LAURA STASSI

I'M Laura Stassi, and this is Dating While Gray. The grownups guide to love sex and
relationships. Sex. You knew it was coming. I hope I haven't kept you waiting too long.

ROBIN
Sex is important in a relationship. Even at this age, I'm finding out.

GIRARD
Yes it is. Being alluring for each other.

LAURA STASSI
This episode, sex talk.

I have a working knowledge of how aging might affect a woman's sexual health, but a
man's? It's kind of a mystery to me. And I'm curious. So when I heard about a sex and
aging conference featuring two distinguished doctors, one male, one female, I signed up.
Yes, I am the kind of person who thinks a conference about sex and aging on a Saturday,
why not? After all, both aging and sex are relevant to me. I assumed I'd learn about sexual
health and aging for both men and women. But when we got to the part of the program
featuring the two doctors, all the men were directed to get up from their seats and walk out
of the room and down the hall into another room where they'd hear the male doctor talk.
And all the women? We were directed to stay in our seats in the room the men were
leaving to listen to the female doctor talk. It was sixth grade sex ed all over again. The
conference director told me later the program was designed this way so all of us would feel
comfortable asking personal questions. But that meant there was no mutual sharing of
information. It seems to me this was a big missed opportunity. We don't understand until
we're aging how aging affects our sexual health. And the only knowledge I have about
sexual health and aging is what's happening to me. Anything else? We have to seek out
the information for ourselves. And there's a lot of stuff out there that may scare you out of
having sex. You worry that it's gonna hurt or you're not gonna be able to perform. Even if
all of us knew everything there is to know about sexual health, we still need clarity and
comfort about what our expectations are. What we like, what we don't like, what scares us,
what we're willing to try. It seems to me a lack of communication is the biggest reason why
something I want to think of as fun and pleasurable and fulfilling may wind up being
complicated and disappointing, maybe even devastating.

You know, one of the best parts of making this podcast is that I get to explore a topic I
might be otherwise too embarrassed to bring up. And I want to share with you what I've
learned. And no one needs to leave the room. We're starting with Sandy. Sandy grew up
believing you don't have sex until you get married. And in fact, she didn't have sex until
she met the man who became her husband. They got married young and stayed married
for more than 25 years. But she was devastated to learn that he was having an affair and
he refused to stop seeing this other woman. So Sandy felt like she had no choice but to
end the marriage. Sandy agreed to talk with me about her views on sex and intimacy.

SANDY
We were monog, or I was monogamous and that was important to me. That's what
enriched our marriage and our relationship. I had no other experience. I'm a Christian and I
had a really strong belief that I wanted that to be with y'know, my partner, my life partner. I
didn't want to just give that away. For two years, I just was angry and I knew I would be a
horrible partner, date, anything. It's like I just wanted to work this out with myself and God
and grow up and figure out how I was gonna manage my life by myself. And then after
that, I thought, well, I should at least go date. So I started online dating. And, you know,
met a lot of really nice men, but would know immediately, nah.
LAURA STASSI
Before you had ever been married, you wanted to save sex for that special partner. Did
you have the same attitude as a single woman? But now past 50 or, were you even
thinking about sex at this point?

SANDY
Yeah, that's funny. I wasn't thinking about having sex. You know, when I first meet men,
I'm thinking about gosh, will I enjoy them? Do I like em?

LAURA STASSI
But then your friends introduced you to a gentleman and. Can we give him a name just to.
So we're not calling it.

SANDY
Tom.

LAURA STASSI
Tom, let's call him Tom. Okay. So friends introduced you or?

SANDY
Yes. And it, they they invited. It was really weird. They invited my family. Some of, you
know, my sister, my sister in law and a bunch of single women. Like it was The Bachelor
or something. And I just.

LAURA STASSI
Ohhh.

SANDY
Was so disgusted by that whole thing that I was like, I'm not even interested in talking to
him. I, I don't have a competitive bone in my body.

LAURA STASSI
Wait, wait, wait, wait. So I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. Somebody becomes
single so family and friends throw him like a dinner party and there's like all these potential
people from whom he can choose?

SANDY
Yeah. Yeah. It was gross. Fun for him.

LAURA STASSI
I was gonna say, he was the only single guy?

SANDY
Yeah. He, he was late because he was buying roses for all of us, just like oh my God.

LAURA STASSI
It was The Bachelor! The gray bachelor! You went out to this dinner, but you were like, not
competitive. So you kind of had a smirk on your face the whole time?

SANDY
I had no idea that like three other women eligible bachelorettes were gonna be there.

LAURA STASSI
Ohhhh.
SANDY
I thought it was going to be really casual.

LAURA STASSI
So you had din, you did go to the dinner and you got apparently you got the rose.

SANDY
He did call me and asked me, y'know, if I wanted to go out and, y'know, watch a football
game at a sports bar. I'm like yeah, sure, you know it'd be, that's safe territory.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

SANDY
So, we went out. And he was, you know, very nice.

LAURA STASSI
But he was separated. He was.

SANDY
He was separated. Yeah. So I knew nothing was gonna happen from my end in terms of
intimacy. I mean, kissing. Yeah, sure. I want to see how he kisses. But I would never go
any further because he was still married and he was fine with that. So.

LAURA STASSI
So you went out with so after this first date.

SANDY
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
At the sports bar there's a connection of some sort. But he tells you he's not officially
divorced.

SANDY
Right.

LAURA STASSI
And so you're thinking, well, I'll go out with you a few more times, but it's not gonna be
anything major until you get divorced or how did that.

SANDY
Well, I wasn't even thinking that far down the line. When he unloaded on me and explained
the whole scenario, I thought, "yikes." At that point, I was curious. It had been, what, three
years now that I've been divorced?

LAURA STASSI
Mm hmm.

SANDY
And, and he, I just. It was fun. You know? Have a partner to go out and go sightseeing
with, somebody to take you to dinner, talk about your family.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

SANDY
Yeah. And be courted. Yeah. That was fun. So I thought, well, no harm there.

LAURA STASSI
Did you ever have a conversation that, "hey, you know, I'm okay to kiss, but we're not
gonna be more physically intimate because you are not available." Or. How did that?

SANDY
Well, that didn't really happen until we, you know, started to kiss more. So we went out. It
was probably three or four dates before, you know, it became.

LAURA STASSI
Like a kiss.

SANDY
Yeah, I'm well. He kissed me briefly, but it wasn't you know, it was very gentlemanly. I
don't even really remember how it all unfolded, but it was at a gentle pace. I remember
thinking, gosh, you know, he's not very forward.

LAURA STASSI
And were you okay with that?

SANDY
Yeah, I was. But then it you know, after a while it's like.

LAURA STASSI
Come on, buddy. Put out.

SANDY
Yeah, exactly. And at that point, I was like, golly, you know? We still weren't gonna go any
further until he got divorced. Yeah, we dated for gosh, it was four months, five months, I
think.

LAURA STASSI
Oh wow.

SANDY
Before we, was it that long? Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
So it was like dinners, sightseeing, just like datey-date things but not like.

SANDY
Heavy petting. Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
How would you describe heavy petting just so we're all on the same page.

SANDY
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
I remember the old base. I wonder if people.

SANDY
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
Still talk about bases. Okay.

SANDY
Right.

LAURA STASSI
Third base.

SANDY
First, second.

LAURA STASSI
Third.

SANDY
Yeah. Third. Yeah. Was kind of all that.

LAURA STASSI
Third base. Mhmmm, Okay. And the only reason at this point you're thinking it's not gonna
go farther is because he's legally not able to.

SANDY
No. Well, no. He was very open and upfront that he'd had cancer and that he wasn't sure if
he would be able to get an erection again. And that, that, that was after about four weeks
of dating.

LAURA STASSI
Before any heavy petting or?

SANDY
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
Mmhmm.

SANDY
And I was like hey that's fine you know, because I wasn't thinking it was gonna last
anyway.

LAURA STASSI
So it's kind of not safe but I mean it was kind of a nice excuse?

SANDY
Yeah. Right. So it allowed him and, and then it explained to me why he wasn't more
aggressive but we talked a lot about it. The doctor was trying to give him some medication
to help make an erection happen.

LAURA STASSI
I'm just thinking, poor guy, here he is going through a divorce and cancer at the same time.
So that's gotta be really tough. And so you're thinking, okay, I'm interested in this guy. I'm
not gonna marry him, but I am interested in having sex with this man.

SANDY
Correct.

LAURA STASSI
Because why not?

SANDY
Right. It was like, this is gonna be fun. I'm just gonna have fun. I. I deserve it. I haven't had
sex in years and years. And I just want to. And it will make him realize he's still a man. You
know, at that point and we're and we're friends, so.

LAURA STASSI
It was philanthropic. Was there a plan ahead of time?

SANDY
Yes.

LAURA STASSI
Like, as soon as this is go through.

SANDY
Yup.

LAURA STASSI
Clear out the back seat of your car.

SANDY
No, he was much more a gentleman. He picked a place that was really important to him in
his life and made reservations.

LAURA STASSI
Was any part of you terrified?

SANDY
Not really.

LAURA STASSI
I mean, you haven't had sex with anybody but your ex-husband.

SANDY
Right. Right.

LAURA STASSI
So, no, you didn't think you thought this is gonna be easy or not. Yeah. Or did you?

SANDY
I felt like I was really safe. He he is a wonderful human being. He was more scared
because in order to have an erection, he had to stick needles in his penis and use a pump
to pump it up. So I think he was way more scared than me.

LAURA STASSI
And did he explain everything that he was going to have to do or?

SANDY
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because he wanted to make sure I was gonna be on board with it all.

LAURA STASSI
Did you buy any like, lingerie or anything or?

SANDY
I did, I did. He actually thought I was sexy in it. My husband. I'll never forget. On my, as a
newlywed, I bought some lingerie and he laughed at me. But he.

LAURA STASSI
I'm sorry. That's terrible.

SANDY
Yeah, I know.

LAURA STASSI
So how did you feel? Was it satisfying for you?

SANDY
It was. It was great. We just were very playful about the whole thing. You're familiar, it's
another body. It's somebody new.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

SANDY
Which is very exciting. And we have had such a good rapport in communicating that, you
know, I. It just felt, it felt really wonderful and fun.

LAURA STASSI
You know, it can be awkward talking about sex. I really appreciate Sandy’s willingness to
share about her second first time. Her story is a great example of how good
communication leads to good sex. As anyone whose ever had sex knows, it easily could
have gone the other way. Sandy and Tom aren't together anymore. But Sandy met
someone new and she's had a third first time. In fact, the relationship has gotten very
serious, they're even talking marriage.

Quick break to remind you that listener support keeps the spark alive for this podcast. If
you're ready to take our relationship to the next level, click the link in the show notes to
become a member of WAMU and support Dating While Gray. When you make a gift at
WAMU.org, be sure to leave a comment and let us know your favorite thing about the
show so far. Thanks for your support.

I think one of the most difficult parts of talking about sex is just figuring out what language
to use. We're uncomfortable saying the clinical words for sex organs. And I'm part of the
problem. I think even the term sex organ is a little icky. Maybe that's why we ended up with
so many slang words like my personal favorite: lady garden. But I understand if we're
going to have an adult conversation about sex, there's nothing wrong with saying the
actual words out loud. And I'm going first. Vagina. That's the word for the inside of the
female sex organ. The word for the outside is vulva. And the transition area from vulva to
vagina is vestibule. You know, I lived with an architect for almost 30 years. I never knew
vestibule was a part of anything other than a building. But I know now because I read The
Vagina Bible by Dr. Jen Gunter. She's an OBGYN and she specializes in women's pain.
Dr. Jen, as she likes to be called, is also a leading advocate for communicating about
women's sexual health. She says many women are desperate for reliable information, but
sometimes not even health care providers do a good job of communicating.

DR. JEN GUNTER

Many women suffer because they have their symptoms brushed off so that hot flash just
can't really be that bad or vaginal dryness isn't really that bad. And certainly those things
can easily be treated. And, I shouldn't say easily, because some women do have a hard
time getting their hot flashes treated even with medical therapy. But therapy should be
offered. The fact that it's not is, is concerning that there's this kind of gap in
communication. You know, if sex is very painful, then you might expect from many people
that your libido would go down. There are some women who simply suffer in silence and,
and continue to actually have the same libido because the tradeoff is worth it. But the, the
vaginal dryness, the lack of lubrication, those types of things can be treated sometimes
with over-the-counter aids like lubricants. That can be enough for some women. Vaginal
moisturizers can be enough for some women. But many women also need medical
therapy. There is a lot of benefit in, first of all, just getting a diagnosis.

LAURA STASSI
So I'm hearing about all kinds of things women are putting on or in their vaginas.

DR. JEN GUNTER

So in, in your vagina or on your vulva?

LAURA STASSI
Yes. I'm sorry. There you go, thank you very much.

DR. JEN GUNTER

OK. Just gotta be medically accurate there.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

DR. JEN GUNTER

Okay.

LAURA STASSI
How about olive oil?

DR. JEN GUNTER

You know, the olive oil on your vulva is fine if you want to use it as a sexual lubricant.
Certainly people have done that. The one thing I would say that if you are needing to use
latex condoms for sex and I think that's a super important point not to miss, that you
cannot use oil-based lubricants with a latex condom.

LAURA STASSI
Coconut oil.

DR. JEN GUNTER

So exactly the same thing for coconut oil. A lot of my patients prefer it over olive oil
because it smells a little bit different and it because it's clear it's not likely get you know, it's
going to leave a stain on your sheets.

LAURA STASSI
How about carrots and other elongated vegetables?

DR. JEN GUNTER

So I would not use any fruits or vegetables in your vagina for any reason. There can be
mold or soil contaminants on vegetable matter. There are lots of wonderful vibrators for
people to use for masturbation, and they even make vibrators in the shape of different
vegetables, if that's your thing.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, you're kidding.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah, they do. I mean, I you know, I've seen them online. If trying something that looks
different appeals to you, then then that's the way to do it.

LAURA STASSI
Why do you think there's so much misinformation out there?

DR. JEN GUNTER

You know, women's sexual complaints are largely dismissed. That's all I do every day are
listen to women with sexual complaints. So on one hand, I'm like, how is this happening?
But I know it is because sometimes women come to me and it took 10 or 15 years or 20
years. So I, I know they're being dismissed. I hear their stories. I think it's dismissed partly
because they're unstudied, partly because women's pain is minimized. And it's hard
enough to talk about sex and talk about your body. So, because society has imparted
shame in that. I mean, it's hard for people to even say the word vagina in public. So where
do you go if you can't say the word vagina and your doctor or the medical profession has
made you feel like there's something wrong with your body? Women's bodies are seen as
problematic. Women are seen as complaining.

LAURA STASSI
Do you think that perhaps a part of the problem might be women themselves, as we reach
a certain age, simply don't think of ourselves as sexual beings anymore?

DR. JEN GUNTER

Everybody gets to do what's right for them. People come to wanting sex, I think, for
different reasons. You know, women can come to want sex because they have a because
they have desire. They can come to want to have sex because they want physical
closeness with their partner. They can come to sex because they want to have comfort.
And then once you start to engage in kissing and cuddling, then desire kicks in. So some
people may find their, their sexual desire completely changes with age. And if they're not
interested in sex, that's fine. Everybody gets to have the life that they want. But I also think
that if there's been this weight on you that women are not sexual in their 50's and 60's, you
know, might that not change how we think about ourselves? I mean, I'm in my 50's and I, I
like to have sex, and it's always interesting when I talk to reporters about that, sometimes
there's almost this gasp or this pause afterwards that it's such a radical thing to say.

LAURA STASSI
I wanted to ask you about your dating life. What is it like being an expert and dating? Are
you dating only men who seem to understand the body or are you having to explain it to
them?

DR. JEN GUNTER

I'm a heterosexual, so I'm only dating men and I'm only dating one person at this time. But
I did.

LAURA STASSI
Oh.

DR. JEN GUNTER

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ten months though, online of online dating with a lot of I would say
interesting conversations and some experiences that, you know, were sad in many ways.

LAURA STASSI
Sad because of, could you give me an example?

DR. JEN GUNTER

Oh sure. I found that I think compared to other women my age, there was definitely a very
rapid progression to sexting. I think that many men misinterpreted the fact that I write
about sex as meaning that I want to have sex with them. What are you wearing? Take
your clothes off. I'm like what? This is like our sixth texts. What are you talking about?
What is wrong with you? And you know that pressure. We are all vulnerable. We want to
be liked. And if you're out there dating in your 50's, you know, you're already fighting
society's view that, that your body has less worth. So it's very different to sext in a con,
once you've got a consensual relationship, that's a different thing.

LAURA STASSI
Here you are. You're a doctor. You've written a book called The Vagina Bible and you still
are coming across men who, I don't know. They're either not taking you seriously or they
might think it's a challenge?

DR. JEN GUNTER

There have been a couple of men who I think thought it was, would be cool to kind of say
they had sex with me and move on. And it's a reflection of them, not on me. There are very
many good men who when they heard that I wrote the book The Vagina Bible and that I
write about sex we're like, oh, interesting. And moved on. And then there were, you know,
men who started asking me very graphic questions about sex. And I'm like, OK, well, that's
a fast fail.

LAURA STASSI
So they weren't questions that they were posing in order to become more knowledgeable?

DR. JEN GUNTER

I don't think so. They were, they wanted to tell me that, you know, what I'd written about
was incorrect.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, based on their expertise?

DR. JEN GUNTER

Yeah. Based on their, they were gyno-splaining to me.

LAURA STASSI
Oh no.

DR. JEN GUNTER

So that happens. And, and then, of course, came along a man who said, "well, I should
read your book first. Shouldn't I?"

LAURA STASSI
Oh, and how did you respond to him?

DR. JEN GUNTER

I said, "yes. Here's a copy." And he, very insightful. He said, "well, there probably, there's
probably lots of good information in there. And if I read between the lines, there might be
information in there that speaks very specifically about you." And I said, "wow." Yeah. So
that's, that's why I'm dating him.

LAURA STASSI
So clearly, even though we're older, that doesn't mean we have to give up sex if we don't
want to. Aging will lead to changes in our bodies that might make sex more uncomfortable
or even painful. But there's a lot that can be done to address those issues. And two other
things I learned. Unless you're an actual gynecologist, please, no gyno-splaining. Also,
elongated vegetables should stay in your refrigerator until you're ready to eat them. Not
that I've been thinking of doing anything else with them. Not anymore. Dr. Jen wasn't the
only doctor I called. I wanted to find out what happens to men's bodies, too. So I called in
Dr. Arthur Burnett. He's a professor of urology at Johns Hopkins University. He's also an
expert prostate cancer surgeon. And get this. He was part of the team that performed the
world's first total penis and scrotum transplant. Dr. Burnett is also a scientist and his
original research helped lead to the development of Viagra. In case you didn't know, the
little blue pill was the first medication to treat erectile dysfunction. And while I'm on a
clinical roll, I'll explain E.D. is defined as the consistent inability to attain and maintain a
penile erection for sexual performance. I asked Dr. Burnett to join me for a little game I'm
calling junk science. I probably should note Dr. Burnett did not sign off on the name. Are
you ready to play? Answer, true or false to four questions. Number one, losing the ability to
have sex is a normal part of aging.

DR. ARTHUR BURNETT

I think that perhaps is one of the myths about sexual dysfunction that accepted as a part of
aging. But no, men as well as women can be sexually functional for as long as they do
live.

LAURA STASSI
Number two, if you're having trouble with your erection, you may need to see a doctor
about your heart.

DR. ARTHUR BURNETT

Absolutely. We do note, know that as men get older, their cardiovascular health status
may change and that may have some impact on their erections.

LAURA STASSI
Number three, as men get older, the sex hormone testosterone declines dramatically.

DR. ARTHUR BURNETT

Testosterone levels do drift as men age, but not so dramatically as people perhaps had
previously thought.

LAURA STASSI
Oh yeah.

DR. ARTHUR BURNETT

There were earlier considerations that uniformly all men would just lose their testosterone
as they age, almost like a male menopause. Many men, even in their 60's, 70's and even
80's, may still have very normal testosterone levels.

LAURA STASSI
Number four, shock wave therapy for your penis is a thing.

DR. ARTHUR BURNETT

Yeah. So this is a phenomenon that's occurred here in the past few years that has some
scientific basis.

LAURA STASSI
Does it hurt?
DR. ARTHUR BURNETT
You can arrange settings with a probe that can be brought to the penis and it creates a
little kind of a shock. The FDA has not approved it. I'm concerned that patients who wish to
explore this clearly understand that this is not yet an approved therapy.

LAURA STASSI
How'd you do? And shockwave therapy? I don't know. If anyone has firsthand experience
to report, I am curious. But actually, I hope no one does, because as Dr. Burnett said, it's
not an approved therapy. So with our clinical lessons out of the way, let's move on to
pleasure.

That's very interesting. It looks very kind of Star Trekky too.

KATHRYN ELLIS
You gotta be careful. This thing might open your garage door.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

Check out the Dating While Gray Facebook page. I share all kinds of things. Studies,
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It seems like if you want to be physically healthy and emotionally healthy, you have to talk
about pleasure. And that led me to Kathryn Ellis. She's an occupational therapist and a
certified sexuality counselor. She says each of us needs to know and then be able to
communicate our personal definition of what's sexually pleasurable. Here's our
conversation after I start complaining about my runner's knee.

KATHRYN ELLIS
We have this full body. I mean, not everyone. Right but.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
I mean, there are people that are amputees, but we have a fairly large surface area to.

LAURA STASSI
Sorry.

KATHRYN ELLIS
I know, right?

LAURA STASSI
Surface area, I love it.

KATHRYN ELLIS
Yeah. I mean, we have a fairly large surface area to experience pleasure. I would first
have a very detailed dialogue around how orgasms commonly occur, how pleasure is
commonly experienced, and then sort of build on top of that the activities that you guys are
going to do together. Not every sexual activity requires you to bend your knee in a way
that is painful. We can think like, oh, well, I can't do this one thing. And so then I can't do.
LAURA STASSI
Anything.

KATHRYN ELLIS
Anything or everything. And I think sometimes people miss the point of like, well, how do I
even orgasm? How do you orgasm? Does it require, and does it require me to bend my
knee? If it doesn't? Great. I don't bend my knee. If it does, now we have a dialogue around
how to modify that. I encourage that people don't apologize for their bodies. When we are
body positive we're viewing our bodies as vessels of pleasure. And so whether the knee
hurts or perhaps like there's difficulty with maintaining an erection, it's sort of coming to the
table in a confident way, knowing that you can be a very pleasing sexual partner with all
the different parts of your body to this person. Like you have lot to offer sexually. When
people are dating and younger people do this, too, but thinking like, I've got to get this right
or there's a perfect way to do it. And so I need to be the perfect partner. And the perfect
partner is someone that just knows what, y'know, a man wants in bed or what a woman
wants in bed. Well, there's no dialogue in that. The confidence can get sort of wounded by
this idea that I have to perform a certain way. And so a huge amount of what I do is
conference boosting. But it, you know, it's not me just being like the cheerleader. It's kind
of it's me saying, "you need to figure out a way to be your own cheerleader. So let's talk
about that." A lot of times because of people's past experiences, they won't know that their
desires are the ones that are important. We don't think of like, hey, what do I want?

LAURA STASSI
The statistics will say there are so many people, adults coupled, who have stopped having
sex. I mean, why aren't people having sex?

KATHRYN ELLIS
I don't think it's any one answer. I think there's a whole group of people. You know, as a
sexuality enthusiast, I am well aware that not everyone is.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

KATHRYN ELLIS
And that it is not. You know, we as the occupational therapists we're always looking at,
what is the meaningful activity. It is totally normal for sexuality and sexual expression and
sexual activity to not be super meaningful for someone. There's many couples that have
sex once a month. There's couples that have sex, that don't have sex, maybe have sex
once or twice a year. And they're really happy. On the other end of the spectrum, there's
couples that that don't and they're really unhappy with that.

LAURA STASSI
Or at least one of them is.

KATHRYN ELLIS
Yeah. I think why do people stop having sex is you know, there's there's a lot that goes
into that. You know, this idea of the body has changed. The flame of desire is best kept on
simmer. You know, it's really hard for a cold pot to go to boiling. It's a whole lot easier for a
pot that is on simmer.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
To go to boil. So it's like every day. Every single day. What are people doing to stoke their
own desire and to stoke their partners desire? For the person maybe that single, like, what
are they doing to.

LAURA STASSI
Make sure their pot doesn't go cold?

KATHRYN ELLIS
Absolutely. What we're really getting at is fullness and satisfaction with the whole self. And
the self is also, you know, there's a sexual side to most people. So it's like feeding them.
And for single people, is that building desire? Is it wearing a certain outfit? Is it wearing
lipstick? Is it exercising? You know, how do people sort of feed their own desire completely
by themselves? It's important for single people to do that. It's important for coupled people
to do that. Everyone has responsibility for their desire. 90 to 95 percent of the time I'm
talking about the more like social, cognitive, emotional, you know, more physical aspects.
And then some of the time I do recommend toys and products. I did a lecture at a
occupational therapy hand clinic and then the head of the hand clinic was like, "I don't
understand why you're here. We're a hand clinic." And I literally was like, "what are you
using when you have sex? You're not using your hands? I don't. What are you doing with
your hands, sir?"

LAURA STASSI
So what is that you've got in your hand? It looks like a rattle, I'm sorry.

KATHRYN ELLIS
OK. So this is.

LAURA STASSI
It's pink.

KATHRYN ELLIS
A finger ring.

LAURA STASSI
Oh.

KATHRYN ELLIS
That also vibrates.

LAURA STASSI
Oh.

KATHRYN ELLIS [00:30:21] And so this, this is for all the hand clinics out there. People use
their hand for hand jobs or perhaps fingering and touching the entire body. If someone
maybe has like a hand deficit where they don't have the dexterity to do the small
movements required for, you know, fingering or like a gross grasp around a penis for a
hand job.

LAURA STASSI
Gross meaning?

KATHRYN ELLIS
That's a technical term. Gross grasp is like the same way that you would grasp like a water
bottle. This vibrates and it can go. I always say like we can kind of get hang, hung up on,
you know, what's the toy for? But if it vibrates, put it anywhere. It'll feel good. Like as we
get older or sometimes the vagina or the penis can kind of have a little bit of diminished
sensation. So the idea is adding more stimulation.

LAURA STASSI
It looks like a rattle, but it's a ring and it, does it matter what finger you put it on?

KATHRYN ELLIS
Nope.

LAURA STASSI
It feels just good on my finger. I like that. Okay. How does it have different levels?

KATHRYN ELLIS
That one does not.

LAURA STASSI
OK.

KATHRYN ELLIS
You know, if it vibrates, put it anywhere. It will feel good. There is one small caveat there.
So for any sort of internal anal stimulation, you have to have a stopper.

LAURA STASSI
K, I don't understand.

KATHRYN ELLIS
External anal stimulation. You can use any device. But internally, if it goes inside the anus,
it has to have a stopper so that it doesn't go all the way inside the anus.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, OK.

KATHRYN ELLIS
And cause that would be a that would be a health issue or it would get stuck there. So this
is where I get to why it's so important to ask your partner, how do you normally experience
pleasure? Because there's insides, outsides. There's vibration. There's light pressure.
There's deep pressure, tapping, rubbing, circular motions. The toys, one thing I really like
about toys is that they sort of force the dialogue. What area do you you know, do you like
this on?

LAURA STASSI
Or would you like to try it on?

KATHRYN ELLIS
Or would you like to try it on or you know, and some people don't. Some people don't want
to use toys. So some of the internal devices would be traditionally like a dildo and they
vibrate some vibrate. This one.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, my goodness.

KATHRYN ELLIS
This would be a dildo. What we have here is this internal spiral thing that adds like another
more sensation in the virginal canal.

LAURA STASSI
Gotcha.

KATHRYN ELLIS
I mean, no penis does this. And then the very tip of the penis kind of goes in a circular
motion.

LAURA STASSI
Can that kill you? I mean, that sounds like it.

KATHRYN ELLIS
Proceed with caution. I mean, it is a fun area of the body. But, yeah, I mean, any, any sex
there are, y'know, we have to be safe.

LAURA STASSI
Right, yes.

KATHRYN ELLIS
With all sorts of sex. On this device, off the shaft is another device that comes around and
stimulates the clitoris.

LAURA STASSI
Oh.

KATHRYN ELLIS
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
That's very interesting. It looks very kind of Star-Trekky.

KATHRYN ELLIS
You gotta be careful. This thing might open your garage door.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
I mean, it's, this thing is powerful.

LAURA STASSI
Wow.

KATHRYN ELLIS
Oh yeah. You know, I always recommend lubrication. For everyone. Everywhere, your
belly button to your butthole. A knee to knee. Literally put that lubrication everywhere. For
women, there can be pain with penetration. You know, lubrication really helps with that.
Time, giving their bodies time to have the arousal process, sort of like preparing for
penetration and orgasm beforehand can really help relax the pelvic region.

LAURA STASSI
An orgasm before penetration?

KATHRYN ELLIS
Yes.

LAURA STASSI
OK. And how does that work?
KATHRYN ELLIS
Well, ideally, you and your partner have had that dialogue around how do you orgasm?
You know, how do you experience pleasure? And so, you know, for 80 percent of women,
it's clitorally. And so, you know, I, not that every single time every partner has to have, both
partners, you know, have to have orgasms. But.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
That is certainly over time. You know, it's important to have equity there. You know, when
you separate out the, the orgasm like that, it can be a big focus on one partner's pleasure.
And then the same like focus on the other person's pleasure.

LAURA STASSI
So coming at the same time has always been a myth it sounds like.

KATHRYN ELLIS
It's an absolute myth. It's another thing I'm getting at Hollywood over.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah, yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
It's. And it's really like it's really misleading. It's also very difficult and a lot of work. It's
amazing amount of work. And people are already under so much pressure to like keep the
erection long enough for her to orgasm.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
the 15 to 25 percent of women that have penetrative orgasms.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
So we're not even talking about like we're leaving out a whole other group of women and
also the way that that they orgasm.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

KATHRYN ELLIS
And so, you know, separating out people's orgasms so that one partner can be fully
receiving and the other partner can be fully giving. I think is so helpful.

LAURA STASSI
I don't know about you, but what Kathryn says about separating out the orgasms one at a
time makes so much sense to me. I'm not trying to be sexist here, but this seems like solid
scientific proof that I get to go first. I hope you're feeling as confident as I am that good sex
is an achievable goal. Anybody who wants to have sex is entitled to have good sex, no
matter how old you are or who you choose to be intimate with. Dating While Gray is
produced by Poncie Rutsch, Patrick Fort, Ruth Tam, Julia Karron and me, Laura Stassi.
Our theme music is by Daniel Peterschmidt and Mike Kidd mixes the show. WAMU's
general manager is J.J. Yore and Andi McDaniel oversees everything we make here. We'd
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