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1/2/2020 Nicholas Britell, Kathryn Bostic and the Composer Roundtable | Hollywood Reporter

"You Have to Need the


Music": Nicholas Britell,
Kathryn Bostic and the
Composer Roundtable
by Kevin Cassidy
November 27, 2019, 7:15am PST

 

Michael Abels, Hildur Gudnadóttir, Alberto


Iglesias and Alexandre Desplat join the
conversation on the biggest musical challenges
they faced last year and why composing for film is
more like being a nurse than a doctor.
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It turns out that when you put six accomplished composers in


a room and ask them how they conjured some of the best

film scores of the last year, they can't fully explain where the
music comes from. That might be why there was plenty of
talk of magic at the 2019 edition of THR's annual Composer

Roundtable. In fact, calmly embracing the unknown was a


consistent theme. For Hildur Gudnadóttir, 37, that meant a

moment of inspiration that felt like a "lightning bolt" while


she composed the score for Todd Phillips' Joker. For Kathryn

Bostic, 52, it meant producing delicate, ambient "textures"


that wouldn't overpower the intimacy of Chinonye Chukwu's

stark prison drama Clemency. Nicholas Britell, 39, came to


David Michôd's period drama The King with a trial-and-error

approach that has served him well on previous projects like

Barry Jenkins' Moonlight and the soon-to-be-iconic theme to

HBO's Succession ("I don't know how to do this without


experimenting," he says). Collaborating with Jordan Peele for

the second time, on Us, Michael Abels, 57, says he prefers not

to overanalyze where inspiration comes from: "I need for it to

be exciting, magical and unknown." Similarly, Spain's Alberto


Iglesias, 64, working with Pedro Almodóvar for the 11th time,

on Pain and Glory, says he is consistently surprised with what

he comes up with when he is "not thinking." But for veteran


composer Alexandre Desplat, 58 — a two-time Oscar winner

(2014's The Grand Budapest Hotel and 2017's The Shape of

Water), once again in the conversation this year with Greta

Gerwig's Little Women — the magic of composing is secondary


when you have a deadline to meet: "I just do my job." The

composers came together Oct. 25 to discuss how they fell in

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love with music, the biggest musical challenges they faced


during the past year and why composing for film is more like

being a nurse than a doctor.

How did you first discover your love of music?

KATHRYN BOSTIC I started playing piano when I was 3. My

mother was a classical pianist and composer and also a


wonderful singer, and she would play for hours. Just

everything from Chopin études, Bartók. I would listen to her

throughout the house and just knew this was something I

wanted to do. I started playing the piano and writing my own


little songs.

HILDUR GUDNADÓTTIR I have an actually pretty similar

story. Everyone in my family were musicians. So it was the


normal thing to do in my family — to play music with them. I

had never really thought about it, I just thought it was

something you did. So I started playing the cello when I was


4. My mother had a very strong intuition when she was

pregnant with me that I would be Hildur and I would be a

cellist. I chose that instrument when I was 4 completely on

my own accord.

NICHOLAS BRITELL She was right.

GUDNADÓTTIR Yeah, exactly — she was. I was kind of

questioning that my whole childhood, but, when I was in my

early 20s, then I knew, "Oh, OK, she was right. This was

actually the right decision for me."

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MICHAEL ABELS My grandparents weren't musicians, but

there was a spinet piano in all the other farmhouses. And


what I got out of that as a kid was that playing music is

something you did. There was a TV in the living room, and

there was a piano in the living room. Like they are of equal

entertainment value. So I asked to take piano lessons. When I

discovered I couldn't just play "Do-Re-Mi" when I wanted to, I

said, "Why does it sound bad?" And [my grandmother] said,

"Well, you have to take lessons." I said OK, I wanted to. So in


that way I was self-motivated. But there were times when I

did not want to practice, and they weren't having that. They

forced me. And I think that's the right thing to do. Things that

people learn at a young age — it just kind of soaks into their

DNA.

BRITELL I started playing the piano because I saw Chariots of

Fire. I was so obsessed with that theme. We had this old

upright piano, so I went over to the piano and just tried to

figure it out. I asked my mom for piano lessons. And the

other thing was, at that time we lived on the West Side of


Manhattan and I went to school on the East Side. Every

morning my dad would drive me to school. He is not a

musician, but he loved classical music. So every morning we'd

listen to one of the classical stations and I would be listening

to, like, Beethoven and Mozart. And I remember being 5 or 6

and there was almost this game of "Oh, is that Beethoven? Is

that Schubert?"

ALBERTO IGLESIAS For me, I started with music later. It was

my own decision at 9 or 10. My family, we listened to music

but we didn't have family musicians. But one of my uncles


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was an organ tuner. And once he showed me that he was

rebuilding a big organ. A romantic organ. And he tuned the

organ by mouth. Pipe by pipe. That amazed me, this

grandiosity. When I started with the music, for me, it was


because I wanted to be alone. I lived with my brothers in the

same room. So the way to be alone was to be playing the

guitars.

How old were you when you wrote your first original

composition?

IGLESIAS Maybe 16. It was for the guitar. I was also studying
piano. But [I preferred] guitar. I was very fascinated by

[Heitor] Villa-Lobos and the South American composers who

did a lot of work for guitar. It has been always a discovery. I

try to give my kids this impression that you have to discover

[music] by yourself.

And you have to need the music.

ALEXANDRE DESPLAT It took me a while to find the

instrument that I liked, that would become my instrument.

Because an instrument is an extrapolation of your own body,

but also of your soul. I started piano like my sisters. After one

year or two, I didn't like it anymore. Then, because I like

trumpet, I played the cornet. When you are 7, you can't play

trumpet — you play cornet. And something didn't go well.


The teacher was too hard. Too rough. Suddenly, there was

this instrument, the flute, that I could immediately play. It was

just … obvious. This instrument was made for me.

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What was the biggest hurdle you had to get over on the

projects you worked on this year? Was there an "aha"

moment? Do moments like that even happen?

GUDNADÓTTIR Joker is actually one of these projects that I

didn't have a lot of hurdles. (Laughs.) It was such a beautiful

collaboration, that also started very early on. I started writing

the music just after reading the script. So I started writing the

music long before they started shooting.

Did Todd Phillips, the director, have a strong sense of

what he wanted?

GUDNADÓTTIR He didn't really give me any very specific

instructions or directions. He just wanted to feel what I felt.

So I started writing the music just based on what I felt. That

was really the biggest "aha," and it was like — it was actually

probably the strongest "aha" moment I have ever had in my


life. It was more like an aha lightning bolt. Which definitely

doesn't happen all the time. But I responded really strongly

to the script as I read it. I really felt a lot for the character. As I

sat down with my cello, I could really relate so much to what

[Alexandre] was saying about the instrument — because the

cello is my instrument. It's a way for me to express myself

much better than I could do with words. So I am sitting there

with the instrument, trying to find my way into [Joker's] head.

And as I found his notes, it was really lightning — struck by

lightning. I was like, "This is his voice! This is his voice! This is

what he wants to say."

It was the theme itself?

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GUDNADÓTTIR Yeah, the theme itself. So this was the music

that I sent to Todd. And then when I started getting the

dailies, the first one I got was the bathroom gun scene, which

is the moment where Arthur kind of transforms into Joker.

Joaquin [Phoenix] told me a few weeks ago that he had been

having a bit of a hard time finding the right way to get into

the transformation. So Todd started playing the music.

Joaquin just reacted to it. And this scene wasn't in the script

at all.

The bathroom scene came about because of the music?

GUDNADÓTTIR Yeah. This dance that he does during that

scene, it didn't exist in the script and it was never supposed

to be there. But apparently for Joaquin that was really kind of

the key shift to become the Joker. So that was his "aha"

moment, and it was just so logical because this was exactly

what I had felt when I had written the music.

BOSTIC On Clemency, I was fortunate enough to start the

process with the script as well. But I will say that the edit the

film ended up with had no music at all. There was no tonal

reference because of the nature of the film. So with the music

it took me a long time to find the tone. At first it was going to

be vocal textures to sort of reflect the voice of the Alfre


Woodard character, Bernadine. And then the sparseness was

so important in terms of the tonality that even one note at

times was off-putting to the director because you are

listening to silence virtually for two hours. Finally we found

the tone, which is the ambient kind of textures of that

environment, of the prison and also the pulsating nature of

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Bernadine's character. So I wanted to capture that, but I did it

in very sparse, sort of pulsing tonal moments.

Clemency and The King seem similar in that the music is

deployed very efficiently. Is it hard to write music that

you know has to be very effective in short bursts?

BRITELL On The King, actually, I came on after it was already

almost fully edited. I saw an entire cut of the movie with no

music, nothing. It was just blank. And so I had some initial

instincts, but the question is, "Where does the music go?" And

how do you deploy it, like you were saying. I think the big

question is this question of "What?"

BOSTIC That's it.

BRITELL Like what is the music? It could be anything. The

interesting thing is figuring out the sound and where the

music goes and how this happens is … it requires such close

collaboration. Because there is an infinite number of possible

ways to do it. But the big challenge was actually that David

[Michôd] is based in Australia. They were doing all the post in

Australia. So I started experimenting with some ideas in New

York. What was really the challenge was trying to figure out a
way to find this feeling and then looking for it, but doing it

from an incredibly long distance. What I learned and what

really came true is that we found we had to be together. So

David came to New York, and we spent this really wonderful

period of time in July where we just dove in. It was kind of like

a fever dream almost, but we figured out all these ideas

together and found a sound.

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How much should the audience be aware of the score?

DESPLAT As much as they are the beauty of the photography.

Or the playing of the actors, the performances. It's a whole.

You should be able to analyze the movie when you watch it.

And at the same time, take it as one object. I can't watch a

movie where the actors are great and the photography sucks.

It's a combination of magic. All these incredible moments


come together. Because there is a director that brings all

these things together. I don't believe that the music shouldn't

be heard. The music should be at its place — at its right place.

BOSTIC Yes.

DESPLAT Sometimes you have the necessity to be loud. Or

very soft where it should be soft. It's as simple as that.

Is avoiding cliches a concern, especially when working

within a genre? Michael, is that something you're aware

of when working on a horror film like Us?

ABELS It's more about "What am I trying to say?" Jordan

[Peele] really loves music that sets most people on edge. That
lights him up. So I know I am being invited to just do crazy

things. I am writing in an environment where that's going to

be applauded and accepted. I get to have this fun sandbox to

build it in.

What if you're not working with that kind of freedom?

What if you're in a situation where it's less positive or

encouraging?

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DESPLAT I've been pretty lucky to work with directors who

were quite influenced by Eurowpean cinema. So they were

open to different ideas. I think [a bad situation] has

happened once. But it did not occur before I went to the

theater and I watched the film. Before that, everything was

fine. And then I saw the film and there was no music.

It was taken out completely?

DESPLAT Kind of …

GUDNADÓTTIR Really? Oh no. And they didn't tell you?

Did you ever get an explanation?

DESPLAT You don't need any. (Laughter.) You just move on.

What are you going to say?

But how can that happen? Aren't you always working in

tandem with the director?

BRITELL I think to some extent it depends on where in the

process you are. I remember on Moonlight, I would work very

closely with Barry [Jenkins]. And I would send things to Joi

McMillon, one of our amazing editors. She was actually one of

the people who took one of these pieces and put it in a

certain place. I think it depends on how closely you're


working with the team. A lot can change in the very end when

you are at the final stage. That's the first time that all these

elements are actually coming together in one place with the

sound and sound design, the mix, the music, final picture …

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How much does the overall sound design of a film impact

what you do?

BOSTIC In Clemency, it was quite impactful for me. Because

the use of the sound design was very essential for me in

keeping the honesty of that environment, that prison

environment, with the routine of the inmates walking and the

metal doors clinking and the reaction of family members

watching loved ones on death row. So I wanted to make sure

that I could get in different textures. Because the film is so

visceral, I had to really be sensitive to not having the music

overstate the emotional groundswell that [the characters] are

going through.

Music is so subjective — how do you know that what

you've written is going to have the desired effect?

DESPLAT It's how the music vibrates with the film. The

moment that the music follows the storyline and draws you

into the film, or helps you explode with emotions or keeps

you tense or whatever it is — it's quite a craft more than


anything. You need to experiment. Because you can have

great, fantastic ideas when you read the script, and then

comes the movie and it doesn't work. Because the movie is

the guide. At that moment, only the movie decides.

Sometimes you try something and it just comes back, you

know, like a boomerang. I wish there was a rule. But no.

What do you mean by "how the music vibrates"?

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BOSTIC Sound is vibratory energy in music and in tones. And

in certain notes, when you hear them at intervals — I don't

want to get too scientific about it — but it's a very empathic

kind of interaction. It's a sort of a sonic conversation that's


triggering something instinctual in you once you hear it.

Everyone is different, but it is definitely a vibratory response.

And generally speaking, you know what those vibrations


are going to do to the viewer?

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BOSTIC I don't. I don't necessarily from my point of view

think, "OK, I am going to trigger this in a viewer." I mean,


obviously we have certain genres or parameters of emotional

direction that you are supposed to capture, but for me it's


very organic. And I think in that is honesty. I just don't

second-guess it. It's like breathing for me. It's natural. If I start
second-guessing breathing, then I'll asphyxiate.

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BRITELL I totally agree. I think there is kind of a thesis that we

all have maybe when we are working. If we feel something,


the thesis is that we hope others do. There are infinite

possible ways that people experience things. And I think


maybe the most mysterious part about music is context.

Because a piece of music may feel a certain way on its own.


But the amazing thing is that when you put it up against a

picture, I would say it always makes me not only see the


picture differently, but I also hear the music differently. I
don't know how to do this without experimenting because

you don't really, at least I certainly don't, know what's going


to happen when I put a piece of music up [onscreen].

Sometimes you put something up that you think has totally


the right feeling. And then you are like, "Wow, that doesn't

work at all."

It seems like there's some magic involved. Something


that can't be explained.

ABELS That's what makes it so fun. I don't completely want

the entire scientific answer spelled out to me as if there was


no magic. I need for it to be exciting and magical and

unknown.

There must be times when the magic isn't happening.

DESPLAT It cannot not happen. (Laughter.) It's the only


answer I have. Because the clock is ticking. The director has

finished. He is coming tomorrow morning. I already didn't


sleep much last night. I have to be ready and there is no way.

The second he opens the door to my studio, I need to play

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something, and so I don't care about inspiration. I just do my

job. I need to find something — whatever it is.

What do you do when the ideas aren't flowing?

IGLESIAS Sometimes I feel like I can't do anything interesting.


And it's because I have too much noise in my head. Too much

because even my own music, I am playing too much. I have to


get distance. Sometimes I listen to classical music or Béla

Bartók or Aretha Franklin. That [reminds] me in a way that


really, music is a miracle. We are the servants of that. And
then maybe something happens. I don't know — adrenaline

or something …

BOSTIC I completely agree with you. Sometimes that


adrenaline is so powerful because you have got that tension.

And then when you have that release and you are not
thinking — you are just present. I always marvel at what I

come up with when I am not thinking about the constraint,


even though there is that constraint of a deadline. All of a

sudden it's like, "OK, you just have to completely yield to what
you have to do." And in that moment for me is a lot of magic.

Have diversity and inclusivity within the composing

world gotten better in the past few years?

ABELS After Get Out came out, I was contacted by a lot of


young composers of color who said that they were rooting

for me and that they really look to me as a role model. And so


we ended up founding Composers Diversity Collective.

Hollywood has woken up to the fact that diversity is good for

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the box office. It's not a hindrance. That is the result of the
success of a lot of films in the past few years. So the purpose

of the Composers Diversity Collective is simply to say to


people who say, "You know, we want to be inclusive and we

know it's good, but we just don't know anybody" — our


purpose is to say: "Hey, over here. Here we are." This should

give people who want to be more inclusive a place that they


can go and help simplify that. I see people I know over the

last few years working more. And that's great. There is also a
lot more content being produced. So I think these two things

have helped and are working well together. Because there


are a lot more directors who need music. So I don't know if

that's a trend, but I know of more diverse composers now


who are working than I knew a couple of years ago.

GUDNADÓTTIR I just heard there were some studies that — I

hope I am not saying anything wrong — but I think three


years ago [the industry] was one percent female composers.
Two years ago, it was three, and then it went up to six. But I

think it kind of went down to two again. So I think it's just a


slow process because there is so much that needs to happen

for this to truly, truly change on a deeper, molecular level.


Because girls and female composers also have to see the

opportunity that this is actually a job that they are able to do.
That takes time for that to sink in — for women or girls to see

that as an option.

BOSTIC But I think on a broader level, until we start talking


about "OK, I am calling you a person of color because" —

why? Like, everyone has a color. I'd really like to talk about
why we have the need for stratification.
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GUDNADÓTTIR I think people have really become aware of


the situation and they are reacting to it. But I think, at least

speaking for myself in the last years — in the last year


specifically — it's almost never talked about in any interviews

that I am a female composer.

BOSTIC That's right.

GUDNADÓTTIR Like my gender isn't actually very important.


And this is something to truly celebrate.

BOSTIC Absolutely.

GUDNADÓTTIR Because this is something that really shows

us that change is happening.

DESPLAT It seems that society is moving very slowly,


unfortunately, and as you know, sometimes it goes further

and then it goes back. So we hope that it keeps going further.


I mean, Quincy Jones opened the gates of cinema in the '60s,

you know? And they should have been kept wide open. Why
are we still struggling to have diversity? It makes no sense to

me.

What is your biggest complaint about the composing


process?

ABELS I guess what comes up for me is the unpredictability. A

film is a journey, and it's a unique journey. (Laughs.) You sign


up to be on that journey, so you can't always predict where

you are going to be in another week or another two weeks. I


always need to be prepared to adjust.

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BRITELL I think there is sometimes sort of a paradox for


people who are trying to create things. Which is that in order

to do the things of creation, you need to do like 300 other


things to get into the situation where you can do the creative.
And I think maybe it's just inherent in the nature of working

in entertainment.

What are some of those 300 things?

BRITELL I mean logistical things. Travel. Administrative

things. Being a part of the industry, I would say. Which is so


important and can actually be really special. But at the same
time I think, on a personal level, I am never happier than

when I am just in my studio, by myself, just sitting in front of


a piano. I sometimes joke about how you have to do like a

million things just so you can be alone in your room. I was


also going to say one of the nice things about these sorts of

things is we get to see each other. We get to meet each other


and talk.

You mean other composers? You enjoy talking to one

another because it's so rare?

ABELS Yeah, and inspiring.

BRITELL Hearing other people having the same questions …


it's very special.

IGLESIAS I think we are in a very special position even being

here. We are very privileged. Of course it's very difficult.


Sometimes you have to confront your problems. But all jobs

are very difficult. I remember when I started with this, with


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making music for movies, the composers who were

composing the "high culture" — or the contemporary music


— they felt like our job was something not so good. A minor

job. Like the difference between a doctor and a nurse.


(Laughter.) And, well, I didn't feel like this.

DESPLAT Like a nurse?

IGLESIAS Like a nurse. But I love the nursery we have. And

sometimes, it's better to be a good nurse than a bad doctor.


(Laughter.)

ABELS Always. It's always been.

How do you balance your personal lives with the


demands of your job?

BRITELL It can be very difficult. I feel very lucky because my

wife, Caitlin, is a cellist.

GUDNADÓTTIR Yeah. I was going to say I think we all work


with our spouses. I think that's the trick.

BRITELL It's a family affair. It's very family-oriented. I am very

lucky I can say to Caitlin, "I wonder how this might sound on
the cello?" And at the same time it can be really difficult.

When you are immersed, you are immersed. It requires such


an almost unbelievable level of focus at times.

DESPLAT It's difficult. But living with a violinist helps, of


course. She knows what the life of a musician is. She knows

my ups and my downs when I am writing. But of course there

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is, like you said, frustration. I don't go on holidays. There is no

choice because we know that the schedule is stronger than


us. We can't do anything. There is a deadline and we can't

fight it. There is nothing we can do.

There must be a great level of understanding among the


people around you?

ABELS Incredible. Just incredible understanding. I don't work

with my husband, but we have standing dates, where that


time is reserved for us. And I occasionally, right near the end,

I have to ask for permission to bow out. But I make a huge


effort not to. It really has to be just red alert. But he can read

when the red alert is coming. I don't know how he does it,
actually. I guess that's why that works. Because he somehow

knows I don't want to cancel. And he somehow senses when


it would be a good idea if I did.

You must really appreciate that.

ABELS More than I can even say.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/nicholas-britell-kathryn-bostic-composer-roundtable-1257708 19/21
1/2/2020 Nicholas Britell, Kathryn Bostic and the Composer Roundtable | Hollywood Reporter

This story first appeared in a November stand-alone issue of The


Hollywood Reporter magazine. To receive the magazine, click

here to subscribe.

Main Image: From left: Michael Abels, Nicholas Britell, Kathryn Bostic, Hildur
Gudnadóttir, Alberto Iglesias and Alexandre Desplat were photographed Oct. 25
at Apotheke in downtown Los Angeles.

Martha Galvan

The Hollywood Reporter

© 2020 The Hollywood Reporter


All rights reserved.

The Hollywood Reporter, LLC is a subsidiary of Prometheus Global Media,


LLC.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/nicholas-britell-kathryn-bostic-composer-roundtable-1257708 20/21
1/2/2020 Nicholas Britell, Kathryn Bostic and the Composer Roundtable | Hollywood Reporter
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/nicholas-britell-kathryn-bostic-composer-roundtable-1257708 21/21

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