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Category: roland
Tags: jd990, jv1080, jv2080, jv80, jv90, roland, xp30, xp50, xp60, xp80, xv5050,
xv5080
Super JV vs XV series
Following the JV/XP series were Roland’s XV series: 5080, 5050 and 3080.
XV-5080 is mixed content 32kHz and 44.1 kHz. I got this later confirmed by
Roland. (though some web pages list it as 32kHz ROM only, but this is not
true). I will focus now on XV-5050 and compare it with JV-1080. Some users
started complaining about the XV-5050 sounding a bit “thin”. There is some
truth in that but what i can tell in reply is that 5050 sounds more hi-fi.
Because of 44.1k sample content, some energy has been “lost” due to
wider frequency coverage. Patches played on 1080 and 5050 side by side
will sound different. This is a fact that i’ve verified myself. 5050 is more hi-fi
and has that extra sheen while 1080 is more darker and is a bit more mix
friendly when it comes to frequency and EQ. You will find some waveforms
more hi fi sounding in XV when compared to Super JV series.
It should be worth mentioning that 5050 has some sort of permanent HPF
filter at about 30 Hz, so you’ll definitely get a little bit less bass. But the
high freq response is just spectacular if compared to something like a JV-
1080. Especially when you start using the digital output and route it directly
into DAW, it’s a no match in crystal clear sound.
One thing that is very different on 5050 vs 1080 is the dynamics. For some
reason it seems that 5050 has some sort of compressor at its output. As a
result, some of the patches have less dynamics going on in them. This is
most obvious on layered sounds that have a lot of phasing between
oscillators going on. While the same patch on 1080 will produce more
differences in volume, on 5050 it is more constant. This can be good or bad,
depending what kind of sound you need. For movie/TV scores you would
probably want more dynamics going on, hence the 1080. And for dance
music, you would go 5050 since it delivers that straight – in your face sound
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– right out of the box, without need to work on dynamics. For the above
reasons 1080 definitely sounds more soft and gentle.
As of XV-5080, there does not seem to be any permanent high pass filtering
going on. I should also mention that 5080 has some really good converters
inside. Tested it side by side against XP-30 on the same patches and the
difference was quite noticeable in what appears to be a far greater stereo
field and definitely superior sonic quality of 5080 effects. I particularly
remember one preset called Letter From Pat. In fact if you have both units,
just load it and hear the difference for yourself. It’s day night difference in
favor of 5080.
There were some rumors on various forums that XV-5080 is 32kHz (thus
being able to play only up to 16kHz). This however is simply not true. We
will now take a look at a waveform spectra of a White Noise sample as
played from JD-990 and XV-5080. What we can clearly see is that not only
they are identical but they both go all the way up to 22kHz, which clearly
indicates 44.1k playback.
The Sound
There has been a lot of talk about difference in sound within units that
should be based on the same engine. We will here list the converters used
which might indicate why some minor sonic differences. There’s an old
rumor that the film guys prefer the sound of 1080 against newer the XV
series such as 5050. This is a bit complex matter since it involved dynamics
and not just frequency, and i have explained it in a chapter above. Let’s
now take a look at converters of JV and JD units (notice: XP is a JV with a
keyboard)
JV80 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM69P
JV90 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM69AU1
JV880 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM69AP (main out)*
JV1080 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit UPD63200GSE2
JV2080 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM69AU
XP30 32k sample rate DAC: 24bit AK4324
XP50 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit UPD63200GSE2
XP60 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM69AU
XP80 32k sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM69AU
JD800 44k1 sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM61
JD990 44k1 sample rate DAC: 18bit PCM61P
* uses UPD6376GSE2 for sub out
Some people claim they can hear the difference of JV-1080 vs. JV-2080.
Unfortunately i don’t have them side by side to verify this, but if someone
can, simply load the same patch, record it and send it to me or on the
Gearslutz forum and we will inspect it. The rumor is that 1080 sounds
“better”, whatever that means. Only thing i can confirm is that converters
on the JD-990 sound way better (more stereo width) than those on JV-1080.
In fact, it’s probably the best sounding synthesizer that Roland ever
designed. Hearing is believing and you should really give it a try if you
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didn’t by now. There’s a reason why JD-990 scores for much more than
2080, although from technical standpoint, 2080 offers much more
waveforms and has better mod matrix.
Some quick points: Over the years i’ve had following machines JD-990, JV-
1000, JV-1080, XP-50, XP-30, XV-5080, XV-5050. From first hand
experience: if you want a lot of sounds and not the quality, XP-30 is an
absolute winner. It you want max quality, then go either JD-990 or XV-5080.
If you care for the high sheen filter sound, go with JD-990 as it can pull out
the way XV-5080 can’t. But 5080 has much more waveforms (including
some from Vintage Expansion) and has far superior effects, filter dynamic
range and modulation engine (it features true matrix system). On top of
that it can be used as a sample player since it has a “S-760 mode” (though
that limits a lot of synthesis functions).
Compatibility
Even the latest XV-5080 has a full backward compatibility, all the way to the
JV-80. You can also load all of the patches from JV-80, JV-90 and JV-1000 into
JV-1080 and JV-2080. Just like you can load JV-1080 patches into the last of
the series XV-3080, XV-5080 and XV-5050. They are all full compatible with
only a few minor exceptions when it comes to waveforms. Even the old JV-
80 patch will sound identical if you properly convert it. Some correction in
resonance is needed because old models JV-80, JV-90 and JV-1000 had a
Soft and Hard resonance setting, next to the resonance amount. Because
JV-80 has two resonance settings, Soft and Hard. Their equivalent on Super
JV and XV is as following:
What applies to XV-5080 applies to all Super JV and XP series. I came with
this info by testing them side by side. This also gives you idea that the filter
in JV-1080 can go way beyond old JV in resonance power. This is not
surprising since it is a filter from the JD series. To cut the long story short,
whenever you load a JV-80 patch into Super JV or XV you will have to modify
the resonance value.
Patches
JV-1080 contains some of the JV-80 patches. JV-2080 contains all JV-1080
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patches plus a bank of additional ones. XV-5080 and 3080 contain all of the
JV-2080 patches, plus a few new banks. XV-5050 contains all XV-5080
patches plus a bank of additional Fantom patches (these are located in the
User area 1-128).
Destructive compression
With the Super JV series Roland used a destructive form of waveform
compression which is very similar to mp3. Those parts of the spectra that
are low in volume are simply erased. By observing same waveforms on JD-
990 which does not use this form of compression and comparing it to the
later JV series, it is easy to conclude that. Here is one example that clearly
demonstrates it.
The same waveform was chosen on JD-990 and XV-5080. Please ignore the
mirror effect label on the image, it relates to interpolation and that
shouldn’t concern us. If we look at the waveform from 5080 somewhere
around 15kHz we can clearly see a hole. There are a lot of such waveforms
in Super JV and XV series that have holes in them. Very similar how mp3
works. And as you can see there are no such holes in JD-990 which makes it
clear that JD-990 does not use destructive form of waveform compression. It
does use some other form though, but we will discuss that below.
Companding compression
Both the JD and Super JV series use a companding form of waveform
compression often expressed with 1:2 waveform ratio. Here is how it works.
Once the waveforms are sampled at the factory, they are being dynamically
compressed and converted to 8 bit. The reason why they are compressed
prior to that is to preserve low level information and somehow increase the
dynamic range of this 8 bit file. At that stage they are put into machine’s
ROM. Once the machine boots up it will load a waveform, convert it to 16 bit
and apply dynamic expansion. Essentially the same thing what a
compressor and expander that you have in your rack do. This way a
compression of 1:2 waveform ROM has been achieved. This dates back into
days when memory was very expensive, and manufacturers were looking
way to squeeze as much as possible into fixed ROM space. Companding was
on of the options where for every 16 bits of input, you would use only 8 bit
to store them, yet with some tricks “preserve” the data.
The question now arises: does that make Super JV and JD series 8-bit
machines? Well technically speaking no. These are not just plain 8 bit
samples in the ROM but 8-bit companded samples. It makes a difference,
because prior to being played, their original 16 bit dynamic range is
partially restored. It should also be noted that this is the stage were a lot of
“magic” is happening. By that i mean Roland’s (probably) custom
algorithms to make these waveforms sound so musical and rich in sound. If
it is the most simple μ-law companding algorithm, then hats off to Roland,
they did a pretty good job. I haven’t meet a person that doesn’t like the
sound of Super JV series and they would hardly believe these originate from
8 bit samples.
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History tree
Timeline:
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XP-80 (1996) = XP-50 with 320 x 80 dot LCD (better user interface), 4
aditional sliders, more outputs, arpeggiator, 76 key.
XP-60 (1998) = 61 key version of XP-80. It replaced the XP-50.
XP-30 (1999) = XP-60 with added patches (waveforms) from three
expansion boards (session, orchestral, techno), removed sequencer. By
number of factory installed waveforms, this is the most powerfull XP
and JV synth!
JV-1010 (1999 ) = JV-1080 in half rack module, session patches
(waveforms) added.
XV-5080 (2000) = another big step forward for Roland. 1083
waveforms, 128 polyphony, true stereo voice – each tone (T1-T4) can
be set as stereo (one waveform for the left, one for the right channel),
SCSI connection, sample load, up to 128 MB of RAM (SIMM), 5 effects
processors: 24-bit reverbs, COSM® modeling, RSS 3D effects plus
standard JV’s Chorus and Reverb/Delay.
XV-3080 (2000) = XV-5080 without sample playback option, without
COSM effects processor, smaller display.
XV-88 (2000) = keyboard version of XV-3080.
XV-5050 (2001) = XV-5080, without sample playback option, without
SR-JV80 boards slots, polyphony reduced to 64, very small display. Size
reduced to 1U, added USB support (editing via PC).
XV-2020 (2002) = XV-5050 in half rack module but no RSS effects, no
COSM efx, no SR-JV80 boards slots, sound editing only via PC.
Outro
This is a FAQ for all of the Roland JD, JV, XP and XV series. If you have any
questions, please ask them and i will add them to this article.
Previous Post
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Waldorf Streichfett Demo (making of)
Comments (26)
Ryan
June 30, 2014 at 10:41
Dear Don,
I recently got a JD990 and after owning a JV2080 and it blew
my mind. To my ears the 2080 is a somewhat flat and uninspiring sounding
synth and now I have the JD it’s just killed any love I had for my JV.
I used to think there was something peculiar with the 2080 and you article
has justified my curiosities.
My question now is do you think the SR-JV80 expansion boards sound better
in the JD990 than the JV series and how so? What boards other than vintage
synth are the best for the JD990? Finally are there sysex banks available for
all the boards anywhere online?
Thanks for your site, it’s great, found you on gearsluts.
Best Wishes,
Ryan
Reply
Don Solaris
August 4, 2014 at 18:26
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Reply
Michele Luppi
August 10, 2014 at 13:00
Hi Don!
I’ve read all I could about you and I must say I’m glad there
are people like you around. Music needs competence!
I’m a singer/former keyboardist trying to realize what happened over the last
20 years or so. I started with R. Alpha Juno 2 (though I was 13 in ’87), I love
Analog and the first pure digital stuff. Can’t help it: I love my JD-990, D-550
and MKS-70, can’t dig many of JV, JX and so on. Here’s my question. Recently
I fixed all my old gear and bought some 80’s Synths I could not afford when
they came out. When I think of my first experience in a real Studio using S-
770 I remember the clearness and pureness (but still warm) sounds coming
out of it. My guts never lied so far… So… Can the XV-5080 be comparable
soundwiae to the S-770 or did I just fell in love with those 80’s converters?
Thank you.
Michele Luppi from Italy
Reply
Don Solaris
August 12, 2014 at 18:54
Reply
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Michele Luppi
August 15, 2014 at 08:50
Well Don, THANK YOU!!!! You actually
answered me and I’m VERY happy to share
your thought… I needed the best opinion
and you gave it to me! I will become a member of gearslutz
for sure… If I ever find a S-770 (mint conditions) I’ll put your
name on my special thanks in the booklet of the Album!
M
Reply
Joe F
September 29, 2014 at 11:24
Reply
Don Solaris
September 30, 2014 at 11:01
Reply
Joe F
October 13, 2014 at 15:06
Thanks for the reply.
In terms of converters if I go with the 5080,
do you know if there are any in particular that compliment
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Reply
Phil
October 2, 2014 at 12:05
Reply
Don Solaris
December 2, 2014 at 21:13
Reply
Rafael Marfil
November 25, 2014 at 18:11
Hi! Thanks for your great article, it has been very helpful! I
have a question, does the JV-880 includes the
waveforms/patches of the U-220? I really like the sound of
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the U-220, particularly the drums, but I would rather buy a model that has
resonant filters. Thanks!
Reply
Don Solaris
December 2, 2014 at 21:04
It does include some of the waveforms, but not all.
Neither it sounds as good as U-220.
Reply
Llest
December 24, 2014 at 23:39
Hi!
Thanks for the article!
How easy or complicated it is to upload samples to xv-5080 nowadays? It
looks like it would be cheaper to buy a SmartMedia USB reader and a 128mb
card than a SCSI/USB adapter. Any suggestions or thoughts?
Have a nice holiday and a happy new year!
Reply
Don Solaris
February 4, 2015 at 22:56
Reply
Roger
February 6, 2015 at 01:18
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Reply
Don Solaris
February 15, 2015 at 16:42
Reply
Jd800
April 5, 2015 at 02:06
Reply
Don Solaris
April 26, 2015 at 12:15
Reply
Chris
April 11, 2015 at 00:48
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has the same presets as the XP60. As you likely know when you save a song
in the XP it will save the sounds and the song so that no matter what
performance patch you have up, it will instantly adjust the tracks to the
patches you used in the song. When you check the sequence under
microscope however, you can’t see any patch changes. So when I load the
same song into the MC80, it doesn’t automatically change the patches in the
performance. So I’m wondering if you know how to extract those patch
change commands from the XP’s sequencer so that the MC80 will make the
same changes when it plays back the song on the XV 5080. Make sense?
Reply
Don Solaris
April 26, 2015 at 12:12
You have to save ALL the sounds and ALL the
performances. Then when you load sequence in
MC80, just select the same performance on XV-
5080 and it should work.
Reply
Philip
April 13, 2015 at 23:59
Reply
Don Solaris
April 26, 2015 at 12:10
Yeah!
Reply
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Harry S Morgan
June 27, 2015 at 06:25
Dear Don
First a big thanks for sharing your impressive in depth
expertise here, its been a really great source of informed
knowledge for myself (and Im sure countless other synth users).
I am contacting you because I twas hoping you wouldn’t mind assisting with
an issue that, having looked on the forum & other places, has come up
before.
My progress has been roland u-220 (yes im that old!) – jv 1080 then jd 990
now a recently purchased xv5080. Unfortunately as a (very!) amateur
musician I can’t really justify keeping both the 990 (with vintage card) and
the XV (which I plan to ge the ultimate keys card for). Like several others the
forum who have asked similar question, is there anyway I can recreate the
extra JD vintage card patches (or pretty close anyway) with the xv (with the
vintage card in the xv)
Looking through old forum threads i can see you yourself said the xv does
have the basic waveforms and some of the effects in the XV but of course
not actual access to the patches.
I can see you’ve also have created a bit of conversion guide to getting jd
patches on a jv/xv.
If i understand correctly, its been discussed that it might be possible to
recreate them by looking at the 990 patch settings in sounddriver & then
doings it manually with the xv (& them presumably saving that patch on the
memory card in he xv etc) but I thought you may have some advice on the
feasibility of this or if there is a more efficient way etc.
I hope Ive explained what Im after ok and would appreciate any assistance
you can provide.
cheers
Harry S
Reply
Don Solaris
June 30, 2015 at 21:07
displays.
I sold my XV-5080, and XV-5050 which i also had so can’t do this
job. Now I only have JD-990 and JV-1080.
Reply
Harry S Morgan
July 1, 2015 at 08:25
Hi Don
Thanks for your reply, its still a help to know
that it may be possible within the
capabilities of the XV which I wasnt 100% sure of. Do you
think using soundiver would make it easier (I dont know as i
dont have the program so never used it) or it could be done
just by using the screens of the individual jd/xv.Lastly a
completely different question i see you have a sample pack
for the mc909 – i happen to have an mc808 do you know if
there is any difference in the way these handle samples
(from what Ive read id don’t think so?)
thanks for your time.
Reply
Don Solaris
July 1, 2015 at 09:17
I only edit JD from the front panel (it’s
easy and fast once get used to). I’ve
never used an editor for JD series so
can’t confirm. But i am sure it can be faster with
editor when you list all parameters at once (on a
large screen) then copy side by side. Sound Diver is
dead software, no longer supported. Beware: if you
start doing the copy process and then in the middle
(ie after one week of work) you realize some patches
simply do not sound the same – can be frustrating!
So i’d start with 3-4 most favorite patches!!!! If they
work then i would expand to another 5-6. Then i
would slowly add others, less important. Else, you
might end up in a lot of FRUSTRATION! Trust me,
been there. MC-808: never had one, so don’t know
any details.
Reply
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