GIRL POWER, CREATIVE YOUTH DEVELOPMENT, AND THE CHOIR

ALYSIA LEE

EMILIE: ​Author and activist, bell hooks writes, “To understand the complexity of black girlhood,
we need more work that documents that reality in all its variations and diversity. There is no one
story of black girlhood.” In today’s episode, conductor Alysia Lee speaks about the diversity of
girls’ perspectives, sensibilities, and experiences. In her work with the Sister Cities Girlchoir, she
creates opportunities for girls to collectively narrate their own past and present experiences as
well as their connections to historical, social, political, and economic futures.

EMILIE: ​Alysia is an artist, arts educator, teaching artist and arts advocate who received
national recognition for advancing access, equity, visibility, representation, and power-sharing
between artists, organizations, and communities. Key to her methods are empowerment,
partnership construction, and intersectional approaches to community exchange while centering
anti-racism, creativity, and justice.

MUSIC:​ I AM - VOICES21C, produced by Carey Shunskis

ALYSIA: ​Very early on, I learned that there is a special magic in sorority. There is a special
magic in women coming together to uplift other women. There is a special magic in women
telling each other their stories. And there's a special strength in that circle and it's different. And
so, my understanding of affinity spaces, spaces where people who share a common identity can
come together and rest and grow and connect and empower one another, I think is so
important. And so, Sister Cities is all about that.

MUSIC:​ Bright Ideas - Shin Suzuma

ANDRÉ:​ Support for The Choral Commons comes from the University of San Diego, the Karen
and Tom Mulvaney Center for Community, Awareness, and Social Action and the College of
Arts and Sciences Arts Engagement Initiative.

EMILIE:​ USD’s Arts Engagement Initiative supports artistic action embedded in and responsive
to ever-changing social, cultural and political circumstances, deep and meaningful engagement
with community, and increased access to the arts on the USD campus and beyond.

ANDRÉ:​ The Choral Commons is a community where choral music practitioners and
organizations can gather in order to envision equity-centered choral futures. With our
community and creative partners, we hope to empower choral practitioners with additional
strategies for innovation, grounded in culturally responsive, critical and equity-centered values.

EMILIE:​ My name is Emilie Amrein,

ANDRÉ:​ And I’m André de Quadros,

EMILIE:​ And this is the Choral Commons Podcast.

EMILIE: ​Alysia Lee is the Founder and Artistic Director of Sister Cities Girlchoir, the El
Sistema-inspired, girl empowerment, choral academy in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New
Jersey. She is the education program supervisor for Fine Arts education for the Maryland State
Department of Education where she shares her vision of statewide equity and excellence across
five arts disciplines: music, dance, visual arts, theatre, and media arts.

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EMILIE: ​Well Alysia, thank you so much for meeting with us today. It is really wonderful to be
able to have a conversation about your work and about this time. And so I wondered, before we
dive in to the work itself, I wondered if you could give us a sense of, first of all, what it feels like
where you are. Right, cause are you in Philadelphia, is that right?

ALYSIA: ​I'm in Baltimore.

EMILIE: ​You're in Baltimore, right. OK, because Sister Cities girls choir is based in Philadelphia,
Baltimore and Camden, NJ. OK, so tell us, how are things? How are things feeling in Baltimore
in this very intense time with the pandemic and the uprising and everything like that?

ALYSIA: ​Absolutely well, first thank you guys for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Um, we've
been Facebook friends I think for awhile and of course I've been following your work and very
excited to collaborate and connect in this way. It's interesting to ask what it feels like being in
Baltimore because I, I really don't know the answer to that because I've been in my house since
March 13th, so all of my connections to the outside world have been through all of my social
justice warrior friends who are connected. And so I only really have a sense of what it's like in
Pennsylvania, Baltimore, and New Jersey. And they’re like one place you know. I mean, uh, but
I think one of the things that I'm seeing I'm happening here in Baltimore is there has been a lot
of protesting happening, right? There's been a lot of people coming out putting their bodies on
the line at a really scary time. It feels like protesting in this time, you know, in these weeks ,just
really is symbolic for the sacrifices that people are willing to make. Protesting is always a
dangerous thing to encounter, even just begin. Peaceful protesting is dangerous, right? And so
what we're seeing is just people really showing up, and I think that's really inspiring.

ALYSIA: ​In Baltimore this week we had the pulling down, I think it made national news, of the
Christopher Columbus statue in Little Italy, and a group of organizers organized a really
beautiful ceremony to pull the statue down and they dumped it in the Inner Harbor. And, uh, the,
the statue has since been rescued with the promise that it will return to its pedestal, and those
activists have also vowed that they will take it down again. So I think that is the spirit of what I
would say, like Eastern Seaboard America, right? Like we are, I think as a group, just like one of
the things that kind of categorizes these like Northern I-95 people, um is the spirit of
togetherness. Um, a spirit of justice. Uhm, you know that the Boston Tea Party all the way down
to last week when the green Christopher Columbus came down. Like people are willing to come
together across differences to stand up for what's right. And so that's an exciting part, an
exciting community to be a part of.

ANDRÉ: ​So let's let's back, back a little bit away from these systemic issues and tell us a little
bit about your life trajectory as much, as you want to share with people listening, tell us, tell us.
Give us a brief bio sketch.

ALYSIA: ​Sure, so brief bio sketch of me. I'm an army brat, so my dad was in the army and uhm,
when I was about five we relocated and set center, center home based in Baltimore, MD. And
Baltimore is home for us in many ways, right? It's home for us in that I was raised there. I wasn't
born, but I was raised there. My brother was born there. The Earth, something about the
Baltimore soil really called to me and my genealogy and in my blood. So when my grandparents
were about the age I am now, they moved in the great migration to Baltimore in search of a
better life, in search of freedom. So my grandfather and his sister packed their families up and
moved to the North looking for opportunities. And I feel very connected to my home here in
Baltimore. I grew up singing um, lots of singing in my home and not a lot of singing out in my
community space.

ANDRÉ: ​Not a lot of singing in your, in your community space? Explain that.

ALYSIA: ​I would say no, none, no, no singing in my community space until I was about 13.
Before that I really associated myself and envisioned myself and identified as an academic
person. And singing to me seemed like something that was a little more emotional. Maybe a
little silly, and definitely something that made me feel very comforted because I sang with my
family a lot at home. We made a lot of music at home, but it felt like a more of a private, intimate
thing, not something to share with friends. So I never was in choir in school, nothing, nothing,
never and in middle school, and there was a shift, and I was cast in a school play. And the
reason I was cast in his play was I was in, uh, what is it called a carpool? And the two drop offs
of the carpool were soccer practice and the play. And so my first inkling was I said I’ll try soccer.
I don't want to be in a play. So I tried soccer for two practices, I almost called them rehearsals.
'cause that's how much of an artist I am, and one of my closest friends who I still love dearly
said to me, “You're really bad at this and you're kind of embarrassing me.”

ALYSIA: ​So I switched over to the play and I was in Fame the Musical and I was cast as one of
the music students and I got three solos and that I mean, I was blown away by they were like
oh, can you sing and I was like I can sing but I don't sing but I guess I'll do that I'd rather be here
uhm and so I found this community of people right. We were even in fame right? Which is a
musical about, about LaGuardia high school, right? This adaptation we were all still in those
segments of like the music kids. The kids were playing the music kids. We built this great bond
together and the dancer kids who are playing the dancer students. Same thing.

ANDRÉ: ​And this is when you were thirteen. Is that what you said?

ALYSIA: ​I was thirteen, so that was a critical time because thirteen, that's when you can apply
for high school in Baltimore. And so just that fast we're talking about from September to the play
was in December, I was like, oh my whole life is different. I'm an artist. I didn't know that. This
kind of community. This is the kind of community these are, the kind of people that I want to be
around. People who are striving and curious. These are the kind of people I want to know. This
is my bag and the other stuff is not my bag and also it adds to the bag of being an artist, right?
So I still consider myself an intellectual and academic. But I was thirteen so I changed my whole
thing. I had planned going into eighth grade to apply to inter baccalaureate programs and pre
law high school programs, and I applied to none of those. I applied for performing arts high
schools, so it was a right at the right time and I went into performing arts high school and the
rest is history. I went to the best high school in the planet, Carver Center for arts and technology
and just, you know, radical piernas right? This idea, like really giving kids the opportunity to
engage with adults as peers, and rising to the occasion was a very big part of my high school
experience. High expectations, uh, artistic community, and that's what I was looking for. That's
how I developed.

MUSIC​: I am - VOICES21C, produced by Carey Shunskis

EMILIE: ​Can we talk a little bit about the critical age that thirteen year old moment, right?
Because you have now dedicated your life to working with girls and in this kind of age range to a
certain extent. So what is it about the development of girls and the musical development and
their identities? Tell me, like, let's flesh out this age range and why it's such a potent time.

ALYSIA: ​Absolutely so very early on in my research I found all this information about the girl
effect which was at the time being really applied only in third world countries and now is widely
thought to be something that we can apply here in the United States. But it's this idea that we
can invest in adolescent girls. They have the social, political and emotional power in capital in
their communities and in their families to make transformative change for the next generation.
So we're talking about being able to really switch over intergenerational poverty in one
generation. Can happen through investing in girls, right for a whole community. Whether that girl
has children or not I know that to be true. So women just take care of their community. They
elevate an entire community. So I was really inspired by that. 'cause I know it to be true. I know
about the strong women in my own family, and in my community who just set and established a
tone of comfort and care and accountability and love that really helped me at growing up.
Helped my family growing up to survive and thrive. And so I knew that to be true just from, from
an instinctual place.

ALYSIA: ​When I saw that I was in the El Sistema fellowship at NEC, at the time, thinking I
would build a choral program or I would be an arts administrator for an orchestral program, and
that wasn't very exciting to me. I went into the program. I was the first singer in the program.
They were only accepting instrumentalists and I went into the program on the platform of social
justice without social justice in music making, is song driven. I mean people can, you know,
there's other ways to think about it, but when you're talking about action and momentum, I don't
see people bringing cellos to the marches. I see them bringing their voices. So there is an
aspect of social change, but it's really youth development when you're talking about an
orchestral program. You're talking about using youth, empowering use, giving them a space to
create together, and that's wonderful. I wouldn't take away from that, but when you're talking
about social change and music, you're talking about singing. You’re talking about words, the
removal of any abstractions. We're here to give you a message to tell you what we believe in to
unite ourselves, inspire. And that has to be done with words. So, uhm, so I went off with that. I
applied with that, they accepted me with that. So I had the, you know, the freedom and the
leeway to do a choral thing, but I thought maybe I'll do like a choral/orchestral thing.

ALYSIA: ​And I kept thinking, well, I gotta work at this place. And whatever place I build, I gotta
work there, and I don't want to work. I want to work. I want to work with singers. I want to build a
community, a professional community. People who are passionate about song and singing.
Value singing the way I value it. I don't want to, I don't want to work anywhere else. So um,
when the research balance with which is what I tell, social entrepreneurs all the time. You gotta
build something you want to come to and you gotta build something other people want to come
to. So you use the research and use the information from the communities needs. And then you
also use what do I want to spend my time doing? I mean Sister Cities is something I spend, I'm
not going to say how many hours a week, but two many. To keep running and keep going
together and also now more human beings are doing the same, dedicating more hours of their
life to keeping it afloat and keeping it present. Keeping the programming excellent, keep you
know, being reflective and all of that. So that's how Sister Cities kind of came into being.

ANDRÉ: ​Then why did you give it the name Sister Cities? Where is that in? I tried to look for
that. Actually, maybe I wasn’t looking in the right place, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t figure out what
you gave it that name.

ALYSIA: ​Yes, well, we always knew that there would be a network. So one of the cool things
about El Sistema that really inspired me. I mean, the musical excellence inspires me, right?
Seeing children really playing beyond what we think of in the United States as possible for
children. One of my favorite memories in Venezuela was being in Caracas and visiting a class
of three year olds who were singing in two part harmony and that's kind of bizarre. We don't
think of that being possible. Obviously it is, these children are doing it, but we don't think about it
being possible the way that we scaffold and tier our Music Ed here in the United States. So that
was very inspiring. But the other thing that was inspiring. And then I heard students talk about,
in different ways right which have to listen closely, was this idea of a network. Knowing I'm
living, this lived experience here, I'm being celebrated in my community where I am and the
world is bigger than that. There's people a hundred miles from me who I know who are living
experiences similar to mine and different than mine, and I know them. I'm connected to them.
We make music together. The kids in Caracas would talk about going, you know, to, off to
Falcone right to the coast to perform in these system is known for those scenarios where you
bring kids together and you guys play a piece of music and everybody goes home right. They
love that experience. And it wasn't just about the kids standing on stage together, it's about the
powerful image that, that that creates of that network. They are all connected.

ANDRÉ: ​But I say it's interesting to hear you saying that because I was also in Caracas and I
saw the, uh, we actually launched, Conductors Without Borders in Caracas many years ago and
we had a group of, a small group of us. But I think one of the things about El Sistema as you
know, it's very focused on the western classical canon and you're not focused on the Western
Classical canon. And so, so you, you found inspiration in some of it, but not all of it. And of
course, as you, as you might know, I don't think the space for us to talk about it here, but, but
there are, there are issues and questions and like, like everything that happens in our field of
music and music education should be interrogated and should be, should be questioned. And
so there are questions about El Sistema, just like there should be questions about my work and
about your work and I'm just wondering if you can kind of see talk about El Sistema as a
springboard, but not as kind of a…

ALYSIA: ​For me personally, I, I'm, I'm not an imitator. I'm a creative person, so I would never
think to go and look at something and just replant it somewhere else. That doesn't make sense
to me, you know, I mean, but I think to me I was looking for what are the best parts of it and how
that I identify. Then also, what are the parts of the transplantable to my community? And not all
of it was. Uhm, I have very strong feelings about censoring the Western canon in any
educational music program. I'm very anti that.

ANDRÉ: ​Well, tell us about why your anti, that.

ALYSIA: ​I meant by that, because I think it's racist model that propagates and props up white
supremacy to young children and I don't think that's OK.

ANDRÉ: ​So I don't think we were going to have a lot of difference of opinion, but, but, but, but I
think for, for somebody who went to NEC, and NEC is in no way particularly different in terms of
the canon of work, the way, the way people think about composers about repertoires, practices
of, of behaviors in performance, about dress about coding, social codes and social scripts.
That's fairly typical of conservatives not just in the United States, but you know pretty much
worldwide. So I'm trying to see where, where, where, if somebody is listening to you who is a
music student that you might say, “But what's wrong with liking Bach and why can't we have
Bach?

ALYSIA:​ Oh sure! Absolutely nothing is wrong with liking Bach. I went to Peabody. I like Bach. I
don't love Bach. Not my favorite. I'm a Romantic girl, but there's nothing wrong with liking
classical music. What's wrong is when you're educating children, telling them that the center of
music making, the epitome of the grandiose of deeply thoughtful music making, right that music
making at its highest form is Western classical music. That's what's wrong. So there's nothing
wrong with as you age developing likes and dislikes. Educators have to think beyond their likes
and dislikes. Like I said, I don't. I'm not a Bach fan. I wouldn't go to a whole Bach concert. That
doesn't mean because I don't personally like Bach, if I was teaching a class about Baroque
music that I would skip it because it's not personally appealing to me. That doesn't make sense,
and it doesn't make sense for us to bring in our personal opinions about music making into an
educational space.

ANDRÉ: ​Of course, and and, and and and. It's not just the Conservatory, so here we should
embrace what you're saying, Alysia, because the whole of music education is drenched with
whiteness.

ALYSIA: ​I think mostly about you know pre K to 12 grade as being the place where a lot of
these changes can occur. I think a music education in America to me, what a good Music
Education is, is the music education that prioritizes creativity and the creation of new work
through the ideas of concepts like children responding creatively in the different arts disciplines.
Through a big idea or point of inquiry, right? So engaging their curiosity around big ideas to
create new work and through that intrinsically motivating them to also understand the history
and the skills that it's needed to make the art that they want to make and not the opposite, not a
music education that's rooted in skills in history and especially not one that enters Europe in
that. Do you know what I mean? So that's what I'm pushing for.

ANDRÉ: ​I don't know, uh, how much you know about the work that Emilie now I've been doing,
and suddenly my working in prisons for many years. And you know, if I think about the women I
work with, some of them are really relatively young and most of them are women of color and
uh, and you can see the life sketch that they've had, which is so different in some ways to yours.
And if you think about the growing, fastest growing demographic in conservation happens to be
African American women, young women, and, uh, let's come back to your fantastic Sister Cities
project and, and tell us about how does this. You've got at El Sistema inspiring you. You got a
western classical background. You had these experiences in your teenage years. And you got
all these ideas rattling around in there and then you start this choir and how does that, how is it
figuring out in terms of your social and philosophical points of you lyrics, justice and so forth?
ALYSIA: ​Yeah, I do have a classical back and I do have, you know a Masters degree in vocal
performance right from Peabody. So I do have a classical background. I wouldn't say that’s the
root of my music making. The root of my music making is making music I mean with my family.
And that music is the most important music I've ever made, so I never understood in a real way,
and I also didn't have teachers who enforced this verbally, although I met them later. But in my
early years I didn't have teachers who enforced with us verbally, that music you're listening to, at
home, that's garbage and this is real music that we study at school. I didn't have that, but a lot of
people do right? So I always you know, I'm just like a lot of people. I always had a playlist that
had on my iPad or iPod. Remember those things? We had those big bricks we used to carry
around. I always needed the biggest iPod in my head. I was like I need to because I need the
biggest one 'cause I have so many different kinds of music I listen to. So I was about that.
Everybody did that and as you get older you realize not the case and that some people have
been told explicit messages about what music is valuable, what music is not, so that's another
piece of the philosophy that really invades Sister Cities. You know that we're choosing music not
based on the inherent value of how much our ears love it, or how familiar it is to us as
educators, which is often times how we choose music, right? The music I like. The music that
speaks to me.

ALYSIA: ​We're looking at music from a whole different place. We have a rubric in place. It's
really looking at what are the words and how is this composer making artistic choices based on
the words so that we can have these discussions with the kids about the deep meaning of the
words right, the big idea, and also that there's enough musical material linked to it that they can
learn a musical concepts that we can then teach them as they go. And so there's a lot of music
that I love that we will never, sing 'cause they don't have all that. It's not rich enough in that way,
right? So that's a piece of what's important to me. There is some classical music that's not rich
enough in that way. There is some popular music that's not rich enough in that way. So that's
the bar for me. We’re all about when we perform, you know we have a piece of repertoire we're
thinking a couple things. Just like me like I did when I was a kid, kids continue to do this weird
thing that I don't know why kids do, but I did it as well. When you have a song you love, you'll
write the words in a notebook over and over again. Kids do that all the time. It's very weird. I
used to do it too. I don't know. There's some brain scientists like, Oh yeah, I know why. So if we
know that if, we know that kids kind of hide these words in their heart, how important is it that
every single song you sing of, theirs they’re humming it when they're walking someplace, in the
shower, in an opportune moment there writing these words over and over again in the notebook,
they're holding on to them.

ALYSIA: ​It's important to me that those things are meaty, that they are in their brains, pushing
them to be better people to evaluate the world, to be empathetic, and to be critical thinkers.
That's what's important to me, so I don't care much about anything else. Um, and we've been
very matter of fact with that. So in terms of, like all of the philosophies, a lot of these visions are
my personal philosophies. For instance, if you were not interested in people who think
otherwise. So if you for instance are a funder who said, well, I just think that the kids should
have these opportunities to sing this piece and I don't think you're, that's fine and there's other
programs that are doing that. Our kids have sung, we've premiered pieces with the Philadelphia
Orchestra and traveled to Carnegie Hall. We've performed at the Kennedy Center. We perform
all over the cities everywhere we are, so the kids are getting incredible opportunities that are
deep and rich. And we're doing it in the way that we believe, and I think that's just really
important. Those visions have to be clear so that people know what they're coming into, and so
that the kids know what they're encountering when they arrive.

MUSIC:​ Bright Ideas - Shin Suzuma

EMILIE: ​So can I ask about the, 'cause you mentioned before this idea of creativity and the
music education space? And I know that you're working on this project coming up in the spring
that really, it speaks to this idea of the youth voice as a creative voice, so I'm wondering if you
can talk about how you've incorporated kind of creative practice into your rehearsals and
performances.

ALYSIA: ​Absolutely. I consider one of the deepest jobs of Music Ed to be to develop the
creative and critical orientation of students. So about three years ago, um, at this point, 2018
two years ago, my gosh, it seemed long ago. Maybe that is 3 years. Yeah, that's three. We did
this big project, this year's long composition project that was a citywide composition with Todd
Mac over in the Philadelphia Orchestra, right? Philadelphia voices. Todd would regularly come
in and do these composer workshops with the kids. And before that we were already thinking
about, how can we, as a staff of singers and conductors, reorient ourselves to make more space
for the kids to have time in these spaces. And when they're with us, um, to create new work.
And part of that was also my development, as, as a pedagogue, right? I begin to have a
philosophical premise that an educational space has all four artistic processes, as outlined in
the National Guard standards. I didn't always think that before. And so I began to believe that if
a space does not allow students to respond to music, to connect with their community, to of
course present and to create new work, then it's not an educational space. It's a space. It's a
musical space, but it's not an educational space and we just need to understand.

ALYSIA: ​It's actually connected to the national core art standards, the standards of learning that
have been written by a coalition of folks all across the country, artists and teachers that have
been adopted in most states, right? So there is a fundamental piece that we look at in all
content areas around learning, music, math, science. These are the standards. This means
these are the pillars that allow us to know that students are progressing educationally. If you're a
music educator in a school and you're providing musical education, you are also being
assessed in these four areas, right? Your program would be assessed in these four areas. And I
don't think out of school time people should get a pass on calling something educational when it
is really recreational. And recreation is also important. So it's not to say, oh, your program is
bad. I'm just saying that we might want to call it a youth recreation program through music,
right? So if your kids are coming together and making a Youth Orchestra and just presenting,
that's valuable, right? But it's not educational. Educational would have all four components. And
I began to think that, and so I have to, of course, if I begin to think it, then I shared it with my
staff. We, you know, we read over a lot of the materials and researched together. We all came
to the same conclusion. We wanted to elevate our program in that way.

ALYSIA:​ So that was four years ago. Three years ago we had this opportunity to have Todd
Mac over, who's of course this incredible. He's up at MIT, so he's up in Boston, which all uhm
and composer who was coming to Philadelphia voices the partnership again. The Philadelphia
Orchestra really elevated the partnership. Originally, the partnership was, oh, can you, can you
sing the Star Spangled Banner, can you come and sing the Star Spangled Banner? Can your
kids? First of all, we don't sing the spangled banner so no. We can’t. But we were able to
deepen the relationship so that it wasn't just about them performing something. It was about
them helping to contribute to the work. So when you hear Philadelphia voices, you'll hear words
from Sister Cities Girlchoir. You'll hear melodic material that the kids can identify, and there's
also solos written just for them that Todd wrote specifically for their voices. So being part of that
work was really powerful. We worked with the Jazz singer in town and did the same process on
a smaller scale and so then we were able to launch. We've launched the strategic goals that by
2024 half of all of our performances will have 50%, so 50% of every performance will be original
work.

ALYSIA: ​So last year we started a collaboration with intercultural journeys, which is an amazing
music presenter in Philadelphia. They present as, as the name says, they present a musical
series and each concert is really an opportunity to dive into a cultural musical tradition. A year
ago we wrote a grant to the NEA together for this program called Raise Your Voice. And what it
is, is an opportunity over the course of an entire year. We have four teaching artists who are
committing to this process of helping us to guide the creative process right inspiration, toiling
with the big idea, elevating that idea, appraising the work through a set of success criteria that
elevate and Uplift the work, refining it, and then of course, presenting it when we feel like it's
ready and communicates our ideas the best. So they will be working with us over the course of
four years. We've got a composer. We have a folk dancer from Hawaii. We have a slam poet,
right, all coming together to help guide us and it's also embedded professional development for
our staff so we can see the creative process and learn some different techniques that we can
use for the kids as well. So our program has to elevate. We have to make more space for voice
and agency to be a part of the programming that's from a marketing place 'cause the kids want
that right? The kids want to express themselves also for me, from a philosophical point.

MUSIC:​ I am - VOICES21C, produced by Carey Shunskis

ANDRÉ: ​But, but you talk about voice and agency. You know, let's talk about, you know, you
say kids want to express themselves. You talk about adolescent girls and that they are the focus
of your work. But in terms of focusing agency in terms of justice it should make no difference
whether the choir consists of young, young women or older men. The imaginative work that
you're doing and actually the amount of work that so many youth choirs are doing in this country
is not mirrored by the imaginative work that's happening with adult choirs and community
choruses. So, like what's happening? Why is, why is all this fantastic work happening with
choruses and so on? And then they go to and they go to, go to music school or they, they join
community choruses and they, they do the kind of canon that you say is linked to white
supremacy where's, where's, where's the missing link.

ALYSIA: ​Yeah, you're right, and you know the real answer is the children will lead us right? So
we are taking the lead um, from the kid. I had a conversation recently with a funder talking about
our new ,this new strategy that we're using and employing, and they were, you know, puzzled.
Anyone who is in schools right now knows that these programs already exist in public schools.
This is what’s happening. The best choral programs in America are already doing this. They're
turning over as much voice and agency to the kids in terms of repertoire selection, in terms of
elevating the music, right? My favorite coral teachers post the success criteria on the board.
That was all determined by the students and teacher together and say great get to work. Get in
your sections figure it out. Let me know what you need, right? And those kids sight read like
whips. They know the history. They know all the pieces. So this is already happening. We have
a lot of stuff to learn from the public schools and the public schools have a lot of stuff to learn
from the community arts programs as well. As these kids raise up they will, they will require
more. So this is what the funder asked me. Well, how are we preparing them for Conservatory?
We're not preparing them for 2020 Conservatory. We’re repairing them for 2028.

ANDRÉ: ​You're not preparing them for today. You're preparing them for tomorrow

ALYSIA: ​That’s right, they're not going to college today,

ANDRÉ: ​In fact, so many colleges are preparing them for yesterday.

ALYSIA: ​That’s right, that, that's the truth. And so the Conservatories, soon are going to get a
new kind of kid who is not motivated by technical ability? Their technical ability is driven by their
creative process. And that kid won't be able to be serviced by the thing, you know the same
way. To be honest, not to be honest. Obviously I'm 39. I was educated in a different way. I was
educated that technical ability comes first. Once we have that then we add the creativity and
expression. These kids are not willing to accept that. They're not going to go with that and we
have to follow them. So then the next realm of you know, 20 years community choirs. People
are going to drop out of your choir. If you don't give them an opportunity to create new work and
to talk about the big ideas, you don't make space in your rehearsal for discussion about the big
ideas that are being presented by this composer, and then for people to also in the rehearsal,
improvise or compose new melodies, put pieces together and elevate them together in groups.
If you don't give speed people that space, adults in 20 years, years, 15 years, they're going to
drop out and start their own choir, and your choir’s going to sink, but for now maybe it's fine, but,
but there's new kids that are coming up. You're right, it's a lot of this is bubbling from the youth
choirs again, because we were there with the kids, pounding their flesh right and they're saying I
want something more, I want something more than this. I want something more than to be a
receptacle to express someone else's ideas. I'm willing to listen to this composer's ideas, but
then I have a response. When do I give that? Oh OK, I guess here. I guess now. So we'll have
to be prepared for that, and I think there will be Conservatories that will take that on. You know,
Peabody Conservatory, I’m on faculty there as well. They're very responsive. They are looking
to see like, OK, the kids are changing. How can we be responsive to them? And there will be big
adjustments to make in the next decade. They'll be big, big leaps for everybody to make.

MUSIC:​ Bright Ideas - Shin Suzuma

EMILIE: ​So if you were going to write, you know the story of how, kind of choral music evolves
over the next 15 years? I'm wondering if you have, give us a sneak peek into like what your
imagination of that might be.

ALYSIA: ​Yes, my imagination would be more work right? Uhm, part of the reason that we are
also interested in original work is a lot of the music written for Treble Choir is about how the girls
are flowers and there's a bee. They don't want to sing that. These girls, no girl think of no girl.
Regardless, this is not.

ANDRÉ: ​Unrequited love. How 'bout that? Unrequited love.

ALYSIA: ​They don't want to be Flowers, they want to be mountains. They wanna be, uhm, they
wanna be fireworks. They want to be volcanoes. They want to be oceans. They're not interested
in being a raindrop. Girls are, girls are not interested. That's, it's an antiquated way to think
about being in the world. So they want to feel like they're connected to a community. They want
the music to reflect their ideas. So I would say my vision would be more children created works
being shared widely so that different choirs can sing like San Francisco Girlschoir, one of my
favorite choirs off on the other side of the world. Them having pieces that they share with our
girls, we, we perform those pieces and they perform are pieces and then we connect. Just
having that network of children creating music, that’s sung by children. I mean it sounds crazy,
but is it crazy? Making sure that that's the priority? Getting those voices and that will I think help.
It won't solve, but it will help when those children are adults, right?

ALYSIA: ​Being empowered while you're learning to be a performer that you're also a composer
is a whole lifting of the veil in terms of what the creative process can offer. So if we start telling
kids when they're 5, oh no, you said you're a musician, that means you write music, you perform
music, when you talk about music and you use, you connect with other people around you using
music that’s what a musician means you have to do all four of those things. You're 5 get to
work. If we start doing that instead of just consuming and presenting, right will have a whole
new group of people whose voices will be at the table when it's time to compose. So you have a
whole new thing. I don't know what will happen next after that.

EMILIE: ​That's amazing, I want to be a part of that world. Uhm, your vision is beautiful. I think
that we are just about out of time. I'm, I'm wondering, you know, just 'cause I really want to hear
your thoughts on this. If I can ask just one last question and it's really 'cause you talk about this
at various points in your materials about girl power. And so I just wonder if you could just like in
closing if you can, kind of. Share with us what that means. What does it mean? Girl power and
girl power in the context of Sister Cities.

ALYSIA: ​Absolutely. Very early on I learned that there is a special magic in sorority. There is a
special magic in women coming together to uplift other women. There is a special magic in
women telling each other their stories and there's a special strength in that circle and it's
different. I don't know if men haven't. I'm not sure. Hopefully you do. Hopefully you do. And so
my understanding of affinity spaces, spaces where people who share a common identity can
come together and rest and grow and connect and empower one another I think is so important,
and so Sister Cities is all about that. We have an amazing team of women who lead this work.
We have an amazing group of youth, both girls and gender nonconforming youth who come
together and just unite over the shared experiences and then help each other to stay strong as
we endure and push forward for more equity in our spaces.

ALYSIA: ​You talked briefly about the school to prison pipeline for girls. Black girls at the present
moment, it is the highest, the highest of space where for the school to prison pipeline where
that's showing up. Girls are suffering not because they deserve to suffer because life is hard,
'cause that's true too. Right, all life is hard for everybody. But girls are suffering specifically,
especially girls of color because of the way society has built these structures to their detriment.
So they are aware of it. Young people know that. They've seen 13th. They have Netflix
subscriptions too. They see how slowly we're moving to fix it, and they believe that they have
the power to make that transformation. So girl power is about really making a space and then
stepping back to be in the throng and seeing what comes out of it. I believe so strongly in the
power of collaboration. Anytime I have a good idea, I connect with other women who I believe
are also smart and collaborative and generous, and we elevate that idea to the oblivion where
my idea of barely recognizable, that's the best thing. That's the best part about the human
experience is to connect with other humans. So girl power is so important and acknowledging
the lived experiences of young people and helping them to amplify their voices is what we try to
do.

EMILIE: ​Right and it gets back to the music too, right. You know, the idea that women could be
confined to this identity of a flower with a bee you know, rather than being a volcano in an
earthquake. And all of that right, you know to kind of allow for space for all of those identities to
really thrive is the work of, of culturally responsive pedagogy.

MUSIC:​ ​I am - VOICES21C, produced by Carey Shunskis

EMILIE: ​André and I spoke with Alysia Lee in early July. You can learn more about Alysia’s
work with Sister Cities Girlchoir at ​http://sistercitiesgc.org/​ or on her website:
www.alysialee.com​.

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EMILIE:​ The Choral Commons Podcast is hosted by Emilie Amrein and André de Quadros,
produced by Emilie Amrein in partnership with Chorus America and the Eric Ericsson
International Choral Centre, and supported by listeners like you.

ANDRÉ: ​Additional institutional and creative partners include the Harvard Choral Program, St.
Olaf College, University of Hawai’i Choirs, the University of San Diego, Manado State University
Choir, Na Wai Chamber Choir, and Voices 21C.

EMILIE:​ If your organization would like to join our list of sponsors, please reach out to us at
thechoralcommons@gmail.com. Or consider joining our community of supporters on our
website, where you can schedule regular donations of 5 or 10 dollars a month to help us offset
the costs of producing these programs.

ANDRÉ:​ The Choral Commons aims to provide a space for choirs and conductors to envision
innovative and equity-centered practice. We produce podcasts and interactive webinars and
offer curated resources on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

EMILIE: ​We connect and engage community in meaningful dialogue on pedagogy and practice,
and incubate creative, artistic, and compassionate choral projects that empower choral music
organizations to work for a just and peaceful world.

EMILIE​: The music you heard throughout today's episode was performed by VOICES21C. This
improvisational choral meditation was created by members of VOICES 21C and friends of the
ensemble. The creative leader for this project was Carey Shunskis. You can listen to the full
recording and learn about their creative process on our website,
www.thechoralcommons.com/create.