LAURA STASSI

I'm Laura Stassi, and this is Dating While Gray, the grownups guide to love, sex and
relationships. On this episode, three stories of defining commitment on your own terms.

My aunt Mary Jane was divorced the first time around and widowed the second time. Then
when she was 79, she got married for the third time. And like she did in her other two
marriages, she took her husband's last name. I think of aunt Mary Jane as a strong
woman ahead of her time. But she did choose a very traditional way of expressing
romantic commitment. She got married, changed her name. That's certainly what I did. I
got married, changed my name. And for many people, this is the ideal way to express
commitment. According to one study, people 50 and older who identify as lesbian, gay,
bisexual or transgender are more likely than younger LGBT adults to choose same sex
marriage over simply living together. Of course, LGBT couples haven't always had that
option, but I think it shows that whether you're gay or straight, marriage seems like the
best way to prove you're committed to someone. So yay marriage, if that's your thing. But
if there's anything I've learned since becoming single, it's that marriage isn't the only way
to demonstrate commitment. We have options, or as one sociologist described it different
ways of organizing your life. Organizing your life, I really like that phrase because to me it
emphasizes that we're in control. We can custom build commitment to fit our needs and
desires. Pick and choose the elements and create new ones that work for our unique
circumstances.

One story that has expanded my understanding of commitment is from Elaine Elliottt.
She's a big deal in college sports. Elaine started coaching women's college basketball
when she was right out of college herself. She spent 27 seasons coaching the University
of Utah team and all but one were winning seasons. So professionally, a lot of success.
Personally, maybe a different story. For most of her life, Elaine was closeted. That
changed in her mid-40’s when she met a woman named Lisa. They fell in love, bought a
house and moved in together. They were a couple for about 15 years. And then they broke
up, separating into different bedrooms so they could figure out next steps. But the end of
the romance did not mean the end of Elaine's commitment to Lisa, especially when Lisa
needed her most.
ELAINE ELLIOTT
She had been having issues with what we thought was a rotator cuff. She sort of just had
shoulder pain. So she went to an orthopedic doctor first and he did an X-ray. I mean, I
think he even used the word cancer to Lisa that day, I wasn't at the appointment. I hope
I'm not recollecting incorrectly. But it was, you know, here's the X-ray of your shoulder.
And, you know, your bones are not supposed to look like that.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, my gosh. Is that where the cancer started in her shoulder or?
ELAINE ELLIOTT
No, no. That was how they found cancer in her. Yeah, the origin was breast cancer had. It
had already spread. That led to an immediate, she had stage four breast cancer from the
first diagnosis.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, my gosh.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
So that must have been so scary for both of you. Scary for her knowing that she doesn't
have you as a romantic partner anymore. And also scary for you thinking, oh, my gosh,
what am I supposed to do now?

ELAINE ELLIOTT
I mean, I remember her immediately and specifically as, she was sitting on the couch and I
walked in the front door from another, you know, outing. And she just said, "you know, I
need to talk to you for a minute." And I sat down and it was like that first thing was, "you
know, I think I have cancer." And I mean, she, you know, started to cry. And I'm like, what?
And we just had this, you know, a kind of a quick conversation because, of course, we
didn't know much.
LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Which was sort of like, well, okay. Okay, we'll just go fix it. You know, this day and age,
you you don't just immediately think cancer, your dead, you think, okay. Many people live.
So we sort of it was just, you know, in coach mode. Let's just go. Whatever. Cut it out, you
know, flood you with [expletive]. Okay. Excuse me for the language but do it. Let's do it.
Won't be pleasant. That sucks. Cancer. That sucks.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
I didn't give any thought at that point in time to what that meant for me.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
It wasn't as though well oh this is a terminal illness and we don't really know how long and
we don't know the difficulties of the care needs. And that wasn't initially even a
consideration.

LAURA STASSI
When did it become a consideration? When did you actually realize, you know, confronted
with the reality of everything?

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Yeah, well, once you know, the process of getting to a, okay, breast cancer, you know,
this, the first thing we call is a surgeon. She came in and basically had to announce that,
"well, I won't be a part of this treatment. There, you are not a candidate for surgery. It's
stage four, and you will not have any different prognosis. If we take you know, if we did a
double mastectomy, it won't change." And she said, you know, "you have years, not
months." And Lisa, her response, you know, she kind of was. Well, it wasn't good news to
her in that she said, "well, I suppose that's good news to you." She goes, "but I. I thought I
would have decades." Now. What does years mean?

LAURA STASSI
Right.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
You know, two years, 10? I mean.
LAURA STASSI
And, you know, no one would think lesser of you if you had decided, you know what, I will
be your supportive friend, but I don't, I can't be intimately involved with your with your life
at this point. Did that ever cross your mind or?

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Never. And the thing that's I mean, maybe understanding a little bit about. I mean the
reason that was easy, it wasn't it isn't seemed to me in any way heroic. I was here. It was
like yeah. And Chris would have done it and Lane would have done it. And, you know, her
sister would have done it and, well, no, but they, none of them lived in Salt Lake City. And
so, yes, obviously, the disruption to somebody else's life to sort of say come and care for
her for however long. It wasn't. I was. And I was the same as all those people were. And
they would have done it had they been here. There are emotional complications with
caregiving that I understand now in a, in a different way. And part of it does include, to be
perfectly honest with you, part of it does include well, what about me? What about my life?

LAURA STASSI
Sure, I was gonna just say that you talk about the friends that were out of town. It would be
too disruptive. It would have been disruptive geographically to them. But in many ways, it
was as disruptive to your life as well.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
I'm not even sure why I, why I kind of thought well I think, "God, that might only mean
y'know, a couple years." But I didn't also think that it was some sort of, you know, decade
long commitment to, you know, a terminal illness either. So maybe if I'd known that,
maybe, a couple years is not very long. Just didn't have very long. Any, I would never not
do this. I would never not help her. I would never not stay in this, you know, in this space,
in her life. It was more like, okay. I don't want to live my life on hold.

LAURA STASSI
Yes.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
I don't want to live my life waiting for Lisa to die.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
But I want to be there for Lisa. So there's sort of conflicting, y'know, emotions about it. But
then sort of my, my questioning about my life came at about three years in where I said, "I
you know, I just I have to get busier. I have to find something for me to do that makes me
feel like I'm moving in some direction and not just, you know, waiting.".

LAURA STASSI
Yeah, yeah.
ELAINE ELLIOTT
So I actually, I actually left for six months for a job.

LAURA STASSI
Oh wow.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
In California from like September, maybe August till the next March. A coaching job, just
helping an ex-assistant and staying busy in that regard. And I mean, I moved, but I came
back to Salt Lake like every two weeks. And, and it was, that was even what made moving
away easier. To be honest with you and even sort of doing a job in California, I wasn't
interested in actually moving leaving Salt Lake City and getting out and never coming
back. And it was sort of like, yeah, it was like I'll take a seven-month job.

LAURA STASSI
I'm sorry, was Lisa okay with you leaving?
ELAINE ELLIOTT
The answer is yes, because that was Lisa. You know, absolutely. She never, ever made
me feel like, "oh what are you doing or why are you doing this?" Or.

LAURA STASSI
I need you. Yeah.
ELAINE ELLIOTT
Not at all. Not at all.

LAURA STASSI
What was different after you came back?
ELAINE ELLIOTT
I know it was really I think it ended up being as good as it could possibly be for me. You
know, it's like being away from it helped me get completely good with finishing that
commitment. That was, it was a good, positive mental health break for me. And, you know,
I knew Lisa had certainly people who would take up the slack as far as going to her
appointments with her. And I remember I'll probably cry when I talk about this. I got this
email from her. It was right after I'd gone back to L.A. after Christmas. So it was, you know,
sometime in January. And it was the most it was just, you know, she really laid herself
bare in a way that she really isn't. She's built that way. And that was you know, if I didn't
know already that was certainly when I knew how important it was. So, that, you know that
that made it really easy you know to come back to.
LAURA STASSI
So she sent you an email.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
And explained to you how much she loved you and needed you.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
That's true. Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah. Oh, wow. Hold on a second. OK. I'm wondering what you learned both good and
bad about yourself by this experience.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Well I mean, I guess I'm I'm glad that I didn't run away. I'm certainly glad that I, I'm glad I
wasn't the person who, you know, just was like, you know, not willing, not able, whatever
real things that can happen to people. And we shouldn't you know, we shouldn't be like,
what, you're a terrible person for not doing this. But I'm glad I, I wasn't. It has solidified for
me my own estimation that if we could understand that, you know, like everyone we've
ever loved in our life or any, and had, whether it was a quick love or a committed
relationship, just because it wasn't the first one that then lasted, you know, 65 years. I
mean, we. That doesn't mean that all of the others are, were failures. You know, the whole
concept of, you know, how we clap when when people say, "yes, we've been married 70
years," and they always get applause because that's the successful relationship. It never
ended. Well, I think every relationship should be a successful one. If you, if this person that
you were with, you shared love.

LAURA STASSI
Yes.

ELAINE ELLIOTT
Okay. What if you shared love for two years? Why is that a failure? I'm who I am today for
every person that I've loved.

LAURA STASSI
I think it's natural to assume, and we may even be relieved to assume, that responsibility
ends when the romantic commitment ends. That didn't happen with Elaine. She was
dedicated to Lisa after the romance was over. For Elaine, that's what commitment is. Now,
of course, everybody defines commitment differently. And there are a lot of reasons to hold
back from commitment altogether. After the break, we'll meet a couple who created a
definition of commitment that works for them.

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show us your support. And thank you.

Some people fear commitment. Maybe they think they're not good at it and they don't want
to get hurt or hurt anyone else. That sort of describes Norman. He's been married once,
got divorced in his 40's and then spent the next two decades in and out of casual
relationships. Norm grew to believe he wasn't the commitment type. But then, Norm met
Jeanne. She's twice divorced and had two kids, young adults, living with her. I'll let Norm
and Jeanne tell their story, starting with how they met.

JEANNE
You begin you start.

NORM
Alright, I'll start. I decided to go to Diversity Thrift Store and donate my amp. There's this
room that they take donations and the doorway had a curtain across it. So I just pull the
curtain back and there's this smiley face, gorgeous, twinkly eyed woman there sorting
fabrics. And I said, "excuse me, can you help me? I want to donate this amp." And she
said, "boy, can I help you?"

JEANNE
I did not! I'm gonna take over the story. Well yeah. He, and he pulled aside and I thought,
"oh, OK." And it's funny cause it was a cool, old amp. I think we got into a discussion about
the amp because we're both musicians. And I thought, "hmm, he could be, he could be a
Game of Thrones extra."

NORM
We stood there talking for about 20 minutes.

JEANNE
And then you message me on Facebook like.

NORM
I was floating on the cloud.

JEANNE
Like an hour later.

NORM
Yeah. I asked her to go if we could get together, was it Maymont?
JEANNE
Maymont. That was our first.

NORM
Go for a walk in Maymont Park.

JEANNE
And we met under what, what we now term the magic tree, which is a beautiful giant, I
think it's called a deodar cedar?

NORM
Yeah.

JEANNE
It's a gorgeous tree. It looks like a human. I mean, it's it's like an ent from Lord of the
Rings. It's, it's incredible. And we just walked around and had just continued the kind of
conversation that we had in the thrift store. And then we sat down on a bench and then the
conversation got more serious. So you can because you were the one who felt like you
had stuff to say to me.

NORM
Yeah. It's a, it's a problem that a lot of men have of a certain age. But, E.D. I didn't want to
fall for somebody, and then her, let her down. You know, being a male and living with
being a male all your life, you know, you you rate yourself according to certain body parts
working. And when they're not working so well anymore, you want especially for a woman
who's younger than you. I thought, I don't want to waste her time. I'd love to, I'd love to be
in her life. And I'll be her friend. But I have to be level. I have to level with her.

JEANNE
I said, "you know, I hadn't actually thought about that." But I said, "there's a lot of other fun
stuff you can do." So I said, "so do you like to do other stuff? Cough, cough." And I was
trying to kind of keep it like sincerely let him know that it was not a problem for me and that
just to sort of keep it a little bit light because I already just thought this guy is so cool. And I
actually love to [expletive]. I do. But, and I knew that we would be doing it sometimes. I
love to do other stuff, too. I love to have fun and laugh and use your imagination. There
are so many other things that we can do. And quite frankly, then I was 57 and I thought,
"well, it would be ridiculous of me to give up my wildling, my beautiful smart wildling just
because he doesn't have the plumbing he did 20 years before." When we talk about oh I
wish we'd met then and then. Yeah, sure I do too sometimes.

NORM
Yeah, yeah. And so there wasn't anything where I'm committed to you. We I think we just
kind of we just kind of felt it, you know? I am committed to you.

JEANNE
Yes. Right back atcha.

NORM
When we get older, I guess sooner or later I guess we’ll probably end up somewhere. We
both have houses. We both have lots of stuff. And it would be a lot of work.

JEANNE
Right. I mean, one thing that I really admired so much, I appreciated it so much because
he's very supportive of me and how my life because I have teenagers that are still living at
home, it is different than his life.

NORM
You were different. You were entirely different from anyone I'd ever dated. I didn't believe
you existed. Immediately, it was her vibe. It was the chemistry that we had, and chemistry,
as you know, as anybody who has feelings knows, chemistry is real important in a
relationship. I mean, she's, she's my drug. I enjoy her company. I mean, we have
discussions and she's really good at being honest. If I say something that's bothering her,
if I've, I've said something that, that hurt her feelings and it wasn't my intention, but it came
out that way. She lets me know. She calls me on it, but she doesn't call me in a, in a mean
way or an angry way.

JEANNE
That first year was so fun and so beautiful and very emotional and exciting and wonderful.
But it was also very rocky. We were learning each other and, you know, a 57 year old and
a 67 year old, we both had baggage from other relationships that we were dealing with. It
didn't even happen that often that we would get into these moments of tension. I mean,
weeks could go by weeks and weeks or, y'know, month and a half. And then some normal
tension that wasn't even about usually anything we could remember now, oh except for the
bike incident. That's the one. That was the bike riding incident.

NORM
The first one of the second one?

JEANNE
They were like.
NORM
There were two bike incidents.

JEANNE
Oh, were there, really? There are times when you would be like, "oh I don't know if I can
do this. I don't." It's like I would sort of look at you. I remember one time you said to me, "I
don't know if I can be in a relationship. I just I feel like I'm bad at it. I feel like I get mad too
easily. And I'm just it's it causes me anxiety and stress." I think you had anxiety about
displeasing me because most of our relationship was so almost idyllic and fun that when
we would get in to little normal tiffs about conflicts, what small, small things that you
thought it was a sign of impending doom like, oh, this is just gonna keep happening more
and more. I said, "well, no, this is kind of normal. And if you're going to hold me to the level
of being your hippy fairy queen, perfect little sex kitten that we just only have fun and talk
about politics and the Beatles. I can't live up to that. I'm human, too. I'm gonna be moody
sometimes, too."

NORM
We've told each other you're the one. Yeah. Before I, I never quite figured out why didn't
this feel right? But there's something missing. I don't, I don't get it. And I was always the
one that would say, "we gotta stop seeing each other." But then when I met her, it was just
like, oh, no, we just. It was like meeting your soul mate. It sounds sounds real cliche, but it
was it was like meeting your soul mate.

JEANNE
Oh, yeah.

NORM & JEANNE

All I do is dream of you. I'm holding you closer it seems. Look in my eyes. Do you realize
I'm lost, lost in a dream.

LAURA STASSI
Norm wrote the song you're hearing for Jeanne. Not only did they have fun together, but
Jeanne serves as Norm's muse. Norm and Jeanne have been together for three years
now. They're not married. They're not living together. They've never even said out loud the
C-word, "commitment," until I interviewed them. But you heard them. They're committed.
The relationship they built together works for them.

JEANNE
Lost, lost in a dream.

LAURA STASSI
We've got one more story about what commitment can look like. It's from Diane Rehm.
And it's both old fashioned and modern. We'll be right back.

NORM & JEANNE

Look in my eyes, do you realize I'm lost, lost in a dream and repeat that. Lost, lost in a
dream.

NORM
Lost, lost in a dream.

LAURA STASSI
This week, my producer told me about a first date her neighbor went on. They went on a
bike ride and stayed six feet apart. They supposedly had fun, but I don't know about that.
How about you? In these days of physical distancing, how are you connecting socially?
Are you even attempting to get a new relationship off the ground? Let us know by calling
202-895-gray and leaving a voicemail. I would love to hear from you. 202-895-gray.
Marriage is the traditional way to express commitment, but that doesn't mean we have to
incorporate all of the elements like changing your name or even living together. Which
brings me to Diane Rehm. She really needs no introduction. She's the living legend who
hosted a daily news show from NPR for more than 20 years. Diane was married to John
Rehm for more than 50 years. During the last nine years of their marriage, John suffered
from Parkinson's and he made the decision to end his life by refusing to eat, drink or
accept medication. Diane told me that after John died, dating was the furthest thing from
her mind, let alone remarriage. But that was before an old acquaintance reached out to
reconnect.

DIANE REHM
We actually met for the first time more than 30 years ago. We had a mutual friend and we
were both at his home and he was with his wife. I was with my husband and we barely
said two words. He told me later he heard my voice across the room and said to himself,
"Oh, Diane Rehm's here." But we did not chat and there was no connection whatsoever.
And then when my last book On My Own came out, he sent me a letter, not an email, but a
letter and said, "you know, you and I met through so-and-so and I lost my wife and I'm
living now here in Florida. And if you're around in Florida, I'd love to take you for a cup of
coffee." He didn't say a drink. He didn't say lunch. He said a cup of coffee. And I wrote him
and I said, "how nice to hear from you. As a matter of fact, I'll be in Orlando next month.
And if you'd like to come, I'd be happy to say hello. And it would be lovely to see you."

LAURA STASSI
[00:25:44] How did you, when you got this letter from virtually a stranger, even though he
said that you had met, what were you feeling at that time?

DIANE REHM
Well, I remembered the name. I didn't remember what he looked like. I just thought of our
mutual friend. And I thought since this fellow identified himself as a Lutheran pastor,
retired, working in hospice down in Florida, I just thought out of courtesy, I should respond
to that letter. So that's what I did. So I get down to Orlando. There are 1500 people in the
audience. 500 had paid extra to come through a line to shake my hand and have me sign
their book. He was one of the 500, walked up, introduced himself, and I said, "oh, how nice
to see you. And thank you for your letter and thanks for coming." He hugged me. We
kissed each other.
LAURA STASSI
Oh.

DIANE REHM
And had a photograph taken and then he walked away. And as he walked away, he turned
around and looked at me. And I turned around and looked at him.

LAURA STASSI
At the same time.

DIANE REHM
And something happened.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, magic!

DIANE REHM
That's all I can tell you. That's all I can tell you.

LAURA STASSI
You know, I've been looking for magical moments. Everybody kind of laughs at me when
I'm thinking there's so much element of timing and magic involved I think in falling in love.

DIANE REHM
Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. And I certainly cannot say I fell in love at that moment. But he's
a tall, wonderful looking man and very gracious and just warm and I felt a lovely
connection, but certainly not love.

LAURA STASSI
Right. But an indescribable "bing!" Like electricity.

DIANE REHM
Something, something, something. When I got back to Washington, I still wasn't thinking
about him. But he sent me another e-mail this time saying, "you know, I'd really like to get
to know you better. Could I come to Washington to visit you?" And, you know, my very
proper self said, "well, you're welcome to come. There's a hotel a few miles away. And if
you'd like to come and spend a couple of days, that's fine with me." And so he did come up
and he and I were enjoying ourselves. And I said, "tell me why you're here." And he said,
"because I love you."

LAURA STASSI
Oh my goodness!

DIANE REHM
And I said, "well, I think that's ridiculous. You don't really know me." And he said, "yes, I
do. I know you through your books. I know you through your radio program. I know who
and what you are and what you stand for. And I have fallen in love with you." And I said,
"well, I'm not there, period." And then when he got home, he wrote and asked me to come
down to Florida to see his home, to meet his son and his family. So I thought about that for
a bit. And I thought, well, OK. I came back to Washington and he wrote again and came up
again and we spent more time.

LAURA STASSI
So I'm sorry. I'm assuming when you went to stay with him, visit him, you stayed in his
house, but you stayed in one of the other bedrooms.

DIANE REHM
I certainly did.

LAURA STASSI
Was it weird being in the same house with him?

DIANE REHM
No. I just wanted to know him. I'm wanted to know his life. I wanted to know how he spent
his time.

LAURA STASSI
What point was it where you thought, "okay. He's, he's already said he loves me." And it's
only growing, I'm assuming, on his side. Was there a moment where you thought, "you
know what, I love you, too?"

DIANE REHM
I began thinking about what aloneness would be like as I grew older. And so I think that
there were simply many moments watching him and being with him and seeing how much
he cared for me. And how much he demonstrated his care for me that helped my
appreciation for him turn into love.

LAURA STASSI
So when was the point that you decided to get married? It sounds like it was a beautiful
long distance romance.

DIANE REHM
Finally, we just both decided, well, let's get married.

LAURA STASSI
You know, I think it's certainly understandable for people to think, why get married?
Because then you're you know, you're going to have the legal aspects of one of you is
going to go before the other one goes.

DIANE REHM
Sure.

LAURA STASSI
And maybe neither one of you want to take that on anymore.

DIANE REHM
Sure. But I'm old fashioned. And for the sake of my grandchildren, I decided that living
together was not a good example. So for me, the idea of living together just didn't fit my
personality, did not fit my thinking, did not fit my upbringing, did not fit my way of life.

LAURA STASSI
Right. So you wanted to be legally married?
DIANE REHM
Absolutely.

LAURA STASSI
And at the same time, you aren't living together.

DIANE REHM
Well, he maintains his work as a hospice chaplain in West Palm Beach. I maintain my
work here. We are each quite comfortable.

LAURA STASSI
But you're saying the reason you wanted to get married is so that when you do spend time
together, you're spending time together as husband and wife?

DIANE REHM
Absolutely.

LAURA STASSI
You're not spending time together as girlfriend or boyfriend.

DIANE REHM
Right.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah, okay. But was it a discussion when you were talking about getting married or was,
did John know that you were not gonna be moving to Florida?

DIANE REHM
Yes.

LAURA STASSI
And he knew that he couldn't leave Florida?

DIANE REHM
Right.

LAURA STASSI
So that was OK. It was.

DIANE REHM
Right.

LAURA STASSI
Just like fine. Yeah. We'll be married and.

DIANE REHM
Yeah.
LAURA STASSI
Have a long distance relationship.

DIANE REHM
Works well.

LAURA STASSI
I could see that there would be some times where it's nice to, to you know, to know that
you've got this partner, but that you both, you know you had full and complete lives when
you came together.

DIANE REHM
Exactly.

LAURA STASSI
So there's no need to have to, you know, compromise on who you already are.

DIANE REHM
Exactly.

LAURA STASSI
Has there ever been a moment where you thought, oh, I wish you were here?

DIANE REHM
Sure. There are times when I say, "oh, I wish John were here. I miss him." But I'm still
absolutely happy the way things are.

LAURA STASSI
For Diane, marriage is important, but the name change and living together, elements of
marriage? They didn't fit into her definition of commitment. Diane's become an advocate
for talking about end of life issues and the right to die on one's own terms. She and her
husband, John Hagedorn, both have full happy lives when they're together and whether
apart. If you want to hear more from Diane, she hosts a podcast called On My Mind. It's
also from WAMU, where we produce Dating While Gray. And she's got a new book out,
When My Time Comes.

You know, when I got married, I happily took my husband's last name, but before my
divorce was even final, I gave it back. I legally returned to my last name, Stassi. It did feel
a little weird at first. I had been known by my ex's last name longer than I had been known
by my own. On the other hand, it felt wrong for me to be identified by my married name
when I was no longer a wife. I don't think I'll ever change my name again, but I did leave
room for a hyphen. I think marriage still feels like the ideal expression of commitment for
me, but who knows? After all, it takes two people to agree on their definition of
commitment.

Dating While Gray is produced by Poncie Rutsch, Patrick Fort, Ruth Tam, Julia Karron and
me, Laura Stassi. Our theme music is by Daniel Peterschmidt and Patrick Fort mixed this
episode. WAMU's general manager is J.J. Yore and Andi McDaniel oversees everything
we make here. We'd love to hear from you. Send an e-mail to datingwhilegray@wamu.org.
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Thanks for listening, we'll be back next time with more stories of Dating While Gray.