Steve Paxton Full Interview Transcript

00;00;01;00 ​Daniel: Okay Steve. Alright so tell me your name and your affiliation with Merce
Cunningham.

00;00;07;00 Steve: Steve Paxton I studied with Merce first probably in ‘58 at the American
Dance Festival in New London, Connecticut and continued studying with him in New York and
eventually decided that he was a very interesting choreographer. It took me a long, long time to
get over my kind of idea of art as portrayed by Hollywood and the popular press and into what
he was doing. But mainly in that first summer I was living in the same house with the company
and I fell in love with them. A woman named Cynthia Steele was in the company at that time
she was Cynthia Stone at that time, I think. Cynthia Stone and Viola used to play Bach
Four-Hands down in the lobby. And Carolyn and of course was a remarkable presence. And
Remy and I became friends. And I just loved the work you know I couldn't justify the work, but I
loved it. And so that was my conflict for the first year that I lived in New York.

00;01;44;00 Daniel: So do you remember... do you remember was there a moment where you
said okay I'm, I accept this that this is something that's substantial that I could.

Steve: I did there was a moment I can...

Daniel: Sorry sorry, do you hear that?

Steve: Yes, somebody upstairs I think.

Daniel: Okay, okay.

00;02;18;00 Steve: So there was a moment in which I accepted the work and the aesthetic. And
first of all it came from having seen a number of pieces and and loving them all. Just, I saw
“Room”, I saw “Summerspace”, I saw “Antic Meet” I mean just for three of my top favorites of
that moment. And I loved the company the discipline and, and extraordinary dancing they were
doing. I realized that Merce had done something heretical by adopting such a balletic look into
his technique. On the other hand he was doing much more than that as well you know he was
doing much more with the spine and, and certainly the phrases that he made for across the floor
and generally his exploration of movement. And so that was a big plus and then there was the
chance procedures, which I just didn't get, but I realized that... everything has to manifest
somehow. I guess that was the turning point that the procedures didn't matter so much as in the
manifestation of them which was what I liked. And so then I accepted the procedures if that's
how it came about and…

Daniel: Did you ever, were you ever privy to the procedures as he was performing them?

00;14;20;00 Steve: Oh, you mean was he making dance, chance dances in front of my eyes?
No, never. No, we got whatever results in class. He would work out his movements during you
know dance classes and then eventually some of them would become choreography.
00;04;46;00 Daniel: Perfect. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about “Summerspace”​, ​because you
were there, you were studying at the that's when he made it in ‘58.

Steve: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, do you remember your reaction when... to each of those pieces when you saw
them or is there anything you can tell me more?

00;05;12;00 Steve: Well I was still in thrall of the, of the popular conception of dance. So
modern dance I mean it had a, it had a kind of, what would you call it, a literary aesthetic and it
so intended to be based on historical events or literary events. It tended to have a hero or
heroine. It tended to have well it kind of scrolling through Limón and Graham in my mind which
is the...

Daniel: It’s like mythical.

Steve: Pearl Lange. Mythical, biblical, historical, political scenario. And the, the dance was used
to illustrate events, and moods, and characters and all of that. So I was totally with that. I mean
that was what I thought it was to see something where, although Merce was always a singular
figure in his work generally it was it was not focused on who was important in the dance the
choreography itself the span of it in the piece was what was presented to us. And that took a
huge amount of defocusing and huge amount of well it changed my, it had to change my
concept that's why it took a year to, to do it you know. I really had to. I think I wrote some place
that I went from, who is that painter who painted beautiful women by Swiss lakes with cliffs and
Greek columns?

Daniel: Something like Monet or,

Steve: No no no no much more pop than that, much more. I can't remember his name right now,
but anyway from that you know kind of thing to abstract expressionism you know in one year is
sort of how I had to go and it was a journey it was I, I really struggled with the Cunningham
aesthetic you know. But basically the dancing, the technique, the dancers, the way they danced,
the feeling of the dances won me over I mean just, just swept me away really.

00;08;39;00 Daniel: And we talked about this before the camera came on, but when Merce was
coaching you did he, did he ever say you had to change your idea of you know it's not narrative,

Steve: At that point I was much more with his, his program.

Daniel: How did he coach you when he was talking, teaching the pieces?

00;09;00;00 Steve: Well he would teach me the steps and then we would rehearse. And I can't
remember many critiques, I can't remember comments, I can't remember coaching as such. I
just remember as always and, and with his work striving to do the movement as I had been
shown it and not to add anything to it, not to bring in my encumbered previous thoughts you
know. Also the other thing that was very interesting about Cunningham was the costumes,
because he toured in a Volkswagen bus and voluminous costumes would have been really
difficult to transport. Well Rauschenberg was doing his costumes at that time and he just made
varieties of leotards and tights. And that he was able to do that so that each dance really had a
different feeling was, it was very light. Just like the touch of all of them very light like nothing was
the focus, nothing was insisted upon it was all much more generalized impression of the work.

Daniel: And he thought that was born out of necessity?

Steve: Yeah. Practicality if you're packing you know six dancers for a tour you know you don't
want full-on Victorian dress or you know I can imagine packing for Limón or Graham would have
been a whole different story. This was minimal, it was minimal approach to costume design.

Daniel: Great. Alright I’m gonna turn this down a little ok because he’s peaking, do you see?

Caroline: Yeah.

Daniel: It’s ok, what are you gonna do? Alright.

Caroline: It’s twisted you have to press it first.

Daniel: You press the, it’s okay I’ll show you later. So can I ask you about some specific pieces
if you remember,

Steve: Sure

00;11;29;00 Daniel: You remember, if you don't you don't. So I guess from, what I understand
“Aeon” was a very strange, very unique piece and a very unique process from what I
understand from Carolyn's point of view at least. I don't really know what to ask you about it
other than can you just tell me…

Steve: Well it was the first piece I was in…

Daniel: Can you say the name of it?

00;11;51;00 Steve: “Aeon” was the first piece that I was invited to be in. I wasn't officially in the
company it was just a one-off at that moment so I didn't have anything to compare it to. I
remember Earl Brown, Carolyn's husband, saying it was a throwback you know looked like a
modern dance to him. And I don't know what Carolyn thought about it we never discussed it. So
yeah I have no way to judge it at all except that it was what something like 50 minutes long
and…

00;00;27;00 Daniel: Do you remember a scene where you're holding Carolyn and Merce is tying
her feet together?
Steve: No, I don't remember that scene.

Daniel: There's a picture I wish I…

Steve: I know I've seen the picture Carolyn has asked me about that picture we need, neither
one of us remembered the event happening in the dance.

Daniel: Oh.

Steve: It seemed to have only happened in a photo shoot.

Daniel: And is there anything else you remember about the dance specifically?

00;00;13;00 Steve: I remember seeing it. Don't know where I saw it. Maybe I was always maybe
I saw it in rehearsal a lot, because I would run out front and to watch what was happening while
I wasn't on. Its coloration was light blue as I remember the costumes were light blue it had a
kind of feeling of sky and had a psyche behind which the dancers crossed from one side of the
stage to the other and it was lit in such a way that they the audience could see the dancers
going through. The women wore wings kind of great Gazi stuff. And yeah, aside from its length
which I think it's title relates to I can't say much about it.

Daniel: Was it episodic? Do you remember?

Steve: I don't know when you learn choreography you learn bits of it at a time you go through.
So I, I guess it felt episodic to me that way, but I don't know quite what you mean by episodic
what, what are you looking…

Daniel: Well I just, what I remember reading about it I don't really know anything about it is that it
was a very sectional section section and something happened in this section it's something
happened in this section so it's a little bit more like “Antic Meet”​ ​then a piece that flows.

Steve: Right I think that's true. Yeah, I think that's true.

00;15;00;00 Daniel: All right. So anything, can you remember anything about “Field Dances”?

Steve: No, I wasn’t in it.

Daniel: You weren’t in it okay. “Story”​ ​you were in?

Steve: I was.

Daniel: All right.

Steve: It was conflicted.

Daniel: I'm sorry, can you just say the name of the dance?

00;15;06;00 Steve: “Story” was conflicted in my mind Merce was giving us some Llberty to
rearrange the movement to do it in different time. Yeah slow it down, speed it up, or to do it in
different places and to repeat things. We weren't given a lot of choice but we were given some
choice and he seemed to have problems with it. So it was unclear to me why we were doing it if
he was having problems with it. I did see some finish film of “Story”​ ​and I didn't like it very much,
but it was better than I thought while performing it. I just found it, I found it difficult somehow. On
the other hand you have a choreographer and whatever they do is what you try to achieve and if
they're changing you know there was the fantastic work of 1958 you know and that's why I
joined the company and then the work didn't stay the same. I, you know, it's like your favorite
restaurant has been taken over by a different family and, and everything changes.

Daniel: Well did you get to perform in some of your favorite pieces from before?

Steve: Yeah “Antic Meet”, “Summerspace”, “Moon” of course seemed to leave the repertory
very soon after I saw it. It was a remarkable dance I guess it's been resuscitated as it. I'd love to
see the resuscitation to see if it still moves me the way it did then. Probably not possible you
know to be moved the way you were when you were first being exposed to stuff, but anyway
yeah I wasn't in that. And didn't you write something about “Suite for Five” when it was, when,
when...

Daniel: I was in it, I was in one of the reconstructions, but I didn't I don't think I ever wrote
anything about it. Maybe I don't know maybe someone else. But did you dance “Suite for Five”​?

Steve: Yes.

Daniel: Okay. What do you remember about “Suite for Five”?

00;18;01;00 Steve: I remember if there's something that's the opposite of stage fright I had it. It
was a sense of isolation and being an extremely small object in a big space trying to fulfill my
molecular duties you know as simply as possible. It was almost a spiritual experience to perform
it. It was, and I don't know why that happened I mean. But just the insistence on just do the
move like you know how is it possible to be a full living human being and isolate everything that
you're presenting to an audience down to one aspect of yourself? I guess the visual, visual
aspect you know trying to do the movement from the inside as clearly as possible and as
precisely as possible. Just a big exercise in delicacy and a sense that some critical nuance will
be ruined if I don't get that precision and...

Daniel: Sorry that’s just wait for that siren. I totally know what you're talking about, by the way.

Caroline: Should I stop it?

Daniel: What’s that?

Steve: I wonder if you did..

Daniel: No it’s coming back.

Steve: How many men were in that dance? One, two? Merce and somebody…

Daniel: Yes, I did Merce. Yeah.

Steve: Oh you did Merce?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah which I actually think probably, I asked him once I said did you, what were
you thinking when you when you danced this role? And he said I was just doing the steps.

Steve: [Laughing]

Danel: It's not true. I just don't believe it for a second.

00;20;23;00 Steve: I don't think he ever just did the steps. I think he was a really smooth and
cainy performer. And some of his solos he was obviously not just doing this to us he was
obviously projecting a character or an energy or something. He was a stunning performer in that
way.

Daniel: Yeah I agree with that. I agree with it everything you just said, so I think was lying to me.

Steve: Well I think he was just no point in getting into it. What was I thinking you know many
things, many nights. I don't know. How can he answer our questions?

Daniel: There was a performer who danced in... he danced in the Night of 100 solos, did you go
to that?

Steve: No.

00;21;16;00 Daniel: No you weren't here. And he said he started talking about how an abstract
drama which is, I've never heard anyone talk about it because we weren't really supposed to
talk about stuff like that, but I couldn't agree more that there's this sort of... do you know what I
mean? Like there is some sort of through line but it's not literal. Is there anything there?

Steve: I do know what you mean. I know, I know I think it's a good phrase abstract drama. Is
that the phrase?

Daniel: Something like that.

Steve: Yeah. I mean that was what ​Rune​ had he didn't know exactly why any of these shapes
were taking place the movement had a big impact on me as a physical body in the audience. I
was swept into it, but I could not have discussed what the drama of it was just that it seemed to
be dramatic. What’s, what was the piece with the satin on the onstage left up at the back?

Daniel: “Travelogue”.

Steve: No, no this was before your time I'll bet.

Daniel: Well that was before my time.

Steve: “Nocturnes”!

Daniel: Oh “Nocturnes”​ y​ eah.

00;00;22;43 Steve: Yeah. No “Nocturnes” what was it saying? You know like it, it's... Merce was
apparently somebody who enjoyed just observing things you know nature and you know I don't
know how I did that in New York but he might he may have gotten out sometimes to see some
nature. But, it was like if you dropped into an alien culture and saw their rituals which I've done
you know I’ve gone to some of the Hopi dances and stayed up all night one time watching
something happen there is no way I could know what the point was. In the one where I stayed
up all night I was watching from behind the family whose house was being blessed with this
ritual...

Daniel: I’m sorry Steve. Can we let this, I’m too interested in what you're saying to have it be
ruined by a siren.

Steve: I don't think it would be ruined. Merce would accept it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Steve: John would love it.

Daniel: John would love it. Oh I have to ask you about John. There's several interviews where
there's their just I don't know if they're interviewing them next to a highway or what just like who
thought that was a good idea?

Steve: John.

Daniel: John. Well luckily because of the Cunningham music, not Cunningham music but
Cage’s music and stuff that kind of stuff doesn't matter so, as much, so I can get away with a lot.
But I just heard it getting loud

Steve: It is very loud. So, where was I?

Daniel: You were talking…

Steve: Oh, oh I was, I was in Hopi-land.

Daniel: Yeah start about if you dropped into an alien.

00;24;48;00 Steve: If you dropped into an alien culture and looked at their rituals and tried to
understand why they were doing what they were doing, why they were costumed as they were,
why they took the time they did. So once I went to an all-night ceremony it was how it was in the
Zuni Reservation a Zuni community and what they did was build houses during the year and
then bless them and then give them to members of that tribe. And when they built them they
didn't floor the living room and in fact they dug it out so that it was shallow pit and the family all
sat around inside that and anglos could watch from, through the windows or else over the heads
of the family. You know so I didn't get a clear look at this thing at all. It was very cold outside, I
have to say, but that was the best way except the windows were steaming up you know so like
then you run around and go through the kitchen and look over the heads and all that. So what
was happening was in the afternoon we had seen on a distant hillside a big fire being built and
these very tall figures standing around it and coming and going and then they made a
procession toward the village and they came into the village and they were extraordinarily
costumed. They, it was like a kind of abstract alligator kind of standing walking alligator you
know walking on its hind legs, big beaky masks. And they came into the village and they went to
their different houses, there were six houses, done that night and the dance I saw was the
alligator it was for him that the floor had to be dug out because the costume was too tall for a
normal house. And, and the beak kind of stuck up in the air or the jaws or whatever they were.
One is at a loss to describe the analogies don't quite work, but they sort of do you know so get
an impression like that. And dancing with a young boy who was probably about eight or nine
and with them was another character who was less costumed with a whip and if they made any
mistakes in the steps, they danced the whole night, if they made any mistake in the steps he
would whip them and that had because everything had to be just right. So this speaks clearly to
me as a dance student in New York you know I felt, not that anybody ever whipped me, but I
have heard of that being done I have heard teachers getting physical with students that didn't
get those steps right. Anyway and I watched all night and it was as though the floor had dropped
out from under me you know. My aesthetic floor, my cultural floor, my some kind of base that I
didn't even know I was resting on really I hadn’t given any thought and here I was in a situation
in which these people had for hundreds or maybe thousands of years been doing this and it
meant something very important to them. It was their ritual you know they're gonna keep doing it
they're, they're a very proud and small tribe and so they can just keep doing what they want to
forever you know. They have their reservation and they have their scene and it's a different
culture. And I left I again that took me days and days and days of trying to reconcile what I had
seen wondering what I had seen you know questioning trying to see it from different points of
view. Very much the same as first seeing Cunningham. It was a different cultural floor you know
different. Maybe no floor, maybe just a net, maybe a bouncing net I don't know. You know
something very different than my... so yeah to come to realize that we have, what would we call
it, expectations or we are formed by what we know what we see you know as we grow up. And
then to encounter something you know like the Balinese you know going to a dance in Bali an
opera really and seeing them go through this there's nothing that I can explain it to you, you
know nothing. And yet ours I guess would be just as our typical modern dances would be just as
mysterious to them unless they've seen a lot of movies, yeah.

Daniel: I think they’re just mysterious to several New Yorkers as well.

Steve: Yeah, well.

Daniel: I wonder, let's see…

Steve: I was never mystified by a Graham dance. I was never mystified by a Limón dance.

Daniel: So…

Steve: In that way.

Daniel: No, because they're not…

Steve: They were dancing on the floor I knew yeah.

00;31;16;00 Daniel: They lay it out for you don't they. Do you, so there's a few things that you
were there for that I think are super important one of which was, were you in ​Winterbranch t​ he
original?

Steve: Yeah

Daniel: Can you talk about “Winterbranch”?

00;31;29;00 Steve: He made it on me you know he always or he often took a person to work
with to get things rolling with a piece so I was that person for a “Winterbranch”. I saw it again at
Jacob's Pillow five or ten years ago. It has changed. It, it was a very fierce dance and scary
dance and I really liked it the original. It was done in a lot of darkness and I don't know the redo
of it I, I didn't recognize it at all. And because I had never seen it because it was so much in
darkness and it seemed comic or amusing as opposed to scary.

Daniel: Well tell me more about the original, like what are some of the aspects of it? So you said
of course it's in mostly darkness…

Steve: Okay so you have darkness you have Rauschenberg lighting which was catching the
dance but in, in darkness you know around it. He made a kind of monster that he pulled across
stage a thing with lights and junk all around it you didn't know what that was they were great at
ambiguity I must say the whole thing of leaving something unfocused or unexplained was, they
were great at that. So I don't know I think anytime you use a lot of darkness on stage you, the
space is, the space of a stage depends on the lighting of course and…

Daniel: I'm sorry it's coming closer.

Steve: Yeah.

Daniel Okay if I just let it pass? That's what it's like filming in New York.

Steve: Busy, busy day in New York.

Caroline: At least this room is one of the quieter of the ones we’ve filmed interviews in.

Daniel: Absolutely. It sounds pretty great.

Caroline: Yeah.

Daniel: I never… one of the, one of the pieces I always wanted to dance but I could never dance
was “Winterbranch”.​ J​ ust wasn't in the repertory when I was there. but it's special. This quite a
cacophony.

Caroline: I’m glad we stopped. The finale.

Daniel: That's incredible that he made, started making movement on you.

Steve: Patience.

Daniel: I know why you moved to Vermont.

Steve: I lived there for 12 years.

Daniel: Here?

Steve: No, not here.

Daniel: Okay.

Steve: There I lived, I lived on the Bowery.

Daniel: Oh well it was a little different too. It was still noisy oh sure.

00;35;26;00 Steve: I lived it at the Manhattan Bridge in the Bowery, so right across that big
Plaza from the big bank in the corner of Chinatown there. It was nice ago a time traffic and
polluted,

Daniel: So.

Steve: Is that quiet now?

Daniel: That's quiet let's go. We were talking about the lighting on a stage.
00;35;50;00 Steve: Yeah. So if you have darkness around the figures it's impossible to see the
space in the same way you know it is, it's almost like a presence around the dancing figures.
And my sense was that it went from being an almost aggressive work into being a very pleasant
work when I saw the later version of it without the darkness. And they... I can see why one might
have made that choice if you wanted a dance to be seen you know as movement and let the
movement speak more, but the mood of it that first, first iteration of it was quite it was frightening
it was a scary dance. It had a mood of infinity and claustrophobia at the same time you know
and it was an accomplishment I think and I in terms of making theater. When it was done at
Lincoln Center and Rauschenberg wasn't doing the lighting I think that they whoever it was that
did the lighting put lights into the eyes of the audience and that got very, a lot of pushback for
that act but I don't think Rauschenberg ever did that. I think his lighting was it was…

00;37;48;00 Daniel: Did, um, can you talk a little bit about the music? The name is like on the tip
of my tongue the composer's name…

Steve: La Monte Young?

Daniel: La Monte Young, yeah.

Steve: Well it was cacophonous and loud and that's one reason it was so aggressive. I can't
remember now if I'm La Monte Young was still the music when I say, is it do you know off hand
is it still the music?

Daniel: Well now when they reconstructed it's exactly what you remember. Or as what they can
do from what you remember. So I think you know…

Steve: So now it's dark again?

Daniel: Yeah, you might have seen an event where they took it extract, extracted it and put it...

Steve: Yeah.

Daniel: Because they would never they would never perform the piece “Winterbranch”​ ​without
all the accoutrements. Like because..

Steve: Yeah, yeah I just thought they had changed it because you know it was too...

Daniel: No, no they probably just put it into an event.

Steve: Probably.

Daniel: Yeah and I've seen that event. Yeah it's totally, it's a different thing.

Steve: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: It’s like well..

Steve: It's very pleasant.

Daniel: It’s lovely.

Steve: Yeah funny.

Daniel: Well do you want to talk about, you don't have to, but because I'm gonna put a pin in the
event thing because you were the very first one weren't you?

Steve: I don’t know.

Daniel: In 1964.

Steve: Well I probably was, yeah.

Daniel: Well that totally was. Do you remember being in a museum and you did an event?

Steve: In Austria?

Daniel: Yeah.

Steve: Yeah.

Daniel: Do you remember anything about it?

00;39;09;00 Steve: I remember that Viola very much did not like it. That's the main thing I
remember because Merce was, one of the events was a kind of class where he was teaching
his movement that we hadn't had before and we were supposed to be learning it in front of the
audience and Viola felt exposed. Anyway, I can understand that and I don't remember anything
more about it. I don't remember what was done or how it was done or…

Daniel: Did you remember at all being for the first time being... it comes decided. I'll ask the
question anyway, but do you remember do you remember at all being in the museum the first
time? It must have been completely different from what you were used to.

Steve: No.

00;40;08;00 Daniel: You don’t remember. So we were talking about La Monte Young and his
music. So from what I understand it was silent for a while for a long time and then suddenly
these two like drills.

Steve: It was silverware in buckets being shaken I think is the source of the sound.

Daniel: Oh.
Steve: But its so jangally very jangally and very loud so it was aggressive and it was hard to
bare.

Daniel: Even for the performer?

Steve: I never had any problem accepting whatever they threw at us, but Carolyn did. Her ears
are probably a lot more sensitive and she also her father had hearing problems so he couldn't
take the Cage volume. Cage was very into volume in those days which made for some amazing
scary thumps and crunches and collapses you know it just sounded a disaster you know kind of
music.

Daniel: Were you there, were you in the event that they did at the Glass House?

Steve: Where?

Daniel: The music was so loud and blew them over that's what Carolyn says.

Steve: No no no.

00;41;32;00 Daniel: Yeah. Okay so we talked about the music, the lighting now do you
remember the movement in “Winterbranch” that there was a lot of that its all falls is there
anything you want to say about that?

Steve: Not really. I know we experimented in the construction with those I don't remember that I
actually I wasn't very much featured in the dance when it came to the choreographer being put
together. So yeah my feet hang I felt kind of a sideman when it actually got on stage.

Daniel: There were three men in the piece?

Steve: It might have been.

Daniel: I think that's right must be. Well so when you're dancing with Merce did you off, like if
Merce especially a piece that Merce was the central figure did you often feel like you were just a
side man?

00;42;29;00 Steve: Yes. I was 20 years younger I was just a dancer. I think there was a real
concern that my ego not become inflated you know by being in a company or something you
know so I think I was a little bit suppressed just in general you know. All these older guys
making sure that I knew my place kind of thing. And it's very clear that nobody was going to take
Merce’s place as the central figure. There was before I joined the company the company was
listed alphabetically and there was a sense of democracy about the company, but it wasn't at all
democratic it was very clearly hierarchical which I think is a very human thing and it didn't bother
me I was bothered a little while about the I think Remy was bothered about the contradictions,
but it didn't bother me very much I it seemed very right that I'd be a you know just... also I was
very young I hadn't been dancing all that long either so I had a lot to learn.
Daniel: And what was the age difference between you and everyone else?

Steve: I was I suppose the youngest when I joined the company yeah.

Daniel: And you said you were 20 years younger than Merce?

Steve: Well I found out how old he was he was 42 at some point where we crossed the border
and I happen to find out his age, but so I was probably about 22 at that time so I just made that
calculation.

Daniel: That’s interesting I can't imagine being in the company when he was a chief in that way
he was always the chief, but that's, that's incredible. And I mean were you there you were there
when “Crosscurrents” was created I know you weren’t in it. You weren't even there? Okay you
had left already. So did we talk, we didn’t really talk about “Antic Meet”.

Steve: No.

Daniel: I don't know what to ask you. Let's just start.

00;45;09;00 Steve: “Antic Meet” was the piece that won me over because it was so comic. I had
not seen a dance that actually made me laugh out loud before. I had not been delighted by a
dance you know a dance’s humor .I don't think many people are even capable of making a
humorous dance you know Katie Litz, Katie Litz had it, Cunningham had it and they had a
similar very light touch but real absurdist way about working with humor. And I I just really
enjoyed it. Being in it I was shown this morning some footage of it I remember very little of it I
think I remember certain steps certain moments. Photographs I've seen made me think that
those are memories, but I'm not totally clear.

Daniel: There was, was there was an acrobatic sort of thing that you did with Merce and I
always thought of you as like as the Cunningham dancer who was probably one of the most
acrobatic Cunningham dancers we had and I was wondering I don't know I guess I've always
made that connection but I guess if you don't remember it that well then it wasn't that
remarkable for you.

Steve: Not really, no. I was, one of the first dances they did I think it was an easy dance for him
to put me into.

Daniel: How did you learn it?

Steve: I really don't recall. I can't really recall the rehearsals. I, I expect he just taught me the
steps and we rehearsed it and you know it was set in stone as soon as soon as possible and,
and we moved on.
Daniel: And you were replacing Remy but did Remy have anything, I know I already asked you
this, but not on camera.

Steve: No Remy left and didn't return to coach me or anything.

Daniel: Are you, do you feel comfortable talking about Remy's leaving the company?

00;47;34;00 Steve: I don't know a lot about it. I know that he was unhappy they were kind of
arguing it seemed to devolve on Remy being bald and or you know having a shiny head and
whether he should wear a toupee or not. That was one thing. The other thing was the
democracy in the company. He was also, he was critical of Merce he was sort of fetching at the
point where, where I knew him and he said for instance Merce generally dances behind the
woman and he never dances with the men. And you know obvious criticisms that could be
made, but who cares? Ultimately who and what difference does it make to the dance you get,
you know? The dance you get is something, always very special. Yeah he was a bright cheery
person in the, in the company. He was a contrast to the kind of withdrawal with which the
women tended to perform. They had a calmer or cooler or you know kind of way of not
influencing the movement with their you know all everything else that they were you know. I
mean sometimes you get into a situation I'm thinking of Viola and Merce and “Crises” where
Viola’s spirit was exposed on some level just such an extravagant duet you know of the
movement in the situations and all of that. But I mean she was never used as she might have
been used as an elegant figure you know wise in humorfull and, and intelligent. She never was
that onstage. I mean “Crises” was much too hysterical and feeling for that kind of thing to show.
Carolyn always just looked like some kind of radical, sleek animal you know and I don't know
why it always worked because she didn't change much as a performer but it always seemed to
maybe the contrast with Cunningham is kind of more heated persona.

Daniel: I think that tradition can carry it on and continue. The women were always a little bit
more straightforward and then men could have a little more of a personality and they didn't
always but yeah I think that happened a lot. Yeah, that's fascinating. Do you remember
“Paired”? It was Viola and Merce right?

Steve: I thought that was “Crises”. “Paired” is another one?

Daniel: So “Paired” apparently was a duet that Merce and Viola did a little bit I think it was
Merce and Viola maybe Merce and Carolyn, but I'm pretty sure was Merce and Voila. Does it
sound familiar to you?

Steve: It does sound familiar and I'm having trouble conjuring it up.

Daniel: What else can I tell you about it? All I know it's from Carolyn's book. Yeah I don't know.
Yeah so that I mean those are the dances for when you were, did you ever see “Night
Wandering”?
00;51;36;00 Steve: Yes, that was Carolyn and Merce right? And it was again one of those
suggestive highly ritualized, very beautiful mysterious something from the north. You know
some... Carolyn was very beautiful in that and what they did together was I remember a
movement she had he was standing behind her and she had her hand in front of her crotch like
this with that kind of…

Daniel: Wait show us again.

Steve: Wait a minute.

Daniel: Let's see your hand.

Steve: No, no.

Daniel: You’re talking about “Suite For Five” though too?

Steve: Let me zip my fly first.

Daniel: Oh. Okay [Laughing].. Okay let's see that hand movement again.

Steve: So her hand was held like this in front of her crotch and I thought it was a you know I was
sex symbol or something one of it bu,t but nothing happened I mean it wasn't the actual event
wasn't anything to do with that so it remained mysterious like a potent, a potent symbol that just
kind of floats in the dance and doesn't you know a reference that you don't know what to make
of.

Daniel: Yeah it is interesting he did do that in “Suite for Five” too. She did something like,
something like that but yeah it's the same thing. So I just I'll show you I posted something an old
video that today I can show it to you. And you talked about “Nocturnes”, I mean did you ever
see “Lavish Escapade”? Did you ever see those old solos that Merce did?

Steve: No I think I've seen photos of it. He's used it in publicity a lot. With a title like that I would
love to have seen it.

Daniel: I know especially with him.

Steve: Yeah, yeah at his peak.

Daniel: And do you remember “Hands Birds”? I know that was a solo for Carolyn she did like
once.

Steve: No.

Daniel: You probably wouldn’t have seen it. And “Gambit”?

Steve: No.

Daniel: So can you talk about your time in Connecticut College? That sounds fascinating to me
with, with Humphrey Weidmen, right? Limón, Graham, is there someone else?

Steve: Pearl Lang.

Daniel: Lang.

00;54;16;00 Steve: Paul Taylor. That first summer Paul Taylor, Pearl Lang, Graham, Limón,
Humphrey and Cunningham plus a lot of really bright students doing work. I was working
backstage doing the pin rail the curtains didn't need to move that much during a dance most
times so I was able to see a lot of dance and over and over you know rehearsals. And yeah that
was I, I guess it couldn't have been a better exposure I was this barbarian from Arizona you
know had had a few years of dance behind me and was there taking classes all day and
working the pin rail for rehearsals and getting not much sleep meeting all these dancers from
the East Coast and getting into the politics of the student. Mine you know liked the Graham
dancers detested Limón and the Limón dancers you know couldn't deal with Graham and, and
Cunningham was off the charts they didn't know what to do with him. Pearl Lang was much
beloved she did a dance that was a little trip to hell and back and yeah. And so I met, I met
dancers my age who were very proficient you know I was still struggling with technique and
trying to trying to grow you know trying to do whatever, whatever what does it take to get your
leg up that high? And you know how do you explain that? And I think that actually started me on
trying to explain my body to myself or bodies you know to ourselves how they work and how
technique works and all of that I think I needed the, the sense of insecurity I had about it made
me analyze it a lot and I think that's what got me into a state of mind for a contact improvisation
could happen much later. Or...

Daniel: I want to ask you about, about that how that came out of, or how that progressed from
your work with Merce or if it didn't. But just put a pin in it because I just want to I'm curious I
talked to Val that she was there with you right? And do you have him do you have any memory
of how the, the biggies as they call them well did you call them the biggies.

Steve: I don’t know what you’re talking about yet.

Daniel: So Carolyn referred to Merce, well she referred to Merce, but Merce and Martha and
Jose and all those people as the biggies. No, you guys you didn't you weren't in on that. Alright.
But did you ever see them interacting?

Steve: No.

Daniel: No. Did, I mean did they occupy the same space ever?
Steve: There were some initiatives to do Broadway seasons together at one point I think about
‘58, ‘59 they were I'm sure meeting together and discussing it but it didn't, I don't think it ever
happened. And at Connecticut College I don't think I ever knew where the biggie's were when
they weren't in a classroom or on stage. They were sequestered in their towers or something.

Daniel: It’s mind blowing

Steve: But it is true that they, they were widely and popularly known you know and and lauded
and praised I mean it was dance it was American dance and America was proud of them and
they were popular. Cunningham was on the cover of some magazine in his “Nocturnes”
makeup, Graham was a figure in a popular radio quiz show she was Miss. Hush and they didn't
get it they it went on Miss. Hush became a kind of national crisis in the quiz show, radio quiz
show business because, the, the contestants were never able to identify her and what she was
considered enough of a popular figure to, to be represented just by her voice. Nikolai was seen
on TV as his dancers, Perry Como I think of all people was intrigued with Nikolai so Nikolai
dances got to us through that show. And they all toured a lot and they, they were all I think
supported by the government in foreign tours, so they had foreign tours. And there weren’t
many of them. Pearl Lang never made it to that stature.

Daniel: Did you dance for her?

Steve: I did.

Daniel: Were you with Gus?

Steve: No. Did you dance with her? Didn't you?

Daniel: You were like, I think you were alternating companies.

Steve: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Oh Lord. Okay so “Changeling”, you never saw “Changeling” then either I’m assuming.

Steve: Oh yes.

Daniel: You did?

Steve: Yes.

Daniel: All right are we…

Steve: That was an incredible solo.

Daniel: Oh wait I'm sorry, sorry, sorry let's start.. okay and will you say the name of this solo.
01;50;51;00 Steve: Yeah. “Changeling” was a solo I saw in the earlier, he was doing it in my
early days before I joined the company I think I don't know if I ever saw it after. I don't think I
ever saw it on tour. It was very stern and very wild in the sense of the persona that Merce
projected and so you can't really say that he was neutral in his own dances you know. He just
“Changeling” is a dance which absolutely relied not only on his dancing, but on his for what he
was pulling out to as a character or something to show us. And I just remember one moment
he's in a fourth position sort of facing diagonal I think his front leg is.. that leg is toward the
audience and the four leg, the back leg you know so he's not on the open side he’s on the close
side of the fourth position you know the one where you don't see the crotch or the dorsal you
know he's his head is turning he had a cap, a skullcap and he his when he would turn slowly he
did this a couple of times in the dance the same figure would come up like a remark that he
might make again later in the evening you know just to make sure everybody's understood the
import. And when he would turn toward the audience he was just chilling it was, he was you
didn't know what kind of person he was. So again this thing of being you know somehow
spooked by a Cunningham dance a lot of it relies on you don't know what you're seeing and in
“Changeling” I didn't know what I was seeing. I don't know what the title refers to I know that the
figure was, was I think it was a Jasper costume works tended to involve taking tights and
leotards and slitting them in various ways you know cutting things into them which he would do
right off stage you know just before it went on. A perfectly good pair of tights would be donned
by Merce and then Jasper would come along with his blade and then finish put the art into the
costume. And the skullcap which was I don't think it was I think the ends of the kind of hung
down like, like ear flaps or something. And, and just yeah just a little bit ragged beat figure some
something some kind of creature that had been to a big apocalypse of some sort and was in a
state of PTSD trying to convey to us what what was happening or what was going to happen or
something. Yeah thrilling.

Daniel: Yeah wait let’s stop for a second.

Steve: I tried.

Daniel: So when you when you were dancing “Suite” with Merce now how would you compare
the way that Merce was in “Suite” versus the way he was in “Changeling”?

01;04;47;00 Steve: In “Suite”... I didn't see it much. I think I saw it before I was in it. I didn't think
much of it in the early days then being in it was that stressed out time of trying to find absolute
purity and in my own messy self you know. And but you know the last time I saw it was in Santa
Fe, New Mexico. I was there for other reasons and the Cunningham company came in and I
knew a few of them we had some meals together and I saw the company they did two nights.
Now what I knew for of the situation was they had just come from St. Louis and suddenly they
were at this very high altitude and so they had oxygen tanks offstage you know for whatever
good that does sick to oxygenate their blood and stop altitude sickness and all of them except
one of the main women had a cold. So there was one oxygen tank for everybody else and one
oxygen tank for her so that she wouldn't get a cold, but anyway the first night they had gotten in
at midnight tonight before they had been of course doing the normal thing rehearsing in the
theater in the afternoon probably and trying to get their breath. And then there was a show that
night and after the show I thought it's a notable company it's a good company you know I'm very
glad it exists. And know that I didn't feel any nostalgia, I didn't feel much after that first show. I
was well one always has hopes you go to the theater you know hopes but they so they were
somewhat fulfilled I think they thought I had seen her an excellent example of a kind of modern
dance that I used to do. The next night was an events night in the middle of the flow that came a
“Suite for Five” moment and I saw this guy and I suddenly felt my body doing the steps that he
was doing or I felt, my body felt his body or something you know it was really weird. I don't know
if I've ever had that feeling again seeing somebody do a role I've done. And I also realized yes
and that's also Merce’s movement that we were both doing and I suddenly had this sense of
triangulation between the three of us you know me and the audience the dancer on stage and
Merce’s movement from ‘52 or whenever it was fifty it's something you know. And...

Daniel: ‘56.

Steve: ‘56? Yeah later than I thought. Anyway and it kind of blew me away it was kind of an
existential like unexpected geometry that popped into my brain. And then it went on and on I
was being more and more moved by the dancing at the end and it ended abruptly the dancers
swept on for a bow, they swept off they swept back on for another bow and they left and the
audience got up and left. Two bows were what said seemed to me a really profound event I
guess triggered by my own you know identity thing that had, had started with “Suite for Five”.
And I realized that I was smiling and I realized also I was crying. And it was I, I couldn't get up.
Everybody else left the theater and I was just still what caught by their performance. I can't
remember smiling and crying at the same time. When on any other occasion you know suddenly
realizing that that's what was going on with my feelings.

Daniel: Do you think it was, do you think it was like a recognition or was it a memory that just
you know just suddenly this memory inhabited your body or?

Steve: It was the difficulty of that dance as I've discussed you know the sense of struck trying to
find something clean you know unsullied Cunningham movement you know seeing somebody
else do it. Having this flip of remembering the sensations see I think that struggle to get it just
right really imprinted the movement in my system. And, and so that was triggered by seeing the
movement I didn't know we were in “Suite for Five” until I recognized that solo. It wasn't like…

Daniel: Sorry. I didn't want to cut you off.

Steve: That’s alright.

Daniel: Interestingly enough I have cried during “Suite For Five” too. The last time I performed it
we did it like seven days in a row.

Steve: Didn't you blog or something?

Daniel: I never wrote a thing. Maybe I wrote something on Instagram or on Facebook that's
possible.

Steve: And, and it was maybe extracted for me or something because I'm not on Facebook, but
something about we're putting it to bed now. This was the last performance, your feelings about
it about its darkness or something.

Daniel: Maybe maybe.

Steve: No.

Daniel: I don't know, but cried I backstage after the first solo and Davison our technical director
came up to me he's like it's okay, you know are you okay? And I was like I'm great. I actually am
so happy I didn't have to dance it anymore. It was so hard, it was ​so​ hard.

Steve: Why was it hard? It wasn't hard movement.

Daniel: It oh, maybe... really?

Steve: Well I don't know. You were doing Merce.

Daniel: Merce was really hard, and he made it harder. Not for the better, you know?

Steve: Okay.

Daniel: I mean, it was, it became almost balletic. Like to a point ... yeah I was ridiculous. So I
guess the one thing I, I would really, the one last thing I would like to ask you about, unless you
think of anything else you would like to say, is how this work either how.. you know what was
your transition from Merce to the contact improv to where you are today?

01;12;56;00 Steve: Well Merce was such an exemplar of a creative exploratory choreographer.
And he kind of left everybody else, including to some degree Balanchine, in the dust. You know
they, they all seemed a little stodgy by comparison. Anyway so I admired that very much. I, I like
that kind of thing. I like extreme thought formation you know, how is it possible? Like Jasper was
once quoted as saying, “I prefer to not know what I'm doing.” You know how is a thought like
that even possible? It certainly has a preference or...

Daniel: John said “as far as consistency of thought goes I prefer inconsistency.” And I said to
Merce, told him that, he said “yes because if you do that other thing you're on a one-way track.”

01;14;00;00 Steve: Yeah, exactly. And so they weren't on a one-way track they were they were
open to something that I think is available for in the East as a thought-form you know. Certainly
John's study of zen and all that would open him up to all of that kind of possibility. Yeah,
possibility. So Cunningham seemed to be writing on not only potential, but the faith that
potential is unlimited that it and as I first figured out it has to manifest somehow and then it
becomes kind of an image you know. It's published it's, it's finished you know it doesn't go
elsewhere after its performed. But the new work there's always the chance that you'll strike into
some new terrain and so I very much admired that. So then trying to figure out what happened
after I left the company I didn't have any plans it wasn't like I which had any offers or even
expectations. And I tried to figure out, well what I figured out was that if my time with
Cunningham was to be of any value I had to figure out how to do what he had done which was
to create new forms, structures, movement that, that that was the way to honor and in some
ways compete you know. At least be a fellow you know to be in, in my own mind a player in the
dance world and so I started making stuff and I spent 10 years studying walking and doing
walking dances. I'm sure they were the low point of every Judson performance that we did you
know they're just no energy, I didn't want any razzmatazz, didn't want any virtuosity I didn't want
any, I wanted them just they just dragged along you know. I mean I’m, I'm still interested in them
and I don't regret having made them, but at the same time I know that they were kind of hard on
everybody. But people you know if it was a group walking dance people would walk for me you
know they just they were fine with it. I think it was a very open period I think people were and
also we had people like La Monte Young jangling silverware and buckets so you know what the
hay? And Agnes Martin another you know extremely controlled situations where the experience
was not supposed to be stimulating that wasn't the aim. So I was, I was I felt okay with that.
After 10 years I thought mmm maybe it's time for a change you know, maybe it's time for getting
out of pedestrian movement. And at that time I had an experience with Douglas Dunn who was
in Grand Union, we were in Grand Union together, and it was a touch duet and we were
following each other and I I just felt like I was intimately in touch with his movement and trusted
that he would follow mine. It was a great feeling of camaraderie in they in the movement
improvised of course. So neither one of us knew which way it was going, but we were both fine
with that. And I thought this is interesting. This has, this feels kind of elemental. And so I worked
on it and tried to figure out how to teach it how a lot of the material of it comes from study of
Aikido which is a movement form which his touch based and martial art and has a lot of
procedures which are helpful in wild and wooly unpredictable movement. You know how to fall
how to what, what the quality of touch, great analysis of the quality of touch because in Aikido
you don't, somebody aggresses against you then you can do. Aikido you don’t do it against
somebody. So it has that receptive attitude and what you do is accept their movement and take
them a little bit farther in the direction they're already going then they meant to go and then
you've got them kind of falling and then you can guide the path of the fall and then you can take
them to the floor or whatever you know. Put them in an arm lock of some short. So it has a
foundation and the idea of Ki. And I don't know exactly what Ki is because they never translated
it, so I had a sensei who not only spoke no English but the word Ki is not translated from the
Japanese. But the way they described it was, it was a flow out your fingertips out your pinky and
ring finger a flow to the end of the universe. I never managed to get that far, but I could imagine
flowing you know you can imagine. And I realized that I could imagine it because we do it all the
time when we point when we indicate something so we you know something is flowing out of my
finger we all know this gesture goes from physical to imaginary to an object or, or an instance of
some sort. And which means that it is not, it's a system which is in it's something that's in your
nervous system which guides the skeleton without much energy. So it's like a pre-emphasis
system it's very light it's… anyway it's very different than what we're or what I always thought of
as dance energy or martial arts energy or sports energy which is more muscular and more,
more about strength and force. This is guidance. And it seems to me very logical that it would
have to be there. That how do we know how, how do we get this to happen before we do this?
You know before the action, how is the, what's a setup for the action? How is that guided? So it
seems to me like that system would have to be there and it's based on image thought maybe
desire in the sense of I want to do something you know that kind of level of desire just casual
need or want. So it gave me a different way to think about how movement constructs itself. And
the other thing is that it emanates from the pelvis. So the Japanese analyze it as being to one
point which is the center of gravity or mass rather center of mass which is in the pelvis. So that
means that your arms don't stop at the shoulder. That means that the arms go down in the back
so when you lift an arm, my arm isn't doing much you know it's not doing much so I don't know
why it's up in the air like this unless something is contracted in the back to kind of lever it up you
know my shoulder blade goes down and it connects to my center of mass which is a kind of
anchor. So that the kind of weights that we are the kind of what, what's a word that means...

Daniel: Like a lever or something?

Steve: Well I do mean a lever, but I'm not sure I know this word but I suddenly see the concept.
If, if you it takes more energy to suddenly lift the arm then to let it just float up somehow that
seems... so what's what's a word that means that difference? The force maybe force is different
with different qualities of gesture and different degrees of movement. So something that's
fundamental they're rising not rising when you, when you, when you project Ki you're supposed
to do it from the pelvis you're supposed to imagine that it starts there comes out these two
fingers, these two fingers because these are the fingers that are connected to the pelvis. These
are the fingers that are connected to the head so that when you're a baby you know it's, it's
more automatic to close the loop and get food to your mouth. And, and for all of our lives easier
to get food to our mouth using a system that is anchored in the head which is another mass
anchor kind of thing. So these two things, so this bone up to the back of the arm underneath
the, the scapula and down the back is the length of an arm. That's what it takes to make an arm
work. A great new analysis. Nobody in dance had ever explained arm to me you know. Yeah it
was great to study more than one movement technique. So anyway that had a lot to do with
contact improvisation except that it was a martial art and I was curious isn't there, don't we have
any games in which there isn't a loser? Why are we so fascinated with winners and losers? And
so I was trying to construct something along those lines. Something where it takes two people to
win. Or even if they lose it takes both of them to do it.

Daniel: That's fascinating.

Caroline: There’s only two minutes on battery.

Daniel: Oh well let's stop for a second . You know I love to hear...
01;27;26 Steve: So I mean it was just by chance that contact improvisation took off the way it
did and has now become a kind of sport event in the world. My relationship to it kind of
degenerated into being asked to teach beginning classes in it for years on end and while I can't
deny the utility of that it was really boring and I, I realized that I lost this edge of creating new
stuff that you know I had taken as the, the Cunningham model that I was sort of lineage that I
was a part of. So I decided to study contact improvisation and derive something from that you
know see what was really there if you kind of analyzed it. Again an analysis you know again that
falling back on that as a way forward when all else fails you know. And started looking at the
spine and made something called material for the spine, I think I first taught it in ‘86. And I sort
of still teach it know you know it's it's an easy teach. It's again gotten a bit boring, but it has
some virtues for me as a teacher and for the students. And it has to do with Ki and using Ki
teaching students to use the guidance system and to see it within themselves. It is done mostly
most of the exercises are floor exercises so you're laying on the floor so there isn't a balance
issue there's only just energy projected and and trying to achieve a certain kind of role or certain
roles that I made a collection of interesting roles and with different principles. That are just
complicated enough or the coordination is just difficult enough that very often it takes people a
while to kind of get it. And then I insist on the kind of, I insist I have no choice, it is the graphics
of it are very clear so if I'm asking somebody to do a spiral role they have to produce a spiral in
their body I have to see a spiral. And if I'm asking them to use Ki they can't be pushing off the
floor in order to get something to turn you know they they have to do it all with Ki. And so I have
very clear parameters for discussion of the movement and that just zips right through the
students and I can you know they can feel and I can see and they can ask and I can tell and the
discussion is very clear. It's very limited, but I think it is good for the spine I think it has a lot of
stuff in it that's useful my spine seems to be holding up so I feel like... well it doesn't prove
anything one example is not proof but it's still interesting that that's the case. Anyway so that all
flowed out and maybe one of the things that decade of walking is something that most people
just don't know how to talk about or think about doing that you know just there I was in my
twenties and I was walking you know, but it has produced it produced the spiral for me you
know after a long time I finally saw that we, we move in as a helix winding and unwinding itself.
And you know I guess I can just say that it's wonderful even if it takes you forever to get to a
basic idea it's wonderful to finally get there and feel like okay I figured this out I, I Jesus figured
something out about the body and…

Daniel: Great. You made it.