She's the one who sat down because you were
15 confused and helped you fill it out, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am. She didn't quite -- we didn't quite
17 finish it. So we waited until my dad came home, and he
18 helped us again, but he said he wasn't quite sure how
19 to --
20 Q So you're saying you didn't submit a green card
21 application?
22 A No, we submit the application.
23 Q And you submitted it with the money that was
24 required to submit it?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
214
1 Q And how much money was that?
2 A That was -- that application was submitted,
3 like, two weeks before the incident, and it costs $450, I
4 think.
5 Q Right. And you got that money from whom?
6 A My sister and also Vanessa.
7 Q And your sister, Onika?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q So it only costs $450?
10 A Just to renew the green card, yes, ma'am.
11 Q Okay. And so $300 came from Onika, right?
12 A That's before that time.
13 Q $300 came from Onika?
15 Q Right. You told her you needed -- or, I'm
16 sorry.
17 You told her you needed $350, right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And you told her that you already had $150?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q So you told her you needed $500 for your green
22 card application?
23 A Yes, ma'am, because that was what I was told at
24 first, it was about 500.
25 Q Okay. So you told her I need another $350?

215
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q And Onika sent it to you, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Because she was trying to help you, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And Onika's not independently wealthy or
7 anything, right?
8 A No, but she has her own business.
9 Q Okay. But she sent you the money, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And when you were talking before about the $200
12 that Onika had given you, you're talking about this money
13 that Onika had sent to you for your green card
14 application?
15 A No, ma'am. She sent me money on more than one
16 different occasion.
17 Q When did she send you this additional money?
18 A The recent money she send me was because I
19 wasn't staying with my brother anymore. Before --
20 Q How many times did she send you money while you
21 were staying with your father?
22 A I can't remember all of it.
23 Q She sent you money once while you were staying
24 with your father?
25 A I can't quite remember if it's once or twice.

216
1 Q It was -- do you not remember that it was once?
2 A Because my father's the one who go, and then
3 Godfrey also picks them up. So it's one or the other.
4 Q You don't remember telling her not to send the
5 money in your dad's name?
6 A Oh, yes, ma'am, I did. I told her to send it to
7 Derrick Ayling.
8 Q Okay. And she sent you money once while you
9 were living with your dad?
10 A No. Not -- maybe. I can't remember.
11 Q You can't remember how many times she sent it to
12 you?
13 A When I was living with my father, no, ma'am.
14 Q When you were up in New York, you knew -- you
15 heard the testimony from Vanessa Hayles about spending the
16 money at dinner, you spent that $100 bill, that's
17 accurate, correct?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And when you spent the $526 on an iPhone in
20 New York for Vanessa Hayles, you used cash; is that right?
21 A I think it's more than that. Yes, ma'am.
22 Q And when you spent the $200 on lottery cards in
23 New York, you used two $100 bills; is that right?
25 Q When you bought new shoes in New York, you used

217
1 $100 bills, right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q When you bought groceries in New York, you used
4 $100 bills; is that right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q When you left Vanessa Hayles $2,000, you left it
7 for her in $100 bills?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q When you gave Vanessa Hayles money for her
10 credit card, you gave it to her in $100 bills; is that
11 right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q When you went to the hotel after you saw your
14 face on the news, you paid for it in $100 bills; is that
15 right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And when you paid the cab driver to come down
18 from D.C., you gave him 11 $100 bills; is that right? Ten
19 for the cab fare, and one for the gas; is that right?
20 A I think it's just $1,000. But if -- I think
21 it's just $1,000 I gave him.
22 Q All in $100 bills?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And we talked earlier, you're pretty good at
25 numbers, right?
218
1 A Yes, ma'am. If it's in front of me.
2 Q Okay. And that all comes up, what we just
3 talked about, to around 6 grand; sound about right?
4 A I didn't do the math, but yeah, if you say
5 6,000.
6 Q Now, when you're in New York on May 20th, you
7 see on the news that you're wanted for these murders; is
8 that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And you're surprised, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Because you thought you got away with it?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Now, when you're up in New York, you had already
15 told your stepmother where you were, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q You had already made a number of calls back to
18 your stepmother trying to find out if your green card had
19 come, right?
20 A To let them know where I was at and if there's
21 any problem with the application.
22 Q Did you call back on a number of occasions
23 asking your stepmother if your green card had arrived?
24 A No, ma'am, because the green card takes a year,
25 so it -- it wouldn't even be processed by then.

219
1 Q So you never called Pamela Wint to ask if your
2 green card had arrived?
3 A I called her and asked her if there's any
4 problem with the application, I need to know.
5 Q That's not my question.
6 Did you call --
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q -- Pamela Wint and ask her if your green card
9 had arrived?
10 A No, ma'am, because it takes a year.
11 Q And so when you called back on May 20th, you
12 called your father on the landline; is that right?
13 A On May 20th?
14 Q The night that your face is all over the news.
15 A I can't remember which number I dialed up, but I
16 know I dialed a number.
17 Q And when you call that number, you don't get a
18 chance really to talk to your dad, he gives the phone to a
19 detective, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And when you talk to the detective, the
22 detective tells you to turn yourself in?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And you don't?
25 A No, ma'am.
220
1 Q And you don't find a way to get back to D.C.
2 that night, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am. I tried.
4 Q I said you don't actually find a way back,
5 right?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q I mean, you know, you talk about this cab that
8 you take the next day. This is one of those sort of
9 unofficial unlicensed taxi cabs, right?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q And you know, I mean, New York City is the city
12 that never sleeps, right, you can get those any time of
13 day?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q You didn't get one on May 20th?
16 A I didn't thought of it that night.
18 A I didn't thought of it.
20 A I didn't thought of it.
22 MS. BACH: He didn't answer it yet.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Wint, if you could just answer
24 the question.
25 Did you get a cab that evening?

221
2 BY MS. BACH:
3 Q Instead, what you did was you ran out of
4 Vanessa's apartment?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And after you ran out of Vanessa's apartment,
7 you left her apartment with Vanessa, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you didn't go to a police station?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q You went to a hotel, right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And you didn't sign for the hotel room; did you?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q You had Vanessa do it, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Because your face was just on the news, right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q You gave her the money, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q But you didn't fill out the paperwork?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q And then you go for a walk while Vanessa's in
24 the hotel room, right?
25 A No, ma'am.
222
1 Q You go out for air while she's in the hotel
2 room?
3 A No, ma'am. I stepped out and used the phone.
4 Q You went outside while she's in the hotel room?
5 A Vanessa went upstairs. I was still outside.
6 Q So you never go into the hotel room?
7 A No, ma'am. I was on the phone.
8 Q All right. So you're outside, and there are two
9 police officers, right?
10 A They pulled up, yes, ma'am.
11 Q You don't turn yourself in?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You run away from them?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And you kept running, right?
16 A I run away from the police officer.
17 Q You jumped over a fence?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q You hurt yourself?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And then you went back to the hotel?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And then the next day, you don't turn yourself
24 in in New York, right?
25 A No, ma'am.
223
1 Q You get in a cab, and you come back down to the
2 area; is that right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Now, I want you to walk us through.
5 What time do you get in that cab in New York; do
6 you know?
7 A In the morning?
8 Q Yeah.
9 A It was early morning. We left the hotel, like,
10 6 something.
11 Q Okay. So what time do you think you get in the
12 cab?
13 A Maybe 7.
14 Q You think around 7?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. So what time do you think you get to
17 D.C.?
18 A It takes about four and a half hours. Four
19 hours with traffic. So four hours after, four and a half
20 hours after.
21 Q So before noon or around noon?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And after you get to D.C., at approximately what
24 time is it that you think you meet Darrell?

224
1 Q So you don't remember the time?
2 A I wasn't paying attention to the time.
3 Q And the first place -- or where exactly do you
4 go with Darrell?
5 A Well, after I get in the car, he drove by the
6 house.
7 Q By the house. And this is Garnett's house that
8 we've already talked about?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q All right. Where do you go after Garnett's
11 house?
12 A After Garnett's house, he was supposed to take
13 me to get something to eat.
14 Q Is this where we go to McDonald's or Burger King
15 or something?
16 A No, ma'am. It was some breakfast place.
17 Q You go to a breakfast place?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And then where do you go after that?
20 A Then he -- he got me a hotel room.
21 Q I'm sorry. He got you the hotel room?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q So it's Garnett's house, breakfast place and
24 then the hotel room; is that right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
225
1 Q Any other stops?
2 A Not to my recall. No, ma'am.
3 Q All right. That's it?
4 A That's it.
5 Q And the breakfast place, do you remember what
6 kind of a breakfast place?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q Okay.
9 A It was parked in front. It was just like
10 waffles and eggs and something. I know I left it in the
11 hotel room.
12 Q All right. So you don't actually eat -- or you
13 don't eat it in the breakfast place, you eat it back at
14 the hotel?
15 A Yes, ma'am. Went and got it, bring it back to
16 the car, and then we went to the hotel.
17 Q And when you saw Darrell, he was wearing
18 painting clothes?
19 A I can't remember what Darrell was wearing.
20 Q You don't remember that he was wearing painting
21 clothes?
22 A I wasn't paying attention to what Darrell was
23 wearing.
24 Q And so I guess on your way to go to Garnett's
25 house, you don't stop and turn yourself in, right?

226
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q Don't turn yourself in on the way to the
3 breakfast place?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q Don't turn yourself in on the way to the hotel?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q When you get to the hotel, you're not the one
8 who's filling out the paperwork, right?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q Because your face is on TV, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q But it's your money that's paying for the hotel
13 room?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q Not your money?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q Whose money?
18 A Darrell's money.
19 Q Did you see that?
20 A If I see that in the car?
21 Q No. Did you see who paid for the hotel room?
22 A Somebody paid for -- Garnett went in and got it.
23 I didn't pay for it.
24 Q So it was somebody, it just wasn't you?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
227
1 Q And at that point, you just lay -- you just sit
2 in a hotel room until later on that day?
3 A Yes, ma'am, because Darrell was supposed to come
4 back and get me a lawyer.
5 Q So Darrell's getting you the lawyer?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Who's calling the lawyer?
8 A I called the lawyer.
9 Q Is it you getting the lawyer or Darrell getting
10 the lawyer?
11 A Darrell is getting the lawyer. I called the
12 lawyer for me.
13 Q I'm just confused.
14 A Okay.
15 Q When you say "getting," what does that mean?
16 A It means Darrell's paying for the lawyer, but I
17 called the lawyer and let the lawyer know that I'm waiting
18 for my brother to come back.
19 Q So Darrell's paying for the lawyer, but you're
20 the one who's actually making the calls to the lawyer?
21 A Yes, ma'am, because I need the lawyer.
22 Q Okay. You need the lawyer, so you're making the
23 calls, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And Darrell's going to pay for it, right?

228
1 A Yes, ma'am. I was making sure the lawyer just
2 know that I'm still coming.
3 Q And you're totally okay with that arrangement,
4 right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Okay. And so when all of these phone calls are
7 being made, you're using this flip phone to make these
8 phone calls, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q Not using your phone, right?
11 A No, ma'am. My phone's not on.
13 A I can't call from my phone.
14 Q There's no Wi-Fi in the hotel?
15 A Not that hotel, no, ma'am.
16 Q There's no Wi-Fi at the Howard Johnson?
17 A I'm not sure. I didn't check. I had two
18 phones. I mean, I had the flip phone.
19 Q Right.
20 A So I didn't care about making calls off of Wi-Fi
21 when I can call straight off that phone.
22 Q So you were just using the flip phone instead of
23 your phone?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And so at some point, Darrell comes back; is

229
1 that right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q And it's at that point you're saying that you
4 think you're going to a lawyer, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am. That was the plan.
6 Q That was the plan, because you said that there
7 was no way you would have gone directly to the police; is
8 that right?
9 A Without the lawyer, yes, ma'am.
10 Q Right. You were not interested in going
11 directly to the police, right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q And I guess just to be clear, when is it that
14 you're provided with the money orders?
15 A In the hotel when Darrell came back.
16 Q So when Darrell comes back at what point?
17 Approximately what time?
18 A It was late. I think I kept looking at the
19 phone. At that time, it was after 9 or 10.
20 Q So, like, 9 or 10 at night, that's the first
21 time you see these money orders?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Never saw the money orders before that?
24 A No, ma'am.
25 Q No information about money orders before that?

230
1 A Information with money orders?
2 Q Yeah.
3 A Not to my knowledge, no, ma'am.
4 Q You had no idea that anybody was getting money
5 orders before that?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q So you knew about the money orders?
8 A I knew Darrell was out getting the money.
9 Q Well, no. I'm asking about money orders.
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q So you had no idea about money orders until,
12 like, 9 or 10 that night?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q So at this point, you guys -- you get into a car
15 with three girls; is that right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q And I think we talked on direct that you weren't
18 really interested in chitchatting with these girls, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And you heard Ms. Ruffin testify about how you
21 seemed kind of standoffish, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And you explained that you just weren't
24 interested in talking to them, right?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
231
1 Q And you heard her testify that you would pull a
2 phone out of your bag, and then you would look in it for a
3 phone number, and then you would dial the number; do you
4 remember that?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q And that's actually exactly what you were doing,
7 right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. And then you also heard her testify about
10 the smell that was coming out of your hair, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And do you remember her testifying about how
13 close the two of you were in the back of the car?
14 A Yes, ma'am. We was in the back seat.
15 Q Now, you also said on direct that at no point
16 did you ever try to flee; do you remember those questions?
17 A Yes, ma'am. From the car?
18 Q No. No. Anywhere.
19 You never tried to flee the country. Do you
20 remember those questions?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Well, when you were in New York and you saw your
23 face on the news, it was the national news, right?
24 A It was the New York news. Whatever news channel
25 Vanessa was on. I didn't pay attention to the channel.

232
1 My only concern was my picture is in the news.
2 Q Okay. Well, it's the New York news running a
3 D.C. story, right?
5 Q Okay. And you were asked questions about why it
6 was you didn't flee the United States; do you remember
7 that?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you had just seen your picture on the news,
10 right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And you don't have any kind of photo ID; is that
13 right?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q And you don't have a passport, right?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q There's no way you could have fled the country
18 anyway; is there?
19 A I don't know. No. I don't think you could
20 travel without an ID.
21 Q No, you can't travel without an ID; can you?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q All right. Now, when you got in the car on
24 May 21st, you thought you were going to see a lawyer,
25 right?
233
1 A Yes, ma'am. The night from the hotel?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q It was not your intention to be arrested by the
5 police in that car that night; is that right?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q It was not your intention to be stopped in the
8 car that night with a bunch of money orders; is that
9 right?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q It was not your intention to be stopped in the
12 car that night with your cell phone; was it?
13 A I wouldn't say it's not my intention. My
14 intention was not to be stopped, period.
15 Q Exactly.
16 A I was going to the lawyer, and the lawyer --
17 Q It wasn't your intention to be stopped at all by
18 the police that night, right?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q And you would have never gone with Darrell if
21 you knew that was his plan; is that right?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q And you later found out that that was Darrell's
24 plan; isn't that right?
25 A No, ma'am.
234
1 Q You never learned that?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q You never -- well, you sat here and watched
4 George Elias testify; didn't you?
5 A Oh, yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Right. And you knew that that was the plan,
7 right?
8 A Yes, ma'am. I thought you meant, like,
9 paperwork or something.
10 Q So you never saw any paperwork, you're saying,
11 that said Darrell was turning you in; is that what you're
12 saying?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q But you knew that Darrell's plan was to take you
15 to the police, right?
16 A After George Elias testified, yes, ma'am.
17 Q Well, prior to that, you saw some paperwork that
18 showed that there was a detective's name and phone number
19 in that truck that he was in, right? You saw that?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q You saw that prior to trial; didn't you?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q So you knew that was in his truck?
24 A Yes, ma'am. I know the phone number's in there.
25 Q So to be clear, Darrell didn't follow the plan?

235
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q We also --
3 MS. BACH: Court's indulgence.
4 BY MS. BACH:
5 Q You also testified about how it was that you
6 ended up in Dennis Wint's home after you were kicked out
7 of Steffon's house; do you remember that?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you testified that you were angry that
10 Steffon put you out; do you remember that?
11 A I was upset, yes, ma'am.
12 Q You were angry?
13 A Very upset.
14 Q You were angry?
15 A Okay.
16 Q Do you not remember saying yesterday you were
17 angry?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. You were angry at him, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q And you were testifying -- you said yesterday
22 that it all happened the same night that you left a voice
23 mail for Vanessa; do you remember that?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q And you said that you were angry that same

236
1 night, so you left this message for Vanessa just so she
2 would know how angry you were? Those were your words; do
3 you remember that?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Well, in reality, sir, that voice mail that you
6 left for Vanessa was days later; don't you remember that?
7 A No, ma'am. That voice mail was the same day.
8 That's why I said it.
9 Q It was the same -- I know that's what you said.
10 But you're saying it's the same day, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q April 1st is Steffon's birthday, right?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q And so the fight with Steffon, it's your
15 testimony it happened on Steffon's birthday, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q So even though this entire incident happens at
18 night and it's an argument over dishes, you're saying that
19 the voice mail that you left that same evening was
20 actually left on Steffon's birthday at 1:00 in the
21 afternoon?
22 A The argument didn't happen at night.
23 Q Oh, so the argument happened in the middle of
24 the day while Steffon was at work?
25 A No. It happened in the afternoon.

237
1 Q Well, let's talk about that, Mr. Wint.
2 Yesterday afternoon after the jurors left, we
3 had some conversations about questions that you might be
4 asked on cross-examination; didn't we?
5 MS. PIPE: Can we approach?
6 THE COURT: Yeah. Parties can approach.
8 MS. BACH: I'm not getting into anything other
9 than the fact that I specifically said yesterday we were
10 going into this, and he's now tailored his testimony to
11 it. That's all.
12 MS. PIPE: He hasn't tailored. He's always said
13 it was the same day.
14 MS. BACH: No. He didn't say April 1st and the
15 birthday. We were the ones who told him April 1st
16 yesterday. Now today he said April 1st.
17 MS. PIPE: No. April 1st has been in the
18 records the whole time.
19 MS. BACH: And he's changed the time.
20 MS. PIPE: I don't remember what he said about
21 the time.
22 MS. BACH: He said at night. Now he says it's
23 in the middle of the afternoon, which is what we said, and
24 we were the ones who brought up the date. Yesterday we
25 talked about this. He has now twisted it entirely to do

238
1 exactly what --
2 THE COURT: I mean, I probably don't have that
3 level of detail in my notes. I can go back and look.
4 MS. BACH: But we're not getting into any of the
5 other stuff.
6 MS. PIPE: I mean, my objection is to
7 referencing anything that happens outside the presence of
8 the jury and that his --
9 THE COURT: I know, and I just wanted to bring
10 parties up because I certainly don't want there to be
11 anything that's going to teeter on any sort of
12 attorney/client --
13 MS. BACH: No. It happened in open court.
14 THE COURT: Or positions that Ms. Pipe may have
15 taken that the Court may have ruled --
16 MS. BACH: No.
17 THE COURT: -- contrary to. So I just wanted to
18 make sure it wasn't going there, that Ms. Pipe tried to
19 keep it out and the judge said no.
20 MS. BACH: No. No. No. No.
21 THE COURT: You just want to elicit that he --
22 MS. BACH: That we talked about it, and he heard
23 it, and now he's tailoring his testimony.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I'll permit it.
25 MS. PIPE: I'm not sure about the factual

239
1 foundation, I don't have his transcript. But as I recall,
2 he did say this happened the same day. The voice mail has
3 always been, and that's what came out at trial when they
4 played it the first time, that it was on April 1st.
5 Steffon said his birthday was April 1st in the trial. So
6 I don't know that anything happened yesterday.
7 MS. BACH: It's the time.
8 THE COURT: Wait. I think it's the time. And
9 is it also the Government's position that up until now, he
10 did not -- he's always said that he -- the fight happened
11 on Steffon's birthday?
12 MS. BACH: No. He's never said that.
13 THE COURT: I thought he said the fight happened
14 prior to Steffon's birthday.
15 MS. BACH: Steffon said it happened prior to his
16 birthday. He never mentioned the birthday. I mentioned
17 the birthday yesterday and the time.
18 THE COURT: Okay. I'll permit it. Thank you.
19 (Open court.)
20 BY MS. BACH:
21 Q Mr. Wint, and again, so that we don't bore the
22 jurors silly, sometimes we have conversations outside of
23 the presence of the jury, just talking about legal stuff
24 and about questions that we may or may not ask on the
25 record the next day.

240
1 And were you present yesterday when we were
2 doing some of that?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. And one of the things that I talked about
5 was that I intended to ask you about a voice mail, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And you remember standing right here when I did
8 that, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And when we were talking about that, I pointed
11 out that you had said that the voice mail -- or that you
12 had testified that the incident was at night, and the
13 voice mail was actually left at 1:00 in the afternoon; do
14 you remember me saying that?
15 A I think so. I'm not sure.
16 Q And do you also remember me saying that
17 April 1st, that's Steffon's birthday; do you remember me
18 saying that?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And now you're testifying, oh, no, the voice
21 mail, it was on Steffon's birthday, and the argument was
22 in the afternoon?
23 A Because if I recall, I think you said that the
24 message was left on his birthday. I said the message was
25 left the day of the incident.

241
1 Q Do you remember, sir, are you now testifying
2 that the message was left and that the incident happened
3 in the middle of the day?
4 A If the message was left in the afternoon, the
5 incident happened earlier before the message. I can't
6 quite remember time.
7 Q Let's just listen to the message and make sure
8 we're talking about the same thing.
9 MR. BRUCKMANN: Are we up for sound?
10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: We are up for sound.
11 (Audio played.)
12 BY MS. BACH:
13 Q Okay. So this is the voice mail that you're
14 leaving for Vanessa, right?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And in order for you to be leaving this voice
17 mail for Vanessa, you had to have found Wi-Fi somewhere,
18 right?
19 A I was in the house.
20 Q You had to have found Wi-Fi somewhere; is that
21 right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And you're in whose house?
24 A I'm in somebody's house.
25 Q Yeah, somebody's house.

242
1 Whose?
2 A Between Steffon or Dennis.
3 Q You're between Steffon's house or Dennis's
4 house; is that what you're saying.
5 A Yes, ma'am. One of them. Somebody with Wi-Fi.
6 Q So Steffon's put you out of the house, called
7 the police, and now you're back in his house leaving a
8 voice mail about how he put you out?
9 A Because --
11 THE COURT: Hold on. Can I have parties
12 approach for a moment?
14 MS. PIPE: There's been no testimony or evidence
15 that the police were actually called.
16 THE COURT: That was my recollection as well.
17 So do you want me --
18 MS. PIPE: I would ask to strike it and
19 disregard --
20 THE COURT: Disregard the last question and then
21 rephrase.
22 MS. BACH: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
23 Wait. Wait.
24 Steffon did testify that the police were called,
25 first of all.
243
1 MS. PIPE: No, he didn't.
2 MS. BACH: And second of all, we now have him
3 testifying that he's inside of the very house where the
4 missing clip talks about how he's about to go back in
5 there, okay, and do these things.
6 THE COURT: Yeah. My concern was just with
7 respect to the reference of the police --
8 MS. PIPE: Correct.
9 THE COURT: -- being called.
10 MS. BACH: And Steffon testified that the police
11 were called.
12 MS. PIPE: That's not my recollection.
13 MS. BACH: I'm positive he did. But the bigger
14 issue is the fact that now he's claiming he's inside of
15 the house when the missing clip shows full well he's not
16 in the house.
17 MS. PIPE: He said one or the other.
18 MS. BACH: Okay. Well, I think I won't get into
19 what else was said, but I think I should be able to ask,
20 in that same voice mail, on another portion of it, you
21 actually refer to going back inside of that house and --
22 MS. PIPE: You can say all that, I mean, to
23 prove that he didn't.
24 But the fact that the police were called --
25 first of all, there's no record of the police being

244
1 called. And as I recall it, Steffon did not say that. I
2 believe his mother in the grand jury says that somewhere,
3 but that has not happened in this trial.
4 MS. BACH: I think -- I actually think you're
5 wrong. I don't really even care that much about it. I'm
6 more concerned about the latter.
7 THE COURT: I don't think we're going to be able
8 to get a definitive answer right now, and I know there was
9 no follow-up questions about, well, did the police come.
10 MS. PIPE: I would have asked, so you're saying
11 the police came, where's the record of that. I would have
12 had a whole chapter.
13 THE COURT: My recollection is that --
15 THE COURT: We're in agreement to sanitize.
16 So I'm just going to ask the jury, in a
17 non-judgmental way -- they won't even remember what the
18 question was -- to disregard the last question, and
19 Ms. Bach is going to rephrase the question.
20 MS. BACH: Okay. Well then I guess the next
21 question is when I ask, well, we know you weren't in
22 Steffon's house -- I'll try to think of a way to --
23 MS. PIPE: We know you weren't in Steffon's
24 house. You just had this fight --
25 THE COURT: You just had an argument --

245
1 MS. PIPE: -- and what you say on the voice mail
2 is, I'm about to go back in there or whatever else he
3 says.
4 THE COURT: You can play the voice mail.
5 MS. BACH: Well, no. The portion where he talks
6 about I'm about to go back in there is the portion I'm not
7 allowed to play.
8 THE COURT: Oh, I see.
9 MS. PIPE: Oh.
10 MS. BACH: That's what I'm saying.
11 MS. PIPE: There's portions of that.
12 MS. BACH: No. It doesn't talk about --
13 THE COURT: Going back in there.
14 MS. BACH: Right. I know.
15 MS. PIPE: He says in the beginning they just
16 put me out. Just say that.
17 MS. BACH: I did, and he's saying he's still
18 making it from inside the house.
19 MS. PIPE: So you're saying it's from Dennis's
20 house or Steffon's house. Isn't the first thing you say
21 they just put me out. How is it that you're sitting in
22 Steffon's house when he said he just put you out.
23 MS. BACH: I did.
24 (Open court.)
25 THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, you

246
1 probably don't even remember what the last question was.
2 To the extent that you do, I'm going to ask that you
3 disregard it, and Ms. Bach is going to ask the question
4 another way.
5 Thank you.
6 BY MS. BACH:
7 Q Whose house were you in using the Wi-Fi?
8 A I don't know. I'm not sure.
9 Q You don't know whose house you were in?
10 A I know I left the message after, I think.
11 Q Okay. So you're not in Steffon's house anymore,
12 right?
13 A I'm not sure.
14 Q You're not sure?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q You said on the voice mail you were just put
17 out; is that right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. And you also refer to going back into the
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Okay. So you're not in the house, right?
23 A No.
24 Q And the reason you left that voice mail that
25 night for Vanessa, you wanted her to know how angry you
247
1 were; is that right?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Because that was important to you that she know
4 how angry you were; is that right?
5 A No. I just wanted her to know what happened,
6 but also I was upset.
7 Q You wanted her to know, you testified yesterday,
8 how angry you were; is that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 MS. BACH: And this is the second part.
11 (Audio played.)
12 BY MS. BACH:
13 Q And when you say -- and you're talking about the
14 "they've got to go with you, too."
15 You're talking about your mom, right?
16 A Everybody who was in the house.
17 Q Right. That's your mom, right?
18 A That's my mom.
19 Q Your sister?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Your brother, Steffon?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Now, this incident that we've already talked
24 about a couple of times that happened sort of a week
25 before this voice mail on March 23rd, okay, with your

248
1 minivan, you said that you got pulled over in this minivan
2 because it had bad tags on it, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Okay. And when you got pulled over in that
5 minivan, it was not a big deal you said, right?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q Because, like, you just got, you said
8 fingerprinted, and that was it?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q I mean, it wasn't even like you got arrested or
11 anything, it was a nothing charge?
12 A I wouldn't say -- I was took to the station, so
13 I probably -- I was arrested.
14 Q It wasn't really a big deal though, right?
15 A No. He just took me in to make sure who I said
16 I was was right.
17 Q So let's be clear. When the police first came
18 to you and you're in that unregistered van, you didn't
19 tell them that you were Daron Wint?
20 A They asked me for license and registration.
21 Q You didn't tell them that you were Daron Wint?
22 A I'm -- I don't -- no.
23 Q No, you didn't tell them your true name, right?
24 A I did, but I didn't.
25 Q You lied to them?

249
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q You gave them the name Steffon Wint, right?
3 A To put the -- to put the -- my towed van in,
4 yes, ma'am.
5 Q No. You lied to them about your name.
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q You told them you were Steffon Wint, right?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And you told them that because you didn't want
10 to get in trouble, right?
11 A That's actually not what happened.
12 Q I'm sorry.
13 Did you give them Steffon's name?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And did you give them Steffon's date of birth?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q All right. And you didn't give them your
18 information, right?
19 A Yes, I did, ma'am.
20 Q After they fingerprinted you, right?
21 A Before they fingerprinted me.
22 Q Okay. But your first instinct was to give them
23 Steffon's information?
24 A Because I didn't have a valid ID to get my van
25 back from impound.

250
1 Q Your first instinct was to give them Steffon's
2 information?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q And you didn't care one bit how it was going to
5 affect Steffon; did you?
6 A Yes, I did care, ma'am.
7 Q You did, but you did it anyway?
8 A Because I know he wasn't going to get in no
9 trouble.
10 Q You did it anyway?
11 A Yes, ma'am. Just to get my van. So he could go
12 and get my van.
13 Q Now, again, just to be clear back in May of
14 2015, just so we know, how big were you? How tall?
15 A I'm still the same height.
16 Q How tall are you?
17 A I'm five-six, five-seven.
18 Q How much did you weigh?
19 A 165.
20 Q All right. And we've already established you
21 went to the gym all the time, right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q You were not going to have any problem
24 overpowering a 5-foot 8 man; are you?
25 A I was strong. I don't think so.

251
1 Q Okay. You're not going to have any problem
2 overpowering a 57-year-old female, right?
3 A No, ma'am, I don't think so.
4 Q You're not going to have any problem
5 overpowering a 5-foot 4, 138-pound woman, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q And you can certainly overpower a ten-year-old
8 boy; is that right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q You've lied to Vanessa, right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q You've lied to Mr. Ventura, the tow truck
13 driver; is that right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q You've lied to your father, Dennis, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q You've lied to your stepmother, Pam, right?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q You've lied to Derrick Ayling, right?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q You've lied to the police, right?
22 A I didn't lie to my stepmother.
23 Q You didn't lie to your stepmother?
24 A I can't remember. When did I tell her a lie?
25 Q You didn't lie to your stepmother about where

252
1 you had been on May 14th and May 13th?
2 A We didn't have that -- I was having a
3 conversation with my father.
4 Q Oh. So she was just overhearing it, but it
5 wasn't directly to her?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. And you lied to the police, right? About
8 Steffon's name, we just talked about it.
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q You were not at home on May 13th and May 14th of
11 2015; is that right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You didn't come home on May 14th until 6:00
14 p.m.; is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You weren't --
17 A I don't --
18 Q You weren't out looking for a job?
19 A I don't quite know what time I got home, but I
20 came home on May 14th in the afternoon.
21 Q In the afternoon or in the evening?
22 A In the afternoon. Late evening/afternoon.
23 Q So you don't even know?
24 A I know it was in the afternoon.
25 Q Well, the afternoon is 3 or 4:00.

253
1 A No. I came home, like, around 5 something.
2 Q You came home around 5?
3 A Around 5, 5 something, yes, ma'am.
4 Q 5 something or 6 something?
5 A 5 something.
6 Q You heard Pam testify that it was 6 something;
7 is that wrong?
8 A Ma'am, I'm only telling you the way I remember
9 what really happened.
10 Q I'm asking you if Pam's wrong.
11 A I don't know if she's wrong.
14 BY MS. BACH:
15 Q And you're telling us that you were not out
16 looking for a job on those days, right?
17 A No, ma'am.
18 Q And you weren't trying to communicate with
19 anybody on Facebook or social media at that time; is that
20 right?
21 A Because I couldn't.
22 Q And you were at 3201 Woodland on May 14th?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q On May 14th, you were at 3201 Woodland, right?

254
1 Q And you're the guy who's ducking underneath the
2 garage door, right?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q And you're the guy with the dreadlocks down to
5 his shoulder blade, right?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q You're the guy with the black string backpack,
8 right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q You're the guy whose DNA is on the pizza crust,
11 right?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q And you're the guy whose DNA is on the pizza
14 crust, because you're the guy who's eating pizza in that
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q On May 14th?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q And just so everybody, I guess, is aware, you're
20 the guy who's wearing the construction vest that's found
21 in that burned up Porsche; is that right?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And it's --
24 A I think so.
25 Q And it's your DNA on that construction vest,

255
1 right?
2 A I would assume so, yes, ma'am. I was wearing
3 the construction vest, and a vest -- I was wearing the
4 vest, so probably, yes, ma'am.
5 Q And your DNA is on it because you were wearing
6 it, right?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q And you were wearing it at 3201 Woodland, right?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q And you picked it up out of the garage at that
11 home, right?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You didn't get that construction vest out of the
14 garage at 3201 Woodland?
15 A Darrell gave it to me in the garage.
16 Q Oh, so Darrell gave it to you.
17 It came out of the garage of 3201 Woodland?
18 A I don't know where it came from, ma'am. He
19 handed it to me.
20 Q Where were you standing when he gave it to you?
21 A In the garage.
22 Q At 3201 Woodland?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q And your hair is in the hard hat, right?
25 A I don't know. I put the hard hat on. I don't

256
1 know whose hair it is.
2 Q The hard hat that's found on the floor at 3201
3 Woodland, that's the hard hat you put on your head, right?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q And the hair that came out of that hard hat is
6 your hair; is that right?
7 A I was wearing the hard hat. I don't know whose
8 hair it is, ma'am.
9 Q Well, you're the one who put it on your head,
10 right?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q And you put it on your head inside of 3201
13 Woodland, right?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And that would certainly explain why your hair
16 would be in the hard hat, right?
17 A Yes, ma'am, because I had it on.
18 Q Because you had it on at that location, right?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q Just like you had that knife at that location,
21 right?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q Just like you had your hair in that room with
24 those three dead people in that location, right?
25 A No, ma'am.
257
1 Q Your hair in the bed next to the bat you used to
2 kill Amy and Savvas Savopoulos; isn't that right?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 MS. BACH: I don't have anything else, Your
5 Honor.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to take a break
7 at this time?
8 MS. PIPE: That would be great.
9 THE COURT: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen,
10 we're going to take our midafternoon break just until
11 3:30, so 20 minutes. And I will see you back at 3:30 to
12 complete Mr. Wint's testimony.
13 And Mr. Wint, you can just remain in the witness
14 box, but you're free to stand.
15 (Jury not present at 3:14 p.m.)
16 THE COURT: I'll give the instruction before you
17 get started.
18 MS. PIPE: Great. Thank you.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 (A brief recess was taken.)
21 THE COURT: Okay. And I'll note that counsel
22 and Mr. Wint are again before the Court.
23 So I'm going to read the instruction that the
24 parties agreed on to the jury before Ms. Pipe commences
25 redirect, and then based upon our discussion up at the

258
1 bench, when the jurors are excused today, we're going to
2 have them report back on Monday at 9:45; does that work?
3 MS. BACH: Sure.
4 MS. PIPE: Yes.
5 THE COURT: I also thought that it might make
6 sense to just again give them 2.508, not necessarily in
7 its entirety, but the cautionary instruction on publicity.
8 MS. BACH: Agreed.
9 MS. PIPE: Okay.
10 THE COURT: Terrific. Then we will bring the
11 jurors back in.
12 MS. PIPE: Okay.
13 (Jury present at 3:33 p.m.)
14 THE COURT: Okay. Good afternoon again, ladies
15 and gentlemen.
16 Ladies and gentlemen, before we resume
17 Mr. Wint's testimony, I just want to provide you with the
18 following instruction.
19 The Government has asked Mr. Wint about his
20 knowledge of the evidence and the presence in the
21 courtroom throughout of the trial. The Government is
22 permitted to ask these questions; however, Mr. Wint has a
23 constitutional right to be present during his trial and
24 have knowledge of the evidence against him. There is
25 nothing inappropriate about Mr. Wint being present

259
1 throughout the trial or having knowledge of the evidence
2 against him. Okay. Thank you.
3 And Ms. Pipe, whenever you're ready. And
4 Mr. Wint, I'll again remind you again that you do remain
5 under oath.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. PIPE:
9 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Wint.
10 A Good afternoon.
11 Q Now, the Government asked you a lot of questions
12 about your knowledge about the evidence in this case; do
13 you remember those questions?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Okay. Was there a whole lot of discovery in
16 this case?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Are we talking thousands and thousands and
19 thousands of pages of discovery?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Before we even get to the electronic data dumps;
22 is that fair?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q Okay. Have you looked at a lot of it?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
260
1 Q Okay. Have you looked at all of it?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q Okay. Let's talk about statements from
4 witnesses that -- the Government asked you a lot of
5 questions about that?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Are you aware that when witnesses go to the
8 grand jury, there's a transcript made?
9 A I learned that during the trial, yes, ma'am.
10 Q Okay. Prior to this trial starting, did anyone
11 give you copies of those transcripts?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q Did anybody read you copies of those
14 transcripts?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q Did anyone sit there while you read copies of
17 those transcripts?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q Did you eventually, at some point, read some of
20 those transcripts?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q When?
23 A When they was on the stand.
24 Q All of the transcripts that you have read, are
25 they for witnesses who have testified in this case?

261
1 A I'm confused by that question.
2 Q I did say that weird.
3 You've said you've read some witness's
4 transcripts, right?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Every transcript that you've read, is that of a
7 witness who took the stand in this case?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. You've read transcripts of witnesses who
10 did not testify?
11 A I read transcripts, right. I read transcripts
12 for witnesses that didn't take the stand.
13 Q You read some who did not testify?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Okay. When have you read those?
16 A I can't remember, but it was a while back.
17 Q Was it before or after this trial started?
18 A Before the trial started.
19 Q Did you understand what I was asking you?
20 A Okay. I read the transcript for witnesses that
21 did not testify, but witnesses that testified, I didn't
22 read anything.
23 Q Okay.
24 A Do you understand what I'm saying?
25 Q No.
262
1 A I mean -- okay. Everybody that took the
2 stand --
3 Q Let me try this again. Okay.
4 We talked about before, did you read any
5 transcripts before this trial started?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q Okay. Once this trial started, did you read
8 some transcripts?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q Okay. When I say "take the stand," people who
11 were sitting in that same exact chair that you are sitting
12 in, right?
13 A Yes, ma'am. That's the transcripts that I read.
14 Q Okay. Have you read any transcripts of
15 witnesses who did not sit in that seat where you are
16 sitting?
17 A That's the question that is tripping me up.
18 Q Do you remember reading any transcripts of
19 people who didn't sit in that witness seat?
20 A No, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. Are you maybe forgetting everyone who has
22 testified in this trial and you're not exactly sure? Is
23 that why you're confused a little?
24 A Kind of, sort of.
25 Q Has it been a very long day for you, sir?

263
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q Okay. Ms. Bach asked you a lot of questions
3 about whether you knew that the Government had talked to
4 members of your family; do you remember those questions?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q Did you know that they talked to your mother?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Did you know that they talked to your father?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q Did you know they talked to your stepmother?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Did you know that they talked to your sister,
13 Samantha?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Did you know that they talked to your two little
16 sisters?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q The sister who lives with Pam and Dennis Wint?
19 Is that Seanna Wint?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. Did you know that they talked to the
22 sister who lives with Steffon and your mother, Cheryl?
23 A Yes, ma'am.
24 Q Do you know that they've talked to basically
25 every single person in your family who lives in the United

264
1 States?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Okay. Was it your understanding that some of
4 your family wanted to be here to support you during your
5 trial?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q What is your understanding about why they can't
8 be here?
9 A Because the Government said they need them to
10 take the stand.
11 Q Okay. I want to talk to you about when you
12 worked at AIW.
13 Where did the -- the Government asked you a lot
14 of questions about who you thought ran the business.
15 Where did that knowledge come from about who the
16 owner of the business was?
17 A The employees.
18 Q Okay. And the employees of?
19 A American Iron Works.
20 Q Okay. How often would you see Philip Savopoulos
21 at AIW?
22 A Once, sometimes twice a week.
23 Q And is that towards the beginning, middle or end
24 of your tenure at American Iron Works?
25 A The beginning.
265
1 Q Okay. Mr. Wint, have you ever lived in the
2 District?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Where have you lived most of your life while
5 you've been in the U.S.?
6 A Lanham, Maryland and New York.
7 Q Are you particularly familiar with the District
8 of Columbia?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q Do you know how to get to different places in
11 the District of Columbia?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q I want to talk to you about Darrell Wint, your
14 brother. We talked a little bit about the child that he
15 has.
16 Does he have one child or more than one child?
17 A More than one.
18 Q Are they all with the same mother or different
19 mothers?
20 A Different mothers.
21 Q Do you know all of those children?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q Okay. Do you know which child he had with him
24 on the day that you helped him move into that apartment?
25 A No, ma'am.
266
1 Q Okay. The child that you saw there, you said
2 the child was walking?
3 A Yeah. Walking and kind of -- yeah, walking. I
4 would say he was falling down sometimes.
5 Q Do you think you're particularly good on the
6 ages of children and babies?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q Okay. To you, a baby is anyone who's kind of
9 like yay high?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 THE COURT: And we'll just -- for the record,
12 you had your hand about two and a half feet off the
13 ground.
14 MS. PIPE: Okay.
15 BY MS. PIPE:
16 Q And I guess, do you know whether or not the
17 child you saw with Darrell that day is the same child who
18 lived in that apartment with him?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q So let's talk about your knowledge of Darrell's
21 phone records.
22 Do you remember the Government asking you those
23 questions?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Okay. And I believe the questions the

267
1 Government asked you is, do you know that his phone
2 records don't put him anywhere near 3201 Woodland Drive;
3 do you remember those questions?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Okay. Have you looked at those phone records?
6 I guess, were you here when the CAST agent came in and
7 testified about it?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Okay. Is there GPS data for the entire day of
10 May 13th for Darrell's phone records?
11 A On that data?
12 Q Yes.
13 A I don't think so, no.
14 Q Okay. And do you know whether or not Darrell
15 had that phone on him on May 13th?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q What about May 14th when the CAST agent
18 testified, did you see whether or not there was GPS data
19 throughout the entire day of May 14th for that phone?
20 A I can't remember. I don't think so.
21 Q Okay. And do you know if Darrell had his phone
22 on him that day?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q So let's talk a little bit about Ed.
25 The Government said to you, do you know Ed is

268
1 dead. Did you know Ed was dead?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q Since the time that you've been arrested, have
4 you been in the community, Mr. Wint?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q Do you have a phone number for Ed?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q Did you have any way of getting in touch with
9 him?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q Do you know all of the drugs that Ed used?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q What drugs do you remember seeing him use back
14 on May 13th?
15 A Weed.
16 Q Okay. Is it possible he was doing other drugs?
17 A It's possible.
18 Q When you were dropped off at Ed's house on the
19 13th, how long did you expect to be there?
20 A Just until 5, 6 in the afternoon, evening.
21 Q So between the time that you're dropped off at
22 Ed's house and between 5 or 6 in the evening, why not call
23 anyone or try to find a way home?
24 A Because I wasn't -- I was supposed to be gone by
25 then.
269
1 Q Okay. Were you supposed to be there until 5 or
2 6 p.m.?
3 A Yes, ma'am. Until Darrell came back.
4 Q And when Darrell doesn't come back by 5 or
5 6 p.m., why not call somebody or go home then?
6 A I didn't have a way to call anybody.
7 Q Why not go home?
8 A Because I didn't think Darrell was not going to
9 come back with my van.
10 Q Ms. Bach asked you questions about being hungry
11 when you left Ed's house the morning of the 14th with
12 Darrell and that Porsche; do you remember those questions?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Did you make a stop for food when you left Ed's
15 house?
16 A No, ma'am.
17 Q Why not?
18 A Because Darrell told me there was food where we
19 was going. I wanted to save my money.
20 Q Did you end up getting food where you were
21 going?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Was that the pizza?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q When, on May 14th, did you first see Darrell

270
1 wearing gloves?
2 A When he brought the pizza.
3 Q Why did you notice it then?
5 Q Sure.
6 Why is it when Darrell had the pizza that you
7 noticed he was wearing gloves? Why did that come to your
8 attention?
9 A Because when he opened the box, I asked him why
10 would you grab something for me to eat with these dirty
11 gloves.
12 Q Did you see when he put those gloves on?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Is it possible he was wearing gloves long before
15 he grabbed the pizza box?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q When you were eating that pizza, were you paying
18 particular attention to what parts of the pizza box you
19 were touching?
20 A No, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. Were you trying not to touch the pizza
22 box?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q When it was brought down to you, who opened it?
25 A Darrell.
271
1 Q When the box was in front of you -- where did he
2 put it when he brought it down?
3 A On the table.
4 Q And when he opened it when the box was in front
5 of you, was the box ever closed in front of you?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q Did you ever see the top of the pizza box?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q If there was blood on top of the pizza box,
10 would you have seen it?
11 A With it open?
12 Q Yes.
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Okay. Ms. Bach asked you questions about what
15 you heard while you were in the house; do you remember
16 those questions?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Do you remember her saying you never mentioned
19 the dogs on direct?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. Did I ask you about hearing dogs on
22 direct?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q So is that my fault?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
272
1 Q Okay. Did I ask you what you heard while you
2 were in the house, or did I ask you, did you hear anyone
3 upstairs?
4 A You asked me if I heard anyone upstairs.
5 Q Okay. If I had asked you did you hear anything
6 in that house, what would your answer have been?
7 A I hear dogs.
8 Q When -- so after you leave the house out of the
9 garage and Darrell picks you up in the Porsche -- do you
10 remember the questions Ms. Bach asked you about why didn't
11 you get the keys from Darrell, why didn't you ask Darrell
12 for the keys; do you remember those questions?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q So when you're in the Porsche with Darrell,
15 where is Darrell supposed to be taking you?
16 A To my van.
17 Q Who was going to be with you when you got to the
18 van?
19 A Darrell.
20 Q So why not ask Darrell for the keys while you're
21 in the Porsche?
22 A Because he was going to be with me when I go to
23 my van.
24 Q So when you got out of the Porsche when you're
25 at that parking lot, why didn't you ask Darrell for your
273
1 keys then?
2 A I forgot.
3 Q Do you remember Ms. Bach's questions about, you
4 know, did you have the van towed because you were afraid
5 that there was stuff in the van related to this crime? Do
6 you remember those questions?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Why did you have your van towed?
9 A Because I didn't have the keys.
10 Q Did you eventually find the keys?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Once you found the keys, what did you do?
13 A Drove home.
14 Q You heard the testimony from the tow truck
15 driver, right?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Okay. And you saw the pictures of 2400
18 Pennsylvania Avenue being put up on the screen; do you
19 remember that?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q Okay. And you remember hearing the tow truck
22 driver say that you gave him directions of how to get to
23 the van, right?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Do you remember seeing the Walmart receipt

274
1 before Ms. Bach asked you questions that said that there
2 were painter's pants on the receipt instead of jeans? Do
3 you remember seeing that?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Let me ask you this: Why didn't you just
6 testify that the van was picked up on 2400 Pennsylvania
7 Avenue, that you gave the tow truck driver directions
8 about how to get to your van, and that Darrell got
9 painter's pants and not jeans?
10 A Because I'm just telling it the way I remember
11 it.
12 Q Okay. Are you trying to craft your testimony to
13 match what the witnesses have said in this trial,
14 Mr. Wint?
15 A No, ma'am.
16 Q What are you trying to testify to?
17 A Just the way I remember it.
18 Q I want to talk to you about this Steve number
19 that you dialed.
20 I believe what you said to Ms. Bach was that you
21 misdialed; do you remember that --
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q -- those questions and answers.
24 Explain that to me. Do you mean like you put in
25 all ten numbers wrong? How does that happen?

275
1 A When I pull up my phone lock, because it's saved
2 by name, it just show the name, it don't show the number.
3 In order for you to see the number, you have to hit the
4 name, and the number pop up. I hit the wrong name, and
5 that number pop up, and I dialed it.
6 Q Do you know whose name you were trying to look
7 up?
8 A At this moment, no, ma'am.
9 Q Whoever you called that is attached to this
10 Steve number, do you remember them answering the phone?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 Q Do you remember Ms. Bach asking you questions
13 about when you left Samantha's house? Do you remember
14 those questions?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Did you leave Samantha's house after an
17 argument?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. After the argument, did Godfrey call
20 Steffon?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Did you also call anybody?
23 A Steffon, too.
24 Q Okay. Did Steffon come and get you?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
276
1 Q Okay. At that point, did you feel as though it
2 was best to not be there anymore?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q After you left Samantha's house, did you have a
5 key to her house?
6 A No, ma'am.
7 Q Why not?
8 A I didn't have the keys.
9 Q You remember seeing at some point --
10 A A key.
11 Q -- a video -- sorry.
12 You remember seeing at some point a video of a
13 man running from a Porsche? Do you remember the burning
14 Porsche?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q Is that man you?
17 A No, ma'am.
18 Q So Ms. Bach asked you some questions about, you
19 know, why on earth would you go with Darrell to this
20 Walmart after everything you had been through with him the
21 last two days; do you remember those questions?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q Why did you go to the Walmart with Darrell?
24 A So I can find out the information, what really
25 happened.
277
1 Q At that point, I guess had you seen some stuff
2 on the news at that point?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Did you think that Darrell was capable of doing
5 what you saw on the news?
6 MS. BACH: Objection, Your Honor.
9 BY MS. PIPE:
10 Q Did you think Darrell was capable of doing what
11 you saw on the news?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q I believe Ms. Bach asked you some questions
14 about the money that you were paid for your van; do you
15 remember those?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Who came up with the figure, $6,000?
18 A Darrell.
19 Q Why didn't you tell him my van's not worth that
20 much?
21 A I wanted the money. That would have been -- no,
22 I wouldn't have done that.
23 Q Okay. Do you remember Ms. Bach asking you
24 questions about a pile of burnt debris out at 51st and
25 Frolich? Do you remember those questions?

278
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 Q Do you have any idea what that burn pile is?
3 A No, ma'am.
4 Q Did you burn anything in that area?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q Do you know everything that Darrell told the
7 police in this case?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Do you know why Darrell -- if Darrell said you
10 burned something in that area, do you know why he would
11 have said that to the police?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q Let's talk about Ms. Ruffin's testimony for a
14 second.
15 Do you remember her testimony that she said you
16 smelled like smoke? Do you remember that?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Do you smoke cigarettes?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q Had you been smoking before you got into the
21 Chevy Cruze?
22 A Yes, ma'am. A lot.
23 Q Okay. Is there any other reason that you would
24 have smelled like smoke while you were sitting in that
25 car?
279
1 A No, ma'am.
2 Q When you were pulled over in your van, did you
3 give Steffon's name to the police?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Why did you give Steffon's name to the police?
6 A Because he have a license, and he can get my van
7 back.
8 Q Okay. Did you have a license?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q Did you think when you gave Steffon's name to
11 the police that he would get in any trouble?
12 A Did I think he was going to get in any trouble?
13 Q Yes. If you used his name.
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q Let's talk about that voice mail after you left
16 Steffon's house, okay?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q The first sentence that we hear in that voice
19 mail says: "Cheryl and them just kicked me out"; do you
20 remember that?
21 A Yes, ma'am.
22 Q Who's Cheryl?
23 A My mother.
24 Q As best as you remember, is the voice mail being
25 left the same day as you were getting kicked out or a

280
1 different day?
2 A The same day.
3 Q Okay. So when Ms. Bach was asking you
4 questions, were you trying to be accurate with your
5 answers?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Were you being a bit cautious with your words?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Why?
10 A Because I know the Government could take your
11 words and twist it and turn it to how it best suits them.
12 Q Let me ask you about the questions you were
13 asked about when you were in New York and you didn't turn
14 yourself into the police in New York; do you remember
15 those questions?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Q Were you trying to turn yourself in in New York?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q Why not?
20 A Because I needed to get back to Maryland and get
21 the lawyer.
22 Q Was there any other reason that you wanted to
23 get back here?
24 A I needed Darrell to come with me with the
25 lawyer.
281
1 Q Why did you come back to D.C.?
2 A To turn myself in.
3 Q And after -- when you were in the hotel, where
4 did you think you were going when you left the hotel?
5 A In Maryland?
6 Q I'm sorry. That was -- yes, in Maryland.
7 A To the lawyer.
8 Q Okay. And where did you think the lawyer was
9 going to take you?
10 A To turn myself in.
11 Q Ms. Bach asked you a lot of questions about kind
12 of your physical state back in May of 2015; do you
13 remember those?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q She asked you whether or not you could overpower
16 people; do you remember those questions?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q Did you ever overpower anyone in May of 2015?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q Did you overpower Savvas Savopoulos?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q Did you overpower Amy Savopoulos?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q Philip Savopoulos?
25 A No, ma'am.
282
1 Q Vera Figueroa?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q Did you ever see them while you were in the
4 house at 3201 Woodland Drive?
5 A No, ma'am.
6 Q Did you have anything to do with what happened
7 to those people?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 MS. PIPE: I don't have any further questions.
11 Mr. Wint, you may step down and take a seat next
12 to your attorneys. Thank you.
13 (Witness excused.)
14 (Excerpted proceedings adjourned at 3:53 p.m.)
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283
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
3 I, Stephanie M. Austin, RPR, CRR, an Official
4 Court Reporter for the Superior Court of the District of
5 Columbia, do hereby certify that I reported, by machine
6 shorthand, in my official capacity, the proceedings had
7 and testimony adduced upon the jury trial in the case of
8 the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA versus DARON WINT, Criminal
9 Action Number 2015 CF1 7047, in said court on the 11th day
10 of October, 2018.
11 I further certify that the foregoing 283 pages
12 constitute the official transcript of said proceedings, as
13 taken from my machine shorthand notes, together with the
14 backup tape of said proceedings to the best of my ability.
15 In witness whereof, I have hereto subscribed my
16 name, this 12th day of October, 2018.
17
18
19
20
21 ____________________________
22 Stephanie M. Austin, RPR, CRR

Official Court Reporter
23
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Daron Wint Cross Examination

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1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

25 Stephanie M. Austin, RPR, CRR (202) 879-1289

3 On behalf of the Defendant:

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Bach .............3

8 Proceedings October 11, 2018 ..............3

3 (Time noted: 9:50 a.m.)

4 THE COURT: Okay. Good morning, ladies and

5 gentlemen. You may be seated.

6 Ladies and gentlemen, before we continue with

7 Mr. Wint's testimony, I just want to advise you that, as

8 you probably noticed, we have had to excuse juror in

9 Seat 16 for reasons completely unrelated to this trial.

10 It is not going to affect the trial proceeding forward in

11 any way. And we will now continue with Mr. Wint's

13 Mr. Wint, if you could just again please stand

14 and raise your right hand to be placed under oath.

15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you, sir.

18 having been called as a witness on behalf of the defendant

20 examined and testified as follows:

21 (Time noted: 9:50 p.m.)

22 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Please be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

2 Good morning, Mr. Wint.

4 Q I'm just going to ask you if you could to keep

5 your voice up a little bit, because yesterday some of us

6 were having a hard time hearing you, okay?

8 Q Just to get a couple things out of the way, what

9 is your date of birth?

13 Q So back in May of 2015, you were 34 years old;

16 Q And in terms of the brothers, you're the oldest,

19 Q And then there's Steffon, right?

21 Q And then Darrell?

23 Q And you indicated that you went to school in

24 Guyana; is that right?

2 system there, did you go through what is sort of our

3 version of high school here in the States?

6 And then you went on to a trade school to learn

7 how to become a welder?

9 Q Okay. Was that just kind of on-the-job

11 A No, ma'am. I -- my step-father was a welder.

12 Q So he taught you how to do it?

13 A He taught me how to weld.

14 Q Okay. And in terms of the welding, you made all

15 kinds of things out of metal; is that right?

17 Q All right. And when you worked at Metal-Fab,

18 you worked there for how long?

19 A About eight to nine years.

20 Q Okay. You made all kinds of things out of

21 metal; is that right?

23 Q And in addition to construction materials, you

24 guys would actually stay late sometimes making personal

25 items out of metal; is that right?

2 Q And that's the location of the business that was

3 at 51st and Frolich Lane; is that right?

5 Q In addition to knowing how to do those kinds of

6 things, you're also really good with numbers; is that

9 Q Okay. You actually really enjoy kind of

10 tinkering around with numbers on computers and stuff like

13 Q You like kind of plugging them in and seeing

14 where they fit in terms of figuring out patterns and

17 Q Okay. And I guess, you also have some street

18 smarts; is that fair?

20 Q So when your brother said to you about unloading

21 a house, I mean, you knew what he was talking about?