1/6/2011 Scientific numerics in complex systems…

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12-23-2007, 07:05 PM #1

Join Date: Aug 2002

Michael Bush Location: Greenwood, Nebraska USA
Posts: 32,829

Scientific numerics in complex systems

I realize everyone would like to think what they are measuring is scientific. Things like
weight, temperature, volume are simple to quantify and therefore seem very sc ientific
when trying to prove something one way or the other. The problem is that even fairly
simple systems are more c omplicated than just a simple measurement. We often express
these more c omplex things with vague statements suc h as "it's not heavy, it's just
awkward". This is a way of expressing that although we know (from a sc ientific point of
view) that if we put this item on a sc ale it will not say that it weighs much more than
objec ts that we can easily lift, this objec t is very diffic ult to lift. We feel that weight
should translate into how diffic ult it is to lift, but we also know that the reality is that it
doesn't.

Weight is only one aspect of how difficult something is to lift. Any objec t where we end
up with a lot of weight a long ways from our body is "awkward". The leverage of the
weight is against us in suc h a way as to put far more stress on our bac ks than the weight
of the object would seem to indic ate. That's because how difficult something is to lift or
move, is not just about weight. It's about leverage and mechanic al advantage and
disadvantage. It's also about how quickly we can set the object down or how gently we
have to set the object down.

Moving fifty pound bags of grain where I can drop them or throw them into a pile, is much
easier than fifty pound boxes of bees and honey that need to be set down gently. It's
also about how far we have to bend over to get to it and how far we have to bend over
to set it down. Weight is only one small aspect of the whole issue.

An eight frame box is much easier to handle than it's weight would indic ate. True it
weighs less than a ten frame box of otherwise equal circumstanc es (full of honey, same
depth etc .), but the weight you eliminated was the two frames furthest from your body,
meaning that the mechanic al disadvantage of those two frames was much greater than
the rest of them. So looking at it from one simple measurement (weight) is misleading. We
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need to take into ac count many other things. These are things that probably c an be
quantified, but doing so is muc h more complex. Trying to figure out the "mechanical
weight" (meaning the weight times the mechanical advantage or disadvantage) is muc h
more complic ated than just putting it on a scale and weighing it.

I bring this up, not just to talk about boxes, but about things in general and about other
things like the thermodynamic s of a wintering hive. I am not attempting here to explain
the answer to the thermodynamic s of a hive, but merely to try to outline the question
and show that metrics is more complicated that it appears. Lets see how many significant
aspec ts of the thermodynamic s of a wintering hive we can list.

o Temperature. This is the simple one. It's easy to measure temperature by putting a
thermometer where you want to measure it. Measure the temperature of the distant
points in the hive and in the c luster and on the edge of the c luster and outside the hive.
These are the "facts" usually used to try to explain the thermodynamics of a winter hive.
These fac ts are one very small piece of the whole picture.

o Heat production. The cluster is produc ing heat. You can argue all day that they don't
heat the hive, and obviously that is not their intent, but they do produc e heat in the hive
and that heat dissipates into the hive and, depending on other factors, into the outside,
at some rate. This is a "thermostatically" controlled source of heat in that the bees will
produce more heat as the temperatures dec line to make up for heat loss, or less as it
warms up. The temperature in your house is the same with the back door open or closed,
but that doesn't mean that leaving it open doesn't matter. A thermostatically c ontrolled
environment can be misleading when we try to measure it in temperature and don't take
into account heat loss.

o Respiration. There is a change in humidity in the hive cause by the metabolic processes
of the bees. This water is put into the air by respiration. It is warm and moist air. This
changes the humidity and the humidity c hanges other aspects.

o Humidity. The moisture in the air changes many other aspec ts of the thermodynamic s
as it c auses more heat transfer by convection, more heat that is stored by the air, more
condensation and less evaporation. We express this differenc e when referring to the
weather in things like "it was hot but it was a dry heat" or "it wasn't the cold, it was the
dampness".

o Condensation. Condensation of water gives off heat. There is water c ondensing on the
cold sides and lid of the hive all through the winter and this affec ts the temperature.
Condensation is caused by a temperature differenc e between a surface and the air
contacting that surface. It oc curs when the humidity of the air is high enough that when
the air is cooled on the surfac e, the air (now cooler) c an no longer hold that amount of
humidity.

o Evaporation. Water that has condensed and run down the sides to the bottom or
dripped on the bees, evaporates. This absorbs heat as it evaporates. Wet bees have to
burn up a huge amount of energy to evaporate water that has dripped on them. Puddles
of water on the bottom continue to absorb heat until they evaporate.

o Thermal Mass. The mass of all of the honey in the hive holds heat and dissipates heat
over time. It changes the time period over whic h c hanges in temperatures occ ur. It holds
a lot of the heat that is in the hive. A lot of cold honey can keep a hive cold even when
it's warm out. A lot of warm honey can keep a hive warmer even when its c old out. It
moderates the effec ts of temperature changes and it holds and gives off heat. This is
more related to the amount of heat in the system than the temperature. A large mass of
moderate temperature may ac tually hold more heat than a small mass of higher
temperature.

o Air Exchange. I am splitting this out from c onvec tion, although convec tion is involved,
because I am differentiating an exchange of air with the outside as opposed to
convection taking place within the hive. Outside air coming into the hive is essential to
the bees having enough oxygen for aerobic metabolism , but the more of it there is the
more it affec ts the temperatures in the hive. If this is minimized during winter, the
temperature in the hive will exceed the temperature outside the hive. If it is too minimized
the bees will suffoc ate. If it is too maximized the bees will have to work much harder to
maintain the heat of the c luster. Even if you were to increase this gradually to the point
of the inside and outside temperatures being indistinguishable, more air exc hange from
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that point would not change the temperatures, inside, outside or of the cluster but WILL
cause more heat loss to the c luster thereby causing them to make more heat to
compensate. If you rely only on measuring temperature you will not see this differenc e.

o Convec tion within the hive. Convec tion is how an object with some thermal mass and
therefore some kinetic heat, loses it's heat to the air. The air on the surfac e either picks
up or gives off heat (depending on the direc tion of the heat difference) and if the air
heats up it rises bringing more cool air into it's plac e. If it cools it sinks bringing more
warm air into it's place. Things that bloc k air or divide it into layers will add to warmth.
That's how things like blankets and quilts work. They c reate dead space where the air
can't move so easily. A vacuum thermos works on the principle that if there is no air, it
can't carry away the heat by convec tion. The more open space there is in the hive, the
more convec tion can take plac e. The more you limit things to layers the less c onvection
takes place. We sometimes refer to an excess of c onvection in our houses as "it was 70
degrees in the house but it was drafty".

o Conduc tion. Conduction is how the heat moves through an object. Take the outside
wall of a hive. At night if it's c older outside, it absorbs heat from the inside that comes
from c onvec tion (warmer air against it's surface) and heat from radiation (heat radiating
from the cluster) and that heat warms the wood. The rate at which that heat moves
through the wood to the outside is its conductivity. The heat is conduc ted to the outside
where convection c arries off the heat from the surface. On a sunny day on the South
side, the sun will heat the wall, the heat will move by conduc tion through the wall to the
inside where convec tion will transfer the heat to the air. Insulation or Styrofoam hives will
slow down c onduction.

o Radiation. Radiation is the process in whic h energy is emitted by one body, transmitted
through an intervening medium or space without significantly affecting the temperature of
the medium, and absorbed by another body. A heat lamp or heat from a fire are tangible
examples of this. In the case of a wintering hive the two main sourc es of radiant heat are
the cluster and the sun. During a sunny day the radiant heat of the sun hits the side of
the hive and turns into kinetic heat and is transferred by c onduc tion to the inside of the
hive. The radiant heat from the c luster hits the surrounding c ombs of honey and walls,
cover and bottom. Some is absorbed by the honey and walls, and some is reflected back.
The amount is dependent on how close the cluster is and how reflec tive the surface is.
Real life experience of radiant heat would be being in the sun on an otherwise c ool day or
putting a thermometer in the sun and getting a dramatically different reading than one in
the shade.

o Temperature differences. The amount of the difference in temperatures between the

cluster and the outside is a significant factor. If your outside temperatures in winter
average say 32 F and your lows are rarely 0 F the significanc e of some of these things
may be minimal. On the other hand if your winters often have subzero temperatures of -
20 to -40 F for long periods then these issues are muc h more signific ant.

The real question is, "How do all of these interact in a wintering hive?"

One c lue to understand some of it is by watching the bees. They adjust based on what
they are experiencing as far as heat loss, rather than what it says on the thermometer.
The c luster is drawn to the place where they lose less heat. This should be a c lue to us
on where and how they are losing heat.

My point is, if you look at most things they are muc h more complicated than a simple
measurement and yet we have a tendency to try to reduc e them to that.
__________________
Michael Bush www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

12-23-2007, 10:00 PM #2

Join Date: Sep 2007

rantcliff Location: Hampton, VA, USA
Posts: 58

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impressive!
__________________
Newbee Rich
Antcliff Farms

12-24-2007, 10:33 AM #3

Join Date: Nov 2007

panubee Location: Monroe, PA, USA
Posts: 30

Thermodynamics

Michael,

Excellent introduction in how heat moves through systems.

The only thing I would like to add relates to conduc tion. Radiation moves heat (energy)
through spac e using electro-magnetic waves. Examples would inc lude visible light, but
primary mechanisms are infra- red waves. Dark (blac k) surfaces absorb energy from
radiated sources at a higher rate than light (white) surfac es. In the absenc e of a
radiating source, dark surfaces emit radiated energy more than light surfaces.

I don't know if this helps you with your beekeeping skills.

Thanks for your post.

Mike

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