John Cage and the Glaswegian Circus: An Interview around Musica Nova 1990

Author(s): Steve Sweeney Turner and John Cage

Source: Tempo, New Series, No. 177, (Jun., 1991), pp. 2-8
Published by: Cambridge University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/945926
Accessed: 30/07/2008 17:08

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Steve SweeneyTurner
John Cage and the GlaswegianCircus:
an interview aroundMusica Nova 1990
We would do the interview in the circle. It was
clearing-uptime afteryet anotherrehearsalin the
Henry Wood Hall, Glasgow, and I was following
a slow-movingJohn Cage of 78 yearsup the stairs
as he embarassingly held doors for me and
explained the tight schedule he was bound by. He
has now visited the U.K. three times in one year,
taking in the Huddersfield, Almeida, and
Glasgow'sMusicaNova festivals,all in the middle
of his usual jet-setting around the world which
occupies the greater part of his year. With such
tight schedules and a time-consuming specialised
diet, it is incrediblethat he grantsinterviewsat all.
His usual answer- based, as ever, in his infamous
non-intention - is: 'because people ask me to!'
Non-intentionality has been his basic aesthetic
position since at least the 1950s, and as I found
out, he's still finding fresh nuancesthere. At least
when he's got the time to sit down at his desk. Why
doeshe do it?
Why do I do it? Well, this trip is the last one until
next June, and it began with the invitation from
MathiasBamert,who I have a friendlyfeeling for,
and so I said 'yes' when he invited me. One thinks
that when one accepts an engagement, there'll be
time to continue one's work, but I more and more
see that that's not the case, and so I will be more
inclinedto not travel,becauseI have less time now
than I had formerly, and it's harderfor me to do
simple things like walk! My doctor says I
shouldn't carry anything heavy, so now I have a
chariotfor my luggage, but thatmeansthatwhen I
come to stairs, I'm confronted with a serious
problem to solve. Also my food takes a lot of time
in preparation.
Whenyou'reon tour,doyou cookall yourownfood,
given the specialnatureof yourdiet?
Mhm. But it's simple - just beans and rice;
vegetables. I've been invited twice here to Indian
restaurants,and I take along a doggy-bag, so I
have beans and rice, and curries.
Do youfind it'sgettingeasiertoaccomodate
yourdieton
tourthesedays?
I think it is easier, yes. Though in Huddersfield, I
became quite ill. I didn't know, actually, what
things to put together, and I got to eating muesli
which had both driedfruitand nuts, mixed in with
the grain, and it turns out that those things are
impossibleto digest together.Did you know that?
So my digestionwas getting very poor. I think I'm
getting along better on this trip than I did when I
was in Huddersfield. But that tour was quite
exhausting, going from one part of the world to
another, Japan and so forth. But as I've gotten
older, I've recognized the fact of where I've
chosen to live as being home. I know the dishes in
which I cook at home, and I know all the plants
that are growing there that I've put around;I feel
at home there. And certainlyI can do better work
there, or more work.
So what have you written recently,in between
touring?
I'm currently finishing the FreemanEtudes,but I
can't take them with me on a trip like this, and I
won't get them done until December, so I've
taken another piece with me which isn't so
complicated. Right now I'm working, I mean
even this morning, on a piece called One7because
it'll be the seventh time I've written for one
person, and I'm actuallywriting for myself to give
a kind of performance when I return from this
trip. When I do return, I'll have almost immedi-
ately to give the performance.So I'm preparingit
now!
Is thisa vocalpiece?
Yes. Now, you see, I vocalise quite a lot; I have
arthritis,so I can'tplaythe pianoanymore,but I can
vocalise without any damage to myself! It could
involve a bit of theatre,objects moving around.I
don't know whetherit will. I also wrote a mesostic
called The FirstMeetingof the SatieSociety.
Is thatan inventedsociety?
Yes,andSatieis the principalmember!It'sa birthday
partyfor him... Everyonebringshim a present,and
the presentsthey bring are mesostics!
Does he like them?

Photo:RogerGordy,Boston, 1988.
Well, he replies. You know - the things he said?I
have a list of the different things he said, and after
eachpresenthe saysone of thesethings,like 'When I
was young, people told me: You'llsee when you're
fifty. I'm fifty. I've seen nothing.
Whatkindof influencewouldyousaySatiehashadon
yourmusic?
I don't know! Because his musicwas so simple and
mine is so complex, so I don't know, but I hope
there's some influence.
So how areyou writingmusicthese'days?Youseemto
use,moreandmore,theflotsamandjetsamof historyas
presentedin a new context,juxtaposedwith
materials,
others.LiketheFolkmusicin RoaratorioandScottish
Circus, or the ariasin the Europeras.
Well, that's one thing I do do now, this Circus
idea, but I'm also using time brackets which are
very flexible and also very large so that there's so
much freedom of space,you know. What happens
happens at a very unspecific time. And it works
just beautifully in relation to the other time
brackets.I'm very pleased with it. And I think my
music has changed.
It strikesmethattimeisperhaps
yourmainconcern
outof
theparameters of sound.
Well, the difference is that the watch gives an
Uhuh, more than pitch, because, you see, time objective, regular second. We don't know what
includesnoise.So thatthatleavesthe fieldopen to all the 'inner clock' does, but it certainlydoesn't give
kindsof sound, ratherthanjust so-called 'musical' you something outside yourself. And when two
John Cage andthe GlaswegianCircus 3
sound. And a few yearsago, I went to Leningradin
Russia,and I met Sofia Gubaidulina,who heard a
piece of mine where the musiciansused watches,
andshe saidshe liked the music, but didn'tlike the
watches,andthatI shouldrememberthatthere'san
inner clock. So, when it's practical,I do remember
that,andin the caseof the ScottishCircus,I'musingit.
I used it also for a piece calledTwowhich is for two
pianos,andtherethe two partsarerelatednot in any
fixed way, but by some kindof'inner clock' thatthe
performers have to use.
Have you stipulatedany timerestrictions
for Scottish
Circus?
One-third musicandtwo-thirdssilence,or halfand
half,somethinglike that.But thenif you, say,had20
people doing that,you'd wantless musicon the part
of each one. Probably,the thing to do would be to
findwhatseemsto be the rightdensity,andhavetwo
factorswhichyou multiplyandthen come out to the
right number.But it's not very fixed, because the
traditionalScottishpieces are also changingtime-
lengths from say three minutesto five minutes,or
they'reone minuterepeatedseveraltimes.We'll see
what happens.The Whisdebinkiesare also going to
do the silentpiece, in a form for a groupof people,
which is not a single group, but which is seven
different people. So they'll come in using not a
watch,but whatwe mightcall 'the innerclock', and
they'llmakethreesilences.Thatis to say,they'llpick
up their instrumentsand not play them.
4'33"doesn't lastthatlong,doesit?So howlong
necessarily
is the 'Binkies'new version?
We don't know, 'cause they're using 'inner
clock'.
Right,so they're on thespot.
just deciding
They won't decide, they'lljust do it. Eachone will
make three silences,and leave the performingarea
after the third silence. They'll come in, also,
individually,not as a group, and when no-one is
there, they'll have finished. I think it might last
somewherebetween 5 and 10 minutes,ratherthan
4'33".
Right,butit'snevertheless as 4'33".
beenprogrammed
Yes, David Tudoronce said that he saw no reason
why a piece called 4'33" shouldlast 4 minutesand
thirty-threeseconds.
Quite! So how do you see the difference in termsof
organizationbetweentheideaof the 'innerclock'andthe
ideaof divisionbyseconds,
anddivisionbycrotchets?
4 John Cageandthe GlaswegianCircus

people are doing that together, it becomes
probablytwo differentpoints, not a single point. I
don't know, but that's what I think!
So it's afairly recentdevelopment
in yourwork?
It's current!
going to happen is something which you don't
have in mind, and you just might discover
something.
So in a way, it's likeprovidingstumblingblocksfor an
improviser.

Do youseeyourworkasprogressing You could say that, yes; making it impossible to

througha sequence
just do what you already know.
of differentperiods?Becauseit couldbe saidthatwe're
seeingyoumovefrom,initially,metric,through objective Discoveryis still veryimportant
to you then?
timeschemes,throughthesetime'windows',uptoa kind
It is. My work is experimental,almost always. I'm
of subjectivetime.
still doing that. Ijust look to discover somethingif
I'm not sure that it's different - when I get a new I can, rather than reassert tradition. I think the
idea, or what I think is a new idea, I discover very people who are reassertingtraditionare involved
shortly that it's a repetition of an old idea. For in speaking,or communicating,andthey're not so
instance, in working with flexible time-brackets, involved with sound. I think of myself as not
an action can be made within a particularperiod being mummified, as one of the critics put it, but
of time, and the end within a particularperiod of as though I'mjust as alive now, and will be until I
time. And while I think of it asbeing new, it's hard die, as young people who are alive. So that the
to say that it's different from the rhythmic ideas I have now are not out of date, but are partof
structurespreviously. the date.So I have no feeling towardsconservatism,
but always to making some kind of discovery, so
With the 'internalclock'idea,is it not a dangerthat
is I I'm
desiresand intentions,which you're normallyvery that there still discovery in the air. think
not the only one with that spirit.
outspokenagainst, will actuallyprevail on precise
timings,andeven leadto someonechoosingto actat a Do youfind it'sgettingeasiertodiscover things,ormore
certainpoint tofit in with somebody else at the same difficult?
time?
It's getting easier.I can now write quite quickly.
Uhuh. It's a very interesting problem, and I
Is thatbecauseof methodology thatyou'veadopted?
haven't yet come to the end of it. I don't know
what to do about it, but I'll keep doing a few No. I think it's because of my age.
things until I come to a conclusion. In whatsense?
So howfar areyou towardsworkingit out? In the sense of being 78! For instance, I used to
I don't reallyknow! I rememberMorton Feldman search for ideas, but I don't any longer.
wrote some pieces in which three pianos were all So if you'rediscovering
morethanyouusedto, butdon't
playingthe same material,but each one at his own lookfor ideasany more,whatwouldyou say it is that
speed. And I happenedto be one of the pianistsfor you'researching for now?
a performance in Berlin, and I played so slowly
that I was left behind the other pianistsfor quite a I think it's coming close to harmony.You can hear
long period.ThatstoppedMortyfrom ever writing that in my piece called Five.
that way again! So something like that might How couldit bedescribed
as movingtowards
harmony?
happen to me, that would oblige me to change.
But I'm looking now to the possibilitiesof letting I wouldn't describeit, I'djust do it. It wouldn't be
the clock be 'inner', rather than objective. a harmonythat has laws - tonic, dominant;but it
would be a harmony that includes noise.
It seemsto makethingsmoreflexible in somesenses,
becauseit's verydifficultto counttimeaccurately and A lot of composers are now speakingabouttryingto
subjectively.Thatreduction of precisionmustappealto recover rather
tradition, thandiscovernewdefinitionsperse.
you,buttheproblemof a kindof improvisation remains, How doyou view thatyourselfas a wayforward?
and you're normallyagainst what people mean by
It's more like Stravinsky- I've tried to make a
'improvisation', becauseof its involvementwith the
discovery. I think of historyas remainingthe same
performer's taste,memory,andso on. all the time; having a richnessof differences in it.
Now I've found ways of improvisingwhich keep Isn'tthatwhat'sreallytrue?Thatwe don't all go to
people from doing that. They are thingshaving to the left and then to the right, but that while some
do with time, and pitch. If you give yourself a of us are going to the left, some are going to the
period of time in which you could make, say, one right?Don't you think all of those things coexist?
sound in a certain field of pitch, say, then what's People so often mention the '60s, the '70s, the '80s
 John Cage andthe GlaswegianCircus 5

- I don't know why it should be in tens! That's

ratherlazy. People tell me that there's an interest
in conservatism now. I take it that conservatism
means 'speaking'. At one point I made a kind of
distinctionfor myself between music that 'speaks'
and music that 'acts', or does something, and I
prefer things that do things ratherthan speak, and
so much music does speak.
Whenyou talk of musicwhich 'speaks'- intentional
music- do you meanthat it actuallyachievesorjust
mistakenlyattemptsspeech?
Well, for the person who uses it to speak, it
speaks, I'm sure. In his programme notes, James
MacMillan,for instance, tells us what he succeeds
in doing, doesn't he? He says, 'this is very
convincing'! So if you have that intention, you do
everything you can to make it heard. It seems to
me, that if you're going to speak, then you should
speak. So words of some kind are important.
Wouldyou say thatmusicwhichspeaksactsby default
anyway? Photo: WolframEder, Germany1990

No, when I say act, I mean something else. I mean

that a sound by vibratingdoes what is its natureto I do that? This morning, I knew perfectly well
do: it acts like a sound, instead of acting like a what I should've done. I should've interrupted
word, or something that it isn't. It acts like them and explained to the audience that the piece
something that it is, which is the vibration. So I was not being played correctly, then told the
said towards the end of my talk, 'we don't know players what to do. They might not have under-
what music is or could be, but we imagine that it stood, though, and certainly they were rehearsed
could be paying attention to vibratory activity', to do it incorrectly. Whether I would have
and that'snot such a slight thing to do. According succeeded, I don't know. But I know that I should
to Immanuel Kant, in the Critiqueof Judgement, have interrupted them.
there aretwo thingsthatdo that,thatdon't need to
takeyourpiecesfor vacuous
I've oftenseenperformers
have anything else at their basis in order to move
us deeply, and that is music, and the other is jokes.
laughter. Those two things can move us very I guess music has a good deal to do with one's
deeply, simplybecausethey changetheirvibration. mind, and if you get the idea that something's a
joke, it's hardto change it. The reasonit's ajoke is
I find it interestingthatyou mentionKant'sbookon
because it's not like anything else that they do. I
aesthetics,given your usual preferencefor eastern
mean, for them, that's why it's a joke. A Dutch
ideas.
musician once told me that when you have a
Mhm, it's welcome to know that it's quite hundred people, which is what you have with an
profound to listen to something which has orchestra,it's hard to change that many people's
nothing at its basis! Which is an oriental idea: minds.You might be able to changea few of them,
nothingness, Nirvana, etcetera. but you can't change all of them.
How do you reactwhen performers play your work Whatwouldyousaytheperformer's are?
responsibilities
without committingthemselvesto a conscientious
I don't know what to say... What I've done is to
accordingto the rulesyou'veset for the
performance write music, and what I hope is that it will be
piece? played as it is written; where there are freedoms,
Well, last night, Five was played incorrectly. I the freedoms are taken there, ratherthan every-
didn'tenjoy it. I'll tell you frankly;I was unhappy, where. When one writes music, one writes sounds
and even disturbed.It was actuallyimprovising - and absence of sounds on the part of that player,
it had nothing to do with my work. I know what and when they don't pay attention to those
Karlheinz Stockhausen would have done; he differences, then it doesn't seem to be something
would have shouted 'STOP!' Now why wouldn't thatyou want. On the other hand, you can't speak
6 John Cageandthe GlaswegianCircus

of their responsibilities. I mean to say that any English; I think the name is English. So, as an
responsibility that anyone has is either followed Englishman,I wish I were Irish!I think I have a bit
or not followed, and very frequently, it's not of Scots blood, though. I'll sound very inconsist-
followed. For instance if I'm cooking, I might ent now, but those thingsarebound up with a kind
burn something; all sorts of things can go wrong, of social past, ratherthan the past of individuals,
and for different reasons, so you can speak of and you know that I'm devoted to the notion of
responsibility,but you don't always get a perfect individuals, rather than' society, but I'm often
result. One of the things, actually, that is specific inconsistent; I like this social tradition of music.
about music, about the performanceof music, is As far as the idea of individualsgoes, I like them
that social situation;even if it's a solo, it involvesnot so much when they're expressing their
an audience, so that it's got to do with the feelings, as when their work is ambiguousto such
interaction of people, too. That doesn't happen an extent that they leave room for the listeners to
with painting;the artistcan finish his work in his make up their own minds about what they're
own studio, completely. hearing. Which isn't the case, of course, with
traditionalIrishor Scottishmusic. You see, when I
Yes,the actionbetweenmakingandreceivingis cutoff
said that I didn't want to come to the ceilidh, that
there.Thissocialaspectto musicseemsto beparticularly
was because of the fixity, or finishedness of
broughtout in yourpiecessuchas Scottish Circus, traditional
music;it doesn't leave anythingfor the
wheretheperformers areall independent of eachother. listener to do, except enjoy it, not in his own way
Right. That's what you might call my 'political' very much, but in the way of the whole society, so
attitude;toward society in general. I don't vote. I to speak. But it is fun. I used to go and hearJoe
don't like the idea of a bigger number of people Heaney singing in a bar on 14th Street in New
winning. Thoreau didn't vote, either; he was York; he lived in Brooklyn, and he sang in my
opposed to democracy, and so was Schoenberg. Roaratorio. He's dead now, but Mick Broderick,
He thought it was a very poor idea. You see, he who sings in the Whistlebinkies, knew and
objected to quantitybeing the controlling factor, admiredhim. I like MickBroderick'ssinging, too,
rather than intelligence. and Judith Peacock, who also sings with them.
They don't sing sentimentally, nor did Joe
It soundslike that couldbe an almostNietzschean
Heaney; they sing straight,and with some kind of
Schoenberg! Haveyoueverhadanyproblems aboutyour
dignity. It's that quality of people doing their
politicalideas? work well that I admire.
No, and unlike Thoreau, I pay my taxes, not I'm
surprisedto discover
yourinterestin yourgenealogy,
because I admiregovernment, but because I want
becauseit's anotherfacet of tradition,surely?
to go on with my work and not be disturbed. In
my writings, I speak against government, and Well, that's what we are in the United States - if
every now and then, against the government of we have any pastthat'sback farenough, we like to
the United States. Once, the U.S. government find out what it was. If we just came from France,
thought that my music was oriental, so when they or just came from Czechoslovakia, we'd know
were fighting the war in Indonesia,they took my perfectly well thatthat'swhat happened,but if we
ThreeDancesfor two preparedpianos andbeamed didn't, then we wonder where we did come from,
it towardsBali to explain to them that we love the you know? I've even thought that my grand-
Orient! I wasn't paid for it, and I was poor, then. I mother was partly American Indian. Her name
didn't know where the next money was coming was Minnie, and we always thought it was short
from. I look forward, as Buckminster Fuller did, for Minnie Haha! She had long black hair, which
to the removal of the 153 sovereignties, and the never turned grey; even when she was about to
approachto the world as a whole, andthe solution die, she was still just jet-black hair, just like an
of problemsthat confront all of us, which are now Indian,and it fell from her head right to the floor,
very serious. I was delighted I could drink and it was quite amazing.
cook with the water here in Glasgow. In New
Do you think that this Americandesiretofind their
York, I have to buy water in which to cook. It
European or otherrootsis actuallyan expressionof a
seems to me we should recognize that as the real
nationalparanoiaaboutbeingAmerican?
problem, ratherthan continue letting our leaders
fight one another. Oh, yes, and a certainguilt, if you like, about our
treatmentof the Indians.Now to that,andour sort
Youoften say thingsagainstthe idea of nationsand of mediocre solution of the
Blacks, we add our
traditions,butyouenjoyandworkwithCeltictraditional
policeman attitudetoward the whole world - it's
music.Why'sthat? terrible! I should think sometime people will get
It mustbe in the blood. Unfortunately,I'm largely angry at the mere sight of us!
 8 John Cageandthe GlaswegianCircus:

in Scotland,withtheN.A.T.O. nuclear
Well,certainly had done, and brought himself close to the
submarine basesjustuptheClydefromGlasgow,andin grave!
the Forth,oppositeEdinburgh, it explainswhy there's
Given yourpredilection
for non-intentionalityandso
such a strongnationalist,and anti-American feeling forth, doyou haveany desiresor intentionsaboutyour
here.Did you knowaboutthe bases?
own death?
Really? That's terrible, that's really awful. But Well, I don't reallysee how I can, becauseit's not a
that's plain stupidity, dangerous stupidity! decision that I will be taking. It'll happen
So they want Scotlandto become independent
regardless of my desires and intentions. I'll just
from Englandto be equal in Europe?That should have to accept it however it happens.I wonder if I
be done, I think. As long as there are nations,but I will...
wish there weren't so many nations. Or I mean
that I wish that whole idea would disappear. It AreyouplanninganymorepieceswhichuseScottishor
doesn't show signs of doing that yet, except in Irishmaterial?
commerce and economics; Coca-Cola doesn't I might, but I'm not, actually. The next piece I
care about the boundaries of any nations. may write does have to do with an Irish subject,
On theotherhand,itcanbeargued another but it's not IrishIrish;it's out ofJoyce, andit's for a
thatthey'rejust
festival in Switzerland, where his work and my
facet of Americanculturalimperialism.
own work will be the subject of the festival.
Yes, but it's the same with other things, such as They've asked me to make a piece about Joyce
Frenchwine; they don't care about the difference thatconnectshim with Zurich,where he died, and
between two nations. And Glenfiddich can be where he didn'twrite his last work, which was to
anywhere!That'sthe saddestthing for me -finally follow FinnegansWake.It was to be, some people
to come to Scotlandandnot be drinkingat all. But imagine, on the subject of ocean, because
if I did drink,you see, I go to excess in most things, FinnegansWakeis about the river going to the sea.
Ijust drinktoo much. They sayit's very dangerous So my work would be called Ocean, and I don't
for someone who's given it up to have even a think it would have specifically Irish elements in
drop. He's very apt to give up giving up, then, and it, but it would have the ocean elements in it. I've
with pleasure, so it's better that I don't! Now I been told of an oceanographic institution in
don't miss it, really, but it's just strange to have Baltimorewhere I could go andhear manysounds
loved it so much and to be where it is... but we can of the ocean, which I would probably combine
say that it's everywhere! There's no place where with instruments,using this kind of harmonythat
single Malt doesn't flow! I call AnarchicHarmony,that can include noises.
So, givenyourstrictadherence to the macrobiotic
diet, You'vesaidthatmusicusedtobein a situationofchoosing
howdidyou rationalize your taste
for Whisky? Because betweentwostreams- Schoenberg or Stravinsky- and
to the extentof comingfromgrains? now we'rein a situationof deltamovingout towards
it's 'macrobiotic'
ocean.So is thispiecetryingtoachievethatnextstate- of
Actually, I thought in those terms, yes! And I also
ocean?
thought that when I drank Guinness in Ireland!
Isn'tit said to be 'good for you'?But actually,I'm Yes, I must say, it is in my mind, but I haven't
afraidit isn't! Seaumas,the Uillean pipes playerin thought of it in that context, and I don't think I
Roaratorio,is dead now - he drank too much would make that explicit. I mean to say that I
Guinness!He could hardlyrecord for me; he had wouldn't make the river, and the delta, and the
to go to the toilet all the time! Then Joe Heaney ocean; I'djust stayin the ocean! Maybe evaporate
died, too. He wasn't drinking any longer, but he a bit!